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Author Topic: Poolish amount  (Read 2994 times)

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Offline mariodolphins1010

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Poolish amount
« on: April 16, 2020, 11:50:49 AM »
Hi,

What would be the poolish ingredient amounts and process that i would need for this exact recipe procedure... single 14 inch recipe

https://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann-nystyle.php

« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 11:54:00 AM by mariodolphins1010 »

Offline HansB

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Re: Poolish amount
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2020, 12:03:38 PM »
There is no one way to do it. I would use 100g flour and 100g h2o with a pinch of yeast, let is sit at RT overnight.
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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Poolish amount
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2020, 12:12:33 PM »
While that dough management procedure isn't designed for use with a poolish, it can be done. Use 1/3 of the flour, 1/2 of the water and all of the yeast in the poolish. Set temperature for the poolish should be 75 to 78F/23.9 to 25.5C, allow the poolish to ferment for 6-hours before incorporating it into the remainder of the dough ingredients.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

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Re: Poolish amount
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2020, 01:24:00 PM »
mariodolphins1010,

There is an entire thread devoted to modifying Tom's recipe to use a preferment (poolish or biga), with over 300,000 page views, at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg86106#msg86106

It took Norma several tries to get the results she was after but she eventually succeeded and reported her results starting at Reply 171 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg89247#msg89247

I believe that Norma used the dough formulation for 16" pizzas at Reply 149, at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg88687#msg88687

Peter

Offline mariodolphins1010

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Re: Poolish amount
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2020, 02:06:24 PM »
mariodolphins1010,

There is an entire thread devoted to modifying Tom's recipe to use a preferment (poolish or biga), with over 300,000 page views, at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg86106#msg86106

It took Norma several tries to get the results she was after but she eventually succeeded and reported her results starting at Reply 171 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg89247#msg89247


I believe that Norma used the dough formulation for 16" pizzas at Reply 149, at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg88687#msg88687

Peter


first i just want to thank all of you for taking the time to respond to my questions

I will take my time and read all this and come back if i have any questions.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 02:08:34 PM by mariodolphins1010 »

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Offline mariodolphins1010

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Re: Poolish amount
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2020, 02:19:33 PM »
im a little confused

the first few pictures from this link is 100% poolish hydration

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg88687#msg88687

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Poolish amount
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2020, 02:28:35 PM »
im a little confused

the first few pictures from this link is 100% poolish hydration

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg88687#msg88687
mariodolphins1010,

Technically, a poolish is made up of equal weights of flour and water, as shown in Reply 149. When working with preferments, I am guided by the teachings of these articles:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm, and 

http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm

Peter


Offline mariodolphins1010

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Re: Poolish amount
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2020, 02:36:43 PM »
mariodolphins1010,

Technically, a poolish is made up of equal weights of flour and water, as shown in Reply 149. When working with preferments, I am guided by the teachings of these articles:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm, and 

http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm

Peter


thank you Peter.....one more question is regarding the temperature of the water.   Should i be using room temperature?

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Poolish amount
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2020, 02:48:41 PM »
Most of the time the set temperature for a poolish is between 75 and 80F, it is suggested that you that the water temperature used in making the poolish be about 2F less than the targeted set temperature. I never recommend "room temperature" as there is no definition as to what it might be. For some it might mean 70F while for other it might mean 60F or as I once found out in Hermosillo, Mexico it meant over 100F/37.7C!  :o
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Offline mariodolphins1010

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Re: Poolish amount
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2020, 03:19:14 PM »
just so i get this right... the formula works out to 25% polish... am i seeing this correctly

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg88687#msg88687

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Offline mariodolphins1010

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Re: Poolish amount
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2020, 03:21:28 PM »
While that dough management procedure isn't designed for use with a poolish, it can be done. Use 1/3 of the flour, 1/2 of the water and all of the yeast in the poolish. Set temperature for the poolish should be 75 to 78F/23.9 to 25.5C, allow the poolish to ferment for 6-hours before incorporating it into the remainder of the dough ingredients.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Hi, Doctor, i let it ferment at room temperature?  my ambient temperature is 72 degrees....

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Poolish amount
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2020, 03:39:07 PM »
Perfect! :)
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

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Re: Poolish amount
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2020, 03:56:24 PM »

thank you Peter.....one more question is regarding the temperature of the water.   Should i be using room temperature?
mariodolphins1010,

Tom already addressed the water temperature matter. But if you go back to the Didier Rosada article I cited at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm, and look under the Poolish section, you will see Chart A with guidelines to use when making the poolish. Below that chart, you will see the following:

These guidelines are applicable for a bakery temperature of 80 to 85F and a water temperature of 60F.  If the temperature of the bakery is warmer, the yeast quantity or the water temperature should be decreased.  The goal for the baker is to obtain a poolish that is perfectly matured at the time of the final dough mixing.  The full maturation of the poolish can be recognized when it has domed slightly on the top and just begun to recede, creating on the surface some areas a little more concave.  A poolish that has not matured adequately does not provide the benefit of lower acidity; one that has over-matured can create other types of acidity which might affect the flavor of the final product.

As noted in the above excerpt, Chart A is for a bakery setting where the room temperature is somewhat more than most people might experience in a home setting. So, some tweaking of yeast and water values may be necessary.

Unfortunately, the article cited above does not show how the poolish should behave. That is because the original article is no longer available, and the article I cited is from the Wayback Machine, which is an archive facility, and the photos did not reproduce there. However, the photos shown below, which I took from posts here on the forum, should give you a pretty good idea as to what a poolish might look like.

