Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => Cracker Style => Topic started by: Lydia on December 11, 2012, 02:25:54 PM

Title: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on December 11, 2012, 02:25:54 PM
A few days ago I was allowed to go behind the counter of a Me & Ed's for a personal sheeting demo. (I'll outline that a little later)

What intrigued me the most was the dough. It appeared to be a higher hydration dough, that was underdeveloped and highly fermented. A dough that ďseemedĒ this wet, that made an idealic California style cracker pizza, just blows my mind!
__________________

Me & Edís (Milano Restaurants International) has many incarnations, there is a Me & Edís Slices, Me & Edís Grill and then there are Me & Edís Canada ect. The one I visited is a Me & Edís Pizzeria. These are a hit and miss, and a ďmissĒ is pretty bad stuff. The quality of the pizza has everything to do with the dough manager.

This pic is the best online reference
http://www.flickr.com/photos/penmachine/4067931062/  (http://www.flickr.com/photos/penmachine/4067931062/)

The ďoriginal styleĒ pizza crust at this pizzeria is best described as a vintage 1960-70ís Shakeyís/StrawHat Style. The bottom layer is golden crisp and yields easily when bitten into all while being very sturdy. It produces the ďstereo-typical crumbsĒ and has an appropriate amount of medium coarse cornmeal on bottom. It stays crisp throughout the meal. This crust also remains that way in a delivery box, even without a corrugated steam deterrent underneath. The layers above are soft, tender and moist, all while having a somewhat dry leathery-ness to them. The upper most layer has more moisture from the sauce and could be described as ďnearlyĒ doughy, but not in a gross way. There is a total of 9 layers if itís from the first sheeting made without scrap and the layers easily peel away whole from each other. The layers also separate within a crust bubble and can clearly be counted. I have only had a ďnearly gummy layerĒ once, and it was an order late in the evening close to closing time.

_____________________
Information gathered
 http://www.vcstar.com/news/2009/aug/02/branching-out/#ixzz2EIONRFUl
- vcstar.com  (http://www.vcstar.com/news/2009/aug/02/branching-out/#ixzz2EIONRFUl
- vcstar.com)
indicates that they use ďCanadian flourĒ
have their own specially patented brick ovens

I had to read up on Canadian Flour and found this most interesting. Crisping and some comparison to Pendleton.  http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/25538/canadian-flour-better-american  (http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/25538/canadian-flour-better-american)   (A long time ago I read an article about Pendleton changing to a different breed of wheat.)

Specifically they state their dough takes 3 days to make.  http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m3190/is_34_36/ai_91236625/ link is dead but I saved the article.
Quote
ÖTwo-unit franchisee and 42-year company veteran Bob Myers insists the restaurant's popularity is due to its flaky crustÖ
Ö"The way we do our dough is art and science; it's not easy to replicate," he addedÖ
ÖRather than the typical fast-rising or frozen dough used by some of the larger pizza delivery chains, Me-N-Ed's dough takes three days to make, Ferdinandi said. The chain's pizza dough is repeatedly folded and flattened in a roller machine before it is allowed to rest and reach its prime consistencyÖ.

http://www.yelp.com/biz/me-n-eds-camarillo (http://www.yelp.com/biz/me-n-eds-camarillo) Review by brandon s 9/26/2007

Quote
The dough mixture is aged for two to three days, then rolled through a roller and pre-cut into skins that are dusted with cornmeal as opposed to flour and are then aged another day.  This process gives the pizza that wonderful crisp.  If it's not aged long enough, you get a crust that tastes like a cracker.  But when done right,  I personally think that it's the very best kind of crust.

Keep in mind that Pizza Palace from the "west coast" was merged with Straw Hat in 1980.

Displayed at some locations, Stanisalus sauces "Pizziola" and "7/11".
Have their own spice blends.
California Cheese symbol on menu
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on December 11, 2012, 04:31:58 PM
This is great news Lydia....best of luck to you. I know you will do well!  :chef:
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on December 11, 2012, 04:37:08 PM
This is great news Lydia....best of luck to you. I know you will do well!  :chef:

TY  ;D
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on December 11, 2012, 04:53:58 PM
Behind the Counter

Before I start this, I want to explain that the manager at this M&E is very good at what he does, and he is ďveryĒ fast. I really donít have any idea how I was able to take in the details that I did. My mind was literally reeling for hours afterwards. Not to mention that I think I was experiencing a pretty intense adrenaline rush just from having the opportunity that I did. I feel like Iím in shock and the details are just muddy. So I ďmayĒ have to make some retractions/additions later.
__________________________

I had such an exciting experience.12-3-12 I had taken my mom to Me & Edís just after the lunch rush, so the place was empty. I had taken my remaining pizza to the counter to be boxed up and noticed the guy behind the counter was starting to sheet dough but the infernal dough bin was in the way. Sheer impulse took over and asked him if he was making dough and if I could watch. He seemed pleased by my interest and then good naturedly informed me that he charges a dollar. :-D He rolled the dough bin from blocking my view and then changed his mind and told me to just come back behind the counter.

The Owner was also there, he came over to ask; ďHow come you let ďherĒ watch you make dough, but when ďIĒ try, you complain?Ē he responded with a good natured smile and motioned me to come closer to the bench. So, the Owner found himself a place off to the other side, to watch as well.
I noticed the settings weren't marked on the side of sheeter (single pass), so I have no clue what it was set at. I donít recall seeing a brand either, I just know it was white like an Acme and smaller than I've seen at RT.

The Manager pointed to the bin of dough behind me and said that it was the dough that had been in the refrigerator overnight. It had a grayish-tan hue, like old dough, but clearly wasn't blown dough because it was highly expanded and covered in somewhat thick gluten strands and air holes. It had a strong but typical fermented aroma.

The Manager already pulled the amount of dough needed for two batches; one was left on the counter while he worked with the other one. (it looked like it was a combination of fresh and scrap.)
The counter was already dusted with flour. The bench flour looked to be unbleached and finely milled, reminiscent of pastry or cake flour. Not like the Mondako ďdusting flourĒ which is somewhat coarse.


The next thing was that he explained that the dough had to be ďspankedĒ.  :o   I know I had to have the most stupefied look on my face, but oh well.
He began slapping the dough and explained that it ďhad to be spanked to be goodĒ. - This might be a good time to mention that he spoke very quickly with a thick Asian accent and he struggled sometimes to find the right word. Ė They were literally firm, quick, flat handed smacks. At first I thought that this was to slap out any air bubbles, but there werenít any, so it took me a bit to catch on to what was happening. It ďappearedĒ that the dough was being flattened in the center to thin it (it didnít require the oomph that the RT dough did.)

My Mom had taken the spot at the customer counter to watch, she said from her view it looked like he was actually slapping where the dough was to be folded and then he did a few in the center. To be honest, my Momís view was much farther back and this would have been more obvious from her view.

He dusted the sheet, he wasnít using ďa lotĒ of flour, it was a couple of 3 finger pinches that he sprinkled over the sheet, then he just quickly swiped his hand over the dough then pushed any excess onto the bench.
The dough was folded right side then the left side into a tri-fold.
Flour was sprinkled at the top of the sheeter, I couldnít see whether or not this was directly into the moving rollers or just at the shelf close to the rollers.
The Folded dough was rotated 90 degrees and held onto while being ran through the sheeter. The shelf was kinda short. (He said ďsee, easy, right?Ē)

The dough wasnít very long at this point, maybe 2 feet.
The dough was gently pulled so that it laid flat. Manager said ďoops ď and pinched at a spot in the dough, it may have been a bubble since there was now a hole that he didnít patch, but just patted flat
The spanking and flouring of the dough was repeated.

