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Author Topic: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible  (Read 150962 times)

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #440 on: April 22, 2018, 01:07:09 AM »
Flavor, color and texture: 

Umami
Sweetness
Improved browning from residual sugars and amino acids
Tenderizing via proteolysis

Can we stop overthinking?
Mike

ďAll styles of pizza are valid. I make the best Iím capable of; you should make the best youíre capable of. I donít want to make somebody elseís pizza.Ē ~ Chris Bianco

Offline jvp123

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #441 on: April 22, 2018, 01:16:18 AM »

With my convection oven and 2-3 day CF, I donít use any sugar and .20% LDM and easily get browning. Iím not sure I need it at all for browning and may test that soon.

I suspect if I were doing a same day dough it would be more necessary.

 

Jeff

Offline norma427

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #442 on: April 22, 2018, 07:26:07 AM »

Hey guys, quick question .. is the LDM adding much in terms of flavor or is it mostly just for color? 


Jeff,

I didn't do controlled experiments with using the regular formulation and also adding LDM, but didn't see much of any differences in adding LDM, expect the dough seemed to open a little easier. That was with a two day cold ferment using malted and bromated flour and added sugar.  Used it for months and then stopped when I couldn't purchase the LDM in a 5 lb. bag.  Just a few weeks ago added LDM again and didn't see enough of any difference to keep using LDM.  Didn't notice any flavor change in the crust.

Norma

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #443 on: April 23, 2018, 01:45:31 PM »
Jeff,


For me, it definitely adds a complexity of flavor to my (rare)  same-day and next-day doughs...I actually was very pleasantly surprised. But for longer doughs, in my admittedly limited sample, it doesn't do anything for me, and if used in even slightly too high quantity ,is a negative  adding gumminess  .I can't quite recall how it affected the finished crumb, but I do remember it wasn't a good thing..

Offline Rolls

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #444 on: April 23, 2018, 06:22:58 PM »
For me, it definitely adds a complexity of flavor to my (rare)  same-day and next-day doughs...I actually was very pleasantly surprised. But for longer doughs, in my admittedly limited sample, it doesn't do anything for me, and if used in even slightly too high quantity ,is a negative  adding gumminess  .I can't quite recall how it affected the finished crumb, but I do remember it wasn't a good thing..

I was under the impression that diastatic malt was more suitable for indirect methods using preferments.  The malt is added in the second phase of mixing to increase fermentable sugars.  I guess it still has its place in direct doughs that are fermented for extended times.  In any case, I agree that an overdose of malt, like most other additives, is never a good thing.


Rolls
« Last Edit: April 24, 2018, 12:18:29 PM by Rolls »
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Offline Brent-r

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #445 on: June 25, 2018, 08:29:12 AM »
we have been having fun with SD breads and pizza dough and find the topic of malting interesting.  The flours we use are either home ground which are for sure unmalted, and a flour from Arva Flour Mill (arvaflourmill.com) who claim "no preservatives bleaches or enhancers".

After reading the Pizza Bibble and several links with in this forum I decided to do a little test.  I very carefully and accurately put some fresh Arva, sourdough and water in two jars and then added about 1/8 tsp diastatic malt to one.  I expected that malt to make more sugars available to the the SD yeasts and we would see a faster rise.  If it happened that way it was a very small change.  The first photos below are about 12 hours.  The SD had risen to its peak at room temp and then began to collapse.  If there was no difference in the rise rate there sure was in the decline rate.  The SD with the malt collapsed MUCH slower than the plain.  The second picture is about 22 hours after mixing and there is still a considerable difference.   So is the yeast in the malted one getting more sugars and feeding longer or is the gluten forming better in the malted jar holding the gas better.  (PS  the jars are Weck jars from Crate and Barrel and with the straight walls inside are much better to work with than standard preserves jars )

Brent

Offline Brent-r

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #446 on: June 25, 2018, 11:05:55 AM »
I decided to continue with this and feed the SD again this morning.   What was interesting was that when I stirred in exactly equal amounts of water, before adding more flour .... the levels in the jars became virtually equal.  This makes me suspect a difference in the (amount of) gluten and that it was holding more gas.   So I added in more flour and will see what happens during the day.
Brent

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #447 on: June 25, 2018, 01:10:11 PM »
Brent,

With respect to the question you raised in your opening post, I would say that the results you achieved using the diastatic malt were due to the diastatic malt acting on the damaged starch in the flour to create more sugars to feed the SD. Gluten is formed by the addition of water or another liquid to the flour and then mixing. You may have done a bit of that in mixing the diastatic malt into the SD but if you didn't overmix the SD with the diastatic malt and otherwise treated both forms of the SD the same, the gluten development should have been minor. There may also have been some biochemical gluten development over time but, again, if you treated both forms of the SD the same, that difference might also have pretty much washed.

