Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => Neapolitan Style => Topic started by: Arne_Jervell on May 26, 2018, 05:06:59 AM

Title: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 26, 2018, 05:06:59 AM
Upon returning from a four-day trip to Naples (Italy) this spring, I came home with a very clear idea of what my ideal pizza dough is. In one word: Sorbillo.  :drool:

I visited a lot of excellent pizzerias, and I ate a lot of excellent Margherita. They all had something special to them, but Sorbillo's dough was so so good, I was close to tears. In a nutshell, the crust is so soft, delicate and flavourful that it takes almost no effort to bite through the puffy cornicione. That's what I want.

How to get there?  ???

Here are some factors that I believe can be manipulated in order to achieve my goal:

Mixing process
I am currently using Craig's process as he has described it in detail in his sticky. I get good results, yet perhaps there are things I could do to get a softer, lighter crumb? Icelandr recently reminded me of capturing air through stretch and folds. What other factors might I consider focusing on?

Maturation time
I started out making 48 hour RT doughs but have more or less standardized on 24 hour doughs for the past year. Seeming to remember that my cornicione of the past was fluffier, I have made som 48 hour batches recently in order to compare. Not sure that I see much of a difference, to be hones. Something else must give, or?

Type of yeast
Will a SD based dough produce a more tender crust than one made with IDY? It could be just in my head, but I remember a couple of years ago when I first started using the Ischia culture, the tenderness improved dramatically. This year, the culture appears to have weakened and is behaving unpredictably, so I have gone back to IDY for a couple of batches. Suddenly the crust was less tender than before. Is this a thing, or all in my head?

Hydration percentage
I admin it: I'm chasing the high of hydration percentages. From starting out with Craig's 62.5%, I have been pushing it gradually up to about 67% now (Caputo Pizzeria BTW). In my mind, this has made for softer and more delicate crust, which is the direction I want (unfortunately, more difficult to handle dough goes with the territory I guess). Drooling over Sauzer's pizzas has confirmed this to me. However, I have started to wonder... Craig's pies look amazing, and from what I have gathered, even at Sorbillo they use relatively low hydration (in the high 50s or possibly low 60s is what I think I have been told). Having seen the pizzaioli at Sorbillo handle the dough though, I just cannot for the life of be believe that they use such low hydrations. I'm at a loss here.

Baking time
Shorter bake time, more soft crust. This seems to be a simple truth, or...?

Dough handling
I have understood from many posts on this forum that handling the dough with grace is important to prevent toughening up the crust. I do believe this, but I am puzzled when I see Napoli pizzaioli pressing down with force, turning, twisting, slapping the dough around. Event pressing down on the cornicione area seems to be common. I understand that these guys are in a different league altogether, but still I wonder about this seeming contradiction.

Other factors
What other factors could help me tune my dough and process toward the my golden standard?

Arne
 :pizza:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: tinroofrusted on May 26, 2018, 09:59:35 AM
Very interesting post.  Do you know what flour Sorbillo uses? I'd use that flour, naturally leavened, with the lightest touch possible, and RT fermentation.  In other words, what you are already doing for the most part! 

Also read Omid's treatise here on PM.com,  A Philosophy of Neapolitan Pizza.  That helps with the right frame of mind to get to perfection. 

Good luck, and keep posting.  It's good reading!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on May 26, 2018, 10:26:56 AM
I like the way you think, Arne. The dough can make a huge difference in a pizza. The best pies I've made has had incredibly tasteful dough. My experience with sourdough is that 48 hour taste better than 24 hour, but that might also be for other reasons, like timing of fermentation.

Here's a video I found about Sorbillo, but it's from 2013, so I don't know if they do it the same way today. I'll keep an eye on this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAcmLhrOEG4
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: jsaras on May 26, 2018, 10:45:11 AM
Upon returning from a four-day trip to Naples (Italy) this spring, I came home with a very clear idea of what my ideal pizza dough is. In one word: Sorbillo.  :drool:

I visited a lot of excellent pizzerias, and I ate a lot of excellent Margherita. They all had something special to them, but Sorbillo's dough was so so good, I was close to tears. In a nutshell, the crust is so soft, delicate and flavourful that it takes almost no effort to bite through the puffy cornicione. That's what I want.

How to get there?  ???

Here are some factors that I believe can be manipulated in order to achieve my goal:

Mixing process
I am currently using Craig's process as he has described it in detail in his sticky. I get good results, yet perhaps there are things I could do to get a softer, lighter crumb? Icelandr recently reminded me of capturing air through stretch and folds. What other factors might I consider focusing on?

Maturation time
I started out making 48 hour RT doughs but have more or less standardized on 24 hour doughs for the past year. Seeming to remember that my cornicione of the past was fluffier, I have made som 48 hour batches recently in order to compare. Not sure that I see much of a difference, to be hones. Something else must give, or?

Type of yeast
Will a SD based dough produce a more tender crust than one made with IDY? It could be just in my head, but I remember a couple of years ago when I first started using the Ischia culture, the tenderness improved dramatically. This year, the culture appears to have weakened and is behaving unpredictably, so I have gone back to IDY for a couple of batches. Suddenly the crust was less tender than before. Is this a thing, or all in my head?

Hydration percentage
I admin it: I'm chasing the high of hydration percentages. From starting out with Craig's 62.5%, I have been pushing it gradually up to about 67% now (Caputo Pizzeria BTW). In my mind, this has made for softer and more delicate crust, which is the direction I want (unfortunately, more difficult to handle dough goes with the territory I guess). Drooling over Sauzer's pizzas has confirmed this to me. However, I have started to wonder... Craig's pies look amazing, and from what I have gathered, even at Sorbillo they use relatively low hydration (in the high 50s or possibly low 60s is what I think I have been told). Having seen the pizzaioli at Sorbillo handle the dough though, I just cannot for the life of be believe that they use such low hydrations. I'm at a loss here.

Baking time
Shorter bake time, more soft crust. This seems to be a simple truth, or...?

Dough handling
I have understood from many posts on this forum that handling the dough with grace is important to prevent toughening up the crust. I do believe this, but I am puzzled when I see Napoli pizzaioli pressing down with force, turning, twisting, slapping the dough around. Event pressing down on the cornicione area seems to be common. I understand that these guys are in a different league altogether, but still I wonder about this seeming contradiction.

Other factors
What other factors could help me tune my dough and process toward the my golden standard?

Arne
 :pizza:

I'll only have a day in Naples next month.  Other than Sorbillo's what were your other favorites? 
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 26, 2018, 02:14:27 PM
Maturation time
I started out making 48 hour RT doughs but have more or less standardized on 24 hour doughs for the past year. Seeming to remember that my cornicione of the past was fluffier, I have made som 48 hour batches recently in order to compare. Not sure that I see much of a difference, to be hones. Something else must give, or?

Baking time
Shorter bake time, more soft crust. This seems to be a simple truth, or...?

IMO, these are the big two - not so much the amount of time, but that the dough is properly fermented. Notwithstanding, by far the most important factor is bake temp/time. My best pies are 45-55 seconds.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: jeffereynelson on May 26, 2018, 02:50:34 PM
I'll only have a day in Naples next month.  Other than Sorbillo's what were your other favorites?

Hey I’ll acually be in Naples for a day next month too. Any chance you will be there June 8th?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 26, 2018, 03:30:14 PM
Do you know what flour Sorbillo uses?

No, not sure about that one.

Also read Omid's treatise here on PM.com,  A Philosophy of Neapolitan Pizza.  That helps with the right frame of mind to get to perfection. 

Thanks, yes I agree that is a great thread. I've read it through once before and I am actually re-reading it this year. It takes a lot of time, but it is jam packed with great information and lots of inspiration.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 26, 2018, 03:30:51 PM
I like the way you think, Arne. The dough can make a huge difference in a pizza. The best pies I've made has had incredibly tasteful dough. My experience with sourdough is that 48 hour taste better than 24 hour, but that might also be for other reasons, like timing of fermentation.

Here's a video I found about Sorbillo, but it's from 2013, so I don't know if they do it the same way today. I'll keep an eye on this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAcmLhrOEG4

Thank's for the video!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 26, 2018, 03:41:43 PM
I'll only have a day in Naples next month.  Other than Sorbillo's what were your other favorites?

A quick rundown of the places I visited:

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 26, 2018, 03:43:51 PM
IMO, these are the big two - not so much the amount of time, but that the dough is properly fermented. Notwithstanding, by far the most important factor is bake temp/time. My best pies are 45-55 seconds.

Since one of your earlier comments about the 45 second bake, I've noticed this too. The crust really toughens up when I reach the "golden 90 second standard" at my temps.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: jsaras on May 26, 2018, 03:47:25 PM
Hey I’ll acually be in Naples for a day next month too. Any chance you will be there June 8th?

No.  Late June into early July.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: jeffereynelson on May 26, 2018, 09:40:59 PM
A quick rundown of the places I visited:

  • Antica Pizzeria Port'Alba: Pizza a portafoglio, it was nice but I believe I'd have been better of dining in.
  • Trianon da Ciro: Tasty margherita, but pales compared to the next places.
  • Sorbillo: Pizza perfection!
  • Da Michele: Having received mixed reviews, I was delighted to be served a fragrant, soft, and completely delicious margherita. Best tomato sauce of the bunch this trip.
  • Pepe in Grani: Great pizzas, I had three. The margherita was a looker (and yes, it was great tasting). The Scarpetta was to die for! (I've since attempted my own interpretation back home with some success). I can't remember the third.
  • Carlo Sammarco Pizzeria 2.0: Carlo and his staff were so welcomming, this visit was one to remember. Excellent pies, the Dan Antonio was amazing-
  • 50 Kalò: Ciro Salvo is one of my personal heroes, and he served up a great margherita. Maybe I was a bit in pizza-coma, but I remember that I had wished for more...
  • Dal Presidente: It was ok.

Those places are really all over. How did you get around to those places?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: pizzadaheim on May 27, 2018, 01:16:17 AM

I admin it: I'm chasing the high of hydration percentages. From starting out with Craig's 62.5%, I have been pushing it gradually up to about 67% now (Caputo Pizzeria BTW). In my mind, this has made for softer and more delicate crust, which is the direction I want (unfortunately, more difficult to handle dough goes with the territory I guess). Drooling over Sauzer's pizzas has confirmed this to me. However, I have started to wonder... Craig's pies look amazing, and from what I have gathered, even at Sorbillo they use relatively low hydration (in the high 50s or possibly low 60s is what I think I have been told). Having seen the pizzaioli at Sorbillo handle the dough though, I just cannot for the life of be believe that they use such low hydrations. I'm at a loss here.

Baking time
Shorter bake time, more soft crust. This seems to be a simple truth, or...?

Dough handling
I have understood from many posts on this forum that handling the dough with grace is important to prevent toughening up the crust. I do believe this, but I am puzzled when I see Napoli pizzaioli pressing down with force, turning, twisting, slapping the dough around. Event pressing down on the cornicione area seems to be common. I understand that these guys are in a different league altogether, but still I wonder about this seeming contradiction.

Other factors
What other factors could help me tune my dough and process toward the my golden standard?

Arne
 :pizza:

I ate at Sorbillo as well. He uses " Tipo 0 biologica and integrale bio"

I dont think he uses low hydro. His dough is very soft. Its cause of he uses high hydro and very hot oven. My opinion is %68/70

He makes 800/1000 pizza daily which means he has not much time for fermentation and preparing the dough for the next days work. I think he uses just 16/24 hours fermentation time at RT

I saw how his pizzaiolos handling the dough. In my opinion there is only one way to handle the high hydro dough like this ; they keep long bulk fermentation and keep second fermentation short. 3/5 hours. I tested it in my pizzeria too. Even with very well fermented %70hydro panetti i can slap and push hard cause they are not too relaxed.

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 27, 2018, 03:26:55 AM
Those places are really all over. How did you get around to those places?

We lived just aound the corder from Duomo di Napoli (Cattedrale di Santa Maria Assunta), so most of the places we visited were in walking distance from here. But you are right: There was also some "serious travelling" involved.  :-D

We took the metro to 50 Kalò, this was quick and easy. It's not that far.

We took the train to Caiazzo to visit Pepe in Grani. The train journey was smooth, though a bit lengthy. I think about 1,5-2 hours. The bigger problem was getting back after dinner, as there was no train service from Caiazzo to Naples after about 7 o'clock in the evening. Also, there are not taxies there. We were at a loss for a while. But with the kind assistance of Pepe's crew, we secured private transportation to Caserta where the trains still operated. Next time, I will rent a car or stay for lunch instead of dinner.

We had planned our trip to Carlo Sammarco Pizzeria 2.0 by bus. This is a long and (in retrospect) funny story, but the short of it includes heavy rain, hours of waiting at an abandoned bus-stop, plenty of transfers, three soaking wet pizza-tourists and a final bus transfer that never came and nobody seemed to even have heard of. In the end, we caved and ordered a taxi to take us there and back. A bad start, but completely worth it after the hospitality, friendliness and generosity at Sammarco. Salvatore, the taxi driver, was also a really nice and chatty guy that made the final stretch a blast (we fed him pizza and coffee while he waited outside) :chef:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 27, 2018, 03:32:30 AM
I ate at Sorbillo as well. He uses " Tipo 0 biologica and integrale bio"

I dont think he uses low hydro. His dough is very soft. Its cause of he uses high hydro and very hot oven. My opinion is %68/70

He makes 800/1000 pizza daily which means he has not much time for fermentation and preparing the dough for the next days work. I think he uses just 16/24 hours fermentation time at RT

I saw how his pizzaiolos handling the dough. In my opinion there is only one way to handle the high hydro dough like this ; they keep long bulk fermentation and keep second fermentation short. 3/5 hours. I tested it in my pizzeria too. Even with very well fermented %70hydro panetti i can slap and push hard cause they are not too relaxed.

Wow! This is excellent insight, than you so much for sharing.  :chef:

I am both happy and completely horrified to see my suspicions about high hydration confirmed. Now I know I "must" keep pushing the hydration limits.

You tip about shorter time in balls seems solid to me. It just makes sense, now that you said it. I will definitely try this soon!

I am all gitty now!  :-D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on May 27, 2018, 06:51:34 AM
When chasing higher hydration, keep in mind that different flours can handle different hydration rates. Even if you get the same brand as Sorbillo uses, your bag might have higher hydration in the bag and handle less added water.

When handling high HR doughs, you might find it advantageous to ferment the doughs on wood and to open the skins at a lower temperature than RT (24C). It's at least by experience that a cooler dough handled easier. Another factor is when you ball or reball during fermentation.

What temperatures do you need to achieve a 45 second bake time?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 27, 2018, 07:41:56 AM
What temperatures do you need to achieve a 45 second bake time?

It depends on your oven itself, how well it's preheated, the fire, and how you measure the temperature. In my Acunto, the deck will be ~ 875F and the walls farthest from the fire will be 975F.  In my Pizza Party, the deck is around 915F.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 27, 2018, 08:50:40 AM
When chasing higher hydration, keep in mind that different flours can handle different hydration rates. Even if you get the same brand as Sorbillo uses, your bag might have higher hydration in the bag and handle less added water.

When handling high HR doughs, you might find it advantageous to ferment the doughs on wood and to open the skins at a lower temperature than RT (24C). It's at least by experience that a cooler dough handled easier. Another factor is when you ball or reball during fermentation.

What temperatures do you need to achieve a 45 second bake time?

Good point. I've been using Caputo pizzeria more or less exclusively for a few years, and to keep track of what variables affect what I am planning on sticking to this for now. Though I would be excited to try other flours further down the road.

I started out fermenting in plastic containers but last year I switched to wooden boxes. It does help with high hydration doughs as the bottom dries out slightly. As for the opening temperature, I have little control as I always make pizza outside. :-)

Today I am going to make a two small test batches, both with 68% hydration (pushing 1 past my current maximum). I'll ferment them both for 24 hours, but one with my regular 12+12 regime and the other one I'll do 20+4. This should be fun.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on May 27, 2018, 08:54:49 AM
I started out fermenting in plastic containers but last year I switched to wooden boxes. It does help with high hydration doughs as the bottom dries out slightly. As for the opening temperature, I have little control as I always make pizza outside. :-)

Today I am going to make a two small test batches, both with 68% hydration (pushing 1 past my current maximum). I'll ferment them both for 24 hours, but one with my regular 12+12 regime and the other one I'll do 20+4. This should be fun.
I didn't mean the ambient temperature, but the temperature of the doughs when you open them.

I've had some trouble with doughs being too relaxed when opening them, and my recent doughs seem to indicate that a dough around 15C opened better and even with a pretty well fermented dough (possibly overfermented), a balling 12 hours before baking makes it handle better than 48 hours straight in balls.

Looking forward to see the results from your test. What oven do you have and at what temperature?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 27, 2018, 08:55:11 AM
It depends on your oven itself, how well it's preheated, the fire, and how you measure the temperature. In my Acunto, the deck will be ~ 875F and the walls farthest from the fire will be 975F.  In my Pizza Party, the deck is around 915F.

Nice, seem I'm in the same ballpark in my WFO, possibly slightly cooler. I've noticed I like the results best when I boost the fire quite a bit just before the pizza goes in. I guess I should up my overall temperature slightly.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 27, 2018, 09:06:51 AM
I didn't mean the ambient temperature, but the temperature of the doughs when you open them.

Ah, gotcha! Thanks.

Looking forward to see the results from your test. What oven do you have and at what temperature?

I have a Vesuvio FVR100. Here she is when I fired her up for the first time this sping (a little sooty from last years run, but she's all cleaned up again now).
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 28, 2018, 09:19:28 AM
As I strive to make NP pizza with a dough/crust that more closely resembles what I (from my current point of view) consider the golden standard for Pizza Napolitana (read: Sorbillo), I designed a small experiment that hopefully can give me some concrete pointers going forward.

This particular experiment was inspired by feedback from pizzadaheim a few posts back. In addition, I aim to control the oven temperature to match as closely as possible the temperatures reported by Craig for his 45 second bakes.

Main Purpose
Evaluate how the time in balls affects handling of a high hydration dough.

Secondary Purpose
Try to determine whether a dough of higher hydration than previously attempted takes me closer to the pillowy dreaminess of the Sorbillo experience.  :drool:

Recipe
The recipe assumes 24 hour fermentation @ 23 C, which is the ambient temperature in my house these days (unusually warm for this time of the year in Norway, by the way). I always use Craig’s chart to determine the SD amount. This year my culture has been rather weak so I opted to double the predicted amount, which is about the average compensation factor needed the last few bakes.

The ingredients, then:

Procedure

Setup
Prepare two identical doughs, A and B.

I’ll report back with results shortly.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: pizzadaheim on May 28, 2018, 10:29:23 AM
Keep your eyes on dough balls. Its very hot. Maybe you dont have to wait 4 hours. Give it a try after 3 hours
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 28, 2018, 01:44:43 PM
Keep your eyes on dough balls. Its very hot. Maybe you dont have to wait 4 hours. Give it a try after 3 hours

True words! :chef:

As planned, dough A was balled after 12 hours of bulk fermentation. At this point, there was little or no visible raise. About 16 hours into the fermentation, it became clear that this dough would be ready earlier than scheduled, so I decided to ball dough B at the 17 hour mark, expecting them both to be ready about 4 hours later. After 3.5 hours, I decided it was good to go.

Thus, the final fermentation schedules were:

Temperature measurements before the first pizza was launched showed:

The Bake
I already have some experience with 67% hydration, and it is a challenge to me. When deciding on 68% for this experiment, I was prepared for the worst. And during balling, I did experience the wettest, stickiest balls to date. I was stubbornly holding back on the bench flour, though, to prevent “negative hydration creep”.

When it came time to stretch the dough, I dumped the first ball (from batch A) into a heap of flour and flipped it gently to insure a (hopefully) thin protective layer of flour. Pressing down on it and starting to form it, I noticed it was soft, yet firm, not at all as fragile as I had expected it to be. I must have done "something" right this time around: This dough was easier to work with than any of my previous 67% batches!  ??? (I made only two balls per batch this time, normally I never go below 6 -- perhaps my workflow coincidentally is a better match for this smaller batch size?)

Anyway. I had no problems stretching, dressing, launching and finishing batch A. I’ll include some details and pictures in a later post.

Batch B, the one with only 3.5 hours in balls, was in many regards similar to batch A, i.e. it was soft and delicate. And while batch A was by no means fragile, it did require a gentle touch. Dough B was noticeably firmer, and just as pizzadaheim said, it responded well to some slapping around. Which is great, because I need to get that excess flour off somehow!

While I had been expecting this, I was apparently not prepared for the level of handling this dough could endure. I am used to applying the softest of touches, which actually made the first pizza I made with dough B too small and not thin enough.

The second B-pie was better as I quickly, and might I add happily, caught up with the situation.  ;D

Interpretation
With respect to the stated main purpose of this experiment, evaluating how the time in balls affects handling of a high hydration dough, it is pretty clear to me that this particular high hydration dough was much easier to handle when it was cooked a short time after balling. Clearly this is not news to this forum, but at least now I’ve learned it first hand. That was great! :)

I just came to remember an old post where Schold (i think) suggested that shorter time in balls also helps grow the cornicione. I think I noticed this as well in this case. I’m not claiming that it certainly did, as there may be variations in my stretching, temperature fluctuations and possibly other factors that play a part. But the cornicione of the B-batch pizzas did come out noticeably bigger and fluffier than the A-batch pizzas, so I find it plausible.

