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Author Topic: Pizza Canotto with Biga  (Read 59904 times)

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #160 on: June 17, 2020, 07:07:42 PM »
Thanks Peter and twangcat!
Alex

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Offline twangcat

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #161 on: June 17, 2020, 10:03:04 PM »
Thanks Peter and twangcat!

My pleasure, Alex.  And for future reference twangcat = Cliff, but either works.

c
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Offline Rolls

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #162 on: June 22, 2020, 04:05:47 PM »
Doouball and other members of the Biga Brigade,

I thought some of you might find this video interesting because it shows a well-known pizzaiolo, Michele D'Amelio, making a pizza in a home oven using biga as a preferment and doing all the mixing by hand.  This pizza is far from an authentic Neapolitan style pizza a canotto, but the video illustrates several useful things, at least to me:
  • How to mix a biga by hand - Notice the proportion of the ingredients, the looseness of the mix, the lack of significant gluten development, and the lack of volume increase in the biga after its fermentation.  The only thing I didn't like was how he poured the remaining dry bits of flour onto the biga.  There should never be any raw flour in a biga.
  • Proper flour selection - The specs for the Caputo Chef are suitable for making a biga.  A weaker flour might not hold up to the same fermentation schedule, resulting in a final dough that is much harder to handle because of protein breakdown.
  • Proper fermentation - Note the time and temperature parameters.  Ideally, bigas should ferment at 18 C and never above 24 C. If you must use the fridge, one approach that is often recommended is to use biga lunga, where the biga is immediately cooled in the fridge for 24 hours, before allowing to ferment for another 24 hours at room temperature.  I always like to ferment at 18 C by keeping the dough in the basement and using a cooler and gel packs if necessary.
  • Proper dough mixing and dough management - Notice how the dough becomes more refined after some vigorous hand mixing, coupled with rest periods and a series of stretch 'n folds.
  • Caputo Yeast - It is indeed an IDY and does not need to be activated in warm water like ADY.  There has been some confusion over this because Caputo itself has referred to this product as "Dry Active Yeast".  Even the pizzaiolo calls it "Active Dry Yeast" at the beginning of the video.




Rolls
« Last Edit: June 23, 2020, 10:36:45 AM by Rolls »
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Offline albacore

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #163 on: June 22, 2020, 04:44:46 PM »
I've been following this ever-growing thread with interest and finally took the biga plunge at the weekend.

  • 25% biga made with Marriages Manitoba flour (14.9% protein), 44% hydration, 0.33% idy
  • 19hrs at 18C
  • main dough mixed in the Famag, 62% hydration, 2.5% salt, 50% Caputo Pizzeria / 50% BF
  • 1 hour at 25C, 19hrs at 5C
  • 250g balls, 7hrs in wooden boxes at RT
  • calculations by Calbal

The dough was quite strong and didn't spread easily - hence the definite canotto shape. Crust was a little solid - I would have liked it airier. but overall, I was quite pleased with how things turned out.

Lance

« Last Edit: June 22, 2020, 04:47:29 PM by albacore »

Offline Pete_da_Bayer

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #164 on: June 23, 2020, 08:02:30 AM »
I've been following this ever-growing thread with interest and finally took the biga plunge at the weekend.

  • 25% biga made with Marriages Manitoba flour (14.9% protein), 44% hydration, 0.33% idy
  • 19hrs at 18C
  • main dough mixed in the Famag, 62% hydration, 2.5% salt, 50% Caputo Pizzeria / 50% BF
  • 1 hour at 25C, 19hrs at 5C
  • 250g balls, 7hrs in wooden boxes at RT
  • calculations by Calbal

The dough was quite strong and didn't spread easily - hence the definite canotto shape. Crust was a little solid - I would have liked it airier. but overall, I was quite pleased with how things turned out.

Lance
Hi Lance,
in order to spread the dough more easily, i´d recommend to use a little bit more water. Manitoba in combination with biga can take a lot. 65-70% shouldn´t be a problem at all. It would also create an airier crust.
Cheers
Peter
Edit: your Pizza looks great by the way :)

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #165 on: June 23, 2020, 12:21:57 PM »
Rolls thanks for sharing Michele's process. I'm sure it'll help anyone mixing biga based doughs by hand!

Lance, it's a really nice looking pizza. I think you'll get even better results if you use a lower protein flour for the biga - no need to go all the way to 15% protein. Something in the 13-14% range is strong enough and won't tighten up your dough as much. If you can buy Italian flour, look for something in the w340-w350 ideally, but w300 (caputo saccorosso) can work too. For the refreshment flour, you can use 100% Caputo Pizzeria or even the lower protein Caputo Classica as well - not much benefit in using a stronger flour for that.  The biga adds so much strength, it helps to compensate by using weaker refreshment flour, and as Pete mentioned, higher hydration to add back the extensibility. Another option is to autolyse the refreshment flour for 2 hours - something I plan to experiment with in the near future. I have to say, I'm a bit envious of the lovely browning you got with your wood-burning oven. My Blackstone gas oven doesn't brown nearly as well. Good job!

