Pizza Making Forum

General Topics => Ingredients & Resources => Dough Ingredients => Topic started by: mitchjg on November 01, 2014, 11:40:02 AM

Title: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on November 01, 2014, 11:40:02 AM
In reading through "The Pizza Bible", it looks like Tony Gemignani is putting disastatic malt in almost every dough, including dough with Caputo 00. 

I have never used diastatic malt in pizza and only a could of times with bread.  A couple of questions:

1 any experiences, positive or negative, with diastatic malt and pizza dough?  Recommendations?

2 I have an unopened, sealed package with an expiration of December '13.  If I use it in a pizza dough will I get the cooties, die, food poisoning, poor pizza dough handling, whatever?

- Mitch
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on November 02, 2014, 09:59:44 AM
Mitch,

I have had somewhat limited experience using diastatic malt, so I may not be the best one to comment on its value. In my case, I have not found a need to use diastatic malt often. I believe it is because almost all domestic white flours, which represents the bulk of the flours I have used over the years, are malted at the mill. However, there are a small number of flours that are available in unmalted form, both at the retail level and at the commercial level. For example, General Mills has about four or five unmalted flours in its flour lineup, including a couple of organic flours (in its Sperry line) and its Neapolitan flour that is the GM counterpart to the imported 00 flours. But that is out of a total of about 50 flours that can be used to make pizza dough. Cook Natural Products is another name that sells unmalted flours at the commercial level. At the retail level, both Bob's Red Mill and Hodgson Mill offer unmalted flours, as you will note if you go to their websites. And, as you know, the 00 flours are unmalted. So, out of a universe of hundreds of white flours, the unmalted versions are relatively small in number.

As background on the malting of flours and to set the stage for my discussion below, you might take a look at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,30654.msg306208.html#msg306208 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,30654.msg306208.html#msg306208).

I am surprised that Tony G is such a big fan of diastatic malt. However, I recall from my reading of recipes in Prof. Calvel's book, The Taste of Bread, that he was also a big fan of using diastatic malt. When he discussed its purpose, it was to deal with the problem of flour diastasticity and, in particular, hypodiastaticity, which is a condition that manifests itself "in sluggish fermentation, lower loaf volume, and a pale, thick crust". He also noted that the bread formulas in his book that involved preferments contained more diastatic malt than his straight dough recipes. This was to compensate for diastaticity "eaten up" during long fermentations. I mention this last point because you indicated in Reply 51 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,30759.msg346189.html#msg346189 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,30759.msg346189.html#msg346189) that Tony G uses preferments for a large number of his doughs. I wouldn't have thought that Tony was such an acolyte or disciple of Prof. Calvel.

To see how far Prof. Calvel took the use of diastatic malt, I looked at the recipes where he used it. There are over 150 recipes in Prof. Calvel's book and, out of all of those, there are a couple of dozen or so that call for diastatic malt. There are only a small number of those that are for straight bread doughs. The vast majority of them are for prefermented doughs. The amounts of diastatic malt ranged from 0.20% to 1.5%. However, the higher values were for specialty bread products, not for regular bread doughs. For those, the amounts of diastatic malt were from about 0.20-0.50%, with the prefermented doughs using more diastatic malt than straight doughs. I can only surmise that Prof. Calvel used diastatic malt because the primarily French flours that he used were naturally low in enzymes to break down the damaged starch, and that there was less damaged starch in the flours to begin with, as is also the case with 00 flours.

You might also be interested to know that Didier Rosada, whose own work was influenced by Prof. Calvel, also talks about using diastatic malt in long-fermented preferments, under the heading "Secondary effects of the preferment", at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm).

Prof. Calvel was also very fond of using ascorbic acid in his recipes. I'd be curious to know if Tony G calls for ascorbic acid in his recipes.

As for your outdated diastatic malt, I would be surprised if any harm would befall you from its use. However, as with most things that age, with wine and some cheeses excepted, the performance of the dough in which it is used may be less than optimal. So, you might have to increase the amount used to offset any negative effects attributable to the age of the malt.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on November 03, 2014, 01:58:08 PM
Peter:

Thank you for the very informed and informative reply.  I appreciate it.  To add a few points/factoids/questons:

I have not checked every flour but most of the flours recommended by Tony in his recipes are malted.  For example, the "Master Dough" flour recommendation list includes All Trumps, Pendleton Power, Giusto High Performer and KA Sir Lancelot - all malted.

The typical malt percentage that Tony uses is around 2%, much higher than the range you mention with regards to Prof. Calvel's writings.

In another thread, I complained that my dough had over-fermented with only 0.2% IDY, 74 degree final dough temperature and a 3 day ferment (it looked pretty overdone at 2 days).  Based on your mention of diastatic malt used more for doughs with preferments and also your comment about 00 flour, I wonder if that was my problem.  My dough had 20% poolish (100% hydrated and therefore 10% of total flour) and the flour in the recipe was 50% KAAP and 50% Caputo 00.  See here:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34866.msg346871.html#msg346871

Can you comment / hypothesize on that?

Regards,
Mitch

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on November 03, 2014, 02:53:25 PM
Mitch,

I gave you the full reply because I was puzzled why Tony G would use diastatic malt for so many of his doughs. Even with preferments, it is not typical to add diastatic malt. It is added usually to solve a problem. I even wondered why Prof. Calvel used it so often but I did not find the reason in his book for doing so. When I looked at the table of contents and index of the book, there was no entry for either malt or diastatic. After thinking about this, I recalled that Prof. Calvel used French flours, such as Type 45 flour and Type 55, the latter of which is commonly used for making bread. Typically European flours during Prof. Calvel's day were on the soft side and perhaps were milled from flours that had less damaged starch than our flours here in the U.S. So, adding diastatic malt, along with ascorbic acid, would have made sense.

Where I most frequently see diastatic malt added to flours is in the case of organic flours that are unmalted. A while back, we had a professional member, AnnieK, who was having problems with her use of organic flour. Scott123 and I walked her through the selection and use of diastatic malt. For details, you can read through the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22942.msg232602.html#msg232602 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22942.msg232602.html#msg232602) but the use of diastatic malt helped her very much (e.g., see Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22942.msg237438.html#msg237438 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22942.msg237438.html#msg237438)). I might add, and as also noted in the first thread referenced above, that King Arthur's organic flours are malted. They apparently feel the malt is needed for best baking results using their organic flours.

I could see someone adding diastatic malt to an untreated or unenriched flour, such as a 00 flour, but not with flours that are already malted, although I am sure that some baker somewhere might have a reason for adding a bit more malt to achieve specific objectives. It would be interesting to know specifically how Tony came upon the idea of adding more diastatic malt to the flours that you mentioned. That would be unusual. Even in the case of 00 flour it would be unusual because diastatic malt can increase the residual sugars, which might not be a good idea for a pizza that is to be baked at temperature of around 800-1000 degrees F. But it could be a good idea for a 00-based dough that is to be baked in a standard home oven where the sugar can be tolerated.

But, to summarize, I do not think that your dough performed the way it did because you did not use diastatic malt.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: dsissitka on November 03, 2014, 04:13:21 PM
I'd be curious to know if Tony G calls for ascorbic acid in his recipes.

No. It looks like it was removed but in one of the pre-launch samples ascorbic acid was one of the reasons Tony gave for avoiding IDY. No sugar either.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on November 03, 2014, 05:01:52 PM
Mitch,

Following up on my last post, do you suppose that in his new book Tony G meant to say nondiastatic malt, which is an alternative form of sweetener, rather than diastatic malt, which is a source on enzymes to work on damaged starch?

For example, a few years ago, Tony penned an article for Pizza Today, at http://www.pizzatoday.com/departments/in-the-kitchen/2013-march-respecting-the-craft/ (http://www.pizzatoday.com/departments/in-the-kitchen/2013-march-respecting-the-craft/), in which he provided two pizza dough recipes called Standard Classic America and Standard Classic Italian. Notably, those recipes called for "malt/sugar". Such a word pairing would strongly suggest that the malt is a sweetener, not a source on enzymes to work on damaged starch.

The above Pizza Today recipes led me to search for other dough recipes by Tony G to see if any of them called for sugar or a form of barley malt that might have been a sweetener. As it turned out, I found some of the dough recipes from Tony's new book, at:

http://eatdrinkfilms.com/2014/10/16/the-pizza-bible-by-tony-gemignani-with-susie-heller-and-steve-siegelman/

http://www.epicurious.com/recipes/food/views/Master-Dough-with-Starter-51255340

http://www.7x7.com/pizzarecipe

http://www.foodrepublic.com/2014/07/29/meet-11-time-world-pizza-champion

Interestingly, none of the above recipes call for sugar. Sugar is not an essential dough ingredient but it is commonly used for many styles of pizzas, including NY style and American style and even some pizzas, such as those made at Pizzeria Mozza, that are a unique style of its own. I mention Pizzeria Mozza on purpose because Tony critiqued the Mozza pizza in an article at http://www.laweekly.com/squidink/2011/02/17/sfs-pizza-pundit-tony-gemignani-weighs-in-on-las-pies-names-his-favorite-and-considers-the-starfish-calzone (http://www.laweekly.com/squidink/2011/02/17/sfs-pizza-pundit-tony-gemignani-weighs-in-on-las-pies-names-his-favorite-and-considers-the-starfish-calzone). That article mentions malt but, from what I can tell, the form of malt used by Mozza is a form of sweetener, as is noted in the blog article at http://www.foodgal.com/2011/09/pure-pizza-dough-heaven-the-recipe-from-pizzeria-mozza/ (http://www.foodgal.com/2011/09/pure-pizza-dough-heaven-the-recipe-from-pizzeria-mozza/). In that case, the malt is paired in the recipe with honey. If a form of barley malt that is enzymatically active was intended, if properly handled it wouldn't have been paired with honey in the recipe. Properly recited, it would have been a standalone ingredient.

When you have a chance, would you mind looking at some of the other dough recipes in Tony's book to see if they recite sugar? In particular, I'd be interested in a Neapolitan style dough with sugar, which might make sense for use in a home oven but not for a commercial application calling for use of a very high temperature wood fired or similar oven.

BTW, 2% nondiastatic malt would be an acceptable value for a NY style dough. In fact, for years Sbarro used to make a NY style pizza dough with around 2% nondiastatic malt. They eventually switched to sugar.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: dsissitka on November 03, 2014, 05:09:11 PM
Following up on my last post, do you suppose that in his new book Tony G meant to say nondiastatic malt, which is an alternative form of sweetener, rather than diastatic malt, which is a source on enzymes to work on damaged starch?

No, he's pretty clear about that.

Quote
There are two kinds of malt: diastatic and nondiastatic. Diastatic (sometimes labeled low-diastatic) is the one you want for pizza. ... Like most bakers, I prefer diastatic malt ...
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: dsissitka on November 03, 2014, 05:15:00 PM
When you have a chance, would you mind looking at some of the other dough recipes in Tony's book to see if they recite sugar? In particular, I'd be interested in a Neapolitan style dough with sugar, which might make sense for use in a home oven but not for a commercial application calling for use of to a very high temperature wood fired or similar oven.

There's no sugar in any dough recipe in the book.

There's diastatic malt in the Neapolitan recipe but he says he only uses it when he uses a home oven.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on November 03, 2014, 05:18:32 PM
dsissitka,

I was not aware that most bakers prefer diastatic malt or read anything to that effect but thank you anyway. And thank you for checking the other dough recipes in Tony's book.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: jsaras on November 03, 2014, 05:23:32 PM
He mentions using diastatic malt for bake temps below 650 to help with browning.  He also says that it contains active enzymes which aid the breakdown of starches into sugars that feed the yeast.  It also is supposed to extend fermentation times.

He also explicitly states that nondiastatic malt is used in other foods as a sweetener and it is not what he uses in pizza dough. 

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on November 03, 2014, 05:29:49 PM
I think I read it a little differently but I also think it is unclear (at least to me!).

Peter: you specifically asked about Neapolitan.  He is very clear that the malt is not necessary when using a high heat WFO but it should be added for a home oven (under 650, as mentioned).

The ambiguity I thought about with regards to the malt is when he wrote: "a small amount of malt added to your dough will help it brown and will give it a subtle nutty-caramel sweetness in lower temperatures."

He also describes the diastatic malt (in contrast to the non-diastatic) as having the "added benefit" of active enzymes which help break down starches, turning them into sugars.  The nondiastatic malt "doesn't have those enzymes, and it's added to foods ONLY as a sweetener." (CAPS are mine).

So, I think I can read this as:
diastatic = enzymes + sweetener
nondiastatic = sweetener only

- Mitch
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on November 03, 2014, 05:38:46 PM
Jonas,

Thank you also. Does Tony say whether the diastatic malt is in dry or liquid form? I would assume that it is the dry form because liquid diastatic malt is hard to find at the retail level.

And does Tony recommend a particular brand or source of diastatic malt?

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on November 03, 2014, 05:43:41 PM
He does not say - but he cites Central Milling or beer brewing supply stores as sources if that helps.

- Mitch
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on November 03, 2014, 06:29:36 PM
Adding to the discussion:

Tony's recipes call for 2% diastatic malt.  For example, in the Master Dough recipe (the one without starter), there are 9 grams (1 tablespoon, per the recipe) of the malt.  The total flour is 453 grams. 

The King Arthur website, which sells the stuff, recommends that you use between 1/2 to 1 teaspoon per 3 cups of flour.  Per King Arthur, 1 cup of flour (e.g. AP, Bread, Sir Lancelot) is 4.25 ounces.  So, that is 12.75 ounces or 361 grams.

The package I have of KA Malted Barley says it is 2 grams per teaspoon.  Tony's recipe says 9 grams per tablespoon, which would be 3 grams per teaspoon.  OK, so let's say 2-3 grams per teaspoon.

At 1/2 to 1 teaspoon per 3 cups, it would be 1-3 grams per 3 cups which is 1-3 grams per 361 grams:
0.3% to 0.8%, depending on how you measure and how much you want to use.

So, the 2% Tony uses is a lot.........

In surfing around the Fresh Loaf website for discussions of diastatic malt, there are many discussions.  They include admonitions of using too much.  Check out this thread:
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/25855/nondiastatic-versus-diastatic-matled-barley-syrup

One comment in there:
"I just made some loaves with about 0.2% (a tenth of what KAF recommended:-), and found the effects so significant and uncontrollable that I'm now trying going back to that same recipe except not adding any diastatic malt at all.  Even the very small amount I added caused a much larger rise, more than halved my fermentation times, caused my poolish to overrise and collapse, lengthened required baking time by 10-15%, and left a "gummy" residue on my serrated bread slicing knife."
A reply said:
"LOL I feel the same. How little I use, I always end up with dough which is so sticky an unruly :p and very difficult to handle."

So.........
Which one of you goes first in trying the recipes out, including 2% diastatic malt ???? !!!!!!!! ???????   :o

- Mitch
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Donjo911 on November 03, 2014, 06:37:59 PM
Is Tony G a member or participating guest of this site?  I would think that this audience is his target for the book. Since he mentioned PM Fourm in the book.... is there a way to just PM him?  Seems like he would want to clear this matter up -especially if diastatic/nondiastatic its a type-O in his brand new book.
Cheers,
Don
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: dsissitka on November 03, 2014, 06:57:00 PM
Which one of you goes first in trying the recipes out, including 2% diastatic malt ???? !!!!!!!! ???????

At this point I've worked my way through the master class twice and made the master dough with and without starter at least a half dozen times. 2% diastatic malt seems to work well. In fact, the master dough with poolish I used this morning is probably the best dough I've ever made.

Is Tony G a member or participating guest of this site?  I would think that this audience is his target for the book. Since he mentioned PM Fourm in the book.... is there a way to just PM him?

He launched his own forum with the book but he doesn't participate very often:

http://www.thepizzabible.com/
http://www.thepizzabible.com/tonyg
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on November 03, 2014, 06:59:18 PM
Mitch,

I came across the Central Milling (CM) name in the course of reading an article by Peter Reinhart (PR), at http://www.fornobravo.com/pizzaquest/instructionals/59-written-recipes/299-the-pizza-quest-challenge-pizza-dough.html (http://www.fornobravo.com/pizzaquest/instructionals/59-written-recipes/299-the-pizza-quest-challenge-pizza-dough.html), in which PR mentions Central Milling as a possible source of malt. But the malt is nondiastatic malt. I did check the CM website and looked at all of the flours but they are all untreated. But, as a miller, they apparently have malt products on hand for customers who might want malted flours. But I did not see malts listed as products of CM. PR also suggests that one go to beer making supply stores or to a favorite micro-brewery and ask to buy the nondiastatic malt from them.

Most dry diastatic malts are not pure barley malt. As you can see from the Malt Products article on malts at http://www.maltproducts.com/news.whatismalt.html (http://www.maltproducts.com/news.whatismalt.html), dry diastatic malt products include wheat and dextrose also. You will also see the statements ".....by using dry diastatic malt, the only beneficial characteristic available is that of enzymatic activity (not color, not flavor, not crust characteristics)" and "It should be stressed here, however, that dry diastatic malt contributes very little in terms of flavor or color versus use of liquid diastatic malt." These statements would seem to suggest that if one is after better browning, nondiastatic malt or liquid diastatic malt would be the best choices. But if one wants a dry diastatic malt, it will include dextrose and flour. Heating the liquid diastatic malt to get to a dry form would render the enzymes inactive. This is not a problem with nondiastatic malts, in either dry or liquid form, because they are heated to a temperature and for a duration that disable the enzymes.

I might add that the dextrose used in commercial diastatic malts (but also including the diastatic malt sold by King Arthur) is a form of sugar. It is technically a form of glucose. As can be seen at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Relativesweetness.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Relativesweetness.png), glucose has about three-quarters of the sweetness of ordinary table sugar, or sucrose. But glucose, as a simple sugar, apparently is available to participate in the Maillard reactions and provide some crust coloration. What I don't know is how much diastatic malt is required to product that result. Maybe Tony concluded that 2% diastatic malt, as well as the diastatic malt already in the flours he is using, is enough to produce that result without breaking down the gluten matrix and rendering the dough slack and wet and overly extensible.

It will be interesting to see how ordinary people who have Tony's book and try his dough recipes make out with the recipes.

Peter

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: jsaras on November 03, 2014, 07:19:16 PM
Page 16 states that "malt is most commonly made from barley, which has been sprouted and then dried and ground".

So there's no typo or misuderstanding.  Dry diastatic malt, 1.96% added to malted flour.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on November 03, 2014, 07:40:34 PM
At this point I've worked my way through the master class twice and made the master dough with and without starter at least a half dozen times. 2% diastatic malt seems to work well. In fact, the master dough with poolish I used this morning is probably the best dough I've ever made.

 Interesting!  Glad we had a taker already.  Did you make a NY style or ?  I am inclined to give it a try.  After all, I bought the book, so I am invested now.  :P

Seriously, though, can you describe what you liked or what made it different?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on November 03, 2014, 07:47:01 PM
Page 16 states that "malt is most commonly made from barley, which has been sprouted and then dried and ground".

So there's no typo or misuderstanding.  Dry diastatic malt, 1.96% added to malted flour.
Jonas,

At I understand it, both diastatic and nondiastatic malt start out in life from barley that has been sprouted and then dried and ground. It is what happens after that in the way of processing that produces the two forms of malt, in both wet and dry forms. However, it sounds like Tony means diastatic malt.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: dsissitka on November 03, 2014, 09:09:14 PM
Did you make a NY style or ?

I'm not sure what to call it. Basically a slightly thinner version of the pizza you make in the master class. Somewhere between American and New York style.

Seriously, though, can you describe what you liked or what made it different?

There were two things that really stood out:

 - It was unusually smooth. Usually when I stretch my dough it loses the smooth feeling that balling gives. That didn't happen this time.
 - The bubbles in the dough were much smaller and much more uniform.

The elasticity/extensibility balance could've been better. I think three minutes of hand kneading might be a little low. How's it been working out for you?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: norma427 on November 03, 2014, 09:19:50 PM
I asked Tony about the malt on facebook.  This is what Tony replied.  As for Malt the one I recommend is Low Diastatic Malt from Central Milling. The best around. With it being Diastatic it will help the breakdown of complex sugars as well as assisting in browning, a vehicle for yeast and simple sugar.  I asked Tony if anyone can purchase the Low Diastatic Malt and this is what he replied.  Yes just call. Several have.  I asked if the diastatic malt is wet or dry and Tony said it is dry.

Norma
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on November 03, 2014, 09:24:25 PM
Norma,

Good job.

Here is another possible source of low diastatic malt: http://nybakers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=60

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: norma427 on November 03, 2014, 09:36:45 PM
Norma,

Here is another possible source of low diastatic malt: http://nybakers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=60

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the additional link.  Tony asked me if I would post the same question at http://www.thepizzabible.com/  I signed up with my name, email address and a password.  The website won't let me sign in now.

Norma

Edited:

Just to explain if anyone else want to post on the Pizza Bible's website.

Tony had the webmaster email me of why I might not be able to log in to the Pizza Bible website.  The webmaster told me it looked like my account was created, but was not confirmed.  I needed to confirm through the link in a confirmation email that I was registered.  The confirmation email was in my email spam folder.  Usually confirmation emails don't go into my spam folder, but this time it did.

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Wazza McG on November 07, 2014, 05:15:20 PM
I purchase my diastatic malt from Basic Ingredients here in Australia.

They have 2 types - Diastatic Pure and Diastatic Malt 10

Diastatic Malt 10 is 1 part Diastatic Malt and 9 parts Bread Flour.

I believe they sell it like this as Diastatic Malt 10 is easier to measure EG. 3 tsp per Kg of flour.

https://basicingredients.com.au/index.php/diastatic-malt10-200-g.html?SID=c00af089d01fd4c08b97eb84328de30b

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on November 07, 2014, 09:14:20 PM
Can anyone tell me if Tony describes the diastatic malt in the book as a low diastatic malt, or otherwise provides a Lintner number?

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: dsissitka on November 07, 2014, 09:18:43 PM
Can anyone tell me if Tony describes the diastatic malt in the book as a low diastatic malt, or otherwise provides a Lintner number?

Peter

No mention of degrees Lintner. He says:

"There are two kinds of malt: diastatic and nondiastatic. Diastatic (sometimes labeled low-diastatic)..."
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on November 08, 2014, 09:51:09 AM
No mention of degrees Lintner. He says:

"There are two kinds of malt: diastatic and nondiastatic. Diastatic (sometimes labeled low-diastatic)..."
As Norma told us recently at Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34845.msg347123.html#msg347123 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34845.msg347123.html#msg347123), Tony recommends that a low diastatic malt be used for his dough recipes. He specifically mentioned Central Milling as a source of that product.

I was curious to know more about low diastatic malts and other possible sources, so yesterday I spent a fair amount of time researching low diastatic malts. Previously, I had cited this website where a low diastatic malt is offered at retail: http://nybakers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=60 (http://nybakers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=60). That product is actually a Fleischmann's malt product. Fleischmann's is owned by AB Mauri. The Fleischmann's low diastatic malt is also available to professionals at http://www.foodservicedirect.com/product.cfm/p/155426/Fleischmanns-Yeast-AB-Mauri-Dry-Malt.htm (http://www.foodservicedirect.com/product.cfm/p/155426/Fleischmanns-Yeast-AB-Mauri-Dry-Malt.htm). Other sources of low diastatic malts for professionals are these:

http://www.maltproducts.com/products.malt.html (http://www.maltproducts.com/products.malt.html)

http://www.briess.com/food/Products/mimbf.php (http://www.briess.com/food/Products/mimbf.php)

http://www.premiermalt.com/malt.products.html (http://www.premiermalt.com/malt.products.html)

http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-drymalt-product-20 (http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-drymalt-product-20) (see, also http://www.lsaf.com/sites/default/files/Product%20Sheet.pdf (http://www.lsaf.com/sites/default/files/Product%20Sheet.pdf) and http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/sites/default/files/products_files/Tech%20Sheet%20-%20%20RS%20Diastatic%20Malt%2C24000%2C24100%20Rev%202%2C%2009-02-09.pdf (http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/sites/default/files/products_files/Tech%20Sheet%20-%20%20RS%20Diastatic%20Malt%2C24000%2C24100%20Rev%202%2C%2009-02-09.pdf))

What I was especially looking for at the above websites was Lintner numbers. Low diastatic malts typically have low Lintner (degrees Lintner) numbers, signifying low enzyme activity. The benefit of low Lintner malt products is that they can be used at considerably higher levels than high diastatic malts. For example, the Red Star low diastatic (they call it low activity) malt (referenced above) can be used at levels of from 0.5-5%. The Briess website mentions using up to 3%. I do not know what dictates a specific value to use but I would imagine that the cited ranges cover the addition of the malt to flours that have no malt whatsoever to flours that have small amounts of malt from the millers. That range might also cover situations where the malt replaces sugar in a given formulation. Apparently Tony concluded that 2% low diastatic malt is the best value for his purposes. The good news is that the actual amount of diastatic malt that Tony recommends is not likely to be excessive from an enzyme standpoint.

By way of further background, in general, most commercial dry diastatic malts typically include a combination of dextrose, flour and barley malt. Depending on the order of these ingredients, one can end up with a low diastatic malt or a high diastatic malt, and the sequence specifies the degree Lintner. In reviewing the abovereferenced websites, I believe that a degree Lintner value of about 20L is perhaps the value that members should look for. Some of the abovementioned websites list Lintner values, but their malt products are not available at retail. On the retail side, King Arthur sells a diastatic malt, with the specs at https://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1298304180122.pdf , and while the ingredients for the malt are given, there is no recitation of the degree Lintner number. The amount of their product to use is given, and based on their recommended usage levels, I estimate that the percentage figure is about 0.25-0.5%. That range would suggest a high diastatic malt but it may be that KA is conservative in its use instructions.

The bottom line is that members should perhaps look for low diastatic malts with low degree Lintner numbers. In my research, I saw quite a few brewing websites that also sell malt products, including from some of the commercial sources referenced above. I believe the key thing is to look for low degree Lintner numbers or language signifying that the product is a low diastatic malt. Hopefully, readers of Tony's book don't take his description of the diastatic malt to mean just any diastatic malt.

Peter

EDIT (11/15/16): For the Wayback Machine version of the above inoperative link to the Red Star 20L product, see http://web.archive.org/web/20160330012616/http://lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-drymalt-product-20; note, also, that the general diastatic pdf document cited above appears to be no longer available online or at the current Lesaffre/Red Star website, so one may want to contact the company for specific information.

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: dsissitka on November 08, 2014, 03:51:58 PM
I wonder how Central Milling's measures. Did you ask? If not, I think I will when I order.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on November 08, 2014, 04:08:05 PM
I wonder how Central Milling's measures. Did you ask? If not, I think I will when I order.
I don't believe Norma asked Tony, and I didn't get that far. I had previously looked at the Central Milling website but did not see malt listed as one of their products. However, I did see a post at http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/177920#comment-177920 (http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/177920#comment-177920) where the poster said that Central Milling added diastatic malt to their organic flours.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on November 08, 2014, 04:24:25 PM
I wonder how Central Milling's measures. Did you ask? If not, I think I will when I order.

I'm not sure Central Milling is selling it at the retail level. No such product on their list.

http://centralmilling.com/collections/all

And at Giustos.com they only have it listed in the Professional section.

http://giustos.com/professional/all-natural-barley-malt-46.html

But you might want to call them up and ask for Nicky Giusto. He might be able to hook you up with a 5lb bag. He helped me on several occasions regarding flours.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on November 08, 2014, 04:25:35 PM
I don't believe Norma asked Tony, and I didn't get that far. I had previously looked at the Central Milling website but did not see malt listed as one of their products. However, I did see a post at http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/177920#comment-177920 (http://www.thefreshloaf.com/comment/177920#comment-177920) where the poster said that Central Milling added diastatic malt to their organic flours.

Peter

Peter,

She did.

http://www.thepizzabible.com/posts/what-kind-of-malt
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: dsissitka on November 08, 2014, 04:29:58 PM
I'm not sure central Milling is selling it at the retail level. No such product on their list.

http://centralmilling.com/collections/all

It looks like they might:

I asked Tony about the malt on facebook.  This is what Tony replied.  As for Malt the one I recommend is Low Diastatic Malt from Central Milling. The best around. With it being Diastatic it will help the breakdown of complex sugars as well as assisting in browning, a vehicle for yeast and simple sugar.  I asked Tony if anyone can purchase the Low Diastatic Malt and this is what he replied.  Yes just call. Several have.  I asked if the diastatic malt is wet or dry and Tony said it is dry.

Norma

I'm going to give them a call.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on November 08, 2014, 04:36:05 PM
Mike,

I was aware that Norma asked Tony about the diastatic malt and got his answer but I believe that dsissitka was referring to the Lintner number for the Central Milling diastatic malt. Tony indicated that Central Milling would be a source of the diastatic malt. See Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34845.msg347123.html#msg347123 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34845.msg347123.html#msg347123).

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on November 08, 2014, 04:40:16 PM
Mike,

I was aware that Norma asked Tony about the diastatic malt and got his answer but I believe that dsissitka was referring to the Lindner number for the Central Milling diastatic malt. Tony indicated that Central Milling would be a source of the diastatic malt. See Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34845.msg347123.html#msg347123 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34845.msg347123.html#msg347123).

Peter

Ahh, didn't see that one.   :-[
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on November 08, 2014, 04:43:22 PM
It looks like they might:

I'm going to give them a call.

Sweet. keep us posted.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on November 08, 2014, 05:05:08 PM
In the past, I have mentioned Barry Farm Foods as a source of diastatic malt, at http://www.barryfarm.com/nutri_info/baking%20supplies/diastaticmaltpowder.htm (http://www.barryfarm.com/nutri_info/baking%20supplies/diastaticmaltpowder.htm). However, that is most likely a high diastatic malt. The way to tell is to look at the ingredients list. Note that the malted barley flour is first in the list of ingredients. To be a low diastatic malt, the malted barley flour will usually be last in the list. To see similar examples, look at the 60L (high) and 20L (low) ingredients lists for the Red Star malts at http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/sites/default/files/products_files/Tech%20Sheet%20-%20%20RS%20Diastatic%20Malt%2C24000%2C24100%20Rev%202%2C%2009-02-09.pdf (http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/sites/default/files/products_files/Tech%20Sheet%20-%20%20RS%20Diastatic%20Malt%2C24000%2C24100%20Rev%202%2C%2009-02-09.pdf). Further evidence of the high diastatic malt for the Barry Farm diastatic malt is this statement at the Barry Farm website: Use approximately 1 tsp. per loaf. The use of more diastatic malt than this can result in slack, sticky dough, and will not improve yeast action.

Peter

EDIT (11/15/16): Since the above diastatic pdf document cited above is apparently no longer available online or at the current Lesaffre/Red Star website, see the following Wayback Machine versions of the Red Star 20L and 60L diastatic malt products: http://web.archive.org/web/20160330012616/http://lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-drymalt-product-20 and
http://web.archive.org/web/20141207042746/http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-dry-malt-product-60
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on November 08, 2014, 05:19:55 PM
I may call them tomorrow, too.  It sounds like their "switchboard" is going to be very busy.   :P
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on November 08, 2014, 07:16:29 PM
I may call them tomorrow, too.  It sounds like their "switchboard" is going to be very busy.   :P

Tomorrow is Sunday, bro.

Or do you guys have a different timezone in Oakland than we have here in Marin?  ;D
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 08, 2014, 07:21:59 PM
To the Bat Phone Robin...... ;D
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mkevenson on November 08, 2014, 08:55:36 PM
I was going to drive to Giusto's today. Dang they are only open when I work. BooHiss.
Mark
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on November 08, 2014, 09:12:41 PM
Tomorrow is Sunday, bro.

Or do you guys have a different timezone in Oakland than we have here in Marin?  ;D

Give this is the Bay Area, I started thinking about all the potential replies.  8).  But,   :-[
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on November 08, 2014, 10:03:48 PM
In the past, I have mentioned Barry Farm Foods as a source of diastatic malt, at http://www.barryfarm.com/nutri_info/baking%20supplies/diastaticmaltpowder.htm (http://www.barryfarm.com/nutri_info/baking%20supplies/diastaticmaltpowder.htm). However, that is a high diastatic malt. The way to tell is to look at the ingredients list. Note that the malted barley flour is first in the list of ingredients. To be a low diastatic malt, the malted barley flour would be last in the list. To see similar examples, look at the 60L (high) and 20L (low) ingredients lists for the Red Star malts at http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/sites/default/files/products_files/Tech%20Sheet%20-%20%20RS%20Diastatic%20Malt%2C24000%2C24100%20Rev%202%2C%2009-02-09.pdf (http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/sites/default/files/products_files/Tech%20Sheet%20-%20%20RS%20Diastatic%20Malt%2C24000%2C24100%20Rev%202%2C%2009-02-09.pdf).

Peter

Peter:
I am sure you recall my postings about the diastatic malt powder that I have in the house from King Arthur - I was concerned about the expiration date.   I just checked the package.  The order of ingredients is dextrose, wheat flour and malted barley flour is last.

Would you conclude it is "low diastatic malt"   ?

- Mitch
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on November 09, 2014, 08:51:02 AM
Peter:
I am sure you recall my postings about the diastatic malt powder that I have in the house from King Arthur - I was concerned about the expiration date.   I just checked the package.  The order of ingredients is dextrose, wheat flour and malted barley flour is last.

Would you conclude it is "low diastatic malt"   ?

- Mitch
Mitch,

I was waiting for someone to ask that question.

On the face of it, yes, I would say that the King Arthur (KA) diastatic malt is a low diastatic malt. The reason why I didn't say that earlier is because the recommended usage of their malt, 1/2 to one teaspoon per three cups of flour, translates into a percent of around 0.25-0.50%. That is an amount that is more indicative of a high diastatic malt where the usual concern is overusage of the malt in the hands of end users. However, as I noted in an earlier post, it is possible that KA is being conservative in its usage recommendation because it does not know how its users, who are primarily home bakers, will use their product. For example, they don't know the types of flours or dough or bake formulations its users have in mind to supplement with diastatic malt, whether sugars or other sweeteners are included in the formulations, bake protocols, etc.

