Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => Sicilian Style => Topic started by: norma427 on October 17, 2012, 10:41:36 AM

Title: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 17, 2012, 10:41:36 AM
This pizza was made with ideas from two different men named Bill.  Bill from Trenton had tried the Carmelina San Marzano tomatoes and sent me some.  Bill from Trenton, also told me to try his dough recipe he used with the Carmelina San Marzanos.  Bill/SFNM also provided a great video for using the Carmelina San Marzanos to make a great sauce, which I posted about at Reply 3 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21434.msg216282.html#msg216282  I used Bill/SFNM guidelines for making the tomato sauce using the Carmelina San Marzanos.  I used kosher salt, black pepper, sugar and wine vinegar and thought the tomato sauce turned out very tasty and fresh when tasted.  The sauce was made Monday evening. 

I used Bill’s from Trenton recipe for the dough for this pizza.  I really like to see baker’s percents for all the ingredients when trying to make dough in baker’s percents, but thought I will give Bill’s from Trenton a try just like he gave it to me.  Bill used a 13” steel pan and I knew I only had a 12” black buster steel pan to try, but thought that still would be okay and my pizza would just be a little thicker.  I also looked at the salt amount Bill gave me and thought that sounded like a lot of salt, even though I didn’t really know the baker’s percent of the salt.  I used Kosher salt.  I also looked at the amount of water to the flour and thought this dough was going to be sticky.  I mixed the dough in my Kitchen Aid mixer and the dough was sticky.   I gave the dough some stretch and folds and it was still sticky, so I just balled and oil the dough ball.  The dough was mixed late Monday evening.  Bill said he uses the dough in the same day and he rolls out his dough with a rolling pin, then docks, lets it proof, then parbakes before adding the cheese and sauce.  I decided to just oil the steel pan with corn oil, then let the dough proof a little.  The dough was brushed with herb garlic olive oil while it was proofing.  The Carmelina San Marzano sauce was then applied.  Next AMPI mild cheddar and a blend of mozzarellas were applied (both Foremost Farms).  The top was dusted with Greek oregano and some drizzles of  Caremlina sauce.  Vermont smoked pepperoni was sliced and applied last.

The pizza turned out very tasty, with a good taste in the crust and also a very light crust.  The taste of the Carmelina San Marzano sauce went very well with this pizza. The Vermont smoked pepperoni was also a great addition in Steve’s and my opinion.  Steve and I enjoyed this pizza very much.  I was surprised that the crust didn’t taste salty at all.  The crispy caramelized edges was delicious.   :D

If anyone is interested, this is Bill from Trenton’s dough recipe.  He said to use high gluten flour.  I used Kyrol flour.

8.8 ounces flour
6 ¼ ounces water
½ teaspoon IDY
1 teaspoon salt

Thanks to both Bill’s for the tasty pizza Steve and I enjoyed.   ;D

I would like to convert the recipe Bill gave me for my 12”x17” steel pan, but don’t know how to go about doing those calculations.  Bill told me he found the formulation he used on the Buddy’s or Shield’s thread, but I quickly looked though it and can’t find the recipe Bill used. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 17, 2012, 10:45:11 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 17, 2012, 10:46:15 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 17, 2012, 10:47:32 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: weemis on October 17, 2012, 01:01:05 PM
Nice! Now sell each slice for "2 Bills" and you're set!  :-D
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Ev on October 17, 2012, 02:14:16 PM
Nice! Now sell each slice for "2 Bills" and you're set!  :-D

 :-D :-D

 It really was a good pizza, I must admit!  ;D
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 17, 2012, 05:02:34 PM
Nice! Now sell each slice for "2 Bills" and you're set!  :-D


 :-D :-D :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 17, 2012, 05:04:36 PM

 
It really was a good pizza, I must admit!  ;D


Steve,

Thanks!  :)  If I get the formulation figured out for a larger pizza in my bigger steel pans, maybe we will have a bigger one for next week.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 18, 2012, 08:44:23 PM
I sure don’t have any idea if this formulation figured out on the expanded dough calculation tool is right or not, for Bill’s pizza I made on Tuesday, because I am not sure how to do the calculations, but this is what I got to try for next Tuesday.  I used my standard Sicilian formulation as a base and just went from there.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on October 18, 2012, 08:54:17 PM
Norma,

Are the flour and water quantities given in Bill's recipe by weight or by volume? And does he use regular or Kosher salt?

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 18, 2012, 09:41:16 PM
Norma,

Are the flour and water quantities given in Bill's recipe by weight or by volume? And does he use regular or Kosher salt?

Peter

Peter,

The flour and water quantities Bill gave to me were in weight.  He used a 13" steel pan, but I used a 12" steel pan.  I want to use my 17"x12" steel pan for my next attempt and have my normal TF of 0.153 I usually use for my Sicilian pies. Bill said he used 8.8 ounces of high gluten flour and 6 1/4 ounces of water.  I found I had to add a little more flour to his recipe, to make it manageable.  I am not sure what the hydration was of Bill's recipe, but it seemed about 70% hydration to me, or a little higher.  I think Bill uses Kosher salt, or sea salt, but I am not sure.

I guess I messed everything up in doing the calculations.

Norma  
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on October 18, 2012, 09:59:34 PM
I guess I messed everything up in doing the calculations.

Norma,

Don't worry about it. We will straighten things out.

Peter

Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 18, 2012, 10:06:29 PM
Norma,

Don't worry about it. We will straighten things out.

Peter



Thanks Peter!  :)  I just called Bill and he used regular salt.  I used kosher salt when I used his recipe.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on October 19, 2012, 10:01:41 AM
Norma,

I did some calculations and used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with the dough formulations set forth below:

Trenton Bill's Original Dough Recipe
High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (71.023%):
IDY (0.60369%):
Salt (2.2372%):
Total (173.86389%):
249.48 g  |  8.8 oz | 0.55 lbs
177.19 g  |  6.25 oz | 0.39 lbs
1.51 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
433.76 g | 15.3 oz | 0.96 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for a single 13" round pizza, with a corresponding thickness factor of 15.3/(3.14159 x 6.5 x 6.5) = 0.11527; no bowl residue compensation

Norma's Modification of Trenton Bill's Original Dough Recipe
Kyrol High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (71.023%):
IDY (0.60369%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.924%):
Total (173.55069%):
249.47 g  |  8.8 oz | 0.55 lbs
177.18 g  |  6.25 oz | 0.39 lbs
1.51 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
4.8 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
432.96 g | 15.27 oz | 0.95 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for a single 12" round pizza, with a corresponding thickness factor of 15.27/(3.14159 x 6.5 x 6.5) = 0.13504; no bowl residue compensation

Norma's 12" x 17" Rectangular Pan Version of Trenton Bill's Original Dough Recipe
Kyrol High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (71.023%):
IDY (0.60369%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (2.2372%):
Total (173.86389%):
391.1 g  |  13.8 oz | 0.86 lbs
277.77 g  |  9.8 oz | 0.61 lbs
2.36 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.78 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
8.75 g | 0.31 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.82 tsp | 0.61 tbsp
679.99 g | 23.99 oz | 1.5 lbs | TF = 0.1175754
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.11527; bowl residue compensation = 2%

I will leave to you to make any further adjustments, such as using less salt (I assume Morton's Kosher salt).

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 19, 2012, 12:52:30 PM
Norma,

I did some calculations and used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with the dough formulations set forth below:

Trenton Bill's Original Dough Recipe
High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (71.023%):
IDY (0.60369%):
Salt (2.2372%):
Total (173.86389%):
249.48 g  |  8.8 oz | 0.55 lbs
177.19 g  |  6.25 oz | 0.39 lbs
1.51 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
433.76 g | 15.3 oz | 0.96 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for a single 13" round pizza, with a corresponding thickness factor of 15.3/(3.14159 x 6.5 x 6.5) = 0.11527; no bowl residue compensation

Norma's Modification of Trenton Bill's Original Dough Recipe
Kyrol High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (71.023%):
IDY (0.60369%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.924%):
Total (173.55069%):
249.47 g  |  8.8 oz | 0.55 lbs
177.18 g  |  6.25 oz | 0.39 lbs
1.51 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.5 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
4.8 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
432.96 g | 15.27 oz | 0.95 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for a single 12" round pizza, with a corresponding thickness factor of 15.27/(3.14159 x 6.5 x 6.5) = 0.13504; no bowl residue compensation

Norma's 12" x 17" Rectangular Pan Version of Trenton Bill's Original Dough Recipe
Kyrol High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (71.023%):
IDY (0.60369%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (2.2372%):
Total (173.86389%):
391.1 g  |  13.8 oz | 0.86 lbs
277.77 g  |  9.8 oz | 0.61 lbs
2.36 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.78 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
8.75 g | 0.31 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.82 tsp | 0.61 tbsp
679.99 g | 23.99 oz | 1.5 lbs | TF = 0.1175754
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.11527; bowl residue compensation = 2%

I will leave to you to make any further adjustments, such as using less salt (I assume Morton's Kosher salt).

Peter


Peter,

Thanks so much for doing the calculations and using the expanded dough calculating tool for Trenton Bill’s Original Dough Recipe, Norma Modification of Trenton Bill’s Original Dough Recipe and Norma’s 12”x17” Rectangular Pan Version of Trenton Bills’s Original Dough Recipe.  I see I was far off I was when I tried to do a formulation. 

I will try the formulation you set-forth for me for my rectangular steel pan for this coming Tuesday, but will adjust the TF to my last attempt.  If I then want a higher TF it should be easy for me to change it now.

I appreciate all of your help!  :)

Norma 
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on October 19, 2012, 01:10:13 PM
Norma,

Since you mentioned in the opening post that you wanted to make a 12" x 17" version of Trenton Bill's dough recipe, I went with his thickness factor. However, if you want to go with the thickness factor that you used, 0.13504, then the dough formulation looks like this:

Kyrol High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (71.023%):
IDY (0.60369%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (2.2372%):
Total (173.86389%):
458.18 g  |  16.16 oz | 1.01 lbs
325.41 g  |  11.48 oz | 0.72 lbs
2.77 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.92 tsp | 0.31 tbsp
10.25 g | 0.36 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.14 tsp | 0.71 tbsp
796.61 g | 28.1 oz | 1.76 lbs | TF = 0.1377408
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.13504; bowl residue compensation = 2%

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 19, 2012, 01:26:38 PM
Norma,

Since you mentioned in the opening post that you wanted to make a 12" x 17" version of Trenton Bill's dough recipe, I went with his thickness factor. However, if you want to go with the thickness factor that you used, 0.13504, then the dough formulation looks like this:

Kyrol High-Gluten Flour (100%):
Water (71.023%):
IDY (0.60369%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (2.2372%):
Total (173.86389%):
458.18 g  |  16.16 oz | 1.01 lbs
325.41 g  |  11.48 oz | 0.72 lbs
2.77 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.92 tsp | 0.31 tbsp
10.25 g | 0.36 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.14 tsp | 0.71 tbsp
796.61 g | 28.1 oz | 1.76 lbs | TF = 0.1377408
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.13504; bowl residue compensation = 2%

Peter


Wow, Peter!  You sure did that fast.  :o  I am not sure which one I will try now, but will think about it.

Thanks again!

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 22, 2012, 11:13:01 AM
I used the formulation Peter set-forth for Norma’s 12”x17” Rectangular Pan Version of Trenton Bill’s Original Dough Recipe and mixed the dough this morning about an hour ago. 

I used a little different technique in mixing the dough so the dough might not be as sticky.  I had added the Morton’s Kosher salt to the water first, then slowly mixed the flour (with the IDY mixed in the flour) and rested the dough mixture a little before adding more flour.  It seemed like the dough mixed better that way and didn’t seem as sticky as last week.  The final dough temperature was 75.0 degrees F.  I placed the poppy seeds on the dough ball to see how much it ferments until I try to make the pizza tomorrow.  I want to see if a higher hydration dough ferments faster than a lower hydration dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 24, 2012, 08:25:51 PM
The “Two Bill’s” pizza really turned out well this week.  I don’t know if it was from having accurate weights to follow, or a combination of that and the mixing method I used.  I never knew Kyrol flour could make such a tender and moist pizza.  ;D The crumb just melted in my mouth and it reminded me of my best Pizzarium attempt, in that the crumb was springy and light.  Of course Bill’s method for preparing the Carmelina San Marzano’s tomatoes, also made this pizza very good.  The Vermont Smoked pepperoni didn’t hurt either. 

For the “Two Bill’s” pizza the AMPI mild cheddar (mostly all cheddar) was used with a blend of my two regular mozzarellas.  Greek oregano was sprinkled on the top before the bake.  I think another thing that made the “Two Bill’s” pizza so good was when I baked the apple wood bacon, I used my blackbuster round steel pan to catch the drippings (fat) from the apple wood smoked bacon and then saved the fat drippings to grease the 12”x17” steel pan.  The fat drippings were clear. 

I like to watch how a dough ball ferments, and as can been seen after “Two Bill’s” dough ball fermented for two days how it changed in being a rough looking dough ball into a smooth looking dough ball. 

Peter,

Thanks for doing the formulation for me to follow. 

Maybe I should have posted these pizzas under the Sicilian thread, but didn’t know what kind of pizza I was going to get when I first started this thread.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 24, 2012, 08:28:46 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 24, 2012, 08:52:07 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 24, 2012, 08:53:25 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 24, 2012, 08:54:38 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 24, 2012, 08:56:04 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on October 24, 2012, 09:16:00 PM
Norma,

It looks like you have another winning formulation.

In case you are interested, the spacing between the two poppy seeds suggests that the dough almost tripled in volume. No doubt the high hydration and the large amount of yeast caused the dough to ferment more quickly. By any chance did you note the time that you made the dough and the time you took it out of your cooling unit, or was the second photo showing the final spacing of the poppy seeds taken after the temper period?

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 24, 2012, 09:55:13 PM
Norma,

It looks like you have another winning formulation.

In case you are interested, the spacing between the two poppy seeds suggests that the dough almost tripled in volume. No doubt the high hydration and the large amount of yeast caused the dough to ferment more quickly. By any chance did you note the time that you made the dough and the time you took it out of your cooling unit, or was the second photo showing the final spacing of the poppy seeds taken after the temper period?

Peter

Peter,

Thanks to you and the two Bill’s I do have another formulation I really like.  Who would have thought that just Kyrol flour with more IDY and a higher hydration would make such a good pizza.  The one good part it that is only was a one day cold ferment too.  I think that is why it is fun to experiment, because I never know what will happen. 

The dough was mixed about 10:00 AM on Monday and the final dough temperature was 75.0 degrees F.  It then was put into my home fridge and cooled down and then was taken to market and was placed in my deli case until Tuesday.  The “Two Bill’s dough ball was already tempered at room temperature for about 1 ½ hrs. when I took the spacing of the poppy seeds.  The dough was then only left to temper in the steel pan for a little over an hour on top of the deck oven.  It is warmer there and that is usually were I let doughs temper in pans.

Thanks for telling me that the spacing between the two poppy seeds suggest that the dough almost tripled in volume and it probably was from the high hydration and the large amount of yeast causing the dough to ferment more quickly. 

I didn’t take any picture of the dough and time it came out of the cooling unit.  Should I do that for next week?

I think the formulation you set-forth for me is a keeper, and probably will replace my Sicilian pie I have been working on.

This pan pizza was super easy.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on October 24, 2012, 10:13:12 PM
I didn’t take any picture of the dough and time it came out of the cooling unit.  Should I do that for next week?

Norma,

Yes, I would suggest that you do that. That way, you will be able to modify the amount of yeast should you decide at some point to use a longer or shorter fermentation window. Likewise if you want to use a different fermentation temperature.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 24, 2012, 10:18:47 PM
Norma,

Yes, I would suggest that you do that. That way, you will be able to modify the amount of yeast should you decide at some point to use a longer or shorter fermentation window. Likewise if you want to use a different fermentation temperature.

Peter

Peter,

I can understand why it would be important to do that.  I will take another picture this coming week of the spacing of the poppy seeds when the dough ball comes out of the cooling unit.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on October 25, 2012, 10:22:07 AM
Norma,

Since you mentioned that Trenton Bill told you that the recipe he recommended to you came from the Buddy's thread, I decided to see if I could find it. I could not. However, it is possible that Trenton Bill's recipe is a composite of several recipes and ideas from the Buddy's thread. For example, the most popular Buddy's clone dough recipe on the Buddy's thread is the one by PizzaHog at Reply 199 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg92963.html#msg92963. Like PizzaHog's recipe, Trenton Bill also uses only flour, water, yeast and salt. Trenton Bill's thickness factor is slightly less than what PizzaHog uses but it is only slightly different. Trenton Bill decided to make a round pizza instead of a rectangular one but there have been other members who have also made round clones of the Buddy's pizzas. One place where Trenton Bill seems to have departed most notably from the Buddy's clone dough recipes on the Buddy's thread is that he uses a lower hydration value, 71%. However, I found an old post of mine at Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795 where I suggested in the last paragraph that a hydration value of around 70% be used for a Buddy's clone. I came to that value based on my research on the Jet's dough recipe where I concluded that a hydration value of greater than 70% would be too high for a commercial operation, especially one where young workers of low skill levels might be assigned the tasks of making the dough and panning the dough balls to make pizzas. You will also note that in Reply 318 referenced above I suggested a value for the IDY of 0.60%. That is the value that Trenton Bill uses.

I think that what you and Trenton Bill have done is to make clones of the Buddy's pizzas. It's even possible that your Buddy's clones are closer to the real thing than what has been posted by others on the Buddy's thread. I say this because of the lower hydration value as mentioned above. Unfortunately, we have never been able to get enough information on the real Buddy's pizzas or the Buddy's dough to be able to say one way or the other. I have been waiting for someone to get a typical Buddy's dough ball and weigh it for us to see if our dough formulations are even close from a dough weight standpoint.

Maybe sometime you can ask Trenton Bill where he found his recipe or how he cobbled together various ideas to come up with his recipe. But, in the meantime, I have decided to move this thread to the Sicilian Style board. You might even want to reference this thread at the Buddy's thread in case our members who are intimately familiar with the Buddy's pizzas want to attempt your modified recipe to see if it is close to the real thing. Of course, they will have to discount the fact that you and Trenton Bill used San Marzano tomatoes instead of the Stanislaus-type tomatoes that Buddy's apparently uses.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 25, 2012, 11:18:30 AM
Norma,

Since you mentioned that Trenton Bill told you that the recipe he recommended to you came from the Buddy's thread, I decided to see if I could find it. I could not. However, it is possible that Trenton Bill's recipe is a composite of several recipes and ideas from the Buddy's thread. For example, the most popular Buddy's clone dough recipe on the Buddy's thread is the one by PizzaHog at Reply 199 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg92963.html#msg92963. Like PizzaHog's recipe, Trenton Bill also uses only flour, water, yeast and salt. Trenton Bill's thickness factor is slightly less than what Pizzahog uses but it is only slightly different. Trenton Bill decided to make a round pizza instead of a rectangular one but there have been other members who have also made round clones of the Buddy's pizzas. One place where Trenton Bill seems to have departed most notably from the Buddy's clone dough recipes on the Buddy's thread is that he uses a lower hydration value, 71%. However, I found an old post of mine at Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795 where I suggested in the last paragraph that a hydration value of around 70% be used for a Buddy's clone. I came to that value based on my research on the Jet's dough recipe where I concluded that a hydration value of greater than 70% would be too high for a commercial operation, especially one where young workers of low skill levels might be assigned the tasks of making the dough and panning the dough balls to make pizzas. You will also note that in Reply 318 referenced above I suggested a value for the IDY of 0.60%. That is the value that Trenton Bill uses.

I think that what you and Trenton Bill have done is to make clones of the Buddy's pizzas. It's even possible that your Buddy's clones are closer to the real thing than what has been posted by others on the Buddy's thread. I say this because of the lower hydration value as mentioned above. Unfortunately, we have never been able to get enough information on the real Buddy's pizzas or the Buddy's dough to be able to say one way or the other. I have been waiting for someone to get a typical Buddy's dough ball and weigh it for us to see if our dough formulations are even close from a dough weight standpoint.

Maybe sometime you can ask Trenton Bill where he found his recipe or how he cobbled together various ideas to come up with his recipe. But, in the meantime, I have decided to move this thread to the Sicilian Style board. You might even want to reference this thread at the Buddy's thread in case our members who are intimately familiar with the Buddy's pizzas want to attempt your modified recipe to see if it is close to the real thing. Of course, they will have to discount the fact that you and Trenton Bill used San Marzano tomatoes instead of the Stanislaus-type tomatoes that Buddy's apparently uses.

Peter


Peter,

I am glad I wasn’t the only one that couldn’t find the recipe Trenton Bill told me about.  I did ask him what Reply number it was, but he couldn’t give me that information and only said he found it on the Buddy’s/Shield thread. 

I have seen PizzaHog’s recipes and had thought about trying that different times, but never got around to trying his recipe at Reply 199.

I didn’t notice what you had posted in Reply 318.  Maybe Trenton Bill used your ideas, but I sure don’t know.  I will ask Trenton Bill though. 

It is interesting to know that you might think what Trenton Bill and I have done is maybe make clones of Buddy’s pizza.  I hope someday someone can purchase a typical Buddy’s dough ball and weigh it for us to see if our dough formulations are even close from a dough weight standpoint. 

Do you think I should make a thicker version of the formulation you set-forth for next week?  If you do, what TF do you suggest and should I just bake in my small 8”x10” steel pan? 

I can post a link to this thread to the Buddy’s thread and maybe someone might try it eventually to see if it is anything like a Buddy‘s pizza.  I guess I will need brick cheese next and also apply the sauce differently.  I have to read over that whole thread again, because I can’t recall everything that is posted there. 

Thanks for moving my thread to the appropriate board.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 25, 2012, 12:54:08 PM

Maybe sometime you can ask Trenton Bill where he found his recipe or how he cobbled together various ideas to come up with his recipe.

Peter


Peter,

I called Trenton Bill and talked to him again and asked him where the Reply number was where he found his recipe for the Sicilian pizza.  He just looked a little while ago and said the post is at Reply 63 by PizzaHog http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg68444.html#msg68444

PizzaHog posted in Reply 63 that if he understood the math correctly the recipe in volume measurements for the water would be about 90% hydration, but I don’t think that is correct, although I don’t know.

Trenton Bill told me he weighed out the flour and water from Pizza Hog’s recipe and then gave me the numbers I used in my first attempt for a Sicilian pizza.  The IDY and salt are the same amount as Trenton Bill had given me.

Trenton Bill never ate a Buddy’s pizza just like I haven’t, but Trenton Bill really liked PizzaHog’s recipe.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on October 25, 2012, 03:05:11 PM
Do you think I should make a thicker version of the formulation you set-forth for next week?  If you do, what TF do you suggest and should I just bake in my small 8”x10” steel pan? 

Norma,

I don't see any need to change the thickness factor value at this point. The thickness factor values we have seen thus far are experimental values anyway.

The 8" x 10" pan size is one of the pan sizes that Buddy's uses. If you wish, you can use the last dough formulation you used and modify it for the 8"x10" pan size by using the expanded dough calculating tool.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on October 25, 2012, 03:12:48 PM
Peter,

I called Trenton Bill and talked to him again and asked him where the Reply number was where he found his recipe for the Sicilian pizza.  He just looked a little while ago and said the post is at Reply 63 by PizzaHog http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg68444.html#msg68444

PizzaHog posted in Reply 63 that if he understood the math correctly the recipe in volume measurements for the water would be about 90% hydration, but I don’t think that is correct, although I don’t know.

Trenton Bill told me he weighed out the flour and water from Pizza Hog’s recipe and then gave me the numbers I used in my first attempt for a Sicilian pizza.  The IDY and salt are the same amount as Trenton Bill had given me.

Trenton Bill never ate a Buddy’s pizza just like I haven’t, but Trenton Bill really liked PizzaHog’s recipe.

Norma

Norma,

I had seen PizzaHog's dough formulation at Reply 63 but calculated that the hydration value was around 92.4%. The entire formulation looks like the following:

100% Flour
92.36% Water
0.688% IDY
2.55% Salt
Total dough ball weight = 15.096 ounces
TF= 0.10783

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 25, 2012, 03:28:13 PM
Norma,

I had seen PizzaHog's dough formulation at Reply 63 but calculated that the hydration value was around 92.4%. The entire formulation looks like the following:

100% Flour
92.36% Water
0.688% IDY
2.55% Salt
Total dough ball weight = 15.096 ounces
TF= 0.10783

Peter


Peter,

I guess either Trenton Bills’s math is like mine, or somehow when he measured the recipe out from PizzaHog there might have been a mistake in weighing.  Anyway, your interpreting of what we did make a great pizza. 

Maybe you can also read minds, in addition to all you know about making pizzas.

Wow, I don’t think I could work with 92.36% hydration in a pizza dough.   :o

Norma 
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 27, 2012, 08:29:07 AM
I have a question to ask and don’t know why I didn’t think about it before.  I went on the expanded dough calculation tool and typed in a 10”x8” pan (when it said enter pan’s dimensions) and used PizzaHog’s TF of 0.1218 that he used at Reply 199 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg92963.html#msg92963
I did print out a sheet from the expanded dough calculation tool, with PizzaHog’s TF, but used the rest of formulation Peter set-forth for me.  Now I measured what I thought is a 10”x8” steel pan and the top measurements of the steel pan are right, but the bottom measurements are a lot less (due to the sloping sides on the steel pan).  Do I need to change the formulation now?  I am a bit confused about that.  Maybe I have been using a wrong TF for my bigger steel pan too.

I would like to try and make the pizza in my home oven tomorrow, or Monday.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on October 27, 2012, 09:34:14 AM
Norma,

When Mike (Boy His Car) and I designed the expanded dough calculating tool we did not attempt to provide for pans with sloping sides. We did that for the deep-dish dough calculating tool but that was because the dough is pushed up the sides of the pans by specific amounts, and the numbers would be different for the two types of pans (round) that are commonly used to make the deep-dish style of pizza.

The practice I have seen among manufacturers of sloping sided pans is that the pans are rated by the top dimensions of the pans, not the bottom dimensions of the pans. The pans that Buddy's uses, including the 8" x 10" pan, are sloping sided pans. We don't know the weight of the dough ball that Buddy's uses for the 8" x 10" pan, so we can't do any calculations to determine the thickness factor they use. If we knew the dough ball weight, we wouldn't even have to know the thickness factor. We would only need to know that if we wanted or needed to use different pan sizes.

In your case, if the differences between the top and bottom dimensions are slight, then I wouldn't worry about it too much since the differences in the ingredients quantities are likely to be minimal. If, however, the top and bottom dimensions are materially different, then you can average the top and bottom dimensions and use those averages in the expanded dough calculating tool. If we ever learn how much dough Buddy's uses for one of its pans, we will be able to correlate it with one of the sets of dimensions (top or bottom) and use that as the standard, even for other sizes of pans.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 27, 2012, 10:17:27 AM
Norma,

When Mike (Boy His Car) and I designed the expanded dough calculating tool we did not attempt to provide for pans with sloping sides. We did that for the deep-dish dough calculating tool but that was because the dough is pushed up the sides of the pans by specific amounts, and the numbers would be different for the two types of pans (round) that are commonly used to make the deep-dish style of pizza.

The practice I have seen among manufacturers of sloping sided pans is that the pans are rated by the top dimensions of the pans, not the bottom dimensions of the pans. The pans that Buddy's uses, including the 8" x 10" pan, are sloping sided pans. We don't know the weight of the dough ball that Buddy's uses for the 8" x 10" pan, so we can't do any calculations to determine the thickness factor they use. If we knew the dough ball weight, we wouldn't even have to know the thickness factor. We would only need to know that if we wanted or needed to use different pan sizes.

In your case, if the differences between the top and bottom dimensions are slight, then I wouldn't worry about it too much since the differences in the ingredients quantities are likely to be minimal. If, however, the top and bottom dimensions are materially different, then you can average the top and bottom dimensions and use those averages in the expanded dough calculating tool. If we ever learn how much dough Buddy's uses for one of its pans, we will be able to correlate it with one of the sets of dimensions (top or bottom) and use that as the standard, even for other sizes of pans.

Peter

Peter,

I did recall that when you and Mike designed the deep-dish calculating tool the sloping sides were taken into consideration.  I didn’t think about how small my steel pans were on the bottom compared to the top until today.  My steel pan on the bottom is 8 ¾ “x 6 ¼”.  I guess members that use steel pans for Detroit styles of pizzas really don’t make adjustments for how small the bottom of there pans are though when making a Detroit style of pizza.

I know we don’t know the weights of the dough balls Buddy’s uses for their steel pans.  I understand we would only need to know what size pans we wanted to use in we knew those weights. 

I guess I will just go with the TF PizzaHog posted.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 28, 2012, 09:19:49 PM
I mixed another dough this evening for another attempt with PizzaHog’s TF.  The dough was mixed with my flat beater only in the Kitchen Aid mixer.  The dough was rested for 10 minutes and then mixed again.

The dough feels stickier this week.  The dough ball was oiled with olive oil and I just formed the dough ball the best I could and didn’t use any stretch and folds to see what happens.  The final dough temperature was 75.8 degrees F.

I will try to bake the pizza tomorrow if my power doesn’t go out.

This is also the work sheet from the expanded dough calculation tool for the dough if anyone is interested.  The dough was made with Kyrol flour. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 29, 2012, 02:55:14 PM
After cold fermenting for about 13 hrs., I took the dough ball out of the fridge.  The poppy seeds spacing showed the dough ball had not doubled in size.  I then left the dough ball sit out at room temperature (which was about 68 degrees F) for 1 ½ hrs.  The dough ball still didn’t double in size, so I turned my oven light on and placed the dough ball (in the plastic container) in my oven.  In about an hour the dough ball did double in size.  I also had made some of November’s sauce at Reply 7 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3735.msg32136.html#msg32136  earlier this morning with 6-in-1 ground tomatoes.  I grated 8 oz. of Great Lakes white sharp cheddar and mixed some of the Grande mix in with the cheddar.  Mostly all cheddar was used.  After the dough ball had doubled I dumped it out of the plastic container and lightly floured it.  It stretched very easily to fit the 10”x8” steel pan.  The steel pan was oiled.  I then put the plastic lid on the steel pan and put it into the oven with the light on.  The reasoning of why I did that was maybe to act like a proofing box and get the dough to temper faster then letting it temper at room temperature.  The dough in the pan stayed in my oven for 1 ½ hrs. to proof.

I then place 8.57 ounces of the cheese blend and spread it to the edges.  Next November’s sauce was applied in dollops. 

This Detroit style pizza was baked in my home oven at 475 degrees F for 15 minutes.  I think the pizza could have been baked a little longer, but it was still good.  I have to learn how this style of pizza bakes in my home oven.  I placed the pan on the bottom rack and didn’t move it at all.  I am not sure if I should let it on the bottom rack the next time for the whole bake and am not sure if my oven should be turned up a little higher in temperature. 

I did place an order for brick cheese (from the Mandi cheese shop) last week on the web, but received an email because of the bad weather that it wouldn’t be shipped until next week.   

I think I am starting to like Detroit style pizzas better than other styles of pizza.  I might mix another dough tonight.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 29, 2012, 02:56:08 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 29, 2012, 02:57:02 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 29, 2012, 02:59:21 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 29, 2012, 03:00:13 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 29, 2012, 03:01:04 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 29, 2012, 03:01:58 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Skee on October 29, 2012, 06:01:11 PM
Looks good Norma!  I'm curious about balling it though - why go through that step instead of just letting it bulk rise and then weighing it out directly into the pan and pressing into shape?

I started the 70% hydration dough last night with a one-hour room-temp rise and then into the fridge until tomorrow night.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 29, 2012, 07:12:42 PM
Looks good Norma!  I'm curious about balling it though - why go through that step instead of just letting it bulk rise and then weighing it out directly into the pan and pressing into shape?

I started the 70% hydration dough last night with a one-hour room-temp rise and then into the fridge until tomorrow night.

Skee,

I guess just bulk rising would be okay, but I never tried that method before.  I have worked on Jet’s Pizza and Pizzarium doughs and have always tried to get some strength in higher hydrations doughs, either by balling, adding flour slower, double mixing, or doing some stretch and folds.  I guess that is why I ball.  If I get to make another dough tonight, I probably will try a few stretch and folds, or try other methods to try and strengthen the dough.  I really don’t know how Detroit pizzas are made.  They might just bulk rise them and then the dough goes straight into the pan. 

I look forward to seeing your pie!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on October 29, 2012, 07:48:18 PM
I guess just bulk rising would be okay, but I never tried that method before.  I have worked on Jet’s Pizza and Pizzarium doughs and have always tried to get some strength in higher hydrations doughs, either by balling, adding flour slower, double mixing, or doing some stretch and folds.  I guess that is why I ball.  If I get to make another dough tonight, I probably will try a few stretch and folds, or try other methods to try and strengthen the dough.  I really don’t know how Detroit pizzas are made.  They might just bulk rise them and then the dough goes straight into the pan. 

Norma,

I believe the way that Buddy's dough is made is described in Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795. I thought that you made the dough ball round so that you could use the poppy seed trick.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 29, 2012, 08:18:13 PM
Norma,

I believe the way that Buddy's dough is made is described in Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795. I thought that you made the dough ball round so that you could use the poppy seed trick.

Peter

Peter,

I did read your post at Reply 318, but guess I didn’t recall all of the details for a typical dough-making schedule for square pizzas.  So the dough is in balls at Buddy‘s.  Are there any pictures of Buddy’s dough balls here on the forum, or anywhere else you have seen?  I don’t recall seeing any.  I did recall that Jet’s and Buddy’s makes their dough to be make into pizzas the same day.

The only reason I used the poppy seed trick was I wanted to know when the dough ball doubled, just for my own references.   I know I could use yeast and make a same day dough, but wonder how much yeast I would need to add for that and also wonder how the crust would taste.  I guess from your post at Reply 318 a good starting place would be about 0.60% IDY.  If I tried an experiment tomorrow with 0.60% IDY do you think it would be of any use?  I also guess the dough would then just stay at room temperature. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 29, 2012, 08:34:47 PM
This is the only picture I remember seeing of Buddy’s dough in a pan, but no dough ball. 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23396365/ns/business-us_business/t/pizza-makers-pinch-over-rising-wheat-prices/   It looks more puffy than my dough did today.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on October 29, 2012, 09:26:38 PM
Norma,

That is Mary Hellers of Buddy's. The same photo appears in Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg62851.html#msg62851. Like you, I do not remember dough balls as such in any photo, just the panned doughs. At one time, Buddy's indicated at its website that it used a double kneading method. I called and spoke with someone at one of the Detroit-area Buddy's and reported on what I found, along with some related aspects, at item 2 at Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436/topicseen.html#msg81436. As you will see from that item, there were several variations in the way that the Buddy's dough was made. The Buddy's website no longer mentions the double kneading. That kneading method may still be used but not revealed any longer.

Ideally, if you want to determine how much yeast to use for any given application, you would establish a reference standard for the dough, just as we recently did with a Papa Gino's clone dough. The fermentation can be at room temperature or it can be a cold fermentation. However, you don't want to go through the rather convoluted method you recently used to get your Trenton Bill dough ball to double in volume. Once the reference standard is established, we can do some calculations to determine how much IDY is needed for any given application that you would want to use, just as we did recently with the last Papa Gino's clone dough you made.

In your case, if you want to use 0.60% IDY for a room temperature fermentation, and you start sometime in the morning, I think that the dough should double in volume by sometime in the afternoon, assuming a normal room temperature for this time of year. The time and temperature that it takes to get the spacing of the poppy seeds to indicate a doubling of the dough would be used to establish the amount of yeast for any fermentation protocol you would then like to use. It can be a same day dough, an emergency dough, or a cold fermented dough. My guess is that Buddy's starts the dough in the morning and uses it throughout the day but with coolers available if needed to keep the dough from overfermenting, or possibly for holding over to the next day. That is essentially the way that Jet's does it.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 29, 2012, 10:25:55 PM
Norma,

That is Mary Hellers of Buddy's. The same photo appears in Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg62851.html#msg62851. Like you, I do not remember dough balls as such in any photo, just the panned doughs. At one time, Buddy's indicated at its website that it used a double kneading method. I called and spoke with someone at one of the Detroit-area Buddy's and reported on what I found, along with some related aspects, at item 2 at Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436/topicseen.html#msg81436. As you will see from that item, there were several variations in the way that the Buddy's dough was made. The Buddy's website no longer mentions the double kneading. That kneading method may still be used but not revealed any longer.

Ideally, if you want to determine how much yeast to use for any given application, you would establish a reference standard for the dough, just as we recently did with a Papa Gino's clone dough. The fermentation can be at room temperature or it can be a cold fermentation. However, you don't want to go through the rather convoluted method you recently used to get your Trenton Bill dough ball to double in volume. Once the reference standard is established, we can do some calculations to determine how much IDY is needed for any given application that you would want to use, just as we did recently with the last Papa Gino's clone dough you made.

In your case, if you want to use 0.60% IDY for a room temperature fermentation, and you start sometime in the morning, I think that the dough should double in volume by sometime in the afternoon, assuming a normal room temperature for this time of year. The time and temperature that it takes to get the spacing of the poppy seeds to indicate a doubling of the dough would be used to establish the amount of yeast for any fermentation protocol you would then like to use. It can be a same day dough, an emergency dough, or a cold fermented dough. My guess is that Buddy's starts the dough in the morning and uses it throughout the day but with coolers available if needed to keep the dough from overfermenting, or possibly for holding over to the next day. That is essentially the way that Jet's does it.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me that is Mary Hellers of Buddy’s.  I was following the Buddy’s/Shields thread awhile ago, but didn’t still go back though all the posts in that thread. 

Thanks for referencing the link to where you called and spoke with someone at one of the Detroit-area Buddy’s.  I find your comments interesting. If the dough is double kneaded and the double kneading is just removing dough from the mixer, patting it out, stretching it, and then panning it, there would be no need to ball the dough.  Is that correct? 

I sure don’t think this will be of any help, but Buddy’s pizza is featured in this blog with a video of Buddy‘s pizza, but don’t know if it was posted before or not.  If it was posted before, just ignore it. 

http://www.mahalo.com/how-to-make-detroit-style-pizza/

While I am at home I think I will try room temperature dough tomorrow and mix in the morning.  I didn’t know those references for a room temperature fermented dough would be helpful for a cold fermented dough.  Thanks for saying you would help me with the numbers again, just like you did in the Papa Gino’s dough.

I think if I get the Detroit style Buddy’s pizza right, I will try and offer them at market.   

I find it fascinating how similar Buddy’s pizza is to a Jet’s pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on October 29, 2012, 10:46:24 PM
Norma,

The only reason to ball the dough for your next experiment is to establish the reference standard. For the actual dough that goes into a pan, you might use the double kneading method. Some adjustment might have to be made to compensate for the fact that the two doughs have different shapes. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 29, 2012, 10:57:11 PM
Norma,

The only reason to ball the dough for your next experiment is to establish the reference standard. For the actual dough that goes into a pan, you might use the double kneading method. Some adjustment might have to be made to compensate for the fact that the two doughs have different shapes. We'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

Peter


Peter,

I will ball the dough for my next experiment tomorrow to establish the reference standard.  I will try the double kneading method.  I can understand some adjustment might have to be made to compensate for the fact that the two doughs have different shapes.

Thanks again for you help!  

Norma

Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2012, 05:39:12 AM

Peter,

I forgot to ask you, but do you think from madymo3d post at Reply 99 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73884.html#msg73884 I should oil my fingers in a bowl of oil to press the dough out.  Do you think he meant before panning the dough?  The reason I ask is because the dough in the pans from the picture with Mary Heller doesn’t look oiled.

I guess since I am going to ball the dough, I will used GIBBY’s method of punching down the dough (for the double knead method)  after the dough is panned.  GIBBY’s post was at 112 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg79248.html#msg79248  When I spread out the dough yesterday, it did spread easily.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2012, 07:44:24 AM
After the dogs woke me up early this morning to go outside (due to all the high windy conditions and rain last evening), I mixed another attempt at a dough.  I think this is the earliest in the morning that I have ever mixed a dough for pizza.

The dough was mixed like the last attempt with a flat beater in my Kitchen Aid mixer, but this time I let the dough sit for 10 minutes before balling.  The dough ball was a lot smoother using this method.  I guess that was because the gluten relaxed some.  The final dough temperature was 75.4 degrees F. and was finished mixing at 6:42 AM.  The ambient room temperature in my kitchen was 71 degrees F.  This dough is going to be room temperature fermented today. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2012, 07:46:49 AM
I saw this blog post this morning and the blogger said he asked questions about Buddy’s pizza to Wes Pikula (vice president of operation for Buddy’s Pizza), to explain how to make a Detroit-style pie at home.

http://12inchpetetreat.wordpress.com/2011/11/08/guest-drop-1-buddys-pizza-of-detroit/

There really isn’t a lot of information in the bloggers post, but I wonder what it means that the lean dough (I guess lean dough means no oil) makes a 2”-3” pizza crust.  That is a lot of difference in a baked crust thickness, at least in my opinion.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2012, 07:54:07 AM
A blown-up picture from the bloggers post of Buddy's pizza years ago.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on October 30, 2012, 09:02:18 AM
I forgot to ask you, but do you think from madymo3d post at Reply 99 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73884.html#msg73884 I should oil my fingers in a bowl of oil to press the dough out.  Do you think he meant before panning the dough?  The reason I ask is because the dough in the pans from the picture with Mary Heller doesn’t look oiled.

I guess since I am going to ball the dough, I will used GIBBY’s method of punching down the dough (for the double knead method)  after the dough is panned.  GIBBY’s post was at 112 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg79248.html#msg79248  When I spread out the dough yesterday, it did spread easily.

Norma,

I'm sure that over the years the workers at Buddy's have found different ways to prepare the dough in the pans. Since there is no oil used in the Buddy's dough, I think I would skip the step of using oiled fingers to work the dough to the edges of the pans. I would imagine that if one uses oiled fingers to press out the dough it would be done while the dough is in the pan, not outside of it. However, I suppose either method can be made to work.

I would imagine that punching down the dough is something that is done if it needs it. For example, if a dough is rising too fast and there is still enough time to allow it to rise again before using, it might be necessary to punch the dough down. Otherwise, there may be no need to punch down the dough. This is one of those things that one learns through experience.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on October 30, 2012, 09:29:07 AM
I saw this blog post this morning and the blogger said he asked questions about Buddy’s pizza to Wes Pikula (vice president of operation for Buddy’s Pizza), to explain how to make a Detroit-style pie at home.

http://12inchpetetreat.wordpress.com/2011/11/08/guest-drop-1-buddys-pizza-of-detroit/

There really isn’t a lot of information in the bloggers post, but I wonder what it means that the lean dough (I guess lean dough means no oil) makes a 2”-3” pizza crust.  That is a lot of difference in a baked crust thickness, at least in my opinion.

Norma,

A lean dough is one that has little or no oil or fat in it. The 2"-3" thickness number mentioned in the article you referenced most likely refers to the height of the dough in the pan rather than the height of the finished crust. If that is correct, that would suggest that the pan rises to the full height of the pan and maybe a bit higher and may be a case where the dough should be punched down. But, in general, the procedure that Wes Pikula describes in the article seems to be consistent with the methods described by the former Buddy's worker in Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795. As for applying cheese to the unbaked dough as it proofs, as the article mentions, it is hard to say if that is the standard procedure at Buddy's. If so, that would mean that for a pepperoni pizza, the pepperoni slices would have to go onto the dough before the cheese since Buddy's puts the pepperoni under the cheese. I would imagine that the Buddy pizzas are dressed in the standard manner although it is possible that they put the cheese down on top of a proofing dough during peak times for basic cheese pizzas. Even that seems inefficient.

You might want to reference the blog article at the Buddy's thread in case it was not found in the course of that thread.

I forgot to ask earlier but did you prefer one of the recent Trenton Bill's pizzas over the other?

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2012, 10:18:10 AM
Norma,

A lean dough is one that has little or no oil or fat in it. The 2"-3" thickness number mentioned in the article you referenced most likely refers to the height of the dough in the pan rather than the height of the finished crust. If that is correct, that would suggest that the pan rises to the full height of the pan and maybe a bit higher and may be a case where the dough should be punched down. But, in general, the procedure that Wes Pikula describes in the article seems to be consistent with the methods described by the former Buddy's worker in Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795. As for applying cheese to the unbaked dough as it proofs, as the article mentions, it is hard to say if that is the standard procedure at Buddy's. If so, that would mean that for a pepperoni pizza, the pepperoni slices would have to go onto the dough before the cheese since Buddy's puts the pepperoni under the cheese. I would imagine that the Buddy pizzas are dressed in the standard manner although it is possible that they put the cheese down on top of a proofing dough during peak times for basic cheese pizzas. Even that seems inefficient.

You might want to reference the blog article at the Buddy's thread in case it was not found in the course of that thread.

I forgot to ask earlier but did you prefer one of the recent Trenton Bill's pizzas over the other?

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for confirming what I thought a lean dough was.  I had wondered about the 2”-3” thickness number in the article.  If what it referenced in the article is correct my dough isn’t even right, because when the dough was tempered, it wasn’t 2”-3” before the bake, or I am not letting the dough proof enough.  Do you think I should let my dough rise until it reaches that height and then punch it down. 

I will reference the blog article over at the Buddy’s thread in case it was not found in the course of that thread and also what you posted.  I would post what I am doing over at the Buddy’s thread, but don’t want to hog-up that thread in case I am not doing something right.  If you think I should be posting what I am experimenting with at the Buddy’s thread instead of this thread, I can change threads.  That is up to you.   

I don’t know why, but think I preferred the Trenton Bill’s pizza yesterday with PizzaHog’s TF.  I don’t know if I like the cheese blend (or brand of cheddar better), the way my oven baked the pizza, or the TF better.  I might change my mind again though.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2012, 10:22:10 AM
This picture shows how much the spacing of the poppys seeds changed in a little over 3 hrs. The picture was taken at 9:51 AM.  I was surprised that the dough ball has fermented this much in that short amount of time.  It is still 71 degrees ambient room temperature in my kitchen. 

Don’t even ask if I noticed when the poppy seeds spacing showed when the dough had doubled, because I was so tired with the storm and the dogs getting me up early this morning that I took a nap.  :-D I might be able to note when the dough has doubled in the future. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2012, 10:25:17 AM
A picture that tells more about Detroit style pizzas and how Buddy’s started.  I am posting this incase anyone doesn’t know about it.  I didn’t know the history of Detroit style pizzas before and don’t even know if this is all of it.

I hope the picture can be read when it is posted.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on October 30, 2012, 11:02:34 AM
Norma,

I wouldn't worry about how fast the dough has risen. Actually, 0.60% IDY is a lot for a room temperature fermentation at around 71 degrees F. The roughly 71% hydration and the finished dough temperature of 75.4 degrees F no doubt also helped speed up the fermentation. But I view all of this as good news because it suggests that Buddy's may be using a similar set of values for its commercial operation. If the fermentation time is indeed as short as 1-2 hours, then it is possible that even more yeast is used at Buddy's. And they may rely on coolers to hold the dough for use throughout the day. Othewise, the dough balls would overferment.

In your case, I would fit the dough to the pan and let the dough continue to rise and monitor its progress. You don't want the dough to rise to the point where it starts to collapse. If the dough approaches the top of the pan, then you might punch it down. From that point, you can let the dough rise again before using. The final height of the dough in the pan might be as shown in the photos in Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg62851.html#msg62851. If you are not in a position to bake the pizza today, you might cover the pan and refrigerate the dough. Then, when you are ready to use the dough, let it temper at room temperature until it rises to the same point as shown in Reply 26.

FYI, based on the spacing of the poppy seeds shown in your photo, the dough more than tripled in volume from the time you made the dough to the time where the spacing of the poppy seeds went from 1" to 1.5".

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2012, 11:21:54 AM
Norma,

I wouldn't worry about how fast the dough has risen. Actually, 0.60% IDY is a lot for a room temperature fermentation at around 71 degrees F. The roughly 71% hydration and the finished dough temperature of 75.4 degrees F no doubt also helped speed up the fermentation. But I view all of this as good news because it suggests that Buddy's may be using a similar set of values for its commercial operation. If the fermentation time is indeed as short as 1-2 hours, then it is possible that even more yeast is used at Buddy's. And they may rely on coolers to hold the dough for use throughout the day. Othewise, the dough balls would overferment.

In your case, I would fit the dough to the pan and let the dough continue to rise and monitor its progress. You don't want the dough to rise to the point where it starts to collapse. If the dough approaches the top of the pan, then you might punch it down. From that point, you can let the dough rise again before using. The final height of the dough in the pan might be as shown in the photos in Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg62851.html#msg62851. If you are not in a position to bake the pizza today, you might cover the pan and refrigerate the dough. Then, when you are ready to use the dough, let it temper at room temperature until it rises to the same point as shown in Reply 26.

FYI, based on the spacing of the poppy seeds shown in your photo, the dough more than tripled in volume from the time you made the dough to the time where the spacing of the poppy seeds went from 1" to 1.5".

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for posting that I should not worry about how fast the dough has risen.  I don’t think I have done any room temperature fermented doughs before with 0.60 % IDY, so I didn’t know what to expect.  Also the higher hydration dough would ferment faster I would think.  At least I am glad you view this as good news.

I will fit the dough into the pan and will continue to monitor its progress.  Thanks for explaining what to do. 

I plan on making the pizza today.

Thanks also for telling me that the dough more than tripled in volume from the time I made the dough until a little over 3 hrs. passed.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2012, 11:49:14 AM
I measured the poppy seeds spacing again at 11:30 AM, then removed the poppy seeds and lightly floured the top of the dough ball and also floured my table a little.  The dough was soft and bubbly and it easily stretched and also was easy to put in the steel pan.  The dough was placed into the 10” x 8” steel pan at 11:38 PM.  I will continue to monitor the dough in the steel pan.

I must have mistakenly dropped a couple of poppy seeds in the bottom of the plastic container, because I found a couple when I went to open the dough ball. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2012, 11:49:49 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2012, 02:19:38 PM
This is what the dough looks like in the steel pan after two hours of proofing at the ambient temperature of 71 degrees F.  I has tempered some, but not a lot.  I measured how tall the dough has proofed and it has only proofed one inch.  After thinking about it, I would think when I did the balling of the dough (and then letting it ferment at room temperature) that might have been like one kneading if my thinking is right.  The time the dough has been in the pan I would guess would be like double kneading.  If my thinking isn’t right, let me know.  I sure don’t want to punch the dough down in the pan again since it isn’t proofing very fast.  I would venture to guess that Buddy’s has this all figured out right and I might need to do some experimenting to see what works for me when making a one day room temperature fermented dough to be baked the same day.  I think it might take a long while for my dough to ferment enough in my steel pan, unless I use my oven with the light on, or my Styrofoam proofing box.   

I also called Mandi Foods, Inc. http://www.mandifoods.com/shop/search.aspx this morning to see when my brick cheese would be shipped, since the weather isn’t that bad in my area from Sandy.  I know the brick cheese was supposed to be shipped though FedEx and saw a FedEx truck go by on my street this morning, so I knew they are delivering to my area.  Kayla told me the FedEx location was closed in my area, but I told her I saw them making deliveries this morning.  Kayla then called my local FedEx location and called me back to say they are delivering in my area, if there aren’t downed trees, or power lines.  Kayla said she would have my brick cheese shipped out today and I should receive it by tomorrow.  Trenton Bill had also purchased brick cheese from Mandi Foods, Inc. and said he got his brick cheese in one day of ordering it and it also was packaged very well.  Hopefully, I will received the brick cheese tomorrow and maybe be able to make another dough for Thursday to try the brick cheese.  Trenton Bill said he mixed the brick cheese with some white cheddar when he made his Detroit Buddy’s style pie.  I also asked Kayla for the Nutrition Facts for their brick cheese.  Kayla said she would either send the Nutrition Facts to me with the brick cheese, or email the Nutrition Facts to me.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2012, 02:22:58 PM
This is what the brick cheese looks like, that I ordered from Mandi Foods, Inc.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on October 30, 2012, 02:57:10 PM
This is what the dough looks like in the steel pan after two hours of proofing at the ambient temperature of 71 degrees F.  I has tempered some, but not a lot.  I measured how tall the dough has proofed and it has only proofed one inch.  After thinking about it, I would think when I did the balling of the dough (and then letting it ferment at room temperature) that might have been like one kneading if my thinking is right.  The time the dough has been in the pan I would guess would be like double kneading.  If my thinking isn’t right, let me know.  I sure don’t want to punch the dough down in the pan again since it isn’t proofing very fast.  I would venture to guess that Buddy’s has this all figured out right and I might need to do some experimenting to see what works for me when making a one day room temperature fermented dough to be baked the same day.  I think it might take a long while for my dough to ferment enough in my steel pan, unless I use my oven with the light on, or my Styrofoam proofing box.   

Norma,

It is possible that if you had generally stretched and flattened the dough ball into the pan at the outset, the rise in the pan would have been higher. Maybe that is the way to do it next time. Also, we really don't know what amount of dough Buddy's uses for the 8" x 10" pan size, and we don't know the ambient temperature where the Buddy's dough rises.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2012, 03:09:31 PM
Norma,

It is possible that if you had generally stretched and flattened the dough ball into the pan at the outset, the rise in the pan would have been higher. Maybe that is the way to do it next time. Also, we really don't know what amount of dough Buddy's uses for the 8" x 10" pan size, and we don't know the ambient temperature where the Buddy's dough rises.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me if I had generally stretched and flattened the dough ball into the pan at the outset, the rise in the pan would have been higher.  I didn’t think of trying that, but will the next time. 

I know we don’t know how much dough Buddy’s uses for the 8”x10” pan size and also don’t know the ambient temperature of where Buddy’s dough rises.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2012, 03:19:32 PM
This what the dough looks like after 3 hrs. of proofing at the same ambient room temperature.  There is now a bubble on top of the dough at one spot.  I also used a ruler to measure the dough and it isn’t even one inch in height.

I wonder how long I should let this dough proof.  I don't want to let the dough overferment.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2012, 03:21:38 PM

I received a PDF document for the Eddie’s brick cheese and am posting it if anyone is interested.  Kayla said in an email they did shop out the brick cheese I ordered this afternoon and it was shipped out via FedEx One Day.  Kayla also said in the email if I have any other questions about the Nutrition Facts to let her know.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on October 30, 2012, 04:05:02 PM
I wonder how long I should let this dough proof.  I don't want to let the dough overferment.

Norma,

If the dough isn't rising much anymore, you might want to use the dough to make a pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2012, 04:55:48 PM
Norma,

If the dough isn't rising much anymore, you might want to use the dough to make a pizza.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks, the dough wasn't rising a lot, so I did make the pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2012, 04:59:45 PM

I decided to proceed and make the pizza after the dough proofed for 4 hrs.  First picture is of the dough in the steel pan at 4 hrs.  The dough did smell very good and yeasty.  

The dough was dressed with Nasonville one year old aged white cheddar and Nasonville pizza cheese.  The same amount of the cheese blend was used as in my last attempt.  I used November’s sauce again.

I turned my oven up the whole way this time, (probably was about 515 degrees F) and baked for 18 minutes on the bottom shelf of my home oven.

The pizza was easy to take out of the steel pan, even though my steel pan isn’t seasoned right.  I can be seen on the wooden ruler how thick the pizza was.  

There is a gum line on part of this pizza, but I sure didn’t mind it.  The taste of the crust was really good and the cheese blend did taste very good too.  November’s sauce also tasted very good on this pizza.  The caramelized edges and bottom crust were just delicious.  :P I sure don’t know if the pizza I made is anything like Buddy’s, but I did enjoy two slices of the pizza.  I have saved one slice for my mom and one slice for my daughter, but I think I could have eaten the whole pie.  

Norma  
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2012, 05:00:33 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2012, 05:01:20 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2012, 05:02:10 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2012, 05:03:14 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2012, 05:04:09 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on October 30, 2012, 06:06:40 PM
Norma,

That is a good looking pizza--not bad for an emergency dough. Maybe next time, you can increase the amount of yeast and/or shoot for a higher finished dough temperature (by using warmer water). I'd like to see if you can get a greater rise in the pan.

While you were baking your pizza, I was posting over at the Buddy's thread at Reply 471 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg220496.html#msg220496. There is some information there that I think you should find helpful in making future Buddy's clones.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2012, 07:19:01 PM
Norma,

That is a good looking pizza--not bad for an emergency dough. Maybe next time, you can increase the amount of yeast and/or shoot for a higher finished dough temperature (by using warmer water). I'd like to see if you can get a greater rise in the pan.

While you were baking your pizza, I was posting over at the Buddy's thread at Reply 471 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg220496.html#msg220496. There is some information there that I think you should find helpful in making future Buddy's clones.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for saying the last attempt was good for an emergency dough.  I never would have know that it was an emergency dough pizza, because it tasted so good.  I will increase the amount of yeast and shoot for a higher finished dough temperature for my next attempt.  What amount of yeast do you suggest?  I guess I could use regular hot tap water to try if you think the water should be that hot.  If I received the brick cheese tomorrow, I will make another attempt on Thursday.  I would like to get a greater rise in the pan.

Your information is very helpful at the Buddy’s thread.  You are always finding useful information and go to great lengths to find and investigate about clones. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on October 30, 2012, 07:43:01 PM
Norma,

I think I would go with 0.80% IDY and shoot for a finished dough temperature of around 90 degrees F. You might also note the weights of the dough, sauce and cheese (that is, the weight of the unbaked pizza), and also the weight of the baked pizza. I'd like to get a better idea of the extent of the losses during the baking of a pan-style pizza such as the Buddy's style, especially given the long bake time.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2012, 08:17:21 PM
Norma,

I think I would go with 0.80% IDY and shoot for a finished dough temperature of around 90 degrees F. You might also note the weights of the dough, sauce and cheese (that is, the weight of the unbaked pizza), and also the weight of the baked pizza. I'd like to get a better idea of the extent of the losses during the baking of a pan-style pizza such as the Buddy's style, especially given the long bake time.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for suggesting to go with 0.80% IDY and to shoot for a finished dough temperature of around 90 degrees F.  I will note the weights of the dough, sauce and cheese and also weigh the baked pizza.  I was going to weigh the baked pizzas in my last two attempts, but didn’t know you might want those weights.  I was also going to weight the amount of sauce I used, but didn’t in the last two attempts.  Do you have any idea of how much sauce I should be using in weights for a 10”x8” pan?  I will use November’s sauce since I have enough leftover. 

I also can do the same weights when I try another pizza at market.  That will probably be this coming Tuesday, but will probably be a cold fermented dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on October 30, 2012, 08:46:39 PM
Do you have any idea of how much sauce I should be using in weights for a 10”x8” pan?  I will use November’s sauce since I have enough leftover.  

Norma,

In cases like this, I look for guidance from photos and I try to emulate what I see in the photos. In Buddy's case, the sauce is applied in dollops to form two or three strips. The strips need not be neatly formed. In fact, they can be quite ragged and splotchy. An example of what I have in mind is the photo at http://bp0.blogger.com/__XShj91sMpw/RlJCGZFbuCI/AAAAAAAAAk4/jIeRhr1ub-U/s1600-h/redwings_5.JPG. If you tare the pan and pizza before adding the sauce, you can get an idea as to the quantity of sauce used. The method of sauce application used at Buddy's simply does not lend itself to quantitative measurements. All we really know is that Buddy's uses non-chunky tomato products from Stanislaus plus a spice/herb blend of some sort. My guess, for what it is worth, is that the Buddy's sauce for the 8" x 10" pan pizza is only a few ounces.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 30, 2012, 09:31:07 PM
Norma,

In cases like this, I look for guidance from photos and I try to emulate what I see in the photos. In Buddy's case, the sauce is applied in dollops to form two or three strips. The strips need not be neatly formed. In fact, they can be quite ragged and splotchy. An example of what I have in mind is the photo at http://bp0.blogger.com/__XShj91sMpw/RlJCGZFbuCI/AAAAAAAAAk4/jIeRhr1ub-U/s1600-h/redwings_5.JPG. If you tare the pan and pizza before adding the sauce, you can get an idea as to the quantity of sauce used. The method of sauce application used at Buddy's simply does not lend itself to quantitative measurements. All we really know is that Buddy's uses non-chunky tomato products from Stanislaus plus a spice/herb blend of some sort. My guess, for what it is worth, is that the Buddy's sauce for the 8" x 10" pan pizza is only a few ounces

Peter


Peter,

I have looked at photos of Buddy’s pizza in terms of sauce and the sauce does look different in some photos.  I think your idea is good to tare the pan and pizza before adding the sauce.  I didn’t think of that before.  Thanks for your guess of the sauce amount.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 31, 2012, 08:25:02 AM


This is radio pod cast from the president (Robert Jacobs) of Buddy’s Pizza from Discover Good Foods, if anyone is interested in hearing it and didn’t listen to it before.

http://wjr.com/FlashPlayer/default.asp?SPID=28610&ID=2545060

Maybe in this article is a decent picture of Buddy’s pizza to see the sauce.

http://eatyourworld.com/destinations/united_states/michigan/detroit/what_to_eat/square_pizza

I looked though the pictures on Buddy’s website and these are some of them.  I find it interesting in Buddy’s photos, that in some of the pictures the pizzas don’t look that thick and in other pictures the pizzas do look thicker.  There are loads of pictures of Buddy‘s pizza at their website under photo Albums. 
https://picasaweb.google.com/114686826736602030019?authkey=Gv1sRgCOKh85bFvrWNzwE

In this bloggers article the caramelized edges on the Buddy’s pizza look a lot darker to me and the sauce does look thicker to me if my eyes aren’t fooling me.

http://zemanation.com/2010/12/detroit-day-1/

I guess pictures of Buddy’s pizzas are like all other pizzas.  They can look different.  I was just trying to get a better idea of what Buddy’s pizzas look like.

From the one old photo at Buddy’s years ago, it sure doesn’t look like that pizza in the pan was very high.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 31, 2012, 08:26:15 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 31, 2012, 08:27:47 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on October 31, 2012, 10:43:26 AM

This is radio pod cast from the president (Robert Jacobs) of Buddy’s Pizza from Discover Good Foods, if anyone is interested in hearing it and didn’t listen to it before.

http://wjr.com/FlashPlayer/default.asp?SPID=28610&ID=2545060

Maybe in this article is a decent picture of Buddy’s pizza to see the sauce.

http://eatyourworld.com/destinations/united_states/michigan/detroit/what_to_eat/square_pizza

I looked though the pictures on Buddy’s website and these are some of them.  I find it interesting in Buddy’s photos, that in some of the pictures the pizzas don’t look that thick and in other pictures the pizzas do look thicker.

Norma,

I found the podcast to be quite interesting. There was not much added to what we already know about the Buddy's dough but the podcast did confirm that there is no oil or sugar in the dough and that the cheese is a brick cheese. Interestingly, in the Eat Our World article you referenced it is mentioned that Buddy's does not use mozzarella cheese but rather a “'secret blend' that includes Wisconsin brick cheese". That statement does not square with anything I have read or heard about the cheese used at Buddy's, including in the podcast (at 29:56). However, as the podcast mentions, Buddy's does have a cheese blend that they refer to as the Motor City blend. That blend includes Fontinella, Asiago, Parmesan and brick cheese. It is part of the Motor City Pizza Collection: http://www.buddyspizza.com/downloads/MotorCityPizzaCollection.pdf. I did not see anything in the Buddy's menu that suggests that that blend is an option for the regular and specialty pizzas on its menu.

I am not surprised that the Buddy's pizzas can have varying crust thicknesses. I believe that it is harder to control a dough that uses a lot of yeast and a fast fermentation at a room temperature that can vary throughout the year. Even with coolers I think it can be hard to control the dough and its expansion throughout the day. And maybe some workers do not punch down the dough the same way or to the same degree every time. With all of these variations, I would imagine they translate to finished crusts with varying thicknesses.

I am not also surprised that some of the Buddy's pizzas have more cheese "crustiness". My recollection is that a former Buddy's worker (Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795) said that he preferred that his Buddy's pizzas be baked a few minutes longer than usual, which he did by putting the pizza back onto the conveyor line. I suspect that some guests at Buddy's ask for a more well-done pizza also. Remember, also, that your home oven, and even your deck oven at work, does not bake the same as a conveyor oven.

BTW, from the photo at Reply 304 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg131753.html#msg131753, it looks like Buddy's uses two strips of sauce on its 4-square pizzas, just as you have been doing.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 31, 2012, 12:47:30 PM
Norma,

I found the podcast to be quite interesting. There was not much added to what we already know about the Buddy's dough but the podcast did confirm that there is no oil or sugar in the dough and that the cheese is a brick cheese. Interestingly, in the Eat Our World article you referenced it is mentioned that Buddy's does not use mozzarella cheese but rather a “'secret blend' that includes Wisconsin brick cheese". That statement does not square with anything I have read or heard about the cheese used at Buddy's, including in the podcast (at 29:56). However, as the podcast mentions, Buddy's does have a cheese blend that they refer to as the Motor City blend. That blend includes Fontinella, Asiago, Parmesan and brick cheese. It is part of the Motor City Pizza Collection: http://www.buddyspizza.com/downloads/MotorCityPizzaCollection.pdf. I did not see anything in the Buddy's menu that suggests that that blend is an option for the regular and specialty pizzas on its menu.

I am not surprised that the Buddy's pizzas can have varying crust thicknesses. I believe that it is harder to control a dough that uses a lot of yeast and a fast fermentation at a room temperature that can vary throughout the year. Even with coolers I think it can be hard to control the dough and its expansion throughout the day. And maybe some workers do not punch down the dough the same way or to the same degree every time. With all of these variations, I would imagine they translate to finished crusts with varying thicknesses.

I am not also surprised that some of the Buddy's pizzas have more cheese "crustiness". My recollection is that a former Buddy's worker (Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795) said that he preferred that his Buddy's pizzas be baked a few minutes longer than usual, which he did by putting the pizza back onto the conveyor line. I suspect that some guests at Buddy's ask for a more well-done pizza also. Remember, also, that your home oven, and even your deck oven at work, does not bake the same as a conveyor oven.

BTW, from the photo at Reply 304 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg131753.html#msg131753, it looks like Buddy's uses two strips of sauce on its 4-square pizzas, just as you have been doing.

Peter


Peter,

I am glad that you found the podcast interesting.  I thought you might have heard it before.  I think there is another podcast with Robert Jacobs (made before the one I posted), but couldn’t find it on Discover Good Foods.  When I was searching on the web it did show up, but maybe I am not good at searching at Discover Good Foods.  I thought it was interesting to hear Robert Jacobs talk about Buddy’s even though we know most of what he talked about. 

I sure don’t know if the Motor City Cheese Blend could be added on Buddy’s regular pizzas, but this article tells more about the 5 new pizzas with the Motor City Cheese blend.  http://thehungrydudes.com/the-great-lakes-pizza-collection-at-buddys-pizza/  That cheese blend sure sounds good to me.  I have also noticed after looking at many pictures of Buddy’s pizzas that they look sunken in the middle.  I am not sure if the “sunken look” is from the way the edges are pinch up in the steel pan, or if the toppings contribute to the “sunken look”.  I did notice yesterday that my Buddy’s attempt did have that “sunken look” though, after it had cooled a little. 

In this article and video it tells how to make Buddy’s Lake Huron Pizza.

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/19042572/how-to-make-buddys-lake-huron-pizza

The 10 oz. part of the lean dough used for the Buddy’s Lake Huron Pizza is close to what I used yesterday.  It also tells in Step 2 to place the dough ball in the square pan and press evenly until it covers the complete bottom of the pan completely, making sure that the sides are slightly pushed up around the perimeter and in Step 3: Spread shredded or ground cheese on the dough. Proof the cheesed pizza at room temperature for 1-2 hours, depending on preference.  That pizza sounds very good to me.

It is good to know that it doesn’t surprise you that Buddy’s pizzas can have varying crust thicknesses.  I can understand it is harder to control a dough that uses a lot of yeast and a fast fermentation at room temperature that can vary throughout the year.  I had my own problems with what I did yesterday and guess I didn’t fully understand what to do. 

I recall the Buddy’s worker at Reply 318 that posted that he preferred that his Buddy’s pizza be baked a few minutes longer.  I sure have no idea how conveyor ovens bake, but do know that my home oven and deck oven bake differently.  I even had a problem with the first attempt at a Buddy’s pizza in my home oven that the edges weren’t as dark as I would have liked. 
 
I found it interesting in the Eat Your World article that it said that the Detroit style pizza has doughy insides, besides what else that is said.  I wonder if the dough insides part is somewhat like a gumline. 

What: Detroit is one of many American cities claiming its own style of pizza: square and Sicilian-esque, cheesy and splashed with tomato sauce on top, with a thick, crispy exterior crust and doughy insides—a rather addicting contrast of textures.

At least I am applying the sauce right on my recent Buddy’s attempts at home. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 31, 2012, 12:51:05 PM
I received the shipment of Eddie’s brick cheese from Mandi Cheese Shop in Pittsburgh, Pa. this morning.  The packaging was very good and the brick cheese was cold when it arrived. 

I didn’t taste the brick cheese yet, but am anxious to try it out to see what all the “buzz” is about using brick cheese on pizzas.  Since I never tasted brick cheese baked on a pizza before it will be interesting to see what it tastes like.  The loaf of brick cheese is almost as big as my 8”x10” steel pan. 

Trenton Bill told me he tried the Eddie’s brick cheese alone on his Detroit style pizza, but said the pizza tasted better with a cheddar cheese added.  Trenton Bill did say that the brick cheese did melt well with a very buttery taste though.   

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on October 31, 2012, 01:32:04 PM
Norma,

The former Buddy's employee said that they used a half-pound of cheese for the 4-square pizza. Elsewhere, I had read that the amount of cheese for the 8-square pizza was 15 ounces. So, I would imagine that 7.5-8 ounces of the brick cheese is what you may want to use for your next 4-square pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 31, 2012, 02:23:51 PM
Norma,

The former Buddy's employee said that they used a half-pound of cheese for the 4-square pizza. Elsewhere, I had read that the amount of cheese for the 8-square pizza was 15 ounces. So, I would imagine that 7.5-8 ounces of the brick cheese is what you may want to use for your next 4-square pizza.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for telling me to try 7.5-8 ounces of brick cheese on my Buddy's attempt tomorrow. I am also wondering since I only got about a 1” dough rise when proofing and so did Skee on his Buddy’s clones if I should up my TF a little for tomorrow.

The video and article I posted at Reply 91 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220597.html#msg220597  said that Buddy’s pizza is 2-3” in the finished crust. 

Buddy's Pizza uses what's called a lean dough to make its famous 2-3 inch thick Detroit-style pizza crust. No oil or sugar is added. They proof it, or let it sit at room temperature for 1-2 hours until it rises, before it hits the oven.

Do you have any idea of how big that dough ball is when looking at the video for the 8-square Buddy’s Lake Huron Pizza?

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on October 31, 2012, 02:56:14 PM
The video and article I posted at Reply 91 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220597.html#msg220597  said that Buddy’s pizza is 2-3” in the finished crust.  

Buddy's Pizza uses what's called a lean dough to make its famous 2-3 inch thick Detroit-style pizza crust. No oil or sugar is added. They proof it, or let it sit at room temperature for 1-2 hours until it rises, before it hits the oven.

Do you have any idea of how big that dough ball is when looking at the video for the 8-square Buddy’s Lake Huron Pizza?

Norma,

I think that the 2"-3" statement may reflect sloppy thinking and/or sloppy writing or maybe an exaggeration, especially the 3" number. If you measure your steel pans, which I believe are the same as the ones that Buddy's uses or has used, I think that you will find that they are about 2 1/2" deep (on the vertical). If the 2"-3" number is to be believed, that would mean that the dough would fill most of the pans or even rise above the pans. I have not seen any photos that depict such an event, but if the dough does in fact rise above the pans, then it most likely have to be punched down, either before or at the time that the cheese, sauce and toppings are applied on top of the dough. Remember, also, that the pans are stacked across each other to let the dough balls proof in their pans. So, having overflowing dough in the pans as they are stacked one upon the other would not make sense. And we know that the finished crust is nowhere near 2"-3" in height.

I can't say at this time whether the thickness factor should be increased or not. I would rather wait to see if the increased amount of yeast and/or a higher finished dough temperature produce a greater rise in the pan. It's also possible that Buddy's uses a higher hydration than 70%. That could allow for a more billowy rise in the dough. But, as you know, I do not like to change multiple variables at one time.

I tried to guess the weight of the dough ball shown in the video you referenced but I could not tell what it was. If it was next to something with known dimensions, then I might have been able to do some analysis to estimate its size and weight. It's also possible that the dough ball in the video was just a prop, not an actual dough ball as used in a Buddy's store. I am hoping that the weights that you provide after your next Buddy's clone might offer some insights on the amount of dough used to make the 4-square pizza.

Peter

Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 31, 2012, 03:16:17 PM
Peter,

You are right that the 3” statement isn’t right.  I just measured my steel pan and it can be seen what the height is on the vertical.  Mine isn’t even 2 ½”.  The finished crust couldn’t be 2” inch either.  I didn’t even think of measuring my steel pan on the vertical before.  I guess your logic wins over mine anytime.   :-D

I will just proceed with the same TF as PizzaHog used.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 31, 2012, 03:35:28 PM
I sent an email to Buddy’s that I might be visiting sometime and asked a few questions.  I really didn’t think I would get any answers because of proprietary reasons, but at least I tried.  I also asked about the brick cheese and how much fat it had.

Peter’s amount for the cheese looks great though.

This is what Buddy’s said in their email to me.

Thank you for your interest in our company and we look forward to your visit. Our dough is proprietary so we do publish the ingredients or the quantity in a dough ball. We additionally, do not sell our dough balls. The amount of fat in Brick cheese, according to the nutritional label is 9g in a 28g portion. We put almost 8oz total on a 4-square pizza. Please note it is hand applied so the amount is approximate.

Happy Halloween!