The "secondary purpose" of this experiment was to try and determine whether a dough of higher hydration than my previous attempts would take me closer to the pillowy dreaminess of the Sorbillo experience.

It sure did!

Wow. 1% made a world of difference. I’m hooked. I'll stick with 68% for a while now. My next pizza party is coming up this Saturday, and I will repeat this dough and see if I can repeat the success too.

Thanks for all the tips and help you all have graciously provided, I’m stoked by what I have learned from this exchange already.

I’ll add some more photos shortly.

Arne
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: jvp123 on May 28, 2018, 01:46:52 PM
True words! :chef:

As planned, dough A was balled after 12 hours of bulk fermentation. At this point, there was little or no visible raise. About 16 hours into the fermentation, it became clear that this dough would be ready earlier than scheduled, so I decided to ball dough B at the 17 hour mark, expecting them both to be ready about 4 hours later. After 3.5 hours, I decided it was good to go.

Thus, the final fermentation schedules were:
  • Dough A: 12+8.5 hours
  • Dough B: 17+3.5 hours

Temperature measurements before the first pizza was launched showed:
  • Deck: 448 C (= 838 F)
  • Wall farthest from the fire: 541 C (=1006 F)

The Bake
I already have some experience with 67% hydration, and it is a challenge to me. When deciding on 68% for this experiment, I was prepared for the worst. And during balling, I did experience the wettest, stickiest balls to date. I was stubbornly holding back on the bench flour, though, to prevent “negative hydration creep”.

When it came time to stretch the dough, I dumped the first ball (from batch A) into a heap of dough and flipped it gently so insure a (hopefully) thin protective layer of flour. Pressing down on it and starting to form it, I noticed it was soft, yet firm, not at all as fragile as I had expected it to be. I must have done "something" right this time around: This dough was easier to work with than any of my previous 67% batches!  ??? (I made only two balls per batch this time, normally I never go below 6 -- perhaps my workflow coincidentally is a better match for this smaller batch size?)

Anyway. I had no problems stretching, dressing, launching and finishing batch A. I’ll include some details and pictures in a later post.

Batch B, the one with only 3.5 hours in balls, was in many regards similar to batch A, i.e. it was soft and delicate. And while batch A was by no means fragile, it did require a gentle touch. Dough B was noticeably firmer, and just as pizzadaheim said, it responded well to some slapping around. Which is great, because I need to get that excess flour off somehow!

While I had been expecting this, I was apparently not prepared for the level of handling this dough could endure. I am used to applying the softest of touches, which actually made the first pizza I made with dough B too small and not thin enough.

The second B-pie was better as I quickly, and might I add happily, caught up with the situation.  ;D

Interpretation
With respect to the stated main purpose of this experiment, evaluating how the time in balls affects handling of a high hydration dough, it is pretty clear to me that this particular high hydration dough was much easier to handle when it was cooked a short time after balling. Clearly this is not news to this forum, but at least now I’ve learned it first hand. That was great! :)

I just came to remember an old post where Schold (i think) suggested that shorter time in balls also helps grow the cornicione. I think I noticed this as well in this case. I’m not claiming that it certainly did, as there may be variations in my stretching, temperature fluctuations and possibly other factors that play a part. But the cornicione of the B-batch pizzas did come out noticeably bigger and fluffier than the A-batch pizzas, so I find it plausible.

The "secondary purpose" of this experiment was to try and determine whether a dough of higher hydration than my previous attempts would take me closer to the pillowy dreaminess of the Sorbillo experience.

It sure did!

Wow. 1% made a world of difference. I’m hooked. I'll stick with 68% for a while now. My next pizza party is coming up this Saturday, and I will repeat this dough and see if I can repeat the success too.

Thanks for all the tips and help you all have graciously provided, I’m stoked by what I have learned from this exchange already.

I’ll add some more photos shortly.

Arne

Pretty pies!  :chef:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 28, 2018, 01:53:31 PM
Here are some photos from today's session. The pizzas were all much more tender than I am used to.  :drool:

Dough A
The first three pictures below are made from dough A. The first one was cooked for 56 seconds, the second one for 53 seconds.

Dough B
The final 4 pictures are made from dough B, 45 and 60 seconds respectively.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: pizzadaheim on May 28, 2018, 02:02:50 PM
Looks great. Another tip if you want to clone sorbillo pizza. Open your dough balls 30cm. After topping pull it to the peel and stretch it to 35cm. I noticed at sorbillo that they dont care about big puffy cornicione.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on May 28, 2018, 02:10:25 PM
Great looking pies! I plan to experiment with higher hydration myself, so these are interesting to read.

You mentioned the consistency and fluffiness, but what about flavor? Did you notice any difference compared to your usual crust? Hydration makes a difference on texture, but for flavor I guess fermentation schedule and baking matters more. You mentioned not noticing a difference between 24h and 48h before, but it might be worth a few more attempts, if it fits your schedule.

When it comes to the time of balling, am I correct to assume that the fermentation schedule matters here? That you could do a shorter time in balls with a 24h dough than 48h since there's less yeast/starter in a 48h dough and more will happen over 4 hours in a 24h dough. I've often seen 8-12 hours mentioned from people using 48h doughs, and some not wanting it to be shorter than 8 hours. Could that mean a 4 hour balling stage with a 24h dough would be a good time and be somewhat in the same area as 8 hours for 48h dough?

How do you handle the dough when balling from bulk? Do you cut off a piece and gently ball it together, or do you knead it, fold it or stretch it in some way?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 29, 2018, 12:59:45 AM
Pretty pies!  :chef:

Thank you very much. :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 29, 2018, 01:07:57 AM
Looks great. Another tip if you want to clone sorbillo pizza. Open your dough balls 30cm. After topping pull it to the peel and stretch it to 35cm. I noticed at sorbillo that they dont care about big puffy cornicione.

Thanks. :) Great tip!

I must confess that I have developed a thing for big puffy corniciones recently. That was another takeaway from my trip, actually: I want to work on my cornicione. I had expected Carlo Sammarco to deliver fat tires, but actually Pepe one-upped Sammarco! At Pepe's, the cornicione was probably 4-5 cm i diameter, it was huge! The Sammarco pizzas we had were actually not as exaggerated as the ones I've seen online. Perhaps we were early and the dough was not 100% ready, idk...
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 29, 2018, 01:31:11 AM
You mentioned the consistency and fluffiness, but what about flavor? Did you notice any difference compared to your usual crust? Hydration makes a difference on texture, but for flavor I guess fermentation schedule and baking matters more. You mentioned not noticing a difference between 24h and 48h before, but it might be worth a few more attempts, if it fits your schedule.

I may have focused a bit too one-sidedly on the consistency in this thread. Perhaps that's because I usually think the flavour of the crust is very good. I prefer the taste of SD to the taste of IDY, and I notice that 48 hours fermentation produces more/fuller flavour than does 24 hours. (I am not sure I see any difference in the consistency of the resulting pizza however). However, when I do long fermentations (48 hours), it sometimes ends up a little too tangy for my taste.

Speaking of taste and smell: One of my favourite moments when making pizza is the scent that emanates from the oven during the bake of the first few pizzas. Before my brain has adapted and ignore the scents, I notice this... I don't have the English vocabulary to express this properly, but I get this very fragrant, smokey, slightly charred scent that goes straight to the happiness center of my brain.  :D
 
I had to wiggle a bit before settling on 2.8% salt, as not everybody in the household agree on this variable. :-D

Even more than the taste of the crust itself, I have been focusing on the taste of the topping ingredients, especially the tomatoes. I have a long way to go to perfect this part of the pizza as well. But I guess that's a different story. :)


When it comes to the time of balling, am I correct to assume that the fermentation schedule matters here? That you could do a shorter time in balls with a 24h dough than 48h since there's less yeast/starter in a 48h dough and more will happen over 4 hours in a 24h dough. I've often seen 8-12 hours mentioned from people using 48h doughs, and some not wanting it to be shorter than 8 hours. Could that mean a 4 hour balling stage with a 24h dough would be a good time and be somewhat in the same area as 8 hours for 48h dough?

Before my last experiment, I had never gone below 8 hours in balls, and that was for a 24 hour dough. I too have had the impression that 8 hours was needed to get more relaxation. I have also been wary of balling the dough after a considerable rise, because I though that might expel precious air. I may need to rethink this.

Edit: Sorry I don't think I answered your actual questions. At this point I think that it is possible to do short time in balls no matter the total length of the fermentation. Given that you start with less yeast/culture the longer the fermentation, I would speculate that the last 4 hours of a 24 hour dough might be roughly equivalent to the last 4 hours of a 48 hour dough. In some respects at least? But honestly, I do not know. I will keep testing things out, though. Meanwhile, perhaps someone more knowledgable can chime in. :)

How do you handle the dough when balling from bulk? Do you cut off a piece and gently ball it together, or do you knead it, fold it or stretch it in some way?

Yes, I cut it in 260 g pieces and ball it by folding it in on itself. I try to mimic what I see the pizzaioli of Naples do it. (The actual balling action i mean) In my mind, what I end up doing is probably an "in the air" stretch and fold until it firms up somewhat.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: deb415611 on May 29, 2018, 07:19:58 AM
very nice
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 29, 2018, 03:40:50 PM
very nice
Thank you, Deb! :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 03, 2018, 05:16:39 AM
The Success

The dough I made for my last test batch, detailed in reply 23 of this thread, was by far the best dough I had ever made -- especially with respect to tenderness and handling. When the balls were shaped into discs, it was as if the dough was guiding my hands and told them how to move. The transfer to the peel was effortless, as if the dough drove itself onto it. Out of the oven, it came super soft and tender, fragrant and flavorful.

Obviously, I set myself up for failure when I decided to repeat this exact same dough for yesterday’s pizza party.

The Failure

It was a horrible mess. This was a completely different experience, a sticky mess of epic proportions.

The first three pizzas tore apart completely on the way to the peel.

In a state of panic, I frantically drenched the bancone in flour. Now at least I was able to finish a few pies, but it was still a struggle. Lifting the dough, even before any flattening had been done, was nearly impossible without stretching it heavily in the process. The dough seemed to want to slip through my fingers and run away in all directions at once. Needless to say, I was not able to form them properly. They all ended up too thick, too small and too powdery-white from excess flour. But at least I managed to bake pizza with the remaining balls (save for one that failed during launch after a futile attempt at backing off the flour somewhat).

Elongated and completely bent out of shape, but pizza.

The Setup

Seriously, this dough come out from the fermentation pre-digested. And that is probably not far from the truth. For practical reasons, I had made some… erm… changes. It was a 48 hour dough @ 18 C controlled temp this time around. And it was an "undercover" split batch experiment.

My intention was to repeat the dough from reply 23 as best as I could, but where one batch (A) was made with SD starter fed 12 hours before the mixing, and another similar batch (B) made with the same amount of SD starter fed just 3 hours before the mixing. They would both be balled 4 hours before the bake.

I wanted to test this out because my SD culture is difficult to predict this year. Also, we are experiencing exceptionally hot weather here now. The kitchen, where I keep the starter, has been reaching 30 C during the hottest part of the day this past week. Perhaps I should feed it twice a day instead of just once, and so I thought I could test how that might affect the performance.

Oh, and one more thing. When making the dough for the B-batch, I stopped adding flour a little earlier than planned. The dough had just come together beautifully, and clearly I was a high hydration dough wizard, so no problems there. Batch B, therefore, ended up at 70.3% hydration. Genius!

The Fermentation

I do bulk fermentation in bowls wrapped in transparent cling film. In addition, I use a pluviometer to track the rise ("Spia di lievitazione” technique as explained in the book "Pizza Napolitana", I believe forum member Fagilia is one of the authors). This time around, I used a temperature controlled chest freezer to keep the temperature steady at the target temp. I’ve attached a photo of the setup below.

Unfortunately I was away for most of the fermentation, so I was not able to track and adjust along the way but had to rely on the SD calculations to be accurate. However, when I finally returned home, some 14 hours before the target bake time, it was almost ready to go! Below I attach two photos of the pluviometers as they were 14 hours before the pizza party. Batch A had reached the 25 mm mark, while Batch B was slower and had almost reached 21 mm. The typical range where I do my normal bakes is around 25-35 mm.

Of course, no guests had arrived yet. I was at a loss but lowered the temperature 1 C, crossed my fingers and went to bed.

The Lesson

Failing is humbling, which in itself is a good lesson.

Looking back at this experience, maybe there is more to learn.

First off, dough B was developing/rising slower than dough A. If this is purely a function of the time since feeding, then apparently the “hungrier” the culture, the faster the rise. Or it could just be that there were more yeast cells in the “A” culture than the “B” culture because of longer time exposed to food.

Whatever the reason, more interestingly and somewhat unexpectedly, the B-batch (at ~70% hydration) was easier to handle than the A-batch (at 68%). This took me by surprise, because I was sure that the wettest dough would be the most difficult to handle. While this may be true, all other things being equal, it was not true here. But then, all other things were not equal! Dough A was more overfermented than dough B.

In this case, then, perhaps a too long fermentation may actually have been the biggest problem, and not the hydration level.

The last picture attached below shows the pluviometers at the time of bake. They almost climbed out the top, this is way way too much rise.

The Plan
 
This has inspired me to conduct some more test with fermentation times. I’m thinking perhaps I should make a batch of dough, ball it, and then every hour take out one ball, shape it and evaluate its properties relative to the fermentation time and rise in the pluviometer. That would be a very interesting excercise I think.

I’ll follow up more on that later. Come Friday, I’ll have 30+ guests over for pizza, so I guess it’s back to the safe zone for a while now.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on June 03, 2018, 11:10:58 AM
Thank you for the continued experiments and descriptions! I hope I, too can learn from them, the previous set of pies looked incredible, apparently it is best at this point, to remember them, not the last batch.


I enjoy your thread, you are far more organized than I, perhaps wing it is spoken more frequently here on Gabriola.


From Paros island -Greg
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 03, 2018, 12:17:59 PM
Greg, thank you for your kind comments and encouragement. I appreciate it very much.

I guess I am rather organized and structured in how I approach pizzamaking. I like to think that it allows me to learn how the different variables affect the result. My wife likes to tease me for this. The precise measurements. The procedure. The detailed logs. When she cooks or bakes, it is almost always by feel. (And she usually nails it.)

For all my systematic ways, though, I am more than capable of making a chaos come bake time.  :-D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 11, 2018, 11:32:48 AM
The dough I made for the first experiment I documented in this thread turned out wonderful! In fact: My best dough. Ever.

Sadly, I have not been able to reproduce it since.  :(

Said experiment was primarily designed to learn first hand what effect shorter time in balls had on the handling properties of the dough. The main finding was that shorter time in balls resulted in a more elastic dough. This is in line with what others have reported, and still seems to hold to me. However, I may have drawn some more questionable conclusions.

For example, I speculated that the hydration level (68%, up from my usual 65-67%) might be responsible for the perfect handling properties I experienced. I no longer believe this to be the case. I have repeated the exact same recipe a few times, and it behaves more like the typical dough I make. Nothing special.

Perhaps the dough mixing procedure was more optimal than usual, I speculated further. I am still open to this possibility.

However, there is another and perhaps more important factor: Fermentation. Perhaps the fermentation was just right. Could it be that I happened to hit the nail on the head and start baking at the perfect time -- when the dough had reached perfect maturation?

The following experiment was performed in an attempt to answer this last question.

Purpose
A subjective evaluation of how the "handling properties" of the same dough changes during the course of fermentation/maturation. When is it at its optimal, and what does that mean?

By "handling properties" I mean how the dough ball reacts to shaping, stretching and dragging to the peel (primarily dough strength I guess).

Recipe
Caputo Pizzeria (100%)
Water (68%)
SD (3,0%)
Salt (2,8%)

Ferment at stable ambient temperature, 23 C. 11 hours in bulk, the remaining time in balls (see below).

Procedure
Same dough making procedure as the one documented in reply 21 in this thread.

Experimental setup
Let the dough ferment in bulk for 11 hours. Then ball and let rest for 7 hours. At the 18 hour mark, perform the following steps:


Repeat the steps above once every hour until not able to continue.

I was not able to bake these pies, unfortunately, so oven performance and taste is not part of the evaluation.


Results
I took a total of six samples over a period of five hours (from the 18 hour mark up until the 23 hour mark).

In each case, the dough presented as quite soft, malleable and extensible. In addition, I noted the following:



Discussion

I thought I noticed that the dough gained strength the first 3-4 hours. This surprised me somewhat, until I remembered that I’ve read multiple times on this forum that long fermentations give strength to the dough. So one could argue it is bias. Real or not, that is what my notes say.

I also noticed that the dough lost strength during the last two hours. This did not surprise me, as I have some experience with severely over fermented dough (e.g. reply 33 of this thread).

Craigs SD table predicts 21 hours fermentation for 3% SD at 23 C. That’s pretty close to 22 hours, which is what I subjectively experienced as the optimal point in this case. I love that table!

Unfortunately: At no point during this experiment did I experience the "perfect consistency" that I reported on in reply 23. For now, therefore, I tentatively conclude that "optimal fermentation" was not the main cause for that particular success.


Final thoughts

I keep thinking about the mixing procedure, which I have suspected could be a big factor for a while. Perhaps I need to mix the dough in a more appropriate manner? My happy coincidence of a perfect dough (reply 23) felt considerably more voluminous than this dough at the same weight (260 grams). Could it be that I had more air trapped inside, perhaps?

The investigation continues...
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on June 11, 2018, 03:32:14 PM
YIKES!
Keep that up! It reminds me of Omid, and his continual research, of course well documented . . . Regrettably we random abstract learn differently in surprising ways . . . “Oh, look, it worked!” I’ll do that again!
I enjoy the thread and will maliciously steal your ideas when I get back!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: robvst1987 on June 12, 2018, 04:46:47 AM
Nice work and very very interesting!

I was wondering how they manage to do the short time in balls at sorbillo (or other restaurant), if they ball there dough they don't know when they are going to bake it..

Also the slap and fold part, for them it's not possible to do this because there batches are to big and I think they don't have the time for it.

Have you ever tried to work with autolyse? I think the key of a good dough is in there.. I've seen a lot of video's of Carlo Sammarco,  Vincenzo Onnembo they al work with autolyse or a preferment. On PM I've seen also beautiful result with it (Gsans and Dacamo).
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: DannyG on June 12, 2018, 08:39:01 AM
I did a search for "sorbillo dough recipe" and found two recipes.

The first showed 1 liter of water for 1850 grams of flour. This is 54% using a kg (1,000 grams) as a weight for 1 liter of water.
http://www.lucianopignataro.com/articolo.php?pl=4572

The second was 300 grams water for 500 grams of flour. This is 60%.
http://buonappetitoolandablog.blogspot.com/2013/02/how-to-make-pizza-recipe-from-gino.html

I have never been successful with high hydration doughs (over 62%) as they are way too hard to handle for me.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 12, 2018, 12:26:11 PM


I enjoy the thread and will maliciously steal your ideas when I get back!

Sounds good! Looking forward to it. :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 12, 2018, 12:31:59 PM
Hi!

Also the slap and fold part, for them it's not possible to do this because there batches are to big and I think they don't have the time for it.

Not sure if I understand you correctly, but do you mean to say they don't stretch and fold after mixing? If so I guess you're right.

Have you ever tried to work with autolyse? I think the key of a good dough is in there.. I've seen a lot of video's of Carlo Sammarco,  Vincenzo Onnembo they al work with autolyse or a preferment. On PM I've seen also beautiful result with it (Gsans and Dacamo).

Not really, all I've done are some preliminary tests. They seem to indicate that autolyse strengthens the dough considerably. This is something I'll be testing out more for sure!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 12, 2018, 12:37:44 PM
I did a search for "sorbillo dough recipe" and found two recipes.

The first showed 1 liter of water for 1850 grams of flour. This is 54% using a kg (1,000 grams) as a weight for 1 liter of water.
http://www.lucianopignataro.com/articolo.php?pl=4572

The second was 300 grams water for 500 grams of flour. This is 60%.
http://buonappetitoolandablog.blogspot.com/2013/02/how-to-make-pizza-recipe-from-gino.html


Thanks for the links!

Yeah, that is pretty much the same I've found too when googling for that recipe. However I am not so sure this is the actual recipe that they use, and  pizzadaheim shared some insight previously in this thread that supports a "higher hydration hypothesis". :-D

Perhaps the published ones are adapted for "home use" or something? Idk. Having seen the dough "live", at least, it really does appear much wetter than that.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on June 13, 2018, 06:55:20 AM
You might find more results if you Google in Italian. I found this video when searching for "impasto pizza sorbillo":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40P2tFWjMg0

I don't know Italian, so I can't tell what's said in the video though.

The difference you found in their dough might also come from other various factors, including ingredients, fermentation, oven temp etc.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 13, 2018, 09:47:27 AM
Heikjo, Thanks for sharing!

The video starts out by Gino saying: "Per fare un impasto per la pizza tipica napolitana noi ce la portiamo sempre al'acqua. Partendo con un litro di acqua noi mettiamo circa un chilo e sette, un chilo sette chinquanta di farina 00."

Basically, start with one liter of water and add 1700-1750 grams of 00-flour. Which translates to about 58% hydration.