The best test of the KA diastatic malt for purposes of this thread is for someone to try the KA diastatic malt at 2% with one of the designated flours and dough formulations and see what happens.

I mentioned earlier that Red Star has a usage recommendation for its low activity diastatic malt of 0.5-5%, and that the Briess website has a usage recommendation of up to 3%. However, if you look at the Red Star 60L product, which they call a high activity diastatic malt, at http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-dry-malt-product-60 (http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-dry-malt-product-60), you will see that the recommended usage is 0.5-5%. That would seem a wide range but there are diastatic malts that are even higher than 60L, and since Red Star sells its diastatic malts in 50-pound bags, their customers, who are presumably professionals, are presumed to know what they are doing. You can't say always that for ordinary home bakers. BTW, pure malted barley flour is about L180-220 (see http://www.maltproducts.com/products.malt.html (http://see http://www.maltproducts.com/products.malt.html)). That helps put the other Lintner numbers in perspective.

Peter

EDIT (11/15/16): For the Wayback Machine version of the above inoperative link for the Red Star 60L product, see http://web.archive.org/web/20141207042746/http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-dry-malt-product-60

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: jsaras on November 09, 2014, 09:27:54 AM
Can't you just substitute sugar at the same amount in the recipe and get a similar result? 
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on November 09, 2014, 09:37:17 AM
Mitch,

I was waiting for someone to ask that question.

On the face of it, yes, I would say that the King Arthur (KA) diastatic malt is a low diastatic malt. The reason why I didn't say that earlier is because the recommended usage of their malt, 1/2 to one teaspoon per three cups of flour, translates into a percent of around 0.25-0.50%. That is an amount that is more indicative of a high diastatic malt where the usual concern is overusage of the malt in the hands of end users. However, as I noted in an earlier post, it is possible that KA is being conservative in its usage recommendation because it does not know how its users, who are primarily home bakers, will use their product. For example, they don't know the types of flours or dough or bake formulations its users have in mind to supplement with diastatic malt, whether sugars or other sweeteners are included in the formulations, bake protocols, etc.

The best test of the KA diastatic malt for purposes of this thread is for someone to try the KA diastatic malt at 2% with one of the designated flours and dough formulations and see what happens.

I mentioned earlier that Red Star has a usage recommendation for its low activity diastatic malt of 0.5-5%, and that the Briess website has a usage recommendation of up to 3%. However, if you look at the Red Star 60L product, which they call a high activity diastatic malt, at http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-dry-malt-product-60 (http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-dry-malt-product-60), you will see that the recommended usage is 0.5-5%. That would seem a wide range but there are diastatic malts that are even higher than 60L, and since Red Star sells its diastatic malts in 50-pound bags, their customers, who are presumably professionals, are presumed to know what they are doing. You can't say always that for ordinary home bakers. BTW, pure malted barley flour is about L180-220 (see http://www.maltproducts.com/products.malt.html (http://see http://www.maltproducts.com/products.malt.html)). That helps put the other Lintner numbers in perspective.

Peter

Hi Peter:

I am happy to serve by asking you the question you were waiting for!

I just had an internet "chat" with a baker consultant at King Arthur.  They were able to answer my question about the Lintner value immediately.  Looks like it is not "low" diastatic malt.  Here is the chat:

"
Laurie F: Hi there! Thank you for chatting with us here at King Arthur Flour. How can I help you?
You: Hi there.  I have a technical question about the diastatic malt powder
You: apparently, there are different levels of "strength" for diastatic malt powder, as measured by the "Lintner" scale
You: Do you know this is "low" diastatic malt powder or "high" diastatic malt powder
You: ?
Laurie F: Just a moment.
You: thanks a lot
Laurie F: Ours has 100 Lintner rating, so it is on the stronger side.
You: thank you very much.  I greatly appreciate it.
"

It appears to me, assuming I understood the web links you provided, that a "low diastatic malt" is associated with a Lintner number of 20. 

So, at the risk of being very naive, what about using 1/5 of the amount Tony recommends?

- Mitch


- Mitch
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: jvp123 on November 09, 2014, 09:48:37 AM
Great info thanks Mitch!
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on November 09, 2014, 10:14:16 AM
Hi Peter:

I am happy to serve by asking you the question you were waiting for!

I just had an internet "chat" with a baker consultant at King Arthur.  They were able to answer my question about the Lintner value immediately.  Looks like it is not "low" diastatic malt.  Here is the chat:

"
Laurie F: Hi there! Thank you for chatting with us here at King Arthur Flour. How can I help you?
You: Hi there.  I have a technical question about the diastatic malt powder
You: apparently, there are different levels of "strength" for diastatic malt powder, as measured by the "Lintner" scale
You: Do you know this is "low" diastatic malt powder or "high" diastatic malt powder
You: ?
Laurie F: Just a moment.
You: thanks a lot
Laurie F: Ours has 100 Lintner rating, so it is on the stronger side.
You: thank you very much.  I greatly appreciate it.
"

It appears to me, assuming I understood the web links you provided, that a "low diastatic malt" is associated with a Lintner number of 20. 

So, at the risk of being very naive, what about using 1/5 of the amount Tony recommends?

- Mitch


- Mitch

Excellent info, Mitch!

Does anyone know, by any chance, what the numbers of the Giusto's/Central Milling DM are? Might have to call them tomorrow and find out.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on November 09, 2014, 11:04:20 AM
Hi Peter:

I am happy to serve by asking you the question you were waiting for!

I just had an internet "chat" with a baker consultant at King Arthur.  They were able to answer my question about the Lintner value immediately.  Looks like it is not "low" diastatic malt.  Here is the chat:

"
Laurie F: Hi there! Thank you for chatting with us here at King Arthur Flour. How can I help you?
You: Hi there.  I have a technical question about the diastatic malt powder
You: apparently, there are different levels of "strength" for diastatic malt powder, as measured by the "Lintner" scale
You: Do you know this is "low" diastatic malt powder or "high" diastatic malt powder
You: ?
Laurie F: Just a moment.
You: thanks a lot
Laurie F: Ours has 100 Lintner rating, so it is on the stronger side.
You: thank you very much.  I greatly appreciate it.
"

It appears to me, assuming I understood the web links you provided, that a "low diastatic malt" is associated with a Lintner number of 20. 

So, at the risk of being very naive, what about using 1/5 of the amount Tony recommends?

- Mitch


- Mitch
Mitch,

Good work. Now you can see why I was originally hesitant about commenting on the KA diastatic malt. I was looking at the ingredients list at https://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1298304180122.pdf (https://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1298304180122.pdf) where the malted barley flour is last in the list. I assume that the KA pdf document is the current one since I found it at the KA website. If so, this tells us to look behind the ingredients list to find the Lintner value if it is not recited anywhere, as it is for most malt producers.

The only way to know if using one-fifth the amount of diastatic that Tony calls for is to try it out.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: tinroofrusted on November 09, 2014, 12:30:18 PM
Diastatic malt is sold at Surfas in Los Angeles and Orange County under the "Culinary District" brand which I believe is the house brand of Surfas. I purchased an 11 oz package; I can't recall what it cost. 

I think that Tony is using the diastatic malt as a way to promote faster browning in home ovens. 
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mkevenson on November 09, 2014, 12:42:47 PM
Just received an Email from a rep at Pendleton regarding the addition of malt to their unbleached Power Flour. He states that malt is NOT added. FWIW.

Mark
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: jvp123 on November 09, 2014, 04:47:48 PM
Just received an Email from a rep at Pendleton regarding the addition of malt to their unbleached Power Flour. He states that malt is NOT added. FWIW.

Mark

Thanks Mark.  I use that flour so its good to know!

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on November 09, 2014, 05:16:33 PM
Just received an Email from a rep at Pendleton regarding the addition of malt to their unbleached Power Flour. He states that malt is NOT added. FWIW.

Mark

Mark

I have a feeling you may have asked the wrong question or we should all be clear/precise on context.    I am sure there is not any diastatic malt powder added.  I do not think anyone does that in any flour.  That is definitely a recipe addition that is made by some bakers in some circumstances.

But, I bet you that one of the ingredients is malted barley flour.  The vast majority of American flours have that.  Without it, you would have trouble with browning, etc.

Which, if either, do you think was asked and answered?

Thanks,
Mitch

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: dsissitka on November 09, 2014, 05:50:25 PM
I am sure there is not any diastatic malt powder added.  I do not think anyone does that in any flour.

...

But, I bet you that one of the ingredients is malted barley flour.

Isn't malted barley flour just diastatic malt powder without dextrose and flour to dilute it?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on November 09, 2014, 06:24:44 PM
Isn't malted barley flour just diastatic malt powder without dextrose and flour to dilute it?
dsissitka,

That is my understanding. See Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11549.msg106388/topicseen.html#msg106388 .

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on November 09, 2014, 06:40:21 PM
As Peter said, I think the answer is "yes" and it may be a question of concentration.  In my web surfing, the malted barley is blended in with the wheat flour at the mill.  It seems that the concentration is around 1/10 of a %. 

The malt powder additive boosts that % by multiples.  Perhaps 2 to 3 times in "normal baking of bread" when a baker chooses to add it.

So, Mark's remark was about malt being "added to the flour."  But, the barley flour is already in the flour from the mill.

So, if from the factory was "yes", it was 1/10 of 1% and Tony's addition is multiples of that.
But, the same action may result if the answer is "no" since the concentrations are so different (mill blending vs. bakery addition) and the boost needed to conform to Tony's recipe is not hugely different.

Alternatively, they may be malting the flour without barley, using "enzymes produced by fungal and bacterial processes." (I am not being smart here, I am just quoting Peter.  Look here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,31960.msg317156.html#msg317156 )

This is brand new territory for me so I can confidently tell you I am on shaky ground.  But, I think that is what is happening here and the question/answer could trick us if we are not careful.  I believe we will find, barley or no barley, that Pendleton Power Flour is already malted but to follow Tony's recipe we need to add low diastatic malt powder.

Peter: Does any of this sound right?  Or, is the Pendleton Power Flour really simply unmalted?

- Mitch
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on November 09, 2014, 06:48:34 PM
i found an easy to read label on Amazon.  It says: "Enzyme Added For Improved Baking".  I believe, therefore, it is malted.  Maybe with barley flour, maybe with something else.

- Mitch
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on November 09, 2014, 06:51:16 PM
Mark

I have a feeling you may have asked the wrong question or we should all be clear/precise on context.    I am sure there is not any diastatic malt powder added.  I do not think anyone does that in any flour.  That is definitely a recipe addition that is made by some bakers in some circumstances.

But, I bet you that one of the ingredients is malted barley flour.  The vast majority of American flours have that.  Without it, you would have trouble with browning, etc.

Which, if either, do you think was asked and answered?

Thanks,
Mitch
Mitch,

Mark might be able to provide further information about his exchange with Pendleton, but I believe he may be correct. As I understand it, the Power flour is not malted with barley malt flour. Invariably, at least in my experience, when malted barley flour is added to a given flour, it is recited as such in ingredients lists. But the ingredients list for that flour, as I saw it by enlarging a photo of a bag of the Power flour, lists an enzyme. As you noted, that enzyme might be a fungal or bacterial version of the amylase enzyme that works on damaged starch. You can read more on this subject at http://www.classofoods.com/page1_7.html .

A good follow-up question by Mark might be to ask Pendleton whether the enzyme used in the Power flour is a fungal or bacterial amylase enzyme. There are other enzymes that can be used in flours, so the follow-up question might enlighten us further.

Peter

EDIT (8/28/20): For a Wayback Machine version of the now inoperative classofoods.com link, see https://web.archive.org/web/20101103015343/http://www.classofoods.com/page1_7.html


Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mkevenson on November 09, 2014, 08:42:22 PM
This is a copy of what I received:

"Mark,

Power unbleached does not contain Malt.  Ingredients include enrichment vitamins, fungal amylase enzyme, and ascorbic acid (vitamin C).

Please let me know if you need any additional information.

Reuben McLean

Sent from my iPhone"

Mark
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on November 09, 2014, 08:50:05 PM
This is a copy of what I received:

"Mark,

Power unbleached does not contain Malt.  Ingredients include enrichment vitamins, fungal amylase enzyme, and ascorbic acid (vitamin C).

Please let me know if you need any additional information.

Reuben McLean



Sent from my iPhone"

Mark

Mark,

I just saw this. I have been using Power for awhile and had a hunch that it wasn't malted. I'm sure it would have said so on the bag somewhere.

But thanks for the confirmation and posting the info you got from Mr. McLean.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on November 09, 2014, 09:01:42 PM
Mike,

I think you understand this but to clarify a bit, malted barley flour and fungal amylase both have the enzyme (alpha amylase) that works on damaged starch. So, adding diastatic malt powder to a flour that contains either form of amylase increases the alpha amylase content of the flour.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on November 09, 2014, 09:12:05 PM
Peter:

Although it is not "malted" in the sense that there was an addition of malted barley, the equivalent action was taken via the enzyme and therefore the behavior of the flour is the same as the behavior of malted flour.  The amylase has been added and that is the important thing, as opposed to the vehicle.

Correct?

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on November 09, 2014, 09:22:13 PM
Mike,

I think you understand this but to clarify a bit, malted barley flour and fungal amylase both have the enzyme (alpha amylase) that works on damaged starch. So, adding diastatic malt powder to a flour that contains either form of amylase increases the alpha amylase content of the flour.

Peter

Peter,

Makes sense.

And yes, I do understand. I'm just not very big on chemistry, it was never my favorite subject in High school  :)
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on November 10, 2014, 09:03:06 AM
Peter:

Although it is not "malted" in the sense that there was an addition of malted barley, the equivalent action was taken via the enzyme and therefore the behavior of the flour is the same as the behavior of malted flour.  The amylase has been added and that is the important thing, as opposed to the vehicle.

Correct?
Mitch,

As I understand it, the amylases are the same for all three forms (cereal, fungal and bacterial). However as the article I cited at http://www.classofoods.com/page1_7.html (http://www.classofoods.com/page1_7.html) points out, there are attributes and characteristics of the three forms of amylase that may dictate which one to use for particular applications. An an example of a difference, and as pointed out by the article, cereal amylase is denatured at lower temperatures than fungal or bacterial amylase. By contrast, bacterial amylase is more thermally stable. It is also useful for maintaining softness in finished baked products but it can continue to work on baked goods and make them soft and gummy.

Peter

EDIT (8/28/20): For a Wayback Machine version of the now inoperative classofoods.com link, see https://web.archive.org/web/20101103015343/http://www.classofoods.com/page1_7.html
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on November 10, 2014, 10:42:58 AM
This morning I found this interesting and informative article on enzymes used in baking:

http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/eng/PDFs/LBU%20PDF%20FILES/1_14ENZY.PDF (http://www.lallemand.com/BakerYeastNA/eng/PDFs/LBU%20PDF%20FILES/1_14ENZY.PDF)

The article also has a section on the FDA labeling requirements. I had assumed that they existed because of the way I have seen enzymes listed in ingredients lists.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mkevenson on November 10, 2014, 11:57:46 AM
Excellent info, Mitch!

Does anyone know, by any chance, what the numbers of the Giusto's/Central Milling DM are? Might have to call them tomorrow and find out.

Keith Giusto Bakery Supply
www.centralmilling.com/


 755 Southpoint Blvd #101, Petaluma, CA 94954

(707) 778-1073
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on November 10, 2014, 02:05:19 PM
Keith Giusto Bakery Supply
www.centralmilling.com/


 755 Southpoint Blvd #101, Petaluma, CA 94954

(707) 778-1073

Mark,

I got Nicky's e-mail. Will shoot him one to find out today.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Steve on November 10, 2014, 02:40:23 PM
There are a couple dry malt powders available on amazon at reasonable prices:

http://www.amazon.com/Hoosier-Hill-Farm-Fashioned-Diastatic/dp/B008T9LX3C/?tag=pizzamaking-20

http://www.amazon.com/Diastatic-Malt-Powder-1-lb/dp/B0001AVRRE/?tag=pizzamaking-20
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on November 10, 2014, 03:02:24 PM
There are a couple dry malt powders available on amazon at reasonable prices:

http://www.amazon.com/Hoosier-Hill-Farm-Fashioned-Diastatic/dp/B008T9LX3C/?tag=pizzamaking-20

http://www.amazon.com/Diastatic-Malt-Powder-1-lb/dp/B0001AVRRE/?tag=pizzamaking-20
Steve,

Tony G recommends that a low diastatic malt be used. From the ingredients list and usage recommendations, I am pretty certain that the Barry Farm diastatic malt is a high diastatic malt. And from the ingredients list for the Hoosier Farm diastatic malt, I suspect it is also a high diastatic malt. We would need the degree Lintner numbers to be sure. However, in the case of the Hoosier Farm diastatic malt, if you look at the description of the product, it looks like it was taken directly from the Red Star diastatic malt description given at http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-dry-malt-product-60 (http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-dry-malt-product-60). Red Star calls that product (60L) a high activity diastatic malt. Its low activity diastatic malt has a 20 degree Lintner (20L) value.

Tony suggested that users check out Central Milling to get a low diastatic malt. Some of our members are now in the process of running down that possibility.

Peter

EDIT (11/15/16): For the Wayback Machine version of the above inoperative link for the Red Star 20L product, see http://web.archive.org/web/20160330012616/http://lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-drymalt-product-20

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: dsissitka on November 10, 2014, 04:21:47 PM
I just called Central Milling. If you'd like to order malt from them here is the number you have to call:

1 (866) 979-2253

You can purchase a 5 lb bag for just shy of $10 plus the cost of shipping.

I have to call back in a half hour to get the degrees Lintner.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: dsissitka on November 10, 2014, 04:54:00 PM
I have to call back in a half hour to get the degrees Lintner.

I called but Eliot, the guy who might be able to tell us, isn't back yet. I'll try again later.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: dsissitka on November 10, 2014, 06:35:16 PM
Success! Central Milling's low diastatic malt powder is made by AB Mauri and measures 17 to 23 degrees Lintner.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: dsissitka on November 10, 2014, 06:49:38 PM
Josh, the guy I spoke with at AB Mauri, is a really good dude.

Here's the spec sheet for the malt:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/431c70sku92j9ml/2614%20Dry%20Malt%20Low%20Diastatic%20BOOKLET.pdf?dl=0

That URL will work for a month or so.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on November 10, 2014, 06:57:17 PM
FWIW, the same stuff is available from NY Bakers (earlier discussed by Peter) and it was $5.95.
http://nybakers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=60
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on November 10, 2014, 07:06:39 PM
FWIW, the same stuff is available from NY Bakers (earlier discussed by Peter) and it was $5.95.
http://nybakers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=60
Mitch,

At NY Bakers, the stated price is for one pound of the AB Mauri low diastatic malt. From Central Milling, the $10 price is for five pounds. Five pounds of diastatic malt will almost last one's lifetime.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: norma427 on November 10, 2014, 07:11:10 PM
I purchased 5 lbs. of low diastatic malt from Central Milling about an hour ago.  Total cost with shipping was $20.46.  Now to find some Power Flour.

Norma
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on November 10, 2014, 07:12:29 PM
Success! Central Milling's low diastatic malt powder is made by AB Mauri and measures 17 to 23 degrees Lintner.
dsissitka,

Thank you for getting that information. For now, it looks like the best sources of the low diastatic malt are Central Milling, NY Bakers, and, for high-volume professionals, Red Star (for its 20L low activity diastatic malt). All the other suspects seem to be high diastatic malts. I wonder how many people who don't know the difference will use the high diastatic malt at 2% and end up with dough problems.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on November 10, 2014, 07:12:56 PM
Got it, thanks.

Given that 5 pounds is way more than you could ever need, then I would still think the 1 pound purchase may be better, since the stuff goes south at some point.  The stated shelf life in the pdf is 6 months.

- Mitch
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on November 10, 2014, 07:28:19 PM
I purchased 5 lbs. of low diastatic malt from Central Milling about an hour ago.  Total cost with shipping was $20.46.  Now to find some Power Flour.

Norma

How did you do it? I tried and saw no link to add something to a shopping cart.  ???
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: dsissitka on November 10, 2014, 07:34:08 PM
How did you do it? I tried and saw no link to add something to a shopping cart.  ???

You have to call 1 (866) 979-2253.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: norma427 on November 10, 2014, 07:34:41 PM
How did you do it? I tried and saw no link to add something to a shopping cart.  ???

Mike,

I called Central Milling at the phone number dissitka provided at Reply 169  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,30759.msg348526.html#msg348526

Norma
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on November 11, 2014, 08:40:28 PM
You have to call 1 (866) 979-2253.

Got it.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on November 14, 2014, 12:22:31 PM
Mitch,

Good work. Now you can see why I was originally hesitant about commenting on the KA diastatic malt. I was looking at the ingredients list at http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1415124248153.pdf (http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1415124248153.pdf) where the malted barley flour is last in the list. I assume that the KA pdf document is the current one since I found it at the KA website. If so, this tells us to look behind the ingredients list to find the Lintner value if it is not recited anywhere, as it is for most malt producers.

The only way to know if using one-fifth the amount of diastatic that Tony calls for is to try it out.

Peter

Peter and All:

I have been pondering and researching the concept of low diastatic malt vs high diastatic malt with the Lintner degrees, etc.

Specifically, I have been unconvinced that one must buy "low diastatic malt" and use 2% in Tony's recipes.  Instead, I have been thinking that it may only be a matter of using less of the diastatic malt when the Lintner degrees are higher.

For example, referring to the above quote, the diastatic malt powder from King Arthur is rated at 100 Lintner degrees.  The Central Milling diastatic malt, a source that Tony G documents,  is rated at 20 Lintner and Tony G's recipes usually call for 2% of Total Flour.

My theory has been that you can use the King Arthur diastatic malt (or any other with a higher Lintner number) but that you should use less.  In this case 1/5 of the amount - so about 0.4% of Total Flour.

In "Googling" around, I came across these three examples that support this idea:
http://blog.eckraus.com/blog/home-brewing-beer-2/what-is-diastatic-power-definition-chart
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/porter-50-brown-malt-218682/index2.html
http://books.google.com/books?id=x7c2AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA380&lpg=PA380&dq=20+lintner+degrees+diastatic+malt+bread&source=bl&ots=cfFLq6T8Jq&sig=elOz2h7MT9UIKGq1xd2-VJfiAfo&hl=en&sa=X&ei=W2djVI_VA4j1iQLAkIDoCg&ved=0CEUQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=20%20lintner%20degrees%20diastatic%20malt%20bread&f=false

I then decided to "go to the professional bakers" and inquire again with a consultant from King Arthur.  I had a chat, followed up with an email.  Following  are the contents of the two.

The "chat":
"
Elisabeth B: Hi there! Thank you for chatting with us here at King Arthur Flour. How can I help you?
You: Hi
You: I have a question about your Diastatic Malt Powder.  I actually contacted you folks a couple of days ago (Sandra) and learned that the "Lintner Degrees" measure was 100.
You: I am planning on following a recipe that calls  for "Low Diastatic Powder"
You: and the author has pointed us to a measure of 20 degrees Lintner
You: Do you happen to know if it is as simple as taking the King Arthur powder and using 1/5 the amount prescribed?
Elisabeth B: No, that sounds too easy of a fix. 
Elisabeth B: What are you going to use it in?  A bread that needs several rises?
You: Pizza.  Short mix, then 2 days cold ferment
Elisabeth B: I see.  Hold on while I do some research.
You: ok
You: to be more clear.  It is only "one rise".  After the mix, the pizza dough is balled up into individual portions.  Then, after a 24-48 hour cold ferment, they are out of the fridge, tempered and then the pizza dough is opened and baked.
Elisabeth B: I was checking on the rating of our non-distatic powder and it is 60.  We do not have what you need I am afraid.
You: I think/hope you meant Diastatic Powder.  I do not need the non-diastatic.
Elisabeth B: One moment please.
You: sure
You: and thanks
Elisabeth B: The only distatic powder we have has the 100 rating.  I thought I would check the the non for comparison.
You: Oh, I see, thanks.
Elisabeth B: I am not completely sure on what to recommend you do. 
Elisabeth B: It is completely acceptable to use the 100 powder as it will do what you need it to do.
Elisabeth B: It will provide food for the yeast to keep turning the starches into sugars during that long rise in the frig.
You: OK.  I think I understand but the chemistry is beyond my knowledge.  Do you happen to know, generally, the difference in impact or effect between using the 20 degree value vs. 100?  What do you think may actually be different?
Elisabeth B: I am really not sure.  I also need to educate myself Mitch.  I will need to get back to you.  I am sorry and appreciate your patience.
You: ok, thanks a lot.  That would be terrific.  I think I gave you my email address when I registered for the chat.  You can reach me there.
Elisabeth B: Great!  Thanks.
You: BTW, the other reason (aside from the obvious of 20/100) that I was guessing at 1/5 is that the recipe calls for the diastatic malt at 2% of Total Flour.  That is multiples of the amount recommended by KA which I estimated to be roughly 1/2% or less.
Elisabeth B: I see.  Who's book are you using?
You: Pizza Bible by Tony Gemignani
You: It is a brand new book.  The use of diastatic malt powder is kind of a new thing to the people I have been chatting with.  If you want you can check out pizzamaking.com and look at the "Cookbook Reviews"
You: You will see a very substantial discussion about the diastatic malt powder, the availability, etc.
You: I am actually checking with you on both my own behalf and on the behalf of the members there
Elisabeth B: What members?
Elisabeth B: Oh, on the Cookbook Reviews.
You: Oh sorry, not a club, etc.  It is an internet forum
You: So, it is the people that have registered in the forum and exchange information, recipes, etc.
Elisabeth B: Ok, I will be in touch MItch.
You: Here is the link to the thread
You: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,30759.0.html
Elisabeth B: Thank you.
You: Thanks to you
"
The email:

"
Hello Mitch –
 
I have spoken with some folks in our test kitchen and your inclination to use less was correct.  Yes, it is a question of concentration.  Malt Powder is typically 100.  Malt extract is either 20 or 60.   If using 100 in a 20 recipe, we suggest reducing the amount  by 80%.
 
100g #20 malt becomes 20g #100 malt.
 
The recipe you are using is probably calling for a 20 Lintner because it would be readily available locally.  Your local beer supply store will sell a malt syrup with a degree of 20.
 
Hope this helps Mitch!
 
Happy pizza making!
 
Sincerely,
 
Elisabeth
"

BTW, the standard recommendation from KA for use of their Diastatic Malt powder is 0.5 - 1.0 teaspoons per 3 cups of flour.  The standard KA measure for a cup of flour is 4.25 ounces.  So, 4 cups is 3 cups X 4.25 ounces/cup X 28.35 grams/ounce = 361.5 grams.  1 teaspoon of the malt powder is 2 grams, so the recommendation is 1 to 2 grams.  That is 0.27% - 0.54%.  The 1/5 of 2% = 0.4% is, therefore, entirely consistent with the standard recommendation for the use of the Diastatic Malt Powder.

My conclusion is that our members do not have to feel that they must use the "low diastatic malt powder' which seems to have limited sourcing.  That, instead, they can purchase other choices but must be aware of the Lintner number and adjust accordingly.

- Mitch

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: tinroofrusted on November 17, 2014, 09:53:32 AM
I made the Master Dough with Starter (page 44) over the weekend.  This recipe makes a very delicious pizza.  Since the recipe is not much different than my normal process other than the addition of diastatic malt, I have to credit the diastatic malt with the additional flavor. It's definitely worth tracking down some diastatic malt if you don't have some already. 

One thing I should mention for those that are baking in a Blackstone oven or other oven that is capable of getting really hot. Be careful you don't bake this recipe too hot. I put the first pizza on with the Blackstone bottom stone probably around 625F (which is my normal bottom stone temp for my regular recipe without diastatic malt) and it burned the bottom to a black crisp.  On the second pizza I dialed the temperature down to about 500F and the pizza baked really well, with nice browning on the bottom.  So be forewarned, this recipe will burn if you bake it too hot. 
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on November 17, 2014, 10:23:01 AM
Makes sense.  On page 16 (the section on Malt), Tony specifically says you should not use the malt for ovens that attain temperatures of 650 and above.  625 vs. 650 is probably not meaningful in this context.  Who knows, maybe a fraction of the malt would be OK.

- Mitch
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: norma427 on November 20, 2014, 12:47:53 PM
I forgot to mention it, but the Central Milling diastatic malt I ordered arrived on Monday.

Norma
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Matthew on November 28, 2014, 05:02:53 AM
All I have been able to find locally is dried malt extract in the form of concentrated brewers wort.  To my knowledge it is non-diastatic.  Can you make your own diastatic malt flour by purchasing a base 2 row malt & grinding it into a powder with a Vitamix?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: norma427 on November 30, 2014, 08:22:32 AM
For anyone that is interested, I took 5 weighings of 1 level teaspoon of Central Millings low moisture diastatic malt, then averaged the weighings.  The average was then 2.974 grams.

3.00
2.98
2.97
2.91
3.01

For a total of 14.87 grams divided by 5=2.974 grams

Norma
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: jvp123 on November 30, 2014, 10:12:33 PM
Thanks for posting that Norma!  ;D 
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: JD on December 02, 2014, 08:34:12 AM
Has anyone made pizza using their diastatic malt? I'm waiting on some positive results from you all to buy some.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: caymus on December 02, 2014, 09:49:39 AM
Has anyone made pizza using their diastatic malt? I'm waiting on some positive results from you all to buy some.

I am waiting for Norma's opinion before I buy some


http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,30641.msg351852.html#msg351852
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: dsissitka on December 02, 2014, 10:36:22 AM
At this point I've made the master dough a few dozen times.

Malt vs Sugar: They taste different. Sugar sweetens dough but I don't really taste sugar. I taste malt. So far that's the only difference I'm sure of.

Central Milling vs Hoosier Hill Farm: So far I don't notice any differences between the two.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: norma427 on December 02, 2014, 09:57:40 PM
Has anyone made pizza using their diastatic malt? I'm waiting on some positive results from you all to buy some.

I am waiting for Norma's opinion before I buy some


http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,30641.msg351852.html#msg351852

Josh and caymus,

This was only one test, but I would say the Central Milling low moisture malt gave me better oven spring and a better taste in the crust.  It also gave a moister inside rim.  I also used sugar which my normal dough uses and used a bleached and bromated flour.  I will post the other photos on my other thread.

Norma
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: JD on December 02, 2014, 10:23:51 PM
Thanks for the update Norma, your pizza looks great. Did you notice any difference in crust color?

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: norma427 on December 02, 2014, 10:35:23 PM
Thanks for the update Norma, your pizza looks great. Did you notice any difference in crust color?

Josh,

Thanks!  The rim crust did brown better, but the other photos really don't show how the pizza really looked in person.  The artificial lighting at market is not the best for taking photos, unless the photos are taken close.

Norma
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: JD on December 03, 2014, 08:05:33 AM
If anyone here has purchased the 5lb bag from Central Milling, and wants to get rid of a lb or two, send me a pm.  :pizza:
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: jsaras on December 03, 2014, 09:49:26 AM
I'll take a 1/16 of a pound!
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: drmatt357 on December 03, 2014, 09:39:58 PM
Norma, I came here from the other thread. Do or did you substitute the malt for sugar? Or cut down on sugar and if so, how much?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: norma427 on December 03, 2014, 09:59:04 PM
Norma, I came here from the other thread. Do or did you substitute the malt for sugar? Or cut down on sugar and if so, how much?


Dr. Matt,

I did not substitute the malt for the sugar.  I added both.  I used 2% of the Central Milling low moisture diastatic malt in addition to 0.80% sugar.  My deck oven is not really high in temperature though. 

Norma
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Qarl on December 03, 2014, 11:04:30 PM
Anyone know if this will work?

http://www.amazon.com/Diastatic-Malt-Powder-1-lb/dp/B0001AVRRE/?tag=pizzamaking-20
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: dsissitka on December 03, 2014, 11:36:12 PM
Anyone know if this will work?

http://www.amazon.com/Diastatic-Malt-Powder-1-lb/dp/B0001AVRRE/?tag=pizzamaking-20

I don't know about that but so far I don't notice any difference between Central Milling's and http://www.amazon.com/Hoosier-Hill-Farm-Fashioned-Diastatic/dp/B008T9LX3C/?tag=pizzamaking-20.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2014, 07:18:10 AM
Anyone know if this will work?

http://www.amazon.com/Diastatic-Malt-Powder-1-lb/dp/B0001AVRRE/?tag=pizzamaking-20
Karl,

It is hard to say without knowing the degrees Lintner number. For example, the low diastatic malt that Tony uses comes from AB Mauri and comprises "Wheat flour, dextrose, malted barley". It has a degrees Lintner number of 20 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/431c70sku92j9ml/2614%20Dry%20Malt%20Low%20Diastatic%20BOOKLET.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/431c70sku92j9ml/2614%20Dry%20Malt%20Low%20Diastatic%20BOOKLET.pdf?dl=0)). As for the Barry Farm diastatic malt, the Amazon website describes the ingredients as "flour, dextrose, and barley malt powder" but the package shown in the photo lists the ingredients as "Malted Barley Flour, Dextrose, flour", which is essentially the reverse order. The Barry Farm website lists the ingredients as shown in the photo (http://www.barryfarm.com/nutri_info/baking%20supplies/diastaticmaltpowder.htm (http://www.barryfarm.com/nutri_info/baking%20supplies/diastaticmaltpowder.htm)). To me that order would suggest a higher degree Lintner number than 20.

King Arthur also sells a diastatic malt that comprises "Malted barley flour, wheat flour, dextrose" (https://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1298304180122.pdf (https://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1298304180122.pdf)). Member mitchjg (Mitch) was recently told by King Arthur that their diastatic malt has a Lintner degrees number of 100, and he was subsequently told that the amount used could be reduced to achieve a result that is similar to a Lintner degrees number of 20.

