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Author Topic: Dough Weight for 14 Inch NY Style Pizza  (Read 1415 times)

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Offline Samson

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Dough Weight for 14 Inch NY Style Pizza
« on: January 27, 2022, 08:52:50 PM »
Hi I've been trying to make a 14 inch NY style pizza with 400g of dough. I really can't get much past 12 inches before the dough becomes too thin and I have trouble getting it on the peel or it ends up having an irregular shape after baking.

I'm using a 65% hydration dough with King Arthur bread flour, and I've ranged from 1% to 3% oil. I thought I saw that 400g was common for a dough this size but haven't had any luck. I realize a lower dough hydration would make it easier but I'm curious if anyone has any luck with this weight and size at 65%.

Thanks!

Offline billg

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Re: Dough Weight for 14 Inch NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1 on: January 27, 2022, 09:24:37 PM »
How are you mixing your dough, how long are your fermentation times and at what temperatures?

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Dough Weight for 14 Inch NY Style Pizza
« Reply #2 on: January 27, 2022, 10:02:45 PM »
I use 65 hydration and 300g for 14" thin crust NY.

Offline Samson

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Re: Dough Weight for 14 Inch NY Style Pizza
« Reply #3 on: January 27, 2022, 10:13:42 PM »
I've done a bunch of different approaches (I've been trying for a few months). I've done hand mixing, using my kitchen aid mixer. I've recently started doing 3-4 minutes on kitchen aid then stretch and fold for 60 min. The dough has been getting stronger that way. I only started focusing on temp recently but it's been around 70 degrees when done mixing and stretching/baking at around 65.

Offline jsobolew

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Re: Dough Weight for 14 Inch NY Style Pizza
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2022, 10:44:16 PM »
I use a 395g ball for a 16" pizza and sometimes stretch it out to 17". It is possible but depends on your dough and practices. It also depends on how thin your cornice is, in my case it is not much thicker than the rest of the pizza.

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Offline Samson

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Re: Dough Weight for 14 Inch NY Style Pizza
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2022, 08:51:06 AM »
Yea I make what I think is a pretty thick cornicione, but I've tried to make it a half inch and still hasn't worked out.

I'm thinking the gluten development still isn't there so I'll try a few more folds and see if it improves.

Here are some pictures, it's pretty good otherwise.

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Dough Weight for 14 Inch NY Style Pizza
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2022, 09:44:15 AM »
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "stretch and fold for 60 minutes". I can't imagine you mean doing that for such a length of time continuously. But whatever you mean, there is definitely such a thing as overworking the gluten, and in my experience, stretches and folds should be done after the dough has had at least one initial rising period of at least a couple of hours, not right after the initial mixing. I'm thinking you're making the dough too tough with whatever you're doing. You also haven't said how long you're fermenting your dough before using it, and that could be an area of concern. You want to give your dough time to rise and then relax. Extensibility is all about timing. If you use the dough when it's too fresh and it's not done with the initial cycle of fermentation, it will be too tense. You should be able to get a 14" pie with no more than 350 grams of dough at the absolute max, imo. If you like a thicker pizza, there's nothing wrong with that. But if you're aiming for a thin crust pizza with good aeration in the outer rim, I strongly suggest not trying to rush your dough. Time is your friend.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2022, 09:46:03 AM by RHawthorne »
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Offline Samson

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Re: Dough Weight for 14 Inch NY Style Pizza
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2022, 09:59:22 AM »
Thanks, I can clarify a bit.

My recent process was to mix for a few minutes and let the dough bulk ferment for 60 minutes with 2 stretches during that period. I let it sit for 30 more minutes after the fold then I ball it.

After that I put the dough in the fridge at around 40 degrees for 24 hours. I take it out and let it sit for about 2 hours and warm up before stretching it out.

I don't think I'm overworking it with this method (previous methods I definitely was) and I now see a huge improvement so I'm hoping that's not still my problem, but maybe it is.

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Dough Weight for 14 Inch NY Style Pizza
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2022, 10:43:56 AM »
Thanks, I can clarify a bit.

My recent process was to mix for a few minutes and let the dough bulk ferment for 60 minutes with 2 stretches during that period. I let it sit for 30 more minutes after the fold then I ball it.

After that I put the dough in the fridge at around 40 degrees for 24 hours. I take it out and let it sit for about 2 hours and warm up before stretching it out.

I don't think I'm overworking it with this method (previous methods I definitely was) and I now see a huge improvement so I'm hoping that's not still my problem, but maybe it is.
Okay, I guess I somehow misread your post. For some reason I was thinking you meant that the dough didn't want to stretch out far enough. Yeah, 400 g of dough should definitely be stretchable to 14" without becoming too thin and weak. Are you by chance using any kind of dough conditioner?
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Offline Samson

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Re: Dough Weight for 14 Inch NY Style Pizza
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2022, 11:06:10 AM »
No I'm not.