He was really emphasizing the ďdough spankingĒ. Initially I thought this was more for comedic value, but after he kept mentioning it I was beginning to understand that it had some sort of relevance. (My Mom had returned a few days later to ask about it and he said that spanking wasnít "necessary" Ö. but helps the dough rise. Mom asked ďlike kneadingĒ he said ďyesĒ. So your guess is as good as mine on this one.) ???
He did another sprinkling of flour and another tri-fold. (My memory is a little muddy as to whether or not the sheet was spanked or floured first.)

I mentioned that Me & Ed's crust has lots of layers and asked if it was because of the flour and he said ďyesĒ nodding emphatically.

Iím pretty confident that he didn't change the roller settings, never saw his hands leave the dough. The dough didnít develop much length until the final sheeting when he picked up the dough draping it over his arms and ran through the sheeter a final time without folding. (I confirmed this with my Mom who had the better view of the adjustment knob, but she also said she was having trouble catching everything, he was so fast.)
Its finished length was about 5-6 ft.
Starting at the right side, the Manger sprinkled on the flour and rubbed it in with very intentional circular motions that reminded me of a scene from ďKarate KidĒ and repeated this in the center then finished at the left were I was standing. He followed by wiping away excess flour.
There was no docking at the bench, I donít even recall a docker, and the crust doesnít show any signs of being docked. So, I guess itís not docked.

He grabbed a cutter ring and a bench scraper and cut around the die with the just a tip/corner. The scraps were tossed aside on the bench. The skins were stacked on a pizza pan without ďanythingĒ between so I asked if they stuck together. He said that the flour keeps them from sticking or it would be a mess. I pointed to the scraps and asked what they did with those. He said heíd show me. He placed the skins in a clear bag and he said he was taking them to the refrigerator. ďsee easy right?Ē

The manager said many times it was "easy" but the owner said that ďhe makes it look easier than it isĒ.

The Manager motioned me over to the bench as he grabbed the blob gassy dough, about the size of a volley ball. Iím not confident on that one because it wasnít degassed and it was pretty slack. It also wasnít weighed. I actually didnít see a scale anywhere, but there might have been one in the back with the mixer.
I asked if that was the fresh dough and he confirmed.

I canít recall how this came up, but he explained that the scraps will sheet much better than the fresh dough. He said the scraps make better dough.  Boy, was he right. He just stretched the fresh dough to I dunno maybe 15 inches.. and plopped it on the counter and sprinkled it well with flour. The dough didn't resist not one bit. It acted like a high hydration dough, which was really messing with my mind. It reminded me a lot of the ďbatter methodĒ yeast dough I use for doughnuts. He ran it through the sheeter and it really wasnít pretty. It was dimply and blobby. "See?" he said.
He grabbed the scraps and kinda pressed them into a rectangle floured and ran that through the sheeter. "Much better huh?" It made a nice smooth sheet.

The fresh dough was laid on top of scrap dough with short ends tucked under the scrap, floured and sheeted.
He said that it didnít matter which was on top (but I disagree. The scrap on bottom is going to be drier and crisp up better. Having the fresh dough on top at the sauce level would account for the moist doughier layer)

Then the whole thing was repeated as above.

 
This is where my dough sheeting lesson ended and conversation started with the Owner on the history.
We had to step out of the Mangers way, as he never stopped working. He asked if I wanted to see how it was baked, informed it would cost me another dollar as he opened the oven door and slid it into the oven with the pizza peel. ďThatís it!Ē



::::::::::::: Making a standard pizza :::::::::::::
Skins do not look like there any rise at all and I believe they come straight from the refrigerator to the make station.
Corn meal on a wooden/gypsum type Pizza paddle
When they are making the pizza, they spread out a layer of cornmeal before laying the dough down.
Corn Meal is somewhere between coarse and medium.
Cups are used to portion the Toppings/cheese
::::::::::::: The oven :::::::::::::
The oven is stated as being exclusive to Me & Edís.
As a matter of fact, the brand embossing on the side of the oven Says ďMe & EdísĒ which I donít believe I have ever seen before.
Top and Bottom Decks were set to 550F
Despite the cornmeal, it looks like the skins occasionally stick to the fire brick and they have a scraping tool to help it release.
They also use a bubble popper.
The bottom crust stays crispy for an extraordinary amount of time. Even when it is in a box for delivery. There is nothing in the box to prevent it from steaming the crust soft either.  But it softens by the next day.
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: ThatsAmore on December 11, 2012, 07:59:08 PM
Fantastic informative write up Lydia  :pizza:  :pizza:
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on December 11, 2012, 08:30:34 PM
Fantastic informative write up Lydia  :pizza:  :pizza:

TY  ;D
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on December 11, 2012, 08:37:00 PM
I like how your mom gets into this stuff too  8).....got a feeling this here is going to be one awesome thread.  :chef:
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on December 11, 2012, 10:46:09 PM
I like how your mom gets into this stuff too  8).....got a feeling this here is going to be one awesome thread.  :chef:


 :-D oh don't get me started on my "Mother". When I was very young she taught me all my core baking and confectionary skills, all of her best instructional cookbooks were at my disposal, we on a tour at every fast food/pizza joint that provided one, but dear lord, she comes running to me when something she made didn't turn out. The answer is always the same, "Mom ??? you know better, you're the one that taught me." I'd love to blame it on ageing, but she's always been that way. Very intuitive baker, her pies are highly sought after, but she "gliches"  :-D
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on December 11, 2012, 10:50:27 PM
I would like to introduce to you the new toy Iíve been playing with for the past week.
Fleischmann's pizza crust yeast (yeast, enzymes, sorbitan monostearate, L-cysteine, ascorbic acid.) http://www.pizzacrustyeast.com/ (http://www.pizzacrustyeast.com/) 
I had snubbed this yeast because, well, it just wasnít marketed properly. It just sounded like a gimmick for rapid-rise yeast. I wanted flavor and texture, not speed, so I blew it off. (Their site doesnít mention ANYTHING about the ingredients. If it had, I would have been all over it.)

Then, I came across this write up and my jaw went slack. http://www.woodfiredkitchen.com/?p=1146 (http://www.woodfiredkitchen.com/?p=1146)
_______________________
For measuring Iím treating it as if it were IDY.

So farÖ.
Doughs are taking in way more flour.
Itís cutting fermentation time by a full day or more. (Might be even faster as I increase water temps. Currently at 90F.)
Same day doughs have the flavor profile and golden coloring of overnight dough. (wishing my camera wasn't broke)
Overnight (24 hr) cold ferment equivalent to 72 hour cold ferment. BUT better!  The bottom crusts are coming out ďCalifornia thin crustĒ perfect. The flavor is very developed, it isnít ďyeasty or beer likeĒ but it is a match for the current M&E.

So over-all itís just been a ďvery goodĒ pizza week.

