Pizza Making Forum

General Topics => Pizza Making Equipment => Pizza Ovens => Topic started by: Bert on July 06, 2012, 12:22:27 PM

Title: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 06, 2012, 12:22:27 PM
I like to get feedback on a pizza oven insert for outdoor grills that I just filled a patent for. I have been using a prototype for the past few month. I was able to get 600 deg f in the oven using my gas grill. I have not tested my pizza oven insert using charcoal, I planning to do that in few weeks currently on vacation this week and next week. I am just going to post some pictures, to show how it works. I am working on a facebook page to post more pictures and updates.

Bert
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bill/SFNM on July 06, 2012, 12:37:19 PM
I'm not a patent expert, but I think there is quite a bit of prior art. What makes this unique?
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: italdream on July 06, 2012, 12:48:10 PM
Same here: not a patent expert but I am struggling to see the inventive step and non-obviousness of your invention. Is it a utility patent or a design patent?
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 06, 2012, 01:27:31 PM
My writing is not perfect, I will do my best.

The oven contains two cordierite cooking stones or similar material:

The round bottom stone is placed on the grill grates under the Mighty Pizza Oven.

The square top stone slides inside the Mighty Pizza Oven though a removable back cover and sits above the round stone,
You can adjust the height of the stone. For this prototype I used a pair of rails which allows 2 level setting. More rails can be added for additional level setting. Another option included in my patent application is to use a gear mechanism to move the upper stone up and down.

The heat required to bake is maximized by limiting number of opening.  Even when the oven is tilted up, to place or remove the pizza the heat inside the oven is quickly recovered.

Regardless at what level the upper stone is located , the hot air flow is controlled through the chimney opening, which aid in the baking process.


Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 06, 2012, 01:37:33 PM
It is a utility patent. and more photos
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: scott123 on July 06, 2012, 02:01:49 PM
I can't tell, does the top have anything other than the vent and the temperature gauge?
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: scott123 on July 06, 2012, 02:07:13 PM
Also, from what I can tell, this is extremely similar to a 2stone (bold mine):

http://www.2stonepg.com/2stone-pizza-gril.html

Quote
Great pizza is baked with high heat and hot air flow. With the "2stone pizza grill" (patent pending) you get both, along with a rotating 13-5/8" Fibrament stone to ensure even baking. The 2stone pizza grill feature a dual stone chamber where the pizza is baked between two stones spaced 3" apart.

The only difference that I can see is that your ceiling is lifted, while they have an opening in the front for the pizza.  If they do have a patent on the 2stone, I'm not sure your design is unique enough.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Jet_deck on July 06, 2012, 02:21:27 PM
Your missing alot of heat by not covering the grill in the areas not occupied by the insert.  Maybe another 100 degrees.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Jet_deck on July 06, 2012, 02:22:38 PM
Do you cook with the grill lid up or down ?
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 06, 2012, 02:35:24 PM
Scott, your design did come up when doing patent search.

In addition to the chimney, what is different in my design than 2stone-pizza-grill the top stone height is adjustable, which provides an adjustable cooking chamber. Plus The front opening is not used to draw air, the air is heated as it flows from the bottom of the grill over the round stone and exit trough the chimney. A chimney cover is used to control the hot air flow.

Basically, My design allow users to control the heat intensity by adjusting the upper stone height and controlling hot air flow.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 06, 2012, 02:47:45 PM
Jet_deck,

I place my pizza oven on the grill and preheat the top stone for 10 to 15 minutes with all the burners on high.

Than I place the bottom stone under the Mighty Pizza Oven, directly on the grill grates and preheat for another 10 to 15 minutes. With my grill heat, my Pizza Oven reaches well over 500 deg F.

Gas grill cover is left open, but during windy days, i did close it. I didn't experiment covering  the grill great in the areas not occupied by the insert. I don't seed the need for more heat.

pizza will take between 3 to 5 minutes maximum to cook, depending on the pizza thickness and number of ingredient I used.

I do need to rotate the pizza while cooking to obtain even browning all around you pizza rim and to prevent over cooking one side.  

In my patent application I included a device that allows turning the pizza stone through the front window. The device is adjustable, it can be used with 8” to 16” round stone.  I should have the prototype by the time I return from vacation. But this not really required, it just gives the user more convenience and prevent heat loss..

The added benefit of my deign, the oven is portable. Two foldable side handles to make it easy to move and store when it is not used. The bottom stone can also be stored inside the oven when it is not used.


Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Jet_deck on July 06, 2012, 03:18:00 PM
.... I don't seed the need for more heat....




One of your prospective customers might.  It does look very nice though.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: italdream on July 06, 2012, 03:49:35 PM
Actually, for a lot of customers, higher heat is what would set aside this system from a regular home oven. If it cannot provide higher heat, it probably should...
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 06, 2012, 04:28:10 PM
Thanks… The Sure la table is measuring the oven center temperature, I know it can reach 600 deg f. the stone and the cover can handle over 1000 deg f, for my own use at a temperature between 500 and 600 my pizza cooked way faster than when used to home oven.   For me, 3 minutes vs 2 minutes it is not that critical. But you are right for others it might be.

When I started this, I had convenience and controllability in my mind. I have not had the chance to test the oven on a better grill or using coal.  Once I am back from vacation I planning to by a coal grill and tested.  I will also test the oven with covering unused grill space, this should be simple to do.

I did little improvement on the first prototype. The back of the oven was warping when it started to get hot, see attached picture. I think I fixed the problem, will see. I am waiting on my second prototype. Also, I am working on adding a spring to handle, so users may be able to tilt the oven up without using a mitten.

Also, I will be testing the oven using a smaller bottom stone to see if it will allow more heat in the oven, currently I use 14" round and 15" square pizza stones. 

I still have lots of testing to do to know the full potential of the oven.


Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Jet_deck on July 06, 2012, 04:53:46 PM
You need to find a friend with a green egg or Kamado, and try this bad boy on one of those.  Huge market for that I'd bet.

What about putting it on top of a turkey burner?
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: pizzaneer on July 06, 2012, 06:01:13 PM
You need to find a friend with a green egg or Kamado, and try this bad boy on one of those.  Huge market for that I'd bet.

What about putting it on top of a turkey burner?

Haha- thats evil, Gene!  He's just figuring out a basic grill!  >:D

The oven setup looks workable to me, just needs some side skirts to funnel the wasted heat, and possibly a larger NY-size form factor.  I think this would appeal, as is, to the backyard grillin NY-makin wannabe chefs.  Just needs to be bigger.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 06, 2012, 06:55:39 PM
All the oven cover components are made from 304 ss. The oven can handle high temperature, but it would not recommend using the oven on anything other than a grill, no exposed flames like turkey fryer. You need to be close to the oven when loading and removing pizza. It is somthing I like to test.

The oven shape can square, rectangle or round using the same design philosophy.

I don't have any friends with green egg.  The oven temperature is depending on your grill heat source , I don't think covering the unused grill space will make that much difference on gas grill, but I will test.


Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 06, 2012, 07:02:48 PM
And can be made in different sizes to accomodate different grill sizes, my current prototype is 17 deep x16 wide x5" high
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: rcbaughn on July 09, 2012, 04:41:04 AM
Instead of turning the pizza why not devise a plan on actually allowing the bottom stone to spin kind of like a lazy susan? If it had enough resistance it wouldn't spin when loading but would be easy enough to turn with a small tool. I was thinking you could have small notches on the round stone and a little poker that would fit into those notches to turn the bottom stone. I guess that this wouldn't help though if the stone itself was the source of unevenness and the pizza would actually have to change positions on the stone itself. But if the stone just needed turning to change the relation of it on the grates I can see that being a lot easier for a beginner to do than trying to spin the pizza on the stone. Just a thought though.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 09, 2012, 07:07:23 AM
Using Mighty Pizza Oven is easier than it looks. but I do have such a device, I just have not tested it yet. I made it adjustable, it will works with any stone size between 8 to 16.5" Diameter. Planning to offer the pizza turning device as an accessory. see below pictures
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 09, 2012, 07:17:18 AM
The pizza turning device can be used on other oven pizza inserts such KettlePizza. I am not sure if my pizza turning device will add any value to 2stone-pizza-grill owners...
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 09, 2012, 07:25:14 AM
In regards to making notches in the stone, I would have to make a custom stone, the stone sizes I am using for my first oven size are available in the market, no custom mold is required. The tools I showed in my previous post, should allow users to turn the stone easily. I will be testing it in couple of weeks.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: rcbaughn on July 09, 2012, 07:52:02 PM
Haha that is awesome that you had the same idea and have already got a prototype in the works! I didn't realize you were using a readily available commercial stone so yeah, the notches would be overkill and drive production costs way higher. Do you think that the stone not touching the grates is going to affect the heat transfer? That may be a good thing since the bottom may cook more evenly with the top stones lower temp.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Tory on July 09, 2012, 09:55:33 PM
I have never eaten pizza cooked on a grill. Does it taste different than pizzas cooked in a conventional oven?
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: pizzaneer on July 09, 2012, 10:06:05 PM
If the grill is caked with grease from cooking burgers, etc, of course.  If it's clean, not that different.  The real difference comes in the cooking temperatures that are possible in a grill.  Not saying that that has been achieved in this particular instance, but the higher temps are possible depending on configuration.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 10, 2012, 04:08:14 PM
Probably the pizza turning device will have minimal effect on the heat reaching the stone, the stone will be about 1/2" higher than the grill grates and the pizza turning device surfaces will block some direct heat. I tried to limit the surfaces of the turning device to a minimum. Plus, I will be adding some large holes on the pizza turning device disc to maximize direct heat reaching the stone..
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: pizzaneer on July 10, 2012, 07:03:25 PM
Did we mention our consultancy fee?
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 10, 2012, 10:05:22 PM
. In fact, the Mighty Pizza Oven gives you similar results to a brick oven, without any of the drawbacks.