The diastatic malt from Hoosier Hill Farm that dsissitka mentioned includes the same ingredients and sequence as the Barry Farm product (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008T9LX3C/?tag=pizzamaking-20 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008T9LX3C/?tag=pizzamaking-20)). He says that he hasn't noticed a difference between the Hoosier Hill Farm diastatic malt and that used by Tony. But we can't know for sure whether the Barry Farm product will work the same as the Hoosier Hill Farm product. However, if you look at the Barry Farm website, you will see the cautionary statement: Use approximately 1 tsp. per loaf.  The use of more diastatic malt than this can result in slack, sticky dough, and will not improve yeast action. I take that statement to mean that their product may not be a low diastatic malt product. But without the degrees Lintner number, we cannot say for sure.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Qarl on December 04, 2014, 07:22:33 AM
You've been no help, Peter. 

I'm kidding.  LOL

 :P
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Qarl on December 04, 2014, 09:50:10 AM
Well apparently there is concern here about 20 versus 100 Lintner variations in available malts and the quantity used.  So I am assuming this will work... and will probabyl be subject to a few test pizzas to figure out which version you have.

This could be just repackaged KA malt, or from another source like CM.   ???
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: rtfritz on December 04, 2014, 10:05:25 AM
Hi, newbie here.  I attempted Tony's recipe last night.  Fairly sure I used a high diastatic malt powder, but do not have the package anymore, wife took out the trash  >:(.  I used AT flour and followed the weights on his recipe to a "T".  I dont have them all in front of me now, but pretty sure it was 453 grams flour, 225 grams ice water, 70 grams luke warm water mix with the yeast to activate, believe 9 grams of salt and malt and 2 grams of EVO.  I followed his instructions, flour and malt in mixer first, then add ice water, then warm water and yeast mixture, then salt, finally the oil, and followed the mixing times in the book.  In his instructions is does not say anything about letting the dough rest in the mixer before kneading, so I immediately took it out to knead and found it to be too sticky and wet to knead, just completely stuck to my hands.  I had to add quite a bit of flour to be able to knead it, but didnt want to add too much so stopped and worked it into a ball.  It wasnt smooth when I oiled and put in the fridge.  I was wondering if maybe it is the wrong malt, my inexperience with a higher hydration(I usually only make thin crust), or if others have had this problem as well.  Any suggestions or comments are appreciated.  Sorry no pics right now, then dough has been in the fridge since about 7 pm central time last night. 
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2014, 10:27:06 AM
You've been no help, Peter. 

I'm kidding.  LOL

 :P
Karl,

I actually called Barry Farm. A woman who seemed to be an elderly person (from her voice) answered the phone but she didn't have the foggiest idea of what I was talking about. So, she suggested that I send an email on the subject at [email protected] I did that but I would be surprised if I get an answer. In the email, I asked for the degrees Lintner number as well as their supplier's name.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2014, 10:37:15 AM
Hi, newbie here.  I attempted Tony's recipe last night.  Fairly sure I used a high diastatic malt powder, but do not have the package anymore, wife took out the trash  >:(.  I used AT flour and followed the weights on his recipe to a "T".  I dont have them all in front of me now, but pretty sure it was 453 grams flour, 225 grams ice water, 70 grams luke warm water mix with the yeast to activate, believe 9 grams of salt and malt and 2 grams of EVO.  I followed his instructions, flour and malt in mixer first, then add ice water, then warm water and yeast mixture, then salt, finally the oil, and followed the mixing times in the book.  In his instructions is does not say anything about letting the dough rest in the mixer before kneading, so I immediately took it out to knead and found it to be too sticky and wet to knead, just completely stuck to my hands.  I had to add quite a bit of flour to be able to knead it, but didnt want to add too much so stopped and worked it into a ball.  It wasnt smooth when I oiled and put in the fridge.  I was wondering if maybe it is the wrong malt, my inexperience with a higher hydration(I usually only make thin crust), or if others have had this problem as well.  Any suggestions or comments are appreciated.  Sorry no pics right now, then dough has been in the fridge since about 7 pm central time last night.
rtfritz,

I suspect that you used a high diastatic malt product. When you use the wrong diastatic malt or too much of it, or both, the amylase enzymes in the diastatic malt attack the damaged starch molecules too aggressively and that causes the starch molecules to release water into the dough, making it wet and sticky and hard to handle. If the hydration value is also high (it is about 65% for your dough), that will further aggravate the situation. And the problem may not be completely curable, as by using a series of stretch and folds or by adding more flour to the dough. Please let us know how things turn out in your case since others may find themselves against the same problem.

Peter

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: rtfritz on December 04, 2014, 10:56:38 AM
Peter, thank you for the response.  I am fairly certain it was a high diastatic malt, I ordered it from Amazon,  I didnt see this thread before trying my first batch.  Ill follow up with my disaster  :-D as I move forward in the process.  Garth Brooks concert tomorrow so will likely be Saturday before I attempt to make the pies. 
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 04, 2014, 11:10:12 AM
King Arthur also sells a diastatic malt that comprises "Malted barley flour, wheat flour, dextrose" (https://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1298304180122.pdf (https://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1298304180122.pdf)). Member mitchjg (Mitch) was recently told by King Arthur that their diastatic malt has a Lintner degrees number of 100, and he was subsequently told that the amount used could be reduced to achieve a result that is similar to a Lintner degrees number of 20.

Peter,

That's interesting; this KA nutritional statement with the same UPC does not list dextrose, but rather cane sugar (sucrose), as an ingredient. That not the only difference either - the flour and malted barley flour are reversed. They also either added or removed the 6-month storage note. http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1416587105110.pdf This one appears to be newer - more along the lines of their current branding - although there is no date on either which is kind of bad form on their part.

Notwithstanding, the KA nutritional analysis stayed the same. The Berry Farm nutritional statement shows more than double the caloric density and what is likely 50% more carbohydrates as compared to KA. Given this and that KA has said they have a relatively high Lintner, this would also seem to suggest a lower Lintner for the Berry Farm DM.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: dsissitka on December 04, 2014, 01:05:52 PM
Peter,

That's interesting; this KA nutritional statement with the same UPC does not list dextrose, but rather cane sugar (sucrose), as an ingredient. That not the only difference either - the flour and malted barley flour are reversed. They also either added or removed the 6-month storage note. http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1416587105110.pdf This one appears to be newer - more along the lines of their current branding - although there is no date on either which is kind of bad form on their part.

Notwithstanding, the KA nutritional analysis stayed the same. The Berry Farm nutritional statement shows more than double the caloric density and what is likely 50% more carbohydrates as compared to KA. Given this and that KA has said they have a relatively high Lintner, this would also seem to suggest a lower Lintner for the Berry Farm DM.

The label you linked to is newer:

Code: [Select]
[email protected]:~/Downloads$ pdfinfo peter.pdf | grep CreationDate
CreationDate:   Mon Feb 21 11:03:00 2011
[email protected]:~/Downloads$ pdfinfo craig.pdf | grep CreationDate
CreationDate:   Wed Sep 17 08:39:42 2014
[email protected]:~/Downloads$
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on December 04, 2014, 01:52:51 PM
Did you really mean to include Ubuntu command line code?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2014, 02:51:34 PM
Peter,

That's interesting; this KA nutritional statement with the same UPC does not list dextrose, but rather cane sugar (sucrose), as an ingredient. That not the only difference either - the flour and malted barley flour are reversed. They also either added or removed the 6-month storage note. http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1416587105110.pdf This one appears to be newer - more along the lines of their current branding - although there is no date on either which is kind of bad form on their part.

Notwithstanding, the KA nutritional analysis stayed the same. The Berry Farm nutritional statement shows more than double the caloric density and what is likely 50% more carbohydrates as compared to KA. Given this and that KA has said they have a relatively high Lintner, this would also seem to suggest a lower Lintner for the Berry Farm DM.
Craig,

What you found is very interesting. But something struck me as unusual this morning when I was trying to include a link to the KA pdf diastatic malt document in the post directed earlier today to Karl. I found the link in one of my earlier posts but it would not work. I swore that I had properly included a functioning link in my earlier post but I know that it can sometimes be a problem to embed links in posts on the forum. So I did a Google search to locate the pdf document again, and used the link for that document in the post to Karl. I then decided to check the same link in another post that I had composed. And that link didn't work either. So I fixed that one. I almost always test links in my posts before posting so I found it odd that I would have two faulty links. Maybe the KA pdf document you found replaced the one I was using.

With respect to the dextrose versus sugar matter, as I noted at Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34845.msg347080.html#msg347080 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34845.msg347080.html#msg347080), dextrose is technically a form of glucose that has about three-quarters of the sweetness of ordinary table sugar, or sucrose. I wonder what the substitution of cane sugar for dextrose and the repositioning of the ingredients does to the Lintner number.

As for the Barry Farm diastatic malt product, it could have a Lintner lower than 100 but it might not be as low as around 20, especially if the malted barley flour is the first item in the list of ingredients.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 04, 2014, 03:02:41 PM
dextrose is technically a form of glucose that has about three-quarters of the sweetness of ordinary table sugar, or sucrose. I wonder what the substitution of cane sugar for dextrose and the repositioning of the ingredients does to the Lintner number.

Might not do anything. Maybe they replaced the dextrose with a smaller amount of scurose and the sweetness is unchanged, then they replace the difference with flour. DM/total is the same but flour/total goes up and flour becomes the first ingredient on the label as seen in the new label. My guess is it's less expensive to manufacture this way.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: jsaras on December 04, 2014, 05:54:34 PM
Gemignani should send Peter royalty checks for completing his pizza book.  I'd demand my name on the cover as well :P   
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2014, 06:00:04 PM
LOL.  :-D

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: thezaman on December 04, 2014, 06:12:11 PM
I just received a bag from my bakery supply . It is ab mauri I am using it in conjunction with sugar  total of 1.7 percent . I will lean out the sugar amount over a week period. I have not tried a dough using it yet. If any one wants small quantities PM me.it costs about 1.75 per pound.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Chicago Bob on December 04, 2014, 06:16:05 PM
Gemignani should send Peter royalty checks for completing his pizza book.  I'd demand my name on the cover as well :P   
A simple Facebook nod to Peter would be pretty classy.
I'm surprised he didn't reach out to Peter in the early stages of the book development......I know I certainly would. Peter didn't jus start doing this stuff 2 months ago.  ;)
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2014, 06:30:11 PM
I just received a bag from my bakery supply . It is ab mauri I am using it in conjunction with sugar  total of 1.7 percent . I will lean out the sugar amount over a week period. I have not tried a dough using it yet. If any one wants small quantities PM me.it costs about 1.75 per pound.
What I find interesting is that the three diastatic malt ingredients in the AB Mauri product as set forth at

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/content_link/ybZr6Hti47lppmHAziI6grVJCAd76rYOtCgnKBqnzwfge2Va7hJxoXaSMwEfdwja?dl=1

are shown in a different order on the bag. The product codes are the same (2614). Increasingly, it looks like one cannot rely on ingredients lists and should instead ask for the Lintner numbers.

Peter

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: rtfritz on December 04, 2014, 07:39:44 PM
Peter I see you emailed about Barry Farms.  That is the product I purchased, and I cannot find if it is low or high diastatic anywhere either.  If you hear back I would be interested to know. 

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001AVRRE/?tag=pizzamaking-20

Degassed the dough today and it was a little more workable and less sticky.  Unfortunately I could not get picks of the stickiness since it was in my hands, but would hang about 4-6" before dropping to the counter and leave a little residue on my hands.  I've never worked with a 65% hydration, so maybe that is normal.  I did ball, but couldnt not get it completely smooth.  If I should be posting this elsewhere, anyone can just lmk.  Lots on this forum to learn. 
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: rtfritz on December 04, 2014, 07:43:38 PM
one other pic
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2014, 07:45:57 PM
rtfritz,

You might post the details of your pizza in an existing thread on the same recipe or start a new thread if there is no existing thread. However, you might post in this thread how the diastatic malt worked out for you.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: CaptBob on December 04, 2014, 08:56:36 PM
Peter or Craig.....I'm sooo in over my head even reading this thread but ......twice now I've seen it mentioned that ingredients appear in a "different order"  on the bag........what is the significance of how ingredients are listed and in what order??

Thank you!

Bob
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: jsaras on December 04, 2014, 09:04:54 PM
Generally speaking, the ingredients are listed in the order of their prevalence.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Gags on December 04, 2014, 09:05:29 PM
Hi All,

Apologies if this is a re-post, but I just got my AB Mauri product from New York Bakers.
Here's the label that shows the approx. quantities of each ingredient category.
Not sure how easily you can translate these into the primary ingredients.
For example, is the sugar listed all of the dextrose and nothing else?
Probably not, but it's a data point, I guess...

(PS - I was finally able to see the dropbox image Peter posted and realize he provided much more info on this product...)
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: CaptBob on December 04, 2014, 09:08:33 PM
Generally speaking, the ingredients are listed in the order of their prevalence.


Thank you Jonas.......
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2014, 09:26:58 PM
Bob,

If the companies that make or sell diastatic malt products are subject to the jurisdiction of the FDA when it comes to labeling their products, the ingredients they list are required to be reported in descending order of predominance by weight, as Jonas noted as I was composing this post. That means that the heaviest ingredient by weight is the first ingredient in the list and is followed by the other ingredients in descending order by weight.

However, there can be exceptions to the above rule. For example, if you look at paragraph 17 of the FDA rules and regulations on labeling at

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=101.4

you will see that there can be exceptions to the order in which ingredients are required to be reported. Paragraph 17 applies to yeast nutrients. Arguably, diastatic malts are yeast nutrients, albeit indirectly (through the conversion of damaged starch to sugar to feed the yeast). According to paragraph 17, if a manufacturer of diastatic malt is unable to adhere to a constant pattern of yeast nutrients in the product, the listing of the common or usual names of individual yeast nutrients need not be in descending order of predominance.

Whether the above exception applies to manufacturers or sellers of diastatic malt, I have no idea. It could also be that such manufacturers are not subject to the jurisdiction of the FDA and, hence, can report the ingredients in their diastatic malts any way they want. That is the reason why I suggested that one try to get the Lintner numbers.

Peter

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: CaptBob on December 04, 2014, 09:29:57 PM
Thank you so much Peter......I have so much to learn........
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2014, 09:38:57 PM
Thank you so much Peter......I have so much to learn........
Bob,

All you really need to know is if a particular diastatic malt is a low diastatic malt, and the best way to know that is by the Lintner number. A Lintner number around 20 would be a low diastatic malt. Red Star makes both a 20 Lintner diastatic malt product and a 60 Lintner diastatic malt product. It calls the 20 Lintner a low activity product and the 60 Lintner a high activity product.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2014, 09:55:42 PM
Hi All,

Apologies if this is a re-post, but I just got my AB Mauri product from New York Bakers.
Here's the label that shows the approx. quantities of each ingredient category.
Not sure how easily you can translate these into the primary ingredients.
For example, is the sugar listed all of the dextrose and nothing else?
Probably not, but it's a data point, I guess...

(PS - I was finally able to see the dropbox image Peter posted and realize he provided much more info on this product...)
Ryan,

It's quite possible that the New York Bakers listing of ingredients is incorrect and incomplete by listing only the barley malt on the label. If New York Bakers is subject to the FDA regulations, it may be in violation of such regulations by failing to list all of the ingredients. There may also be some problems by failing to list the flour, which some people cannot handle because of gluten intolerance.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: CaptBob on December 04, 2014, 09:59:15 PM
Bob,

All you really need to know is if a particular diastatic malt is a low diastatic malt, and the best way to know that is by the Lintner number. A Lintner number around 20 would be a low diastatic malt. Red Star makes both a 20 Lintner diastatic malt product and a 60 Lintner diastatic malt product. It calls the 20 Lintner a low activity product and the 60 Lintner a high activity product.

Peter

This info is just invaluable Peter....Thank you!!
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: rtfritz on December 04, 2014, 11:30:37 PM
This is using the Barry Farms, not sure if its high or low.  Was rough to work with out of the mixer, not as bad to work with after 24 cold ferm.  This one was based off Essen1's 63% off his post with just 24 hours in the fridge.  Was tasty.  I havent figured out posting links from the forum pages yet, so copied and paste below.   


Offline Essen1

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Re: Tony's Master dough w/o starter "New Yorker"
« Reply #39 on: November 09, 2014, 01:20:15 PM »

    Quote

Mark,

Nice job! Ours look almost identical as far as crust coloration is concerned.

I have tweaked Tony's formula a little and will get going on this today, right now as a matter of fact. I merely lowered the hydration by two percentage points and cut the yeast amount in half. I may or may not extend the mixing time a little depending how the dough looks and feels.

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
ADY (0.5%):
Salt (2%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Diastatic Malt Powder (2%):
Total (168.5%):
Single Ball:
655.7 g  |  23.13 oz | 1.45 lbs
413.09 g  |  14.57 oz | 0.91 lbs
3.28 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.87 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
13.11 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.35 tsp | 0.78 tbsp
6.56 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.46 tsp | 0.49 tbsp
13.11 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 0.52 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
1104.86 g | 38.97 oz | 2.44 lbs | TF = 0.08585
552.43 g | 19.49 oz | 1.22 lbs

Bowl residue 1%
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on December 05, 2014, 08:56:24 AM
rtfritz,

Did you like the pizza?

Also, did you weigh the Barry Farm diastatic malt or did you use one of the volume measurements?

I cleaned up your last post to show the formulation more clearly, and I rotated the last photo of your post to the proper position. As for including a link in a new post, my practice is to 1) click on the topic heading of the post I want to reference in the new post, 2) highlight the url in the address bar, and 3) copy and paste the url into the new post (I use Ctrl-C to copy and Ctrl-V to paste). You should also take a look at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,24060.msg244258.html#msg244258 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,24060.msg244258.html#msg244258) to see how to properly insert the url into the new post. Failure to properly enter the url can render it inoperative and you or someone else is bound to get a 404 error message or something similar. And you should always test the link in the Preview mode before hitting the Post button to be sure it works. Some members leave a space after the inserted link or leave out punctuation and that will usually result in the link being operative but the post isn't as neat or clean looking as using the method referenced above. Putting the link on a separate line will also render the link usable. I occasionally use some of these techniques myself when I am on my iPad because it is easier for me to do.

Using the above steps, the link to Mike's post is http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34945.msg348304.html#msg348304 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34945.msg348304.html#msg348304).

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: rtfritz on December 05, 2014, 09:33:45 AM
I appreciate it Peter, I"ll get the hang of posting hopefully sooner rather than later. 

Yes I really liked the pizza.  The dough tasted sweeter than any other I have made and the crust was a little chewy(not bad chewy) on the rim.  It held up nicely while forming the pizza, but there were quite a lot of air bubbles. I baked it at 525 in an electric oven on 3/8" steel for about 5 minutes, pulled it out while the broiler heated up, then broiled for about 45 seconds. 

The exact formula I used is below, and weighed the ingredients in grams.  I do need a better scale as my scale doesn't go to 1/10 of a gram, so had to do a little guesstimating.  I substituted the sugar weight with the Barry Farms diastatic malt powder.  Ill move any further posts to the Tony G thread, just posted here since I saw the conversation on different malts. 

Flour (100%):    235.43 g  |  8.3 oz | 0.52 lbs
Water (63%):    148.32 g  |  5.23 oz | 0.33 lbs
ADY (.5%):    1.18 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.31 tsp | 0.1 tbsp
Salt (2%):    4.71 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.84 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
Oil (1%):    2.35 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.52 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Sugar (2%):    4.71 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.18 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
Total (168.5%):   396.7 g | 13.99 oz | 0.87 lbs | TF = 0.0909


Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Gags on December 05, 2014, 02:26:24 PM
Ryan,

It's quite possible that the New York Bakers listing of ingredients is incorrect and incomplete by listing only the barley malt on the label. If New York Bakers is subject to the FDA regulations, it may be in violation of such regulations by failing to list all of the ingredients. There may also be some problems by failing to list the flour, which some people cannot handle because of gluten intolerance.

Peter

For sure!  I noticed that as well, that their "aftermarket" label only listed the barley malt, but we already had seen the complete list on your post.
Strange, bakers are supposed to be more precise!
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: ZekeTheCat on December 05, 2014, 02:51:24 PM
I use liquid barley malt extract sometimes in my crust. It seems to help with the flavor somewhat.

Is this the same as diastatic malt powder that you're discussing - but in liquid form ?

http://www.iherb.com/Eden-Foods-Organic-Traditional-Barley-Malt-Syrup-20-oz-566-g/11224?gclid=CMbsjqvTr8ICFeNaMgod7xsARA


Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on December 05, 2014, 03:27:48 PM
I believe not because I think that is NON-Diastatic.

- Mitch
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on December 05, 2014, 03:39:40 PM
I use liquid barley malt extract sometimes in my crust. It seems to help with the flavor somewhat.

Is this the same as diastatic malt powder that you're discussing - but in liquid form ?

http://www.iherb.com/Eden-Foods-Organic-Traditional-Barley-Malt-Syrup-20-oz-566-g/11224?gclid=CMbsjqvTr8ICFeNaMgod7xsARA
ZekeTheCat,

Mitch (mitchjg) is correct. The Eden product is nondiastatic malt. It has no amylase enzyme functionality.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 07, 2014, 02:37:11 PM
Can anyone name a pizzeria that would generally be considered "great" - or even "very good" for that matter - that adds diastatic malt to their dough?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: jsaras on December 07, 2014, 03:28:04 PM
Apparently Pizzeria Mozza does it, which explains the low temp bake
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 07, 2014, 03:42:01 PM
How do you know that?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on December 07, 2014, 03:42:14 PM
Can anyone name a pizzeria that would generally be considered "great" - or even "very good" for that matter - that adds diastatic malt to their dough?
Craig,

One of our members, AnnieK, went to organic flour and sought our help to be able to make pizzas with good crust coloration. We suggested that she add diastatic malt to her dough. She and another lady own and run Hot Tomato Pizza, which seems to get good reviews: http://hottomatocafe.com/ (http://hottomatocafe.com/).

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on December 07, 2014, 03:46:04 PM
Apparently Pizzeria Mozza does it, which explains the low temp bake

The Mozza cookbook calls for “barley malt or mild-flavored honey” - that is non diastatic malt used more as an alternative to sugar.
According to Nancy Silverton, the dough they use in the restaurant has the same ingredients (different timing and probably workflow) with the exception of wheat germ (not in the restaurant dough but it is in the home version).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRRxG-jOqV8

- Mitch
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on December 07, 2014, 03:54:25 PM
Apparently Pizzeria Mozza does it, which explains the low temp bake
I attempted to address the Mozza case in Reply 5 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34845.msg347053.html#msg347053 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34845.msg347053.html#msg347053). In that post, I referenced a blog article at http://www.foodgal.com/2011/09/pure-pizza-dough-heaven-the-recipe-from-pizzeria-mozza/ (http://www.foodgal.com/2011/09/pure-pizza-dough-heaven-the-recipe-from-pizzeria-mozza/). The recipe cited in the article, which I believe comes from Nancy Silverton's book, calls for "barley malt or mild flavored honey". As Mitch noted as I was composing this post, that wording would suggest that the barley malt is a sweetener not a source of amylase, such as diastatic malt. Of course, the recipe in the book might not be the same as used at Mozza, but I would need to be convinced that Mozza uses diastatic malt.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on December 07, 2014, 03:56:32 PM
Apparently Pizzeria Mozza does it, which explains the low temp bake

You are correct. Mozza does use Malt & rye actually.

http://www.laweekly.com/squidink/2011/02/17/sfs-pizza-pundit-tony-gemignani-weighs-in-on-las-pies-names-his-favorite-and-considers-the-starfish-calzone

Quote
Pizzeria Mozza:

Though he was tempted by butterscotch ("The budino here is pretty much the best dessert in the US," he raved), Gemignani quickly set about expounding on how Nancy Silverton's signature pies, which he calls California style with an Italian perspective, fit into the pizza canon. While the quick bake in a wood-fired oven is similar to classic Neapolitan, at Mozza, the lower temperature, longer bake, and the reported addition of malt and rye, give the crust a complexity not found in Naples' pride and joy, which is just flour, yeast, salt, and water.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on December 07, 2014, 04:04:53 PM
Craig's question was about the use of diastatic malt. 

The cookbook, video and LA Weekly articles all mention malt, but it seems clear that these mentions are about non-diastatic malt - as further described by Peter.

- Mitch
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: woodmakesitgood on December 07, 2014, 04:07:58 PM
It looks like Tony uses malt in his dough for a Roman style pizza.
Its interesting that great pizzerias use different kinds of malt in their dough recipes.  :chef:
http://www.tonygemignani.com/author/admin/ (http://www.tonygemignani.com/author/admin/)

The search for a delicious end product leads people to try different things, like making a NY style pizza using a starter. ;)
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on December 07, 2014, 04:14:06 PM
Craig's question was about the use of diastatic malt. 

The cookbook, video and LA Weekly articles all mention malt, but it seems clear that these mentions are about non-diastatic malt - as further described by Peter.

- Mitch

Non-diastatic malt is basically nothing else but a sugar substitute and adds nothing to the crust in terms of texture, structure or complexity. It adds sweetness to the dough but that's about it.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 07, 2014, 04:14:12 PM
The search for a delicious end product leads people to try different things, like making a NY style pizza using a starter. ;)

More often than not, it distracts you from the things that matter. The apparent fact that adding DM is all but unheard of in serious pizzerias speaks volumes.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on December 07, 2014, 04:20:45 PM
The apparent fact that most serious pizzerias guard their dough recipes better than Fort Knox might also be a reason it's unheard of.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: woodmakesitgood on December 07, 2014, 04:31:25 PM
The apparent fact that adding DM is all but unheard of in serious pizzerias speaks volumes.

Even if that statement were verifiable (which it is not), it could catch on, just like NY style pizzerias using a starter, with great success.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 07, 2014, 04:44:15 PM
The apparent fact that most serious pizzerias guard their dough recipes better than Fort Knox might also be a reason it's unheard of.

Maybe, but my kid's 8th grade football team has a better chance of winning the Superbowl than that being the case.  :-D
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 07, 2014, 04:45:37 PM
Even if that statement were verifiable (which it is not), it could catch on, just like NY style pizzerias using a starter, with great success.

and an elephant could hang from a cliff with its tail tied to a daisy...
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on December 07, 2014, 04:52:49 PM
Maybe, but my kid's 8th grade football team has a better chance of winning the Superbowl than that being the case.  :-D

If they played the Raiders, I'd believe it.  ;D
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: woodmakesitgood on December 07, 2014, 05:01:15 PM
and an elephant could hang from a cliff with its tail tied to a daisy...

...and charred pizza might become a big seller in the US!
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on December 07, 2014, 06:13:11 PM
Craig raises a fair question about the use professionally of diastatic malt, and his assessment is also fair.

I have been reading about diastatic malt for years and its use was always to fix a problem, not to be a major component of a dough from a formulation design standpoint. Usually diastatic malt was added to unmalted flours, such as unmalted (and often otherwise untreated) organic flours. It could also be used with 00 flours, which are also unmalted, although there would usually be little need to use diastatic malt for high temperature oven applications. I used it with 00 flours for home oven use at normal oven temperatures. Diastatic malt could also be added to doughs using preferments where the preferment times were so long that they chewed up so much of the fermentescible sugars that diastatic malt was a solution to increase the sugar levels in the dough.

So, the use of diastatic malt as advocated by Tony G caught me by surprise. However, it is perhaps significant that the diastatic malt he recommends is a low diastatic malt and it includes things like flour and dextrose. That makes it safer for the dough than if only pure barley malt were added to a dough.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: tinroofrusted on December 07, 2014, 07:08:23 PM
More often than not, it distracts you from the things that matter. The apparent fact that adding DM is all but unheard of in serious pizzerias speaks volumes.
All I can tell you for sure is that the pizzas I've been making during the past few weeks with diastatic malt are undoubtedly tastier than those I was making before. The difference is clear. So I would just suggest that people give it a try and see for themselves.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on December 07, 2014, 11:12:14 PM
Craig raises a fair question about the use professionally of diastatic malt, and his assessment is also fair.

Peter

I am okay that you have your buddy's back but come on...we don't know how many places use DM to improve their crust. And I am pretty sure neither does TXCraig.

Tony G would not reveal this if it was just a fly-by, trendy thing or something he just discovered. It must be an insider thing, if you will, that's been around for some time. Just look abroad. In Europe malt is very common and I am pretty sure they are using the diastatic kind, not the non-D. I used to work in a bakery and malt powder was always around. For breads and rolls, mainly.

I will see Tony Gemignani next week and will ask if he has any insight of how many well-known places use DM.

The addition of malt to my doughs had significant impact on my crusts. To me that's a good thing, not bad.

The purists on this board don't have to use it. Stick to your %^$# and I will stick to mine.



Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 08, 2014, 09:30:28 AM
And I am pretty sure neither does TXCraig... It must be an insider thing, if you will, that's been around for some time. Just look abroad. In Europe malt is very common and I am pretty sure they are using the diastatic kind
...

The purists on this board don't have to use it. Stick to your %^$# and I will stick to mine.

I don't know - that's why I asked. I have a suspicion though, and I suspect if forced to honestly guess one way or the other, you would make the same guess as me. You may be right that it's an insider thing, but on the surface anyway, there just is no evidence of it. Like you said, it's been around for a long time yet somehow every big name pizzeria has kept it a secret for everyone digging through their trash trying to figure out how they make their pizza? Seems rather unlikely. Your theory is pretty much the plot line of the "Maximum Homerdrive" episode of the Simpson's.

Funny, you have a problem with purism and yet you are the only one to bring it up?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on December 08, 2014, 10:16:03 AM
Mike,

I agree with you that the use of diastatic malt by bakers is well known and of long standing. I tried to make this point earlier in this thread when I talked about Professor Calvel's use of diastatic malt for bread doughs, including the amounts he typically called for in his various doughs, at Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34845.msg346820.html#msg346820 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34845.msg346820.html#msg346820) and Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34845.msg347030.html#msg347030 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34845.msg347030.html#msg347030). What is less common from my readings over the years is the use of diastatic malt in the pizza realm. And, on that score, I was not able to find a lot on such use. For example, when I did a search of the posts on diastatic malt over at the PMQ Think Tank, I found only three threads that took the subject head on in the context of pizza, at:

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/malt-in-pizza-dough.14657

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/hand-tossed-dough.6146/

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/_lehmann-diastatic-malt.3037/

Craig's original question was a reasonable one. And I gave him an example of a case that I was aware of involving a professional member of the forum (AnnieK) who added diastatic malt to a pizza dough that worked out very well for her and her pizzeria. However, in her case, the diastatic malt was added to unmalted organic flour in order to be able to get more crust coloration, in other words, to fix a problem. As it turned out, she went with a Briess 20 Lintner diastatic malt at 0.32 pounds for 50 pounds of flour, or about 0.64%. In her case, anything less or above that amount created problems.

I don't have a dog in this hunt, so I am fine with people doing whatever works for them. My personal goal and objective is to try to understand things, that's all. So if there are a lot of professional pizza operators out there using diastatic malt, I'd like to know about it and learn what I can from it. I know for a fact that the big pizza chains, especially those that are subject to the FDA and publicize their ingredients list, and maybe some who are not subject to the FDA but publicize ingredients lists anyway, are not using diastatic malt because they would be required to say so or they may arouse the ire of their customers by not revealing such use. But there may be small operators who are using diastatic malt and are operating below the radar, like AnnieK. But even in her case, she was forthcoming about her use of diastatic malt, simply by coming to the forum seeking help.

It may well turn out that the saving grace in this whole diastatic malt affair is that adding 2% low diastatic malt can't hurt the dough. The thing about adding diastatic malt to a dough is that it sends up a signal when one uses too much of it--the dough is wet and sticky and hard to handle. Once you reach that point, you have gone a bit too far. In Tony's case, it looks like he takes the advice of AB Mauri and uses diastatic malt at the upper end of the range (0.5-2%) recommended by AB Mauri for pan breads and bagels, at https://www.dropbox.com/s/431c70sku92j9ml/2614%20Dry%20Malt%20Low%20Diastatic%20BOOKLET.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/431c70sku92j9ml/2614%20Dry%20Malt%20Low%20Diastatic%20BOOKLET.pdf?dl=0).

Peter

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: brianb10 on December 08, 2014, 10:47:50 AM
I hope I am not derailing the discussion here but I wanted to share my experience with using DM.  I am a longtime lurker here and relatively inexperienced with making pizza dough beyond the same day dough recipes you'd find on food network.  I recently purchased the Pizza Bible and for the last month have been playing around with his master dough recipe.  The first time I tried it, I burnt the bottom of the crust, something that has never happened before.  I bake in a very basic home oven on a pizza stone and unglazed quarry tiles.  I followed his recipe to the T including the 6 min bake time on the top stone and 5 on the bottom.  Bottom of crust was black and it was not the good kind of "char".  Dough itself was tasty and I was very happy with the browning on the top.  Second time I reduced the bake time and watched it like a hawk once I moved it to the bottom.  Bottom still burned although not as bad (blackness was concentrated at the center of the pie, working its way outward) because it was not left on the stone as long.  I was really perplexed at what was happening because if anything the bottom of my dough never gets as crisp as I would like and I could not think of anything I did different with my setup other than a little longer on the cooktime.  Then I found this thread.  After reading it I was convinced that the DM caused my bottom to burn.

I was using the DM from King Arthur and using it at the ratio provided in the book.  My most recent attempt last night had me reduce the DM from 9g to 2g and the result was a less burn but it looked like it would have burned had I left it in any longer.  In fact it appears that the crust continued to "cook" while sitting on the cutting board because when I came back to it about 20 mins later, those pieces were significantly more charred than the ones I ate right out of the oven.  Is this normal and does anyone think it is the DM?  I am thinking of reducing or eliminating it all together but I do like how the top browns and the crust is tasty (although not sure if that is from the fermentation or the DM.  Remember my previous experience has mostly been same day dough).  How much more can you reduce it from 2g and still have it play a useful role?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on December 08, 2014, 11:56:49 AM
I would suggest you read through this thread carefully for detail, etc..  You will find several postings in which it is concluded that the King Arthur diastatic malt is 5 X stronger than the malt called for in the book.  So, yes, you used too much.  Try using 20% of the recipe amount.