Side note: Spec. sheet on similar SAF product for USA http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/bakers-yeast-products/dry-yeast/saf-instant-premium-0  (http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/bakers-yeast-products/dry-yeast/saf-instant-premium-0)

SAF Pizza Yeast Ė France/Canada - no spec sheet
http://www.lesaffre.com/en/yeast-baking/leading-brands/saf-pizza.html
 (http://www.lesaffre.com/en/yeast-baking/leading-brands/saf-pizza.html)
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: ThatsAmore on December 11, 2012, 11:06:30 PM
Lydia,

I'm not sure if you caught this post of mine involving the Fleischmann's Pizza Crust Yeast

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1311.msg217102.html#msg217102

I too have found it to be good   :chef:

Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on December 11, 2012, 11:20:54 PM
Lydia,

I'm not sure if you caught this post of mine involving the Fleischmann's Pizza Crust Yeast

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1311.msg217102.html#msg217102

I too have found it to be good   :chef:



Nope, I looked at the the formula, admired the pic of your bottom crust, then completely missed that you used the Pizza Crust Yeast. IN my defense I was speed reading through threads to try and catch-up.

So that's good, everyone's at least been acquainted then  :D
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on December 11, 2012, 11:21:45 PM

I forgot to mention, how beautifully the doughs are rolling out.  :o
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on December 11, 2012, 11:26:23 PM
I forgot to mention, how beautifully the doughs are rolling out.  :o
Oh boy....your "newfound toy" could not have come at a more opportune time. This is gonna be interesting.... :chef:
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: ThatsAmore on December 11, 2012, 11:29:14 PM
Nope, I looked at the the formula, admired the pic of your bottom crust, then completely missed that you used the Pizza Crust Yeast. IN my defense I was speed reading through threads to try and catch-up.

So that's good, everyone's at least been acquainted then  :D

No problem on missing that post over at Shakeys thread, I'm just pointing back out to validate of your findings as well.

As I stated a few posts down, the next day's left over dough w/ scraps was even tastier.  I didn't take pics as it look identical to the night before, but it had even better taste.  I had enough dough to cook the neighbors a 10" out of that last batch, and so that made me look even better  ;D
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on December 11, 2012, 11:37:00 PM
As I stated a few posts down, the next day's left over dough w/ scraps was even tastier.  I didn't take pics as it look identical to the night before, but it had even better taste.  I had enough dough to cook the neighbors a 10" out of that last batch, and so that made me look even better  ;D

That cool  8)
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Mad_Ernie on December 12, 2012, 10:41:43 AM
Okay, now I am intrigued.  I just bought a jar of regular Fleishmann's yeast, but after we go through that, I am going to find some of the Pizza yeast.  I am also curious to see how this would work with my wife's bagels.  :D

-ME
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on December 12, 2012, 10:54:04 AM
Okay, now I am intrigued.  I just bought a jar of regular Fleishmann's yeast, but after we go through that, I am going to find some of the Pizza yeast.  I am also curious to see how this would work with my wife's bagels.  :D

-ME
[/quotes

The packets say not recommended for bread baking, but you know how that goes. I think it could possibly work for bagels, you'll just have to fine tune the process. The flavor would be killer  :chef: So now you've got me intrigued  :o
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: ThatsAmore on December 12, 2012, 07:27:08 PM
I got my Fleishmann's Pizza Crust Yeast Wally Neighborhood Market
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on December 12, 2012, 07:34:15 PM
Lucky You  ;D mine didn't carry it, none of the west coast chain that do carry it are nowhere near me.

I had to order online. It cost a pretty penny.

Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on December 12, 2012, 07:34:44 PM
Right now I'm trying to decide on method an technique. I don't have anything solid, but it looks like it's going in the kitchenaid.
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on December 12, 2012, 08:10:28 PM
Have you decided what flour you are going to use Lydia? I'd like to play along on this one and need to get my ducks in a row.  ;)
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on December 12, 2012, 08:38:44 PM
Harvest King/ GM B4B

I can't imagine needing to change this for the M&E clone.
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Mad_Ernie on December 12, 2012, 10:51:29 PM
Right now I'm trying to decide on method an technique. I don't have anything solid, but it looks like it's going in the kitchenaid.

For this type of dough, I think that is a safe bet. 

-ME
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Jet_deck on December 12, 2012, 11:08:07 PM
Lydia will knock this one dead, I can already tell.
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: DNA Dan on December 14, 2012, 02:17:50 AM
Isn't that pizza crust yeast just the rapid rise yeast with a dough relaxer included in the package? I wonder if there is a difference from just using IDY with some PZ44 or something added?

I bought the 1 lb sack of Fleichmann's instant I identified in another thread regarding the shakey's bag. It works great so far and tastes better than SAF or Red Star in my opinion.

Regarding the layering of scraps in your description of the process, I could easily see the expansion rates varying by the age and hydration of the layers, thus encouraging separation upon heating. What I find more intriguing is the fact that you didn't observe any changes in thickness going on with the sheeter adjustments. I wonder if they just keep it dialed as the finished thickness, then just force it through and has more to do with the number of passes? I have tried this on my sheeter and even though the thickness is set the same, I need to pass it ~5 times to make ANY dough come out even at the same thickness. If I only run it through say 2-3 times, it will be a thicker skin.

I did some more experiments last weekend comparing Monadako to AT. The only reason I mention it here is because I found the Mondako held the internal crumb structure after it cooled, whereas the AT did not. It sort of "deflated". So I think the suggestion of BFB or even APF is really suitable for this style. AT seems to need more heat than weaker flours and it does not perform as well in the conveyor. I actually got a crunchier product from the weaker flour. This is good news to regular folks who just have a regular home oven.
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on December 14, 2012, 11:40:41 AM
Isn't that pizza crust yeast just the rapid rise yeast with a dough relaxer included in the package? I wonder if there is a difference from just using IDY with some PZ44 or something added?

My thoughts are inline with yours. The L-cysteine is the only thing common between them. The primary thing is the enzymes that are kicking the fermentation process into high gear. Pendleton Pizza Flour has some enzymes added to it. But in both cases we don't know which enzymes are being used.

Also in the Pizza Crust Yeast the acidic acid is ramping up the yeast activity to make a lighter flakier crust. So in that case, Fruit Fresh in the canning isle should work fine. So I was planning on working something out with the Pizza Flour, Fruit Fresh, then add my homemade "dead yeast" from ADY (for the monosterate) to replace the l-cysteine.

There are a couple of ways to kill the yeast but I think the spice grinder method is more reliable than killing it with high/low water temps.

So it "seems" to be doable, but I wont be ready for that until I've played with this Pizza Yeast for a while.

 
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on December 14, 2012, 12:24:32 PM

Regarding the layering of scraps in your description of the process, I could easily see the expansion rates varying by the age and hydration of the layers, thus encouraging separation upon heating. What I find more intriguing is the fact that you didn't observe any changes in thickness going on with the sheeter adjustments. I wonder if they just keep it dialed as the finished thickness, then just force it through and has more to do with the number of passes? I have tried this on my sheeter and even though the thickness is set the same, I need to pass it ~5 times to make ANY dough come out even at the same thickness. If I only run it through say 2-3 times, it will be a thicker skin.


Like I mentioned, the Manager was "quick". I agree that he "at least" needed to click it down once for the final long sheet. I believe their sheeter was an Annetts single pass.
It didn't sheet as well as the Sommerset or Acme versions I've seen as RT. It did remind me more of my pasta machine, just bigger and a bit more efficient. I never heard the motor strain, but the motor was quite, like at RT.

I played a bit with the pasta sheeter, with the motor attached, and had a similar experience.
 
What "appears" to be going on is that the primary folding and sheeting are comparable to the "kneading" phase in pasta making. So the dough is folded and sheeted to condition the under developed dough without focusing on creating length, and in this case, our beloved "layering".