Buddy’s responded really fast.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on October 31, 2012, 03:58:24 PM
Norma,

If Buddy's is using the Foremost Farms brick cheese, which I referenced yesterday over at the Buddy's thread at Reply 471 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg220496.html#msg220496, there is indeed 9 grams of total fat for 28 grams (one ounce) of the Foremost Farms brick cheese. (The Foremost Farms specs for their brick cheese is at http://www.foremostfarms.com/Commercial/pdfs/Nutritional%20Information/NDS_Brick.pdf.) But if 8 ounces of such a brick cheese are used for a 4-square pizza, then the total fat would be 8 x 9 = 72 grams. However, if you look at the Buddy's Nutrition information at http://www.buddyspizza.com/nutrition.asp?Category=3, four slices of a cheese pizza--that is, one 4-square cheese pizza--would have 4 x 14 grams of total fat, or 56 grams. That would be equivalent to 6.22 ounces of the brick cheese, not 8 ounces. I think you can now see why I choose not to rely on the Buddy's Nutrition information. Where there is one roach, there will be others.

I sent an email today to Buddy's thanking them for their fast responses to my questions. I received a nice reply shortly thereafter.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 31, 2012, 04:09:03 PM
Norma,

If Buddy's is using the Foremost Farms brick cheese, which I referenced yesterday over at the Buddy's thread at Reply 471 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg220496.html#msg220496, there is indeed 9 grams of total fat for 28 grams (one ounce) of the Foremost Farms brick cheese. (The Foremost Farms specs for their brick cheese is at http://www.foremostfarms.com/Commercial/pdfs/Nutritional%20Information/NDS_Brick.pdf.) But if 8 ounces of such a brick cheese are used for a 4-square pizza, then the total fat would be 8 x 9 = 72 grams. However, if you look at the Buddy's Nutrition information at http://www.buddyspizza.com/nutrition.asp?Category=3, four slices of a cheese pizza--that is, one 4-square cheese pizza--would have 4 x 14 grams of total fat, or 56 grams. That would be equivalent to 6.22 ounces of the brick cheese, not 8 ounces. I think you can now see why I choose not to rely on the Buddy's Nutrition information. Where there is one roach, there will be others.

I sent an email today to Buddy's thanking them for their fast responses to my questions. I received a nice reply shortly thereafter.

Peter


Peter,

Lol, leave it up to you to figure that kind of stuff out and you will.  :-D  Thanks for figuring out that where there is one roach there is another in not relying on Buddy’s Nutrition information. 

Do you have any other questions you want me to ask when I send a thank you to Buddy’s?

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on October 31, 2012, 04:32:43 PM
Do you have any other questions you want me to ask when I send a thank you to Buddy’s?

Norma,

I have learned that you have to be careful how to ask questions and how many to ask so that you come across as a consumer rather than someone who is trying to reverse engineer the other person's products. What I would have liked to ask is the protein content of their flour. Maybe you can tell them that you have a mild gluten intolerance and can handle some flours but not others, and that it would help you to know the protein content of their flour.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on October 31, 2012, 04:43:25 PM
Norma,

I have learned that you have to be careful how to ask questions and how many to ask so that you come across as a consumer rather than someone who is trying to reverse engineer the other person's products. What I would have liked to ask is the protein content of their flour. Maybe you can tell them that you have a mild gluten intolerance and can handle some flours but not others, and that it would help you to know the protein content of their flour.

Peter

Peter,

I understand from all what you posted before that the inquires should be as a consumer and not someone that wants to try and reverse engineer their products.  I asked the questions by telling them I am an old lady and watches what she eats, etc, etc.  I won’t even get into all what I said. 

I will email and thank Buddy’s and also write what you posted. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 01, 2012, 08:40:44 AM
At CBS Detroit and video can be seen of the Taste Test of ‘Kid Rock’s Badass Detroiter Pizza’ from Buddy’s after the page loads all the way  The video is on top of the article. The video doesn’t show a lot.  What the video does show is close-ups of the pizza and how greasy the box was the pizza was placed in.  It had American Lager beer in the crust.

http://detroit.cbslocal.com/2011/06/24/taste-test-kid-rocks-badass-detroiter-pizza/

I guess ‘Kid Rock’s Badass Detroiter Pizza’ from Buddy’s was only available at the Six Mile Location, or maybe it was a Buddy’s test pizza.

I also had some questions about the Florine Mark pizza at Buddy’s, but it would be about the fat content of the cheese blend and if it really is a dieters dream.  I won’t ask those questions now.  I know I don’t understand enough about Nutrition Facts to compare the Florine Mark pizza with brick/fat-free cheese to the Specialty Gluten Free Cheese pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 01, 2012, 12:36:45 PM
The next dough was mixed using 0.80% IDY.  I used the hottest water my tap water would get, but it isn’t as hot as is it at market (my water heater isn’t turned up as high at home to save on electricity).  The final dough temperature was 86.3 degrees F.  The final dough weight when loosely balled was 278 grams.  The dough was finished mixing at 12:07 PM.  When I went to place the dough in the steel pan the dough needed a few minutes to relax before being able to be spread to the edges of the steel pan.  The final spreading of the dough was at 12:19 PM.  There are a few dark pieces on the dough from my steel pan.  The lid is on the steel pan now.  The ambient temperature of my kitchen is 71 degrees F.

I am not sure if I should take pictures of the dough in the pan at one hour intervals or not. 

I just wanted to note that I used the rest of my IDY that was in my freezer for the last dough.  Last Friday I had opened a new package of IDY at market and did bring some home and put it in my freezer.  The new IDY is what I used for this dough.  I don’t know if that will make any difference or not, but that is why I am posting about it.

Norma   
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 01, 2012, 02:30:09 PM
I took my facuet tap waters hottest temperature just to see what it was in a plastic cup that already had hot running water in it.  The temperature of that hot tap water was 116.1 degree F.  I waited for 2 hrs. after I had the dough stretched in the steel pan and then patted it down.  The dough did rise, but not as much as I thought it would.  The two pictures of the dough in the steel pan is before I patted the dough down with my fingers and after I patted/punched it down.  The dough wanted to get a few air bubbles under the dough, so I just lifted the dough up a little to let them out.   

I grated 8 ounces of the Eddie’s brick cheese with my hand grater.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 01, 2012, 02:42:55 PM
I just received a reply to the email I had sent Buddy’s late yesterday afternoon.

This is what it said.

Norma,

We will be offering pizzas in our Michigan Great Lakes Collection (to include the Lake Huron – my personal favorite!) until the end of the year.

We offer gluten free pizzas and I have included a copy of our Gluten Free menu – see attachment. According to the label for our flour, in 100g of flour the protein content is 12.2g.

We look forward to your visit. Have a wonderful weekend,

The email has the persons name and position at Buddy’s if anyone wants that information.  Buddy’s sent me an pdf attachment, for their in store gluten free product menu, but I am not sure if that is what Buddy’s gave me the protein content for.  I am a little bit confused on that because I hadn’t asked about a gluten free product.

Let me know if I should ask for clarification, or if the protein content would be for the regular flour Buddy’s uses for their regular square pizza.   

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 01, 2012, 03:09:50 PM
I just received a reply to the email I had sent Buddy’s late yesterday afternoon.

This is what it said.

Norma,

We will be offering pizzas in our Michigan Great Lakes Collection (to include the Lake Huron – my personal favorite!) until the end of the year.

We offer gluten free pizzas and I have included a copy of our Gluten Free menu – see attachment. According to the label for our flour, in 100g of flour the protein content is 12.2g.

We look forward to your visit. Have a wonderful weekend,

The email has the persons name and position at Buddy’s if anyone wants that information.  Buddy’s sent me an pdf attachment, for their in store gluten free product menu, but I am not sure if that is what Buddy’s gave me the protein content for.  I am a little bit confused on that because I hadn’t asked about a gluten free product.

Let me know if I should ask for clarification, or if the protein content would be for the regular flour Buddy’s uses for their regular square pizza.   

Norma

Norma,

After I suggested the protein question to ask, I wondered if Buddy's would divert your attention to their gluten-free pizzas. As you may recall from the podcast you referenced yesterday, Mr. Jacobs spoke at some length about trying to offer a really good gluten-free pizza. However, since the customer service rep at Buddy's mentioned "flour" with a protein content of 12.2% in the latest response, I think he or she meant flour, not a gluten-free mix. Out of curiosity, I took a look at the King Arthur gluten-free pizza crust mix at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1349880881159.pdf. As you can see, the product is called a "mix", not a "flour". Also, in the case of the KA pizza crust mix, the protein is only one gram for a sample size of 36 grams. For 100 grams, the protein content would be 2.78 grams. I also took a look at the Domino's gluten-free pizza Nutrition Facts at https://order.dominos.com/en/assets/derived/pdf/nutri-info-glutenfreecrust.pdf and noted a similar protein profile. Importantly, in the case of the Domino's Nutrition Facts, they apply to a baked pizza, not a mix.

To be on the safe side, I would ask for clarification. I would tell them that you are definitely open to trying their gluten-free pizza but that, in the past, you haven't been crazy over most gluten-free products and that you would like to try one of their regular pizzas. And, for that reason, you want to know if the protein content you were given was for the flour used in their regular pizzas.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 01, 2012, 03:28:51 PM
Norma,

After I suggested the protein question to ask, I wondered if Buddy's would divert your attention to their gluten-free pizzas. As you may recall from the podcast you referenced yesterday, Mr. Jacobs spoke at some length about trying to offer a really good gluten-free pizza. However, since the customer service rep at Buddy's mentioned "flour" with a protein content of 12.2% in the latest response, I think he or she meant flour, not a gluten-free mix. Out of curiosity, I took a look at the King Arthur gluten-free pizza crust mix at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1349880881159.pdf. As you can see, the product is called a "mix", not a "flour". Also, in the case of the KA pizza crust mix, the protein is only one gram for a sample size of 36 grams. For 100 grams, the protein content would be 2.78 grams. I also took a look at the Domino's gluten-free pizza Nutrition Facts at https://order.dominos.com/en/assets/derived/pdf/nutri-info-glutenfreecrust.pdf and noted a similar protein profile. Importantly, in the case of the Domino's Nutrition Facts, they apply to a baked pizza, not a mix.

To be on the safe side, I would ask for clarification. I would tell them that you are definitely open to trying their gluten-free pizza but that, in the past, you haven't been crazy over most gluten-free products and that you would like to try one of their regular pizzas. And, for that reason, you want to know if the protein content you were given was for the flour used in their regular pizzas.

Peter

Peter,

I also wondered when I asked about how much protein Buddy’s flour had in it if they might try to divert me to a gluten-free pizza.  I remember from the podcast that Mr. Jacobs spoke about trying to offer really good gluten-free pizza. 

I also thought maybe Administrative/Operations Support lady gave me the correct protein for their flour for Buddy’s regular pizzas, but thought the protein sounded a little to low.  I guess Buddy’s did send my questions to the Administrative/Operations support woman instead of the person that answered me yesterday.

Thanks for the links to the King Arthur gluten-free pizza crust mix and Domino’s gluten-free pizza Nutrition Facts.  I see both of those numbers are really low in protein and much lower than what Buddy’s gave me. 

I will ask for clarification.  Thanks for writing how I should ask for the clarification.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 01, 2012, 03:30:51 PM
I took my faucet tap waters hottest temperature just to see what it was in a plastic cup that already had hot running water in it.  The temperature of that hot tap water was 116.1 degree F.  I waited for 2 hrs. after I had the dough stretched in the steel pan and then patted it down.  The dough did rise, but not as much as I thought it would.  The two pictures of the dough in the steel pan is before I patted the dough down with my fingers and after I patted/punched it down.  The dough wanted to get a few air bubbles under the dough, so I just lifted the dough up a little to let them out.   

Norma,

We don't know where Buddy's proofs its dough balls so there is no way of knowing how high in the pans the flattened dough balls rise. If the dough is proofed near the ovens, then they might rise more, as they also might if we are talking about proofing the dough balls in the dead middle of summer. However, since I have not seen any photos of the Buddy's dough rising 2" or more in the pans, call me skeptical. Remember, also, that we are not talking about all that much dough. I have been studying what member dicepackage reported at Reply 127 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81715.html#msg81715, and it seems to me that there isn't all that much dough in a Buddy's 4-square pizza. I also recall that Jet's uses the same small pan as Buddy's. I have a pretty good idea as to the amount of dough that Jet's uses for the small square pizza, but I haven't yet had a chance yet to revisit the Jet's thread to get a better idea as to the weight losses during the baking of one of their small square pizzas. PizzaHog was nice enough to give some weight data at the Jet's thread. I just haven't had a chance to study it. I was also hoping to have your weight data for comparison purposes.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 01, 2012, 04:01:53 PM
Norma,

We don't know where Buddy's proofs its dough balls so there is no way of knowing how high in the pans the flattened dough balls rise. If the dough is proofed near the ovens, then they might rise more, as they also might if we are talking about proofing the dough balls in the dead middle of summer. However, since I have not seen any photos of the Buddy's dough rising 2" or more in the pans, call me skeptical. Remember, also, that we are not talking about all that much dough. I have been studying what member dicepackage reported at Reply 127 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81715.html#msg81715, and it seems to me that there isn't all that much dough in a Buddy's 4-square pizza. I also recall that Jet's uses the same small pan as Buddy's. I have a pretty good idea as to the amount of dough that Jet's uses for the small square pizza, but I haven't yet had a chance yet to revisit the Jet's thread to get a better idea as to the weight losses during the baking of one of their small square pizzas. PizzaHog was nice enough to give some weight data at the Jet's thread. I just haven't had a chance to study it. I was also hoping to have your weight data for comparison purposes.

Peter


Peter,

I know we don’t know where Buddy’s proofs its dough balls in the pans, or what it looks like, so we have no idea of how high the dough proofs.  I already know from measuring my pan yesterday if Buddy’s uses the same steel pans that I am using the dough wouldn’t rise 2”, or more in the pans.  

I didn’t think to look at dicpackage’s report at Reply 127.  I see that probably isn’t a lot of dough.  It is good you have a pretty good idea as to the amount of dough that Jet’s uses for the small square pizza.  Will be interesting to know what ideas you get from the Jet’s weighs after baking.  I know PizzaHog was nice enough to give you some weight data in the Jet’s thread.  

If you want me to after the bake today, I can always try another attempt at a Buddy’s pizza on Saturday if you want more data points after baking.  I don’t mind at all making these 4-square pizzas.  

On another note, this is how the dough looks in the steel pan in a little over 3 hrs.  I am not sure how long I should wait until I bake it since you posted you really don’t know what Buddy’s dough looks like in the steel pan when it is proofed.

I did ask for clarification about the protein of their regular flour in an email to Buddy‘s.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 01, 2012, 04:12:38 PM
Norma,

I don't see any need for you to alter your plans. We can assess the results of your Buddy's clone pizzas as they evolve. In the meantime, I have been researching bromated flours with a protein content of 12.2%. I have one such flour in mind but I'd like to hear how Buddy's responds before commenting further.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 01, 2012, 04:25:33 PM

Peter,

I just received this email from Buddy’s.   This is what it said.

Norma,

You are most welcome! The protein information provided was for the flour included in our regular pizza crust.

Please note we have received many favorable comments about our Gluten Free pizza. People with Celiac disease have stated it’s the best gluten free pizza they have ever had.

We hope you give it a try when in town.

Safe Travel to Michigan!!

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 01, 2012, 04:59:39 PM
The protein information provided was for the flour included in our regular pizza crust.

Norma,

That is very good news. Good news indeed.

Now we know that we are looking for a bromated flour with a protein content of 12.2%. Most flours with such a protein content tend to be winter wheat flours and not bromated. A good example is the Better for Bread/Harvest King flour. And winter flours are often supplemented with ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) as an alternative to potassium bromate. However, there are a few spring wheat flours or blends of flours that are bromated and have a protein content of around 12.2%. But they are not the names that we readily recognize. But one such flour that has a recognizable name and seems to meet the 12.2% protein content and is also bromated is the Occident flour from ConAgra (http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/products/flour-and-grains/flours/144033/conagra-occident-flour-bleached-50lb). That flour is described at page 5 of the ConAgra pdf brochure at http://buyersguide.foodproductdesign.com/media/54/library/FPDconagramills3.pdf. You will see that the exact protein number recited is 12.2%. It is also the number given in the Nutrition Facts for the Occident flour at the Dutch Valley website. So, if you have any Occident flour left, that would be the one you perhaps should try for a future Buddy's clone. An alternative might be the Full Strength flour softened by some all-purpose flour to get a final protein content of 12.2%.

If I recall correctly, I believe ConAgra has a flour mill near where Jon (Jackitup) lives in Minnesota and from whom he has purchased the Occident flour. Minnesota is only a couple of states away from Michigan.

As you may also recall, the Occident flour is also one that Dave (dmcavanagh) really likes and frequently recommends.

Peter

EDIT (5/26/16): For replacements for the above inoperative ConAgra link, see http://www.naturalproductsinsider.com/bgpl/FPDconagramills3.pdf or http://www.beatriceco.com/pdf/CM0509%20ConAgra_Mills_Brochure.pdf
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 01, 2012, 05:41:09 PM
Norma,

At one time it was reported that Buddy's was using a thick "Coarse Grind Pepperoni" sold under the brand name Margherita and with the product code #38616-31329. That is a product sold by Armour Eckrich, whose website for the pepperoni and other pizza toppings is http://johnmorrellfoodgroup.com/foodservice-page/products-page--2/pizza-toppings. If you download the list of Pizza Toppings products via the link provided for that purpose, you will find the abovementioned Margherita pepperoni product.

Since you are a professional, if you can use the use the Contact Us feature, it would help if you could get the Nutrition Facts for that product. That might help us analyze the data that dicepackage gave us. It will not be necessary that you tell them that you are an "old lady" with concerns over the fat content of products or that you have a slight gluten intolerance :-D.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 01, 2012, 06:11:51 PM
Norma,

That is very good news. Good news indeed.

Now we know that we are looking for a bromated flour with a protein content of 12.2%. Most flours with such a protein content tend to be winter wheat flours and not bromated. A good example is the Better for Bread/Harvest King flour. And winter flours are often supplemented with ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) as an alternative to potassium bromate. However, there are a few spring wheat flours or blends of flours that are bromated and have a protein content of around 12.2%. But they are not the names that we readily recognize. But one such flour that has a recognizable name and seems to meet the 12.2% protein content and is also bromated is the Occident flour from ConAgra (http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/products/flour-and-grains/flours/144033/conagra-occident-flour-bleached-50lb). That flour is described at page 5 of the ConAgra pdf brochure at http://buyersguide.foodproductdesign.com/media/54/library/FPDconagramills3.pdf. You will see that the exact protein number recited is 12.2%. It is also the number given in the Nutrition Facts for the Occident flour at the Dutch Valley website. So, if you have any Occident flour left, that would be the one you perhaps should try for a future Buddy's clone. An alternative might be the Full Strength flour soften by some all-purpose flour to get a final protein content of 12.2%.

If I recall correctly, I believe ConAgra has a flour mill near where Jon (Jackitup) lives in Minnesota and from whom he has purchased the Occident flour. Minnesota is only a couple of states away from Michigan.

As you may also recall, the Occident flour is also one that Dave (dmcavanagh) really likes and frequently recommends.

Peter


Peter,

I am glad the protein content of Buddy’s flour for their regular pizza is good news.  I really didn’t think I would get anywhere with my questioning, but with your help and Buddy’s help, it got us there.

That is really good news that the Occident flour seems to meet the 12.2% protein content.  I forgot what protein content the Occident flour was.  That is a flour that I have readily available at my local Country Store and also though my supplier.  I can use the Occident flour for my future Buddy’s clone attempts.  I do recall the Occident flour is also the flour that Dave really likes and frequently recommends.  


Norma,

At one time it was reported that Buddy's was using a thick "Coarse Grind Pepperoni" sold under the brand name Margherita and with the product code #38616-31329. That is a product sold by Armour Eckrich, whose website for the pepperoni and other pizza toppings is http://johnmorrellfoodgroup.com/foodservice-page/products-page--2/pizza-toppings. If you download the list of Pizza Toppings products via the link provided for that purpose, you will find the abovementioned Margherita pepperoni product.

Since you are a professional, if you can use the use the Contact Us feature, it would help if you could get the Nutrition Facts for that product. That might help us analyze the data that dicepackage gave us. It will not be necessary that you tell them that you are an "old lady with concerns over the fat content of products or that you have a slight gluten intolerance :-D.

Peter

I will try to get the Nutrition Facts for the “Coarse Grind Pepperoni” sold under the brand name Margherita.  Thank for the website.  I know it won’t be necessary that I tell them that I am an “old lady" with concern over the fat content of products, or that I have a slight gluten intolerance.  That slight gluten intolerance sure helped though.  :-D I would have never thought of that for questioning Buddy’s.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 01, 2012, 06:15:30 PM
The pizza was baked 4:45 hrs. after the dough was stretched in the steel pan.   I watered down November’s sauce a little and used 3.8 ounces of sauce on this attempt.  The pizza after it was right out of the oven weighed 1 lb. 4.1 ounces, or 568 grams.  It can been seen what scraps were leftover in the steel pan.  I tried to weigh the scraps and they weighed 0.80 gram, but I will get more scraps out of the pan when I wipe it with paper towels.  The thickness of the pizza can kind of be seen by the ruler.

This attempt was baked right about 500 degrees F on the bottom rack in my home oven.  It took exactly 15 minutes to baked the pizza. 

In my opinion the pizza was very tasty.  I ate two slices.  The caramelized edges were really good.  I had a bottle of Hop Devil with the two slices.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 01, 2012, 06:16:40 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 01, 2012, 06:17:35 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 01, 2012, 06:18:42 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 01, 2012, 06:20:35 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 01, 2012, 06:21:38 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 01, 2012, 06:22:52 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 01, 2012, 06:51:21 PM
Norma,

Can you show me the dough formulation you used for your latest Buddy's clone pizza, and tell me whether you scaled the weight of the dough ball back to its value without the bowl residue compensation? I'd like to do some calculations to determine the dough losses for that pizza during baking.

How did you like the brick cheese as compared with the prior efforts? The pizza itself looks quite good. Do you see any areas where you would like to see improvement?

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 01, 2012, 08:34:35 PM
Norma,

Can you show me the dough formulation you used for your latest Buddy's clone pizza, and tell me whether you scaled the weight of the dough ball back to its value without the bowl residue compensation? I'd like to do some calculations to determine the dough losses for that pizza during baking.

How did you like the brick cheese as compared with the prior efforts? The pizza itself looks quite good. Do you see any areas where you would like to see improvement?

Peter


Peter,

This is the print out sheet from the expanded dough calculation tool that I used for this last pizza.  The only think I changed from my last attempt was to change the amount of IDY.  As I posted at Reply 103 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220772.html#msg220772  the dough weight was 278 grams.  That was the dough weight and I didn’t have to cut any off.  A little dough stuck to my fingers, flat beater and the bowl where the dough was mixed.  I weighed everything out carefully, so I don’t think I made any mistakes in weighing ingredients. 

I really am not sure if I like the Eddie’s brick cheese better than the previous blends I have tried.  The Eddie’s brick cheese melts well and is buttery, but when the pizza starts to cool down the cheese seems more rubbery than other blends.  I really don’t think brick cheese alone has the taste as some of the cheddars/or blends I have tried.  To try and explain what that means is I think the brick cheese doesn’t have as much flavor, but it still was very good.  Since I never really tasted a Buddy’s pizza, I have no idea how their brick cheese tastes.  Even when I tasted the Eddie’s brick cheese today when I was grating the cheese it was good, but not as good as some cheddars eaten plain.

To answer your question on any improvements I would like to achieve is I would like a little more airy crust.  I am not sure if that would come from where I placed the pizza in the oven, oven temperature, rack position, how I mixed the dough, how I handled it, or something else.  I also wonder if this pizza was thick enough.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 02, 2012, 09:24:22 AM
Norma,

Based on the numbers you have provided, I calculated that the weight of your latest Buddy's clone pizza was 9.81 ounces (dough) + 8 ounces (brick cheese) + 3.8 ounces (pizza sauce) = 21.61 ounces. There was perhaps a small amount of oil in the dough also but I suspect it would be minor.

You indicated that the baked pizza weighed 568 grams. That is 20.04 ounces. That means that the losses during baking were 21.61-20.04 = 1.57 ounces, or 7.3%. Interestingly, when I was speculating what the losses might be for the Buddy's pizza that dicepackage wrote about, I used 7% as the loss figure. In dicepackage's case, his Buddy's pizza was a pepperoni pizza but I do not believe that there would have been any material losses in the weight of the pepperoni slices because they were beneath the cheese and captured there for the entire bake time. If you are able to get the Nutrition Facts for the thick Margherita pepperoni slices, that should help with the analysis of dicepackage's data.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 02, 2012, 09:41:57 AM
Norma,

Based on the numbers you have provided, I calculated that the weight of your latest Buddy's clone pizza was 9.81 ounces (dough) + 8 ounces (brick cheese) + 3.8 ounces (pizza sauce) = 21.61 ounces. There was perhaps a small amount of oil in the dough also but I suspect it would be minor.

You indicated that the baked pizza weighed 568 grams. That is 20.04 ounces. That means that the losses during baking were 21.61-20.04 = 1.57 ounces, or 7.3%. Interestingly, when I was speculating what the losses might be for the Buddy's pizza that dicepackage wrote about, I used 7% as the loss figure. In dicepackage's case, his Buddy's pizza was a pepperoni pizza but I do not believe that there would have been any material losses in the weight of the pepperoni slices because they were beneath the cheese and captured there for the entire bake time. If you are able to get the Nutrition Facts for the thick Margherita pepperoni slices, that should help with the analysis of dicepackage's data.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks you for doing the calculations for baking weight losses in my recent attempt. 7.3% loss in weight  doesn’t seem like a lot for a pizza that is baked that long. 

It is interesting when you speculated what losses there were for dice package Buddy’s pizza you used 7% as the loss figure.  You sure are good at estimating losses during baking.

I did ask for the Nutrition Facts for “Coarse Grind Pepperoni” sold under the brand name Margherita last evening.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 02, 2012, 09:48:44 AM
Thanks you for doing the calculations for baking weight losses in my recent attempt. 7.3% loss in weight doesn’t seem like a lot for a pizza that is baked that long.  

Norma,

I did wonder whether you forgot to tare the pizza screen while you were weighing the baked pizza on your scale but it seems to me that a pan with sides and with the cheese pressed tightly up against the sides does a better job of containing the pizza during baking and possibly limiting the weight losses.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 02, 2012, 10:17:57 AM
Norma,

I did wonder whether you forgot to tare the pizza screen while you were weighing the baked pizza on your scale but it seems to me that a pan with sides and with the cheese pressed tightly up against the sides does a better job of containing the pizza during baking and possibly limiting the weight losses.

Peter

I don’t think I forgot to tare the pizza screen and pan I used while weighing the bake pizza on my scale.  I just weighed the pizza screen and pan I used and they weighed 14.9 ounces.  That is almost a pound.  The reason for using the screen and pan were so the bottom crust stayed crispy. 

I would think a pizza in a pan would fare better in weigh loss, especially with all the cheese sealing up the crust.  I will weigh my next baked attempt at market, but that might be a faster bake time and maybe wouldn’t be to good to compare the one that was done in my home oven.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 02, 2012, 05:22:20 PM
Norma,

Today, I decided to reread a good part of the Buddy's thread to see if I could come up with any forgotten information or leads or clues that might help you perfect your Buddy's clone pizzas. While I was at it, I decided to update Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436, which contains just about everything I know or have found about the Buddy's dough and pizzas, to reflect the latest information we have on the Buddy's dough and pizzas. As you know, for my reverse engineering and cloning projects, I try to stay as close to the target product as possible, and to rely as much as possible on information that the target company puts out or information from current or former employees. Even then, information can sometimes turn out to be incorrect or inaccurate.

As an example of where I have seen confusion about the Buddy's pizza is the cheese that Buddy's uses. There has been a lot of speculation that Buddy's uses cheddar cheese and other cheese blends that might include cheddar as well as other cheeses. However, from all of my research, I have seen nothing that suggests that Buddy's is using anything other than brick cheese as its main pizza cheese. Buddy's itself has said that it uses brick cheese, on several occasions. Moreover, if you look at a typical Buddy's menu, such as the one at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/Carryout101.pdf, you will note that two of the "Veggies & More" topping options for its square pizzas include Extra Cheese and Cheddar cheese. If the main cheese was cheddar cheese, why would you list Cheddar cheese as an option? If the main cheese were cheddar cheese, you would most likely list Extra Cheese and Brick Cheese.

On the matter of the dough making protocol that Buddy's may be using, I refer you to Reply 95 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73765.html#msg73765. It's possible that over the years Buddy's may have change its dough making protocol, but what is reported in Reply 95 would reflect a workable way of making dough in batches so that orders can be filled throughout the day, even if the last of the dough may be a bit long in the tooth.

As I was rereading the Buddy's thread, I also found the post that first discussed the "double kneading" technique. That post is Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3805.msg31842.html#msg31842. You will also note that in Reply 318 referenced above, a former employee of Buddy's (lufty) made the following statement that I excerpted from a post that he made at the Reddit website: The balls are weighed and placed in the pans loosely stretched and stacked up criss-cross to rise. A few hours later they are stretched out properly, using your thumb to press the corners into the pan a midway up the edge. I believe that statement reflects the "double stretching" technique, even more accurately than what I had been told by the Buddy's Conant employee. You will also note in the video you referenced at http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/19042572/how-to-make-buddys-lake-huron-pizza, starting at 1:47, that the pizza maker discusses what appears to be the double kneading technique. Of course, in actual practice it may be necessary to press or punch the dough down a bit or else accomplish the same result by the way that the cheese and toppings are applied.

In Reply 318, I also excerpted another statement from lufty about the Buddy's pizza sauce, specifically, The sauce is tomato paste, water, and seasoning whisked together ahead of time. Elsewhere, we learned that Buddy's uses Stanislaus products. As is shown at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/products/nutrition-facts, Stanislaus has a Full Red Tomato Paste product. If lufty was loose with the term "paste", Stanislaus also offers basic "super heavy" products under the Saporito brand. 

I also found another post by dicepackage, at Reply 287 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg125814.html#msg125814, that shows a typical Buddy's dough ball that he purchased. He noted that the dough ball felt very wet. However, that might have been because the dough had undergone an extended fermentation. Regrettably, dicepackage forgot to weigh the dough ball. So close but yet so far.

I thought that you would also get a kick out of this post: Reply 281 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg121334.html#msg121334.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 02, 2012, 07:18:07 PM
Norma,

Today, I decided to reread a good part of the Buddy's thread to see if I could come up with any forgotten information or leads or clues that might help you perfect your Buddy's clone pizzas. While I was at it, I decided to update Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436, which contains just about everything I know or have found about the Buddy's dough and pizzas, to reflect the latest information we have on the Buddy's dough and pizzas. As you know, for my reverse engineering and cloning projects, I try to stay as close to the target product as possible, and to rely as much as possible on information that the target company puts out or information from current or former employees. Even then, information can sometimes turn out to be incorrect or inaccurate.

As an example of where I have seen confusion about the Buddy's pizza is the cheese that Buddy's uses. There has been a lot of speculation that Buddy's uses cheddar cheese and other cheese blends that might include cheddar as well as other cheeses. However, from all of my research, I have seen nothing that suggests that Buddy's is using anything other than brick cheese as its main pizza cheese. Buddy's itself has said that it uses brick cheese, on several occasions. Moreover, if you look at a typical Buddy's menu, such as the one at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/Carryout101.pdf, you will note that two of the "Veggies & More" topping options for its square pizzas include Extra Cheese and Cheddar cheese. If the main cheese was cheddar cheese, why would you list Cheddar cheese as an option? If the main cheese were cheddar cheese, you would most likely list Extra Cheese and Brick Cheese.

On the matter of the dough making protocol that Buddy's may be using, I refer you to Reply 95 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg73765.html#msg73765. It's possible that over the years Buddy's may have change its dough making protocol, but what is reported in Reply 95 would reflect a workable way of making dough in batches so that orders can be filled throughout the day, even if the last of the dough may be a bit long in the tooth.

As I was rereading the Buddy's thread, I also found the post that first discussed the "double kneading" technique. That post is Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3805.msg31842.html#msg31842. You will also note that in Reply 318 referenced above, a former employee of Buddy's (lufty) made the following statement that I excerpted from a post that he made at the Reddit website: The balls are weighed and placed in the pans loosely stretched and stacked up criss-cross to rise. A few hours later they are stretched out properly, using your thumb to press the corners into the pan a midway up the edge. I believe that statement reflects the "double stretching" technique, even more accurately than what I had been told by the Buddy's Conant employee. You will also note in the video you referenced at http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/story/19042572/how-to-make-buddys-lake-huron-pizza, starting at 1:47, that the pizza maker discusses what appears to be the double kneading technique. Of course, in actual practice it may be necessary to press or punch the dough down a bit or else accomplish the same result by the way that the cheese and toppings are applied.

In Reply 318, I also excerpted another statement from lufty about the Buddy's pizza sauce, specifically, The sauce is tomato paste, water, and seasoning whisked together ahead of time. Elsewhere, we learned that Buddy's uses Stanislaus products. As is shown at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/products/nutrition-facts, Stanislaus has a Full Red Tomato Paste product. If lufty was loose with the term "paste", Stanislaus also offers basic "super heavy" products under the Saporito brand. 

I also found another post by dicepackage, at Reply 287 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg125814.html#msg125814, that shows a typical Buddy's dough ball that he purchased. He noted that the dough ball felt very wet. However, that might have been because the dough had undergone an extended fermentation. Regrettably, dicepackage forgot to weigh the dough ball. So close but yet so far.

I thought that you would also get a kick out of this post: Reply 281 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg121334.html#msg121334.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks so much for rereading Buddy’s long thread for leads or clues that might help me perfect my Buddy’s clone pizzas.

I do know for your reverse engineering and cloning projects, you try to stay as close to the target product as possible.  I also know how precise you are.  I know that even with finding a lot information about a pizza, some of that information can turn out to be incorrect or inaccurate.

I can understand the confusion about the cheese/or cheeses Buddy’s might use.  I think only members that can really taste a Buddy’s cheese pizza can tell you if there is any other cheese other than brick cheese on Buddy’s pizza.  I know when even a relatively small amount of cheddar is added to mozzarella it can give the pizza a different flavor profile.  I would guess that would also apply to Buddy’s cheese pizzas.  I see what you mean when you told me to note the options which include Extra Cheese and Cheddar cheese.  I sure don’t think the main cheese would be cheddar, but do you think Buddy’s does use any cheddar with the brick cheese?  You might be right that even cheddar as an option rules any cheddar is used.  I sure don’t know how Buddy’s brick cheese tastes, but my Eddie’s brick cheese doesn’t have a lot of flavor.  Maybe I could ask Foremost Farms for a sample of their brick cheese to find out how their brick cheese tastes.  I could tell them I want to try and make some Detroit style pizzas.  I do purchase Foremost Farms mozzarella loafs every week, so they might send me a sample.  Do you think if I could obtain a sample of Foremost Farms brick cheese that might get us anywhere?

I looked at what you posted at Reply 5 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3805.msg31842.html#msg31842 and just called the Conant St. location about ordering a partially baked frozen pie.  The lady that I spoke to said yes Buddy’s does ship partially frozen pies, but they are very busy right now.  The lady said she would talk to the manager and the manager will call me back.  I asked how much the pizza would cost and she said the manager will figure that out from the town I live in.  It sure would be interesting to get a real Buddy’s pizza, but you know how I feel about parbaked pizzas.  :-D  Do you think a parbaked Buddy’s pizza would help at all with the cheese/or cheese blend and also with the sauce?  I am familiar with Stanislaus products and do use the Saporito “super heavy” sauce.  I also can get a sample of Full Red Tomato Paste from Stanislaus.  Stanislaus was very helpful in sending me a sample before. 

I see what was posted about the “double kneading” techniques from your links.

I must have missed that post by dicepackage at Reply 287.  I wonder why Buddy’s told me they don’t sell dough balls.  I can see in dicepackage’s that Buddy’s dough ball looked very wet.  That sure was so close, but yet so far away in dicepackage not weighing the dough ball. 

I did get a kick out of the post At Reply 281.  I guess they felt sorry for some little old lady that was coming to Buddy’s to try out their pizza for the first time with her companions. 

That sure was a great review of Buddy’s thread.  I have a lot to think about.  Hopefully it will all stay in my brain. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 02, 2012, 07:19:26 PM
I went to my supplier today to pick up flour and while I was there I asked how much the bromated Occident flour costs.  They told me a 25 lb. bag costs 8.55 and a 50 lb. bag is even cheaper.  Until I try out the bromated Occident flour for a Buddy’s clone attempt I just purchased a smaller bag at our local Country Store.  I might try the Occident flour this weekend.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 02, 2012, 08:31:53 PM
Norma,

I can see how there can be some Doubting Thomases on the matter of the cheese(s) used by Buddy's on its 4-square and 8-square pizzas. I have seen articles written by others that said that Buddy's was using cheese that was a "secret blend". See, for example, the quoted material in Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg62915.html#msg62915. You will see a similar reference to the "secret blend" in the Eat Your World article that you recently referenced at http://eatyourworld.com/destinations/united_states/michigan/detroit/what_to_eat/square_pizza. To add to the mystery, when Buddy's revamped their website, they no longer talked about using brick cheese, Stanislaus tomatoes or double kneading. Later, after stating on their menus that they were using cheeses from Foremost Farms, they deleted references to that company. If you look at a typical Buddy's menu, such as the one at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/Carryout101.pdf, you will see that Buddy's only uses the term "cheese". Unfortunately, I could no longer find a copy of the menu that preceded the replacement menu.

All of the above made me suspicious that Buddy's changed the ingredients and methods they used to make their square pizzas. To help get to the bottom of these matters, I had the following email exchanges with Buddy's in April, 2011:

Me: As one who pays attention to his diet, I have noted that the Nutrition page of your website has not been completed for some time. Can you please indicate when that section will be completed, or possibly send me that information if it is in a form that can be transmitted to me, possibly as an attachment?  One area of specific interest is the type of cheese used on your square pizzas. I understand that the amounts of fat in cheeses can vary quite widely, as well as the salt and cholesterol content.

Buddy's: Thank you for taking the time to email us and for your inquiry.  We use Wisconsin Brick cheese for our pizza.  We have alternatives available at all of our locations:  Fat Free Mozzarella & Lactose Free Veggie Soy Cheese. We additionally are offering at our Farmington Hills location, a casein free cheese. We are still working on our Nutrition page and it may take up to a year to complete.

Me: I have noticed a lot of changes at your website. I hope that you are still using much the same ingredients that have made your pizzas such a success. I have been seeing places change things like their sauces and now have a lot of chemicals in them that I find distasteful. I hope that you are still using the Stanislaus tomatoes that taste so fresh. I remember seeing the Stanislaus tomatoes mentioned at your website but no more.

Buddy's: We have not changed any of our core ingredients for sauces. Our website has changed to offer more information than we had before.

As I mentioned before, I cannot recall any instance in which Buddy's itself, or anyone on its behalf, said that Buddy's used a cheese "blend". If they are using a blend, that would be something of recent origin (after April, 2011). However, many of the posts in the Buddy's thread that debated the Buddy's cheese(s) were before April, 2011 and precede the current Buddy's menu by quite some time.

With respect to your assessment of the Eddie's brick cheese, I can only tell you that PizzaHog observed in the Buddy's thread that there are apparently different brick products, apparently including some brick cheeses that are not made in Wisconsin. When I looked at the photos that you provided on the Eddie's cheese, I did not see any made in Wisconsin statement or logo.

If you can get a sample of the Foremost Farms brick cheese, that might be helpful since we know at least at one time Buddy's used their brick cheese. For all we know, they may still be doing so. You will also recall that the fat content of the brick cheese that Buddy's reported to you recently is the same as what appears in Foremost Farms specs for their brick cheese.

Ordering a Buddy's pizza, especially if you do that after sampling the Foremost Farms brick cheese, would be instructive in my opinion.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 02, 2012, 09:33:28 PM
Peter,

Your Reply at #28 make a lot of sense.  

I just decided to go to the Wayback Machine to see what I could find.  

I don’t know how much information the wayback machine has on Buddy’s pizza, but this is where I used the wayback machine so far. http://web.archive.org/web/20061105024446/http://www.buddyspizza.com/menu.htm  As can been seen in the menu back in November 5, 2006 There is no mention of cheddar cheese in Veggies & More back then.  

The same menu is even there is you go back to 2003 http://web.archive.org/web/20030205061311/http://www.buddyspizza.com/menu.htm

If you click on the left side sidebar on The Secret is out, a pizza can be seen in 2005.  That pizza sure looks thinner than some that I have seen. http://web.archive.org/web/20041010231355/http://www.buddyspizza.com/secret.htm

There is also says this:

Our dough is made from scratch daily in each of our kitchens.
We use only premium grade flour in our dough's secret recipe. Carefully double kneading the dough and allowing it to rise for 1 to 1-1/2 hours helps to create Buddy's famous crunchy crust.
We use almost one pound of cheese on our large, 8-square pizzas. This brick cheese is made especially for Buddy's in Wisconsin and is shredded by hand for the perfect melt.
Our produce is received fresh daily and all of our vegetable toppings are hand sliced.
We use Margherita brand pepperoni - a lean, high-quality, more flavorful, course-ground sausage. We place it under the cheese to prevent charring from the high baking heat.
Our pizza sauce is made with a blend of Stanislaus premium tomato products, herbs and spices (our own little secret for more than 50 years.)
All of Buddy's Black Steel pizza pans have to be specially seasoned. Some have been around for more than 50 years.

In July 24, 2007 it tells about Buddy’s people, with the article at the end of the page talking about Bob Jacobs.
http://web.archive.org/web/20070724173859/http://www.buddyspizza.com/buddyspeople.htm  In the same date at http://web.archive.org/web/20070617045733/http://www.buddyspizza.com/menu.htm it says the Super Pizza is only made with Wisconsin brick cheese.

I haven’t thought of using the Wayback Machine to see if I can find out more about Buddy’s, but maybe I will.  Did you search all though the Wayback Machine to see what you kind find out about Buddy’s pizza?

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 02, 2012, 10:08:47 PM
Norma,

I specifically remembered the material at http://web.archive.org/web/20041010231355/http://www.buddyspizza.com/secret.htm since that is what was formerly on the Buddy's website. I pretty much memorized that information by heart although I forgot to mention the Margherita pepperoni a few posts ago. I also remember the article about Bob Jacobs--when he had hair.

I did not do any Wayback searches since I had done a fair amount of research as the Buddy's thread evolved.

Do you think Buddy's is hiding something about the cheese they are using on their square pizzas and that they are really using a "secret blend"?

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 02, 2012, 10:29:10 PM
Norma,

I specifically remembered the material at http://web.archive.org/web/20041010231355/http://www.buddyspizza.com/secret.htm since that is what was formerly on the Buddy's website. I pretty much memorized that information by heart although I forgot to mention the Margherita pepperoni a few posts ago. I also remember the article about Bob Jacobs--when he had hair.

I did not do any Wayback searches since I had done a fair amount of research as the Buddy's thread evolved.

Do you think Buddy's is hiding something about the cheese they are using on their square pizzas and that they are really using a "secret blend"?

Peter

Peter,

You have a ‘memory like an elephant’.  I sure don’t know how you can memorized all that information by heart.  Yep, Bob Jacobs did have hair back then.

I have no idea if Buddy’s is hiding something about the cheese they are using on their square pizzas and if they might really use a “secret blend”.  The only way I might know that information is if try to get a sample of the Foremost Farms brick cheese and also order a parbaked pizza from Buddy’s.  Only then would I be able could compare how the Foremost Farms brick cheese tastes alone when baked on a Buddy‘s clone, in comparison to a Buddy’s cheese pizza.

That is unless you figure out a out another way to get the information about the cheese/or cheese blend.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 02, 2012, 11:04:37 PM
Peter,

I just went to the Foremost Farms website and downloaded this PDF, (then scanned it) about Foremost Farms Brick Cheese.  It says it tastes mild to piquant.  I wonder if that means the more it is aged it tastes different.  Maybe we are going to have the same problems as the Mack’s thread.  I would say the Eddie’s Brick Cheese is mild tasting, when eating it plain, or baked on a Buddy’s clone attempt. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 03, 2012, 07:14:38 AM
I did send Foremost Farms an email about their brick cheese and asked the question if their brick cheese changes in flavor profile as it ages.  I also noted on the Foremost Farms website that the brick cheese (under the quality American style varieties) only come in 40-pound blocks).  That could be a problem in trying to get a sample.  http://foremostfarms.com/Commercial/Cheese/Quality-American-Style.php 

I will wait to see if I get a reply from Foremost Farms.  I did try to send more questions, but the contact feature only allows you to use 500 characters. I might also call Foremost Farms during their regular business hours.  I did say in what I wrote, that I was trying to make a Detroit style pizza.

I also wrote Mandi Cheese Shop and also asked them if their Eddie’s brick cheese changes in flavor profile as it ages and also if their Eddie’s brick cheese is made in Wisconsin.  I really don’t think their Eddie’s brick cheese is made in Wisconsin, but wanted clarification on that.  Mandi Foods, Inc is a food broker though. 

Buddy’s didn’t call me back about purchasing a parbaked pizza, but that might be a good thing, so I can think over this whole thing about how brick cheese might taste.  If Buddy’s does call me back, at least I can find out how much it costs for a cheese pizza and shipping.

I see under brick cheese at Wikipedia that brick cheese can change in flavor as it ripens.

Brick cheese is a cheese from Wisconsin, USA, made in brick-shaped form. The color ranges from pale yellow to white, and the cheese has a sweet and mild flavor when young, and matures into a strong ripe cheese with age. It is medium-soft, crumbles easily and is somewhat sticky to the knife.

Origins of brick cheese:

Brick cheese was originally produced in Wisconsin. The cheese making process was derived from white American Cheddar that is cultured at a slightly higher temperature which results in a marginally higher fat content and a slightly altered protein structure. The resultant "brick cheese" has a slightly softer taste and a distinctly sharper finish.

Regulations & FDA Codes

The US Code of Food Regulations defines what the fat and moisture content of brick cheese must be. This Standard of Identity does not take into account that brick cheese should be surface ripened with B. linens. Brick is an American cheese, made in rectangular loaves, that was first produced in Wisconsin in 1877 by John Jossi, a cheese maker of Swiss descent. The loaf-shaped cheese displays numerous fine holes when it is sliced. When young, it is sweet and mild; after aging, it tastes somewhat like a mild Limburger or cheddar, and has been compared to a Danish Tilsit.
Corynebacterium and Arthrobacter are the necessary bacterial genera for smear cheese ripening. B. linens, while present in many smear cultures, is not typical. All cheeses, regardless of variety, should be well wrapped and kept in the warmest section of the refrigerator. (The refrigerator door is often one of the warmest spots).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brick_cheese

On the chowhound, questions and answers about brick cheese.

http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/425915

Another description of brick cheese.

http://www.gourmetsleuth.com/Dictionary/B/Brick-cheese-5784.aspx

Also what is brick cheese under this article (halfway down in the page).

http://www.cheesemaking.com/Brick.html

If there are so many different flavors in brick cheese, I would think that could create a problem in trying to replicate Buddy‘s taste of their cheese on a pizza.   :-\

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 03, 2012, 05:09:54 PM
I am still looking at pictures of Buddy’s pizzas to see if I can see how thick they might be.

This article shows some of Buddy’s Motor City Pizzas back in 2011.  http://www.detroitmoxie.com/home/2011/6/24/my-first-food-love-buddys-pizza-announces-new-pies.html  I don’t think those pies look very thick.

Also in this bloggers post it shows some small slices of the same Motor City Pizzas from Buddy’s/

http://www.detroitmommies.com/2011/06/happy-65th-birthday-to-buddy%E2%80%99s-pizza/

These are more pictures of Buddy’s pizza on this blog.

http://www.urbaneapts.com/blog/2011/06/28/buddys-pizza-celebrates-65-tasty-years/

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 03, 2012, 05:14:48 PM
I wasn’t going to make another Buddy’s clone attempt today, but the bag of bromated Occident flour was calling to me to try it out. 

I mixed a little bit differently this time and mixed the Kosher salt in with the water in the mixer bowl.  I did use the flat beater again (only because I am not making enough dough to try and use the dough hook).  I mixed on speeds one and two on my mixer and guess since this is a lower protein flour that is why the dough turned out almost like a batter.  I then took my spatula and did more mixing.  The final dough temperature was 83.7 degrees F.  The weight of the dough ball was 274 grams.  The dough ball was put into the pan at 4:33 PM.  Since I want to try and speed up this attempt, I turned my oven light on and am tempering the dough in the oven.  After 15 minutes in the oven I spread the dough out to the edges most of the way.  I will wait and see how long this dough in the takes to rise in the oven.  I guess I will have to do a punch down on the dough and let it rise again though.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 03, 2012, 07:02:30 PM
I am still looking at pictures of Buddy’s pizzas to see if I can see how thick they might be.

This article shows some of Buddy’s Motor City Pizzas back in 2011.  http://www.detroitmoxie.com/home/2011/6/24/my-first-food-love-buddys-pizza-announces-new-pies.html  I don’t think those pies look very thick.

Norma

You might check out this radio interview with Wes Pikula of Buddy's: http://www.pizzaradio.com/podcasts/ask042908.mp3. The impression I got from the interview is that the specialty pizzas with the multi-cheese blends are thinner than the regular Buddy's square pizzas.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 03, 2012, 07:52:36 PM
Norma,

You might check out this radio interview with Wes Pikula of Buddy's: http://www.pizzaradio.com/podcasts/ask042908.mp3. The impression I got from the interview is that the specialty pizzas with the multi-cheese blends are thinner than the regular Buddy's square pizzas.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the link to the link to the radio interview with Wes Pikula of Buddy's!  I will listen to it.

Norma

Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 03, 2012, 07:58:02 PM
I took the temperature in the oven (where the dough was tempering in the steel pan) and it was 95.8 degrees F (that was with the oven light on).  I was trying to get the dough to proof  in 2 hrs. (with the punch down) and it did seem to work well.  The dough was nice and bubbly both times and smelled really good.

I used 8 ounces of the Eddie’s brick cheese again and 4.7 ounces of November’s sauce combined with market sauce. There would have been enough of November’s sauce leftover, but I accidently hit the container with the sauce in the fridge and the sauce container flipped and then the lid came off.  I had a mess in my fridge and even some of the sauce hit my shoes.  That is why I had to add some of the market sauce. The oven was set right under 500 degrees F and the pizza was baked on the bottom rack.  The pizza took about 14 minutes to bake.  I don’t know where my brain was, but it took me 3 1/2 minutes to weigh the baked pizza.  It weighed 1 lb. 4.5 oz., or when I changed the scale to grams it weighed 581 grams.  There was a little cheese that dripped in the steel pan that wasn’t weighed.  I only used the screen to weigh the pie this time and I made sure I did tare that out and also the mixing bowl it was sitting on.  

I don’t know why the rim crust got higher this time.  I don’t know if it was from the flour, or how I tempered the dough in the oven, or something else, but it can be seen on the ruler the side crust did get higher.  

The Buddy’s clone attempt came out of the oven at 6:55 PM.

The crumb on this pizza was the best yet, in that it was nice and airy and very tender to eat.  I sure don’t know why that was either.

I am happier in this Buddy’s attempt then other ones, but sure don’t know what I did that was so different.  Since this was such a very fast pizza from beginning to end, I wouldn’t have thought the taste would be that good.  I am glad the bromated Occident flour was calling for me to try it today.  Now if I can only repeat what I did.  

I did really do something stupid in trying to document this process today though.  When I put my memory stick in the computer (from the first few pictures) I forgot to take it out and the pictures of the dough tempering are just on my camera and not on my memory stick.  When I went to take the picture of the cheese and sauce on the pizza, before the bake, that is when my camera said no memory left.  That is when I realized that the memory stick was still in my computer from the other pictures I took of how the dough looked before tempering more.  I have no idea where the cord is for my camera and don’t think it even works anymore.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 03, 2012, 07:59:39 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 03, 2012, 08:00:53 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 03, 2012, 08:02:00 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 03, 2012, 08:05:00 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 03, 2012, 08:05:41 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 03, 2012, 09:14:36 PM
Peter,

I did enjoyed the radio interview with Wes Pikula very much that you posted at Reply 139 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg221274.html#msg221274   Did you know that Buddy’s changed over to trans fat free oil?  I wonder what kind of oil that is.  I listened over and over, but couldn’t hear what Wes said when he stated how much Buddy’s pays for a 50 lb. bag of flour.  I just had my hearing checked a few months ago and the ear/nose/throat specialist said my was hearing was like a teenager, so I don’t know why I could not catch that.  Did you catch what he said about the flour price?  

I also heard Wes say that the specialty pizzas are thinner and they also apply less cheese on them, but the cheese blends do give a better taste on the pizzas.  I guess that solves the mystery about why the different specialty pizzas look thinner.  At least that is one thing I don’t have to wonder about.

Norma

Edit:  Never mind the flour price question, I listened some more without backround noises, and I hear Wes say they went from 8-9 dollars for a 50 lb. bag up to something in the low thirties.  8-9 dollars for a 50 lb. bag of flour sure was cheap.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 04, 2012, 08:53:45 AM
I don’t know why the rim crust got higher this time.  I don’t know if it was from the flour, or how I tempered the dough in the oven, or something else, but it can be seen on the ruler the side crust did get higher.  

Norma,

It looks like you are making good progress.

Since you changed two major variables at one time, it is hard to say which one was primarily responsible for the results you achieved. It could have been the flour because of its lower protein content and tendency to produce a softer crust, or it might have been the use of your oven to proof the dough and cause it to rise faster, or it might have been a combination of both changes. You would have to drop one of the variables and repeat the experiment to see if that provides the answer. Even then, you might have to do further testing to try to replicate the results to confirm them.

I am glad that you were able to get the desired results using about 70% hydration. When I was rereading the Buddy's thread, I saw that a hydration of about 75% was getting good results among the members. It could well be that the combination of using the lower protein bromated Occident flour and the oven to proof the dough at a higher temperature produced the more open and airy dough without having to resort to a higher hydration. It might be a good idea at some point to do further testing along the lines mentioned above to see how the dough formulation and processing methods might work at market where you may not have something equivalent to your home oven to proof the dough. At some point, you might also want to try using a lower bake temperature, maybe along the lines that Buddy's pizza uses, to see if you can replicate their pizzas using the lower bake temperature.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 04, 2012, 09:29:33 AM
I did enjoyed the radio interview with Wes Pikula very much that you posted at Reply 139 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg221274.html#msg221274   Did you know that Buddy’s changed over to trans fat free oil?  I wonder what kind of oil that is.  I listened over and over, but couldn’t hear what Wes said when he stated how much Buddy’s pays for a 50 lb. bag of flour.  I just had my hearing checked a few months ago and the ear/nose/throat specialist said my was hearing was like a teenager, so I don’t know why I could not catch that.  Did you catch what he said about the flour price?  
Edit:  Never mind the flour price question, I listened some more without backround noises, and I hear Wes say they went from 8-9 dollars for a 50 lb. bag up to something in the low thirties.  8-9 dollars for a 50 lb. bag of flour sure was cheap.

Norma,

FYI, I found the radio interview with Wes Pikula by conducting a Google search using his name. Using a person's name for search purposes often turns up good articles or other material where the person is quoted. Those materials frequently describe the company the person works for and its products and methods. Vendors of equipment and other items used by the company especially like to promote their products through articles like that.

The trans fat issue mentioned in the video is with respect to hydrogenated solid fats that Buddy's apparently was using to fry things before they saw the writing on the wall that trans fats were going to be banned in some places. Buddy's did not use those solid fats in relation to their pizzas. Canola oil is mentioned in the video. It is not a solid fat and has no trans fats. I was told some time ago that the Auburn Hills Buddy's location I called was using soybean oil in some form for oiling their square pans (see Reply 137 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136786/topicseen.html#msg136786). Another member (Grilled Pizza) reported at Reply 251 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg104178/topicseen.html#msg104178 that the Warren Buddy's location was using canola oil. So, maybe the different Buddy's locations have the option of using different oils. I believe that the old Crisco is an example of a solid fat that had trans fats. That product has been reformulated to significantly reduce or eliminate the trans fats. Some of our members have reported that they use Crisco or an equivalent vegetable shortening to grease their pans but Buddy's does not do so.

I heard the same price that you heard for the flour that Wes Pikula mentioned in the video. Apparently, Buddy's has enough volume to get the flour by the truckload.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 04, 2012, 09:47:05 AM
Norma,

It looks like you are making good progress.

Since you changed two major variables at one time, it is hard to say which one was primarily responsible for the results you achieved. It could have been the flour because of its lower protein content and tendency to produce a softer crust, or it might have been the use of your oven to proof the dough and cause it to rise faster, or it might have been a combination of both changes. You would have to drop one of the variables and repeat the experiment to see if that provides the answer. Even then, you might have to do further testing to try to replicate the results to confirm them.

I am glad that you were able to get the desired results using about 70% hydration. When I was rereading the Buddy's thread, I saw that a hydration of about 75% was getting good results among the members. It could well be that the combination of using the lower protein bromated Occident flour and the oven to proof the dough at a higher temperature produced the more open and airy dough without having to resort to a higher hydration. It might be a good idea at some point to do further testing along the lines mentioned above to see how the dough formulation and processing methods might work at market where you may not have something equivalent to your home oven to proof the dough. At some point, you might also want to try using a lower bake temperature, maybe along the lines that Buddy's pizza uses, to see if you can replicate their pizzas using the lower bake temperature.

Peter

Peter,

I know I changed 3 variables this time, with the one variable that you didn’t mention of adding the salt to the warm water.  I guess that wouldn’t change things too much though. 

If I had to guess (and I know you don’t like guesses for variables) it probably was a combination of the lower protein flour (making a stickier dough) and the oven to proof the dough.  The dough was sticker yesterday when using the bromated Occident flour.

I saw on the Buddy’s thread that a hydration of about 75% gave good results.  I am not ready yet to go up to that high of hydration. 

I plan to make at least two dough balls tomorrow for testing at market on Tuesday.  I can use Hatco unit for tempering the dough in the pans to see what happens with that.  I have a stainless steel rack (with 3 shelves) in my shed for the Hatco unit that I can stack steel pans on.  I also ordered some of the bigger steel pans yesterday, so I can try out the Buddy’s clone 8 square pizzas in the future.  I don’t know if it was reported before here on the forum, but the shipping did get cheaper when ordering more pans. 

Since my brother is coming to visit this week, later on this week or maybe over next weekend, I might try a Buddy’s clone pizza in my mom’s gas oven at a lower temperature to see what happens.  I also want to see what my brother thinks of the Buddy’s clone pizzas.  My mom really likes them.  Maybe I will receive the bigger steel pans by that time. 

BTW, no call back about a Buddy’s partially frozen parbaked pizza either.  I might call later about that.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 04, 2012, 10:03:11 AM
Norma,

FYI, I found the radio interview with Wes Pikula by conducting a Google search using his name. Using a person's name for search purposes often turns up good articles or other material where the person is quoted. Those materials frequently describe the company the person works for and its products and methods. Vendors of equipment and other items used by the company especially like to promote their products through articles like that.

The trans fat issue mentioned in the video is with respect to hydrogenated solid fats that Buddy's apparently was using to fry things before they saw the writing on the wall that trans fats were going to be banned in some places. Buddy's did not use those solid fats in relation to their pizzas. Canola oil is mentioned in the video. It is not a solid fat and has no trans fats. I was told some time ago that the Auburn Hills Buddy's location I called was using soybean oil in some form for oiling their square pans (see Reply 137 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136786/topicseen.html#msg136786). Another member (Grilled Pizza) reported at Reply 251 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg104178/topicseen.html#msg104178 that the Warren Buddy's location was using canola oil. So, maybe the different Buddy's locations have the option of using different oils. I believe that the old Crisco is an example of a solid fat that had trans fats. That product has been reformulated to significantly reduce or eliminate the trans fats. Some of our members have reported that they use Crisco or an equivalent vegetable shortening to grease their pans but Buddy's does not do so.

I heard the same price that you heard for the flour that Wes Pikula mentioned in the video. Apparently, Buddy's has enough volume to get the flour by the truckload.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for telling me how you found the radio interview with Wes Pikula.  I also used Wes Pikula’s name in a Google search but didn’t find that radio interview.  I did note that Wes said at one article that the seasoning of the steel pans did make a better tasting crust though in one article I found.

The blue steels are "just like a great black skillet pan," says Wes Pikula, Buddy's vice president of operations. After they're seasoned, "they have a way of capturing the flavors in the metal" in a way that other pans he has tried do not.

I have been using corn oil to oil the steel pans.  Do you think I should try Canola oil?

I also forgot to mention that the Eddie's brick cheese tasted really good on the Buddy's attempt yesterday.  Maybe I am just getting too opinionated from having so much cheddar on Greek style pizza and the boardwalk pizzas.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 04, 2012, 10:06:41 AM
The dough was sticker yesterday when using the bromated Occident flour.

Norma,

I would imagine that the Occident flour has a lower rated absorption than your Kyrol flour. Did you have any problems handling the dough? For example, if you worked in a Buddy's store do you think you could work with the Occident flour dough balls at around 70% hydration? Of course, we know that Buddy's uses mixers in its stores and the dough balls might be more robust and drier than in a home setting, but the relatively high hydration would still be there.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 04, 2012, 10:42:12 AM
Norma,

I would imagine that the Occident flour has a lower rated absorption than your Kyrol flour. Did you have any problems handling the dough? For example, if you worked in a Buddy's store do you think you could work with the Occident flour dough balls at around 70% hydration? Of course, we know that Buddy's uses mixers in its stores and the dough balls might be more robust and drier than in a home setting, but the relatively high hydration would still be there.

Peter

Peter,

I didn’t have a lot of problems handling the dough yesterday, but then I used my spatula in mixing the dough more and also did a few stretch and folds.  The dough was still sticky though and did stick to my fingers some.  I had to work with the dough quickly to get it to ball, before it became a glob and stuck more to my fingers.  As I posted before, I haven’t been able to use my dough hook in my Kitchen Aid mixer because the dough amount is too small.  I want to try and use the dough hook, (after the flat beater tomorrow) to see if that makes any difference since I will be making more dough. 

I guess if Buddy’s is using a higher hydration their commercial mixers would mix the dough much better.  I know my Hobart mixes higher hydration doughs better and my dough balls from market are more robust than my home dough balls.  I would have to test the formulation I am using at market, before I would know how that works.  If I start selling Buddy’s clone pizzas, I will be able to test the dough out at market in the Hobart mixer.  I also guess there are only a few employees that know what goes into Buddy’s dough and how to mix, ball and scale.  I wouldn’t think most employees would know that information.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 04, 2012, 11:08:14 AM
I didn’t have a lot of problems handling the dough yesterday, but then I used my spatula in mixing the dough more and also did a few stretch and folds.

Norma,

I wonder if the dough makers at Buddy's use a fairly high hydration and do some stretch/slap and folds, and that the stretch/slap and folds along with the final fitting of the dough into the pans constitutes "double kneading". As Marlon (bakeshack) mentioned recently at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21730.msg219743.html#msg219743 and also at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21730.msg219822.html#msg219822, being able to trap air in the dough before it ferments is beneficial to the final product. Since the Buddy's clone doughs that you have been making are essentially emergency doughs, and with little time for biochemical gluten development, I would imagine that it would be a good idea to work the dough long enough to get good gluten development so as to better capture and retain the gases of fermentation.

I guess what I am saying is that if you have a good flour (e.g., the bromated Occidental flour), use stretch/slap and folds, etc. ("double kneading"), adequately develop the gluten, and subject the dough to sufficient heat to materially lift the dough, you should get very good results in a Buddy's style pizza.

BTW, I wasn't quite sure from the angles of the photos you posted as to the final height of the dough and finished crust. Can you tell me what the measurements were? In particular, I was wondering whether the risen dough exceeded 2"-3" in the pan.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 04, 2012, 12:39:10 PM
Norma,

I wonder if the dough makers at Buddy's use a fairly high hydration and do some stretch/slap and folds, and that the stretch/slap and folds along with the final fitting of the dough into the pans constitutes "double kneading". As Marlon (bakeshack) mentioned recently at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21730.msg219743.html#msg219743 and also at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21730.msg219822.html#msg219822, being able to trap air in the dough before it ferments is beneficial to the final product. Since the Buddy's clone doughs that you have been making are essentially emergency doughs, and with little time for biochemical gluten development, I would imagine that it would be a good idea to work the dough long enough to get good gluten development so as to better capture and retain the gases of fermentation.

I guess what I am saying is that if you have a good flour (e.g., the bromated Occidental flour), use stretch/slap and folds, etc. ("double kneading"), adequately develop the gluten, and subject the dough to sufficient heat to materially lift the dough, you should get very good results in a Buddy's style pizza.

BTW, I wasn't quite sure from the angles of the photos you posted as to the final height of the dough and finished crust. Can you tell me what the measurements were? In particular, I was wondering whether the risen dough exceeded 2"-3" in the pan.

Peter

Peter,

I also wonder if the dough makers at Buddy’s use a fairly high hydration and do use some stretch/slap and folds, with the final fitting included and if that is what constitutes “double kneading”.  I might imagine them letting the dough sit on the counter for a little, before dividing, scaling and balling.  I don’t know how we are going to be able to find that information though.  I would imagine with all the dough balls Buddy’s makes they would want the process as simple as possible.

The links to what Marlon posted are good examples of  how air can be trapped in the dough before it ferments.  I know I have tried some of those methods before when trying high hydration doughs. 

I know that what I have been making in my last Buddy’s clone attempts have been essentially emergency doughs and your idea of if the dough is worked enough to get good gluten development that is a good idea to capture the gases of fermentation.  The flavor of my crusts have seemed to me to be very good tasting, even though what I have been trying have been like an emergency dough.  That still puzzles me.

I wish I had the pictures of the final height of the dough after proofing, but those are still on my camera (with a 5 picture limit on storage without a memory stick).  I didn’t use a ruler to measure that, but the dough was full of bubbles and did rise decently.  This is a picture with a measuring tape of a leftover slice for my mom, but I think the crust shrank since it has been in the fridge.  That measurement isn’t even 1 ½”.  I will try to take better measurements in the future, but that crust looked higher to me, just by looking at it with the naked eye.

Do you have any suggestions on what to try for a one day cold ferment Buddy’s clone for Tuesday, or should I try to keep everything the same, except for the tempering of the dough in the Hatco unit?  I probably will make 3 dough balls.

Norma 
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 04, 2012, 01:36:34 PM
Norma,

The flavor of my crusts have seemed to me to be very good tasting, even though what I have been trying have been like an emergency dough.  That still puzzles me.

I can see several places where flavor is imparted to the finished crust and also to the slices as a whole. First, with 0.80% IDY, and only a brief fermentation time, you should taste some of the natural flavor of the yeast and also the natural wheaty flavor of the flour. Second, the corn oil in the pan also imparts flavor to the finished crust as it bakes into the crust and forms a crispy bottom. Third, the caramelization and crisping up of the brick cheese at the edges of the pan provides both flavor and texture. Finally, from what I have read about brick cheese, it is often described as being 'buttery". Add up all of these flavor components and I can see how the pizza would be quite tasty. To this, I would add that if you ever decide to use ADY instead of IDY, you would get even more yeast flavor because of the larger percent of dead yeast cells for the ADY.

I forgot to mention it earlier but if you want to come closer to what Buddy's uses in its pans in terms of oil, you might try soybean oil or canola oil. Also, at some point, you might consider using white cheddar cheese or a cheddar cheese blend. Even though you liked the flavor of the brick cheese better the last time, I think you were perhaps conditioned to the flavors and textures of the cheddar cheeses and blends that you have used in making the many Greek pizzas and the Mack's and Papa Gino's clone pizzas. If you had started out with the brick cheese and used it over a long period of time, you might have been conditioned to preferring that cheese over the cheddar cheese and cheddar cheese blends. When I reread the Buddy's thread, I saw that there was a great appeal among the members of cheddar cheese and cheddar cheese blends.
 
Do you have any suggestions on what to try for a one day cold ferment Buddy’s clone for Tuesday, or should I try to keep everything the same, except for the tempering of the dough in the Hatco unit?  I probably will make 3 dough balls.

I think I would try to replicate at work that which you did in your home oven with the last Buddy's clone pizza. At some later date, you can always try other formulations and methods. One thing you might try is to use the poppy seed trick on one of the dough balls at the time the dough is spread into the pan. I'd like to see if the poppy seed trick works for a spread out dough in a pan. You would measure the spacing of the poppy seeds when the dough is done rising and you use it to make a pizza. As before, you would note the finished dough temperature and the time that the dough goes into the pan and the time when you decide to make the pizza. If the poppy seed trick works, then we can use the information to see if we can come up with a cold ferment version of the Buddy's clone dough.

For your additional information, I calculated the losses during your baking of the last pizza. The unbaked pizza weight was 9.67 ounces of dough + 8 ounces of brick cheese + 4.7 ounces of pizza cheese = 22.37 ounces. The weight of the pizza after baking was 20.49 ounces (581 grams), or a loss of 1.88 ounces. That translates to an 8.4% loss.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 04, 2012, 02:41:25 PM
Norma,

I can see several places where flavor is imparted to the finished crust and also to the slices as a whole. First, with 0.80% IDY, and only a brief fermentation time, you should taste some of the natural flavor of the yeast and also the natural wheaty flavor of the flour. Second, the corn oil in the pan also imparts flavor to the finished crust as it bakes into the crust and forms a crispy bottom. Third, the caramelization and crisping up of the brick cheese at the edges of the pan provides both flavor and texture. Finally, from what I have read about brick cheese, it is often described as being 'buttery". Add up all of these flavor components and I can see how the pizza would be quite tasty. To this, I would add that if you ever decide to use ADY instead of IDY, you would get even more yeast flavor because of the larger percent of dead yeast cells for the ADY.

I forgot to mention it earlier but if you want to come closer to what Buddy's uses in its pans in terms of oil, you might try soybean oil or canola oil. Also, at some point, you might consider using white cheddar cheese or a cheddar cheese blend. Even though you liked the flavor of the brick cheese better the last time, I think you were perhaps conditioned to the flavors and textures of the cheddar cheeses and blends that you have used in making the many Greek pizzas and the Mack's and Papa Gino's clone pizzas. If you had started out with the brick cheese and used it over a long period of time, you might have been conditioned to preferring that cheese over the cheddar cheese and cheddar cheese blends. When I reread the Buddy's thread, I saw that there was a great appeal among the members of cheddar cheese and cheddar cheese blends.
 
I think I would try to replicate at work that which you did in your home oven with the last Buddy's clone pizza. At some later date, you can always try other formulations and methods. One thing you might try is to use the poppy seed trick on one of the dough balls at the time the dough is spread into the pan. I'd like to see if the poppy seed trick works for a spread out dough in a pan. You would measure the spacing of the poppy seeds when the dough is done rising and you use it to make a pizza. As before, you would note the finished dough temperature and the time that the dough goes into the pan and the time when you decide to make the pizza. If the poppy seed trick works, then we can use the information to see if we can come up with a cold ferment version of the Buddy's clone dough.

For your additional information, I calculated the losses during your baking of the last pizza. The unbaked pizza weight was 9.67 ounces of dough + 8 ounces of brick cheese + 4.7 ounces of pizza cheese = 22.37 ounces. The weight of the pizza after baking was 20.49 ounces (581 grams), or a loss of 1.88 ounces. That translates to an 8.4% loss.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for pointing to the several places where the flavor is imparted in the whole crust and also to the slices as a whole in the attempted almost emergency doughs I have tried.  I didn’t think about the natural flavor of the yeast and also the natural wheat flavor of the flour.  I did know from the Greek pizzas I have made and also the Sicilian pizzas that the corn oil in the pan imparts a certain flavor in the crust.  I agree that the caramelization at the edges provides great flavor and texture too.  I really don’t know a lot about brick cheese, but it was buttery on my attempts.  I could try ADY at some point in my experiments.  I guess there was never really a consensus on the Buddy’s thread if ADY was used.  I would have thought years ago that Buddy’s might have used fresh yeast, but never saw any mention of that. 

I do have soybean oil and might try that in some of my future attempts.  When do you think I should consider using white cheddar cheese, or a cheddar cheese blend.  I might just try the Eddie’s brick cheese this week to see what Steve thinks since he also has tried all my pies with a cheddar blend.  Maybe Steve can tell me if he likes the brick cheese alone. 

I will try the poppy seed trick on one of the dough balls at the time the dough is spread into the pan.  I also would like to see if the poppy seed trick works for a spread out dough in a pan.  I will keep all the same temperatures and times. 

Thanks for doing the calculations again on the weight loss after the bake.  I wonder why the last Buddy’s attempt lost more weight. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 04, 2012, 04:51:59 PM
Norma,

I could try ADY at some point in my experiments.  I guess there was never really a consensus on the Buddy’s thread if ADY was used.  I would have thought years ago that Buddy’s might have used fresh yeast, but never saw any mention of that.
 
You are correct in that we do not know what kind of yeast Buddy's uses. In 1946, when Buddy's started making pizza, both fresh yeast and ADY were available to bakers. ADY was invented by Fleishchmann's during World War II. Since you were an adult then and no doubt baking, you may even remember when ADY was introduced to bakers. There is no reason why Buddy's can't be using ADY but, with IDY so readily available, I would imagine that IDY is what Buddy's is using.

When do you think I should consider using white cheddar cheese, or a cheddar cheese blend. I might just try the Eddie’s brick cheese this week to see what Steve thinks since he also has tried all my pies with a cheddar blend.  Maybe Steve can tell me if he likes the brick cheese alone.
I agree that it is best to wait to get Steve's opinion on the brick cheese. You have a lot of options available to you on cheeses.