Like you say, there are lots of factors indeed!  :-D  I'll try to eat this elephant one piece at a time. Although I wish I could experiment with the mixing procedure, which I find myself think about more and more, I am not yet sure how to design an experiment for this. So next up for me I guess will be autolysis. That's a fun subject that seems to be at least a little controversial. :-)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 13, 2018, 09:57:29 AM
Have you ever tried to work with autolyse? I think the key of a good dough is in there.. I've seen a lot of video's of Carlo Sammarco,  Vincenzo Onnembo they al work with autolyse or a preferment. On PM I've seen also beautiful result with it (Gsans and Dacamo).

Thanks for bringing Gsans to my attention. Somehow I must have missed those posts.  ??? Beautiful pizza! And fun with autolysis.

I remember seeing the works of DaCaMo. Also stunning! But I think the most recent recipe there was super high hydration, like 75% iirc.

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 17, 2018, 12:03:59 PM
Recap & Review

I started this thread with one goal in mind: Figure out how to get the same tenderness in the crust that I experienced at Sorbillo. I proposed a number of possible factors and got some interesting feedback. Some experiments have been conducted, and although the first experiment somehow got me surprisingly close to the dough I am searching for, I cannot reproduce this and I have yet to understand precisely what happened there.

I guess I’m back to square one.  ???

The Hydration Hypothesis

I think high hydration is part of the equation, but I am far from sure of it. Though the mouth watering pies of Suzer, Antilife, Gsans and many others typically seem to be high hydration efforts, there are important exceptions. I keep coming back to Craigs pies at 62.5% hydration. They certainly look like what I think I’m after, and according to Craig himself they are tender as they come. And he is far from alone: Several users on this very forum swear by "AVPN style" dough at < 60% hydration and report excellent results, including tenderness. This makes me think twice about the importance of high hydration to achieve pillowy tenderness. But then again, I have not tasted these pizzas myself. Do we have the same reference point when we use the word "tenderness"? I am curious to know.  :chef:

The Fermentation Factor

I have run tests to see how a high hydration dough changes during fermentation. These tests were interesting. However, I found no clear indication that "perfect maturation" is the primary key to achieving my goal.  :-\

The Autolysis Advice

Autolysis has been discussed briefly, and I considered experimenting with this. However, realizing that autolysis was not a factor that one time when I came so close to my goal, I have decided to put the hydrolysis experiment plans on hold for a while.

Mixing Magic?

I now have a (vague) idea that I need to incorporate more air in the dough during mixing, and that I need to ensure that the gluten network is sufficiently developed to hold on to that air during fermentation.

Face Forward

This week-end I decided to run an experiment where I made three doughs:

Doughs A and B were mixed and prepared primarily with the aid of my Kenwood mixer (as described in reply 22). Dough C was mixed and kneaded by hand as best I can after techniques learned from various You Tube videos (with Roberto Caporuscio, Gino Sorbillo, Ciro Salvo and others).

All three doughs were otherwise identical: 2.8% salt, 6% SD, ferment at 20 C for 23 hours (16+7).

The purpose of the experiment was twofold:

Today’s Truth

I must confess that I may have been unrealistically ambitious when planning this experiment, considering that the pizzas would be cooked and served at one of the biggest pizza parties we are hosting this summer. I ended up spending a lot more time having fun with guests than I did collecting data. The quality of this experiment suffers from this fact, unfortunately. Sorry.

Final Fermentation

After fermenting for 23 hours, the pluviometers showed:
As previously discussed I prefer closer to around 30 mm, but since it would take me a few hours to bake the 36 doughs I had prepared, this seemed like the perfect time to kick things off.


Data Discussion
 
Dough A: It’s been a long time since I made a dough with just 63% water. It was great! From balling to baking, it felt great in my hands, and it was so easy to work with. Little or no need for bench flour, no fear of the tear, and all in all just a smooth experience. The balls felt a little smaller and more compact than the others. The taste was great though, and the cornicione was nice and puffy. The tenderness I’ll comment on below.

Dough B: Certainly a lot more difficult to handle than the A dough. But not problematically so. It was somewhat slacker and more fragile, but other than that, this is what I’m used to now, so I was fairly happy with it. The cornicione grew a little bigger than on the A pizzas, the pizza showed a little more… “visual flair”. Tenderness? Keep reading.

Dough C: Disappointingly similar to dough B. In fact, I could not tell them apart.

Tenderness… I would say that all three doughs were really very similar. None of them came even close to my own track record (you know the one…), not to mention Sorbillo. To put it another way, the were all on par with what I usually make. So I guess the hydration hypothesis is still inconclusive.

The mixing part of this experiment was a failure I guess. The hand made dough was practically identical with the Kenwood mixed one. Perhaps I'll find myself a spiral hook, I noticed heikjo mentioned this, and see if that makes a difference from the J hook that came with the machine...
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on June 17, 2018, 12:56:13 PM
Thank you for the informative post, AND the fact that fun at times interrupts science!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: marcus13668 on June 17, 2018, 02:09:26 PM
Very fun thread. Nice job!

3 more things i could think of.
Maybe they ferment at a higher temperature.
And also, what flour do you use? Doesnt sorbillo use caputo tipo 0 biologica?

I would also try 1 hour bulk and The rest in balls. Their dough looks very relaxed.

Regards from Sweden!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on June 17, 2018, 03:11:30 PM
Have you considered the baking as a factor? The Neapolitans bake very fast, and small changes in the baking process (time, temp, handling) can make significant results.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 17, 2018, 04:38:38 PM
Thank you for the informative post, AND the fact that fun at times interrupts science!
Aye point taken. I am obsessing over details but ultimately what makes me able to do so is the number of times we have people over for pizza and socializing. Pizzamaking can be "nerdy" but it is also the most social hoby I could hope for.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 17, 2018, 04:43:52 PM


Very fun thread. Nice job!

3 more things i could think of.
Maybe they ferment at a higher temperature.
And also, what flour do you use? Doesnt sorbillo use caputo tipo 0 biologica?

I would also try 1 hour bulk and The rest in balls. Their dough looks very relaxed.

Regards from Sweden!

Hey Marcus.

Thanks for pitching in. I like your suggestion about shorter time in balls. I have a fear that this will result in a very fragile dough, but how can I know untill I try it? Great idea, I'll do that and see.

About flour, I use Caputo Pizzeria. I have actually purchased 100 kg of the stuff this summer. I think I'll stick with that for now. :D It would be fun to switch it up though, and I just might next summer.

Fermentation temperature... Hm. Could be a factor indeed.....
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 17, 2018, 05:04:46 PM


Have you considered the baking as a factor? The Neapolitans bake very fast, and small changes in the baking process (time, temp, handling) can make significant results.

Heikjo, yeah,  that may be a good point. Looking back at the pictures from my one lucky break I do notice a lighter crust.

But there has to be more. The "thick feeling" I had back then was very special indeed. I don't know how to describe this. The dough looked (and felt I think) heavy somehow, maybe a bit like this one at around the 50 second mark: https://youtu.be/NckvE7XsEzY

Don't know if that makes any sense. I'll see if I can come up with a better reference.

By the way: What is your experience with the spiral hool vs the J hook on your Kenwood mixer? :)

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on June 18, 2018, 01:23:50 AM
By the way: What is your experience with the spiral hool vs the J hook on your Kenwood mixer? :)
The spiral hook (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=43529.msg440610#msg440610) did a better job than the J hook (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=43529.msg440187#msg440187) (links to videos). Since I usually make one or two doughs, they always stick a bit to the hook and didn't get kneaded quite as well as a larger batch. I expect the spiral hook would have been even better with a larger batch. Since starting with sourdough pizzas, I don't use the mixer anymore, but from the attempts I had I would definitely recommend the spiral hook.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Bill/SFNM on June 18, 2018, 11:23:38 AM
For years I have been chasing light, tender, fluffy crust - and one that stays that way even several minutes after baking. Due to all of the variables involved, every batch comes out differently and even every pizza within each batch is a little different. For the ingredients, procedure, and equipment I use, I can say unequivocally that the very best pizzas I make come from doughs that are 63%-66%+ hydration (I adjust with a spritzer as conditions warrant) and high deck temps (950F+). But there are other factors I think make an appreciable difference to achieve the optimal texture. This is what I've been doing lately with great results:

1) It is not just about final hydration. I think it does matter how the water is absorbed by the flour. I've adapted Marco's method of mixing the water and starter with 2/3 of the flour, allowing it to rest, and then adding the remaining flour and salt. It would seem that this shouldn't matter when doing long RT fermentation, but when I don't do it, the dough is not as tender.

2) I try to get as much air into the dough without overkneading (riposo step helps).

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 19, 2018, 02:56:43 PM
Bill, thank you for sharing this information. That is very interesting insight. I think I know what to try out next now... :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Bill/SFNM on June 19, 2018, 07:35:40 PM
Bill, thank you for sharing this information. That is very interesting insight. I think I know what to try out next now... :)

One other thought: avoid overbaking if you want soft crust. In my experience at high temps, if it looks done, it is probably overdone. As crust edges darken, they absorb even more radiant heat from the fire/coal bed and can quickly overbake. 
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: hotsawce on June 21, 2018, 10:05:15 AM
Bill, how much starter are you using? And is that hydration number including the starter or is it just the water and then whatever starter amount you add.

It's interesting you bring up Marco's mixing method - It's actually how Ciro Salvo mixes (I posted a video in another thread.)

For years I have been chasing light, tender, fluffy crust - and one that stays that way even several minutes after baking. Due to all of the variables involved, every batch comes out differently and even every pizza within each batch is a little different. For the ingredients, procedure, and equipment I use, I can say unequivocally that the very best pizzas I make come from doughs that are 63%-66%+ hydration (I adjust with a spritzer as conditions warrant) and high deck temps (950F+). But there are other factors I think make an appreciable difference to achieve the optimal texture. This is what I've been doing lately with great results:

1) It is not just about final hydration. I think it does matter how the water is absorbed by the flour. I've adapted Marco's method of mixing the water and starter with 2/3 of the flour, allowing it to rest, and then adding the remaining flour and salt. It would seem that this shouldn't matter when doing long RT fermentation, but when I don't do it, the dough is not as tender.

2) I try to get as much air into the dough without overkneading (riposo step helps).
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Bill/SFNM on June 21, 2018, 01:53:24 PM
Bill, how much starter are you using? And is that hydration number including the starter or is it just the water and then whatever starter amount you add.

It's interesting you bring up Marco's mixing method - It's actually how Ciro Salvo mixes (I posted a video in another thread.)

My bakers % calculations include water and flour in starter based on 100% starter hydration. I measure ingredients out for 62% total hydration, but that always increases with very liberal use of the spritzer throughout the process. I do live in a very dry climate. Maybe the two-step hydration/riposo workflow has something to do with damaged starch enzymatic degradation. Regardless, I'm convinced this procedure affects the tenderness of the final product.

Starter amount depends on which starter I'm using. For example, right now the Russian starter from sourdo.com is at bat. For pizza, it seems to prefer higher quantity at higher RT, for a shorter time than the others I use. So the batch I'm currently fermenting is at 8% starter, bulk ferment for 24 hours @ 70F. 
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: mrmafix on June 21, 2018, 05:24:35 PM


1) It is not just about final hydration. I think it does matter how the water is absorbed by the flour. I've adapted Marco's method of mixing the water and starter with 2/3 of the flour, allowing it to rest, and then adding the remaining flour and salt. It would seem that this shouldn't matter when doing long RT fermentation, but when I don't do it, the dough is not as tender.

2) I try to get as much air into the dough without overkneading (riposo step helps).

Bill,

Can you elaborate a bit more on the Marco method of mixing and why you use this method?  Thank you! 
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Bill/SFNM on June 21, 2018, 05:48:19 PM
This is not necessarily the exact method Marco recommended over 12 years ago, but at one point he described holding back some of the flour. Much of what I do these days is informed by tips from Marco when he was an active contributor. If he suggested an improvement, I would try it at the very least since I was flailing around trying anything and everything to improve my pizzas. It is a shame he deleted a bunch of his posts.

These days, my method of mixing using a fork mixer is:

1. Combine water and fully activated starter in bowl of mixer
2. Sift 2/3 of flour into bowl and combine until all flour is wet
3. Spritz and allow dough to rest for ~ 20 minutes
4. With mixer running, sift in remaining flour and salt
5. Knead for about a minute - less is more. I go by eye and feel
6. Spritz and allow to rest for ~20 minutes
7. Run the mixer for a few turns
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: mrmafix on June 21, 2018, 06:17:20 PM
This is not necessarily the exact method Marco recommended over 12 years ago, but at one point he described holding back some of the flour. Much of what I do these days is informed by tips from Marco when he was an active contributor. If he suggested an improvement, I would try it at the very least since I was flailing around trying anything and everything to improve my pizzas. It is a shame he deleted a bunch of his posts.

These days, my method of mixing using a fork mixer is:

1. Combine water and fully activated starter in bowl of mixer
2. Sift 2/3 of flour into bowl and combine until all flour is wet
3. Spritz and allow dough to rest for ~ 20 minutes
4. With mixer running, sift in remaining flour and salt
5. Knead for about a minute - less is more. I go by eye and feel
6. Spritz and allow to rest for ~20 minutes
7. Run the mixer for a few turns

Thank you!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: hotsawce on June 21, 2018, 07:55:43 PM
I'm surprised you can bulk ferment for so long at such a warm temperature with that amount of starter. It makes me want to give it a try.

My bakers % calculations include water and flour in starter based on 100% starter hydration. I measure ingredients out for 62% total hydration, but that always increases with very liberal use of the spritzer throughout the process. I do live in a very dry climate. Maybe the two-step hydration/riposo workflow has something to do with damaged starch enzymatic degradation. Regardless, I'm convinced this procedure affects the tenderness of the final product.

Starter amount depends on which starter I'm using. For example, right now the Russian starter from sourdo.com is at bat. For pizza, it seems to prefer higher quantity at higher RT, for a shorter time than the others I use. So the batch I'm currently fermenting is at 8% starter, bulk ferment for 24 hours @ 70F.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Bill/SFNM on June 21, 2018, 08:01:59 PM
I'm surprised you can bulk ferment for so long at such a warm temperature with that amount of starter. It makes me want to give it a try.

Do you have the Russian starter? FYI, salt is 3.0%.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: hotsawce on June 21, 2018, 08:50:31 PM
I have a starter I cultivated and an ischia. Are you seeing a lot of activity in your bulk when you ball?

I also like mixing the way you've described. I find I can get a smooth dough so long as I make sure everything is hydrated and I let it rest for a while.

Do you have the Russian starter? FYI, salt is 3.0%.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Bill/SFNM on June 21, 2018, 09:33:17 PM
I have a starter I cultivated and an ischia. Are you seeing a lot of activity in your bulk when you ball?

I also like mixing the way you've described. I find I can get a smooth dough so long as I make sure everything is hydrated and I let it rest for a while.

I omitted something important. Fermentation and proof last for 24 hours for doughs using the Russian starter. Fermentation is about 18 hours and proof is about 6 hours. The Russian starter is my most powerful - lots of volume expansion with a mild tang. I'll be making up a batch tomorrow to bake on Saturday. I'll see if I can capture some images or videos, but I've got a lot going on.   
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 22, 2018, 07:03:54 AM
Bill, what is the purpose of spritzing? Is it an alternative to covering the dough, as a measure against drying out? Or are you adjusting the hydration?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Bill/SFNM on June 22, 2018, 07:04:54 AM
Bill, what is the purpose of spritzing? Is it an alternative to covering the dough, as a measure against drying out? Or are you adjusting the hydration?

Yes.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 22, 2018, 07:05:38 AM
Yes, to all of the above? :-D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Bill/SFNM on June 22, 2018, 07:13:27 AM
Yes, to all of the above? :-D

Yes! But mostly #3.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 01, 2018, 03:39:46 PM
I've managed to get my hands on a Santos fork mixer, I am giddy and excited. After a few batches  it is clear that I need to learn to know this piece of machinery.

Working on that and reporting back soon. :-)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on July 01, 2018, 04:40:24 PM
Hi Arne, is that the same model as mentioned at some length in Omid’s Sticky topic above?
 Wow, twice a week, you either have more friends or family than I, or, like Omid, donate the products. It really helps with the progress I know, but with two oldies here once a week is all we can muster.
What is your latest deck temperature, I get very little colouring and the times seem longer than they should - 77 seconds last bake, suggested about 45 . . . .
Look forward to more pics and progress

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Bill/SFNM on July 01, 2018, 04:42:20 PM
I've managed to get my hands on a Santos fork mixer, I am giddy and excited. After a few batches  it is clear that I need to learn to know this piece of machinery.

Working on that and reporting back soon. :-)

Arne,

The Santos is a noble beast! It took me a while to learn how to tame it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfHPZkbQdJY
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 01, 2018, 05:23:21 PM
Thanks for the clip. I notice the rotational speed is markedly slower here where I am @ 50 Hz.

My experience so far is it is much easier to make a too strong a dough with the Santos than with my Kenwood (in fact I've never managed to make something too strong with the K).
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 06, 2018, 06:07:24 PM
A few weeks ago a Santos 18 fork mixer appeared on my doorstep. I am still getting to know this new piece of equipment. It’s certainly quite different from my trusty old Kenwood. Luckily, since a number of members here have had this mixer for several years, I’ve found a lot of useful info in the archives here to build on.

After a short exchange with Bill, I was curious to try out the effect of rest/riposo during mixing. So for yesterday’s pizza party I conducted the following experiment.

The Riposo Effect

Purpose: Evaluate the effect of rests during mixing.

The Dough

I prepared two doughs, A and B, that were identical in all respects except the mixing procedure:

Ingredients:

Mixing:
Both doughs were initially prepared as follows: Mix water + salt, then mix in SD, then add all the flour (minus 20 grams held back for use as bench flour). Then:

Dough A: Mix for 5 minutes uninterrupted. Rest 20 minutes. Shape to bulk ball and ferment.

Dough B: Mix for 3+1+1 minutes with 10 minute rests in between each step. Finally rest 10 minutes, shape to bulk ball and ferment.

Fermentation:
16 hours in bulk + 8 hours in balls @ 22 C.

Observations and results

During balling, both doughs were quite supple yet firm. Dough B seemed somewhat firmer/stronger that dough A.

After 24 hours of total fermentation, both doughs had reached 25 mm in the pluviometers. This is slightly less than my ideal but not too bad. Besides, our guests had arrived (with growling stomachs I could swear).

All in all I baked 16 pizzas. They were baked in the following order: A, A, B, B, A, A, B, B, …

While I was shaping the crust I was once again struck by the tendency of dough B to be somewhat stronger than dough A. The B variant was more firm to the touch, took a bit more effort to flatten, and it pulled back/shrank a bit more aggressively after shaping. The difference was slight but definitely noticeable.

Cooking time was always below 60 seconds, usually around 50. Oven temperature was measured to be relatively stable: Deck @ around 450 C, wall farthest from the fire @ ca 540 C.

Chewing on the finished pizzas revealed generally tender and tasty results. But again I was convinced that dough A was the lighter and less "chewy" of the two.

These are my very subjective observations. Since nobody else seemed to notice, I could very well be imagining things.

Discussion

I am still dialing in the proper mixing time for the Santos fork mixer. I started out with 10 minutes, which was way too much. Since then, I’ve gradually reduced the total mixing time. The 5 minutes I went for this time around seemed sufficient but perhaps still a little on the high end. I’ll keep reducing and see what happens (by the way, I am baffled at how very different the Santos dough is from the get go compared to my Kenwood doughs: The Santos dough seems so very strong/firm just moments after it has come together, while the Kenwood can actually run for 20+ minutes without getting even close).

More to the point for this experiment: It seems to me that that riposo steps/rests during mixing produces a stronger dough/less tender result than without such steps. This is perhaps contradictory to what others have experienced and reported, but it is in line with what I’ve experienced previously when attempting "modified autolysis" in previous (undocumented) experiments. Perhaps it is specific to my particular way of doing things, I don’t know. But for the most tender result, I am inclined to prefer the simple and direct mixing procedure that I used for dough A in this case.

Please float your theories or counter arguments if you have any. I am curious to know more.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 06, 2018, 06:25:13 PM


Hi Arne, is that the same model as mentioned at some length in Omid’s Sticky topic above?
 Wow, twice a week, you either have more friends or family than I, or, like Omid, donate the products. It really helps with the progress I know, but with two oldies here once a week is all we can muster.
What is your latest deck temperature, I get very little colouring and the times seem longer than they should - 77 seconds last bake, suggested about 45 . . . .
Look forward to more pics and progress

Hi Greg,

Sorry I must have missed your post.

Yes, it is the same model as Omids. I think it is identical, even though some years have passed. Being on European power, though, the rotation speed is ~20% slower than what he reported.

I am blessed with a big family and many dear friends and neighbors. When they are all full, we throw parties for our colleagues as well. It is such a blast in the summertime here in Lommedalen. :-)

I run around 450 C floor and 540 C dome temp. I also pre heat the oven for 2+ hours to fully saturate the walls. I think thats still a little short, as after about an hour of baking the oven feels better.

Arne.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Antilife on July 07, 2018, 07:36:16 AM
A few weeks ago a Santos 18 fork mixer appeared on my doorstep. I am still getting to know this new piece of equipment. It’s certainly quite different from my trusty old Kenwood. Luckily, since a number of members here have had this mixer for several years, I’ve found a lot of useful info in the archives here to build on.

After a short exchange with Bill, I was curious to try out the effect of rest/riposo during mixing. So for yesterday’s pizza party I conducted the following experiment.

The Riposo Effect

Purpose: Evaluate the effect of rests during mixing.

