A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Author Topic: James's Neapolitan pizzas (somewhere in Zurich)  (Read 1463 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Quenthel

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Zürich, Switzerland
James's Neapolitan pizzas (somewhere in Zurich)
« on: January 10, 2022, 02:15:41 PM »
Hey everyone,

I am starting this thread to catalogue all my pizza-making attempts, which almost exclusively fall in the Neapolitan category.

This one is a 50% Cuoco - 50% Pizzeria with 70% hydration. It was made with a 24h poolish plus one day of cold fermentation, followed by... 17 days in the freezer. I made those right before leaving for my vacations and I wanted to see if this dough was still usable.

Not seeing much oven spring but I really like those bubbles on the cornicione. It was very light and easily digestible, but the hydration was a bit too high and would have liked a bit more crunch. Taste-wise it was on par with what I expect from my standard pizzas with that special hint that long fermentation carries.

I usually go for 1 day of poolish plus 1-2 days of cold fermentation. I want to try a longer c.f. duration, but I don't want to overproof the dough. How would you suggest doing a let's say 4 day fermentation if the dough has puffed up a lot in the second day already?
« Last Edit: January 10, 2022, 03:03:04 PM by Pete-zza »
/James

Offline Quenthel

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Re: James's Neapolitan pizzas (somewhere in Zurich)
« Reply #1 on: January 11, 2022, 06:50:15 AM »
I had another dough in the freezer which I promptly baked today. This one was 62% hydration and I saw some obvious differences.

Taste-wise I don't think there was any significant difference compared to yesterday's. Perhaps it tasted a bit more chewy (it also felt more chewy, sure, but also tasted so, if that makes sense), but no significant differences there. The only notable difference is that the one from yesterday would refuse being balled up and would turn into a frisbee within a few minutes, where as this one was a bit tougher to work with but could still hold its shape.

I couldn't get much of an oven rise in the whole of pizza, only the side that was closer to the burners when I first put it in the oven would puff up a bit (unlike the other sides that gradually warmed up by the stone only).
I guess that this is the result of the freezing followed by the defrosting (in the fridge). Not a bad pizza, but not to the level of my typical cold-fermented ones.

This has some ham, Feta instead of Parmesan as the bottom layer and a run-of-the-mill mozzarella from the supermarket. The sauce is close to the traditional uncooked Neapolitan sauce from canned peeled tomatoes, but I do add a few more herbs to the mix (and drain it a bit).
« Last Edit: February 05, 2022, 05:02:49 PM by Pete-zza »
/James

Offline Wario

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 303
  • Location: Frozenlands
  • Wario gonna get you!
Re: James's Neapolitan pizzas (somewhere in Zurich)
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2022, 12:35:06 PM »
I have worked with frozen dough balls also and they make good pizza too! Now when i have some dough balls left i freeze them.

Very nice pizza's!  :chef:

Offline Quenthel

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Re: James's Neapolitan pizzas (somewhere in Zurich)
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2022, 04:47:38 PM »
I have worked with frozen dough balls also and they make good pizza too! Now when i have some dough balls left i freeze them.

Very nice pizza's!  :chef:

They felt they were close to over-proofing, or it might have been the high hydration. I have frozen a few more and I will know in a few weeks (or whenever) how they worked out.

Tomorrow I have guests coming, and it's going to be a 2-day (poolish + proofing) dough made with Pizzeria, along with a 6 day cold fermented one made with Cuoco and Nuvola. Can't wait!
/James

Offline 9slicePie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 767
Re: James's Neapolitan pizzas (somewhere in Zurich)
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2022, 05:29:46 PM »
What oven do you use?

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline Quenthel

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Re: James's Neapolitan pizzas (somewhere in Zurich)
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2022, 10:08:10 AM »
What oven do you use?

An Ooni 16, no mods apart from a (removable) door from a company named Inoo, which I use just to get the oven up to temp faster. Very happy with it, especially happy that I don't have to deal with flame maintenance, heretical as it may sound.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 12:36:00 PM by Quenthel »
/James

Offline Quenthel

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Re: James's Neapolitan pizzas (somewhere in Zurich)
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2022, 10:19:54 AM »
My guests are gone, I made 9 balls in total, 5 of them from a 5-day cold fermentation dough (20% PIzzeria for the poolish, then 40% Cuoco and 40% Nuvola) and 4 more from a 2-day fermentation one (100% Pizzeria).