So in pasta making this is done on the widest settings, on my machine this is #1 and 2.

If the dough is at a good hydration level and as long as I have the "motor" set on it's higher setting, I can run it through the pasta maker without changing the width. I just need to flatten the trifold a bit. But eventually it needs to be brought down to the next lowest setting (width) at least once during the" kneading/layering phase" to make a smooth sheet.
 

Quote
I have tried this on my sheeter and even though the thickness is set the same, I need to pass it ~5 times to make ANY dough come out even at the same thickness. If I only run it through say 2-3 times, it will be a thicker skin.

This doesn't seem to be happening with the pasta maker, not even with my low hydration pasta dough. When I do this again, I'll double check.

Can you drop it a bit lower to start with so that you end with the right thickness with the 3 passes?



Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on December 14, 2012, 12:39:36 PM
Have you decided what flour you are going to use Lydia? I'd like to play along on this one and need to get my ducks in a row.  ;)

I'm also using generic shortening, partially hydrogenated soy and cotton seed oils, transfat 3.5.

Walmart "Great Value" shortening is a clone of current crisco, so that one isn't the same, but it "might" still work. I just don't like the flavor.

Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on December 14, 2012, 01:13:35 PM
I'm also using generic shortening, partially hydrogenated soy and cotton seed oils, transfat 3.5.

Walmart "Great Value" shortening is a clone of current crisco, so that one isn't the same, but it "might" still work. I just don't like the flavor.


Sounds good, thanks. And just so we have some variations/trials here I thought I would use my trusty 'ol Armour lard. It is what we used when I started out in Chi-town thin mom and pop joints back in the early 70's. Not trying to persuade your methods, Lydia, because I am very interested in seeing how you tackle this thing....but I just wanted to mention a technique that I have suggested(to muted ears I think) several times over the past year. Back in the day we always started our dough out by using the big whisk head on the Hobart to pelletize/course grain the flour and lard together. Sorta reminds you of a pie crust technique, no? Anyway, once that was done we would then swap out to the hook attachment.
Bob
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on December 14, 2012, 02:13:21 PM
Back in the day we always started our dough out by using the big whisk head on the Hobart to pelletize/course grain the flour and lard together. Sorta reminds you of a pie crust technique, no? Anyway, once that was done we would then swap out to the hook attachment.
Bob

I use that technique for quite a few things, but "for now" I have the shortening on the low side. I gave it a try last night and am thinking that the FP would do a better job more quickly. The question is "do I really want to dirty 2 machines"?

There are also a few other methods that seem to be working, 'so far". The L-cysteine is really opening up a lot of options for dough handling. I'm trying to get through all these quickly so we can get this thing going.

Oh, and the camera I want is on sale. So, as long as they have it in, I should have a camera over the weekend so I can show you guys what's going on. Yay  ;D





Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on December 14, 2012, 02:16:44 PM
Sounds good, thanks. And just so we have some variations/trials here I thought I would use my trusty 'ol Armour lard. It is what we used when I started out in Chi-town thin mom and pop joints back in the early 70's.
Bob

Lard is always welcome   :chef:
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on December 14, 2012, 02:26:57 PM
Hey Dan?

Does Mondako also have the L-cysteine in it?
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: DNA Dan on December 14, 2012, 03:20:30 PM
This doesn't seem to be happening with the pasta maker, not even with my low hydration pasta dough. When I do this again, I'll double check.

Can you drop it a bit lower to start with so that you end with the right thickness with the 3 passes?

So what causes this on the Somerset sheeter is a spring tension on the roller so if the dough is too hard to be pressed at that thickness, it will spread them open a little more. I guess it's like a fail-safe to protect the motor. I can totally go thinner and do less passes, just that it really depends upon hydration with where I end up. That's why I was asking if you noticed they kept the sheeter static. I think the higher end ones will have this "clutch" feature whereas the cheaper ones are probably just geared directly to the shaft like the pasta roller. You won't have this effect on your pasta roller, if it's too tough to roll the motor will just bog down and possibly die.

My understanding is Mondako is simply a blend of hard spring wheats from MONtana and North DAKOta. Thus the name Mondako. It's like a stronger APF, probably more equivalent to the BFB/Harvest King lines. 
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Pete-zza on December 14, 2012, 03:33:20 PM
My understanding is Mondako is simply a blend of hard spring wheats from MONtana and North DAKOta.

Dan,

That apparently is no longer the case. See Reply 142 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151671/topicseen.html#msg151671.

Peter
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on December 14, 2012, 04:27:21 PM
So what causes this on the Somerset sheeter is a spring tension on the roller so if the dough is too hard to be pressed at that thickness, it will spread them open a little more. I guess it's like a fail-safe to protect the motor. I can totally go thinner and do less passes, just that it really depends upon hydration with where I end up. That's why I was asking if you noticed they kept the sheeter static. I think the higher end ones will have this "clutch" feature whereas the cheaper ones are probably just geared directly to the shaft like the pasta roller. You won't have this effect on your pasta roller, if it's too tough to roll the motor will just bog down and possibly die.

My understanding is Mondako is simply a blend of hard spring wheats from MONtana and North DAKOta. Thus the name Mondako. It's like a stronger APF, probably more equivalent to the BFB/Harvest King lines. 

Exactly what I needed to know.  ;D

As far as I can recall, it was static the entire time.

It looked as though it didn't have as much compression as the RT doughs from the Acme and Sommerset. Which is why is reminded more of the pasta machine.

So when the fresh dough went through, it was comparable to the pasta machine on the widest setting. Not very compressed.
When the RT thick crust dough (non laminated dough) goes through the sheeter, they are much more dense and smooth. A lot more.

At M&E when the scraps went through, they were more like RT. But sometimes, the scraps don't form as well on the bottom crust.

So...like it has the springs but with less compression.  :-\

So, even though ME dough appears wetter than RT, it "still" looks like there isn't as much compression going on.

Hoping I'm making some kind of sense here. I feel like it's hard to describe.
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on December 14, 2012, 04:28:31 PM
Dan,

That apparently is no longer the case. See Reply 142 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.msg151671/topicseen.html#msg151671.

Peter

Perfect! Thank you Peter.  ;D
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on December 14, 2012, 04:53:53 PM
 I believe the "spring tension" on those are adjustable....right Dan?
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on December 14, 2012, 05:14:30 PM
Here...I think this is our guy.... SDR 4


http://www.middleby.com/service_2000/technical_pubs/pdf/mm/dough_rollers/Sheeter%20SDR4.pdf (http://www.middleby.com/service_2000/technical_pubs/pdf/mm/dough_rollers/Sheeter%20SDR4.pdf)
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on December 14, 2012, 06:07:11 PM

So, am I understand this correctly??

That this machine has the possibility of setting starts, stops, increase and decrease of the roller gap, "without" manual operator intervention. If so, that would explain it, I guess.
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on December 14, 2012, 06:14:24 PM
So, am I understand this correctly??

That this machine has the possibility of setting starts, stops, increase and decrease of the roller gap, "without" manual operator intervention. If so, that would explain it, I guess.
It has two "stops" that you can set but the operator has to hit the "quick set handle" to jog between the two pre set thickness settings "stops"
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on December 14, 2012, 06:43:59 PM
 Ok, so that does line up more with what I was seeing. So he probably popped the handle for the last run through when I was asking questions and I missed it.

