Reverse Engineering Patsy's Pizza

[varasano]

I would say that a 80-120 min counter rise is right, but there have been times when I've been surprised and found that it didn't rise much in that time and had to go longer. But you don't need a huge rise, as I've posted about. Try this and see how it works. I'm making a dough tonight for Sunday pizza's and i'm using the KASL for the first time (I'm out of the bread and too lazy to go to the store, LOL). What's all the buzz about Caputo. Which Caputo is the one I should try (if I ever get enough time in my life to try these things)?

Just one comment on this KASL vs Bread flour issue.  I never said that Bread was better than KASL and in fact said that it might turn out that KASL was better. BUT I did want to stress that overall the technique, such as the hydration and autolyse were really the important thing and needed to be learned and that great pizza could in fact be made with Bread or even AP. I know the ingredients are a factor, but if you compare (KASL + Bad technique) - [which frankly I saw a lot of on this board] vs. (AP + good technique), it's no contest. The technique is FAR, FAR, FAR more important. I continue to experiment with both technique and ingredients as I have for years, but my experience tells me the technique is 90%. I wouldn't use junk, but all King Arthur products are good.  I actually started with the basic assumption that Patsy's probably did NOT use the highest quality ingredients. Too expensive. I never thought they use San Marzano tomatoes, for example. I knew they would use a restaurant supply product not a boutique gourmet product. Yet their pizza was 1000 times better than mine for a long time. Why?  It had to be technique or some other factor.  I have no problem experimenting with all kinds of products. If you check out my recent page for example you will see all tomatoes I've tried (these are just the ones I remember). People I respect, like Ed Wood, have really opened my eyes to the technique issue. He's a master bread maker and a perfectionist, yet he uses AP. It is not a 'cheap' ingredient. It's just got a different profile.  I wouldn't even have tried it if he hadn't talked about the difference in the gluten developement vs the starting gluten %. On my site you see how much I stress technique down to very fine details. The other reason that I went to AP was that in the Kitchen Aid mixer, the AP did better than bread and I imagine that going the other way towards KASL would have been very hit and miss in the Kitchen Aid mixer.  Of course, now I know that I probably could have overcome that with autolyse and gradual adding of flour etc. But at the time I though the only work around was a new mixer. I still think the DLX is far superior, but as I've said, could probably get the KA to work now, whereas I couldn't before (not to this quality). When I look at other photos, (for example of Lehman doughs), and read the related threads, I see people obsessing over ingredients and percentages, etc. But, honestly, the photos on most of those threads are not impressive. It reminds me so much of my computer experiences. I see developers go crazy arguing with me because I use some component that some magazine says is slow. Yet overall my systems are 10 times faster than theirs. Yikes... I tend to take a much more holistic approach to engineering a solution. Same with my rubik's cube solution.  I did many things that others thought were wrong, yet I set the U.S. record.  We all have assumptions but I tend to be more willing than most to drop the common wisdom and try something opposite and see what happens.  The bottom line is that I hope that the KASL or Caputo ARE better because then I can improve even more. But my recent pies are as good as some of the old Patsy's and they were using bread for all the reasons stated. So all I'm trying to do is get people to think about the problem differently. It's not about an ingredient list, in my opinion. It's a whole approach. The ingredients are just one small part.

pft, Just got back from the Garnter summit.  I was nominated for best presentation which is pretty good considering we only paid to present to 2 groups (the winner presented to 18 groups so they got more votes). We really did get more buzz than I think anyone else there. Everyone was talking about the cube, LOL...

Jeff

[varasano]

pft, one quick note about my recent sauce experiments. I've found that having sauce that's a little more hydrated makes it more sweet. This is strange to me because you sweeten whole tomatoes by oven drying them for example. But my tests are consistent. For a while my sauce was too dry (I strain the water) and this caused a lack of sweetness and occasional spot burning on top. I see your pies have an occasional spot burn on top too, so I thought I'd share this.

Jeff

[pftaylor]

Varasano,
Good job with the cube. One heck of a marketing idea. Judging by some of the photographs on your site it works with the ladies too. Powerful.