I wonder why the last Buddy’s attempt lost more weight.
It's hard to know why the latest Buddy's clone pizza lost more weight than the prior effort. Your most recent Buddy's clone pizza weighed a bit more to begin with, mainly because you used more pizza sauce. Also, you fermented the dough at a higher temperature. That might have resulted in some additional evaporation in the dough. It is also possible that there was more moisture loss in the sauce during baking since there was more of it and because it sits exposed on top of the cheese. Also, because the dough rose more than the last effort, that may have changed the thermodynamics of the dough during baking, resulting in greater loss.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 04, 2012, 05:30:12 PM
Norma,
 
You are correct in that we do not know what kind of yeast Buddy's uses. In 1946, when Buddy's started making pizza, both fresh yeast and ADY were available to bakers. ADY was invented by Fleishchmann's during World War II. Since you were an adult then and no doubt baking, you may even remember when ADY was introduced to bakers. There is no reason why Buddy's can't be using ADY but, with IDY so readily available, I would imagine that IDY is what Buddy's is using.
I agree that it is best to wait to get Steve's opinion on the brick cheese. You have a lot of options available to you on cheeses.
It's hard to know why the latest Buddy's clone pizza lost more weight than the prior effort. Your most recent Buddy's clone pizza weighed a bit more to begin with, mainly because you used more pizza sauce. Also, you fermented the dough at a higher temperature. That might have resulted in some additional evaporation in the dough. It is also possible that there was more moisture loss in the sauce during baking since there was more of it and because it sits exposed on top of the cheese. Also, because the dough rose more than the last effort, that may have changed the thermodynamics of the dough during baking, resulting in greater loss.

Peter

Peter,

I sure don’t remember when ADY was introduced to bakers.  I am old, but not that old.  :-D  I wonder how we can find out if Buddy’s is using ADY or IDY.  I guess it really doesn’t matter though.  Since you know about pizzerias than I do, do you have any idea of what the percentages of pizzerias might used ADY?

Thanks for explaining some of the reasons why you thought my latest Buddy’s pizza lost more weight than the prior effort.  The idea of the dough rising more and of that changing thermodynamics during baking is interesting.   

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 04, 2012, 05:34:39 PM
On my continuing journey to understand more about Buddy’s pizza, a little more information about how Buddy’s and Detroit style pizzas started and pictures of the pies.

http://www.michigan.org/blog/guest-blogger/all-square-a-history-of-detroit-style-pizza/

I am curious if the dough recipe that Anna Gunerra borrowed from her Sicilian mother can be found anywhere on the web.

http://detroitstylepizza.com/history/

http://www.lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=35487

A video of Buddy’s pizza on YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=yL8t46mStE8

I also found what is said in this article interesting. 

http://www.pizzamarketplace.com/article/196277/Pizza-champion-working-to-put-Detroit-style-in-the-spotlight

The dough contains enough hydration that it can't be spun. The moisture, Randazzo says, helps with its texture, which is crunchy on the edges and softer in the middle.

There is a lot that sets Detroit-style pizza apart – the flavor, texture, crust, cheese. The dough is completely different. You don't ball it up, press it out and bake it," he said. "It's completely different from traditional pizza. It has a wow factor."

Another descriptions at this article.

Buddy’s pizza certainly shares a local cousin in Burt’s or Pequod’s with its airy crust topped with a halo of caramelized cheese and fresh, never-canned ingredients. Still there’s a lightness to Buddy’s crust which is itself a profusion of olive oil-soaked perforations topped with dollops of peppery sweet sauce and a gooey Wisconsin brick cheese of singular elasticity that’s never been duplicated locally.

http://resto.newcity.com/2007/08/30/a-pie-worth-the-drive-looking-north-for-inspiration/

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 04, 2012, 05:44:59 PM
Norma,

I sure don’t remember when ADY was introduced to bakers.  I am old, but not that old.  :-D
I threw that in figuring that with all the Limoncellos you were drinking today you wouldn't notice :-D.

I wonder how we can find out if Buddy’s is using ADY or IDY.  I guess it really doesn’t matter though.  Since you know about pizzerias than I do, do you have any idea of what the percentages of pizzerias might used ADY?
I think we would need insider information on the type of yeast Buddy's uses. I have never seen any numbers as to what percent of the pizzerias use ADY. But your question is a good one.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 04, 2012, 09:25:02 PM
Norma,

I threw that in figuring that with all the Limoncellos you were drinking today you wouldn't notice :-D.

Peter


Peter,

I had enough of those Limoncellos to make me feel good, but not enough to not know what I was doing or reading.  Throw that kind of stuff at me anytime, because I sure got a good chuckle out of it.     :-D

Back to the business of me understanding more about Buddy's pizza. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 05, 2012, 09:15:05 AM
So the saga continues for me to find out more what Buddy’s pies look like and any other information I can find, since I don’t live near a Buddy’s. 

Some more pictures of Buddy’s pizza, if the below pictures are clicked on.  There are more than four pictures of Buddy’s pizza from the link below.  Some of the cheese on the edges of Buddy’s pizzas looks browned more than my attempts, some of the edges look crisper, Buddy’s pizza don’t look all that thick, the crumb doesn’t look really airy to me, there looks to be a gum line on one of the pizza in the crumb (I think picture 7) and the cheese does look like the Eddie’s brick cheese when the pizzas are baked.  I wonder why the one  picture that shows a sign that says Cheese Pizza say Motor City Cheese Blend & Tomato Basil Sauce.  I also wonder if the Tomato Basil Sauce is like the Saporito product I use with basil leaves in the tomato sauce.  If that picture can’t be found, it is the one that the sign says Coney Dog Pizza.  I really can’t tell by the sign, (because there is a glare on the top left of it), but what is the G something on there?  I copied that picture and am posting it.

https://foursquare.com/seandolinar/checkin/508c2da6e4b0d2cf8b334aab?s=5CjQBLdu2zopiv4YrB5Lz65YJNQ&ref=tw  (I needed to scroll down to see the picture first four pictures on this linked then started by clicking on the first picture.)

If anyone is interested in looking at all the pizzas at Buddy’s and other foods, start by clicking on the first picture.  I think there are about 30 some pictures at Buddy’s.

I found those pictures at https://twitter.com/buddyspizza under Buddy's Pizza ‏@buddyspizza
Now that sounds fun. RT @seandolinar: Detroit Pizza! #PizzaExplosionTour2012 (@ Buddy's Pizza) http://4sq.com/RpmxBg

This also is a picture of the Pubs of Motor City Detroit Poster.  “Bring the Motor City to your home with an original Pubs of Motor City Poster featuring the one and only original Buddy’s Pizza“

If any of the links from different posters on Buddy’s twitter are clicked on, more pictures of Buddy‘s pizza can be seen.  This is what is recent on Buddy’s twitter account. 

Maybe my last attempt really wasn’t right in how airy the crumb looked and maybe the hydration really isn’t a lot more then 70%.   

I copied the one picture to show the crumb, incase something happens to the links.  I also could copy the other pictures and post them if anyone is interested.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 05, 2012, 09:40:02 AM
Norma,

You will drive yourself crazy if you try to rationalize the different appearances of Buddy's pizzas as shown in the Buddy's pizza photos all over the Internet. Even if you knew of all of the brands of ingredients used by Buddy's and exactly how their dough is made, and for how long and at what temperatures they bake their pizzas, you most likely wouldn't be able to replicate their pizzas in your home oven setting or even with your deck oven at market. I have never seen a photo of a Buddy's pizza that was baked in a deck oven before they went to conveyor ovens, but I wouldn't be surprised if such a pizza looked different than ones that Buddy's now makes in its conveyor ovens. Pizzas conform to the laws of chemistry, physics and thermodynamics, not the wishes of the pizza maker.

The best you can do is try to come reasonably close to a real Buddy's pizza and try to make the best version you can given your particular operating environment. It may even turn out that your version is better than a real Buddy's pizza. You shouldn't beat yourself up because you can't come up with an exact replica.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 05, 2012, 10:44:18 AM
Norma,

You will drive yourself crazy if you try to rationalize the different appearances of Buddy's pizzas as shown in the Buddy's pizza photos all over the Internet. Even if you knew of all of the brands of ingredients used by Buddy's and exactly how their dough is made, and for how long and at what temperatures they bake their pizzas, you most likely wouldn't be able to replicate their pizzas in your home oven setting or even with your deck oven at market. I have never seen a photo of a Buddy's pizza that was baked in a deck oven before they went to conveyor ovens, but I wouldn't be surprised if such a pizza looked different than ones that Buddy's now makes in its conveyor ovens. Pizzas conform to the laws of chemistry, physics and thermodynamics, not the wishes of the pizza maker.

The best you can do is try to come reasonably close to a real Buddy's pizza and try to make the best version you can given your particular operating environment. It may even turn out that your version is better than a real Buddy's pizza. You shouldn't beat yourself up because you can't come up with an exact replica.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for posting I will drive myself crazy if I keep trying to rationalize the different appearances of Buddy’s pizzas.

I guess I will just try to do the best I can, with my goal of having a decent Buddy’s clone pizza to sell at market.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 05, 2012, 10:48:16 AM
I called Buddy’s again yesterday to see about them shipping me a parbaked Buddy’s pizza.  The lady told me to call back about 10:00 AM this morning.  I did call Buddy’s and the lady told me they ship though FedEx and I would need to give them a day in advance to get the pizza ready for shipping if I decided to order one.  She also told me they ship the parbaked pizza in dry ice and the approximate cost for that is 45.00, plus the cost for the pizza to my area where I live.  She told me they wouldn’t know the real cost until the day the pizza is shipped.  The lady also told me it would take FedEx two to three days to deliver to my home from the time of shipping from Buddy‘s.  I asked the lady if the Buddy’s pizza that is shipped would taste fresh and she said many people do order Buddy’s pizza to be shipped and they are satisfied that they do taste like a freshly baked Buddy’s pizza. 

I have to give purchasing a parbaked Buddy’s pizza a lot of thought, because that is a lot of money for one pizza.  I also asked if they also ship dough balls and she said no they don’t sell dough balls.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 05, 2012, 10:51:06 AM
I just received this email from Mandi Cheese Shop.  This is what it said.

Good morning Norma,

I am happy to hear your cheese arrived on time, and in good condition! Thank you for letting us know. Eddie's Brick Cheese is made by Great Lakes Cheese in Wisconsin. As brick cheese ages the flavor does get stronger, however, it is a mild cheese to begin with. As for comparing Eddie's Brick Cheese with Foremost Farms Brick Cheese, the ingredients for both cheeses seem to be the same. I do see that Foremost Farms lists their brick cheese as "Firm, stringy" while Eddie's Brick is semi-soft with an open texture. I hope this information helps! Please let me know if you have any questions or concerns.

Best Regards, Kayla Kinskey Mandi Cheese Shop

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 05, 2012, 10:56:23 AM
Norma,

I was reading a Buddy's Yelp review recently where a diner described the Buddy's cheese as "nice, robust and stinky". I laughed when I read that because I thought she was perhaps trying to describe the attributes of brick cheese.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 05, 2012, 11:33:52 AM
Norma,

I was reading a Buddy's Yelp review recently where a diner described the Buddy's cheese as "nice, robust and stinky". I laughed when I read that because I thought she was perhaps trying to describe the attributes of brick cheese.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me about a Buddy’s Yelp review that you recently read.  As the lady described Buddy’s cheese as "nice, robust and stinky" I would guess that Buddy’s brick cheese is aged.  That sure gave me a laugh too.  Same problems as the boardwalk thread in getting the cheese/or cheese blend right.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 05, 2012, 05:45:10 PM
I mixed enough dough for 3 Buddy’s clone attempts.  The dough was mixed by dissolving the salt into the water, then mixing with the flat beater and then the dough hook.  The dough was still sticky, but not as sticky as when just using the flat beater.  The final dough temperature was 78.3 degrees F.  With a few stretch and folds it became more manageable.  I then put a little flour on the table to be able to scale and ball the dough balls.  Each dough ball weighed 277 grams.  I just put the poppy seeds on the three dough balls to see how much they ferment until tomorrow when I try to temper them in the steel pans in the Hatco unit.  I think this dough is fermenting pretty fast.  From the time I mixed the dough this morning until I took the pictures at market the poppy seeds already have started spreading.   

If anyone wants me to post the print sheet from the formulation I can, but it is the same one I used in my one attempt, but I just used the expanded dough calculation tool for 3 dough balls.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 05, 2012, 05:47:04 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 05, 2012, 05:47:57 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Skee on November 06, 2012, 11:34:16 AM
Each dough ball weighed 277 grams.
Are you using an 7x10 or 8x10 pan?  Will you please take a photo of the finished crust edge to show the height?  I'm doing an 80% hydration dough today with a 10-hr room-temp rise, and either 375 or 400g per 7x10 pan, and I'll post some pics this evening.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 06, 2012, 09:01:44 PM
Are you using an 7x10 or 8x10 pan?  Will you please take a photo of the finished crust edge to show the height?  I'm doing an 80% hydration dough today with a 10-hr room-temp rise, and either 375 or 400g per 7x10 pan, and I'll post some pics this evening.

Skee,

I am using a 8x10 steel pan shown at Reply   http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16473.0.html

I will try to resize all of the pictures of the 3 pies I made today and post all of them tomorrow, but these are two pictures of the heights of two of the pizzas I make today.  I used different tempering methods for 3 pies though today.

Are you sure your steel pans are 7x10 inches?  I had thought my pans also were smaller, but when measuring the top edges of my pans are 8x10 inches.  

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 07, 2012, 07:49:16 AM
The tests on the 3 Buddy’s clone dough balls were a little bit confusing, but the 3 pizzas tasted good.  I was going to try three different tempering methods, but guess I only tried two.  The Hatco unit was used for the tempering of the doughs in the steel pans, but no humidity was added (I can add humidity in the Hatco unit by adding water in the reservoir).  I hadn’t thought of it, but didn’t put any lid or aluminum foil on the first dough in the pan (I was just trying to watch to see how it fermented).  After about 15-20 minutes, I checked on the dough in the pan and found there was a dry skin on top of the dough.  I then covered the pan with the lid.  The first dough didn’t have any punch down.  The second dough did have aluminum foil put on top of the steel pan, but that dough also formed a skin, but not as bad.  The second dough in the steel pan was punched down after it has risen one time and then left to proof again.  The final pizzas from the two methods really weren’t much of any difference.  The third dough was just left to rise in the steel pan and it also formed a skin with the plastic lid.  No punch down was done in the third dough.

I used two different oils to oil the steel pans.  For the first pizza peanut oil was used.  For the second and third pizzas corn oil was used.  I didn’t purchase any Canola oil yet to try.  None of my bottom crusts were crunchy.  Steve liked the way the bottom crusts were, because he likes soft crusts.  I also liked them, but don’t think Buddy’s crusts are that way.  The way I have read that they are supposed to be is crunchy.  I am not sure of how to get the bottom crusts more crunchy.  All of the crumbs in the pizzas were very tender.

The one dough was left to warm-up for an hour and the second two doughs were only left at room temperature a very short time.  Each dough ball opened very easily with a tiny bit of bench flour.  The second two doughs were cold when they were opened.

Poppy seed spacing were used on two doughs when they were put in the steel pans, but when trying to put poppy seeds on dough that is floured a little, (from opening the dough balls) it sure is hard to get the poppy seeds to stay in one place and stick.  I asked Steve what he thought was going to happen with the poppy seed spacing and he predicted that the poppy seeds probably would move closer together than the usual poppy seed spacing that the poppy seeds move apart more.  Steve was right that the poppy seed spacing did come closer together after the dough fermented more.  The Hatco unit was kept at about 94-96 degrees F.  It didn’t seem to matter how long the dough is proofed in the Hatco unit, or if there was a punch down and fermenting more.  The heights of all the baked pizzas were about the same.

I used my regular pizza sauce from market on all these pizzas and used 4 ounces of sauce on all of the three pizzas.  On all three pizzas 8 ounces of cheese were used, but in the last pizza Steve and I tried out a blend of 2 cheeses.  That is why the rim and top cheeses were browner.  On the third pizza a blend of Land O Lakes Italian Blend and the Eddie’s brick cheese were used 50/50.  Steve likes the taste of brick cheese on a baked pizza.  He also tasted the brick cheese plain and said the brick cheese is mild.  Steve said the brick cheese gives a buttery taste on the baked pizzas.

The weights of all 3 pizzas were.

First pizza.  1 lb. 3.8 ounces
Second pizza. 1 lb. 4.1 ounces
Third pizza 1 lb. 4.2 ounces.

All of three pizzas took about 12 minutes to bake.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 07, 2012, 07:50:48 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 07, 2012, 07:51:47 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 07, 2012, 07:53:02 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 07, 2012, 07:54:10 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 07, 2012, 07:59:36 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 07, 2012, 08:01:08 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 07, 2012, 08:04:09 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 07, 2012, 08:05:47 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 07, 2012, 08:06:58 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 07, 2012, 08:08:28 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Jackitup on November 07, 2012, 08:27:46 AM
Looks great Norma!!
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 07, 2012, 10:01:54 AM
Looks great Norma!!

Thanks Jon!

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 07, 2012, 01:02:39 PM
Norma,

I agree that the pizzas look good.

I am a bit confused about the fermentation protocols for the three dough balls? Can you summarize what they were, and also can you correlate the three dough balls with the pizzas shown in the photos? Also, did you bake some of the pizzas when the dough was cold?

Finally, can you tell me the bake temperatures you used to bake the pizzas?

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 07, 2012, 03:04:57 PM
Norma,

I agree that the pizzas look good.

I am a bit confused about the fermentation protocols for the three dough balls? Can you summarize what they were, and also can you correlate the three dough balls with the pizzas shown in the photos? Also, did you bake some of the pizzas when the dough was cold?

Finally, can you tell me the bake temperatures you used to bake the pizzas?

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for saying the pizzas look good, but I was trying for a little crisper bottom crust, which I didn’t achieve.

To try and tell about the fermentation protocols for the three doughs balls, the first dough ball pictured at Reply 175 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg222024.html#msg222024  was let out at room temperature for about an hour.  It was then put into oiled steel pan (with peanut oil).  The dough in the steel pan was then put into the Hatco Unit for about 1 ½ hrs. (with out any lid) for about the first 20 minutes.  The pizza was then just dressed and baked.

The second dough ball isn’t pictured, but the skin in the steel pan (with corn oil) is pictured at Reply 176  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg222025.html#msg222025 and the first picture at Reply 177 with the second picture showing how the distance from the poppy seed spacing decreased instead of increased after the proofing of about 1 hr. in the Hatco unit.  I was trying to get those poppy seeds to stay put in those pictures.  After the punch down and subsequent rising (about another 45 minutes) of that skin in the steel pan (also in the Hatco unit) is pictured at Reply 180 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg222029.html#msg222029  The resulting pizza is also pictured in that post and the next few posts.  The picture of the pan in the Hatco unit was for the 3rd pizza.  That dough was only proofed in the Hatco unit for about an hour and the picture of that skin in the steel pan (oiled with corn oil) is at Reply 183 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg222032.html#msg222032 with the resulting pizza after that. 

I didn’t bake any of the pizzas when the dough was cold, they were all put into the Hatco unit.  Two dough balls was almost opened cold though, those being the second and third pizzas.

I would guess the temperature to bake all three pizzas was about 539 degrees F. 

I hope I didn’t confuse you or other members more.  If I need to explain more let me know.

I was wondering why even though I used different methods of tempering the dough in the pan (and different amounts of times) they all about rose the same after the bakes.  Even the skin in the first pizza that really dried out (from me not placing anything on top of the pan at first, also seemed to rise the same after the bake.   

Norma 
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Skee on November 07, 2012, 03:15:31 PM
Norma - thanks for posting the pics with the thickness.  Pizza looks really tasty!

Here are a couple of pics of last night's pizza. The 80% hydration was just too much when combined with an all-day rise - the dough was like really thick pancake batter and almost spread itself in the pans, which was nice, but once risen was clearly too light to support the weight of the toppings so I parbaked them for 10 minutes, then dressed and gave them another 10-12 to finish.  The resulting crust was very light and airy with a nice crisp and crunchy bottom, got rave reviews.  Probably not much like a Buddy's, but it gave me an upper limit on hydration.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 07, 2012, 03:38:02 PM
Skee,

Your idea of using a parbaked for 10 minutes was good if the fermented dough would not have supported the toppings.  I can see your crumb is light and airy.  What kind of oil did you use to grease your steel pan?  I can’t seem to be able to achieve the crunchy bottom.  Eighty percent hydration is really high.  Your pies sure look really tasty.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 07, 2012, 03:45:35 PM
Looks really good Skee. I like the way you improvised on that.... :chef:
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 07, 2012, 05:06:27 PM
I was wondering why even though I used different methods of tempering the dough in the pan (and different amounts of times) they all about rose the same after the bakes.  Even the skin in the first pizza that really dried out (from me not placing anything on top of the pan at first, also seemed to rise the same after the bake.    

Norma,

I suspect that the amount of yeast was large enough that it didn't really matter what you did to the dough.

In order to get more bottom crispiness, which is characteristic of a real Buddy's pizza from my research, I think you would need to lower the bake temperature and bake for a longer time. According to Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg62915.html#msg62915, the Buddy's pizzas are baked for 12 minutes in an infrared conveyor oven; as noted at Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795, the bake temperature is 495 degrees F. I do not know much about infrared conveyor ovens but according to Tom Lehmann in a PMQ Think tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=22979#p22979, the temperature of the top and bottom emitters can be set at the desired values along with the bake time. As noted in that post, the pans should be dark pans. Later in the same thread, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=23106#p23106, Tom notes that an infrared conveyor oven can bake like a deck oven. That is what Buddy's apparently used before it went to conveyor ovens. See also John Correll's PMQTT post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=8278#p8278. I mention all of this to give you an idea as to how Buddy's apparently bakes its pizzas. If you can't lower the temperature of your deck oven at market and use a longer bake time, I can't say whether you can get the same bottom crust characteristic as a real Buddy's pizza.

An additional possible advantage of using a longer, lower bake temperature is that the cheese may not blacken up as much. However, that is something that would need to be tested. With an infrared conveyor oven, the top emitter could be set at a temperature that cooks the top of the pizza without turning the cheese too dark.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 07, 2012, 05:45:55 PM
The weights of all 3 pizzas were.

First pizza.  1 lb. 3.8 ounces
Second pizza. 1 lb. 4.1 ounces
Third pizza 1 lb. 4.2 ounces.

Norma,

You previously indicated that the dough ball weights were 277 grams, or 9.77 ounces. With 4 ounces of pizza sauce and 8 ounces of cheese, the corresponding weight losses during baking were 9.05%, 7.67% and 7.2%, respectively.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 07, 2012, 06:22:48 PM
Norma,

I suspect that the amount of yeast was large enough that it didn't really matter what you did to the dough.

In order to get more bottom crispiness, which is characteristic of a real Buddy's pizza from my research, I think you would need to lower the bake temperature and bake for a longer time. According to Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg62915.html#msg62915, the Buddy's pizzas are baked for 12 minutes in an infrared conveyor oven; as noted at Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795, the bake temperature is 495 degrees F. I do not know much about infrared conveyor ovens but according to Tom Lehmann in a PMQ Think tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=22979#p22979, the temperature of the top and bottom emitters can be set at the desired values along with the bake time. As noted in that post, the pans should be dark pans. Later in the same thread, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=23106#p23106, Tom notes that an infrared conveyor oven can bake like a deck oven. That is what Buddy's apparently used before it went to conveyor ovens. See also John Correll's PMQTT post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=8278#p8278. I mention all of this to give you an idea as to how Buddy's apparently bakes its pizzas. If you can't lower the temperature of your deck oven at market and use a longer bake time, I can't say whether you can get the same bottom crust characteristic as a real Buddy's pizza.

An additional possible advantage of using a longer, lower bake temperature is that the cheese may not blacken up as much. However, that is something that would need to be tested. With an infrared conveyor oven, the top emitter could be set at a temperature that cooks the top of the pizza without turning the cheese too dark.

Peter

Peter,

I used 0.60369% IDY, so I wouldn’t think that would have been too much yeast for a one day cold ferment.  When tempering the dough it seemed okay.

Before I decided to purchased the small deck oven I use, I had looked into air impingement ovens.  I thought about them and I thought would have to many problems understanding how to operate them.  I also wanted to be able to make my pizzas the old-fashioned way in a deck oven.  I also thought of maybe how high the electric bills might be with one of those conveyor ovens.  Since I run propane I would think it would be cheaper.  Thanks for all of the helpful links to understand how conveyor ovens work for a pizza something like Buddy‘s. 

I can see the advantages to using one of the newer conveyor ovens, but I am stuck with what I have.  You may be right that I might not ever get my Buddy’s clones right on the bottom crust.  I wonder why when I bake my Greek style pizzas in the blackbuster pan that the bottom crust does get crispy.  They are also baked right on the deck of my oven.  The first pizza I made in this thread with the blackbuster pan did brown better on the bottom crust. 

I wish I could turn down my oven in temperature, but then my regular pies would be all fouled up.  I guess I will just have to settle on what I can do.   

The only cheese that did blacken up too much yesterday for my tastes was the cheese blend (of Italian blend and brick cheese).  I had just purchased the Italian blend to see what would happen, but believe that is why the third pizza cheese browned too much.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 07, 2012, 06:24:27 PM
Norma,

You previously indicated that the dough ball weights were 277 grams, or 9.77 ounces. With 4 ounces of pizza sauce and 8 ounces of cheese, the corresponding weight losses during baking were 9.05%, 7.67% and 7.2%, respectively.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for posting what the weight losses were for the 3 pizzas yesterday.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 07, 2012, 06:31:54 PM
The first pizza I made in this thread with the blackbuster pan did brown better on the bottom crust. 

Norma,

Was it only the first pizza that you used the blockbuster pan for? If so, that might be the pan to use.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Skee on November 07, 2012, 06:43:52 PM
What kind of oil did you use to grease your steel pan?  I can’t seem to be able to achieve the crunchy bottom.
I typically use peanut oil but for these two I used olive oil in a sprayer as a sub.  I pour maybe a tablespoon of oil in each pan and then use a pastry brush to spread it over the bottom and up on the sides, so there's a thin, but noticeable sheen of oil.  When I first got the pans I also put a small swipe of Crisco into the corners and along the sides at cheese height (think this was at PizzaHog's suggestion in the Buddy's thread), but I don't need that now that the pans have been used a while. 
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Tdavis on November 07, 2012, 08:35:05 PM
Norma, have you tried using something with a higher saturated fat content, like lard, in the bottom of your pan?
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 07, 2012, 10:35:49 PM
Norma,

Was it only the first pizza that you used the blockbuster pan for? If so, that might be the pan to use.

Peter

Peter,

Yes, it was only the first pizza in this thread that I used the blackbuster steel pan.  If that is the pan to be used for this current formulation, then I won't be able to call them pizzas Detroit style.  They will look very similiar to my Greek style pizzas then. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 07, 2012, 10:37:53 PM
I typically use peanut oil but for these two I used olive oil in a sprayer as a sub.  I pour maybe a tablespoon of oil in each pan and then use a pastry brush to spread it over the bottom and up on the sides, so there's a thin, but noticeable sheen of oil.  When I first got the pans I also put a small swipe of Crisco into the corners and along the sides at cheese height (think this was at PizzaHog's suggestion in the Buddy's thread), but I don't need that now that the pans have been used a while. 

Skee,

Thanks a lot for telling me what you used before and on your recent pizzas. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 07, 2012, 10:40:04 PM
Norma, have you tried using something with a higher saturated fat content, like lard, in the bottom of your pan?

Tdavis,

I didn't try anything with a higher saurated fat content on this thread, but did try Manteca in the Greek thread.  Then I was using the blackbuster pan too.  I do have some MFB that I could try.

Thanks for your suggestion!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 08, 2012, 09:08:24 AM
Yes, it was only the first pizza in this thread that I used the blackbuster steel pan.  If that is the pan to be used for this current formulation, then I won't be able to call them pizzas Detroit style.  They will look very similiar to my Greek style pizzas then. 

Norma,

While it is true that the type of pan used to make the Detroit style pizza is an important component of that style, there are still enough other attributes and features of your Buddy's clones that, in my opinion, would support your calling your Buddy's clones "Detroit style". Of course, you can still try to use your blue steel pans with your Buddy's clones in your deck oven at market but you may have to play around with using a cover during baking to keep the top of the pizza from overbaking while the bottom crust develops color and crisps up, and using one or more pizza screens under the pan in the event the bottom is done sooner than the top. In a way, it is like the problems that many of our members have when trying to bake Chicago deep-dish pizzas on pizza stones in their home ovens and get a crispy (rather than soggy) bottom crust yet completely cook the contents of the pizza without burning the crust at the top.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 08, 2012, 11:14:16 AM
Norma,

While it is true that the type of pan used to make the Detroit style pizza is an important component of that style, there are still enough other attributes and features of your Buddy's clones that, in my opinion, would support your calling your Buddy's clones "Detroit style". Of course, you can still try to use your blue steel pans with your Buddy's clones in your deck oven at market but you may have to play around with using a cover during baking to keep the top of the pizza from overbaking while the bottom crust develops color and crisps up, and using one or more pizza screens under the pan in the event the bottom is done sooner than the top. In a way, it is like the problems that many of our members have when trying to bake Chicago deep-dish pizzas on pizza stones in their home ovens and get a crispy (rather than soggy) bottom crust yet completely cook the contents of the pizza without burning the crust at the top.

Peter

Peter,

I think it is important that I keep playing around with a Buddy’s clones in the steel pans I am using right now, instead of trying out my blackbuster pan, or trying to purchase more of the blackbuster pans.  I know Bova does sell different blackbuster pans, but they are very expensive in my opinion and I am not sure what sizes of blackbuster they carry, although I believe that I saw rectangular ones the last time I visited Bova.  I sure don’t want to go to the expense of ordering more pans when I don‘t know how a Detroit Buddy‘s clone will go over at market.  

I think your idea is good to just play around with different methods of baking a Buddy’s clone in my deck oven.  I want to try a Buddy’s clone either in my home oven, or my mom’s home oven soon with a lower bake temperature to see if I can achieve a crisper bottom.  Do you have any suggestions about what I should try first in my deck oven.  

I know I have played around with Chicago style deep dish pizzas (double crusted) and know I had to do a fair amount of playing around to get the top and bottom crusts done at the same time.  That process was fairly complicated, but those attempts were made in my home oven.

Thanks for your ideas!

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 08, 2012, 11:18:36 AM

Robin, from Foremost Farms called me this morning in regards to the to questions I had about Foremost Farms brick cheese.  She first began to explain that Foremost Farms mostly produces and sells Italian cheeses, which are mozzarellas, provolone and some cheddars.  Robin did say that there is one Foremost Farm plant that does produce brick cheese though, but that was for special order only.  Robin went on to explain to place an order for the brick cheese that they produce a full vat (4,000 lbs.) of brick cheese and that is what would need to be ordered.  That would be 2 pallets of 54 cases (40 lb. blocks).   :o

I told Robin that I was just experimenting with brick cheese for a Detroit style pizza and really couldn’t order that amount of brick cheese.

We then on to talking about how similar brick cheese is to cheddar.  I told her of the different kinds of cheddar I had used and how the cheddars can be mild, or have a stronger taste profile after the cheddars are aged.  She also said that the Foremost Farms brick cheese also changes its flavor profile the longer it is aged.

I told Robin of the brick cheese I had ordered from Mandi Cheese shop (Eddie’s brick cheese) and asked her if she had ever heard of that brick cheese.  She said she didn’t.  I told her about my experiments with the Eddie’s brick cheese producing a good tasting Detroit style pizza.  I also told Robin that Mandi cheese shop had told me the Eddie’s brick cheese is also made in Wisconsin by Great Lakes.  Robin told me Great Lakes is also a really big cheese producer and maybe I could contact them about where there might be a distributor in Pa. for their brick cheese.  She said she would think Great Lakes brick cheese would be very similar in taste to Foremost Farms brick cheese.  I told Robin there is a pizza business in Pa. (Victory Pig) that I think might use brick cheese, so there must be some big cheese company making their brick cheese and also a distributor in Pa. that is selling Victory Pig brick cheese.  She said she agreed.

I thanked her for calling me with the information and she said she really wasn’t of any help, since they can’t send me a sample of their brick cheese.  I said she was a big help in helping me to understand more about brick cheese.

Norma 
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Skee on November 08, 2012, 11:41:07 AM
I want to try a Buddy’s clone either in my home oven, or my mom’s home oven soon with a lower bake temperature to see if I can achieve a crisper bottom.  Do you have any suggestions about what I should try first in my deck oven.
Norma, my oven setup is similar to a deck oven with one stone on the first real shelf slot, so maybe 4-5" above the bottom of the oven and a second stone sitting on the top shelf just under the broiler, so there is solid bottom heat and consistent radiant heat beating down on the top.  So far I've had the best results in the 475-495F range with a couple of turns of the pans during the process to help the sides stay even.  If I go higher than 495, at I did on Tuesday, the cheese on the rim burns before the top is completely cooked. 

My family prefers the cheese to be a toasty brown on top, so after 15 minutes between the two stones, I move the pans to sit on the top stone and this toasts the cheese nicely, but without the toasting it will end up almost white, maybe a little spotting.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 08, 2012, 11:49:11 AM
I think your idea is good to just play around with different methods of baking a Buddy’s clone in my deck oven.  I want to try a Buddy’s clone either in my home oven, or my mom’s home oven soon with a lower bake temperature to see if I can achieve a crisper bottom.  Do you have any suggestions about what I should try first in my deck oven.  

Norma,

Can you tell me whether the pan cover shown in the second photo of Reply 180 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg222029.html#msg222029 is metal (maybe aluminum) or plastic?

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 08, 2012, 12:20:16 PM
Norma, my oven setup is similar to a deck oven with one stone on the first real shelf slot, so maybe 4-5" above the bottom of the oven and a second stone sitting on the top shelf just under the broiler, so there is solid bottom heat and consistent radiant heat beating down on the top.  So far I've had the best results in the 475-495F range with a couple of turns of the pans during the process to help the sides stay even.  If I go higher than 495, at I did on Tuesday, the cheese on the rim burns before the top is completely cooked. 

My family prefers the cheese to be a toasty brown on top, so after 15 minutes between the two stones, I move the pans to sit on the top stone and this toasts the cheese nicely, but without the toasting it will end up almost white, maybe a little spotting.

Skee,

Thanks for telling me about your oven setup and how you use two stones for your Buddy’s clones.  I also appreciate you telling me what temperatures you use to bake your pies.  I think I might need to go down a little in temperature for my home Buddy’s clones.  I don’t have two baking stones at home, but do have a soapstone that might work in combination with my cordierite stone.  Steve has my soapstone right now, so I have to wait to try that combination.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 08, 2012, 12:26:05 PM
Norma,

Can you tell me whether the pan cover shown in the second photo of Reply 180 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg222029.html#msg222029 is metal (maybe aluminum) or plastic?

Peter

Peter,

The pan cover in the second phot of Reply 180 is plastic. Why did you ask that question?  For my bigger steel pan, the pan cover is aluminum.  I should be getting my new steel pans any day now, but they don't have lids.

I was thinking about what I can do to get the bottom crisper at market and don't know if it might work, but I could slide the Buddy's clones pizzas out of the pan and then put them right on the deck for a a little to crisp up the bottom crust.  I don't know if you think that might work or not. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 08, 2012, 12:38:07 PM
Norma,

The reason I asked about the pan cover material is because I thought that if it was metal you could use it to keep the top from overbaking while the bottom crust was developing more color and crispiness.

If you can remove the Buddy's clone pizza from its pan onto the deck oven stone, that would be my first choice. However, I wasn't sure if there would be too much oil on the dough when you "decked" it onto the deck oven's stone. I wondered whether that oil might burn and cause a lot of smoke and/or mess up or soil the stone surface.

You mentioned that you are getting new steel pans. Are those different than the ones you now have, and from whom are you purchasing the new pans?

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 08, 2012, 01:16:35 PM
Norma,

The reason I asked about the pan cover material is because I thought that if it was metal you could use it to keep the top from overbaking while the bottom crust was developing more color and crispiness.

If you can remove the Buddy's clone pizza from its pan onto the deck oven stone, that would be my first choice. However, I wasn't sure if there would be too much oil on the dough when you "decked" it onto the deck oven's stone. I wondered whether that oil might burn and cause a lot of smoke and/or mess up or soil the stone surface.

You mentioned that you are getting new steel pans. Are those different than the ones you now have, and from whom are you purchasing the new pans?

Peter


Peter,

I could use the bigger aluminum pan cover if you want me to try that.  That one is the one I purchased with my bigger steel pan at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16473.msg160865.html#msg160865

I purchased 3 seasoned Detroit style pizza pans (10x14) at http://detroitstylepizza.co/detroit-style-pizza-pans/  I received a confirmation that the 3 seasoned Detroit style pizza pans were shipped out 2 days ago.  They were sent Priority mail so they should be here soon.   

I really don’t think the oil will hurt the deck stone and smoke.  I had bacon drippings hit the stone deck and the oil droppings never did anything to the deck stone and didn’t smoke.  They just produce carbon.  I also have lots of cheeses from reheats of slice hit the stone deck and all I have to do is rake that spot. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 08, 2012, 01:30:47 PM
I purchased 3 seasoned Detroit style pizza pans (10x14).   

Norma,

Didn't you previously purchase some blue steel pans, from Northern Pizza Equipment or some other place like that? If not, what pans were you using in your home oven to make the Buddy's clone pizzas?

If your deck oven at market can handle decking a Buddy's clone pizza, I would start with that approach.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 08, 2012, 01:50:39 PM
Norma,

You might note from the Slice write-up on Via 313 in Austin, TX, at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/11/via-313-detroit-pizza-in-austin-texas.html, that they use a deck oven (Bakers Pride) and a bake temperature of 550 degrees F. Also, note the dough balls in what appears to be greased pans.

BTW, did you ever hear back on the Margherita coarse pepperoni?

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 08, 2012, 01:55:54 PM
Norma,

Didn't you previously purchase some blue steel pans, from Northern Pizza Equipment or some other place like that? If not, what pans were you using in your home oven to make the Buddy's clone pizzas?

If your deck oven at market can handle decking a Buddy's clone pizza, I would start with that approach.

Peter

Peter,

If I remember correctly I did purchase my 2 (8x10) steel pan and1 bigger steel pan and lids at Northern Pizza Equipment, before they stopped selling them.  I am using the same pans in my home oven. 

I think my deck oven at market can handle decking of a Buddy’s clone pizza.  I will try that at market this coming Tuesday. 

Thanks again for your help!

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 08, 2012, 02:06:22 PM
Norma,

You might note from the Slice write-up on Via 313 in Austin, TX, at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/11/via-313-detroit-pizza-in-austin-texas.html, that they use a deck oven (Bakeers Pride) and a bake temperature of 550 degrees F. Also, note the dough balls in what appears to be greased pans.

BTW, did you ever hear back on the Margherita coarse pepperoni?

Peter

Peter,

Thanks so much for the link to the article about Via 313 on Slice.  I see they just put the dough in the steel pans.  That is interesting.  I guess they slowly press out those doughs in the steel pan.  Those pans do look like they have some kind of lard in them.  I wonder if I should try out lard, or maybe my MBF.  I see Via 313 does a cold fermented version and also bakes in a Baker’s Pride oven.  I think there is some way I can get this all to work for me, if I try out different methods.  

I did not hear back after contacting about the Margherita coarse pepperoni.  I will have to call them.  I will do that tomorrow.  

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 08, 2012, 02:55:08 PM
Peter,

I just call the different numbers and they finally transferred me to the place that could give me the Nutrition Facts for the Margherita coarse pepperoni.  The first number at the John Morrell Food Group did say they received my request for information on their contact page, but nothing was done about it so far.  I was given different numbers to call and finally the number I called was in Illinois.  They said they would try to get me the Nutrition Facts for the Margherita coarse pepperoni, but they would have to ask the plant for a request first.  I gave them my email.  Hopefully, I will be able to get that information.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 08, 2012, 03:17:05 PM
Thanks so much for the link to the article about Via 313 on Slice.  I see they just put the dough in the steel pans.  That is interesting.  I guess they slowly press out those doughs in the steel pan.  Those pans do look like they have some kind of lard in them.  I wonder if I should try out lard, or maybe my MBF.  I see Via 313 does a cold fermented version and also bakes in a Baker’s Pride oven.

Norma,

For now, you might want to stick with oils since you are trying to replicate the Buddy's pizza. If it turns out that that won't work out well enough in your deck oven, then that might be the time to try shortening or lard.

Did you mean MFB (Made For Baking) instead of MBF? If so, that might also work to grease your pans although I believe that product is intended to be used in a baked product because of its unique attributes.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 08, 2012, 03:30:03 PM
Norma,

For now, you might want to stick with oils since you are trying to replicate the Buddy's pizza. If it turns out that that won't work out well enough in your deck oven, then that might be the time to try shortening or lard.

Did you mean MFB (Made For Baking) instead of MBF? If so, that might also work to grease your pans although I believe that product is intended to be used in a baked product because of its unique attributes.

Peter

Peter,

I will stay with oils for now since I am trying to replicate Buddy’s pizza.  I also will purchase some Canola oil to try for this coming Tuesday. 

Yes, I did mean MFB.  I got my letters mixed up.  I can try it sometime later if it is only made for baked products.  I thought I recalled somewhere that maybe Craig posted the MFB might be good for frying, but could be wrong. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 08, 2012, 04:19:02 PM
Norma,

You were perhaps thinking of Craig's post at Reply 19 at  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19253.msg188333.html#msg188333. I was thinking of the MFB specs at http://www.conagrafoodservice.com/ProductDetail.do;jsessionid=33758431EC0708E4DE08D2E6B1E31816?productUpc=2700073651. Although the specs for MFB don't specify use for frying, I will take Craig's word for it that that product also works well for frying.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 08, 2012, 05:35:38 PM
Norma,

You were perhaps thinking of Craig's post at Reply 19 at  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19253.msg188333.html#msg188333. I was thinking of the MFB specs at http://www.conagrafoodservice.com/ProductDetail.do;jsessionid=33758431EC0708E4DE08D2E6B1E31816?productUpc=2700073651. Although the specs for MFB don't specify use for frying, I will take Craig's word for it that that product also works well for frying.

Peter

Peter,

I was thinking of Craig’s post at Reply 19, but didn‘t recall what thread it was in.  Thanks for finding it. 

I also would take Craig’s word if he said MFB works well for frying too.  I think I am going to make 3 Buddy’s clone balls again for Tuesday.  I might try MFB in one pan to see what happens.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 09, 2012, 08:16:01 AM
This article about Via 313’s Detroit style pizzas and says the oven temperature is 525 degrees F and the bake time is 15 minutes.

http://www.readthehorn.com/lifestyle/50918/saveur_seeking_via_313_detroit_style_pizza

I wonder why Via 313 applies the sauce after the bake.

In the video it also says the oven temperature is 525 degrees F for 15 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nFthReFgxxA

Via 313’s Baker’s Pride oven is also shown in the video.  In the video it says they use a two cheese blend.  It looks like Via 313 is baking their Detroit style pizzas on a thin pizza stone.  The 6th picture on yelp looks like the crumb is light and airy.  http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/via-313-pizza-austin?select=571KK5bmUn7n9fZZAva86g#NsjJNJcuELY9-TrE6EJLbA

I can understand a little bit more about why Via 313’s Detroit style pizzas bake differently than my deck oven, because they are using a different type of Baker’s Pride oven and a different type of pizza stone.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 09, 2012, 10:03:11 AM
Norma,

Because Via 313 operates with limited space, I believe they decided to go with a Bakers Pride countertop oven. I don't know the exact model and age of the Bakers Pride oven that Via 313 is using, but it may be something along the lines of the models shown and described at http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/Hearthbake/HB_P44S_P44BL.pdf and at http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/Hearthbake/HB_DP2_DP2BL.pdf. The latter document goes so far as to say that the Model DP-2 is "Perfect for pan pizza". But, either way, the oven will dictate the temperatures and bake times. On the matter of the pizza stones, my understanding has always been that Bakers Pride uses ceramic stones for its ovens. In the case of the countertop units, the specs say that the stones are ceramic. In the case of the regular Bakers Pride deck ovens, the specs specifically mention that the stones are Cordierite. There will also be a difference in the thickness of the stones, as you noted. In the case of the countertop units, the stone thickness is 1/2". For the regular Bakers Pride deck ovens, the stones are 1 1/2". As you correctly noted, these differences will also dictate bake times.

As for the application of the pizza sauce after baking, it is possible that the low ceiling of the Bakers Pride countertop oven that Via 313 is using, along with a small cavity, results in overheating and excessive drying out of the sauce at a temperature of 525 degrees F for 15 minutes. Since the pizza is hot when it comes out of the oven, there should be no problem adding the sauce at that time. That will even retain the nice freshness of the tomatoes used in the sauce. When I was re-reading the Buddy's thread, I remember that steel_baker, who is no slouch at making Sicilian style pizzas, insisted that, in the case of the pizza that he had eaten at Buddy's, the cheese and the sauce were both added after the pizza had been baked, as is sometimes done with Sicilian style pizzas.  However, there was no evidence of this and he later agreed. In Via 313's case, I think the oven may have been the reason for adding the sauce later.

On the matter of the two-cheese blend used by Via 313, I was reminded of the many types of cheese blends that I read about over at the Buddy's thread. The choices that our members talked about included mozzarella cheese (which I believe some of the Detroit-area pizza operators use), Parmesan cheese (which steel_baker insisted Buddy's was using around the edges of the pan), provolone (which, like mozzarella cheese, is a pasta filata cheese that melts like mozzarella cheese), and cheddar cheese (mostly white cheddar cheese). Some of the members created actual blends but others kept them separate on the pizza, using one type of cheese for the center and another around the edges, as does Via 313.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 09, 2012, 11:33:59 AM
Norma,

Because Via 313 operates with limited space, I believe they decided to go with a Bakers Pride countertop oven. I don't know the exact model and age of the Bakers Pride oven that Via 313 is using, but it may be something along the lines of the models shown and described at http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/Hearthbake/HB_P44S_P44BL.pdf and at http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/Hearthbake/HB_DP2_DP2BL.pdf. The latter document goes so far as to say that the Model DP-2 is "Perfect for pan pizza". But, either way, the oven will dictate the temperatures and bake times. On the matter of the pizza stones, my understanding has always been that Bakers Pride uses ceramic stones for its ovens. In the case of the countertop units, the specs say that the stones are ceramic. In the case of the regular Bakers Pride deck ovens, the specs specifically mention that the stones are Cordierite. There will also be a difference in the thickness of the stones, as you noted. In the case of the countertop units, the stone thickness is 1/2". For the regular Bakers Pride deck ovens, the stones are 1 1/2". As you correctly noted, these differences will also dictate bake times.

As for the application of the pizza sauce after baking, it is possible that the low ceiling of the Bakers Pride countertop oven that Via 313 is using, along with a small cavity, results in overheating and excessive drying out of the sauce at a temperature of 525 degrees F for 15 minutes. Since the pizza is hot when it comes out of the oven, there should be no problem adding the sauce at that time. That will even retain the nice freshness of the tomatoes used in the sauce. When I was re-reading the Buddy's thread, I remember that steel_baker, who is no slouch at making Sicilian style pizzas, insisted that, in the case of the pizza that he had eaten at Buddy's, the cheese and the sauce were both added after the pizza had been baked, as is sometimes done with Sicilian style pizzas.  However, there was no evidence of this and he later agreed. In Via 313's case, I think the oven may have been the reason for adding the sauce later.

On the matter of the two-cheese blend used by Via 313, I was reminded of the many types of cheese blends that I read about over at the Buddy's thread. The choices that our members talked about included mozzarella cheese (which I believe some of the Detroit-area pizza operators use), Parmesan cheese (which steel_baker insisted Buddy's was using around the edges of the pan), provolone (which, like mozzarella cheese, is a pasta filata cheese that melts like mozzarella cheese), and cheddar cheese (mostly white cheddar cheese). Some of the members created actual blends but others kept them separate on the pizza, using one type of cheese for the center and another around the edges, as does Via 313.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for your helpful information about Via 313 Bakers Pride Countertop oven.  I see the document you references goes as far as to say the the Model DP-2 is “Perfect for pan pizza”.  I can understand that ceramic stones would bake differently than Cordierite stones. 

I hadn’t noted what steel_baker had posted about he about adding the sauce after the bake. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 09, 2012, 11:37:36 AM
Another 3 dough balls were mixed this morning for more Buddy’s clone attempts this evening, since family will be at my moms home this evening to see my brother and I also wanted them to try the Buddy’s clone pizzas to see what they think of them.  I wasn’t sure of how much yeast to use, so I just used the same formulation as the last time, but used really warm water.   The final dough temperature was 82.5 degrees F.  I left the dough balls sit out for 20 minutes before placing them in the fridge to start the fermentation a little since I am going to be making these pizza tonight.  The dough balls were place in the fridge at 11:00 AM.  The poppy seeds were placed on one dough ball to watch how it ferments until this evening.  I also want to try out my moms gas oven to see if I can get a crisper bottom crust.  I am going to pickup my IR gun and steel pan at market today and also pickup some of the AMPI mild white cheddar to combine with the brick cheese.  I don’t want to use all of my brick cheese up too fast, so that is why I am adding some cheddar to the brick cheese.   I also want to see how the blend of the two cheeses melt and taste on the baked pizza. 

The mixing method is a little bit different for this attempt. The mixing method seemed to produce a less sticky dough.   Each dough ball is 277 grams again. 

After watching the below video I see the dough in steel pan in the video doesn’t look like it is proofed very much.  Surely not like some of my attempts.  I know I am not trying to make a Via 313 Detroit style pizza, but the looks of their pizzas do look like Buddy’s pizza, at least to me.  I am just using Via 313 videos to help me better understand on what to change in my methods of achieving a decent Buddy’s clone, in any home oven, or my deck oven.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doufYSOHs18 

I think I would like to add pepperoni to two of the Buddy’s attempts, but think if I weigh the pepperoni, the final bake weights still will be able to be figured out in weight losses. 

I am going to try the MFB lard, maybe Canola oil and corn oil to oil the steel pans.  I am not sure what temperature to set my moms oven at.  I might try my Cordierite baking stone.  If anyone has any ideas for me to try, let me know.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 09, 2012, 01:21:03 PM
I can understand that ceramic stones would bake differently than Cordierite stones. 

Norma,

As I understand it, Cordierite is a ceramic. But there are different types of ceramics and, in Bakers Pride's case, they may be using a different ceramic for their countertop ovens than for their regular deck ovens. My recollection from reading Bakers Pride specs in the past is that they say Cordierite when they mean Cordierite. That leads me to believe that they may be using a different ceramic for their countertop ovens. However, I stand to be corrected on this.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 09, 2012, 01:56:45 PM
Norma,

As I understand it, Cordierite is a ceramic. But there are different types of ceramics and, in Bakers Pride's case, they may be using a different ceramic for their countertop ovens than for their regular deck ovens. My recollection from reading Bakers Pride specs in the past is that they say Cordierite when they mean Cordierite. That leads me to believe that they may be using a different ceramic for their countertop ovens. However, I stand to be corrected on this.

Peter

Peter,

I guess I got confused that Cordierite is a ceramic.  I don’t understand enough about that.  Thanks for that info.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 09, 2012, 02:28:19 PM
After watching the below video I see the dough in steel pan in the video doesn’t look like it is proofed very much.  Surely not like some of my attempts.  I know I am not trying to make a Via 313 Detroit style pizza, but the looks of their pizzas do look like Buddy’s pizza, at least to me.  I am just using Via 313 videos to help me better understand on what to change in my methods of achieving a decent Buddy’s clone, in any home oven, or my deck oven.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doufYSOHs18  

Norma,

It is always useful to review the work of Zane and Brandon Hunt at Via 313, but they no doubt have created their own representation of the Detroit-style pizza just as did Shield's, Cloverleaf, Detroit Style Pizza Co and Loui's, all of whom owed their origins to Buddy's, the grandfather of the Detroit-style pizza. As an example, I read that Detroit Style Pizza Co uses a combination of mozzarella cheese and Jack cheese (however, note that their website says mozzarella and brick cheese, at http://detroitstylepizza.co/aboutus/). I believe that Shield's uses just brick cheese but that Loui's uses a blend of two cheeses (but no mozzarella according to the Slice review at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/09/louis-pizza-hazel-park-michigan-mi-detroit-thick-crust.html). As you know, Jet's, which also followed in the footsteps of the others, uses only mozzarella cheese (Grande). If you are interested, you can see some comparisons of the places mentioned above at http://www.lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=35487. Interestingly, in the LTH Forum piece, mention was made that Buddy's uses shaved Parmesan cheese on its pizzas. steel_baker insisted that his Buddy's pizza had Parmesan cheese at the edges. Ah, the mystery continues.

What Via 313 uses to make its Detroit-style pizza is perhaps also dictated by what ingredients are available to it from foodservice companies in the Austin area. For example, I wonder whether Via 313 uses brick cheese. Also, to my eye, the finished crust of the Via 313 pies shown at the Via 313 website at http://via313.com/ and in some of the videos look to be thinner than what Buddy's accomplishes with its emergency type dough.

Maybe you can put on your fake wig and glasses, get a few temporary tattoos, and go to Austin, act hippy, ply the Hunt brothers with your now famous Limoncello, show them your irresistible charm, and pry their secrets out of them :-D.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 09, 2012, 04:20:45 PM
Norma,

In line with your efforts in this thread, you might note Tom Lehmann's recent post at Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20523.msg222517.html#msg222517.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 09, 2012, 06:31:25 PM
Norma,

It is always useful to review the work of Zane and Brandon Hunt at Via 313, but they no doubt have created their own representation of the Detroit-style pizza just as did Shield's, Cloverleaf, Detroit Style Pizza Co and Loui's, all of whom owed their origins to Buddy's, the grandfather of the Detroit-style pizza. As an example, I read that Detroit Style Pizza Co uses a combination of mozzarella cheese and Jack cheese. I believe that Shield's uses just brick cheese but that Loui's uses a blend of two cheeses. As you know, Jet's, which also followed in the footsteps of the others, uses only mozzarella cheese (Grande). If you are interested, you can see some comparisons of the places mentioned above at http://www.lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=35487. Interestingly, in the LTH Forum piece, mention was made that Buddy's uses shaved Parmesan cheese on its pizzas. steel_baker insisted that his Buddy's pizza had Parmesan cheese at the edges. Ah, the mystery continues.

What Via 313 uses to make its Detroit-style pizza is perhaps also dictated by what ingredients are available to it from foodservice companies in the Austin area. For example, I wonder whether Via 313 uses brick cheese. Also, to my eye, the finished crust of the Via 313 pies shown at the Via 313 website at http://via313.com/ and in some of the videos look to be thinner than what Buddy's accomplishes with its emergency type dough.

Maybe you can put on your fake wig and glasses, get a few temporary tattoos, and go to Austin, act hippy, ply the Hunt brothers with your now famous Limoncello, show them your irresistible charm, and pry their secrets out of them :-D.

Peter

Peter,

I agree it might be useful to review the work of Zane and Brandon Hunt, but no doubt they have created their own style of Detroit pizzas.  I know Jet’s only uses Grande cheese because I had made some attempts at a Jet’s pizza in that thread.  I did enjoy looking at the thread on the other forum.  I can see the mystery continues with the first poster saying that sharp cheese (shaved parmesan “what the heck“) is put around the edges before the bake.  I find the one posters comments interesting in that he said he prefers L&B Spumoni Garden’s Sicilian style pizzas.  I also ate pizza there and I prefer the Buddy’s clones much better than the L&B Sicilian style slices I had in NY. 

This whole thing does become rather confusing with the different Detroit style pizzas having different cheeses.  I am still really thinking about purchasing a real Buddy’s pizza to try and get to the bottom of what they are really like.  I just haven’t been pushed over the edge yet, but did spend a lot of time and money on trying to understand Mack’s pizza, so I might just be crazy enough to purchase a parbaked Buddy’s pizza.

I also think Via 313 might just purchase what ingredients that are available to them from the foodservice companies in the Austin area.  I see what you mean about the pizzas might be thinner at Via 313. 

I don’t think I would fly the whole way to Austin to try Via 313 Detroit pizzas and get any information I could though.  I am crazy, but maybe not that crazy to go though all that trouble.   :-D  You live closer to Austin than I do, maybe you can also put on a get-up and find something out.   :-D


Norma,

In line with your efforts in this thread, you might note Tom Lehmann's recent post at Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20523.msg222517.html#msg222517.

Peter

Thanks for the link to Tom Lehmann’s recent post.  It is interesting what he had to say.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 09, 2012, 06:33:15 PM
I looked at the spacing of the poppy seeds at 6:00 PM and by the measurement the dough ball did more than  double.  The dough balls are sitting out at room temperature now.  I did purchase Canola oil, so I have 3 things to try to get the bottom crisper, plus maybe a lower bake temperature from Tom Lehmann’s recent post.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 09, 2012, 06:38:46 PM
HA!   :-D
I would pay money to see Peter in a Norma look-a-like wig an glasses hanging around Via 313 Detroit acting hippie like......wow....a classic!!   8)
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 09, 2012, 06:58:46 PM
HA!   :-D
I would pay money to see Peter in a Norma look-a-like wig an glasses hanging around Via 313 Detroit acting hippie like......wow....a classic!!   8)


Bob,

Me too, those pictures would be “priceless”!  ;D At least Peter would know the exact questions to ask.  I would like to hear his line of questioning.   

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 09, 2012, 07:01:48 PM

 I would like to hear his line of questioning.   

Norma
And the voice he tries to use while asking the questions!  :D
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 10, 2012, 12:13:22 AM
Out of the three oils I tried the MFB finally gave me a crunchy bottom crust.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 10, 2012, 08:57:39 AM
The 3 Buddy’s clone attempts were made in my moms propane gas oven last evening.  My moms temperature knob might not be right, because I set her knob at 475 degrees F and in less than 30 minutes the temperature with my IR gun on my pizza stone was 538 degrees F.  I had baked in my moms gas oven before and her oven can get to much higher temperatures than my home oven.  I let the temperature come down a little on the pizza stone, but was baking these three attempts at about 496 degrees F.  The reasoning of why I tried my pizza stone instead of just putting these pizzas on a rack in the oven, was I wanted to see if my pizza stone in a home oven would baked the bottom better.  The pizza stone was on the second to the last rack position.

I had placed two of the dough balls in the steel pans before I went to my moms.  I had wanted to try no punch downs and no playing around with the dough in the steel pan to see if that would work.  It wasn’t long after my one post with the measuring of the dough ball with the poppy seeds spacing that I placed the doughs in the pans.  The dough balls were very easy to place in the steel pans.  The third dough ball was placed in the steel pan after I had baked the first pizza, because I only have two 8”x10” steel pans.  By the time I went to place the third dough ball in the steel pan the dough ball did ferment pretty much and had developed a big bubble on the top.  It was still easy to place in the steel pan.

The first pizza is the one that had the canola oil in the pan.  The pizza turned out well and there was a little crispness to the bottom crust, but not enough. 

The second pizza that had the MFB to grease the steel pan turned out the best, in that the crumb was still very moist and the bottom crust was nice and crispy, but still was very easy to eat.  Score one for MFB!   ;D I think MFB is a really good choice to get bottom crispness, but will have to wait until I try it at market to see if I can achieve the same results.  Thanks Craig for posting that MFB is good for frying.   :chef:

The third pizza with corn oil to grease the pan didn’t have any crispness, just like the ones I tried at market.  The bottom crust does look to me to be baked enough, but it was missing that crispness.

All of the pizzas did have good oven spring.  They all had 8 ounces of the blend of cheeses (AMPI mild white cheddar and Eddie’s brick cheese) added and also 4 ounces of my market sauce.  The second and third pizzas had 2.5 ounces of pepperoni added under the cheese (the pepperoni was the brand (stick pepperoni) that Steve had purchased for me).

My mom, brother, one daughter, granddaughter, grandson, great-granddaughter and I all really liked these pizzas and we all agreed that the second pizza was the best.  My brother really liked this style of pizza and had never tasted anything like it before.  He really liked the nice moist crumb and the caramelized edges.

The first pizza weighed 1 lb. 3.4 ounces right out of the oven.  The second pizza weighed 1 lb. 6.8 ounces.  I didn’t weigh the third pizza.

All of these pizza took between 11:53-14 minutes to bake.   

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 10, 2012, 08:59:24 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 10, 2012, 09:01:14 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 10, 2012, 09:02:18 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 10, 2012, 09:04:39 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 10, 2012, 09:06:36 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 10, 2012, 09:08:11 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 10, 2012, 09:09:28 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 10, 2012, 09:11:49 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 10, 2012, 09:13:13 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 10, 2012, 10:12:32 AM
Norma,

It looks like you had another successful run with the Buddy's clone pizzas. It will now be interesting to see how your next Buddy's clone pizzas turn out at market where you will be subjected to a different set of baking variables and maybe even a different bake protocol.

I have a few questions:

1. Can your remind me on the amount of IDY you used and also the thickness factor?

2. When you took the temperatures, were they of the stone or of the oven itself?

3. Did you let the dough balls temper when they came out of the refrigerator and, if so, for how long and at what temperature?

4. Did you find much of a difference in the results when you did not use any punchdowns or any stretch and folding, or did you do some stretch and folding? And how gentle were you when you pressed the dough into the pans?

5. Since you have previously tasted the brick cheese alone on the Buddy's clone pizzas, how would you say the blend of the white cheddar and brick cheese compared with the brick cheese alone?

6. Were there any negatives in your results that you would like to see addressed?

For your information, based on the information you provided, the weight loss for the first pizza, which was just a cheese pizza, was 10.89%. For the second pizza, with the pepperoni, the weight loss was 6.1%. I wouldn't try to make too much out of these numbers given that the different pizzas most likely weren't prepared and baked under identical conditions.

Hopefully, you will get the information on the Margherita pepperoni soon. That is one of the remaining pieces of the puzzle that might help us determine how much dough Buddy's uses for its pizzas.

Peter

Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 10, 2012, 11:44:44 AM
Norma,

It looks like you had another successful run with the Buddy's clone pizzas. It will now be interesting to see how your next Buddy's clone pizzas turn out at market where you will be subjected to a different set of baking variables and maybe even a different bake protocol.

I have a few questions:

1. Can your remind me on the amount of IDY you used and also the thickness factor?

2. When you took the temperatures, were they of the stone or of the oven itself?

3. Did you let the dough balls temper when they came out of the refrigerator and, if so, for how long and at what temperature?

4. Did you find much of a difference in the results when you did not use any punchdowns or any stretch and folding, or did you do some stretch and folding? And how gentle were you when you pressed the dough into the pans?

5. Since you have previously tasted the brick cheese alone on the Buddy's clone pizzas, how would you say the blend of the white cheddar and brick cheese compared with the brick cheese alone?

6. Were there any negatives in your results that you would like to see addressed?

For your information, based on the information you provided, the weight loss for the first pizza, which was just a cheese pizza, was 10.89%. For the second pizza, with the pepperoni, the weight loss was 6.1%. I wouldn't try to make too much out of these numbers given that the different pizzas most likely weren't prepared and baked under identical conditions.

Hopefully, you will get the information on the Margherita pepperoni soon. That is one of the remaining pieces of the puzzle that might help us determine how much dough Buddy's uses for its pizzas.

Peter




Peter,

I would venture to say this was my best attempt at any of the Buddy’s clone pizzas, with the second pizza being exactly like I wanted it.  I know it will be interesting to see if the same results will be able to be obtained at market.  It would be a shame if the same results can’t be achieved.  As you know I have never really tasted a real Buddy’s pizza, but if my second pizza is anything like Buddy’s, I am really loving that style of pizza.  I might try my top deck at market this coming Tuesday since it is lower in temperature and the head space is lower in height.  I don’t know what will happen with trying that out.  If the first Buddy’s clone pizza doesn’t turn out right, then I might try to add a screen, or do something differently.  I will have to think about what I might plan to try.    

To answer your questions:


You
1. Can your remind me on the amount of IDY you used and also the thickness factor?

Me
1.  The print out sheet from the expanded dough calculation tool is show below. The formulation I used was from the print out sheet at Reply 37 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220077.html#msg220077   The TF can be seen there which was 0.1218 and the IDY amount was 0.60369

You

2. When you took the temperatures, were they of the stone or of the oven itself?

Me

2.  I used my IR gun and took the temperatures on the pizza stone.  I think the laser light can been seen in the pictures.  I took different readings with the IR gun and they varied some, depending on how much I opened an shut the oven door.  I didn’t record all those readings.  The first pizza I opened and shut the oven door more, (to watch the bake) because my moms oven doesn’t have a light or a glass window in the oven door.
 
You

3. Did you let the dough balls temper when they came out of the refrigerator and, if so, for how long and at what temperature?

Me

3.  The 2 dough balls only tempered for about ½ hr. when they were taken out of the refrigerator at 71 degrees F ambient room temperature.  The dough balls were opened almost cold and just placed in the steel pans.  I don’t know if you recall but my fridge temperature is about 41 degrees F.  The dough balls then sat out at my moms for about 1 to 2 hrs. for the first and second pizza.  It didn’t seem to matter in the height of the final baked Buddy’s clones.  They all obtained about the same height after the bake.  

You

4. Did you find much of a difference in the results when you did not use any punchdowns or any stretch and folding, or did you do some stretch and folding? And how gentle were you when you pressed the dough into the pans?

Me

4.  I didn’t find any difference in not doing punchdowns while the dough was in the steel pans.  The dough did rise and bake nicely without any punchdowns and then letting the dough proof some more.  I didn’t do any stretch and folds either when forming the dough balls.  I used a little different mixing procedure this time.  If you want me to post what I did, I can post that information.  


You

5. Since you have previously tasted the brick cheese alone on the Buddy's clone pizzas, how would you say the blend of the white cheddar and brick cheese compared with the brick cheese alone?  

Me  

5.  There wasn’t any big noticeable difference in the taste of the cheese blend in the baked pizzas. There was a little note of cheddar, but then I am used to tasting what cheddar/or a cheddar blend tastes like on different pizzas. The cheddar I used was mild though. I could also notice the buttery notes from the brick cheese, but no one else could. All of my family thought the cheese on the Buddy’s clone was mozzarella. I had used ¾ AMPI mild white cheddar and ¼ brick cheese for these 3 attempts at a Buddy’s pizza.

You

6.Were there any negatives in your results that you would like to see addressed?

Me

6.  There really weren’t any negatives in the second Buddy’s clone attempt that I would like to see addressed.  The first and third Buddy’s clone weren’t exactly like I would have like though.  It will now go onto if I can achieve the same results at market, with a different oven and different protocol.    

In summary, I would say these Buddy’s clone attempts were really easy from start to finish.  The dough is very easy to make, the dough is very easy to spread into the steel pans and it really didn’t seem to matter how long the doughs tempered in the steel pans.  The dough wasn’t evenly spread.  Even the dough ball for the third pizza with the big bubble worked okay and that dough wasn’t in the pan for more than about 30 minutes.  My moms kitchen was hot though from the oven being on for so long.  I really don’t know, but if the dough looks like it had risen some while in the steel pan, I think it might be okay to apply the dressings and then bake.  

Thanks for giving me information on the weight losses for the pizzas.  The oven temperature might have varied and also I know the bake times did vary.  

I will try to call about getting the Nutrition Facts for the Margherita pepperoni on Monday again.  I know that information is one part of the puzzle to help us determine how much dough Buddy’s uses for their pizzas.  The lady told me they had to request that information from the plant that produces the Margherita pepperoni for me.  I don’t know what that means, or how long that might take.  A reminder might be helpful.

Norma

Edited:  To try and make everything clearer.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 10, 2012, 12:26:23 PM
Boy, those are beauties Norma.  :chef:  Congratulations on finding the oil you needed for the crispy bottom.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 10, 2012, 12:31:15 PM
Norma,

1.  The print out sheet from the expanded dough calculation tool is show below.  This was the same formulation you set forth for me in Reply 13 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.0.html Norma's Modification of Trenton Bill's Original Dough Recipe, except I used PizzaHog’s TF and instead of the Kyrol flour I used the bromated Occident flour.  The TF can be seen in the print out sheet.

In looking at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg218034.html#msg218034, I believe that you used the dough formulation at the bottom of the page, not the middle one, but with the Occident flour, your 8" x 10" pan (instead of the 12" x 17" pan), and PizzaHog's thickness factor (0.1218).

4.  I didn’t find any difference in not doing punchdowns while the dough was in the steel pans.  The dough did rise and bake nicely without any punchdowns and then letting the dough proof some more.  I didn’t do any stretch and folds either when forming the dough balls.  I used a little different mixing procedure this time.  If you want me to post what I did, I can post that information.

In case someone wants to try out your dough formulation and methods, you might want to describe the mixing procedure you used. It might also help to know how long the dough balls were held in the refrigerator.

6.  There weren’t any negatives in the second attempt with the MFB.  I don’t know how Canola oil would do in my deck oven though.  The bottom crust of that pie was decent in being a little crispy, so maybe my deck oven would make a crisper bottom crust with Canola oil.  Do you think I should try oiling one of the pans with Canola oil on Tuesday, even though I liked the results of the MFB much better?

It might be useful to try canola oil at some point, or even soybean oil, since those are oils that anyone can get, whereas the MFB product is a foodservice product. Maybe a standard shortening can be used in lieu of the MFB.

I noticed that your numbering sequence is out of order. You may want to correct it in your last post. I corrected the sequence in this post.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 10, 2012, 01:47:49 PM
I will try to call about getting the Nutrition Facts for the Margherita pepperoni on Monday again.  I know that information is one part of the puzzle to help us determine how much dough Buddy’s uses for their pizzas.  The lady told me they had to request that information from the plant that produces the Margherita pepperoni for me.  I don’t know what that means, or how long that might take.  A reminder might be helpful.

Norma,

One of the most important pieces of information that we want on the Margherita coarse pepperoni is the number of servings and the number of slices of pepperoni per serving if that is how Margherita specifies that information in their Nutrition Facts. For example, today I did some more searching and saw at the Margherita website that there is a stick version of the Margherita coarse pepperoni. It can be found by scrolling down the pull-down menu at http://www.margheritabrand.com/product_categories/4. Amazingly, they misspelled coarse. If you click on the nutrition link, you can see the Nutrition Facts for the coarse pepperoni but no stated number of servings or the number of slices of pepperoni per serving which, of course, makes sense for a stick product. I can only imagine that Buddy's uses pre-sliced pepperoni, not sticks, so the information we want is hopefully in the form that we would like.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 10, 2012, 04:18:49 PM
Boy, those are beauties Norma.  :chef:  Congratulations on finding the oil you needed for the crispy bottom.

Bob,

Thanks!  :) I don't think I would have tried the shortening from Wesson, if I hadn't seen the pans at Via 313 being greased with some kind of solid shortening if that is what they are greased with. Also Skee said at Reply 198 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg222132.html#msg222132 when he first got the pans he also put a small swipe of Crisco into the edges of the corners.  The Tdavis posted at Reply 199 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg222138.html#msg222138  and asked if I tried using something with a higher saturated fat content.  Peter also helped me at Reply 213 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg222349.html#msg222349  when he told me to note what appeared to be greased pans. 

I had looked at real lard at our Country store different times and for a 1 lb. block I think it was over 5.00.  That was another reason I tried the MFB because I already had it at home. 

Some of my Buddy’s attempts on this thread do look like they have crispy bottoms, but they weren’t as crispy as I wanted. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 10, 2012, 04:36:26 PM
Norma,

In looking at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg218034.html#msg218034, I believe that you used the dough formulation at the bottom of the page, not the middle one, but with the Occident flour, your 8" x 12" pan (instead of the 12" x 17" pan), and PizzaHog's thickness factor (0.1218).

In case someone wants to try out your dough formulation and methods, you might want to describe the mixing procedure you used. It might also help to know how long the dough balls were held in the refrigerator.

It might be useful to try canola oil at some point, or even soybean oil, since those are oils that anyone can get, whereas the MFB product is a foodservice product. Maybe a standard shortening can be used in lieu of the MFB.

I noticed that your numbering sequence is out of order. You may want to correct it in your last post. I corrected the sequence in this post.

Peter


Peter,

I think I made another booboo in posting what formulation I used.  I think it was the print out sheet at Reply 37 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220077.html#msg220077 that I just changed the size pan since I am using smaller pans right now.  I sure don’t know where my bigger pans I ordered are now either.  I have to contact them to see what happened because they were shipped on earlier this week by Priority mail. 

I don’t know if you posted wrong, or I did, but the size pans I am using now are 8x10.  I think you posted my pan size is 8”x12” at Reply 248. 

I will describe the mixing procedure and how long the dough was held in the fridge if someone might want to try out what I did. 

I will try canola oil, or even soybean oil at some point since those are oils anyone can readily purchase.  As I posted to Bob in my last post real lard is expensive and I am not sure if I will purchase some or not.  Did you have in mind trying Crisco shortening? 

I don’t know how I fouled up the numbering sequence, but will try to modify it.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 10, 2012, 04:52:35 PM
Norma,

I made a mistake in Reply 248 on the pan size you used. I corrected my error in that post.

Crisco would be an obvious choice for a shortening but there are other brands that should be comparable. Crisco reformulated its vegetable shortening some time ago. I don't know if that affected its use for your purposes.

If you have a problem correcting the number sequence, I can fix that for you.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 10, 2012, 04:57:17 PM
Norma,

One of the most important pieces of information that we want on the Margherita coarse pepperoni is the number of servings and the number of slices of pepperoni per serving if that is how Margherita specifies that information in their Nutrition Facts. For example, today I did some more searching and saw at the Margherita website that there is a stick version of the Margherita coarse pepperoni. It can be found by scrolling down the pull-down menu at http://www.margheritabrand.com/product_categories/4. Amazingly, they misspelled coarse. If you click on the nutrition link, you can see the Nutrition Facts for the coarse pepperoni but no stated number of servings or the number of slices of pepperoni per serving which, of course, makes sense for a stick product. I can only imagine that Buddy's uses pre-sliced pepperoni, not sticks, so the information we want is hopefully in the form that we would like.

Peter


Peter,

I will request the number of servings and number of slices of pepperoni per serving size when I call again Monday.  I see the Nutrition Facts for the coarse pepperoni, but not stated number of servings, or the number of slices of pepperoni per serving.  I also saw the Nutrition Fact for the Reduced Fat Pepperoni, which is in slices.

Hopefully, I won’t mess up on what we really want to know.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 10, 2012, 05:00:58 PM
Norma,

Crisco would be an obvious choice for a shortening but there are other brands that should be comparable. Crisco reformulated its vegetable shortening some time ago. I don't know if that affected its use for your purposes.