Peter

 

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Re: Poolish amount
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2020, 04:17:57 PM »
just so i get this right... the formula works out to 25% polish... am i seeing this correctly

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg88687#msg88687
mariodolphins1010,

The amount of poolish can be stated in three different ways--as a percent of the total formula flour, as a percent the total formula water, or as a percent of the total dough weight. The reason for the three options is because a given recipe can call for a specific one of the three options. Most members here on the forum tend to specify the amount of poolish, and other forms of preferments as well, as a percentage of the total formula flour. But, technically, in the case of a poolish, the first Rosada article I cited says the following:

Traditionally, the size of the poolish was calculated based on the water involved in the total formula. Bakers could use from 20 to 80% of the water to prepare the poolish. The poolish was then elaborated using the same amount of flour as water (hydration of 100%, providing a liquid consistency)

So, as I noted in Reply 149 the amount of poolish is 80% of the Total Formula Water. But if I were to state the percent with respect to the Total Formula Flour or the Total Dough Weight, the percents would be around 49% and around 30%, respectively. In your case, you may not need as much poolish as Norma used. In our case, we used the maximum recommended amount just to see what results she would get. That worked well enough and we therefore saw no need to go back and test other values. In my own case, I have tended to use around 15%-20% by weight of flour.

Peter

Offline mariodolphins1010

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Re: Poolish amount
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2020, 09:03:42 AM »
once again. thank you guys for all your help..this is what it looks like after 18 hours


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Offline amolapizza

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Re: Poolish amount
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2020, 09:14:05 AM »
That looks good to me!
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Offline mariodolphins1010

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Re: Poolish amount
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2020, 10:14:14 AM »
quick update....i forgot to add the oil in the mix!

Offline HansB

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Re: Poolish amount
« Reply #17 on: April 17, 2020, 10:45:54 AM »
quick update....i forgot to add the oil in the mix!

Not the end of the world. You should still get a good crust.
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Offline quietdesperation

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Re: Poolish amount
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2020, 09:01:11 PM »
mariodolphins1010,

The amount of poolish can be stated in three different ways--as a percent of the total formula flour, as a percent the total formula water, or as a percent of the total dough weight. The reason for the three options is because a given recipe can call for a specific one of the three options. Most members here on the forum tend to specify the amount of poolish, and other forms of preferments as well, as a percentage of the total formula flour. But, technically, in the case of a poolish, the first Rosada article I cited says the following:

Traditionally, the size of the poolish was calculated based on the water involved in the total formula. Bakers could use from 20 to 80% of the water to prepare the poolish. The poolish was then elaborated using the same amount of flour as water (hydration of 100%, providing a liquid consistency)

So, as I noted in Reply 149 the amount of poolish is 80% of the Total Formula Water. But if I were to state the percent with respect to the Total Formula Flour or the Total Dough Weight, the percents would be around 49% and around 30%, respectively. In your case, you may not need as much poolish as Norma used. In our case, we used the maximum recommended amount just to see what results she would get. That worked well enough and we therefore saw no need to go back and test other values. In my own case, I have tended to use around 15%-20% by weight of flour.

Peter

 I guess each method results in different poolish amounts. What drives bakers to choose one over the other?

% of dough example:
200 grams flour
100 grams of water
20% poolish of total dough weight is 60 grams
poolish is 30 grams of flour, 30 of water, add  170 grams of flour and 70 grams of water.

% of total flour example:
200 grams flour
100 grams of water
20% poolish of total flour is 40 grams
poolish is 20 grams of flour, 20 of water, add  180 grams of flour and 80 grams of water

% of total water example:
200 grams flour
100 grams of water
20% poolish of total water is 20 grams
poolish is 10 grams of flour, 10 of water, add  190 grams of flour and 90 grams of water
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 09:34:47 PM by quietdesperation »
jeff

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Re: Poolish amount
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2020, 06:36:55 PM »
QD,

You raise a good question about what drives bakers to choose one method of dealing with poolish over others. And, honestly, I don't have a good answer. All I can say is that over the years I have seen dough recipes that use all of the methods. But, if I were to generalize, I would say that most bakers tend to base the amount of poolish on the weight of total formula flour. No doubt there are some bakers who tend to follow the classic way of determining preferment amounts along the lines of the Didier Rosada article that I mentioned earlier in this thread. But, here on the forum, I see all kinds of preferments with all kinds of compositions. In many cases, they are made up and then tested by members to see if they can get the results they are after.

When Mike (Boy Hits Car) and I were trying to come up with the preferment dough calculating tool at https://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment-calculator.html we grappled with these kinds of issues. We wanted to cover all kinds of preferments and also all kinds of compositions. That way, members could create new preferments if they so wanted, or they could convert recipes that do not call for the use of preferments to use preferments, or they could modify preferments used in existing recipes. All of this led to the preferment part of the tool where we asked these three questions: 1) How would you like your preferment expressed (that is, by % of Total Flour, or by % of Total Water or by % of Total Dough Weight)? 2) What is your desired preferment amount (by %)? 2) What is the preferment's percentage of water (that is, the weight of water divided by the total weight of the preferment)? Of course, answering these questions does not guarantee results. It helps to start with data that has a record of success. That is true of all of the dough calculating tools.

As a footnote I should mention that the preferment dough calculating tool was limited to naturally leavened preferments, although one can add commercial yeast to the final dough. Mike and I thought about a tool that could cover commercially leavened preferments but we found that there were so many versions and variations in the literature and in the real world that it would have been a nightmare to try to do the required programming. Because I was involved in the design of the tool, I sometimes can "cheat" by finding ways of using the tool with some preferments that have commercial yeast but the math gets messy and time consuming.

Peter


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