Regarding sauce, I have not had my regular San Marzano sauce for 45 days. I have had to resort to some type of Full Red sauce which is dry and pretty much a stop gap. Tonight I ran out of full red and out of desperation I made a Quattro Formaggio Bianco Pizza Raquel. Mutz, Parm, Romano, and Ricotta. For being my initial white pie effort it was pretty good. The crust was illustrious, light, and handled like a Porche in a tight corner.

The dough fermented in the fridge for 48 hours. I tasted more flavor without a loss of handling. So, as my son would say  "Sounds like it was a good thing."

Another good thing appears to be stripping out the oil. I have not had too bad of a time mixing the dough without it and I can't find a downside other than it browns and chars a little differently.

Therefore I'll revise the recipe to exclude the oil for those that can mix it effectively. Call it Bare Raquel if you will. I also am an advocate of process and procedure being more important than ingredients. You can buy a higher quality ingredient but it won't matter unless you nail the prep and stretch steps. I have accomplished that goal. If you notice, the Pizza Raquel recipe is 4/5th's process and 1/5th ingredients.

You could have made my life a lot easier a few months ago if you had bakers percentages and specific quantities and weights on your site as you do now. Back then all you had were statements like "add some flour to some water."

What the heck was that? No one could follow that logic except you so I'm glad you increased the level of specificity recently. I still probably would have experimented to prove to myself what works but I'm sure I could have been a few weeks further down the road otherwise. If you remember, I tried Il Pizzaiolo's recommended recipe on the first page of this thread where no oil was listed either. It didn't work at the time because I wasn't employing the proper technique. It was a long and frustrating road but I figured it out with the help of you and others.

Oh, and I found my second satisfied customer. I just wished they were paying...

[pftaylor]

Here is my son enjoying a slice...

[pftaylor]

A simplified Pizza Raquel recipe without the oil:

                                        Pizza Raquel - Everything You'd Want (except the oil)                                                     

[/u] [/b]             
 
Weight                                  Volume                               Description                   Bakers Percent
16   oz/  456  Grams      3 1/3 cups                                   KASL High Gluten Flour                   100%     
9.6  oz/  273  Grams      1 1/8 cups or 9 fluid oz               Water                                                60%     
.01  oz/ .285  Grams         1/8 teaspoon (baker's pinch)   Instant Dry Yeast                         .0625%     
.32  oz/  9.1   Grams      2 1/4 teaspoon                           Sicilian Sea Salt (fine cut)                    2%
1.3  oz/  37    Grams      2  tablespoons (heaping)            Preferment (I use Varasano)              8% 
27.23oz/775.385 Grams

Produces two dough balls weighing 13 - 14oz (enough for two 15" - 16" pizzas). If you do not have a preferment simply add an extra 1/4 teaspoon of IDY.

Mandatory Preparation Steps
1 - Stir water and salt with spoon/whisk until dissolved in stand mixer bowl.
2 - Add approximately half the flour first, then the yeast. Fit stand mixer with hook attachment.
3 - Mix 30 seconds on stir to incorporate yeast.
4 - Add preferment.
5 - Mix 1 minute on stir to incorporate preferment.
6 - 20 minute autolyse. DO NOT SKIP THIS STEP (or you will die painfully).
7 - Mix on stir speed for 5 minutes, adding in remaining flour gradually over the 5 minute mix.
8 - Mix on 2/3 for 5 minutes.
9 - Check dough temperature with digital thermometer; it should be 80 degrees at the hook.
10 15 minute autolyse. DO NOT SKIP THIS STEP (or you will die really painfully and slowly).
11 Remove dough from bowl and hand knead for 2 minutes on lightly floured prep area.
12 Cut into 2 equal pieces, form into balls, place dough into bowls, cover with shower caps.
13 Place dough in the refrigerator. Ferment for 24+ hours.
14 On the following day(s), remove dough from refrigerator and bring to room temperature. Note: Do not punch down, reform balls, or do anything to the dough other than let it warm to room temperature.