According to my guests, taste-wise they couldn't really tell much of a difference (me neither if I'm honest, which  means I can rely to making 2-day doughs made with Pizzeria and still be like 98% there), however the 5 day dough puffed up a bit better. Both were around 62% of hydration, I could easily go to 65% without having too many issues with stretching.

I had two sauces made, a traditional uncooked Neapolitan sauce with a few extra herbs (thyme, oregano and a touch of dried garlic), and a white one (alfredo garlic). Everyone liked both sauces but they liked the white one more.

We made 5 pizzas in total until we couldn't possibly have any more. Started with a Margherita and then went to combinations. The two shown here are as follows:
* The white pizza had chicken, corn, onions, mushrooms, salami (pepperoni)
* The red one had fresh mozzarela, salami, mushrooms, and lots of fresh basil leaves.

Also, be quick of be burnt! I couldn't grab the first pizza with the turning peel properly and it shows! Still, most of the damage was done to surface bubbles only, so it didn't have a burnt taste really.
/James

Offline Quenthel

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Re: James's Neapolitan pizzas (somewhere in Zurich)
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2022, 12:33:18 PM »
Sorry for spamming, but I had to post another one.

This is what I usually call "The Last Chance Pizza". It's the very last pizza of the day, sometimes hours after the last one of the batch, where I will put every leftover ingredient to avoid throwing them away. It's usually not a great pizza either, because it's full of toppings which is a really bad idea with Neapolitan ones. If any of us has survived lunch, that one makes us hate pizza for a week!

Onion, chicken (cold cut), corn, mushrooms and mozzarela with the last of the sauce and grated parmesan that was left. No salami (pepperoni); that was too good and it was completely gone :). Also, lots of basil, I can't get enough of it.

I got distracted however and those big bubbles on the right caught on fire before I had the chance to turn the pizza.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2022, 12:35:04 PM by Quenthel »
/James

Offline GPalmer

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 67
  • Location: Florida
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: James's Neapolitan pizzas (somewhere in Zurich)
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2022, 03:35:39 PM »
Very nice pizzas from beginning to end.

Offline Quenthel

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Re: James's Neapolitan pizzas (somewhere in Zurich)
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2022, 05:53:29 AM »
I unfroze another dough ball, which during the thawing process in the fridge turned into a frisbee. Damn it.
I suspect overproofing. Hydration wasn't that high initially and it could hold its shape when balled, but I suspect that by the time I removed it from the freezer, then the fridge and it came to room temperature, it was too late.

So the next time (in a couple of days) I freeze dough balls, I'll make sure that they haven't had too much time to proof outside the fridge yet.

On this one I put some leftover shredded dry Mozzarela, bacon cubes (very common in the DACH region) and basil. Quite salty pizza, since the cheese and the bacon threw me for a loop; closer to NY style. The bottom was a tad undercooked, because again, I didn't do the math right and I didn't lower the flame temperature in the oven enough, but taste-wise the dough was brilliant and the whole combination was good enough to see me making it again in the future.

Next updates are going to be an unfrozen dough (without too much initial RT proofing) and a fridge fermented one (at 4 degrees C). Thanks for reading so far!
/James

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline lennyk

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 214
Re: James's Neapolitan pizzas (somewhere in Zurich)
« Reply #10 on: January 18, 2022, 05:06:56 AM »
Nice pies there.

Offline Quenthel

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Re: James's Neapolitan pizzas (somewhere in Zurich)
« Reply #11 on: January 18, 2022, 06:02:59 AM »
Thanks everyone for the kind words! I am back with another couple of pizzas.

These two pizzas are made with 100% Nuvola, 65% hydration. 24h cold-fermented poolish (if I leave it in RT, it goes over too quickly) followed by 2 days in the fridge for the first one and in the freezer for the second, after both having proofed in room temperature for 1,5h. I removed the one from the freezer yesterday evening and put it on the fridge until today, then I took both out from the fridge, pre-shaped them both a bit and let them warm-up for about 1h.