-   The baking quality of the Mighty Pizza Oven is comparable to that of a brick oven.

-   It has the same short baking time as a brick oven but heats up much faster.

-   
If you are able to truly reach these parameters in your upcoming tests then I would be proud to be your first customer sir. I wish you success!

Bob
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 18, 2012, 07:35:36 AM
Gene you were correct, I covered unused area of the grill with aluminum foil. The temperature in the oven did go increase by 100 Deg F.

The temperature inside the pizza oven reached 700 Deg F within 1/2 hour using my old grill. I will try to test the oven on a higher end gas grill.
The bottom stone temperature varied between 600 deg. F at front of the stone to 800 deg. F at the back of stone, which will be solved by rotating the stone using my pizza rotating device. I am planning to test the device later this week.

And, I have been looking to buy Member's Mark Gas Fired Ignition Charcoal Grill from Sam's Club to test my oven using charcoal. It is on sale for $100, pretty good deal for all the features included.

Will keep you posted.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 18, 2012, 09:14:38 AM
What do you think your oven will  retail for $$?
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 18, 2012, 10:31:15 AM
TXCraig1,

Based on the recommendation from the Kitchen Inventors show on the Food Network, the retail price should be 5 time the cost. Which make the unit cost extreemly high. I am still evaluating the basis of this factor, to stay competetive with existing pizza oven inserts in the market, my factor is two time the cost, which I am still evaluating if it is worth the risk, time and efforts, it all depend on the intrest level in my oven. If decided to proceed with the oven, most likely I will use kickstarter.com to generate funding for the minimum order required by the manufacturer.

Bert 
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Tscarborough on July 18, 2012, 10:43:32 AM
5x the cost of production is insane.  A more realistic view for direct sales would be a margin of 40-50% of cost, 20-30 to re-sellers.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 18, 2012, 10:57:28 AM
5x make sense for items that cost few dollars, still not sure why they refrence this factor on every episod regardless of the procution cost.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Tscarborough on July 18, 2012, 11:03:14 AM
Because they are a show about dreams?
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 18, 2012, 11:14:37 AM
my wife (the dream popper) keep in check.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 18, 2012, 11:22:00 AM
My older sister an I call it "our gimmick"....we are still looking for it.... ;)
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 18, 2012, 11:52:44 AM
Its kind of interesting though, to see how much some the inventors on that show have invested into their product/ dreams... I am not that brave...
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 18, 2012, 01:05:32 PM
The other thing I tested last night is the chimney,

notice the temperature guage on top of the oven when the chimney is closed and when it is open. The thermometer temperature increased due to the hot air flowing by and out through the open chimney, which you really need to cook your pizza top in addition to the heat form the top stone.

Note: This thermometer does not reflect the true oven temperature due to its location
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: scott123 on July 18, 2012, 06:59:13 PM
Bert, you seem like a great guy and I'm always appreciative when equipment developers seek out this forum's advice. I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but I really don't see this going anywhere.

The overall design is incredibly sexy, but, with all that stainless, there's no way you're clocking in with a retail below 2stone.  I've made it clear, on many occasions, that the 2stone insert is a waste of money, and that, for someone with minimal DIY skills, it can be built for a fraction of the cost.  The sexy look of the MPO, the adjustable stone height, the chimney and portability are all really nice, but I don't see these features being worth the minimum of $150 difference between this device and making something similar yourself.

And then you've got licensing concerns.  I am by no means an expert in patent law, but, when a person invents something and patents it, doesn't another inventor who invents something similar have to prove the new item's uniqueness?  There's no court in the land that would ever consider this a unique invention.  This is a 2stone + additional features, and, since 2stone has applied for a patent, should you decide to manufacture this device, I don't see how you can avoid paying them a licensing fee (if they even grant you the rights).  Am I missing some aspect of the law here?
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: pizzaneer on July 18, 2012, 08:42:39 PM
Scott, good points on patent law - but you missed the possible infringement lawsuit danger.

Bert, the only way I can see all this hard work and effort bringing you some joy is to sell the concept directly to a high-end grill manufacturer, as an add-on.  Theres grills that sell for obscene amounts of money, marketed to an audience that A: doesn't have a clue how to use them, and B: just likes to be able to say, Yeah my grill can do that.

Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 19, 2012, 02:23:45 AM
And then you've got licensing concerns.  I am by no means an expert in patent law, but, when a person invents something and patents it, doesn't another inventor who invents something similar have to prove the new item's uniqueness?

If the other inventor sues him. If you are building something similar to something already granted patent protection, you should have a legal opinion in your back packet stating why it is not infringing or else face a serious risk of enhanced damages (up to 3X).

Quote
There's no court in the land that would ever consider this a unique invention.  This is a 2stone + additional features, and, since 2stone has applied for a patent, should you decide to manufacture this device, I don't see how you can avoid paying them a licensing fee (if they even grant you the rights).  Am I missing some aspect of the law here?

It’s not that cut and dried. It’s all about the claims and how they are written - and more specifically, the claims allowed by the examiner. You are probably correct, but without reviewing the application and ultimately the granted patent (if granted), it is impossible to make such a blanket statement. It can also be surprisingly easy to get around patent claims. For example, simply enclosing the top stone in the unit with another sheet of stainless may be enough – maybe stick some ceramic insulation in there with it (5% royalty for me if you use that idea).  I don’t know if this would work, but you get the idea. I’ve seen patents circumvented with much much less.

Looking at his pictures, I would not say that it is out of the question that he could patent certain elements of his product. Are they things that would be meaningful and worth patenting? I don’t know. Having been through more than a few patent applications and examination processes, I can tell you it is an expensive, time consuming, and very frustrating process.

On the matter of price, “rules” like 5X are almost never a good way to price something. Clearly, the right price is the one that maximizes profit. There is a lot of science behind pricing – well beyond the scope of this note. Since you have already designed and built a prototype, as a first step, I would encourage you to do some research and try to determine what people might pay for it. Use similar products as a baseline and then list your additional (or reduced) features or utility. Try to estimate the value of those additional/less features and then adjust your price up or down accordingly. Gut check your net price with people who would be target customers. This forum would be a good place. If you are going to sell through a distributor or anyone who takes a cut, reduce your price by that amount. Then look at your costs and estimate your potential volume. Can you make enough $$ to make it worth your time? If not, consider how a redesign might make it suitably profitable.

Good luck. I admire your entrepreneurial and creative spirit.

Craig
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 19, 2012, 05:17:33 AM
I do appreciate everyone straight forward feedback….

My design contains and controls the flow of heat across the cooking chamber and the temperature in the heated gap between the cooking stones; all other existing designs do not. 

My objective at this stage is to prove that my design preform significantly better than any existing designs and it will add value.

FYI …Last night, I repeated previous night experiment, where I covered the unused area of the grill with aluminum foil. This time I covered all the rest of the unused areas (1” gap on left side of the oven), within ten minutes, the grease at the bottom of the grill combusted.  I quickly shutoff the burners, and closed and disconnected the propane tank, removed my oven and closed the grill lid, it took a while for the flame to go out. I guess it has been a while since the last time I cleaned my grill. I use for baking pizza more than grilling. Anyway, something to make a note of and share with the forum DIY members  to be careful when experimenting
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 19, 2012, 07:30:30 AM
Any input on how guage performance in comparison to other oven inserts?

Thanks

Bert
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 19, 2012, 07:54:10 AM
Side by side with the best known competitor on a larger grill. Could then use that unit as a demonstrator/marketing tool further on down the road.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 19, 2012, 08:12:28 AM
The performance test is more for my own piece of mind than for marketing… Does anyone knows if there is any independent testing facilities for such a thing.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 19, 2012, 08:33:16 AM
The performance test is more for my own piece of mind than for marketing… Does anyone knows if there is any independent testing facilities for such a thing.
'independent testing facilities" ......to test the performance of your unit AND other inserts available on the market?
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 19, 2012, 09:02:07 AM
Bob,  to test my oven, is there any certification or test that these grill accessories need to meet or comply with.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: buceriasdon on July 19, 2012, 09:13:36 AM
I would contact Serious Eats/ Slice and send one to a staff writer there, have them put it through it's paces and give you their impressions. Same thing here. Get one in the hands of someone who knows how to bake pizza. Keep the correspondence confidential until the reviewers and yourself are satisfied that out of the box your unit will perform as advertised. I mention this so as to avoid the pitfalls of the inventor of the Pizza Kettle Insert.
Don

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=19669.0
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 19, 2012, 09:40:37 AM
I will try a reviewer first...
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 19, 2012, 09:51:48 AM
I would contact Serious Eats/ Slice and send one to a staff writer there, have them put it through it's paces and give you their impressions. Same thing here. Get one in the hands of someone who knows how to bake pizza. Keep the correspondence confidential until the reviewers and yourself are satisfied that out of the box your unit will perform as advertised. I mention this so as to avoid the pitfalls of the inventor of the Pizza Kettle Insert.
Don

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=19669.0
In a way this was not a pitfall.....they showed him how to make his product do much, much more. Not good though I guess if all you want to do is sell a piece of crap!  ;D
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 19, 2012, 10:17:07 AM
I am extreemly staisfied with the oven for my own use. As the deigner of it, my opinion dosen't count and I consider myself an average pizza maker...
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 19, 2012, 10:43:08 AM
I really believe the oven as is, meets the needs of an average pizza maker like me and the extreme pizza makers, I will back up my claim with testing as time permit...
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: scott123 on July 19, 2012, 10:56:19 AM
I would contact Serious Eats/ Slice and send one to a staff writer there, have them put it through it's paces and give you their impressions. Same thing here. Get one in the hands of someone who knows how to bake pizza.

