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Author Topic: KA 00 pizza flour  (Read 1987 times)

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2021, 05:38:06 PM »
And another thing...

"Chewy" is not a word that I would want associated with my Neapolitan pizza.
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Online RHawthorne

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2021, 09:10:32 PM »
If it's any help this is from their commercial page.

Type 00 Flour
11% Protein | .54% Ash

This silky smooth flour is made from select US wheats. It provides the strength and extensibility required for pizza dough that yields authentic Neapolitan pizza crusts. Optimized for baking at high temperatures to produce the perfect blend of crispness and chew, with the puffy, leopard-spotted cornicione that enthusiasts expect.

50lb. #205105
Okay. I looked at their website and couldn't find that info. That's at least somewhat helpful.
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Online RHawthorne

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2021, 09:45:44 PM »
Randy,

You are right about KA not revealing the actual amount of protein in their 00 clone flour. However, if you look at the following KA pdf document, you will see that the stated amount of protein for their 00 clone flour is 2 grams per 30 gram serving size. But because of rounding (to the nearest half gram for amounts under 5 grams and to the nearest whole gram for amounts greater than 5 grams, under FDA rules), we can't get to the actual amount of protein from the Nutrition Facts. For example, if the protein amount is actually 2.2 grams and the serving size is actually 29.6 grams, that would make the percent protein equal to 2.2/29.6 = 7.46%.

https://shop.kingarthurbaking.com/content/packaging/100190.pdf

Many years ago, back in the 2004-2006 timeframe, I tried the KA 00 flour and thought that it was the worst flour I had ever used. I even went so far as to tell KA that it was one of my worst flours. The only response I got was that it was a low protein flour. As noted in the following post, I thought that the protein content was around 7.5%, which would be about the same as I calculated above:

Reply 3 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13654.msg136630;topicseen#msg136630

At other times, the protein number I saw was around 8.5%.

In the above-referenced time frame, there were very few authentic Italian 00 flours used in the U.S. and I viewed KA's 00 flour as simply a poor imitation of the real 00 flours. And when members would ask me about the KA 00 flour, I would tell them that it was not a good flour, and why I thought so (see, for example, Reply 5 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2172.msg20653.html#msg20653), and not to use it. If it so happened that they had that flour on hand, I advised them to blend it with a flour such as a high gluten flour until they used up all of the KA 00 flour. One member actually did that and came up with very good results.

I might add that PMQ wrote an article that mentioned the KA 00 flour, as follows:

Domestic versions are usually called Italian-style. You can also find an Italian 00 version made by King Arthur Flour Company. This particular version has a protein level of 8.5%, which is quite a bit lower than imported Italian 00 flour. Due to the difference in protein level, the way this flour performs in making dough may vary from the way the imported 00 flours perform.

These days, there are many domestic millers or sellers of 00 clone flours that appear to be of high quality. These include:

General Mills: https://www.generalmillscf.com/products/category/flour/hard-winter-wheat/gold-medal-neapolitan-50lb,

Ardent Mills: https://www.ardentmills.com/products/world-flours/neapolitan-00-style-pizza-flour/,

Central Milling: https://centralmilling.com/product/type-00-pizza-flour-organic-type-00-normal/ and https://centralmilling.com/product/organic-type-00-reinforced/, and

Grain Craft: https://www.graincraft.com/products/neapolitan-italian-style-pizzeria-flour/

There may well be other sources not specifically revealed in the flour thread I put together at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40212.0