- Mitch
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: dsissitka on December 08, 2014, 12:12:08 PM
I followed his recipe to the T including the 6 min bake time on the top stone and 5 on the bottom.

The times Tony gives aren't very realistic. I cook at 500F on 3/4" cordierite. My pies are done in 5-6 minutes when I use convection, 6-7 when I don't.

I'm not sure how he reached 11-13 11-12 minutes.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: brianb10 on December 08, 2014, 07:45:21 PM
I would suggest you read through this thread carefully for detail, etc..  You will find several postings in which it is concluded that the King Arthur diastatic malt is 5 X stronger than the malt called for in the book.  So, yes, you used too much.  Try using 20% of the recipe amount.

- Mitch

I did.  My second batch of dough with the DM I used only 2g.  I had significantly less burning on the bottom but even after coming out of the oven the bottom continued to brown and had black on it that was not there when it was pulled.  Don't know if the DM contributed to that or it was typical carry over heat.  I'm still curious if using less than 2g would have any benefit or at that level is it even worth it?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on December 08, 2014, 07:57:18 PM
I think you are saying the 9 grams of malt was a match to the recipe which calls for 2% (low diastatic).
So, 2 grams of the KA malt is about 22% of the recommended amount - so then I would conclude this matches the recipe, being 1/5, etc.

Also, this would therefore be about .44 % of the flour.  That is right in line with the KA recommendation for use of their malt.
So, I would say "yes", in that this is the recommended amount and should have the right impact.  It is worth it if you notice a difference - I would guess you should.

Perhaps the burning is just from cooking too long as dsissitka suggested?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Chicago Bob on December 08, 2014, 10:38:54 PM
Why does Tony's recipes need so many adjustments/refining?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on December 08, 2014, 10:51:37 PM
Why does Tony's recipes need so many adjustments/refining?

I am not sure if they do need many (or any) adjustments.  As far as the diastatic malt goes, his recipe was clear and specific - to use low diastatic malt in the recipe in an amount of 2%.  if someone decides to use high diastatic malt, that is an issue of not following the recipe but then, hopefully, adjusting for it by cutting back.

The bake time issue does seem like a needed adjustment.  I am not sure if any other adjustments were needed although some people have made their own changes - that's pretty normal around here.

Make sense?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: pythonic on December 09, 2014, 01:23:36 AM
 :o
Why does Tony's recipes need so many adjustments/refining?

Because they are tailored to his oven.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: drmatt357 on December 09, 2014, 09:50:11 PM
I just received my 5lb. Bag of Low DM from Central Milling. I'll never use this much in two lifetimes. If anyone wants an 8oz. portion, I'll sell it for what I paid. $2 for 8oz and it would be $3 to ship.

Just PM me.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Chicago Bob on December 09, 2014, 11:44:01 PM
I just received my 5lb. Bag of Low DM from Central Milling. I'll never use this much in two lifetimes. If anyone wants an 8oz. portion, I'll sell it for what I paid. $2 for 8oz and it would be about $2 to ship.

Just PM me.
I'd buy it from you if it was something that truly made a performance difference in pizza dough.  :-\
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on December 10, 2014, 02:50:12 PM
Over the last few days, I spent a fair amount of time trying to see if I could reverse engineer the AB Mauri low diastatic malt as described in the document at https://www.dropbox.com/s/431c70sku92j9ml/2614%20Dry%20Malt%20Low%20Diastatic%20BOOKLET.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/431c70sku92j9ml/2614%20Dry%20Malt%20Low%20Diastatic%20BOOKLET.pdf?dl=0). I suspected that this would be a real challenge since I did not have specific information on the three components of their low diastatic malt, including the wheat flour, dextrose and malted barley flour. I wasn't even sure what the proper sequence of those ingredients should be (more on this below).

As part of my exercise, I started by looking at the retail level malted barley flour sold by Bob's Red Mill (http://www.soap.com/p/bobs-red-mill-malted-barley-flour-20-oz-212407 (http://www.soap.com/p/bobs-red-mill-malted-barley-flour-20-oz-212407)) and by Barry Farm (http://www.barryfarm.com/nutri_info/baking%20supplies/barleymalt.html (http://www.barryfarm.com/nutri_info/baking%20supplies/barleymalt.html)). I also looked at the generic nutrition information for barley malt flour at the NutritionData.Self.com website (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5788/2 (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5788/2)) and the spec sheet of the low activity diastatic malt as sold professionally by SAF (http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/sites/default/files/products_files/Tech%20Sheet%20-%20%20RS%20Diastatic%20Malt%2C24000%2C24100%20Rev%202%2C%2009-02-09.pdf (http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/sites/default/files/products_files/Tech%20Sheet%20-%20%20RS%20Diastatic%20Malt%2C24000%2C24100%20Rev%202%2C%2009-02-09.pdf)). After digesting much of this information, and after testing out many possible combinations of the three ingredients mentioned above and not finding a good fit with the AB Mauri nutritional information, I came to the conclusion that there were just too many variations in malted barley flours, or the information was not complete. And, in the case of the SAF nutrition information, a single nutrition format was used for two of the SAF diastatic malts (the 20L and 60L products) so I was unable to separate the two for analysis.

To the above, I might add that it appears that Bob's Red Mill may no longer be offering their malted barley flour product or they may be in the process of restocking it because I could not find the product at the Bob's Red Mill website, only at the websites of companies that sell that product.

Having found myself at a crossroads from an analytical standpoint, I decided to take the more cowardly, but perhaps saner, approach. I decided to call AB Mauri. For this purpose, I used the 800 number that I found in the abovementioned AB Mauri document. At AB Mauri, I was put in touch with a product development specialist by the name of Scott. After explaining the reason for my call, my first question was to find out the correct pecking order of the three ingredients used in the AB Mauri low diastatic malt. I mentioned the discrepancy in that order even in their own documentation. I also mentioned The New York Bakers situation and how they have both the wrong ingredients information and the wrong nutrition information on their labels. When Scott saw the discrepancy I pointed out to him, he thanked me for bringing that to his attention and he said that he would look into it. He also seemed interested in the situation at The New York Bakers.

As for my first question, Scott said that the correct sequence of the three ingredients is wheat flour, dextrose and malted barley, as is shown in their spec sheets. My next question was how much of the total malt product was the malted barley, since this is the enzyme-active component of the product. He replied that he did not know but would look into it and get back to me. Shortly after, he called me back and said that the amount was 25-40%. He added that the range was so wide because of variations in the malted barley that they get from their supplier. Later, after I had hung up the phone, it occurred to me that the actual order of the three diastatic malt ingredients may not be capable of fixing in one sequence because of the variations in the amounts of malted barley. In my opinion, whether Scott knew this or not, that could exempt AB Mauri from listing the ingredients by weight under FDA rules and regulations.

There was not much else that I was able to get out of Scott, for proprietary reasons, although he said the wheat flour used in their product was a basic patent flour but perhaps an inexpensive one since it was only a carrier for the other ingredients. Also, I suspect that its amount would be too small to have an effect on any dough or end product in which the wheat flour would be used.

To apply the above newfound information to the Tony G situation, and using the example where one of his recipes (I believe it is one of the NY dough recipes without a preferment) calls for nine grams of low diastatic malt for 453 grams of flour, or about 2%. Of that nine grams, 2.25-3.6 grams is the malted barley, or 0.50-0.80% on a flour basis. To that, one would add the 0.1-0.2% malt that is typically added by the miller to the flours at their facilities. I don't think I would worry too much about the wide range of the malted barley since most of our members who have purchased the AB Mauri seem to have enough of it to last a lifetime with some left over to bequeath to their heirs.

To determine the merit of using the low diastatic malt as recommended by Tony G, and to quell Chicago Bob's concerns, one might conduct a blind test involving two pizzas that are made identically in all respects as much as possible, but where the dough for one pizza has the low diastatic malt and the other does not, and where the taste testers do not know which crust has the low diastatic malt and which does not. A double blind test might keep even the person who supervises the experiment from knowing which pizza has the low diastatic malt and which does not.

I believe that it is also important to keep in mind that the AB Mauri low diastatic malt also contains dextrose. Dextrose is a form of sugar that is less sweet than table sugar (by about 25%) but it can also contribute to final crust coloration. While I do not know the percent of dextrose used in the AB Mauri product, I believe that the bulk of the Sugars in the AB Mauri analytical information may be due to the dextrose since the amounts of Sugars in wheat flour and malted barley are quite small on a relative basis. But it could well be that the dextrose is a significant contributor to final crust coloration.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: tinroofrusted on December 10, 2014, 04:30:57 PM
I'd buy it from you if it was something that truly made a performance difference in pizza dough.  :-\

Then buy it.  I've been using it for a few weeks now and it definitely makes a performance difference.  In my case, it's a difference that I like a lot. But you may feel otherwise. But it's definitely worth trying. 

Regards,

TinRoof
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: dsissitka on December 10, 2014, 05:17:06 PM
When I contacted AB Mauri about their low diastatic malt they mentioned they offered a few different types of malt. I was curious so I asked for their spec sheets:

DRY MALT LOW DIASTATIC 2614
17-23L
Ingredients: Wheat flour, dextrose, malted barley
Spec Sheet: https://www.dropbox.com/s/431c70sku92j9ml/2614%20Dry%20Malt%20Low%20Diastatic%20BOOKLET.pdf?dl=0

DRY MALT NON-DIASTATIC 2644
Ingredients: Malt, corn
Spec Sheet: https://www.dropbox.com/s/0f775cgrao4phqg/2644%20Dry%20Malt%20Non%20Diastatic%20BOOKLET.pdf?dl=0

DRY MALT 60
56-64L
Ingredients: Malted barley, wheat flour, dextrose
Spec Sheet: https://www.dropbox.com/s/2zq2u0kr24vmipx/2629%20Dry%20Malt%2060%20BOOKLET.pdf?dl=0

According to AB Mauri Dry Malt 60 is the most common used in baking.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: norma427 on December 10, 2014, 06:20:11 PM
If anyone is interested in seeing the other photos and what I posted about the second experimental dough and pizza with the Central Milling low moisture diastatic malt the write up and photos start at Reply 1004  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,30641.msg353262.html#msg353262

In my opinion so far I think the Central Milling low moisture diastatic malt does make a difference in the boardwalk style pizzas.

Norma
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on December 11, 2014, 05:07:39 PM
When I contacted AB Mauri about their low diastatic malt they mentioned they offered a few different types of malt. I was curious so I asked for their spec sheets:

DRY MALT LOW DIASTATIC 2614
17-23L
Ingredients: Wheat flour, dextrose, malted barley
Spec Sheet: https://www.dropbox.com/s/431c70sku92j9ml/2614%20Dry%20Malt%20Low%20Diastatic%20BOOKLET.pdf?dl=0

DRY MALT NON-DIASTATIC 2644
Ingredients: Malt, corn
Spec Sheet: https://www.dropbox.com/s/0f775cgrao4phqg/2644%20Dry%20Malt%20Non%20Diastatic%20BOOKLET.pdf?dl=0

DRY MALT 60
56-64L
Ingredients: Malted barley, wheat flour, dextrose
Spec Sheet: https://www.dropbox.com/s/2zq2u0kr24vmipx/2629%20Dry%20Malt%2060%20BOOKLET.pdf?dl=0

According to AB Mauri Dry Malt 60 is the most common used in baking.
disissitka,

Out of curiosity, I looked at the nutritional analysis for the Malt 60 product and notice that the nutritional analysis for that product, at page 5, is identical to the nutritional analysis for the low diastatic malt product. Since the wheat flour and malted barley are distinct products with fixed nutrient profiles, I wonder how that can be.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: norma427 on December 11, 2014, 06:36:52 PM
Peter,

I don't know how much this is going to help with the low moisture diastatic malt, but I called Central Milling to see if they would give me the Nutritional Analysis for the low moisture diastactic malt they carry.  I talked to Sandy, and first told her I liked the low moisture diastatic malt in my pizza doughs, and how the low moisture diastatic malt gave my pizzas a different look and taste.  I then asked if Sandy knew of any distributors in my area for the low moisture diastatic malt Central Milling carries.  Sandy said she didn't know of any distributors in my area.  I then asked if I could have the Nutritional Analysis for the low moisture malt I purchased.  Sandy said she would have someone else send me the Nutritional Analysis in an email.  I then asked if Central Milling ships the 50 lb. bags.  Sandy said yes they ship all the time.  I then asked her how much a 50 lb. bag would cost.  She told me a 50 lb. bag would cost me 66.07.  I said then there would be shipping charge and I would imagine that would be very high since the shipping on the 5 lb. Bag was a lot.  Sandy agreed with me that the shipping would be a lot on the 50 lb. bag to my area.  I then asked Sandy if Central Milling makes the low moisture malt they carry.  Sandy said no, they get it from a vendor.  I asked Sandy if she could tell me the vendors name so maybe I could get it cheaper in a 50 lb. bag in my area.  Sandy had to check but she told Central Milling gets the low moisture malt from Fleischmanns and rebags for the 5 lb. bags like I purchased.  It makes me wonder why when I look at the Flesichmanns prices for the low diastatic malt it says it is 97.05 for a 50 lb. bag.  http://www.foodservicedirect.com/product.cfm/p/155426/Fleischmanns-Yeast-AB-Mauri-Dry-Malt.htm  Are they both the exact same low moisture malt?  I think by now I am confused.


Norma
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 11, 2014, 06:51:17 PM
disissitka,

Out of curiosity, I looked at the nutritional analysis for the Malt 60 product and notice that the nutritional analysis for that product, at page 5, is identical to the nutritional analysis for the low diastatic malt product. Since the wheat flour and malted barley are distinct products with fixed nutrient profiles, I wonder how that can be.

Peter

I'd think maybe a rounding thing if they didn't take the values out 2 significant digits.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: dsissitka on December 11, 2014, 07:08:42 PM
...low moisture diastactic malt...

Save yourself some keystrokes. It's low diastatic, not low moisture diastatic. :)

Sandy had to check but she told Central Milling gets the low moisture malt from Fleischmanns and rebags for the 5 lb. bags like I purchased.

I was told it's AB Mauri. Makes sense. It turns out AB Mauri owns Fleischmann's.

Edit: Actually, I'm not sure exactly what their relationship is.

Quote from: http://abmna.com/
ABMNA sells yeast under the Fleischmann’s® Yeast brand name.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 11, 2014, 07:17:10 PM
I was told it's AB Mauri. Makes sense. It turns out AB Mauri owns Fleischmann's.

Edit: Actually, I'm not sure exactly what their relationship is.

Associated British Foods owns both AB Mauri and ACH Food Companies (and a bunch of other companies). Fleischmann's is a ACH brand.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on December 11, 2014, 08:47:22 PM
Norma,

I believe that disissitka and Craig answered your questions but if you are still confused, let us know.

An alternative source of a low diastatic (aka low activity) malt is the Red Star unit of Lesaffre that sells a 20 degree Lintner malt product. It is described at http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-drymalt-product-20 (http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-drymalt-product-20). The pecking order for the three components of the product (wheat flour, dextrose and malted barley) is the same as for the AB Mauri low diastatic malt. The nutrient information for the SAF product is also similar to that of the AB Mauri low diastatic malt (see http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/sites/default/files/products_files/Tech%20Sheet%20-%20%20RS%20Diastatic%20Malt%2C24000%2C24100%20Rev%202%2C%2009-02-09.pdf (http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/sites/default/files/products_files/Tech%20Sheet%20-%20%20RS%20Diastatic%20Malt%2C24000%2C24100%20Rev%202%2C%2009-02-09.pdf)). Of course, you may find that the Red Star product is also not available in your area. But it might be worth looking into, including getting a sample of the product if such is available.

Peter

EDIT (4/24/16): For an updated link to the SAF diastatic malt, see: http://www.lsaf.com/sites/default/files/products_files/24000%2C%2024100%2C%20Diastatic%20Malt%2C%2011-07-14_1.pdf

EDIT (11/15/16): For the Wayback Machine version of the above inoperative Red Star 20L link, see http://web.archive.org/web/20160330012616/http://lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-drymalt-product-20; note, also, that there is no replacement for the above general diastatic malt pdf document online, so one may wish to contact Red Star directly.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: norma427 on December 11, 2014, 09:02:05 PM
Save yourself some keystrokes. It's low diastatic, not low moisture diastatic. :)

I was told it's AB Mauri. Makes sense. It turns out AB Mauri owns Fleischmann's.

Edit: Actually, I'm not sure exactly what their relationship is.

Associated British Foods owns both AB Mauri and ACH Food Companies (and a bunch of other companies). Fleischmann's is a ACH brand.

Norma,

I believe that disissitka and Craig answered your questions but if you are still confused, let us know.

An alternative source of a low diastatic (aka low activity) malt is the Red Star unit of Lasaffre that sells a 20 degree Lintner malt product. It is described at http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-drymalt-product-20 (http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-drymalt-product-20). The pecking order for the three components of the product (wheat flour, dextrose and malted barley) is the same as for the AB Mauri low diastatic malt. The nutrient information for the SAF product is also similar to that of the AB Mauri low diastatic malt (see http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/sites/default/files/products_files/Tech%20Sheet%20-%20%20RS%20Diastatic%20Malt%2C24000%2C24100%20Rev%202%2C%2009-02-09.pdf (http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/sites/default/files/products_files/Tech%20Sheet%20-%20%20RS%20Diastatic%20Malt%2C24000%2C24100%20Rev%202%2C%2009-02-09.pdf)). Of course, you may find that the Red Star product is also not available in your area. But it might be worth looking into, including getting a sample of the product if such is available.

Peter

Thanks disissitka, Craig and Peter for explaining.  I understand now.

Norma
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: drmatt357 on December 14, 2014, 09:46:51 PM
I trie my DM this evening. Made 2 batches of dough. The only difference was one had 2%low DM from Central Milling.

I cooked at 525 on a 1/2" steel with broiler on both pies.

The differences to me were very subtle. Some flavor difference. Not better or worse, just slightly different. The main difference I noticed was the DM pie had a light, thin crisp skin. If you look close at the crumb shot, you can see on the second one, a thin crisp she'll almost. Very nice.

I'll continue to use it.

The first 2 pics are NO DM.
The second two have it.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: jvp123 on December 14, 2014, 09:54:53 PM
Matt that looks great to me.  Just to be clear and I've not been following this malt thing THAT closely, but its Diastatic Malt right not Low Diastatic Malt?  Sorry for the dumb question  :-\.  For some reason I thought it was the Low Diastatic Malt that was supposed to be used. 
Best,
Jeff
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: woodmakesitgood on December 14, 2014, 10:03:51 PM
Matt that looks great to me.  Just to be clear and I've not been following this malt thing THAT closely, but its Diastatic Malt right not Low Diastatic Malt?  Sorry for the dumb question  :-\.  For some reason I thought it was the Low Diastatic Malt that was supposed to be used. 
Best,
Jeff

Methinks you can use Diastatic Malt (at lower than 2%) or Low Diastatic Malt (at around 2%),
just don't use any of that no good "non Diastatic Malt".   :chef:
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: drmatt357 on December 14, 2014, 10:32:08 PM
It is LOW diastatic malt. That's what the book recommends. Now some people are trying to figure a way to use regular DM and that may work but to me, it seemed just as easy to use what was in the book.  No need to re-invent the wheel.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: jsaras on December 14, 2014, 11:13:48 PM
Do you think it's possible that the difference in bake could just be within normal variation? Perhaps the plate was a touch cooler from the previous pizza being baked?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: dsissitka on December 15, 2014, 12:37:19 AM
It is LOW diastatic malt. That's what the book recommends.

Where? The ingredients section suggests it doesn't really matter:

Quote from: The Pizza Bible
There are two kinds of malt: diastatic and non-diastatic. Diastatic (sometimes labeled low-diastatic) is the one you want for pizza.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on December 15, 2014, 02:46:48 AM
Where? The ingredients section suggests it doesn't really matter:


Read the book and you'll find the info.

Page 304 for resources on centralmilling.com

Or buy from KA and reduce amount, even though it's not necessary.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: dsissitka on December 15, 2014, 03:33:32 AM
Read the book and you'll find the info.

Page 304 for resources on centralmilling.com

What about it? There's nothing about regular vs low diastatic malt there.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: deb415611 on December 15, 2014, 06:07:46 AM
What about it? There's nothing about regular vs low diastatic malt there.

you quoted it yourself in reply 185 it says "sometimes referred to as low-diastatic) is the one you want for pizza" this is from page 16 of the book.  I believe Norma confirmed it with Tony, can't remember if that is in this thread or one of hers. 

page 304 simply says diastatic malt but it's a where to find page and it is listed as a central milling product which has been confirmed as low diastatic 

Tony should have been clearer on all of this as the home cook does not know that there are different strengths of diastatic malt

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: dsissitka on December 15, 2014, 06:53:51 AM
you quoted it yourself in reply 185 it says "sometimes referred to as low-diastatic) is the one you want for pizza" this is from page 16 of the book.

The quote I posted says you want malt that's labeled diastatic or low diastatic. It doesn't recommend one over the other.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: norma427 on December 15, 2014, 07:58:30 AM
The quote I posted says you want malt that's labeled diastatic or low diastatic. It doesn't recommend one over the other.

dsissitka,

At Reply 21 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34845.msg347123.html#msg347123 is where I posted what Tony told me. 

Norma
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on December 15, 2014, 09:46:23 AM
I agree with the others that the language quoted in Reply 175 in not clear and that Tony and/or his associates should have done a better job specifying the type of diastatic malt to be used, especially since there are several forms of it, not just low and high. The Lintner numbers can go from around 20 to over 200. To me, the language is ambiguous and although Tony has only specifically recommended the low diastatic malt, one might logically conclude that that is the form of diastatic malt he intends be used. But that may not be what he intends. For example, he might allow for a high diastatic malt be used but with a dilution of it, along the lines, for example, as earlier discussed by Mitch after he spoke with King Arthur.

The best and perhaps the only way to resolve the matter once and for all is for someone to ask him if a high diastatic malt or something other than a low diastatic malt is what he intends and can be used.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: norma427 on December 15, 2014, 09:26:19 PM
I agree with the others that the language quoted in Reply 175 in not clear and that Tony and/or his associates should have done a better job specifying the type of diastatic malt to be used, especially since there are several forms of it, not just low and high. The Lintner numbers can go from around 20 to over 200. To me, the language is ambiguous and although Tony has only specifically recommended the low diastatic malt, one might logically conclude that that is the form of diastatic malt he intends be used. But that may not be what he intends. For example, he might allow for a high diastatic malt be used but with a dilution of it, along the lines, for example, as earlier discussed by Mitch after he spoke with King Arthur.

The best and perhaps the only way to resolve the matter once and for all is for someone to ask him if a high diastatic malt or something other than a low diastatic malt is what he intends and can be used.

Peter

Peter,

I asked Tony about the same things you posted in your last post.  This is what Tony replied to me. 

Nothing really to say other than what's in the reference in the back of the book I say Central milling. Here is a direct link now http://centralmilling.com/products/tony-gemignanis-low-diastatic-artisan-malt
 
I then said the AB Mauri malt was the same thing as the Central Milling Malt, and also mentioned the AB Mauri Low Diastatic Malt Powder at The New York Bakers.  I then said I think members of the pizza forum wanted to know whether a higher lintner number malt could be used at a lower percentage in the formulation.

Then Tony replied this to me.

Yes that's the one. What ever is easiest and better for shipping and cheaper. The question that the PM forum is asking from what I read is not what your saying they are asking. The book mentions a low diastatic malt then in the references it says central milling and now you have a link. Speak to Mitch if you want to use KA malt. That's like people asking me how about Colavita flour instead of Caputo and it's a different protein, mill, and wheat and using it in one of my recipes. I don't reference it specifically then I don't recommend it or can speak about it. I have tested 4 Malts and central - AB one is my favorite. That's it thanks

Norma
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Chicago Bob on December 15, 2014, 09:46:19 PM
To me, it sounds like someone is fielding Tony's emails....the language used does not "feel" like the way Tony talks.....of course, YMMV.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: norma427 on December 15, 2014, 10:08:45 PM
To me, it sounds like someone is fielding Tony's emails....the language used does not "feel" like the way Tony talks.....of course, YMMV.

Bob,

I am friends with Tony on facebook.  He usually answers my questions in personal messages.

Norma
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on December 15, 2014, 10:12:54 PM
If you want to use KA Malt, then don't ask me, I got nothin'.......... :-X 

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on December 16, 2014, 09:54:22 AM
Peter,

I asked Tony about the same things you posted in your last post.  This is what Tony replied to me. 

Nothing really to say other than what's in the reference in the back of the book I say Central milling. Here is a direct link now http://centralmilling.com/products/tony-gemignanis-low-diastatic-artisan-malt
 
I then said the AB Mauri malt was the same thing as the Central Milling Malt, and also mentioned the AB Mauri Low Diastatic Malt Powder at The New York Bakers.  I then said I think members of the pizza forum wanted to know whether a higher lintner number malt could be used at a lower percentage in the formulation.

Then Tony replied this to me.

Yes that's the one. What ever is easiest and better for shipping and cheaper. The question that the PM forum is asking from what I read is not what your saying they are asking. The book mentions a low diastatic malt then in the references it says central milling and now you have a link. Speak to Mitch if you want to use KA malt. That's like people asking me how about Colavita flour instead of Caputo and it's a different protein, mill, and wheat and using it in one of my recipes. I don't reference it specifically then I don't recommend it or can speak about it. I have tested 4 Malts and central - AB one is my favorite. That's it thanks

Norma
Norma,

I interpret Tony's remarks to say that he intends that only low diastatic malt be used, having selected it from among four different malt products. Also, from his statement I don't reference it specifically then I don't recommend it or can speak about it, I take that statement to mean that if he doesn't specifically reference a product then he does not recommend it or can speak about it, and that is why he referred you to Mitch with respect to the King Arthur malt product.

I haven't seen anything to say that one should not use a diastatic malt product other than a low diastatic one. But the amount used will have to be tested to determine the best and proper amount. If there is too much, and taking the hydration value into consideration, the dough coming out of the mixer can be overly tacky/sticky as the water is released from the damaged starch on which the diastatic malt works. Also, if there is too much diastatic malt, the finished crust can have a pasty or somewhat underbaked characteristic.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: norma427 on December 16, 2014, 09:28:00 PM
Peter,

I think you are correct that Tony's remarks meant that he intends that only low diastatic malt be used, because he selected it from among four different malt products.  I agree that his statement about Mitch mean I should ask him about using the KA malt product.  I missed Mitch's second post when he spoke to King Arthur about their malt.

Norma
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on January 03, 2015, 12:47:44 PM
I received my copy of Tony's book just before Christmas and I have just started reading it.

My first order of business was to examine more closely the matter of the diastatic malt. In actuality, there is really not a lot in the book about the diastatic malt. Here are the references to the diastatic malt that I have found so far:

1. On page 6 there is a reference to using 9 grams of diastatic malt per pizza. That turns out to be an incorrect amount but there is an errata or correction sheet that comes with the book that makes clear that several of the dough recipes in the book can be used to make more than one pizza. So, I assume that the errata sheet subsumes the erroneous statement about the diastatic malt at page 6.

2. On page 16, there is a discussion of diastatic malt and how it differs from a nondiastatic malt. The discussion makes clear that it is the diastatic malt that is to be used, and that discussion indicates parenthetically that diastatic malt is "sometimes labeled low-diastatic" (more on this below). I should also note that on the bottom of page 16, at the last line of the right hand column of text, there is a reference to page 305. That is a typo. It should be page 304.

3. In all the dough recipes calling for diastatic malt, and for the related instructions, the recitations are only for "diastatic malt", not low-diastatic malt.

4. On page 304 (Sources), under the topic heading Flours, Grains, Malts, and Starters, there is an entry Malt, Diastatic, along with other products from Central Milling. At the end of the listing of those products, the webpage is given for Central Milling (centralmilling.com).

It is not entirely clear from the book alone whether Tony meant to limit the diastatic malt to a low-diastatic malt. I think what created the confusion was the use of the parenthetical statement "sometimes labeled low-diastatic". The problem is that diastatic malt is not always labeled low-diastatic. For example, there are commercial diastatic malts that are labeled "high-diastatic" (or highly active). The latter malts typically have a Lintner number of around 60, whereas the Central Milling diastatic malt (from AB Mauri) has a Lintner number of around 20. But there are purer diastatic malts (without the dextrose/sugar or flour) that can have Lintner numbers in excess of 200. To be fair, I suppose one can adduce from all of the evidence, most notably the reference on the Sources page to Central Milling, that only low-diastatic malt was intended by Tony, since that is the only malt product sold by Central Milling. From what has been posted on ThePizzaBible.com website, it seems that Tony has stated his intention and preference that the malt be low-diastatic. But that is not a conclusion that one would easily arrive at from a normal and proper reading of the book.

In retrospect, I think the ambiguity and confusion that has ensued from the statements about diastatic malt in the book could have been avoided in several ways. For example:

i. If Tony meant and intended that only low-diastatic malt be used, he could have said that flat out, and he could have recited low-diastatic malt in all of the applicable dough recipes and related instructions and also on the Sources page.

ii. If Tony meant and intended that other forms of diastatic malt be used, he could have said so and explained how much would be used, such as a ratio along the lines that Mitch discussed.

iii. Tony could have specified the Lintner numbers for the diastatic malts that he intended be used, if he intended more than one, however this would have required a discussion that he perhaps would not have wanted to entertain because of its highly technical nature and likelihood of confusing readers of the book.

The above matters are important since using too much diastatic malt or the wrong diastatic malt can easily lead to problems with the dough, up to and including failure, which is not a good thing to have happen to people who have purchased the book. 

Peter

 
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 03, 2015, 12:55:15 PM
The above matters are important since using too much diastatic malt or the wrong diastatic malt can easily lead to problems with the dough, up to and including failure, which is not a good thing to have happen to people who have purchased the book. 

But failure is OK for the moochers trying to skim knowledge here without buying the book.  :-D
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on January 03, 2015, 12:59:57 PM
But failure is OK for the moochers trying to skim knowledge here without buying the book.  :-D
LOL. At least here, there is a strong likelihood that the problem can be corrected. Purchasers of the book have to go to ThePizzaBible.com website and beg for help, if they even know to go there.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on January 03, 2015, 01:07:54 PM
Peter:

Notwithstanding the diastatic malt discussion, I hope you are enjoying reading the book.  I like it a lot.

On the malt, I would add this: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,35788.msg356598.html#msg356598
The link to chow.com shows a recipe that is "Reprinted with permission from The Pizza Bible by Tony Gemignani" and seems to recommend the King Arthur diastatic malt.  Go figure, the relative strengths of the malts seem important but I do not really know.

I am gearing up, finally, to try some diastatic malt.  I have my unopened KA bag, expired over a year.  Unless there are worms and spiders in there, I figure it won't hurt but it may not be "strong."  There is also a chance I will take a car ride to their (central milling) store in Petaluma.  It is an hour away - so just far enough away to discourage me from hopping in the car to buy things like flour.

Best,
Mitch

PS Craig.  Yep.  I have steered away from answering questions like "Please provide the recipes in the Pizza Bible book."  I do not think you can copyright a recipe (or it sure is not easy) but it does not seem fair. - M
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on January 03, 2015, 01:39:15 PM
Mitch,

I think I will enjoy the book but it may take me a while to get through the whole thing.

Your citation of the article mentioning the King Arthur diastatic malt leads me to believe that the folks behind Tony's book were sloppy in their handling of the topic in their book and perhaps really didn't know that there were so many versions of diastatic malt. But as far as recipes are concerned, it is very common for authors of cookbooks to release a recipe to the wild for an upcoming book to generate interest in the book. It is true that recipes per se are not protectable under copyright law but the expression of a recipe and instructions, as by copying them verbatim, can be and, in serious cases, might provoke a cease and desist letter. The forum once got a warning from Cooks Illustrated for something that was posted on the forum from one of their publications.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 03, 2015, 01:43:56 PM
I was just poking fun at Peter's post what kind of sounded like success only mattered if you bought the book.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: dsissitka on January 03, 2015, 01:46:50 PM
I get the impression that Tony isn't familiar enough with diastatic malt to have a specific lintner in mind.

So far I haven't noticed a difference between my 20L AB Mauri and, what I'm guessing is, 60L Hoosier Hill Farm but I haven't done any proper testing. I think I'm going to pick up some 100L King Arthur and maybe some 60L AB Mauri, do some proper testing, and draw my own conclusions.

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: norma427 on January 03, 2015, 01:53:29 PM
I posted another of Tony recipes at Reply 1074 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25401.msg344212.html#msg344212  At that time I did not purchase the Pizza Bible, but saw Tony posted a link to it on facebook.  That recipe only says diastatic malt.  If the recipe finder is used other recipes of Tony's are posted there if you use Tony Gemignani as the words in the recipe finder.

Norma 
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on January 03, 2015, 02:12:36 PM
According to Tom Lehmann, the most common diastatic malt is 20 degrees Lintner, and is used in an amount between 0.25 and 0.35% of the total flour weight, not 2%. See Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23057.msg233695/topicseen.html#msg233695 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23057.msg233695/topicseen.html#msg233695). However, that doesn't tell us exactly what the specific ingredients are. In line with Tom's post, especially the part about the 00 flour, I might add that Tony uses diastatic malt with the 00 flour also. There is nothing new to that. I did that years ago when some of us were trying to coax more crust coloration out of 00 doughs baked in a standard home oven.

I forgot to mention that Norma's weighings of the AB Mauri low-diastatic malt sold by Central Milling, as she set them forth in Reply 97 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34845.msg351640.html#msg351640 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34845.msg351640.html#msg351640), appear to be correct. In one of Tony's dough recipes, 9 grams of diastatic malt are said to be equal to one tablespoon.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: jsaras on January 03, 2015, 08:24:18 PM

But failure is OK for the moochers trying to skim knowledge here without buying the book.  :-D

Failure is not an option.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Chicago Bob on January 03, 2015, 09:56:24 PM
I get the impression that Tony isn't familiar enough with diastatic malt to have a specific lintner in mind.


