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  • #41 by mkevenson on 08 Nov 2014
  • I was going to drive to Giusto's today. Dang they are only open when I work. BooHiss.
    Mark
  • #42 by mitchjg on 08 Nov 2014
  • Tomorrow is Sunday, bro.

    Or do you guys have a different timezone in Oakland than we have here in Marin?  ;D

    Give this is the Bay Area, I started thinking about all the potential replies.  8).  But,   :-[
  • #43 by mitchjg on 08 Nov 2014
  • In the past, I have mentioned Barry Farm Foods as a source of diastatic malt, at http://www.barryfarm.com/nutri_info/baking%20supplies/diastaticmaltpowder.htm. However, that is a high diastatic malt. The way to tell is to look at the ingredients list. Note that the malted barley flour is first in the list of ingredients. To be a low diastatic malt, the malted barley flour would be last in the list. To see similar examples, look at the 60L (high) and 20L (low) ingredients lists for the Red Star malts at http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/sites/default/files/products_files/Tech%20Sheet%20-%20%20RS%20Diastatic%20Malt%2C24000%2C24100%20Rev%202%2C%2009-02-09.pdf.

    Peter

    Peter:
    I am sure you recall my postings about the diastatic malt powder that I have in the house from King Arthur - I was concerned about the expiration date.   I just checked the package.  The order of ingredients is dextrose, wheat flour and malted barley flour is last.

    Would you conclude it is "low diastatic malt"   ?

    - Mitch
  • #44 by Pete-zza on 09 Nov 2014
  • Peter:
    I am sure you recall my postings about the diastatic malt powder that I have in the house from King Arthur - I was concerned about the expiration date.   I just checked the package.  The order of ingredients is dextrose, wheat flour and malted barley flour is last.

    Would you conclude it is "low diastatic malt"   ?

    - Mitch
    Mitch,

    I was waiting for someone to ask that question.

    On the face of it, yes, I would say that the King Arthur (KA) diastatic malt is a low diastatic malt. The reason why I didn't say that earlier is because the recommended usage of their malt, 1/2 to one teaspoon per three cups of flour, translates into a percent of around 0.25-0.50%. That is an amount that is more indicative of a high diastatic malt where the usual concern is overusage of the malt in the hands of end users. However, as I noted in an earlier post, it is possible that KA is being conservative in its usage recommendation because it does not know how its users, who are primarily home bakers, will use their product. For example, they don't know the types of flours or dough or bake formulations its users have in mind to supplement with diastatic malt, whether sugars or other sweeteners are included in the formulations, bake protocols, etc.

    The best test of the KA diastatic malt for purposes of this thread is for someone to try the KA diastatic malt at 2% with one of the designated flours and dough formulations and see what happens.

    I mentioned earlier that Red Star has a usage recommendation for its low activity diastatic malt of 0.5-5%, and that the Briess website has a usage recommendation of up to 3%. However, if you look at the Red Star 60L product, which they call a high activity diastatic malt, at http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-dry-malt-product-60, you will see that the recommended usage is 0.5-5%. That would seem a wide range but there are diastatic malts that are even higher than 60L, and since Red Star sells its diastatic malts in 50-pound bags, their customers, who are presumably professionals, are presumed to know what they are doing. You can't say always that for ordinary home bakers. BTW, pure malted barley flour is about L180-220 (see http://www.maltproducts.com/products.malt.html). That helps put the other Lintner numbers in perspective.

    Peter

    EDIT (11/15/16): For the Wayback Machine version of the above inoperative link for the Red Star 60L product, see http://web.archive.org/web/20141207042746/http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-dry-malt-product-60

  • #45 by jsaras on 09 Nov 2014
  • Can't you just substitute sugar at the same amount in the recipe and get a similar result? 
  • #46 by mitchjg on 09 Nov 2014
  • Mitch,

    I was waiting for someone to ask that question.