Thank you  ;D
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on December 14, 2012, 06:57:50 PM
Ok, so that does line up more with what I was seeing. So he probably popped the handle for the last run through when I was asking questions and I missed it.

Thank you  ;D
Yes, it wouldn't be hard to miss, most old pros get in a "groove" and can change settings with a forearm or brush of the chest in one sweeping motion while reloading the dough. I'll bet your mom will catch it next time Lydia.... ;D
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on December 14, 2012, 07:02:49 PM
 :-D

well, I be watching for it next time, from the better angle  ;)
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: DNA Dan on December 15, 2012, 01:38:47 AM
That's one "quick action" lever :-D. I'll have to open mine up to see if there is indeed a clutch in there. I have the synthetic rollers in mine, so perhaps some of these 40% hydration doughs are flexing the rollers a bit. It doesn't sound like it's working hard, it just remains somewhat thicker than the same setting using say a 50% hydration dough. However if I pass it a few more times, it will get down to where it should be. Interestingly enough in the instructions you posted, in the part that explains about setting the stops, they mention to not use the same dough piece over and over again to set the final thickness.

The deal with these two "stops" is their dough management is dialed in. They know exactly how hydrated the dough is going to be every time and how many passes they need to make at each setting. That's why it's difficult to keep the same technique in my experiments for different doughs. It may take more or less passes at a given setting to reach the thickness I am used to.

Peter, thanks for the clarification on the Mondako. Gee don't I feel ripped off now! And here I was all proud that Montana actually had something of major importance to contribute to the world.  ::)
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Pete-zza on December 15, 2012, 06:26:21 AM
Peter, thanks for the clarification on the Mondako. Gee don't I feel ripped off now! And here I was all proud that Montana actually had something of major importance to contribute to the world.  ::)

Dan,

In the flour world, this would be my nominee from Montana: http://www.wheatmontana.com/about.php  ;D.

Peter
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on December 16, 2012, 10:23:47 AM
The reason I asked about the Mondako was for some reason I had in my head that it had the l-cystein. I went shopping yesterday at cash n carry and they had the Mondako "thin Crust" Pizza Mix. http://www.pfmills.com/mondako-pizza-mix-products-19.php (http://www.pfmills.com/mondako-pizza-mix-products-19.php) This Mondako does have the l-cystein.



Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Pete-zza on December 16, 2012, 01:48:36 PM
Lydia,

Foremost Farms sells a product called PZ-44 that comprises whey and L-cysteine: http://www.foremostfarms.com/Commercial/pdfs/Specifications/TDS_PZ44_450.pdf.

Peter

EDIT (2/7/13): For an alternative to the above link that is no longer operative (since the PZ-44 product line was sold to another company), see http://web.archive.org/web/20060311221117/http://www.foremostfarms.com/products/ingredient/pdf/450PZ44.pdf.
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: fazzari on December 16, 2012, 03:11:21 PM
I might be wrong about this....but, I assume that the two stops on the machine are meant more for use on one dough ball than a sheet of dough...this would make it a two pass machine when using dough balls.

John
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on February 01, 2013, 10:31:04 AM
OK, I think Iím back to the official M&E trials now.

My local M&E has a shiny new sheeter. It still looks like the Annettís Sheeter mentioned earlier in this thread except that is stainless steel.
I havenít had another opportunity to see the thin crust sheeting to confirm any of the questions.


I stopped ordering pizza late on weekends due to poor crust quality (massive gum line) and got a new camera, so I was finally able to get some decent pics so you can see what Iím trying to accomplish and can use them as reference points.

Pic 1: crisp, nearly uniform golden bottom crust
Pic 2: Ultra thin golden layer, dry layer, doughy layer
Pic 3 close up of open crumb in crisp layer, ultra thin golden layer,
Pic 4: Bubble separation between crisp and doughy layers
Pic 5: soft but leathery separations in the doughy layer.

Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on February 01, 2013, 10:48:49 AM
M&E crust breakdown from bottom up
cornmeal
ultra thin golden layer
dry layer
moist layer
ultra thin gum line/wet line.



Iíd like to point a few things out in the pics but first Iíd like to mention a few things for troubleshooting.

 
Quote
Doughy layer is uncooked (i.e., ungelatinzed) dough. As a result, it has the appear¨ance and texture of raw dough. Basically, doughy layer is raw dough that hasnít yet cooked. So the main cure is more heat or longer bake time. John Correll Ė Encyclopizza

The difference between raw dough vs. doughy layer is that raw dough will have a wet stretchy quality to it whereas the doughy layer is about the same but isnít as severe. Itís caused from underproofing after balling or overweight dough balls. It will have moist dense undercooked dough that will have a somewhat spongy reaction when pressed between the fingers. To get an idea of the texture, think of mashed Wonderbread, kinda dense and doughy but not stretchy. Most people will find a ďtrueĒ doughy layer acceptable to eat.

- In the unique case of M&E pizzas, the doughy layer isnít really a ďdoughy layerĒ, it is fully cooked. It isnít spongy nor does it compress* (see below). It is just a softer layer with higher hydration. Same dough just softer because it isnít sheeted as much= less flour, less development of the dough. In pic 1 you can see that the dough is completely cooked through.


Quote
Gummy layerósometimes called gel layeróis cooked (coagu¨lated) dough that is lacking air cells. During baking the cellular structure collapsed and the air dissipated, resulting in a dense, grayish, translucent mass with a gummy (gelatinous) texture....... Gummy layer varies in thickness from very thin to almost the entire crust. Itís caused by excessive diastatic action in the dough. So the cure is to reduce diastatic activity. Unlike with doughy layer, extended baking will not eliminate gummy layer. John Correll Ė Encyclopizza

To expand on Johnís definition there is another is another type of gummy layer.

One is caused by wet sauce coming into contact with unhydrated or underhydrated bench flour on the skins or by using lower hydration formulas because the flour is open to more hydration. In both cases it creates a true gummy layer ďtranslucent layerĒ except that it is typically clear to yellow in color. Whereas the gummy layer from over-fermented or dead dough is dense, rubbery has some level of a grayish hue.

Because of the bench flour, Sheeted doughs, no matter the hydration are especially prone to developing the clear/yellow gelatin layer caused by moisture migration and is exacerbated with the use of wet sauces. Although Iím finding it less of an issue with wet sauces that include oil and/or cornsyrup.

- The M&E pizzas develop a thin barely noteworthy gelatin layer due to moisture migration from a wet sauce. When looking for the gummy layer, do not use pic 2 or 3. There is an illusion in these. This pizza was cut immediately after removing from the oven before the crust had set and caused compression* over these lines. If you look at pic one, and 4 you will have a better representation of how thin and tender the gel line is. Itís texture is kind of a cross between a gum line and a thin doughy layer.
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on February 01, 2013, 11:23:19 AM
Lydia,
Thanks for the great pics of M&E pizza. I've never had one and am looking forward to it.
Yes, they have a very thin gum line and I hope you're not worrying too much about that...it is almost inevitable, I believe, with this type of sheeted dough. I know you often hear people report about "the dreaded gum line"....I happen to like it. ;D
Anyway, this dough is a bit thicker than I realized....hope it is not giving you too much trouble.  :chef:
Bob
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Pete-zza on February 01, 2013, 11:23:57 AM
Lydia,

I noticed that you quoted material from John Correll's Encyclopizza. John used to make that document available for free but now sells it. Did you purchase it by any chance or did you find the material you quoted elsewhere?

