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  • #1521 by Pete-zza on 16 Dec 2020
  • brijaco,

    Your pizza looks good and I am glad you and everyone else liked it.

    As for your oven problem, you might take a look at this thread:

    https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6585.msg56478#msg56478

    There are also a lot of other baking tips in Reply 45 at:

    https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2223.msg20965#msg20965

    Peter
  • #1522 by jerstahl on 25 Dec 2020
  • Merry Christmas everyone.  Pretty cold here in Memphis today so we tried to imagine being in Hawaii.  Our Friday night pizza was a Hawaiian with ham and pineapple.  ;D

    Peter we loved the recipe and used the percentages from reply #585 for a 48 hour fermentation.

    The cornicione got a little dark but I was trying to get more color on the cheese.  I think the moisture in the ham and pineapple was fighting back.

    Merry Christmas!
    Jeremy
  • #1523 by Pete-zza on 25 Dec 2020
  • jerstahl,

    I am glad you liked the pizza that you made in accordance with Reply 585 at:

    https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg273667#msg273667

    The nice thing about the Papa John's clone doughs is that they are easy to make, although the original PJ clone dough formulation that takes several days of cold fermentation can be a challenge when a standard home refrigerator is used.

    Peter

  • #1524 by isolatedpizza on 10 Mar 2021
  • Morten,

    I suggest that you try the following PJ clone dough formulation instead:

    Flour* (100%):
    Water (56%):
    IDY (0.28%):
    Salt (1.9%):
    Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5.55%):
    Sugar (5.89%):
    Total (169.62%):
    339.29 g  |  11.97 oz | 0.75 lbs
    190 g  |  6.7 oz | 0.42 lbs
    0.95 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.32 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
    6.45 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.16 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
    18.83 g | 0.66 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.15 tsp | 1.38 tbsp
    19.98 g | 0.7 oz | 0.04 lbs | 5.01 tsp | 1.67 tbsp
    575.51 g | 20.3 oz | 1.27 lbs | TF = N/A
    *The flour should have a protein content between 13.4-13.6%
    Note: Dough (20 ounces) is for a 14" pizza with a corresponding thickness factor of 0.12992; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

    The amount of yeast specified is for a two-day cold fermentation. For a 3-day cold fermentation, try 0.25% IDY.

    Please let us know how things turn out.

    Peter

    Heya! I'm fairly new to pizza making so I have a couple of questions on the process of creating the dough. How do you normally prepare a dough like this? How do you combine the ingredients, do you dissolve everything except the flour in the water mixture? How much kneading & resting and so forth.
  • #1525 by Pete-zza on 10 Mar 2021
  • Heya! I'm fairly new to pizza making so I have a couple of questions on the process of creating the dough. How do you normally prepare a dough like this? How do you combine the ingredients, do you dissolve everything except the flour in the water mixture? How much kneading & resting and so forth.
    isolated,

    The first few pages of this thread go into great detail as to how I made the PJ clones but you might take a look at Reply 10 at:

    https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg59217#msg59217

    Peter
  • #1526 by _Chad on 25 Jun 2021
  • Peter, thank you for all the work you have put into this topic, reading through it has been fascinating. I decided to give the recipe at 585 a go, but had some mixed results.

    https://imgur.com/a/G27mgu1

    The dough tasted great but the crumb was a bit denser than I was hoping. I tried to follow your process as much as possible, but I had to hand knead it as I donít have a stand mixer and I used ADY instead of IDY. I converted to the correct amount and warmed it up in water before adding it to the flour. I checked the yeast and it is fine, the dough just didnít rise as much during the cold ferment or bake as I expected. Do you have any recommendations based on your experience for me, or should I just try it again and go buy some actual IDY to remove that variable?

    Thanks,
    Chad
  • #1527 by Pete-zza on 25 Jun 2021
  • Peter, thank you for all the work you have put into this topic, reading through it has been fascinating. I decided to give the recipe at 585 a go, but had some mixed results.

    https://imgur.com/a/G27mgu1

    The dough tasted great but the crumb was a bit denser than I was hoping. I tried to follow your process as much as possible, but I had to hand knead it as I donít have a stand mixer and I used ADY instead of IDY. I converted to the correct amount and warmed it up in water before adding it to the flour. I checked the yeast and it is fine, the dough just didnít rise as much during the cold ferment or bake as I expected. Do you have any recommendations based on your experience for me, or should I just try it again and go buy some actual IDY to remove that variable?