    On the face of it, yes, I would say that the King Arthur (KA) diastatic malt is a low diastatic malt. The reason why I didn't say that earlier is because the recommended usage of their malt, 1/2 to one teaspoon per three cups of flour, translates into a percent of around 0.25-0.50%. That is an amount that is more indicative of a high diastatic malt where the usual concern is overusage of the malt in the hands of end users. However, as I noted in an earlier post, it is possible that KA is being conservative in its usage recommendation because it does not know how its users, who are primarily home bakers, will use their product. For example, they don't know the types of flours or dough or bake formulations its users have in mind to supplement with diastatic malt, whether sugars or other sweeteners are included in the formulations, bake protocols, etc.

    The best test of the KA diastatic malt for purposes of this thread is for someone to try the KA diastatic malt at 2% with one of the designated flours and dough formulations and see what happens.

    I mentioned earlier that Red Star has a usage recommendation for its low activity diastatic malt of 0.5-5%, and that the Briess website has a usage recommendation of up to 3%. However, if you look at the Red Star 60L product, which they call a high activity diastatic malt, at http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-dry-malt-product-60, you will see that the recommended usage is 0.5-5%. That would seem a wide range but there are diastatic malts that are even higher than 60L, and since Red Star sells its diastatic malts in 50-pound bags, their customers, who are presumably professionals, are presumed to know what they are doing. You can't say always that for ordinary home bakers. BTW, pure malted barley flour is about L180-220 (see http://www.maltproducts.com/products.malt.html). That helps put the other Lintner numbers in perspective.

    Peter

    Hi Peter:

    I am happy to serve by asking you the question you were waiting for!

    I just had an internet "chat" with a baker consultant at King Arthur.  They were able to answer my question about the Lintner value immediately.  Looks like it is not "low" diastatic malt.  Here is the chat:

    "
    Laurie F: Hi there! Thank you for chatting with us here at King Arthur Flour. How can I help you?
    You: Hi there.  I have a technical question about the diastatic malt powder
    You: apparently, there are different levels of "strength" for diastatic malt powder, as measured by the "Lintner" scale
    You: Do you know this is "low" diastatic malt powder or "high" diastatic malt powder
    You: ?
    Laurie F: Just a moment.
    You: thanks a lot
    Laurie F: Ours has 100 Lintner rating, so it is on the stronger side.
    You: thank you very much.  I greatly appreciate it.
    "

    It appears to me, assuming I understood the web links you provided, that a "low diastatic malt" is associated with a Lintner number of 20. 

    So, at the risk of being very naive, what about using 1/5 of the amount Tony recommends?

    - Mitch


    - Mitch
  • #47 by jvp123 on 09 Nov 2014
  • Great info thanks Mitch!
  • #48 by Essen1 on 09 Nov 2014
  • Hi Peter:

    I am happy to serve by asking you the question you were waiting for!

    I just had an internet "chat" with a baker consultant at King Arthur.  They were able to answer my question about the Lintner value immediately.  Looks like it is not "low" diastatic malt.  Here is the chat:

    "
    Laurie F: Hi there! Thank you for chatting with us here at King Arthur Flour. How can I help you?
    You: Hi there.  I have a technical question about the diastatic malt powder
    You: apparently, there are different levels of "strength" for diastatic malt powder, as measured by the "Lintner" scale
    You: Do you know this is "low" diastatic malt powder or "high" diastatic malt powder
    You: ?
    Laurie F: Just a moment.
    You: thanks a lot
    Laurie F: Ours has 100 Lintner rating, so it is on the stronger side.
    You: thank you very much.  I greatly appreciate it.
    "

    It appears to me, assuming I understood the web links you provided, that a "low diastatic malt" is associated with a Lintner number of 20. 

    So, at the risk of being very naive, what about using 1/5 of the amount Tony recommends?

    - Mitch


    - Mitch

    Excellent info, Mitch!

