When does a preferment morph into a dough?

[texmex]

I am interested in what y'all think about my latest SD dough that follows no rule that I can find...

On May 3 at about 8 am, I removed my culture from the fridge, discarded some then fed my quart jar in the  normal manner, with an eye for a lot of SD to use in my recipe. I used 100 g each of water and flour. Let it feed at room temp for 8 hours, but did not bake anything with it after those 8 hours, but stuck the jar in the fridge. Next day I took that jar and dumped out 195 grams into a bowl,  fed that with 600 g each of water and flour....let the yeasties feed for 3 hours then stuck the bowl into the fridge.  I also fed my jar residue with 100g each of flour and water, but stuck that straight into the fridge  Effectively, I now had 1395 grams of ready starter in my bowl, and scant 200 g of not ready sd in my jar. 

On May 7th at approximately 3:30 pm I looked at the jar of SD and see very little activity. The bowl of SD is decidedly pungent and thick with bubbles, and it's  floating, so I know it will make a good dough. 

Now I add 25 grams salt and 400 grams flour, to the 1395 grams of ready SD literally break the flour into the gluten in the KA mixer. I had a dough ball for about 2 minutes which immediately morphed into a stringy ball with a big hole in it where the dough hook couldn't pull the dough together again.  Maybe 2 minutes of this, and I decided to plop the mess into the original bowl and let it rest in the fridge for about 6 hours.  I decided to scale up the dough that night for a bake 12 hours later.  I was thrown off by the texture of the dough, which had a distinct similarity to canned biscuit dough.   It seemed sort of fractured as I cut pieces of dough off the bulk, but had lots of tiny bubbles. The dough balls remained in the fridge until 3 hours prior to baking.

May 8th, baked with beautiful results, light, springy, chewy and flavorful....I still can't see much reason to discard SD, so long as it's not contaminated or dead.

I say my 1395 grams of sourdough only became dough once I added salt and extra flour, but many sd cultures are thicker versions.  Should I just treat my sd as a dough, always feeding it 65% water to 100% flour, then adding 2% salt when I want to bake?  Lol...hmmm...incorporating salt at that point won't be easy.   I can see myself pounding grains into the dough with a mallet.

[TXCraig1]

Any time I've tried to add more than maybe 40% SD, it has completely destroyed my dough - somewhat similar to what you have described. I'm surprised to read that yours baked up into a good crust.

As for your question, I'm not sure I understand what you are asking?

[texmex]

Any time I've tried to add more than maybe 40% SD, it has completely destroyed my dough - somewhat similar to what you have described. I'm surprised to read that yours baked up into a good crust.

As for your question, I'm not sure I understand what you are asking?

I was surprised as well, but I  remembered a very old dough that I baked into a tasty focaccia and gave it the benefit of he doubt. I'm  glad I keep pushing forward on this mega SD quest.
You know me and math...but isn't my dough formula effectively using 63% of 100% hydration SD with 2% salt and a total value of close to 64% hydration? 
I'm not sure what I am asking either...but it seems odd that small amounts of SD are touted often, when it seems counterintuitive. 

[TXCraig1]

it seems odd that small amounts of SD are touted often, when it seems counterintuitive.

I think it depends on what you are trying to achieve. Things that affect the stasis of the yeast and LAB in the culture such as hydration and temperature affect the byproducts of fermentation which affect the flavor and texture. There are lots of other considerations as well. For example, I've been making pizza with the HEB AP flour, and I've found it's not strong enough to stand up well to 48 hour RT fermentation but it does great at 24 hours. For that I've had to up my culture from 1.9% to 7.5% (which incidentally is what the table predicts).  Una Pizza Napoletana is on the other end of the spectrum. I don't know how close I came in my attempt to reverse engineer it, but regardless, he uses a lot of preferment - my guess is it's about 25% of the total dough weight. https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10237.0

[TXCraig1]

Any time I've tried to add more than maybe 40% SD, it has completely destroyed my dough - somewhat similar to what you have described. I'm surprised to read that yours baked up into a good crust.

To clarify, in this comment I mean 40% of the total dough - not 40% SD as a baker's percent.

[texmex]

To clarify, in this comment I mean 40% of the total dough - not 40% SD as a baker's percent.

That's what I understand it to be...you also don't use 100% hydration for your sd, right?

Say I'm building my culture by feeding just a  tiny amount of starter in steps.  10 grams of starter that needs to be fed. (Heck, even 1 gram would work) I feed it 65 grams of water and 100 grams of flour.  The SD yeasties feed off that, bulk up and I don't discard any, just feed again...maybe 3 times the previous amt. 195 grams of water and 300 grams of flour, let that feed some hours, then add double that 390 grams water and 600 grams flour.  All I'm  doing is making more SD culture in a more dough-like manner.  The only difference between this and a baking dough we would find more palatable, tanginess or lack thereof aside, would be salt.  Salt is not what makes a dough....but doesn't this show that percentages of sourdough CAN go all the way to the 100% SD as a percentage of the total dough weight?  I understand that time and temp is the biggest factor, but a preferment ain't nothing more than a dough, or a batter....until it is fully spent. 

