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Author Topic: Factors that affect Bread Ear formation  (Read 3414 times)

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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Factors that affect Bread Ear formation
« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2017, 01:08:02 AM »
Please see last reply...i edited it after second part didnt show properly  thanks

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Factors that affect Bread Ear formation
« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2017, 01:26:34 AM »
Chau..You don't mention autolyse?


Also re Reply 24...is the dough supposed to pass poke test before it goes into fridge?





« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 01:33:15 AM by Jersey Pie Boy »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Factors that affect Bread Ear formation
« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2017, 07:18:53 AM »
Chau, that is a great looking loaf,  looks like you nailed the window between underproof and overproof.

Thank you Barry!  believe it or not that's one of those things I've just started doing.  Is really paying attention to visual and tactile cues to assess just the right amount of fermentation.  I think I have room to push it even further now.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Factors that affect Bread Ear formation
« Reply #43 on: December 30, 2017, 07:24:39 AM »
Looks great Chau! Shaping is such an important step.

With the way you are shaping, are you happy with the crumb you are getting?

Thanks Aric!  For now yes.   I just started reading Trevor Jay Wilsons e-book "Open crumb mastery" and hoping to learn more about the different types of open crumbs and how to produce them.  Highly recommend this for those want to up their bread and dough game.

Online the1mu

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Re: Factors that affect Bread Ear formation
« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2017, 07:31:23 AM »
Ok. That will be a fun journey. Usually tighter shaping can prevent the open crumb structure many value so highly. It doesnít mean there arenít other ways of achieving it, just can be another variable.

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Factors that affect Bread Ear formation
« Reply #45 on: December 30, 2017, 07:44:16 AM »
Those are wonderful! Thanks for all the details, Chau.

So the reason to flip the dough over after preshape is to put floured side in bottom? I see your finished loaves have zero bench flour...How are you making that work?  I think your delineation of bulk vs proof times is extremely key here...plus you're using both rt and cold proof, Do you think that's also a key factor? Most workflows show either but not both...your results speak for themselves8
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Thank you Bill.  I've long admired your bread work but I think you know that!  Yes flipping the relaxed preshaped disk over puts the top on the underside and ready to shape. 

Good catch and question about zero bench flour.   Before loading into the basket I dust the top with a good amount of flour.   I dust the basket itself with just fine semolina or fine (blended) corn flour.  The corn flour is easily brushed off the loaves after their long cold nap and right before baking. 

The RT and Cold proof combo is kind of a new process for me.  The RT proof allows me proof it to a certain extent while the cold nap more or less is a holding phase.  Because I have my fridge set to the low 40's the loaves end up rising just a small amount.  I suspect it's within the first few hours as the loaf begins to cool. Once cold, fermentation likely comes to a crawl.  At this moment I'm not entirely sure how important the cold rest is to ear formation.  I know the bakeries do it, and likely it plays more of a role in boosting flavor of the bread and for maintaining a certain baking schedule.  The loaf I made from a few days ago only had a 2 hour cold nap.  That one, I turned the loaf out of the basket and cold rested it with the top exposed to the cold air to dry it out a bit before baking.


Online the1mu

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Re: Factors that affect Bread Ear formation
« Reply #46 on: December 30, 2017, 07:50:03 AM »
For what itís worth, IMO, the mixed RT proof and refrigerated storage is not a huge factor for flavor or ears.... it is mainly about production schedule.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Factors that affect Bread Ear formation
« Reply #47 on: December 30, 2017, 07:59:35 AM »
Chau..You don't mention autolyse?


Also re Reply 24...is the dough supposed to pass poke test before it goes into fridge?

Bill, I've been doing a modified autolyse.  Salt partially dissolved in the water, flour squeezed in, rest 30m, add starter.  I've also made good bread by mixing everything together and giving the dough extended rest periods between folds.  I think these extended rest periods also help build gluten and maybe comparable to doing a classic autolyse. 

The last 3 loaves haven't passed a poke test prior to their cold nap.  I've been so focused on getting the ears that I've been hesitant to push proofing too far.  Now that I'm getting more ears, I may go back to pushing the proofing boundary to see how that will affect ear formation. 

Btw great questions Bill.  Keep them coming.

« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 08:02:42 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Factors that affect Bread Ear formation
« Reply #48 on: December 30, 2017, 08:06:43 AM »
For what itís worth, IMO, the mixed RT proof and refrigerated storage is not a huge factor for flavor or ears.... it is mainly about production schedule.

I'm thinking you're right about that Aric.  For awhile, I was convinced that the extended cold rest was crucial for the ear formation until I made that loaf a few days ago with only a 2 hour cold rest.  I intend to try and produce ears on a room temp loaf soon to rule out the cold rest theory. 

