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Author Topic: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible  (Read 135056 times)

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Offline sodface

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #420 on: December 29, 2016, 03:36:14 PM »
According to my calculations, the 8oz bag I bought would be good for about 230 18" pizzas with my current dough formula.  About 3.5 cents per pizza.
Carl

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #421 on: December 29, 2016, 03:39:45 PM »
Carl,

The Central Milling website does not indicate whether Tony's flour as noted at https://centralmilling.com/product/tony-gemignanis-california-artisan-type-00-pizza-blend/ contains added barley malt. You can read some comments about people using malt with that flour, at http://store.thepizzabible.com/products/tonys-artisan-00, but it is still not clear whether the flour itself is malted.

Peter

Offline sodface

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #422 on: December 29, 2016, 04:47:21 PM »
Carl,

The Central Milling website does not indicate whether Tony's flour as noted at https://centralmilling.com/product/tony-gemignanis-california-artisan-type-00-pizza-blend/ contains added barley malt. You can read some comments about people using malt with that flour, at http://store.thepizzabible.com/products/tonys-artisan-00, but it is still not clear whether the flour itself is malted.

Peter

I guess the point I've been trying to make (and determine if my point is accurate or not) is that it seems sort of analogous to buying self-rising flour and then adding more baking powder/soda to it.  Who knows, there's probably recipes that call for that.
Carl

Offline sodface

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #423 on: December 31, 2016, 01:43:14 AM »
Sorry to keep blabbing about this, especially since the more posts I read (this thread and in the more flavor in dough thread) I usually find my question has been asked and answered - Peter your patience astounds in this regard.  Many of your lengthy, polite, and well researched and referenced replies could be shortened to: "use the search tool".  :-D

Anyway, I wanted to just make a couple more comments, first about the breadtopia DMP I bought.  It's actually a Briess product, spec sheet here:
http://breadtopia.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Briess_Specs.pdf

The applications section of the spec sheet includes "pizza crust", ok that's good.  It also mentions that it "enhances browning".  However, on this page:
http://www.briess.com/food/Products/mimbf.php#apps
it says this:

Quote
Use small amounts of high enzyme malt flours, like Malted Barley Flour Whole Grain and Malted Wheat Flour, for dough conditioning without additional flavor or color. Use larger amounts of low enzyme malt flours, like Munich 10L Malted Barley Flour Whole Grain, or Maltoroseô Dough Improver, for a lesser degree of dough conditioning but for additional flavor and color.

I bolded the bit about flavor and color.  The color part seems to contradict the spec sheet.  And the paragraph as a whole might be a little different than what's being said here about looking at the degrees Lintner and adjusting quantities accordingly.  I think Craig kind of says it here:

Quote from: TXCraig1
Yours is 10X more concentrated than LDM, however LDM often has dextrose or other ingredients which may enhance browning, so it may not scale linearly.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is that it seems like the LDM in Tony's dough formula is being used more for flavor and color and less for dough conditioning.  The higher Lintner product I bought seems more geared for dough conditioning and less for flavor and color.  So by reducing the amount used proportionally to Tony's LDM amount (which would put it in the recommended range of no more than .5% of flour weight) I would get the dough conditioning that it was designed for but not the flavor and color of the LDM that Tony uses.  So I'm not sure the results of using what I have (210L) would be the same results as using the 20L malt powder even if I adjust the quantity proportionally.  Using the 210L vs the 20L, even in the correct quantity might (will?) change the fermentation rate also so following times in the book might be challenging.

I guess I'm just wondering if I try this 210L product and I don't like it or don't notice much of a difference I might be tempted to write off DMP altogether thinking that the 20L would give me the same result (but with using more by % flour) where that might not actually be the case.

Anyway, it's 1:30 in the morning, and I'm not planning on using Tony's methods anyway!!  I was just trying to figure out how best to use what I bought and what benefits I might get from it.  Of course the best thing to do would be to try it  :o

/ramble off

//edit - I think when they say color they mean crumb color and when they say browning they mean the exterior.  So color and browning are two different things.



« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 08:22:56 AM by sodface »
Carl

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #424 on: December 31, 2016, 09:11:38 AM »
The manufacturer's comments on functionality largely relate to a commercial environment. You seem to be interpreting them to be the same for home use, and it may not be that simple. There are a ton of variables you are not considering. I also doubt your browning/color distinction is correct.

Nothing screws up pizza like overthinking.
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Offline sodface

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #425 on: December 31, 2016, 09:41:56 AM »
Nothing screws up pizza like overthinking.