Cheers, Alex
Alex

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Offline albacore

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #166 on: June 23, 2020, 04:07:15 PM »
Thanks Peter & Alex for your useful suggestions. I would like to try some weaker flour, even as just a straight dough. I was interested in the Petra 5046, but the trouble is that non-mainstream (ie not Caputo!) flours are rather hard to find in the UK and you also need to buy a full large bag.

As an aside, my two photos in the post ended up in the wrong order. What is the correct posting procedure to get them in the desired order?

Lance

Offline DoouBall

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #167 on: June 23, 2020, 10:06:15 PM »
Thanks Peter & Alex for your useful suggestions. I would like to try some weaker flour, even as just a straight dough. I was interested in the Petra 5046, but the trouble is that non-mainstream (ie not Caputo!) flours are rather hard to find in the UK and you also need to buy a full large bag.

As an aside, my two photos in the post ended up in the wrong order. What is the correct posting procedure to get them in the desired order?

Lance

I totally get it about the Petra flours - they're hard to find and very limited in size options here in the US as well. You can also use Caputo Classica which is sold in grocery stores in 1kg sizes - that is comparable to Petra 5046.

To post photos in the correct order, you have to add them in the order you want them to show up - first attach the first photo, then click "more attachments" and attach the second photo. You might be able to edit the existing post and delete attachments and then re-add. Either way, it's not really a big deal.
Alex

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #168 on: July 05, 2020, 10:12:32 PM »
One of the issues that sometimes can happen with biga pizza doughs is that they are hard to open, at least compared to a direct dough. To counteract this, I made the biga and 2 hours before mixing the dough, I autolysed the remaining water and flour. Both biga and autolyse went in the fridge for 2 hours to help keep mixing temp low. To mix, I put in all the biga and most of the autolyse and mixed until pumpkin shape. Then added the rest of the autolyse, and finally the salt and oil. Took about 3 mins on low and 5 mins on high. Dough reached 70F at end of mixing. It was a little more extensible than normal biga dough. Perhaps even more than 2 hours would be ok next time. Results were excellent. In my Blackstone oven, a 65% hydration dough with 50% biga, cooled for  2 minutes is just about right. Just cooked through, neither dry nor soggy in the least. A 0.5% addition of diastatic malt helped make up for the already burned up sugars from the biga. Pics and recipe attached. Fermentation was 16 hour biga, 24h CF bulk, 4 hour room temp ball (72F). Flour was Petra 5063.

Pizza 1: eggplant puree, buratta, paprika, rosemary
Pizza 2: spinach ricotta cream, cherry tomatoes
Pizza 3: cream, ham, fresh mozzarella, mashed potato,
parmesan (Susta brothers special recipe)
« Last Edit: July 05, 2020, 11:38:01 PM by DoouBall »
Alex

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Offline Pete_da_Bayer

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #169 on: July 10, 2020, 10:19:11 AM »
Real beauties, Alex. Great toppings and a perfect crumb. Fantastic!

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #170 on: July 10, 2020, 12:35:38 PM »
Thanks Pete!
Alex

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Offline LaGaby

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #171 on: July 16, 2020, 06:44:39 AM »
Hello everyone, great work all round with this discussion!
I've learnt so much by just reading this one feed. Just wish that I had found it earlier as I have had so much conflicting information regarding the BIGA subject.

I do have one question that I'm hoping someone can shed some light on.
So recently I've started to use the MasterBiga app to calculate hydration, temperature, and amount of yeast required. However, my usual is process is as follows:
Make Biga, RT for 1hr, place in fridge 23hrs, refresh, bulk ferment for 2hrs, ball and place in fridge for a further 18-22hrs, RT for 2-4hrs, cook.

As you can see I'm hoping to keep a strict 24hr/24hr schedule. However the MasterBiga app doesn't allow me to calculate like this (set temp to 4'c) and therefore I'm super confused.
I am currently living in the south of France where the days can be fairly hot and temperatures can fluctuate so I've resorted to using the fridge to preferment. My issue is that the minimum temperature possible on the MasterBiga app is 12'c and which gives me a time of 21 hours 9 minutes. As I am writing this I understand that there isn't much difference between this time and 24hrs but I've come to realise (mainly reading this forum) that time is key.
I was hoping by placing my Biga at RT for one hour prior to placing in the fridge, I would maybe account for the temp/time difference.

My question is, has anyone here have the same 24hr Biga schedule and maybe has figured out the amount of yeast (fresh) and hydration needed for a 24hr Biga preferment (33%) in the fridge at 4'c?