My days long cold ferment did not produce much more of a distinct tangy flavor than long fermented doughs that start with a tiny amount of sd culture fermented at room temp,  or cold fermented.  I find it difficult to quantify that depth of flavor, because I have had some pretty sour doughs, and this one was pleasant.  I keep trying to figure out simpler methods, or different methods without destroying the fiber of the dough.

Feeding the culture all at room temp would surely not give the same results as using cold fermentation,  but I'm inclined to test this at room temp, then balling up and baking the dough as soon as it becomes slack enough to open. 

When does sourdough earn the right to just be called dough?

As you can tell, kneading does not factor in on this query.  I am inclined to believe that it is unnecessary...but at that hydration....hmmmm.  okay. Some kneading just to incorporate. 
Guess the only way to find out is to do it.

[TXCraig1]

I don't measure when I feed my starter, but I'd guess it's pretty close to 100%HR.

As for when does SD culture become a dough? Maybe it's a bit of a distinction without much of a difference. If it's not a dough, then it's probably a batter, and I think the difference between the two largely comes down to viscosity. As far as I know, exactly where a batter becomes a dough is arbitrary.

[texmex]

Arbitrary.  That's my middle name.

[texmex]

I have the SD experiment bug, and I got it bad. I don't know whether I should take this dough to full RT rise now, or stick it in the fridge and see what happens. well, I guess I do know.


I had tested my flakes to ready SD this week (29 hours from flakes to make the  dough now), and when it had reached maturity (there's a pic of it below), I stuck it in the fridge with my other 2 jars. Today I pulled 250 g total out of the jars, then replenished what was left with 100% feedings and redeposited into 2 clean jars.


 The starter shown had dropped a tad to double above the line. My regular 2 jars were ready to go after about a week in there feeding. So I just needed to make something, and satisfy my yeasty wanderlust.


I took 125 g of ready starter and mixed with 3 g salt 40 g water 100 g AP flour and a smidgen of bacon fat.  It felt right...Did 3 SF over 45 minutes and balled her up.  I lifted the dough to take a pic showing what stretched SD pizza dough historically looks like for me (thin spots) so I try not to lift them too much in the final stretch, and only do a benched finger stretch and turn style.


I can watch for bubbles, at RT, then start my oven and bake, or I can stick in fridge and see how it looks mañana.  I have another 2 old dough laminated sourdoughs in the fridge, probably better to try a bake in the Blackstone tomorrow.  Yeah, that's it.


Can anyone tell me what % SD this dough is? It feels real nice and silky right now. * never mind *
I plugged it in here https://fgbc.dk/1jsr and it says 63% hydration, 125% SD preferment.  voodoo! 
This should be interesting. 

[texmex]

I made the pie, and it was not a disaster. https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=42834.msg672501#msg672501

[foreplease]

I made the pie, and it was not a disaster. https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=42834.msg672501#msg672501

No! Far from a disaster. FWIW, I was figuring your total hydration as I read above, before I reached the point where you mentioned 63%. I got 63% too, plus a little bacon fat and salt. Seems as if it would have been a good (trouble free) dough to work with, performed well, and good tasting, which seems to be the case in your post that you linked above. Fun when stuff just works out sometimes using hard earned intuition. Nicely done!

[texmex]

Tony, thanks for the observation. Today I should have a couple more massive sd amount doughs to bake up.  At least 1 will have only added flour and salt to the existing bowl of 250 g starter.
My 2 small jars of starter are ready to go, so I might as well form a ball out of that too, although the formulation will differ due to less available quantity in the jars.


Using preferment baker percentages relevant to the amount of flour in the doughs :
The 1st attempt, logged in at the previous link  (pics at message 143) had 125% starter. (63.1% hydration)
The next attempt had 54.5% starter. (64.3% total dough hydration)
Today's formula is 416.7% starter (67% total dough hydration) plus whatever I come up with for the 2nd dough.


It's exciting, and nerve wracking at the same time. Because we want to be able to eat the pies as well as enjoy the gamble in playing starter roulette.

[foreplease]

Now you are baffling me! Starter Roulette is a good and funny term.

[texmex]

Now you are baffling me! Starter Roulette is a good and funny term.

Let's place bets. 
Damn, hubby had leftover pizza hidden in the fridge and took it for lunch today. Maybe that's a good thing, in case these pies don't fly tonight. Well, maybe they will fly...into the trash, but I am always hopeful beyond any residual reticence to proceed. There's always that worm of doubt, yet I shall persevere! 
Sorry, that picture of Arne got me a little riled up for some reason.  Hahaha.

[texmex]

I'm putting this here, because I can't think of a better title...


I have very old ADY, and semi-old SD Moby flakes in my fridge and wanna see how viable they are. Is it a fair fight? No.  I know the SD will awaken, but the ADY was expired when I bought it. LOL.  Nope, not fair...but fun to watch. I fed them the same, and stuck them in my oven with the light on.


1/2 teaspoon SD/ADY,  1/2 tsp sugar,   1 TBSP flour, 1/4 cup water @108°


30 mins.. in warmth...It's time for some cinnamon rolls?