Bingo!!
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on January 04, 2015, 01:34:43 AM
Bingo!!

You know him? Personally?

If so, I'd love to hear what you think of him.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on January 04, 2015, 09:59:43 AM
According to Tom Lehmann, the most common diastatic malt is 20 degrees Lintner, and is used in an amount between 0.25 and 0.35% of the total flour weight, not 2%. See Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23057.msg233695/topicseen.html#msg233695 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23057.msg233695/topicseen.html#msg233695).

The description for the low diastatic malt on the Central Milling website says:

"This is the malt recommended by Tony Gemignani in his new book: The Pizza Bible. This low diastatic malt is made with Malted Barley flour and will increase the enzymatic activity of your dough. It is best to use between 2% and 5% to flour weight."

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: dsissitka on January 04, 2015, 10:21:40 AM
I wonder how time factored in to their recommendations. It looks like all recipes except the one for Romana dough call for the dough to be used 24 to 48 hours after the malt is added.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on January 04, 2015, 10:37:28 AM
Mitch,

As I noted at Reply 178 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34845.msg353492.html#msg353492 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34845.msg353492.html#msg353492), a possible alternative to the Central Milling/AB Mauri low-diastatic malt is the SAF 20 degrees Lintner diastatic malt product as described at http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-drymalt-product-20 (and the related sales and spec sheets). You will note the recommended usage of 0.5-5%. I suppose the range is so wide since there is a wide range of possible end uses for the product. However, the 2% number that CM recommends is not as big as it may sound. As I noted at Reply 169 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34845.msg353229.html#msg353229 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34845.msg353229.html#msg353229), the AB Mauri 20 degrees Lintner product contains about 25-40% malted barley flour. So, for example, for 9 grams of low-diastatic malt for 453 grams of flour in Tony's Master dough Without Starter, the actual amount of malted barley flour is 2.5-3.6 grams, or about 0.55-0.80% by weight of flour. To this range, you would add the contribution (typically about 0.1-0.2%) of any existing malted barley flour in the flour used in the recipe, such as in the All Trumps and other recommended malted flours that can be used in the recipe. This makes the total range about 0.56-1.0%, which does not sound quite so outrageous.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on January 04, 2015, 10:49:30 AM
I wonder how time factored in to their recommendations. It looks like all recipes except the one for Romana dough call for the dough to be used 24 to 48 hours after the malt is added.
dsissitka,

That is a good point. So long as there is damaged starch for the alpha amylase enzyme to work on, there should be increased production of natural sugars to feed the yeast and leave something left over (residual sugars) for crust color development. The fermentation temperatures should also be a factor. But even accounting for these factors, before you even get to them, the active component of the diastatic malt can adversely affect the dough, as by making the dough wet, sticky, overly extensible and even unmanageable. For this to happen, the amount of diastatic malt has to be excessive for the particular dough being made. Some might try to compensate for these conditions by adding more flour, either at the time the dough is being made, or on the bench, or later when forming into skins, but these measures might lead to a finished product that is not as is intended by the recipe. As an example, flour added to the dough at the time of forming into skins, especially if a fair amount is used beyond just coating the dough balls, is flour that did not go through the fermentation process. That flour can end up in the form of a bitter crust.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on January 04, 2015, 11:34:29 AM
Mitch,

As I noted at Reply 178 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34845.msg353492.html#msg353492 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34845.msg353492.html#msg353492), a possible alternative to the Central Milling/AB Mauri low-diastatic malt is the SAF 20 degrees Lintner diastatic malt product as described at http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-drymalt-product-20 (and the related sales and spec sheets). You will note the recommended usage of 0.5-5%. I suppose the range is so wide since there is a wide range of possible end uses for the product. However, the 2% number that CM recommends is not as big as it may sound. As I noted at Reply 169 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34845.msg353229.html#msg353229 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34845.msg353229.html#msg353229), the AB Mauri 20 degrees Lintner product contains about 25-40% malted barley flour. So, for example, for 9 grams of low-diastatic malt for 453 grams of flour in Tony's Master dough Without Starter, the actual amount of malted barley flour is 2.5-3.6 grams, or about 0.55-0.80% by weight of flour. To this range, you would add the contribution (typically about 0.1-0.2%) of any existing malted barley flour in the flour used in the recipe, such as in the All Trumps and other recommended malted flours that can be used in the recipe. This makes the total range about 0.56-1.0%, which does not sound quite so outrageous.

Peter

I had not contemplated the possibility that Tom was referencing "pure" malt which is diluted within the diastatic malt product.  I got no clue of that from Tom's statement about "Most diastatic malt preparations" in the guidance he was providing.  I was inferring either a simple, experience based,  difference of opinion; or, that he did not think of pizza in the same way as others may think of bread dough in terms of ingredient level.

I guess for the purposes of Pizza Bible recipes, etc. the reccomendation from Tony is what it is - 2% if you are baking below 650.  Although I would not want anyone inferring I am the source of knowledge for KA diastatic malt (even though Tony referred people to me  :o ), I will still hypothesize that about 20% of the 2% (0.4%) is probably about right for that product.

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on January 04, 2015, 01:25:33 PM
Mitch,

To be a bit more technically precise, the percent of diastatic malt in the low-diastatic malt in relation to the total formula flour is a bit less than I reported in my last post since the low-diastatic malt product contains wheat flour. So, if you add the amount of wheat flour in the low-diastatic malt product to the 453 grams in the aforementioned recipe, the percent of diastatic malt in the recipe goes down a small amount (but not enough to make a difference). Also, there is a slug of dextrose in the low-diastatic malt product that should contribute to final crust coloration also. There are 39 grams of Sugars in 100 grams of the AB Mauri low-diastatic malt, and I would say that most of the Sugars are from the dextrose since there is minuscule amounts of Sugars in the wheat flour and the malted barley flour.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Chicago Bob on January 04, 2015, 01:27:32 PM
You know him? Personally?

If so, I'd love to hear what you think of him.
No, I don't know him personally but I like him. I think people are perhaps expecting or assuming too much(like lintner values)out of Tony, and whoever else was involved in shaping the book, in these discussions about the diastatic malt.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on January 04, 2015, 03:18:30 PM
Mitch,

To be a bit more technically precise, the percent of diastatic malt in the low-diastatic malt in relation to the total formula flour is a bit less than I reported in my last post since the low-diastatic malt product contains wheat flour. So, if you add the amount of wheat flour in the low-diastatic malt product to the 453 grams in the aforementioned recipe, the percent of diastatic malt in the recipe goes down a small amount (but not enough to make a difference). Also, there is a slug of dextrose in the low-diastatic malt product that should contribute to final crust coloration also. There are 39 grams of Sugars in 100 grams of the AB Mauri low-diastatic malt, and I would say that most of the Sugars are from the dextrose since there is minuscule amounts of Sugars in the wheat flour and the malted barley flour.

Peter

Thanks Peter.  What I certainly had not thought about was the sugar (dextrose) aspect.  At 2% of total flour and 39 grams per 100, then the sugar add to the recipe is 0.78% + - not trivial.

Given the dosing of the 100 Lintner (KA) malt is (likely) so much lower, the sugar there is trivial.

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Matthew on January 04, 2015, 07:14:50 PM
The DM that I picked up has a litner rating of 185-220.  I have used it @.5% with no success at all. I end up with a very gummy dough.  I also tried it in Romana dough & it was terrible.

Matt
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on January 04, 2015, 07:23:31 PM
The DM that I picked up has a litner rating of 185-220.  I have used it @.5% with no success at all. I end up with a very gummy dough.  I also tried it in Romana dough & it was terrible.

Matt

Very sorry to hear it - I hope it did not ruin things too much for you.

Any chance of you being willing to continue to try?  The Lintner rating on yours (what brand is it by the way?) is 10 X the rating on the low diastatic malt @20.  You used 25% of the recommended amount (0.5% vs. 2.0%).  Continuing with my belief (along with some research I did) that it is all proportional the more aligned amount would have been 10% of the 2%, being 0.2%. 

Let us know.

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: jvp123 on January 04, 2015, 08:06:14 PM
The times Tony gives aren't very realistic. I cook at 500F on 3/4" cordierite. My pies are done in 5-6 minutes when I use convection, 6-7 when I don't.

I'm not sure how he reached 11-13 11-12 minutes.

 ^^^
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on January 05, 2015, 12:00:13 AM
No, I don't know him personally but I like him. I think people are perhaps expecting or assuming too much(like lintner values)out of Tony, and whoever else was involved in shaping the book, in these discussions about the diastatic malt.

You sure you like him? Your recent posts have indicated otherwise. Might be wrong, tho.

Either way, I have met him on several occasions and he's a guy that lives, breathes and dreams all things pizza. He's very easy to talk to and offers advice whenever help is needed. I think Norma can vouch for that since she's seen it on FB.

I went to his place in North Beach here in SF and he took me on a little tour through his kitchen, several ovens and flours. TG is one of the nicest, well-meaning, passionate guys I have met when it comes to pizza and helping others with their own respective pizzas.

Regarding the DM issues, if one uses his/her brain and looks at the sources, which are also found on the thepizzabible.com, the malt he recommends is a low-diastatic from Central Milling. And that should be it and end the discussion.

The only issue I see is that he failed to go a little deeper into the subject of malt, its effect on doughs, low or high DM. Then again, this book is for homebakers, novices and pros alike...so why confuse the population even further?

Only here on the PM boards are things getting too technical to the point of being almost ridiculous, i.e. using a rounded up number of 3 grams of ADY as the supposed 2.63 grams. The increased 0.27 micros have no impact on the outcome of a dough whatsoever.

Too much mathematical & theoretical assumption is counter productive. Talk and listen to the people who do it for a living and retire those theoretical things altogether since every one who makes a dough experiences different environmental and ambient circumstances, not to mention mixer issues, handling, dough management, fridge temps...need more? It's all speculation, there's no fool proof dough formula that works for everyone, not even the ones in a "cookbook".

Remember the Tartine book? 'nuff said.

And Peter, noone is left "begging" for help on his website. TG is actually very good at answering most, if not all, of the questions or as many as he can. Maybe you should check him out on Facebook.

He's busy, unlike us, who have time to sit in front of a comp all day and dish out advice or post cute pics of pizzas like these below...

Detroit Red Top...Pepperoni & sausage.



Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Matthew on January 05, 2015, 04:34:50 AM
Very sorry to hear it - I hope it did not ruin things too much for you.

Any chance of you being willing to continue to try?  The Lintner rating on yours (what brand is it by the way?) is 10 X the rating on the low diastatic malt @20.  You used 25% of the recommended amount (0.5% vs. 2.0%).  Continuing with my belief (along with some research I did) that it is all proportional the more aligned amount would have been 10% of the 2%, being 0.2%. 

Let us know.


I may mess around with it for a bit longer & see what happens.  I am not sure that I really need it anyway as I am using a high temperature pizza oven.  The brand that I am using is from a local mill that I purchase my flour from.


Matt
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on January 05, 2015, 08:54:19 AM
dsissitka and Jeff,

I believe that I have a plausible explanation for the roughly 11-minute bake time that Tony discusses in his book.

Consider, first, that at page 29 of his book, Tony says to use two pizza stones (or steel plates), with one of the stones being placed on an oven rack that is in the top third of the oven and the other stone being placed on an oven rack at the lowest rung. He also says to preheat the oven to a temperature of 500 degrees F for at least an hour. I have had a fair amount of experience using the two stone method, most notably when I tried to replicate the way that Mellow Mushroom bakes its pizzas in Montague ovens that have top and bottom stones, and I can report that an hour at an oven temperature of around 500 degrees F in my non-convection oven is not enough to heat the stones to that temperature. It takes quite a while longer. In my case, one of the stones is a Cordierite stone (14 1/2" x 16 1/2" x 3/4", with feet) that I usually place on the lowest oven rack position, and where I start the bake, and the second stone is a Fibrament stone (13" x 17" x 1/2") that I place on the upper rack and where I finish the bake after moving the pizza from the bottom stone to the top stone. I could reverse the baking sequence, and have tried that on a few occasions, but my normal practice is to start on the bottom stone and finish on the top stone.

Second, in preparation for baking the pizza, Tony says (at page 34) to open the oven and pull out the top rack and deposit the dressed pizza onto the stone. He allows for a few seconds to check the shape of the pizza and make any necessary adjustments. Some time ago, on one of Norma's visits to a MM store, she inquired about the MM bake times and other oven related matters and reported as follows on those matters:

I asked about the temperature of the ovens, and the one pie maker wasn’t sure, but he did look and said the temperature was 500 degrees F.  I remember thinking I wondered how long their pies take to bake.  I did later time the bake of 4 pies.  They were only 10” pies.  I asked the pie makers how long the pies do take to bake and how they know when the pies are finished baking.  They said the pies take around 10 to 15 minutes to bake.  I later confirmed that was about the times the 10” pies took to bake.  The pie maker said that it all depends on how often the oven doors are open and how many pies are baking at a time.  He said each time the oven door is opened the oven loses about 50 degrees in heat. (Reply 449 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg157665/topicseen.html#msg157665 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg157665/topicseen.html#msg157665)).

On one of my more recent visits to a MM store in Florida, I was told that I could expect a bake time approaching 15 minutes in a home oven at a recommended temperature of around 400 degrees F (Reply 2062 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg352127.html#msg352127 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg352127.html#msg352127)).

Finally, at page 36, after setting a timer for 6 minutes, Tony suggests that one take a peek at the baking pizza after about 2-3 minutes, mostly to check for unwanted bubbling of the crust. After the elapse of the 6 minutes, Tony then says to rotate the pizza 180 degrees and move the pizza from the bottom stone to the center of the top stone. The timer is then set for 5 minutes.

Clearly, each of the openings of the oven door as suggested by Tony results in a loss of oven heat. Combined with the use of two stones that are most likely below 500 degrees F, a total bake time of around 11 minutes would not be unreasonable. As I see it, the long bake time most likely gives the increased sugar levels from using the low-diastatic malt, together with the dextrose in the low-diastatic malt, more opportunity to contribute to final crust coloration, texture and taste.

Finally, I should note that when I have baked MM clone pizzas using just one stone, at the lowest oven rack position and at around 500 degrees F, the bake time is around 7 minutes.

Peter

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on January 05, 2015, 09:02:33 AM

He's busy, unlike us, who have time to sit in front of a comp all day and dish out advice or post cute pics of pizzas like these below...

Detroit Red Top...Pepperoni & sausage.


Great points and NICE pie, Mike.  A good example of a picture saying a 1,000 words!

You know, however, some of those holes in the crumb are 1.03567 millimeters in diameter.  I would have thought that, with Tony's approach, the holes would have been at least 1.10251 (rounded off) millimeters.   Tsk tsk :-D

PS as described, our awesome moderators are busy enough already.....others of us do have more spare time.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: JD on January 05, 2015, 09:15:49 AM
I've never had a Detroit pizza in my life so I haven't been interested in that style, but that one looks pretty amazing.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: dsissitka on January 05, 2015, 09:50:29 AM
Regarding the DM issues, if one uses his/her brain and looks at the sources, which are also found on the thepizzabible.com, the malt he recommends is a low-diastatic from Central Milling.

The problem is that can't be deduced from the book alone. The book:

 - Lists Central Milling as a source for diastatic malt.
 - Says that you want malt that's labeled diastatic or low diastatic.

20L and 60L Central Milling fit that description and Tony didn't start recommending 20L Central Milling until after the book was published. Hopefully now that he offers his own malt he'll recommend it in the book and this will all be over.

On a related note, I really, really wish he would've made his malt available in smaller quantities. If its spec sheet is right and it really does have a shelf life of 6 months I can't imagine any home user using 5 lbs before it expires.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: norma427 on January 05, 2015, 10:00:17 AM

He's very easy to talk to and offers advice whenever help is needed. I think Norma can vouch for that since she's seen it on FB.


Mike,

I can vouch for what you posted about Tony since I have seen what he posts on facebook.  I agree that Tony is very easy to talk to, and offers advice whenever Tony's friends ask.  Don't you think that since Tony is used to using professional ingredients that might be why there is the low diastatic mix up?  Maybe Tony, or the people that helped him with his “Pizza Bible” book didn't think about there being so many different lintner numbers in diastatic malts.  I searched on the web about Tony giving pizza recipes with using malt before his “Pizza Bible” book came out.  This is one recipe I found, in Pizza Today, and it does include malt, but it doesn't say what kind of malt to use.  http://www.pizzatoday.com/departments/in-the-kitchen/2013-march-respecting-the-craft/ Tony also goes on to say in the article that those are the two dough recipes he gives to each student on the first day of instruction at the International School of Pizza in San Francisco.  Tony also mentions that when each student goes back to their respective kitchens and restaurants, it is up to them to decide if the recipe needs changed in any way.  He says each student generally finds is that, yes, every recipe has to be altered.  There is no magic recipe that exists that never needs to be changed.  Tony goes on to say other things if the article is read.

In my opinion that is about the same thing as here on the forum, in that someone can post a formulation and all what methods they use, and their oven and set up, but in the end not all of the members that try can produce the same pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on January 06, 2015, 04:42:40 PM
As a follow-up to my last post at Reply 223 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34845.msg357936.html#msg357936 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,34845.msg357936.html#msg357936), I found the following posts by Tony G at ThePizzaBible.com on the matter of use of stones/steel in home ovens:

I like to go as high as possible. So I prefer 550 but the reason why we say 500 in the book is because most if the populations home ovens only go to 500 so we set that as the bar. Best of luck and thanks for the questions. (http://www.thepizzabible.com/posts/stone-and-steel (http://www.thepizzabible.com/posts/stone-and-steel))

I prefer to preheat my stone at least 45 minutes ahead or even longer. I like the 2 stone or baking steel method so you have two surfaces to cook on for the ultimate bake. One on the upper rack and the other on the bottom rack position. Pay attention to your oven because several home ovens cycle differently. If your oven is on too long sometimes it may cycle off (this protects the oven from over heating itself and is a safety mechanism) so be aware of your oven and make sure it's good and hot. It's important to really have a hot surface. Surface heat is one thing but getting your stones or steels nice and hot in the inside is really valuable especially when cooking multiple pizzas. So the longer pre heat the better. We call this recovery heat. Another trick is pre heating your oven for an hour then putting your broiler on for 10 minutes then putting your oven back on bake or convection bake for 10 minutes and then start cooking. This will really get the surface hot. You may want to experiment with this technique a couple times to get it right. Best of luck. (http://www.thepizzabible.com/posts/how-long-should-i-let-my-oven-stone-heat-preheat (http://www.thepizzabible.com/posts/how-long-should-i-let-my-oven-stone-heat-preheat)).

Going to high temperatures is likely to affect how the sugars from the diastatic malt, and also the dextrose, will impact crust coloration. So it pays to monitor how the crust bakes up.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: MrH on January 13, 2015, 11:09:09 AM
I think I just screwed up, but I wonder how badly. I tried the master recipe without starter but I didn't have any malt so I omitted it, how much will this hurt my dough? I'm now worried I should have used sugar instead but it's too late now.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on January 13, 2015, 11:13:34 AM
I think I just screwed up, but I wonder how badly. I tried the master recipe without starter but I didn't have any malt so I omitted it, how much will this hurt my dough? I'm now worried I should have used sugar instead but it's too late now.
MrH,

I don't think I would worry about it, especially if you are using a flour that is already malted. Your results may not be the same as Tony's but they can still be good.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 13, 2015, 11:20:18 AM
It won't "hurt" your dough at all. It might change it - or you might not even notice a difference. When it's ready, bake it up and see what you think - then if you try it again with the DM, you will start to get a sense how it affects your dough. You don't need DM to make great pizza.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: MrH on January 13, 2015, 12:59:13 PM
Thanks guys, that puts my mind at ease. The dough looks and feels really nice at this early stage. I will ball it up tomorrow as instructed and I'll use it on Thursday and post the results.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: MrH on January 13, 2015, 07:25:50 PM
Me again, I have looked everywhere and I can't find anywhere that sells diastatic malt powder in the UK so I'm wondering if you can just substitute it with sugar? If so, how much sugar for 9g of dmp?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on January 13, 2015, 07:46:09 PM
Me again, I have looked everywhere and I can't find anywhere that sells diastatic malt powder in the UK so I'm wondering if you can just substitute it with sugar? If so, how much sugar for 9g of dmp?
MrH,

You might try getting in touch with British Diamalt, at http://www.diamalt.co.uk/diastatic.htm (http://www.diamalt.co.uk/diastatic.htm), to see if they can recommend a source for their diastatic malt products, especially the 20L product. Many beer supply houses sell diastatic malt products.

Otherwise, I would just use sugar in your dough in accordance with whatever dough recipe you use. Sugar is not an essential ingredient in pizza doughs and is usually added to get a deeper crust coloration, sweetness in the finished crust or to feed yeast for doughs that are to be fermented for extended periods of time. I am not aware of any conversion of diastatic malt to ordinary sugar.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: tinroofrusted on January 13, 2015, 07:52:48 PM
As Peter said, try a home brew store. The malt sugar that they sell for brewing beer should be what you want.  You can use regular cane sugar but it won't have the same effect as diastatic malt. 
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: MrH on January 14, 2015, 04:24:44 PM
Think I found a site that sells it, is this the right stuff? http://bakerybits.co.uk/diax-diastatic-malt-flour.html
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on January 14, 2015, 04:53:36 PM
Think I found a site that sells it, is this the right stuff? http://bakerybits.co.uk/diax-diastatic-malt-flour.html
MrH,

Yes, that seems to be the right stuff. However, since the ingredients list at the bottom of the page you cited says that the product is "Malted flour", without anything else (like flour and dextrose), that would suggest the "pure" stuff with a Lintner value that is most likely around 200, give or take. So, you will want to follow the instructions as to use of the product. You can always scale up later if your results suggest doing so.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on January 14, 2015, 05:11:32 PM
MrH,

After my last post, I went back to the website you referenced and under the question section, I found the following Q and A:

Is this pure diastatic malt, or is it blended with other flour? I ask because pure diastatic malt is typically used at 1g/kg of flour, rather than 5-10g/kg as recommended here. If so, what flour is used, and what is the ratio of diastatic malt to flour? T

The diax is 100% diax, not blended with anything else and is intended to be used at 0.5-1%.


Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on January 15, 2015, 10:12:50 AM
MrH,

According to this document I found at the Bakery Bits website, at http://bakerybits.co.uk/downloads/dl/file/id/113/product/632/diax_datasheet.pdf (http://bakerybits.co.uk/downloads/dl/file/id/113/product/632/diax_datasheet.pdf), the Diax diastatic malt has a degrees Lintner value of 120-180.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: MrH on January 15, 2015, 01:51:55 PM
You're going way over my head friend, it's all jargon to me. Could you dumb it down for me? The recipe calls for 9g of the malt, would I just use 9g of the product I linked? Thanks for bearing with me :)
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on January 15, 2015, 02:03:04 PM
You're going way over my head friend, it's all jargon to me. Could you dumb it down for me? The recipe calls for 9g of the malt, would I just use 9g of the product I linked? Thanks for bearing with me :)
MrH,

I suggest that you use the recommended amount of 0.5-1% of the flour weight. So, for example, if Tony G's recipe calls for 453 grams of flour, you would use 0.5-1% of that, or 2.3-4.5 grams of the Diax diastatic malt. You can always adjust the amount of the Diax product based on your results.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: MrH on January 15, 2015, 02:10:57 PM
Thanks for all the help, I've ordered the malt and can't wait to try it next week.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: The Dough Doctor on January 15, 2015, 11:33:38 PM
Here's my hat in the ring too.
Diastatic malt is the malt used by most bakers because the alpha amylase enzymes contained in it hydrolize damaged and some native (intact) starch granules into sugar to support yeast fermentation and aide in crust color development. Think of it as a cheap source of sugar. Nondiastatic malt is not enzyme active, hence its only function is as a flavoring agent (think malted milk balls) and a source of sugar/sweetener but to achieve these goals the nondiastatic malt must be used at significantly higher levels than diastatic malt. In all of my work with Caputo and organic (unmalted) flours we have found that the dough handles better and colors up better when we have added diastatic malt to the dough. This is especially so when baking in a home type oven where we don't have the temperature potential to develop the desired crust color within a reasonable baking time.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on January 16, 2015, 12:21:13 AM
Here's my hat in the ring too.
Diastatic malt is the malt used by most bakers because the alpha amylase enzymes contained in it hydrolize damaged and some native (intact) starch granules into sugar to support yeast fermentation and aide in crust color development. Think of it as a cheap source of sugar. Nondiastatic malt is not enzyme active, hence its only function is as a flavoring agent (think malted milk balls) and a source of sugar/sweetener but to achieve these goals the nondiastatic malt must be used at significantly higher levels than diastatic malt. In all of my work with Caputo and organic (unmalted) flours we have found that the dough handles better and colors up better when we have added diastatic malt to the dough. This is especially so when baking in a home type oven where we don't have the temperature potential to develop the desired crust color within a reasonable baking time.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Thanks, Tom, for the clarification.

Tony Gemignani has been telling me the exact same thing when I talked to him about the use of DMP. He's been using it for many years in his doughs and apparently it's is a common use among professional pizza makers but not mentioned very often.

It certainly helped my doughs, though, without adding sugar.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 16, 2015, 12:41:10 AM
apparently it's is a common use among professional pizza makers but not mentioned very often.

Will Tony share some names?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on January 16, 2015, 10:20:13 AM
I don't recall offhand what Tony might have said outside of the four corners of his book The Pizza Bible about pizza operators use of diastatic malt, but in the book, at page 16, this is what Tony says:

Malt is sometimes called the European baker's secret because it's frequently used in doughs for breads and other baked goods there. It's also a wonderful secret ingredient for baking pizzas in conventional home oven, which can't reach the temperatures of a pizzeria oven.

I also did a search on "malt" at the ThePizzaBible forum (http://www.thepizzabible.com/searches?utf8=%E2%9C%93&query=malt (http://www.thepizzabible.com/searches?utf8=%E2%9C%93&query=malt)) and did not find any references to use of diastatic malt by professional pizza operators. I have not looked at Facebook or anywhere else so I can't comment on whether such a connection is made there.

What is important to keep in mind is that Tony suggests using 2% diastatic malt such as the AB Mauri low-diastatic malt with a degrees 20 Lintner value. What Tom has said is true but even he does not recommend 2% for a 20L product. See, for example, Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,36090.msg359439/topicseen.html#msg359439 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,36090.msg359439/topicseen.html#msg359439) and Reply 41 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22942.msg246653.html#msg246653 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22942.msg246653.html#msg246653). I'd be curious to get Tom's take on using 2% of a 20L diastatic malt. At the same time, I note that Red Star, which also makes a 20L low activity malt, has a recommended usage of 0.5-5%, although that range is not specified for a particular type of dough, such as pizza dough (see http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-drymalt-product-20 (http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-drymalt-product-20)).

Peter

EDIT (11/15/16): For the Wayback Machine version of the above inoperative Red Star link, see http://web.archive.org/web/20160330012616/http://lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-drymalt-product-20
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 19, 2015, 01:27:59 PM
The apparent fact that adding DM is all but unheard of in serious pizzerias speaks volumes.

To the folks who don't think I will ever admit being wrong, I was wrong about diastatic malt in NY-style pizza. It has it's place.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: jsaras on December 19, 2015, 05:47:26 PM
I like it at 1.5% for pan pizzas and it made a fine emergency dough at 0.25%. 
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on December 19, 2015, 06:36:52 PM
To the folks who don't think I will ever admit being wrong, I was wrong about diastatic malt in NY-style pizza. It has it's place.
Craig,

I assume that you condone the use of diastatic malt but that it has to be the right product used in the proper amount. So, for example, because someone uses 2% LDM doesn't mean that you can use 2% pure diastatic malt.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on December 19, 2015, 06:39:44 PM
To the folks who don't think I will ever admit being wrong, I was wrong about diastatic malt in NY-style pizza. It has it's place.

You know, Peter, he never really said exactly where that place was........... :-D
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on December 19, 2015, 06:49:10 PM
You know, Peter, he never really said exactly where that place was........... :-D

 :-D
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 19, 2015, 10:43:06 PM
Yes, I chose those words carefully.  ;D
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 19, 2015, 10:52:33 PM
Craig,

I assume that you condone the use of diastatic malt but that it has to be the right product used in the proper amount. So, for example, because someone uses 2% LDM doesn't mean that you can use 2% pure diastatic malt.

Peter

Yes, of course. Like Caputo or anything else, it's not magic, it has to be use properly, but when it is, it's pretty darn impressive. The 5 hour RT dough I've been making with it is as good or better than any 2 day refrigerated dough I've made - any refrigerated dough I've made period for that matter.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: hotsawce on January 19, 2016, 02:09:07 AM
Is anyone liking the LDMP for cold ferments (24 to 48 hours?) Any negative effects of using 2% and cold fermenting for this period of time? In Tony's book, he recommends 2% and this cold ferment but I see Craig is using this amount for a much shorter fermentation window.

I did use LDMP from Amazon, but didn't love that particular make. I may play around with the AB Mauri brand and give it another shot based on the feedback I'm seeing here.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on January 19, 2016, 06:05:50 AM
I do not have easy access to L-DMP. Is there a big difference between it and the dark, sticky maltose syrup?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 19, 2016, 06:45:21 AM
I do not have easy access to L-DMP. Is there a big difference between it and the dark, sticky maltose syrup?

They syrup is not enzymatically active which is the point of DMP. You can get it here: http://nybakers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=60
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on January 19, 2016, 06:49:52 AM
I live overseas and cannot get it. I appreciate the link.

So far this is all I have access to and I have no clue if it is any good at all or even the correct thing. I notice it doesn't specify "low" in it at all.

Forgive my ignorance but what exactly does the active enzymes add? Is it the same idea of the lactic acids and amylase enzymes? Which enzyme(s) does it add?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 19, 2016, 06:59:38 AM
I live overseas and cannot get it. I appreciate the link.

So far this is all I have access to and I have no clue if it is any good at all or even the correct thing. I notice it doesn't specify "low" in it at all.

Forgive my ignorance but what exactly does the active enzymes add? Is it the same idea of the lactic acids and amylase enzymes? Which enzyme(s) does it add?

That's the right thing. "Low" just means lower enzymatic activity. If it's not low, you can simply use less.

The enzyme it adds in amylase.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on January 19, 2016, 07:10:02 AM
Thanks! Much better understanding of it now. I've been using the syrup stuff for bagels.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: vtsteve on January 19, 2016, 10:42:49 AM
They syrup is not enzymatically active which is the point of DMP.

I've got a 5 gallon pail of 20oL [low diastatic] malt syrup. It's not all ND.  http://www.maltproducts.com/products.malt.html (http://www.maltproducts.com/products.malt.html)
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: hotsawce on January 19, 2016, 11:13:00 AM
Interesting. I was making a chefsteps recipe for brioche which calls for the addition of amalyse

That's the right thing. "Low" just means lower enzymatic activity. If it's not low, you can simply use less.

The enzyme it adds in amylase.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 19, 2016, 07:34:15 PM
I've got a 5 gallon pail of 20oL [low diastatic] malt syrup. It's not all ND.  http://www.maltproducts.com/products.malt.html (http://www.maltproducts.com/products.malt.html)

You're right. I assumed he was referring to the Eden Barley Malt Syrup.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: enchant on January 30, 2016, 11:15:21 AM
I'd like to see how diastatic malt affects my dough.  Looking through this post (and others), I don't see an overwhelming favorite brand.  I understand that different people will have differing opinions about what is best regarding anything, but what's a good brand to start with?  At amazon, if I search for "diastatic malt powder", there are a ton of options.  If I choose something with prime shipping, I'd have it in time for this week's pie.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 30, 2016, 12:10:20 PM
This is what Mike (Essen1) and I, and I think Chau (Jackie Tran) are using:

http://nybakers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=60
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jackie Tran on January 30, 2016, 12:38:06 PM
I just made pizza using Central Milling's LDM for the first time and was rather impressed with it.  I used 1% (of the flour weight) on a dough that bulk fermented for 8 hours at RT and then 31 hours at cooler temps. It made one of the best pies I've made in awhile.  I noticed the added color to the crust as well as it giving the crust an overall added crunch.  I'm not sure about flavor until I can test it on an emergency 6-8 hr dough. My initial thinking is that 2% may be too high for a long RT fermentation of 20 hrs plus.  But if you intended to do the majority of your fermentation cold, then I suspect it would be okay.  At RT I did witness the dough get much softer and a bit tackier over the 8 hrs, even at just 1%.  But did not note these changes while it was cold fermenting for the duration of the 31 hours.  I'm definitely a believer and will be using it from here on out. 

Big shout out to Tony G and the members who have used it and posted on the forum about their experiences.  Too many of you guys to list but you know who you are.  And thanks to member drmatt357 for sending me some of his stash. 
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on January 30, 2016, 01:11:12 PM
Does anyone know the shelf life?

I bought mine from Central Milling about a year ago.  It comes in a black sealed bag and I have kept it at room temperature.  It would be a shame to dump it since it came in a 5 pound bag and I have used an ounce or two.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: jvp123 on January 30, 2016, 01:16:49 PM
This is what Mike (Essen1), I, and I think Chau (Jackie Tran) are using:

http://nybakers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=60

I use that too.  Just ordered my 2nd bag.  Took over a year to work through the first one.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on January 30, 2016, 01:50:19 PM
I'd like to see how diastatic malt affects my dough.  Looking through this post (and others), I don't see an overwhelming favorite brand.  I understand that different people will have differing opinions about what is best regarding anything, but what's a good brand to start with?  At amazon, if I search for "diastatic malt powder", there are a ton of options.  If I choose something with prime shipping, I'd have it in time for this week's pie.
Pat,

If you read this thread, and assuming that you are not an expert in diastatic malt, you will most likely get quite confused. A good part of the reason is that most people do not know that there are many forms of diastatic malt, each with its own degree of effect on the final dough. This means that you have to learn about degrees Lintner and other esoterica in order to be able to determine which brand to use and in what amount. Also, there are a lot of errors in the recitation of the ingredients that go into each brand of diastatic malt and the order of the ingredients. And this is by professionals. As best I can tell, unless the producers are selling to the general public and having to use Nutrition Facts labels and official ingredients lists, they don't have to comply with the FDA rules and regulations on the subject. And I can assure you that the FDA is not looking at these things. They are more worried about people keeling over sick and dying rather than someone's pizza dough that turns out wet and soggy because they used the wrong type or amount of diastatic malt.