The Dough

I prepared two doughs, A and B, that were identical in all respects except the mixing procedure:

Ingredients:
  • Caputo Pizzeria (100%)
  • Water (65%)
  • SD (2.4%)
  • Salt (2.8%)

Mixing:
Both doughs were initially prepared as follows: Mix water + salt, then mix in SD, then add all the flour (minus 20 grams held back for use as bench flour). Then:

Dough A: Mix for 5 minutes uninterrupted. Rest 20 minutes. Shape to bulk ball and ferment.

Dough B: Mix for 3+1+1 minutes with 10 minute rests in between each step. Finally rest 10 minutes, shape to bulk ball and ferment.

Fermentation:
16 hours in bulk + 8 hours in balls @ 22 C.

Observations and results

During balling, both doughs were quite supple yet firm. Dough B seemed somewhat firmer/stronger that dough A.

After 24 hours of total fermentation, both doughs had reached 25 mm in the pluviometers. This is slightly less than my ideal but not too bad. Besides, our guests had arrived (with growling stomachs I could swear).

All in all I baked 16 pizzas. They were baked in the following order: A, A, B, B, A, A, B, B, …

While I was shaping the crust I was once again struck by the tendency of dough B to be somewhat stronger than dough A. The B variant was more firm to the touch, took a bit more effort to flatten, and it pulled back/shrank a bit more aggressively after shaping. The difference was slight but definitely noticeable.

Cooking time was always below 60 seconds, usually around 50. Oven temperature was measured to be relatively stable: Deck @ around 450 C, wall farthest from the fire @ ca 540 C.

Chewing on the finished pizzas revealed generally tender and tasty results. But again I was convinced that dough A was the lighter and less "chewy" of the two.

These are my very subjective observations. Since nobody else seemed to notice, I could very well be imagining things.

Discussion

I am still dialing in the proper mixing time for the Santos fork mixer. I started out with 10 minutes, which was way too much. Since then, I’ve gradually reduced the total mixing time. The 5 minutes I went for this time around seemed sufficient but perhaps still a little on the high end. I’ll keep reducing and see what happens (by the way, I am baffled at how very different the Santos dough is from the get go compared to my Kenwood doughs: The Santos dough seems so very strong/firm just moments after it has come together, while the Kenwood can actually run for 20+ minutes without getting even close).

More to the point for this experiment: It seems to me that that riposo steps/rests during mixing produces a stronger dough/less tender result than without such steps. This is perhaps contradictory to what others have experienced and reported, but it is in line with what I’ve experienced previously when attempting "modified autolysis" in previous (undocumented) experiments. Perhaps it is specific to my particular way of doing things, I don’t know. But for the most tender result, I am inclined to prefer the simple and direct mixing procedure that I used for dough A in this case.

Please float your theories or counter arguments if you have any. I am curious to know more.
Simply Dough B has gluten more strong than Dough A, and need more time to lose the Chew effect. Mix is a kind of art and you need  to combine with final Product that you want obtain.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Bill/SFNM on July 07, 2018, 08:56:34 PM
I've found the riposo lets me incorporate more water into the dough without it becoming sticky. The higher hydration contributes to the fluffiness of the crust. Of course, there are myriad other interdependent considerations. For example, higher hydration allows me to bake at a higher temp for a shorter time resulting in a softer crust.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 08, 2018, 05:00:00 AM
It seems to me that that riposo steps/rests during mixing produces a stronger dough/less tender result than without such steps.

Simply Dough B has gluten more strong than Dough A, and need more time to lose the Chew effect. Mix is a kind of art and you need  to combine with final Product that you want obtain.

I've found the riposo lets me incorporate more water into the dough without it becoming sticky.

Yes, I believe both artwork and science has a place in the making of dough. My attempt in this thread is to try and isolate the effect of a single variable at a time (if at all possible) with the hope of gaining both insight and experience which I can build on to progress further.

To summarize "The Riposo Effect", I think the consensus is that introducing rests in the mixing/kneading process builds extra strength (all other things being equal). Or, viewed from a different angle, the mixing/kneading time required to build a certain dough strength can be reduced by introducing pauses in the process (AOTBE).

Some situations where riposi are useful, then, could be:

Situations where riposi may not be the optimal choice include:

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: JimInPT on July 08, 2018, 11:40:07 AM
A quick rundown of the places I visited:

  • Antica Pizzeria Port'Alba: Pizza a portafoglio, it was nice but I believe I'd have been better of dining in.
  • Trianon da Ciro: Tasty margherita, but pales compared to the next places.
  • Sorbillo: Pizza perfection!
  • Da Michele: Having received mixed reviews, I was delighted to be served a fragrant, soft, and completely delicious margherita. Best tomato sauce of the bunch this trip.
  • Pepe in Grani: Great pizzas, I had three. The margherita was a looker (and yes, it was great tasting). The Scarpetta was to die for! (I've since attempted my own interpretation back home with some success). I can't remember the third.
  • Carlo Sammarco Pizzeria 2.0: Carlo and his staff were so welcomming, this visit was one to remember. Excellent pies, the Dan Antonio was amazing-
  • 50 Kalò: Ciro Salvo is one of my personal heroes, and he served up a great margherita. Maybe I was a bit in pizza-coma, but I remember that I had wished for more...
  • Dal Presidente: It was ok.

I'm curious to know what these famous places charge for a standard Margherita Napolitana - do they gouge the tourists, with a "secret" deal for locals?  I've seen ridiculous prices for MNs in big American cities, but was pleased that Prova in West Hollywood was US$12.75 for a 14" - considering their location's overhead that's not bad.

I live in the woods in the upper-left corner of the USA; the closest MN I can buy is probably Seattle (and I don't know where to go yet), which is most of a day to make a round trip, so I've been teaching myself and getting fairly good at it, at long last.  The biggest issue is limited range of mozzarella available here, but "fresh" Galbani isn't bad.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 10, 2018, 02:42:32 AM


I'm curious to know what these famous places charge for a standard Margherita Napolitana - do they gouge the tourists, with a "secret" deal for locals?  I've seen ridiculous prices for MNs in big American cities, but was pleased that Prova in West Hollywood was US$12.75 for a 14" - considering their location's overhead that's not bad.

The places I visited had Margherita prices ranging from €4.00 to €6.50. There is no special price for tourists, everybody pays the same. :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: JimInPT on July 10, 2018, 10:09:20 AM

The places I visited had Margherita prices ranging from €4.00 to €6.50. There is no special price for tourists, everybody pays the same. :)

Very nice pricing!  I think I could save enough money eating pizza there vs here to pay for the airfare.  And get great pizza in the bargain!   ;D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on July 11, 2018, 08:57:29 AM
What brand of tomatoes and cheese do you prefer? Something you buy locally?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 11, 2018, 02:33:00 PM
What brand of tomatoes and cheese do you prefer? Something you buy locally?

The cheese part is easy: Mozzarella di Bufala from Latbri (red bag 125 g, available at Coop Mega, Meny, Kolonial.no etc) is very good. Also the Fior Di Latte version (blue) is great when I want a leaner pizza.

Tomatoes: I have not settled on a clear favorite yet. I've tried all of the brands I can get hold of from grocery stores etc in Norway. "La Bella Napoli", which can be found at really great prices in Oslo, is tasty and inexpensive. La Valle Pomodori Pelati is also great, at a higher price. This year I have been expanding my search to include cans bought online. Some of my favorites this year are:

As for basil (I know you didn't ask ;D ), I've been hunting for that rich basil flavor and aroma that I experienced at some of the best places in Naples. From kolonial.no I can buy some relatively big, robust and very fragrant leaves. Still, something is left to be desired.

Just a few weeks ago, the basil we've been growing in our garden seemed to be ready for consumption. I must admit I added this to the pizza a little reluctantly. The leaves were rather tough, and the raw taste was quite "sharp". Not sure how to explain it, perhaps slightly acidic or maybe a hint of cirtrus. Anyway, after cooking in the oven: Wow! The margherita suddenly was twice as good. I am in basil heaven.  :-D

If you have any other tips or favorites, please share!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on July 12, 2018, 08:41:12 AM
Thanks. The red mozz is what I've used most by far, but recently I tried one from Rema 1000 that I like. They are 8-10 kroner less than the Latbri. I have tried mozzarella from some specialty shops in Oslo, but didn't find them better than Latbri. A photo of the Rema 1000 one here: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=52374.msg530057#msg530057

I squeeze out quite a bit of liquid from the Latbri, but the ones from Rema 1000 doesn't hold as much.

I also like the La Bella tomatoes, and they are really cheap. I think I pay 7 kr on a local market. Im not sure if I've used the version you posted a picture of. I've used the choppes ones and chopped with basil. Will try the whole ones next. Do you just add some salt to them? The tomatoes in Naples were probably what stood most out to me, such exquisite combination of sweet and acidic. I had one pie without tomatoes and did regret it. I also had some with tomatoes that were more ordinary.

I've also bought the La Valle from Gutta på Haugen in Mathallen a few times, they are very good, but I've mostly used La Bella since they aren't cheaper and closer.

I haven't bought anything online yet, but maybe I'll try one of those you tried. I haven't found any other tomatoes in ordinary stores that I like.

Basil can be difficult, for sure. Some of the leaves they used in Napoli were huge and really tasteful, it can be tricky to find the right ones. I bought some seeds online which we've planted, but not used them too much yet. We also put too many in the pots and haven't moved them to a larger pot yet, so they are crowded and hasn't grown too well. They seem to have survived our weeks of vacation so far, but will need some careful when we get back. It's also been very hot all summer, and I'm not sure if they like the 30C degrees.

I wonder if it's possible to buy some basil seeds from Italy and plant them, or if the type they use needs the heat and sun down there.

I bought some plants from Plantasjen some years ago that I liked a lot. They were lively and grew well. I've wanted to get a light of some sort to keep more herbs during winter.

Interesting note on how the basil leaves tasted raw compared to after baking. I've usually added them post-bake, but I'll try adding before. Maybe even below some cheese, which some pies in Naples had (probably because they got jumbled during launch). I think my experience is them drying out without my six minute bake, but maybe it works better if they are a bit soaked in cheese and sauce.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on July 12, 2018, 09:43:26 AM
I suppose you could just add the basil on top mid baking, so that they are only cooked for 1-2 minutes.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 12, 2018, 01:45:53 PM
Thanks. The red mozz is what I've used most by far, but recently I tried one from Rema 1000 that I like. They are 8-10 kroner less than the Latbri. I have tried mozzarella from some specialty shops in Oslo, but didn't find them better than Latbri. A photo of the Rema 1000 one here: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=52374.msg530057#msg530057

I squeeze out quite a bit of liquid from the Latbri, but the ones from Rema 1000 doesn't hold as much.

I have never seen that Rema 1000 mozzarella, but I'll keep my eyes peeled.

The mozzarella from Latbri can be very moist indeed. To get around this, I usually slice open the bags in the morning, cut the cheese in two halves, put them in a colander, place the colander in a bowl, cover and let drain in the fridge untill an hour or two before baking. At that time, a lot of water has been collected in the bows. I discard this, cut the cheese and place it back in the colander to drain untill bake time. This way I never have a problem with too moist mozzarella.

I also like the La Bella tomatoes, and they are really cheap. I think I pay 7 kr on a local market. Im not sure if I've used the version you posted a picture of. I've used the choppes ones and chopped with basil. Will try the whole ones next. Do you just add some salt to them? The tomatoes in Naples were probably what stood most out to me, such exquisite combination of sweet and acidic. I had one pie without tomatoes and did regret it. I also had some with tomatoes that were more ordinary.

Yes, if the tomatoes seem lacking I will usually add add a pinch of salt. I agree with you that some of the sauces in Naples are crazy delicious. My trip there really got me into high gear in search for better tomatoes.

I bought some plants from Plantasjen some years ago that I liked a lot. They were lively and grew well. I've wanted to get a light of some sort to keep more herbs during winter.

Interesting note on how the basil leaves tasted raw compared to after baking. I've usually added them post-bake, but I'll try adding before. Maybe even below some cheese, which some pies in Naples had (probably because they got jumbled during launch). I think my experience is them drying out without my six minute bake, but maybe it works better if they are a bit soaked in cheese and sauce.

Our basil is grown from seeds purchased on Plantasjen.

Nailing the basil is tricky. My usual routine has been to add it on top pre bake. They turn ugly, so I've tried adding post bake. The pizza will look better, but I get very little basil flavor that way. Lately I've tried adding the basil before the cheese, which I actually like alot. The last three times I've gone overboard and added a small "blanket" of basil directly on top of the tomatoes.  ;D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 13, 2018, 04:05:03 AM
Since the Santos mixer seems to be able to make a much stronger dough than I am used to, I decided to go nuts and attempt a 72% hydration dough:

High Hydration Attempt

100% Flour (Caputo Pizzeria)
72.0% Water (including water in starter)
2.8% Salt
4.7% SD (Ischia)

Fermentation: 22 hours (14+8) @ 21 °C

Actually, I made two doughs. Let’s call them... A and B.  :-D They were both identical except for the mixing time in the Santos: A was mixed for 4 ½ minutes, B was mixed for 6 minutes.

This was really fun, as both doughs turned out relatively manageable! That said, the A version was too slack for my preferences. It took a lot of effort to launch without mishaps (there were a few), and I was disappointed with the cornicione. I surmise that the gluten network was not sufficiently developed to keep the air trapped…? Anyway: The B dough was much better. It felt good, and although I accidentally did make a few "pizze al metro", the cornicione was better. And perhaps more importantly: we could eat all of the pizzas.

Besides, the crust on both A and B was very soft and tender. Perhaps the most tender crust I've done to date.

The next time I make dough this hydrated, I think I will actually try to include riposi in the workflow. I understand a little better now what Bill was talking about.

Low Hydration Escape

Working at 72% hydration was pretty exhausting to me, so yesterday I went back to my standard 65% dough. Let’s call it dough C.

100% Flour (Caputo Pizzeria)
65.0% Water (including water in starter)
2.8% Salt
3.2% SD (Ischia)

Fermentation: 22 hours (16+6) @ 22 °C

This was a small batch, so I made it with my good old Kenwood. This time, however, with the spiral hook, which I just recently received in the mail. The spiral hook works way better than the J-hook. With the "J", I need to work continuously with a spatula alongside the machine. With the spiral hook, that was not necessary at all. And it kneaded much more efficiently. It needed to run for just 6 minutes in total, compared to my typical 10 with the "J".

Resulting pizza was good, though there was something a little off. It almost seemed wetter than 65% during forming. It even stuck to the peel once. Furthermore, the cornicione seemed denser than usual for this kind of dough. Very strange. But decent pizza.

Perhaps a little more mixing next time...

Some pictures included below.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sub on July 13, 2018, 05:49:35 AM
Hi Arne,

I've enjoyed reading your thread, beautifull pies and a lot of passion !

For you next batch of pies, may I suggest you to try 1 hour autolyse instead of your riposo ?  (I always got a beautifull crumb this way )

Cheers
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 13, 2018, 08:01:24 AM


Hi Arne,

I've enjoyed reading your thread, beautifull pies and a lot of passion !

For you next batch of pies, may I suggest you to try 1 hour autolyse instead of your riposo ?  (I always got a beautifull crumb this way )

Cheers

Hi Sub,

Thank you! I love the suggestion. You mean for the wetter dough, right?

We are off on a small summer holiday now. I will try this as soon as I'm back. :)

Arne
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on July 13, 2018, 05:05:46 PM
Enjoy your holiday!


Once again a good read and very nice looking Pizza! I am intrigued with the last picture, labelled Scarpetta . . . . What is the topping placed post bake? Enquiring minds need to know!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 14, 2018, 01:31:41 AM


Enjoy your holiday!


Once again a good read and very nice looking Pizza! I am intrigued with the last picture, labelled Scarpetta . . . . What is the topping placed post bake? Enquiring minds need to know!

Thanks I will! Looking forward to some lazy days. :)

Yes, post bake, the Scarpetta is topped with tomato compote, parmigiano shavings and basil oil. Before it goes into the oven, I only add parmigiano cream and some mozzarella.

This is my attempt at recreating one of Franco Pepe's signature pizzas, which I had the Fortune of tasting in Caiazzo this spring. It was sublime! The contrasts in texture, temperature and taste is fantastic! My clear favorite from the trip to Naples.

I crave one just by writing this. Too bad I'm on an airplane waiting for takeoff...
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sub on July 14, 2018, 02:00:13 AM

Hi Sub,

Thank you! I love the suggestion. You mean for the wetter dough, right?


It works for both but the benefits are more visible on a lower hydration dough.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: mrmafix on July 14, 2018, 04:20:09 PM

Thanks I will! Looking forward to some lazy days. :)

Yes, post bake, the Scarpetta is topped with tomato compote, parmigiano shavings and basil oil. Before it goes into the oven, I only add parmigiano cream and some mozzarella.

This is my attempt at recreating one of Franco Pepe's signature pizzas, which I had the Fortune of tasting in Caiazzo this spring. It was sublime! The contrasts in texture, temperature and taste is fantastic! My clear favorite from the trip to Naples.

I crave one just by writing this. Too bad I'm on an airplane waiting for takeoff...

Tomato compote looks great!  Would you be willing to share your recipe for it?! 
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 15, 2018, 08:16:42 AM
Tomato compote looks great!  Would you be willing to share your recipe for it?!

Absolutely!

Ingredients for two pizzas:

Tomato compote:

- 350 g tomatoes
- 1/2 red onion
- 1 large clove of garlic
- 1/2 tbsp balsamic vinegar (I splurge and use the real stuff)
- 1/2 tsp tomato paste
- a few basil leaves
- EVOO
- salt and pepper

1. Skin the tomatoes. I do this by slicing an X in the skin, dump in boiling water for about 20 seconds and then immediately transfer to ice water. Skin then peels off with ease.
2. Finely chop the onion and garlic.
3. Add some olive oil in a frying pan, heat up and add the onion and garlic
4. Stir well until onion is soft
5. Add the balsamic vinegar, stir while cooking until no longer wet (only moist), about a minute or so
6. Add chopped tomatoes and tomato paste
7. Simmer for at least 40 minutes, stirring occasionally and "mashing" any large tomato chunks.
8. Finish by adding finely chopped basil leaves and salt+pepper to taste


Parmigiano Cream:

Make bechamel sauce with 10 g butter, 10 g 00-flour and 135 ml whole milk. After removing the sauce from the stove, add 50 grams of grated parmigiano and stir well.

To me, the parmigiano cream is definitely best when using aged Parmigiano (24 months or more). Pepe uses aged Grana but I am not able to source that here.

The cream can be a little stiff and so difficult to apply with a spoon. I have started using a piping bag. That works well.


Basil oil:

The pizza I got at Pepe's had some powdery basil added to it, perhaps it was freeze dried or something, I really don't know. What I found works for me is to chop some basil very finely, into almost a moist powder, and then stir this with some good EVOO. I then drizzle this over the top using a tea spoon.


The pizza:

Pre-bake: Add parmigiano cream and some mozzarella.
Post-bake: Cut pizza in 6 slices, apply a small spoon of tomato compote to each slice, top with shaved parmigiano and basil oil.

If you try it, you're in for a treat! Please let me know how it went. :-)


Some pictures below, more to follow soon...
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 15, 2018, 08:18:42 AM
More pictures...
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 15, 2018, 08:20:05 AM
Even more pictures.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on July 15, 2018, 10:09:11 AM
Just WOW!
You do not do things by half’s! Not just helpful but incredibly so! I will be saving this for future reference.
Thank you so much for your time!


I have to worry a bit because of your thorough answers, - there could be many questions out there!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: mrmafix on July 15, 2018, 01:48:25 PM
Even more pictures.

Thank you so much!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 15, 2018, 02:46:07 PM
You are very welcome! I have taken a lot from all of you, it delights me to have something to offer in return.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: BenLee on July 15, 2018, 11:33:08 PM
to prevent the basil from burning, I usually just let them sit in the sauce and pick up a protective moisture layer from the tomatoes.  Then, they go on top of the pie. 
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: JimInPT on July 16, 2018, 01:11:46 PM
to prevent the basil from burning, I usually just let them sit in the sauce and pick up a protective moisture layer from the tomatoes.  Then, they go on top of the pie.

That's a good technique; I'm usually lazy enough to just hide them under the cheese, then add a bit more on top after cooking.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Hanglow on July 16, 2018, 02:22:02 PM
Great thread, I am thoroughly enjoying all the pictures too. Your pizzas look great!

Antilife has a recipe for parmesan cream in his thread which uses ricotta watered down with milk, lots of parmesan and salt and pepper. Would be interesting to try that alongside your bechamel one
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sub on July 16, 2018, 05:55:14 PM
there is a recipe here (https://www.granapadano.it/it-it/piatti-unici-pizza-scarpetta.aspx)

For the Grana Padano cream:
50 gr cooking cream
25 gr Grana Padano 12 months (grated)

For the Grana Padano cream:
Pour the cream into a saucepan and bring to a boil, stirring constantly; once it has boiled, pour it into a blender and add the Grana Padano. Blend everything for 10 seconds, remove the mixture from the blender and let it cool until it acquires a creamy consistency. At this point it can be used.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 17, 2018, 04:05:16 AM
Great find!

I'm going to have to try both Antilife's and the one with just cream and Grana. I must say I like the simplicity of the latter one.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 29, 2018, 11:13:32 AM
Solea and Autolyse

so watching a video recently where the staff at Da Michele were preparing for the day, I noticed they used the SOLEA brand for their sauce.

They are reported to use Solea canned tomatoes, which seem to be available in the US, though expensive.  Cheaper than a trip to Naples though!