Peter
Lots of great information. Thanks. I tried the old "Italian Style" flour from KA a few years ago, and my experience was pretty much the same as yours. And I think you're right in saying that it was a poor immitation of real "00" flours; and not just poor, but rather stupid and clumsy, especially coming from such an otherwise reliable miller. It was obvious (or at least it seemed obvious to me; maybe I was wrong) that they were just trying to pass off some variety of pastry flour as a usable flour for pizza, banking on the idea that it's low protein content would somehow replicate the soft handling characteristics of real Italian "00" flour, and apparently not even thinking about the fact that it would actually be a horrible flour for any kind of baked product requiring a reasonably strong gluten character. I have not idea what they were really thinking with that product, but it was a total failure as far as I was concerned.
 I wondered (and still wonder) how they got any customers to leave positive reviews for it at all. I have seen some people posit the idea that mixing cake flour with bread flour to replicate the character of "00" flour would somehow work. I think this a severely misguided idea, for reasons that I think should be pretty obvious to an experienced baker, but I almost wondered if the folks at KA actually ran with that one. And I have to say that the editors of PMQ were probably being kindly diplomatic in their assessment of the product.
 Of the domestic "00" flours you posted links to, I've only tried the GM Neapolitan (quite recently) and Contadino from Bay State Millers. I was hugely disappointed with the GM flour, and I thought the BSM flour was fine, but nothing exceptional. I've come to the conclusion (perhaps prematurely; others will either support me or refute me on this point, based on their own insights) that American wheat is just inherently unsuited to replicate an Italian flour of any kind. It's not just the grind or ash content; it's the nature of the protein itself. Italian wheat that's used for flour for bread and pizza is, as far as I know, made mostly from soft winter wheat; whereas American wheat grown for any purpose is pretty much all hard wheat, whether it's spring wheat or winter wheat, except soft red winter wheat, which is low in protein and not suitable for bread or pizza. I think that right there is more meaningful than any other factor. My favorite American flours (like Bob's Red Mill Artisan Bread Flour) tend to be made with hard winter wheat, but they're still made from hard wheat, and there's still a very noticeable difference between that and an Italian flour of any kind that I've ever used. 
 I'm still somewhat intrigued by the other "00" flours you posted, and it would be great to find one that was affordable and a suitable alternative for Italian flours of the same variety. But truth be told, my favorite Italian flours haven't been of the "00" variety anyway. I love Nuvola Super "0" from Caputo, and I also really like durum flour a lot. I have yet to try a "00" type that I thought was better than the Nuvola at what it does.
 
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Offline SonVolt

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #23 on: November 18, 2021, 09:02:50 AM »
I thought Caputo 00 flour was made with imported American wheat, then shipped back to the states.... that's what the Modernist pizza guys said and why it's not a good choice for Environmental reasons.

Offline wotavidone

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2021, 09:03:06 AM »

What do you mean by "real deal" in this regard? I'm new to pizza making, but from many of the recent podcasts and websites I've been reading (including Modernist Pizza and Joy of Pizza) they don't recommend Caputo at all. They claim you'll get better results with domestic flours and that Caputo is a bit of a scam in marketing.

By real deal, I mean that the Caputo flour is regarded by many, many people as the flour for Neapolitan pizza. Sorta like using San Marzano tomatoes.

Those who say it is a scam in marketing and claim you will get better results with domestic flours are probably right if you don't have a searing hot wood fired oven and a penchant for 60-90 second Neapolitan Margherita pizza.

But, with the disclaimer that I have never tried it, I would expect the KA "00" to be no better in this regard. And since it appears to cost even more than Caputo......

It's been said on this forum before, and I subscribe to the view, don't buy "00" flour until you can articulate exactly why you need it.

« Last Edit: November 18, 2021, 09:11:31 AM by wotavidone »
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Offline wotavidone

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2021, 09:40:20 AM »
I thought Caputo 00 flour was made with imported American wheat, then shipped back to the states.... that's what the Modernist pizza guys said and why it's not a good choice for Environmental reasons.
According to the FAQ's on their website, their flours are a blend of Italian and imported wheats.
North American (particularly Canadian) wheats, I believe.

Almost any wheat production is broadacre mono-culture, which some of the more rabid of my greenie mates condemn roundly. as being extremely environmentally wrong.
But there are heaps of foods we wouldn't eat if we were serious about cutting the transport component of their environmental impact.

In any case, as I previously stated, unless you've got a smokin' hot oven and a hankering for Margheritas, you probably don't need any type "00" flour.

Unless you are like me. I'm not the best stretcher of doughballs, and I revel in the extensibility of dough made with our local Gaganis Brothers 00 flour. Its not high protein, it is listed at 10% measured at 15% moisture, but it seems to stretch for miles.
I'm rockin' a wood fired brick oven though - browning the crust is no problem.

Of course, I have a great deal of success with supermarket floor too.
I like the Aldi brand - unbleached 10% protein, 45 Australian cents per pound. That'd be about 33 cents US per pound.

Edit: reading back through your posts, I see you can cook at 850F but felt the crust should be browner.
Watch a few Naples chefs on youtube - the pizzas don't come out particularly browned.