Yea I can definitely stretch it, it just becomes too thin it's a struggle to keep it shaped well and off the peel smoothly. I thought it was because of the high oil content but even at 1% I had the same issues.

I think it's could also just be my shaping/stretching technique. Maybe i'm pulling too much from the center of the dough and not enough from the outer areas. I'm thinking of trying again today and I can share pictures of how it goes. If I do it today though I won't refrigerate it I'll just let it sit out for 6 hours or so.

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Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Dough Weight for 14 Inch NY Style Pizza
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2022, 11:19:16 AM »
No I'm not.

Yea I can definitely stretch it, it just becomes too thin it's a struggle to keep it shaped well and off the peel smoothly. I thought it was because of the high oil content but even at 1% I had the same issues.

I think it's could also just be my shaping/stretching technique. Maybe i'm pulling too much from the center of the dough and not enough from the outer areas. I'm thinking of trying again today and I can share pictures of how it goes. If I do it today though I won't refrigerate it I'll just let it sit out for 6 hours or so.
Handling and shaping techniques are definitely important, and it can take some time to get it right. If that's all it is, you'll get there, I'm sure. Sound like you already have some idea of what to try next time.
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Offline Samson

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Re: Dough Weight for 14 Inch NY Style Pizza
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2022, 01:03:14 PM »
I don't think there was anything wrong with the dough I think it was mostly technique. The stretching was fine but I use a 14 inch peel and even when I stretch it out that size on the peel it shrinks a bit when I launch it into the oven. I used a bigger peel, made the pizza 15 inches and it shrunk to a little under the 14 inches I was trying to get. Although the 14inch pizza with 400g is way to thin for my preference, I'll probably use a larger dough ball going forward.

The irregularity I got in the past was also probably related to poor launching technique more than anything else. I think I just need to practice that more.

I'm curious if anyone makes 14 inch pies do you make the pizza on the peel or on the counter and slide onto the peel? I had been sliding it on and it was too thin to make that transfer, not necessarily too thin to get into the oven.

Thanks!

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Dough Weight for 14 Inch NY Style Pizza
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2022, 02:11:11 PM »
I don't think there was anything wrong with the dough I think it was mostly technique. The stretching was fine but I use a 14 inch peel and even when I stretch it out that size on the peel it shrinks a bit when I launch it into the oven. I used a bigger peel, made the pizza 15 inches and it shrunk to a little under the 14 inches I was trying to get. Although the 14inch pizza with 400g is way to thin for my preference, I'll probably use a larger dough ball going forward.

The irregularity I got in the past was also probably related to poor launching technique more than anything else. I think I just need to practice that more.

I'm curious if anyone makes 14 inch pies do you make the pizza on the peel or on the counter and slide onto the peel? I had been sliding it on and it was too thin to make that transfer, not necessarily too thin to get into the oven.

Thanks!
I shape the dough on the counter and then transfer it to the peel. Then I top it on the peel.
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Offline amolapizza

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Re: Dough Weight for 14 Inch NY Style Pizza
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2022, 03:54:23 PM »
I think this is one of the best stretching videos I've seen..!

Jack

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Offline kori

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Re: Dough Weight for 14 Inch NY Style Pizza
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2022, 04:09:02 PM »
Here is another one of her videos on hand stretching, little more detail.

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Offline Samson

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Re: Dough Weight for 14 Inch NY Style Pizza
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2022, 09:44:31 AM »
Wow thank you this is very helpful.

I have a few initial thoughts of when watching that.

First is that I haven't tried 50/50 blend with semolina and I will try that next. The next is that she does a much smaller rim than I do and a lot of my dough is clearly going there.

The biggest difference and probably issue for me is that my dough is just much weaker and stickier than what she is using. I can tell by the way she handles it and the small amount of flour she puts on that it just has a very different consistency. I would have to coat my dough balls in flour, if a tiny piece isn't coated it will stick to my hands, she doesn't seem to have to be that extreme.

I'm not sure if that's because she is using a lower hydration, I am just underdeveloping my gluten or a combination of both. If I tried with a 58% or 60% dough ball I think I could probably get pretty close to what she does. I just am not there yet at 65% (or higher)

Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: Dough Weight for 14 Inch NY Style Pizza
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2022, 08:20:45 PM »
FWIW, we never slap dough here at work... our dough is much too soft to do that. We pick it up and rotate it in our hands, just below the rim..... the weight of the dough will actually stretch the dough for you. Maybe I need to video it sometime.