If you have a problem correcting the number sequence, I can fix that for you.

Peter


Peter,

What other kind of shortening are you thinking about to try, other than Crisco?  I have Crisco at home.

I can try to fix the number sequence, but was just trying a quick fix, by deleting the numbers altogether because I am soon going out to eat with my family and just took the quick way out.   

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 10, 2012, 05:12:06 PM
What other kind of shortening are you thinking about to try, other than Crisco?  I have Crisco at home.

Norma,

I don't have any particular brand in mind but one brand that is sold in the supermarkets near me is Mrs. Tucker's: http://www.shopwell.com/mrs-tuckers-shortening/shortening/p/6172009948. That brand happens to include animal fats as well as vegetable fats.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 10, 2012, 05:23:25 PM
Norma,

I don't have any particular brand in mind but one brand that is sold in the supermarkets near me is Mrs. Tucker's: http://www.shopwell.com/mrs-tuckers-shortening/shortening/p/6172009948. That brand happens to include animal fats as well as vegetable fats.

Peter

Peter,

I never saw the Mrs. Tucker's brand near where I live, but I can look more.  I see the Mrs. Tucker's brand happens to include animal fats as well as vegetable fats.

Norma  
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 10, 2012, 05:45:39 PM
I will request the number of servings and number of slices of pepperoni per serving size when I call again Monday.  I see the Nutrition Facts for the coarse pepperoni, but not stated number of servings, or the number of slices of pepperoni per serving.  I also saw the Nutrition Fact for the Reduced Fat Pepperoni, which is in slices.

Norma,

Most supermarket pillow packs of sliced pepperoni have a serving size of 28-30 grams (about an ounce) with about 14-16 slices per serving. The Margherita coarse pepperoni that Buddy's uses (unless they have switched brands) is a foodservice product. I understand that the Margherita coarse pepperoni slice is a thicker slice. That will affect its weight. I don't know Armour Eckrich recites its serving size and slices per serving for its foodservice products but it is the weight numbers that I would like for my analysis.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 10, 2012, 07:13:56 PM
Norma,

I think this article, at http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/2011/04/25/oh-yes-tonys-pizza-has-detroit-style-pie/, has been cited before on the forum, but it looks like Tony Gemignani played around with the Detroit-style pizza. I cite the article mainly for the mention of the Wisconsin brick cheese and white cheddar cheese combination. Another article, at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/09/pizza-futura-and-detroit-style-pies-at-tonys-pizza-napoletana-san-francisco.html, mentions mozzarella as the second cheese (with Wisconsin cheddar being the other cheese).

It looks like Tony's version uses a low protein flour.

Zane and Brandon Hunt at Via 313 studied under Tony: http://via313.com/about.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 10, 2012, 10:42:21 PM
Norma,

Most supermarket pillow packs of sliced pepperoni have a serving size of 28-30 grams (about an ounce) with about 14-16 slices per serving. The Margherita coarse pepperoni that Buddy's uses (unless they have switched brands) is a foodservice product. I understand that the Margherita coarse pepperoni slice is a thicker slice. That will affect its weight. I don't know Armour Eckrich recites its serving size and slices per serving for its foodservice products but it is the weight numbers that I would like for my analysis.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for telling me that you understand the Margherita coarse pepperoni slice is a thicker slice than the pillow packs of sliced pepperoni.  I can see how that would affect its weight.  I did copy both of your posts and will type out what I need to ask.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 10, 2012, 11:00:27 PM
Norma,

I think this article, at http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/2011/04/25/oh-yes-tonys-pizza-has-detroit-style-pie/, has been cited before on the forum, but it looks like Tony Gemignani played around with the Detroit-style pizza. I cite the article mainly for the mention of the Wisconsin brick cheese and white cheddar cheese combination. Another article, at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/09/pizza-futura-and-detroit-style-pies-at-tonys-pizza-napoletana-san-francisco.html, mentions mozzarella as the second cheese.

It looks like Tony's version uses a low protein flour.

Zane and Brandon Hunt at Via 313 studied under Tony: http://via313.com/about.

Peter

Peter,

I don’t recall that I ever saw the article here on the forum about Tony Gemignani playing around with Detroit-style pizzas.  I wonder why the blog article and the article on Slice mention two different cheeses as the second cheese.  Those articles were interesting that you dug out.  It does look like Tony uses a low protein flour.  I never put two and two together that the Hunt brothers studied under Tony to learn how to make Detroit-style pizzas.  I did read the Hunt brothers studied under Tony, but wondered why he could help them make Detroit-styled pizzas.  How did you put that together, or did you know all that before?

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 10, 2012, 11:10:05 PM
If anyone is interested, these are the methods I used to mix the dough and about how long the dough balls fermented before using them. 

I wasn’t sure of the percentage of IDY to use for a dough that was supposed to be made the same day and also trying to bake a Buddy’s clone attempt the same day.

I just used what I had used in some of the formulations on this thread which was 0.60369 % IDY.  The other instructions and pictures of the dough and dough ball are at Reply 224 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg222488.html#msg222488 and Reply 230 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg222556.html#msg222556  The final dough temperature is in the first link.

I started the mixing by adding the Kosher salt to the warm water in the mixer bowl of my Kitchen Aid mixer.  I had added the IDY to the flour.  The flat beater was used first until all the dough was on the flat beater.  The I used a metal spoon to take the dough off of the flat beater.  The dough was then rested for 15 minutes to let the water hydrate the flour more.  I then used the flat beater again.  After scraping the dough off of the flat beater again I changed over to the dough hook.  The dough was mixed for 6 minutes (on speed 1) and then rested again for 10 minutes.  I then mixed on speed 3 for 8 minutes.  The dough wasn’t really sticky, but a little sticky.  I then lightly floured my kitchen table and scraped the dough (from the mixer bowl) onto the flour.  It can be seen in the link above what the dough looked like right out of the mixer bowl on my kitchen table.  The dough was then scaled into 3 pieces of dough.  The three pieces of dough were then balled with a little bit of flour and oiled with vegetable oil.  The dough balls then were put into plastic containers and the lid was put on.  They then sat out for 20 minutes to start the fermentation process at the ambient temperature of 71 degrees F.  The dough balls were finished at 11:00 AM.  The dough balls were then cold fermented until about 6:00 PM.

If I wasn’t clear enough and anyone wants more information, just let me know.

Norma   
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 10, 2012, 11:54:23 PM


If I wasn’t clear enough and anyone wants more information, just let me know.

Norma   
Yes please Ms. Norma....this whole process is so confusing to me I think I need you to reiterate the whole deal from the beginning ....thanks.
Ha!...gottcha. :chef:  You have been doing an excellent job of describing all your steps and changes on this one Norma. Great,great work...thanks so much!
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 11, 2012, 08:55:10 AM
I don’t recall that I ever saw the article here on the forum about Tony Gemignani playing around with Detroit-style pizzas.  I wonder why the blog article and the article on Slice mention two different cheeses as the second cheese.  Those articles were interesting that you dug out.  It does look like Tony uses a low protein flour.  I never put two and two together that the Hunt brothers studied under Tony to learn how to make Detroit-style pizzas.  I did read the Hunt brothers studied under Tony, but wondered why he could help them make Detroit-styled pizzas.  How did you put that together, or did you know all that before?

Norma,

The Gemignani article at http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/2011/04/25/oh-yes-tonys-pizza-has-detroit-style-pie/ was previously mentioned on the forum in Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13687.msg137340/topicseen.html#msg137340. The connection between the two Hunt boys and Tony either came from the Via 313 website, which I reviewed some time ago when they became members of the forum, or from one of my many searches on the Detroit style. I do not recall from my reading that the Hunt boys learned how to make the Detroit style from Tony. Since the Hunt boys came from the Detroit area and had grown up eating Detroit style pizza, I think that they could have shown Tony a thing or two about that style. Also, before the Hunt boys went out to study under Tony, they had already pretty much perfected their Detroit-style dough and pizza in Austin.

With respect to the two conflicting articles (the insidescoopsf.sfgate article and the Slice article at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/09/pizza-futura-and-detroit-style-pies-at-tonys-pizza-napoletana-san-francisco.html), you will note that the insidescoopsf article is dated 4/25/11 and mentions the Wisconsin brick cheese and the white cheddar cheese, and that the Slice article is dated September 21, 2011 and mentions the Wisconsin cheddar cheese (maybe the white variety) and the mozzarella cheese. Somewhere between the two articles, Tony may have switched cheeses. If both articles are correct, there could have been several reasons for the switch. For example, it may have been because of customer preference (maybe consumers in the SF area are not used to Wisconsin brick cheese), availability (Wisconsin brick cheese is not widely known outside of the Midwest), cost (Wisconsin brick cheese is not cheap), or maybe Tony was just playing around with different possible cheese combinations.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 11, 2012, 09:30:11 AM
Peter,

Thanks for referencing the post of yours here on the forum where you mentioned that Gemignani was starting to offer Detroit-style pizzas. 

I did a Google search this morning about Tony Gemignani and the Hunt boys and saw the Hunt boys did learn to make Detroit-style pizzas before they went to learn more about making different pizzas from Tony.  I also think the Hunt boys could show Tony a thing or two about making Detroit-style pizzas, since they have tasted and seen so many of them. 

Thanks also for explaining more about the conflicting articles. 

I have no idea of what other brick cheeses taste like other than Eddie’s, but when I make Greek style pizzas with AMPI white cheddar and a blend of mozzarellas, they really don’t taste that much different to me then when using just the Eddie’s brick cheese, or when using AMPI mild white cheddar and the Eddie’s brick cheese like I did in my last attempt.  I really don’t know what a real Buddy’s pizza tastes like though in the cheese department, but with my experiences with blends I don’t think regular people could really tell the difference no matter what is used.  At least that was the experience with my family, in that they thought the cheese I used for my last attempts was all mozzarella. 

I also am going to contact Great Lakes at some point in time and see if there are distributors in my area for Eddie’s brick cheese.  I would be interested in knowing how much it costs a pound from a distributor.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 11, 2012, 09:31:56 AM
Yes please Ms. Norma....this whole process is so confusing to me I think I need you to reiterate the whole deal from the beginning ....thanks.
Ha!...gottcha. :chef:  You have been doing an excellent job of describing all your steps and changes on this one Norma. Great,great work...thanks so much!


Bob,

Do you really understand what I did so far?  If not, I can explain again.  Are you planning on trying this style of pizza? 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 11, 2012, 09:55:30 AM
I started the mixing by adding the Kosher salt to the warm water in the mixer bowl of my Kitchen Aid mixer.  I had added the IDY to the flour.  The flat beater was used first until all the dough was on the flat beater.  The I used a metal spoon to take the dough off of the flat beater.  The dough was then rested for 15 minutes to let the water hydrate the flour more.  I then used the flat beater again.  After scraping the dough off of the flat beater again I changed over to the dough hook.  The dough was mixed for 6 minutes (on speed 1) and then rested again for 10 minutes.  I then mixed on speed 3 for 8 minutes.  The dough wasn’t really sticky, but a little sticky.  I then lightly floured my kitchen table and scraped the dough (from the mixer bowl) onto the flour.  It can be seen in the link above what the dough looked like right out of the mixer bowl on my kitchen table.  The dough was then scaled into 3 pieces of dough.  The three pieces of dough were then balled with a little bit of flour and oiled with vegetable oil.  The dough balls then were put into plastic containers and the lid was put on.  They then sat out for 20 minutes to start the fermentation process at the ambient temperature of 71 degrees F.  The dough balls were finished at 11:00 AM.  The dough balls were then cold fermented until about 6:00 PM.

Norma,

For your next Buddy's clone experiment at market, do you intend to go through the above ritual (if it can even be done in the context of the rules that you have to follow at market, especially the cold fermentation part) or will you make a straight dough with a high finished dough temperature and/or use your Hatco unit? I assume you would be using the MFB product and possibly an oil in the pans.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 11, 2012, 09:59:58 AM
I do not recall from my reading that the Hunt boys learned how to make the Detroit style from Tony.

I believe it is, in fact, the other way around.

CL
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 11, 2012, 10:40:33 AM
Norma,

For your next Buddy's clone experiment at market, do you intend to go through the above ritual (if it can even be done in the context of the rules that you have to follow at market, especially the cold fermentation part) or will you make a straight dough with a high finished dough temperature and/or use your Hatco unit? I assume you would be using the MFB product and possibly an oil in the pans.

Peter

Peter,

I do not intend to mix a dough at market tomorrow.  I don’t think I am ready to mix a larger batch of what I have been trying, because I am not sure of how my Hobart will mix the dough and I also don’t know how my deck oven will bake the Buddy’s clone attempts.  Until I can get consistent results in my deck oven with the Buddy’s clone attempts I won’t be trying to mix the dough at market on Mondays.   

I do intend to mix 3 dough balls again tomorrow morning and then just cold ferment them for one day to be tried at market on Tuesday.  I really don’t think I am going to use the Hatco unit this time, but might.  I really would like to see how the dough ferments in the steel pans, without using the Hatco Unit. 

Should I just try the same formulation and use the same amount of IDY I have been using and try to get a lower final dough temperature, or should I do something else?

I will be using the MFB to grease 2 pans and probably Canola oil in one pan.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 11, 2012, 10:41:23 AM
I believe it is, in fact, the other way around.

CL

Craig,

I also believe you are correct!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 11, 2012, 10:58:11 AM
I do intend to mix 3 dough balls again tomorrow morning and then just cold ferment them for one day to be tried at market on Tuesday.  I really don’t think I am going to use the Hatco unit this time, but might.  I really would like to see how the dough ferments in the steel pans, without using the Hatco Unit.  

Should I just try the same formulation and use the same amount of IDY I have been using and try to get a lower final dough temperature, or should I do something else?

Norma,

At his time of year with the weather turning cooler where you are, I think that with around 0.60% IDY you should be able to have a dough that is usable after about a day of cold fermentation. I would strive for a finished dough temperature of around 75 degrees F if your cold storage unit is around 40 degrees F. You will also want to use a temper period, whether it is at room temperature or in your Hatco unit, if necessary. You should monitor the progress of the dough, especially the volume expansion of the dough and how easily you are able to spread the dough in the pans, in case changes are needed for future experiments.

Whichever ritual you decide to use to make the dough, you will perhaps want it to be one like you would use at market at some point, that is, one that fits within the rules at market.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 11, 2012, 09:51:23 PM
Norma,

At his time of year with the weather turning cooler where you are, I think that with around 0.60% IDY you should be able to have a dough that is usable after about a day of cold fermentation. I would strive for a finished dough temperature of around 75 degrees F if your cold storage unit is around 40 degrees F. You will also want to use a temper period, whether it is at room temperature or in your Hatco unit, if necessary. You should monitor the progress of the dough, especially the volume expansion of the dough and how easily you are able to spread the dough in the pans, in case changes are needed for future experiments.

Whichever ritual you decide to use to make the dough, you will perhaps want it to be one like you would use at market at some point, that is, one that fits within the rules at market.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me to use around 0.60 % IDY and strive for a finished dough temperature of around 75 degrees F since it is cooler in my area at this time of the year. 

I will use a temper period.  I will also note how the dough spreads in the pan.  Before I did open the dough balls some, (to about fit the steel pans) so I am not sure if you want me to continue doing that, or if you want me to just place the dough ball into the pan and then try to spread it to the edges gradually. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 11, 2012, 09:59:42 PM
I will use a temper period.  I will also note how the dough spreads in the pan.  Before I did open the dough balls some, (to about fit the steel pans) so I am not sure if you want me to continue doing that, or if you want me to just place the dough ball into the pan and then try to spread it to the edges gradually. 

Norma,

It's hard for me to judge the condition of the dough on paper so I think you should use your best judgment based on how hard it is to open up and spread the dough to fill the pan.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 11, 2012, 10:30:22 PM
Norma,

It's hard for me to judge the condition of the dough on paper so I think you should use your best judgment based on how hard it is to open up and spread the dough to fill the pan.

Peter

Peter,

To explain a little more, I think all of the doughs I have tried on this thread have been really easy to open, even if they are somewhat cold.  There is very little stretch back.  After a little more time of placing the doughs in the steels pans the edges are easy to place into the corners and sides of the steel pans.  I guess all that is from the higher hydration dough.  The doughs have all been really soft so far in this thread.

I will use my best judgment on what to do.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 12, 2012, 09:52:57 AM



I called about the Margherita coarse pepperoni slices again this morning.  I talked to Lisa again and she checked to see if the plant had sent her the information I had asked for.  She said she had some information, but when I told Lisa what I really would like to know if she could give me the number of slices per serving size and those weight numbers, Lisa didn’t have that information.  She then asked me if I really didn’t want the ingredients that go into the Margherita coarse pepperoni slices and I said, no I didn’t need the ingredients list. 

Lisa said she would call the plant again to see if she could get the information for the number of slices per serving and those weights. I also asked if the Margherita coarse pepperoni was thicker than normal sliced pepperoni and Lisa told me yes it was. 

Lisa had remembered she has spoke with me on Thursday.  I asked Lisa if she still had my email and phone numbers and she checked and said she did.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 12, 2012, 09:54:51 AM
Another 3 dough ball batch of the Buddy’s clone formulation was mixed this morning.  The final dough temperature was 74.7 degrees F.  The dough was mixed the same as in my last attempt and the 3 dough balls were scaled to 277 grams again.  The dough balls was left out for 15 minutes before being placed into the refrigerator.  The dough balls went into the refrigerator at 9:20 AM.

If anyone is interested, these are the pictures of what the dough looked like in my Kitchen Aid mixer bowl, the dough on the table, how the dough looks when it is scaled and the dough balls.  Poppy seeds were placed on one dough ball. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 12, 2012, 12:26:41 PM
Norma,

I have been following this recent PMQ Think Tank thread on the Detroit-style pizza with interest: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13656.

You will note that a recent poster, Pizza of the Month, indicates at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=84376#p84376 that more than 3% oil should be used for that style, at least his version, and that cold fermenting the dough should be avoided. I tracked down the poster's website where you can see an example of his square pizza at http://www.claysburgpizza.com/pizza-and-stromboli.html. Is Claysburg, PA anywhere near you?

I agree with Pizza of the Month that the recipes cited in the abovereferenced PMQTT thread are not Detroit style recipes.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 12, 2012, 05:44:17 PM
Norma,

I have been following this recent PMQ Think Tank thread on the Detroit-style pizza with interest: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13656.

You will note that a recent poster, Pizza of the Month, indicates at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=84376#p84376 that more than 3% oil should be used for that style, at least his version, and that cold fermenting the dough should be avoided. I tracked down the poster's website where you can see an example of his square pizza at http://www.claysburgpizza.com/pizza-and-stromboli.html. Is Claysburg, PA anywhere near you?

I agree with Pizza of the Month that the recipes cited in the abovereferenced PMQTT thread are not Detroit style recipes.

Peter



 
Peter,

I haven’t been looking on PMQ Think Tank lately, because they keep getting my password fouled up.  They do give me a new password, but each time I try to log-in it needs to be changed.  I don’t know what is going on with the problems in logging on to PMQ Think Tank for me.  One time I did forget my password, but can’t make a new one now.

I can see why you have been following the PMQ Think Tank thread with interest, since it about Detroit-style pizzas. 

I don’t think the recent poster, Pizza of the Month, has a clue about what real Detroit-style pizza is about since I saw the pictures of what he must call Detroit-style pizzas.  His pizzas look like regular pan pizzas to me and they are not too appetizing to my eyes.  I think Pizza of the Month could learn a thing or two here on the forum.  If my Detroit-style pizzas I would like to offer at market would look anything like his Detroit-style pies, I wouldn’t even offer them.  I wonder if I should post on that thread and link the Buddy’s thread and this thread here on the forum.   

Claysburg Pizza Shop is about 2 hrs. 30 minutes away from me according to Google Maps, and no I don’t have any interest in traveling to Claysburg to try those pizzas.  :-D

Do you think Pizza of the Month’s pizzas look anything like Detroit-style pizzas? 

Thanks for the links.  I find them interesting.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 12, 2012, 05:46:16 PM
This is how much the one Buddy’s clone dough ball fermented in about 4 hours.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 12, 2012, 06:17:31 PM
Norma,

I don’t think the recent poster, Pizza of the Month, has a clue about what real Detroit-style pizza is about since I saw the pictures of what he must call Detroit-style pizzas.  His pizzas look like regular pan pizzas to me and they are not too appetizing to my eyes.  I think Pizza of the Month could learn a thing or two here on the forum.  If my Detroit-style pizzas I would like to offer at market would look anything like his Detroit-style pies, I wouldn’t even offer them.  I wonder if I should post on that thread and link the Buddy’s thread and this thread here on the forum.

Another PMQTT member, aerotech, who is also a member of our forum and admires what we do, already referred the original poster to our forum, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=84308#p84308. If their members choose to ignore that advice, that is their prerogative. Often I have sensed that the members at the PMQTT do not think that our forum offers them much of value, possibly because they view us as amateurs and not professionals.

Do you think Pizza of the Month’s pizzas look anything like Detroit-style pizzas? 

No, I do not. However, the pizzeria has been in business since the 1950s, so who am I to tell them to do otherwise?

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 12, 2012, 07:08:44 PM
Norma,

Another PMQTT member, aerotech, who is also a member of our forum and admires what we do, already referred the original poster to our forum, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=84308#p84308. If their members choose to ignore that advice, that is their prerogative. Often I have sensed that the members at the PMQTT do not think that our forum offers them much of value, possibly because they view us as amateurs and not professionals.
 
No, I do not. However, the pizzeria has been in business since the 1950s, so who am I to tell them to do otherwise?

Peter

Peter,

I see now that areotech already referred the original poster to our forum.  I think members of PMQTT could learn on this forum too, but they are probably too busy running their pizza businesses. 

I agree, that Claysburg Pizza Shop must be doing something right to be in business for so many years.  I really don’t think that many people really know about Detroit-style pizzas though.  I sure didn’t and still don’t know everything.

BTW, I just received a pdf. from JMFG Consumer Affairs a few minutes ago about the Margherita coarse pepperoni 38616 31329.  I can’t get the pdf. to print out so I can scan it.  What do you want me to do?  I can see it, but for some reason it won’t let me print it.  I am not sure if the pdf. has all the information you want.  I can work on trying to get it to print some more. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 12, 2012, 07:14:35 PM
BTW, I just received a pdf. from JMFG Consumer Affairs a few minutes ago about the Margherita coarse pepperoni 38616 31329.  I can’t get the pdf. to print out so I can scan it.  What do you want me to do?  I can see it, but for some reason it won’t let me print it.  I am not sure if the pdf. has all the information you want.  I can work on trying to get it to print some more. 

Norma,

Is there any information on number of servings or serving size, and is there any weight information for a single serving? And, if there is a serving size, is a number of slices of pepperoni per serving given?

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 12, 2012, 08:50:00 PM
Norma,

Is there any information on number of servings or serving size, and is there any weight information for a single serving? And, if there is a serving size, is a number of slices of pepperoni per serving given?

Peter

Peter,

I finally got the pdf. to print.  If you can't read the information, or need more information, let me know.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 12, 2012, 09:22:29 PM
Peter,

I did the scan again on the pdf. and this time just cut out the Nutrition Facts and enlarged them by resizing.  If that isn’t what you are looking for, let me know.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 12, 2012, 10:20:00 PM
Norma,

Thank you very much for the Margherita Nutrition Facts. The information I want is shown in the Nutrition Facts and the related data. Specifically, a serving size is one ounce (28 grams) and there are 15-17 pepperoni slices per ounce. That number of slices per ounce is fairly typical of retail level pepperoni slices.

My impression from what I read over at the Buddy's thread was that the Margherita slices used at Buddy's we're thicker than normal--about the size of a quarter (Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436/topicseen.html#msg81436). If that is correct, then it is possible that the slices used by Buddy's have a smaller diameter than normal but are thicker than normal. Pepperoni slice diameters and thicknesses are known pieces of information. Do you think you can get that information? While you are at it, maybe you can even request a sample of the Margherita pepperoni slices to test out with your Buddy's clone pizzas.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 12, 2012, 10:49:43 PM

Norma,

My impression from what I read over at the Buddy's thread was that the Margherita slices used at Buddy's we're thicker than normal--about the size of a quarter (Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436/topicseen.html#msg81436). If that is correct, then it is possible that the slices used by Buddy's have a smaller diameter than normal but are thicker than normal. Pepperoni slice diameters and thicknesses are known pieces of information. Do you think you can get that information? While you are at it, maybe you can even request a sample of the Margherita pepperoni slices to test out with your Buddy's clone pizzas.

Peter

Peter,

What specifically do you want me to ask?  Do you want me to ask if they sell smaller diameter slices that are thicker than what I asked about.  I might even request a sample of the Margherita coarse pepperoni slices to test out with my Buddy’s clone pizzas. 

Thanks for the link on the Buddy’s thread that explains more about the pepperoni.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 12, 2012, 11:24:56 PM
What specifically do you want me to ask?

Norma,

I'd like to know the diameter and thickness of the Magherita coarse pepperoni slices for which they gave you the Nutrition Facts today. Those numbers will most likely be given in centimeters (cm). Sometimes that information is given for the cooked stage. I will take whatever they give you. What I want to see is if the Margherita coarse pepperoni slices are, in fact, smaller and thicker than normal.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 13, 2012, 06:35:05 AM
Norma,

I'd like to know the diameter and thickness of the Magherita coarse pepperoni slices for which they gave you the Nutrition Facts today. Those numbers will most likely be given in centimeters (cm). Sometimes that information is given for the cooked stage. I will take whatever they give you. What I want to see is if the Margherita coarse pepperoni slices are, in fact, smaller and thicker than normal.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me what you want to know.  I will send a follow-up email today and if I don’t get any answers will call them on Wednesday.  I wasn’t sure if there was a smaller pepperoni size that you wanted to know about.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 13, 2012, 05:49:06 PM
Norma,

I have been following this recent PMQ Think Tank thread on the Detroit-style pizza with interest: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=13656.

You will note that a recent poster, Pizza of the Month, indicates at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=84376#p84376 that more than 3% oil should be used for that style, at least his version, and that cold fermenting the dough should be avoided. I tracked down the poster's website where you can see an example of his square pizza at http://www.claysburgpizza.com/pizza-and-stromboli.html. Is Claysburg, PA anywhere near you?

I agree with Pizza of the Month that the recipes cited in the abovereferenced PMQTT thread are not Detroit style recipes.

Peter


Peter, I'm 100% positive I tasted oil in the VIA 313 dough which is why I added 3% when I made my first Detroit pie last weekend: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21992.0.html. I don't think I need to go higher. Of course you know I'm not a big fan of cold fermentation.

My crust was thicker, but I thought the bite and flavor were very close to what I remembered (and I used SD but a relatively short fermentation).

CL

Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 13, 2012, 06:01:16 PM
Peter, I'm 100% positive I tasted oil in the VIA 313 dough which is why I added 3% when I made my first Detroit pie last weekend: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21992.0.html. I don't think I need to go higher. Of course you know I'm not a big fan of cold fermentation.

Craig,

Is it possible that you tasted the oil that was in the pan that was absorbed by the bottom crust as it baked? Buddy's does not use any oil in its dough, and the same applies to the Jet's dough that is used to make its square pizzas. However, in both cases, oil is used in the pan (soybean or canola in the case of Buddy's) and corn oil (in the case of Jet's). As you know, Norma liked the MFB shortening for greasing her pan at home.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 13, 2012, 06:22:48 PM
Craig,

Is it possible that you tasted the oil that was in the pan that was absorbed by the bottom crust as it baked? Buddy's does not use any oil in its dough, and the same applies to the Jet's dough that is used to make its square pizzas. However, in both cases, oil is used in the pan (soybean or canola in the case of Buddy's) and corn oil (in the case of Jet's). As you know, Norma liked the MFB shortening for greasing her pan at home.

Peter

Peter,

The reason why I am so sure is that Zane used butter flavored Crisco on the pan, and I could taste that. After I pulled the outer edge away, I could still taste oil, and it wasn't buttery. I didn't ask him, so I guess I can't be 100% certain, but I'm pretty sure.

I used butter flavored Crisco on the pan when I made mine. I really like it.

CL
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 08:11:39 AM
I was happy with the way the Buddy’s clone experiments went yesterday.  They were nowhere near perfect, but I think I am making decent progress.  At least the 3 attempts tasted very good, the bottom crust are crisp now, and my deck oven works without having to resort to placing the baked pizzas on the deck to crisp them up more.

I used my top deck to bake all three Buddy’s clones.  They all baked well at about 536 degrees F.  Two of the pans were greased with MFB and the one pan was greased with Canola oil.  The two pans greased with MFB did give the bottom crust a little more crisp, but Canola oil was no slouch either.  

After the first Buddy’s clone was made, Steve suggested we try not to sauce the pie before it went into the oven and to sauce it afterwards like Via 313 does.  I told Steve that isn’t the way Buddy’s does it, but we could try that method since I already had attempted one Buddy’s clone with applying the sauce on after the cheese, than baking that way.  The second Buddy’s clone was made with saucing after the bake.  4 ounces of sauce seemed too much when applied that way.  In the third Buddy’s clone attempt much less sauce was used and that seemed fine.  

I didn’t use any brick cheese this week.  AMPI mild white cheddar and my blend of mozzarellas were used.  In the 3rd Buddy’s attempt all AMPI mild white cheddar was used.  The tastes of the pizzas using these blend of cheeses or cheddar were really good.

I also wanted to see if it made any difference if the dough ball sat out for awhile and then panned the dough to be tempered, or if the dough can be opened cold and then tempered for a little.  I didn’t used the Hatco Unit for any of the tempers.  The tempers were all done at room temperature.  The ambient room temperature was about 75 degrees F.  The second and third dough balls, were opened cold right out of the deli case and then left to temper for a little.  It  didn’t seem to matter if the dough ball tempered at room temperature, or if the dough balls were opened cold.  All of the Buddy’s attempts had good oven spring and all were moist and tender in the crumb.  

To explain the first Buddy’s attempt the dough ball was taken out of the deli case at 1:58 PM.  It was left to temper at room temperature until 3:03 PM.  The dough ball was then lightly floured and opened.  It was easy to open and then it was placed in the steel pan.  The dough tempered in the steel pan until 4:35 PM.  It then was dressed and baked.  

The weight of first attempt right after is came out of the oven was 1.2888 lb.  This Buddy’s attempt did have 8 ounces of the cheese blend and 4 ounces of sauce applied.  It can be seen on the dough ball the spacing of the poppy seeds when it was taken out of the deli case and after the room temperature temper.  It did double in size before I used the dough ball to make a pizza.  MFB was used to grease the pan for the first pizza.  It can be seen in the picture of the steel pan how much the pan was greased with MFB.  The first bake took 11 minutes 35 seconds.  

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 08:13:30 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 08:15:05 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 08:18:58 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 08:20:24 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 08:22:40 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 08:24:56 AM
To explain the second Buddy’s attempt the dough ball was opened cold right out of the deli case at 3:16 PM and was tempered at room temperature until 5:26 before it was made into a pizza.  In this attempt the sauce (4 ounces) was applied after the bake.  AMPI mild white cheddar and my blend of mozzarellas were used.  MFB was used to grease the steel pan in this attempt too.  This attempt took 11 minutes 19 seconds to bake. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 08:26:38 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 08:30:26 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 08:33:54 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 08:34:58 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 08:36:19 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 08:38:43 AM
In the 3rd Buddy’s attempt, the dough ball was opened cold right out of the deli case too.  I didn’t time how long the dough took to temper, but just watched until I thought the dough in the pan looked tempered enough.  The time wasn’t as long as the 1st or 2nd attempt though.  This was the quickest method and it seemed to work okay.  Canola oil was used in the steel pan for this attempt.  The 3rd attempt only had AMPI mild white cheddar and I only applied a much less of my regular market sauce after the bake.  I didn’t time the 3rd bake.  Oven spring doesn’t seem to be affected by using different methods, at least in my opinion.

My brother is really liking this style of pizza too.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 08:40:14 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 08:41:34 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 14, 2012, 09:20:03 AM
Norma, your Buddy's pies are looking great.

How much dough are you using for an 8x10?

I didn't open the dough ball so to speak. I dropped the ball into the pan and let it flow for 6 hours. I'm going to give it a little more time next week.

I liked 100% white cheddar on the edges (piled higher than in the center) and WM mozz with a little cheddar in the center.

CL
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 09:50:21 AM
Norma, your Buddy's pies are looking great.

How much dough are you using for an 8x10?

I didn't open the dough ball so to speak. I dropped the ball into the pan and let it flow for 6 hours. I'm going to give it a little more time next week.

I liked 100% white cheddar on the edges (piled higher than in the center) and WM mozz with a little cheddar in the center.

CL

Craig,

Thanks for saying the Buddy’s pies are looking great.  :)

I am using 277 grams of dough for the 8”x10” steel pans.

I also thought of just dropping the dough into the pan and letting it either flow, or slowing pressing it out by hand.  That is what my friend Trenton Bills does, because he says the dough is too sticky.  He told me he uses his knuckles to gently press the dough in the pans.  I am trying to open the dough and temper it as fast as I can if I want to make the Buddy's clones at market.

Thanks for telling me how you apply the cheeses and what cheeses you used.

Norma 
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 09:52:57 AM
Peter,

I called Amour Eckrich and spoke with another woman this morning.  She then talked to Lisa and said that Lisa had sent my request for information about the Margherita coarse grind slice pepperoni to Raymond in customer service because they don’t have the information about the diameter and thickness of the Margherita coarse pepperoni and how that relates to the Nutrition Facts.  She then transferred me to Raymond and he said his manager was working on that information.  I also asked again if the information would relate to the cooked stage or not.  Raymond told me they also have a non curling pepperoni and I asked if the Margherita coarse sliced pepperoni is a curling pepperoni and he said he doesn’t think it was.  I told him my friend uses Vermont Smoked pepperoni in his wood-fired pizzas, so I know what curling pepperonis are.  I don’t even know why Raymond mentioned the non curling pepperoni slices.

Raymond said he would send me a email when he receives the information I requested. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 14, 2012, 10:08:34 AM
Raymond told me they also have a non curling pepperoni and I asked if the Margherita coarse sliced pepperoni is a curling pepperoni and he said he doesn’t think it was.  I told him my friend uses Vermont Smoked pepperoni in his wood-fired pizzas, so I know what curling pepperonis are.  I don’t even know why Raymond mentioned the non curling pepperoni slices.

You have at least two friends using Vermont Smoked pepperoni in their wood-fired pizzas.  ;D

Raymond may have thought you wanted non-curling pepperoni. It might be what he automatically assumes. In my experience working for Hormel, the VAST majority of operators want a non-curling, non-greasing pepperoni.

CL
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 14, 2012, 10:26:00 AM
Norma,

It is encouraging to see that you were able to bake the latest round of Buddy's clone pizzas in your oven at market without having to go to great lengths to get them to come out right. It is also interesting to see that the type of oven and bake temperatures can vary quite a bit yet get good results. For example, Buddy's uses an infrared conveyor oven and a bake temperature of about 495 degrees F and a bake time of around 11-12 minutes; Via 313 uses a Bakers Pride countertop deck oven and a bake temperature of around 525 degrees F and a bake time of around 15 minutes; in your case, you used the upper part of your regular Bakers Pride deck oven and a bake temperature of 536 degrees F and a bake time of slightly less than 12 minutes. To add to these examples, yesterday I was reading a writeup of Loui's Pizza at http://www2.metrotimes.com/food/review.asp?rid=22572 in which it was reported that Loui's is "able to achieve that perfect char because their special pizza ovens reach a higher-than-normal temperature". I have no idea as to what that special oven is or its temperature but it does not appear that those factors are inhibiting to making a decent pizza. Another positive on this score is that you have demonstrated that it is possible to make decent clones in your home electric oven and in your mother's home gas oven. Moreover, it does not seem to matter all that much how how the dough is made, managed and fermented. Whether one uses oil or a solid fat in the pan also does not seem to matter all that much.

As usual, I have some questions:

1. Have you developed a preference among the many Buddy's clone pizzas you have attempted to date and, if so, which one(s)? For example, do you prefer a cold fermentation over an emergency type fermentation? Do you prefer one type of cheese or blend over another? One type of oil or fat to use in the pans? Or maybe something else?

2. What would you want to see in the way of results so that you could say that the pizzas were "perfect"?

3. Did you weigh the second and third pizzas after baking?

FYI, for the first Buddy's clone dough, the spacing of the two poppy seeds as of the time the dough came out of your deli case suggests that the dough doubled in volume over the course of its initial brief time (15 minutes) at room temperature and its subsequent cold fermentation from 9:20 AM on Monday to 1:58 PM yesterday, or a total elapsed time of about 29 hours. That was just about perfect. By 3:03 PM yesterday, after the temper of that first dough ball, I estimate that the dough ball rose by about another 25%. Also just about perfect. As for the finished baked pizza, based on the information you provided (a final weight of 1.2888 pounds vs. an unbaked weight of 21.77 ounces), I estimate that its loss during baking was 5.28%. This number is interesting but it may not tell us a lot since your pizza was quite a bit different than a basic Buddy's pizza. Actually, I was hoping that you would make a Buddy's clone with brick cheese and pepperoni so that I could compare that data with the data that dicepackage gave us for one of his real Buddy's pepperoni pizza, and in the context of a professional oven rather than a standard home oven. An even truer test would be an emergency dough version at market using your Bakers Pride deck oven. Even then, some differences would remain because of the different types of ovens and bake temperatures and times and the likelihood of different losses during baking.

Peter

Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 14, 2012, 10:41:43 AM
I also thought of just dropping the dough into the pan and letting it either flow, or slowing pressing it out by hand.  That is what my friend Trenton Bills does, because he says the dough is too sticky.  He told me he uses his knuckles to gently press the dough in the pans.  I am trying to open the dough and temper it as fast as I can if I want to make the Buddy's clones at market.

Norma,

If Trenton Bill used the PizzaHog clone dough formulation that I converted to baker's percents at Reply 32 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg219524.html#msg219524, with a hydration value of 92.36%, then the dough would have easily flowed to fill the pan. However, based on the actual ingredient quantities that Trenton Bill gave you, the formulation had a much lower hydration, as indicated in Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg218034.html#msg218034. In retrospect, Pizzahog has to be given a great deal of credit for what he did to come up with a credible Buddy's clone. Hopefully, at some point we may be able to zero in even more closely to a real Buddy's dough formulation.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 11:15:35 AM
You have at least two friends using Vermont Smoked pepperoni in their wood-fired pizzas.  ;D

Raymond may have thought you wanted non-curling pepperoni. It might be what he automatically assumes. In my experience working for Hormel, the VAST majority of operators want a non-curling, non-greasing pepperoni.

CL

Craig,

I know I have at least two friends that use the Vermont Smoked pepperoni in their wood-fired pizzas.  ;D I also love the Vermont Smoked pepperoni.  The other pepperoni that Steve gave me that I tried in my moms gas oven was also very good.  I tried that on wood-fired pizzas and it did taste almost the same and also curled nicely just about like the Vermont Smoked pepperoni and it sure is a lot cheaper.  It didn’t curl though in when placed under the cheese in my moms gas oven. 

My pepperoni I use at market is really greasy and sure doesn‘t curl. 

I am not sure what Raymond meant when he said they also carried non curling pepperoni.  When I asked Raymond if the pepperoni I was asking about curled, he said he didn’t think so.  That statement was a little confusing to me, but at the time, didn’t think to ask more.  :-\

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 11:18:31 AM
Peter,

I knew you would have questions.  :-D I will answer them later today after I take my brother to the airport.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 04:45:12 PM
Peter,

I just spoke to Shawn Kaylor at Armour Eckrich on the phone.

This is what he had to say.  He just shot me an email with the same information that he told me when he spoke to me.  I had asked where I could purchase the Margherita coarse grind slice pepperoni in my area too.  Looks like Detroit is a popular area that the Margherita coarse grind sliced pepperoni is sold. 

Norma,

It was great talking to you. Per our conversation, the product is 36MM (Standard Pepperoni is 44MM) and is sliced 15-17 slices per oz. It will appear thicker than standard pizza pepperoni as it is smaller in diameter.
The product is not a cup n char product.
The closest distributors in your area pulling are as such. Your local distributor can also pull this item from DOT Foods, if they currently are set up to pull from DOT Foods. DOT is a National Re-Distribution Company.
Finally, I will have our regional sales manager touch base with you.

ANTONIO SOFO & SON OH   TOLEDO   OH   Ohio
CARAMAGNO FOODS COMPANY   DETROIT   MI   Michigan
BNCC SYSCO CLEVELAND INC   CLEVELAND   OH   Ohio
DOT FOODS INC-FROZEN WAREHOUSE   MOUNT STERLING   IL   Illinois
RDP FOODSERVICE   COLUMBUS   OH   Ohio
SIDARIS ITALIAN FOODS   CLEVELAND   OH   Ohio


Shawn Kaylor
Business Development / National Account Sales

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 04:56:52 PM
I forgot to post that Shawn told me over the phone that the target amount for one ounce is 16 slices, but it can vary between 15-17 slices.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 14, 2012, 05:44:01 PM
I forgot to post that Shawn told me over the phone that the target amount for one ounce is 16 slices, but it can vary between 15-17 slices.

Norma

If you count them, most brands will tend towards the thicker (lower slice count) end of the range. They sell more that way.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 05:53:29 PM
Norma,

It is encouraging to see that you were able to bake the latest round of Buddy's clone pizzas in your oven at market without having to go to great lengths to get them to come out right. It is also interesting to see that the type of oven and bake temperatures can vary quite a bit yet get good results. For example, Buddy's uses an infrared conveyor oven and a bake temperature of about 495 degrees F and a bake time of around 11-12 minutes; Via 313 uses a Bakers Pride countertop deck oven and a bake temperature of around 525 degrees F and a bake time of around 15 minutes; in your case, you used the upper part of your regular Bakers Pride deck oven and a bake temperature of 536 degrees F and a bake time of slightly less than 12 minutes. To add to these examples, yesterday I was reading a writeup of Loui's Pizza at http://www2.metrotimes.com/food/review.asp?rid=22572 in which it was reported that Loui's is "able to achieve that perfect char because their special pizza ovens reach a higher-than-normal temperature". I have no idea as to what that special oven is or its temperature but it does not appear that those factors are inhibiting to making a decent pizza. Another positive on this score is that you have demonstrated that it is possible to make decent clones in your home electric oven and in your mother's home gas oven. Moreover, it does not seem to matter all that much how how the dough is made, managed and fermented. Whether one uses oil or a solid fat in the pan also does not seem to matter all that much.

As usual, I have some questions:

1. Have you developed a preference among the many Buddy's clone pizzas you have attempted to date and, if so, which one(s)? For example, do you prefer a cold fermentation over an emergency type fermentation? Do you prefer one type of cheese or blend over another? One type of oil or fat to use in the pans? Or maybe something else?

2. What would you want to see in the way of results so that you could say that the pizzas were "perfect"?

3. Did you weigh the second and third pizzas after baking?

FYI, for the first Buddy's clone dough, the spacing of the two poppy seeds as of the time the dough came out of your deli case suggests that the dough doubled in volume over the course of its initial brief time (15 minutes) at room temperature and its subsequent cold fermentation from 9:20 AM on Monday to 1:58 PM yesterday, or a total elapsed time of about 29 hours. That was just about perfect. By 3:03 PM yesterday, after the temper of that first dough ball, I estimate that the dough ball rose by about another 25%. Also just about perfect. As for the finished baked pizza, based on the information you provided (a final weight of 1.2888 pounds vs. an unbaked weight of 21.77 ounces), I estimate that its loss during baking was 5.28%. This number is interesting but it may not tell us a lot since your pizza was quite a bit different than a basic Buddy's pizza. Actually, I was hoping that you would make a Buddy's clone with brick cheese and pepperoni so that I could compare that data with the data that dicepackage gave us for one of his real Buddy's pepperoni pizza, and in the context of a professional oven rather than a standard home oven. An even truer test would be an emergency dough version at market using your Bakers Pride deck oven. Even then, some differences would remain because of the different types of ovens and bake temperatures and times and the likelihood of different losses during baking.

Peter



Peter,

I had thought until yesterday that I might have to go though great lengths to get the Buddy’s clone baked right in my deck oven with screens or trying other methods.  That wasn’t the case yesterday though.  It seems like my top deck bakes just fine with using MFB or Canola oil.  I wonder what temperature Buddy’s used years ago when they used a deck oven. 

Thank you for the link about Loui’s Pizza.  I find it interesting that Louis Tourtois learned his trade while working at Buddy’s for 17 years and Shield’s for 7 years.  Louis sure had a good head-start with working at those Detroit pizzerias for such a long while.  I see he uses higher than normal bake temperature in their special pizza oven, but as you noted you don‘t know what kind of oven or bake temperatures he uses.  At the end of the article it says that the all-female waitstaff, many whom are in their second decade at Loui’s and goes on to say Typical is the exuberant Diane, who, placing her hand on your shoulder, may ask, "What can I get you, hon?"  That made me chuckle because my one sign at market does almost says "What can I get you, hon?"   :-D

I agree that it is possible to be able to make a decent Buddy’s clone at market, in my home electric oven, or even my moms gas oven and it isn’t difficult in any of those ovens. 

One of the reasons I wanted to do those experiments yesterday to see if it mattered on how the dough is made, managed and fermented.  It really didn’t seem to matter, at least in those experiments.

To answer your question.

1.  No, I haven’t developed a preference among the Buddy’s clone pizzas I have attempted to this date.  It doesn’t seem to matter if the dough is an emergency dough, or if the dough is cold fermented.  The taste of the crust stays the same to me.  I think my preference is using the AMPI mild white cheddar and a blend of mozzarellas.  Since I never tried a real Buddy’s pizza though, I have no idea how their brick cheese, or blend tastes.  I have tried enough of blends though in other styles of pizzas. 

2.  I really can’t ever say there is a “perfect pizza” in any category.  As you know I have tried so many styles of pizzas, with many ovens and many formulations.  I am always learning about all styles of pizzas and when I think I have found what might be called my “perfect” pizza it can change as it did many times.  I did like the one attempt in my mom’s home oven and the third Buddy’s attempt I did at market yesterday the best so far.   

3.  I did weigh the second pizza that was made yesterday, but didn’t write the weight down.  I know it was 1.4 lb. something, but thought what was the use in writing it down and then posting it since the sauce was applied after the bake.  I thought that since none of the water would be taken out of the sauce in the bake, the weight of that pizza wouldn’t tell anything.  I did use 4 ounces of sauce and 8 ounces of cheese though.  For the last pizza that was made yesterday, I didn’t add 8 ounces of cheese, or 4 ounces of sauce.  I just added what I thought was enough of the AMPI mild cheddar, then just applied less sauce than I did for my second attempt.  Weighing that wouldn’t be of much help either in my opinion.

Thanks for explaining about how much the dough fermented by looking at the pictures and timelines.  I did post at Reply 291 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg223345.html#msg22334 5 that the first dough ball was left to temper at room temperature from 1:58 PM when it was taken out of the deli case, until 3:03 PM in the plastic container.  Did you get that mixed-up that the dough had doubled in what you posted as 15 minutes, or is it me that is confused?  I am not sure I am understanding that. 

Thank you for also telling me what the weigh loss was. 

I didn’t know you wanted me to try brick cheese and pepperoni on an attempted Buddy’s clone yesterday.  I was going to put pepperoni (Steve’s stick brand) under the cheese on that attempt, but got too busy to cut the stick.  If you want me to I can try the brick cheese and Steve’s pepperoni next week I can. 

I don’t know if I am ready to try an emergency dough at market.  I am pretty busy in the mornings without Steve, since I am the one that has to do everything.  If you think I could make the emergency dough at home, maybe I could try that. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 05:56:40 PM
If you count them, most brands will tend towards the thicker (lower slice count) end of the range. They sell more that way.

Craig,

I didn't know that most brands lower slice count end of of the range, meaning they sell more that way.  I am only familiar with what I normally use.

Thanks for the information!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 14, 2012, 06:03:49 PM
Norma,

Thank you very much for the latest information on the Margherita #38616-31329 coarse grind pepperoni.

Actually, the information on serving size and number of slices per serving size you previously gave me was sufficient for me to do some calculation as to the weight of pepperoni slices on a Buddy's 4-square pizza. However, I wanted to be absolutely certain that the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni slices were smaller but thicker than the most common sizes that I have seen at retail and from my research on the matter. The 35mm diameter size that you got from Armour Eckrich converts to about 1.42" (36 x 0.03937 = 1.42"). You might recall that one of our members reported that the pepperoni slices used on Buddy's pizzas were about the size of a quarter. Since the diameter of a quarter is about an inch, the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni slices are actually almost 1/2" larger in diameter. The 44mm slice is about 1.73".

While I was awaiting your update on this matter, I went back to the Buddy's Nutrition webpage at http://www.buddyspizza.com/nutrition.asp?Category=3 and did a comparison of the nutrition information of a basic Buddy's cheese slice and a basic Buddy's cheese and pepperoni slice. I assumed that the only difference between a Buddy's cheese pizza and a Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza was the pepperoni slices. I also assumed that there are 20 pepperoni slices on a Buddy's 4-square pizza, or an average of 5 slices per square. I got the total slice number from the photo given at http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Mf788bNv6xv/340x.jpg. That is the only photo that I have seen with the pepperoni slices assembled on the pizza before the cheese is added on top of the pepperoni slices. For purposes of my calculations, I assumed that there were 16 pepperoni slices per ounce. On that basis, 20 slices weigh 1.25 ounces.

Using the above information together with the Margherita Nutrition Facts that you provided at Reply 283 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg223137.html#msg223137, I was able to effectively bridge the nutrition information between a Buddy's cheese slice and a Buddy's cheese and pepperoni slice. The factors I looked at included Total Fat, Sat Fat, Cholesterol, Sodium and Protein. There are rounding factors that I could not account for but I believe that the comparison I conducted supports the conclusion that Buddy's is using 20 slices of the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni for a 4-square pizza. This does not rule out the possibility that Buddy's is using a larger size pepperoni slice in one or more of its locations since the number of such slices per serving size is similar to the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni product. The slices would be larger and thinner but weigh the same in total. I have no evidence that Buddy's is using the larger size pepperoni slices.

Peter

Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 14, 2012, 06:06:01 PM
Craig,

I didn't know that most brands lower slice count end of of the range, meaning they sell more that way.  I am only familiar with what I normally use.

Thanks for the information!  :)

Norma
;D  Bless your heart Norma...
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 06:18:09 PM
Norma,

If Trenton Bill used the PizzaHog clone dough formulation that I converted to baker's percents at Reply 32 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg219524.html#msg219524, with a hydration value of 92.36%, then the dough would have easily flowed to fill the pan. However, based on the actual ingredient quantities that Trenton Bill gave you, the formulation had a much lower hydration, as indicated in Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg218034.html#msg218034. In retrospect, Pizzahog has to be given a great deal of credit for what he did to come up with a credible Buddy's clone. Hopefully, at some point we may be able to zero in even more closely to a real Buddy's dough formulation.

Peter

Peter,

I think Trenton Bill was confused in what he really used, but at least it worked for him and me when you converted the recipe at Reply 13 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg218034.html#msg218034  and I used Pizzahog’s TF.

Trenton Bill called me Monday evening to talk more about how I mix the dough I am using now.  He said his dough is still too sticky to do what I am doing.  I am not sure if he has used the dough calculating tools, but he is using a bigger pan than I have in my recent attempts.  I told Trenton Bill I would call him back to see if I can help him more with his stickyness since my brother was at my home at the time.  Trenton Bill originally tried one of Pizzahogs formulations on the Buddy’s thread because he likes a Sicilian pie in his area and never could duplicate it.  I wish Trenton Bill would become a member and have told him that many times, because he plays around with pizzas as much as I do.   

I agree that Pizzahog has to be given a great deal of credit for what he did to come up with a credible Buddy’s clone.  If it wasn’t for him, I wouldn’t be making the Buddy’s clone attempts I am now.  Pizzahog kept at trying to make a credible clone for a long while.   ;D  Thanks so much Pizzahog!!  :pizza: :chef:

I also hope we can zero in even more with a real Buddy’s dough formulation, but I am about satisfied with what you converted right now. 

I think I still might have to purchase a real Buddy’s pizza.  If only it wasn’t so expensive to get it shipped.  I am still thinking about purchasing one.  I talked to Steve about that yesterday and Steve said the Buddy’s clones I have been trying probably are better than a par-baked Buddy’s pizza.  That is one thing that is keeping me from purchasing one, because I have an adversity to par-baked pizza.

I did call about my larger steel pans I ordered and they told me the shipping tags were made out last Tuesday and the pans really weren’t shipped then.  They told me my bigger steel pan would be shipped yesterday.  I am anxious to try them. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 06:33:10 PM
Norma,

Thank you very much for the latest information on the Margherita #38616-31329 coarse grind pepperoni.

Actually, the information on serving size and number of slices per serving size you previously gave me was sufficient for me to do some calculation as to the weight of pepperoni slices on a Buddy's 4-square pizza. However, I wanted to be absolutely certain that the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni slices were smaller but thicker than the most common sizes that I have seen at retail and from my research on the matter. The 35mm diameter size that you got from Armour Eckrich converts to about 1.42" (36 x 0.03937 = 1.42"). You might recall that one of our members reported that the pepperoni slices used on Buddy's pizzas were about the size of a quarter. Since the diameter of a quarter is about an inch, the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni slices are actually almost 1/2" larger in diameter. The 44mm slice is about 1.73".

While I was awaiting your update on this matter, I went back to the Buddy's Nutrition webpage at http://www.buddyspizza.com/nutrition.asp and did a comparison of the nutrition information of a basic Buddy's cheese slice and a basic Buddy's cheese and pepperoni slice. I assumed that the only difference between a Buddy's cheese pizza and a Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza was the pepperoni slices. I also assumed that there are 20 pepperoni slices on a Buddy's 4-square pizza, or an average of 5 slices per square. I got the total slice number from the photo given at http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Mf788bNv6xv/340x.jpg. That is the only photo that I have seen with the pepperoni slices assembled on the pizza before the cheese is added on top of the pepperoni slices. For purposes of my calculations, I assumed that there were 16 pepperoni slices per ounce. On that basis, 20 slices weigh 1.25 ounces.

Using the above information together with the Margherita Nutrition Facts that you provided at Reply 283 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg223137.html#msg223137, I was able to effectively bridge the nutrition information between a Buddy's cheese slice and a Buddy's cheese and pepperoni slice. The factors I looked at included Total Fat, Sat Fat, Cholesterol, Sodium and Protein. There are rounding factors that I could not account for but I believe that the comparison I conducted supports the conclusion that Buddy's is using 20 slices of the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni for a 4-square pizza. This does not rule out the possibility that Buddy's is using a larger size pepperoni slice in one or more of its locations since the number of such slices per serving size is similar to the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni product. The slices would be larger and thinner but weigh the same in total. I have no evidence that Buddy's is using the larger size pepperoni slices.

Peter




Peter,

I still don’t know how you do the calculations from Nutrition Facts and go from there to clone a pizza, but find it very interesting.  How you effectively bridge the nutrition information between a Buddy’s cheese slice and a Buddy’s cheese and pepperoni slice is amazing.  Thanks for telling what factors you look for.  Thanks also for the link to the assembling of the pepperoni on a Buddy’s pizza.  I saw that from the same link you referenced before, but it refreshes my memory.

Thanks for doing the calculations and showing what they are. 

If I try another Buddy’s attempt next week with pepperoni I guess I will go with 1.25 ounces of pepperoni no matter what kind I use, since that is the number you posted.  Do you have a preference on what brand I try? 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 14, 2012, 06:56:25 PM
Norma,

Thanks for explaining about how much the dough fermented by looking at the pictures and timelines.  I did post at Reply 291 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg223345.html#msg22334 5 that the first dough ball was left to temper at room temperature from 1:58 PM when it was taken out of the deli case, until 3:03 PM in the plastic container.  Did you get that mixed-up that the dough had doubled in what you posted as 15 minutes, or is it me that is confused?  I am not sure I am understanding that.

I believe I stated everything correctly but it is possible that I misstated something because I had to go to several of your posts to piecemeal everything together. However, if you look at the first photo that you posted in Reply 291 showing the two poppy seeds separated by 1 1/4", the dough had about doubled by that point. If you look at the second photo in that post showing the poppy seeds separated by a tad more than 1 1/4", the dough had increased in volume by about another 25%. If you are interested, I believe that this is the entire timeline:

9:05 AM to 9:20 AM, Monday: 15-min. room temperature rest before placing the dough in the deli case
9:20 AM Monday to 1:58 PM Tuesday: Dough cold ferments in the deli case
1:58 PM to 3:03 PM, Tuesday: Dough out of the deli case and tempers in its storage container at room temperature
3:03 PM to 4:35 PM, Tuesday: Dough out of its storage container and tempers at room temperature in pan (8" x 10")

The total elapsed time I mentioned was up to the point of the second photo you showed with the poppy seeds.

I didn’t know you wanted me to try brick cheese and pepperoni on an attempted Buddy’s clone yesterday.  I was going to put pepperoni (Steve’s stick brand) under the cheese on that attempt, but got too busy to cut the stick.  If you want me to I can try the brick cheese and Steve’s pepperoni next week I can.  

I don’t know if I am ready to try an emergency dough at market.  I am pretty busy in the mornings without Steve, since I am the one that has to do everything.  If you think I could make the emergency dough at home, maybe I could try that.
 
The reason why I was interested in a Buddy's 4-square cheese and pepperoni pizza based on using an emergency type dough, brick cheese, and baked in your deck oven at market is because that would be likely to produce the best loss information, especially since your bake temperature and time are similar to Buddy's. That loss information is what would be used with the Margherita pepperoni information and the information that dicepackage provided to try to close in on the amount of dough that Buddy's uses to make its square pizzas. For now, I plan to play around with the loss data we have accumulated to date to see what the variances are and whether they are material to the calculations.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 14, 2012, 07:07:49 PM
Norma,

I still don’t know how you do the calculations from Nutrition Facts and go from there to clone a pizza, but find it very interesting.  How you effectively bridge the nutrition information between a Buddy’s cheese slice and a Buddy’s cheese and pepperoni slice is amazing.
As I previously mentioned, I was not particularly enamored of the Buddy's Nutrition information. However, I felt that analyzing the differences between a Buddy's cheese slice and a Buddy's cheese and pepperoni slice, on the assumption that a Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza is the same as a Buddy's cheese pizza but with pepperoni added, would be productive and perhaps tell me what Buddy's is using for pepperoni and in what amount. The math for doing this is very simple.

If I try another Buddy’s attempt next week with pepperoni I guess I will go with 1.25 ounces of pepperoni no matter what kind I use, since that is the number you posted.  Do you have a preference on what brand I try? 
As long as you use 1.25 ounces (35 grams) of pepperoni slices, it shouldn't matter what brand of pepperoni you use. Use a brand that you personally enjoy.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 07:32:56 PM
Norma,
 
I believe I stated everything correctly but it is possible that I misstated something because I had to go to several of your posts to piecemeal everything together. However, if you look at the first photo that you posted in Reply 291 showing the two poppy seeds separated by 1 1/4", the dough had about doubled by that point. If you look at the second photo in that post showing the poppy seeds separated by a tad more than 1 1/4", the dough had increased in volume by about another 25%. If you are interested, I believe that this is the entire timeline:

9:05 AM to 9:20 AM, Monday: 15-min. room temperature rest before placing the dough in the deli case
9:20 AM Monday to 1:58 PM Tuesday: Dough cold ferments in the deli case
1:58 PM to 3:03 PM, Tuesday: Dough out of the deli case and tempers in its storage container at room temperature
3:03 PM to 4:35 PM, Tuesday: Dough out of its storage container and tempers at room temperature in pan (8" x 10")

The total elapsed time I mentioned was up to the point of the second photo you showed with the poppy seeds.
 
The reason why I was interested in a Buddy's 4-square cheese and pepperoni pizza based on using an emergency type dough, brick cheese, and baked in your deck oven at market is because that would be likely to produce the best loss information, especially since your bake temperature and time are similar to Buddy's. That loss information is what would be used with the Margherita pepperoni information and the information that dicepackage provided to try to close in on the amount of dough that Buddy's uses to make its square pizzas. Fo now, I plan to play around with the loss data we have accumulated to date to see what the variances are and whether they are material to the calculations.

Peter


Peter,

I believe you posted everything correctly, and believe it was me that was confused. 

Thanks for posting the timeline.  I was interested.

I can try an emergency dough if I get up early enough on Tuesday if you think that will be helpful since my bake time temperature and time are similar to Buddy’s in my deck oven. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 07:40:02 PM
Norma,
As I previously mentioned, I was not particularly enamored of the Buddy's Nutrition information. However, I felt that analyzing the differences between a Buddy's cheese slice and a Buddy's cheese and pepperoni slice, on the assumption that a Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza is the same as a Buddy's cheese pizza but with pepperoni added, would be productive and perhaps tell me what Buddy's is using for pepperoni and in what amount. The math for doing this is very simple.
As long as you use 1.25 ounces (35 grams) of pepperoni slices, it shouldn't matter what brand of pepperoni you use. Use a brand that you personally enjoy.

Peter


Peter,

I know you were not particularly enamored of Buddy’s Nutrition information.  I think what you did with the Buddy’s cheese and pepperoni slice, on the assumption that a Buddy’s cheese and pepperoni pizza are the same as a Buddy’s cheese pizza, but without the pepperoni added was productive.  The math might be simple for you, but surely not for me. 

I think I will use the brand of pepperoni Steve brought for me to try.  I really like that pepperoni.  It is a curling pepperoni, but didn’t curl for me when place under the cheese at my moms.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 14, 2012, 07:51:11 PM
I can try an emergency dough if I get up early enough on Tuesday if you think that will be helpful since my bake time temperature and time are similar to Buddy’s in my deck oven. 

Norma,

We have plenty of time to address this matter. The range of losses of the Buddy's clones you have made to date run from about 5.28% to almost 11%. Maybe I can find the one that was closest to a Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza and use the weight loss for that clone for my calculations.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 08:53:57 PM
Norma,

We have plenty of time to address this matter. The range of losses of the Buddy's clones you have made to date run from about 5.28% to almost 11%. Maybe I can find the one that was closest to a Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza and use the weight loss for that clone for my calculations.

Peter


Peter,

The range of losses of the Buddy’s attempts I made were wide in my opinion.  Thanks for posting what the ranges were.  Let me if you change your mind in me trying an emergency Buddy’s clone with pepperoni for Tuesday.  It really doesn’t take that long to mix one dough ball.

I might try a larger batch of Buddy’s clone dough balls on Monday at market for customers to taste test or sell Tuesday, if I get my new steel pans until then.  So far, when customers, or potential customers saw the Buddy’s clone pizzas they were interested in them.  I will wait and see if the people are still interested when I start making the Buddy’s clone for sale. I just need to figured out how many dough balls that might be.  I know I usually need at least a 5 dough ball batch of NY style dough for my Hobart to mix properly, but it will be much more than a 5 dough ball batch with the low weight of what I have been using for the Buddy‘s clones.

I think I am going to purchase a 25 lb. bag of the bromated Occident flour on Friday.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Tscarborough on November 14, 2012, 09:19:45 PM
Norma, those are some beautiful pizzas.  I have never had a Buddy's, but I have had some Detroit style.  I like to put the sauce on a few minutes before it is done, then put it back in. 

I think a lot of the time disparity is oven difference and the fact that in a busy oven, times will expand with use, which is not an issue when cooking one or two
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2012, 09:40:24 PM
Norma, those are some beautiful pizzas.  I have never had a Buddy's, but I have had some Detroit style.  I like to put the sauce on a few minutes before it is done, then put it back in. 

I think a lot of the time disparity is oven difference and the fact that in a busy oven, times will expand with use, which is not an issue when cooking one or two

Tom,

Thanks for your kind words.  :) I also never had a real Buddy’s pizza.  You are lucky that you had the opportunity to try some Detroit style pies.  I guess they were from Via 313.  Thanks for posting you like to put the sauce on a few minutes before the pizza is done.  That is a great tip!   ;D

I agree that how many times an oven door is opened and shut will make differences in how the pizzas are baked, or how long they take to bake.  I see that in my deck oven all the time.  I also saw that in my moms gas oven, because I kept opening the door on her gas oven because I wasn’t sure how her gas oven was going to bake in the first Buddy‘s clone I tried at her home.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 15, 2012, 10:19:26 AM
Peter,

I don’t know if you or other members saw this article from a blogger, but the article talks about Detroit Style Pizzas.  At Detroit Style Pizza they do use a deck oven to bake their Detroit Style pizzas.  A picture of the deck oven is shown in this bloggers article.
http://greatlakesbetterfood.blogspot.com/2012/08/an-extended-look-at-all-square-history.html

I wonder if the fermenting pans of dough at Detroit Style pizza are never covered.  I would think the skins would develop a dryness, or crust on top.  That was something like when I used my Hatco Unit last week and I even covered the pans, but somehow air must have gotten inside the pans and formed a dry skin, or crust on them.  The dry skins didn’t seem to do anything in my Buddy’s attempts in how the crust rose in the oven though.  The crumb was still moist too. 

The blogger also mentions Pizza Making with helping him find information.

The pans sitting out without a lid can also be seen at an article on Slice about Loui’s Pizza.  The pans are cross stacked like Detroit Style pizza pans.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/09/louis-pizza-hazel-park-michigan-mi-detroit-thick-crust.html?ref=search

I wonder if it even matters if covers or lids aren’t on the steel pan while they are tempering at room temperature.

For anyone that has a face book page it can be seen that Brown Dog Pizza, another pizzeria that offers Detroit style pizza, did bake their Detroit style pizzas in the American Pizza Championships on September 9, 2011 in a deck oven.  There are a lot of pictures on Brown Dog Pizza facebook page.

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Brown-Dog-Pizza/82497826397?ref=ts&sk=photos#!/media/set/?set=a.10150304492986398.336098.82497826397&type=3   Brown Dog Pizza Detroit style looks a little bit thicker to me.  Brown Dog Pizza won a championship for their Detroit style pizzas.

I copied a few pictures off of Brown Dogs Pizza facebook page incase members don’t have a facebook page to look at the pictures .  The one picture with the deck oven also shows a pan sitting on top of the oven with no cover on the steel pan.  I don’t know what make those deck oven are.

Did anyone ever post whether the pans are covered or not here on the forum at Buddy’s and do you think it would make any differences?

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 15, 2012, 10:24:47 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 15, 2012, 10:47:53 AM
Seems like Tony Gemignai’s also helped Smokeitch create his Detroit-style pizzas.

http://www.browndogpizza.net/UserFiles/File/BrownDog-watch-9-29-11.pdf

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 15, 2012, 11:11:52 AM
I received my 3 pre-seasoned steel pizza pans today from Detroit Style Pizza Co. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Skee on November 15, 2012, 12:51:21 PM
Norma - in the first picture of the second post of Brown Dog pics, do you know what he's putting along the edge of the crust with the pastry blade?  Looks like butter to me.

Here are some pics from Tuesday's dinner.  I did a 24-hour room-temp (low 70s) rise and didn't want to over-proof, so I used 15g of sourdough starter (2%) for two 350g crusts, 70% hydration, KASL, with minimal kneading up front and two ballings (one after ~12 hours of bulk rise, the second about six hours later, just before panning), then let the dough rise in the pans for five hours before pressing and stretching, followed by about an hour proofing in a warm oven.  Used the convection-bake option set at 500F to get the bottom stone to 550F, then shut off the fan and set the temp to 475 for a 15-minute bake.

The first pic is of the just-balled dough in the pan, the second following the 5-hr rise.  The other two made me hungry for lunch, but I wanted to show the bottom crust in particular - you can see a little more browning than usual, probably because I started the pizzas on the hotter stone.  The lower hydration with the KASL made the dough easier to handle but it was still nice and soft on the interior with a crispy bottom and edge - got excellent scores from the happy family!

Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 15, 2012, 02:37:17 PM
Did anyone ever post whether the pans are covered or not here on the forum at Buddy’s and do you think it would make any differences?

Norma,

According to the former employee of Buddy's, "lufty", Buddy's cross stacked its pans, as noted in Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795. I do not recall that the top of the dough in the pan is coated with oil but some workers at Buddy's apparently oiled their fingers when they spread the dough in the pan, as noted at Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436. BTW, I have been editing Reply 126 recently so that, together with the many links referenced therein, it contains just about everything I know about the Buddy's dough and procedures.

The only company that I am aware of that covers its pans for its square style pizzas is Jet's.

I noted from the blog report you referenced at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436 that mention is made that Buddy's adds Parmesan cheese to its pizzas. I believe that that is for the Detroiter specialty pizza mentioned and shown in the report. That pizza has the pepperoni on top and is described on the Buddy's menu as follows: Cheese, pepperoni on top, tomato basil sauce, topped with shaved parmesan cheese and Buddy’s spice blend.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 15, 2012, 05:06:39 PM
Norma - in the first picture of the second post of Brown Dog pics, do you know what he's putting along the edge of the crust with the pastry blade?  Looks like butter to me.

Here are some pics from Tuesday's dinner.  I did a 24-hour room-temp (low 70s) rise and didn't want to over-proof, so I used 15g of sourdough starter (2%) for two 350g crusts, 70% hydration, KASL, with minimal kneading up front and two ballings (one after ~12 hours of bulk rise, the second about six hours later, just before panning), then let the dough rise in the pans for five hours before pressing and stretching, followed by about an hour proofing in a warm oven.  Used the convection-bake option set at 500F to get the bottom stone to 550F, then shut off the fan and set the temp to 475 for a 15-minute bake.

The first pic is of the just-balled dough in the pan, the second following the 5-hr rise.  The other two made me hungry for lunch, but I wanted to show the bottom crust in particular - you can see a little more browning than usual, probably because I started the pizzas on the hotter stone.  The lower hydration with the KASL made the dough easier to handle but it was still nice and soft on the interior with a crispy bottom and edge - got excellent scores from the happy family!



Skee,

In the first photo at Reply 332 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg223644.html#msg223644  this is what it says.
Applying the whipped New York ricotta and pressed garlic, so I don’t think it was butter that was applied, but don’t really know.  If you look at the some of these photos, it looks like the crust in the pan might have been par-baked, but I sure can’t make out if it was or not. 

In the first picture below, I am not sure if the crust is par-baked either and also am not sure what is applied as a dressing.

The second picture says this.  Me and Shawn Randazzo (owner of Cloverleaf Pizza in Detroit, MI)

In the third picture it says this.  Whole Milk Mozzarella

In the fourth pictures it says this.  Did the bottom bake?  Lol, that sounds like me.

In the fifth picture, I can’t be sure, but that dough in the pan might also be par-baked.

Wow, your sourdough starter Detroit-style pies look fantastic.  ;D I can see why you got excellent scores from your family.  How did you decide on using 350 grams for a Detroit style pizza?  Do you think you need a 5 hr. temper with the dough ball in the pan?  It that was has given you the best results?   The bottom of the crust looks nice and crispy.  What did you used as the oil?

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 15, 2012, 05:25:23 PM
Norma,

According to the former employee of Buddy's, "lufty", Buddy's cross stacked its pans, as noted in Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795. I do not recall that the top of the dough in the pan is coated with oil but some workers at Buddy's apparently oiled their fingers when they spread the dough in the pan, as noted at Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436. BTW, I have been editing Reply 126 recently so that, together with the many links referenced therein, it contains just about everything I know about the Buddy's dough and procedures.

The only company that I am aware of that covers its pans for its square style pizzas is Jet's.

I noted from the blog report you referenced at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436 that mention is made that Buddy's adds Parmesan cheese to its pizzas. I believe that that is for the Detroiter specialty pizza mentioned and shown in the report. That pizza has the pepperoni on top and is described on the Buddy's menu as follows: Cheese, pepperoni on top, tomato basil sauce, topped with shaved parmesan cheese and Buddy’s spice blend.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for the link where you quoted what lufty said about Buddy’s cross stacking its pans. I do recall that some workers at Buddy’s apparently oiled their finger when they spread the dough in the pan.  I guess that would help with the skin not drying out, if no lids are used.  It is still confusing to me if oiling (oiling with fingers dipped in oil), or not oiling the skins any would hurt the rise in the pans or not, but I guess it doesn’t really matter.

Thanks for updating Reply 126 at the Buddy’s thread.  I have a hard time remembering all that has gone on in the Buddy’s thread, but can go back and read Reply 126 to refresh my memory. 

Thanks for straightening out about why the Parmesan cheese was mentioned in the blog report.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 15, 2012, 05:28:47 PM
I just wanted to note that my new seasoned steel pizza pans really aren’t 10”x14” if they are measured with a metal measuring tape on the top edges.  I guess it doesn’t really matter.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Skee on November 15, 2012, 05:37:09 PM
Applying the whipped New York ricotta and pressed garlic, so I don’t think it was butter that was applied, but don’t really know....How did you decide on using 350 grams for a Detroit style pizza?  Do you think you need a 5 hr. temper with the dough ball in the pan?  It that was has given you the best results?   The bottom of the crust looks nice and crispy.  What did you used as the oil?
OK, ricotta and garlic makes sense after looking at the picture a little closer - you can see that it's spread all over the top, too.  

I'm sticking with 350g for now because it lets me judge the various hydrations and when it works as planned, the height of the crust seems to balance really well with the amount of sauce and cheese I'm using.  Again, I've never had a Buddy's, so can't compare, but I think mine is a little taller than what I've seen in pics and definitely taller than Via 313's and I think I'm lighter on the cheese, too.  

Probably could have gotten away with a little less time rising in the pan but that's how it worked on a weekday - I snuck home at lunch to do the balling and panning and then got home again around 6:00.  That was the first time I've had a dough that would actually ball for this style, usually go higher in hydration and it's too sticky.  

Went back to peanut oil in the pan with a little crisco in the corners again since I wasn't sure about the drier dough.  Pizzas slid out with no prying at all and likely could have skipped the Crisco.