First impressions. The fridge-only dough was warmer and as such I didn't get that many spots. On the other hand, it got a oiled more than I have liked, which explained the brown colour. I avoid adding oil to the dough, unless I have to place it into individual oiled containers in the fridge. For frozen doughs I usually don't oil the containers at all.

Both doughs were puffy, thanks to Nuvola and the hydration level, but the frozen seemed to be a tad puffier. When balling the dough the formerly-frozen one felt better proofed. Not a bit of crunchiness however, both had super-soft cornicione.

Taste-wise, both felt like the Nuvola dough I did in my experiment. The dough was a bit gummy inside, not uncooked, but not bready or that airy either. I really wanted to like Nuvola, but I don't think I'll be buying it again. This time though, the 65% hydration felt dry and elastic, making a rather nice dough to handle in the preparation stage.

Nothing special about the pizzas themselves, my typical Neapolitan sauce, parmesan, fresh mozzarela, basil. Tasted good, but not excellent, and I suspect the choice of flour is to blame here.


I have a couple more of this dough in balls (one in the fridge and the other in the freezer). I think I'll give them 3 more days for a total of five, and see how that behaves then.
/James

Offline Quenthel

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Re: James's Neapolitan pizzas (somewhere in Zurich)
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2022, 12:18:43 PM »
I am back again with a 4-day cold fermented dough (the one with Nuvola); a continuation of my previous post. I made a couple of mistakes here:

1. The pizza stone reached ~430C (~800F) at the center of the stone. In my experience it needs to be 30-50C higher, especially with this flour.
2. I removed the (now flattened) dough ball from the fridge, but I didn't reball it. The bottom side was naturally very porous and the dough was too soft and spreadable (definitely not overfermented though, but not as tight as the previous ones). I think I ought to have reshaped the ball 30' or so after I removed it from the fridge and let it rest for 30-60' more.

How was the dough? Taste was great. 3-5 days in the fridge does wonders. Too soft though, I suspect again that this is due to the flour and the stone not being hot enough. But you know what, this time, Nuvola tasted better and didn't bother me like it did last time. Sauce is my typical Neapolitan and the mozzarela is a (rather too wet) di Buffala along with some grated Parmigiano.
/James

Offline Quenthel

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Re: James's Neapolitan pizzas (somewhere in Zurich)
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2022, 06:45:00 AM »
Hello again! This time I created a video about the process I usually follow. I usually use a KitchenAid to mix and knead the dough, but occasionally I will go for the simplest approach. Also, I cheated a bit, and had to use a different dough than the one I took out of the tupperware because of an... accident.
Still the process is the same, 12 hours of poolish (alternatively, 24h of cold fermented poolish with an order of magnitude more yeast), followed by 2-4 days of cold fermentation at 5C. Admittedly 2 days is not really enough, but after the 4th it starts increasing rapidly and I have to slap it down.

I am still very much an amateur at pizza making, so I am always looking for things I can do to improve my process, but nevertheless, I enjoy the whole journey!

Thanks for watching!

« Last Edit: January 22, 2022, 08:09:51 AM by Quenthel »
/James

Offline Quenthel

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Re: James's Neapolitan pizzas (somewhere in Zurich)
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2022, 02:25:48 PM »
Hi everyone,

I'm back with 3 more pizzas I made today, a bit of an experiment.

Before I got my pizza oven, I used to add a dash sugar and a bit of oil in the dough, to make my kitchen oven's life easier. I stopped doing that after I got the Ooni, but I was curious as to how much do these two ingredients matter with it. So, here we are.

The first and second pizzas are made with a 3 day cold-fermented dough that contained sugar. I froze the dough and allowed it 24h to thaw in the fridge prior to use. The hydration on the first one was 70%, whilst on the second was 80% (Cuoco).

* The first pizza has a bit of parmesan at the base, wet mozzarella and prosciutto. You can immediately notice that the crust is uniformly brown, very unusual to the pizzas i usually make with the Ooni, but understandable thanks to the sugar. It didn't have this... "brown crunchiness" that home ovens cause, however. You can also see that there isn't much of an oven rise here.