In Tony G's case, he uses a specific type and brand of diastatic malt to use in his recipes. So long as users follow his recipes and instructions as written and do not freelance by using whatever diastatic malt they might have in their pantry or order up without knowing exactly what they are ordering, they should be OK as far as diastatic malt performance is concerned.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: enchant on January 30, 2016, 01:53:55 PM
Good info, Peter!  Thanks for taking the time.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on January 30, 2016, 04:53:24 PM
This is what Mike (Essen1) and I, and I think Chau (Jackie Tran) are using:

http://nybakers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=60

That's correct. It's also the same malt Central Milling and TG are selling. It's good stuff.  ;D
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on January 30, 2016, 05:02:00 PM
I just made pizza using Central Milling's LDM for the first time and was rather impressed with it.  I used 1% (of the flour weight) on a dough that bulk fermented for 8 hours at RT and then 31 hours at cooler temps. It made one of the best pies I've made in awhile.  I noticed the added color to the crust as well as it giving the crust an overall added crunch.  I'm not sure about flavor until I can test it on an emergency 6-8 hr dough. My initial thinking is that 2% may be too high for a long RT fermentation of 20 hrs plus.  But if you intended to do the majority of your fermentation cold, then I suspect it would be okay.  At RT I did witness the dough get much softer and a bit tackier over the 8 hrs, even at just 1%.  But did not note these changes while it was cold fermenting for the duration of the 31 hours.  I'm definitely a believer and will be using it from here on out. 

Big shout out to Tony G and the members who have used it and posted on the forum about their experiences.  Too many of you guys to list but you know who you are.  And thanks to member drmatt357 for sending me some of his stash.

Chau,

I've never had a problem with 2% malt and 48-hr fermentations. It worked without a hitch. I've also done a 5-hr emergency dough with as much as 3% malt in it. Turned out great.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8093.msg396642#msg396642

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8093.msg396717#msg396717
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jackie Tran on January 30, 2016, 05:34:13 PM
Good stuff Mike.  Was the 48 hour dough done at room temp? 
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on January 31, 2016, 01:42:35 PM
Good stuff Mike.  Was the 48 hour dough done at room temp?

No, the 48-hr dough was bulk CF. The only RT dough with malt was the 5-hr dough but I had to slip it into the refer for an hour or so to slow it down a little.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: hotsawce on January 31, 2016, 01:49:43 PM
I have a detroit-inspired dough I made last night cold fermenting with 2% LDM. Just the LDM, no sugar. Baking it today and tomorrow.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jackie Tran on January 31, 2016, 02:03:46 PM
Has anyone done an extended RT ferment with 2% LDM?  Something between 24-48 hours at room temps. 
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jackie Tran on February 03, 2016, 01:02:19 AM
I used 1% LDM today but did a 30hr RT ferment (70f). I wanted to see if the LDM enzyme activity would degrade the dough during an extended RT ferment and it did not.  Interestingly enough though, the dough did develop black specks resembling dough that has been CF for a really long time.   This speckling was noted when I went to divide and ball the dough after a 15 hr bulk.  The final dough balls also exhibited this heavy speckling.   Other than that, the dough behaved as it normally would.  Baked up two good pies. 

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on February 03, 2016, 05:52:47 PM
Chau,

I first encountered those black tiny spots when I took home a dough ball from one of the best slice joints in San Francisco, Marcello's. I posted it in my NY-style project thread but it's buried in there somewhere... :-\
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jackie Tran on February 03, 2016, 06:18:04 PM
Chau,

I first encountered those black tiny spots when I took home a dough ball from one of the best slice joints in San Francisco, Marcello's. I posted it in my NY-style project thread but it's buried in there somewhere... :-\

I know Peter and Norma have posted about them before.  I've also seen them a few times when I experimented with really long cold ferments.  I saw them both times when I've used the LDM.  Do you see them on your LDM doughs as well?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on February 03, 2016, 06:31:45 PM
I know Peter and Norma have posted about them before.  I've also seen them a few times when I experimented with really long cold ferments.  I saw them both times when I've used the LDM.  Do you see them on your LDM doughs as well?

I have not seen them on my doughs so far. But then again, I have not done extensive RT ferment with the LDM, only CFs. I might give it a shot and see if those spots develop.

What was your yeast % for the 30-hr RT?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jackie Tran on February 03, 2016, 06:43:40 PM
I used 0.02% IDY, which could have easily gone 36 hours (70f) .  I needed to bake sooner and decided to increased the temp the last 3-4 hours to move the dough along. 
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on February 03, 2016, 06:51:47 PM
I used 0.02% IDY, which could have easily gone 36 hours (70f) .  I needed to bake sooner and decided to increased the temp the last 3-4 hours to move the dough along.

Thanks. I'll do a small test batch in the coming days.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on February 03, 2016, 07:24:42 PM
Chau is right. I have had quite a few dough balls with the black spotting but I did not use added diastatic malt and the dough balls were cold fermented. So I will be interested to see if the black spotting can be reproduced by Mike or others using diastatic malt.

The photo below is of a cold fermented dough ball using 0.60% IDY that lasted over twelve days. On about the second or third day in the refrigerator, I noticed that the color of the dough was darkening slightly, with what appeared to be small dark specks that gave a light gray tinge to the dough. The dough remained that way for the next nine or ten days, increasing a bit each day. Over that time, the dough spread from a round ball shape to a disk shape. The pizza itself baked up fine.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: texmex on February 04, 2016, 07:47:14 AM
I had the spots on my Spangler method ADY doughs Sunday and yesterday (they all had 25%whole wheat and combo long  RT CF) The SD Spangler doughs mixed on the same day with the same flour combo did not spot up.
 Having read about the spotting on a previous batch with ADY and finding that they pose no health threat, I've baked 'em up.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 04, 2016, 08:49:59 AM
I have not noticed spots on any of my recent doughs which have largely been IDY, 4-6 hour, bromated AT + LDM.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jackie Tran on February 04, 2016, 10:17:07 AM
I made a batch last night with 1% LDM.  The dough bulked at RT for about 5 hours and then went into CF.  I checked it this morning (after 9 hrs of CF) and noticed the very faint beginning of the speckling.  I'll monitor and report on it again later today. 

I'm more or less curious about the enzymatic or chemical affect the LDM has on the dough, if any at all.

Update - just checked the dough tonight and you can see the speckling.  I suspect it will be more prominent in the next 24 hrs.  At this point, it's seen about 5 hrs of RT fermentation and 19 hrs of CF. 
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jackie Tran on February 05, 2016, 08:56:48 PM
Here's the dough (1% LDM) with an additional 24 hr of CF.  That's 5 at RT, and 44 hr of CF.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: jvp123 on February 05, 2016, 09:08:23 PM
FYI - here's one I got going at 48 hrs CF (no RT).  Planning on 4 days total (for Super Bowl).  1% LDM.



Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: CaptBob on February 05, 2016, 10:19:26 PM
FYI - here's one I got going at 48 hrs CF (no RT).  Planning on 4 days total (for Super Bowl).  1% LDM.

Jeff....does that have some spelt in it?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: jvp123 on February 05, 2016, 10:33:05 PM
Jeff....does that have some spelt in it?

No its a Power flour / GM Superlative blend with only LDM added.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on February 06, 2016, 08:24:54 PM
According to Tom Lehmann, the black specs are the result of oxidation or a yeast issue:

Quote
Actually, there are several things that can cause those black spots.
1) Bran oxidation (very common).
2) Oxidation of the iron in the flour that is part of the flour enrichment blend (enriched flour).
3) Failure to thoroughly hydrate the yeast. This can happen with both ADY as well as IDY.
Since #3 can affect many aspects of dough performance, lets address this one first. If using ADY make sure the water temperature that you are hydrating the ADY in is at 100 to 105F. Allow the yeast to hydrate for 10-minutes, stir well, then add it to the water in the mix bowl, followed by the flour, then the salt and sugar. Mix the dough for about 2-minutes, then add the oil, and mix in your normal manner. If using IDY, add ti directly to the flour, no need to prehydrate it.
If the problem is due to oxidation of the bran or the iron, don't worry about it. It doesn't appear on the baked crust, and it has no deleterious affects upon the dough. As mentioned, it can show up on dough that is over fermented (too old), and in this case, the dough might become somewhat softer and more sticky than normal, causing it to begin sticking to the screens if that is what you're baking on. Typically, when this happens, if you look at the bottom of the crust you will see a pronounces screen pattern, this is due to the softer dough flowing into the screen more than normal, and this is what causes the sticking.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/reasons-for-black-specs-underperforming-dough.9981/
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: jvp123 on February 06, 2016, 08:53:08 PM
I only noticed it on the top skin of the bulk.  As I went to ball the dough tonight it didn't exist anywhere else.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jackie Tran on February 06, 2016, 09:11:59 PM
I only noticed it on the top skin of the bulk.  As I went to ball the dough tonight it didn't exist anywhere else.

Same here.  You can see it in reply #276.  It only formed on the top outside layer of the ball, where it had contact with the air.  When the dough relaxed enough so I could push it towards the edge of my plastic container, it creates that two layer look that you see.  This is likely a response to the malt and oxygen. 
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: jvp123 on February 06, 2016, 09:35:03 PM
Same here.  You can see it in reply #276.  It only formed on the top outside layer of the ball, where it had contact with the air.  When the dough relaxed enough so I could push it towards the edge of my plastic container, it creates that two layer look that you see.  This is likely a response to the malt and oxygen.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: jeff v on April 20, 2016, 08:29:53 PM
Skimmed this thread the other day and impressed w results and recommendations I ordered some LDMP.  I was excited by the prospect of getting a good dough w a 6-8 hr room temp fermentation.

Have to say after this first run I'm not too impressed. Looks good but taste and texture were meh. I baked these pizzas at 425 and finished the last few minutes on the pizza stone. Taste was marginally better and texture was like other same day pan pizzas. More cake like w hardly any chew. May try again but not in a hurry since 12-18 hr no knead is so much better for me.

100 KABF
65 h20
3, evoo
2.5 salt
2 LDMP
.175 IDY
8hr room temp ferment.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: jsaras on April 20, 2016, 10:58:28 PM
The bake looks good, but how did you settle on a 425F bake temperature?  475 is the lowest I've tried.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: jeff v on April 20, 2016, 11:27:31 PM
The bake looks good, but how did you settle on a 425F bake temperature?  475 is the lowest I've tried.

When I do sauce first and cheese on top I like the cheese to get more well done so I started baking cooler. When I do cheese on first and sauce on top I bake hotter.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on April 23, 2016, 10:50:50 PM
Still trying to source some diastatic malt in the country I am in without paying 3x as much as in the states. There is a readily available product here called ethol  maltose. Anyone know if that is similar??
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on April 23, 2016, 11:25:03 PM
Still trying to source some diastatic malt in the country I am in without paying 3x as much as in the states. There is a readily available product here called ethol  maltose. Anyone know if that is similar??

How could we possibly help you in your quest of LDM if we don't know which country you reside? Might want to give the members here a little more info and there might be someone to help you resource it.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on April 23, 2016, 11:32:51 PM
How could we possibly help you in your quest of LDM if we don't know which country you reside? Might want to give the members here a little more info and there might be someone to help you resource it.

I didn't realize which country I am in is really relevant to my question regarding "ethol maltose" and if it is the same or not.

I live in China.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jackie Tran on April 23, 2016, 11:33:29 PM
Try making your own Aric.

https://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/making-your-own-diastatic-malt/

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on April 23, 2016, 11:39:55 PM
Still trying to source some diastatic malt in the country I am in without paying 3x as much as in the states.

I think you're talking about this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethyl_maltol

It is not the same as low-diastatic malt. Ethyl maltol is also used in E-cigarettes.

http://www.ecigexpress.com/diy-e-liquid/e-liquid-additives/liquid-concentrates/ethyl-maltol-liquid-concentrate.html
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on April 23, 2016, 11:44:20 PM
Try making your own Aric.

https://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/making-your-own-diastatic-malt/


What?!?!? I am totally going to do this!
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on April 23, 2016, 11:46:19 PM
Try making your own Aric.

https://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/making-your-own-diastatic-malt/

What about the Lintner numbers though? How do you know it's high or low DMP?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on April 23, 2016, 11:47:28 PM
I think you're talking about this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethyl_maltol

It is not the same as low-diastatic malt. Ethyl maltol is also used in E-cigarettes.

http://www.ecigexpress.com/diy-e-liquid/e-liquid-additives/liquid-concentrates/ethyl-maltol-liquid-concentrate.html


Sounds not right! Haha. Thanks!
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jackie Tran on April 23, 2016, 11:54:00 PM
What about the Lintner numbers though? How do you know it's high or low DMP?

You could probably do a few test doughs to determine its strength.  I might try 2% DMP on a 6 hour dough.  If the dough becomes tacky and the crumb gummy, I would decrease it to 1% then 0.5%.  Keep lowering the % until you get good results.   I would also make a control test dough minus the DMP just to see the difference.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on April 24, 2016, 12:03:33 AM
Chau, does this look like it would work for sprouting?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jackie Tran on April 24, 2016, 12:20:16 AM
I bet it would.  Looks like wheat berries to me.  Try it!
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: vtsteve on April 24, 2016, 12:28:19 AM
If it's wheat, it should sprout; if it's hulled barley then it won't (the hulling process kills the barley embryo) - I can't tell the difference visually.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on April 24, 2016, 12:29:34 AM
It is hulled wheat.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: vtsteve on April 24, 2016, 12:32:52 AM
Anything you're trying to sprout should be minimally processed. If it's had the bran stripped off, it's probably dead. I thought the sides looked a little torn up.
But, wheat isn't usually 'hulled' - barley's got a lot more of a wrapper on it.   :-\
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on April 24, 2016, 12:35:21 AM
Okay. I can find unprocessed. That was just the first one to pop up
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on April 24, 2016, 12:41:18 AM
2nd search result specifically says that you can sprout it. Looks like I'll have to de-twig it a little though. Oh well! Haha.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on April 24, 2016, 12:42:50 AM
Anything you're trying to sprout should be minimally processed. If it's had the bran stripped off, it's probably dead. I thought the sides looked a little torn up.
But, wheat isn't usually 'hulled' - barley's got a lot more of a wrapper on it.   :-\

Well and I can't say that it is "hulled". The Chinese is a bit less technically. It says it has the "skin" removed.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: vtsteve on April 24, 2016, 12:45:27 AM
Well and I can't say that it is "hulled". The Chinese is a bit less technically. It says it has the "skin" removed.

That second one looks like a winner!
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on April 24, 2016, 12:46:42 AM
That second one looks like a winner!

Great! This will be my project over the next few weeks!!
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on April 24, 2016, 01:03:30 AM
You could probably do a few test doughs to determine its strength.  I might try 2% DMP on a 6 hour dough.  If the dough becomes tacky and the crumb gummy, I would decrease it to 1% then 0.5%.  Keep lowering the % until you get good results.   I would also make a control test dough minus the DMP just to see the difference.

I'm pretty positive you could see the difference after 90 mins to a max of 2 hrs. However, that might just be the initial impact up front. I'd go for 12 hrs then see how the dough feels.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on April 24, 2016, 01:18:29 AM
The only problem I see with homemade malt is you don't know where you stand in terms of potency, Lintner numbers, possible enzyme activity and impact on your dough formula.

I agree to a point with you, Chau, to experiment but it may be more of a PITA trying to figure out what works, considering the amount of flour, yeast, etc is or could be wasted during those experiments, especially if Emu has limited option in China.

I'd just contact nybakers.com or centralmilling.com and ask for guidance and them to ship me a sample of AB Maury or Tony G's malt, which is the same.

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on April 24, 2016, 01:20:32 AM
The only problem I see with homemade malt is you don't know where you stand in terms of potency, Lintner numbers, possible enzyme activity and impact on your dough formula.

I agree to a point with you, Chau, to experiment but it may be more of a PITA trying to figure out what works, considering the amount of flour, yeast, etc is or could be wasted during those experiments, especially if Emu has limited option in China.

I'd just contact nybakers.com or centralmilling.com and ask them to ship me a sample of AB Maury or Tony G's malt, which is the same.

Usually, those get caught up at customs and since I'm inland I have no way of going to sign for it. It's why it is so expensive. No one has established import and distribution routed for it.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: norma427 on April 24, 2016, 08:05:36 AM

What?!?!? I am totally going to do this!

the1mu,

Tom Lehmann posts about sprouted grains at Reply 132 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14554.msg150164#msg150164 and about Tom using his own to make both pizza and bread doughs at Reply 75 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14554.msg146152#msg146152 

There is a lot of good information from Peter and other members in that thread.  You can see what Peter had to say about my first attempt to sprout wheat berries at Reply 67  https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14554.msg146000#msg146000   :-D

At Reply 73 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14554.msg146105#msg146105 some of the sprouted berries can be seen.

In the end those experiments were fun and if you decide to do them to make your own I would be interested in seeing your results.

I purchase LDM now so I can get more consistent results.

Norma
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on April 24, 2016, 08:14:06 AM
the1mu,

Tom Lehmann posts about sprouted grains at Reply 132 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14554.msg150164#msg150164 and about Tom using his own to make both pizza and bread doughs at Reply 75 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14554.msg146152#msg146152 

There is a lot of good information from Peter and other members in that thread.  You can see what Peter had to say about my first attempt to sprout wheat berries at Reply 67  https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14554.msg146000#msg146000   :-D

At Reply 73 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14554.msg146105#msg146105 some of the sprouted berries can be seen.

In the end those experiments were fun and if you decide to do them to make your own I would be interested in seeing your results.

I purchase LDM now so I can get more consistent results.

Norma
Awesome! Thanks Norma! I am going to look at those now!
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on April 24, 2016, 08:20:22 AM
the1mu,

Tom Lehmann posts about sprouted grains at Reply 132 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14554.msg150164#msg150164 and about Tom using his own to make both pizza and bread doughs at Reply 75 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14554.msg146152#msg146152 

There is a lot of good information from Peter and other members in that thread.  You can see what Peter had to say about my first attempt to sprout wheat berries at Reply 67  https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14554.msg146000#msg146000   :-D

At Reply 73 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14554.msg146105#msg146105 some of the sprouted berries can be seen.

In the end those experiments were fun and if you decide to do them to make your own I would be interested in seeing your results.

I purchase LDM now so I can get more consistent results.

Norma


Tom talks about deactivating them. Isn't the point of the DMP to have them activated?

Also, how inconsistent were your results?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: norma427 on April 24, 2016, 09:08:15 AM

Tom talks about deactivating them. Isn't the point of the DMP to have them activated?

Also, how inconsistent were your results?

the1mu,

I really don't understand enough anymore about that thread.  Maybe someone that understands more can tell you more.

I don't even recall how inconsistent my results were.  That thread for a few years ago when I was experimenting with different things.

Norma
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: vtsteve on April 24, 2016, 10:02:33 AM
The Weekend Bakery link given above (https://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/making-your-own-diastatic-malt/) specifies a max temperature of 104F to preserve the enzyme activity - Tom's post was about using a much higher percentage of sprouted grain for nutritional enhancement, not as an enzyme additive.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on April 24, 2016, 10:14:22 AM
The Weekend Bakery link given above (https://www.weekendbakery.com/posts/making-your-own-diastatic-malt/) specifies a max temperature of 104F to preserve the enzyme activity - Tom's post was about using a much higher percentage of sprouted grain for nutritional enhancement, not as an enzyme additive.

Perfect. thanks!
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jackie Tran on April 24, 2016, 11:38:07 AM
The only problem I see with homemade malt is you don't know where you stand in terms of potency, Lintner numbers, possible enzyme activity and impact on your dough formula.

I agree to a point with you, Chau, to experiment but it may be more of a PITA trying to figure out what works, considering the amount of flour, yeast, etc is or could be wasted during those experiments, especially if Emu has limited option in China.

I'd just contact nybakers.com or centralmilling.com and ask for guidance and them to ship me a sample of AB Maury or Tony G's malt, which is the same.

Isn't that what we do here at PM Mike?  We experiment and not all experiments always work out and that's okay.  Dough is cheap.  I bet 2-3 small batches of dinner rolls and he'd have a good idea of the relative strength.   But I'd much rather buy it then make it for sure.  In the event that it's just not available or is cost prohibitive, I'd definitely make it than go without.  It's worth the effort IMO.  I've gotten some phenomenal results in my bread making so far on batches that had LDM in it.  Knowing what I know now I wouldn't hesitate to make it. 
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jackie Tran on April 24, 2016, 11:42:46 AM

Isn't the point of the DMP to have them activated?


Depends on what you want it to do.  I think some ppl are just looking for the added flavor and color in the end product and not the enzyme activity.  I would also bet that you could make both Low DMP versus high.  To do so I would make two batches, one activated and one de-activated.  I would mix the two in a 50/50 ratio and test that.   I bet that would get you close a low DMP.  As stated before, I would then test between 0.5-2% of the flour weight.     
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on April 24, 2016, 11:52:27 AM
Depends on what you want it to do.  I think some ppl are just looking for the added flavor and color in the end product and not the enzyme activity.  I would also bet that you could make both Low DMP versus high.  To do so I would make two batches, one activated and one de-activated.  I would mix the two in a 50/50 ratio and test that.   I bet that would get you close a low DMP.  As stated before, I would then test between 0.5-2% of the flour weight.   

Why not just use less if it is "too powerful?" 
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jackie Tran on April 24, 2016, 11:55:10 AM
Why not just use less if it is "too powerful?"

You can also do that.  But in case it is still too strong at small amounts, then it's pretty easy to just cut the strength in half by mixing it with non diastatic malt. 
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on April 24, 2016, 12:18:11 PM
I think a bit of flour will do.  You may want to read this post from Peter: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34845.msg352179#msg352179

He has written in a few places about the ingredients in diastatic malt powder.  It seems that it is never "pure" and that the Lintner number ("power") is largely dependent on how diluted it si.

I just think it is very unnecessary trouble to make 2 batches of malt (diastatic and not) and mix them to reach a level that is easy to mix in.  Non-diastatic is like a sugar anyway so you would be adding some sugar to the diastatic malt.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jackie Tran on April 24, 2016, 12:29:26 PM
Good idea Mitch.  I didn't think of that but cutting in flour would be easier for sure.  It wouldn't be hard two make to batches though.  After making your DM, you could reserve half of it and heat the other half to a higher temp to deactivated it.  I agree with Mike that it could be a PITA to make it, but again I would only go through the hassle of making it if I couldn't source it easily or cost effectlvely.  I was just noting that I didn't see an issue with regulating the potency of homemade DMP.  It seems fairly straight forward.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on April 24, 2016, 06:54:32 PM
Good idea Mitch.  I didn't think of that but cutting in flour would be easier for sure.  It wouldn't be hard two make to batches though.  After making your DM, you could reserve half of it and heat the other half to a higher temp to deactivated it.  I agree with Mike that it could be a PITA to make it, but again I would only go through the hassle of making it if I couldn't source it easily or cost effectlvely.  I was just noting that I didn't see an issue with regulating the potency of homemade DMP.  It seems fairly straight forward.

I am planning on doing this anyway, but not for pizza making. I am using a malt syrup for my bagels and would love to get away from that sticky nastiness! But it should be non-diastatic for bagels, so, I'll be toasting half of my first batch at the temps Tom mentioned.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on April 24, 2016, 07:24:03 PM
Any opinions on if I should use wheat or barley?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: vtsteve on April 24, 2016, 07:28:32 PM
I'll be toasting half of my first batch at the temps Tom mentioned.
Tom was just trying to shut down the enzymes without cooking the flour - else it wouldn't form a workable dough.
You should toast your malted grains to golden brown (or darker) to get the maximum malty goodness.
I've been using crystal malt (non-diastatic powder or syrup) in my long CF doughs.   :drool:


Any opinions on if I should use wheat or barley?
Wheat would be cleaner to work with; barley needs those hulls removed after drying/before grinding.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on April 24, 2016, 08:02:52 PM
I am planning on doing this anyway, but not for pizza making. I am using a malt syrup for my bagels and would love to get away from that sticky nastiness! But it should be non-diastatic for bagels, so, I'll be toasting half of my first batch at the temps Tom mentioned.

Don't ask me why because I have no idea what the answer is- most of the bagel recipes in books that I have seen use diastatic malt vs. non-diastatic malt interchangeably.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jackie Tran on April 24, 2016, 09:27:52 PM
Don't ask me why because I have no idea what the answer is- most of the bagel recipes in books that I have seen use diastatic malt vs. non-diastatic malt interchangeably.

The only difference I think you'll see in the end product is that one bagel is a bit lighter and more airy.  Some ppl like a more dense and slightly chewier bagel and some may want a more bread like texture.  I want to try and make bagels soon and I would definitely planning to use LDMP.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on April 26, 2016, 09:21:24 PM
I created a new thread to document my attempts at doing my own.

Homemade Diastatic Malt
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=42808
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on April 27, 2016, 05:47:19 AM
I like using Hoosier Hill Diastatic Malt because you can taste it.
Basically Hoosier Hill>AB Mauri
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on April 27, 2016, 10:26:49 AM
The only difference I think you'll see in the end product is that one bagel is a bit lighter and more airy.  Some ppl like a more dense and slightly chewier bagel and some may want a more bread like texture.  I want to try and make bagels soon and I would definitely planning to use LDMP.

I have been assuming, along the lines you say, that the DMP will give an airier crumb.  But, I have also been assuming that the non-diastatic malt syrup provides the malty flavor (I think unique).  So, my assumptions (untested) have been a little different than more dense/less dense.

I have not tested my assumptiions with a bunch of side by sides, but I have been using some of each (very happy with results) in the same recipes.  It would be nice if the bread book authors outlined the differences instead of just saying you can use either.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on April 28, 2016, 09:41:27 PM
In general, does anyone adjust their yeast % when using diastatic malt versus not?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 29, 2016, 12:16:52 AM
In general, does anyone adjust their yeast % when using diastatic malt versus not?

I haven't been adjusting the yeast and it's been working fine.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on April 29, 2016, 12:23:11 AM
I haven't been adjusting the yeast and it's been working fine.

Great. That means I just need to be careful where it would regard degrees litner.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on April 29, 2016, 01:21:41 AM
In general, does anyone adjust their yeast % when using diastatic malt versus not?

No. Just the sugar amount I've used before I started using LDMP.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on April 29, 2016, 01:23:13 AM
No. Just the sugar amount I've used before I started using LDMP.


Can you elaborate? I'm currently at 1% sugar...

I won't drop it right away, but I will do a couple tests to compare with/without.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on April 29, 2016, 01:32:26 AM

Can you elaborate? I'm currently at 1% sugar...

I won't drop it right away, but I will do a couple tests to compare with/without.

My go-to sugar amount was always 2% in most cases and was also depending on the oven I used, so it fluctuated on occasion. I didn't use sugar for taste but as an additional browning agent. LDMP is a terrific aide in terms of browning and coloration when used in connection with longer fermentation times (24-hr min).

In shorter fermentations, as short as 5 hours, I used 3% of LDMP and still 1% of sugar. The results were pretty amazing.

P.S.: If you intend to bake in a commercial oven and plan on longer fermentations, you may not need any sugar at all.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on April 29, 2016, 07:40:28 AM
Trying to make an educated guess on how many degrees lintner my homemade stuff may wind up having.

The original link that Chau posted recommended 2% of the homemade stuff for bread applications which makes me think it would be more in the 20-60L range based on the different amounts discussed here.

However, in my search on the webs, I found this http://www.briess.com/food/Products/mimbf.php link that mentions there sprouted wheat flour is upwards of 170 lintner.

So, I'm thinking to start for my 24 CF at the absolute most id want to start with would be 1% but I'm leaning towards .5% which I'm still worried is on the high side.

I'm also guessing that only 85-90% of my grains sprouted but not sure if that affects the lintner value in the end...
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on April 29, 2016, 07:41:31 AM
My go-to sugar amount was always 2% in most cases and was also depending on the oven I used, so it fluctuated on occasion. I didn't use sugar for taste but as an additional browning agent. LDMP is a terrific aide in terms of browning and coloration when used in connection with longer fermentation times (24-hr min).

In shorter fermentations, as short as 5 hours, I used 3% of LDMP and still 1% of sugar. The results were pretty amazing.

P.S.: If you intend to bake in a commercial oven and plan on longer fermentations, you may not need any sugar at all.

Great, thanks! I use the 1% sugar for flavor. My wife always can tell when I omit it and we have a combined preference of it rather than not. 
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on April 29, 2016, 09:53:01 AM
In general, does anyone adjust their yeast % when using diastatic malt versus not?
Aric,

To echo what the others have said, I do not recall ever reading that one should change the amount of yeast when using diastatic malt. I'm sure that I would have remembered such a tidbit. But I have often seen recommendations that the sugar in a dough be reduced or eliminated.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on April 29, 2016, 10:04:37 AM
Trying So, I'm thinking to start for my 24 CF at the absolute most id want to start with would be 1% but I'm leaning towards .5% which I'm still worried is on the high side.
Aric,

I once had an exchange with General Mills, which uses barley malt in most of their white flours, and was told that they add 0.1-0.2% diastatic malt to those flours. See Reply 23 at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11549.msg106388;topicseen#msg106388

To get from the high diastatic malt products to the LDM form, the barley malt is typically supplemented with wheat flour and a form of sugar, such as dextrose. And the order of those ingredients can vary from one LDM product to another. However, the producers of those products have been known to screw up the sequence in their literature so you have to dig deeper to get the correct sequence and, hopefully, the correct degrees Lintner number. What you will be making will be the strongest version of diastatic malt.

Peter

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: JD on April 29, 2016, 02:56:52 PM
Aric,

I once had an exchange with General Mills, which uses barley malt in most of their white flours, and was told that they add 0.1-0.2% diastatic malt to those flours. See Reply 23 at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11549.msg106388;topicseen#msg106388

To get from the high diastatic malt products to the LDM form, the barley malt is typically supplemented with wheat flour and a form of sugar, such as dextrose. And the order of those ingredients can vary from one LDM product to another. However, the producers of those products have been known to screw up the sequence in their literature so you have to dig deeper to get the correct sequence and, hopefully, the correct degrees Lintner number. What you will be making will be the strongest version of diastatic malt.

Peter

Peter,

Earlier in this thread you tried to find out what the lintner value of the Barry Farms DMP was. The last post from you on the subject is inconclusive, did you ever figure it out? I purchased some on Amazon last week and now I'll have to figure out how much to use, I'll probably start with 0.5% - 1.0% as the1mu will be doing.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on April 29, 2016, 04:05:51 PM
Peter,

Earlier in this thread you tried to find out what the lintner value of the Barry Farms DMP was. The last post from you on the subject is inconclusive, did you ever figure it out? I purchased some on Amazon last week and now I'll have to figure out how much to use, I'll probably start with 0.5% - 1.0% as the1mu will be doing.
Josh,

No, I never got that matter resolved. Barry Farms is a reseller so it is not surprising that they would not know the answer to your question. But if you go to their website at http://www.barryfarm.com/nutri_info/baking%20supplies/diastaticmaltpowder.htm (http://www.barryfarm.com/nutri_info/baking%20supplies/diastaticmaltpowder.htm), you will see the ingredients listed as malted barley flour, dextrose and flour. If that sequence is correct, then to me it would suggest a higher degrees Lintner number and therefore a smaller percent to use. Barry Farms itself says to use one teaspoon per loaf of bread.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 05, 2016, 10:27:57 AM
Has anyone considered the need (or lack thereof) to add the weight of DM to the flour when calculating hydration?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on May 05, 2016, 10:42:05 AM
Has anyone considered the need (or lack thereof) to add the weight of DM to the flour when calculating hydration?

Well, for a dough of 1000g flour weight, with 2% barley malt, it'd only change the hydration by 12 grams or 1.2%, so in small batches, I feel like it is pretty negligible.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on May 05, 2016, 11:26:29 AM
Has anyone considered the need (or lack thereof) to add the weight of DM to the flour when calculating hydration?
Craig,

Technically, I suppose one could do that but at the same time one might also take into account that diastatic malt, in the form of barley malt flour, has about 8% water in it:

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5788/2

In similar vein, several years ago, I put together a list of the water contents of various ingredients at Reply 6 at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5025.msg42589#msg42589

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 05, 2016, 11:31:13 AM
Technically, I suppose one could do that but at the same time one might also take into account that diastatic malt, in the form of barley malt flour, has about 8% water in it:

We don't consider the weight of water in flour (which is ~14%) when calculating HR. If DM is 8% moisture, gram for gram it would lower hydration more than an equal weight of additional flour, right? Most anyone here using DM is precise on hydration to at least 1.0% if not 0.5%. An lots of people are at 2% DM. What would be the point of being precise to 1% on HR as far as flour is concerned and ignore the DM when it might be swinging your HR by 2%+?

Just a thought.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on May 05, 2016, 11:50:41 AM
We don't consider the weight of water in flour (which is ~14%) when calculating HR. If DM is 8% moisture, gram for gram it would lower hydration more than an equal weight of additional flour, right? Most anyone here using DM is precise on hydration to at least 1.0% if not 0.5%. An lots of people are at 2% DM. What would be the point of being precise to 1% on HR as far as flour is concerned and ignore the DM when it might be swinging your HR by 2%+?