The Detroit Style pans get better every time I use them, so if you're not going to do some pre-use oiling and baking I think you should use a little extra oil and the Crisco to make sure the first couple of pizzas don't stick.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Skee on November 15, 2012, 05:42:26 PM
I do recall that some workers at Buddy’s apparently oiled their finger when they spread the dough in the pan.  I guess that would help with the skin not drying out, if no lids are used.  It is still confusing to me if oiling (oiling with fingers dipped in oil), or not oiling the skins any would hurt the rise in the pans or not, but I guess it doesn’t really matter.
If you don't use any bench flour, or just minimal flour, oiling your fingers for stretching really helps with these higher-hydration doughs.  I use just enough to coat the fingers and keep them from sticking and this leaves a very thin layer on the dough with no impact to the rising.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 15, 2012, 05:51:49 PM

I'm sticking with 350g for now because it lets me judge the various hydrations and when it works as planned, the height of the crust seems to balance really well with the amount of sauce and cheese I'm using.  Again, I've never had a Buddy's, so can't compare, but I think mine is a little taller than what I've seen in pics and definitely taller than Via 313's and I think I'm lighter on the cheese, too.  

Probably could have gotten away with a little less time rising in the pan but that's how it worked on a weekday - I snuck home at lunch to do the balling and panning and then got home again around 6:00.  That was the first time I've had a dough that would actually ball for this style, usually go higher in hydration and it's too sticky.  


Skee,

Thanks for explaining why you like 350 grams of dough for your Detroit pies.  It makes sense in what you posted.  If I ever really make a Buddy’s clone at market, I am going to go down on the cheese amount too. 

Thanks also for explaining about you rise in the pan.  Good to hear you could get the dough to ball.  Your dough balls look nice. 

If you don't use any bench flour, or just minimal flour, oiling your fingers for stretching really helps with these higher-hydration doughs.  I use just enough to coat the fingers and keep them from sticking and this leaves a very thin layer on the dough with no impact to the rising.

Thanks for explaining about the oiling too!

Norma

Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 15, 2012, 06:15:53 PM
Thanks for the link where you quoted what lufty said about Buddy’s cross stacking its pans. I do recall that some workers at Buddy’s apparently oiled their finger when they spread the dough in the pan.  I guess that would help with the skin not drying out, if no lids are used.  It is still confusing to me if oiling (oiling with fingers dipped in oil), or not oiling the skins any would hurt the rise in the pans or not, but I guess it doesn’t really matter.

Norma,

If what was reported in Reply 126 is correct, Buddy's pizza dough at the time lufty worked for Buddy's was a 1-2 hour dough that was made several times a day, with the earliest dough being used for lunch service. Assuming that the dough was a high hydration dough, it is possible that a "skin" might have formed on the surface of the dough but it may have been a minor and inconsequential one, just as I have observed with high hydration preferments (like a poolish or sponge). The "skin" might also have largely disappeared once the blob of dough was spread into the pan. I personally wouldn't want a lot of oil on the surface of the dough as it is formed in the pan because I wouldn't want the cheese to slide off of the oil on the finished pizza. The oil also wouldn't be needed to keep the sauce from migrating into the dough because it is added on top of the cheese. I think a simple experimental emergency dough formulation along the lines that Buddy's was said to use would answer all of your questions.

In the case of Jet's, which uses covers for their pans, I understand that some (but not all) Jet's franchisees hold unused dough (a dough made similarly to Buddy's) over to the next day, in their coolers. However, the Jet's dough has a considerably lower hydration value that perhaps is amenable to a drier "skin" being formed on the surface of the dough.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 15, 2012, 06:23:49 PM
I just wanted to note that my new seasoned steel pizza pans really aren’t 10”x14” if they are measured with a metal measuring tape on the top edges.  I guess it doesn’t really matter.

Norma,

What were the dimensions of the pan? The 10" x 14" pans that were originally available from Northern Pizza Supply (and I believe P.A. Products) were a true 10" x 14" across the top. The dimensions do matter since the amount of dough has to conform to the pan size. That shouldn't be a problem once we are able to determine the thickness factor, since that value can be used in the expanded dough calculating tool for any size pan, rectangular or round.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 15, 2012, 08:21:45 PM
Norma,

If what was reported in Reply 126 is correct, Buddy's pizza dough at the time lufty worked for Buddy's was a 1-2 hour dough that was made several times a day, with the earliest dough being used for lunch service. Assuming that the dough was a high hydration dough, it is possible that a "skin" might have formed on the surface of the dough but it may have been a minor and inconsequential one, just as I have observed with high hydration preferments (like a poolish or sponge). The "skin" might also have largely disappeared once the blob of dough was spread into the pan. I personally wouldn't want a lot of oil on the surface of the dough as it is formed in the pan because I wouldn't want the cheese to slide off of the oil on the finished pizza. The oil also wouldn't be needed to keep the sauce from migrating into the dough because it is added on top of the cheese. I think a simple experimental emergency dough formulation along the lines that Buddy's was said to use would answer all of your questions.

In the case of Jet's, which uses covers for their pans, I understand that some (but not all) Jet's franchisees hold unused dough (a dough made similarly to Buddy's) over to the next day, in their coolers. However, the Jet's dough has a considerably lower hydration value that perhaps is amenable to a drier "skin" being formed on the surface of the dough.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for explaining about how a skin could have formed on the surface of the dough.  I thought Buddy’s did make dough balls and didn’t just place a blob of dough into the pans to ferment and then press them out.  I could be wrong on that though.  I think I was thinking along the lines of the dough forming a skin when the dough sits in the cross stacked pans, while the dough is fermenting.  I think I did see where Via 313 might place blobs of dough in their pans though. 

I can understand about not wanting a lot of oil on the surface of the dough, because of the cheese falling off and more oil on the pizza. 

What kind of simple experimental emergency dough do you have in mind for me to try in the timeline of what lufty reported?  Do you want me try it at home, or at market?  I would like my questions answered, so am willing to do whatever you want me to do.

I know I tried some Jet’s formulations and do know what I tried was lower in hydration than a Buddy’s clone.  I like the Buddy’ clone pizzas better.  I would think it Jet’s wouldn’t cover their pans, there might be problems with dryness of the skin.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 15, 2012, 08:23:47 PM
Norma,

What were the dimensions of the pan? The 10" x 14" pans that were originally available from Northern Pizza Supply (and I believe P.A. Products) were a true 10" x 14" across the top. The dimensions do matter since the amount of dough has to conform to the pan size. That shouldn't be a problem once we are able to determine the thickness factor, since that value can be used in the expanded dough calculating tool for any size pan, rectangular or round.

Peter

Peter,

These are pictures of what my 10”x14” pans look like from Detroit Style Pizza Co.  It can be seen by the measurements with my metal measuring tape, the 14” measurement isn’t off by much, but the 10” measurement is off a little more.  My one pan I received today doesn’t have as much seasoning (one picture) on the one spot, but the other two steel pans look fine as far seasoning.

I can understand if the dimensions are not really true, it won’t really matter once you are able to determine the TF for a Buddy’s clone.  I know the expanded dough calculating tool can be used for any size pan.

I just talked to Trenton Bill and he said he received his pans yesterday from the Detroit Style Pizza Co. and his one pan was dented and both pans weren’t seasoned right.  He threw the one pan away.  :o I told him he could have used something like a grill, or something else to burn off the rest of the seasoning off and start over.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 15, 2012, 09:16:36 PM
Norma,

Thanks for explaining about how a skin could have formed on the surface of the dough.  I thought Buddy’s did make dough balls and didn’t just place a blob of dough into the pans to ferment and then press them out.  I could be wrong on that though.  I think I was thinking along the lines of the dough forming a skin when the dough sits in the cross stacked pans, while the dough is fermenting.
You can read how former employee lufty at Buddy's described how he formed the dough for the Buddy's square pizzas in the italicized part of Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795 . 
 
What kind of simple experimental emergency dough do you have in mind for me to try in the timeline of what lufty reported?  Do you want me try it at home, or at market?  I would like my questions answered, so am willing to do whatever you want me to do.
Since the sole purpose of the experiment is to see if a Buddy's emergency clone dough develops a "skin" on its surface during its brief fermentation period (1-2 hours), it does not matter whether you conduct the experiment at home or at market. However, if you are to use a 1-2 hour room temperature fermentation period as a target, you may want to use 0.80% IDY and water warm enough to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 90 degrees F. The actual fermentation time will be influenced by the room temperature where the dough is to be fermented.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 15, 2012, 09:28:10 PM
These are pictures of what my 10”x14” pans look like from Detroit Style Pizza Co.  It can be seen by the measurements with my metal measuring tape, the 14” measurement isn’t off by much, but the 10” measurement is off a little more.  My one pan I received today doesn’t have as much seasoning (one picture) on the one spot, but the other two steel pans look fine as far seasoning.
Norma,

According to the Detroit Style Pizza Co. website at http://detroitstylepizza.co/detroit-style-pizza-pans/, the large pan is given as 10" x 14". From the photos you provided, I would say that any variances look to be slight and, in my opinion, should not affect the results you get using your Buddy's clone doughs. Remember, also, that Buddy's pizzas will vary in weight from one pizza to another, both unbaked and baked, because the cheese is measured out volumetrically (see http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Mf788bNv6xv/340x.jpg) and the amount of sauce is largely a guess. Variations for the pepperoni slices should be fairly minor from one pizza to another so long as the correct number of slices are used.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 15, 2012, 10:06:33 PM
Norma,
You can read how former employee lufty at Buddy's described how he formed the dough for the Buddy's square pizzas in the italicized part of Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795 . 
 Since the sole purpose of the experiment is to see if a Buddy's emergency clone dough develops a "skin" on its surface during its brief fermentation period (1-2 hours), it does not matter whether you conduct the experiment at home or at market. However, if you are to use a 1-2 hour room temperature fermentation period as a target, you may want to use 0.80% IDY and water warm enough to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 90 degrees F. The actual fermentation time will be influenced by the room temperature where the dough is to be fermented.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the link again about what lufty said about how he formed the dough for Buddy’s square pan.   

I see lufty said:  The balls are weighed and placed in the pans loosely stretched and stacked up criss-cross to rise. A few hours later they are stretched out properly, using your thumb to press the corners into the pan a midway up the edge.

I will perform the experiment on Saturday to see if a Buddy’s emergency clone dough develops a skin on the surface in the 1-2 hr. fermentation period.  I already have a print out of the emergency Buddy’s formulation from the expanded dough calculation tool with 0.80% IDY.  I will strive for a finished dough temperature of around 90 degrees F.  I know the actual fermentation time will be influenced by the room temperature of where the dough is to be fermented.  My kitchen is quite cool at this time of the year, so I might use my little disc heater that I usually keep in the bathroom to help make my kitchen warmer.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 15, 2012, 10:14:54 PM
Norma,

According to the Detroit Style Pizza Co. website at http://detroitstylepizza.co/detroit-style-pizza-pans/, the large pan is given as 10" x 14". From the photos you provided, I would say that any variances look to be slight and, in my opinion, should not affect the results you get using your Buddy's clone doughs. Remember, also, that Buddy's pizzas will vary in weight from one pizza to another, both unbaked and baked, because the cheese is measured out volumetrically (see http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Mf788bNv6xv/340x.jpg) and the amount of sauce is largely a guess. Variations for the pepperoni slices should be fairly minor from one pizza to another so long as the correct number of slices are used.

Peter

Peter,

I agree that my steel pans measurements are slight, but I just wanted to note that they weren’t exactly 10”x14”. 

I forgot about Buddy’s weighing their cheese out volumetrically and that also affecting the weight of the final pizzas.  I do know that the sauce is largely a guess.

I can understand now the variances in my steel pans really won’t make any difference. 

Norma 
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 15, 2012, 11:42:57 PM
I got (5) 8x10 pans from them last week, and they all looked basically OK. I went ahead and put another coat of seasoning on them anyway.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 16, 2012, 07:40:19 AM
I got (5) 8x10 pans from them last week, and they all looked basically OK. I went ahead and put another coat of seasoning on them anyway.

Craig,

Great to hear you got 5 (8”x10”) steel pan from Detroit Style Pizza Co.  Sounds like you are gearing up to make a lot of Detroit style pizzas.  ;D I remember in NY when you told Steve and me your love was only for Neapolitan pies.  Glad you found another style of pie that you also like.   8)

How did you put on another coat of seasoning?  You can see my 8”x10” steel pans aren’t seasoned right.
They do work okay now and the pies slip right out most of the time, but at first the Jet’s pizzas I tried wanted to stick.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 16, 2012, 09:23:57 AM
Craig,

Great to hear you got 5 (8”x10”) steel pan from Detroit Style Pizza Co.  Sounds like you are gearing up to make a lot of Detroit style pizzas.  ;D I remember in NY when you told Steve and me your love was only for Neapolitan pies.  Glad you found another style of pie that you also like.   8)

How did you put on another coat of seasoning?  You can see my 8”x10” steel pans aren’t seasoned right.
They do work okay now and the pies slip right out most of the time, but at first the Jet’s pizzas I tried wanted to stick.

Norma

NP is still my only true love. Detroit is more of a flirty affair.  8) I figured I'd need 5 if we ever invited any people over to try it as the number of pans dictates how many pies you can make in an evening. I went with 8x10 so there would be a higher edge crust/middle ratio (.45" of edge crust per in2 of pie vs .34" for 10x14).

To season the pans, I wiped the insides down with a thin coat of Crisco (MFB would be fine) and put them in a 500F oven for an hour and a half or so - until they stopped smoking. A couple thin coats (baked on between) are better than a single thick coat.

The more you use them the more non-stick they will get. No water ever for washing.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 16, 2012, 09:48:49 AM
NP is still my only true love. Detroit is more of a flirty affair.  8) I figured I'd need 5 if we ever invited any people over to try it as the number of pans dictates how many pies you can make in an evening. I went with 8x10 so there would be a higher edge crust/middle ratio (.45" of edge crust per in2 of pie vs .34" for 10x14).

To season the pans, I wiped the insides down with a thin coat of Crisco (MFB would be fine) and put them in a 500F oven for an hour and a half or so - until they stopped smoking. A couple thin coats (baked on between) are better than a single thick coat.

The more you use them the more non-stick they will get. No water ever for washing.

Craig,

I had thought NP was still your true love.  I find it amusing that the Detroit-style is more of a flirty affair for you.  I understand now why you purchased 5 steel pans.  I don’t understand how you did those calculations, but how much dough in grams do you use for a 8”x10” square pan?

Thanks for explaining to me how you seasoned your steel pans.  I will season my new steel pans some more before I try them.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 16, 2012, 11:08:57 AM
I don’t understand how you did those calculations, but how much dough in grams do you use for a 8”x10” square pan?

I used 325g for an 8x10 last time, but I think that is a little too much. I'll try 300g next.

The other calculations were to show that you get proportionally more of the crispy cheese edge crust (my favorite part) on an 8x10 pies than on a 10x14.

An 8x10 pie has 80in2 or pizza (8x10) and a 36" parameter (8+8+10+10). Therefore, you have .45" of edge crust for every square inch of pizza (36/80). A 10x14 pie has 140in2 of pizza and a 48" parameter so you only get 0.34" of edge crust per square inch of pie (48/140).

If you like the crispy edge, 8x10 is the way to go.

Craig
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 16, 2012, 12:41:00 PM
I used 325g for an 8x10 last time, but I think that is a little too much. I'll try 300g next.

The other calculations were to show that you get proportionally more of the crispy cheese edge crust (my favorite part) on an 8x10 pies than on a 10x14.

An 8x10 pie has 80in2 or pizza (8x10) and a 36" parameter (8+8+10+10). Therefore, you have .45" of edge crust for every square inch of pizza (36/80). A 10x14 pie has 140in2 of pizza and a 48" parameter so you only get 0.34" of edge crust per square inch of pie (48/140).

If you like the crispy edge, 8x10 is the way to go.

Craig


Craig,

Thanks for posting how much dough you used in grams and how much dough in grams you plan to use the next time.

It is interesting you could calculate to show how much extra crispy edge crust you can get with using a 8”x10” steel pan. 

I can see by your explaining that there is more extra crispy edge with using the smaller pan, but sure don’t understand the calculations.  You sure have a good brain and a knack for doing anything well.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 16, 2012, 12:49:34 PM
If anyone might be interested, I contacted Great Lakes Cheese to see if there are any distributors in my area for their brick cheese.  I told them I was located in SE Pa.  I also received a xls. about the Great Lakes brick cheese, but can’t open that document.  I sent another email to see if Great Lakes does have distributors for their brick cheese in my area.

This is what the email said.

Hello Norma,

Great Lakes Cheese does produce the Brick cheese, and can be purchased by a number of distributors in western Pennsylvania:

0000010173   CLOVERHILL FOOD PRODUCTS   110057   BRICK 2/6 LB GLC
0000015039   MCANENY BROTHERS   110057   BRICK 2/6 LB GLC
0000010098   BLACKBURN & RUSSELL   110057   BRICK 2/6 LB GLC
0000014138   REINHART PITTSBURGH   110057   BRICK 2/6 LB GLC

Please confirm which one you buy from, as they each currently carry this item form us.

They would then quote you.

Item information is below, along with my contact information.

Item #   SAP#   Product Description   Pack/Size   Quote/   Ti/Hi   Pallet
24210   110057   Brick Loaf   2/6   BLK +   20/5   100

Thank you,

Tim Holden

Tim Holden sent me a follow-up email when I explained again what region of Pa. I was from.  I had asked for a pdf. document about the Great Lakes brick cheese, since I can’t open the xls., but didn’t get a pdf. document.

Norma,
The 2 distributors that currently purchase this item are:
0000010633   SCHIFF'S FDSRV   110057   BRICK 2/6 LB GLC
0000010754   US FD 2J ALLENTOWN   110057   BRICK 2/6 LB GLC

Craig: please confirm where Schiffs is located for Norma.
Item #   SAP#   Product Description   Pack/Size   Quote/   Ti/Hi   Pallet
24210   110057   Brick Loaf   2/6   BLK +   20/5   100

Thank you,
Tim Holden

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 16, 2012, 06:43:34 PM
Craig, that is a cheese broker for Great Lakes, (both retail and foodservice) called me today and said that Schiffs is located in Scranton, Pa.  Craig was trying to find me a supplier that does carry the Great Lakes brick cheese and will call me back next week, but it doesn’t look like any distributors near me carry the Great Lakes brick cheese.  Feesers (in Harrisburg, Pa.) and Sysco Foods (also in Harrisburg, Pa.) do carry Great Lake cheeses, but not the brick cheese.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 16, 2012, 06:46:23 PM
I purchased a 25 lb. bag of bromated Occident flour at my supplier today.  I also brought the CARANDO pepperoni home from market (CARANDO was the pepperoni I had wanted to slice on Tuesday and use on a Buddy‘s clone, but didn‘t have time to slice it).  The CARANDO pepperoni does taste very similar to the Vermont Smoked pepperoni.  This was the same pepperoni I put under the cheese when I baked two of the Buddy’s clones in my moms gas oven. 

What I would like to know is if I should slice the pepperoni and use it on the emergency Buddy’s clone pizza tomorrow?  I don’t know how helpful the final bake weight would be if I baked the Buddy’s clone in my home oven though.  I do plan to use my pizza stone.  I do also plan on using all brick cheese. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 16, 2012, 07:37:27 PM
What I would like to know is if I should slice the pepperoni and use it on the emergency Buddy’s clone pizza tomorrow?  I don’t know how helpful the final bake weight would be if I baked the Buddy’s clone in my home oven though.  I do plan to use my pizza stone.  I do also plan on using all brick cheese.  

Norma,

I don't see any problem with using the Carando pepperoni. It might be difficult to slice 1.25 ounces of that product into 20 slices so I would do the best you can under the circumstances, even if the final count isn't 20 slices. Just distribute the slices across the pizza as evenly as you can.

At this point, I will take whatever weights you end up with. In addition to seeing if a "skin" develops on the dough in the pan as the dough ferments, I'd like to get the unbaked and baked weights to see what the losses are. Also, the closer you can come to the Buddy's bake temperature and time, the better. If you can, I would also like to have the weight of the sauce. You might even use the photo at http://slice.seriouseats.com/images/20110227-138848-United-States-of-Pizza-Michigan-Buddys.jpg as a rough guide on the amount of sauce to use.

I look forward to your results ;D.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 16, 2012, 09:27:10 PM
Norma,

I don't see any problem with using the Carando pepperoni. It might be difficult to slice 1.25 ounces of that product into 20 slices so I would do the best you can under the circumstances, even if the final count isn't 20 slices. Just distribute the slices across the pizza as evenly as you can.

At this point, I will take whatever weights you end up with. In addition to seeing if a "skin" develops on the dough in the pan as the dough ferments, I'd like to get the unbaked and baked weights to see what the losses are. Also, the closer you can come to the Buddy's bake temperature and time, the better. If you can, I would also like to have the weight of the sauce. You might even use the photo at http://slice.seriouseats.com/images/20110227-138848-United-States-of-Pizza-Michigan-Buddys.jpg as a rough guide on the amount of sauce to use.

Peter



Peter,

I know if might be difficult to slice 1.25 ounces of the Carando pepperoni into 20 slices, but will do the best I can.  I will weigh the dough, sauce, brick cheese, and pepperoni slices.  I will also time the bake and take the weight of the final baked pizza.  I might do better in my moms gas oven, but will have to see if she will let me bake the Buddy’s clone there.  Thanks for the link and picture on Slice to use as a rough guide, but I have no idea of how much sauce that is.  The sauce does look thicker though, at least to my eyes.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 16, 2012, 09:48:14 PM
Norma,
Maybe if you take a 3-4 in. long piece of that pepperoni that has been frozen you will more easily be able to slice off in your slicer the 1.25 oz. portion you need. Just trying to help.
I know your mom said those last M &M pizza's you made in her gas oven were now all that would be allowed to be baked at her house(they were beauties indeed) but I'll bet you know how to talk her into allowing your new/latest experiment to be tried out in her"mom you have such a good oven"   8)
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 16, 2012, 10:09:55 PM
Norma,
Maybe if you take a 3-4 in. long piece of that pepperoni that has been frozen you will more easily be able to slice off in your slicer the 1.25 oz. portion you need. Just trying to help.
I know your mom said those last M &M pizza's you made in her gas oven were now all that would be allowed to be baked at her house(they were beauties indeed) but I'll bet you know how to talk her into allowing your new/latest experiment to be tried out in her"mom you have such a good oven"   8)

Bob,

The pepperoni hasn’t ever been frozen and really I don’t plan on trying to freeze it, but your idea is good that it might slice better frozen.  I have a electric slicer in my shed, but it isn’t the best and I hate to clean it.  I know you are trying to help and I do appreciate that.

I did make the Buddy’s clone in her gas oven last week, but she is fussy if I get anything on her counters or table.  She is always trying to clean up after me even before I even put the pizza in the oven.  I always clean my own messes up though.  She does really like the Buddy’s clones so I might try her gas oven.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 16, 2012, 10:32:04 PM
Bob,

The pepperoni hasn’t ever been frozen and really I don’t plan on trying to freeze it, but your idea is good that it might slice better frozen.  I have a electric slicer in my shed, but it isn’t the best and I hate to clean it.  I know you are trying to help and I do appreciate that.

I did make the Buddy’s clone in her gas oven last week, but she is fussy if I get anything on her counters or table.  She is always trying to clean up after me even before I even put the pizza in the oven.  I always clean my own messes up though.  She does really like the Buddy’s clones so I might try her gas oven.

Norma
Ha!   I hear that Norma!!  I cook most of the meals here....I'll set a stirring spoon or spatula down....go check on the score in the TV room and when I return to my cooking pots I'm like..where's my spoons?!   ;D  Norma...this happens prolly 3 or 4 times during the course of preparing just a 1-2 hr. meal. Neat freaks can get a 'lil freaky on your nerves boy....sheeeesh!  :-D
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 17, 2012, 10:05:33 AM
I tried the best I could to slice the pepperoni using different knifes.  The pepperoni slices look like a mangled up mess, but there are 20 slices and the pepperoni slices do weigh 1.25 ounces.  I used my regular scale and my small scale to weigh the pepperoni slices.  I could get nice slices of pepperoni if I cut bigger slices, but when trying to cut smaller slices it wasn’t meant to be.  I also took a quarter to show how much bigger in diameter the pepperoni is than a quarter.  I also took my paper measuring tape and measured the pepperoni in cm, but that isn’t mm.  I also grated 8 ounces of the brick cheese. 

I am going to soon start the Buddy’s clone dough because I want to get finished with this experiment fairly early, because I have leaves to rake.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 17, 2012, 11:11:00 AM
The Buddy’s clone dough ball was finished mixing at 10:50 AM.  The final dough temperature was 90.4 degrees F.  I had to heat my warm tap water up in the microwave to get that final dough temperature, because my tap water doesn’t really get that high in temperature.  The dough was mixed only with the flat beater on my Kitchen Aid mixer, because there isn’t enough dough to use the dough hook.  I used my spatula to mix the dough a little more, until I thought it could be balled, but it really didn’t take long to mix.  The dough balled easily.  The dough ball wasn’t oiled at all so I can see if the skin will become dry while sitting at room temperature.  The ambient room temperature in my kitchen is still 71 degrees F.  I am not going to do anything to make my ambient room temperature higher.  The 8”x10” steel pan was oiled with Canola oil.  In a few minutes I wanted to see if the dough ball would press out at all.  It did, but now I am letting it go for a little.  The final dough weight was 274 grams.  I am not sure why it is less than was I was using before (277 grams), but there was some dough on my spoon, spatula, mixing bowl and on the flat beater.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 17, 2012, 02:17:56 PM
At 11:17 AM the dough was pressed a little more in the steel pan and at 11:40 PM the dough in the steel pan was pressed the whole way and then was left to temper on the counter beside the oven I had just turned on at that time.  The dough was very easy to press out. 

I checked on the dough tempering in the steel pan at 12:50 PM and it looked like it was ready to bake.  I had thought maybe a crust will form on the skin in the steel pan, (because I know other dough balls left out without a cover do develop a crust).  I hadn’t checked on the skin in the steel pan since it was stretched the whole way since I had been outside.  The skin did develop a light crust on the skin, but did still ferment.  I don’t know how good the picture I took outside shows the crust on the skin, but it was soft underneath the crust.

The pizza was then dressed and put into the oven.  My baking stone was on the second to last bottom rack and the temperature of my baking stone was 500 degrees F.  The bake time was 12 minutes 11 seconds.  The final bake weight of the pizza was 1 lb. 5.7 ounces or 614 grams.  In the one picture the bake final weight just fell a little.     

I used 4.7 ounces of my regular market sauce on this pizza.  I also tore the 1.25 ounces of pepperoni up more, so it would be more evenly distributed over the whole skin.  I wasn’t satisfied how I sliced the pepperoni.

I have to also thank lufty now, because he also did a great job in explaining what Buddy’s does.  I really don’t know, but think the small delicate crust that forms on the skin does help so when the ingredients are added the skin doesn’t get weighted down from the weight of the ingredients.  The crumb also stays moist in the bake.  At least that is what I think now.   

If this is anywhere near the way Buddy’s makes their dough, tempers the dough in the steel pan, then does the final bake so fast after mixing the dough I think they really came up with a great pizza for such a short time dough.  Right now I think Buddy’s is very clever.  This experiment made a lickety-split pizza.

The Buddy’s clone pizza was very good in my opinion. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 17, 2012, 02:18:49 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 17, 2012, 02:20:00 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 17, 2012, 02:21:40 PM
The only reason I took a picture of the steel pan after the pizza was removed in the second picture was to show that there is still oil in the pan after the bake.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 17, 2012, 02:23:10 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 17, 2012, 02:24:29 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 17, 2012, 02:28:07 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 17, 2012, 02:39:41 PM
Wow!  Tasty, tasty looking pizza right there. I'll bet that pie is real good cold too...beautiful Norma, thanks!  :chef:
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 17, 2012, 03:06:38 PM
Norma,

Thank you for posting your results. The pizza does look very tasty, especially when one considers how quickly the pizza was created.

Sometime this weekend I want to check all of the weight losses for your Buddy's cheese and pepperoni clone pizzas to see if there is consistency of the data. One way or the other, I'd like to see if I can take the slice weight data that dicepackage gave us and work backwards to a dough ball weight. I already know that this will not be an accurate analysis because the cheese and sauce are measured out and dispensed volumetrically and that can easily swing the numbers an ounce or so either direction. Since the pepperoni slices were under the cheese, I will assume that they retained their original weight even though the slices may have released fat during baking.

I assume that you used 8 ounces of the brick cheese. If so, the unbaked weight of the pizza was 9.67 ounces (dough) + 8 ounces (brick cheese) + 4.7 ounces (sauce) + 1.25 ounces (pepperoni slices) = 23.62 ounces. Based on a baked weight of 21.7 ounces, the weight loss was 1.92 ounces, or 8.13%.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 17, 2012, 03:52:02 PM
Wow!  Tasty, tasty looking pizza right there. I'll bet that pie is real good cold too...beautiful Norma, thanks!  :chef:

Bob,

Thanks!  :)  I don't know how a slice of this kind of pizza tastes cold.  I always ate any slices that were leftover reheated.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 17, 2012, 04:09:07 PM
Norma,

Thank you for posting your results. The pizza does look very tasty, especially when one considers how quickly the pizza was created.

Sometime this weekend I want to check all of the weight losses for your Buddy's cheese and pepperoni clone pizzas to see if there is consistency of the data. One way or the other, I'd like to see if I can take the slice weight data that dicepackage gave us and work backwards to a dough ball weight. I already know that this will not be an accurate analysis because the cheese and sauce are measured out and dispensed volumetrically and that can easily swing the numbers an ounce or so either direction. Since the pepperoni slices were under the cheese, I will assume that they retained their original weight even though the slices may have released fat during baking.

I assume that you used 8 ounces of the brick cheese. If so, the unbaked weight of the pizza was 9.67 ounces (dough) + 8 ounces (brick cheese) + 4.7 ounces (sauce) + 1.25 ounces (pepperoni slices) = 23.62 ounces. Based on a baked weight of 21.7 ounces, the weight loss was 1.92 ounces, or 8.13%.

Peter


Peter,

The pizza crust was tasty even with how quickly the pizza was created.  I saw that before when I also used 0.80% IDY, but that time the dough was left out at room temperature longer.  I guess the higher dough temperature had something to do with how fast the dough fermented.  Maybe the crusty edges and cheese also make this style of pizza taste better and hide somewhat how the crust tastes.  

I really don’t think there will be much of any consistency of all the weight losses for my Buddy’s cheese and pepperoni clone pizzas.  They were made differently in amounts of time, different ovens and other different variables.  I hope you have some luck with the slice weight data that dicepackage gave us and can work backwards to a dough ball weight.  I know Buddy’s sauce and cheese are all dispensed volumetrically, so that is another problem.  

I found it strange, but the pepperoni couldn’t even be tasted much.  I didn’t see any fat, or greasiness in the crumb.  Do you think the crust on skin prevented any seepage of fat into the crumb?  I wouldn’t think that is possible, but just wondered what you thought.

I did use 8 ounces of the Eddie’s brick cheese on this Buddy’s clone.  When I see you post those baked weight loss numbers it always amazes me how different they are.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 17, 2012, 06:35:02 PM
I found it strange, but the pepperoni couldn’t even be tasted much.  I didn’t see any fat, or greasiness in the crumb.  Do you think the crust on skin prevented any seepage of fat into the crumb?  I wouldn’t think that is possible, but just wondered what you thought.

Norma,

I would say that a thin, dry "skin" on the surface of the Buddy's clone dough that was spread in the pan could help prevent or at least minimize seepage of the fat rendered out of the pepperoni during baking into the dough. It could also be that the Carando pepperoni does not lose much fat to its surroundings during baking. As you know, some brands of pepperoni lose more fat during baking than other brands.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 17, 2012, 08:07:38 PM
Norma,

I spent a good part of the afternoon combing through this thread to find all of the reports you prepared on all of your Buddy's clone pizzas. You are correct. The results were all over the place. I was especially looking for the results of your Buddy's clone cheese and pepperoni pizzas since it was slices of Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizzas that dicepackage purchased and described at Reply 127 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81715.html#msg81715. I identified three such pizzas that you made. Two were baked in your mother's home gas oven but you did not weigh one of those pizzas so I had no usable data for that pizza. The third Buddy's clone cheese and pepperoni pizza was the most recent one that you baked in your home electric oven on a stone, as you described starting with Reply 366 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg224063.html#msg224063. Actually, I thought that your last Buddy's clone pizza was perhaps the best clone to examine because it was a cheese and pepperoni pizza, it used only brick cheese, and it was baked at a temperature and for a time that was similar to what Buddy's is using based on all of our research to date.

After weighing and balancing everything, I decided to ignore the results that you got using your mother's gas oven and the results of your last three-batch Buddy's clone pizzas that had so many variations and where you didn't weigh two of the three pizzas (see posts starting at Reply 275 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg223013.html#msg223013). That left the results that you got with your Buddy's cheese clone pizzas that you baked in your home oven, with and without a stone, and the three-batch Buddy's clone cheese pizzas that you baked at market and described starting at Reply 175 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg222024.html#msg222024.

When the dust settled, I concluded that the numbers suggested a typical weight loss value of around 8%.

I then returned to dicepackage's numbers as he set them out at Reply 127 referenced above. I recall when I first saw those numbers and how they stopped me dead in my tracks. After doing some quick analysis, it seemed to me that the amount of dough for a Buddy's 4-square pizza based on dicepackage's numbers was too low. That is the reason why I did not comment on his results. Even now, I have some reservations about dicepackage's data. For example, dicepackage purchased three cheese and pepperoni slices from Buddy's. He did not purchase a whole 4-square cheese and pepperoni pizza. I might add at this point that it is true that Buddy's sells slices of its cheese and pepperoni pizzas (there are two slice options listed on Buddy's menus), but it is not clear whether the slices are reheated. If so, that could cause the weight of a fresh slice to drop even further. Also, you will note that the photo of one of the slices that dicepackage purchased does not show much sauce.

After doing some number crunching based on the information that dicepackage provided, and assuming 8 ounces of brick cheese, 1.25 ounces of pepperoni slices, and 4 ounces of sauce, I concluded that the numbers suggested a dough ball weight of around 9 ounces for a Buddy's 4-square pizza. That would compare with the 9.77 ounces that you have been largely using and corresponds to a thickness factor of 0.112364. That value compares with a thickness factor value of 0.12213 for your 277-gram (9.77 ounces) Buddy's clone dough balls and the 0.1218 thickness factor that PizzaHog used. As you might imagine, a heavy or light hand on the cheese and/or sauce can swing the numbers in such a way as to make it difficult to accurately calculate the amount of dough that Buddy's uses to make its square pizzas.

I can't say that I have a great deal of confidence in the 9-ounce dough ball weight, for the reasons discussed above. A better example to work from would be a fresh Buddy's cheese and pepperoni 4-square pizza that is weighed as soon as possible after coming out of the oven. However, until such time as we are provided with better data, it may be worth making a Buddy's cheese and pepperoni 4-square pizza using 9 ounces of dough if only to see if that number is even workable. I believe the best venue for such a pizza would be your oven at market. I would use the same dough formulation and methods as were last used but with a 9-ounce dough ball.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 17, 2012, 09:46:35 PM
Norma,

I would say that a thin, dry "skin" on the surface of the Buddy's clone dough that was spread in the pan could help prevent or at least minimize seepage of the fat rendered out of the pepperoni during baking into the dough. It could also be that the Carando pepperoni does not lose much fat to its surroundings during baking. As you know, some brands of pepperoni lose more fat during baking than other brands.

Peter

Peter,

I didn’t think of it at the time when I ate two slices of the Buddy’s clone cheese and pepperoni pizza today, but I now recall that the Carando pepperoni doesn’t really oil off too much when making a pizza.  I now recall using the Carando pepperoni at Steve’s in his WFO.  The Carando pepperoni tastes almost like Vermont smoked pepperoni, cups like it does and gets crispy if it is used on the top of a pizza.  I also think I used the Carando pepperoni in a baked in my moms gas oven, when I didn’t go to Steve’s home before because I though it might rain.  I just asked my daughter, who also ate a slice of the Buddy’s clone today, if she noticed any pepperoni taste in that slice and she also said she didn’t really taste pepperoni.  That is kind of weird because usually the Carando pepperoni is good in my opinion and does stand out.

Thanks for telling me maybe the thin, dry “skin” on the surface of the Buddy’s clone doughs might have helped, or minimize the seepage of any fat into the baking dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 17, 2012, 10:34:21 PM
Norma,

I spent a good part of the afternoon combing through this thread to find all of the reports you prepared on all of your Buddy's clone pizzas. You are correct. The results were all over the place. I was especially looking for the results of your Buddy's clone cheese and pepperoni pizzas since it was slices of Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizzas that dicepackage purchased and described at Reply 127 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81715.html#msg81715. I identified three such pizzas that you made. Two were baked in your mother's home gas oven but you did not weigh one of those pizzas so I had no usable data for that pizza. The third Buddy's clone cheese and pepperoni pizza was the most recent one that you baked in your home electric oven on a stone, as you described starting with Reply 366 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg224063.html#msg224063. Actually, I thought that your last Buddy's clone pizza was perhaps the best clone to examine because it was a cheese and pepperoni pizza, it used only brick cheese, and it was baked at a temperature and for a time that was similar to what Buddy's is using based on all of our research to date.

After weighing and balancing everything, I decided to ignore the results that you got using your mother's gas oven and the results of your last three-batch Buddy's clone pizzas that had so many variations and where you didn't weigh two of the three pizzas (see posts starting at Reply 275 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg223013.html#msg223013). That left the results that you got with your Buddy's cheese clone pizzas that you baked in your home oven, with and without a stone, and the three-batch Buddy's clone cheese pizzas that you baked at market and described starting at Reply 175 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg222024.html#msg222024.

When the dust settled, I concluded that the numbers suggested a typical weight loss value of around 8%.

I then returned to dicepackage's numbers as he set them out at Reply 127 referenced above. I recall when I first saw those numbers and how they stopped me dead in my tracks. After doing some quick analysis, it seemed to me that the amount of dough for a Buddy's 4-square pizza based on dicepackage's numbers was too low. That is the reason why I did not comment on his results. Even now, I have some reservations about dicepackage's data. For example, dicepackage purchased three cheese and pepperoni slices from Buddy's. He did not purchase a whole 4-square cheese and pepperoni pizza. I might add at this point that it is true that Buddy's sells slices of its cheese and pepperoni pizzas (there are two slice options listed on Buddy's menus), but it is not clear whether the slices are reheated. If so, that could cause the weight of a fresh slice to drop even further. Also, you will note that the photo of one of the slices that dicepackage purchased does not show much sauce.

After doing some number crunching based on the information that dicepackage provided, and assuming 8 ounces of brick cheese, 1.25 ounces of pepperoni slices, and 4 ounces of sauce, I concluded that the numbers suggested a dough ball weight of around 9 ounces for a Buddy's 4-square pizza. That would compare with the 9.77 ounces that you have been largely using and corresponds to a thickness factor of 0.112364. That value compares with a thickness factor value of 0.12213 for your 277-gram (9.77 ounces) Buddy's clone dough balls and the 0.1218 thickness factor that PizzaHog used. As you might imagine, a heavy or light hand on the cheese and/or sauce can swing the numbers in such a way as to make it difficult to accurately calculate the amount of dough that Buddy's uses to make its square pizzas.

I can't say that I have a great deal of confidence in the 9-ounce dough ball weight, for the reasons discussed above. A better example to work from would be a fresh Buddy's cheese and pepperoni 4-square pizza that is weighed as soon as possible after coming out of the oven. However, until such time as we are provided with better data, it may be worth making a Buddy's cheese and pepperoni 4-square pizza using 9 ounces of dough if only to see if that number is even workable. I believe the best venue for such a pizza would be your oven at market. I would use the same dough formulation and methods as were last used but with a 9-ounce dough ball.

Peter


Peter,

Sorry you had to spend the better part of the afternoon combing though this thread to find all of the reports on my Buddy’s clone pizza.  That must have been a chore. 

I even forgot about dicepackage’s weighings of the three pepperoni slices.  I had only recalled when he purchased a dough ball at Reply 287 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg125814.html#msg125814  I now recall dicepackage purchasing those three cheese and pepperoni slices and giving an average weight of what 4 slices might be since you provided the link.  I think my brain is slowly dying with remembering everything that needs to be remembered in trying to clone a pizza.  The picture of dicepackage’s pepperoni slice doesn’t even look like the cheese was browned at all.  Wouldn’t you think that maybe his slice might not lost as much weight from the cheese?  I also just looked at dicepackage’s post at Reply 114 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg79558.html#msg79558 and the cheese in those pictures do looked to be browned more.  The sauce also looks thinner than what I applied today.  I looked at dicepackage profile at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=7327 and see he was here on the forum not too long ago.  Maybe I will send him a PM to see if he still eats Buddy’s pizza and if he has gained anymore information about them. 

Interesting what you picked out of my Buddy’s clone attempts and that those numbers suggested a typical weight loss value of around 8%. 

I can see why you might have some reservations about the three slices of cheese and pepperoni dicepackage purchased.  If the whole pie wasn’t weighed, the numbers sure could be off.  There are just too many variables too since Buddy’s uses cheese and pepperoni volumetrically. 

Thanks for telling me you decided on a 9 ounce dough ball weight from all of your efforts. 

I need to decide tomorrow how much dough I need to mix for Tuesday in my Hobart.  I want to use both sizes of my steel pans and try to make enough dough so my Hobart will mix the dough.  I will make some 9 ounce dough balls.  I really don’t have a lot of the brick cheese left, so probably only two of 8”x10” pizzas will be made with brick cheese and pepperoni.  That block of brick cheese was 38.00 with shipping, so I don’t think I will purchase anymore brick cheese from Mandi cheese.  That price is a little ridiculous for me to purchase it again. 

Norma 
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 18, 2012, 09:37:54 AM
Norma,

I can't categorically say that dicepackage's data was wrong. For example, maybe Buddy's partially bakes the pizzas intended to be sold by the slice and then reheats the slices upon order. You can even see in Reply 127 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81715.html#msg81715 that Buddy's has a special container or miniaturized "box" for its slices. Also, as I previously noted at Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436, Buddy's sells partially baked pizzas for its customers to use at home and they have special instructions for their customers to follow: http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/HALF-BAKEDinstructions.pdf. So, they know a lot about partially baking pizzas.

As for the Carando pepperoni, to get a greater flavor impact you might try putting the slices on top of the cheese rather than under it, as Buddy's does for its Specialty pizza called the Detroiter (which also has some Parmesan shavings). A while back, I compared the Buddy's Nutrition information for slices of its cheese and pepperoni pizza and its Detroiter pizza and it appears that the same number of pepperoni slices may be used for a Detroiter pizza as for a cheese and pepperoni pizza of the same size. Also, I don't recall that you ever put the Vermont pepperoni slices under the cheese of one of your pizzas so your memory may be that the Vermont pepperoni was more flavorful than your Carando pepperoni slices bake under the cheese.

With respect to the brick cheese, maybe you can get a  sample of the Foremost Dairy brick cheese for your future tests and maybe ultimately for use at market. And, if you can get a sample of the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni product, you will move even closer to a real Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 18, 2012, 11:22:33 AM
Norma,

I can't categorically say that dicepackage's data was wrong. For example, maybe Buddy's partially bakes the pizzas intended to be sold by the slice and then reheats the slices upon order. You can even see in Reply 127 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81715.html#msg81715 that Buddy's has a special container or miniaturized "box" for its slices. Also, as I previously noted at Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg81436.html#msg81436, Buddy's sells partially baked pizzas for its customers to use at home and they have special instructions for their customers to follow: http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/HALF-BAKEDinstructions.pdf. So, they know a lot about partially baking pizzas.

As for the Carando pepperoni, to get a greater flavor impact you might try putting the slices on top of the cheese rather than under it, as Buddy's does for its Specialty pizza called the Detroiter (which also has some Parmesan shavings). A while back, I compared the Buddy's Nutrition information for slices of its cheese and pepperoni pizza and its Detroiter pizza and it appears that the same number of pepperoni slices may be used for a Detroiter pizza as for a cheese and pepperoni pizza of the same size. Also, I don't recall that you ever put the Vermont pepperoni slices under the cheese of one of your pizzas so your memory may be that the Vermont pepperoni was more flavorful than your Carando pepperoni slices bake under the cheese.

With respect to the brick cheese, maybe you can get a  sample of the Foremost Dairy brick cheese for your future tests and maybe ultimately for use at market. And, if you can get a sample of the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni product, you will move even closer to a real Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza.

Peter



I didn’t mean to imply that you might of thought dicepackage’s data was wrong.  I just know when I slice a Buddy’s clone I won’t get my slices in equal weights and don’t think Buddy’s would either.  I have a leftover slice and didn’t think to weigh it, or the other slices from yesterday, but believe if I would have, they might all weigh different weights.  I did note the pizza box that dice package had his slices in, but didn’t know those are special containers, or a miniaturized “box” for its slices.  I guess only dicepackage, or another member that has purchased just slices could only give the answer if the slices are reheated, or if the reheats are to be done at home.  I guess some customers ask for reheats where other customers might want to do the reheat at home.  I also saw the instructions for Buddy’s partially baked pizzas for their customers to follow for half-baked and frozen pizzas.  I looked at that when I thought of purchasing a Buddy’s pizza.
 
You might recall what I posted about the Foremost Farms brick cheese at Reply 205 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg222298.html#msg222298  Robin told me the only way the Foremost Farms brick cheese could be purchased is by special order and that amount would be 4,000 lbs.  I don’t think Foremost Farms would just give me a sample of their brick cheese when I already told them there is no way I would be able to use that much brick cheese. 

As for the Magherita coarse grind pepperoni and a sample, I had 3 customer service people trying to help me find the Magherita coarse grind pepperoni in my area and so far no luck.  I did ask among all the other questions I did about the Magherita coarse grind pepperoni if I could request a sample.  All of the customer service reps had kept going over my email and none of them even mentioned a sample, so really I don’t know if I will be able to obtain a sample.  There is going to be another salesman that calls me this week since he was on vacation last week. 

If I put the Carando pepperoni on top of the cheese, rather than under it, won’t that also affect the final bake weight and then be more trouble to figure out if any of my cheese and pepperoni Buddy’s clone are similar in final bake weights?  I would like to try a Detroiter specialty pizza, but then wouldn’t I also have to use shaved Parmesan cheese in combination with the brick cheese?  I do have hard Parmesan cheese at market I could use.  I also could use my regular pepperoni under the cheese if you think that might be a better option.

I never put the Carando pepperoni slices under the cheese until this thread, and that was only on my attempt yesterday and when I used the Carando pepperoni at my moms home, I used more pepperoni than I did yesterday at my moms home.  There was a nice pepperoni taste in those 2 Buddy’s clone attempts at my moms home.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 18, 2012, 01:20:04 PM
Norma,

I didn’t mean to imply that you might of thought dicepackage’s data was wrong.
I was referring to my own interpretation of dicepackage's data, not anything that you might have said or thought.

You might recall what I posted about the Foremost Farms brick cheese at Reply 205 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg222298.html#msg222298  Robin told me the only way the Foremost Farms brick cheese could be purchased is by special order and that amount would be 4,000 lbs.  I don’t think Foremost Farms would just give me a sample of their brick cheese when I already told them there is no way I would be able to use that much brick cheese.
Somehow I must have missed Reply 205. Either that, or I suspected that you would have no problem getting a sample because you already use some of the Foremost Farms cheeses. The Crystal Lakes cheeses are good cheeses and the specs for their brick cheese are similar to the specs for the Foremost brick cheese product.  

If I put the Carando pepperoni on top of the cheese, rather than under it, won’t that also affect the final bake weight and then be more trouble to figure out if any of my cheese and pepperoni Buddy’s clone are similar in final bake weights?  I would like to try a Detroiter specialty pizza, but then wouldn’t I also have to use shaved Parmesan cheese in combination with the brick cheese?  I do have hard Parmesan cheese at market I could use.  I also could use my regular pepperoni under the cheese if you think that might be a better option.
I was only thinking of a way for you to get more flavor out of your Carando pepperoni, by letting the top heat char the edges of the pepperoni slices and maybe capture the fat released from the pepperoni slices. Since you did not mention that you used the Carando brand of pepperoni for the Buddy's clone pizzas that you baked in your mother's oven, I did not know that you used that product under the cheese. I believe that you only said that the brand of pepperoni was one that Steve got for you in stick form. For our purposes in reverse engineering and cloning the Buddy's dough, I think we should stick with the pepperoni under the cheese, whatever the brand of pepperoni you choose to use. The pepperoni brand at this point is not particularly critical so long as you use 1.25 ounces of it. But none of this should stop you from trying a Detroiter pizza, with shaved Parmesan and all. You, and possibly future customers, might even like that better.

Peter

Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 18, 2012, 01:40:11 PM
Norma,

Somehow I must have missed Reply 205. Either that, or I suspected that you would have no problem getting a sample because you already use some of the Foremost Farms cheeses. The Crystal Lakes cheeses are good cheeses and the specs for their brick cheese are similar to the specs for the Foremost brick cheese product.
 
I was only thinking of a way for you to get more flavor out of your Carando pepperoni, by letting the top heat char the edges of the pepperoni slices and maybe capture the fat released from the pepperoni slices. Since you did not mention that you used the Carando brand of pepperoni for the Buddy's clone pizzas that you baked in your mother's oven, I did not know that you used that product under the cheese. I believe that you only said that the brand of pepperoni was one that Steve got for you in stick form. For our purposes in reverse engineering and cloning the Buddy's dough, I think we should stick with the pepperoni under the cheese, whatever the brand of pepperoni you choose to use. The pepperoni brand at this point is not particularly critical so long as you use 1.25 ounces of it. But none of this should stop you from trying a Detroiter pizza, with shaved Parmesan and all. You, and possibly future customers, might even like that better.

Peter




Peter,

I did tell Robin that I do use Foremost Farms mozzarellas on my regular pizzas.  I probably could have gotten a sample of Foremost Farms brick cheese if they produced it in smaller quantities.  I guess Buddy’s would be able to use that large amount of brick cheese.  As you saw Robin did tell me she was sorry she couldn’t help more.

They do carry Crystal Lakes cheeses at my local supermarkets, but I haven’t seen any brick cheese.  Since you told me the specs for Crystal Farms brick cheese is similar to the Foremost Farms brick cheese I can try to contact them.  I didn’t even know Crystal Farms produced brick cheese.  Thanks or telling me that information.

I understand what you are saying now why you were telling me to try the Carando pepperoni on the top of the cheese.  I did only say in the two Buddy’s clones (at my moms) that the pepperoni I used was a pepperoni Steve had got for me.  I didn’t mention the brand of pepperoni. 

I will stick with using pepperoni under the cheese for the purposes of reverse engineering and cloning the Buddy’s dough. 

If I find time, I might try a Detroiter. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Tscarborough on November 18, 2012, 02:01:05 PM
9.5 ounce of dough for a 8x10 sounds familiar.......
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 18, 2012, 02:12:12 PM
9.5 ounce of dough for a 8x10 sounds familiar.......
Tom,

Since Norma is using a high yeast dough (0.80% IDY) and a targeted finished dough temperature of around 90 degrees F, and a room temperature fermentation of only a couple hours or so, I'd like to see if 9 ounces of dough produces a dough with above average height.

My original thinking was that Norma was using an amount of dough--around 9 3/4--ounces, that seemed reasonable. I might have rounded it off to 10 ounces for ease of scaling in a commercial environment.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 18, 2012, 03:04:58 PM
Peter and Tom,

Now I am confused.  I am not trying an emergency dough at market on Tuesday, but might try one next weekend at home.

What I am confused about it should I scale my dough balls to 9 ounces for the larger batch of Buddy’s clone dough I plan to make at market tomorrow for my 8“x10“ steel pans?  I plan on using the smaller steel pans and the larger steel pans at market.   

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 18, 2012, 03:26:28 PM
Now I am confused.  I am not trying an emergency dough at market on Tuesday, but might try one next weekend at home.

What I am confused about it should I scale my dough balls to 9 ounces for the larger batch of Buddy’s clone dough I plan to make at market tomorrow for my 8“x10“ steel pans?  I plan on using the smaller steel pans and the larger steel pans at market.   

Norma,

That is up to you. If you want to use the Buddy's clone dough formulation that you have been using, with 277 grams of dough for your 8" x 10" pan, and scale that up to more pizzas (more pans), you can do that. It doesn't have to be an emergency dough. For your larger pan (10" x 14"), you can use the thickness factor for the same dough and scale up the dough that way using the expanded dough calculating tool.

The 9-ounce dough ball experiment can await next weekend. That amount may not the best one to use for a non-emergency dough.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 18, 2012, 06:18:09 PM
Norma,

That is up to you. If you want to use the Buddy's clone dough formulation that you have been using, with 277 grams of dough for your 8" x 10" pan, and scale that up to more pizzas (more pans), you can do that. It doesn't have to be an emergency dough. For your larger pan (10" x 14"), you can use the thickness factor for the same dough and scale up the dough that way using the expanded dough calculating tool.

The 9-ounce dough ball experiment can await next weekend. That amount may not the best one to use for a non-emergency dough.

Peter


Thanks Peter,

I understand now.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 19, 2012, 07:38:36 PM
I really don’t know if I figured out the formulations right for 3 large dough balls and 5 small dough balls, but I did combine them into one batch.  I used a larger bowl residue compensation than the last time. 

If I did do the formulations right, I think my Kitchen Aid mixer mixes better than my Hobart mixer, or I didn’t have enough dough to mix in the Hobart.  The last time I mixed the emergency dough in my Kitchen Aid mixer there was no extra flour used to ball the dough.   

I usually always mix on speed one in the Hobart, but did use speed two today after the dough did climb the dough hook.

I will wait and see what happens tomorrow.

These are two videos of the Buddy’s clone dough in the Hobart mixer. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ihTdSNdQ2M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYlGAB7FuZA

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 19, 2012, 07:42:32 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 20, 2012, 06:43:28 AM
Incase anyone is interested, these are the print out sheets from the expanded dough calculations tool for the dough batches using the 8”x10” pans and the 10”x14” pans for 5 dough balls and 3 dough balls with a bowl residue compensation of 2.5%.  Over 6 lbs. of dough was mixed yesterday in one batch.  Usually a little over 6 lbs. of dough can be mixed with the Hobart, but I don’t know about higher hydration doughs.  I thought I would post the print out sheets incase I did something wrong in putting numbers in the expanded dough calculation tool.  I used lbs. to measure out the ingredients on my market scale yesterday.

The small dough balls were scaled at 277 grams and the larger dough balls were scaled at 1 lb.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 20, 2012, 08:33:22 AM
Norma,

I'm glad that you posted the dough formulations you used. Your entries into the expanded dough calculating tool are correct but what puzzles me is how you ended up with only 16 ounces for the dough for the 10" x 14" pan. That is less than specified in the dough calculating tool, even with the higher bowl residue compensation value. Did you mean 18 ounces?

There is also another wrinkle in the amount of dough. As you might recall from Reply 470 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg220496/topicseen.html#msg220496, Buddy's told us that they use twice the amount of dough for the larger pan as for the smaller pan. The numbers you entered for the large size Buddy's clone should work similarly to the smaller size Buddy's clone because the same thickness factor is used, but technically you should have used 2 x 977 grams, or 19.54 ounces of dough for the larger pan. That was an oversight on our part. Based on what Buddy's told us in Reply 470 referenced above, I'm not sure that even Buddy's, or at least the folks who respond to email inquiries, know that the sizes of the slices in the two size pans are not the same.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 20, 2012, 09:17:21 PM
Norma,

I'm glad that you posted the dough formulations you used. Your entries into the expanded dough calculating tool are correct but what puzzles me is how you ended up with only 16 ounces for the dough for the 10" x 14" pan. That is less than specified in the dough calculating tool, even with the higher bowl residue compensation value. Did you mean 18 ounces?

There is also another wrinkle in the amount of dough. As you might recall from Reply 470 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg220496/topicseen.html#msg220496, Buddy's told us that they use twice the amount of dough for the larger pan as for the smaller pan. The numbers you entered for the large size Buddy's clone should work similarly to the smaller size Buddy's clone because the same thickness factor is used, but technically you should have used 2 x 977 grams, or 19.54 ounces of dough for the larger pan. That was an oversight on our part. Based on what Buddy's told us in Reply 470 referenced above, I'm not sure that even Buddy's, or at least the folks who respond to email inquiries, know that the sizes of the slices in the two size pans are not the same.

Peter

Peter,

I didn’t even recall that Buddy told us at Reply 470 that they use twice the amount of dough for a larger pans.  My brain can’t retain everything that is in that thread.  

Don’t be puzzled by what I did with using 1 lb. of dough for the 10”x14” pan.  I just looked at the final dough ball weight and guessed at how much dough I should used for a 10”x14” pan.  I should have posted the print out sheets before I went to market and asked you how much dough I should have used.

I don’t have time to resize all the pictures tonight because it is late and might not have time to resize them and do a report tomorrow because I have to take a family member for an operation, but if you look at these 3 pictures I did have time to resize you can see by using 1 lb. of dough the height amount doesn’t look too bad when using the 10”x14” pan.  I can’t couldn’t even tell any difference in the crumb in the finished pizza, compared to the other Buddy’s clones I made today.  

I will do better the next time and use 19.54 ounces of dough for the larger pan.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 20, 2012, 10:17:20 PM
I just wanted to say that the 277 grams Buddy’s clone dough ball can make a decent regular pizza. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 20, 2012, 10:23:13 PM
Decent  ???
That pie blows anything around here completely outta the water Norma, and that is no joke.  :chef:
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 20, 2012, 10:42:36 PM
Decent  ???
That pie blows anything around here completely outta the water Norma, and that is no joke.  :chef:

Bob,

Thanks!  Lets just say it was different without oil added in the dough.

Norma

Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 21, 2012, 09:09:06 AM
I didn’t even recall that Buddy told us at Reply 470 that they use twice the amount of dough for a larger pans.

Norma,

Out of curiosity, I decided to calculate the sizes of the slices in the 4-square 8" x 10" pan and the 8-square 10" x 14" pan. For this purpose, I used the bottom dimensions of the pans since those dimensions are fixed. As you know, the top dimensions of the slices will vary depending on the thickness of the crust in the pans, which can vary from one pizza to another and even across a single crust.

The dimensions of a 4-square slice are 2.125" x 1.625" (3.45 square inches), and the dimensions of an 8-square slice are 2.125" x 1.53125" (3.25 square inches). On an area basis, a 4-square slice is 5.77% larger than an 8-square slice. The above dimensions assume that the slices for the two pan sizes are all of the same size, which is rarely likely to be the case since it is humans who are slicing the pizzas without regard for great accuracy. Even though there is a slight difference in the sizes of the 4-square and 8-square slices, their weights might be similar since Buddy's uses disproportionately more cheese and dough (and maybe even more sauce and pepperoni in the case of a cheese and pepperoni pizza) for the 8-square pizzas. Also, the shrinkage of the slices during baking may be different for the 8-square pizzas than the 4-square pizzas. We would need data on the weights of slices form both size pans to get a better feel for the difference in weights of the two sizes of slices. I think you can now see why Buddys' Nutrition information is vague and unreliable for our purposes.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 21, 2012, 09:21:18 AM
Don’t be puzzled by what I did with using 1 lb. of dough for the 10”x14” pan.  I just looked at the final dough ball weight and guessed at how much dough I should used for a 10”x14” pan.

Norma,

In a way, I am kind of glad you winged it with the one pound of dough for the 10" x 14" pan. I say this because I have been wondering what the lower limit is for the weight of dough that Buddy's uses to make its pizzas and still get good finished crust thickness. That is also the reason why I wanted to see how a 9-ounce dough ball would behave in the 8" x 10" pan. I will await your full report to see if it sheds any light on the answers to these kinds of questions, especially since the amounts of cheese and sauce and toppings, as well as the method of preparing and proofing the dough, can affect the final thickness of the pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 21, 2012, 07:36:56 PM
Norma,

In a way, I am kind of glad you winged it with the one pound of dough for the 10" x 14" pan. I say this because I have been wondering what the lower limit is for the weight of dough that Buddy's uses to make its pizzas and still get good finished crust thickness. That is also the reason why I wanted to see how a 9-ounce dough ball would behave in the 8" x 10" pan. I will await your full report to see if it sheds any light on the answers to these kinds of questions, especially since the amounts of cheese and sauce and toppings, as well as the method of preparing and proofing the dough, can affect the final thickness of the pizza.

Peter

Peter,

I have no idea what the lower limit is for the weight Buddy’s might use to make their pizzas and still get a good finished crust finished crust thickness, but I tried the 3 dough balls for the larger steel pan in three different tempering ways to see what would happen.  I also wanted to see if it made any differences if the skin stayed moist while fermenting in how the crumb rose in the baked pizza.   The partial pictures of first Buddy clone I posted were from fermenting the dough on top of my oven with the metal lid kept on when the dough was fermenting and that skin did stay moist with no crusty “skin“.  The second and third skins in steel pan were fermented for varying amounts of time, until they did develop skins and the 3rd one did have somewhat of a tough skin.  I wanted to see if the dough still rose about the same when baking.  All three skins did rise about the same when baked.  I thought that was somewhat interesting.  I would have thought the skins with the toughest skin wouldn’t have risen as much when baked in the oven with all the toppings applied.  I guess the dough fermenting beneath the skin, still is okay any way (and will still rise about the same when baked in the oven), but will have to do some more experiments on that because right now I don’t have any conclusions. 

I don’t have time to do a full report and resize all the pictures tonight, but these are the numbers for the 2 Buddy’s clone attempts with pepperoni (same brand as last time) and cheese.  Both of these dough balls were just put in the steel pans then pressed open and left to ferment with no lids on.  I used 8 ounces of brick cheese to dress the 2 pizzas and for the one pizza used 5.4 ounces of sauce.  For the second pizza I used 4.9 ounces of sauce.  The final bake weight of the first pizza was 1 lb. 6.1 ounces.  For the second Buddy’s clone attempt the final bake weight was 1 lb. 4.6 ounces.  I don’t really know how much bake loss weights both of those pizzas will have, but will note that the sauce might have been a little thinner in the second pizza.  The first pizza took 11 minutes 24 seconds to bake and the second pizza took 12 minutes 1 second to bake.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 21, 2012, 07:54:52 PM
I just wanted to post that I had contacted Crystal Farms cheese on Sunday via their Contact feature.  This is the email I received today from Crystal Farms.  When I searched the Crystal Farms website at http://www.crystalfarmscheese.com/  I could find no mention of brick cheese.

Dear Norma:

We want to thank you very much for taking the time to contact the Crystal Farms Consumer Service Center. We currently do not distribute a Brick cheese.

Please feel free to contact me with any additional comments or questions.

Sincerely,
Patricia Markuson
Crystal Farms
Customer Service Lead
[email protected]

I wonder if I should try to contact Land O’ Lakes to see if they carry brick cheese.  I saw when PowerWagonPete posted at Reply 142 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20093.msg206817.html#msg206817 about the New Bridge brick cheese he said it has similar Nutrition Facts to Land O’ Lakes brick cheese.  Where Pete lives really isn’t that far away from me.  If I can’t find the New Bridge brick cheese in my local supermarkets I might travel to where Pete live.  I wonder who manufactures the New Brick cheese too.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 21, 2012, 08:30:03 PM
Norma,

I thought that I had recalled seeing the logo for the Crystal Farms cheese (http://www.crystalfarms.com/) in one of your earlier posts. I found that post, at Reply 72 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220464.html#msg220464, but I can now see that I was mistaken on the logo and the name (http://www.greatlakescheese.com/about-great-lakes-cheese.php). The correct name is Great Lakes. I'm positive that I have seen that brand in one of the supermarkets near me. However, I don't recall seeing a brick cheese under that name. Brick cheese in general is not one that I have seen in the stores near me although maybe there is a brand somewhere in the specialty cheese section. That is also the only place where I can find white cheddar cheese. But at highly inflated prices.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 21, 2012, 08:47:22 PM
I don’t have time to do a full report and resize all the pictures tonight, but these are the numbers for the 2 Buddy’s clone attempts with pepperoni (same brand as last time) and cheese.  Both of these dough balls were just put in the steel pans then pressed open and left to ferment with no lids on.  I used 8 ounces of brick cheese to dress the 2 pizzas and for the one pizza used 5.4 ounces of sauce.  For the second pizza I used 4.9 ounces of sauce.  The final bake weight of the first pizza was 1 lb. 6.1 ounces.  For the second Buddy’s clone attempt the final bake weight was 1 lb. 4.6 ounces.  I don’t really know how much bake loss weights both of those pizzas will have, but will note that the sauce might have been a little thinner in the second pizza.  The first pizza took 11 minutes 24 seconds to bake and the second pizza took 12 minutes 1 second to bake.

Norma,

Based on the information that you provided, the first cheese and pepperoni pizza sustained a weight loss of 9.5%, and the second cheese and pepperoni pizza sustained a weight loss of 13.8%. For both pizzas, I assumed that you used 1.25 ounces of pepperoni slices. We perhaps shouldn't make too much of the weight losses since the conditions were different than what we believe Buddy's is doing in making its emergency dough pizzas.

Peter

Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 21, 2012, 09:01:29 PM
Norma,

I thought that I had recalled seeing the logo for the Crystal Farms cheese (http://www.crystalfarms.com/) in one of your earlier posts. I found that post, at Reply 72 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg220464.html#msg220464, but I can now see that I was mistaken on the logo and the name (http://www.greatlakescheese.com/about-great-lakes-cheese.php). The correct name is Great Lakes. I'm positive that I have seen that brand in one of the supermarkets near me. However, I don't recall seeing a brick cheese under that name. Brick cheese in general is not one that I have seen in the stores near me although maybe there is a brand somewhere in the specialty cheese section. That is also the only place where I can find white cheddar cheese. But at highly inflated prices.

Peter

Peter,

I haven’t seen Great Lakes cheeses in any supermarkets in my area.  The only supermarket where my daughter could find Great Lakes sharp cheddar was in Wildwood where I posted about at Reply 1080 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg191222/topicseen.html#msg191222 in the boardwalk thread.  Trenton Bill told me they do carry Great Lakes cheeses in NJ, but he has never seen any Great Lakes brick cheese.  He also purchased his brick cheese from Mandi Cheese, but like me, said he isn’t going to pay that much for brick cheese again.

I think I will try to contact Land O’ Lakes to see if they carry brick cheese.  I am about at a loss where to find the brick cheese.  I really don’t know who produces the New Bridge brick cheese that Pete purchased.  

I guess white cheddars are scarce in Texas, since you can only find them at highly inflated prices.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 21, 2012, 09:10:08 PM
Norma,

Based on the information that you provided, the first cheese and pepperoni pizza sustained a weight loss of 9.5%, and the second cheese and pepperoni pizza sustained a weight loss of 13.8%. For both pizzas, I assumed that you used 1.25 ounces of pepperoni slices. We perhaps shouldn't make too much of the weight losses since the conditions were different than what we believe Buddy's is doing in making its emergency dough pizzas.

Peter



Peter,

That sure is a big difference in weight losses for the two cheese and pepperoni pizzas.  I did use 1.25 ounces of pepperoni slices for both pizzas.  I used my smaller scale to make sure the weight of the pepperoni slices were 1.25 ounces. 

I sure don’t know why Buddy’s emergency dough pizzas would be that much different in weight losses than mind.  Do you still want me to make an emergency cheese and pepperoni pizza this weekend in my home oven, or do you think my home oven is another variable that will just confuse baked weight loss weights?

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 21, 2012, 09:24:16 PM
I sure don’t know why Buddy’s emergency dough pizzas would be that much different in weight losses than mine.  Do you still want me to make an emergency cheese and pepperoni pizza this weekend in my home oven, or do you think my home oven is another variable that will just confuse baked weight loss weights?

Norma,

That is entirely up to you. There are so many variables in a Buddy's pizza even as made at Buddy's that it is hard to know which information and data will be useful in trying to replicate their pizzas. The closest test at the moment would be to make an emergency Buddy's clone dough at market using 9 ounces of dough, 8 ounces of brick cheese, 1.25 ounces of pepperoni slices, some sauce, and bake the pizza at about the same temperature and for the same amount of time as Buddy's does. The next closest test would be to do the same thing but with your home oven. It would also help if we had some weight data for a real Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 22, 2012, 08:01:23 AM
Norma,

That is entirely up to you. There are so many variables in a Buddy's pizza even as made at Buddy's that it is hard to know which information and data will be useful in trying to replicate their pizzas. The closest test at the moment would be to make an emergency Buddy's clone dough at market using 9 ounces of dough, 8 ounces of brick cheese, 1.25 ounces of pepperoni slices, some sauce, and bake the pizza at about the same temperature and for the same amount of time as Buddy's does. The next closest test would be to do the same thing but with your home oven. It would also help if we had some weight data for a real Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza.

Peter

Peter,

I will think over what you posted and might try one emergency dough at market on Tuesday if I find time.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 22, 2012, 08:03:18 AM
This is the rest of the report about what happened with the Buddy’s clone pizza I experimented with on Tuesday.  These are the rest of the pictures of the first Buddy’s clone attempt in the bigger steel pan that I posted some of the pictures at Reply 395 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg224599.html#msg224599   

The first picture shows how moist the top of the dough was.  Even with the moist dough, the toppings didn’t make the crumb fall in the bake.  That still puzzles me.

One thing I can’t figure out is why some of the pizzas had a droop at one end when they were finished baking.  I think that was on two of the Buddy’s attempts.  One being in a larger pan and one being in a smaller pan.  I don’t know if too much MFB was added to the steel pan that caused that or not.  I wonder if I should try all Canola oil in the bakes next Tuesday.

Also I wonder now since I proofed the dough in the steel pans and saw a “skin” form on the doughs that were left out without any cover if that is really what Buddy’s is doing.  I think I recall that Mary Heller was carrying two Buddy’s doughs in the steel pans that didn’t look like there were “skins” on the doughs in the steel pans.  I wonder if Buddy’s might be using some kind of proofer that protects the skins from forming a “skin”.  There are too many mysteries about Buddy’s pizzas that I don’t truly know. 

I am also trying to figure out just how Buddy’s mixes their dough.  As could be seen on the two videos I took in my Hobart mixer, I did really mix the dough fast and on second speed different times.  The dough still was sticky.  I had at first wondered if those higher mix speeds might damaged the dough in some way, but really don’t think they did.  I was holding my breath on that one and really didn’t know until Tuesday if those dough balls would be okay.  I had to oil my doughs balls though because I was putting them in plastic bags to ferment until the next day.  When I took the dough balls out of the plastic bags, they really weren’t in round dough balls anymore.  I know Buddy’s doesn’t put their dough balls in plastic bags.

I might be thinking ahead too much, but for Christmas and New Years Day at market, since they are both on Tuesdays, market will only be opened on Mondays until 3:00 PM.  I am kind of wondering how I am going to make this dough on a Friday and also my regular NY style pizza dough in the amount of yeast I might have to try.  From Friday to Monday is a lot different than one day in trying to ferment my doughs. 

Norma 
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 22, 2012, 08:04:13 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 22, 2012, 08:08:59 AM
This were the two Buddy's attempts in a smaller pan.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 22, 2012, 08:11:15 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 22, 2012, 08:13:52 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 22, 2012, 08:22:20 AM
This was the one other larger Buddy's clone pizza attempt.  There was a "skin" on this dough, but it didn't seem to affect the rise of the crumb when baked.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 22, 2012, 08:23:51 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 22, 2012, 10:51:38 AM
Norma,

The first picture shows how moist the top of the dough was.  Even with the moist dough, the toppings didn’t make the crumb fall in the bake.  That still puzzles me.
I wouldn't fight it. Apparently there is enough strength in the gluten matrix and retention of the gases of fermentation that the dough can tolerate adding cheese, pepperoni slices and some sauce on top of it without collapsing. Also, the sides of the pans contain the dough and may prevent it from spreading when things are put on top of it.

One thing I can’t figure out is why some of the pizzas had a droop at one end when they were finished baking.  I think that was on two of the Buddy’s attempts.  One being in a larger pan and one being in a smaller pan.  I don’t know if too much MFB was added to the steel pan that caused that or not.  I wonder if I should try all Canola oil in the bakes next Tuesday.
One of the things that I noticed was that lufty, the former employee of Buddy's, said to use the "thumb to press the corners into the pan a midway up the edge". See his discussion of this point at Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795. Also, the same point was made in the video at http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/19042572/how-to-make-buddys-lake-huron-pizza where, at 1:52, the dough is pushed up at the corners. Maybe that simple measure helps "lock" the dough in place and keeps the ends from shrinking more than the rest of the pizza. It's also possible, I suppose, that the dough at the sides is pushed up relative to the center but I have not read anywhere that that is done. I also recall that one member used shortening at the corners of the pan, although I have seen no evidence that Buddy's does that. However, it might help in your case if it solves the problem.

Also I wonder now since I proofed the dough in the steel pans and saw a “skin” form on the doughs that were left out without any cover if that is really what Buddy’s is doing.  I think I recall that Mary Heller was carrying two Buddy’s doughs in the steel pans that didn’t look like there were “skins” on the doughs in the steel pans.  I wonder if Buddy’s might be using some kind of proofer that protects the skins from forming a “skin”.  There are too many mysteries about Buddy’s pizzas that I don’t truly know.
At this point, I am not prepared to ignore or refute what lufty said about how the Buddy's dough is made and managed, as he discusses at Reply 318 referenced above. I have not read anywhere that Buddy's uses a proofer of any sort. steel_baker entertained the idea of using a proofer at Buddy's, at Reply 298 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg126411/topicseen.html#msg126411, but as far as I know that was never confirmed. 

I am also trying to figure out just how Buddy’s mixes their dough.  As could be seen on the two videos I took in my Hobart mixer, I did really mix the dough fast and on second speed different times.  The dough still was sticky.  I had at first wondered if those higher mix speeds might damaged the dough in some way, but really don’t think they did.  I was holding my breath on that one and really didn’t know until Tuesday if those dough balls would be okay.  I had to oil my doughs balls though because I was putting them in plastic bags to ferment until the next day.  When I took the dough balls out of the plastic bags, they really weren’t in round dough balls anymore.  I know Buddy’s doesn’t put their dough balls in plastic bags.