The 2stone has a long and proven track record for producing NY style pizza in typical gas grill.  The thermodynamics on this device aren't fundamentally different.  This won't produce Neapolitan bake times or wood fired oven results (you need LBE btus for those), but it will churn out great NY pie after great NY pie.

Testing for this is completely unnecessary.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: pizzaneer on July 19, 2012, 11:19:22 AM
The 2stone has a long and proven track record for producing NY style pizza in typical gas grill.  The thermodynamics on this device aren't fundamentally different.  This won't produce Neapolitan bake times or wood fired oven results (you need LBE btus for those), but it will churn out great NY pie after great NY pie.

Testing for this is completely unnecessary.

How else is he going to get feedback he can cite to potential investors?  Aside from all the legal issues, there are still the financial hurdles to overcome in getting a first production run into the hands of buyers.  I agree, I don't really see much difference between this and the 2stone.  Slightly different shape, different usage model, but it works about the same.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 19, 2012, 11:37:25 AM
Scott, I will make a believer out of you one day. The basic is the same, but MPO (I like to call it MO) has the ability to concentrate and channel the flowing heat in a small chamber. My gas grill has only three working burners only, I don't remember what is the BTU rating anymore, I don't think it is more than 12000 BTU each, I got it from Lowe's 8 years ago, I couldn't find replacement parts when I tried years ago. The other night, the temperature reached 700 deg F when I covered the area over the bad burner with foil, and last night, I covered the other remaining space, the temperature inside oven started to increase really fast, I had to abort due to the grease fire... I think the temperature would of reached over 800, can't proof it ... I will not try this experiment on my old oven again... I am looking to buy new gas grill..Sam's has these hybrid grill, not sure if I want to go this route, or buy one gas and one charcoal grill.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 19, 2012, 11:41:54 AM
pizzaneer I will make a believer out you too. ;)
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: pizzaneer on July 19, 2012, 11:44:47 AM
pizzaneer I will make a believer out you too. ;)
 Ok, but I'm hard to please  8)


Bert, once the grease burns off, it's gone.  My LBE gets over 1000 degrees in the burn chamber.  The first time I fired it, it smoked and stunk.  I let it go and now it burns perfectly clean.   Try it again, and don't panic.  If the flames get out of hand, drop the lid on them, but leave the heat on until it stops smoking.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 19, 2012, 11:50:56 AM
 Ok, but I'm hard to please  8)


Bert, once the grease burns off, it's gone.  My LBE gets over 1000 degrees in the burn chamber.  The first time I fired it, it smoked and stunk.  I let it go and now it burns perfectly clean.   Try it again, and don't panic.  If the flames get out of hand, drop the lid on them, but leave the heat on until it stops smoking.
Hey, good basic grilling skills there Brian.... ;D
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: pizzaneer on July 19, 2012, 11:55:25 AM
Hey, good basic grilling skills there Brian.... ;D

You'd be amazed (well, maybe not) how many people have no clue they have to burn off the crud BEFORE cooking.  I can't eat anything off a grill at any of my in-laws without getting sick.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: scott123 on July 19, 2012, 12:23:00 PM
Alright, Bert, I'll tell you what... these kinds of projects bring me a great amount of enjoyment.  I'm willing, for now, to put the patent and potential retail price issues aside and, with an open mind, both see what this device can do as well as provide assistance in improving it. Be aware, though, that, regardless of how much assistance I provide, should you ever go into production and start selling it, there's a good chance that I will end up a vocal opponent.

First off, we need a lot more temperature readings than chamber air temp or case temp. We need stone temps, both hearth and ceiling.  In an ideal scenario, we could get hearth bottom and hearth top readings along withe ceiling bottom and ceiling top, but, considering your setup, that may not be feasible. Drilling holes in cordierite tends to weaken it, but I'd really love to have a core temp of each stone as well.

A huge part of these bottom heat scenario devices is top to bottom heat ratio.  You might be able to hit 800 in the baking chamber, but if the bottom stone is 800 and the top 700, then that's going to be a problem.  The 2stone gets around this by using a very poor conductor for a hearth (fibrament). You can read about the differences between the cordierite you're using now and fibrament here:

FibraMent vs. Cordierite (Engineering Data) (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5645.0.html)

Be aware that cordierite can vary in composition, so the numbers won't match up exactly, but this gives you a good general idea of the differences.

Whatever gas grill you purchase, make sure you keep it pretty generic- no lower than about 30K btu and no higher than 60K. You might want to think about the fact that if the price point on this device ends up being a bit high, you will be targeting a higher income demographic, who will most likely have a higher btu grill.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: scott123 on July 19, 2012, 12:47:28 PM
It’s not that cut and dried. It’s all about the claims and how they are written - and more specifically, the claims allowed by the examiner. You are probably correct, but without reviewing the application and ultimately the granted patent (if granted), it is impossible to make such a blanket statement. It can also be surprisingly easy to get around patent claims. For example, simply enclosing the top stone in the unit with another sheet of stainless may be enough – maybe stick some ceramic insulation in there with it (5% royalty for me if you use that idea).  I don’t know if this would work, but you get the idea. I’ve seen patents circumvented with much much less.

Craig, I think the emissivity of the stainless would make a pretty poor ceiling and you also might have heat transfer concerns between the (most likely) not perfectly flat steel sheet and top stone, but, as far as getting around claims being easier than I might have thought, I'll defer to your greater experience in these matters.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 19, 2012, 01:31:47 PM
Scott, Hopefully I won't give you or any one else any reason to be a vocall oponent.

How close do you need to be the ratio? does it have to 1 or .75 is acceptable??

I will try to take more measurments, it is a bit hard to take picures and measure a the same time.

For the bottom stone, I have two different 15" stones, I think one is 3/8 and the other is 5/8 thick.

When the inside oven was 700 the top stone was higher, the bottom stone higher in back and lower in the front..., I start by heating the top stone first than slide the bottom stone under... I need to buy another IR thermometer, I am not how accurate the one I have.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: pizzaneer on July 19, 2012, 01:42:55 PM
Hey Bert, what's your location?  Maybe one of the "experts" on this forum live close enough to test drive your device in person.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 19, 2012, 02:11:18 PM
Brian, I am in Houston, TX ...
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: scott123 on July 19, 2012, 02:12:10 PM
Hey Bert, what's your location?  Maybe one of the "experts" on this forum live close enough to test drive your device in person.

Good point, Brian.

Bert, one of the strengths of the 2stone is that you can put it on the grill, turn the grill on, wait for it to pre-heat, come back, and it will be ready to make pizza- and it will, based up the thermal mass of the fibrament (3/4" I believe) and the heat going into the stone during the bake, produce a pretty healthy number of consistent pizzas in succession. I've never seen the 2stone insert put through it's paces, but I'm relatively comfortable, with the right heat setting and consistent timing between bakes, it can do 4 pies without an issue.

The added labor of adding the bottom stone after the top has pre-heated for a while isn't the end of the world, but, as you bake a pizza and time passes, the top to bottom heat ratio will change, and the bottom stone, as you feed it from below, will get progressively hotter.

Pre-heating the bottom stone after the top will only give you optimal conditions for one or two pies. It's not like you can remove the hot hearth and give the ceiling another burst of energy, as handling a hot hearth produces a safety issue.

At this point in time, the forum hasn't hammered out the ideal top stone temp and bottom stone in a two stone scenario. Generally speaking, the hotter the dome in comparison to the hearth, the better.  I've never heard of anyone complaining about two much top heat in these kind of scenarios.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: scott123 on July 19, 2012, 02:14:48 PM
Brian, I am in Houston, TX ...

I think I might know someone that can help confirm/refute your WFO claims.  ;D
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 19, 2012, 02:55:00 PM
That will be great...

how hot does 2stone grill reach on the grill?

MO top stone once it is heated, there is a minimal contact with side to lose any heat, especially with the constant hot fast flow air. I couldn't measure the air flow out of the chimney, I tried use an air speed gauges, the hot air out of the chimney melted the guage blades instantaneously.

I have used MO on multiple occasions for family gathering where i cooked 8+ pizzas. But since I was doing everything myself, the bottom stone had time recover between each pizza, I never noticed any inconsistency.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 19, 2012, 03:22:53 PM
I think I might know someone that can help confirm/refute your WFO claims.  ;D
I believe the consultant you're referring to resides in the Big D.....but he gets around that's for sure... ;)
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: buceriasdon on July 20, 2012, 08:13:00 AM
Perhaps an elaboration to my reply 47 is in order. My thinking is to have someone like Kenji or Adam at Slice test the unit, yes to see if it performs as you say but also when you both are satisfied a good write up out of the gate would be a good marketing tool should you decide to proceed. Also, not that it applies to your grill accessory as it is stainless, but he first generation KettlePizza units were highly criticized for the paint popping off the carbon steel insert. The maker then went to stainless steel. Now I call that poor R&D before going to market.
Don
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: SinoChef on July 20, 2012, 09:17:22 AM
If this takes off for you, and you get to the point where you are ready to sell in large quantity. I can make some introductions for you here in China. You can spec out any quality level you want. They are able to make more then cheap plastic Wal Mart junk here. You just need someone here to make sure they are not cutting corners.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 20, 2012, 09:39:16 AM
Don,

I wanted to go with Aluminum first, but I decided not to due to it low melting point. It would have been cheaper and easier to work with. I use now 304 SS, 1.2mm in all materials used on the oven including the handles and even the screws… I am trying to prevent any rust. The only issue I have with 304 SS that it will discolor when exposed to high temperature.