Just a thought.
Craig,

Flour can get tricky because its moisture content can range between about 14-14.5% (and even higher outside of the U.S.) and 10.5%, which Tom Lehmann says is about as low as the moisture content can get for basic white flours, usually after being in the distribution channel too long and/or being stored in warehouses too long. The only way to know the moisture content of a given flour is to do a bake test. When Norma and I played around with Mellow Mushroom clones, where Norma ran a hydration bake test on a sample of the MM dough, I used about 14% moisture content for calculation purposes in coming up with a clone dough formulation. I picked that number on the assumption that MM used fresh flour because of its high volumes.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 05, 2016, 12:01:56 PM
Regardless, the question I'm asking is why would you treat it different from flour when calculating HR? If you added a couple percent of rye or spelt, would you exclude it from the hydration calculation or consider its moisture content?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 05, 2016, 12:08:27 PM
Good point Craig.  I've been using mostly 0.5% and not calculating it's weight as part of the flour weight.   
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on May 05, 2016, 12:35:16 PM
If you added a couple percent of rye or spelt, would you exclude it from the hydration calculation or consider its moisture content?
Craig,

In the past when I have been confronted by issues like that, such as adding semolina, whole wheat flour or vital wheat gluten to an existing base flour, my practice has been to check the protein content and moisture content of the added ingredients relative to the corresponding values of the base flour, and make my best judgment as to how much to adjust the total formula hydration. I would also check to see if Tom Lehmann had made suggestions along these lines. For example, when adding vital wheat gluten to an existing base flour, Tom would suggest that one add an amount of water equal to about 1 1/2-2 times the weight of the vital wheat gluten to the dough. I believe that in the case of semolina Tom said that it wasn't necessary to alter the formula hydration for the amounts of semolina he suggested be used (up to about 20%) but I found that for the semolina I used I had to increase the formula hydration by a percent or two. Ultimately, I think that it comes down to the "feel" of the final dough and whether further tweaking is needed.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 05, 2016, 01:20:12 PM
I'm not suggesting there is a right or wrong way. I just thought it was interesting that it has been completely ignored up to this point.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on May 05, 2016, 11:22:35 PM
Has anyone ever thought of adding this to their sourdough starters? Would there even be any benefit? I also imagine the amount being added would be on the level of micrograms using a jewelry scale.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 06, 2016, 12:59:22 AM
Has anyone ever thought of adding this to their sourdough starters? Would there even be any benefit? I also imagine the amount being added would be on the level of micrograms using a jewelry scale.

I've been adding it to my 8-hour sourdough bread and am very pleased with the flavor.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: keylime73 on May 12, 2016, 04:25:03 AM
This is as good a place to ask as any, I guess: What's the reason to favor a low Lintner value? 

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on May 12, 2016, 04:30:04 AM
This is as good a place to ask as any, I guess: What's the reason to favor a low Lintner value?


By no means an expert, but I believe you have a greater margin of error and more recipes are written for lower lintner values.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: keylime73 on May 12, 2016, 06:23:37 PM
It's purely anecdotal and not much of a sample size, I suppose, but I've used two DSMPs.   The first was the little packet of free DSMP you get when you order flour from Tony Gemignani's site, which I can assume is "his" from Central Milling, which is rated at 20 Lintner.  It worked great for browning at about 1% in my dough.  I didn't know anything about LV when I used it or when I ran out and ordered this http://breadtopia.com/store/organic-diastatic-barley-malt-powder/, which turned out to have an LV of 210 (!).  So I backed off and used it at .25% and .50% and it clearly wasn't browning at anywhere near the same level, which sort of surprised me.  My current doughballs that I'll cook tomorrow are 1% DSMP now. 

Am I wrong to think that this, the browning, is ultimately the main "effect" of LV? Just curious, I guess.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on May 12, 2016, 08:39:04 PM
It's purely anecdotal and not much of a sample size, I suppose, but I've used two DSMPs.   The first was the little packet of free DSMP you get when you order flour from Tony Gemignani's site, which I can assume is "his" from Central Milling, which is rated at 20 Lintner.  It worked great for browning at about 1% in my dough.  I didn't know anything about LV when I used it or when I ran out and ordered this http://breadtopia.com/store/organic-diastatic-barley-malt-powder/, which turned out to have an LV of 210 (!).  So I backed off and used it at .25% and .50% and it clearly wasn't browning at anywhere near the same level, which sort of surprised me.  My current doughballs that I'll cook tomorrow are 1% DSMP now. 

Am I wrong to think that this, the browning, is ultimately the main "effect" of LV? Just curious, I guess.

Wait, what? It has a lintner value of 210 and you are using 1% without any ill side effects?

How long of a ferment are you doing?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: keylime73 on May 13, 2016, 12:49:13 AM
Pretty typical: KABF 60% hydration, 2% oil, 2% salt,.3% IDY   one time  DSMP @.25% and .5%  no sugar

48 hours in fridge @ 45F

The dough seemed okay but not the best spring, which I blame on my steel/stone setup at that go. But maybe not? Browning was clearly not as pronounced as the 20LV DSMP from TG.

The ones I'm cooking tomorrow are at 1% of this DSMP. They are in the fridge and look good. Maybe 210 LV just isn't accurate.

Anyway, maybe I'll post some pictures if they turn out camera-worthy. I think I'm going to try TXCraig's steel-in-the-middle/broiler method.

It's probably the only arrangement I haven't tried yet in my oven.   ;)
Title: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on May 13, 2016, 12:57:24 AM
Now that I think about it, I wonder how much the added dextrose would contribute to color?

With that high of an LV, I imagine it is pure malted barley with no wheat flour and no dextrose. So perhaps the browning came from that.

I love the color I'm getting from my home-made stuff which I'm guessing is 150-175 LV.

I use it not necessarily for color but for the flavor that comes from the enzymatic activity and the added texture to crumb and crust. Not color specifically.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on May 24, 2016, 06:29:38 AM
I may not be using malt in a way that's helping. In fact, I think I'm making things worse.


I've been pretty happy with my doughs.but hearing about malt, I;ve tried a few times to add it to my dough. My experience last night is similar to most of my other attempts. I used Central Milling malt (previously Id used Hoosier Hill) in a 4 day combination CF/RT All Trumps dough, that was started with a poolish (the malt was added to the final dough, not the poolish)

When I mixed the dough I thought it seemed pretty wet (though it was a new bag of AT, so it may have been a little different from before)  Last night 2 DB's were baked ( a third, an SD inspired by Mitch's recent pies, though with not enough time, was fine)  Both were easy to open and seemed strong, but the oven spring was very minimal ..I do late-balling, OS usually is huge..the the usual airy crispiness of the dough was not there..it was much breadier than usual..not much fun to eat..not awful, but nowhere near as good as usual. The dough browned quickly..too quickly I guess for my desired time. sand even the flavor was not close to the usual deeply developed flavors I expect from a long fermentation.  Yeast amount was .7%


My thought is that this is not the right thing to be using in a long dough if it has a significant RT involved. Better for same day/next day doughs, is that right?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jackie Tran on May 24, 2016, 08:24:20 AM
That's been my observations.   Especially the long RT part.  The activity of LDMP seems to be temp dependent.  I've gotten better results with either a quick RT dough (upto 16hrs RT or a longer CF dough upto 30 something hours).  It makes sense since we are talking about enzymatic activity here.

Also what % are you using.   If I do a quick dough I will use a Max of 2%.  Longer doughs I drop it way down.  I've gotten a few bad results with it and it sucks when you do.  But I've gotten some of my best breads and pizza when used properly.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on May 24, 2016, 08:39:00 AM
Thanks Chau...I see I mis-spoke/mistyped..My yeast was .128%, It was my LDMP that was .7%   The RT time was 14 hours .... 5 in bulk, and 9 in balls. This was during a total fermentation of 4 days (not including poolish time)   I think the enzymes did me in :(   I'll try it in  a shorter dough and also give it another shot in WW bread. I've done that a couple of times at your suggestion but not sure I can tell the difference. I'd need to A/B it to find out. When I bake WW, I tend to add some rye sometimes (also some BF) and have also been playing with grain soakers...so there's a lot going on
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Mike O'Logical on May 28, 2016, 09:42:19 PM
I don’t have any experience using malt in baking (although I’m about to give it a go), but have a whole lot of experience with it in brewing as I spent several years in the industry.  Some things to consider (I’ll repeat some stuff most of you may already know):

Like yeast, amylase activity is temperature dependent.  In brewing, you start with the mash which is essentially a soup or stew of crushed barley grains.  You bring it up to a temp roughly between 140dF-160dF.  Alpha- and beta- amylase are most active at different temps in that range and give different results (roughly a difference between body & fermentable sugars).  Depending on the target character of the beer you might set the mash at a single temp, or you might use a number of temps to try to wrest the best from all worlds.

As far as diastatic power (DP), it’s not an issue when using high quality malts which are inherently capable of converting  their own starches to fermentable sugars.  It only comes into play when using low-quality malts or adjuncts like corn or rice which don’t have enough DP to convert themselves.

Having read through this thread (and Tony G’s book), I think it’s much ado about nothing.

In Tony G’s book, he stated at least twice that the main reason for adding malt to his formulas was to increase browning in a home oven.  Non-diastatic malt will contribute the same benefit.  His recommendation of diastatic malt could be because that’s what he’s always used and is comfortable with it and recommending it.  Could be he was promoting a product from Central Milling with whom he has a financial relationship (Not That There’s Anything Wrong With That).

When thinking about diastatic malt, it might be helpful to separate the parts:  Malt & enzymes.  The malt is essentially a form of sugar.  The enzymes can break down starches in a grain into simpler sugars.  Non-diastatic malt has just been processed at a higher temperature which denatures the enzymes.

In my opinion, degrees Lintner for the home baker/pizza maker should be among the least of your concerns if you cold ferment.  Amylase activity slows to a crawl in a fridge, as does yeast.   A long cold ferment with diastatic malt might result in a little sweeter dough, or the yeast might consume the extra sugars to give more lift and flavor.  Depends on the formula.   At the very low percentage called for in Tony’s formulas, I’m not sure the enzymes would do much at all in a cold ferment except maybe if it was very long. It's not something I would fret over.

I suspect (and this is pure speculation) that malt is added to many retail flours because the majority use is room-temp ferments where the amylases are more active.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on May 28, 2016, 10:27:23 PM
I don’t have any experience using malt in baking (although I’m about to give it a go), but have a whole lot of experience with it in brewing as I spent several years in the industry.  Some things to consider (I’ll repeat some stuff most of you may already know):

Like yeast, amylase activity is temperature dependent.  In brewing, you start with the mash which is essentially a soup or stew of crushed barley grains.  You bring it up to a temp roughly between 140dF-160dF.  Alpha- and beta- amylase are most active at different temps in that range and give different results (roughly a difference between body & fermentable sugars).  Depending on the target character of the beer you might set the mash at a single temp, or you might use a number of temps to try to wrest the best from all worlds.

As far as diastatic power (DP), it’s not an issue when using high quality malts which are inherently capable of converting  their own starches to fermentable sugars.  It only comes into play when using low-quality malts or adjuncts like corn or rice which don’t have enough DP to convert themselves.

Having read through this thread (and Tony G’s book), I think it’s much ado about nothing.

In Tony G’s book, he stated at least twice that the main reason for adding malt to his formulas was to increase browning in a home oven.  Non-diastatic malt will contribute the same benefit.  His recommendation of diastatic malt could be because that’s what he’s always used and is comfortable with it and recommending it.  Could be he was promoting a product from Central Milling with whom he has a financial relationship (Not That There’s Anything Wrong With That).

When thinking about diastatic malt, it might be helpful to separate the parts:  Malt & enzymes.  The malt is essentially a form of sugar.  The enzymes can break down starches in a grain into simpler sugars.  Non-diastatic malt has just been processed at a higher temperature which denatures the enzymes.

In my opinion, degrees Lintner for the home baker/pizza maker should be among the least of your concerns if you cold ferment.  Amylase activity slows to a crawl in a fridge, as does yeast.   A long cold ferment with diastatic malt might result in a little sweeter dough, or the yeast might consume the extra sugars to give more lift and flavor.  Depends on the formula.   At the very low percentage called for in Tony’s formulas, I’m not sure the enzymes would do much at all in a cold ferment except maybe if it was very long. It's not something I would fret over.

I suspect (and this is pure speculation) that malt is added to many retail flours because the majority use is room-temp ferments where the amylases are more active.

What is dF? I tried looking it up but the conversion I found was something like 1000dF=32F.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on May 29, 2016, 07:29:36 AM
MO'L,


So based on your knowledge and information, might that explain why I had the less-than-expected results in my long RT and CF pie a few posts above..the one Chau (Jackie Tran) responded to?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Mike O'Logical on May 30, 2016, 05:22:19 PM
What is dF? I tried looking it up but the conversion I found was something like 1000dF=32F.

That's my e-mail shorthand for degrees Fahrenheit.  Apologize for the confusion.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Mike O'Logical on May 30, 2016, 06:40:03 PM
MO'L,


So based on your knowledge and information, might that explain why I had the less-than-expected results in my long RT and CF pie a few posts above..the one Chau (Jackie Tran) responded to?

Seems plausible, although--again--my experience with barley malt isn't with baking.

It might be helpful to think of amylases similar to yeast:  activity is time/temp dependent (higher temp = faster work), hydration (wetter encourages more activity), raw materials (starches in the case of amylases), and volume of homies in the mix.

So, a long room temp ferment will result in more breakdown of starches than the same time in the fridge with the same formula. 

Also remember that wheat flour has amylases itself, so adding more is just sort of a booster shot or steroids, depending on your preferred metaphor.

Again, diastatic malt has two components:  Sugar, and enzymes that make more sugar.  Hard to assign which is to blame for failure without controlled experiments.  Of course, it could be something else entirely.  ;D
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on May 30, 2016, 09:10:21 PM
Thanks Mike....Well, I don't know that I can count this as an official controlled experiment, but here's what I did after that bake. I wanted to see what would happen if I made (almost) my only variable be the malt..Yes, I know it should have been the one and only, but well...The only other  change I made was cutting my IDTY back to .084, and more to the point, leaving the LDM sitting on the shelf.


As before , both pies had a poolish, and one was baked on day 3 after the main mix, the other on Day 6. Day 3 was very good and day 6 was even better.Pie 1 had 14 1/2 hrs RT, pie #2 (inexplicably) had 18 1/2 hours. Both were easy to open and strong   So I think I'll save my LDM for CFs only


Thanks ! :)
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: keylime73 on May 31, 2016, 04:18:20 AM
So, assuming that DSMP has enough enzyme activity to matter at all at refrigerator temperatures, couldn't this actually make a higher LV a better choice if you wanted to use it for CF?

Also, isn't there something about the enzymes particularly acting upon broken chains of proteins or starches in the dough (or something  :-[)-- and that that itself was a desirable effect? I thought I read that someplace but maybe I'm dreaming.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 31, 2016, 08:48:33 AM
So, assuming that DSMP has enough enzyme activity to matter at all at refrigerator temperatures, couldn't this actually make a higher LV a better choice if you wanted to use it for CF?

Also, isn't there something about the enzymes particularly acting upon broken chains of proteins or starches in the dough (or something  :-[)-- and that that itself was a desirable effect? I thought I read that someplace but maybe I'm dreaming.

This may be what you are referring to:

There are two forms of amylase: α-amylase and β-amylase. α-amylase randomly breaks starch in the middle of the molecule while β-amylase breaks maltose molecules off the end of the starch chain. The two work together; because β-amylase can only act on one end of damaged starch molecules, the action of α-amylase breaking apart starch into smaller pieces creates many more locations for the β-amylase to act (28).

α-amylase is only found in grain that has begun to sprout, and it accumulates rapidly after sprouting starts. β-amylase is found un-sprouted grains and does not increase much after sprouting.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: carl333 on May 31, 2016, 01:14:28 PM
Yes, of course. Like Caputo or anything else, it's not magic, it has to be use properly, but when it is, it's pretty darn impressive. The 5 hour RT dough I've been making with it is as good or better than any 2 day refrigerated dough I've made - any refrigerated dough I've made period for that matter.

Craig, what % are you using it in your nep dough recipe? I don't have my notes in front of me but in another subject title, I think you suggested a RT at 4 hrs. then balled and 6 hrs at RT for my 1st attempt at 00 flour at 73-74 F for my 1st attempt. DMP was never part of the discussion and wondering if I should give it a shot.

tks   
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 31, 2016, 01:19:41 PM
Craig, what % are you using it in your nep dough recipe? I don't have my notes in front of me but in another subject title, I think you suggested a RT at 4 hrs. then balled and 6 hrs at RT for my 1st attempt at 00 flour at 73-74 F for my 1st attempt. DMP was never part of the discussion and wondering if I should give it a shot.

tks

Carl,

I'm not using any in my NP dough.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Mike O'Logical on May 31, 2016, 01:44:11 PM
So, assuming that DSMP has enough enzyme activity to matter at all at refrigerator temperatures, couldn't this actually make a higher LV a better choice if you wanted to use it for CF?

Also, isn't there something about the enzymes particularly acting upon broken chains of proteins or starches in the dough (or something  :-[)-- and that that itself was a desirable effect? I thought I read that someplace but maybe I'm dreaming.

"Better choice" really depends on what you're trying to accomplish.  Higher linter will obviously provide more conversion potential but whether or not that's a good thing depends on your goal for the final product.  Adding straight sugar (whether maltose, sucrose, dextrose, or whatever) provides food for yeast, sweetness, and browning without substantially affecting the base flour.  Enzymatic activity, however, breaks down some of the flour during conversion which might affect the end product in noticeable ways--depends on a lot of variables.  I'm skeptical that linter values in a cold ferment matter much, but am open to someone enlightening me.

In brewing, we start with whole malted grain (usually barley).  It's run through a mill to crack the hulls just enough to expose a mostly intact endosperm.  The grains are then steeped in hot water which hydrates the endosperm allowing the enzymes to get to work.  As TXCraig1 noted above, alpha and beta work differently.  A rough illustration is that alpha hacks the chains apart in the middle and beta nibbles on the ends.  They are most active at different temps, however.  Beta from roughly 131-150 (after which it begins to denature) and alpha from 154-162.  One of the major components of the brewer's art (and science) is manipulating mash temperatures to get the desired final product.  At these temps, we get complete conversion of the starches within two hours.  These temps and hydration, of course, don't apply to baking.

I suspect the milling process of grinding wheat endosperms into a fine powder flour breaks down some of the goodies due to the mechanical process--at the very least is exposes substantially more endosperm surface area so doesn't need as high hydration and might provide an environment amenable to enzymatic activity at relatively low temps.  Also, in baking you're not trying to convert all the starches as you do in a mash.  You're just trying to extract a little sweetness/flavor and nutrients for the yeast.

Also remember all of this directly relates to yeast metabolism.  When you add diastatic malt to a dough you are setting the yeast up for a buffet of maltose from the malt, any other sugars the manufacturer (like KA) added, and whatever the result of enzymatic conversion.

Personally, I wouldn't mess with diastatic malt without some confirmed science demonstrating its effects for the home baker.  Otherwise, you're working with an unknown variable.  When I get around to baking again I'm just going to get some dry malt extract from a homebrew supply shop.  Probably a lot cheaper than from a consumer baker's supplier, and it comes in different flavors that should be fun to play with.





 
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 31, 2016, 02:37:34 PM
Personally, I wouldn't mess with diastatic malt without some confirmed science demonstrating its effects for the home baker.  Otherwise, you're working with an unknown variable.

I don't think there is much question that the typical home baker benefits from diastatic malt - the professional baker too for that matter - in most pizza applications short of Neapolitan.  You're messing with it unless you seek out unmalted flour, right? It would seem the question is rather, how much is a good thing and how much is too much?

I was a big skeptic of adding extra DM until I tried it. Now I doubt if I'll ever make another home oven pizza without it.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: carl333 on May 31, 2016, 02:50:37 PM
I don't think there is much question that the typical home baker benefits from diastatic malt - the professional baker too for that matter - in most pizza applications short of Neapolitan.  You're messing with it unless you seek out unmalted flour, right? It would seem the question is rather, how much is a good thing and how much is too much?

I was a big skeptic of adding extra DM until I tried it. Now I doubt if I'll ever make another home oven pizza without it.

Craig, what percentage of DPM have you had good success with and what style of dough were you making? What about your ferment? CF, RT or a combo of both? High protein flour?

tks
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 31, 2016, 03:15:38 PM
Craig, what percentage of DPM have you had good success with and what style of dough were you making? What about your ferment? CF, RT or a combo of both? High protein flour?

tks

For NYish pies, I've been using 2% Low Diastatic Malt Powder (20 degree lintner). If I remember right, this is about 10X what Tom Lehmann recommends, so it would seem there is a pretty wide range to play in. Room temp ferment for 4-6 hours. The flour is either bromated Superlative (medium protein) or bromated All Trumps (high protein).
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: carl333 on May 31, 2016, 07:50:06 PM
For NYish pies, I've been using 2% Low Diastatic Malt Powder (20 degree lintner). If I remember right, this is about 10X what Tom Lehmann recommends, so it would seem there is a pretty wide range to play in. Room temp ferment for 4-6 hours. The flour is either bromated Superlative (medium protein) or bromated All Trumps (high protein).
Tks. I'm so curious about what DMP brings to the table. I'm going to try 2 doughs 1 with and without. I purchased the Hoosier brand but it doesn't  say low. Would u change the percentage from 2? I have absolutely  no idea of the difference. Tks
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 31, 2016, 07:56:11 PM
Tks. I'm so curious about what DMP brings to the table. I'm going to try 2 doughs 1 with and without. I purchased the Hoosier brand but it doesn't  say low. Would u change the percentage from 2? I have absolutely  no idea of the difference. Tks

I'd call them and find out the strength (degree lintner) and adjust accordingly, if necessary.

What I like about it is that I can get pizza with the flavor of a 24 hour room-temp dough in just a few hours. It seems like it might help enhance the crunch a bit as well.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: norma427 on May 31, 2016, 09:17:21 PM
Got a bigger bag of Central Milling diastatic malt the second time.  They included the dough scraper too.

Norma
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: carl333 on May 31, 2016, 09:21:40 PM
Got a bigger bag of Central Milling diastatic malt the second time.  They included the dough scraper too.

Normab

HI Norma. What improvements has DMP done to your dough?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: norma427 on May 31, 2016, 09:38:36 PM
HI Norma. What improvements has DMP done to your dough?

Carl,

I like the LDM in that is seems to ferment the dough better, even though cold water and a small amount of yeast is used.  I can also open up the dough balls easier after they are put in the heating cabinet.  Seems to give a little better oven spring.

Norma
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Mike O'Logical on June 01, 2016, 04:05:26 PM
I don't think there is much question that the typical home baker benefits from diastatic malt - the professional baker too for that matter - in most pizza applications short of Neapolitan.  You're messing with it unless you seek out unmalted flour, right? It would seem the question is rather, how much is a good thing and how much is too much?

I was a big skeptic of adding extra DM until I tried it. Now I doubt if I'll ever make another home oven pizza without it.

Never meant to suggest diastatic malt couldn't help, or was bad, or wrong to use.

The point I was trying to make goes more to the question you posed:  "how much is a good thing and how much is too much?"  Seems the answer is elusive.

Great that it works for you, but from this thread it doesn't work for everyone.  Might be worthwhile to further explore the concept, particularly separating the effects of maltose, whatever other ingredients might be present in a commercial DM, and enzymatic activity.  Which is really doing the most work in making the dough better?  Can't really tell without controlled experiments (and, ideally, lab testing).

Using a flour with added malted barley isn't "messing" with diastatic malt.  It's a known constant rather than an unknown variable.   :D



Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 01, 2016, 05:27:07 PM
Malted flour across multiple brands is hardly a constant. For that matter, the same flour in two different people's hands may not appear to be a constant. One thing about pizza making that many people don't realize until they have been at it for a while is that there are a lot of variables - many you won't understand the importance  of or how to control, and many that you won't even recognize let alone try to control. This is why when you try to imitate someone's formula and workflow, your pizza rarely looks the same as the original no matter how detailed the instructions. Often times you can get there, but you have to make some/many tweaks to accommodate your unique situation. The farther you move away from emergency doughs (which probably make up 99% of recipes found outside of this forum) and towards longer ferments, the more true this is.  That it doesn't work for everyone is likely a function of other uncontrolled variables introduced by that person - not the LDM or the ancillary ingredients. The only way to find out how much LDM/DMP, if any, is a good thing for you, in your unique situation, it to experiment. Try it at different levels and see what you learn. If it doesn't work for you, add it to your long list of other things that didn't work either. 

If you read back through this thread, you will see that I wasn't a fan of the idea initially either. Perhaps not for the same reason as you, but not a fan nonetheless. And while I disagree that you need to do controlled tests to understand the contributions (if any) of the non-malt ingredients in the LDM, perhaps ironically, it was reading scientific journal articles while researching this post http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41039.0 that got me thinking I was being foolish not to try it.

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 01, 2016, 06:23:24 PM
I'll say that when I first started using LDMP, I had a few failed results.  The crumb was gummy and the dough felt noticeably softer than what it typically does.  I later made adjustments to the amount of LDMP and the fermentation protocol and bingo, making some of the best products I've ever made.  If you're not getting the desired results, It's not the LDMP's fault and it isn't because it simple just doesn't work for some ppl.  Rather it is, as Craig noted, from some other controllable variable that is off.   From what I can tell, LDMP has enzymatic properties.  If you use too high of a %, ferment it too long at RT or warmer, you will get poor results.   Lately I have been making some of the best crusts I have ever made with Tartine bread, baguettes, NY, & pan pizza.  And of everything I'm Making, the best examples all have two things in common. Me and LDMP.   LDMP can give you better results but how much better also depends on your starting point.  LDMP won't fix major issues with your dough.  If your dough is off or makes a crappy product then LDMP won't make much of a difference.

I am also starting to experiment with dough improver and comparing it to doughs with LDMP.  And preliminary results are much more positive in favor of the LDMP.  Dough improver seems to give a softer crumb and less crunch and rise.  LDMP gives an improved lift, crunch, and indirectly a better crumb texture. 
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Mike O'Logical on June 01, 2016, 08:44:27 PM
One last time: I never said diastatic malt was bad.  The closest I came was to say that I, "personally," wouldn't use it.  The benefits I've read from the use of DM in baking have all been anecdotal, no explanation of how and why it makes the dough better--or what compounds contribute--or how to use it for maximum effect.  Putzing around with it until you figger out how it works in your particular environment seems--to me--a very 17th century approach.  That works for some people, which is fine by me.

I posted first in this thread because some people seemed to be struggling with using DM.  I offered some background information based on my first-hand experience with barley malt in its "natural environment."  I hoped it would help folks better understand how it works so they could better craft it to their own needs and wants in baking.  Along the way I also dropped a few opinions.

And that's all I have to say about that. 



Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 01, 2016, 09:15:18 PM
One last time: I never said diastatic malt was bad.

Why do you feel the need to imply that we said you said it was bad? Who said that???

Quote
The benefits I've read from the use of DM in baking have all been anecdotal, no explanation of how and why it makes the dough better--or what compounds contribute--or how to use it for maximum effect. 

You show up here a few weeks ago, read a few posts and conclude we are a bunch of dumb ass hicks that don't know sh^t about what is going on inside the dough?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Mike O'Logical on June 01, 2016, 11:02:43 PM
Why are you so grumpy, bro?  We're talking making pizza, not curing cancer or rocket surgery.  I've looked over my recent posts and don't think I've talked down to anyone (although past history suggests sometimes I'm wrong.  Go figure).  Repeatedly said my experience isn't in pizza making, but might have some info that could be helpful.  Maybe it's not helpful, but don't see the harm in trying of offer a different perspective.  Of course that may be my personal bias which is more information from disparate sources leads to greater understanding.  Which could very well be the wrong way to go about pizza making.

Why do you feel the need to imply that we said you said it was bad? Who said that???

If you read back through this thread, you will see that I wasn't a fan of the idea initially either. Perhaps not for the same reason as you, but not a fan nonetheless.


You show up here a few weeks ago, read a few posts and conclude we are a bunch of dumb ass hicks that don't know sh^t about what is going on inside the dough?

If you are bored or need a good laugh, check my account profile and note the date I registered.



Now I'm going off to sit in the corner with my dunce cap on and assume my proper RMPL position.


Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 01, 2016, 11:08:45 PM
No doubt I'm a grumpy old a$$ but I do know sh^t from shinola, and I also know I don't know about you RYP.  :o
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 01, 2016, 11:12:44 PM
Seriously though, some of us have spent a lot of time studying and "perfecting" (as in trying to be perfect but not claiming to be there) room temperature fermentation because we do understand that the Arrhenius equation applies to baking and that LDM is a tool in this effort.
Title: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on June 02, 2016, 12:29:52 AM
Personally, I wouldn't mess with diastatic malt without some confirmed science demonstrating its effects for the home baker.  Otherwise, you're working with an unknown variable.

I understand what you are saying, however, I think that it is not an unknown variable, it is simply another variable.

Science aside, like we can find out how much malt is added for malted flour by contacting the Miller, the science of falling numbers, fermentation time, litner number (analyst activity level)... Basically, yes, we understand in theory what is happening inside the dough...

We are not dealing with an unknown variable, but rather ANOTHER variable. No ones flour is exactly the same as the lab report from when it was milled. Yeast activity decreases with age, the water content of flour changes with time, relative humidity and temperature are always changing... No one tests all of these aspects in their home, let alone in the average professional setting.

In essence you are saying that unless you have a "test tube" dough, you don't want to try it because it is not scientific. But no one of us could ever really produce a test tube dough. There are averages that we work under regarding temperature, time, and ingredients that will give us a range of variables and similar outcomes.

Nothing needs to be proven about the benefit, the science is there otherwise millers wouldn't make malted barley nor would professional outfits like King Arthur recommend or use them.

I've been making a decent amount of French bread recently just trying to dial in my unmalted flour. And with doing an overnight poolish by the final rise, the dough is loosing steam in its ability to ferment. Why? Because it is unmalted. The yeasts amounts, the temperatures, the flour etc are all known variables and the results are not as optimal as with diastatic malt, also a known variable, to help keep the fermenting energy up and going all the way through the relatively short bulk and final ferment.  But it requires experimentation to dial it in. That doesn't make it unknown, it simply is another variable that we add to a set of other variables.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Mike O'Logical on June 02, 2016, 03:21:42 PM
How ‘bout we nail the coffin on this discussion so we can go our separate ways .

You show up here a few weeks ago, read a few posts and conclude we are a bunch of dumb ass hicks that don't know sh^t about what is going on inside the dough?

I may be confused, but it seems I’m the one being treated as a hayseed.  But, hey, I’ve only got 10 posts on the forum which means I must not have:

Spent over 30 years in the food industry including about every stop along the way from farm to table except driving trucks.  Products from meats to flours to shortenings to salts to sugars.

Worked for one of the country’s largest grain suppliers.

Run a craft brewery for several years where grains, yeast, and temperature control were of utmost concern.  Where I would plate out fresh yeast to select a colony from a single cell I could nurture into a culture large enough to ferment 300 gallons of wort.

Attended the most prestigious brewing school in the nation where I learned more about grain analysis, enzymatic activity, yeast behavior, water quality—and the synergism between them all—than I could ever use in our Podunk brewery.

Been a home baker for 30 years including bread, pastries, and pizza.

Associated with a CIA trained baker for a couple years from whom I learned much and who deemed my humble products as “pretty damn good.”

I could go on, but maybe those are all Walter Mitty-esque fantasies since I’m a “new poster.”


Wanna know the other reason I haven’t posted?    When I’m in the kitchen I’m making food, not doing lab experiments.  I like to color outside the lines.  A lot.  I’m always interested in new and different ways to approach things.  Always looking for more information.  When it comes to pizza, I’m less interested in replicating a commercial brand than putting my own twist on the root to see if I can make it better.  A lot of y’all seem way too OCD/defensive when it comes to pizza and forum groupthink—WHICH IS MY PERSONAL OPINION AND NOT MEANT TO BE DISPARAGING—different strokes and all that.  Unless, of course, the new info comes from the cool kids club.   

My philosophy has always been to judge information on its own merits (or lack thereof) rather than judging by who presented the information. 

Y’all take care.  I won’t bother you again.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 02, 2016, 03:34:18 PM
it seems I’m the one being treated as a hayseed.

Really? Care to cite an example of that - or of someone saying that you said DSM is bad as you have asserted several times.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 02, 2016, 04:41:01 PM
Lol.  Look who's being defensive now?  The credentials seem impressive but if you want forum cred, I'm gonna need to see a few pizza pics including a crumb shot or two.   :angel:
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Gianni5 on June 03, 2016, 04:53:30 PM
I recently started playing around with with LDM and after my first 2 attempts I wasn sold. Today was my 3rd attempt and honestly I think it might be the best NY dough I've ever made. Here are some pics. The cornicione is a little exaggerated but otherwise it was pretty spot on.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jackie Tran on June 03, 2016, 05:13:28 PM
That pie looks awesome.  Exactly my sentiment about LDM.  I had a few failures with it but My best pizzas and bread have all had LDMP.   It can't be coincidence. 
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on June 03, 2016, 05:18:26 PM
G5, yes it does look really good...but please tell how the malt made it so good..so far with my long ferment times, this has eluded me...Is it the flavor, and if so, what's the difference? Is it texture, handling?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Gianni5 on June 03, 2016, 06:20:40 PM
When I said in my previous post that my first 2 attempts failed I think that was due to a longer fermentation.  I was doing 2% LDM and 24 hours bulk, then balled for another 24 hours for a total of 48 hr.  My third attempt (pictured in my last post) was 1.5% then 8 hours bulk, and about 18 hours balled. 
 It's hard to pinpoint exactly how the malt effected the dough.  I've made thousands of pizzas but am in no way an expert as far as the science of baking goes.  For me at the restaurant for our work flow and space restrictions 24-36 hours is about as long a fermentation time as we can do.  That's why I decided to experiment further with the LDM because I had read on the forum that it could be beneficial for shorter fermentation's and this particular time I found it to be true. The dough handled really well, was crisp and tender and light all at the same time
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on June 04, 2016, 07:18:37 AM
Thanks so much, Gianni...This goes along with what I thought and why I haven't had success with the malt (yet).