Offline Pete_da_Bayer

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #172 on: July 16, 2020, 07:08:28 AM »
Hello everyone, great work all round with this discussion!
I've learnt so much by just reading this one feed. Just wish that I had found it earlier as I have had so much conflicting information regarding the BIGA subject.

I do have one question that I'm hoping someone can shed some light on.
So recently I've started to use the MasterBiga app to calculate hydration, temperature, and amount of yeast required. However, my usual is process is as follows:
Make Biga, RT for 1hr, place in fridge 23hrs, refresh, bulk ferment for 2hrs, ball and place in fridge for a further 18-22hrs, RT for 2-4hrs, cook.

As you can see I'm hoping to keep a strict 24hr/24hr schedule. However the MasterBiga app doesn't allow me to calculate like this (set temp to 4'c) and therefore I'm super confused.
I am currently living in the south of France where the days can be fairly hot and temperatures can fluctuate so I've resorted to using the fridge to preferment. My issue is that the minimum temperature possible on the MasterBiga app is 12'c and which gives me a time of 21 hours 9 minutes. As I am writing this I understand that there isn't much difference between this time and 24hrs but I've come to realise (mainly reading this forum) that time is key.
I was hoping by placing my Biga at RT for one hour prior to placing in the fridge, I would maybe account for the temp/time difference.

My question is, has anyone here have the same 24hr Biga schedule and maybe has figured out the amount of yeast (fresh) and hydration needed for a 24hr Biga preferment (33%) in the fridge at 4'c?
Hi Gaby,
i do it just like this, Biga with 20-33% flour of the total amount of flour, 50% hydration, 1% fresh yeast of the biga flour amount, 1 hour @ rt, 23-24 hrs in fridge. Main dough 1-2 hrs @ rt, 18-20 hrs in fridge, 4-6 hrs @ rt, depending on the biga amount.
Cheers
Peter
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 07:11:04 AM by Pete_da_Bayer »

Offline Rolls

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #173 on: July 16, 2020, 09:42:08 AM »
Hi Gaby,

Remember that the best environment to ferment a biga is at "cellar" temperatures, with 18C being optimal according to Giorilli.  Rather than trying to conform to a certain time schedule, what matters most is that you end up with a finished product that displays all of the best properties of a dough made with biga (enhanced flavor, aroma, texture, keeping qualities etc.). In my opinion, it really doesn't matter how you get there.

In any case, it's always necessary to be mindful of 2 things in particular when making biga: temperature and mixing process.  The temperature of the biga after mixing should be around 20C and the "storage" temperature of the biga as it ferments should be around 18C, as already mentioned.  Never over mix a biga, as this will accelerate fermentation and drastically shorten the maturation time of the biga.  By the same token, never under mix a biga for which the tell tale sign is raw, un-hydrated flour in the dough mass (biga farinosa).  Needless to say, it's important to use a relatively strong flour for this process.

To deal with biga in a hot climate, it is often recommended to reduce the yeast amount by half and to add some salt (1% of biga flour weight) in order to restrain the fermentation process which would otherwise be accelerated by the high ambient heat.  The technique known as biga lunga prescribes storing the biga at 4C directly after mixing before a subsequent fermentation period at RT.  Never let the biga exceed 24C.  If you are baking at home and dealing with small amounts of dough, I would use a camping cooler and some frozen gel packs to regulate temperature.  You'd be surprised how easily and effectively this works.  If you use enough gel packs, you can essentially "set it and forget it".  More importantly, by regulating the temperature you can establish a MUCH more predictable fermentation schedule, which seems to be your primary concern.

Ultimately, the proof of the pudding is in the eating.  If your dough handles well and produces a properly leavened and flavourful crust, you'll know you did things right.


Rolls
Parmigiano-Reggiano doesn't come in a green box!   - Chef Jean-Pierre

Offline DoouBall

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Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #174 on: July 16, 2020, 11:52:30 AM »
My question is, has anyone here have the same 24hr Biga schedule and maybe has figured out the amount of yeast (fresh) and hydration needed for a 24hr Biga preferment (33%) in the fridge at 4'c?

LaGaby, there is a simple solution to your problem.

What Rolls and Pete suggest also will work for sure, and Rolls outlines the most correct method according to tradition which may get you the best flavor but requires you to have a controlled temperature of 18C, and it sounds like this wil be difficult for you in the summer in France.

The easiest way is open up MasterBiga, go to Biga Setup, use Automatic Mode and slide the Ambient Temp all the way to the right (highest available). MasterBiga will then suggest you a biga fermentation that is 24 hours in the fridge at 4C. It will provide you all the correct parameters to make that happen. What I have seen is that MasterBiga suggests using the same 1% fresh yeast (0.6% dry), but increasing the hydration to 60% and kneading the biga longer - it should hit 25C before the mixing is done.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2020, 03:52:51 PM by DoouBall »
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Offline twangcat

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #175 on: July 16, 2020, 03:12:45 PM »
Great tip, Alex.  I might give the method you outlined in your reply to LaGaby as well.