    Does anyone know, by any chance, what the numbers of the Giusto's/Central Milling DM are? Might have to call them tomorrow and find out.
  • #49 by Pete-zza on 09 Nov 2014
  • Hi Peter:

    I am happy to serve by asking you the question you were waiting for!

    I just had an internet "chat" with a baker consultant at King Arthur.  They were able to answer my question about the Lintner value immediately.  Looks like it is not "low" diastatic malt.  Here is the chat:

    "
    Laurie F: Hi there! Thank you for chatting with us here at King Arthur Flour. How can I help you?
    You: Hi there.  I have a technical question about the diastatic malt powder
    You: apparently, there are different levels of "strength" for diastatic malt powder, as measured by the "Lintner" scale
    You: Do you know this is "low" diastatic malt powder or "high" diastatic malt powder
    You: ?
    Laurie F: Just a moment.
    You: thanks a lot
    Laurie F: Ours has 100 Lintner rating, so it is on the stronger side.
    You: thank you very much.  I greatly appreciate it.
    "

    It appears to me, assuming I understood the web links you provided, that a "low diastatic malt" is associated with a Lintner number of 20. 

    So, at the risk of being very naive, what about using 1/5 of the amount Tony recommends?

    - Mitch


    - Mitch
    Mitch,

    Good work. Now you can see why I was originally hesitant about commenting on the KA diastatic malt. I was looking at the ingredients list at https://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop-img/labels/1298304180122.pdf where the malted barley flour is last in the list. I assume that the KA pdf document is the current one since I found it at the KA website. If so, this tells us to look behind the ingredients list to find the Lintner value if it is not recited anywhere, as it is for most malt producers.

    The only way to know if using one-fifth the amount of diastatic that Tony calls for is to try it out.

    Peter
  • #50 by tinroofrusted on 09 Nov 2014
  • Diastatic malt is sold at Surfas in Los Angeles and Orange County under the "Culinary District" brand which I believe is the house brand of Surfas. I purchased an 11 oz package; I can't recall what it cost. 

    I think that Tony is using the diastatic malt as a way to promote faster browning in home ovens. 
  • #51 by mkevenson on 09 Nov 2014
  • Just received an Email from a rep at Pendleton regarding the addition of malt to their unbleached Power Flour. He states that malt is NOT added. FWIW.

    Mark
  • #52 by jvp123 on 09 Nov 2014
  • Just received an Email from a rep at Pendleton regarding the addition of malt to their unbleached Power Flour. He states that malt is NOT added. FWIW.

    Mark

    Thanks Mark.  I use that flour so its good to know!

  • #53 by mitchjg on 09 Nov 2014
  • Just received an Email from a rep at Pendleton regarding the addition of malt to their unbleached Power Flour. He states that malt is NOT added. FWIW.

    Mark

    Mark

    I have a feeling you may have asked the wrong question or we should all be clear/precise on context.    I am sure there is not any diastatic malt powder added.  I do not think anyone does that in any flour.  That is definitely a recipe addition that is made by some bakers in some circumstances.

    But, I bet you that one of the ingredients is malted barley flour.  The vast majority of American flours have that.  Without it, you would have trouble with browning, etc.

    Which, if either, do you think was asked and answered?

    Thanks,
    Mitch

  • #54 by dsissitka on 09 Nov 2014
  • I am sure there is not any diastatic malt powder added.  I do not think anyone does that in any flour.

    ...

    But, I bet you that one of the ingredients is malted barley flour.

    Isn't malted barley flour just diastatic malt powder without dextrose and flour to dilute it?
  • #55 by Pete-zza on 09 Nov 2014
  • Isn't malted barley flour just diastatic malt powder without dextrose and flour to dilute it?
    dsissitka,

    That is my understanding. See Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11549.msg106388/topicseen.html#msg106388 .