Peter
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on February 01, 2013, 11:48:48 AM
Peter

I pulled these from my downloaded free copy from decades ago.
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on February 01, 2013, 12:03:28 PM
Lydia,
Thanks for the great pics of M&E pizza. I've never had one and am looking forward to it.
Yes, they have a very thin gum line and I hope you're not worrying too much about that...it is almost inevitable, I believe, with this type of sheeted dough. I know you often hear people report about "the dreaded gum line"....I happen to like it. ;D
Anyway, this dough is a bit thicker than I realized....hope it is not giving you too much trouble.  :chef:
Bob

Bob

So far there is not issue with gumline. Which is awesome. I mostly have that up to reference the difference between gumline and doughline and how M&E is unique.

When I did my first run on this clone, the formula was already "very nearly" where it needed to be. I thought I would have this done already or at least steaming along.

Right now I'm having a "user" problem. I went through all my notes over and over, couldn't find a thing, then yesterday, I noticed I was using my #50 scoop for the volume amount for the shortening vs the #60. I use the portioning disher because it make measuring shortening a breeze and as long as I level it, It is highly accurate.
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on February 04, 2013, 01:15:30 PM
Iím using a 2 step mixing method: aka ďbatter methodĒ that doesn't fit into any of the definitions listed in the glossary. It's a method used for sweet doughs and commercial laminated cracker production. Coating the flour with shortening for a softer crumb, 45 minutes rest for autolyse type benefits (reduce mix time (under developed dough), extensibity etc.

ME1 - Lydiaís Me N Edís Clone for the KitchenAid - 2 step mixing method

(Weights were translated with KD-8000 scale not the Dough Calculator)
1 tsp. / .20 oz. /6 g. iodized salt
14 oz. Harvest King Flour, DIVIDED (7 oz/198g)
1 T / .45 oz. / 13 g. AP shortening (full trans-fat) #60
1 tsp/.10 oz. /3 g. Pizza Crust Yeast
8.5 oz/ 241 g tap water 110F

Additional HK flour required for rolling/sheeting.
Albers Cornmeal for dusting peel




Step 1: Wet premix; similar benefits as an autolyse- May be easier to do by hand, but timing it in the mixer helps prevent accidental over mixing.

Attach paddle attachment. (Using the Whip works but isnít necessary)
Add to mixing bowl, in order (lightest to heaviest to help with distribution)
7 oz. Flour

Mixing on Speed 3: stir in
1 tsp Salt
1 T Shortening

Mix on Speed 3 for 15-20 seconds (time not too crucial); until shortening is evenly mixed into flour. PIC 1
To test: Flour will coat fingers lightly when stuck into flour mixture. PIC 2

Mix in 1 tsp. Yeast (when adding the yeast 5 minutes after the water the final dough comes out stiffer? Or maybe due to more shortening?)
With mixer running on Speed 1; Pour in slowly water (110F) On speed 3 stir for 3-4 seconds only, just until all flour is moistened and a gloppy somewhat lumpy batter forms. DO NOT OVER MIX.
The batter will look looser than it is and will have a somewhat slimy smooth texture. PIC 3

Remove paddle and scrape bottom of bowl.
Let batter rest; covered, for 45 minutes at room temperature. PIC 4 a bit bubbly; like pancake batter or SD starter

Step 2
When time is up; attach dough hook and stir down batter on Speed 2.
Running on speed 3 sprinkle in the in rest of the flour (7 oz./ 198 g)
The batter tends to resist taking in the flour, so you will need to scrape the bowl with a rubber spatula a few times to get the batter to open up. (This only happens with the pizza yeast.)
Bump the speed up if dough hook is having trouble incorporating flour. I have a 6 qt bowl; if yours is smaller you may not need to..
Otherwise continue to mix on Speed 3-4 until all flour is incorporated. But not any further. It will look scrappy before it is finished kneading, so donít add any more water; just let it run its course. As soon as it is no longer scrappy; Stop kneading. You should have a lumpy, underdeveloped dough. It will not have a smooth surface. At this point the dough tightens up very quickly. If you have a C-hook it will take a bit longer to knead the dough.

The finished dough should be very soft and squishy also somewhere between tacky and sticky. If youíve kneaded it longer it will be more tacky and less sticky and vice-versa. PIC 5

Remove dough hook; and cover. No need to oil, dough releases cleanly with a rubber spatula.
Let dough rest for 2-3 hours at room temperature. At 1 hour have a nice rise, dough is ready at 2 hours.

Scrape dough from bowl with spatula and Divide dough into 3rds approx. 210g, place in a qt. Ziploc baggies. (After scraping from bowl the surface should be fairly smooth and tacky, not sticky. Bowl cleans fairly well.) PIC 6, 7, 8

Place in refrigerator overnight.
Remove in morning to warm all day at room temp. about 10 hrs.
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on February 04, 2013, 01:17:31 PM
PICS 5,6,7,8
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on February 04, 2013, 01:19:14 PM
About Ingredients:

Harvest King Flour and not GM B4B, donít yet know if there is going to be any difference.
Mortonís Iodized salt: Contains salt, calcium silicate, dextrose, potassium iodide.
All purpose Shortening: SF generic shortening, partially hydrogenated soy and cotton seed oils, transfat 3.5
Fleischmann's Pizza Crust Yeast (yeast, enzymes, sorbitan monostearate, L-cysteine, ascorbic acid.) temperature range: 120-130F (140F kill temp)
Tap water: using 110F which falls close to the recommended temperature for Pizza Crust yeast.
Although for this style of cold fermented dough, the ideal ďfinished dough temperatureĒ should fall into the 85-87F range. For me; this is usually requires water to be 90F.

Found a convenient printable chart from General Mills professional; here. http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/water-temperature-chart  (http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/water-temperature-chart)

I was getting a lot of yeast beer flavors at 120 F and a full day room temp. ferment. bench rest bulk ferment
Not the flavor profile for M&E. dough from the mixer at about 90 to 100 degrees F
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on February 04, 2013, 01:20:49 PM
Sheeting with motorized pasta machine. Many unknowns at this point.
When to flour, how much flour, how many folds before its overworked etc?

Very brief sheeting regimen. Iíll detail this out later.
Currently working with fresh dough and not working on the scrap dough layer.

1.   Flatten and flour approx 6 oz of dough
2.   Sheet on widest setting (Level 1) 2-3 times.  1 or No folds
3.    Reduce setting 2; sheet 1-2 times. No folds
4.   Reduce to setting 3; sheet 1-2 times.
5.   Fold dough in thirds completely overlapping in center and flatten dough making sure there is adhesion. Or else the layers slip when sheeting.
6.   Open rollers to level 1 and repeat steps 2-5 above 2-3 more times.
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on February 04, 2013, 01:55:46 PM


Preheat stone 1 hour. Bake temp is around 500F but ideal is most likely up toward 550F. I can get these temps BUT poor ventilation and hyper sensitive fire alarms are a major deterrent.

At this point Iím not putting the skins in the refrigerator Like M&E.
Note: M&E hasnít ever had the tiny surface blisters.

Also, cornmeal needs to be brushed off of stone if making more than one pizza, as it burns. M&E has an oven broom/brush for this.