 :-D

Not that there has to be, but, is there a recommendation or general consensus here on the forum regarding the use of the various DMPs?  Is it:

A. The various DMPs are all basically the same, just look at the degree Lintner rating and adjust quantities accordingly to achieve the same results.
B. The DMPs have some similarities but are not the same.  Substituting a higher or lower Lintner DMP then a recipe calls for, even if you proportionally adjust the quantities, may impact fermentation and handling and yield a different finished product.  Try it and see.
C. The DMPs are formulated differently for a reason.  Use what the recipe calls for to achieve the results the author intended - do not substitute and expect the result to be consistent with the author's.
D. None of the above.

I've read most of this thread and some other posts in other threads and I'm not sure what the prevailing wisdom is.  But you're right, I'm probably spending way too much time thinking about it.

Regarding color and browning:

http://www.briess.com/food/Processes/maltclasses.php#standard

Quote
Standard Malt-Diastatic

Standard Malted Barley Flour is the functional malt ingredient milled from standard diastatic malt. In baking, high enzyme levels make diastatic malted barley flour an effective dough conditioner as a minor ingredient, often less than 1 percent, that adds no flavor or color to the crumb. The benefits of diastatic malted barley flour include increased fermenation, decreased proofing time, improved machinability and extensibility, enhanced crumb and browning of crust, and little or no flavor contributions.

Emphasis added.  No color to crumb but enhanced browning of crust.  That seems to imply color and browning are two different things.

//edit, further down the same page is the description for the other DMPs, adding here for reference:
Quote
Specialty Malts-Diastatic

Diastatic specialty malts are dried further during kilning to develop intense bakery-type flavors, such as malty, biscuity, or nutty, while preserving some enzymatic activity. Because they have reduced enzyme levels, Diastatic Specialty Malt flours are used at higher levels (up to 3 percent) to contribute more crumb flavor and color to breads, pizza crusts, and other yeast-fermented dough systems. Benefits of Diastatic Specialty Malt flours include enhanced flavor and enhanced color.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2016, 09:52:40 AM by sodface »
Carl

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #426 on: December 31, 2016, 09:59:43 AM »
Carl,

All of this can get quite confusing. But I think it might be helpful to keep the differences between malt products in mind and how they can be used. For example, the 210L product you have is pure barley malt flour. It is what millers typically use to malt their flours when using a cereal-based malt as opposed to a fungal or bacterial diastatic enzyme. As previously mentioned, General Mills uses about 0.1-0.2%. That is a very safe amount for most bakers. It is also a safe amount to use when one wants to malt an unmalted flour, such as some unmalted organic flours (and 00 flours for doughs to be baked in lower temperature ovens). The amount of crust coloration one will get will depend on the amount of the 210L product used. If too much is used in order to get increased crust coloration, then it may turn out that the dough is conditioned too much and will likely end up being wet, soft and sticky.

By contrast, the lower degrees Lintner malt products, unlike the 210L product, are some combination of barley malt, a form of sugar (usually dextrose), and wheat flour. The combinations and sequencing of ingredients in the ingredients statements can vary from one source to another, yet have the same degrees Lintner numbers, so some experimentation may be needed to determine the best amount of the selected product to use to get the desired results. But with the LDM products, you get crust coloration from both the barley malt and the dextrose. Again, it is possible to use too much and end up with too much dough conditioning. It would help to know how much barley malt, dextrose and wheat flour are used in each LDM product but that information is generally proprietary although I managed to coax a AB Mauri product development specialist to tell me how much barley malt flour is used for their 20L product. It is about 25-40%, as I so noted at Reply 169 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34845.msg353229;topicseen#msg353229. That value compares with 100% barley malt flour for the 210L (and higher) malt products.

In your case, you may have to scale back on the amount of 210L product and maybe add some sugar or dextrose if you have it if you want to simulate a 20L product. Again, because all LDM products of a given degrees Lintner number are not identical, some experimentation may be needed. But if you only want to get more enzyme activity, leave out the sugar or dextrose but don't go too far over 0.1-0.2% and take whatever crust coloration that amount contributes to the finished crust. And if that works and produces good results, you can gradually increase the amount in small steps, and stop and recalibrate when the dough gets too wet or soft or sticky.

Peter

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #427 on: December 31, 2016, 10:27:15 AM »
Nothing screws up pizza like overthinking.

:-D

It wasn't meant to be funny.
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Offline sodface

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #428 on: December 31, 2016, 10:41:40 AM »
It wasn't meant to be funny.

The  :-D wasn't meant to indicate I was laughing at what you said, but rather at myself for being dense.  Definitely time for me to move on from this topic.