    Thanks,
    Chad
    Chad,

    I'm glad you liked the pizza that you made using the dough formulation at Reply 585 at:

    https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg273667#msg273667

    Based on what you reported, I tend to think that the results you achieved were perhaps related to the hand kneading part of the process. But I do have a few questions, as follows:

    1. Can you tell me what type and brand of flour you used?

    2. Can you tell me how much ADY you used?

    3. Did you weigh all of the ingredients?

    4. Did you measure the finished dough temperature?

    5. Can you tell me how you kneaded the dough and for how long?

    6. How long did you cold ferment the dough?

    7. Did you measure the finished dough temperature?

    8. Can you tell us the type of oven you used to bake the pizza and the protocol you used (e.g., type of oven, use and positioning of screen, bake time and temperature)?

    Most of the questions are to rule out some potential causes. But since you are hand kneading, you may want to read what the late Tom Lehmann pointed out about hand kneading in his post at Reply 1 at:

    https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=15155.msg149707;topicseen#msg149707

    Peter

  • #1528 by norma427 on 26 Jun 2021
  • How Papa John's Pizza Is Really Made



    Norma
  • #1529 by Pete-zza on 27 Jun 2021
  • How Papa John's Pizza Is Really Made



    Norma
    Norma,

    Thank you for posting the video. Even though that video was posted just recently, I believe that it is an old video. I say this because it features John Schnatter, who stepped down as chairman of PJ around 2019. Also, the video discusses the PJ pan pizza. That pizza was created in 2016. That pizza was not a big success and was later discontinued. When I checked the current PJ menu to be sure, I did not see that pizza. It also struck me that the John Schnatter in the video looks quite a bit younger than he does now. I have attached a recent (March of this year) photo of John Schnatter. I will let you be the judge of whether there has been a change  ;D.

    The above issues aside, the video does not tell us much of anything new. For example, I discussed the edge lock and sauce lock mentioned in the video, plus a few other "locks", in a post at Reply 747 at:

    https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg325482#msg325482

    Reply 747 also has a video that shows how dough docking, which is also mentioned in the video, is done.

    The video also mentions that Leprino Foods supplies cheeses to three different major chains, including PJ. You may even remember giving me a link to a Forbes magazine article on that matter, at:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/chloesorvino/2017/05/23/james-leprino-exclusive-mozzarella-billionaire-cheese-pizza-hut-dominos-papa-johns/?sh=6bfe329f4958

    You will notice in the video a scene where it can be seen that the cheese used on the pizza shown (at about 2:13) is diced. At the time that I made my PJ clones, PJ was using a Leprino cheese. I posted about this at Reply 9 at:

    https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58413;topicseen#msg58413

    The video also notes that the ingredients for PJ pizzas can be seen at the PJ website. I have in the past given a link to the PJ website where that information is provided but it is general in nature, even though it is still useful and helpful in the context of trying to reverse engineer and clone PJ pizzas. See, for example, such a page at:

    https://www.papajohns.com/company/papa-johns-ingredients.html

    As you well know from our past joint experiments with clones, the devil is in the detail.

    Peter

  • #1530 by norma427 on 27 Jun 2021
  • Norma,

    Thank you for posting the video. Even though that video was posted just recently, I believe that it is an old video. I say this because it features John Schnatter, who stepped down as chairman of PJ around 2019. Also, the video discusses the PJ pan pizza. That pizza was created in 2016. That pizza was not a big success and was later discontinued. When I checked the current PJ menu to be sure, I did not see that pizza. It also struck me that the John Schnatter in the video looks quite a bit younger than he does now. I have attached a recent (March of this year) photo of John Schnatter. I will let you be the judge of whether there has been a change  ;D.

    The above issues aside, the video does not tell us much of anything new. For example, I discussed the edge lock and sauce lock mentioned in the video, plus a few other "locks", in a post at Reply 747 at:

    https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg325482#msg325482

    Reply 747 also has a video that shows how dough docking, which is also mentioned in the video, is done.

    The video also mentions that Leprino Foods supplies cheeses to three different major chains, including PJ. You may even remember giving me a link to a Forbes magazine article on that matter, at:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/chloesorvino/2017/05/23/james-leprino-exclusive-mozzarella-billionaire-cheese-pizza-hut-dominos-papa-johns/?sh=6bfe329f4958

    You will notice in the video a scene where it can be seen that the cheese used on the pizza shown (at about 2:13) is diced. At the time that I made my PJ clones, PJ was using a Leprino cheese. I posted about this at Reply 9 at:

    https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58413;topicseen#msg58413

    The video also notes that the ingredients for PJ pizzas can be seen at the PJ website. I have in the past given a link to the PJ website where that information is provided but it is general in nature, even though it is still useful and helpful in the context of trying to reverse engineer and clone PJ pizzas. See, for example, such a page at:

    https://www.papajohns.com/company/papa-johns-ingredients.html

    As you well know from our past joint experiments with clones, the devil is in the detail.

    Peter

    Peter,

    Thanks for all the details. Yes, the devil is in details.  Knew you sure would know what is what.  Even Frank Giaquinto said almost all major chains use Leprino Foods for their cheeses.  Frank has worked for them all, and takes note of everything that goes on. Frank is working for a chain right now too.