As one who really loves the tomato sauce at Da Michele, I just had to test these tomatoes. There are no suppliers that will ship to Norway (or will not ship at a reasonable price) that I have found, but fortunately I was going to spend a week in Italy just a few days after reading the quotes above. Domestic shipping of 48 cans from Naples to Greve in Chianti worked like a charm. I brought them back to Norway myself. They even got their own dedicated suitcase, them lucky Soleas. :-)

To have something to serve them on, I prepared a couple of batches of pizza dough as follows:

100% flour (Caputo Pizzeria)
64,5% water (Straight from the tap)
2,8% salt
0,05% CY (My Ischia starter is just waking up after a couple of weeks in the fridge)

Ferment 24 hours (16+8) at 22,8 °C.

For the first batch (A), I first combined almost all of the water with 2/3 of the flour and let it rest for an hour. This is my autolyse step and was done as per sub’s suggestion. Then I started the mixer (Kenwood with spiral attachment) at the lowest speed and added the rest of the flour. The yeast was dissolved in the rest of the water, before being added to the mix. After two minutes of mixing, the salt was added too. The dough was mixed for a total of 8 minutes.

The second batch (B) was a simple dough where I first combined almost all of the water with all of the flour, put it on the mixer immediately, added yeast dissolved in remaining water and waited two minutes before adding the salt, as before. This dough was mixed for a total of 10 minutes.

After the mix, the dough rested for 10 minutes, and I did 2-3 stretch and folds. This was repeated again after another 10 minutes. At this point they were both nice and smooth.

So I have two doughs. Dough A, the "Autolyse dough", was mixed for 8 minutes. Dough B, the "Simple dough", was mixed for 10 minutes. Otherwise they were treated the same. The rationale for mixing B a little longer than A was my previous experience with autolyse where it seems to add some strength to the dough. The time difference was an attempt to make two doughs of equal strength, to see what other effect(s) an autolyse step might produce in my dough.


Here is how the doughs felt and behaved at different steps in the process:

Last stretch and fold before bulk fermentation

Dough A felt really really good in my hands. It had a wonderful texture, it was soft, fluffy and pliable. It felt pretty moist/wet, but it was not sticky at all. I really liked this dough at this stage, it whispered promises of a soft, warm, fluffy and tender crust to come.

Dough B was like my usual dough, i.e. nice and smooth. It seemed to have a slightly lower hydration level than A, but this was not the case of course. I am usually happy with this result, but at this point I felt it was lacking something, since A seemed to handle so perfectly just minutes before.

Balling

Dough B was perhaps a little bit firmer than dough A, but other than that I noticed little difference.

Unfortunately, both doughs were pretty much overfermented at this point. In fact, they should have been baked a couple of hours ago by the looks of it. I have actually never used fresh yeast for my neopolitan pizza before. I’ll adjust next time.

Oh well. 8 o’clock in the morning is too early for lunch. I’ll stick to my schedule knowing full well that misery is in the immediate future.

Baking

The dough balls looked surprisingly good, not too many visible signs of overfermentation (except some bubbles, and of course the size). It was pretty obvious when I picked one up though. Extremely relaxed, soft and sticky. Air bubbles were puffing up by the slightest of touches.

I managed to bake 5 out of 8 pizza balls. The remaining 3 either tore before launch or on the hot deck. I even managed to drop one on the floor on its way to the trash can.

At this point I honestly don’t think there were any difference whatsoever in how the two batches handled.

What I did notice, though, was that the A pies had a much more pronounced cornicione than the B ones. Due to autolyse? Who knows… ;-)


Tasting

The pizzas were good, similar tasting.

And the tomatoes… They were good. But they were nothing like Da Michele.


Conclusion

Sometimes things just don't work out, and this was one of those days. I must say I was really encouraged by how dough A felt before the fermentation catastrophy, so I am absolutely going to give autolyse another go later.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: JimInPT on July 29, 2018, 12:08:17 PM
Even if it was a dud, I'm sad about that last photo.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on July 29, 2018, 12:14:01 PM
Thank You Arne for the post and continuing to do testing and research that I can enjoy and use! Wonderful looking Pizza again, makes me hope for similar results for tonight’s Bake, perhaps a bit less fermented apparently.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 29, 2018, 03:41:26 PM
Even if it was a dud, I'm sad about that last photo.
Haha yeah it is a heartbreaking sight! (But also kind of funny how a lone basil leaf flew opposite the tomato splatter!) :D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 29, 2018, 03:43:29 PM


Thank You Arne for the post and continuing to do testing and research that I can enjoy and use! Wonderful looking Pizza again, makes me hope for similar results for tonight’s Bake, perhaps a bit less fermented apparently.

Thanks for the compliment. I eagerly anticipate your next pizza post from the island far far away.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: JimInPT on July 29, 2018, 03:50:11 PM
Thank You Arne for the post and continuing to do testing and research that I can enjoy and use! Wonderful looking Pizza again, makes me hope for similar results for tonight’s Bake, perhaps a bit less fermented apparently.

I bought my kayak on your island about a hundred years ago during a gathering.  Nice place!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: mrmafix on July 29, 2018, 10:10:02 PM
You are very welcome! I have taken a lot from all of you, it delights me to have something to offer in return.

Tried out the recipe and it was a hit, thank you so much!  I also went a little crazy with some summer truffles :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: JimInPT on July 29, 2018, 10:43:04 PM
Haha yeah it is a heartbreaking sight! (But also kind of funny how a lone basil leaf flew opposite the tomato splatter!) :D

Pretty good look at the nice leopard-spotting, though.  So there's that.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 30, 2018, 03:15:54 PM
Tried out the recipe and it was a hit, thank you so much!  I also went a little crazy with some summer truffles :)

Wow that's just awesome!

I'm really glad you enjoyed the recipe.

That truffle pie looks extravagant! :drool:  Is that mozzarella beneath? Is this a spur of the moment pizza, or is this a thing. (looks expensive anyway! :-D )
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: mrmafix on July 30, 2018, 08:17:57 PM
Wow that's just awesome!

I'm really glad you enjoyed the recipe.

That truffle pie looks extravagant! :drool:  Is that mozzarella beneath? Is this a spur of the moment pizza, or is this a thing. (looks expensive anyway! :-D )

It was planned haha!  I put a little taleggio, buff mozz, and provolone underneath.  Post bake, I put a smear of a truffle cream sauce and then layered with the fresh summer truffles.  It was unreal. 
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: CaptBob on July 30, 2018, 09:54:45 PM
Tried out the recipe and it was a hit, thank you so much!  I also went a little crazy with some summer truffles :)

Love it Krris!!!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 31, 2018, 01:29:59 AM
It was planned haha!  I put a little taleggio, buff mozz, and provolone underneath.  Post bake, I put a smear of a truffle cream sauce and then layered with the fresh summer truffles.  It was unreal.

It really does sound unreal.

Truffle cream sauce, is that just minced truffle whipped with some cream, or something more elaborate?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 05, 2018, 04:54:55 PM
Just for fun, I added 2% charcoal to my dough tonight.

As I weighed out the dry ingredients, my thoughts went to Vesuvio. The same though struck me when the pizza came out of the oven: Red tomato splatter on puffy black crust was pretty volcano-like I though.  :)

I will probably not do it again any time soon, but it was great fun anyway!  :-D

Arne.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 05, 2018, 04:55:39 PM
Some more pictures.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: JimInPT on August 05, 2018, 05:47:28 PM
Ok, I thought squid ink was a little weird, but that's out there.   :o
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: mmille24 on August 05, 2018, 06:32:19 PM
Wow. That's pretty interesting. How did it taste?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 06, 2018, 12:42:00 AM
Wow. That's pretty interesting. How did it taste?

It tasted a bit weird, until I closed my eyes. Then it just tasted like my normal pizza margherita.  :-D

It is so true how we eat with our eyes.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: schold on August 06, 2018, 06:12:44 AM
Charcoal craze ;D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on August 06, 2018, 10:22:41 AM
Arne - there was something familiar about the Pizza. It took a while for the grey cels to connect but it was a couple of entries in Porter Reinhart’s Book “American Pie : My search for the perfect pizza”. One I recall had the addition of Black Truffle paste and I believe was called Vesuvio, the other is less clear in memory, but I believe was a Pizza that resembled mountain in shape or toppings . . . .I will have to search.
Closest I have had has been after retrieval of a stuck pizza.
Interesting idea but visually shocking on presentation
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: mrmafix on August 06, 2018, 01:05:35 PM
It really does sound unreal.

Truffle cream sauce, is that just minced truffle whipped with some cream, or something more elaborate?

Minced truffles and cream mixed with sauteed shallots / minced mushrooms! 
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 06, 2018, 01:16:25 PM
Arne - there was something familiar about the Pizza. It took a while for the grey cels to connect but it was a couple of entries in Porter Reinhart’s Book “American Pie : My search for the perfect pizza”. One I recall had the addition of Black Truffle paste and I believe was called Vesuvio, the other is less clear in memory, but I believe was a Pizza that resembled mountain in shape or toppings . . . .I will have to search.
Closest I have had has been after retrieval of a stuck pizza.
Interesting idea but visually shocking on presentation
Hey Greg that's very interesting. Truffle paste probably adds some nice flavor as well, which charcoal apparently does not. :-D

I'd be curious to know how he deliberately shapes the pizza into a volcano. I thought I got a few nice streams of lava running from the cornicione, though that was dumb luck of course. Other than your idea of a simulated launch failure, perhaps I could use a scrap piece of dough and mold a "centerpiece" crater.

Oh no, sounds like I have to do it again... :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 10, 2018, 06:09:17 AM
My Ischia culture is having a fit again. After being refrigerated for a couple of weeks while I was on vacation, it appears a little sleepy still. For my pizza party this Tuesday, therefore, I decided to play it safe and make two batches of dough: One with SD and one with fresh yeast.

Both batches had a hydration level of 63% and included 2.8% salt. I used 5.2% SD in one and 0.075% CY in the other. Apart from how the yeast was incorporated, they were prepared exactly the same way: I used the Santos fork mixer, mixed/kneaded for 5 minutes 30 seconds (aiming for a somewhat strong dough to practice my stretching technique), then executed three rounds of stretching and folding.

Planned fermentation schedule was to 16+8 hours at 20 C.

After 16 hours, the SD batch looked to have progressed according to plan. The CY batch, however, was almost ready. After balling I therefore decided to place the CY balls back in the fermentation chamber at 10 C to slow down further development. I took it back out again three hours before bake time to allow it to reach temperature and finish fermenting.

When it was time to bake these doughs, the balls from both batches looked quite similar. Pluviometer readings seemed to confirm this (28mm, right around my sweet spot).

They felt completely different, however! The SD batch was rather elastic and took some firm persuasion (slapping) to stretch out to the proper size. The CY batch had considerably less elasticity and could be formed into equally sized disk by very gentle pushing and maybe a little stretching (no slapping whatsoever).

Why is that?  ???

I am a little puzzled. Because of the cool storage period, I had actually expected the CY dough to be a little stiffer than the SD one, not the other way around.

My best guess would be that the difference is due to the "fermentation rate": perhaps because the CY batch fermented a lot quicker initially, it somehow affected the strength/elasticity of the dough…?

As for the pizzas, they were good. Both doughs were really nice to work with, despite their differences. We enjoyed the results (mostly, see later post) and had a good time.  :pizza:

Some pics below.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 10, 2018, 06:10:43 AM
I am reluctantly adding a PS to the report above… It hurts a bit, but it was simply too hilarious not to share, so here goes… :-D

One of the guests on my Tuesday pizza party is a lover of everything spicy -- really spicy! So, taking inspiration from my previous black pizza, which reminded me of a volcano, and nudged by a fascinating description of a volcano shaped pizza that Greg shared with me, I decided to make a third batch of dough.

This third dough was a black dough, using charcoal as before.

I had it all planned out: Above the black base, I would add a tomato sauce spiked with Carolina Reaper chilis. I’d continue adding just a few specks of white mozzarella. Then, in the center of the pie, a large piece of mozzarella cut into the shape of a crater. Thin strips of dough, alternating black and white, would then be laid over the surface of the pizza to represent the walls of the volcano. On top of this, sauce of yellow tomatoes and sauce of red tomatoes sprinkled on alternately to complete the illusion of lava running down the crater.

In my head it looked fantastic!

In reality... Not so much!  :-D

An embarrassing photo below. Enjoy the spectacle!  :-[
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on August 10, 2018, 06:45:24 AM
Regarding the doughs, could it be that the fermentation process makes a difference, not just the end result? Let's say you had two doughs made with the same yeast or starter, where one spent some time at 10C first, then 20C later. The other dough went the other way. The times would possibly not want to be identical in each storage. Temperature greatly affects growth rate, and maybe the dough that first went into 20C ultimately had more activity since it got a kick-start at a higher temperature. If so, the properties of the dough might change, depending on if you have the period with higher activity early or late in the fermentation process. I'll try to explain with some made-up numbers.

Let's say you start fermenting at 0 and want to use it at 100 (around 28mm on your pluviometer). One dough starts out hot and gets to 80 after 16 hours before you move it to a cooler location where it spends 8 hours from 80 to 100. The other dough sits at a the same temperature all 24 hours and also end up at 100. After 16 hours, it's maybe around 60 (again, just inventing numbers here). Could the fact that the first dough spent more time at a further point in the fermentation schedule change it's properties compared to the other?

This is of course difficult to tell when you got two doughs with different leavening agents.

Another possibility is the starter being a bit on the fritz and needing more feedings. Do you monitor temperature when feeding the starter? If you use the same hours and feeding schedule, a difference in temperature can change the timings a bit. Even if all things are equal, working with starters is always an interesting journey that you can never predict 100%.

We've had a lot of changing weather here the last week. From hot days up to 30C to sub 20 with lots of humidity. These are also the famous "dog days" that we call them in Norway. Not that I believe there to be anything magical about it, but the changing temperatures and levels of humidity can possibly play tricks on our baking efforts, even if it's not easy to spot by the naked eye.

I love the volcano pizza! Probably not the best you've ever made, but just the idea and trying to make it is awesome. I have no doubt you'd be able to perfect it with more attempts, but I think you did a great job. We get very technical, nitty gritty and focused on details and perfection in this forum. That pizza is a great deviation, showing some childlike ideas (as a positive thing) put into practice.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: vtsteve on August 10, 2018, 09:46:00 AM
In my head it looked fantastic!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 10, 2018, 10:19:51 AM


Regarding the doughs, could it be that the fermentation process makes a difference, not just the end result? Let's say you had two doughs made with the same yeast or starter, where one spent some time at 10C first, then 20C later. The other dough went the other way. The times would possibly not want to be identical in each storage. Temperature greatly affects growth rate, and maybe the dough that first went into 20C ultimately had more activity since it got a kick-start at a higher temperature. If so, the properties of the dough might change, depending on if you have the period with higher activity early or late in the fermentation process. I'll try to explain with some made-up numbers.

Let's say you start fermenting at 0 and want to use it at 100 (around 28mm on your pluviometer). One dough starts out hot and gets to 80 after 16 hours before you move it to a cooler location where it spends 8 hours from 80 to 100. The other dough sits at a the same temperature all 24 hours and also end up at 100. After 16 hours, it's maybe around 60 (again, just inventing numbers here). Could the fact that the first dough spent more time at a further point in the fermentation schedule change it's properties compared to the other?

Thanks for a thoughtful response. I think you are on to something. I have not considered this (potential) effect before, but if this is the case then it is really a very important factor. At least judging by how different my two doughs were.



This is of course difficult to tell when you got two doughs with different leavening agents.

Yes, unfortunately...


Another possibility is the starter being a bit on the fritz and needing more feedings. Do you monitor temperature when feeding the starter? If you use the same hours and feeding schedule, a difference in temperature can change the timings a bit. Even if all things are equal, working with starters is always an interesting journey that you can never predict 100%.

We've had a lot of changing weather here the last week. From hot days up to 30C to sub 20 with lots of humidity. These are also the famous "dog days" that we call them in Norway. Not that I believe there to be anything magical about it, but the changing temperatures and levels of humidity can possibly play tricks on our baking efforts, even if it's not easy to spot by the naked eye.

Those are interesting suggestions. I keep my culture in room temp, in the basement, so it avoids the most extreme fluctuations we've seen lately. The fermentation chamber is a temp-controlled chest freezer.


I love the volcano pizza! Probably not the best you've ever made, but just the idea and trying to make it is awesome. I have no doubt you'd be able to perfect it with more attempts, but I think you did a great job. We get very technical, nitty gritty and focused on details and perfection in this forum. That pizza is a great deviation, showing some childlike ideas (as a positive thing) put into practice.

Haha thanks for cheering me along. It is much appreciated. :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 10, 2018, 10:21:00 AM
"close encounters mashed potato.jpg"

Touché! :-D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on August 19, 2018, 06:26:05 AM
I've decided to get a pluviometer to more accurately judge the fermentation of the dough. After I started using my Ischia starter, I've lost control over the fermentation. It's far more active than my own ever was. Just gotta find a store where they sell them.

I was wondering if you ever take the ball out of the pluviometer during fermentation or just leave it there the entire time. I've seen some take it out at the same time they ball or re-ball a dough, do the same operation as they do on the ball and shove it down again.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 19, 2018, 06:35:23 AM
I've decided to get a pluviometer to more accurately judge the fermentation of the dough. After I started using my Ischia starter, I've lost control over the fermentation. It's far more active than my own ever was. Just gotta find a store where they sell them.

I was wondering if you ever take the ball out of the pluviometer during fermentation or just leave it there the entire time. I've seen some take it out at the same time they ball or re-ball a dough, do the same operation as they do on the ball and shove it down again.
You can get them on Biltema for 40 kroner. I'm sure Clas Ohlson and Jula carry them as well.

I have been using pluviometers for a couple of years now, and untill recently I always reballed the 80 gram pieces in the pluviometers when going from bulk to ball. That's what Besmir & Ville recommend in their book.

This year, having experimented more with different times in ball, had some really over fermented batches, etc, I now sometimes opt to just leave it in the meter untouched. It works equally well I think, as long as I keep in mind what process I followed and judge the progress based on that.

Edit: Some shopping assistance links for you :-)

https://www.biltema.no/fritid/hage/hagedekorasjoner/regnmaler-2000035761

https://www.jula.no/catalog/hage/utemiljo/hagedekorasjon/regnmaler/

https://www.jernia.no/produktkatalog/hjem-og-hage/hage-og-uterom/plante-og-kompostering/hageprodukt/regnmåler-m-spyd-plus75-klar/p/00453710

https://www.plantasjen.no/regnmaler-100020413-no

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on August 19, 2018, 06:46:09 AM
Thanks! My GF wanted to go to Plantasjen today to look for some plants, but I wasn't too keen. Then I found out I wanted a pluviometer and she said they might have it at Plantasjen. Now I want to go too. :D

I think it's reasonable to just leave it in the pluviometer. It's not so much the actual volume of the dough that's interesting, as how far it has fermented. By balling or re-balling, you are reducing the volume, but the level of fermentation is the same. Not touching the dough in the pluviometer might make the level in the pluviometer less comparable to someone else that do re-ball the pluviometer dough, but I'd assume it's more useful as a reference point for your own dough, not to compare it to someone else's.

You make a dough, monitor the pluviometer, use the dough at some point, write down the pluviometer level and how the dough came out. Then you can make adjustments based on that for next time. With enough experience, it becomes a great tool on how close your dough is to where it's ready. As long as you don't touch it every time, it should be a way to do it.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 19, 2018, 06:58:34 AM
Yes I pretty much agree. On the other hand, balling the dough does change it's properties. Some air is squeezed out, gluten is probably affected, and there are probably several other related changes going on that affect the dough properties.

So I'm still on the fence on this issue. Doing a little bit of this and a little bit of that untill I have gathered some more experience. :)

Good luck, enjoy your trip to Plantasjen! :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on August 24, 2018, 08:54:20 PM
Anticipating another of your bakes, hoping to see some fine pies . . . . . ..
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 25, 2018, 04:36:57 AM
The last couple of weeks it has become increasingly evident that Winter Is Coming. Or at least the fall. We’re still making pizza of course, but the decision is usually last minute (i.e. "last 24 hours"), as the weather is quite unstable now. In this situation, I have usually opted for a tried and tested dough. Which is probably why my experimental reports have been few and far between lately.

Yesterday, I tried something that I have been wanting to make ever since I tasted the "Don Antonio" at Carlo Sammarco’s: Pizza Montanara. It’s fried pizza. Not the folded variety (which I actually don’t care much for). Rather, the entire dough disc is quickly deep fried before it is dressed and finished in the oven.

I have been wondering how to pull this off myself, but when I found this video where Antonio Starita makes his famous original (link below), I realized it really wasn’t as complicated as I’ve made it out to be. In my mind. :-D

The dough I made:

Total dough mass weighed in at 2.220 kg. It was mixed in my Santos fork mixer for 8 minutes and fermented at 20 °C for 20 hours (9+11). While even this amount of CY was a little on the high end, it was by no means a disaster.

Coming back to 67% hydration after a number of escapes down to 63% put me in high alert mode, which felt kind of good really. The dough was puffy, soft and pretty slack, but it behaved. Forming discs required no effort at all and the pizzas that were baked the normal way came off the peel with ease.

The montanaras were prepared by first making dough discs the way I normally do. The discs were lowered into oil at 185 °C, where they puffed up really quick. I flipped them a few times until they were light golden all over. At that point, I pulled them out and placed them on a plate covered with kitchen paper towel to dry a little.