I made pizza using a biga again last week and have really fallen into a routine that works for the temps in my house and the fridge.  The dough blew up nicely, was easy to open, and our friends loved the flavor and texture.  Love it!


Cliff
Cliff

Offline DoouBall

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #176 on: July 16, 2020, 03:49:56 PM »
Great tip, Alex.  I might give the method you outlined in your reply to LaGaby as well.

I made pizza using a biga again last week and have really fallen into a routine that works for the temps in my house and the fridge.  The dough blew up nicely, was easy to open, and our friends loved the flavor and texture.  Love it!


Cliff

Glad it's working well for you Cliff!
Alex

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Offline LaGaby

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #177 on: July 16, 2020, 04:56:14 PM »
Thanks for all your great suggestions guys! I've set in motion a Biga that I've stuck in the coolest place I can find inside a 'cool bag' with a thermometer to see what temps it reaches during the night.

Also, great tip Doouball, thanks! 🙌 It's a bit silly of me but I never thought of calculating with the actual room temperature, thinking it was just impossible and the fridge was the only option. I'll be trying this method on my next attempt for sure.


Offline DoouBall

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #178 on: July 16, 2020, 09:44:31 PM »
Thanks for all your great suggestions guys! I've set in motion a Biga that I've stuck in the coolest place I can find inside a 'cool bag' with a thermometer to see what temps it reaches during the night.

Also, great tip Doouball, thanks! 🙌 It's a bit silly of me but I never thought of calculating with the actual room temperature, thinking it was just impossible and the fridge was the only option. I'll be trying this method on my next attempt for sure.

LaGaby, you can definitely calculate with the actual room temperature - the warmer it is, the faster your biga will be ready. The calculations might not be accurate if your temperature swings up and down during the day and is cooler at night. So if it's all over the place, fridge is probably better. If you have a wine fridge that you can set to 18c (65F), that's really ideal.
Alex

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #179 on: July 19, 2020, 05:22:08 PM »
Today I tried a very interesting technique. A mixed leavening method from Piergiorgio Giorilli, translated from Italian.

Pizza a Lievito Misto (Mixed Leavening) (83.33% biga)

PIZZA INGREDIENTS FOR THE BIGA
40 g of sourdough (6.67% of biga flour)
6 g of compressed yeast (1% of biga flour)
270 g of water
600 g of flour W 380 P / L 0.55

LEAVENING TEMPERATURE
12-14 hours at 18 ° C

INGREDIENTS FOR L  MIXTURE

biga
120 g of flour W 260 P / L 0.55
5 g of malt
190 g of water
15 g of salt
25 g of extra virgin olive oil

MIXING TIMES
spiral mixer: 5 minutes in 1st speed, 8 minutes in 2nd speed

FINAL TEMPERATURE OF THE MIXTURE 25 ° C • For the biga: dissolve the mother yeast and the compressed yeast in water, add the flour and mix for about 4 minutes.  Let it sit for the indicated time.  • Start the dough by mixing the biga with the flour, malt and 70% of the water.  Halfway through the dough, add the salt, the oil and the missing water.  • Let the dough sit out at room temperature for about 20 minutes, then cut it to the desired weight and round it.  Leave to rise until use (the volume must at least double).  Alternatively, by decreasing the amount of yeast and increasing the value of the flour (W 320), leave to rise for several hours in the cold.  • Roll out and stuff to taste, then bake at a high temperature.

Results: this is definitely the puffiest canotto I have ever gotten. I used w340 flour for the biga - Caputo Nuvola Super, and w260-280 for the refreshment - Petra 5063. Flavor was very good. However, the very strong flour combined with a high % usage for biga results in a pretty chewy pizza. The more it cools, the chewier it tastes. Also, there was a bit too much malt in this recipe for a high temp bake. I had to turn down the flame and make 3 minute pizzas to prevent burning.

The pizza in the pictures is a brocolli rabe puree with homemade sweet fennel sausage. Topping was excellent and will be repeated. To make the puree, I boiled 1 bunch brocolli rabe for 5 minutes in salted water, drained and then sauteed with 1 Tbsp extra virgin olive oil, 1 clove chopped garlic and a pinch of red pepper flakes for 1 minute. Everything went into the Vitamix along with a bit of milky brine from a package of buratta and some salt. The puree is very delicious.

The short fermentation time in this dough recipe, at only 16-17 hours total did not make the most digestible product, compared to a 48 hour total process. I would say that the texture of the recipe I posted in reply #128 was also better than this one. A fun experiment nonetheless.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 05:34:11 PM by DoouBall »
Alex

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