Mandatory Stretching Steps 
1 - Place dough ball in flour bowl. Dust both sides well. Dust prep area with flour.
2 - Flatten ball into a thick pancake-like shape with palm of hand, ~ 2" thick. Keep well dusted.
3 - Press fingertips into center and working toward the rim until skin is 10 inches round. Keep well dusted.
4 - Place hands palm down inside rim and stretch outward while turning. Stretch to 12" round.
5 - Place skin over knuckles (1st time dough is lifted off bench) and stretch to 16"+/-
6 - Pat excess flour off skin. Place on floured peel and dress with favorite toppings.
7 - Peel dressed skin into preheated oven (1 hr+ at max temp) outfitted with tiles.
8 - Bake until lightly or heavily charred (more flavor).

[D.C. Pizza Master]

pft...your pizza's are beginning to resemble the Pizza Classica found from central to northern italy..im impressed man...those look nice and thin......i see your using caputo blue..thats what i use but only in a small amount..i use it because i like the color it gives to the pizza and because it give the dough some elastic pull to it which i like...but it lacks in giving a crispy or flavorable crust IMO...try blending it with the King Arthur and see what happens

[varasano]

Hey pft,

Your pies look great.

>What the heck was that?
That's what I do, LOL... I'm a firm believer that you have to learn to feel the dough because the hydration needs may change based on humidity and mixing variances.  But I could have given a tighter range to start with ;-)

Actually, aside from the measurements, I have a lot of detailed instructions. Mixing, oven, cheese, sauce, suppliers, etc.

Regarding the flattening procedure. I'd advise making a good rim up front, before flattening into a pancake.

(http://www.think2020.com/jv/Dough/DSC00502.JPG)


Jeff

[MTPIZZA]

Ok so between varasano and pft....one of the main differences AFTER the dough is made properly with autolyse is that varasano matures the dough OUTSIDE of a frig....and pft has a frig rest....Jeff pointed out on my pics that I had let the proofing go too long thus the yeast had overfermented. I'm going to try a basement rise where its cool not cold and no frig rise ...long and slow and not too much yeast or starter in the mix and see what happens with the pie by way of flavor and eye appeal..

[pftaylor]

DC PM,
Nice of you to weigh in on my humble efforts. I always appreciate the trained eye of a professional. I will soon order the KA Special and try to see what makes your pies so delicious. I must say that the Caputo Pizzeria 00 flour has produced the single most flavorful pizza crust I have ever personally consumed. If Special is better than that, then I cannot wait.

MTPIZZA,
I'll let Varasano clarify his fermentation process but from what I remember he uses a cold rise period as well. I do not perceive a difference between this portion of my method and his.

So far I've fermented dough for up to two days in the fridge with no adverse affects. Varasano recommends up to six days.

[dankfoot]

DC PM, pftaylor,

What is KA Special?  IS that the blend of durum and AP? "pizza blend"

Thanks,
Chris

[varasano]

MTPIZZA, after mixing I let the dough sit at room temp for 15 min then it goes into the fridge for a minimumn of 24 hours, with  3-4 days common.  My last pie was 6 days and could clearly have gone longer. Marco (pizzanapoletana) uses a room temp rise for 24 hours. No cold rise.

KA Bread flour is labeled "Special"
http://shop.bakerscatalogue.com/detail.jsp?id=3001&pv=1114110503755
This is was I usually use, although I'm trying the Sir Lancelot today.


This is the "pizza blend".  I wouldn't touch it:
http://shop.bakerscatalogue.com/detail.jsp?id=3295&pv=1114111012500

[varasano]

Ok, I made my first KASL batch.  I realize that unfortunately my scale has problems (two 500g balls together weigh 992, etc.)  Therefore I can't give completely accurate measures.

However, I was no where close to 60% hydration.  My best guess, given my scale problems is:
KASL (100%)
Water (66%)
IDY (0.25%)
Salt (2%)

My starter was 25% but those numbers are rolled in 50/50 into the flour and water columns.

The dough was pretty wet, but I have no idea how I could have sqeeze enough flour into the dough to bring it down to 60% hydration.  Maybe another point or 2, but that would be it, then it would be a brick. pft, the way (I think) you are counting the starter is separate.  So if you roll the 3% starter 50/50 into the 2 flour and water categories you get about 61.5% hydration.  From you photos I'd even guess you starter is more than 50% water (It's wetter than mine).  Anyway, considering that, then my hydration is not too far from yours, but still I don't see how I could have gotten much more in there. Hmmm...