My guess is that Buddy's works off of 50 pound bags of flour and otherwise uses volume measurements for the rest of the ingredients since that would simplify matters for the workers who make the dough. A 50-pound bag of flour would seem to be enough to make a fair number of dough balls for both the small and large pans for lunch service. Based on typical volumes learned from experience, further dough batches would be made throughoy the day for later service. If timed properly, that might negate the need for a proofer.

I noticed over at Reply 1211 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20791.msg224601.html#msg224601 that you offered your Detroit-style pizza for sale at market. How did that go, and how did the pizzas taste?

Peter
 

 

Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 22, 2012, 02:22:30 PM
Norma,
I wouldn't fight it. Apparently there is enough strength in the gluten matrix and retention of the gases of fermentation that the dough can tolerate adding cheese, pepperoni slices and some sauce on top of it without collapsing. Also, the sides of the pans contain the dough and may prevent it from spreading when things are put on top of it.
One of the things that I noticed was that lufty, the former employee of Buddy's, said to use the "thumb to press the corners into the pan a midway up the edge". See his discussion of this point at Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795. Also, the same point was made in the video at http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/19042572/how-to-make-buddys-lake-huron-pizza where, at 1:52, the dough is pushed up at the corners. Maybe that simple measure helps "lock" the dough in place and keeps the ends from shrinking more than the rest of the pizza. It's also possible, I suppose, that the dough at the sides is pushed up relative to the center but I have not read anywhere that that is done. I also recall that one member used shortening at the corners of the pan, although I have seen no evidence that Buddy's does that. However, it might help in your case if it solves the problem.
At this point, I am not prepared to ignore or refute what lufty said about how the Buddy's dough is made and managed, as he discusses at Reply 318 referenced above. I have not read anywhere that Buddy's uses a proofer of any sort. steel_baker entertained the idea of using a proofer at Buddy's, at Reply 298 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg126411/topicseen.html#msg126411, but as far as I know that was never confirmed. 
 
My guess is that Buddy's works off of 50 pound bags of flour and otherwise uses volume measurements for the rest of the ingredients since that would simplify matters for the workers who make the dough. A 50-pound bag of flour would seem to be enough to make a fair number of dough balls for both the small and large pans for lunch service. Based on typical volumes learned from experience, further dough batches would be made throughoy the day for later service. If timed properly, that might negate the need for a proofer.

I noticed over at Reply 1211 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20791.msg224601.html#msg224601 that you offered your Detroit-style pizza for sale at market. How did that go, and how did the pizzas taste?

Peter
 

 




Peter,

I sure am not going to fight it if there is enough gluten matrix and retention of gases of fermentation that it can hold up to adding the cheese and pepperoni slices and then sauce on top without collapsing.  I didn’t think about the sides of the pans maybe might have prevented the dough from spreading when toppings are place on top. 

I tried to make my doughs stick halfway up the sides of the pans different time like lufty posted, but for some reason the dough always comes back down while tempering.  I think I had better results with getting the dough to stick to the pans halfway up when I made the emergency Buddy's clone dough.

I wouldn’t think Buddy’s would use a proofer either, because I saw how fast dough can rise when 0.80% IDY was added with a higher final dough temperature. 

I never thought about Buddy’s using volume measurements for the rest of the ingredients other than the 50 lb. bag, but do know other big pizzerias do just add the other ingredients by volume. 

I had wanted to offer some of the Detroit-style pizzas for lunch, but became busy when a worker came and ordered different whole pizzas for workers where he worked.  If I am going to be making these Detroit-style pizzas all the time, I have to manage my time and doughs better.  In the later afternoon and early evening, Steve and I did put some Detroit-style pizzas out to sell though.  The one lady customer came back twice and said how good the pizza was.  There were also a few more customers that also really liked the Detroit-style pizzas.  The one man said he was a connoisseur of good pizzas and he said he really liked the Detroit-style pizza and he also would be back to purchase more.  That Detroit-style pizza had a blend of AMPI mild white cheddar and mozzarellas.  He liked the taste of the cheddar and the light texture of the crumb.  Of course Steve and I had to explain what a Detroit-style pizza was.  The smaller Detroit-style pizzas weren’t offered for sale.  Steve and my taste testers ate them.  Hopefully this style of pizza will be appealing to my customers and I can get my act together to be able to make them if customers are interested.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 22, 2012, 02:52:26 PM
I might be thinking ahead too much, but for Christmas and New Years Day at market, since they are both on Tuesdays, market will only be opened on Mondays until 3:00 PM.  I am kind of wondering how I am going to make this dough on a Friday and also my regular NY style pizza dough in the amount of yeast I might have to try.  From Friday to Monday is a lot different than one day in trying to ferment my doughs. 

Norma,

If it turns out that your customers by Christmas and New Years Day are still interested in your Detroit-style pizzas, I would think that the yeast issue should be something that can be resolved. Unfortunately, I don't think that the poppy seed trick will be effective for the Detroit-style dough because of the way that it is formed in your pans and when that takes place. So, some experimentation may be required in advance of the above holidays. You may recall that Via 313 relies on cold fermentation of the dough, so that approach is clearly a viable one. The pizzas might even have a better flavor profile because of the extended fermentation.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 22, 2012, 09:57:59 PM
Norma,

If it turns out that your customers by Christmas and New Years Day are still interested in your Detroit-style pizzas, I would think that the yeast issue should be something that can be resolved. Unfortunately, I don't think that the poppy seed trick will be effective for the Detroit-style dough because of the way that it is formed in your pans and when that takes place. So, some experimentation may be required in advance of the above holidays. You may recall that Via 313 relies on cold fermentation of the dough, so that approach is clearly a viable one. The pizzas might even have a better flavor profile because of the extended fermentation.

Peter

Peter,

I think I will start on experimenting with a smaller amount of yeast the week after next.  I do recall that Via 313 relies on cold fermentation of their dough, but for three days of cold fermentation with a higher hydration dough it might get a little tricky.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 23, 2012, 08:05:54 AM
I think I will start on experimenting with a smaller amount of yeast the week after next.  I do recall that Via 313 relies on cold fermentation of their dough, but for three days of cold fermentation with a higher hydration dough it might get a little tricky.

Norma,

It is true that a higher hydration dough will ferment faster than a lower hydration dough (all other things being equal), but you can compensate for that by using lower dough temperatures (low finished dough temperature and the refrigerator/deli case) and less yeast. In your case, you might start with about 0.20-0.25% IDY and go from there depending on your test results. You might also find it necessary to give the dough a decent tempering in order to develop the desired height in the dough. This experiment can be conducted at home if you wish to start the experiment sooner. All you would be trying to do is to get a handle on the amount of IDY needed to get the job done.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 23, 2012, 08:21:34 AM
Norma,

It is true that a higher hydration dough will ferment faster than a lower hydration dough (all other things being equal), but you can compensate for that by using lower dough temperatures (low finished dough temperature and the refrigerator/deli case) and less yeast. In your case, you might start with about 0.20-0.25% IDY and go from there depending on your test results. You might also find it necessary to give the dough a decent tempering in order to develop the desired height in the dough. This experiment can be conducted at home if you wish to start the experiment sooner. All you would be trying to do is to get a handle on the amount of IDY needed to get the job done.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me that I can compensate for the higher hydration by using a lower final dough temperature and use less yeast.  That is what I thought, but really wasn’t sure on much yeast to use.  0.20-0.25% IDY sounds good to me.  Maybe I will make an experimental dough tomorrow morning to try for Tuesday.  That will be the same amount of days that I would need to ferment my doughs for market for the two weeks.  My home fridge is about 40 degrees F, so that should almost be similar to what my deli case is. 

What kind of final dough temperature do you suggest?  Why did you post that the dough might need a decent tempering in order to develop the desired height in the baked crumb.  Wouldn’t the dough temper the same way, no matter if it was cold fermented for 3 days or 1 day?

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 23, 2012, 08:35:25 AM
What kind of final dough temperature do you suggest?  Why did you post that the dough might need a decent tempering in order to develop the desired height in the baked crumb.  Wouldn’t the dough temper the same way, no matter if it was cold fermented for 3 days or 1 day?

Norma,

I would shoot for the normal finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F, but skip the brief rest period at room temperature before going into the refrigerator. As for the tempering of the dough, I was relying on the fact that, all else being equal, a dough with more yeast will rise faster at a given temperature than one with less yeast. As you have learned, when you have made the Buddy's clone emergency doughs with 0.80% IDY and a finished dough temperature of around 90 degrees F, the dough just about explodes after an hour or two. Given enough time, a dough with a small amount of yeast might rise as much as one with more yeast but the temper time will be considerably longer. Alternatively, you can use a higher temper temperature.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 23, 2012, 10:44:56 AM
Norma,

I would shoot for the normal finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F, but skip the brief rest period at room temperature before going into the refrigerator. As for the tempering of the dough, I was relying on the fact that, all else being equal, a dough with more yeast will rise faster at a given temperature than one with less yeast. As you have learned, when you have made the Buddy's clone emergency doughs with 0.80% IDY and a finished dough temperature of around 90 degrees F, the dough just about explodes after an hour or two. Given enough time, a dough with a small amount of yeast might rise as much as one with more yeast but the temper time will be considerably longer. Alternatively, you can use a higher temper temperature.

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for telling me what finished dough temperature to shoot for, but to skip the brief rest period.  I didn’t think about all else being equal that a dough made with more yeast will rise faster at a given temperature than one made with less yeast, like an emergency dough will rise faster.  I was just thinking about when I used 0.60% IDY the dough tempered the same at market.  I also didn’t think about using a higher temper temperature.  I guess I could use the Hatco unit for that if I needed.

I also was thinking more about what I can try and maybe this coming week I will freeze one dough ball to see what happens.  It that works out okay, maybe I can make enough dough balls the week before and freeze them.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 23, 2012, 10:57:13 AM
I also was thinking more about what I can try and maybe this coming week I will freeze one dough ball to see what happens.  It that works out okay, maybe I can make enough dough balls the week before and freeze them.

Norma,

There's no reason why you shouldn't be able to freeze the Buddy's clone doughs, as we both learned in spades when we played around with the Mellow Mushroom frozen dough balls. However, what you will have to decide is how you would like to use the defrosted dough balls, which can affect the amount of yeast to use. For example, if you want the defrosted dough to behave like an emergency dough, you may want to up the amount of yeast at the outset to around 1% IDY to compensate for the losses of fermentation capacity due to the freezing process. Similarly, for a frozen Buddy's clone dough that you used with 0.60% IDY, you may want to increase the amount of yeast to about 0.80% IDY. And so on and so forth.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 23, 2012, 11:55:01 AM
Norma,

There's no reason why you shouldn't be able to freeze the Buddy's clone doughs, as we both learned in spades when we played around with the Mellow Mushroom frozen dough balls. However, what you will have to decide is how you would like to use the defrosted dough balls, which can affect the amount of yeast to use. For example, if you want the defrosted dough to behave like an emergency dough, you may want to up the amount of yeast at the outset to around 1% IDY to compensate for the losses of fermentation capacity due to the freezing process. Similarly, for a frozen Buddy's clone dough that you used with 0.60% IDY, you may want to increase the amount of yeast to about 0.80% IDY. And so on and so forth.

Peter

Peter,

I know we both learned a lot playing around with the Mellow Mushroom frozen dough balls.  Maybe I will also make a emergency Buddy’s clone dough ball tomorrow and up the yeast amount to 1% IDY to see what might happen Tuesday.  At first I didn’t think about upping the amount of yeast for a emergency frozen dough ball.  Thanks for refreshing my memory.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 23, 2012, 10:42:17 PM
Norma, what temp/time are you baking at?

I'm having a hard time getting the cheese edge crust as dark as I want it without getting the cheese on top too dark. Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 23, 2012, 11:26:35 PM
Norma, what temp/time are you baking at?

I'm having a hard time getting the cheese edge crust as dark as I want it without getting the cheese on top too dark. Any suggestions?

Craig,

As you can see if you scan though this thread for pictures, my experimental Detroit-style pizzas do have different looks on the how dark the cheese edges are.  Some of these pizzas have been baked in my home oven, some at market and my moms gas oven.  At home I first tried baking without a pizza stone, but now do use a pizza stone.  At home I think I have baked at about 475 to 500 degrees F for anywhere from about 12 to 14 minutes, either on the bottom rack, or the second to bottom oven rack.  At market there is a lower head space in the deck oven and the temperature is about 525 to about 538 degrees F, depending on how much the oven doors are opened and what spot the pizzas are placed in the oven.  The baked time at market can vary too from about 11 minutes some seconds to almost 13 minutes something seconds.  I am still not sure if the kind of cheese matters too (I have tried brick Eddie’s from Mandi Cheese and a blend of AMPI mild white cheddar and two mozzarellas).  I kind of like it if the edges aren’t really dark, but just crispy and a little bit dark, if that makes any sense.  I still have to try to press the cheese or cheese into the edges of the pan more to see what happens.  I don’t have problems at market with my Greek-style pizza getting a dark enough edges, something like at Reply 466 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg224614.html#msg224614   That just seems to happen no matter what kind of cheddar I use at the edges when I use the steel blackbuster pans (they are heavier than the pans I am using for these Detroit-style pies).

In my moms gas oven the edges seemed to bake okay and I used a pizza stone.

I am still trying to figure everything out myself.

Where in your oven are you baking your Detroit-style pizza and are you using a stone?  How long are your bakes?

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 24, 2012, 03:34:25 PM
I mixed the one Buddy’s clone dough to be fermented until Tuesday and used 0.20% IDY with a final dough temperature of 78.9 degrees F.  Poppy seeds were placed on the dough ball to watch how it ferments until Tuesday.  I used the same way of mixing using the flat beater and mixed on speed one and then rested the dough some and mixed again.  The dough was a little sticky.  The dough ball was placed right into the refrigerator with no rest time at room temperature.  The dough ball was scaled to 9.5 ounces because of Tom’s post. 

This is the print out sheet in case anyone is interested.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 24, 2012, 03:39:59 PM
I also mixed the emergency Buddy’s clone dough right after I mixed the last Buddy’s clone dough.  I wasn’t sure what final dough temperature to shoot for in the emergency dough, so I went for a little lower final dough temperature.  The final dough temperature was 75.8 degrees F.  I used 1% IDY in the formulation.  I mixed this Buddy’s clone dough in a little different way to see what would happen.  It was mixed on speed 3 in my Kitchen Aid mixer right from the start.  I sure don’t know why, but that seemed to mix the dough better at least for me.  The dough ball wasn’t as sticky for some reason and wanted to hold its shape better when balling.  Both dough balls were oiled with Canola oil.  Poppy seeds were also placed on this dough ball too so I can watch how it ferments when it is defrosted.  From start to finish with this Buddy’s clone dough ball only 10 minutes lapsed until the dough was mixed, scale, balled and put into the freezer.  This dough ball was also scaled to 9.5 ounces.  

I think I am going to try and use my flat beater on my Hobart on Tuesday to see how well it does mix my other Buddy’s clone doughs, since this method seemed to work for me today.  I sure have no idea how the Hobart will do with its flat beater in mixing the dough though.

The print out sheet is also included for this Buddy’s clone dough.

Both doughs were finished about 2:00 PM.

I know I am crazy, but it has been bugging me about how a real Buddy’s pizza tastes and really what one looks like.  I did call Buddy’s today and ordered a small cheese and pepperoni pizza to be shipped.  Dennis told me the Buddy’s cheese and pepperoni pizza will taste like it was freshly baked, when reheated.  Dennis took my order and told me it would cost about 50.00, including shipping for the small cheese and pepperoni pizza.  Dennis said the price could be a little more or a little less than the quoted price once it was weighed and ready to be shipped.  Buddy’s is shipping my cheese and pepperoni pizza out on Monday and I should receive it by Wednesday.  Reheating instructions will come with it.  Dennis said Buddy’s could call me with the tracking information when it is shipped, or either I could get that information by email.  I decided on the email because I might not be home when the Buddy’s pizza is shipped.  I know I won’t have any ambience or a road trip when I receive this pizza, like when I went to Mellow Mushroom, Mack’s pizza, or other pizzerias where I got to taste their pizzas and had companions, but at least I will have my curiosity satisfied.   :-D  >:D

Are there any instructions for when I received the Buddy’s cheese and pepperoni pizza?  

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 24, 2012, 04:29:49 PM


Are there any instructions for when I received the Buddy’s cheese and pepperoni pizza?  

Norma
Sit back and enjoy it with your favorite beverage...immensely!  ;D
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 24, 2012, 04:37:47 PM
I know I am crazy, but it has been bugging me about how a real Buddy’s pizza tastes and really what one looks like.  I did call Buddy’s today and ordered a small cheese and pepperoni pizza to be shipped.  Dennis told me the Buddy’s cheese and pepperoni pizza will taste like it was freshly baked, when reheated.  Dennis took my order and told me it would cost about 50.00, including shipping for the small cheese and pepperoni pizza.  Dennis said the price could be a little more or a little less than the quoted price once it was weighed and ready to be shipped.  Buddy’s is shipping my cheese and pepperoni pizza out on Monday and I should receive it by Wednesday.  Reheating instructions will come with it.  Dennis said Buddy’s could call me with the tracking information when it is shipped, or either I could get that information by email.  I decided on the email because I might not be home when the Buddy’s pizza is shipped.  I know I won’t have any ambience or a road trip when I receive this pizza, like when I went to Mellow Mushroom, Mack’s pizza, or other pizzerias where I got to taste their pizzas and had companions, but at least I will have my curiosity satisfied.   :-D  >:D

Are there any instructions for when I received the Buddy’s cheese and pepperoni pizza?  

Norma,

Do you know what form the pizza will take? For example, will it be fully baked or partially baked (such as the half-baked pizza discussed at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/HALF-BAKEDinstructions.pdf)? And will it be frozen when you receive it?  

As for other things to do, you should first weigh the pizza, whatever form it takes and preferably in grams, both before and after reheating. If you can note the number of slices of pepperoni and weigh one or two of the slices and measure their diameters, that would be good information also. I realize that counting the number of slices of pepperoni can be a problem since they are underneath the cheese, so don't worry if you find that you can't count them. I don't want you to completely dismantle the pizza and ruin your eating experience just to have that count.

For your own purposes, you might want to note the character of the crust and crumb and their flavor and also the flavor of the cheese, which I assume will be brick cheese. If you see signs of more than one type of cheese on the pizza, knowing that will be useful. If before reheating you can get a sense of the amount of sauce used on the pizza and whether it is smooth or chunky or thick or thin or anything else that might provide a clue as to a possible source (like Stanislaus), that would also be helpful. You might also note how the sauce changed after reheating. For your own purposes, you might note whether the sauce is mild or zesty and see if you can identify herbs, garlic, etc. used in the sauce.

In general, you should use all of your sensory powers and take notes as appropriate. And save any packaging materials that have information about the pizza on them.

It will help if you are sober when you conduct your tests and measurements :-D.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 24, 2012, 05:53:35 PM
Sit back and enjoy it with your favorite beverage...immensely!  ;D

Bob,

I will sit back and hopefully enjoy Buddy's pizza with one of my favorite beverages, after checking over the pizza closely.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 24, 2012, 06:11:10 PM
Norma,

Do you know what form the pizza will take? For example, will it be fully baked or partially baked (such as the half-baked pizza discussed at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/HALF-BAKEDinstructions.pdf)? And will it be frozen when you receive it?  

As for other things to do, you should first weigh the pizza, whatever form it takes and preferably in grams, both before and after reheating. If you can note the number of slices of pepperoni and weigh one or two of the slices and measure their diameters, that would be good information also. I realize that counting the number of slices of pepperoni can be a problem since they are underneath the cheese, so don't worry if you find that you can't count them. I don't want you to completely dismantle the pizza and ruin your eating experience just to have that count.

For your own purposes, you might want to note the character of the crust and crumb and their flavor and also the flavor of the cheese, which I assume will be brick cheese. If you see signs of more than one type of cheese on the pizza, knowing that will be useful. If before reheating you can get a sense of the amount of sauce used on the pizza and whether it is smooth or chunky or thick or thin or anything else that might provide a clue as to a possible source (like Stanislaus), that would also be helpful. You might also note how the sauce changed after reheating. For your own purposes, you might note whether the sauce is mild or zesty and see if you can identify herbs, garlic, etc. used in the sauce.

In general, you should use all of your sensory powers and take notes as appropriate. And save any packaging materials that have information about the pizza on them.

It will help if you are sober when you conduct your tests and measurements :-D.

Peter

Peter,

From what Dennis told me the pizza will be partially baked, then frozen, because he said I would finish baking it in my oven.  I could call Buddy’s again to make sure if it will be fully baked or partially baked though. 

Thanks for all the information about how I should weigh the pizza and try to note the number of slices of pepperoni and weigh one or two of the slices of pepperoni.  I can dig though the pizza a little to see how many slices of pepperoni I can see. 

One of the reasons I wanted to purchase a real Buddy’s pizza was to be able to note how the crust and crumb look and their flavor and also the flavor of the cheese.  I also assume the cheese will be brick cheese, but don’t know if it will be mild or aged a little.  I will look and taste for different cheeses on the Buddy’s pizza too.  I will note everything you posted about the sauce.  I will print out your directions and check each thing so I don’t forget to do anything. 

I will take as many pictures and measurements as I can and see if my Buddy’s clones are anything like a real Buddy’s pizza. 

I will make sure I am sober when I take the measurements and notes.  There is always time for a few drinks after the autopsy and the fun of tasting a real Buddy‘s pizza.  :-D I am really looking forward to trying a Buddy’s pizza, so this should be fun.

Dennis told me that Buddy’s pizza would come by FexEx ground, but I could get it overnighted, or in a day, but then the price would double, or almost triple.  I said no thanks that the price was enough for me already. 

Norma 
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 24, 2012, 08:19:39 PM

Norma,

Do you know what form the pizza will take? For example, will it be fully baked or partially baked (such as the half-baked pizza discussed at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/HALF-BAKEDinstructions.pdf)? And will it be frozen when you receive it?  

Peter



Peter,

I just called Buddy’s pizza again to check if the Buddy’s pizza I ordered will be partially baked or fully baked.  Allison answered the phone and I told her I had wanted to check on the pizza that was being sent to Pa. that I ordered.  I asked if it would it be partially baked or how it would baked.  Allison told me since the Buddy’s pizza would be shipped to Pa. the pizza would not be baked at all.  I asked again to make sure I understood if the pizza wouldn’t be baked at all and asked would I have to bake the Buddy’s pizza myself.  She said that is correct, that the pizza would just be made then frozen and then I would need to bake the pizza the whole way myself.  Did you ever hear of that before?  I thought my ears were deceiving me when I heard that the second time.  If that is the way the Buddy’s pizza is shipped to me that is all the better in my opinion.  Maybe I need another clarification. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 24, 2012, 08:40:51 PM
Norma,

I honestly haven't paid much attention to how companies process pizzas for shipment to customers. However, I think that a frozen unbaked Buddy's pizza may well be the best option for our purposes since the starting point for weighing the pizza is an unbaked pizza. However, it isn't clear how you will be instructed to bake the pizza. For example, will the pizza be baked while frozen or after being defrosted? I'm not sure how the answer to that question will affect the weight loss during baking. However, I think you should end up with a pizza that is pretty close to the real deal.

I'm sure you will be able to tell the state of the pizza once you get it. And maybe the instructions will tell you.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 24, 2012, 09:08:17 PM
Norma,

I honestly haven't paid much attention to how companies process pizzas for shipment to customers. However, I think that a frozen unbaked Buddy's pizza may well be the best option for our purposes since the starting point for weighing the pizza is an unbaked pizza. However, it isn't clear how you will be instructed to bake the pizza. For example, will the pizza be baked while frozen or after being defrosted? I'm not sure how the answer to that question will affect the weight loss during baking. However, I think you should end up with a pizza that is pretty close to the real deal.

I'm sure you will be able to tell the state of the pizza once you get it. And maybe the instructions will tell you.

Peter

Peter,

Dennis told me today I would have to bake the pizza, but I thought it would be partially par-baked.  He said it would come with instructions though, but I sure don’t know what they are.  I don’t understand how a frozen Buddy’s pizza could taste like a freshly baked Buddy’s pizza if a steel pan isn’t used at home.  I think I am going to call Buddy’s again tomorrow to see if I can find out more information about how I am supposed to bake their frozen pizza if I don’t have a steel pan and see what they say.  I only can hope the frozen Buddy’s pizza will end up with a pizza that is pretty close to the real deal.  Dennis told me the Buddy’s pizza will be shipped in dry ice, so I would believe it would stay frozen.  I would think the Buddy’s frozen pizza would have to be defrosted to bake it.

If the Buddy’s pizza is a frozen unbaked pizza I also think that might be our best option since the starting point for weighing the pizza is an unbaked one like you posted. 

I will post if I find out anymore information tomorrow.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 24, 2012, 09:29:55 PM
Norma,

Knowing that the Detroit Pizza Style Pizza Co sells mail order pizzas, I went to their website where I found the instructions that they send to mail order customers, at http://detroitstylepizza.co/mailorderpizza/. It appears that the pizzas can be baked either in the defrosted state or the frozen state. It also looks like the sauce is kept in a small container separate from the rest of the pizza. It would be nice if Buddy's does that also.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 24, 2012, 10:09:27 PM
Norma,

Knowing that the Detroit Pizza Style Pizza Co sells mail order pizzas, I went to their website where I found the instructions that they send to mail order customers, at http://detroitstylepizza.co/mailorderpizza/. It appears that the pizzas can be baked either in the defrosted state or the frozen state. It also looks like the sauce is kept in a small container separate from the rest of the pizza. It would be nice if Buddy's does that also.

Peter

Peter,

I didn’t know Detroit Style Pizza Co sells mail order pizzas also.  They sure are a lot cheaper than Buddy’s mail order pizzas.  I see it appears that the pizzas can be baked either in the defrosted state or the frozen state.  Maybe I can ask Buddy’s if the sauce comes separate, or if I can get it that way.  I wish Buddy’s frozen pizza would come all separated and then I could assemble it and weight each ingredient.  That sure would be convenient, but sure don’t think that will happen.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 25, 2012, 08:12:04 AM
Norma,

I didn’t know Detroit Style Pizza Co sells mail order pizzas also.  They sure are a lot cheaper than Buddy’s mail order pizzas.
That may well be true. But, according to http://detroitstylepizza.co/mailorderpizza/, the Detroit Style Pizza Co's pizzas are cut into six slices, whereas the Buddy's pizzas are cut into four slices. Do you think that you can handle eating six slices?

Maybe I can ask Buddy’s if the sauce comes separate, or if I can get it that way.
That is a good idea. If they can't do it that way maybe you can ask them if they can give you some extra sauce on the side, maybe in the same amount as they regularly put on their pizzas so that you can dip the parts of their pizza not covered by sauce into the extra sauce. Or you can tell them that you will be eating their pizza with your great granddaughter and she really, really loves extra sauce to dip her pizza into. Only a cruel-hearted person could turn down such a request.

BTW, I noticed that the Detroit Pizza Style Co mail order pizzas are 7" x 9". Apparently there is an inch lost through shrinkage during baking in the 8" x 10" pans. Also, that company uses both mozzarella and brick cheese for their pizzas, and not Jack cheese as has been reported in some reviews.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 25, 2012, 09:11:02 AM
Norma,
That may well be true. But, according to http://detroitstylepizza.co/mailorderpizza/, the Detroit Style Pizza Co's pizzas are cut into six slices, whereas the Buddy's pizzas are cut into four slices. Do you think that you can handle eating six slices?
That is a good idea. If they can't do it that way maybe you can ask them if they can give you some extra sauce on the side, maybe in the same amount as they regularly put on their pizzas so that you can dip the parts of their pizza not covered by sauce into the extra sauce. Or you can tell them that you will be eating their pizza with your great granddaughter and she really, really loves extra sauce to dip her pizza into. Only a cruel-hearted person could turn down such a request.

BTW, I noticed that the Detroit Pizza Style Co mail order pizzas are 7" x 9". Apparently there is an inch lost through shrinkage during baking in the 8" x 10" pans. Also, that company uses both mozzarella and brick cheese for their pizzas, and not Jack cheese as has been reported in some reviews.

Peter


Peter,

There is no way I could even eat a small whole Buddy’s 4-square at one time.  I can reheat slices though.  When I went on pizza tours before, the slices of pizza were spread out during the course of a day and I can handle a lot of pizza that way, but not all at once.  I think from all these experiments and trying to make a Buddy’s clone with all the cheese, or cheese blends and all the grease or oil that is used in the pans, either my cholesterol is going to go up, or I will become fatter.  After I get consistent results, I have to cut back on eating Detroit-style pizzas, even if I really like them.

I didn’t think about asking for extra sauce in the ways that you posted, but they great ideas and can use either of your ideas.  I don’t think the Buddy’s location I need to call opens until 12:00-1:00 PM today.   

I also noticed that the Detroit Pizza Style Co mail order pizza are 7”x9”, but didn’t think about the weight loss.  I just wondered what kind of steel pans they were baking in.  I didn’t notice they use both mozzarella and brick cheese on their pizzas. 

I saw on Buddy’s website than someone can join their email club for coupons and I think the first coupon is for 5.00.  I signed-up just in case I could use a coupon, but really don’t think it will apply to the pizza I just purchased. http://www.buddyspizza.com/   I received a fast reply though for joining their email club.

I don’t think this blogger article was posted before, but could be wrong. In this recent article from a blogger she explains about Buddy’s cheese and says it is powerful, but in a good way.  That sure doesn’t sound like the brick cheese I used.

http://dallasduo.blogspot.com/2012/11/friday-night-pizza-michigan-style.html 

I see three stripes on this large pizza and a dark crust on the edges.  The top cheese look pretty well done too. 

I saw in the instructions for the Half Baked Buddy’s pizzas that it says that if the top cheese wants to get too brown to use aluminum foil.  Maybe that is an option for Craig, if he wants darker sides and the cheese not to brown as much on the top. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 25, 2012, 10:02:24 AM
I saw in the instructions for the Half Baked Buddy’s pizzas that it says that if the top cheese wants to get too brown to use aluminum foil.  Maybe that is an option for Craig, if he wants darker sides and the cheese not to brown as much on the top.  

Thank you for the idea, however that is an option I would really like to avoid. Seems kind of like cheating. I know it can be done without it.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 25, 2012, 10:17:28 AM
Thank you for the idea, however that is an option I would really like to avoid. Seems kind of like cheating. I know it can be done without it.

Craig,

I know the putting foil on is really like cheating.  I know you will get it all figured out.   ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 25, 2012, 10:19:05 AM
The first two pictures are of how the Buddy’s clone dough ball is fermenting until a little while ago that I used 0.20% IDY in the formulation.  I am not sure how it will do until Tuesday.  The third picture is of the Buddy’s clone dough ball that use 1% IDY in the formulation and was frozen right away.  As can be seen it didn’t ferment at all.  I had problems with trying to keep the measuring tape in one place with my one hand while trying to take the picture with my other hand.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 25, 2012, 10:47:13 AM
Norma,

The first two pictures are of how the Buddy’s clone dough ball is fermenting until a little while ago that I used 0.20% IDY in the formulation.  I am not sure how it will do until Tuesday.

The spacing of the two poppy seeds for your Tuesday Buddy's clone dough suggests an increase in the volume of the dough ball of about 31%.

Peter

Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 25, 2012, 11:33:51 AM
Thank you for the idea, however that is an option I would really like to avoid. Seems kind of like cheating. I know it can be done without it.
I don't know if this applies to the type of pizza you're making here but the "hard coat anodized pans" I use for DD and Chi-thin pizzas from American Metal Craft definitly cook edges hotter. I have cooked pies in them where I purposely did not create a "lip/raised edge" so that I could fry the cheese like a Burt's or Pequods. Works perfectly. Believe they offer square pans as well.

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/15141/hard-coat-anodized-deep-dish-pizza-pans.html
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 25, 2012, 02:27:12 PM
Norma,

The spacing of the two poppy seeds for your Tuesday Buddy's clone dough suggests an increase in the volume of the dough ball of about 31%.

Peter



Peter,

Thanks for telling me that the spacing of the two poppy seeds today suggest an increase in the volume of the dough ball of about 31%.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 25, 2012, 02:36:49 PM
I don't know if this applies to the type of pizza you're making here but the "hard coat anodized pans" I use for DD and Chi-thin pizzas from American Metal Craft definitly cook edges hotter. I have cooked pies in them where I purposely did not create a "lip/raised edge" so that I could fry the cheese like a Burt's or Pequods. Works perfectly. Believe they offer square pans as well.

http://www.webstaurantstore.com/15141/hard-coat-anodized-deep-dish-pizza-pans.html

Bob,

Thanks for posting about the “hard coat anodized pans” you use for DD and Chi-thin pizzas.  I think my blackbuster steel pan is something like that, but I am not sure.  That is the steel pan I use for making Greek-style pizzas. 

I really want to be as authentic as I can in making Detroit-style pizzas and since they are made in the auto parts steel pans, will have to experiment with them more.  So far I have had decent results with the “square” steel pans, but as always there are more experiments and improvements to do.  I know I could purchase the blackbuster steel pans at Bova, but they sure are expensive.  They do come in rectangular sizes at Bova.  I am not sure of what the differences are between blackbuster steel pans and hard coat anodized pans though.

Norma 
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 25, 2012, 02:39:04 PM
Peter,

I called Buddy’s a little while ago and spoke with Kristen this time.  I wanted clarification if my Buddy’s cheese and pepperoni pizza is going to be just a frozen pizza or half-baked pizza and then frozen.  Kristen told me the pizza will be half-baked then frozen.  I really don’t think Allison knew what she was talking about yesterday.  At least I think that part is settled now.  I asked Kristen if I need a special pan to bake the pizza in and she said instructions will come with the Buddy’s pizza.  I then told Kristen my great granddaughter would be eating the pizza with me and she likes to dip her pieces of pizza in extra sauce.  I asked if there was anyway I could get extra sauce shipped with my pizza.  Kristen must have gotten a manager, or an assistant manager and I told her the same story and asked if I could get an extra container of sauce (the same amount they put on a Buddy’s pizza) so my great granddaughter could dip her pieces of pizza in their sauce.  Whoever I talked to said yes they would send me an extra container of sauce.  Your “line” seemed like it worked.  ;)

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 25, 2012, 04:47:35 PM
I really want to be as authentic as I can in making Detroit-style pizzas and since they are made in the auto parts steel pans, will have to experiment with them more.  So far I have had decent results with the “square” steel pans, but as always there are more experiments and improvements to do.  I know I could purchase the blackbuster steel pans at Bova, but they sure are expensive.  They do come in rectangular sizes at Bova.  I am not sure of what the differences are between blackbuster steel pans and hard coat anodized pans though.

Norma,

The closest pans that I am aware of to the Detroit style steel pans, with or without bluing, are the dark anodized pre-seasoned aluminum Detroit style pans sold by Lloyd Pans. As noted at http://www.lloydpans.com/standard-pans/pizza-tools/rectangular-pans-and-disks/detroit-style-deep-dish, the Lloyd Detroit style pans are of the standard 8" x 10" and 10" x 14" sizes but they are only 2" deep. That might pose a problem in cross stacking the pans if the dough in the pans rises above 2". A major disadvantage of the Lloyd Detroit style pans is that they are very expensive, about three times the cost of the steel pans that just about all of the major players use to make Detroit style pizzas, not only in the Metro Detroit area but elsewhere around the country.

In my research, I looked for signs that pizza operators were using the Lloyd Detroit style pans. I could not find a single example. No doubt someone somewhere is using the Lloyd Detroit style pans, and I am sure that they are of high quality, but it seems that the standard is the Detroit style steel pans that have been in use for years. Lloyd, and its sister company Pizzatools, is a very opportunistic company when it comes to reacting to market trends but it may have a hard time convincing pizza operators to use their pans so long as the cheaper steel pans are available.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 25, 2012, 05:11:33 PM
I called Buddy’s a little while ago and spoke with Kristen this time.  I wanted clarification if my Buddy’s cheese and pepperoni pizza is going to be just a frozen pizza or half-baked pizza and then frozen.  Kristen told me the pizza will be half-baked then frozen.  I really don’t think Allison knew what she was talking about yesterday.

Norma,

I agree with you that Kristen most likely has it right. If you think about it, how would you bake a defrosted unbaked pizza in free form on something like a cookie sheet and have it retain its shape? With partial baking, the pizza should be "set" and therefore retain its shape but it won't rise any more during baking. The downside of the half-baked pizza is that the "before" and "after" weights may not tell us as much as we might have gotten with an unbaked frozen version. That notwithstanding, hopefully you will be able to enjoy the pizza and compare it with your own efforts. And, no doubt, you will learn a lot about their pizza.

I hope they don't forget the extra sauce. If they send the extra sauce, that will give us a pretty good idea as to the amount of sauce that is used on the Buddy's 4-square pizzas. It's possible that that sample is what is used in the process of creating the Buddy's Nutrition information. It might also be what they provide with their half-baked pizzas that they sell to their customers. Otherwise, the sauce sitting on top of the pizza might stick to the wrapping materials and make a mess.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 25, 2012, 05:54:04 PM
Norma,

The closest pans that I am aware of to the Detroit style steel pans, with or without bluing, are the dark anodized pre-seasoned aluminum Detroit style pans sold by Lloyd Pans. As noted at http://www.lloydpans.com/standard-pans/pizza-tools/rectangular-pans-and-disks/detroit-style-deep-dish, the Lloyd Detroit style pans are of the standard 8" x 10" and 10" x 14" sizes but they are only 2" deep. That might pose a problem in cross stacking the pans if the dough in the pans rises above 2". A major disadvantage of the Lloyd Detroit style pans is that they are very expensive, about three times the cost of the steel pans that just about all of the major players use to make Detroit style pizzas, not only in the Metro Detroit area but elsewhere around the country.

In my research, I looked for signs that pizza operators were using the Lloyd Detroit style pans. I could not find a single example. No doubt someone somewhere is using the Lloyd Detroit style pans, and I am sure that they are of high quality, but it seems that the standard is the Detroit style steel pans that have been in use for years. Lloyd, and its sister company Pizzatools, is a very opportunistic company when it comes to reacting to market trends but it may have a hard time convincing pizza operators to use their pans so long as the cheaper steel pans are available.

Peter

Peter,

I didn’t really look at the dark anodized pre-seasoned aluminum Detroit style pans sold by Lloyd Pans and really didn’t see how expensive they were, but know the black buster steel pan at Bova are very expensive.  I really don’t recall how much I paid for my one black buster steel pan, but think in was in the twenty something dollar range.  I know the black buster steel pans at Bova don’t have really high edges either like the Detroit-style steel pans I purchased.  I could maybe see a problem with the Lloyd Detroit style pans with cross stacking too if the dough in the pans rises above 2”.

I can understand that Lloyd Pans, its sister company Pizzatools, or any other company that makes those kind of pans would have a hard time convincing pizza operators that want to try and make Detroit-style pizzas to try their pans.  It would be too expensive when the auto parts steel pans work well in making a Detroit-style pizza.  I for one, not knowing how Detroit-style pizzas will sell at market would not want to go to that expense and then not be able to sell that style of pizzas.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 25, 2012, 06:04:19 PM
Norma,

I agree with you that Kristen most likely has it right. If you think about it, how would you bake a defrosted unbaked pizza in free form on something like a cookie sheet and have it retain its shape? With partial baking, the pizza should be "set" and therefore retain its shape but it won't rise any more during baking. The downside of the half-baked pizza is that the "before" and "after" weights may not tell us as much as we might have gotten with an unbaked frozen version. That notwithstanding, hopefully you will be able to enjoy the pizza and compare it with your own efforts. And, no doubt, you will learn a lot about their pizza.

I hope they don't forget the extra sauce. If they send the extra sauce, that will give us a pretty good idea as to the amount of sauce that is used on the Buddy's 4-square pizzas. It's possible that that sample is what is used in the process of creating the Buddy's Nutrition information. It might also be what they provide with their half-baked pizzas that they sell to their customers. Otherwise, the sauce sitting on top of the pizza might stick to the wrapping materials and make a mess.

Peter

Peter,

After I spoke with Allison yesterday I also thought it over and then had many questions, on how the pizza would bake without anyone having a steel pan, how the edges might brown, or how it would retain it shape.  I am glad you think Kristen had it right this time. 

I understand that a half-baked Buddy’s pizza probably won’t tell us much since it will be half-baked.  I at least hope to learn some about Buddy’s pizza from the half-baked pizza I will be receiving.

I hope Buddy’s doesn’t forget the sauce either.  I would think the sauce would be the same as what Buddy’s uses on their two sizes of pizza, but will have to wait and see what happens.  I should get an email tomorrow when the Buddy’s pepperoni and cheese pizza is shipped.  I will also send another email to them asking them if they remembered the extra sauce.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 25, 2012, 06:27:56 PM
I can understand that Lloyd Pans, its sister company Pizzatools, or any other company that makes those kind of pans would have a hard time convincing pizza operators that want to try and make Detroit-style pizzas to try their pans.

Norma,

Lloyd says that its Detroit style pans bake faster than steel pans. However, that may require adjusting the bake temperatures and times to achieve the same results that one will get using the thinner steel pans, including getting the degree of caramelization of the cheese as Craig discussed. Also, if you read this interesting Slice article at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/09/behind-the-slice-klausies-pizza-truck.html, you will see that the fellow (Mike Stenke) who started Klausie's Pizza in Raleigh, NC said the he tried the aluminum pans and found them wanting. However, he may have been talking about raw aluminum pans, not dark anodized ones. I think you will also find other parts of the article of interest, including the challenge of finding good brick cheese outside of the Midwest. You will also note the Bakers Pride oven. And, like you, he was using Buddy's as his model and inspiration.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 25, 2012, 07:28:22 PM
Well, what a small world....I see Klausie's truck around town all the time. I know that he's become very popular in just a short period of time....think maybe it's about time for me to give him a try so I'll then know what these great looking pizzas you are making here actually taste like.... :chef:
Bob
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 25, 2012, 10:42:09 PM
Norma,

Lloyd says that its Detroit style pans bake faster than steel pans. However, that may require adjusting the bake temperatures and times to achieve the same results that one will get using the thinner steel pans, including getting the degree of caramelization of the cheese as Craig discussed. Also, if you read this interesting Slice article at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/09/behind-the-slice-klausies-pizza-truck.html, you will see that the fellow (Mike Stenke) who started Klausie's Pizza in Raleigh, NC said the he tried the aluminum pans and found them wanting. However, he may have been talking about raw aluminum pans, not dark anodized ones. I think you will also find other parts of the article of interest, including the challenge of finding good brick cheese outside of the Midwest. You will also note the Bakers Pride oven. And, like you, he was using Buddy's as his model and inspiration.

Peter

Peter,

I wonder if anyone here on the forum has reported that Lloyd’s Detroit style pans bake faster than other steel pans.  I don’t even think I ever timed any of the bakes of any of the Greek-style pizza I have made in my black buster steel pan, or Steve’s black buster steel pans.  That might be something I might do someday.  I didn’t seem to have any problems with the first pie in this thread and did bake that pizza in the black buster steel pan and even baked it on the bottom deck of my gas oven.  It now makes me wonder if thicker steel pans are better than the auto parts steel pans.

You and other members might laugh, but I did mention to Steve that I might want to purchase a truck something like Mike’s truck and take it traveling if I can ever make a decent Detroit-style pizza.  I guess I will never get that part out of me.  I could even have it parked outside of Root’s in the warmer month because it is much busier outside then in my part of the market.  You just never know what I might decide to do.

I also wonder if the pans Mike uses are really stainless steel pans, or might he mean just steel pans as the article you linked to on Slice.  They look like regular auto parts pans to me.  Whatever kind of steel pans Mike is using at least old and well seasoned.  I see Mike does use lids on some of his pans.  I didn’t know that before. 

I wonder where Mike found his brick cheese if it was from dairies up north.  I did contact Widmer cheese later last week to see if their brick cheese is available in my area, but didn’t get any answers yet (probably because of the holidays).  Mike saying he got sample blocks of this dairy’s brick and that dairy’s brick has me wondering more about the different tastes brick cheese might have, or where they can be found.  I haven’t figured out how the brick cheese should taste, or melt, but saw the brick cheese does have a high fat level.   

I also find Mike’s quest to find the right sauce interesting.   Mike’s Baker’s Pride oven looks a lot like mine does too.  I toughly enjoyed reading that article from Slice and liked how Mike had determination in trying to make the style of Detroit pizza his wanted to.

Thanks for the link to the article on Slice about Klausie’s Pizza in Raleigh, NC.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 25, 2012, 10:43:25 PM
Well, what a small world....I see Klausie's truck around town all the time. I know that he's become very popular in just a short period of time....think maybe it's about time for me to give him a try so I'll then know what these great looking pizzas you are making here actually taste like.... :chef:
Bob

Bob,

That sounds like a great idea for you to purchase some of Mike's Detroit style pizzas to see what you think.   ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 25, 2012, 10:51:09 PM
Bob,

That sounds like a great idea for you to purchase some of Mike's Detroit style pizzas to see what you think.   ;D

Norma
Exactly what I was thinking...let me know if you need me to reconnaissance anything in particular for ya'll  Norma.  :chef:
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 25, 2012, 10:57:58 PM
Exactly what I was thinking...let me know if you need me to reconnaissance anything in particular for ya'll  Norma.  :chef:

Bob,

As you know any clues are helpful, especially the cheese or sauce.

Thanks!  ;)

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 25, 2012, 11:28:15 PM
Bob,

As you know any clues are helpful, especially the cheese or sauce.

Thanks!  ;)

Norma
Yes, the cheese was the first object to come to mind. After reading Peter's link to Klausie's (Mike's) truck, I found it very interesting how he was/is able to go through multiple distributor's to get the Wisc. cheese he desires down here in NC. It made me wonder if I could see whether one of his dists. possibly might turn out to be one that you could be able to link with....we'll see, Norma, I'll keep you posted with what all I find out with Klausie's truck.  ;)

Bob
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 26, 2012, 06:29:37 AM
Norma,

The pans that Klausie's is using seem to be the old blue steel pans. I sometimes read articles that say the pans are cast iron pans so I trust my own eyes rather than what a writer says in an article.

I also sometimes read about twice baking. Interestingly, Klausie's uses thrice baking. See the article at http://www.newraleigh.com/articles/archive/step-into-the-van-with-klausies-pizza/. Note, also, the continuing problem with getting good brick cheese.

You should also check out the article at http://anotherdayinparadisewithdaveandlisa.blogspot.com/2012/01/pie-like-no-other-klausies-pizza.html.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 26, 2012, 08:42:37 AM
Yes, the cheese was the first object to come to mind. After reading Peter's link to Klausie's (Mike's) truck, I found it very interesting how he was/is able to go through multiple distributor's to get the Wisc. cheese he desires down here in NC. It made me wonder if I could see whether one of his dists. possibly might turn out to be one that you could be able to link with....we'll see, Norma, I'll keep you posted with what all I find out with Klausie's truck.  ;)

Bob

Bob,

I have a big list with links about what companies produce brick cheese here in the US saved in my documents, but haven’t had time to go though them yet.  Almost of them are dairies in Wisconsin though.  I wonder what Mike meant by saying he had samples from dairies in the North.  Most of the dairies are small companies though in my list, so I don’t know about them distributing their brick cheeses all over the country.  As I found out with Great Lakes brick cheese they do distribute to Schiffs in Scranton, Pa., but that is 2 hrs away from me.  I am waiting for an email reply from Widmer cheese.  I think they are a big producer of brick cheese.  Also how much brick cheese is aged changes the flavor profile of the brick cheese.  Maybe I will get a better handle on how Buddy’s cheese tastes after I get my pizza from Buddy’s. 

Buddy’s pizzas looks very similar to what steel_baker’s Victory Pig Style Pizza do.  One of his Victory Pig clones are at Reply 35 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13048.msg160489.html#msg160489   steel_baker’s Victory Pig clone dough has oil and sugar in the formulation though, which I know Buddy’s doesn’t.  I find it interesting how steel_bakers’ Victory Pig pizzas look so similar to what a Buddy’s pizza does.  I made two attempts at a Victory Pig pizza on steel_baker’s thread.  Brick cheese isn’t used on steel_baker’s Victory Pig clone Pizza though.

Another pizza that might use brick cheese is Old Forge Pizza.  big lover reported on the Old Forge, Pa. thread that brick cheese is used as the cheese at Reply 52 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1082.msg55100.html#msg55100  The Old Forge pizza made in a pan sure doesn’t look like a Buddy’s pizza though.

Victory Pig and Old Forge are near the Scranton area.

If you get to try Klausie’s Detroit-style pizza please try to note the taste of the cheese.  Is it mild, does it taste like cheddar or something else. Thanks!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 26, 2012, 09:10:09 AM
Norma,

The pans that Klausie's is using seem to be the old blue steel pans. I sometimes read articles that say the pans are cast iron pans so I trust my own eyes rather than what a writer says in an article.

I also sometimes read about twice baking. Interestingly, Klausie's uses thrice baking. See the article at http://www.newraleigh.com/articles/archive/step-into-the-van-with-klausies-pizza/. Note, also, the continuing problem with getting good brick cheese.

You should also check out the article at http://anotherdayinparadisewithdaveandlisa.blogspot.com/2012/01/pie-like-no-other-klausies-pizza.html.

Peter


Peter,

I agree, I also trust my own eyes other than what is posted about those blue steel pans of Mike’s.

That article you reference and the triple bake, double proof is interesting.  Mike said the dough is allowed to proof once, then again in an oiled steel pan.  It sounds like Mike first par-bakes the crust by what he said.   “Mike cuts the cheese into cubes and tops the panbaked crust with them”  I guess there are more than one way to skin a cat in making Detroit-style pizzas as Mike has shown.

I see Mike also has problems with getting the brick cheese and he even says there is a slight sharpness depending on the age of the brick cheese.  My Eddie’s brick cheese from Mandi cheese is not sharp at all.  I see he also has to use other cheeses at times.  I know my AMPI mild cheddar blend and two mozzarellas isn’t too far off from what Eddie’s brick cheese tastes like.  After I get my Buddy’s pizza maybe I can determine if maybe a stronger cheddar is needed if I can’t locate brick cheese in my area.  My blend at least oils off and browns decently on the edges of the crust.

I also noted in the Klausie’s Detroit-style article from your first link that Mike says the sauce is added on top of the melted cheese at the very end.  That is a departure from a Buddy’s pizza in my opinion.

In the second article you referenced it said that butter is used to brush the crusts.  I wonder why that is needed, unless it is needed to moisten up the par-baked crust.  Mike’s whole process sounds like a lot of work to me, even though his Detroit-style pizzas look really good.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 26, 2012, 10:13:57 AM
The weathermen are reporting that old man winter is supposed to be rearing his head in our area tonight.  They really aren’t calling for a lot of snow (1-2“), but it might make roads slippery tomorrow morning.  There is a 60% chance that it will snow during the night and might keep up during the morning hours and might even change to some rain later.  If there is snow, usually not many people come to market.  I am going to market to make my regular NY style dough today and do other things I need to do, but am not sure if I am going to make some more clone Buddy’s doughs to try tomorrow. 

This is how the one Buddy’s clone dough ball is fermenting in my refrigerator a few minutes ago.  It doesn’t look like it fermented much from yesterday when I took the pictures.

I am going to let the two Buddy’s clone doughs at home, until I see what happens tomorrow morning.  I will bring a small steel pan home incase I don’t go to market tomorrow. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 26, 2012, 11:06:24 AM
Norma,

I was most interested in Mike's comments on the importance of the type of cheese for the Detroit style pizza. I have to believe that with all of the testing and experimenting he did with cheeses that his comments have some validity. So, with that in mind, I revisited what I believe we know about the types of cheeses used by the various purveyors of the Detroit style pizza.

Starting with Klausie's, I think it is fair to say that they use brick cheese to the extent it is available to them. Buddy's uses brick cheese. Shield's is reported to use brick cheese. Loui's uses two cheeses on its pizzas, but mozzarella cheese is not one of them. Other than that, we do not know what the two cheeses are although I am guessing that brick cheese may be one of them since Louis Tourtois worked for years at Buddy's and Shield's, and brick cheese is readily available to him (and now his son). The Detroit Pizza Style Co uses mozzarella cheese and brick cheese but it is not clear whether the two cheeses are blended. It could be that the brick cheese is placed around the sides of the pans, to become nicely caramelized during baking, and the mozzarella cheese is used for the rest of the pizza. However, I have read that the cheeses are shredded. Brown Dog Pizza in Telluride, CO uses whole milk mozzarella cheese (I believe it is Grande) and aged white cheddar cheese but, again, we don't know if the cheeses are blended or added separately. Jet's uses Grande low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese although it should be noted that Jet's does not call their square pizza "Detroit style". That may be intentional since they are expanding nationwide and do not wish to be viewed as strictly a Detroit style pizza operator. We do not know what cheese or cheese blend Via 313 uses.

With the above as background, I think it is safe to say that brick cheese is a good choice if one wants to get good caramelization of the cheese. Looking at pizzas made using only mozzarella cheese, such as the Jet's pizza shown at Reply 70 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg135948.html#msg135948, I see that the sides are browned but I don't see that vertical dam of caramelized cheese that seems to characterize the basic Detroit style pizzas made by Buddy's, Shield's, Loui's, and Cloverleaf/Detroit Pizza Style Co, at least as exemplified by the photos shown at http://www.lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=35487. Likewise for the Klausie's Detroit style pizza. Several of the Brown Dog Detroit style pizzas I have seen also exhibit that vertical dam of caramelized cheese, so maybe the white cheddar cheese contributes to that effect. Looking at the Via 313 photos at http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/via-313-pizza-austin?select=quBst2A8N8Sx8gMCl7E7Jg#571KK5bmUn7n9fZZAva86g, some but not all of their pizzas exhibit that effect to one degree or another. I am guessing that one of their cheeses may be brick cheese or maybe a white cheddar cheese. Or maybe I am simply reading too much into all of this and that any cheese if forced along the sides of the pan will caramelize in a dam-like way.

Mike cuts the cheese into cubes and tops the panbaked crust with them
I believe the author of the article meant to say "diced". It would seem impractical to cut the brick cheese into cubes, presumably by hand. As noted in the photo at http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Mf788bNv6xv/340x.jpg, Buddy's, which was the inspiration of Mike at Klausie's, looks to use a diced cheese.

In the second article you referenced it said that butter is used to brush the crusts.  I wonder why that is needed, unless it is needed to moisten up the par-baked crust.
I first saw reference to the use of butter and also a twice bake in a comment by a poster at http://www.urbanspoon.com/r/25/1587230/restaurant/Inside-the-Beltline/Klausies-Pizza-food-truck-Raleigh. I thought that perhaps the commenter was just paraphrasing what wikipedia says about the Detroit style pizza at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit-style_pizza, to wit, The crust of a Detroit-style pizza is noteworthy because in addition to occasionally being twice-baked, it is usually baked in a well-oiled pan to a chewy medium-well-done state that gives the bottom and edges of the crust a fried/crunchy texture. Some parlors will apply melted butter with a soft brush prior to baking. In Klausie's case, it looks like both statements apply but with the butter added after baking rather than before. Like you, I suspect the butter helps soften the crust somewhat but also to give more flavor to the crust (the often sought after "buttery" crust).

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 26, 2012, 12:02:53 PM
Peter, Norma,

From what little I know about brick, it appears the characteristics can vary quite widely - much more so than most cheeses. I understand that some is washed rind/ripened, and some isn't - this in and of itself suggests there are very different brick cheeses out there; and some is sold very young and some is aged. It sounds like brick cheese can be similar to cheeses ranging from mozerella to Limburger.

I'm not sure how much value there is in knowing that someone uses brick cheese if you don't know what brick cheese.

Just a thought.

Craig
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 26, 2012, 12:17:48 PM
Norma,

I was most interested in Mike's comments on the importance of the type of cheese for the Detroit style pizza. I have to believe that with all of the testing and experimenting he did with cheeses that his comments have some validity. So, with that in mind, I revisited what I believe we know about the types of cheeses used by the various purveyors of the Detroit style pizza.

Starting with Klausie's, I think it is fair to say that they use brick cheese to the extent it is available to them. Buddy's uses brick cheese. Shield's is reported to use brick cheese. Loui's uses two cheeses on its pizzas, but mozzarella cheese is not one of them. Other than that, we do not know what the two cheeses are although I am guessing that brick cheese may be one of them since Louis Tourtois worked for years at Buddy's and Shield's, and brick cheese is readily available to him (and now his son). The Detroit Pizza Style Co uses mozzarella cheese and brick cheese but it is not clear whether the two cheeses are blended. It could be that the brick cheese is placed around the sides of the pans, to become nicely caramelized during baking, and the mozzarella cheese is used for the rest of the pizza. Brown Dog Pizza in Telluride, CO uses whole milk mozzarella cheese (I believe it is Grande) and aged white cheddar cheese but, again, we don't know if the cheeses are blended or added separately. Jet's uses Grande low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese although it should be noted that Jet's does not call their square pizza "Detroit style". That may be intentional since they are expanding nationwide and do not wish to be viewed as strictly a Detroit style pizza operator. We do not know what cheese or cheese blend Via 313 uses.

With the above as background, I think it is safe to say that brick cheese is a good choice if one wants to get good caramelization of the cheese. Looking at pizzas made using only mozzarella cheese, such as the Jet's pizza shown at Reply 70 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg135948.html#msg135948, I see that the sides are browned but I don't see that vertical dam of caramelized cheese that seems to characterize the basic Detroit style pizzas made by Buddy's, Shield's, Loui's, and Cloverleaf/Detroit Pizza Style Co, at least as exemplified by the photos shown at http://www.lthforum.com/bb/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=35487. Likewise for the Klausie's Detroit style pizza. Several of the Blue Dog Detroit style pizzas I have seen also exhibit that vertical dam of caramelized cheese, so maybe the white cheddar cheese contributes to that effect. Looking at the Via 313 photos at http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/via-313-pizza-austin?select=quBst2A8N8Sx8gMCl7E7Jg#571KK5bmUn7n9fZZAva86g, some but not all of their pizzas exhibit that effect to one degree or another. I am guessing that one of their cheeses may be brick cheese or maybe a white cheddar cheese. Or maybe I am simply reading too much into all of this and that any cheese if forced along the sides of the pan will caramelize in a dam-like way.
I believe the author of the article meant to say "diced". It would seem impractical to cut the brick cheese into cubes, presumably by hand. As noted in the photo at http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/08Mf788bNv6xv/340x.jpg, Buddy's, which was the inspiration of Mike at Klausie's, looks to use a diced cheese.
I first saw reference to the use of butter and also a twice bake in a comment by a poster at http://www.urbanspoon.com/r/25/1587230/restaurant/Inside-the-Beltline/Klausies-Pizza-food-truck-Raleigh. I thought that perhaps the commenter was just paraphrasing what wikipedia says about the Detroit style pizza at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit-style_pizza, to wit, The crust of a Detroit-style pizza is noteworthy because in addition to occasionally being twice-baked, it is usually baked in a well-oiled pan to a chewy medium-well-done state that gives the bottom and edges of the crust a fried/crunchy texture. Some parlors will apply melted butter with a soft brush prior to baking. In Klausie's case, it looks like both statements apply but with the butter added after baking rather than before. Like you, I suspect the butter helps soften the crust somewhat but also to give more flavor to the crust (the often sought after "buttery" crust).

Peter


Peter,

I like your summary of what Detroit-style pizzerias that use brick cheese, or a combination of brick and another cheese.  I am interested in Mike’s comments too on the importance of the type of cheese Detroit style pizza use.  To get that dammed up caramelization of cheeses really isn’t that hard in my opinion if you look though the Greek-style pizza thread.  I never tried to make a Greek-style pizza in a 8”x10” pan, but might have to try that sometime to see if the caramelization of the cheese still happens.  I know Steve and I have used many blends of cheeses on the Greek-style thread and it didn’t appear to me that there were problems with caramelization of the cheeses.  It just seems to me that you need cheddar on the edges to get that caramelization.  At Steve’s post on the Greek-style thread you can see Steve did get good caramelization of the medium white cheddar on his pizza at Reply 125  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg124557.html#msg124557  I recall that pizza and it was very tasty.  I even tried a Greek style pie that was not even made in my black buster steel pan at home and also got good caramelization.  I can’t recall what cheese/or cheese blend I used on that pizza at Reply 143 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg125069.html#msg125069 but many combinations seem to work.  Now as for the brick taste I am not sure of that.  I have to wait until I taste the Buddy’s pizza.

I agree that the author meant to say diced, like Buddy’s pizza in the article about Mike’s Detroit-style pizzas.

As for butter on the par-bake crust after it is baked, I always put a garlic herb, oil, margarine blend on my Greek-style pizza and all that seems to do is the crust a better flavor.  I haven’t tried that by par-baking the crust first though.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 26, 2012, 12:22:52 PM
Peter, Norma,

From what little I know about brick, it appears the characteristics can vary quite widely - much more so than most cheeses. I understand that some is washed rind/ripened, and some isn't - this in and of itself suggests there are very different brick cheeses out there; and some is sold very young and some is aged. It sounds like brick cheese can be similar to cheeses ranging from mozerella to Limburger.

I'm not sure how much value there is in knowing that someone uses brick cheese if you don't know what brick cheese.

Just a thought.

Craig

Craig,

I also agree with you that brick cheese can take on many flavors and can be mild and some strong tasting.  Brick can be very similar to cheddar in my opinion.  I have tried so many cheddars on the boardwalk thread and know that some can be very mild and some can be potent in flavor.  That is one reason I had so many problems with the cheese in that thread.

Can you tell me what Via 313’s cheese tastes like to you?  Was it mild, or did it taste stronger?

Norma

Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 26, 2012, 12:26:48 PM
This is the email I received from Buddy’s 22 minutes ago.  It gave me the tracking number.

Your shipment total is $47.41.  If there is any problems call us.

Thanks you Dennis

I did send an email right back asking if they remembered to include the extra sauce.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 26, 2012, 12:45:35 PM
Craig,

I also agree with you that brick cheese can take on many flavors and can be mild and some strong tasting.  Brick can be very similar to cheddar in my opinion.  I have tried so many cheddars on the boardwalk thread and know that some can be very mild and some can be potent in flavor.  That is one reason I had so many problems with the cheese in that thread.

Can you tell me what Via 313’s cheese tastes like to you?  Was it mild, or did it taste stronger?

Norma.



My guess is that it is cheddar on the edge and mozzerella in the middle. Maybe some cheddar in the mozzerella. It was not too strong.

CL
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 26, 2012, 12:57:28 PM
Out of curiosity, I called one of the Central Markets in Austin and also the one in Houston and spoke with the cheese specialists in those stores to see if they carry brick cheeses and, if so, who the producers are. I was told by the cheese specialist at CM Austin that they carry the Wilmont Farms brick cheese; the cheese specialist for the Houston CM said that they carry both the Wilmont Farms brick cheese and the Widmer brick cheese. According to http://www.delisource.net/wilmot.html, Wilmont Farms is apparently a brand name for cheese products from many different cheese producers in Wisconsin. Widmer is one of the top names in brick cheeses, at least in terms of authenticity, or so I concluded when I researched brick cheeses some time ago. Their website, where their brick cheese products can be examined, is at http://www.widmerscheese.com/. I know that Norma is familiar with the Widmer name and, I believe, she is awaiting a response to an email she sent to them to see if their brick cheese is available from someone near her.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 26, 2012, 12:57:34 PM
fwiw, when doing a "Bert's" pie in a deep aluminum black hard anodized pan...I've used mozz,provo,gouda, and munster(not all together,but sometimes a mixture), I'll oil the bottom of the pan but never the sides and I can burn any of those cheese's BLACK(on the edge/side of pan) if I wanted to.

ps, going to Klausie's truck latter today. I'll take some pics and ask some questions...
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 26, 2012, 01:27:15 PM
Out of curiosity, I called one of the Central Markets in Austin and also the one in Houston and spoke with the cheese specialists in those stores to see if they carry brick cheeses and, if so, who the producers are. I was told by the cheese specialist at CM Austin that they carry the Wilmont Farms brick cheese; the cheese specialist for the Houston CM said that they carry both the Wilmont Farms brick cheese and the Widmer brick cheese. According to http://www.delisource.net/wilmot.html, Wilmont Farms is apparently a brand name for cheese products from many different cheese producers in Wisconsin. Widmer is one of the top names in brick cheeses, at least in terms of authenticity, or so I concluded when I researched brick cheeses some time ago. Their website, where their brick cheese products can be examined, is at http://www.widmerscheese.com/. I know that Norma is familiar with the Widmer name and, I believe, she is awaiting a response to an email she sent to them to see if their brick cheese is available from someone near her.

Peter

I only remember seeing one brick cheese at CM in Houston. It's possible I missed the other. I'm guessing the one I got was Wilmot. It was very mild. According to the website, Widmers (they have both mild and aged) is a washed rind. The one I had was clearly young, and it didn't have a ripened flavor.

CL
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 26, 2012, 05:42:16 PM
My guess is that it is cheddar on the edge and mozzerella in the middle. Maybe some cheddar in the mozzerella. It was not too strong.

CL

Thanks Craig for telling me what the cheeses tasted like to you.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 26, 2012, 05:45:01 PM
I hadn’t received any email about Widmer’s brick cheese today from using the Contact Us feature on their website, so when I got home from market I called Widners cheese.  I asked the lady that answered the phone if any retail stores in Pa. carry the Widmer’s brick cheese.  I told her I owned a small pizza business and want to try the Widmer’s brick cheese on the Detroit-style pizza I was working on.  The lady looked and said she doesn’t think there are any retail stores in Pa. that carry any of the Widmer’s brick cheese.  I asked the lady what are the kinds of brick cheeses they produce and she said they produce what is called Specialty Brick cheese which is mild.  The also carry what is called the traditional Widmer’s brick cheese which is aged and has more of a tang.  The lady told me if I wanted to use the brick cheese on a pizza she would think I would use the Specialty brick cheese. 

I looked on the Widmer’s website while I was talking to the lady and I guess this is what is called the Specialty Brick cheese in 5 lb. http://www.widmerscheese.com/products/Vac-Pack-Whole-Mild-Specialty-Brick-5-lb.html  Widmer’s also carries the same brick cheese in 1 lb. http://www.widmerscheese.com/products/Vac-Pack-Mild-Specialty-Brick-1-lb.html and 2.5 lb. http://www.widmerscheese.com/products/Vac-Pack-Half-Mild-Specialty-Brick-2.5-lb.html

I asked the lady if there are any places that sell the Widmer’s brick cheese wholesale in Pa. and she said she didn’t really know, but would transfer me to Mr. Widmer’s voicemail.  I left a message on Mr. Widmer’s voicemail.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 26, 2012, 05:47:00 PM
I just wanted to post that I got another email from Buddy’s at 12:42 PM that said this.

The extra sauce is included.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 26, 2012, 08:21:13 PM
Out of curiosity, I called one of the Central Markets in Austin and also the one in Houston and spoke with the cheese specialists in those stores to see if they carry brick cheeses and, if so, who the producers are. I was told by the cheese specialist at CM Austin that they carry the Wilmont Farms brick cheese; the cheese specialist for the Houston CM said that they carry both the Wilmont Farms brick cheese and the Widmer brick cheese. According to http://www.delisource.net/wilmot.html, Wilmont Farms is apparently a brand name for cheese products from many different cheese producers in Wisconsin. Widmer is one of the top names in brick cheeses, at least in terms of authenticity, or so I concluded when I researched brick cheeses some time ago. Their website, where their brick cheese products can be examined, is at http://www.widmerscheese.com/. I know that Norma is familiar with the Widmer name and, I believe, she is awaiting a response to an email she sent to them to see if their brick cheese is available from someone near her.

Peter


Peter,

Do your Central Markets in Texas have cheese specialists in all of them?  They sure must be big supermarkets because I never heard of cheese specialists in any supermarkets in our area.  Did you ask the cheese specialists how the brick cheeses tasted? 

I wonder how I would find out who produces the Wilmont brick cheese in Wisconsin?   I think I am going to be like other smaller pizza businesses in the end and won’t be able to find wholesale brick cheese for my Detroit-style pizzas, or at they will be very hard to source, or even too expensive in the end.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 26, 2012, 08:25:06 PM
fwiw, when doing a "Bert's" pie in a deep aluminum black hard anodized pan...I've used mozz,provo,gouda, and munster(not all together,but sometimes a mixture), I'll oil the bottom of the pan but never the sides and I can burn any of those cheese's BLACK(on the edge/side of pan) if I wanted to.

ps, going to Klausie's truck latter today. I'll take some pics and ask some questions...

Bob,

Good to hear you could get any of the cheeses you mentioned to get black on the edges of you black hard anodized pan if you wanted to.

Good luck in your adventure to take pictures and ask some questions at Klausie’s truck.  Let us know how their Detroit-style pizza tastes to you.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 26, 2012, 08:42:38 PM
Do your Central Markets in Texas have cheese specialists in all of them?  They sure must be big supermarkets because I never heard of cheese specialists in any supermarkets in our area.  Did you ask the cheese specialists how the brick cheeses tasted? 

I wonder how I would find out who produces the Wilmont brick cheese in Wisconsin?   I think I am going to be like other smaller pizza businesses in the end and won’t be able to find wholesale brick cheese for my Detroit-style pizzas, or at they will be very hard to source, or even too expensive in the end.

Norma,

The Central Markets are high end stores with prices to match. They also happen to have very large cheese departments.  When I called them today, I asked to be connected to the person in charge of the cheese department. That is who I talked with in both stores. Since those employees are responsible for the cheese sections, they are quite knowledgeable about cheeses in general and their inventory. If they don't know the answers offhand, they generally can get them quite quickly.

I'm not sure how you can find a supplier or distributor of the Wilmont brick cheese. You might send an email or call them to see if they even deal with individuals. Maybe they only deal with retailers.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 26, 2012, 08:58:36 PM
Norma,

The Central Markets are high end stores with prices to match. They also happen to have very large cheese departments.  When I called them today, I asked to be connected to the person in charge of the cheese department. That is who I talked with in both stores. Since those employees are responsible for the cheese sections, they are quite knowledgeable about cheeses in general and their inventory. If they don't know the answers offhand, they generally can get them quite quickly.

I'm not sure how you can find a supplier or distributor of the Wilmont brick cheese. You might send an email or call them to see if they even deal with individuals. Maybe they only deal with retailers.

Peter


Peter,

Thank you for telling me about the Central Markets in Texas and about the many cheeses they carry.

I might call http://www.delisource.net/wilmot.html to find out if they might carry the Wilmont brand of brick cheese somewhere in my area.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Tscarborough on November 26, 2012, 09:15:50 PM
As a rule, Central Markets department heads, if not general employees, are very much more knowledgeable and enthusiastic than in a regular supermarket.  I would never buy milk or onions there, but for specialty foods, they are pretty good.  We call it "Central Markup".

The brick that Zane used on the pizzas in the driveway is not anything they use at the stores (yet) I am pretty sure, but it had a tang when eaten raw.  He seems to think that is the type they use at Buddy's.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 26, 2012, 09:35:01 PM
Central Markets kinda sounds a bit like "Whole Foods" here in NC. A few days ago I was talking with their cheese dept. head and he told me that "Brick" cheese was mostly a "Northern" thing and doubted I would be able to find any in our area here. I asked him what it tasted like and he told me it was a cross between Muenster and Limburger, melts like Mozz and is much more buttery....
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 26, 2012, 09:39:35 PM
Central Markets kinda sounds a bit like "Whole Foods" here in NC.

We have Whole Foods too. CM is a lot less granola and a lot more good food.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Tscarborough on November 26, 2012, 09:44:53 PM
Yeah, "Whole Paycheck" is not the same.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 26, 2012, 09:46:51 PM
As a rule, Central Markets department heads, if not general employees, are very much more knowledgeable and enthusiastic than in a regular supermarket.  I would never buy milk or onions there, but for specialty foods, they are pretty good.  We call it "Central Markup".

The brick that Zane used on the pizzas in the driveway is not anything they use at the stores (yet) I am pretty sure, but it had a tang when eaten raw.  He seems to think that is the type they use at Buddy's.

Tom,

Thanks for telling more about what Central Markets are like.  That sure is funny if you call it “Central Markup”!  :-D

Thanks also for telling what you though of the brick that Zane used on the pizzas in your driveway.  That tang has me stumped.  I guess I will find out what the brick tastes like on a Buddy’s pizza by Wednesday.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Skee on November 27, 2012, 10:58:27 AM
That tang has me stumped.  I guess I will find out what the brick tastes like on a Buddy’s pizza by Wednesday.
Looking forward to the report on the Buddy's!  As far as "tang" in cheese, this is lactic acid, like in yogurt, and "sharp" cheddars that have not been aged a long time are often tangy without the complexity added through longer aging (the nutty flavors for instance).  I did a little experiment with the cheese on last Sunday's deep-dish pizzas - both had the standard two oz of white NY sharp cheddar on the edges and a mix of part-skim and whole milk (low moisture) mozzarella across the tops, but on one I added 0.5 oz of the sharp cheddar to the mix.  The difference between the two was subtle and if you didn't know what it was you might not pick it out and say "extra cheddar!" but the cheddar version was deemed better by the tasters.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 27, 2012, 02:29:48 PM
Norma, based on everything you know so far, what do you think the "right" hydration for Detroit Style is?

I'm going to start calling Detroit Style "DS" from now on.

CL
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 27, 2012, 03:26:42 PM
Norma,

You (and others) may be interested in knowing that Via 313 and Brown Dog Pizza (in Colorado) both use pans from Detroit Style Pizza Co: http://www.prweb.com/releases/DetroitStyle/PizzaPans/prweb9753434.htm.

According to this release, http://www.waow.com/story/20026648/detroit-style-pizza-co-gives-away-free-pans-with-mail-order-pizza-packages-in-november, Detroit Style Pizza Co will give free pans until November 30 with purchases of its mail order pizzas.

You are also correct about the lower mail order pricing of their pizzas: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2011/11/prweb8928352.htm. You can read about how they prepare and process their mail order pizzas at http://www.pizzatoday.com/magazine/2012-march-conversation.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 27, 2012, 08:19:39 PM
Norma, based on everything you know so far, what do you think the "right" hydration for Detroit Style is?