    Peter
  • #56 by mitchjg on 09 Nov 2014
  • As Peter said, I think the answer is "yes" and it may be a question of concentration.  In my web surfing, the malted barley is blended in with the wheat flour at the mill.  It seems that the concentration is around 1/10 of a %. 

    The malt powder additive boosts that % by multiples.  Perhaps 2 to 3 times in "normal baking of bread" when a baker chooses to add it.

    So, Mark's remark was about malt being "added to the flour."  But, the barley flour is already in the flour from the mill.

    So, if from the factory was "yes", it was 1/10 of 1% and Tony's addition is multiples of that.
    But, the same action may result if the answer is "no" since the concentrations are so different (mill blending vs. bakery addition) and the boost needed to conform to Tony's recipe is not hugely different.

    Alternatively, they may be malting the flour without barley, using "enzymes produced by fungal and bacterial processes." (I am not being smart here, I am just quoting Peter.  Look here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,31960.msg317156.html#msg317156 )

    This is brand new territory for me so I can confidently tell you I am on shaky ground.  But, I think that is what is happening here and the question/answer could trick us if we are not careful.  I believe we will find, barley or no barley, that Pendleton Power Flour is already malted but to follow Tony's recipe we need to add low diastatic malt powder.

    Peter: Does any of this sound right?  Or, is the Pendleton Power Flour really simply unmalted?

    - Mitch
  • #57 by mitchjg on 09 Nov 2014
  • i found an easy to read label on Amazon.  It says: "Enzyme Added For Improved Baking".  I believe, therefore, it is malted.  Maybe with barley flour, maybe with something else.

    - Mitch
  • #58 by Pete-zza on 09 Nov 2014
  • Mark

    I have a feeling you may have asked the wrong question or we should all be clear/precise on context.    I am sure there is not any diastatic malt powder added.  I do not think anyone does that in any flour.  That is definitely a recipe addition that is made by some bakers in some circumstances.

    But, I bet you that one of the ingredients is malted barley flour.  The vast majority of American flours have that.  Without it, you would have trouble with browning, etc.

    Which, if either, do you think was asked and answered?

    Thanks,
    Mitch
    Mitch,

    Mark might be able to provide further information about his exchange with Pendleton, but I believe he may be correct. As I understand it, the Power flour is not malted with barley malt flour. Invariably, at least in my experience, when malted barley flour is added to a given flour, it is recited as such in ingredients lists. But the ingredients list for that flour, as I saw it by enlarging a photo of a bag of the Power flour, lists an enzyme. As you noted, that enzyme might be a fungal or bacterial version of the amylase enzyme that works on damaged starch. You can read more on this subject at http://www.classofoods.com/page1_7.html .

    A good follow-up question by Mark might be to ask Pendleton whether the enzyme used in the Power flour is a fungal or bacterial amylase enzyme. There are other enzymes that can be used in flours, so the follow-up question might enlighten us further.

    Peter

    EDIT (8/28/20): For a Wayback Machine version of the now inoperative classofoods.com link, see https://web.archive.org/web/20101103015343/http://www.classofoods.com/page1_7.html


  • #59 by mkevenson on 09 Nov 2014
  • This is a copy of what I received:

    "Mark,

    Power unbleached does not contain Malt.  Ingredients include enrichment vitamins, fungal amylase enzyme, and ascorbic acid (vitamin C).

    Please let me know if you need any additional information.

    Reuben McLean

    Sent from my iPhone"

    Mark
  • #60 by Essen1 on 09 Nov 2014
  • This is a copy of what I received:

    "Mark,

    Power unbleached does not contain Malt.  Ingredients include enrichment vitamins, fungal amylase enzyme, and ascorbic acid (vitamin C).

    Please let me know if you need any additional information.

    Reuben McLean



    Sent from my iPhone"

    Mark

    Mark,

    I just saw this. I have been using Power for awhile and had a hunch that it wasn't malted. I'm sure it would have said so on the bag somewhere.

    But thanks for the confirmation and posting the info you got from Mr. McLean.
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