« Last Edit: November 18, 2021, 09:51:33 AM by wotavidone »
Mick

Online Pete-zza

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2021, 01:21:52 PM »
I have seen some people posit the idea that mixing cake flour with bread flour to replicate the character of "00" flour would somehow work. I think this a severely misguided idea, for reasons that I think should be pretty obvious to an experienced baker, but I almost wondered if the folks at KA actually ran with that one.
Randy,

I am in agreement with you on your assessment of the KA 00 flour. But I had to laugh when I read the material quoted above.

To understand the history of the 00 flour in the U.S., it is important to know that around 2000-2003 about the only 00 flours that were available at that time at the retail level in the U.S. were the Bel Aria and Delverde 00 flours, and there was little information on those flours. The Caputo 00 flour was available but not at the retail level. To learn more about 00 flours, I was referred by a seller of the Bell Aria flour to Fred Mortati of Orlando Food Sales since they couldn't answer any of my questions. Fred was very helpful in answering my questions about the 00 flours. Also, there were a couple of members who were professionals who used the Caputo 00 flour (Ron Molinaro at Il Pizzaiolo and Charlie Restivo at Naples 45), both of whom offered to give me samples of that flour. As a funny side note, Fred once laughed when I told him that I found an Italian document that mentioned his name and that when I used the Google translator, his name, Fred Mortati, was translated to Fred Dead.

To the foregoing, I should add that the only member I knew at the time who was actually using the Caputo 00 flour was our very own Bill/SFNM. I believe it was something in an Italian document (maybe the one referenced above) that provided that information.

Because 00 flours were not available at the retail level for some time, some people, including authors of pizza cookbooks, started using things like cake flour or pastry flour along with a regular flour, such as all purpose or bread flour, in an effort to clone authentic 00 flours. One such cookbook author, Pamela Sheldon Johns, who lived in Italy, had a recipe in her book (Pizza Napoletana!) for a classic Neapolitan style dough and it used a combination of pastry flour and all purpose flour. In another writing, she suggested cake flour. What she was trying to do was to soften the all purpose flour to simulate a 00 flour. Also, the famed Peter Reinhart, who had a recipe entitled NAPOLETANA PIZZA DOUGH in his famous book American Pie, used only unbleached all purpose flour in his recipe. Neither author was trying to pass off their recipes as being capable of making truly authentic Neapolitan pizzas. It was to make up for the fact that real 00 flours were not available in the U.S.

I should further note that even before I became aware of the above authors, I became aware of "equivalents" to 00 flour through the writings of Carol Field (The Italian Baker) and CuisineAtHome.com), and Julia Childs. Both recommended a combination of pastry flour and all-purpose flour.

Since I was intrigued by the attempted clones mentioned above, I set out to try some of them. And I did it with a vengeance. I say this because when I did a forum search this morning to find relevant posts where I used the term cake flour in the context of 00 clone flours, I got over 70 hits. and some were for actual recipes. And if you do an advanced forum search for such posts using the keywords "00 cake flour Peter" (without the quotes), and my forum user name Pete-zza, you will see the posts. But, for the time being, these posts, in no particular order, may be enough:

Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=819.msg7693;topicseen#msg7693

Reply 9 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11033.msg100309;topicseen#msg100309

Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1104.msg9835;topicseen#msg9835

Reply 8 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=538.msg4780;topicseen#msg4780

Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3638.msg30672;topicseen#msg30672

Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1278.msg11466;topicseen#msg11466

Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1566.msg14293.html#msg14293

Reply 21 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3240.msg27457;topicseen#msg27457

Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1979.msg17457;topicseen#msg17457

Reply 9 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7527.msg64804;topicseen#msg64804 (this post touches on how the 00 flours often used imported flours)

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Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2021, 01:42:55 AM »

To the foregoing, I should add that the only member I knew at the time who was actually using the Caputo 00 flour was our very own Bill/SFNM. I believe it was something in an Italian document (maybe the one referenced above) that provided that information.