I'm going to start calling Detroit Style "DS" from now on.

CL


Craig,

You can read Peter’s post at Reply 28 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg219451.html#msg219451 You will see where Peter posted that he found an old post of his where he suggested in the last paragraph of his link that a hydration of around 70% be used for a Buddy’s clone.  You can also read what else Peter posted about he thinks Trenton Bill and I stumbled upon a Buddy’s clone, or it appears that way.  Peter can correct me if I am wrong.

What do you think of a hydration around 70%.  I am using a hydration 71.023% on this thread.  I think Peter knows what he was posting about.

That is fine with me if you start calling the Detroit style DS from now on. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 27, 2012, 08:44:04 PM
Norma,

You (and others) may be interested in knowing that Via 313 and Brown Dog Pizza (in Colorado) both use pans from Detroit Style Pizza Co: http://www.prweb.com/releases/DetroitStyle/PizzaPans/prweb9753434.htm.

According to this release, http://www.waow.com/story/20026648/detroit-style-pizza-co-gives-away-free-pans-with-mail-order-pizza-packages-in-november, Detroit Style Pizza Co will give free pans until November 30 with purchases of its mail order pizzas.

You are also correct about the lower mail order pricing of their pizzas: http://www.prweb.com/releases/2011/11/prweb8928352.htm. You can read about how they prepare and process their mail order pizzas at http://www.pizzatoday.com/magazine/2012-march-conversation.

Peter


Peter,

I was interested to know that Via 318 and Brown Dog Pizza both use pans from Detroit Style Pizza Co.  I appreciate you found that link.  

I see your link about Detroit Style Pizza Co giving free pans away with mail order pizzas until November 30th.  I think this project is getting too expensive as it is without me ordering a pizza from them, even if I get a free pan.  I don’t even know how their Detroit-style pizzas taste.  Of course, I don’t know how a Buddy’s pizza tastes either.   :-D

I see Shawn sends his pizzas out baked.  Do you think they are fully baked?  I also see Shawn sends his pizzas out with the sauce separately packaged, as he says the pizza turns out better when the sauce is applied right before baking them in your own oven.

Thanks for finding all those links!

You might be interested to know that I used the tracking number this morning to see where my Buddy’s pizza was and it said on the information that the weight of the package is about 21 lbs.  :o I have to look at the tracking information more tomorrow to see where my Buddy’s pizza is and really what the correct weight is.  It said this morning that delivery is supposed to be tomorrow though.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 27, 2012, 08:46:50 PM
I talked to Tom Kiefer at Kiefer’s cheese and smoked meats today.  http://www.kiefersmeats.com/about  I was thinking yesterday about where I might find brick cheese and did remember that Kiefer’s was mentioned to me by a cheese broker in Philadelphia when I was hunting for cheddars on the boardwalk thread.  The cheese broker from Philadelphia had told me Kiefer’s did wholesale cheeses, so I thought why not ask Tom today if they did handle brick cheese at all.  Tom told me yes they do handle brick cheese, but I would need to order six 5lb. loaves in a case.  Tom told me my price for the brick cheese would be 2.49 a lb.  I asked Tom who was the producer of the brick cheese and he said he doesn’t really know, but would find out until next week for me.  Tom is also going to ask for samples of the brick cheese for me to try on my Detroit-style pizzas.  Tom also told me that he was talking to a cheese broker in Wisconsin last week and the cheese broker told Tom not to purchase too many cheeses right now because in two weeks the prices of cheeses is really going to go down.  I asked Tom why that would be and Tom told me he really doesn’t know, but the bottom is supposed to drop out for cheese prices in about 2 weeks.  Tom is going to check on prices for mozzarellas and cheddars for me too.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 27, 2012, 08:49:34 PM
It did snow in our area this morning before I went to market. 

At 10:45 AM this morning I took the Buddy’s clone dough ball out of the deli case that had the 0.20% IDY added and measured the poppy seeds spacing.  The dough ball had almost doubled in size.  This was the dough ball I had started on Saturday.  The dough ball was left out at room temperature until 12:00 PM and then had doubled in size.  The dough was then put into the pan and was left to temper until 1:45 PM with a lid on.  The steel pan was oiled with Corn oil.  The skin was dressed with 1.25 ounces of my regular pepperoni and 8 ounces of a combination of AMPI mild white cheddar and my two mozzarellas.  5 ounces of AMPI cheddar was used and 3 ounces of my mozzarellas.  4.5 ounces of my regular sauce was added on this pizza before the bake.

The Buddy’s clone pizza baked in 12:58 minutes on my top deck.  The Buddy’s clone pizza turned out good, but there could have been a little more browning on the bottom crust.  There was really good caramelization on the sides of this Buddy’s attempt.  The weight of the pizza right out of the oven was  1 lb. 5.7 ounces.

Norma   
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 27, 2012, 08:50:53 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 27, 2012, 08:52:23 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 27, 2012, 08:55:20 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 27, 2012, 08:58:22 PM
The frozen dough ball with 1% IDY added was taken to market this morning and put right in my deli case.  It also was taken out of the deli case at 10:45 AM and felt altogether frozen.  I left the dough ball out at room temperature until 1:45 PM.  It was then defrosted and I put it in the steel pan and gradually pressed the skin with my fingers until it fit the steel pan.  The steel pan was oiled with Canola oil for this Buddy’s clone attempt.  The one picture shows how much I oiled the steel pan with Canola oil.  The plastic lid was also put on this pan while the dough was tempering.  I also used 1.25 ounces of my regular pepperoni to dress this Buddy’s clone pizza and used the same blend of cheeses in the same amounts.  4.5 ounces of my regular sauce also was used to dress this pizza before the bake.  This Buddy’s clone attempt took 13 minutes 20 seconds to bake.  The weight of this pizza was 1.59 lbs., or 620 grams.  I forgot to take the grams of the first pizza I made.  Both dough balls was scaled to 9.5 ounces. 

This was the best Buddy’s attempt of the two I did today.  The bottom crust did brown well and the crumb still was nice and light and had a good texture with nice caramelization on the sides of the pizza in my opinion. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 27, 2012, 09:03:23 PM
In the last picture in this reply it can be seen how the cheeses look when they are partially baked.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 27, 2012, 09:05:23 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 27, 2012, 09:07:15 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 27, 2012, 09:10:05 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 27, 2012, 09:37:15 PM
If anyone is interested in the times and where my Buddy’s pizza is now this is what it says from the tracking number Buddy’s gave me.

Date/Time Activity Location Details
Nov 27, 2012 8:41 PM
Arrived at FedEx location
LEWISBERRY, PA
Nov 27, 2012 2:31 AM
In transit
PERRYSBURG, OH
Nov 27, 2012 12:55 AM
Left FedEx origin facility
LIVONIA, MI
Nov 26, 2012 6:00 PM
Arrived at FedEx location
LIVONIA, MI
Nov 26, 2012 4:25 PM
Picked up
LIVONIA, MI

This is also the Shipment Facts

Service type
FedEx Ground-U.S.
Weight
19.3 lbs/8.8 kg

The tracking times are a little messed up, from me copying them and pasting them, but at least the Buddy's pizza is in Pa. now. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 27, 2012, 09:58:25 PM
You can read Peter’s post at Reply 28 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg219451.html#msg219451 You will see where Peter posted that he found an old post of his where he suggested in the last paragraph of his link that a hydration of around 70% be used for a Buddy’s clone.  You can also read what else Peter posted about he thinks Trenton Bill and I stumbled upon a Buddy’s clone, or it appears that way.  Peter can correct me if I am wrong.

What do you think of a hydration around 70%.  I am using a hydration 71.023% on this thread.  I think Peter knows what he was posting about.

Craig and Norma,

I think the safe zone from a hydration standpoint is perhaps in the 70-80% range. It could be even higher (see my Randazzo discussion below) but I think it depends on who is making the dough and the ability of that person to work with high hydration doughs. For example, I believe that Jet's, which makes a square pizza similar to a Detroit style pizza, uses a hydration of around 65%. In the context of a nationwide franchising program, that is perhaps as high as they dare to go with the type of workers (often young with limited experience) that they hire in their stores. Norma, who is more experienced than most, and knows how to work with high hydration doughs, has been using a hydration of around 71%. Most of the dough balls she has shown have tended to be round (mostly to use the poppy seed trick) but if you look at Reply 170 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg221785.html#msg221785, you can see what the dough balls look like before she forms them into round balls.

With respect to the Hunt boys at Via 313, looking at the dough balls in their pans as shown in the Slice article at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/11/via-313-detroit-pizza-in-austin-texas.html, I would guess that they are using a hydration that may be more than what Norma has been using. But I know that the Hunt boys can also handle high hydration doughs. In the case of Shawn Randazzo, it was recently reported by a skilled pizza operator at the PMQ Think Tank, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=84302#p84302, that Shawn's Detroit style dough as he saw it at one of the pizza shows was so wet that it was like a step above being batter. For that to be, I think he would be using above 80% hydration, and maybe well above 80%. It was intentional that he used a very high hydration dough, much higher than is/was being used by Cloverleaf Pizza, which he and his mother own. They are executing on a very aggressive marketing program and apparently a high hydration dough is at the center of that program, especially since that was the dough the earned him the 2012 World Champion Pizza Maker of the Year award at the 2012 International Pizza Expo (http://www.prweb.com/releases/detroit/pizza/prweb9316391.htm) .

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 27, 2012, 10:01:25 PM
I see Shawn sends his pizzas out baked.  Do you think they are fully baked?

Norma,

I could be wrong but I read the press release on the mail order pizzas to mean that the pizzas are fully baked.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 27, 2012, 10:21:51 PM
Norma,

For the 0.20% IDY Buddy's clone dough ball that you showed at Reply 491 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg225446.html#msg225446 and for the 1% IDY Buddy's clone frozen dough ball that you showed at Reply 495 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg225452.html#msg225452, the spacings of the poppy seeds at the times that the photos were taken suggest an increase in the volume of the two dough balls of around 68%. With the tempering in both cases, it looks like the yeast numbers worked. You also demonstrated that it is possible to make frozen Buddy's clone doughs.

Can you compare the results of the two recent pizzas, one using a cold fermented dough and the other using a frozen emergency type dough, with the room temperature emergency type Buddy's clone pizzas?

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 27, 2012, 10:37:35 PM
Craig and Norma,

I think the safe zone from a hydration standpoint is perhaps in the 70-80% range. It could be even higher (see my Randazzo discussion below) but I think it depends on who is making the dough and the ability of that person to work with high hydration doughs. For example, I believe that Jet's, which makes a square pizza similar to a Detroit style pizza, uses a hydration of around 65%. In the context of a nationwide franchising program, that is perhaps as high as they dare to go with the type of workers (often young with limited experience) that they hire in their stores. Norma, who is more experienced than most, and knows how to work with high hydration doughs, has been using a hydration of around 71%. Most of the dough balls she has shown have tended to be round (mostly to use the poppy seed trick) but if you look at Reply 170 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg221785.html#msg221785, you can see what the dough balls look like before she forms them into round balls.

With respect to the Hunt boys at Via 313, looking at the dough balls in their pans as shown in the Slice article at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/11/via-313-detroit-pizza-in-austin-texas.html, I would guess that they are using a hydration that may be more than what Norma has been using. But I know that the Hunt boys can also handle high hydration doughs. In the case of Shawn Randazzo, it was recently reported by a skilled pizza operator at the PMQ Think Tank, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=84302#p84302, that Shawn's Detroit style dough as he saw it at one of the pizza shows was so wet that it was like a step above being batter. For that to be, I think he would be using above 80% hydration, and maybe well above 80%. It was intentional that he used a very high hydration dough, much higher than is/was being used by at Cloverleaf Pizza, which he and his mother own. They are executing on a very aggressive marketing program and apparently a high hydration dough is at the center of that program, especially since that was the dough the earned him the 2012 World Champion Pizza Maker of the Year award at the 2012 International Pizza Expo (http://www.prweb.com/releases/detroit/pizza/prweb9316391.htm) .

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for posting you think the safe zone for a Buddy’s pizza in perhaps in the 70-80% range.  An 80% hydration dough with a lower protein content flour, or even a higher protein flour would be hard for me to handle unless I almost poured the dough into the pan.  I can’t see normal employees being able to handle much over 70% hydration, unless the dough isn’t balled, or they have a lot of experience with high hydration doughs.  If my doughs I have tried on this thread were much higher in hydration I probably would have had to use more stretch and folds.

I really don’t know how high the hydration doughs are that Hunt boys dough balls are in that article on Slice, but couldn’t they be just mixed doughs and not balled?  They look to me like some of my doughs looked before balling.  I believe the Hunt boys can manage a higher hydration dough than I can.  I see what you mean about Shaw’s Detroit style doughs being like a step above a batter from the link on PMQ Think Tank.

Norma 
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 27, 2012, 10:42:28 PM
Norma,

I could be wrong but I read the press release on the mail order pizzas to mean that the pizzas are fully baked.

Peter

Peter,

I also read the press release and thought the same thing as you, but wondered how you would reheat a whole pizza and not dry it out some if it is fully baked.  I guess I wonder too much. 

Norma


Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2012, 08:02:46 AM
Looking forward to the report on the Buddy's!  As far as "tang" in cheese, this is lactic acid, like in yogurt, and "sharp" cheddars that have not been aged a long time are often tangy without the complexity added through longer aging (the nutty flavors for instance).  I did a little experiment with the cheese on last Sunday's deep-dish pizzas - both had the standard two oz of white NY sharp cheddar on the edges and a mix of part-skim and whole milk (low moisture) mozzarella across the tops, but on one I added 0.5 oz of the sharp cheddar to the mix.  The difference between the two was subtle and if you didn't know what it was you might not pick it out and say "extra cheddar!" but the cheddar version was deemed better by the tasters.

Skee,

I am sorry I missed your post last evening.  :-[ Thank for explaining how the “tang” in cheese can be obtained.  :)

Your experiment was interesting with the 0.5 ounces of sharp cheddar added to your mix of cheeses.  Glad to hear the cheddar version with the sharp cheddar in the mix was deemed better by your taste testers.
  :chef:
I have been keeping a block of Nasonville 3 month old aged cheddar in my fridge to see if it tastes any different when used on the boardwalk style of pizza.  Before it was a little too mild for that type of pizza.  I wanted to experiment to see how it might age in my fridge in the sealed package.  I have been looking for that “tang” in the boardwalk thread for a long while (over 2 years).  I did achieve it one time, but that was with the Nasonville cheddar that was aged for 1 year and was baked in my moms oven.  When I went to make the same pizza at market the flavor profile changed somehow and was a little too “tangy”.  :-\  Oh, what we go though to try and get what we want.  This pizza obsession drives me almost crazy sometimes.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2012, 08:14:48 AM
From Peter’s one post at Reply 501 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg225466.html#msg225466 I decided to see if I could watch the Youtube link of when Shawn Randazzo made his award winning pizza at the Pizza Expo and see if I could see how his dough might have looked in the steel pan.  I really couldn’t see how his dough looked, but it does look like his dough might have been higher in the pan than my doughs.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d3DRNF4YHY I don’t know why I couldn’t watch the video from the link Peter gave.  At 0.20 seconds and a little after the dough can be seen in the steel pan, but not a close-up shot.  I thought the was an interesting video.  I think in the video it says Shawn used a 3 cheese blend on his award winning pizza.

This is a picture I copied off of Detroit Style Pizza Co website of Shaw Randazzo with another Detroit-style pizza he made with his award.  I wondered why on his website he had pictures of Old Forge Style Thin Crust pizzas if you watch the slideshow on  top of the website. http://detroitstylepizza.co/   I saw when I downloaded the menu at http://detroitstylepizza.co/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/7-1-12-DSPC-JumboBack.pdf that they do offer “Old Forge Style” Thin Crust Pizzas.

From Detroit Style Pizza Co Twitter page https://twitter.com/DetStylePizzaCo

Shawn Randazzo and Linda Michaels, owners of Detroit Style Pizza Co., know first hand the benefits of bringing in a coach. Randazzo and Michaels are a mother and son team who hired a coach even though they didn't have the money to do so. In a recent interview, they told me that they knew they had to do something to improve their business. They were doing the same things over and over and getting the same results. They both recognized that they needed to get outside help in order to take their business to the next level.

http://www.fastcompany.com/3002882/if-tom-brady-can-improve-so-can-you

From Forbes

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertamatuson/2012/11/16/its-all-in-the-family-sons-and-moms-in-business-together/

From candgnews.com

http://www.candgnews.com/news/local-restaurant-wins-world-pizza-making-title

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2012, 09:16:32 AM
Norma,

For the 0.20% IDY Buddy's clone dough ball that you showed at Reply 491 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg225446.html#msg225446 and for the 1% IDY Buddy's clone frozen dough ball that you showed at Reply 495 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg225452.html#msg225452, the spacings of the poppy seeds at the times that the photos were taken suggest an increase in the volume of the two dough balls of around 68%. With the tempering in both cases, it looks like the yeast numbers worked. You also demonstrated that it is possible to make frozen Buddy's clone doughs.

Can you compare the results of the two recent pizzas, one using a cold fermented dough and the other using a frozen emergency type dough, with the room temperature emergency type Buddy's clone pizzas?

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for doing the calculations and telling me how much my 2 dough balls increased by around 68% from the spacings of the poppy seeds.  Yes, the yeast numbers did work well that you gave me to try for both doughs with some tempering of the dough balls.  Thanks for giving me the right amounts of IDY to try.  I had wanted to get the dough ball with the 1% IDY added out of the freezer on Monday and let it thaw out in the refrigerator, but wondered if it might then ferment too much with that much yeast added until the next day.  I wonder what would have happened if I would have taken the dough ball with 1% IDY out of the freezer and left it defrost in the fridge until the next day. 

To answer your question about comparing the results of the two recent pizzas, with the room temperature emergency type of Buddy’s clone pizza, I would say they almost tasted the same to me.  As I posted I liked the second Buddy’s clone attempt I made yesterday better.  That was the one made from the frozen dough ball.  I really can’t say, but think I liked it better because it had a browner and crisper bottom crust.  I really don’t know if that was from using Canola oil, or if how much of any kind of oil matters.  I would think that how much oil in the steel pan matters, but haven’t found that magic spot each time, or either the bake time is off.  I still will say that using the AMPI mild white cheddar and my mozzarellas in comparison to using the brick cheese from Mandi Cheese really don’t give the pizzas that much of a different taste.  I think what really stands out in any of these pizzas is the oiling off of any of the cheeses, the caramelization of the edges and the soft and nice texture of the crumb.  The brick cheese does oil off well and is buttery tasting and so does the AMPI mild white cheddar and my blend of mozzarellas.  It is kind of weird, but with this type of pizza it really doesn’t seem to matter how the dough is tempered in how the crumb tastes after the bake.  So far it seems like it tastes almost the same to me.  I haven’t tried a long ferment though.  I also thought it was kind of weird too in the two pizzas I made yesterday that the pepperoni really couldn’t be tasted a lot, something like my other experiments with the pepperoni under the cheese.  The regular pepperoni did oil off more than the brand Steve brought me though.  I think in one or two of the pictures it can be seen there was a slight gum line on the first pizza I made yesterday in the middle of the pizza, but in the second pizza there was not any gum line.

I asked Tom Kiefer yesterday if the brick cheese he wholesales iare mild, or does it have a tang.  He said he would ask the producer of the brick cheese if they have two varieties of the brick cheese and might be able to get me two samples to try on my Detroit-style pizzas if they do offer two different brick cheeses.

I wanted to ask you another question since you think Detroit-style pizzas can be in the 70-80% hydration range, or maybe higher, if there is anyway we will really know what hydration Buddy’s is using?

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2012, 09:18:11 AM
The FedEx truck just brought me the Buddy’s pizza.  I didn’t open the box yet, but sure don’t think I am ready to eat a Buddy’s pizza so early in the morning.  I didn’t even eat breakfast yet.  :-D  Now I wonder what I should do.  I didn’t expect the Buddy’s pizza to arrive so early.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2012, 10:10:24 AM
I opened the box from Buddy’s pizza and if anyone is interested this what the pizza and extra sauce look like and all the packing materials.  I put everything back in the shipping box, until I am better prepared to look at it more.  Everything is freezing cold.  When I handled the extra sauce it almost froze my fingers.

I did bring a 8”x10” steel pan home from market, but don’t think the instructions call for using a steel pan.  The instructions do say a baking tray can be used, but wouldn’t think that would be a steel pan.  I did bring my IR gun home from market so I can make sure the temperature in my oven is between 375-400 degrees F.    I am not too sure of how to retain all of the stuff on the Buddy’s pizza during the bake if it isn‘t kept in some kind of a pan. 

Any further ideas of what to do?

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2012, 10:11:29 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2012, 10:12:57 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 28, 2012, 10:16:01 AM
Norma,

Thanks for doing the calculations and telling me how much my 2 dough balls increased by around 68% from the spacings of the poppy seeds.  Yes, the yeast numbers did work well that you gave me to try for both doughs with some tempering of the dough balls.  Thanks for giving me the right amounts of IDY to try.  I had wanted to get the dough ball with the 1% IDY added out of the freezer on Monday and let it thaw out in the refrigerator, but wondered if it might then ferment too much with that much yeast added until the next day.  I wonder what would have happened if I would have taken the dough ball with 1% IDY out of the freezer and left it defrost in the fridge until the next day.
I think you would have been OK had you decided to let the frozen dough defrost overnight in the deli case. One of the nice things about pan pizzas is that you don't have to worry about the effects of long fermentations on handling of the dough. Even doughs on the verge of overfermenting or overproofing won't be particularly hard to handle when they are in the pans.

I wanted to ask you another question since you think Detroit-style pizzas can be in the 70-80% hydration range, or maybe higher, if there is anyway we will really know what hydration Buddy’s is using?

Absent insider information or having a real Buddy's dough ball to observe and feel and maybe even run some tests, there is no way that I can think of to ascertain the hydration value for the Buddy's dough.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2012, 10:40:26 AM
Norma,
I think you would have been OK had you decided to let the frozen dough defrost overnight in the deli case. One of the nice things about pan pizzas is that you don't have to worry about the effects of long fermentations on handling of the dough. Even doughs on the verge of overfermenting or overproofing won't be particularly hard to handle when they are in the pans.

Absent insider information or having a real Buddy's dough ball to observe and feel and maybe even run some tests, there is no way that I can think of to ascertain the hydration value for the Buddy's dough.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me you think it would have been okay if I defrosted the dough ball overnight in the deli case.  I kept it at home until yesterday morning because I wasn’t sure about the weather.  I will make another frozen dough ball this week and let it defrost in the deli case until the next day.  I didn’t think about not having to worry about the effects of long fermentation on handling the dough since it is put into a pan.  I also wanted to watch how the poppy seeds spacings changed while the dough ball defrosted.

I can understand there is really no way of knowing what hydration Buddy’s dough balls are unless someone has a real Buddy’s dough ball or there is insider information.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 28, 2012, 10:50:03 AM
I opened the box from Buddy’s pizza and if anyone is interested this what the pizza and extra sauce look like and all the packing materials.  I put everything back in the shipping box, until I am better prepared to look at it more.  Everything is freezing cold.  When I handled the extra sauce it almost froze my fingers.

Any further ideas of what to do?

Norma,

At this point, I would just follow the instructions sent to you by Buddy's. Eventually, you will want to weigh the container with the extra sauce and, once the sauce has been removed from the container, either to use it on the pizza or to transfer it to another container for future study or tests, and weigh the empty container itself (after rinsing, of course). Knowing the combined weight of the container and sauce and the weight of the empty container will enable us to calculate how much sauce was in the container. Hopefully, they sent you an amount of sauce that they use on their own pizzas.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2012, 10:59:58 AM
Norma,

At this point, I would just follow the instructions sent to you by Buddy's. Eventually, you will want to weigh the container with the extra sauce and, once the sauce has been removed from the container, either to use it on the pizza or to transfer it to another container for future study or tests, and weigh the empty container itself (after rinsing, of course). Knowing the combined weight of the container and sauce and the weight of the empty container will enable us to calculate how much sauce was in the container. Hopefully, they sent you an amount of sauce that they use on their own pizzas.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me to just follow the instructions sent to me by Buddy’s.  I will weigh the container with the extra sauce.  I did ask for the amount of sauce that is on a small Buddy’s pizza, but have no idea if that is what they sent me.

I will taste the sauce and then freeze it again.  I invited Steve over so he could taste the Buddy’s pizza sometime later today.  He knows what my Buddy’s clones have tasted like and also my sauces and cheeses, so he should be a good one to compare my Buddy’s clones to a real Buddy pizza in the taste of everything.

I am going to take the Buddy’s pizza and sauce out of the box now and put them into the refrigerator until later today.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 28, 2012, 12:17:20 PM
I am not too sure of how to retain all of the stuff on the Buddy’s pizza during the bake if it isn‘t kept in some kind of a pan. 

Any further ideas of what to do?

Norma
Norma,
Have you ever reheated any of your Buddy's clones? I think that original Buddy's you have there looks like it is parbaked quite well and given their own directions I see on the box I wouldn't think you'll have any problems with ingredients overflowing. They recommend such a short reheat time...if it was me, I think I would probably reheat on a screen and if you don't want to preheat a stone to place the screened pie onto...then just go without a stone in the oven.
Bob
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2012, 02:30:20 PM
Norma,
Have you ever reheated any of your Buddy's clones? I think that original Buddy's you have there looks like it is parbaked quite well and given their own directions I see on the box I wouldn't think you'll have any problems with ingredients overflowing. They recommend such a short reheat time...if it was me, I think I would probably reheat on a screen and if you don't want to preheat a stone to place the screened pie onto...then just go without a stone in the oven.
Bob

Bob,

Yes, I have reheated slices of the Buddy’s clones attempts I have made, but not a whole pizza.  I didn’t remove the plastic bag, but the Buddy’s pizza is defrosting on my kitchen table.  To me the sides of the Buddy’s pizza don’t look like they appear to be baked enough.  I didn’t look at the bottom crust yet, because there is a cardboard bottom on the Buddy’s pizza in the plastic bag.  Steve is coming over soon and we will think over how we want to try and bake the Buddy’s pizza the rest of the way.  I don’t know if I will use my steel pan or not.  It all depends on how brown the bottom crust is of the Buddy’s pizza.

I really don’t want to lose any toppings, sides, etc. either in the final bake to be able to take the weight of the Buddy’s pizza after baking, so I am now leaning towards using something to bake the pizza in. 

Thanks for your ideas!

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 28, 2012, 04:07:09 PM
Just a thought I had after reading that you don't think the Buddy's edge is very browned...maybe brush some melted butter on the crust? I know that you know about these things, Norma, and I'm just throwing ideas out there cause sometimes(if you're like me) you don't always think/remember all the tools/weapons we have to skin a cat as they say....especially when excited about something, which I can imagine you probably are about reheating this Buddy's pizza(I know I am and I'm not even eating any of it!  ;D )
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 28, 2012, 04:31:26 PM
I also read the press release and thought the same thing as you, but wondered how you would reheat a whole pizza and not dry it out some if it is fully baked.  I guess I wonder too much. 

Norma,

It looks you might be right on this after all. I called the Detroit Style Pizza Co and asked the fellow who answered the phone whether the mail order pizzas are fully baked before freezing. At first he said yes but then yelled to someone across the room to confirm what he told me. He then said the pizzas are baked part way--about half way. It's amazing how little employees know about their own products.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 28, 2012, 04:38:35 PM
The box Norma has is a bit ambiguous also(imo)...recommending only 5-15 min. reheat time. I suspect it will take every bit of 15min....at their recommended temp.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2012, 04:50:15 PM
Just a thought I had after reading that you don't think the Buddy's edge is very browned...maybe brush some melted butter on the crust? I know that you know about these things, Norma, and I'm just throwing ideas out there cause sometimes(if you're like me) you don't always think/remember all the tools/weapons we have to skin a cat as they say....especially when excited about something, which I can imagine you probably are about reheating this Buddy's pizza(I know I am and I'm not even eating any of it!  ;D )


Bob,

I think Steve and I got the Buddy's pizza figured out okay in the bake department.  Puttin two heads together is better than one at times.  The Buddy's pizza was very good, but different than I expected. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2012, 04:53:48 PM
Norma,

It looks you might be right on this after all. I called the Detroit Style Pizza Co and asked the fellow who answered the phone whether the mail order pizzas are fully baked before freezing. At first he said yes but then yelled to someone across the room to confirm what he told me. He then said the pizzas are baked part way--about half way. It's amazing how little employees know about their own products.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for calling the Detroit Style Pizza company and asking the fellow who answered the phone whether the mail order pizzas are fully baked before freezing.  Lol, for one time I was right.   :P
I found out when I called Buddy's that all employees don't know everything. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 28, 2012, 04:53:56 PM
  Puttin two heads together is better than one at times. 

Norma
Sorta like a massive Pizza Brain!!  8)
I knew you guys would handle it... :chef:
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2012, 04:55:20 PM
Sorta like a massive Pizza Brain!!  8)
I knew you guys would handle it... :chef:

Bob,

Lol, Steve and I aren't pizza brains, but do learn from each experiment.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2012, 06:29:43 PM
Buddy’s pizza was very good.  ;D The crumb was nice and soft and had a great texture.  The bottom crust was tender but crispy.  The one thing that I thought that appeared to be different was although the pizza edges were about the same height as I have been trying on my Buddy’s clones the crumb wasn’t as airy.  There also was a gum line on the pizza (but in a good way and great tasting).  The pepperoni was very good in taste, but like the Buddy’s pizzas I had made with pepperoni the pepperoni can’t really be tasted a lot under the cheese.  Only if Steve and I really tried to notice the pepperoni could it be tasted.  I thought that was a bit odd, as I also thought on my Buddy’s clone pizzas made with two kinds of pepperoni.  I don’t know why, but I expected the bottom crust of Buddy’s pizza not to have air bubbles and be more flat.  It was more like the last pizza I had made in there were some air bubbles under the crust, even before the final bake. Steve and I do think that only brick cheese was used on the Buddy’s pizza.  We couldn’t taste any other cheeses.  The cheese had a buttery taste, but was even milder than the Eddie’s brick cheese that I had tried on some of my attempts.  There was no “tang” at all in the cheese taste of a real Buddy’s pizza.  Steve and I talked it over and think Buddy’s came up with a really good combination of dough, sauce with some spices, brick cheese and baking a pizza in a pan that turns out great. 

Steve and I never really tasted a hot Buddy’s pizza right out of the oven, but really don’t think the hydration of their dough is much above 70% because of the texture of the crumb.  We could be wrong on that though. 

The sauce was thinner than I thought it would be.  There was basil pieces and what tasted like a little sugar, oregano and maybe some pepper in the sauce.  I don’t think there Buddy’s uses the same amount of extra sauce they sent me.  It would seem to Steve and me that not as much sauce is used on their pizza.  When the pizza was sitting there until the final bake, there really didn’t look like much sauce at all, but after the final bake, there appeared to be more sauce.  There are tiny bits of tomatoes in the sauce and Steve and I couldn’t tell if Buddy’s might put the sauce though something to make those tiny bits of what appears to be tomato skins or not.  I took a video of Buddy’s sauce to show what it really looks like, in addition to the pictures of Buddy’s sauce.  This is the video of Buddy‘s sauce.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfkeC8HL-wI

The Buddy’s pepperoni is a little spicy if tasted plain and is very good.

Steve and I decided after talking that we would oil a steel pan with Canola oil a little so the Buddy’s pizza wouldn’t dry out in the oven. 

I had what I thought was exactly the same container that Buddy’s used for the sauce and got a new container out of my shed.  It weighed exactly the same as Buddy’s container at 8 grams.  There was exactly 8 ounces of sauce in the plastic container. 

We weighed 3 slices of pepperoni and they weighed what is shown in the pictures.  The diameter on one slice was 1 5/16”.  The second slice of pepperoni was a possible difference of 1/32” in diameter being it was a little smaller.

I really don’t know, but really don’t think Buddy’s is using 8 ounces of brick cheese on their pizzas.  At least it sure didn’t appear that way to Steve and me.  I think there might be less brick cheese used on their pizzas, or maybe they do send half-baked pizza out differently.  The cheese also had a hard time melting on the final bake.  After 14 minutes of baking in the steel pan at between 380 degrees F to about 410 degrees F the cheese still had some problems melting.  The broiler was turned and the oven was turned off to get the cheese melted.  It took 15 minutes 39 seconds to finish baking Buddy’s pizza.  Steve and I looked at each other and wondered why it took the cheese so long to melt.  The cheese was a little stretchy as can be seen.  My oven was preheated with the pizza stone for over one hour.

The weight of Buddy’s pizza before it was baked was 539 grams, or 1 lb. 3.0 ounces.  The weight of Buddy’s pizza after it was baked was 521 grams, or 1 lb. 2.4 ounces.  I sure was surprised at the weight of Buddy’s cheese and pepperoni pizza before the bake and after the bake. 

Steve and I both agreed that if Buddy’s had a location in our area we would purchase their pizzas.  We got a little attitude at the end with Pete’s-A-Pizza.

Some of the pictures of Buddy’s pizza were taken outside before the plastic wrapping was removed.

Any questions, just ask.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2012, 06:31:34 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2012, 06:33:27 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2012, 06:35:11 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2012, 06:36:48 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2012, 06:38:49 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2012, 06:40:41 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2012, 06:42:59 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2012, 06:46:36 PM
I forgot to post that a screen was place under the steel pan while the broiler was on.  I also baked on the second to bottom rack in my home oven on the pizza stone.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2012, 06:49:14 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2012, 06:52:11 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 28, 2012, 06:55:11 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 28, 2012, 08:41:22 PM
Norma,

Thanks to you and Steve for collecting all of the data on your Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza and giving us your assessment and opinions on the pizza. I will confess that I am often skeptical of claims that pizza operators make about the quality of their mail order pizzas. As I was awaiting your report, I was reminded of the experience that member DKM once had when he ordered and baked two frozen deep-dish pizzas that he had purchased from Malnati's. It took me a while to find his report but it is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,571.0.html. It looks like you had better results than DKM had with his frozen Malnati's pizzas. Yet your pizza did not appear to be identical to a freshly baked cheese and pepperoni pizza as sold in Buddy's store based on the photos I have seen of Buddy's pizzas. I don't mean this as a criticism. It is what it is.

I agree with you that Buddy's sent you more of the sauce than they use in their stores for the 4-square pizza. It might fit their 8-square pizza better. However, you at least have a sample in case you want to analyze it or conduct tests on it at some future date. My understanding has always been that Buddy's uses a Stanislaus tomato product of some sort. That aside, I have not found much in my searches on the makeup of the Buddy's sauce but I do recall that tasters mentioned oregano and a hint of garlic. Seeing the basil leaves in the sauce in the YouTube video you prepared, I might add that the Stanislaus tomato products that include basil leaves include the Full Red with Fresh Basil (http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Full-Red-Pizza-Sauce-w-Fresh-Basil.pdf), the Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce (http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Saporito-Pizza-Sauce-w-Fresh-Basil.pdf), and the SuperDolce (http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Super-Dolce-Pizza-Sauce.pdf). I do not recall that the Buddy's sauce is super sweet, which might rule out the SuperDolce. My recollection is that Buddy's has an herb/spice blend for its sauce and, according to lufty, the former Buddy's employee, the Buddy's pizza sauce is a watered down sauce (Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795). By any chance, did you see any basil leaves in the sauce on the pizza itself?

With respect to the cheese, I can't say that I am surprised that it did not appear that there was 8 ounces on the pizza you received. It's not clear whether all of the pizza assemblers at Buddy's use portioning cups or just free throw the cheese onto the pizza, but in either case, the amount of cheese can vary from one pizza to another. You might also remember that in one of the exchanges that I had with Buddy's I was told that there are variations on the items that go on their pizzas because they are using volume measurements rather than weights. From the photos, it also looks like the Buddy's cheese is diced rather than shredded. Was that your observation also?

It is also good that you were able to confirm that, to the best of your knowledge, there was only one type of cheese used on the pizza you received. To the extent there was a mystery on that point, it appears that it has been resolved. If that is in fact so, then I think it is safe to say that the cheese is brick cheese.

The pepperoni slices appear to be in the ballpark in terms of diameter but a bit light in the weight department when compared with the data you previously received on the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni. No doubt there were some losses in weight due to oiling off during baking and maybe a small amount of shrinkage. In any event, I can't say that we can rule out the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni as the product that Buddy's uses on its pizzas with pepperoni. By any chance, were you able to determine how many pepperoni slices were used in the pizza you received?

Like you, I noticed that the difference between the "before" and "after" weighs of the pizza was not large. However, it should be remembered that there would have been some losses during the partial baking of the pizza. We will never know what those losses were.

On the matter of the crumb and its relationship to the hydration of the dough, it is hard to know what to make of the tighter crumb of the Buddy's pizza you received since the pizza was partially baked and then frozen, making it hard to say whether those two steps had an effect on the crumb.

When I read your comment on the air bubbles at the bottom crust and that the bottom crust was not especially flat, I was reminded that Tom Lehmann was once asked about that over at the PMQ Think Tank. I did a search of that forum and found two questions on that point, one at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=75816#p75816 and the other at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=49630#p49630. I don't believe that Tom ever responded to the first questioner but he did answer the second questioner at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=49641#p49641. Interestingly, Tom blamed shortening for the cratering problem, not oil, which is what the first questioner used. I was also intrigued by the first questioner's post (at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=75816#p75816) since it described a Detroit style dough that has similarities to the Detroit style doughs we have been studying and researching for some time. It was also the first time that I read of someone using the Lloyd anodized pans (most likely a Sicilian pan rather than one of their Detroit style pans, based on the size) to make the questioner's Detroit style pizza.

I'm glad that both you and Steve enjoyed the pizza. But what I'd really like to know is how you (and Steve, if he wishes to opine on the matter) would compare the Buddy's clone pizzas you have been making with the Buddy's pizza you and Steve ate. And did you learn anything from the Buddy'a pizza that would give you cause to change anything you have been doing to arrive at a credible Buddy's clone dough or pizza?

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 28, 2012, 08:57:20 PM
In the pictures, it looks like the sauce has some oil in it?
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 28, 2012, 09:28:32 PM
In the pictures, it looks like the sauce has some oil in it?
Most marinara sauces do...no?
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 28, 2012, 09:36:05 PM
Most marinara sauces do...no?

I don't know. Maybe. I was just asking. It's not something I normally do.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 28, 2012, 10:03:55 PM
All marinara sauces I've had/seen at restaurants here in the States have oil in them....gives it the characteristic red/orange color(depending how much oil is used). It is my understanding that a Detroit Style, traditionally, uses a marinara sauce.

What is the difference between marinara sauce and pomodoro sauce?.....

"Ask several people this question and you'll get several different answers. My answer is based on my background. I'm first born generation here in the states and grew up on my mom's and nonna's Italian cooking. My dad is from Campania and my mom is from Calabria. Growing up, we spent many summers with our relatives in Italy and I was schooled in southern Italy for a year. I think a lot of Italians consider the two sauces the same thing. I have a feeling that's what my mom would say if I asked her ("pomodoro" means tomato).
Marinara sauce is a meatless tomato sauce made with fresh tomatoes, olive oil, garlic and fresh (never dried) basil and salt, that's it. It simmers for only about 20 minutes. The texture is liquidy but with chunks of tomatoes. Since it simmers for a short period of time it retains a lot of it's bright red/orange color as opposed to a deeper red on sauces that simmer for hours. While some of the olive oil blends with the tomatoes, some of it does not. So the olive oil lends a shimmery orange color to the pasta and maybe even adds a tad velvety texture.
A pomodoro sauce, is a lot like the marinara sauce only it's thicker, but still liquidy. It feels a lot like minced tomatoes in your mouth rather than the chuncks you get with marinara sauce. It's cooked a little longer so it's darker in color but not much. "
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Tscarborough on November 28, 2012, 10:16:47 PM
No oil in my marinaras, the orange color comes from fresh tomatoes.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Jet_deck on November 28, 2012, 10:28:41 PM
What is the difference between marinara sauce and pomodoro sauce?.....


Who are you quoting in your quote Bob?
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 28, 2012, 10:39:57 PM
Who are you quoting in your quote Bob?
Just some guy on the web that I thought expressed the dominant thought/site topic quite well...search the topic if you prefer but remember , the first sentence was..."Ask several people this question and you'll get several different answers."
So your mileage may vary...heck, even PH's marinara has oil in it.... ;)
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 28, 2012, 10:56:22 PM
even PH's marinara has oil in it.... ;)

Oil is often a way to make nasty food taste better...
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 28, 2012, 11:09:29 PM
Oil is often a way to make nasty food taste better...
I don't eat PH(using that as a commonality) but I have had some nasty 'que where I guess they thought by adding oil it made it better...Chinese take out follows suit too.
Just trying to repeat what I have come across in researching marinara and what I have always seen ITRW.  ;)  By all means, leave out the oil if you prefer.....I just don't think Buddy is....
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 28, 2012, 11:21:36 PM
Like I said. I was just asking.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Tscarborough on November 28, 2012, 11:24:44 PM
I have never had a Buddy's, but I can guarantee you that the only DS I have had is not marinara and contains no oil.

Not that I consider Wiki to be more than half-ass reliable, but it makes no mention of oil and follows pretty much along with my recipe(s):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinara_sauce
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 28, 2012, 11:27:17 PM
Like I said. I was just asking.
Hey, anytime Craig...always happy to help out with any inquiries you may have.  :chef:
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 28, 2012, 11:31:48 PM
I have never had a Buddy's, but I can guarantee you that the only DS I have had is not marinara and contains no oil.

Not that I consider Wiki to be more than half-ass reliable, but it makes no mention of oil and follows pretty much along with my recipe(s):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinara_sauce
I'll see your wiki an raise you one.... ;D

Detroit-style pizza
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Detroit-style pizza is a style of pizza developed in Detroit, Michigan. It is a square pizza similar to Sicilian-style pizza that has a thick deep-dish crisp crust and toppings such as pepperoni and olives and is served with the marinara sauce on top.[1][2] The square shaped pizza is the result of being baked in a square pan, which is often not a pizza pan.[3] Rather, industrial parts trays are often used, which were originally made to hold small parts in factories.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit-style_pizza
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Tscarborough on November 28, 2012, 11:33:52 PM
I don't see anything about oil in the marinara on there.  I have only had 2 versions of DS, and neither has marinara or oil in the sauce (one was my own).
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Ev on November 28, 2012, 11:35:48 PM
I did not get the impression that there was any oil in the sauce, rather, it seems to be a watered down product of a finely ground tomato with basil, to which has been added a blend of salt, a little sugar, a little oregano, a little garlic and maybe a little black pepper. The sauce, by itself, tasted fresh and fairly balanced between salty and sweet, but maybe a tad salt heavy. Everything else, you had to look for.
 The cheese was very mild and had a chewy texture. I noticed that it was crumbled rather than shredded. It did char well on the edge though, combining with the oil in the pan and take on a little more flavor.
 The pepperoni, I found to be very interesting. I ate a slice by itself and thought it tasted very "meaty", and not until I swallowed did I get any of the familiar pepperoni "spice" flavor. And then, it seemed to linger longer than usual in the back of my mouth.
 The crust was crispy on the bottom and gummy on the top, especially, as you might imagine, under the sauce. I've always kind of liked the contrast and blend of crispy/gummy, so this didn't bother me at all. It's quite possible, I should think, that this is more pronounced in a frozen mail order, thawed and re-baked pizza, as opposed to a fresh pie at the restaurant.  At one point I isolated a portion of the crumb from pretty much everything else and found it to have not much flavor at all.
I think that the strength of the pie lies in the whole rather than the sum of it's ingredients, with each element becoming stronger as it bonds with the next.
 All in all, I did enjoy the pizza. If there was a Buddys in my town, I'd buy their pizza once in a while for sure, but having said that, I'd rather have Norma's version of Buddys pizza, and I mean that! Her crust has more complexity, her sauce is great, and I really like the different cheese combinations she has been using.

 Thank you Norma for inviting me to share your Buddy's pizza! What fun to have a friend like you, so passionate and willing to try anything and share all that you have learned! I'm lucky to know you! ;D
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 29, 2012, 12:10:25 AM
Detroit-style pizza is a style of pizza developed in Detroit, Michigan. It is a square pizza similar to Sicilian-style pizza that has a thick deep-dish crisp crust and toppings such as pepperoni and olives and is served with the marinara sauce on top.[1][2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit-style_pizza

It's interesting that neither of the links (1,2) that wiki cited actually used the word "maranara."

I don't see where Buddy's, Shield's, or Detroit use the word "maranara" for their pizza either.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 29, 2012, 07:35:36 AM
Norma,

Thanks to you and Steve for collecting all of the data on your Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza and giving us your assessment and opinions on the pizza. I will confess that I am often skeptical of claims that pizza operators make about the quality of their mail order pizzas. As I was awaiting your report, I was reminded of the experience that member DKM once had when he ordered and baked two frozen deep-dish pizzas that he had purchased from Malnati's. It took me a while to find his report but it is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,571.0.html. It looks like you had better results than DKM had with his frozen Malnati's pizzas. Yet your pizza did not appear to be identical to a freshly baked cheese and pepperoni pizza as sold in Buddy's store based on the photos I have seen of Buddy's pizzas. I don't mean this as a criticism. It is what it is.

I agree with you that Buddy's sent you more of the sauce than they use in their stores for the 4-square pizza. It might fit their 8-square pizza better. However, you at least have a sample in case you want to analyze it or conduct tests on it at some future date. My understanding has always been that Buddy's uses a Stanislaus tomato product of some sort. That aside, I have not found much in my searches on the makeup of the Buddy's sauce but I do recall that tasters mentioned oregano and a hint of garlic. Seeing the basil leaves in the sauce in the YouTube video you prepared, I might add that the Stanislaus tomato products that include basil leaves include the Full Red with Fresh Basil (http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Full-Red-Pizza-Sauce-w-Fresh-Basil.pdf), the Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce (http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Saporito-Pizza-Sauce-w-Fresh-Basil.pdf), and the SuperDolce (http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/_pdfs/Super-Dolce-Pizza-Sauce.pdf). I do not recall that the Buddy's sauce is super sweet, which might rule out the SuperDolce. My recollection is that Buddy's has an herb/spice blend for its sauce and, according to lufty, the former Buddy's employee, the Buddy's pizza sauce is a watered down sauce (Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795). By any chance, did you see any basil leaves in the sauce on the pizza itself?

With respect to the cheese, I can't say that I am surprised that it did not appear that there was 8 ounces on the pizza you received. It's not clear whether all of the pizza assemblers at Buddy's use portioning cups or just free throw the cheese onto the pizza, but in either case, the amount of cheese can vary from one pizza to another. You might also remember that in one of the exchanges that I had with Buddy's I was told that there are variations on the items that go on their pizzas because they are using volume measurements rather than weights. From the photos, it also looks like the Buddy's cheese is diced rather than shredded. Was that your observation also?

It is also good that you were able to confirm that, to the best of your knowledge, there was only one type of cheese used on the pizza you received. To the extent there was a mystery on that point, it appears that it has been resolved. If that is in fact so, then I think it is safe to say that the cheese is brick cheese.

The pepperoni slices appear to be in the ballpark in terms of diameter but a bit light in the weight department when compared with the data you previously received on the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni. No doubt there were some losses in weight due to oiling off during baking and maybe a small amount of shrinkage. In any event, I can't say that we can rule out the Margherita coarse grind pepperoni as the product that Buddy's uses on its pizzas with pepperoni. By any chance, were you able to determine how many pepperoni slices were used in the pizza you received?

Like you, I noticed that the difference between the "before" and "after" weighs of the pizza was not large. However, it should be remembered that there would have been some losses during the partial baking of the pizza. We will never know what those losses were.

On the matter of the crumb and its relationship to the hydration of the dough, it is hard to know what to make of the tighter crumb of the Buddy's pizza you received since the pizza was partially baked and then frozen, making it hard to say whether those two steps had an effect on the crumb.

When I read your comment on the air bubbles at the bottom crust and that the bottom crust was not especially flat, I was reminded that Tom Lehmann was once asked about that over at the PMQ Think Tank. I did a search of that forum and found two questions on that point, one at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=75816#p75816 and the other at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=49630#p49630. I don't believe that Tom ever responded to the first questioner but he did answer the second questioner at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=49641#p49641. Interestingly, Tom blamed shortening for the cratering problem, not oil, which is what the first questioner used. I was also intrigued by the first questioner's post (at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=75816#p75816) since it described a Detroit style dough that has similarities to the Detroit style doughs we have been studying and researching for some time. It was also the first time that I read of someone using the Lloyd anodized pans (most likely a Sicilian pan rather than one of their Detroit style pans, based on the size) to make the questioner's Detroit style pizza.

I'm glad that both you and Steve enjoyed the pizza. But what I'd really like to know is how you (and Steve, if he wishes to opine on the matter) would compare the Buddy's clone pizzas you have been making with the Buddy's pizza you and Steve ate. And did you learn anything from the Buddy'a pizza that would give you cause to change anything you have been doing to arrive at a credible Buddy's clone dough or pizza?

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for the link to where DKM once had ordered and baked two frozen deep-dish Malnati’s pizzas.  He sure fared worse than I did in mail ordering a Buddy’s pizza.  If I would have seen that report I might not have purchased a Buddy’s pizza by phone for mail order shipping.

I have no idea if the way we did the final bake affected the Buddy’s clone in how it finished baking.  I should have tried the way they recommended on the instructions for a Half-Baked Pizza that I received with Buddy‘s pizza.  I didn’t want the crumb to become too dry and at first I was just going to do the final bake on my one black pan that is just a pizza pan for the oven.  After Steve and I talked it over we decided that way might make the crumb too dry if the final bake time would get to 15 minutes.  That is the reason we finished baking Buddy’s pizza in the steel pan.  I am not sure if our method of doing the final baked gave the gum line or not.   I really don’t know if that affected how the pizza looked either, but it could have affected how the cheese looked.

I really don’t know how to do tests on the Buddy’s sauce but it tasted really good and fresh.  I would have thought it also was a Stanislaus tomato product.  As you probably know I do use Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce.  I really can’t tell if it was Saporito Super Heavy with water added, but don’t really think so because of those tiny bits of what looked like ground-up skins of tomatoes.  Does The Full Red with basil have those kind of tomatoes peel pieces in them?  I think I did use Full Red with basil at one time, but don’t recall those little pieces of whatever it was in the sauce.  I really couldn’t taste a lot garlic in Buddy’s sauce, but then I really taste it that much in mine either.   I think I am becoming too accustomed to tasting garlic, because I do use a lot of fresh garlic in my regular cooking.  I think I use more garlic than most people.  I can taste Buddy’s sauce again if you want me too to see if I can pick-up any other tastes.   

Yes, it was my observation that the Buddy’s cheese was diced rather than shredded.  Steve really gave the Buddy’s pizza a through looking over before we did the final bake and he also did agree that the cheese did look diced. 

With respect to the pepperoni slices they could have lost some weight in the initial bake at Buddy’s.  They sure weren’t really baked when we took them off the pizza though.  Steve just dug off the corner slices of pepperoni and we really didn’t want to disturb the whole Buddy’s pizza so I really don’t know how many slices there were on the pie.

I can only hope I am right that it only brick cheese used on Buddy’s pizza.  I haven’t tried that many brick cheeses, but in my opinion right now it was brick cheese.  To try and explain a little better all of the mozzarellas I have tried do have a little salt taste in them and out of the two I normally use one tastes better if eaten without baking, but nothing bland like the cheese on Buddy‘s pizza.  Of course they are foodservice mozzarellas.  Steve and I each took a little piece of the cheese off after weighing the Buddy’s pizza, but before the final bake.  We both thought the cheese tasted rather bland without any salt.  That is one reason I think it is brick cheese.  There was no cheddar taste that Steve or I could detect.  I never tasted a cheese like Buddy’s uses and was surprised how long it took it to melt at all.  I am not a cheese expert though, so I could be wrong on everything. 

I did find Tom’s comment about using shortening interesting in reference to the air bubbles on the bottom crust.  On Tuesday I did use Canola oil and still had those air bubbles on my second pizza.  As you know I did try MFB shortening in some of my Buddy’s attempts and some of them still have the air bubbles and some of them did not.  I find it intriguing what might cause those air bubbles.  pizzaboyjohn’s formulation for a Detroit-style pizza sounds very similar to what I am using with about the same hydration, but with he used sugar in his dough.   


Don’t you think that the before Buddy’s cheese and pepperoni pizza weight was even a little low, in comparison to my final bake weights of the clones I have been attempting? 

I don’t know what was wrong with my internet explorer last evening, but sometimes it did let me look at the internet last evening and sometimes it didn’t.  I tried to quote and post this reply and a reply to Craig’s post last evening, but for some reason it I couldn’t do it.  I couldn’t even look at the links from Tom Lehmann.  I finally gave up last evening.

I really don’t want to give to much of any opinions on how I liked the Buddy’s clone in comparison to what I have been attempting, but will say I like the crumb structure better in my attempts.  I don’t really want to butt heads with what is supposed to be the number 1 pizza in the country right now according to some reports and I haven’t tasted a freshly baked Buddy’s pizza.  I would purchase Buddy’s pizza if they were closer to me though.

I also forgot to post before in my initial report that the really good caramelization wasn’t there on the real Buddy’s pizza after the final baked.  It sure looked like it was there, but I couldn’t taste it and it wasn‘t that nice crunchy wonderful taste.  I thought that was strange too, but maybe from the shrinkage of the initial half-bake the sides with the cheese didn’t get that crunchiness. 

I don’t think I will change anything right now in my attempt to make a Detroit-style pizza.  I just want to try to get consistent results all the time.  My Buddy’s attempts really aren't clones, but are close enough for me.  On Tuesday market was really slow for all stand holders because of the snow, hunting season in our area and because it was a week right after a holiday.  It was interesting that 3 customers came back to purchase the Buddy’s clones I am trying out for market.  I had only eaten one slice out of the two test pizzas, so I did sell the customers slices.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 29, 2012, 07:45:30 AM
In the pictures, it looks like the sauce has some oil in it?

Craig,

I couldn’t detect any oil in Buddy’s sauce, by looking at it or tasting it. 

I don’t know if you ever have seen what I use in my market sauce though.  I do use olive oil with fresh crushed garlic, Italian seasoning, oregano and few ground red peppers which are microwaved first.  I then can’t detect any oil in my sauce.  I only use about 2 teaspoons of the mixture for a big can of Saporito.  I was given my recipe for sauce by a pizza business owner in my area.  The Saporito sauce I use needs added water and if you look at pictures of the sauce just applied on some of my pizzas I don’t think you would be able to see that I use oil in my market sauce.

Norma

Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 29, 2012, 07:53:05 AM
Bob is correct that there are places--and not only limited to the wikipedia article--that say that marinara sauce is used on Detroit style pizzas. However, like Craig, I have never found any evidence that any of the majors specializing in the Detroit style pizza, including Buddy's, Shield's, Loui's and Cloverleaf/Detroit Style Pizza Co, has ever stated that it uses a marinara sauce. Craig is also correct that the footnotes to the wikepedia article do not mention marinara sauce as the sauce used for the Detroit style pizza (I went down that dead end long ago). If any of the above companies ever said that they used marinara sauce for their Detroit style pizzas, that would have jumped out at me like a bolt out of the blue because it would have been an important revelation.

In Buddy's case, it does offer a marinara sauce (see a typical Buddy's menu at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/Carryout101.pdf). But it is for its pasta dishes, not for its pizzas and, as such, I assume that the marinara sauce is a cooked sauce. For its square pizzas, Buddy's only offers two sauces, the Original sauce and a Tomato Basil Sauce. They go on the pizzas last but prior to baking. By contrast, the Detroit Style Pizza Co apparently puts the sauce down after baking (http://detroit.ourcityradio.com/food-and-drink/world-champion-pizza-maker-to-launch-detroit-style-pizza-co). Via 313 also puts down the sauce after baking. What is not clear in the case of the Detroit Style Pizza Co is whether the sauce is cooked. What has been previously reported is that Cloverleaf Pizza, which is owned by the Detroit Style Pizza Co, uses a simmered sauce, as was noted in the Slice article at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/03/united-states-of-pizza-michigan-best-pizza-in-detroit-ann-arbor-upper-peninsula-flint.html. I have not been able to substantiate Ms. Rector's statement in the Slice article on the simmered sauce. However, we do know that Via 313's sauce is not a cooked sauce.

As for the use of oil in the Detroit style pizza sauces, I have not read anything to that effect. If Buddy's is using oil in its sauce, it most likely would be in a sauce as received from its supplier, such as Stanislaus. All we know about Buddy's sauce, other than some occasional references to the seasonings, is what a former Buddy's employee, lufty, reported in the quoted material in Reply 318 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3783.msg136795.html#msg136795.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 29, 2012, 09:11:51 AM
I received a return call from Joe Widmer yesterday while I was at the supermarket.  He left a message on my land line answering machine, but I didn’t find time to post about Joe’s call yesterday.  Joe said they do carry two brick cheeses.  The one is the stinky kind of brick cheese that has a powerful flavor and is packaged in a foil package.  Joe said the other brick cheese is very mild and is yellow.  After Joe said the mild brick cheese is yellow, I looked at the 1 lb. of Specialty brick cheese on Widmer’s website at  http://www.widmerscheese.com/products/Vac-Pack-Mild-Specialty-Brick-1-lb.html but then looked at the 5 lb. Specialty Brick Cheese at  http://www.widmerscheese.com/products/Vac-Pack-Whole-Mild-Specialty-Brick-5-lb.html and that brick cheese looks yellow, unless that is the type of wrapping they use that makes it look yellow. The 1 lb. Mild Specialty Brick sure looks white to my eyes.  He said the closest distributors to my area would be Euro USA in Cleveland, Ohio or also Euro USA in Sterling, Virginia.  Joe said I could check with either distributor to see if they might deliver in my area.  Joes also said I could buy direct from Widmer Cheese and they would ship to me.  If anyone want clarification on if the mild brick cheese is yellow, Joe gave me a direct toll-free number to him.  If anyone has any other questions about the Widmer’s brick cheeses I can also call Joe.  I don’t know if anyone thinks I should try to get samples of the brick cheeses to try on my Detroit-style pizzas. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 29, 2012, 09:25:27 AM
Norma,

I really don’t know how to do tests on the Buddy’s sauce but it tasted really good and fresh.  I would have thought it also was a Stanislaus tomato product.  As you probably know I do use Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce.  I really can’t tell if it was Saporito Super Heavy with water added, but don’t really think so because of those tiny bits of what looked like ground-up skins of tomatoes.  Does The Full Red with basil have those kind of tomatoes peel pieces in them?  I think I did use Full Red with basil at one time, but don’t recall those little pieces of whatever it was in the sauce.  I really couldn’t taste a lot garlic in Buddy’s sauce, but then I really taste it that much in mine either.

Did you note whether there were any basil leaves in the sauce on the Buddy's pizza, and did you note any bits of skin in that sauce? The reason I ask is because Buddy's offers two sauce choices for its square pizzas. One is called the Original and the other is called a Tomato Basil Sauce. I tend not to think that Buddy's adds the basil leaves to its sauce but rather it comes that way from its supplier. I wondered whether the sauce that you got in the small container was the Tomato Basil Sauce rather than the Original sauce, which may not have any basil leaves in it. The distinction is important since it would dictate the tomato products Buddy's gets from its supplier. For example, if you look at the "from scratch" tomato products from Stanislaus Products at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/products/real-italian-products/from-scratch-products, you will find some products that do have bits of skin in them, such as the 7/11 Ground Tomatoes and the Full Red Pizza Sauce (known in some areas as Full Red Concentrated Crushed). The latter product can also include basil leaves if desired. The descriptions for the Saporito and SuperDolce products do not make any reference to bits of skin in those products. The puree tomato products do not include any skin (or seeds).

Don’t you think that the before Buddy’s cheese and pepperoni pizza weight was even a little low, in comparison to my final bake weights of the clones I have been attempting?
 
Yes, I do, but unfortunately there is no way to calculate the full extent of the losses during baking because some of those losses took place during the partial baking of the Buddy's pizza. The "before" and "after" weights you provided suggest a loss during the final bake of 3.34%. If we assume that your "half baked" pizza sustained a similar loss during the partial baking, that would take us to 6.68%. If I used that number and worked backwards to a pre-baked weight, and used the standard amounts for cheese, pepperoni and sauce, the dough ball weight would be somewhere around 6 ounces. We know that can't be right. That said, I'd still like to see how a Buddy's emergency clone pizza using 9 ounces of dough turns out when baked in your deck oven at market with the standard amounts of brick cheese (or one of your blends), pepperoni and sauce.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 29, 2012, 10:18:47 AM
Joe said the other brick cheese is very mild and is yellow.  After Joe said the mild brick cheese is yellow, I looked at the 1 lb. of Specialty brick cheese on Widmer’s website at  http://www.widmerscheese.com/products/Vac-Pack-Mild-Specialty-Brick-1-lb.html but then looked at the 5 lb. Specialty Brick Cheese at  http://www.widmerscheese.com/products/Vac-Pack-Whole-Mild-Specialty-Brick-5-lb.html and that brick cheese looks yellow, unless that is the type of wrapping they use that makes it look yellow. The 1 lb. Mild Specialty Brick sure looks white to my eyes.
 
Norma,

I’m guessing it is that very pale yellow that you see in some softer, higher fat cheeses. I’d bet it’s not very yellow. You and I probably wouldn’t call it yellow if we saw it in person. He probably meant it’s not pure white like some cheddars. Just a guess.


Did you note whether there were any basil leaves in the sauce on the Buddy's pizza, and did you note any bits of skin in that sauce? The reason I ask is because Buddy's offers two sauce choices for its square pizzas. One is called the Original and the other is called a Tomato Basil Sauce. I tend not to think that Buddy's adds the basil leaves to its sauce but rather it comes that way from its supplier. I wondered whether the sauce that you got in the small container was the Tomato Basil Sauce rather than the Original sauce, which may not have any basil leaves in it. The distinction is important since it would dictate the tomato products Buddy's gets from its supplier. For example, if you look at the "from scratch" tomato products from Stanislaus Products at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/products/real-italian-products/from-scratch-products, you will find some products that do have bits of skin in them, such as the 7/11 Ground Tomatoes and the Full Red Pizza Sauce (known in some areas as Full Red Concentrated Crushed). The latter product can also include basil leaves if desired. The descriptions for the Saporito and SuperDolce products do not make any reference to bits of skin in those products. The puree tomato products do not include any skin (or seeds).
Peter,

There is an FDA standard of identity for tomato puree, pulp, paste, and concentrate (21 CFR 155.919). These products are not supposed to contain skin or seeds. There is no standard of identity for crushed or ground tomatoes (or pizza sauce) which is why they often, but not always, contains skin and seeds and can vary so much from manufacturer to manufacturer. I’m probably not telling you anything that you didn’t already know.

It strikes me as more than a little disingenuous when Stanislaus writes “made without skin or seeds” with respect to their puree. It also strengthens my suspicion that the “trace of skin and seeds” in the pizza sauce is more about cost than “homemade appearance.”

Craig
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 29, 2012, 10:23:41 AM
Norma,

Did you note whether there were any basil leaves in the sauce on the Buddy's pizza, and did you note any bits of skin in that sauce? The reason I ask is because Buddy's offers two sauce choices for its square pizzas. One is called the Original and the other is called a Tomato Basil Sauce. I tend not to think that Buddy's adds the basil leaves to its sauce but rather it comes that way from its supplier. I wondered whether the sauce that you got in the small container was the Tomato Basil Sauce rather than the Original sauce, which may not have any basil leaves in it. The distinction is important since it would dictate the tomato products Buddy's gets from its supplier. For example, if you look at the "from scratch" tomato products from Stanislaus Products at http://www.stanislausfoodproducts.com/products/real-italian-products/from-scratch-products, you will find some products that do have bits of skin in them, such as the 7/11 Ground Tomatoes and the Full Red Pizza Sauce (known in some areas as Full Red Concentrated Crushed). The latter product can also include basil leaves if desired. The descriptions for the Saporito and SuperDolce products do not make any reference to bits of skin in those products. The puree tomato products do not include any skin (or seeds).
 
Yes, I do, but unfortunately there is no way to calculate the full extent of the losses during baking because some of those losses took place during the partial baking of the Buddy's pizza. The "before" and "after" weights you provided suggest a loss during the final bake of 3.34%. If we assume that your "half baked" pizza sustained a similar loss during the partial baking, that would take us to 6.68%. If I used that number and worked backwards to a pre-baked weight, and used the standard amounts for cheese, pepperoni and sauce, the dough ball weight would be somewhere around 6 ounces. We know that can't be right. That said, I'd still like to see how a Buddy's emergency clone pizza using 9 ounces of dough turns out when baked in your deck oven at market with the standard amounts of brick cheese (or one of your blends), pepperoni and sauce.

Peter

Peter,

If you look at second, third and fourth pictures I posted at Reply 526 it looked to me like that was a part basil leaf on the Buddy’s pizza.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg225586.html#msg225586  I didn’t think about it at the time, but should have taken it off and tasted it to see if it really was basil or something else.

Whatever it was it also can be seen in the second picture at Reply 529 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg225589.html#msg225589   There is no way now that I can now investiage what it was.  No, I didn’t notice any bits of skin in the sauce in the Buddy‘s pizza.  I believe you are right that the extra sauce Buddy’s gave me was the Tomato Basil sauce.  Thanks for the links to the Stanislaus Products.  When Steve and I tasted the extra sauce it really had a great taste, but I sure don’t recall the sauce on the Buddy’s pizza having that same great taste, but just thought the taste changed somehow after the pizza had the final bake.  I didn’t think about it yesterday, but Steve and I could have scratched some of the sauce off of the Buddy’s pizza and tasted it before the final bake.  I can email Buddy’s to ask if the extra sauce was the same as used on a regular 4-square pizza if you want me to.  I have the email address to Dennis.

I can understand there can be no way to work back to what happened with weight losses in Buddy’s pizza.  I still have some of the Eddie’s brick cheese and can try an emergency dough using 9 ounces of dough with the standard amounts of brick cheese, pepperoni and sauce.  Do you mean that I would make the emergency dough in the morning before I go to market with 0.80% IDY?

I also wanted to post that I wrote Bobby at Armour-Eckrich Meat another email this morning.  I have not heard from Mike that was on vacation last week.  I just asked if there was any way I could obtain a small sample of the coarse grind pepperoni before I keep trying to find distributors in my area.  At least if I had a sample of the coarse grind pepperoni I could try it on my clone attempts and be able to weigh it more.

This is what Bobby replied to me in an email.

Hi Norma, Mike is back and catching up. The quickest way to get you a sample bag is thru the local broker in Philly. Unfortunatley, I do not have that contact number. I will get with Mike to see if he can expedite this project.

Sorry for the delay.
Bobby Koch

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 29, 2012, 10:30:05 AM
Norma,

I’m guessing it is that very pale yellow that you see in some softer, higher fat cheeses. I’d bet it’s not very yellow. You and I probably wouldn’t call it yellow if we saw it in person. He probably meant it’s not pure white like some cheddars. Just a guess.


Craig


Craig,

I believe you are right about the Widmer brick cheese.  I will call Joe for clarification to see if the Widmer's mild brick cheese is truly yellow.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 29, 2012, 10:44:22 AM
This is what Bobby replied to me in an email.

Hi Norma, Mike is back and catching up. The quickest way to get you a sample bag is thru the local broker in Philly. Unfortunatley, I do not have that contact number. I will get with Mike to see if he can expedite this project.

Norma, I worked for a foodservice brokerage for years. He's right that for manufacturers that use brokers (as opposed to a dedicated sales force), the best way to get samples or information is through the broker. Foodservice brokers typically have people that all they do all day is run around and deliver samples.

People are expensive, and nowadays, most manufacturers use brokers because it is often more cost effective than hiring their own sales force (Hormel, where I also worked, is a notable exception). As such, they typically don't have the resoures to deal with consumer questions and needs directly because they have outsourced that capacity to the brokers.

Craig
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 29, 2012, 10:57:40 AM
Norma, I worked for a foodservice brokerage for years. He's right that for manufacturers that use brokers (as opposed to a dedicated sales force), the best way to get samples or information is through the broker. Foodservice brokers typically have people that all they do all day is run around and deliver samples.

People are expensive, and nowadays, most manufacturers use brokers because it is often more cost effective than hiring their own sales force (Hormel, where I also worked, is a notable exception). As such, they typically don't have the resoures to deal with consumer questions and needs directly because they have outsourced that capacity to the brokers.

Craig



Craig,

Thanks for telling me about you working for a foodservice brokerage for years and what happens, how that works and that the best way to get samples or information is through the broker.  I learn a lot from you.  ;D 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Skee on November 29, 2012, 10:58:40 AM
I don't see where Buddy's, Shield's, or Detroit use the word "maranara" for their pizza either.
I think the misspelling is some Detroit thing - the Via313 menu uses it and I emailed them a long time ago about the "mistake" but they never responded or changed the menu.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 29, 2012, 11:01:50 AM
Norma,

If you look at second, third and fourth pictures I posted at Reply 526 it looked to me like that was a part basil leaf on the Buddy’s pizza.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg225586.html#msg225586  I didn’t think about it at the time, but should have taken it off and tasted it to see if it really was basil or something else.

Whatever it was it also can be seen in the second picture at Reply 529 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg225589.html#msg225589   There is no way now that I can now investiage what it was.

I saw the fleck of whatever it was. I thought that it might have been a dried herb in the seasoning that Buddy's uses in making the sauce.

No, I didn’t notice any bits of skin in the sauce in the Buddy‘s pizza.  I believe you are right that the extra sauce Buddy’s gave me was the Tomato Basil sauce.  Thanks for the links to the Stanislaus Products.  When Steve and I tasted the extra sauce it really had a great taste, but I sure don’t recall the sauce on the Buddy’s pizza having that same great taste, but just thought the taste changed somehow after the pizza had the final bake.  I didn’t think about it yesterday, but Steve and I could have scratched some of the sauce off of the Buddy’s pizza and tasted it before the final bake.  I can email Buddy’s to ask if the extra sauce was the same as used on a regular 4-square pizza if you want me to.  I have the email address to Dennis.

If you don't mind, I'd be interested in what Dennis might tell you, if he remembers what sauce he sent you. However, as I previously noted, and as is stated on the Buddy's menus, customers have a choice between the Original sauce and the Tomato Basil sauce. You might ask Dennis what the difference is between the two sauces. 

I can understand there can be no way to work back to what happened with weight losses in Buddy’s pizza.  I still have some of the Eddie’s brick cheese and can try an emergency dough using 9 ounces of dough with the standard amounts of brick cheese, pepperoni and sauce.  Do you mean that I would make the emergency dough in the morning before I go to market with 0.80% IDY?

That is what I was thinking if it is doable without messing up your schedule at market. As you have indicated, you have not seen a major difference between the emergency Buddy's clones and the non-emergency versions. If so, then you might find that an emergency version might be the one to use at market as the standard. It might not be based on a 9-ounce dough ball but some other weight. The 9-ounce dough ball test might tell us whether that is a viable weight.

I also wanted to post that I wrote Bobby at Armour-Eckrich Meat another email this morning.  I have not heard from Mike that was on vacation last week.  I just asked if there was any way I could obtain a small sample of the coarse grind pepperoni before I keep trying to find distributors in my area.  At least if I had a sample of the coarse grind pepperoni I could try it on my clone attempts and be able to weigh it more.
That would be great if you can swing it. Having the sample might also help you confirm whether you had the Margherita pepperoni on your Buddy's pizza. And maybe you will like it well enough to consider using it if the pricing is right and is readily available to you.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 29, 2012, 11:39:12 AM
Norma,

I saw the fleck of whatever it was. I thought that it might have been a dried herb in the seasoning that Buddy's uses in making the sauce.

If you don't mind, I'd be interested in what Dennis might tell you, if he remembers what sauce he sent you. However, as I previously noted, and as is stated on the Buddy's menus, customers have a choice between the Original sauce and the Tomato Basil sauce. You might ask Dennis what the difference is between the two sauces. 

That is what I was thinking if it is doable without messing up your schedule at market. As you have indicated, you have not seen a major difference between the emergency Buddy's clones and the non-emergency versions. If so, then you might find that an emergency version might be the one to use at market as the standard. It might not be based on a 9-ounce dough ball but some other weight. The 9-ounce dough ball test might tell us whether that is a viable weight.
That would be great if you can swing it. Having the sample might also help you confirm whether you had the Margherita pepperoni on your Buddy's pizza. And maybe you will like it well enough to consider using it if the pricing is right and is readily available to you.

Peter


Peter,

I wish I would have investigated the fleck more, but I didn’t.  I will email Dennis later today and see if he remembers what sauce he sent me.  I will also ask Dennis what the difference is between the Original Sauce and the Tomato Basil sauce.

I know I posted I have not seen any major difference in using an emergency Buddy’s dough and a non-emergency one.  Do you mean I would have to make the emergency dough at market each Tuesday morning or have frozen emergency doughs ready.  I think trying to mix emergency doughs in the morning at market would give me too many more dishes to wash and put away and also I would have to get earlier in the morning.  Don’t forget I am getting old and the day is long at market as it is.  I will use a 9 ounce dough for the emergency dough.  Does it matter if it is frozen, or should I make the emergency dough fresh on Tuesday morning?

Hopefully I can obtain a sample of the coarse grind pepperoni.  I will work on doing that.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 29, 2012, 11:42:09 AM
If anyone is interested I just spoke to Joe Widmer again.  He is going to send me samples of both brick cheeses to try.  I also asked about if the mild brick cheese is really a yellow color and he said no, but the mild brick cheese does have a slightly yellow color.  Joe said his grandmother preferred the stronger brick cheese on her pizzas.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 29, 2012, 12:49:03 PM
I know I posted I have not seen any major difference in using an emergency Buddy’s dough and a non-emergency one.  Do you mean I would have to make the emergency dough at market each Tuesday morning or have frozen emergency doughs ready.  I think trying to mix emergency doughs in the morning at market would give me too many more dishes to wash and put away and also I would have to get earlier in the morning.  Don’t forget I am getting old and the day is long at market as it is.  I will use a 9 ounce dough for the emergency dough.  Does it matter if it is frozen, or should I make the emergency dough fresh on Tuesday morning?