Whatís working
Flavor is on the right track.
Ultra thin gumline
Bready top layer.
Ultra thin bottom crust

Need to

Finding ideal dough temp and fermentation times types. Water at 120F with an all-day room temp bulk ferment produces nice strong yeasty beer flavors, maybe a bit too strong. But completely wrong for M&E flavor.
Increase crisping: Had better crisping when shortening wasn't cut in prior to adding water.
Bottom crust color: Considering adding sugar to formula, but feel that higher oven temperatures will solve.
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Old Straw Hat Guy on February 06, 2013, 12:13:12 AM
I worked at Me n Eds back in the late 60's before they had their dough recipe prepackaged to keep anyone from getting their recipe.  We just added water and flour to the prepackaged stuff.  The original recipe was 3-1/2 oz by weight yeast
1/2 cup salt
1/2 cup sugar
1 cup oil
6 1/2 quarts water
25 lbs flour. 

After running the dough through the rollers, we picked up and dropped the dough a couple of inches off the table a few times to relax the dough other wise when cutting the rounds, they would be egg shaped instead of round.  Corn meal was used on the make up boards (peel) for easy sliding into the oven and to keep from sticking in the oven.  We also used corn meal in the oven every night to clean the bricks.  Ovens were made for Me n Eds by Montique with bricks on all sides.  Bubble poppers were used because air would get between each layer when the dough was rolled.  I never worked at Shakeys, but I heard they used a roller with dull spikes to perforate the dough to prevent bubbling. 
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on February 06, 2013, 12:19:48 AM
Well welcome aboard Gary!
Thanks so much for stopping by here on your first post....very interesting info you hare providing. Thank you.
Bob
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on February 06, 2013, 09:28:23 AM
Gary

Great info. Thank you soo very much.  :D

Do you recall whether the yeast was powdered granules or brick form? And do you recall anything about the temperature of the water?
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Old Straw Hat Guy on February 08, 2013, 02:50:02 PM
I don't remember much, must have made it hundreds of times though.  The yeast was dry, I remember the smell of throwing the yeast in warm water. 
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on February 22, 2013, 03:54:28 PM
A few thoughts and updates:

In general, I'm not getting the crust color that I was when I first started ďplayingĒ with the new pizza yeast. The Harvest King flour was freshly milled when I received it in December and am starting to wonder if maybe Iím experiencing the loss due to age/storage issues or if maybe I damaged something in the pizza yeast by storing it in the refrigerator. Iím leaning more towards the loss of freshness in flour.

Any thoughts???
___________________________________________________________________________
Me & Edís

I spoke with the Manager again and he confirmed that the skins are not stored overnight for use the next day.

After each round of pizzas the cornmeal is swept from the oven decks and onto the floor. It is then immediately swept into the flip-down dust pan that is build-in between the oven legs.

Iím finding that over-all the pizzas made earlier in the day are better that those in the evening, but flavor isnít quite as pronounced.

_____________________________________________________________________________________
I added a tsp of granulated cane sugar, changed up the fermentation and upped the oven temp. 500F plus.

Mixed dough ďall-at-onceĒ, finished dough temp 90F, and gave it a long (13 hour) room temp. (95 F) bulk ferment. Overnight refrig. and a 4 hour warm up before rolling.

Correct Fermented Flavor picked up nicely but still needs to be more pronounced. Bottom crust color is more even, but still weak. Crispness is where it was when I first started. Not layering dough to reduce the variables.
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on February 22, 2013, 04:07:16 PM
Flour vs yeast freshness...that new type of yeast packet is an IDY yeast, correct?
I keep my IDY in the freezer(1 lb. bag) and it can go a year and still be golden.....3 month old freshly milled flour should not give you any problems either though I wouldn't think Lydia. But I'm sure you know better than I on this matter.
Thanks for continuing on this...sounds like you are having good experimental results. :chef:

Bob
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on February 22, 2013, 06:34:55 PM
Flour vs yeast freshness...that new type of yeast packet is an IDY yeast, correct?
I keep my IDY in the freezer(1 lb. bag) and it can go a year and still be golden.....3 month old freshly milled flour should not give you any problems either though I wouldn't think
Bob

I've assumed it's IDY or a RapidRise, based on recommend usage, but don't know for sure.

Well here's the deal....when I first opened the Harvest King flour, it was behaving a bit better than the GM B4B flour. Mainly better flavor and browning. So I was going to keep an eye on it to see if the Harvest King label was going to turn out to be different than the GM label, but now it's behaving just like I'd expect from the GM label.

I've lost the "magic" that came "so effortlessly" with my first doughs.  :(

Iím hoping that Iím wrong on the flour, but I donít think so. When Harvest King first came on the retail market, with limited distribution, I had much better results. Then after a couple of label changes and full distribution I was having more inconsistencies. I suspected that the flour had been changed, as is usually the case, but after this little incidentÖ. Well, I think itís simply a freshness issue.

This is one of those things where it would be great to know for sure, but bad news for me if Iím right. GM flour has a high turn-over in my area, but the flour usually sets in a warehouse/distribution center for who knows how long before it hits the store shelves.

So, Iím still hoping that someone might be able to tell me that 3 months truly couldn't have made that much of a difference. And I'm not buying another 50 lbs of Harvest king right now to find out.  :-D



Thanks for continuing on this...sounds like you are having good experimental results. :chef:

Bob

Yah, just because I'm not posting doesn't mean that I'm not working on it.  :D The good thing here is that I have a manager that is willing to talk "pizza" with me and I'm working on something "current" that I can sample and compare on a regular basis.

I did have a bit of a distraction. I found that the La Pina Harina flour I prefer to use for flour tortillas was discontinued in November, and had to source new flour. Thankfully, I found something even better. It's a professional tortilla flour that is just now entering the retail market with "very limited distribution". It a rare "California wheat" grown and milled here especially for flour tortillas.
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on July 23, 2013, 11:40:20 AM
My apologies for letting this topic fizzle out.

I did discover, that my son who was helping me, was indeed grabbing the GM B4B flour bin. It was labeled as both GM B4B and Harvest King Flour. I had asked him about it, and he assured me it "was" the Harvest King flour, but since the GM flour was labeled as both, you can see how that mistake happened.

After that discovery, a head hunter contacted my husband and he accepted the interview. Long story short, and a drive across the states that was a bit reminiscent of a National Lampoons movie, I have just arrived in my new home state of Alabama and am living in a hotel until we get into a rental.

The good news is, that once we finally get into a rental home, I can order fresh flour and yeast and start all over. The other good news is that I will have been exposed to a few more thin crust styles. Specifically Donatos and Pizza Inn.

Donato's was good, but I sure miss the higher amounts of stringy cheese on the California thin crust style. At Pizza Inn, I chose the buffet so I could sample both styles. This was probably not the best choice. Dried out pizza under a heat lamp, isn't the best examples, so we will try them again.

Oh yah, and on the road we chanced by a Peter Piper Pizza. I'm so glad we did. The crust was just how I remembered it. It's like the M&E / Shakeys crust but it has a thicker top layer that was airier (so sorry, no pic). Much thicker than anything we've tried here. The bottom was perfectly crispy like the pics of M&E (with crumbs falling with every bite) but it has darker spots on the bottom indicating higher temps on a stone oven. (Like board member ME gets on the grill with the 2 stone.)

The cheese was disappointing, lower quality, and that was covered with copious amounts an imitation dry powdery Parmesan, that I really wished wasn't there.

At one very limited point in the 80's, Chuck E Cheese had a pizza just like it, and yes, it was good "once". It was when that chain was in it's hay-day in my area of Cali.