I have only experimented making pizza pies with MPO temperature of 600 deg f, just by simply placing the oven on the grill for half an hour. I usually heat top stone for 15 minutes than I insert the bottom stone, the oven still perform the same even I don’t do that.

I want my design to challenged, and this forum has been great in doing that.

I am not looking to redesign the oven, it is what is...

My claim that my design is unique, and if I can proof that my oven can do something that other similar insert can’t do, that should support my claim.

I am not ready to discuss my oven outside this forum yet. Maybe later when testing does support my claim…

I do appreciate your input and others too.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 20, 2012, 09:44:56 AM
SinoChef, I am allready working with someone in Chain.  Originally I tried to do it in the US, but there was no way for me to even afford making a prototype. The prototype quality is great... I still have minor issues to resolve.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 20, 2012, 10:21:20 AM
Hopefully this weekend I will find a replacement for my gas grill... and buy Members Mark Charcol Grill, I like to see how MPO will perform using charcoal.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: pizzaneer on July 20, 2012, 10:24:21 AM
SinoChef, I am allready working with someone in Chain.  Originally I tried to do it in the US, but there was no way for me to even afford making a prototype. The prototype quality is great... I still have minor issues to resolve.

So how long did the design process take and how did you get in touch with the "prototyper"/ manufacturer in China?  What deal did you make with them?  Free prototype in return for manufacturing rights?
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bill/SFNM on July 20, 2012, 10:29:18 AM
I like the name "Mighty Pizza Oven". You should jump on the trademark, urls, social networking names, etc.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 20, 2012, 11:14:25 AM
Finding a manufacturer has not been easy... I have paid for the prototype sample only..


I have the URL for "Mighty Pizza Oven" and facebook, I still need to do it for the trademark, I need figure it out how online to save on cost.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 20, 2012, 01:16:02 PM
I just used legalzoom to file for a trademark, it was simpler than I thought.  Thanks for reminding me Bill...
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: scott123 on July 20, 2012, 06:49:19 PM
That will be great...

how hot does 2stone grill reach on the grill?

MO top stone once it is heated, there is a minimal contact with side to lose any heat, especially with the constant hot fast flow air. I couldn't measure the air flow out of the chimney, I tried use an air speed gauges, the hot air out of the chimney melted the guage blades instantaneously.

I have used MO on multiple occasions for family gathering where i cooked 8+ pizzas. But since I was doing everything myself, the bottom stone had time recover between each pizza, I never noticed any inconsistency.

Bert, does your device allow the lid of the grill to be closed? If if doesn't, I think that could be an advantage for the 2stone, because it allows all the heat that the grill is putting out to collect in the lid and preheat the insert.  Covering the outside areas of the grill with foil will achieve something similar (or selling a cover that creates the same effect), but being able to close the lid of the grill makes pre-heating a bit simpler.  I think expecting your customers to break out the aluminum foil is a bit much.

The odds that this insert will give you less than 90 second Neapolitan pizza bake times are, imo, pretty much non existent, so you should be developing/marketing this device for NY pizza.  When I refer to top/bottom heat issues, it's within the context of the ideal NY pizza bake time- 4 minutes.  As you extend the bake time, any top/bottom heat disparity tends to disappear.  But trust me, you don't want to extend the bake time.  Longer bakes produce inferior pizza.

How long were the 8+ pizza party pizzas baked for?  More than 7 minutes each, right?
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 20, 2012, 08:34:25 PM
I wouldn't be wasting any body time if my oven was taking that long to bake a pizza, it takes 3 to 4 minutes each... no foil covering ... no lid closed.... in half an hour I can start backing...I have to rotate each pizza during the 4 minutes, otherwise it will be black overcooked on one side..

The front oven handle prevent the the grill lid from closing all the way down... I closed the grill lid (up to the handle) couple of time when it was windy...

I forgot to mention, there is an 1/2" to 1.25" gap between the top stone and the oven ceiling depending on the location of the top stone (in this prototype I have setting 3/4" apart).... This gap acts as an insulator for top stone, the lower the stone the thicker the insulation is...  the air in this gap  is sitting still getting hotter and hotter and not being circulated, acting as a hot insulator (just theory, no data to confirm) ....  in addition to the direct heat from the flames around the the bottom stone and the hot air that flow fast constantly hitting the upper stone, the upper stone gets hotter and hotter with time... I don't have data how much hotter it gets after time or how fast..

I got the charcoal grill from sam's, there are a zillion part... I will try to put it together, with my little helpers (3y & 4y kids) it may take me a while...

I never pushed the oven to the extreme side... the oven is built to handle extreme temperature, I need to find out how hot I can get it using an average grill (propane or charcoal) and if this hot temperature is usable for baking Neapolitan pizza...




Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: ThatsAmore on July 20, 2012, 08:50:21 PM

I got the charcoal grill from sam's, there are a zillion part... I will try to put it together, with my little helpers (3y & 4y kids) it may take me a while...


If you are not familiar, lump charcoal burns much hotter than briquettes.  Also, please buy an electric charcoal lighter. Using a solvent to ignite your coal is an element you really don't want to add as a negative, IMO.

If you already know this .... Never Mind  :-X


Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 20, 2012, 09:02:49 PM
Thanks...I have not used charcoal for over 15 year, I did get lump (40 pound bag for $15 from Sam's), the oven has a propane starter...

Here is few pictures of few pies i made few weeks ago, you can see the effect I didn't rotate the pie in time.

Have a great weekend everyone...
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 21, 2012, 06:36:12 AM
I can't sleep and still too dark to start assembling my new oven.... Hopefully I can assemble some of it before my little helpers wake up.

Here is few more pictures, for simple topping like the one I am showing below (olive oil and herbs mix) it takes less than 3 minutes to bake ...

Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: rcbaughn on July 21, 2012, 06:59:24 AM
That looks like a great pie. I love simple when it comes to pizza. I would love to try a muffaletta pie sometime though, and a quick bake time would be better so your setup would be prime for that kind of pie. It wouldn't over cook the tapenade or meat.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 21, 2012, 07:23:40 AM
thanks.. Never had muffaletta pie before... simple for me is the best too
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 22, 2012, 05:38:05 PM
I got my new charcoal grill assembled... I wasn't able to reach any high temperature worth mentioning. I was disappointed... It looks like i didn't use enough charcoal... It was a long and messy experience, sparks flying everywhere... I need more practice.

So I went back to my old gas grill, I did quick cleaning and tried my last experiment again. I covered all unused area of the grill with foil, closed the grill lid this time, MPO vent fully open, used 13" round stone (bottom stone) and used a thicker square stone (upper stone). Top stone temperature was over 800 within 1/2 hour and bottom stove temperature reached over 900 (not consistently all over)

I repeated the above experiment with 14" round stone, top stone was below 800 with half hour..

This was just quick experiment, In summary there is a good potential for MPO to bake Neapolitan Pizza... I need to bring bottom stone temperature down... I think I can do it cheaply by placing and 13" aluminum disk under stone. I used to use these aluminum disks to prevent ceramic disk from breaking... The smallest disk I have is 14" Need to get a 13" one.

Again, this was a quick test.... Hopefully, one of the well know forum members will be willing to witness next test and help take more readings and documents MPO results...
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: shuboyje on July 22, 2012, 05:46:38 PM

This was just quick experiment, In summary there is a good potential for MPO to bake Neapolitan Pizza... I need to bring bottom stone temperature down... I think I can do it cheaply by placing and 13" aluminum disk under stone. I used to use these aluminum disks to prevent ceramic disk from breaking... The smallest disk I have is 14" Need to get a 13" one.


I'm curious why you feel this way?  Is it based on factors other then those you've posted? 

Given the design as it seems, and the data you have posted so far I think you are going to have the same top heat issue all other bottom heat only ovens have.  For Neapolitan you really want the dome temperature at least a couple hundred degrees higher then the floor and even then you also have superheated convection over the pie on top of that via open flame.  From what I see you have neither.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Tscarborough on July 22, 2012, 06:02:18 PM

Try split firebrick for the floor, aluminum doesn't seem like it would help .
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 22, 2012, 06:27:34 PM
Here is few pics,

shuboyje , I am learning about Neapolitan pizza as we go... based on what I understood so far, I need to get my top stone over 800 F and lower stone at about 700's or the same as the top... based on today experiment, top stone can reach 800+ , next step reducing bottom stone temperature, I have one of the requirement so far...  am I  100% sure it can be done with MPO? no, but I know that MPO can very high temperature with MPO in short period of time.

Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 22, 2012, 06:34:40 PM
Tscarborough, I used a thin aluminum disk before under a ceramic stone... The stone didn't crack, but the stone didn't get hot as the cordierite pizza stone that I am using now. split firebrick are thin\k and take too long heat and not commercial practical for my oven. The bottom stone has to be round and fits under MPO
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: shuboyje on July 22, 2012, 06:50:25 PM
Well lucky for you you are in a great location to learn about Neapolitan pizza first hand from one of this forum(and probably this country's) best.  Your challenge is gonna be getting the heat up top.  People have come close in a LBE, so there is hope, but it is very tough and an LBE has a massively oversized burner to work with.  To give you a little start, a neapolitan oven would ideally(for my preference) have a floor temp of 900F+ and a dome temp of around 1200F with the ceiling covered intense flame.  Thats is a lot of heat, with most of it up top.  Your stones have higher conductivity and your ceiling is lower, so the temperatures needed are probably a bit lower, but the balance of heat stays the same.  Your heat source comes from the bottom, but you need the most heat up top.  See where the challenge arises?

I love your logo.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 22, 2012, 07:25:10 PM
Thanks Jeff, the logo was pretty easy to come up with, it is MPO front view with a mustache.

Balancing will be my next challenge, and the other challenge, have the time and patience to learn how prepare Neapolitan dough…

Bert,
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 24, 2012, 07:34:57 AM
To improve heat retention in MPO top stone in my quest of reaching Neapolitan Baking temperature with MPO, I inserted 4 layers of aluminum foil, between top stone and MPO ceiling to insulate and reflect back stone heat radiation. Without this foil, the air gap will only provide conduction and convection insulation for the top stone.

I also covered half of the bottom stone with one layer of foil, the inside half which gets much hotter.

I was able to get 700+ temperature top and bottom stones, temperature varied between front, back, center, left and right but all within 700+ range, did not reach 800+, it was little windy outside. I will try the experiment again on a non windy day. This weekend I will also try baking pizza at these high temperatures, may not be Neapolitan recipe.

I have other ideas on how to reach higher temperatures with MPO, this one is the simplest and the cheapest.

MPO has lots of potential, but it all depend on the initial lunch... Diffrent sizes, shapes and quality can be made to fit different users need. For the initial lunch, MPO will be based my current protoptype size, material and accessories. In addition to more experiment, I need to figure out price, Craig provided great input, regarding this... 
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 25, 2012, 07:44:30 AM
I have been operating MPO on 36,000 BTU.  I found my gas grill manual, each burner is rated for 12000 btu.
 
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: pizzaneer on July 25, 2012, 08:06:52 AM
That's a shame. Any possibility you could return it and get a model with higher output?

Or you could bore the holes in the burners a size larger?  But that would defeat the idea of making the MPO fit an "average" grill, right?
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Jet_deck on July 25, 2012, 08:51:39 AM
the biggest problem that i see is the vent.  I don't like the fact that the air isn't directed properly as we have seen with the LBE's.  The hot air should enter bottom rear, be forced over the top of the pizza and exit the front (near stone level).  I'm not saying that i don't like your concept or design, it just doesn't follow what "we" have made work in the LBE.  You are really not letting the hot air do much/any work except to heat the top stone.  I believe it could be doing more.

Just my .02
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: buceriasdon on July 25, 2012, 09:39:25 AM
Brian, I'm not an advocate of enlarging burner hole sizes. There is a certain amount of back pressure required for complete combustion along the length of the burner tube and there is a point of diminishing returns concerning hole size. I've built a few burners in my time, not that makes me an expert, but my experience has been if you increase burner hole size an increase in pressure at the regulator is needed to push the gas to the end of the tube. There is a balance between fuel useage and BTUs supplied that was taken in to account when the burner was designed.
Don
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 25, 2012, 09:40:50 AM
That's a shame. Any possibility you could return it and get a model with higher output?

Or you could bore the holes in the burners a size larger?  But that would defeat the idea of making the MPO fit an "average" grill, right?

Here is a real basic primer on burner technology...
http://www.wedlinydomowe.com/smokehouse-plans/smokehouse-burner/making

an increase in heat requires an increase in fuel flow (larger orifice&more air)
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 25, 2012, 10:01:01 AM
Brian, I had this grill for over 8 years .... the intention was to replace it with high end one when I build my outdoor kitchen that I have been planning for the past 8 years...

I can modify the wholes, but I won't be able to know actual BTU. I have been looking for a grill replacement, I am not sure which what to buy and what would I be using it for..

Gene, I can't achieve baking in less than 4 minutes if I don't have it open. The flow is not uniform all around, but it does contribute speeding the baking process. And depending at what level the stone is set at, hot air will contribute more heat when set at lower level than at a higher level setting.

At 600 deg F, MPO has been working great, with consistant / repeatable results using 36000 BTU.

I started going to higher temperature, by coverring unused areas of the grill as you recommended, I have not been able to get repeatable results and find a good balance between top stone / bottom stone and air flow, it looks I need more than 36000 BTU.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: pizzaneer on July 25, 2012, 10:07:39 AM
Agreed to you both Don and Bob.  In another thread, there was some discussion of making a very small hole size increase.  Probably only discussed because the regulator in that case allowed it.  Sorry I brought it up.

In any event, modifying the grill permanently should not be on the design table.  What Bert's doing is trying to make a device that can be dropped onto an average-Joe kind of grill.  I think.

To get it working on his present setup, he would have to make some changes in the grill itself - not what he's after.

Anyone have any thoughts on what constitutes an "average" grill these days?
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 25, 2012, 10:18:43 AM
What Bert's doing is trying to make a device that can be dropped onto an average-Joe kind of grill.  I think.

That's right Brian, and how high can I get without any mofifcation to MPO.

To get it working on his present setup, he would have to make some changes in the grill itself - not what he's after.

That's correct.

Anyone have any thoughts on what constitutes an "average" grill these days?.

Really important to identidy.

Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 25, 2012, 10:33:18 AM
 In another thread, there was some discussion of making a very small hole size increase.  Probably only discussed because the regulator in that case allowed it.
On that primer I put up they discuss opening up holes that were furthest away from venturi and not lighting due to weak/too low pressure regulator.Enlarging the hole brought out a flame... ;)
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: juniorballoon on July 25, 2012, 10:36:54 AM
You have mentioned having to rotate the pizza as it cooks. Do you have to open the MPO to do this? If you can figure out a way to do this without opening you could certainly save some heat loss.

jb
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 25, 2012, 10:51:24 AM
You have mentioned having to rotate the pizza as it cooks. Do you have to open the MPO to do this? If you can figure out a way to do this without opening you could certainly save some heat loss.

jb

Yes,  I have to open the MPO to rotate, my thoughts, it take less than 10 to 20 seconds to do that, any heat lost is being replaced very quickly, plus even when MPO is lifted, MPO still being heated by the rising heat.

I am working on an ajustable pizza rotating device, which will allow you to rotate stone while baking. I posted a picture of in previous posts.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 25, 2012, 10:56:44 AM
Yes,  I have to open the MPO to rotate, my thoughts, it take less than 10 to 20 seconds to do that,
That is about one quarter of your NP cooking time...
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 25, 2012, 11:11:38 AM
That is about one quarter of your NP cooking time...

For NP, I have to have a pizza stone turnning device to avoid ,lifting MPO during NP baking and to get even temperature across bottom stone.  I am waiting on my second protoptype to manufactured. This device not required for baking  within 3 to 4 minutes.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 25, 2012, 11:23:08 AM
Bert, Don't you think it would be wise/beneficial to get your current oven really dialed in to consistent, pie after pie, 3-4 minute bakes and then see if you can get more out of something you have good control/knowledge of? It seems like you are spinning your wheels trying to put the cart before the horse...

The grill is very attractive and there are plenty of people with higher end grill/outdoor kitchen setups that would be very impressed to see some killer 3-4 min. pies coming out of their rigs...jus another thought.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 25, 2012, 01:50:02 PM
Don't you think it would be wise/beneficial to get your current oven really dialed in to consistent, pie after pie, 3-4 minute bakes and then see if you can get more out of something you have good control/knowledge of?

Yes, but I am still concerns, with Scott comment. "This is a 2stone + additional features"
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2012, 06:59:13 PM »


I am not sure what the other device is capable of, I wasn’t able to find anything online to describe it’s performance in heating time,  baking time and heating source rating. So, I don't know if MPO cooks faster, heat faster, just based on the design, I think It does.

I believe my design is unique; otherwise I would have not filed for a patent.
 
I guess, I am trying to get MPO to do something that the other device is not capable of without any doubts.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: juniorballoon on July 25, 2012, 02:34:05 PM
I really like this idea, but after searching on google, finding and reading this thread here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5541.20 , which I'm sure you've also seen, the 2stone seems to be very similar to the MPO. It has a turntable stone, gets to about 700 degrees and seems to cook a nice pizza. My biggest problem is the price. $334 for the 15 1/2 inch version. Too much for me by about half. At $175, I'd be ordering one today.

jb
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 25, 2012, 02:39:39 PM
Yes, but I am still concerns, with Scott comment. "This is a 2stone + additional features"
« Reply #38 on: July 18, 2012, 06:59:13 PM »


I am not sure what the other device is capable of, I wasn’t able to find anything online to describe it’s performance in heating time,  baking time and heating source rating. So, I don't know if MPO cooks faster, heat faster, just based on the design, I think It does.


 
[color=red]I guess, I am trying to get MPO to do something that the other device is not capable of without any doubts.

O.K. yes, we understand that Bert and that is great.    Now....if you can FIRST achieve at least what the other device does.....THEN it would be easier for you to know what is needed to accomplish NP.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 25, 2012, 02:44:39 PM
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5541.msg47016.html#msg47016
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 25, 2012, 03:51:24 PM
After reading that forum, based on the results I had with MPO, I am positive that MPO can do as good job 2stone grill does, no longer sure if it perform better... I have been using MPO since march... I had different homemade versions of MPO.... Results are greats...