Norma,

Now I better understand what you are saying. Since the 9-ounce dough ball test is mainly to determine whether that is an amount that works, and maybe is close to what Buddy's is using, I think you can go with a frozen emergency dough version. I assume that you would make and freeze the test dough ball at home and let it thaw out on Monday at market for use on Tuesday. Is that correct?

If you end up selling your Detroit style clone pizzas at market, are you thinking of a one-day cold ferment version of the dough that is made at market on Monday for use on Tuesday?

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Tscarborough on November 29, 2012, 01:12:06 PM
I think the misspelling is some Detroit thing - the Via313 menu uses it and I emailed them a long time ago about the "mistake" but they never responded or changed the menu.

Via313 uses "Marinara" as a type of pizza (and it is now spelled correctly), they just say "fresh crushed tomato" for the actual sauce.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 29, 2012, 02:24:45 PM
Norma,

Now I better understand what you are saying. Since the 9-ounce dough ball test is mainly to determine whether that is an amount that works, and maybe is close to what Buddy's is using, I think you can go with a frozen emergency dough version. I assume that you would make and freeze the test dough ball at home and let it thaw out on Monday at market for use on Tuesday. Is that correct?

If you end up selling your Detroit style clone pizzas at market, are you thinking of a one-day cold ferment version of the dough that is made at market on Monday for use on Tuesday?

Peter




Peter,

I know the 9 ounce dough ball is only to test to see if that amount works.  You are correct that I will make that one dough ball at home and then take it to market thaw on Monday.  I could also make a quick emergency dough ball at home Tuesday morning if you want me to.   

I am thinking along the lines of doing a one-day cold ferment version of the dough that is made on market on Monday and used on Tuesday if the my customers like the Detroit-style pizzas   That would fall right in line with my NY style dough making now.   

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 29, 2012, 02:28:29 PM
Via313 uses "Marinara" as a type of pizza (and it is now spelled correctly), they just say "fresh crushed tomato" for the actual sauce.

Tom,

Thanks for posting that.  Did you ever try Via 313 "Marinara" pizza?  It sounds good to me.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Tscarborough on November 29, 2012, 02:45:18 PM
No, I always get the Detroiter for me or Italian Sausage and onions if I am taking it home because that is what Mama likes.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 29, 2012, 02:48:03 PM
I could also make a quick emergency dough ball at home Tuesday morning if you want me to.

Norma,

That would be fine also if you can manage it because it will be more in line with what I believe Buddy's does.

As a related aside, I thought that you might be interested in reading Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13048.msg142525.html#msg142525 over at the steel_baker Victory Pig Style Pizza thread. That post describes some of the factors that are involved in trying to make multiple room temperature dough batches throughout the course of a day while keeping things moving smoothly. In re-reading parts of the Victory Pig thread recently, I couldn't help but notice how many aspects that style of pizza shares with the Detroit style pizza and other pan style pizzas. Yet they all have something that uniquely differentiates them from the next guy's product. With Buddy's, it is the combination of a steel pan with steep sides, a high yeast, high hydration emergency type dough, the brick cheese and the way it forms a crispy dam around the sides of the pan, the placement of pepperoni slices under the cheese and the way that the sauce goes over the cheese in the form of dolloped stripes. And with the 4-square pizza, every slice is a corner slice with a crispy bottom crust yet a soft interior.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Skee on November 29, 2012, 03:06:24 PM
Via313 uses "Marinara" as a type of pizza (and it is now spelled correctly), they just say "fresh crushed tomato" for the actual sauce.
I guess I should go by and claim my free pizza for letting them know about the typo!
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Tscarborough on November 29, 2012, 03:12:56 PM
Meet you at 6th st at 6 tonight!
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Skee on November 29, 2012, 04:17:12 PM
Meet you at 6th st at 6 tonight!
I wish.  Week nights are impossible for me with two kids in school and working late to get through the end of the year.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Tscarborough on November 29, 2012, 08:54:06 PM
This is a Marinara with cheese (or a cheese pizza with garlic and EVOO).  It weighed 438 grams, and was damn good, even though it had cooled off a lot by the time I got it home to weigh.  The crust is a little thinner than normal, too.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 29, 2012, 11:11:39 PM
Norma,

That would be fine also if you can manage it because it will be more in line with what I believe Buddy's does.

As a related aside, I thought that you might be interested in reading Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13048.msg142525.html#msg142525 over at the steel_baker Victory Pig Style Pizza thread. That post describes some of the factors that are involved in trying to make multiple room temperature dough batches throughout the course of a day while keeping things moving smoothly. In re-reading parts of the Victory Pig thread recently, I couldn't help but notice how many aspects that style of pizza shares with the Detroit style pizza and other pan style pizzas. Yet they all have something that uniquely differentiates them from the next guy's product. With Buddy's, it is the combination of a steel pan with steep sides, a high yeast, high hydration emergency type dough, the brick cheese and the way it forms a crispy dam around the sides of the pan, the placement of pepperoni slices under the cheese and the way that the sauce goes over the cheese in the form of dolloped stripes. And with the 4-square pizza, every slice is a corner slice with a crispy bottom crust yet a soft interior.

Peter

Peter,

I also was over at the Victory Pig thread and few days ago and saw Apuleius post at Reply 13 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13048.msg142525.html#msg142525  I wonder if Buddy’s also might let the dough out of their mixer ferment some before the dough is cut, scaled, balled and put into the pans.  If they are making large amounts of dough the dough would probably ferment some until all the dough balls are scaled.  I wouldn’t think it would not matter though if the dough is left to ferment some, or the temper period takes care of the fermentation.  Buddy’s formulations I have been trying have a higher hydration than the formulation you set-forth in baker’s percents for steel_baker at Reply 63 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13048.msg161972.html#msg161972  steel_baker‘s formulation also has olive oil and sugar in the formulation.  I recall trying steel_baker’s formulation and liking it. I agree that Buddy’s pizza, Detroit style pizzas, different Sicilian and some Focaccia style pizzas share some of the same characteristics.  I also agree that each one has something that differentiates them from the next guy’s product.  I am glad PizzaHog and other members worked so hard on the “Detroit Style” Buddy’s thread so I can try to make a credible Buddy’s clone at market. 

As you probably know I am always looking for some different to offer at market that my customers might like.  I can only hope the Buddy’s clone might be it. 

This is just a little aside from what I have been doing in this thread, but this past Tuesday a customer came and wanted a Greek-style pizza in 30 minutes.  I didn’t have enough of the AMPI cheddar cheese grated and thought I was finished for the evening.  I thought to myself why not try to make it and not let the dough rise in the pan at all to see what would happen (I normally let the dough rise in the pan for a Greek-style pizza at least a half hour), so the customer could get their Greek style pizza.  I just grated some more of the AMPI cheddar cheese put the dough in the pan and made the Greek-style pizza.  I was surprised that it rose nicely without the tempering period.  I really don’t think a Buddy’s clone would fare as well with that method though.

I am just hoping if my customers like Detroit-style pizzas I can get everything together to be able to make them in addition to my normal NY style pizzas.  Making a few of these Detroit-style pizza is a lot different than to try and have them to offer all day with a tempering period and me being limited to as what I can do. 

Norma     
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 29, 2012, 11:22:24 PM
This is a Marinara with cheese (or a cheese pizza with garlic and EVOO).  It weighed 438 grams, and was damn good, even though it had cooled off a lot by the time I got it home to weigh.  The crust is a little thinner than normal, too.

Tom,

Thanks for posting a picture of the Marinara with cheese from Via 313.  That sure looks good to me and I wish I could have tasted it.  I wish I lived in your area so I could try different Via 313 pizzas.  ;D I wonder why the crust was thinner than normal, or if the temper time was as much.  Do you know if Via 313 uses different dough weights for their different dressing pizzas? 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 30, 2012, 10:11:20 AM
I recently saw a new flour at our local Country store and purchased a bag.  It is called Organic Sprouted Whole Grain Wheat Flour.  I thought it might be interesting to test the Organic Sprouted Wheat flour in a Detroit-style pizza to see what would happen.  I looked on Dutch Valley’s website, but since I didn’t know who manufactures the flour, their website didn’t help me.  I call my Country Store this morning to find out who manufactures the Organic Sprouted Whole Grain Wheat Flour.  Jamie told me Shiloh Farms produces the flour.  I looked on Shiloh Farms website at http://www.shilohfarms.com/products/Sprouted-Spring-Wheat-Flour%2C-Organic.html  I then called Shiloh Farms to see what the protein content was of the Organic Sprouted Whole Grain Wheat Flour and talked to Rob.  Rob said the protein content is anywhere between 12-14% and is usually nearer 14% and can be replaced on a one to one basis with regular flour.  The Organic Sprouted Whole Grain Wheat Flour is very fine.  Rob said if I have any other questions after I try the Organic Sprouted Whole Grain Wheat Flour in a formulation for pizza I can call him back and talked to the people that have studied how to make this flour.

I found it interesting that the grains used to make this flour have been sprouted to increase the bio-availability of nutrients that lay dormant in whole grain.  Enzymes, vitamins and minerals are released; starches and proteins are naturally reduced into the simple sugars, that are more easily absorbed into your body to provide your need for energy.

The Result: Essential Eating sprouted grain flour digests as a vegetable. Good digestion is key to good health. You'll notice the benefits in no time and soon, you'll be using SHILOH FARMS Essential Eating Sprouted Grain Flours in all your favorite recipes.

What I wanted to ask is if anyone thinks I should do anything differently with this flour when I try to make a Detroit-style dough.  I am going to make an emergency dough at home tomorrow with this flour.  The Detroit-style pizza is also going to be made at home tomorrow.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 30, 2012, 10:42:07 AM
It will be interesting to see what happens. Sprouting degrades gluten proteins starting with the glutenins which give strength to the dough. Given that whole wheat breads tend to be denser in general, I'm guessing it will make a fairly dense crust if you use it as 100% of your flour. 

I'm not sure I could bring myself to pay $2.69/lb for flour.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 30, 2012, 11:21:20 AM
It will be interesting to see what happens. Sprouting degrades gluten proteins starting with the glutenins which give strength to the dough. Given that whole wheat breads tend to be denser in general, I'm guessing it will make a fairly dense crust if you use it as 100% of your flour. 

I'm not sure I could bring myself to pay $2.69/lb for flour.

Craig,

Thanks for your ideas about the sprouting degrading gluten proteins starting with glutenins which give strength to the dough.  I know when I used some whole wheat flours before I needed to add more water to the formulation, or another flour. 

Really for all the money I paid for cheeses on some of my threads, I didn’t think 2.69 a lb. was too bad for the flour.  I don’t know how many pizzas this flour will make, but flour is cheaper than cheeses or other toppings in my opinion.  If this flour doesn’t work out, I will just chalk it up to a learning experience.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 30, 2012, 01:36:09 PM
I think this is a new article about Detroit-style pizza.  Detroit-style pizza really seems to be growing in popularity.

http://education.tmcnet.com/news/2012/11/30/6761095.htm

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 30, 2012, 03:03:54 PM
I think this is a new article about Detroit-style pizza.  Detroit-style pizza really seems to be growing in popularity.

http://education.tmcnet.com/news/2012/11/30/6761095.htm

Norma,

There is no doubt that the Detroit style pizza is growing in popularity, but I wouldn't try to read too much into the article you cited. It is basically a PR release that was attibuted to PRweb.com, which is the vehicle that Shawn Ranzazzo has used to promote his company, the Detroit Style Pizza Co, and the Detroit style pizza that his company promotes, along with that style of pizza that Cloverleaf Pizza, which his mother bought from the previous owners, makes.

The Detroit style pizza market is not all that large. According to the Pizza Today 2011 Hot 100 Independents list at http://www.pizzatoday.com/magazine/2012-october-independents-list, Buddy's annual sales are given as $20M. That is a number that I also found elsewhere from a research of corporate business data. Shield's annual sales are given as $6M. Elsewhere, I saw an annual sales figure for Loui's of about $1.1M. I was not able to find any data on annual sales for Cloverleaf or the Detroit Style Pizza Co. Neither is on the Pizza Today list although those companies may have chosen not to reply to the Pizza Today survey. Both Shield's and the Detroit Style Pizza Co have stated that they plan to expand their businesses, mostly through franchising. By contrast, Buddy's has grown its business organically. And it opens a new store only when business conditions and the economics justify it. With its national acclaim, they could easily have gone to a franchising model and done so successfully. Maybe that will happen some day but for now they seem to be content with things just as they are. Loui's is now run by Louis Tourtois' son (also named Louis), with no signs of expanding beyond their single store that was started by the elder Louis after he had spent 27 years with Buddy's and seven years at Shield's. He is now in his late 70s and putters around the store from time to time but it is his son who now actively runs the business.

By contrast, Jet's, which makes a square pizza with a lot of similarities to the Detroit style pizza but without calling it such, reported most recent annual sales of $231,462,400 (http://www.pizzatoday.com/magazine/2012-november-top-100-companies-list).

When I was reseaching the Detroit style pizza in general, I found that there were pizza operators specializing in the Detroit style pizza in several states outside of Michigan. Going strictly on memory, they include North Carolina, Colorado, California, Florida (a few locations), Minnesota, Texas, and Nevada. But, for the most part, they are one or two store operations. You can see the names of those stores at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit-style_pizza although that list should perhaps be updated to include Pizza Square in Tampa and Tony Gemignani's place in California.

So, yes, the Detroit style pizza is expanding its footprint but I would say that achieving parity with the New York style and/or the Chicago style pizza is a long way away, if ever. Creating demand for a product that most people don't even know they should have is a very difficult proposition that can consume a great deal of time, energy and money.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 30, 2012, 06:48:43 PM
Norma,

There is no doubt that the Detroit style pizza is growing in popularity, but I wouldn't try to read too much into the article you cited. It is basically a PR release that was attibuted to PRweb.com, which is the vehicle that Shawn Ranzazzo has used to promote his company, the Detroit Style Pizza Co, and the Detroit style pizza that his company promotes, along with that style of pizza that Cloverleaf Pizza, which his mother bought from the previous owners, makes.

The Detroit style pizza market is not all that large. According to the Pizza Today 2011 Hot 100 Independents list at http://www.pizzatoday.com/magazine/2012-october-independents-list, Buddy's annual sales are given as $20M. That is a number that I also found elsewhere from a research of corporate business data. Shield's annual sales are given as $6M. Elsewhere, I saw an annual sales figure for Loui's of about $1.1M. I was not able to find any data on annual sales for Cloverleaf or the Detroit Style Pizza Co. Neither is on the Pizza Today list although those companies may have chosen not to reply to the Pizza Today survey. Both Shield's and the Detroit Style Pizza Co have stated that they plan to expand their businesses, mostly through franchising. By contrast, Buddy's has grown its business organically. And it opens a new store only when business conditions and the economics justify it. With its national acclaim, they could easily have gone to a franchising model and done so successfully. Maybe that will happen some day but for now they seem to be content with things just as they are. Loui's is now run by Louis Tourtois' son (also named Louis), with no signs of expanding beyond their single store that was started by the elder Louis after he had spent 27 years with Buddy's and seven years at Shield's. He is now in his late 70s and putters around the store from time to time but it is his son who now actively runs the business.

By contrast, Jet's, which makes a square pizza with a lot of similarities to the Detroit style pizza but without calling it such, reported most recent annual sales of $231,462,400 (http://www.pizzatoday.com/magazine/2012-november-top-100-companies-list).

When I was reseaching the Detroit style pizza in general, I found that there were pizza operators specializing in the Detroit style pizza in several states outside of Michigan. Going strictly on memory, they include North Carolina, Colorado, Florida (a few locations), Minnesota, Texas, and Nevada. But, for the most part, they are one or two store operations. You can see the names of those stores at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit-style_pizza although that list should perhaps be updated to include Pizza Square in Tampa.

So, yes, the Detroit style pizza is expanding its footprint but I would say that achieving parity with the New York style and/or the Chicago style pizza is a long way away, if ever. Creating demand for a product that most people don't even know they should have is a very difficult proposition that can consume a great deal of time, energy and money.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for all the information about all the pizza businesses that serve Detroit style pizzas and telling me the Detroit style market really isn’t that large.

I just assumed when I read that Google Trends data demonstrates that the search volume for the term “Detroit Style Pizza” recently outpaced both “New York Style Pizza” and “Chicago Style Pizza” in relative search volume growth, peaking at 113 percent growth in the Food and Drink category for September 2012.  During the same month, "New York Style Pizza" posted relative search volume growth of 28 percent and "Chicago Style Pizza" relative search volume grew by six percent.  I then went on to read about the demand for Detroit Style Pizza among consumer and pizzerias alike has increased steadily since Detroit Style Pizza Co President Shawn Randazzo earned the pizza industry’s prestigious award.  I didn’t know that it was basically a PR release that was attributed to Rrweb.com, which is the vehicle that Shaw Ranzazzo has used to promote his company.

I should not have posted that link.  I don’t even know where to look at Google trends data.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on November 30, 2012, 07:11:58 PM
Norma,

There was no harm in your posting a link to the article you referenced. I was just trying to put it into perspective. To give you an idea as to what PRweb does, see http://service.prweb.com/go/psg_brand/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=psg_brand&mkwid=sIQDm7Spe&pcrid=19550752375&pmt=b&pkw=prweb&gclid=CIiJ44Pz97MCFSemPAod-SUA2A?

As for Google Trends, if you go to http://www.google.com/trends/, you can do your own search volume analysis. With all the searching I have done on the Detroit style pizza since you started this thread, maybe I am the one who has run up all of the Google search volume numbers :-D.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on November 30, 2012, 07:40:41 PM
Norma,

There was no harm in your posting a link to the article you referenced. I was just trying to put it into perspective. To give you an idea as to what PRweb does, see http://service.prweb.com/go/psg_brand/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=psg_brand&mkwid=sIQDm7Spe&pcrid=19550752375&pmt=b&pkw=prweb&gclid=CIiJ44Pz97MCFSemPAod-SUA2A?

As for Google Trends, if you go to http://www.google.com/trends/, you can do your own search volume analysis. With all the searching I have done on the Detroit style pizza since you started this thread, maybe I am the one who has run up all of the Google search volume numbers :-D.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the link to what Prweb does and also the link to Google Trends.  Those links were interesting.  I see when the cursor is put on the different places in Google trends, really there aren’t a lot of searches for Detroit style pizza.  It looks to me by Google trends that more searches are done for NY style pizzas over the same amount of time.  

I think I might have also run up some of the Google search volume numbers, because I also was trying to learn more about Detroit style pizzas (which I really didn’t know a lot about before, except for looking at the threads here on the forum).  You are probably way ahead of me in searching though.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on December 01, 2012, 11:10:04 AM
Norma,

As you can see in the photos referenced below, the Detroit Style Pizza Co is changing the names of its Cloverleaf Pizza stores:

Before (Saint Clair Shores location): http://stclairshores.patch.com/listings/cloverleaf-pizza

After (Saint Clair Shores location): https://plus.google.com/105355342414926541662/about?hl=en#105355342414926541662/about?hl=en

After (Clinton Township location): http://www.yelp.com/biz_photos/S8OEDY4QY0i6bvNSssdNbQ?select=_wj8qlc9OApIXo7gEipvgw#_wj8qlc9OApIXo7gEipvgw

From some further research, it appears that the two stores are mainly delcos (delivery and takeout) with a few tables for in-store dining. The annual sales numbers I found indicate less than $500K for each of the stores. I mention this to demonstrate the low sales volumes and how Shawn Randazzo has a steep mountain to climb to popularize the Detroit style pizzas outside of Michigan. He is certainly an enteprenuer so it will be intersting to plot his progress.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: shuboyje on December 01, 2012, 12:08:07 PM
Those changes actually happened a while ago.  Can't tell you exactly when, but it's been at least a year since the first time I noticed that Detroit Style Pizza sign on the St. Claire Shores location.  Both of these are exactly as you noticed, very small deliver carryout locations, I'm surprised to hear there are tables inside based on the size of the locations from the outside.

Those sales numbers are probably a bit misleading.  People in Detroit don't look to awards or accolades when it comes to Detroit style pizza, they go to the local joint they have always gone to.  In that sense Detroit Style Pizza Co.  is a newcomer and a nobody.  There are TONS of little guys making this type of pizza in every neighborhood that the internet will never hear of, but loyal locals have been eating there for years and will continue to.   
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 01, 2012, 12:26:51 PM
Peter and Jeff,

Thanks for the information about when Cloverleaf pizza stores changed over to the Detroit Style Pizza Co.

It is interesting Jeff that the sales numbers might be misleading.  I really don’t know that much about how many little guys are making a Detroit style pizza in every neighborhood that the internet will never hear of since I haven‘t been to that area of the country. 

Maybe there is too much hype about Detroit style pizza in other areas other than around Detroit right now.

I can see that Shawn Randazzo has a steep mountain to climb to popularize the Detroit style pizzas outside of Michigan.

Norma 
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on December 01, 2012, 01:18:21 PM
Those changes actually happened a while ago.  Can't tell you exactly when, but it's been at least a year since the first time I noticed that Detroit Style Pizza sign on the St. Claire Shores location.  Both of these are exactly as you noticed, very small deliver carryout locations, I'm surprised to hear there are tables inside based on the size of the locations from the outside.

Jeff,

It was at the Saint Claire location, shown at http://stclairshores.patch.com/listings/cloverleaf-pizza, where I saw that one of the little photos (the photo in the middle) shows some tables.

What confused me until quite recently is that at one time there were two places that had Cloverleaf in their names and made the Detroit style pizza. Shawn Randazzo and his mother owned two of them and changed the names to the Detroit Style Pizza Co, and there was a second place called Cloverleaf Bar & Restaurant that is run by members of the Guerra family and goes back to about 1953, when Gus Guerra bought the restaurant after he sold Buddy's. The website for that restaurant is http://www.cloverleafrestaurant.com/. That restaurant seems to be a full-service restaurant where the Detroit style pizza is but one part of what they serve. From what I can tell from a search of business data, Cloverleaf Bar & Restaurant appears to have annual sales of around $2.5M.

According to the Slice article at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/05/detroit-the-guerra-legacy-lives-on-at-cloverleaf.html, it sounds like the three Cloverleaf locations were related at one time but that the two smaller places were sold off to Shawn Randazzo's mother. Maybe that is why Shawn uses the Guerra name in much of his promotional materials.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 01, 2012, 02:07:57 PM
I mixed the Detroit style dough using the same formulation with 0.80% IDY and mixed the same way in my Kitchen Aid mixer, but instead of Occident flour, the Organic Sprouted Whole Grain Wheat Flour was used.  The dough did feel a little sticky, but it sure isn’t like regular doughs I have made on this thread.  The final dough temperature was 90.9 degrees F.  Poppy seeds were placed on the dough ball so I can see when it has doubled if it does.  The dough ball was formed at 1:14 PM and was scaled down to 9 ounces. 

I sure don’t know how this flour will work in a Detroit style pizza, but I am trying something else too.  I have wondered if it is really necessary to use brick cheese or cheddar on the edges to get the good caramelization on the edges.  For this attempt I am using diced Grande Italian Blend of cheeses which include skim mozzarella being listed first, cheddar second and then provolone cheese third and am using 8 ounces of the Grande blend.  I also weighed out 1.25 ounces of my regular Hormel pepperoni.  I didn’t want to mix a lot of sauce for and just used Classico Peeled Ground Tomatoes with oregano, Italian herbs and a little Kosher salt added.  I will weigh the baked pizza, but don’t think that will be too useful since I am using a different flour.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on December 01, 2012, 02:15:38 PM
Nice to see you experimenting(as always) Norma. I think your call on trying the Grande Italian blend with the skim mozz is going to give you maximum edge carmelization.  :chef:
Good luck!
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Ev on December 01, 2012, 02:18:37 PM
That's an interesting ball of dough you have there, Norma. Can't wait to hear how it turns out.
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 01, 2012, 02:38:55 PM
Nice to see you experimenting(as always) Norma. I think your call on trying the Grande Italian blend with the skim mozz is going to give you maximum edge carmelization.  :chef:
Good luck!

Bob,

I don't know if the Grande blend will give me good edge caramelization or not.  I will wait and see what happens.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 01, 2012, 02:40:03 PM
That's an interesting ball of dough you have there, Norma. Can't wait to hear how it turns out.

Steve,

Yep, is sure is an interesting dough ball.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 01, 2012, 02:40:59 PM
The dough ball did double in volume in an hour and now is spread in the pan.  The pan was oiled with Canola oil

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 01, 2012, 04:05:01 PM
The organic whole wheat flour in combination with the Grande blend did turn out well in an emergency dough.  The Detroit pizza with organic whole wheat flour was made within two hours after forming the dough ball.  I will post the rest of the pictures as soon as I resize them and do the rest of the report.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 01, 2012, 05:00:40 PM
This is the rest of the report about what happened when using Organic Sprouted Wheat Grain Wheat Flour and an emergency dough with the Grande cheese blend.  The experiment worked out well in my opinion.

The skin in the steel pan was dressed exactly 2 hrs. after the dough ball was formed.  The plastic lid was kept on the steel pan the whole time the dough was tempering.  The dough with the organic wheat flour was very easy to press out with my fingers.  I had put the steel pan on my one burner where it wasn’t really hot on top of my oven while it was heating to let it temper faster.  The pizza stone was on the bottom rack and the oven was heated for an hour.  The temperature of the pizza stone was 492 degrees F when I put the pizza into the oven. The dough tempered in the steel pan and I probably could have left it temper more, but I wanted to see if a decent Detroit style pizza could be made in 2 hrs. with this flour. 

I used 4.8 ounces of the Classico tomato sauce with herbs and Kosher salt added. 

I still don’t know if other cheeses can be used to make the nice caramelized edges, but the Grande blend did work. 

The first picture of the pizza in the oven was taken when the edge cheeses started to brown.  The second picture with the edges browning more was taken a little later.  The final bake time was 12 minutes 28 seconds and some odd seconds.

I don’t think it really matters, but the final bake weight of this pizza was 618 grams.

The crumb of this Detroit style pizza wasn’t as airy as some of my crumbs, but the nutty taste of the crumb was excellent in my opinion.  The crumb was also very soft.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 01, 2012, 05:01:57 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 01, 2012, 05:03:14 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 01, 2012, 05:04:24 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 01, 2012, 05:05:54 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 01, 2012, 05:07:21 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 01, 2012, 05:09:04 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Ev on December 01, 2012, 05:22:44 PM
That's a great looking pie Norma! How did it taste compared to your regular flour? You said "nutty" but was it better or worse overall?
 Would you pick me up a bag if you get a chance?
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 01, 2012, 05:30:01 PM
That's a great looking pie Norma! How did it taste compared to your regular flour? You said "nutty" but was it better or worse overall?
 Would you pick me up a bag if you get a chance?

Steve,

Thanks, what I meant was the nutty taste was really good in my opinion.  I liked it better than regular flour, but the crumb wasn't as airy. 

I will pick you up a bag on Monday.

I just ate a cold slice and it is even good that way.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on December 01, 2012, 05:59:11 PM
Norma,

It looks like Buddy's emergency dough method works well even for a whole wheat version. Maybe sometime you can try using a higher hydration to see if you can open up the crumb some more. I don't know if you remember this, but Buddy's has a whole grain option for its pizzas, apparently with a thinner crust according to its standard menu at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/Carryout101.pdf.

FYI, based on a dough ball weight of 9 ounces, 8 ounces of the Grande cheese blend, 1.25 ounces of pepperoni slices, and 4.8 ounces of pizza sauce, the unbaked pizza weight was 23.05 ounces. Based on the baked weight of 618 grams, or 21.8 ounces, the weight loss during baking was only 1.25 ounces, or 5.4%. It will be interesting to see what results you get when you make the 9-ounce dough ball with your Occident flour next week.

Recently, I did some searching to see if anyone in the Metro Detroit area was using Provolone cheese for the Detroit style pizza. I didn't do an exhaustive search but I did find one person, a chef for hire, who uses Provolone for his version of the Detroit style pizza. It looks like your Grande blend was effective in creating a crispy cheese around the perimeter of the pan.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on December 01, 2012, 06:19:31 PM
Norma, fine looking experiment with the sprouted wheat flour....I suspect a longer ferment would open up your crumb, no? I hope you enjoyed the taste of this current cheese blend you tried out.  :chef:
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 01, 2012, 08:33:06 PM
Norma,

It looks like Buddy's emergency dough method works well even for a whole wheat version. Maybe sometime you can try using a higher hydration to see if you can open up the crumb some more. I don't know if you remember this, but Buddy's has a whole grain option for its pizzas, apparently with a thinner crust according to its standard menu at http://www.buddyspizza.com/documents/Carryout101.pdf.

FYI, based on a dough ball weight of 9 ounces, 8 ounces of the Grande cheese blend, 1.25 ounces of pepperoni slices, and 4.8 ounces of pizza sauce, the unbaked pizza weight was 23.05 ounces. Based on the baked weight of 618 grams, or 21.8 ounces, the weight loss during baking was only 1.25 ounces, or 5.4%. It will be interesting to see what results you get when you make the 9-ounce dough ball with your Occident flour next week.

Recently, I did some searching to see if anyone in the Metro Detroit area was using Provolone cheese for the Detroit style pizza. I didn't do an exhaustive search but I did find one person, a chef for hire, who uses Provolone for his version of the Detroit style pizza. It looks like your Grande blend was effective in creating a crispy cheese around the perimeter of the pan.

Peter

Peter,

I thought the Buddy’s emergency dough method did work well for a whole wheat version.  I will try a higher hydration sometime to see if I can open the crumb up more.  I wanted to post that I only mixed the salt in with the warm water, the used the flat beater on the Kitchen Aid mixer and mixed on speed 3 for about 3 or a little more minutes, then hoped for the best.  I didn’t want to try and let the water hydrate in the flour at all just to see what would happen.  I think if I would have let the water hydrate into the flour more the whole wheat dough could have had a higher hydration. 

I didn’t recall that Buddy’s had a Multi-Grain Curst that was thinner.  I looked on Google and saw their Multi-Grain Crust is a “thinner crust” featuring 9 grains and a hint of honey.  I wonder if they use something like the Ultra-Grain flour that I have at home.  I think the one I tried with the organic wheat flour was a little thicker than Buddy’s Multigrain Wheat Crust on the second picture I copied, or least it appears that way.  Wesley Pikula says in this article that the nine-grain crust is made with nine whole grains, including flaxseed and millet, ground together and combined with wheat flour. http://www.freep.com/article/20110303/COL20/103030433/Sylvia-Rector-Buddy-s-square-pizzas-among-best-country

Thanks for doing the calculations on the numbers again to see how much weight loss there was in this recent pizza.  It was interesting that there was only 5.4% weigh loss after the bake.

I wonder why no one in the Metro Detroit area is not using any provolone in the mix of cheeses.  The Grande blend was effective in creating a crispy cheese around the perimeter of the pan.  I couldn’t even tell that much difference in the taste of the Grande blend in comparison with just brick cheese or using the AMPI mild cheddar and my mozzarellas.  I have to do an experiment sometime with only using mozzarella and maybe a whole mild mozzarella to see if that also browns around the perimeter and is crispy.  I sometimes wonder if it isn’t just the oil frying the cheese that melts along the sides of a steel pan is what makes the crispy cheese.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 01, 2012, 08:38:44 PM
Norma, fine looking experiment with the sprouted wheat flour....I suspect a longer ferment would open up your crumb, no? I hope you enjoyed the taste of this current cheese blend you tried out.  :chef:


Bob,

Thank you for your kind comment.  :) I think a higher hydration would have helped more than a longer ferment, but can't be sure.  I did enjoy the taste of the Grande Italian Blend.  Bob1 had given that to me this summer and I have tried it on some pizzas, but for some reason on this pizza it tasted different.  I don't know if how this pizza was baked made the change or not.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 02, 2012, 08:25:00 AM
I was thinking about maybe why cheese caramelizes with oil in a steel pan.  Doesn’t a pizzeria like Pequods in Chicago http://www.examiner.com/article/pequod-s-pizza-morton-grove-burnt-pizza-is-good and  http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2008/07/pequods-chicago-illinois-il-deep-dish-pizza-caramelized-crust.html or Burt’s http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/05/chicago-essential-burts-place.html also make a pan pizza that the edges caramelize in a different type of steel pan?  Aren’t both Pequods and Burt’s just using mozzarella to get the caramelized edges?

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on December 02, 2012, 09:14:22 AM
I didn’t recall that Buddy’s had a Multi-Grain Crust that was thinner.  I looked on Google and saw their Multi-Grain Crust is a “thinner crust” featuring 9 grains and a hint of honey.  I wonder if they use something like the Ultra-Grain flour that I have at home.  I think the one I tried with the organic wheat flour was a little thicker than Buddy’s Multigrain Wheat Crust on the second picture I copied, or least it appears that way.  Wesley Pikula says in this article that the nine-grain crust is made with nine whole grains, including flaxseed and millet, ground together and combined with wheat flour. http://www.freep.com/article/20110303/COL20/103030433/Sylvia-Rector-Buddy-s-square-pizzas-among-best-country

Norma,

There are quite a few places that sell multi-grain flour blends, for use by both commercial bakers and home bakers. From a miller's standpoint, ConAgra, which is the miller that produces the Occident flour that you have been using, offers several multi-grain flour blends although I did not see a 9-grain blend with flax seed. See, for example, http://www.conagramills.com/media/ConAgraMillsBrochure.pdf. ConAgra does, however, do custom milling but whether Buddy's volume is big enough to justify a custom blend is not clear. I would imagine that it would be easier for Buddy's to buy and existing 9-grain blend. Since you are an "old lady" beset with so many dietary, nutritional and allergy afflictions, you might send an email to Buddy's and ask them what grains are in their nine-grain blend so that you can assess whether any one or more of them will do you great harm :-D. Then you might be able to match up the mix with an existing product.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on December 02, 2012, 10:31:41 AM
I was thinking about maybe why cheese caramelizes with oil in a steel pan.  Doesn’t a pizzeria like Pequods in Chicago http://www.examiner.com/article/pequod-s-pizza-morton-grove-burnt-pizza-is-good and  http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2008/07/pequods-chicago-illinois-il-deep-dish-pizza-caramelized-crust.html or Burt’s http://chicago.seriouseats.com/2011/05/chicago-essential-burts-place.html also make a pan pizza that the edges caramelize in a different type of steel pan?  Aren’t both Pequods and Burt’s just using mozzarella to get the caramelized edges?

Norma,

I hear you and it appears to be true that Pequod's uses mozzarella cheese and does get caramelization of that cheese, but I think that, in general, there are six factors that you have to consider with respect to the caramelization of the cheese: the type of cheese used, the amount of the cheese, the physical form of the cheese (e.g., shredded or diced), whether the cheese as placed on the pizza is covered or exposed (in whole or in part), the bake temperature and the bake time. I don't know all of the details of a Pequod's pizza, including the amount of cheese used, but it looks to me that the cheese is largely covered during the baking of the pizza and, according to the article at http://www.bonnibella.com/2010/09/caramelized-crust-at-burts-place-and.html, it takes about 45 minutes to bake one of their pizzas. With such a long bake time, you are perhaps guaranteed that the cheese that is intentionally placed around the perimeter of the pan will be caramelized.

In the case of a Detroit style pizza, such as a Buddy's pizza, the cheese can be largely exposed except for some sauce stripes (for a basic cheese or similar pizza). And the bake time is much shorter than what Pequod's uses. Otherwise, the cheese would be burned and blackened beyond recognition.

As Mike at Klausie's noted in the article at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/09/behind-the-slice-klausies-pizza-truck.html, he espouses the proposition that there has to be the proper balance between melting of the cheese and its degree of browning so as to induce a nice crispy cheese at the perimeter of the pan. In the context of the Detroit style pizza, brick cheese seems to meet these requirements. Others believe (but not Mike) that a white cheddar cheese might also meet those requirements. As I noted previously, I did not see that nearly as much in the all-mozzarella cheese that Jet's uses on its square pizzas. See, for example, the modest caramelization of the mozzarella cheese at the perimeter of the pizza as shown at Reply 70 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg135948.html#msg135948. And that is for a pizza that is typically baked for about 8 minutes at a temperature below 500 degrees F (around 475 degrees F). I believe that we estimated that Jet's was using around 6 ounces of cheese. In that case, Im not sure how well the cheese would hold up (that is, not get overly browned) with even a few minutes more bake time.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 02, 2012, 12:49:58 PM
Norma,

There are quite a few places that sell multi-grain flour blends, for use by both commercial bakers and home bakers. From a miller's standpoint, ConAgra, which is the miller that produces the Occident flour that you have been using, offers several multi-grain flour blends although I did not see a 9-grain blend with flax seed. See, for example, http://www.conagramills.com/media/ConAgraMillsBrochure.pdf. ConAgra does, however, do custom milling but whether Buddy's volume is big enough to justify a custom blend is not clear. I would imagine that it would be easier for Buddy's to buy and existing 9-grain blend. Since you are an "old lady" beset with so many dietary, nutritional and allergy afflictions, you might send an email to Buddy's and ask them what grains are in their nine-grain blend so that you can assess whether any one or more of them will do you great harm :-D. Then you might be able to match up the mix with an existing product.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me that are quite a few places that sell multi-grain flour bends.  I know I am an
“old lady” apparently beset with so many dietary, nutritional and allergy afflictions, but that isn’t really me except the “old lady” part.  I didn’t even get a reply from Dennis when I asked him about the two different sauces last week, so I sure am not going to email Buddy’s to find out how I can match up the mix with an existing product.  That is way to much trouble.

For an “old lady” with all my afflictions Steve and I were out looking at a food truck for me today,  :-D but that one isn’t for me.  It was fun though driving that big food truck.  I am still thinking about a food truck.

If anyone is interested these are a few of pictures of the food truck Steve and I looked at and drove.

Norma   
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 02, 2012, 01:06:13 PM
Norma,

I hear you and it appears to be true that Pequod's uses mozzarella cheese and does get caramelization of that cheese, but I think that, in general, there are six factors that you have to consider with respect to the caramelization of the cheese: the type of cheese used, the amount of the cheese, the physical form of the cheese (e.g., shredded or diced), whether the cheese as placed on the pizza is covered or exposed (in whole or in part), the bake temperature and the bake time. I don't know all of the details of a Pequod's pizza, including the amount of cheese used, but it looks to me that the cheese is largely covered during the baking of the pizza and, according to the article at http://www.bonnibella.com/2010/09/caramelized-crust-at-burts-place-and.html, it takes about 45 minutes to bake one of their pizzas. With such a long bake time, you are perhaps guaranteed that the cheese that is intentionally placed around the perimeter of the pan will be caramelized.

In the case of a Detroit style pizza, such as a Buddy's pizza, the cheese can be largely exposed except for some sauce stripes (for a basic cheese or similar pizza). And the bake time is much shorter than what Pequod's uses. Otherwise, the cheese would be burned and blackened beyond recognition.

As Mike at Klausie's noted in the article at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/09/behind-the-slice-klausies-pizza-truck.html, he espouses the proposition that there has to be the proper balance between melting of the cheese and its degree of browning so as to induce a nice crispy cheese at the perimeter of the pan. In the context of the Detroit style pizza, brick cheese seems to meet these requirements. Others believe (but not Mike) that a white cheddar cheese might also meet those requirements. As I noted previously, I did not see that nearly as much in the all-mozzarella cheese that Jet's uses on its square pizzas. See, for example, the modest caramelization of the mozzarella cheese at the perimeter of the pizza as shown at Reply 70 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8247.msg135948.html#msg135948. And that is for a pizza that is typically baked for about 8 minutes at a temperature below 500 degrees F (around 475 degrees F). I believe that we estimated that Jet's was using around 6 ounces of cheese. In that case, Im not sure how well the cheese would hold up (that is, not get overly browned) with even a few minutes more bake time.

Peter


Peter,

I had no idea that Pequod’s pizza took 45 minutes to bake.  :o Thanks for that link.  I wonder why they need such a long bake them for their pan pizzas.

Thank you for the link to Mike’s on Slice too.

I know I really don’t have any problems so far with the brick cheese or the AMPI mild cheddar and mozzarellas I have been using in getting the nice crispy cheese at the perimeters of the pan.  I didn’t have problems with the Grande blend either.  One of these days I am going to try just mozzarellas to see what happens, even with looking at the modest caramelization of the mozzarella cheese at the perimeter on PizzaHog’s post of the Jet‘s pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 03, 2012, 10:28:03 AM
I had mixed one Buddy’s clone dough ball and froze it.  I did scale it down to 9 ounces and placed the poppy seeds on the dough ball so I could see how much it ferments until tomorrow.

I also tried to dice some of the Eddies brick cheese in my cheaper Hamilton Beach food processor.  I first cut the little over 8 ounces of brick cheese into four pieces and first pulsed it some then used speed one and two to dice some more.  Using the food processor worked reasonably well, but the brick cheese is softer than cheddar or mozzarellas and my food processor isn‘t the best.  It really doesn’t look exactly diced as Buddy’s cheese does, but at least it is diced.  I am going to use this diced brick cheese on the emergency dough tomorrow to see if diced cheese will have any effect on the final bake weight.  I am also going to scale 2 Buddy’s clone dough balls I make at market today to 9 ounces and then add some different combinations of AMPI mild cheddar and mozzarellas shredded to see what those final bake weights are and see if shredded cheeses make any differences in the final bake weights if I have time to do that all.

I only have a little more than enough of the Eddies brick cheese for one other attempt on a small Buddy‘s attempt.  I am not sure how I will use it, or if there might be other tests I can use for it. 

I also made sort of a “goody bag” to mix the emergency Buddy’s clone dough ball to save me a little time tomorrow morning using 0.80% IDY.  The IDY was just place on top of the flour and the Kosher salt was put into Glad cling wrap and place on top of the flour too.  I just have to weigh out the water tomorrow morning and mix.  I placed the Kosher salt in the Glad cling wrap because I want to mix it into the water.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on December 03, 2012, 01:41:12 PM
Norma, did you put the Eddies brick cheese in the freezer for about 30 min before you diced it? For the size processor you have there I think you might get larger dice if you cut your chunks just a little bit smaller.  :chef:
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 03, 2012, 05:11:41 PM
Norma, did you put the Eddies brick cheese in the freezer for about 30 min before you diced it? For the size processor you have there I think you might get larger dice if you cut your chunks just a little bit smaller.  :chef:

Bob,

Thanks for your advice of what to try again if I decide to dice brick cheese again. 

This was my first attempt to dice brick cheese or any cheese in the food processor.  My bowl for my food processor is pretty large, but my food processor isn‘t as good as some.

Did you have time to try out Klausie’s Detroit style pizza yet?

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 03, 2012, 05:18:39 PM
These are the two Buddy’s clone dough balls that were scaled to 9 ounces at market today.  I had first placed them in the deli case, but decided to let them ferment at room temperature while I was working.  I don’t know why I did it, but poppy seeds were placed on the one dough ball.

I had a leftover Buddy’s dough ball from two weeks ago and it was defrosted last week and again this week.  I had some leftover Buddy’s dough today from scaling the 2 dough balls to 9 ounces.  I just put the leftover dough with the dough ball that was defrosted two times.  I am going to ball at home and scale that dough to 9 ounces and if I have time, will try to see what happens with it tomorrow.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on December 03, 2012, 08:00:58 PM
Bob,

Thanks for your advice of what to try again if I decide to dice brick cheese again.  

This was my first attempt to dice brick cheese or any cheese in the food processor.  My bowl for my food processor is pretty large, but my food processor isn‘t as good as some.

Did you have time to try out Klausie’s Detroit style pizza yet?

Norma
No Norma, I haven't made it to Klausies yet and I am glad because the past few day's of posts here have given me more ideas on what to talk to Mike about....he is going to be at my favorite tavern/music hall later this week and I intend to make an appearance... 8)
Will give full report young lady!  ;)

Bob
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 03, 2012, 08:29:09 PM
No Norma, I haven't made it to Klausies yet and I am glad because the past few day's of posts here have given me more ideas on what to talk to Mike about....he is going to be at my favorite tavern/music hall later this week and I intend to make an appearance... 8)
Will give full report young lady!  ;)

Bob

Thanks Bob!  ;)  Are you going to try Mike's Detroit style pizza after you talk to him?

Norma

Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Chicago Bob on December 03, 2012, 08:43:54 PM
Thanks Bob!  ;)  Are you going to try Mike's Detroit style pizza after you talk to him?

Norma


But of course...major part of mission, my little getting close to Buddy's clone expert!  :chef:
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 03, 2012, 09:09:26 PM
But of course...major part of mission, my little getting close to Buddy's clone expert!  :chef:

Bob,

Good luck finding out what you can and also finding out if you like Detroit style pizzas.   8)

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 03, 2012, 09:18:41 PM
Dough ball right after it was scaled to 9 ounces and balled and how it looks a couple of hrs. later.  The dough had felt clammy and wet, but after the reball it feels okay, but I don’t know how it will ferment after the two freezes.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 04, 2012, 06:52:56 AM
The dough ball that was frozen two times seems to be fermenting some until this morning.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2012, 07:09:46 AM
Norma,

If the twice-frozen, twice-defrosted dough ball started out with enough yeast and did not ferment for long once it was defrosted, I think it should be OK. Also, the new piece of leftover dough from your latest batch will add a bit more yeast to the final dough.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 04, 2012, 07:23:58 AM
Norma,

If the twice-frozen, twice-defrosted dough ball started out with enough yeast and did not ferment for long once it was defrosted, I think it should be OK. Also, the new piece of leftover dough from your latest batch will add a bit more yeast to the final dough.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me that you think the twice defrosted dough ball should be okay if it did not ferment for too long when it was defrosted.  It was sitting out yesterday for about 3 hrs. yesterday until I added the piece of dough leftover from yesterday.  I also thought the new piece of leftover dough would provide a little more yeast.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 04, 2012, 07:24:30 AM
The emergency Buddy’s dough was mixed and was balled by 7:00 AM this morning.  The final dough temperature was 86.8 degrees F.  The emergency dough ball is 9 ounces.  Poppy seeds were placed on the dough ball.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 04, 2012, 10:45:42 AM
Do you use tweezers to get the placement that precise?
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 04, 2012, 08:40:46 PM
Do you use tweezers to get the placement that precise?

Craig,

No, I don't use tweezers to put the poppy seeds on the dough balls.  The poppy seeds move fairly easy when the dough ball is oiled.  I just try to get two poppy seeds stuck to my finger and then move them. Sometimes a few stray poppy seeds do fall on the sides of the dough ball.  I just leave them there until I am ready to take the dough ball out of the plastic container.  

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 04, 2012, 08:49:06 PM
I don’t know if anyone is in the mood for guessing games, or might want to guess which Buddy’s clone pizza only had mozzarellas on the pizza and no brick cheese, or no combination of AMPI mild white cheddar and mozzarellas, but these are the five small Detroit style pies made today and the one pizza only had mozzarellas added as the cheeses.  The rim still caramelized the same using only mozzarellas.

I will give a clue and it isn’t the Buddy’s clone that doesn’t have the same height.

Sorry, there is a smear in most of my pictures from today, but I guess that was from my greasy finger getting on the camera lense.  I only noticed that greasy mark near the end of the night.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 04, 2012, 08:50:49 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2012, 09:17:17 PM
Norma,

Without knowing weights of the ingredients and bake temperatures and times, I would guess that the last pizza was the one with only the mozzarella cheeses. My second pick would be the first pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 04, 2012, 09:34:11 PM
Norma,

Without knowing weights of the ingredients and bake temperatures and times, I would guess that the last pizza was the one with only the mozzarella cheeses. My second pick would be the first pizza.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for guessing, but neither of your guesses are correct. 

If you want to know about final bake weights, the first pizza was 587 grams when baked and the last pizza was 578 grams when weighed after the final bake.  The first and last pizzas had 8 ounces of cheese or cheeses added and 4 ounces of sauce.  They were the only final bake weights I took.  The first pizza had only brick cheese (8 ounces) and the last pizza had a blend of 5 ounces of AMPI mild white cheddar and 3 ounces of two mozzarellas.  Both the first and last pizzas had 1.25 ounces of pepperoni under the cheese, or cheeses.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 04, 2012, 09:36:00 PM
My friend Dave at market made me a nice birthday present today.  He made me a sign for the parking lot. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2012, 09:42:21 PM
Norma,

I was going mainly by the color of the cheeses after baking rather than on the caramelization of the cheeses.

Were you happy with the results and did you have a favorite among the five pizzas?

Happy Birthday!!

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Ev on December 04, 2012, 09:56:54 PM
I don't know about Norma, but my fave was the bacon topped pie. The bacon was so good it completely compensated for the fact that both Norma and myself forgot to put any sauce on the pizza! It really was that good!
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 04, 2012, 09:58:09 PM
Norma,

I was going mainly by the color of the cheeses after baking rather than on the caramelization of the cheeses.

Were you happy with the results and did you have a favorite among the five pizzas?

Happy Birthday!!

Peter

Peter,

The second pizza was made only with mozzarellas.  I didn’t know you were going by the color of the cheeses after baking rather than the caramelization of the cheeses on the sides.  Did you think the mozzarellas would caramelize the sides about the same as the brick cheese or the AMPI mild white cheddar and mozzarellas?   

I was very happy with the results today.  All the pizzas were really good, but I am still stumped on a few things.  I think my favorite of all five pie made today was the one made with the applewood smoked bacon.

Thanks for the Happy Birthday wish.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2012, 10:02:10 PM
I was recently looking at the menu at Tony's Pizza Napoletana, at http://www.tonyspizzanapoletana.com/includes/menu/Fall%20Winter%202012%20proof%206-1.pdf, and was confused about the cheeses used on their Detroit style pizza. The menu says "Wisconsin brick mozzarella, white cheddar". I couldn't tell whether there was an error in the menu that made it unclear on the number of cheeses used (two or three?). So, I sent an email asking for clarification. Tonight I received a response that said that the cheeses used for Tony's Detroit style pizza are Wisconsin brick and white cheddar. The woman who sent me the response admitted that the menu wasn't entirely clear and could be confusing, and thanked me for bringing that to their attention.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 04, 2012, 10:03:33 PM
I don't know about Norma, but my fave was the bacon topped pie. The bacon was so good it completely compensated for the fact that both Norma and myself forgot to put any sauce on the pizza! It really was that good!

Steve,

That was my favorite too!   ;D  You are right that we forgot to add the sauce, but maybe sometimes mistakes can lead to something good.

Steve also brought me a new device to get my pans out of the oven today.  Thanks Steve!  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 04, 2012, 10:10:31 PM
I was recently looking at the menu at Tony's Pizza Napoletana, at http://www.tonyspizzanapoletana.com/includes/menu/Fall%20Winter%202012%20proof%206-1.pdf, and was Confused about the cheeses used on their Detroit style pizza. The menu says "Wisconsin brick mozzarella, white cheddar". I couldn't tell whether there was an error in the menu that made it unclear on the number of cheeses used (two or three?). So, I sent an email asking for clarification. Tonight I received a response that said that the cheeses used for Tony's Detroit style pizza are Wisconsin brick and white cheddar. The woman who sent me the response admitted that the menu wasn't entirely clear and could be confusing, and thanked me for bringing that to their attention,

Peter


Peter,

Thanks for the link to Tony’s Pizza Napolentana.  Thanks also for emailing and asking for clarification if they use Wisconsin brick and white cheddar.

Although the Buddy’s clone pizza today that was made with all mozzarellas was good, the brick cheese or the AMPI mild cheddar and mozzarellas are better.   I still think Steve and I are too used to using cheddars on some pies though.

Norma  
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 04, 2012, 10:18:21 PM
Peter,

I wonder what size those Detroit style pies are from Tony’s Pizza Napolentana.  They sure are expensive.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2012, 10:21:12 PM
The second pizza was made only with mozzarellas.  I didn’t know you were going by the color of the cheeses after baking rather than the caramelization of the cheeses on the sides.  Did you think the mozzarellas would caramelize the sides about the same as the brick cheese or the AMPI mild white cheddar and mozzarellas?    

Norma,

The mozzarella cheeses I use are supermarket low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheeses and if I am not careful in my home oven, the cheeses can brown too much and look like the two pizzas that I mentioned. I couldn't tell from the photos which of your pizzas had the greatest degree of caramelization. I was looking for a balance of the coloration of the cheeses and the caramelization of the cheeses at the perimeters of the pizzas. My reference is the photos of the Buddy's pizzas that I have seen and that show the distinct caramelization of the cheese but where the rest of the cheese is fairly light in color. Of course, Buddy's uses an infrared conveyor and a bake temperature that is around 495 degrees F. Do you recall what bake temperature you used?

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2012, 10:31:42 PM
I wonder what size those Detroit style pies are from Tony’s Pizza Napolentana.  They sure are expensive.

Norma,

I would guess that the size is 10"x14". I believe that that is the size that is shown in the article at http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/2011/04/25/oh-yes-tonys-pizza-has-detroit-style-pie/. The article was about Tony's slice shop, not his larger restaurant. You will note that the cheese description is correctly given in the photo in the article.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2012, 10:38:46 PM
Steve also brought me a new device to get my pans out of the oven today.  Thanks Steve!  ;D

Norma,

FYI, the Detroit Style Pizza Co sells a gripping tool at their website at http://detroitstylepizza.co/detroit-style-pizza-pans/. However, the gripper that Steve gave you looks to be considerably more durable. I think you can also use it to pull teeth in your spare time.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 04, 2012, 10:43:37 PM
Norma,

The mozzarella cheeses I use are supermarket low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheeses and if I am not careful in my home oven, the cheeses can brown too much and look like the two pizzas that I mentioned. I couldn't tell from the photos which of your pizzas had the greatest degree of caramelization. I was looking for a balance of the coloration of the cheeses and the caramelization of the cheeses at the perimeters of the pizzas. My reference is the photos of the Buddy's pizzas that I have seen and that show the distinct caramelization of the cheese but where the rest of the cheese is fairly light in color. Of course, Buddy's uses an infrared conveyor and a bake temperature that is around 475 degrees F. Do you recall what bake temperature you used?

Peter

Peter,

All the Buddy’s clone pizzas today had about the same amount of caramelization, except the one that wasn’t the same in height.  The one that wasn’t the same in height (was a lot less in height) was from the one Steve and I forgot to add the sauce (not the applewood smoked bacon one) and took it out of the oven to add the sauce.  I said to Steve what if all the yeast cells haven’t been killed yet and will the pizza still rise if we take it out of the oven and put the sauce on. We both didn’t know what would happen.  I saw then when the pizza was finished baking that it was a lot lower in height and didn’t figure out why until much later and then used another dough ball that rose the same as the others.  I guess somehow we really messed-up on that one, but at least I know now not to take a Detroit style pizza out of the oven to add sauce.  :-D  It was learning experience.  The crumb on that pizza was very light though and had a nice texture.  The pizza that didn’t rise as much I did use AMPI mild cheddar and two mozzarellas as the cheeses.

I think the mozzarellas I use are good mozzarellas because they are foodservice mozzarellas and don‘t brown too much too fast. 

I will post the other pictures tomorrow and do a report on all that happened.  I still don’t know, but what has me stumped is that the Buddy’s clones that were fermented the longest in the steel pans had the nicest bottom crusts and were the crispest.  I used Canola oil to oil all my pans today, but those results were a little confusing. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 04, 2012, 10:47:35 PM
Norma,

FYI, the Detroit Style Pizza Co sells a gripping tool at their website at http://detroitstylepizza.co/detroit-style-pizza-pans/. However, the gripper that Steve gave you looks to be considerably more durable. I think you can also use it to pull teeth in your spare time.

Peter

Peter,

I think I have a gripping tool like Detroit Style Pizza Co sells on their website, but I didn't have time to look for it today.  The gripper Steve gave me sure is study.  I don't think Steve and I want to get into a new career anytime soon.  :-D  We are too busy trying to figure out different pizzas.

Norma

Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 04, 2012, 10:51:05 PM
Norma,

I would guess that the size is 10"x14". I believe that that is the size that is shown in the article at http://insidescoopsf.sfgate.com/blog/2011/04/25/oh-yes-tonys-pizza-has-detroit-style-pie/. The article was about Tony's slice shop, not his larger restaurant. You will note that the cheese description is correctly given in the photo in the article.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the link to the article about the size of the pizzas at Tony's slice shop.  I did note that the cheese description is correctly given in the article.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Tscarborough on December 04, 2012, 11:20:57 PM
Mmmm....Bacon....
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 04, 2012, 11:26:33 PM
Mmmm....Bacon....

Tom,

That is the same thing Steve and I said.  :-D  We both love bacon too, but with this type of pizza it sure adds fats.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 05, 2012, 09:19:29 AM
This post is to explain more about what happened with the Buddy’s clone dough balls and 5 pizza attempts with the Buddy’s clone dough balls. 

The emergency dough ball that was made yesterday morning with 0.80% IDY was left at room temperature to ferment.  I am not exactly sure of the ambient room temperature, but it was warm inside market yesterday and would guess the ambient room temperature was around 75 degrees F.  I had looked at the poppy seeds spacing at about 10:20 AM and the poppy seeds spacing at more than doubled.  As can be seen in the second picture I had dropped a couple of small poppy seeds when trying to place the poppy seeds on the dough. 

I tried yesterday on the first four dough balls to just put them in the oiled (Canola oil) steel pans and not flour the dough ball at all to see what would happen.  I had done that at home and at market before, but wanted to see which way the dough would press out easier.  I know I did flour the dough ball some before and it seemed like that was the best way to get the skin to stick to the corner edges.  Steve kept telling me to flour the dough ball first, but I kept telling him I wanted to see which method worked best.  When the dough ball is just placed in the steel pan sometimes the dough sure doesn’t press out as well and wants to slip and slide some in the steel pan.  I also wanted to see if the crumb texture, or final baked height would be different. 

The last dough ball was floured a little and was started to be opened on the bench.  That method seems to work the best in keeping the skin from sliding and also makes it much easier to make the edges stick to the steel pan.  There doesn’t seem to make any difference in how the skin ferments, or what the texture of the final crumb is though in using either method.

My top deck oven temperature was running around 538 degrees F on some spots when the pizzas were baked, but I didn’t take the oven temperatures for all of the bakes.  I only took the amount of minutes the first and last pizza took to bake.  The other ones were just watched to see when I thought they were finished baking.  The bake time for the first pizza was 12 minutes 38 seconds and for the last pizza the bake time was 12 minutes 50 seconds. 

As I posted before 8 ounces of diced brick cheese was used on the first pizza and 5 ounces of AMPI mild white cheddar and 3 ounces of my mozzarellas were used on my last pizza.  Both pizzas had 4 ounces of sauce and 1.25 ounces of pepperoni put under the sauce.   The first pizza weighed 587 grams right out of the oven and the last pizza weighed 578 grams right out of the oven.

I had wanted to bake the first emergency Buddy’s clone pizza before I did, but was too busy.  It was baked at about 1:00 PM.  The last Buddy’s clone pizza was baked at about 6:30 PM.

All the dough balls I used yesterday were scaled down to 9 ounces.

I had posted before I had signed-up for Buddy’s email club for specials and last week received an email that wished me a Happy Birthday and if I would have lived in the Detroit area would have been able to receive a 4 Square Cheese Pizza for my birthday free, or would have been able to receive a 10% discount on any Dine-in, All-You-Can-Eat Dinner Party Package when a birthday is celebrated at Buddy Pizza.  That offer would have been valid until December 26 and had a certificate number to print out.  I liked the picture of what Buddy’s sent me so I copied it. 

I had also talked to Tom Kiefer yesterday morning and he said he had called about the brick cheese for me, but didn’t still know who the producer was.  Tom said he should have that information next Tuesday. 

Jim, the manager of the Old Mill antique and flea market tried a slice of the one Buddy’ clone pizza yesterday.  Jim has tried many of my experimental pizzas and my regular pizzas.  Jim said the Detroit-style pizza is the best I have made yet.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 05, 2012, 09:23:50 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 05, 2012, 09:25:32 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 05, 2012, 09:26:50 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 05, 2012, 09:28:31 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 05, 2012, 09:30:24 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 05, 2012, 09:33:00 AM
The second Buddy’s clone dough ball wasn’t left to ferment until the poppy seeds spacing had doubled, but the dough when looking at it in the container did look like it had doubled, at least to my eyes.  I had placed that dough ball in a smaller container so really don’t know how accurate the poppy seeds spacing is in a smaller container.  The rest of the ferment was done in the steel pan.  For the second Buddy’s clone attempt I had wanted to see if my regular mozzarellas would caramelize about the same as brick cheese, or AMPI mild white cheddar and mozzarellas.  I had thought they would, but wasn’t really sure.  I thought my regular mozzarellas did caramelize the edges well and made crispy edges too.  I almost always have to see what works and what doesn’t.  The second pizza was made with pepperoni on the top, instead of under the cheese.  That way seems to work well too.  Dave, the man that does drawings for me also said he likes the Detroit-style pizzas the best.  He also had a slice yesterday.  

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 05, 2012, 09:34:51 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 05, 2012, 09:36:13 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 05, 2012, 09:38:53 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 05, 2012, 09:47:07 AM
As I posted last evening the third Buddy’s clone attempt didn’t rise in height like the others did yesterday.  For awhile I wondered what happened with that pizza did not rise as much in the bake.  As I also posted I think now why that pizza didn’t get the same in height was because Steve and I forgot to add the sauce.  I really don’t know, but guess somehow the yeast might have been killed, or partly killed when I removed that pan from the oven to add the sauce.  It can be seen on the first picture of how the cheese had started to melt when the pizza really wasn’t in the oven for that long.  AMPI mild white cheddar and mozzarellas were used as the cheese on this pizza.  The texture and crumb were good and moist though.  I would have thought that the yeast would activated somehow when the pizza was placed in the oven again, but guess I won’t really understand that part, but it was a learning experience.  The cheeses didn’t caramelize as much on that pizza either.  When I mess-up it makes me wonder more what really happened that the cheeses didn‘t caramelize as much either.  :-\ The dough in the pan had risen nicely, but I didn’t take any picture of that.

Norma 
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 05, 2012, 09:52:24 AM
The fourth Buddy’s clone attempt was made using the same AMPI mild white cheddar and mozzarellas, but Steve and I baked applewood smoked bacon in the oven first for that pizza.  We also forgot to add sauce to that pizza, but it really didn’t need it.  I sure don’t know why, but this pizza and the last pizza I made for the day had a much crisper bottom, although it still was very easy to bite.  The dough fermented in the steel pans longer for those last two bakes, so I wonder if somehow the longer ferments make the bottom crisper and a little bit browner.  I am still trying to figure that out and it has me stumped.  The texture of the crumb was better too on the last two bakes. 

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 05, 2012, 09:54:06 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 05, 2012, 09:55:41 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 05, 2012, 09:56:42 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 05, 2012, 09:59:28 AM
These reports are getting too long and might confuse other members on what was done, but if there are any questions just ask. 

The final 5th pizza was baked and turned out well.  Steve and I liked the whole 4th and 5th pizzas the best of the day.  I never thought trying to make Detroit-style pizzas would be such a learning process.  :o

Crazy Dave sure was eying up that last pizza..lol.

My granddaughter and her family brought me a pizza gift yesterday to market.  It is a tiny pizza cast iron pan with ingredients to make a pizza.  Guess I will be experimenting more with that tiny pizza cast iron pan and ingredients.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 05, 2012, 10:02:05 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 05, 2012, 10:04:48 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 05, 2012, 10:07:31 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 05, 2012, 10:09:34 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 05, 2012, 10:11:52 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 05, 2012, 11:14:08 AM
If anyone is interested, I saw this article on facebook today about Buddy’s Half-Baked Pizza Review & Giveaway.

http://www.detroitmommies.com/2012/12/buddys-half-baked-pizza-review-giveaway/

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: jeff v on December 05, 2012, 11:34:42 AM
Wow Norma! Are you doing this style in addition to others at the market, or do you alternate? I can't imagine there are many places that put out the quality pizza you do on any scale. The market is lucky to have you!
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Jackitup on December 05, 2012, 11:41:05 AM
The Normamachine Market!!!
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 05, 2012, 12:20:08 PM
Wow Norma! Are you doing this style in addition to others at the market, or do you alternate? I can't imagine there are many places that put out the quality pizza you do on any scale. The market is lucky to have you!

Jeff,

Thanks for you kind comments!   :)

I am not doing Detroit style pizzas at market at full speed yet.  I still am on testing waters.  After yesterday, I need to understand more why my last two pizzas got better than the others.  I think I might give up the Greek style pizzas if customers like the Detroit style pizzas.  They are similar, but surely not the same.  If customers like the Detroit style pizzas I would like to offer them with more toppings than my regular NY style pizzas.  If it works out okay, then I would only be making two styles of pizzas.  I don't think I would be able to handle more types of pizza with only Steve and me working and doing everything.

Norma   
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 05, 2012, 12:23:32 PM
The Normamachine Market!!!

Jon,

I sure am not a machine, but do like to see what customers would really like in our area.  I thought customers might like the Mellow Mushroom clones I was trying to sell, but that wasn't the case.  I did learn a lot on the MM thread though.

Norma
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on December 05, 2012, 12:50:07 PM
Norma,

Thank you for the comprehensive report and for Steve's input also. It looks like you covered a lot of ground for this style.

After studying the report, I have the following thoughts and comments:

1. For the two pizzas that you weighed after baking (the first and fifth pizzas), the weight losses were 6.92% (for the first pizza) and 8.36% (the last pizza). The weights of those pizzas before baking was 22.25 ounces. The baked weights of the two pizzas, at 587 grams (20.71 ounces) and 578 grams (20.39 ounces), were both more than the final baked weight of the Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza that you recently purchased. However, if we use the average slice weight of 145 grams for the slices that dicepackage purchased from Buddy's, which was also from a cheese and pepperoni pizza, the total baked weight is 4 x 145 = 580 grams. So, your baked weights of 587 grams and 578 grams were very close to the dicepackage calculated weight. I have no good explanation for why the Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza you purchased weighed less than the ones you made or even the total calculated weight based on dicepackage's number. Maybe Buddy's uses less cheese and possibly less sauce (by weight).

2. Of all the pizzas you made, I thought that the third pizza that you prebaked and then added the sauce (which you had forgotten to add at the outset) looked most like the Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza that you recently purchased, including what appears to be a comparable height. The third pizza had the blend of the AMPI white cheddar and the mozzarella cheeses. You mentioned the death of the yeast a couple of times in respect of the third pizza but it is the moisture content of the dough that predominantly governs the oven spring of the dough. The yeast will be completely dead when the internal temperature of the crust is 145 degrees. The starches start to gelatinize at 140 degrees F, and be completely gelatinized (but still swelling) at 153 degrees F. If you pulled the pizza out of the oven after the starches had completely gelatinized and set, I don't think that you could have gotten the crust to rise anymore after you put the sauce on the pizza and returned it to the oven. Maybe it was serendipitous that you forgot to add the sauce because maybe that helps explain why the cheese and pepperoni pizza you recently purchased from Buddy's did not seem to have a great deal of height. That pizza was also a parbaked (partially baked) pizza. If you'd like to read how a pizza changes during the course of its bake, you might take a look at page 16 of the Pendleton Flour booklet at http://www.pfmills.com/filebin/pdf/technical_informational_booklet_v1-opt.pdf.

3. It appears that a 9-ounce dough ball was not too small for a 4-square pizza. Of course, we can't say with any certainty that that is the weight of dough ball that Buddy's uses for its small square pizzas. For example, if Buddy's actually uses less cheese than 8 ounces and/or a small amount of sauce, because the cheese and sauce are not weighed, then the dough ball could weigh more and you can end up with the same pre-baked pizza weight.

4. It seems that the brick cheese can brown if the temperature of the oven is high enough. In fact, your mozzarella based pizzas seemed to do better than the brick cheese in that regard. That is what threw me off when I tried to guess which pizza had only the mozzarella cheese. You indicated that your oven temperature at one point was 538 degrees F. Buddy's apparently uses a bake temperature of around 495 degrees F. The cheese color standard that I have used for a Buddy's pizza is essentially the one shown in the photo of http://bp0.blogger.com/__XShj91sMpw/RlJCGZFbuCI/AAAAAAAAAk4/jIeRhr1ub-U/s1600-h/redwings_5.JPG. There are many other photos of Buddy's pizzas that appear to be consistent with that photo.

5. It appears that there are many possible cheese options for the Detroit style pizza, although it appears from your tests that mozzarella cheese only is not the best choice. However, mozzarella cheese with another cheese, such as cheddar or brick, look to be reasonable choices.

6. I do not sense that dicing the cheeses affected the pizzas you made. Buddy's uses a diced cheese (brick) but that may be because they believe, as Grande often says, that a diced cheese is easier to put on a pizza and it may actually require less cheese for the same coverage when compared with shredded cheese. I might add that there are some pizza operators who do not agree with Grande on this point.

7. Canola oil looks to be a good choice to achieve a crispy bottom crust. As previously noted, Buddy's uses oil in its pans. The two oils that I have identified for this purpose are soybean oil and canola oil.

Peter

Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: Pete-zza on December 05, 2012, 01:09:26 PM
The fourth Buddy’s clone attempt was made using the same AMPI mild white cheddar and mozzarellas, but Steve and I baked applewood smoked bacon in the oven first for that pizza.  We also forgot to add sauce to that pizza, but it really didn’t need it.  I sure don’t know why, but this pizza and the last pizza I made for the day had a much crisper bottom, although it still was very easy to bite.  The dough fermented in the steel pans longer for those last two bakes, so I wonder if somehow the longer ferments make the bottom crisper and a little bit browner.  I am still trying to figure that out and it has me stumped.  The texture of the crumb was better too on the last two bakes. 

Norma,

Since the last two doughs spent more time in the pans, it is quite possible that they developed increased insulative properties that forced the oven heat to concentrate more on the bottom crust rather than passing through the crust to work on the cheeses, sauce and toppings. As a result, the bottom crust gets crispier. You can read more on these principles at Reply 24 and the links contained therein, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14442.msg145831/topicseen.html#msg145831.

Peter
Title: Re: Two Bill’s pizza..dough and Carmelina Sauce..great!
Post by: norma427 on December 05, 2012, 07:09:14 PM
Norma,

Thank you for the comprehensive report and for Steve's input also. It looks like you covered a lot of ground for this style.

After studying the report, I have the following thoughts and comments:

1. For the two pizzas that you weighed after baking (the first and fifth pizzas), the weight losses were 6.92% (for the first pizza) and 8.36% (the last pizza). The weights of those pizzas before baking was 22.25 ounces. The baked weights of the two pizzas, at 587 grams (20.71 ounces) and 578 grams (20.39 ounces), were both more than the final baked weight of the Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza that you recently purchased. However, if we use the average slice weight of 145 grams for the slices that dicepackage purchased from Buddy's, which was also from a cheese and pepperoni pizza, the total baked weight is 4 x 145 = 580 grams. So, your baked weights of 587 grams and 578 grams were very close to the dicepackage calculated weight. I have no good explanation for why the Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza you purchased weighed less than the ones you made or even the total calculated weight based on dicepackage's number. Maybe Buddy's uses less cheese and possibly less sauce (by weight).

2. Of all the pizzas you made, I thought that the third pizza that you prebaked and then added the sauce (which you had forgotten to add at the outset) looked most like the Buddy's cheese and pepperoni pizza that you recently purchased, including what appears to be a comparable height. The third pizza had the blend of the AMPI white cheddar and the mozzarella cheeses. You mentioned the death of the yeast a couple of times in respect of the third pizza but it is the moisture content of the dough that predominantly governs the oven spring of the dough. The yeast will be completely dead when the internal temperature of the crust is 145 degrees. The starches start to gelatinize at 140 degrees F, and be completely gelatinized (but still swelling) at 153 degrees F. If you pulled the pizza out of the oven after the starches had completely gelatinized and set, I don't think that you could have gotten the crust to rise anymore after you put the sauce on the pizza and returned it to the oven. Maybe it was serendipitous that you forgot to add the sauce because maybe that helps explain why the cheese and pepperoni pizza you recently purchased from Buddy's did not seem to have a great deal of height. That pizza was also a parbaked (partially baked) pizza. If you'd like to read how a pizza changes during the course of its bake, you might take a look at page 16 of the Pendleton Flour booklet at http://www.pfmills.com/filebin/pdf/technical_informational_booklet_v1-opt.pdf.

3. It appears that a 9-ounce dough ball was not too small for a 4-square pizza. Of course, we can't say with any certainty that that is the weight of dough ball that Buddy's uses for its small square pizzas. For example, if Buddy's actually uses less cheese than 8 ounces and/or a small amount of sauce, because the cheese and sauce are not weighed, then the dough ball could weigh more and you can end up with the same pre-baked pizza weight.

4. It seems that the brick cheese can brown if the temperature of the oven is high enough. In fact, your mozzarella based pizzas seemed to do better than the brick cheese in that regard. That is what threw me off when I tried to guess which pizza had only the mozzarella cheese. You indicated that your oven temperature at one point was 538 degrees F. Buddy's apparently uses a bake temperature of around 495 degrees F. The cheese color standard that I have used for a Buddy's pizza is essentially the one shown in the photo of http://bp0.blogger.com/__XShj91sMpw/RlJCGZFbuCI/AAAAAAAAAk4/jIeRhr1ub-U/s1600-h/redwings_5.JPG. There are many other photos of Buddy's pizzas that appear to be consistent with that photo.

5. It appears that there are many possible cheese options for the Detroit style pizza, although it appears from your tests that mozzarella cheese only is not the best choice. However, mozzarella cheese with another cheese, such as cheddar or brick, look to be reasonable choices.

6. I do not sense that dicing the cheeses affected the pizzas you made. Buddy's uses a diced cheese (brick) but that may be because they believe, as Grande often says, that a diced cheese is easier to put on a pizza and it may actually require less cheese for the same coverage when compared with shredded cheese. I might add that there are some pizza operators who do not agree with Grande on this point.

7. Canola oil looks to be a good choice to achieve a crispy bottom crust. As previously noted, Buddy's uses oil in its pans. The two oils that I have identified for this purpose are soybean oil and canola oil.

Peter



Peter,

Thank you for studying what I did and for your thoughts and comments.

1.  It is interesting to