One thing we never discussed is post mixing hydration changes. There's always some condensation inside the storage container.  Sometimes balls give off water and it beads on the side. This reduces the hydration somewhat in the first couple of hours in the fridge.  A long time ago I experimented with drying out the containers periodically, thus reducing the hydration.  I figured that many real pizzerias are using a proofer which is humidity controlled and therefore stabilized the hydration at a fixed level regardless of the hydration when the dough comes out of the mixer.  In the end though not much came of these experiments. These balls have given off a bit more water than usual, so maybe I could have gotten more flour in there than I thought.

The dough balls felt smooth and were very well blistered. Perhaps a little firmer than the bread flour. Usually the bread flour dough is only firm if it's very dry. This was wet but still firm.  Not too much difference but it was noticable.

Another thing we never discussed is the state of the starter as it relates to the dough. This starter was fed yesterday and brought to near peak but then I was too tired to make a batch so I put it back in the fridge overnight. This morning I gave it a tiny bit more food and left it on the counter and it peaked. But the the starter is a bit different now because most of the flour has been in with the yeast for a long time and so it's fermenting already. You can really smell the difference between today and yesterday. The dough was made 5 hours ago but already smells fermented and might not need as much time in the fridge now because it, in essence, got a head start.

I'm babbling.... but I'm just I'm just pointing out a few things.

[pftaylor]

Varasano,
Based on your bakers percentages we are making two entirely different pizzas. They may end up tasting remarkably similar however it appears our approaches share some commonality but little else. I'm not sure the best way to close this apparent gap other than to say when I get back from Rochester, I'll have to give your recipe a shot. I'm still not sure however, that anyone other than a DLX owner can give you honest-to-goodness legitimate feedback on your recipe. A few weeks ago I suggested you temporarily revert to the dreaded Kitchen-Aid but I guess you don't like riding a bicycle to the pizza parlor.

The preferment refreshment approach I have been using is a 50/50 blend of water and flour by weight. Therefore, the overall hydration level of Pizza Raquel is a lot closer to 60% (60.36% to be exact) than to 66% when you factor in the salt and commercial yeast.

Our mixing process appears generally similar. But even here your stop and start mixing recommendations last a lot longer than what I've found to be ideal with the Kitchen-Aid. I would consider the differences here to be mostly due to the difference in mixers.

It took me months of picking up tidbits here and there and everywhere to develop the current mixing process. I have no doubt that the final Raquel mixing recommendation somehow (through trial and error actually) fell within the range of optimum absorption rate of water by KASL. The results are simply too robust to conclude otherwise. As a side point, the Pizza Raquel mixing steps worked just as well for Caputo Pizzeria 00 flour. So I'm pretty sure the mixing didactics are sound.

I'm not sure about any particular stretching differences (its not clear from your web site or any posts here what your complete stretching regimen is) so I'll simply address my experience in this area. In particular, after I got back from NY I began utilizing Jose's stretching methods and the quality of the dough shot through the roof. Coincidence? I don't know and I'm not looking a gift horse in the mouth. But suffice to say that I firmly believe in the stretching didactics I've outlined for Raquel. Combined with the robust mixing didactics, it produces a dough which is unbeatable in my biased opinion.

Oh wait. Isn't that bragging?

Nope.

Not if you can back it up. It's fact.

There. The loquacious politically correct crowd should be sufficently quelled. They can now rest easy knowing they are copying someone else's "facts" rather than boastful, ungrounded, remarks.

[varasano]

I'm looking at this spreadsheet and I realize that given that I'm using 25% starter, I can't really just assume that the starter is 50/50 flour-to-water to calculate the final hydration.  I just mix it to a batter but I've never weighed the ingredients exactly.  If the batter was 55/45 for example then the final hydration was only 62.8 and not 66%.   That plus my scale problems and you can toss my numbers. I know for sure that the poolish was slightly drier than usual, but I don't have a measure of what usual is.   I fixed the spreadsheet (haven't posted the new one yet) but will have to measure again next time.

Regardless of the hydration, the dough itself felt good, blistered well and is aging nicely. I'll bake them Sunday which will be a 3 day rise. 