You can read more about how gluten is formed in normal doughs in the post at Reply 5 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=929.msg8419#msg8419

You can also read about the role of diastatic malt at Reply 46 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17555.msg179560;topicseen#msg179560

Peter

Offline Makisupapoliceman

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #448 on: July 16, 2018, 08:35:33 PM »
Hi please forgive me, but I did not read thru this whole thread. I just ordered non diastatic malt powder. is this compatible with pizza making? I meant to order low diastatic but made a mistake. hope this can work! :pizza:

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #449 on: July 16, 2018, 08:53:17 PM »
Non diastatic malt is just a flavoring/sweetener/sugar alternative. It's not enzymatically active and will not serve the same function as diastatic malt.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 08:54:55 PM by TXCraig1 »
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Offline john_k

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #450 on: February 26, 2019, 10:45:10 AM »
Here is a source for Tony Gemignani's choice of LDMP.
http://www.giovannispecialties.com/product/tony-gemignani-low-diastatic-malt/

Offline Brent-r

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #451 on: March 04, 2019, 11:13:57 AM »
while looking around for sources of diastatic malt in Canada I stumbled on this that is worth a giggle :D
Brent

Offline mrmafix

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #452 on: February 05, 2020, 02:39:24 PM »
What is the difference between DMP and LDMP?  If Iíve been using DMP and a recipe calls for LDMP, can I modify the amount to reach the LDMP value?

Offline icemanxp300

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #453 on: April 20, 2020, 09:31:05 AM »
What is the difference between DMP and LDMP?  If Iíve been using DMP and a recipe calls for LDMP, can I modify the amount to reach the LDMP value?

In the first 2 pages of this thread it was stated the DMP is just a sweetener like sugar where as LDMP isn't really a sweetener and more so helps break down the complex sugars in the flour. You want a low lintner for the DMP hence LDMP.

So to answer your question as far as I understand it, no. You are using a malt that performs differently. LDMP is not the same as DMP. DMP is only a sweetener, it doesn't react with the flour the same as LDMP.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #454 on: April 20, 2020, 10:12:46 AM »
In the first 2 pages of this thread it was stated the DMP is just a sweetener like sugar where as LDMP isn't really a sweetener and more so helps break down the complex sugars in the flour. You want a low lintner for the DMP hence LDMP.

So to answer your question as far as I understand it, no. You are using a malt that performs differently. LDMP is not the same as DMP. DMP is only a sweetener, it doesn't react with the flour the same as LDMP.
icemanxp300,

As you can see if you look at the definitions given in the forum's Pizza Glossary for DMP and LDMP (Lintner value), at https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#index_d and at https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#linter, respectively, you will see that both DMP and LDMP are diastatic malts.

Peter

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Offline icemanxp300

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #455 on: April 20, 2020, 10:49:51 AM »
icemanxp300,

As you can see if you look at the definitions given in the forum's Pizza Glossary for DMP and LDMP (Lintner value), at https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#index_d and at https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#linter, respectively, you will see that both DMP and LDMP are diastatic malts.

Peter

Of course they are, that's what the DM stands for in each. From my understanding the LDMP reacts differently than DMP does when formulated into a dough mixture. Maybe I misunderstood it, but if LDMP acts the same as sugar or DMP just in lower amounts what's the point? Just use sugar and call it a day.


I was under the assumption that the LDMP helped with breaking down the sugars in the flour making it digest better when you ate it. I don't think the LDMP has much to do with taste.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 10:53:57 AM by icemanxp300 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #456 on: April 20, 2020, 12:05:07 PM »
icemanxp300,

My recollection is that members of the forum started to use LDMP in their doughs because Tony Gemignani recommended it in his book, The Pizza Bible, and included it several of his dough recipes in his book. To the extent that one uses a malted flour, it would not make much sense to add a high degrees Lintner value DMP, which is what millers usually add to their flours, since that would raise the total amount of malt in the dough to a level that would cause damage to the dough, by making it overly soft and damp and hard to handle. However, adding a small amount of LDMP to a flour that is already malted is unlikely to cause any harm if it is the proper LDMP form from a degrees Lintner standpoint. To this end, today I went back to Tony's book and looked at why he recommends using a small amount of diastatic malt, to wit:

MALT

Malt is sometimes called the European baker's secret because it's frequently used for breads and other baked goods there. It's also a wonderful secret ingredient for baking pizzas in a conventional home oven, which can't reach the temperature of a pizzeria oven. A small amount of malt added to your dough will help it brown and will give it a subtle nutty-caramel sweetness in lower temperatures. If you're planning to bake your pizza on a grill, in a wood-burning oven, or using the broiler method (see page 202)--all of which can give you temperatures higher than 650 degrees F--you should omit the malt from your dough.