@Peter

Thanks for the reply and suggestions.
Carl

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #429 on: December 31, 2016, 10:44:13 AM »
Don't stress. Make pizza.
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Offline icemanxp300

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #430 on: April 20, 2018, 06:17:09 PM »
OK, so a few years ago when I first set-out to make my own pizza I ran across some TG videos and he mentioned using malt. I couldn't find it locally so I moved on to sugar. Fast forward to now, as I get better, I understand more and look for ways to improve.

Last night I started watching some videos again and everything makes way more sense now. I did run across something last night that is what I consider very important, I'll tell you in a minute. I have my wife getting me the Pizza Bible for my b-day in a few weeks. At that point I fully intend to see if this is covered in his book. I literally just read almost this entire thread, I did skim a few off topic replies. I have seen this question asked a few times w/no replies.

If you go in to 5 minutes in this video TG talks about malt and he says if you use sugar it is 3 times as much as malt. That to me is very good to know. I plan on getting my hands on some LDM here to see the difference it makes, if anyone wants to sell me a smaller amount that would be great. I would be wanting the AB Mouri stuff.


Offline Essen1

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #431 on: April 20, 2018, 06:24:49 PM »
OK, so a few years ago when I first set-out to make my own pizza I ran across some TG videos and he mentioned using malt. I couldn't find it locally so I moved on to sugar. Fast forward to now, as I get better, I understand more and look for ways to improve.

Last night I started watching some videos again and everything makes way more sense now. I did run across something last night that is what I consider very important, I'll tell you in a minute. I have my wife getting me the Pizza Bible for my b-day in a few weeks. At that point I fully intend to see if this is covered in his book. I literally just read almost this entire thread, I did skim a few off topic replies. I have seen this question asked a few times w/no replies.

If you go in to 5 minutes in this video TG talks about malt and he says if you use sugar it is 3 times as much as malt. That to me is very good to know. I plan on getting my hands on some LDM here to see the difference it makes, if anyone wants to sell me a smaller amount that would be great. I would be wanting the AB Mouri stuff.



http://nybakers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=6&products_id=60
Mike

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Offline icemanxp300

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #432 on: April 20, 2018, 06:35:30 PM »
It is a 1lb they are selling. I thought it was a 5lb.

Offline Essen1

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #433 on: April 20, 2018, 06:40:14 PM »
It is a 1lb they are selling. I thought it was a 5lb.

I believe the only 5lb bag you can get is from Central Milling. 1lb goes a long way, though.
Mike

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #434 on: April 20, 2018, 07:55:17 PM »
I believe the only 5lb bag you can get is from Central Milling. 1lb goes a long way, though.

I think Central Milling quit selling it altogether.
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #435 on: April 20, 2018, 08:08:28 PM »
I think Central Milling quit selling it altogether.

Craig,

I saw it on the shelves in their retail shop about 10 days ago when I was up there. CM doesn't have it on their website but KGBS has it listed. Maybe people have to call in and order?
Mike

ďAll styles of pizza are valid. I make the best Iím capable of; you should make the best youíre capable of. I donít want to make somebody elseís pizza.Ē ~ Chris Bianco

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #436 on: April 20, 2018, 08:11:51 PM »
Craig,

I saw it on the shelves in their retail shop about 10 days ago when I was up there. CM doesn't have it on their website but KGBS has it listed. Maybe people have to call in and order?

I just noticed some time ago that they don't list it on their website any more which is kind of curious if they still sell it. First the stopped listing the 5#, then the 1# disappeared too.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline mitchjg

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #438 on: April 20, 2018, 08:16:51 PM »
I just noticed some time ago that they don't list it on their website any more which is kind of curious if they still sell it. First the stopped listing the 5#, then the 1# disappeared too.

I noticed that, too.

Here's what's listed on the KGBS. A bit confusing, to say the least... ???

http://www.kgbakerysupply.com/bakery-supply-products#yeast-conditioners
Mike

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Offline jvp123

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #439 on: April 21, 2018, 06:07:32 PM »
Hey guys, quick question .. is the LDM adding much in terms of flavor or is it mostly just for color? 

edit:  I've been reducing my 20L LDM (AB Mauri) to the point where I am only at .20 and going to .15.  I think I am getting plenty of flavor and color due to my poolish and 2 or 3 day CFs.  Plus my flour already has malt being that I use Power flour and King Arthur AP flour.

Thinking of losing it all together soon.  Is it mainly for those doing quicker ferments (without a preferment) and need the color and flavor boost?



« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 06:38:17 PM by jvp123 »
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