They smell great. Better than most. But I'm attributing this to the changes in the way I handled the culture prior to the mix. It was already smelling great before I started the dough.  I got a recent note from Marco regarding the difference between using a poolish vs a mother dough.  Unfortunately his emails are short and I can't always extract a good next step from them.  But here's what I deduced.  I THINK he's suggesting that before mixing in the starter, begin with a lower hydration that a poolish - a drier, more dough-like and more fermented mix.  By having the poolish almost peak on wed, then refrigerating it and feeding it again on Thurs (adding a tiny amount of flour but no water), it really had a much richer smell in and was a slightly drier mix.  So I may have  been closer to his recommendation almost by accident. But the aroma is telling me I might want to do this in a more directed way next time. Of course his whole procedure is different with a lower percent of starter and no cold rise.  Thinking back, I've tried some experiments in the past with a more dough-like starter,  but at the time I had not mastered the autolyse and mixing procedure so my doughs were always hit and miss and I could never isolate which fermentation process I liked best.   Now that I feel like the mixing thing is pretty much down cold, with extensible, windowpaned, soft and well hydrated dough at my command any time, I can focus more on other factors such as more exact fermenation procedures.  My last 6 day cold rise was so amazing and so much better than the 1 and 3 day rises that came out of the same batch, that it's really got me thinking about the fermenation process more than anything right now.  I've always experimented with 2,3,4 & 5 day rises, but now I can work on these in more isolation since other variables are more in control.  Since you are running many more experiments than I can, you might want to try these and post results.  In any case I would definetly recommend you simply extend the cold rise time from 1 day to 3 or 4 or more and see how you like it.

What has been your Caputo Experience?  I see a lot recently on this and I found a local supplier. Is there a difference in flavor or only in texture?  The Caputo Pizza flour is only 11.5-12.5% protein, which is even less than the KA bread and much less than that KASL. But I know it's ground differently too and probably comes from different strains of wheat.  I don't have too much time to play with both the KASL and the Caputo, unfortunately.

Regarding the stretching, with a well made windowpaning dough, the streching is a non issue. Just stretch gently and it comes right into shape no problem.  Sometimes I put the dough down for 10 seconds to rest half way, then pick it up and keep stretching. But that's about it.  Years ago when I had doughs that were elastic, rather than extensible, I used to stretch in incremental steps as you suggest.  I think that if you test you will see that the autolyse is the real factor that's made the stretching easier and not any particular stretching regime. Just like dropping the oil caused no big loss in extensibility, now that the mixing is better, I think you will find that the same is true of the stretching routine.   

Also, I had on my web page and one of my posts at one point that I mixed for no more than 11 minutes total.  I have decided to pump this recommendation back up to 15.  I'm also considering  lowering my temp recommendation again from 790 down to 780.  I've certainly had some great pies up at 825 as my first photo indicates, but lately these same high temps have been burning my bottoms. I may have continued fluctuations in this recommendation while my dough mix fluctuates.

Finally pft, I would like to try the KA mixer again, I just have limited time and energy for all these experiments. As I've said, I'm fairly confident that I could get a good get the KA to work now that I know what I'm really doing. But I have to continue to master the DLX and I encourage everyone to master the equipment they've got.  The DLX can easily make batches over 3000g (11 13" pizzas) and since I do this to entertain large parties very often, I've got to stick with it. I would not tell someone with at KA to dump it and get a DLX (although I may have said this in the past).  I would say that if you burn out a KA (which is pretty easy) or are otherwise shopping new equipment, the DLX is a no brainer. It's way, way better than the KA. But I'm pretty sure, even from the photos you've posted, that the KA can be mastered.

Jeff

[pftaylor]

Varasano,
When you have time could you kindly post what your exact recipe is so that when I get back from NY I can give it a go? I'm confused as to what your recipe really is at this point, which is why I thought your latest post was it. Sorry.

Regarding Caputo Pizzeria 00 flour, here is my view. I truly don't know what to think about it yet. In my experience, it has produced the very best and absolute worst tasting pies I've made. I have been completely humbled by its secrets and awed by its superior taste compared to KASL. It seems to be much more difficult to understand than KASL which is part of its charm. Its sort of like the girl that plays tough to get versus one that is always available and is calling you to go out. Which one is more mysterious? Which one is more desirable? You could call it a more romantic dough in a sense. The artisans tend to mix it by hand in a number of cases.