Then I topped them with my usual tomato sauce, mozzarella and basil. I finished with some coarse grated Parmigiano Reggiano and a drizzle of EVOO. More oil, please!

Finally, they were finished in the oven. We did the montanaras after the regular ones, so the oven had had some time to cool in between. I did not measure the temperature, but perhaps it was around 400 °C. Also, I did not time them, I just kept watch, rotated from time to time, and baked them until they looked finished.

I was quite happy with the results: Crispy, airy, soft and light. Very tasty as well. Not to mention great fun!

Next time I make fried pizza, I’ll try to get a hold of smoked provola and recreate Antonio Starita’s original creation.
Video here. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l42TYjmWq9k)

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: anfars on August 26, 2018, 08:00:27 AM
Following this closely!

After a month in Italy with multiple trips to both Sorbillo and Pepe in grani I've been trying to find out how to make the pies taste something like these delights, especially the ones from Franco Pepe.

Veldig bra initiativ og veldokumentert  :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 26, 2018, 02:18:32 PM
After a month in Italy with multiple trips to both Sorbillo and Pepe in grani I've been trying to find out how to make the pies taste something like these delights, especially the ones from Franco Pepe.

Veldig bra initiativ og veldokumentert  :)

Takk, da søker vi mye av det samme, anfars. Thanks, you and me both, anfars!

Sorbillo: I am still working on my "tenderness à la Sorbillo" thing. Once in a while I seem to hit the right buttons in the right order, but I have yet to pin this one down. How about you?

About Franco Pepe. What are the main aspects of your visits to Pepe that speak to you and that you want to recreate?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: anfars on August 27, 2018, 10:13:40 AM
Takk, da søker vi mye av det samme, anfars. Thanks, you and me both, anfars!

Sorbillo: I am still working on my "tenderness à la Sorbillo" thing. Once in a while I seem to hit the right buttons in the right order, but I have yet to pin this one down. How about you?

About Franco Pepe. What are the main aspects of your visits to Pepe that speak to you and that you want to recreate?

Well, aside from the topping which of course were top class, I was struck by the taste of the bread itself, when you find yourself really enjoying the taste of the plain cornicione. Very light and puffy but the taste had kind of a "body" like a wine or micro brewed craft beer, not only bread.. if that makes sense.

I really enjoyed Sorbillo as well, but felt maybe that there was an slight extra touch to Pepe, maybe anticipation or the presentation which is slightly different, IDK.

The digestability of Pepe was also a interesting factor, first time the tasting menu of 6 courses and the following times 2 pizzas easily by myself which left with the feeling of a lighter one dish meal.. when expecting a full blown yeast and flour coma.

When I eat breads that isn't made with sourdough alone my stomach goes on a strike.

When trying to replicate this dough I've been using high hydration, in the 68-69% and the closest I've got was last test when using RT bulk fermentation about 16h and shaped 6h, whereas 2-3h in fridge due to too much activity (it's pretty warm here still) with a 3% starter made from a mix of rye, 00 and wheat flour, baking at about 430C for a minute.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 28, 2018, 12:41:37 PM


(...)

When trying to replicate this dough I've been using high hydration, in the 68-69% and the closest I've got was last test when using RT bulk fermentation about 16h and shaped 6h, whereas 2-3h in fridge due to too much activity (it's pretty warm here still) with a 3% starter made from a mix of rye, 00 and wheat flour, baking at about 430C for a minute.

I too have found that hydration in the high 60s combined with a relatively short time in balls takes me close. For a while I thought I had to take care not to make the dough too strong. While probably true, it seems I've taken this a little too far and now I need to compensate with more mixing. And/or keep experimenting with autolyse.

I guess I just have to return to Naples and calibrate the senses sometime soon... :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: anfars on August 29, 2018, 02:08:00 PM

I guess I just have to return to Naples and calibrate the senses sometime soon... :)


I find that to be an exceptional idea, a study trip, just like in school.

This was the results I got from the last bake, getting closer but just not quite there yet. With the recipe above.


Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on September 01, 2018, 05:42:21 AM
Well done. Looks really nice, a pretty pie indeed. Bet it was tasty too. :)

Did you find the dough manageable? And the resulting pie soft and fluffy?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: anfars on September 01, 2018, 07:19:20 AM
Well done. Looks really nice, a pretty pie indeed. Bet it was tasty too. :)

Did you find the dough manageable? And the resulting pie soft and fluffy?

I was indeed very tasty!

For this dough i used the Caputo 00 classica, for the other ones I've been using Caputo 00 cuoco.. A little novice but I blindly assumed that Caputo "blue" was the same as all the blue, but since its not, I'm gonna go for a bag of the Caputo pizzeria.

This dough (Classica) was manageable but different and more delicate than the Cuoco, my first thought was over fermented when trying to ball them but after the first bake it gave wonderful results.

I'm excited to try the Pizzeria instead, it should come closer to the end result I'm looking for, considering that G. Sorbillo apparently has recommended the given Protein and W value of it.

Any updates coming from the land up north?  ;D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on September 01, 2018, 10:44:23 AM
Sounds good! I get dizzy with all variations and colors of Caputo flour. I guess you have been using 1 kg bags right?

I have just mixed up a new dough, 68% hydration, 4 h autolyse. Will bake tomorrow and submit a report. :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: anfars on September 02, 2018, 04:40:51 AM
Yes 1 kg, so the moderate jump up to 25 kg means there's gonna be a lot of practicing :)

Looking forward to see your report!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: hakgr on September 02, 2018, 06:09:41 AM
Good to see fellow Norwegians here!

Can I ask where you were able to get the Caputo Pizzeria flour here? I'm currently using the Caputo Classica too.

Im posting a picture or two of my neapolitan pizzas too if you dont't mind. Based in Oslo.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on September 02, 2018, 07:23:17 AM
Good to see fellow Norwegians here!

Can I ask where you were able to get the Caputo Pizzeria flour here? I'm currently using the Caputo Classica too.

Im posting a picture or two of my neapolitan pizzas too if you dont't mind. Based in Oslo.

Hi hakgr.

Your pizza looks impressive!

Caputo Pizzeria is nowhere to be found in regular stores, so I buy online from YouDreamItaly.com (https://www.youdreamitaly.com/).  :chef:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on September 02, 2018, 08:21:41 AM
Good to see fellow Norwegians here!

Can I ask where you were able to get the Caputo Pizzeria flour here? I'm currently using the Caputo Classica too.

Im posting a picture or two of my neapolitan pizzas too if you dont't mind. Based in Oslo.
Great looking pies! What oven do you bake them in?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on September 02, 2018, 12:40:47 PM
I am still on a mission. I have not forgotten where I want to take my dough. As much as I’ve tried to avoid it, I think I just need to face it at this point: Pizzas made from my wetter doughs appeal the most to me. I need to up the water percentage again.

The dough


Total dough mass: 2.225 kg.

I wanted to build a decent amount of strength into this dough, to give me the best possible chance of turning out pizzas instead of generating soupy mess on the oven floor. Since autolyse seems to improve strength, I opted for a 4 hour autolyse period this time.

All of the flour was combined with with almost all of the water and let sit for 4 hours @ 20 °C. Then, the yeast was mixed with the remaining 50 grams of water and added to the dough. Now the Santos fork mixer was started, and 1 minute in the salt was added. After a total of 8 minutes of mixing/kneading, the mixer was shut off and a series of three stretch-and-folds were executed at 10 minute intervals before the dough ball was put in the temp controlled fermentation chamber at 20 °C. Total fermentation time: 24 hours (18+6). When it was time to bake, the pluviometer showed 24.5mm, which is just a little bit lower than what I shoot for. But close enough.

The bake

The dough was really slack and very delicate. After the initial pressing down on the ball, almost no shaping was necessary, just a few gentle tugs along the rim. Even though none went to waste, I did produced a number of elongated and otherwise oddly shaped pizzas. The main problem was transferring the dressed pizza to the peel, the weight of the ingredients seemed almost too much for the weak dough disc.

The taste

I was very happy with the results. Not so much the looks, but taste and texture. The Cirio tomatoes were great, and in concert with the basil (still the home grown variety) it was sublime. The crust was really soft, tender and tasty. A little too much bench flour, but all is forgiven, for this is the closest I’ve come to my goal so far. Actually, Da Michele came to mind.

Next time

Next time I will repeat this dough, but I will mix longer. And possibly ditch the autolyse.

Some photos below.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on September 02, 2018, 01:00:38 PM
They look so good.  :drool:

One issue that's easy to run into with higher hydration is dough wetness during handling and loading. Have you ever tried proofing in wooden boxes, like fi. Craig does? The wood might lower the hydration a little, but that's fine. What I believe is the most useful trait of using wood, is that it dries out the surface and bottom of the dough a little, making them easier to work with and requiring less bench flour. I would imagine one could successfully make higher hydrated doughs with wooden fermentation than plastic or glass.

I don't know if dough wetness is an issue for you at this point, but snagging bottoms is a common result. If you want to push hydration even higher, I suspect the dough wetness will just become more of an issue. From your photo the completed dough looks pretty shiny from wetness.

There might be a point where every flour becomes unmanagable due to the high hydration, but I've seen some great pies on this forum with members using high hydration.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: hakgr on September 02, 2018, 04:53:03 PM
Hi hakgr.

Your pizza looks impressive!

Caputo Pizzeria is nowhere to be found in regular stores, so I buy online from YouDreamItaly.com (https://www.youdreamitaly.com/).  :chef:

Hey, Thank you very much :)
Thank you very much for sharing it, I will check it out! What is it like with the customs with importing this?

Great looking pies! What oven do you bake them in?

Thank you. Forno Allegro Nonno Lillo gas. I've replied to you in my thread :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on September 03, 2018, 12:42:55 AM
One issue that's easy to run into with higher hydration is dough wetness during handling and loading. Have you ever tried proofing in wooden boxes, like fi. Craig does? The wood might lower the hydration a little, but that's fine. What I believe is the most useful trait of using wood, is that it dries out the surface and bottom of the dough a little, making them easier to work with and requiring less bench flour. I would imagine one could successfully make higher hydrated doughs with wooden fermentation than plastic or glass.

Wooden proofing boxes is what I normally use. For this last batch I wanted precise temperature control all the way, and the wooden boxes are too big for my fermentation chamber. So I went with plastic.

There might be a point where every flour becomes unmanagable due to the high hydration, but I've seen some great pies on this forum with members using high hydration.

Agreed, and I don't think 68% "should" pose a problem for Caputo Pizzeria. Actually, the first experiment I did in this thread (reply 23) was a similar dough of the same hydration.

This last bake has me scratching my head a bit. During balling, the dough was not sticky at all. It was soft, but it felt nice and firm at the same time. I had to use only tiny amounts of flour. But 6 hours later, the dough balls were slack, sticky and really weak. It was not overfermented, if anything it was slightly underfermented. Did it really lose most of its strength during these last few hours in balls?

Now that I think about it, maybe I should add "shorter total fermentation time" to the list of todos for the next such batch...
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: anfars on September 03, 2018, 02:16:34 AM
Looks very tasty and I'm happy that you're getting closer!

Although your pies looks good, for me, taste and texture is way more important than aesthetics. Handling wetter dough of 68 I find is way different than low 60s.

We seem to have experienced the same thing here, with delicate dough. My first one resulted in the same as yours with the whole in, this was when trying to drag the dressed pie to the peel. I'm also a newbie though... however, if I initially dressed the pie on the peel, everything got easier and I got more practice with the handling.

The best strength I've got when making SD bread is autolyse 30m and doing the stretch & fold during about 2 hours, where I do 4 sets of 5-6 folds every 25-30 minutes. So letting it rest longer between S&F.

Last time I did about 3 sets s&f with 10min intervals and after the bulk it was sticky and loose, difficult to shape the balls.

Great report, as always!  ;D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on September 03, 2018, 09:46:46 AM
This last bake has me scratching my head a bit. During balling, the dough was not sticky at all. It was soft, but it felt nice and firm at the same time. I had to use only tiny amounts of flour. But 6 hours later, the dough balls were slack, sticky and really weak. It was not overfermented, if anything it was slightly underfermented. Did it really lose most of its strength during these last few hours in balls?

Now that I think about it, maybe I should add "shorter total fermentation time" to the list of todos for the next such batch...

I just went through my logs for this summer, looking for what I had written down on the other 68% doughs I'd made. There have actually been a few, five to be exact. Since they had not all been this difficult to handle, I though I'd look for differences.

I think I actually found something noteworthy. I feel stupid not having noticed this before, but on two occations where I made 68% doughs fermented for 20 hours, I am all smiles. The other times I fermented 24 hours or more, and in those notes I complain about handling problems.

In my own quote above, I state that this last batch was not overfermented. Now I'm not so sure. I'm no dough doctor, but I've heard talks of how certain processes in the dough speed up with increasing hydration. Perhaps, then, Caputo Pizzeria at 68% is not well suited for 24 hour ferments. Perhaps backing down a few hours is needed to prevent "breakdown" of the dough.

I cannot calculate the answer to that, but I sure can test it out. Next time.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on September 03, 2018, 09:56:37 AM
Did you use the pluviometer during all those attempts and did you write down the different levels? I find fermentation very difficult to gauge, but I'm hoping the pluviometer will make that task easier. It is of course not an extremely accurate method, but I didn't think small changes would make a very big difference.

As mentioned earlier, maybe humidity or some other force majeure can be enough.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on September 03, 2018, 10:44:48 AM


Did you use the pluviometer during all those attempts and did you write down the different levels? I find fermentation very difficult to gauge, but I'm hoping the pluviometer will make that task easier. It is of course not an extremely accurate method, but I didn't think small changes would make a very big difference.

As mentioned earlier, maybe humidity or some other force majeure can be enough.

Good suggestion, yes I always use the pluviometer. I just went back through the logs again and checked. Alas, no pattern there that I could spot.

(Pluviometer is good to track rise, but that's not the whole story of course. Nevertheless I find it useful to at least dial in yeast amounts.)

As I went through my summer notes this second time around I found more high hydration batches. :-D

Too bad almost, because with these new findings factored in,  the fermentation time pattern is no longer as clear. There were a few additional successful 68% (and above) bakes that were fermented for 24 hours.

Humidity... Could be, but I would be surprised if I found conclusively that humidity was the key factor to explain this. Then again, maybe I just don't want it to be so. I really have no reason to doubt it. :)

Fermentation times are at least easier to control and experiment with I think. :-D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on September 03, 2018, 11:34:04 PM
Thanks Arne for your posts, fun and informative, I always look forward to the next chapter.
Here, the last guests and family have left, leaving a far more open schedule to try once again to make Pizza. So glad to hear that others keep a Pizza Diary or log, - any mention to friends is usually met with a withdrawal in distance, a lean towards the exit and a “you keep track of what????”
All the best with the next chapter!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on September 04, 2018, 01:51:35 AM
Haha I get a lot of that as well. But that's ok. The logs come in handy when trying to figure things out, as memory is treacherous and bends to ones will whether we know it or not. :-)

Thanks for your kind words.

Arne.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: rdbedwards on September 05, 2018, 03:19:01 PM
It seems that you have found a proper solution to the overly delicate doughs (shorter time), but next time you run into the problem, one thing you could try is dressing the pizza whilst on the peel.  It's what I do because I have quite a watery sauce which won't stay in place if I move it to the peel once dressed.  Just be quick to top with sauce and cheese and you should avoid the odd shapes.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: hakgr on September 05, 2018, 05:20:21 PM
Hey Arne,
After reading a few of the earlier posts to this thread I can recommend you to try a different kind of water if you’re using the regular norwegian tap water which is very soft. If you read in the diciplinary from AVPN it states that the water should have a calcium content of 50-80 mg/L and the tap water we have here in norway is nowhere near that. It can be difficult to find bottled water with that high calcium content too, so I always try to remember to bring as much bottled water with me when I’m out travelling trying to find water with around 60-70 mg/L.
After I started experimenting with different water and high hydration I’ve found the dough of VERY different characteristics and the handling and texture of a high hydration dough with harder water is completely different.

I’d recommend you to test it at least if you want to experiment with higher hydration. In my opinion water is an important part of the dough as you normally have between 60 and 70 % of your flour weight, so I think its important to use the «right kind» of water if you can say that.

Let me know what you think :)

Håkon
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on September 05, 2018, 05:30:41 PM
We collect rainwater here for all our water needs, but I use bottled water always for my pizza as I was told some time ago that my water could be too soft . . . . It may well be true, but I have other issues to deal with, so have not repeated a comparison. It would be grand if the switch to bottled would help you.


I recall that Tony G, suggested the change in a question years back
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: andytiedye on September 05, 2018, 05:41:18 PM
We use distilled water (and flour) to feed the sourdough. Our municipal water has chloramine, which is inimical to the growth of sourdough culture.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: rdbedwards on September 05, 2018, 06:03:04 PM
An alternative to buying bottled water is to add calcium to your very soft water.  Calcium sulfate (aka gypsum) can be dissolved in your water ahead of mixing.  There are apps that you can use to calculate the amount.  One popular one for homebrewing is Bru'n Water by Martin Brungard:

https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

A shortcut is that ppm is the acronym for parts-per-million, so that means that for 1L water you have to add 0.1g to obtain 100 ppm of calcium.  So .08g for 1 litre is 80 ppm.  To clarify, ppm and mg/l are equivalent.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on September 06, 2018, 03:07:24 AM
I haven't tried different water myself, but here's a thread where you got Tom, Craig, Peter and others chiming in on the water debate: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=51528.20
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on September 06, 2018, 08:10:39 AM
It seems that you have found a proper solution to the overly delicate doughs (shorter time), but next time you run into the problem, one thing you could try is dressing the pizza whilst on the peel.  It's what I do because I have quite a watery sauce which won't stay in place if I move it to the peel once dressed.  Just be quick to top with sauce and cheese and you should avoid the odd shapes.

Not sure if a proper solution has been found, but it will be interesting to see what happens when I reduce the total fermentation time somewhat. Hopefully this weekend.

Thanks for the tip about dressing on the peel. It seems to be a sound fallback indeed. I can be a little stubborn, though, so I'll probably save that tip for emergencies. ;-)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on September 06, 2018, 08:12:17 AM
Hey Arne,
After reading a few of the earlier posts to this thread I can recommend you to try a different kind of water if you’re using the regular norwegian tap water which is very soft. If you read in the diciplinary from AVPN it states that the water should have a calcium content of 50-80 mg/L and the tap water we have here in norway is nowhere near that. It can be difficult to find bottled water with that high calcium content too, so I always try to remember to bring as much bottled water with me when I’m out travelling trying to find water with around 60-70 mg/L.
After I started experimenting with different water and high hydration I’ve found the dough of VERY different characteristics and the handling and texture of a high hydration dough with harder water is completely different.

I’d recommend you to test it at least if you want to experiment with higher hydration. In my opinion water is an important part of the dough as you normally have between 60 and 70 % of your flour weight, so I think its important to use the «right kind» of water if you can say that.

Let me know what you think :)

Håkon

Hey Håkon, thanks for the tip. That is really interesting. I will definitely try this out. Will report back once I do. :-)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on September 06, 2018, 08:13:48 AM
An alternative to buying bottled water is to add calcium to your very soft water.  Calcium sulfate (aka gypsum) can be dissolved in your water ahead of mixing.  There are apps that you can use to calculate the amount.  One popular one for homebrewing is Bru'n Water by Martin Brungard:

https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/

A shortcut is that ppm is the acronym for parts-per-million, so that means that for 1L water you have to add 0.1g to obtain 100 ppm of calcium.  So .08g for 1 litre is 80 ppm.  To clarify, ppm and mg/l are equivalent.

Thank you for this. I have gypsum at hand so this is totally possible to test out. :-D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on September 06, 2018, 08:15:42 AM
I haven't tried different water myself, but here's a thread where you got Tom, Craig, Peter and others chiming in on the water debate: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=51528.20

Thanks for the pointer. I read through that thread now. Very interesting.

And a lot of opinions.

Think I'll have to do an A/B test for this one.  :chef:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: hakgr on September 06, 2018, 10:19:12 AM
Hey Håkon, thanks for the tip. That is really interesting. I will definitely try this out. Will report back once I do. :-)

Yeah, no worries. I've found the dough handling and characteristics quite different actually and I've been able to use a lot higher hydration with higher calcium water :)
Looking forward to hearing the feedback.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on September 06, 2018, 10:28:31 AM
Yeah, no worries. I've found the dough handling and characteristics quite different actually and I've been able to use a lot higher hydration with higher calcium water :)
Looking forward to hearing the feedback.
I'll give this a whirl myself. The water in Oslo has around 13-20 ppm of calcium. Any specific brands you suggest we look for that you've had success with?

You haven't tried buying calcium sulfate and add to your tap water?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: hakgr on September 06, 2018, 01:29:00 PM
I'll give this a whirl myself. The water in Oslo has around 13-20 ppm of calcium. Any specific brands you suggest we look for that you've had success with?

You haven't tried buying calcium sulfate and add to your tap water?

I haven't tried it yet. I always bring water with me when I'm out travelling. I brought a few (a lot of) bottles of Kildevæld from Denmark this summer. Evian water is 80mg/L, and I bought a few different ones from the UK when I was there. I've been looking for a higher calcium content in Norwegian bottled water but I think the highest I've been able to find is Imsdal with around 10-15mg/L. I can't remember for sure, and didn't look too much for it as I had quite a lot of water already. Let me know if any of you find any water available here in Oslo with around 40-80mg/L calcium! :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: rdbedwards on September 06, 2018, 03:07:01 PM
I just read through the long thread linked above about treating water for calcium and the people there who say it makes no difference seem to be approaching it from a flavour angle, whereas Hakgr discusses differences in handling and texture. 