I think I mentioned this before, in my patent, I have two designs to move the upper stone up and down, one uses railing (current prototype) and the other one uses screw gear. I decided to go with railing due to its simplicity for manufacturing and cost. The other design requires more custom tooling which cost more and requires larger minimum order but offer adjustment of top stone as you bake. I don't think anyone would question that design uniqueness. That would be the next model If I ever had success launching 1st version of MPO.



JB, cost wise, it will be difficult to reach your price range ... due to material and fabrication cost
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 25, 2012, 05:20:11 PM
The other design requires more custom tooling which cost more and requires larger minimum order but offer adjustment of top stone as you bake. I don't think anyone would question that design uniqueness.
Just because it is unique does not make it useful.On a sub 2 min. NP bake I doubt anyone will want to play with a crank handle while peel turning and concentrating on the pie.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Kamado Pizza on July 25, 2012, 05:51:13 PM
You need to find a friend with a green egg or Kamado, and try this bad boy on one of those.  Huge market for that I'd bet.

What about putting it on top of a turkey burner?

I use a Kamado for pizza.  I use a lava stone suspended on a bracket just above the fire bowl.  Then I place a pizza stone on the lowest cooking grate.  There are a few inches all the way around the lava stone and the pizza stone which allows hot air up into the dome of the Kamado which heats the topside of the pie.  It takes less than 5-minutes to make a beautiful pizza.

I don't think the Mighty Pizza Oven would be of any use in a Kamado.  Mine is very thick ceramic and I don't need a device like that.  But, I can't believe there are pizza ovens out there designed for the gas grill.  Google was not my friend when searching or I may have bought one instead of a Kamado and saved myself $800.  On that subject, the price will be important.  There are large sized Kamados out there right now starting at $600.  There are even double wall steel Kamados out there for $300.  These things can easily reach 600F and you get that wood-fired taste.  Kamados burn real lump charcoal, not briquettes.  You can also toss in chunks of the the wood of your choice.  Also, as Alton Brown would say, a Kamado is not a uni-tasker.  But...I love your idea and would have definitely considered buying one.

Love this site!
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 25, 2012, 06:02:46 PM
Bob,


The screw type design allow you to bring top stone to touch grill grates  during heating and move it up to your desire level , top stone heating will be much faster and  can achieve higher temperature, also it allow top stone to be very close to the food , pizza or bread etc...  My current design you have to set the height before you start heating, once it is hot, you can't change it till it cool down, plus you have limited level setting.  NP would been easier to achieve with the screw gear design . It is definitely harder to manufacture.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 25, 2012, 07:16:15 PM
 Size, materials, design all play a role in how much heat you are going to get so don't buy a grill simply because it has a high BTU rating. Compare that number to the square inches of primary grilling area to get an idea of how well this grill might heat. As a very general rule of thumb I like to see about 100 BTUs for each square inch, or at least somewhere in that range. For example a grill with 500 square inches and 50,000 BTUs from the main burners probably produces a good amount of heat. If the BTUs where 40,000 under 500 square inches it might not produce enough heat.
Remember that the BTU rating for a grill is the total amount of heat output by all the burners per hour. This is typically measured not by the actual heat output of a grill but by the fuel consumption of the burners. Since propane has a BTU rating of 15,000 BTUs per pound a 30,000 BTU grill would consume 2 pounds per hour. The higher the BTUs the more frequently you will be getting your tank filled.

Gas grill manufacturers are aware that people tend to look at the BTU rating as a sign of power. They can advertise high numbers for a grill that just doesn't get hot and most large grills make a big deal of their BTU number. Manufacturers also try to make sure that their grill can reach a decent temperature. Of course they all have different opinions as to what that temperature should be.

Tthe BTU measurement is related to the size of the burner. Gas grills can range from 5,000 to 200,000 BTU’s, and most 2-burner grills do not exceed 40,000 BTU’s

info taken from Keidel website.

I just don't see how an average American family grill is ever going to give you enough unmodded heat for a NP bake...no matter what you do to the MPO.
I find it quite curious your asking many basic questions. Questions that one would assuse you would already know the answers to given your highacclaims for what the MPO is capable of producing. I don't know Bert...
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 25, 2012, 07:34:42 PM
Thanks Kamado,MPO is not every type of grill, and it will never bake as good as Wfo. But, It is a viable alternative for people like myself, who wants to bake a quality pizza but don't want to invest too much into an oven, don't have space for Wfo, low maintenance, easy to operate, another alternative to pizzakettle, 2stone grill, or DIY

I have have been experimenting with different designs for my own use, this one made most sense for my needs.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 25, 2012, 07:56:20 PM
Now you're talk'in Bert... ;)

And I wouldn't be too concerned about that $175 price jb mentioned. No way can anyone get that much stainless at that price...it is a very handsome unit.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Kamado Pizza on July 25, 2012, 08:37:12 PM
I need to bring bottom stone temperature down... I think I can do it cheaply by placing and 13" aluminum disk under stone. I used to use these aluminum disks to prevent ceramic disk from breaking... The smallest disk I have is 14" Need to get a 13" one.

Again, this was a quick test.... Hopefully, one of the well know forum members will be willing to witness next test and help take more readings and documents MPO results...

Cooking over lump charcoal requires a diffuser.  I use a 3/4" thick lava stone diffuser and then a few inches above that is the pizza stone in a kamado.  I tried to post photos using photobucket as I have at other forums, but, for some reason, I get messages telling me the files are too big.

Sorry, I already said the piece about the lava stone diffuser.  Dang.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 25, 2012, 08:48:20 PM
Bob,

I just don't see how an average American family grill is ever going to give you enough unmodded heat for a NP bake...no matter what you do to the MPO.

I am not claiming it can, I am still experimenting, I have not exhausted all my ideas, so I am still hopeful. May be a lost cause, but I like the challenged.

I find it quite curious your asking many basic questions. Questions that one would assuse you would already know the answers to given your highclaims for what the MPO is capable of producing. I don't know Bert...

I am not sure what which question you are referring to. Believe it or not I don't know everything. Some areas I am stronger at than other. Again, I only claimed what MPO is capable of based on my experience. 
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 25, 2012, 08:56:31 PM
And I wouldn't be too concerned about that $175 price jb mentioned. No way can anyone get that much stainless at that price...it is a very handsome unit.

I was referring to 2stone also, not cheap to produce.. unless you are producing high volume.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Kamado Pizza on July 25, 2012, 09:03:21 PM
MPO,
As a consumer, I really like your design.  I think it is much more attractive than the 2 stone that keeps getting mentioned.  In your reply made earlier to my post, you defined your market a little better.  It is for the average backyard griller who wants to make a good pizza at home.  If it can get up to the temps I've seen during my quick read of the thread, you can make pizza.  I think a diffuser above the intense charcoal heat below is all it needs to stop burning your crust.  Then, you need a one size fits all or almost all grills that can sell for less than the average backyard gas grill.  If you are able to get it manufactured, I think you can sell them online.  I think your biggest competition will not come from a small competitor like 2stone, but someone like Brinkman or Char-Broil or Weber.  Those guys can come up with their own version that does not violate any patent and sell them in big box stores. BTW, if you are selling these online, you'll have to keep an eye on the weight. 
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 25, 2012, 09:03:48 PM
Cooking over lump charcoal requires a diffuser.  I use a 3/4" thick lava stone diffuser and then a few inches above that is the pizza stone in a kamado.


JB, I have more basic questions: (Bob  ;))

Do you use diffuser because you are using a ceramic pizza stone?

How much coal do you use? and how many pizza do you cook with it?

Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 25, 2012, 09:17:43 PM
Bob,

I am not claiming it can, I am still experimenting, I have not exhausted all my ideas, so I am still hopeful. May be a lost cause, but I like the challenged.

I am not sure what which question you are referring to. Believe it or not I don't know everything. Some areas I am stronger at than other. Again, I only claimed what MPO is capable of based on my experience. 

Well, it really doesn't matter about the questions, Bert. As long as you are enjoying the tinkering with this thing then that is all that really matters.....I hope you succeed with your project.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 25, 2012, 09:22:07 PM
I see your already responded to my question about the defuser.

As a consumer, I really like your design.  

Thanks

Then, you need a one size fits all or almost all grills that can sell for less than the average backyard gas grill.  


That's a big challenge in the beginning ...

you'll have to keep an eye on the weight.  

it is heavy, hence the two handles on the sides... I have not looked into shipping cost.



Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Kamado Pizza on July 25, 2012, 09:23:50 PM

JB, I have more basic questions: (Bob  ;))

Do you use diffuser because you are using a ceramic pizza stone?

How much coal do you use? and how many pizza do you cook with it?



You addressed JB in your question, but quoted me.  So I'll give an answer:

In a kitchen oven set to bake, the oven gets hot and then the heat source turns off.  On a charcoal grill, the heat is controlled by reducing the air flow.  But the heat source is still there.  The diffuser stone directs the heat up and around the diffuser and then to the top.  It creates convection.  In grills like weber kettles and kamados, this works well because they have domed tops.  Since I use a kamado and lump charcoal, I fill the fire bowl close to full.  Lump can get really hot and the ceramic kamado holds heat extremely well.  When the temp is about 100 away from the desired point, you have to start adjusting the lower intake and upper vents.  Grills like Webers using briquettes can be cooled down easier than a kamado.  If you exceed your temp on a kamado, it takes a looong time to reduce it.  Once I have it going at around 600F, I can bake as many pizzas as I can make.  So in a nutshell, the diffuser radiates the extreme heat below up and around.  In a wood fired oven, the fire is next to the cooking area, not under it.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 25, 2012, 09:24:07 PM
Kamado, have you seen this site?   http://www.nakedwhiz.com/pizza.htm
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 25, 2012, 09:35:13 PM
Well, it really doesn't matter about the questions, Bert. As long as you are enjoying the tinkering with this thing then that is all that really matters.....I hope you succeed with your project.