Hoping to get my hands back into the pizza dough, soon  :chef:
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 23, 2013, 03:19:12 PM
Congradulations on your husbands new job Lydia! I hope all will be well for you in Alabama....you moved there from Cali...is that right?  Bless your heart, you are braver than I.  :)
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: DNA Dan on July 23, 2013, 08:38:40 PM
That's great news Lydia!! In all the hustle bustle of putting a house together, uprooting yourselves and replanting in a state thousands of miles away, the one thing on your mind is making a better pizza? I got to hand it to you Lydia, you are a hardcore pizza lover.    :-D
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on July 24, 2013, 11:51:02 AM
Thanks guys!

Northern Alabama is a bit like the bay area in California, culturally diverse but with the bonus a southern hospitality, lots of space to breath, gentle rolling hills with wooded areas in between. I love the idea of living in town, while still have a cluster decades old pine trees growing in my back yard. Huntsville is the area where the high-end amenities are. I mean for gawds sakes, the reclining movie theater seats are leather, with a designated 21 over reserved seating with a gourmet restaurant.  ::) BTW, later I'm catching a movie at the $1.50 discount theater.  :-D

That's great news Lydia!! In all the hustle bustle of putting a house together, uprooting yourselves and replanting in a state thousands of miles away, the one thing on your mind is making a better pizza? I got to hand it to you Lydia, you are a hardcore pizza lover.    :-D

LOL...yes it's true. My husband knew to expect our drive to also be a food excursion. The pecking order is Pizza, calMex and old-fashion baking. I've already been scanning the local super markets for new and familiar ingredients. So, the Oscar Meyer pepperoni for the RT clone is abundant around here ;D (happy dance) but cheese will be trial and error. Mexican food is going to be my greatest challenge. I can see that I will be doing a-lot of mail-order. ::) I will die without my tamales 2 x a year. But I'm really looking forward to using southern flour in my baking and curious to see how eastern GM flour differs from the west coast flour.

But..... before I can do all that I have to find a home with a kitchen and pantry I can live with.  :-D


QUESTION??

Have you guys ever been in a Pizza Hut that is sit-down restaurant with table clothes, trifold menus and a waiter? This was a bit of a shock for me, but what really messed with my head is that it's also a DRIVE_THRU ??? And has clearly been a drive-thru since the 60's or 70's  ???
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 24, 2013, 12:00:02 PM

QUESTION??

Have you guys ever been in a Pizza Hut that is sit-down restaurant with table clothes, trifold menus and a waiter? This was a bit of a shock for me, but what really messed with my head is that it's also a DRIVE_THRU ??? And has clearly been a drive-thru since the 60's or 70's  ???
That's a new one on me Lydia, too bad they didn't also have the thin & crisy from the 70's.
Sounds like you had a fun trek 'cross country.  :pizza:
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Battletoads on July 24, 2013, 12:37:25 PM

QUESTION??

Have you guys ever been in a Pizza Hut that is sit-down restaurant with table clothes, trifold menus and a waiter? This was a bit of a shock for me, but what really messed with my head is that it's also a DRIVE_THRU ??? And has clearly been a drive-thru since the 60's or 70's  ???

There is one in my city.  It reminds me of the Pizza Huts I went to as a kid in the 80's.  I am from Indiana and off the top of my head I can think of at least 4 or 5 that are like this still.  Though all the new Pizza Hut locations are in strip malls and have much smaller eat-in areas and do not have any waiter or waitresses.
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Zing on July 30, 2013, 01:17:47 AM
Lydia:

Don't know if you are aware of it or not, but there is a built-from-the-ground-up Shakey's that opened on March 28th, 2008 in Auburn, Alabama. Auburn is a great place to visit, with all kinds of food available in this college town.
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Mad_Ernie on August 01, 2013, 01:59:23 PM
Lydia:

A lot of the Pizza Huts in my area went to delivery/take out only little units in a strip mall, but there are a few sit-downs, although no more waiters or menus at the table.  Some of those places are still found in more rural town areas where Pizza Hut is perhaps one of the few restaurants in the entire area/county.

Glad to hear you made it and are settling.  Looking forward to more of your experiments.  :)

-ME
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Lydia on August 03, 2013, 10:52:19 AM
Yay  ;D   we scored the town-home we wanted. This is the first time that I'm actually thankful the have an electric cook-top. Nearly every home we saw had glass induction which would be totally useless to me.


I've been lucky with pizza ingredients yet still. Thank goodness! I found the Pizza Yeast to exist in a couple of stores, found a few more brands of pepperoni, Poly-O mozz., both whole milk and low moisture. And found a few candidates for shortening.


It will take a bit of time to sort through boxes, but I haven't had my home cooking for over a month now. So, I'm pretty anxious to get cooking again.



Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 03, 2013, 11:30:52 AM
Congratulations!  You'll have your kitchen back soon enough Lydia.  :chef:
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: DNA Dan on August 07, 2013, 01:49:14 PM
Local Pizza Hut by us is sit-down with tablecloths. Doesn't help the pizza much  :-D

We also still have the all-you-can-eat buffet for lunch. Pizza, salad, pasta, cinnamon sticks, etc. Not a bad deal if inferior food is your craving.
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: BradPalm on July 20, 2021, 02:02:26 PM
I'd love to revive this thread as I would love a Me n Eds dough recipe! I personally think their dough is so unique and amazing. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Tim Foolery on July 31, 2021, 03:20:08 AM
I'd love to revive this thread as I would love a Me n Eds dough recipe! I personally think their dough is so unique and amazing. Any help would be greatly appreciated!

I have been lurking this forum for a long time and literally finally signed up because of this thread just now. I'd also like to get closure on this one. I can't find any info online.
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: bobgraff on July 31, 2021, 01:02:24 PM
I have been lurking this forum for a long time and literally finally signed up because of this thread just now. I'd also like to get closure on this one. I can't find any info online.

Welcome Tim!  Have you tried the dough recipe that Lydia suggested here (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22370.msg235682#msg235682)?  "Old Texas Straw Hat Guy" also posted an alternative recipe in a following post.  I took a stab at calculating each, based on 400g of flour and came up with:

Lydia's Recipe
400g flour
243g water (60.7% HR)
13g shortening
6g salt
(no sugar)
3g Yeast

Straw Hat's Recipe
400g flour
208g water (52% HR)
7g oil
3.2g salt
3.2g sugar
3.6g yeast

I couldn't say which is closer (never had M&E's), but I think either recipe would make a decent pizza crust.   Mix up a dough, refrigerate it in a lightly oiled bowl for 2-3 days, then roll it out and bake it on a pizza stone @ 500.  That would be a good starting point, IMO.

Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: Tim Foolery on July 31, 2021, 04:27:29 PM
Welcome Tim!  Have you tried the dough recipe that Lydia suggested here (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22370.msg235682#msg235682)?  "Old Texas Straw Hat Guy" also posted an alternative recipe in a following post. 

Thank you! I did see those! It sounds like it's really more of the method that I'm after at this point, but I guess trying to figure it out is half the fun, isn't it!

This forum has already helped because I would have never guessed that a dough sheet er was used.

Thanks for doing the calculations on the Straw hat recipe. I might actually start there since he claims to have worked at a Me & Ed's.
Title: Re: Ok, Iím going to take on a Me & Edís Clone
Post by: bobgraff on July 31, 2021, 10:02:20 PM
I guess I should should said "Old Straw Hat Guy" ("Texas Straw Hat" is a very bad taco salad that was served at my college cafeteria).

The fun is definitely in the chase.  Keep us posted on your progress!