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Factors that affect Bread Ear formation
« Reply #49 on: December 30, 2017, 08:07:51 AM »
Thank you, Chau...the bread (and me LOL) are works in progress, for sure.


The tricky part for me to figure out is the timing of bulk vs proof. Your technique of flipping the loaf before final shaping is new for me and I should try that (when my loaves at that point aren't so wet..or maybe even when they are). Hold breath, pray and flip  :-D  Reading some posts on The Fresh Loaf last night and i see that I'm not alone in finding it all a challenge. But a good challenge. 


I've been doing a very similar approach to not having bench flour visible, using rice flour which also seems to work well. I love my silicone brushes..great for pizza too. For the last few loaves I've tried patting on some rice flour after cold proof before scoring to provide a drier surface for the lame..but really that doesn't help and puts flour back where i don't want it...on the outside  I'll try the fridge drying for a while before scoring.


Thanks for all this great work!

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Offline GualtieroIlVecchio

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Re: Factors that affect Bread Ear formation
« Reply #50 on: December 31, 2017, 09:07:03 AM »
Ears, clearly, are overrated!  :P


SCNR

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Factors that affect Bread Ear formation
« Reply #51 on: December 31, 2017, 10:40:02 AM »
Ears, clearly, are overrated!  :P


SCNR

I'll take your BIG Ears if you don't want 'em.   :-D. Please tell me what you think gives you such nice ears.  I'm all ears...

P.S. Great looking loaf.   I love the look of the seeded crust. 
« Last Edit: December 31, 2017, 10:45:59 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline GualtieroIlVecchio

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Re: Factors that affect Bread Ear formation
« Reply #52 on: January 03, 2018, 01:14:00 AM »
I'll take your BIG Ears if you don't want 'em.   :-D. Please tell me what you think gives you such nice ears.  I'm all ears...

P.S. Great looking loaf.   I love the look of the seeded crust.
Thank you! (Sorry, I didn't notice that reply earlier).

As I noted in the other thread, I seem to get quite big ears, whenever my dough is slightly underproofed. I apply a shallow score, almost horizontally.

The bread is a "pane siciliano", sort of a semolina bread with about 70% semola rimacinata and 30% wheat. On top some sesame and flax seed.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Factors that affect Bread Ear formation
« Reply #53 on: January 06, 2018, 02:59:08 PM »
I made a double batch of dough yesterday to test and see how much of an effect cold retarding has on the formation of ears if any at all.  After bulk fermentation, the dough was divided and preshaped.  Both loaves were shaped in a similar manner and proofed at RTs for 3 hours or so.  I baked up the first loaf and the other one was cold rested over night.   Both loaves looked nearly identical coming out of the oven with just tiny barely existent ears.   Both were scored similarly with the cold loaf being easier to score.  That didn't seem to help the ear at all.  I think I can rule out cold fermentation for now and go back to focusing on building gluten strength and shaping.
First two pics are of the first RT loaf.
« Last Edit: January 06, 2018, 03:04:11 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Factors that affect Bread Ear formation
« Reply #54 on: January 06, 2018, 05:46:46 PM »
Seriously, Chau? Those gorgeous loaves aren't good enough for you? Please send me your rejects.  ;D

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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Factors that affect Bread Ear formation
« Reply #55 on: January 07, 2018, 08:50:13 PM »
Seriously, Chau? Those gorgeous loaves aren't good enough for you? Please send me your rejects.  ;D

Thank you Bill.  They are great eating for sure.  I'm just on a quest to broaden and deepen my knowledge.  It seems like the more I learn the more I realize how little I actually do understand.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Factors that affect Bread Ear formation
« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2018, 12:20:56 AM »
Been testing out different variables and struggling to get ears.  Finally worked out a few kinks and got a decent one tonight.  Also very pleased with the crumb. 

Offline vtsteve

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Re: Factors that affect Bread Ear formation
« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2018, 12:22:57 AM »
Been testing out different variables and struggling to get ears.  Finally worked out a few kinks and got a decent one tonight.  Also very pleased with the crumb.

Sweet! What was the dough weight?
In grams we trust.
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Factors that affect Bread Ear formation
« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2018, 08:05:19 AM »
Sweet! What was the dough weight?
about 520 grams or so.

Offline Matthew

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Re: Factors that affect Bread Ear formation
« Reply #59 on: January 18, 2018, 09:28:41 AM »
Chau,
This is pretty consistent for me.  I think it's a combination of fermentation and scoring.  70% fresh milled and bolted (Spelt, Red Hard Wheat,Durum,Rye) & 30% Organic Bread Flour @ 75% Hydration. 

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