Thanks Bob, My profession is engineering, over the years, we became more paper pushers than actually designing stuff... So this something definitely I enjoyed designing, building and using...
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on July 25, 2012, 09:44:15 PM
You addressed JB in your question, but quoted me.  So I'll give an answer:

Sorry about that...

I am not familiar Kamado, how much coal it takes to fill the fire bowl close to full??
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on August 03, 2012, 07:28:37 AM
I found this report "2011 State of the Barbecue Industry Report " http://www.hpba.org/media/barbecue-industry/2011-state-of-the-barbecue-industry-report "

Total Gas Grills Shipments (57 percent of sales) – 8,553,500
Total Charcoal Grills Shipments (41 percent of sales) – 6,232,500
Total Electric Grills Shipments (2 percent of sales) – 276,600

Forty percent of consumers have a large moveable grill system on a modest patio/deck, with some outdoor furniture and an informal place to eat.

Meats, including burgers (85 percent), steak (80 percent), hot dogs (79 percent), and chicken (73 percent) top the list of the most popular foods prepared using a grill – followed by sausage/bratwurst (55 percent), ribs (53 percent) and pork chops (50 percent).

Will be nice to have pizza added to the list :D




Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on August 03, 2012, 07:49:55 AM
MPO starting point would be to target gas grill consumers with a large moveable grill ... With a retail price of $375 .

I am looking at launching MPO on kickstarter at $299 not including shipping. MPO wieght about 25 LB.

What your thoughts about the launching and retail pricing?

Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: shuboyje on August 03, 2012, 07:59:37 AM
For $289 I can get a 2 stone pizza grill that has a track record and is made in America.  More money for a product with no track record and that is made in china will be a tough sell for me.  Curious what others have to say.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 03, 2012, 08:07:32 AM
Yes price needs to come down by at least 50...$229.00 sounds even better. Find out how much it's gonna cost to ship (Fed-X account, etc.) and maybe you'll be able to recoup some of the markdown back in the form of shipping and handling. If the average grill is only $375 then you need to stay away from that $300 figure for your unit.


How much cheaper is black painted steel vs stainless? Maybe you could do the back and sides in black an the top and face in stainless. Or vise-a-versa...would still be a very attractive eyecatching product.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Tscarborough on August 03, 2012, 09:48:41 AM
Having made two pies in it, I can tell you that as currently configured it is almost a 2 man operation to use.  No complaints about how it cooks, it just needs tweaking on the usability.

First, the instructions need to stress that aluminum foil should cover the areas not covered by the unit itself.  Second, I think that the top and front need to be hinged such that to insert a pizza, you are not lifting the entire unit.  The lifting handle needs to be heatproofed, ie a spring handle or something.  The chimney is not needed (a slot in the ceiling would work as well) as it interferes with the grill lid.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on August 03, 2012, 03:29:59 PM
Thank you Tom for your feedback.

Having made two pies in it, I can tell you that as currently configured it is almost a 2 man operation to use.

I should of wrote few instruction before passing MPO to Craig, with little practice one person should be able to do it. 

Second, I think that the top and front need to be hinged such that to insert a pizza, you are not lifting the entire unit. 

You shouldn't need to lift the entire unit, just lift  the front with one hand and load or remove the pizza with the other hand. A short video definitely would of helped... I will work on making one ... and see if it would of made things easier.

The lifting handle needs to be heatproofed, ie a spring handle or something.


I have made a spring handle sample made, I should have have it soon.


The chimney is not needed (a slot in the ceiling would work as well) as it interferes with the grill lid.

I have not been able to measure air flow out of the chimney, I tried to use an air guage once, the blades melted instantly. Just by observation, the chimney seems to pull air faster..

Did you find that is necessary to close grill lid?  MPO should have enough heat to bake with out the need to close grill lid or put foil. these steps will help getting MPO hot faster, bu it is necessary to do.

Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on August 03, 2012, 03:50:44 PM
I need to be more creative to lower the cost without compromising quality... and still make it profitable .
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: wheelman on August 03, 2012, 04:12:52 PM
i enjoyed playing with the MPO last week too.  we cooked two pies, both at about 4 min.  i think it works well.  the point Tom made was correct though  the depth of the MPO was about the same as Craig's grill so to pick up the MPO you had to scoot it away from the back of the grill to make room for the leaning back of the MPO.  then, to close the MPO, it had to be moved back in, which wasn't an easy one hand move.  We all thought that a hinge on the top of the back panel would make this easy.  i don't know about pricing but as an accessory to a high end grill it seems like an attractive unit. 
best luck!
bill
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: pizzaneer on August 03, 2012, 06:31:09 PM
Did you find that is necessary to close grill lid?  MPO should have enough heat to bake with out the need to close grill lid or put foil. these steps will help getting MPO hot faster, bu it is necessary to do.



  I think what Tom was pointing out was that the chimney hits the lid of the grill when the MPO is lifted all the way into an upright position - to the point that the MPO cannot be freestanding in a vertical position without moving it on the grill. 
  Maybe lifting it all the way is not what you do.  Do you lift the MPO just far enough to launch the pie, or do you lift it all the way?
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: wheelman on August 03, 2012, 07:21:10 PM
the chimney just keeps the lid on the grill from closing.  the MPO is right up against the back of the grill.  we didn't have to pick it up very far to launch. 
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: pizzaneer on August 03, 2012, 08:33:16 PM
Aha!  Nothing like eyewitnesses! 

IMO, if the lid of the grill can't close, ppl won't be very happy.  I know I wouldn't be.  Rain, bugs, critters...

Maybe the chimney could be cut down / slanted / relocated?
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 03, 2012, 08:56:20 PM
IMO, if the lid of the grill can't close, ppl won't be very happy.  I know I wouldn't be.  Rain, bugs, critters...

It's not ncessary for the grill lid to close. The MPO becomes the lid.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Tscarborough on August 03, 2012, 09:02:25 PM
Yeah, but I bet you could pick up another 100 degrees if it did, plus, from a manufacturing standpoint, the chimney is a significant cost of production, and I question if it is needed at all, a simple slot would serve the same purpose.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 03, 2012, 09:14:49 PM
I think it  would be good if the grill lid closed, you could store MPO in there....no need to wait for cooldown to move etc.  People don't like to leave the grill lid open.....
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: pizzaneer on August 03, 2012, 10:00:37 PM
I think it  would be good if the grill lid closed, you could store MPO in there....no need to wait for cooldown to move etc.  People don't like to leave the grill lid open.....

That's what I meant, if it wasn't clear- the lid MUST SHUT!
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 03, 2012, 10:12:13 PM
CASE, I mean lid, CLOSED!!   :-D
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on August 04, 2012, 08:08:32 AM
If the average grill is only $375 then you need to stay away from that $300 figure for your unit.

My best option at this stage is to target high end outdoor kitchen suppliers with grill units price over $2000. 

to come up with a cheaper MPO, I need to commit to huge number of units.

Yeah, but I bet you could pick up another 100 degrees if it did, plus, from a manufacturing standpoint, the chimney is a significant cost of production, and I question if it is needed at all, a simple slot would serve the same purpose.

Current MPO will not fit every grill. With high end grills, closing the lid may not be an issue. I will start visiting some the local high end grills suppliers and see how MPO fits in these units. These grills will have high BTU, you will reach higher temperature without the need to close.

MPO chimney is removable, you can operate with or without it.  I am looking for ways how to test the air flow and justify the need. It does add a significant cost to the unit. Another option is to offer the chimney as an accessory.

Th
the point Tom made was correct though  the depth of the MPO was about the same as Craig's grill so to pick up the MPO you had to scoot it away from the back of the grill to make room for the leaning back of the MPO.  then, to close the MPO, it had to be moved back in, which wasn't an easy one hand move.  We all thought that a hinge on the top of the back panel would make this easy.

I don't have a burner on the back of my grill, when I lift MPO with my left hand, MPO back comes in contact with the grill  back, and MPO slide forward as I lift. To place back MPO, I do have to slide it back. I place the bottom stone couple inches from the back to allow for MPO to move back and forth. Which also allow for more heat to flow over from the back, to heat top stone and bake pizza top faster. You have to rotate the pizza couple of time to for even backing all around.

I am still waiting on my prototype to allow turning the stone through the front window. To keep the cost down, I planning to offer it as an accessory.

MPO is intended for one person operation, if it require two persons to operate, it will not be successful.

I need to create short video on how to operate, and have different people try to use MPO and see if that would help. This is a major hurdle.

Thanks again for every one feedback and inputs. Looking forward for Craig inputs.







 
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 04, 2012, 09:02:21 AM
Bert,
I can tell you right now that if that oven has to slide forward on the hot grill grate while lifting the lid ...you are in for a BIG BIG problem. Faster than you can say Bob's your Uncle...you will get returns and reviews that say people are scared of it.
WE know it's no big deal, but I'm tell'in ya bruddah.... :angel:
Can you angle down the back half and get rid of the boxiness that's hindering lid movement? This would pick you up some favorable air deflection too, no?