Most of the artisan shops seem to favor Caputo over high gluten flours. My sense is it has the potential to be more flavorful under the right circumstances. When combined with a preferment and the right amount of fermentation (either cold or warm) the taste is off the charts. I have found it tends to handle slightly worse than the stronger American flours. But not by much.

A couple of weeks ago I decided to substitute the Caputo for KASL and I came up a winner. I didn't announce the change to my family until after they finished eating. Their feedback matched mine, which was that the pizza was better tasting by far compared to other recent pies. They wanted to know what change I made and when I informed them that it was only the flour they collectively gasped. They couldn't believe that it was the same flour, which less than a month earlier was bitter and fishy tasting. But it was.

So in my relentless search for the ultimate artisan 2nd generation NY style pie perhaps Caputo will play a role. Then again, maybe not. Time will tell.

[varasano]

5 new KASL photos are now up at the bottom of my site.

Overall the results were excellent. The differences between bread and KASL are very limited, in my opinion. I would have to try the KASL a bunch of times to see if there was more I could do with it, but this dough was well within the range of normal variance that I get from batch to batch anyway. I would not have known there was a difference in a blind taste test. But if I had to search for differences this is what I'd get:

The dough had slightly more salt than my normal batch but tasted less salty. It needed salt. The aroma of this dough was incredible. But the taste, while excellent, was not as good as the aroma.  I spoke about the difference in started technique in a post above. I think this accounted for the excellent aroma. But I think the lack of salt held back the potential improvement,

The crust may have been more chewy and less light and springy.

I'm going to try this one more time, then do the caputo pizzeria 00.

I'm not going to post for a while. I was home sick this weekend so I posted a lot, but now I've got to get back to work. I might not post up for the next few weeks.  Good luck to all.

Jeff

[dave]

 Could you please tell me where Mazarros is located in St Pete?  I am coming from Sarasota and cannot find it in the phone book or in a search engine.  Thank you.

[pftaylor]

http://www.mazzarosmarket.com/
2909 22nd Avenue N  St. Petersburg FL  33713       Phone: 727. 321.2400  Fax: 727.327.5446

[varasano]

hey pft,

I did another batch of KASL.  This time I weighed the starter more carefully, but I see now that my scale is more problematic than I thought. This seems recent because the lights are suddenly flickering and the numbers changing.  Doh.  Anyway,  as best I can tell the numbers came out nearly identical to what you post.  I jacked up the salt alot. Marco has it at 3%, much higher than my usual. Since

Flour - 100%
Water - 60.5%
Salt - 3%
IDY - 0.25%

The starter was 20% but I rolled the numbers into the flour and water above. I made 5 doughs.  I think these numbers are largely settled.  If you try the same dough with KA Bread, I think you will find the differences nominal.  Just mix the bread flour for a few extra minutes (15 or so) and that's about it. The gluten development is basically the same. 

Have you thought about trying some different fermentation techniques now that the dough blend is pretty much settled?  If you have time, why don't you try a few with Marco's 24 hr counter rise. I tried it once and it flopped and I don't have time for too many experiments.

Do you have the Sourdo.com italian starter?  That would be a great experiment too.

I'm going to try a much lower temp pie, 725.  Lately the dough has been burning even though the temp has been lowered twice already. Happened with both flours.  I think it has to do with the different mixing procedure or hydration.  The dough is more blistered so may do do better at a lower temp because the thin spots burn easier.  So I want to try something much lower. I used to find the dough had less spring at the lower temps, but my dough has so much spring now anyway, preicely because of the excellent gluten developement, that I think I can spare some to try a lower temp.  It's worth a test.  Do you have a digital thermometer. You never give temps.


Jeff

[Nathan]

Hey not trying to interrupt but I just ordered the Italian cultures yesterday and can't wait to try them out.  I'm gonna have to do a bunch of reading on here or ask some questions before trying it though.  I haven't had anything to use or I would have tried it already and followed this stuff more closely.

I can only get my oven up to about 580 though.  I'm thinking about doing the self cleaning trick but I need to get an infrared thermometer first.