I'm happy with the flavour and lightness of my NP dough but I wish it was easier to handle.  I'm using water with a calcium content of only 10-15 ppm.  I'm really curious if treating it with calcium sulfate to achieve the recommended 60-80 ppm would improve the dough.  So if you do the experiment please let us know the results!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on September 06, 2018, 03:12:44 PM
I got a pack of Third Wave Water (50-60 ppm calc iirc) that I've experimented with for coffee. Maybe I'll mix up some for a pizza one day.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sub on September 09, 2018, 06:08:02 AM
After I started experimenting with different water and high hydration I’ve found the dough of VERY different characteristics and the handling and texture of a high hydration dough with harder water is completely different.

Yes, hardness should be around 20-22°f   (dough is less sticky, no gumminess in the crust)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on September 09, 2018, 06:51:17 AM
Yes, hardness should be around 20-22°f   (dough is less sticky, no gumminess in the crust)
That's pretty high compared to what others have mentioned. If understand correctly, 20-22 ºf is equal to 200-220 ppm.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on September 09, 2018, 12:22:44 PM
I just performed a small experiment to evaluate how different water hardness (calcium concentration) affects the properties of a dough of relatively high hydration.

Background
A few days ago, hakgr pointed out that the "Disciplinare AVPN" recommends a calcium content of 50-80 ppm. Reportedly, such water will result in a dough with markedly different handling properties and texture compared to a similar dough made with softer water. Heikjo followed up with a pointer to this thread (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=51528.0), where similar comments are made. A few searches on the net revealed plenty of support for this as well.

I have always used water straight from the tap, which contains 20 ppm of calcium according to the municipal water report. When pushing the hydration percentages, I sometimes end up with a dough that is very sticky and difficult to work with. It comes with the territory I guess, but I keep looking for ways to improve or stabilize the situation. This new information about the effect of calcium, including Enzo Coccia's statement that less than 50 ppm of calcium produces a sticky dough (http://www.enzococcia.com/en/water-naples-pulcinellas-secret-neapolitan-pizza/), sparked a hope in me.

Setup
Since so many variables, known and unknown, can affect how a dough turns out, potentially changing from day to day, I figured a direct side by side comparison would give me the clearest possible results. I therefore decided to make two similar doughs simultaneously using the same exact recipe for both, but one of them (dough A) made with straight tap water and the other one (dough B) made with tap water treated with a small amount of gypsum (calcium sulfate dihydrate). Other than that one variable, the doughs were made and handled identically.

Water Treatment
I started off by testing my water using a test kit from Lamotte with a measuring accuracy of 10 ppm. According to my measurements, the calcium concentration in my tap water was about 40 ppm, or about double the amount reported by Asker og Bærum Vannverk (http://www.abvann.no/vannkvalitet/).

So the water used in Dough A had a measured calcium concentration of 40 ppm. The pH was measured to be 6.61.
 
For dough B, the water was treated with gypsum at a rate of .25 grams per liter. Theoretically this should bring the calcium concentration up to around 100 ppm (that's a bit higher than the 80 ppm at the top of the range suggested by the AVPN disciplinary, but it's in line with Tom Lehmann’s suggestion (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=51528.msg518327#msg518327)). My measurements actually showed 140 ppm!

The pH measurement showed 6.54, so slightly more acidic from the gypsum treatment as expected. However, I was surprised by the high calcium measurement. But no worries, I'm still well below 200 ppm which seems to be the danger zone, according to Enzo Coccia (http://www.enzococcia.com/en/water-naples-pulcinellas-secret-neapolitan-pizza/) and Bakers Journal (http://www.triangularwave.com/bakeryeffects.htm) (The Baker's Exchange suggests a more conservative 150 ppm under the same link).


The dough recipe

Total dough mass: 2.225 kg.

A bowl was filled with all of the water, the yeast was dissolved in the water, and then all of the flour was added. I put the bowl on the Santos fork mixer and let it loose. After about 1 minute, I added salt to the mix. Then, after a total of 8 minutes of mixing & kneading, the machine was stopped. Now a series of three stretch-and-folds were executed at 10 minute intervals before the dough ball was put in a temperature controlled fermentation chamber at 20 °C.

Total planned fermentation time: 16 hours (10+6). This is the shortest fermentation time I've ever attempted for NP dough, and a bit shorter than I'd prefer, but for practical reasons I had to go with 16 hours total this time.

Balling
After 10 hours, it was time to ball the dough. Dough A had risen slightly, as expected, but dough B had not. I attribute this to the extra calcium in dough B, which reportedly (http://www.triangularwave.com/bakeryeffects.htm) can retard fermentation, especially at high concentrations. Seems like I should have upped the yeast amount a bit. Too late for that now.

Both doughs felt good in my hands and similar in many respects: Soft, delicate, not very sticky, slightly firm. Dough B did feel a bit stronger/firmer than dough A.

Baking
It had been raining all day long, but we caught a break and the rain stopped just in time for the bake. At that point, the pluviometer level for dough A was 26 mm (perfect), while dough B had reached 23.5 mm (close enough).

I was pleasantly surprised to find that both doughs handled very well. They were both soft and delicate, but they were not overly sticky. They were both strong enough to carry the ingredients with ease onto the peel and slide gracefully off onto the oven floor.

I was also happy to notice that dough B had a bit more strength than did dough A; it just felt a little more robust. So I was able to shed excess flour off B discs by careful slapping. Reluctantly trying the same on a disc made from dough A resulted in tearing. Also, discs from dough B held their shape better during transfer. A couple of the pizzas made from dough A became a little elongated during launch, but none of the pizzas made from dough B had this issue.

Discussion
It was subjectively quite evident that dough B had better handling properties than dough A. This could be due to the difference in calcium concentration/water hardness, i.e. the variable I intended to test.

However, it could also be due to the difference in rate of fermentation: Both doughs received an equal amount of yeast, yet dough B seemed to be lagging about 1.5 hours behind dough A. Presumably this was due to the higher calcium concentration. Whatever the reason, it may be that the difference I experienced was affected by this difference, rather than (or in addition to) the difference in water hardness.

Last week I made a very similar dough, but that time I used 4 hours autolyse and also let it ferment much longer (24 hours vs 16 hours). Comparing that sticky mess with today's relative success says little about the effect of the calcium, but it might say something about the fermentation time (and/or the use of autolyse), which is also an interesting note I think.

Unfortunately no clear conclusion, but very promising. And also very delicious.  :chef:


Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: rdbedwards on September 10, 2018, 03:34:53 PM
Your results are fascinating, thank you very much for conducting the experiment.  It certainly motivates me to try my dough recipe with a harder water.  Could you tell any difference at all in the flavour or texture of the finished pizza crust?  From your pictures it looks as though there may be no difference there.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on September 10, 2018, 04:45:43 PM
Your results are fascinating, thank you very much for conducting the experiment.  It certainly motivates me to try my dough recipe with a harder water.  Could you tell any difference at all in the flavour or texture of the finished pizza crust?  From your pictures it looks as though there may be no difference there.
I was not able to pick out any difference in taste of the finished pizzas; the crust tasted indistinguishable to me. The same goes for the texture.

It was nice to be able to make pizza of 68% hydration with such little headache. That said, I wonder if not last week's goo was slightly more pillowy... Not sure if I'm just imagining. But now I may have to go higher still.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on September 11, 2018, 12:16:13 PM
Again, Very Nice Pizza and an interesting read. The coloration of my Pizza compared to yours drives me crazy, I will have to develop a more careful approach to determine the cause.
This time reading of your love of high Hydration, I recalled my brief foray into 70% a couple of years ago and my reasons for changing back to 64-66% are not as clears as I would like. Perhaps because of my baking, the difference was not compelling enough to continue, perhaps I will look at my notes.
Continue to experiment and post - there a lot out here that appreciate it.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on September 12, 2018, 09:27:36 AM
Again, Very Nice Pizza and an interesting read. The coloration of my Pizza compared to yours drives me crazy, I will have to develop a more careful approach to determine the cause.
This time reading of your love of high Hydration, I recalled my brief foray into 70% a couple of years ago and my reasons for changing back to 64-66% are not as clears as I would like. Perhaps because of my baking, the difference was not compelling enough to continue, perhaps I will look at my notes.
Continue to experiment and post - there a lot out here that appreciate it.

Thanks, Greg. Do check your notes; it would be interesting to hear more about your high hydration escapades. :D

Last year I had more or less standardized on a recipe with 65% water. I always tried to hold back on the flour however, effectively making dough typically around 65-66% and sometimes higher. My real thirst for high hydration (pun alert!) came from tasting the real stuff from Naples and comparing it to my own. I've tried to vary a few variables since then. Surely there are many factors that contribute to the taste and consistency I'm after. However, my personal confidence in water percentage playing a significant part has been strengthened after a summer with lots of very different doughs. The one constant seems to be that I always find the wetter ones the most enjoyable. To eat. To eat!

At my place, NP pizza is a seasonal thing; once we get temperatures below freezing I pack up my oven for the winter. And winter is coming... :'( Soon anyway. I'm hoping to squeeze in a few more before the long cold break.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on September 12, 2018, 10:13:33 AM
I was thinking of Sauzer the other day, his oven is I believe inside his home so he has to take a break during summer, you during winter. I would imagine there are a lot of ovens around the world that shut down due to seasonal changes . . . . . . Not all have an Acunto in a Garage!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on September 12, 2018, 01:55:28 PM
At my place, NP pizza is a seasonal thing; once we get temperatures below freezing I pack up my oven for the winter. And winter is coming... :'( Soon anyway. I'm hoping to squeeze in a few more before the long cold break.
That's too bad. Isn't it able to heat up during winter?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on September 12, 2018, 03:01:14 PM
I would imagine there are a lot of ovens around the world that shut down due to seasonal changes . . . . . . Not all have an Acunto in a Garage!

Indeed.  :(

That's too bad. Isn't it able to heat up during winter?

I haven't tried, but I see no reason it should not work. The main problem is the winter here in Lommedalen, as illustrated below.  :-D

Even though there are (partial) solutions, also shown below, it doesn't work for me/us.

There are upsides to seasonal changes, too, just have to embrace it.  :chef:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on September 22, 2018, 04:03:53 PM
Today I finally got to make pizza again. My earlier experience with gypsum-treated tap water was encouraging, so I wanted to repeat it to gain a little more experience.

The recipe was identical with last week's B dough, except I upped the yeast amounts to account for the calcium's retarding effect:

100% Caputo Pizzeria
68% Tap water treated with 0.25 g/l of gypsum
2.8% Salt
.073% CY

Totat dough mass: 2,225 grams.
Mixing and kneading: 10 minutes in Santos fork mixer.
Same dough making procedure as last time.
Fermentation: 16 hours (9+7) @ 20 °C in temp controlled fermentation chamber.

Measurements showed 170 ppm of calcium after the gypsum addition (and 30 ppm before).

This time the yeast amount was spot on, at least judged by the rise in the pluviometer: 26 mm.

This dough handled beautifully. Not overly sticky, but soft, smooth and with just the right amount of elasticity.

I think I'm starting to believe in this calcium story. I also think a little longer mixing time than the previous batch might have done something good (for the elasticity) .

The pizza was scrumptious (after two weeks without my pizza fix, that's probably a given). We all ate too much but smiled afterwards.

As usual some photos below.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on September 22, 2018, 04:26:24 PM
Very interesting experiments. Starting to sound like something I want to try myself.

Great looking pie. That cornicione is massive!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: schold on September 22, 2018, 04:58:54 PM
Ville and Beshmir @ Lilla Napoli have also conducted an array of experiments with the addition of different salts to the water, but they concluded that the effects were negligible, if my memory serves me correctly.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: pizzadaheim on September 23, 2018, 03:35:00 AM
It looks like sorbillo's now  :chef:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on September 23, 2018, 06:23:33 AM
Very interesting experiments. Starting to sound like something I want to try myself.

Great looking pie. That cornicione is massive!

Thank you, Heikjo. Yes, do try it for yourself!

When learning a new skill, whether that's pizzamaking, beermaking or something else, I always start out listening to experienced people and following their advice strictly. This makes for excellent progress and really fast growth initially. Then after some time, inevitably, I start noticing conflicting advice among what I consider authorities on the subject. My own experience grows as well, and I start questioning parts of what I'be been taught. That's where trying it for myself becomes invaluable.

I don't yet feel confident enough to give fellow pizzamakers solid advice on many subjects. But of this I am sure: When in doubt: try it for yourself. That's what this thread is all about.  8)

Ville and Beshmir @ Lilla Napoli have also conducted an array of experiments with the addition of different salts to the water, but they concluded that the effects were negligible, if my memory serves me correctly.

Thanks for the tip. I searched this forum to see if I could find that on here, but unfortunately no luck. I do have their book, however, and I re-read the section on water. It's short, but I agree with you: they don't seem to consider the water very important.   

In a previous message I've quoted a few sources that say the opposite. Furtunately, testing it out is simple enough.  ;)

It looks like sorbillo's now  :chef:

That's very kind of you. Not giving up on that!  :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: schold on September 23, 2018, 07:32:19 AM
Thanks for the tip. I searched this forum to see if I could find that on here, but unfortunately no luck. I do have their book, however, and I re-read the section on water. It's short, but I agree with you: they don't seem to consider the water very important.   

I think they wrote a bit about this on their Instagram-page. Anyhow, as an experimentalist, I guess you want to find out for yourself :-).
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on October 12, 2018, 04:06:45 PM
We have been fortunate. An unexpected Indian summer extended the pizza season in Lommedalen.

Since last time, I've been making pizza with less experimental focus, settling on a recipe and gaining experience with it. Specifically that means 68% hydration and gypsum enhanced water.

I've attached a few photos from the last bake, starring the Scarpetta as well as a few mushroom variations, including what has to be one of my "best" skateboards to date.  :-D

Now the season is officially over for me, and I'm packing up the oven for the winter. Guess I will have to settle for drooling over your posts for the next few months.


Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on October 12, 2018, 11:30:07 PM
Thank you Arne for your post and contributions, sorry from my point of view that the season has ended there. From here it is hard to picture, it ranged from 7°-14°, with sun, beets still in the garden, but the last of the basil went on last nights somewhat disatrious bake. I am so glad my forefathers left iceland for Canada!
Hopefully my winter attempts will keep you laughing, to keep the chill off. All the best
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on October 13, 2018, 06:14:20 PM
Thank you Arne for your post and contributions, sorry from my point of view that the season has ended there. From here it is hard to picture, it ranged from 7°-14°, with sun, beets still in the garden, but the last of the basil went on last nights somewhat disatrious bake. I am so glad my forefathers left iceland for Canada!
Hopefully my winter attempts will keep you laughing, to keep the chill off. All the best
Greg, I will stay tuned throughout the winter. Laughing, salivating, digesting and cheering.

It's truely great to hang around on this forum. Always looking forward to the next new posts.

Later!

Arne
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: andytiedye on October 14, 2018, 02:53:23 PM
Last solar cooked pizza of the season yesterday (had to finish in the oven).
Soon to commence the woodstove pizza experiment.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Pizzaraider on October 21, 2018, 02:38:34 PM
Hello Arne!

My family and I have reacently been inspired by the delicious pizza in Naples and have bought a WFO. We have made a couple batches of pizzas which turned out OK at best, but we are still learning and trying to improve. The recent batches have been made with "Idun Fullkornsurdeig" since we haven't figured out how to get the so called "ischia-culture".

Since I saw that you also live in Norway I was wondering, how did you get your ischia-starter?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on October 21, 2018, 02:46:27 PM
You can buy it from sourdo.com, but you could also just make your own. I've made my own and used an Ischia from sourdo and I think the pies made with my own starter taste better.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on October 21, 2018, 02:49:43 PM
Hello Arne!

My family and I have reacently been inspired by the delicious pizza in Naples and have bought a WFO. We have made a couple batches of pizzas which turned out OK at best, but we are still learning and trying to improve. The recent batches have been made with "Idun Fullkornsurdeig" since we haven't figured out how to get the so called "ischia-culture".

Since I saw that you also live in Norway I was wondering, how did you get your ischia-starter?

Hi, Isak!

Congratulations on your oven. I purchased the Ischia culture online from Sourdoughs International (sourdo.com). It comes in dry form with instructions on how to activate it. The procedure is pretty well documented on this forum as well.

I have never tried the "Idun Fullkornsdeig". Does it contain wild year/bacteria?

Arne
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Pizzaraider on October 21, 2018, 02:57:30 PM
Hi, Isak!

Congratulations on your oven. I purchased the Ischia culture online from Sourdoughs International (sourdo.com). It comes in dry form with instructions on how to activate it. The procedure is pretty well documented on this forum as well.

I have never tried the "Idun Fullkornsdeig". Does it contain wild year/bacteria?

Arne

At https://www.morshjemmebakte.no/products/surdeig-av-fullkornshvete/ it's says that it's sourdough, but im a bit sceptical since you neither have to feed it or activate it before use.
I think I'll do a little bit of research and make my own sourdough now. If that turns out to be a success and I feel comfortable, I'll probably purchase an ischia-starter.

I know that Heikjo said that reguluar sourdough tasted better, but what is your experience regarding ischia and sourdough in general. What is the difference compaired to normal IDY or CY?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on October 21, 2018, 03:14:49 PM
I know that Heikjo said that reguluar sourdough tasted better, but what is your experience regarding ischia and sourdough in general. What is the difference compaired to normal IDY or CY?

I've been using the Ischia culture for the last three years with very good results overall. It has a nice and subtle flavor contribution when used in quantities around what Craig's chart recommends. Extended fermentation times can lead to a too pronounced acidic flavor in my opinion so personally I try to avoid that.

Cake yeast is a very good substitute, but perhaps with a little less character. My kids prefer this option though, and I like the simplicity and predictability of it (my Ischia culture can be finicky at times).

I am not a fan of dry yeast, mostly because I find it less predictable than fresh yeast. Counter intuitive as it may be... Since fresh yeast is yummy, readily available and also cheap, that's what I opt for when not reaching for the culture.

Other than my Ischia starter for pizza, I have no experience with sour dough. Sorry. :)

Good luck on making your own. Sounds fun!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on October 22, 2018, 02:12:26 AM
I know that Heikjo said that reguluar sourdough tasted better, but what is your experience regarding ischia and sourdough in general. What is the difference compaired to normal IDY or CY?
Sourdough is sourdough. Mine is just different from Ischia, but they are both sourdoughs. It's impossible to tell which culture you would like better.

I have made SD (sourdough) bread for many years and recently also pizzas. It was a big gamechanger for me and I make all my bread and pizzas as sourdough. The most important difference is taste, but I also think SD dough has improved texture.

I've been using the Ischia culture for the last three years with very good results overall. It has a nice and subtle flavor contribution when used in quantities around what Craig's chart recommends. Extended fermentation times can lead to a too pronounced acidic flavor in my opinion so personally I try to avoid that.
Good point. Overly acidic was one of the things I didn't enjoy about my Ischia doughs, but I've only tried 48h at 15C doughs. Maybe I should try a 24h one. I haven't ruled out the Ischia, but need to do more testing.

I have seen other members in here like their own starter better than Ischia, and some like the other culture you get from sourdo (forgot the name) better. Some switch between 2-3 different ones.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on October 23, 2018, 04:59:17 PM
I am a real rookie compared to you guys.  You can get both Ischia Island and Camaldoli starter from Amazon.  I used the Camaldoli first and have no issue with sourness.  I am totally on board with the finnickyness of the starter vs. IDY. I have used both and my wife and guests like the IDY just as well and it is much simpler to use. 
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on October 25, 2018, 06:16:08 PM
Arne, I thought I would add to your mirth . . . .  As I looked at your earlier posts the other day I saw the poor unfortunate pizza that had hit the floor and wanted to assure you that last weeks bake had only two pizzas instead of the usual 3 for the exact same reason. In my case, the now cooked pizza on the peel, bend to pick up wood to add to oven . . Splat! I was luckier than you, mine landed right side up and was, after judicious trimming, quite tasty. Sorry for the missed photo opportunity. Tonight will I hope be better.


Cheers
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on October 26, 2018, 10:45:02 AM
Arne, I thought I would add to your mirth . . . .  As I looked at your earlier posts the other day I saw the poor unfortunate pizza that had hit the floor and wanted to assure you that last weeks bake had only two pizzas instead of the usual 3 for the exact same reason. In my case, the now cooked pizza on the peel, bend to pick up wood to add to oven . . Splat! I was luckier than you, mine landed right side up and was, after judicious trimming, quite tasty. Sorry for the missed photo opportunity. Tonight will I hope be better.


Cheers

:-D Cursed distracting wood work. But you actually ended up with about 2.5 pies then. Glad it sort of worked out. :)

Mine was actually going for the trash before it even slipped (which did not make me any less sad of course).

Good luck tonight, polling your thread for updates.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: josteh on November 07, 2018, 05:24:33 PM
Hi hakgr.

Your pizza looks impressive!