Bob
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Jet_deck on August 04, 2012, 09:25:57 AM
One thing that needs to be mentioned to MPO is that "we" (Craig) left the MPO's bottom stone in the "carry" position above the top stone.  "We" used one of Craig's stones for the bottom stone for the MPO.  That made the MPO a bit heavier than it normally would be.  It cooked Peter's emergency NY dough perfectly in 4 minutes.  I don't know if the added mass in the roof had any positive effects on the 4 minute cook time.

I can say first hand that out of the box, the MPO cooked the pizza very nicely.  Much better than any hacks I had done personally on my gas bbq grill or my pellet grill.  I was adamant that the exhaust be in the off position and that the front door was left off.  The first pizza was a bit charred on the edge closest to the rear, because we didn't turn the pizza.  Bill did turn the second one at 2 minutes and it came out nicely.

Just my $.02 :chef: :pizza:
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 04, 2012, 09:42:04 AM
  I was adamant that the exhaust be in the off position and that the front door was left off. 
Good call...
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: shuboyje on August 04, 2012, 11:12:24 AM
Here is a list of Local 54 Sheetmetal contractors in the Houston area.  You will see many of them labeled as Air Balance.  They will be able to test your air flow and if they are like the contractors around here would probably do it at no charge if you come to them.

http://www.local54.org/contractors.asp

Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on August 04, 2012, 12:48:56 PM
One thing that needs to be mentioned to MPO is that "we" (Craig) left the MPO's bottom stone in the "carry" position above the top stone.  "We" used one of Craig's stones for the bottom stone for the MPO.  That made the MPO a bit heavier than it normally would be.  It cooked Peter's emergency NY dough perfectly in 4 minutes.  I don't know if the added mass in the roof had any positive effects on the 4 minute cook time.

In my grill setup, I usually keep front opening closed and chimney fully open. I find my pies bake faster and get better browning all around. I do rotate my pies couple of time.

Heavier top stone mass will be needed for higher temperature... For 500 to 600 deg baking, thin stone has been sufficient.

Hopefully Peter can share his emergency NY dough recipe with me... It looked kind of complicated, if it require a calculator... My dough is one hour dough, the only thing I measure is flour and water using mesuring cup.

I can say first hand that out of the box, the MPO cooked the pizza very nicely.  Much better than any hacks I had done personally on my gas bbq grill or my pellet grill. 

Thanks.. I have gone though fire bricks, steel plate using indoor and my grill. Nothing made sense except my current prototype. I designed MPO to meet all my needs, and now trying to make it fit other people needs.

Just my $.02 :chef: :pizza:

More than $.02, it is priceless, I do appreciate yours and every one input.  Till I started this thread, most MPO discussions has been between me, myself and I.... Lots of day dreaming... I thought how I want to operate it before I built it, may be that's why it has been very easy for me to operate MPO.

I can tell you right now that if that oven has to slide forward on the hot grill grate while lifting the lid ...you are in for a BIG BIG problem. Faster than you can say Bob's your Uncle...you will get returns and reviews that say people are scared of it.

It is a major concern for me, I always took it for granted... I need to evaluate it more, see if preparing customers to what to expect, will make any difference

Can you angle down the back half and get rid of the boxiness that's hindering lid movement? This would pick you up some favorable air deflection too, no?

I thought about doing that, but decided not to, I wanted to maximize direct heat to top stone.

Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on August 04, 2012, 12:52:22 PM
http://www.local54.org/contractors.asp

Thanks,
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Pete-zza on August 04, 2012, 01:16:58 PM
Hopefully Peter can share his emergency NY dough recipe with me... It looked kind of complicated, if it require a calculator... My dough is one hour dough, the only thing I measure is flour and water using measuring cup.

Bert,

The reason I needed the calculator is because I had to do all the calculations by hand the old fashioned way. I had my iPad with me but it does not have Flash functionality, which is needed to use the dough calculating tools.

I think I can reconstruct the emergency dough recipe by memory or at least something close to it. Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, I would say that the dough formulation I used, for the purpose of making two 13" pizzas, based on a thickness factor of 0.09, was something very close to this:

King Arthur Bread Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
ADY (1%):
Salt (2%):
Olive Oil (2%):
Total (167%):
Single Ball:
405.59 g  |  14.31 oz | 0.89 lbs
251.46 g  |  8.87 oz | 0.55 lbs
4.06 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.07 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
8.11 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.45 tsp | 0.48 tbsp
8.11 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.8 tsp | 0.6 tbsp
677.33 g | 23.89 oz | 1.49 lbs | TF = 0.09
338.67 g | 11.95 oz | 0.75 lbs

In making the dough, I took a small part of the total formula water, at around 105 degrees F, and rehydrated the ADY in it for about 10 minutes. I then heated the remaining water to around 120 degrees F and dissolved the salt in it and added the oil. All of the liquids went into a bowl to which I gradually added the flour. I did all the mixing and kneading by hand. Once the dough was done, I divided it into two pieces of around 12 ounces each. To get the dough balls to rise fast, since Craig's home was air-conditioned and cool, I put the two dough balls (coated with oil and placed into separate lightly sealed containers) outside near the grill where it was quite warm. I put a couple of spaced-apart fennel seeds (1") on each dough ball (on the tops of the dough balls) in order to monitor the degree of rise. I didn't note the time that the dough balls spent outside but the spacing of the fennel seeds suggested that the dough balls had increased in size by about 275%. I was looking for something between a doubling and a tripling in volume.

If Craig kept my notes, perhaps to put in a scrapbook for posterity, I can refine the dough formulation if I missed something. For example, I do not think that I added any sugar to the dough, for fear that the high bake temperatures would cause the bottoms of the crusts to darken prematurely or even burn.

Peter
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 04, 2012, 01:26:51 PM
Why does the oven even need to be lifted? Can you not make the front door the complete width of the face of the oven?
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Jet_deck on August 04, 2012, 01:36:13 PM
You gotta get the peel with the skin on it in there and place on the stone.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 04, 2012, 01:52:37 PM
You gotta get the peel with the skin on it in there and place on the stone.
And notching out the aprox.1in. of material on each side of the door exposing the whole face of the insert, and then making a wider door...this won't work?
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: pizzaneer on August 04, 2012, 02:31:08 PM
I would think you need a certain amount of height to get the skin to slide off the peel - less chance of unplanned calzone.
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: shuboyje on August 04, 2012, 02:39:33 PM
I've long had the same question about LBE's.  Why not just make the front vent big enough to launch the pie? 
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 04, 2012, 02:43:24 PM
I would think you need a certain amount of height to get the skin to slide off the peel - less chance of unplanned calzone.
Well, I hear what you're saying....I was jus think'in that if Bert's gonna target the high-end grill owners he could maybe also sell those fancy peels (like Craig's)...don't those allow more control/maneuverability?
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Michael130207 on August 04, 2012, 02:50:04 PM

I put a couple of spaced-apart fennel seeds (1") on each dough ball (on the tops of the dough balls) in order to monitor the degree of rise. I didn't note the time that the dough balls spent outside but the spacing of the fennel seeds suggested that the dough balls had increased in size by about 275%. I was looking for something between a doubling and a tripling in volume.
Peter

Pete,

That is genius, I always feel I am not properly estimating how much my dough has increased in volume and this is such a simple elegant way to do it. Thank you! How much of an increase in distance between the seeds do you feel corresponds to a doubling? If the volume of a hemisphere is related to the cube of the radius then it seems a 25% increase in circumference corresponds to a doubling of volume. Is that what you use or is it different in practice?
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Pete-zza on August 04, 2012, 03:17:50 PM
Pete,

That is genius, I always feel I am not properly estimating how much my dough has increased in volume and this is such a simple elegant way to do it. Thank you! How much of an increase in distance between the seeds do you feel corresponds to a doubling? If the volume of a hemisphere is related to the cube of the radius then it seems a 25% increase in circumference corresponds to a doubling of volume. Is that what you use or is it different in practice?

Michael,

It was member November who taught me that little trick, and I subsequently started a thread on the subject at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.msg59335.html#msg59335. Once the 1" spacing becomes a bit more than 1.25", that represents a doubling (it is about 1.25 cubed).

The method doesn't work in all cases with all kinds of doughs and containers but for the purposes at Craig's place it was good enough.

Peter
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: buceriasdon on August 04, 2012, 06:12:40 PM
Jeff, With my LBE, which I have to say upfront is not a Weber grill, I tried that and found the "venturi effect" was seriously negated, I not longer had the superheated air rushing out the vent and my bake time dropped considerably. Maybe others would have better success. I just recently suggested to someone else here they cut the front third to half off creating a door and use two small hinges close together at the top of the dome to be able place the pizza when lifted up. I will also admit :-[ I never posted anything about this idea to the LBE topic. To me it's become a off topic wasteland that is of no interest to me. I am presently working on an upper and lower two burner kettle type oven that will have this front door and will post to a seperate thread.
Don

I've long had the same question about LBE's.  Why not just make the front vent big enough to launch the pie? 
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: shuboyje on August 04, 2012, 07:19:50 PM
Don,

Not to go too far off topic, but can you explain the Venturi effect you mention?

Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 04, 2012, 09:33:08 PM
This was getting a little off topic, so I posted my review of the MPO after testing it here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20334.msg199996.html#msg199996

CL
Title: Re: Introducing Mighty Pizza Oven
Post by: Bert on August 05, 2012, 10:05:07 AM
Thanks Peter for the detail recipe... I will  create another thread for recipe, I have lot to learn.

I like to move MPO discussion to Craig MPO thread, Just quick comment before doing so, Lifting MPO allow users to have more access and room to pies..

Great feedback every one.