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Dough Weight for 14 Inch NY Style Pizza
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2022, 10:51:43 PM »
FWIW, we never slap dough here at work... our dough is much too soft to do that. We pick it up and rotate it in our hands, just below the rim..... the weight of the dough will actually stretch the dough for you. Maybe I need to video it sometime.
That sounds pretty much like how I handle my dough at home. I don't even lift it very far off the table until I've got it within three inches or so of the diameter I want. I used to go with 60% hydration or under, but I've been gravitating towards more like 68% to 70% for a while now because I'm happier with the finished crust, and I feel the need to handle the dough more gently than I used to.
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Offline amolapizza

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Re: Dough Weight for 14 Inch NY Style Pizza
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2022, 06:53:28 PM »
Yes, it probably goes without saying, that there is no right or wrong way to make pizza!  Though I'd contend that there are better and worse ways.. :)

I think it's not so much a question of a recipe but rather that of a process that you have to work through to find the way that works for you, and that delivers a result that YOU are happy with.  I'm amazed that I've ended up at 58% with Caputo pizzeria flour..  By many accounts that's too little, but still it seems to work out for me with 70, 150, and 210 seconds pizza (different Italian styles).  I also undermix my dough, albeit in a spiral mixer and when I ball after an hour it's super smooth.

This one is really difficult to explain, but making pizza is  also a chain of steps that you go though, and any deficiency in an earlier stage will make later stages more difficult, as well as it might cause even bigger problems later (the problems intensify).  When you have a problem with the final product, then go back and examine your experience at each step, trying to figure out where it went wrong.

One of the problems when starting out at home making pizza is that you don't know how the dough should feel, if you would have been taught by someone you'd have that tactile sense that tells you when things are right.  Lacking this all you can do is experiment, but I'd advice to hand mix a few doughs..  By all means use a KA, or other kitchen mixer to mix the components, and once it starts taking form thow it on the kitchen bench, or a stone or a table and start kneading it. Keep turning the dough 90 degrees, and pull it out and fold it back over itself.  There are loads of methods and videos on youtube, hard to say which is better.. Many different ways lead to rome, but they'll all be slightly different!

With a couple of tries you'll start feeling when the dough is starting to dry up and going from sticky to tacky, I can only describe it as getting a skin on the outside.  This is what the Italians call the punto di pasta, and it's the point where you stop kneading, let it rest for a while, and then form the balls.  After that you can RT or CF it, I'm in the RT camp as I have a small fridge and no place for a dough tray, but also because this is the traditional Italian way.

I don't know American flours so I can't speculate what hydration you should use.  But I'd contend that if you are having problems at 65%, then try 62% and see what happens.  There is no absolute truth that 65% is better than 62%, in fact it also depends on how you make the dough, how you ferment it, etc, etc.  It also very much depends on your oven and baking time, the one thing you don't want is a gummy or under baked crust.  That is IMO meh, and not very digestible.

To the OP, if you really are serious about learning this, then please post photos (and/or videos) of your dough at the various stages, I'm sure that there are many here waiting to help you.  Not the same as learning from a master, but this is a really great forum and a great place to learn!

Also if you go the folding route, then observe your dough very carefully.  If you see that the fold did something good to your dough, keep doing it.  Once it doesn't seem to improve, then stop!  And if you continue to force it, you'll see how it starts to deteriorate, in that case stop immediately and say three Ave Maria (or similar).. :D

But it doesn't sound like you folded the dough too much..  Let's see what leaving a bulge in the middle, some edge stretching, and maybe some knuckle stretching of your dough brings.  And please, post photos.. :)

Also be aware that when you ball the dough you'd like to create a tension on the outside skin, but you don't really want any holes on the bottom..  If you start with the finished dough ball upside down you can close any obvious one with your fingers, but if too big they can lead to thin spots in your pizza.

To finish off, I thought your photos looked really nice, I'd be happy to tear into that pizza..!  :drool:

Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline Jackitup

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Re: Dough Weight for 14 Inch NY Style Pizza
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2022, 11:36:59 PM »
Just to jump in a minute, if having problems now and then with irregular thick and thin spots, contrary to the opinion of many, it is NOT a mortal sin to gently/judiciously to use a roller now and then! These are my favorites just to touch up a little here and there. My #1 favorite is the homemade one made from a half paint roller and a piece of PVC that I sanded the sharp edges down. Or course, staying off the cornice and not rolling out the bubbles.....GENTLE! The old saying that has been used pertaining to bread making, dough handling too....."iron fist, velvet glove"!
Jon

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