    Yes, there has been a change in John Schnatter.

    Norma
  • #1531 by Pete-zza on 30 Jun 2021
  • One of our members, Modegolf, was nice enough to bring the video shown below to my attention. The video is entitled Slapping Dough the Papa John's Way! and instructs how to open up PJ dough balls to form skins.



    Peter
  • #1532 by _Chad on 06 Jul 2021
  • Chad,

    I'm glad you liked the pizza that you made using the dough formulation at Reply 585 at:

    https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg273667#msg273667

    Based on what you reported, I tend to think that the results you achieved were perhaps related to the hand kneading part of the process. But I do have a few questions, as follows:

    1. Can you tell me what type and brand of flour you used?

    2. Can you tell me how much ADY you used?

    3. Did you weigh all of the ingredients?

    4. Did you measure the finished dough temperature?

    5. Can you tell me how you kneaded the dough and for how long?

    6. How long did you cold ferment the dough?

    7. Did you measure the finished dough temperature?

    8. Can you tell us the type of oven you used to bake the pizza and the protocol you used (e.g., type of oven, use and positioning of screen, bake time and temperature)?

    Most of the questions are to rule out some potential causes. But since you are hand kneading, you may want to read what the late Tom Lehmann pointed out about hand kneading in his post at Reply 1 at:

    https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=15155.msg149707;topicseen#msg149707

    Peter

    Thank you for the follow-up, and apologies for my late response.

    The flour I used was King Arthur Unbleached Bread Flour. I used a conversion calculator to come up with an ADY amount of 2.57 grams (I doubled your recipe, so that's converting from 1.9 grams IDY). Everything was also weighed, although I did not measure the finished dough temperature either before or after fermentation. As for kneading, I mixed the yeast in warm water (as mentioned by Tom Lehmann in the link) before putting it into the dry mix and head kneaded (somewhat of a fold over method) for probably 2 minutes at most. I didn't want to overknead it since it was going to be cold fermented, which was done for 2 days as specified in #585. I only tried to knead it until the dough was smooth and all the flour was incorporated. It definitely wouldn't have passed the window-pane test at the point I stopped. I may be wrong in my thinking, but I was under the impression that kneading too much can be bad for cold fermented dough.

    I baked it on a 14" pizza screen at 450F on a rack towards the top of my oven. I started it lower but the bottom was browning too fast and even after moving it, the top was barely done enough by the time the bottom was getting too dark. This was the first time I have used a true pizza screen, so I am not sure how to best handle a more even bake in my crappy oven. Too much of the heat seems concentrated to the bottom of the pizza.

    One thing I have found since posting on the thread, is I had a suspicion about my food scale. I decided to use some salt to weigh out and check the accuracy, and it seems to be pretty poor especially at smaller measurements (such as a few grams like my yeast measurement). I may have gotten less yeast in the dough than I meant to if that is the case, and means I probably should get a better one.

    Thanks,
    Chad
  • #1533 by Pete-zza on 07 Jul 2021
  • Chad,

    Having a decent scale is a big plus in making doughs so that might be something to shoot for if you plan to continue to make pizzas.

    Your oven may also been a factor based on your description of the bottom crust and the top of the pizza. In my case, with my electric oven, I am able to place a pizza on the screen on the lowest oven rack, and by using a temperature of around 500 degrees F, I am able to get an increased oven spring and, hence, a more open and airy crumb. I also make sure that I don't touch the rim of the skin when I am opening up a dough ball so that the rim, when baked, has a more open structure. Having the right amount of yeast and the right amount of cold fermentation also help produce a more open and airy crumb. I also measure the temperature of a dough ball while it is resting in preparation for making a pizza. A temperature of about 60-70 degrees F works well for me. I also want the dough ball at that stage to be light and soft to the touch, which should lead to a more open and airy crumb also.

    In case a given pizza starts to brown too quickly on the bottom in my oven, my practice is to lift the pizza off of the lower rack and raise it to the topmost oven rack to let it finish baking, but being careful that the top of the pizza doesn't get too dark or messy.

    In your case, your use of the KABF flour and ADY are fine but you might want to give IDY a try. And, at some point, you might even try using a bit more yeast to help insure a more open and airy dough at the time you plan to make the pizza. Alternatively, you can use the same amount of yeast but let the dough ferment longer. With practice and experience, you should be able to learn when a given dough is ready to be used to make a pizza.

    Peter
  • #1534 by Pete-zza on 28 Jul 2021
  • Recently, one of our members, McMuffins, too a stab at a version of the PJ clone dough formulation set forth at Reply 585 at:

    https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg273667.html#msg273667

    As can be seen in the post cited below, and also the included photos, McMuffins was very happy with the results:

    Reply 12 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=70671.msg678636#msg678636

    Peter
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