* The second pizza was made with pre-shredded mozzarella & cheddar mix instead of the wet mozzarella and baked at a slowly lower stone & ambient temperatures. I was going for a NY-style'ish pizza. There was almost no oven rise here; the dough was too floppy and didn't even need any stretching whatsoever. The leopard spotting is a bit better here, but still kinda weak. The cheese was turned to a crust in some spots, but I don't mind that at all (in hindsight, I should have used a lower temperature overall).


Now the third pizza is from a batch where instead of sugar I added a bit of oil in the dough, after the initial autolysis. This is a 70% hydration dough made with Cuoco. This one wasn't frozen, but left to cold ferment for one day in the fridge. This looks way closer to what I usually make. The dough didn't feel or taste too different however. It has wet mozzarella (but drier than the one I usually use), parmesan on the base, smoked sausage ("pepperoni") and sundried tomato.

-----------

The first pizza was... OK. A bit bland but not that bad all things considered.

I expected way more from the second one, especially considering the mix of cheeses (parmesan, mozzarella, cheddar) and the prosciutto but I was disappointed; didn't feel salty enough if you could believe it and had better NY-style pizzas made with my home oven.

The third pizza was way better. I got great oven rise, I didn't taste any of the burnt spots (as expected) and everything tasted great, even the dough itself despite being only 1 day old.

It did however kind of put the final nail in the coffin of the frozen doughs. Not sure what I'm doing wrong, but I don't think I'll ever freeze my pizza doughs again.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2022, 05:00:01 PM by Pete-zza »
/James

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline 02ebz06

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7686
  • Location: Rio Rancho, NM USA
Re: James's Neapolitan pizzas (somewhere in Zurich)
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2022, 02:37:41 PM »
I make my dough balls and freeze them immediately.
Since Saturday is our pizza day, I take a dough ball out, put in proofing container on Tuesday.
That allows 1 day to thaw and 3 days to CF.
Then take it out of fridge a couple hours before baking.
Bruce here... My cooking toys --> FGM 800-B Pizza Oven, Pellet Grill, Pellet Smoker, Propane Griddle, Propane Grill

Offline Quenthel

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Re: James's Neapolitan pizzas (somewhere in Zurich)
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2022, 04:33:14 PM »
I make my dough balls and freeze them immediately.
Since Saturday is our pizza day, I take a dough ball out, put in proofing container on Tuesday.
That allows 1 day to thaw and 3 days to CF.
Then take it out of fridge a couple hours before baking.

Thanks, I will give it a go. Do you let it bulk ferment for an hour or two in room temperature at any step of the procedure?
/James

Offline 02ebz06

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7686
  • Location: Rio Rancho, NM USA
Re: James's Neapolitan pizzas (somewhere in Zurich)
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2022, 05:07:01 PM »
Thanks, I will give it a go. Do you let it bulk ferment for an hour or two in room temperature at any step of the procedure?
Only the last step before baking, and that is mainly to let it warm up.
Bruce here... My cooking toys --> FGM 800-B Pizza Oven, Pellet Grill, Pellet Smoker, Propane Griddle, Propane Grill

Offline 02ebz06

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7686
  • Location: Rio Rancho, NM USA
Re: James's Neapolitan pizzas (somewhere in Zurich)
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2022, 05:09:18 PM »
I make my dough balls and freeze them immediately.
Since Saturday is our pizza day, I take a dough ball out, put in proofing container, then into fridge on Tuesday.
That allows 1 day to thaw and 3 days to CF.
Then take it out of fridge a couple hours before baking.

EDIT: I left a step out, see bold text above.
Bruce here... My cooking toys --> FGM 800-B Pizza Oven, Pellet Grill, Pellet Smoker, Propane Griddle, Propane Grill

Offline Quenthel

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 24
  • Location: Zürich, Switzerland
Re: James's Neapolitan pizzas (somewhere in Zurich)
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2022, 07:41:08 AM »
Accidental Canotto!

One of the doughs I had in the fridge; about 3 days old. 100% Cuoco, 75% hydration. I didn't purposely shape it into a Canotto; I went for a standard Napoletana, but well... it blew up. This also has some oil in the dough and I could say it adds a tiny bit to the overall taste. I think, I can never explicitly tell.
/James

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


 

wordpress