I had just built my WFO, so it must have been around 2002 or 2003. I was not happy with my Neapolitan crust so I posted on an Italian pizza forum seeking a source for flour for real Neapolitan pizza. David, one of the early members of this forum, was also on that forum and he connected me up with Fred, who then hooked me up with a distributor. In retrospect, not only had I been using the wrong flour, but also the wrong hydration, mixer, salt level, fermentation protocol, dough ball size, shaping method, toppings....  ;)

Offline HansB

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2021, 07:48:51 AM »
Back in the mid 90's on one of my first trips to Italy, I went to a grocery store and bought some 00 flour and thought I had found the Holy Grail and secret to good pizza. Of course when I got home and used the flour for pizza to be baked in my home oven it was a flop! I didn't know much of anything about dough/pizza at the time, but I was very disappointed!  :-D
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Offline Gene in Acadiana

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2021, 03:21:44 PM »
Back in the mid 90's on one of my first trips to Italy, I went to a grocery store and bought some 00 flour and thought I had found the Holy Grail and secret to good pizza. Of course when I got home and used the flour for pizza to be baked in my home oven it was a flop! I didn't know much of anything about dough/pizza at the time, but I was very disappointed!  :-D

I had the exact same experience when I learned about 00. And I kept blaming myself or other ingredients that  I was using for all the failures so it took a long time to figure it all out. Early on I also bought into the myth that the type of water makes a huge difference, going so far as buying really over-priced Italian spring water for the dough. If only something like this forum existed 25 years ago, I would have saved a lot of money, time, and hair-pulling.

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Offline misterschu

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2022, 11:28:37 AM »
I must agree that the KA 00 flour is somewhat over priced, but I picked some up last week because it was on sale at the walking distance grocery. More offensive to me than the price is the flour being described for use in home ovens... Anyways, KA 00 was not the most expensive option on the shelf, Delallo 00 was sitting at eye level at $8+ for 17.6 oz!!!!   The current packaging states 3g protein per 30g serving (same as caputo chef's packaging).

Anyways, baked four pies in my blackstone last night with the KA 00 (62% hydration, 2.3% salt, 3% starter) and found the resulting pizzas very enjoyable. At that hydration they were not quite as dry as Caputo ('chef's') is, but were drier than Anna 00. The baked pies were very tender, charred appropriately at full blast and were very enjoyable to eat overall. Without doing a side by side comparison of all three I'm not sure I'd be able to describe differences in how the baked doughs eat/feel.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2022, 12:20:56 PM »
Remember 3g protein per 30g serving could mean anything from 8.2% to 11.5%.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2022, 12:29:54 PM »
I thought Caputo Chef showed 4g/30g or 13g/100g depending on the packaging? I think it's 13%.
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Offline misterschu

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2022, 01:57:28 PM »
I thought Caputo Chef showed 4g/30g or 13g/100g depending on the packaging? I think it's 13%.

Don't have any myself at the moment, so just going off photos from the internet. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0038ZS6PU/?tag=pmak-20

Remember 3g protein per 30g serving could mean anything from 8.2% to 11.5%.
yes, someone either in this thread or another linked to this list, describing KA's commercial product... it's always possible that the commercial 00 is distinct from the retail 00 https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/pro/products

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2022, 03:48:20 PM »
it's always possible that the commercial 00 is distinct from the retail 00 https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/pro/products

I doubt it. KASG and KAAP are the same flour as are KASP and KABF.
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Offline NewPizzaMaker

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2022, 10:58:26 AM »
A new acquaintance recently put me on to a store in Adelaide South Australia where I can buy Caputo (i.e. the real deal) for about $1.50 Australian per pound.
I get Australian made 00 flour for about $1 Australian (about 75c US) per pound,  so that flour seems very expensive.

Would love to know the store as I currently live in South Australia :)

Online RHawthorne

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2022, 11:39:51 AM »
Just for the hell of it, to refresh my memory or see if it's any different now (don't even ask why), I picked up a bag of this "new" KA 00 flour a couple of months ago. I used it once or twice, with unremarkable results, and haven't used it again since. My opinion of this product is more or less unchanged, although I will say it doesn't turn into the useless mush when mixed with water that it did in years past. The final analysis for me is that even if it is somewhat improved from the earlier version (I guess), I still don't think it's worth bothering with, and definitely not worth the asking price.
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Offline misterschu

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Re: KA 00 pizza flour
« Reply #37 on: April 11, 2022, 05:20:17 PM »
I doubt it. KASG and KAAP are the same flour as are KASP and KABF.

yes, i also assume they're the same product, meaning the retail bag of KA00 is 11% protein

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