The time frames you're talking about are all CF, is that right? What is the approximate temp in a walk-in? (in case you had any doubts I was a rank  amateur, they are now dispelled :-D )


Pros who are constantly improving themselves here...when the public will accept far less..is so impressive to me! Not to mention sharing their knowledge with home bakers..guys like you, John Fazzari and many others here..Bravo
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on June 07, 2016, 07:15:01 PM
 Wanted to see if I could make the malt work for me, so I tried a fast dough..really fast. Mixed this around noon and by 3:30  I put it in fridge to hold for a while. GMFS 64% HR, .4 IDY, 2% salt, sugar and LDM. Since I'm so used to longer fermented doughs, I was hopeful but not expecting much out of this one. But it was quite a pleasant surprise. For a fast dough, very flavorful and quite easy to work with. 1/4 steel in home oven, launch at 650 (broiler was on during last part of preheat) , then back to 550 back for about 6 1/2 minutes, the some broil for extra color.   



 
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: carl333 on August 10, 2016, 01:04:01 PM
Does anyone know the litner value of Hoosier Hill Farms DMP? I emailed them for a response and never received a reply.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: the1mu on September 05, 2016, 09:06:14 PM
Out of curiosity, what is the highest anyone has gone with DMP? Obviously, the lintner value is important here but I'm still curious.

I'm contemplating going high (highest so far is 2%) like up to 4 as an experiment and just see what happens.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on September 07, 2016, 05:23:25 PM
Does anyone know the litner value of Hoosier Hill Farms DMP? I emailed them for a response and never received a reply.

If it's this one, the number is actually 60, according to their website:

https://hoosierhillfarm.com/Hoosier-Hill-Farm-Dry-Malt-Diastatic-baking-Powder-1.5-lb..html
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on September 07, 2016, 05:37:28 PM
Red Star has a 60 degrees Lintner diastatic malt powder and the recommended usage is 0.5-5%. Pure diastatic malt can have a degrees Lintner of over 200.

http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-dry-malt-product-60

Peter

EDIT (11/15/16): For the Wayback Machine version of the above inoperative link, see http://web.archive.org/web/20141207042746/http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-dry-malt-product-60
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: carl333 on September 08, 2016, 10:47:24 AM
If it's this one, the number is actually 60, according to their website:

https://hoosierhillfarm.com/Hoosier-Hill-Farm-Dry-Malt-Diastatic-baking-Powder-1.5-lb..html

TY Mike for pointing that out. I missed it on their website. That's the one I have.

rgds
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: sodface on December 29, 2016, 09:53:55 AM
Confession and apology:  I haven't read this entire thread, a lot of it, but not every post.

I'm a little confused on the different products.  I ordered this stuff back in February and haven't even used it because my wife thinks it's some kind of chemical:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B013ADVPZC/

I'd barely read anything about it on here before ordering and pretty quickly realized that I wasn't sure what I'd ordered or why I'd ordered it.  The stuff in the link is diastatic vs low or non diastatic and is 210 Lintner according to the Amazon description though it doesn't say that on the bag anywhere.

It calls itself diastatic "Malted Barley Flour".  Both the KABF and Bob's bread flours I have list "Malted Barley Flour" as an ingredient.  Is the malted barley flour listed in the flour ingredients list similar to or the same thing as the diastatic malt being discussed in this thread?  I know that's an imprecise question.

I guess this is my confusion:
- I *think* that the inclusion of malted barley flour in the ingredient list is the same thing as adding diastatic malt to a flour that does not include malted barley flour in the ingredient list.
- If the above statement is true how do you know what each flour manufacturer is actually adding and in what quantities?
- In Tony's book (again, which I haven't read in it's entirety) the master dough recipe calls for adding 9g diastatic malt to one of various flours: All Trumps, Pendleton Flour Mills Power, Giusto’s High Performer, King Arthur Sir Lancelot Unbleached Hi-Gluten, or Tony’s California Artisan Flour.  All Trumps clearly states "Malted Barley Flour" in the ingredient list but the PFM flour doesn't though it does say "Enzyme added for improved baking".  I can't find an ingredient list for Tony's flour.

So again, if having malted barley flour in the ingredient list is like having DMP added from the mill, why does Tony's master dough recipe add 9g of DMP when using any of the above flours when it's not clear what you are starting with?  Further, I wonder why Tony didn't just have it added to his namesake custom flour from the get go?

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 29, 2016, 11:28:30 AM
What you ordered is organic barley seed that has been sprouted, dried, and ground into flour - all done in such a way as to not deactivate the enzymes. There is nothing unnatural about it.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: sodface on December 29, 2016, 12:44:57 PM
What you ordered is organic barley seed that has been sprouted, dried, and ground into flour - all done in such a way as to not deactivate the enzymes. There is nothing unnatural about it.

Yes I know, I didn't word my post correctly as usual.  *I* know it's a natural product and I've explained that to my wife but *she* thinks it's some kind of weird additive and wouldn't eat it if I told her it was in there and I'm not deceitful enough to put it in without telling her.  So I haven't used it.

When I said I didn't know what I bought, I was talking more about the diastatic vs low or non diastatic and the Lintner rating.  In other words, I know what I have now but I didn't know at the time of purchase the different variants that were available, so I basically bought something and then figured out later more about what I bought.

Is the "Malted Barley Flour" listed in the ingredient list of a flour like KABF the same thing as the "Diastatic Malted Barley Flour" I ordered?  If so how do you know what Lintner rating and what QTY is added to KABF from the mill?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: sodface on December 29, 2016, 01:10:22 PM
Actually Craig, I think your reply here (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34845.msg433702#msg433702) sort of answers my question?

Quote from: TXCraig1
I don't think there is much question that the typical home baker benefits from diastatic malt - the professional baker too for that matter - in most pizza applications short of Neapolitan.  You're messing with it unless you seek out unmalted flour, right? It would seem the question is rather, how much is a good thing and how much is too much?

So you are saying or seem to be saying that when you bake something with a malted flour (the ingredient list includes Malted Barley Flour) you are by default using Diastatic Malt since it was added to the flour by the mill.  The question then becomes whether to add more and if so how much right?  Which was kind of my original question(s).

Tony's master recipe says to add 9g to any of the number of flours he lists.  How do you know what the net result is if you don't know what you are starting with?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 29, 2016, 01:12:04 PM
You can tell her that is no weirder than flour. The word 'diastatic' simply means having the property of converting starch to sugar. All flour is diastatic to some extent even if there is no malted barley added. Most all the flour sold in the grocery store has diastatic malted barley flour (for all intents and purposes the same as what you bought) OR bacterially-produced diastatic enzymes added. In the case of the latter, the ingredient list would simply say "enzymes," or maybe something like "enzymes added to enhance browning."

There is probably no way of knowing how much barley malt is added to most flours. I think that's generally proprietary information the miller doesn't publish. It really doesn't matter though. You will likely need to test and tweak to find out how much works best for you. There are lots of other variables that could affect it. Yours is 10X more concentrated than LDM, however LDM often has dextrose or other ingredients which may enhance browning, so it may not scale linearly.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on December 29, 2016, 02:20:13 PM
Carl,

What you have is basically a pure barley malt, which is a cereal source of diastatic malt, and it is not a poison. Most millers add barley malt to their flours, although there are exceptions, such as some organic flours, 00 flours and 00 copycat flours. As noted at Reply 23 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11549.msg106388#msg106388, General Mills adds about 0.1-0.2% barley malt to its flours. Their barely malt is the pure stuff, with a degrees Lintner number of 210. There is no form of sugar, such as dextrose, or added wheat flour as is typically used to make a LDM type of product, which typically has a degrees Lintner number far less than 210 (the Red Star 20L and 60L products are good examples). Pendleton Mills (now Grain Craft) uses a fungal form of amylase, as is noted in Reply 197 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8247.msg414363#msg414363. There is also a bacterial form of amylase. Tony G is a proponent of adding additional malt to the flours that can be used to make his pizza doughs, even though those flours have barley malt or fungal amylase already in them. So long as one uses the type of LDM product Tony recommends, and in the quantities he recommends, there should not be an overdosing of the final flour with the diastatic enzyme.

In your case, if you decide to use the barley malt you purchased, you will have to scale down the amount to use should you wish to practice Tony G's recipes. Or any other recipe for that matter that calls for a LDM type product.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: sodface on December 29, 2016, 02:49:08 PM
Thanks Craig and Peter.  I think I've now got a better understanding of what's in my cupboard and how to use it.  I'd still like to know what the ingredient list of Tony's California flour is to see whether it contains Malted Barley Flour.  If it does, I wonder why he didn't formulate it so the home pizza baker didn't need to purchase and add DMP as a separate ingredient?  I guess maybe he intends the flour to be used in other recipes where the added DMP isn't desired.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: sodface on December 29, 2016, 03:36:14 PM
According to my calculations, the 8oz bag I bought would be good for about 230 18" pizzas with my current dough formula.  About 3.5 cents per pizza.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on December 29, 2016, 03:39:45 PM
Carl,

The Central Milling website does not indicate whether Tony's flour as noted at https://centralmilling.com/product/tony-gemignanis-california-artisan-type-00-pizza-blend/ contains added barley malt. You can read some comments about people using malt with that flour, at http://store.thepizzabible.com/products/tonys-artisan-00, but it is still not clear whether the flour itself is malted.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: sodface on December 29, 2016, 04:47:21 PM
Carl,

The Central Milling website does not indicate whether Tony's flour as noted at https://centralmilling.com/product/tony-gemignanis-california-artisan-type-00-pizza-blend/ contains added barley malt. You can read some comments about people using malt with that flour, at http://store.thepizzabible.com/products/tonys-artisan-00, but it is still not clear whether the flour itself is malted.

Peter

I guess the point I've been trying to make (and determine if my point is accurate or not) is that it seems sort of analogous to buying self-rising flour and then adding more baking powder/soda to it.  Who knows, there's probably recipes that call for that.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: sodface on December 31, 2016, 01:43:14 AM
Sorry to keep blabbing about this, especially since the more posts I read (this thread and in the more flavor in dough thread) I usually find my question has been asked and answered - Peter your patience astounds in this regard.  Many of your lengthy, polite, and well researched and referenced replies could be shortened to: "use the search tool".  :-D

Anyway, I wanted to just make a couple more comments, first about the breadtopia DMP I bought.  It's actually a Briess product, spec sheet here:
http://breadtopia.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Briess_Specs.pdf

The applications section of the spec sheet includes "pizza crust", ok that's good.  It also mentions that it "enhances browning".  However, on this page:
http://www.briess.com/food/Products/mimbf.php#apps
it says this:

Quote
Use small amounts of high enzyme malt flours, like Malted Barley Flour Whole Grain and Malted Wheat Flour, for dough conditioning without additional flavor or color. Use larger amounts of low enzyme malt flours, like Munich 10L Malted Barley Flour Whole Grain, or Maltorose™ Dough Improver, for a lesser degree of dough conditioning but for additional flavor and color.

I bolded the bit about flavor and color.  The color part seems to contradict the spec sheet.  And the paragraph as a whole might be a little different than what's being said here about looking at the degrees Lintner and adjusting quantities accordingly.  I think Craig kind of says it here:

Quote from: TXCraig1
Yours is 10X more concentrated than LDM, however LDM often has dextrose or other ingredients which may enhance browning, so it may not scale linearly.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that it seems like the LDM in Tony's dough formula is being used more for flavor and color and less for dough conditioning.  The higher Lintner product I bought seems more geared for dough conditioning and less for flavor and color.  So by reducing the amount used proportionally to Tony's LDM amount (which would put it in the recommended range of no more than .5% of flour weight) I would get the dough conditioning that it was designed for but not the flavor and color of the LDM that Tony uses.  So I'm not sure the results of using what I have (210L) would be the same results as using the 20L malt powder even if I adjust the quantity proportionally.  Using the 210L vs the 20L, even in the correct quantity might (will?) change the fermentation rate also so following times in the book might be challenging.

I guess I'm just wondering if I try this 210L product and I don't like it or don't notice much of a difference I might be tempted to write off DMP altogether thinking that the 20L would give me the same result (but with using more by % flour) where that might not actually be the case.

Anyway, it's 1:30 in the morning, and I'm not planning on using Tony's methods anyway!!  I was just trying to figure out how best to use what I bought and what benefits I might get from it.  Of course the best thing to do would be to try it  :o

/ramble off

//edit - I think when they say color they mean crumb color and when they say browning they mean the exterior.  So color and browning are two different things.



Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 31, 2016, 09:11:38 AM
The manufacturer's comments on functionality largely relate to a commercial environment. You seem to be interpreting them to be the same for home use, and it may not be that simple. There are a ton of variables you are not considering. I also doubt your browning/color distinction is correct.

Nothing screws up pizza like overthinking.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: sodface on December 31, 2016, 09:41:56 AM
Nothing screws up pizza like overthinking.

 :-D

Not that there has to be, but, is there a recommendation or general consensus here on the forum regarding the use of the various DMPs?  Is it:

A. The various DMPs are all basically the same, just look at the degree Lintner rating and adjust quantities accordingly to achieve the same results.
B. The DMPs have some similarities but are not the same.  Substituting a higher or lower Lintner DMP then a recipe calls for, even if you proportionally adjust the quantities, may impact fermentation and handling and yield a different finished product.  Try it and see.
C. The DMPs are formulated differently for a reason.  Use what the recipe calls for to achieve the results the author intended - do not substitute and expect the result to be consistent with the author's.
D. None of the above.

I've read most of this thread and some other posts in other threads and I'm not sure what the prevailing wisdom is.  But you're right, I'm probably spending way too much time thinking about it.

Regarding color and browning:

http://www.briess.com/food/Processes/maltclasses.php#standard

Quote
Standard Malt-Diastatic

Standard Malted Barley Flour is the functional malt ingredient milled from standard diastatic malt. In baking, high enzyme levels make diastatic malted barley flour an effective dough conditioner as a minor ingredient, often less than 1 percent, that adds no flavor or color to the crumb. The benefits of diastatic malted barley flour include increased fermenation, decreased proofing time, improved machinability and extensibility, enhanced crumb and browning of crust, and little or no flavor contributions.

Emphasis added.  No color to crumb but enhanced browning of crust.  That seems to imply color and browning are two different things.

//edit, further down the same page is the description for the other DMPs, adding here for reference:
Quote
Specialty Malts-Diastatic

Diastatic specialty malts are dried further during kilning to develop intense bakery-type flavors, such as malty, biscuity, or nutty, while preserving some enzymatic activity. Because they have reduced enzyme levels, Diastatic Specialty Malt flours are used at higher levels (up to 3 percent) to contribute more crumb flavor and color to breads, pizza crusts, and other yeast-fermented dough systems. Benefits of Diastatic Specialty Malt flours include enhanced flavor and enhanced color.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on December 31, 2016, 09:59:43 AM
Carl,

All of this can get quite confusing. But I think it might be helpful to keep the differences between malt products in mind and how they can be used. For example, the 210L product you have is pure barley malt flour. It is what millers typically use to malt their flours when using a cereal-based malt as opposed to a fungal or bacterial diastatic enzyme. As previously mentioned, General Mills uses about 0.1-0.2%. That is a very safe amount for most bakers. It is also a safe amount to use when one wants to malt an unmalted flour, such as some unmalted organic flours (and 00 flours for doughs to be baked in lower temperature ovens). The amount of crust coloration one will get will depend on the amount of the 210L product used. If too much is used in order to get increased crust coloration, then it may turn out that the dough is conditioned too much and will likely end up being wet, soft and sticky.

By contrast, the lower degrees Lintner malt products, unlike the 210L product, are some combination of barley malt, a form of sugar (usually dextrose), and wheat flour. The combinations and sequencing of ingredients in the ingredients statements can vary from one source to another, yet have the same degrees Lintner numbers, so some experimentation may be needed to determine the best amount of the selected product to use to get the desired results. But with the LDM products, you get crust coloration from both the barley malt and the dextrose. Again, it is possible to use too much and end up with too much dough conditioning. It would help to know how much barley malt, dextrose and wheat flour are used in each LDM product but that information is generally proprietary although I managed to coax a AB Mauri product development specialist to tell me how much barley malt flour is used for their 20L product. It is about 25-40%, as I so noted at Reply 169 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34845.msg353229;topicseen#msg353229. That value compares with 100% barley malt flour for the 210L (and higher) malt products.

In your case, you may have to scale back on the amount of 210L product and maybe add some sugar or dextrose if you have it if you want to simulate a 20L product. Again, because all LDM products of a given degrees Lintner number are not identical, some experimentation may be needed. But if you only want to get more enzyme activity, leave out the sugar or dextrose but don't go too far over 0.1-0.2% and take whatever crust coloration that amount contributes to the finished crust. And if that works and produces good results, you can gradually increase the amount in small steps, and stop and recalibrate when the dough gets too wet or soft or sticky.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 31, 2016, 10:27:15 AM
Nothing screws up pizza like overthinking.

:-D

It wasn't meant to be funny.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: sodface on December 31, 2016, 10:41:40 AM
It wasn't meant to be funny.

The  :-D wasn't meant to indicate I was laughing at what you said, but rather at myself for being dense.  Definitely time for me to move on from this topic.

@Peter

Thanks for the reply and suggestions.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 31, 2016, 10:44:13 AM
Don't stress. Make pizza.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: icemanxp300 on April 20, 2018, 06:17:09 PM
OK, so a few years ago when I first set-out to make my own pizza I ran across some TG videos and he mentioned using malt. I couldn't find it locally so I moved on to sugar. Fast forward to now, as I get better, I understand more and look for ways to improve.

Last night I started watching some videos again and everything makes way more sense now. I did run across something last night that is what I consider very important, I'll tell you in a minute. I have my wife getting me the Pizza Bible for my b-day in a few weeks. At that point I fully intend to see if this is covered in his book. I literally just read almost this entire thread, I did skim a few off topic replies. I have seen this question asked a few times w/no replies.

If you go in to 5 minutes in this video TG talks about malt and he says if you use sugar it is 3 times as much as malt. That to me is very good to know. I plan on getting my hands on some LDM here to see the difference it makes, if anyone wants to sell me a smaller amount that would be great. I would be wanting the AB Mouri stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdP3MmLGNy8&t=879s
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on April 20, 2018, 06:24:49 PM
OK, so a few years ago when I first set-out to make my own pizza I ran across some TG videos and he mentioned using malt. I couldn't find it locally so I moved on to sugar. Fast forward to now, as I get better, I understand more and look for ways to improve.

Last night I started watching some videos again and everything makes way more sense now. I did run across something last night that is what I consider very important, I'll tell you in a minute. I have my wife getting me the Pizza Bible for my b-day in a few weeks. At that point I fully intend to see if this is covered in his book. I literally just read almost this entire thread, I did skim a few off topic replies. I have seen this question asked a few times w/no replies.

If you go in to 5 minutes in this video TG talks about malt and he says if you use sugar it is 3 times as much as malt. That to me is very good to know. I plan on getting my hands on some LDM here to see the difference it makes, if anyone wants to sell me a smaller amount that would be great. I would be wanting the AB Mouri stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdP3MmLGNy8&t=879s

http://nybakers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=60
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: icemanxp300 on April 20, 2018, 06:35:30 PM
It is a 1lb they are selling. I thought it was a 5lb.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on April 20, 2018, 06:40:14 PM
It is a 1lb they are selling. I thought it was a 5lb.

I believe the only 5lb bag you can get is from Central Milling. 1lb goes a long way, though.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 20, 2018, 07:55:17 PM
I believe the only 5lb bag you can get is from Central Milling. 1lb goes a long way, though.

I think Central Milling quit selling it altogether.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on April 20, 2018, 08:08:28 PM
I think Central Milling quit selling it altogether.

Craig,

I saw it on the shelves in their retail shop about 10 days ago when I was up there. CM doesn't have it on their website but KGBS has it listed. Maybe people have to call in and order?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 20, 2018, 08:11:51 PM
Craig,

I saw it on the shelves in their retail shop about 10 days ago when I was up there. CM doesn't have it on their website but KGBS has it listed. Maybe people have to call in and order?

I just noticed some time ago that they don't list it on their website any more which is kind of curious if they still sell it. First the stopped listing the 5#, then the 1# disappeared too.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mitchjg on April 20, 2018, 08:12:45 PM
http://nybakers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=60

NY Bakers has it.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on April 20, 2018, 08:16:51 PM
I just noticed some time ago that they don't list it on their website any more which is kind of curious if they still sell it. First the stopped listing the 5#, then the 1# disappeared too.

I noticed that, too.

Here's what's listed on the KGBS. A bit confusing, to say the least... ???

http://www.kgbakerysupply.com/bakery-supply-products#yeast-conditioners
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: jvp123 on April 21, 2018, 06:07:32 PM
Hey guys, quick question .. is the LDM adding much in terms of flavor or is it mostly just for color? 

edit:  I've been reducing my 20L LDM (AB Mauri) to the point where I am only at .20 and going to .15.  I think I am getting plenty of flavor and color due to my poolish and 2 or 3 day CFs.  Plus my flour already has malt being that I use Power flour and King Arthur AP flour.

Thinking of losing it all together soon.  Is it mainly for those doing quicker ferments (without a preferment) and need the color and flavor boost?



Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: scott123 on April 21, 2018, 09:18:56 PM
Hey guys, quick question .. is the LDM adding much in terms of flavor or is it mostly just for color?

Flavor, color and texture: 

Umami
Sweetness
Improved browning from residual sugars and amino acids
Tenderizing via proteolysis
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 21, 2018, 09:21:01 PM
Flavor, color and texture: 

Umami
Sweetness
Improved browning from residual sugars and amino acids
Tenderizing via proteolysis

I'm still calling BS on that one in any realistic scenario. Don't really believe the umami either.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: icemanxp300 on April 22, 2018, 12:13:35 AM
Well based off reply 123 in this thread the AB Mauri LDMP has 105 calories per 30g. Looking up calories for Domino Sugar it is 15 calories for 4g so 30g would be 112.5 calories. So the LDMP alone has less calories. Then if you figure in what Tony Gemignani said about using 3 times as much sugar as compared to malt. Theoretically you cut the sugar calories down by 1/3.

Plus not really related to the thread but Tony G said that having a 1-2 day cf is good because it gives the yeast time to eat and break down the sugars. I am not 100% sure if he was saying our bodies digest less of the sugars as a result, but he def. said we digest better and we feel better as a result.

32 min. in if you want to hear that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyfktmYqbRo
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Essen1 on April 22, 2018, 01:07:09 AM
Flavor, color and texture: 

Umami
Sweetness
Improved browning from residual sugars and amino acids
Tenderizing via proteolysis

Can we stop overthinking?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: jvp123 on April 22, 2018, 01:16:18 AM

With my convection oven and 2-3 day CF, I don’t use any sugar and .20% LDM and easily get browning. I’m not sure I need it at all for browning and may test that soon.

I suspect if I were doing a same day dough it would be more necessary.

 

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: norma427 on April 22, 2018, 07:26:07 AM

Hey guys, quick question .. is the LDM adding much in terms of flavor or is it mostly just for color? 


Jeff,

I didn't do controlled experiments with using the regular formulation and also adding LDM, but didn't see much of any differences in adding LDM, expect the dough seemed to open a little easier. That was with a two day cold ferment using malted and bromated flour and added sugar.  Used it for months and then stopped when I couldn't purchase the LDM in a 5 lb. bag.  Just a few weeks ago added LDM again and didn't see enough of any difference to keep using LDM.  Didn't notice any flavor change in the crust.

Norma
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on April 23, 2018, 01:45:31 PM
Jeff,


For me, it definitely adds a complexity of flavor to my (rare)  same-day and next-day doughs...I actually was very pleasantly surprised. But for longer doughs, in my admittedly limited sample, it doesn't do anything for me, and if used in even slightly too high quantity ,is a negative  adding gumminess  .I can't quite recall how it affected the finished crumb, but I do remember it wasn't a good thing..
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Rolls on April 23, 2018, 06:22:58 PM
For me, it definitely adds a complexity of flavor to my (rare)  same-day and next-day doughs...I actually was very pleasantly surprised. But for longer doughs, in my admittedly limited sample, it doesn't do anything for me, and if used in even slightly too high quantity ,is a negative  adding gumminess  .I can't quite recall how it affected the finished crumb, but I do remember it wasn't a good thing..

I was under the impression that diastatic malt was more suitable for indirect methods using preferments.  The malt is added in the second phase of mixing to increase fermentable sugars.  I guess it still has its place in direct doughs that are fermented for extended times.  In any case, I agree that an overdose of malt, like most other additives, is never a good thing.


Rolls
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Brent-r on June 25, 2018, 08:29:12 AM
we have been having fun with SD breads and pizza dough and find the topic of malting interesting.  The flours we use are either home ground which are for sure unmalted, and a flour from Arva Flour Mill (arvaflourmill.com) who claim "no preservatives bleaches or enhancers".

After reading the Pizza Bibble and several links with in this forum I decided to do a little test.  I very carefully and accurately put some fresh Arva, sourdough and water in two jars and then added about 1/8 tsp diastatic malt to one.  I expected that malt to make more sugars available to the the SD yeasts and we would see a faster rise.  If it happened that way it was a very small change.  The first photos below are about 12 hours.  The SD had risen to its peak at room temp and then began to collapse.  If there was no difference in the rise rate there sure was in the decline rate.  The SD with the malt collapsed MUCH slower than the plain.  The second picture is about 22 hours after mixing and there is still a considerable difference.   So is the yeast in the malted one getting more sugars and feeding longer or is the gluten forming better in the malted jar holding the gas better.  (PS  the jars are Weck jars from Crate and Barrel and with the straight walls inside are much better to work with than standard preserves jars )

Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Brent-r on June 25, 2018, 11:05:55 AM
I decided to continue with this and feed the SD again this morning.   What was interesting was that when I stirred in exactly equal amounts of water, before adding more flour .... the levels in the jars became virtually equal.  This makes me suspect a difference in the (amount of) gluten and that it was holding more gas.   So I added in more flour and will see what happens during the day.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on June 25, 2018, 01:10:11 PM
Brent,

With respect to the question you raised in your opening post, I would say that the results you achieved using the diastatic malt were due to the diastatic malt acting on the damaged starch in the flour to create more sugars to feed the SD. Gluten is formed by the addition of water or another liquid to the flour and then mixing. You may have done a bit of that in mixing the diastatic malt into the SD but if you didn't overmix the SD with the diastatic malt and otherwise treated both forms of the SD the same, the gluten development should have been minor. There may also have been some biochemical gluten development over time but, again, if you treated both forms of the SD the same, that difference might also have pretty much washed.

You can read more about how gluten is formed in normal doughs in the post at Reply 5 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=929.msg8419#msg8419

You can also read about the role of diastatic malt at Reply 46 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17555.msg179560;topicseen#msg179560

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Makisupapoliceman on July 16, 2018, 08:35:33 PM
Hi please forgive me, but I did not read thru this whole thread. I just ordered non diastatic malt powder. is this compatible with pizza making? I meant to order low diastatic but made a mistake. hope this can work! :pizza:
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 16, 2018, 08:53:17 PM
Non diastatic malt is just a flavoring/sweetener/sugar alternative. It's not enzymatically active and will not serve the same function as diastatic malt.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: john_k on February 26, 2019, 10:45:10 AM
Here is a source for Tony Gemignani's choice of LDMP.
http://www.giovannispecialties.com/product/tony-gemignani-low-diastatic-malt/
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Brent-r on March 04, 2019, 11:13:57 AM
while looking around for sources of diastatic malt in Canada I stumbled on this that is worth a giggle :D
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: mrmafix on February 05, 2020, 02:39:24 PM
What is the difference between DMP and LDMP?  If I’ve been using DMP and a recipe calls for LDMP, can I modify the amount to reach the LDMP value?
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: icemanxp300 on April 20, 2020, 09:31:05 AM
What is the difference between DMP and LDMP?  If I’ve been using DMP and a recipe calls for LDMP, can I modify the amount to reach the LDMP value?

In the first 2 pages of this thread it was stated the DMP is just a sweetener like sugar where as LDMP isn't really a sweetener and more so helps break down the complex sugars in the flour. You want a low lintner for the DMP hence LDMP.

So to answer your question as far as I understand it, no. You are using a malt that performs differently. LDMP is not the same as DMP. DMP is only a sweetener, it doesn't react with the flour the same as LDMP.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on April 20, 2020, 10:12:46 AM
In the first 2 pages of this thread it was stated the DMP is just a sweetener like sugar where as LDMP isn't really a sweetener and more so helps break down the complex sugars in the flour. You want a low lintner for the DMP hence LDMP.

So to answer your question as far as I understand it, no. You are using a malt that performs differently. LDMP is not the same as DMP. DMP is only a sweetener, it doesn't react with the flour the same as LDMP.
icemanxp300,

As you can see if you look at the definitions given in the forum's Pizza Glossary for DMP and LDMP (Lintner value), at https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#index_d and at https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#linter, respectively, you will see that both DMP and LDMP are diastatic malts.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: icemanxp300 on April 20, 2020, 10:49:51 AM
icemanxp300,

As you can see if you look at the definitions given in the forum's Pizza Glossary for DMP and LDMP (Lintner value), at https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#index_d and at https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#linter, respectively, you will see that both DMP and LDMP are diastatic malts.

Peter

Of course they are, that's what the DM stands for in each. From my understanding the LDMP reacts differently than DMP does when formulated into a dough mixture. Maybe I misunderstood it, but if LDMP acts the same as sugar or DMP just in lower amounts what's the point? Just use sugar and call it a day.


I was under the assumption that the LDMP helped with breaking down the sugars in the flour making it digest better when you ate it. I don't think the LDMP has much to do with taste.
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on April 20, 2020, 12:05:07 PM
icemanxp300,

My recollection is that members of the forum started to use LDMP in their doughs because Tony Gemignani recommended it in his book, The Pizza Bible, and included it several of his dough recipes in his book. To the extent that one uses a malted flour, it would not make much sense to add a high degrees Lintner value DMP, which is what millers usually add to their flours, since that would raise the total amount of malt in the dough to a level that would cause damage to the dough, by making it overly soft and damp and hard to handle. However, adding a small amount of LDMP to a flour that is already malted is unlikely to cause any harm if it is the proper LDMP form from a degrees Lintner standpoint. To this end, today I went back to Tony's book and looked at why he recommends using a small amount of diastatic malt, to wit:

MALT

Malt is sometimes called the European baker's secret because it's frequently used for breads and other baked goods there. It's also a wonderful secret ingredient for baking pizzas in a conventional home oven, which can't reach the temperature of a pizzeria oven. A small amount of malt added to your dough will help it brown and will give it a subtle nutty-caramel sweetness in lower temperatures. If you're planning to bake your pizza on a grill, in a wood-burning oven, or using the broiler method (see page 202)--all of which can give you temperatures higher than 650 degrees F--you should omit the malt from your dough.

The above excerpt is the first paragraph in Tony's book under MALT at page 16. In the two succeeding paragraphs, Tony discusses how malt is made and also the differences between diastatic malt and nondiastatic malt. Those paragraphs are standard descriptions.

Apart from the differences between DMP and LDMP as noted above, most LDMP products contain a form of sugar, usually dextrose. Offhand, I don't recall why the added sugar is used as part of the LDMP but I suspect it enhances browning.

We have had several members decide to drop LDMP from their doughs and just use table sugar, often for the reason you mentioned. In some cases, members, especially those outside of the U.S., can't easily find diastatic malt in their countries so they are pretty much stuck with table sugar.

As for your comment "I was under the assumption that the LDMP helped with breaking down the sugars in the flour making it digest better when you ate it. I don't think the LDMP has much to do with taste", I could not find anything in this thread that said that LDMP improves digestion. Member Marco (pizzanapoletana) often talked about problems with digestion but it was in the context of a dough not fermenting long enough. See, for example, Reply 4 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1942.msg17216;topicseen#msg17216

I sometimes wonder what would have happened if Tony did not recommend using a small amount of diastatic malt to the flours used in his recipes in his book, especially for flours that are already malted at the mill.

Peter
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: icemanxp300 on April 20, 2020, 09:09:06 PM
Well I kind of linked 2 and 2 together to get the digestion thing :)

In the past I have heard Tony mention that having a cold fermented dough makes it easier to digest because the yeast breaks down the simple sugars of the flour. He says the yeast does the work for you. He recommends at least a 24hr CF but a 2 day is better and a 3 day is excellent. I can rummage through YouTube to find that but I'm pretty sure he mentioned in in one of his seminars he had listed on YouTube.

Now go to post 21 in this thread from Norma and you will find this: "As for Malt the one I recommend is Low Diastatic Malt from Central Milling. The best around. With it being Diastatic it will help the breakdown of complex sugars as well as assisting in browning, a vehicle for yeast and simple sugar."

I guess it really doesn't state it has to be low Diatstic malt, that was just the kind he recommended. Later on it just says DM will help breakdown complex sugars. Which takes me back to the above statement about helping the yeast break down the sugars in the flour to make it easier to digest.

Ok I found it. Go to 32:20 and listen for a few minutes to Tony talking about Digestibility.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyfktmYqbRo
Title: Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
Post by: Pete-zza on April 21, 2020, 10:13:56 AM
icemanxp300,

What Tony says in the video about digestibility is essentially what Marco (pizzanapoletana) discussed in the post I cited. Marco further expanded on the matter of digestibility toward the end of the post at Reply 24 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=656.msg11520#msg11520

As for the LDM that Tony G recommends, and as noted by Norma in Reply 21, Central Milling sells the 20 degrees Lintner product, as noted at:

https://kgbakerysupply.com/bakery-supply-products#yeast-conditioners

It would be possible to use a regular DMP malt with a degrees Lintner of around 200, but one would have to use just enough to be equivalent to 20 degrees Lintner if one wants to use the recipes in Tony's book. Most people using Tony's book are unlikely to know how to do this. As a side note, when Mike (Boy Hits Car) and I created the expanded dough calculating tool at https://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded-calculator.html, the only diastatic malt that we were aware of at the time was the very high degrees Lintner product in the SELFNutritionData database. Even today, the only diastatic malt product in that database is the one we used. There are no LDMP products in the database.

In the video you cited, I did not hear a connection between using LDMP and digestibility. There may well be such a connection but I don't know whether using the amounts called for in Tony's recipes would have that effect or the extent of that effect.

Peter