The above excerpt is the first paragraph in Tony's book under MALT at page 16. In the two succeeding paragraphs, Tony discusses how malt is made and also the differences between diastatic malt and nondiastatic malt. Those paragraphs are standard descriptions.

Apart from the differences between DMP and LDMP as noted above, most LDMP products contain a form of sugar, usually dextrose. Offhand, I don't recall why the added sugar is used as part of the LDMP but I suspect it enhances browning.

We have had several members decide to drop LDMP from their doughs and just use table sugar, often for the reason you mentioned. In some cases, members, especially those outside of the U.S., can't easily find diastatic malt in their countries so they are pretty much stuck with table sugar.

As for your comment "I was under the assumption that the LDMP helped with breaking down the sugars in the flour making it digest better when you ate it. I don't think the LDMP has much to do with taste", I could not find anything in this thread that said that LDMP improves digestion. Member Marco (pizzanapoletana) often talked about problems with digestion but it was in the context of a dough not fermenting long enough. See, for example, Reply 4 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1942.msg17216;topicseen#msg17216

I sometimes wonder what would have happened if Tony did not recommend using a small amount of diastatic malt to the flours used in his recipes in his book, especially for flours that are already malted at the mill.

Peter

Offline icemanxp300

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #457 on: April 20, 2020, 09:09:06 PM »
Well I kind of linked 2 and 2 together to get the digestion thing :)

In the past I have heard Tony mention that having a cold fermented dough makes it easier to digest because the yeast breaks down the simple sugars of the flour. He says the yeast does the work for you. He recommends at least a 24hr CF but a 2 day is better and a 3 day is excellent. I can rummage through YouTube to find that but I'm pretty sure he mentioned in in one of his seminars he had listed on YouTube.

Now go to post 21 in this thread from Norma and you will find this: "As for Malt the one I recommend is Low Diastatic Malt from Central Milling. The best around. With it being Diastatic it will help the breakdown of complex sugars as well as assisting in browning, a vehicle for yeast and simple sugar."

I guess it really doesn't state it has to be low Diatstic malt, that was just the kind he recommended. Later on it just says DM will help breakdown complex sugars. Which takes me back to the above statement about helping the yeast break down the sugars in the flour to make it easier to digest.

Ok I found it. Go to 32:20 and listen for a few minutes to Tony talking about Digestibility.

« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 09:26:12 PM by icemanxp300 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #458 on: April 21, 2020, 10:13:56 AM »
icemanxp300,

What Tony says in the video about digestibility is essentially what Marco (pizzanapoletana) discussed in the post I cited. Marco further expanded on the matter of digestibility toward the end of the post at Reply 24 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=656.msg11520#msg11520

As for the LDM that Tony G recommends, and as noted by Norma in Reply 21, Central Milling sells the 20 degrees Lintner product, as noted at:

https://kgbakerysupply.com/bakery-supply-products#yeast-conditioners

It would be possible to use a regular DMP malt with a degrees Lintner of around 200, but one would have to use just enough to be equivalent to 20 degrees Lintner if one wants to use the recipes in Tony's book. Most people using Tony's book are unlikely to know how to do this. As a side note, when Mike (Boy Hits Car) and I created the expanded dough calculating tool at https://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded-calculator.html, the only diastatic malt that we were aware of at the time was the very high degrees Lintner product in the SELFNutritionData database. Even today, the only diastatic malt product in that database is the one we used. There are no LDMP products in the database.

In the video you cited, I did not hear a connection between using LDMP and digestibility. There may well be such a connection but I don't know whether using the amounts called for in Tony's recipes would have that effect or the extent of that effect.

Peter

Offline GPalmer

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Re: Diastatic Malt--The Pizza Bible
« Reply #459 on: January 23, 2022, 01:21:24 PM »
 So, it seems that a few years have passed since this topic was hot. I am curious how DMP users feelings and use has evolved over time. Do you still use it and feel good about its usage? I posted to the original thread since I think it's worthwhile to see how thoughts have evolved over time.

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