Caputo Pizzeria is nowhere to be found in regular stores, so I buy online from YouDreamItaly.com (https://www.youdreamitaly.com/).  :chef:

Great thread!
I get my caputo bags from Oluf Lorentzen by going through my local store (Spar). 800NOK/ bag, transport Oslo-Bergen included. These two just arrived:-)

@Arne: You beat me to get hold of Solea tomatos. I considered importing from www.specialitadallacampania.it/
The desire for Solea dates back to a Da Michele visit in 2004.. Never had better before or after, the Pizza Marinara in particular was amazing. However you don't seem to be very enthusiastic about your purchase..? For cans sourced locally, La Valle is my definite preference. 

Basil:  I've grown these a few times, big leafs, strong flavor, licorice notes but not in thai basil type of way.. really nice.. https://www.chilternseeds.co.uk/item_1376D_basil_napoletano

j.

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on November 08, 2018, 02:08:52 AM
I'll start making Neapolitan next year so I must start looking for flour. Is it really not possible to find the Caputo Pizzeria anywhere in Oslo? I thought with all the specialist stores someone would have it. Maybe I can ask a local store like you did, josteh. For my consumption, those bags might be a bit much, but maybe they can buy smaller ones.

I don't have the best storage for a 25kg bag, but how long would you say it lasts before you'd notice a difference in the final product? 25kg would last me 1-2 years at the current rate.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on November 08, 2018, 12:14:45 PM
Great thread!
I get my caputo bags from Oluf Lorentzen by going through my local store (Spar). 800NOK/ bag, transport Oslo-Bergen included. These two just arrived:-)

@Arne: You beat me to get hold of Solea tomatos. I considered importing from www.specialitadallacampania.it/
The desire for Solea dates back to a Da Michele visit in 2004.. Never had better before or after, the Pizza Marinara in particular was amazing. However you don't seem to be very enthusiastic about your purchase..? For cans sourced locally, La Valle is my definite preference. 

Basil:  I've grown these a few times, big leafs, strong flavor, licorice notes but not in thai basil type of way.. really nice.. https://www.chilternseeds.co.uk/item_1376D_basil_napoletano

Hi, thanks for good information!

It's true I was not blown away by the Solea cans. That's not to say they weren't any good. They were good. But I had hoped for the Da Michele experience, naive as I may be.

I still have quite a few cans for next summer, they are absolutely usable!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on November 08, 2018, 12:17:19 PM


I'll start making Neapolitan next year so I must start looking for flour. Is it really not possible to find the Caputo Pizzeria anywhere in Oslo? I thought with all the specialist stores someone would have it. Maybe I can ask a local store like you did, josteh. For my consumption, those bags might be a bit much, but maybe they can buy smaller ones.

I don't have the best storage for a 25kg bag, but how long would you say it lasts before you'd notice a difference in the final product? 25kg would last me 1-2 years at the current rate.

I don't mind ordering online. My minimum quantity is 50 kg at a time. If you're interested and have a car, come spring we could split an order.  :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: josteh on November 08, 2018, 04:52:13 PM
Hi
regarding caputo bags:  When I receive the bags they normally have an expiration date some 6months later and I think the flour stays ok in this period. Guess it also depends how you store it.
The two bags I just got expires june 2019.

j.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: rdbedwards on November 08, 2018, 07:13:40 PM
I buy two bags of Caputo blue at a time, and each bag will last for 6 months.  So, the second bag is a year old by the time I've used it up, and I've had no freshness problems or noticed any changes in the dough or pizza.  I do keep the flour in sealed five gallons buckets, though, not in the bags.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on March 24, 2019, 03:39:33 PM
After some long cold winter months we are finally warming up for the pizza season here. I can't wait to get started!

My two sons and I were eagerly shoveling snow to make room for our outdoor "kitchen" earlier today, and we finished the day by unwrapping the oven and building a very small fire as the first step in acclimating it.

My sourdough starter has been taken out of hibernation too. I took it out a few weeks ago and it looks live and kicking now. Guess I'll know for sure soon enough.

If all goes well we are having pizza on Saturday.

Soon. Soon.

:pizza:

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on March 24, 2019, 05:36:53 PM
Great Stuff, looking forward to the year in pizza!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on March 25, 2019, 05:38:29 AM
Great pictures! This time of year is magical. From the cold, dark winter months to sun, thaw and the spring of plants. Looking forward to your pizzas.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on March 25, 2019, 06:42:09 AM
This morning I found my new pot of basil outside on the balcony.  Was just a bit of frost, looks like it's dead  :'(  Was just getting strong and used to the sun.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Irishboy on March 28, 2019, 02:06:56 PM
Subscribe to this thread, what a awesome informative thread you have created I really enjoy all the experiments and look forward to Future readings
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Irishboy on March 28, 2019, 02:09:01 PM
I've decided to get a pluviometer to more accurately judge the fermentation of the dough. After I started using my Ischia starter, I've lost control over the fermentation. It's far more active than my own ever was. Just gotta find a store where they sell them.

I was wondering if you ever take the ball out of the pluviometer during fermentation or just leave it there the entire time. I've seen some take it out at the same time they ball or re-ball a dough, do the same operation as they do on the ball and shove it down again.
Have struggled with the same question but I honestly just keep it in the container the whole time I figured I want to see the exact permutation from point A to point B regardless of bulk fermentation or not..


Arne  forgive me at this was mentioned but are you looking for a doubling in size
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on March 28, 2019, 03:15:20 PM


Arne  forgive me at this was mentioned but are you looking for a doubling in size

Yes, or maybe a little less. According to the volume measurements in the pluviometer, which may not necessarily translate directly to the dough balls, about 75% volume increase is typical for me. I start at about 15-16 and finish somewhere around 26-28.




Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on March 28, 2019, 03:40:43 PM
I usually aim for 25-30, but have made successful pies with 30-45 too.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Irishboy on March 28, 2019, 04:50:52 PM
Thank you guys
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on March 30, 2019, 06:46:38 PM
It's been a long cold wait, but now, finally, I can start making Neopolian style pizza again!

Inspiration

Some weeks ago I stumbled over a relatively recent video of Gino Sorbillo making pizza (I may have found the link on this forum but I'm not sure. In any case I've included the link below). What better way to kick off the season, I thought, than to take advice directly from the master himself.

In the video, Sorbillo uses Caputo Biologica (saying it is "practically a revolution in the world of Neapolitan pizza"). I remember pizzadaheim told me a while back that Sorbillo uses this flour, and now this statement... Ok, I get it, Caputo is sponsoring the show. But still... I bit and ordered a sack. Gotta know what the revolution is all about, no?


Making dough

From the video I gathered the following recipe and process:

Ingredients:


Process:


I tried to replicate this as closely as possible, except I decided to use my Kenwood with spiral hook instead of hand kneading.

After 10 minutes of mixing on the lowest speed I decided the dough was ready for the "puntata", and an hour later the balls were formed. They were now left to ferment at 20.5 °C. While I thought it looked ready after about 11.5 hours, they ended up spending 13.5 hours in balls. The pluviometer showed 29.5 mm at this point, and the dough balls had flattened in a similar way to how they appeared in the video.

As soon as I had transferred the first dough ball to the bancone, the problems started.


Baking trouble

The dough was super weak, extremely stretchable, and had close to zero elasticity. Not good! I drenched the first dough ball in flour and somehow managed to move it over to the peel and into the oven. But things only got worse when I tried to turn the thing, and I eventually had to let it go...

The next few dough balls behaved similarly and after three such attempts I realized there was no way this would lead to pizza today. I therefore decided to re-ball the remaining dough and try again in a short while. Just 15 minutes after the re-balling, I was able to form a decent pie and cook it without issues. This time around the dough was super strong, not very stretchable but overly elastic. Not ideal, I should probably have had the patience to wait longer, but at least the dough did not fall apart and we did get pizza.


Reflection

Looking back, I may have pushed my luck a bit playing with at least three unknown variables right off the bat:

So what went wrong today? I am not sure, but I have a few ideas.

My revolution is still pending.
Any suggestions or pointers are welcome.

Link to the video: https://youtu.be/E4r0tGfTh68
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on March 30, 2019, 07:38:06 PM
Sure. . . . Might as well start out with the easy stuff! I recognize one of those pizzas and thought it was “Canadian style”
Sure a short ferment, like an “emergency dough”, sorry for your troubles, could be translation . . . From square wooden box for mixing to the Kenwood? The Margherita looks good.


Glad you are back baking!


Hope I didn’t curse your post . . .  .
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 04, 2019, 05:29:06 PM
I'm back in Naples and have just come rolling out from Sorbillo.

Their pizza is still perfect. In particular the crust, of course. It has the most heavenly taste, smell and tenderness.

But other than that, the ingredients are stellar and the toppings interesting.

1. Margherita

2. Rudolfo
- prosciutto
- fresh tomatoes
- provola
- ruccola

3. Nonna Carolina
- pesto
- fresh tomatoes
- provola
- basil

Pictures below.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on April 04, 2019, 06:33:12 PM
I am jealously thinking you should be back in Norway! Perhaps a 5 hour jaunt to Naples for you? Grumble, Grumble, try that from here!


OK, enjoy and send back more ideas and pictures, have a glass of fine red and a margherita for me!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on April 04, 2019, 08:47:28 PM
The pizzas look delicious as does the Nastro Azzurro in the background!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on April 04, 2019, 09:16:48 PM
There is a lot to be said for serving whole pizza. The concept of knife and fork, whole pie, makes the problem of  presentation after cutting  a non event. The spinach/prosciutto pizza that has become a favourite looks great - until you try to slice it for four or more guests. “Get Saucy with it” could be a T-shirt, but I guess that may reveal my North American roots.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 05, 2019, 02:25:52 AM


I am jealously thinking you should be back in Norway! Perhaps a 5 hour jaunt to Naples for you? Grumble, Grumble, try that from here!


OK, enjoy and send back more ideas and pictures, have a glass of fine red and a margherita for me!

Thanks, Greg, I will. Not sure we will be even having pizza today, though, as I am traveling with non-obsessed people. ;-)

But tomorrow we have booked both room and table at Pepe in Grani and I shall toast to you in bubbly red if all goes as planned.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 05, 2019, 02:28:02 AM
The pizzas look delicious as does the Nastro Azzurro in the background!
Ah yes the Nastro. One of my friends tried to order the Craft beer branded as Sorbillo and really had to insist. The waiter insisted that Peroni was the correct choice. "Besides, it is a much bigger bottle" he argued. :-D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 05, 2019, 01:46:57 PM
Found cacchio cavallo! Not provola but in the same spirit: smoked and smooth. Looking forward to trying it on pizza.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 05, 2019, 01:48:53 PM
Photo...
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on April 05, 2019, 07:02:11 PM
Nice Arne, I have had both the smoked an non smoked version here and enjoy the texture and flavours.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: communist on April 06, 2019, 08:21:56 PM
Enjoyed your pictures Arne!  Just got back from Italy 4 weeks ago.  I am in United States.  I didn't get down to Naples, but enjoyed da Michele in Rome and Florence.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on April 06, 2019, 09:35:57 PM
Enjoyed your pictures Arne!  Just got back from Italy 4 weeks ago.  I am in United States.  I didn't get down to Naples, but enjoyed da Michele in Rome and Florence.

Is Sorbillo open in Rome yet?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: communist on April 06, 2019, 09:42:49 PM
I had read something on the internet that it was to open in late February.  I was in Rome in early March and was unable to locate it.  Even for da Michele, there are 3 pizza places with the same name in Rome..  The real one is located behind a children’s museum - it wasn’t the easiest to find.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 07, 2019, 08:59:04 AM
Our little vacation in Naples has come to an end. We spent the last night in Caiazzo at Pepe in Grani. It was a night to remember!

I started out with a slice of Ananascosta: A fried pizza cone with fresh pineapple, prosciutto crudo, Grana Padano fondue and liquorish powder. What a great way to kick things off. The combination of fried dough and pineapple as a backbone for delicate pruscuotto and smooth cheese was delightful. The liquorish powder accentuated the dish tastefully. An impressive creation!

As a second appetizer we ordered a La Nero Casertano for sharing among the six of us: tomato sauce, fiordilatte, smoked scamorza cheese, "Nero Casertano" pork sausage, oregano and EVOO served on a soft, puffy crust (cooked just a few seconds too long I thought). Nice!

After skipping it last year, I was eager to finally have the Margherita Sbagliata. I've heard so many good things about this signature pizza and ordered a whole pie just for myself. Halfway through, however, I agreed to swap the second half for a half of Scarpetta from my wife instead. The Sbagliata was very good indeed, but I found it maybe a bit too heavy on the cheese compared to the tomato and basil (although the sauces, when tasted by themselves, were pretty intense in flavor).

The Scarpetta was awesome. I also expected this, since it was by far the best pie I ate in Naples last year. I do feel that they went just slightly too heavy on the Grana cream on this one, however, with the result that the tomato compote was pushed a bit too far into the background. The compote was so flavorful and great when tasted by itself, with a nice acidity and complex tomato flavor. It should not be covered up or hidden by the cheese, no matter how good. Maybe a personal preference, but this slight imbalance is what prevents me from declaring perfection on this pie.

In need of a quick fix and palate cleanser, I ordered a Margherita DOP. It hit the spot! Simply perfect in all respects, all the ingredients worked in perfect harmony with what must be the best crust I have ever tasted. I have learned that Pepe uses fresh local flour and maybe that's what I tasted, or at least part of it. In any case, it was an incredibly flavorful crust, and it was just as soft, tender, delicate and puffy as I could wish for. (By the way, it was equally good for all the pizzas I had, but this is where that point was thoroughly driven home for me.)

Next up: Vindante with mortadella, ricotta, pistacchios and lemon zest. Very beautiful pizza! Also great tasting. Perhaps even more so "on paper" I might add, but that would be nit picking.

The main course was completed with La Ponsa Conciata del '500 with lard, pepper, conciato romano cheese, basil, oregano and fig jam. It was an explosion of flavor and with a slight delicate crunch to it (perhaps from the lard we speculated). The fig jam was really nice and also made it a great segue to the desert.

For desert I ordered a slice of La Crissomola del Vesuvio. It is a fried pizza with ricotta, lemon zest, apricot jam, toasted hazelnuts, dehydrated olives and fresh mint. I could not have asked for anything better. A perfect conclusion to a spectacular dinner.

Some pictures below.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: HansB on April 07, 2019, 09:14:17 AM
 :o Beautiful pizza!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on April 07, 2019, 10:29:26 AM
Thanks so much for the report and pictures it may well be as close as we get. I was so glad to note that there were six in your party considering the amount and variety you were able to try. I look forward to your experiments inspired by the visit . . The Scarpetta posted much earlier, inspired by your last visit looked wonderful.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 14, 2019, 02:58:34 AM
Safely back home, it's finally pizza night again. After my challenging last bake, I decided to go back to my familiar dough and moderate/low hydration this time. I brought home a couple of new (to me) ingrediens from Naples, so the focus this time would be trying out new toppings.

The dough:

The process:

My impressions
The dough was beautiful to work with, from start to finish. Oh joy! And it came out of the oven in great shape. Soft and fluffy, delicate and flavorful, and light. Perhaps not quite as feather light as my higher hydration doughs usually are, but perhaps they don't need to be (I am now planning on trying out "VPN-levels" at 55-58% some time in the future -- I know there are forum members here that swear by it).

Toppings
New on the menu this time: caciocavallo and lardo. Due to bad planning on my part, I did not get a chance to taste them or research them properly before pizza night was over me and I was standing in my kitchen preparing ingredients. I was taken by surprise at how little smoke flavor I could detect in the caciocavallo (I was told it was smoky by the shop keeper in Naples). It was very good though, with a nice and mildly salt and slightly earthy taste to it. The lardo (cured fat) tasted fat and herbs and was not at all as salty as I had expected. Also, while tasty, it was a "low intensity flavor" compared to my expectations.

Some photos below.

1. The obligatory margherita (i just love margherita  :drool:)

2. Tomatos, caciocavallo, sausage, lemon zest, walnuts and pecorino.

3. Caciocavallo, mozzarella, rosemary and lardo

4. Tomatos, mozzarella, caciocavallo, sausage, chili flakes, basil and EVO
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: HansB on April 14, 2019, 07:57:54 AM
Beautiful!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on April 14, 2019, 10:05:49 AM
Damn those are fine looking Pizza! The crust and cornichone look fantastic! Nice range of  flavours and colour.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on April 14, 2019, 12:01:20 PM
You sure did not lose your touch while the oven was covered in snow!!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Irishboy on April 14, 2019, 02:57:16 PM
Beautiful color.


I'll settle on 59% hydration seems like a pretty good balance to me
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 14, 2019, 03:02:21 PM
Thank you all for kind comments, HansB, Greg, sk, IrishBoy. With the well-known ups and downs of this passion, I will remind myself of this wonderful night the next time I make "Canadian Style" pizza. ;-)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 14, 2019, 03:06:20 PM


I'll settle on 59% hydration seems like a pretty good balance to me

I am looking forward to explore this lower range. Funny enough, I've been chasing high hydration for so long...

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on April 14, 2019, 04:14:33 PM
Great looking pies as always, Arne! Good to see you melting the winter away with your oven. I'm not at all jealous of your trip to Naples. Not one bit...

Look forward to your attempts with lower hydration. Tried it myself not long ago and can safely say that 50% hydration is not the way to go. Maybe if you autolyse it for a few weeks. Might not even need starter in it then since it will develop it's own starter.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Irishboy on April 14, 2019, 06:15:06 PM

I am looking forward to explore this lower range. Funny enough, I've been chasing high hydration for so long...
I actually prefer the higher hydration but with my Caputo Pizzeria it's pretty hard to handle past 60% I've came to the conclusion I think it's just a quality control thing cuz I see people like you using higher hydration and mine would be a straight puddle. 59% does pretty good for me I've done less and wasn't a fan
Great looking pies as always, Arne! Good to see you melting the winter away with your oven. I'm not at all jealous of your trip to Naples. Not one bit...

Look forward to your attempts with lower hydration. Tried it myself not long ago and can safely say that 50% hydration is not the way to go. Maybe if you autolyse it for a few weeks. Might not even need starter in it then since it will develop it's own starter.

[/size]
[size=78%] i autolyse one time @ 50% definitely was dry like biscuits. Lol[/size]
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 15, 2019, 10:27:57 AM


Great looking pies as always, Arne! Good to see you melting the winter away with your oven. I'm not at all jealous of your trip to Naples. Not one bit...

Look forward to your attempts with lower hydration. Tried it myself not long ago and can safely say that 50% hydration is not the way to go. Maybe if you autolyse it for a few weeks. Might not even need starter in it then since it will develop it's own starter.

Thanks Heikjo. Did you know Naples just got a little closer to home? Norwegian is starting direct flights there now. Makes things a lot easier if you ask me (not a fan of multi-leg flights).

Haha 50% does sound pretty extreme! Not sure I'll go that far. But perhaps 55 og 56 is worth a shot...? Will se how brave I feel when push comes to shove. :-P
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 15, 2019, 10:31:16 AM


I actually prefer the higher hydration but with my Caputo Pizzeria it's pretty hard to handle past 60% I've came to the conclusion I think it's just a quality control thing cuz I see people like you using higher hydration and mine would be a straight puddle. 59% does pretty good for me I've done less and wasn't a fan [size=78%] i autolyse one time @ 50% definitely was dry like biscuits. Lol[/size]

Yes 60-62% Caputo is rather firm in my experience. Might be a quality issue as you say.

I think the feedback so far is clear: 50% hydration for NP is firmly in the red zone. ;D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on April 16, 2019, 02:12:48 AM
Thanks Heikjo. Did you know Naples just got a little closer to home? Norwegian is starting direct flights there now. Makes things a lot easier if you ask me (not a fan of multi-leg flights).
I did not! That is very interesting. Can get some good prices too. Will of course be expensive pizza, but being able to get to Naples in a shorter amount of time certainly makes a return more likely. Thanks.

Yes 60-62% Caputo is rather firm in my experience. Might be a quality issue as you say.

I think the feedback so far is clear: 50% hydration for NP is firmly in the red zone. ;D
Different batches may have different water content without any quality issues too. Neapolitan is a lot about softness and a tender crust, so I was surprised when I first read about restaurants using below 60%.

Reference on my 50% comment: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=56797.0
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 16, 2019, 06:59:02 AM
Thanks for the link, Heikjo. Very interesting read.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 16, 2019, 05:10:38 PM
Water.

During my most recent trip to Naples, I bottled a half litre of tap water from the place where I stayed (in the city centrer) and brought it back home with me for analysis. I thought it would be interesting to see what's in the mythical Naples water.

Here's what I could measure (precision +/- 10 ppm):

- Chloride: 40 ppm
- Sulfate: < 30 ppm
- Alkalinity: 310 ppm as CaCO3
- Calcium: 230 ppm
- Magnesium: 110 ppm
- Sodium: 10 ppm

I do not know if pizzerias in Naples use this tap water directly and untreated. I also do not know whether my measurements have any practical significance. But I was reminded of my earlier experiments (ref reply 178 and onwards), where I found that adding small amounts of gypsum to my tap water, achieving around 140-170 ppm of Calcium hardness, resulted in a slightly less sticky and more workable high hydration (68%) dough.

Perhaps I'll follow up on last year's water experiments and take it a step further: higher hydration with perhaps even higher calcium concentrations.

Hmmm... And here I was thinking of doing low hydration testing... ;D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on April 17, 2019, 05:31:40 AM
I was googling Neapolitan water when I started out as I have very hard water.  According to google they do too, so I just considered myself lucky and forgot it :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Pete-zza on April 17, 2019, 08:40:51 AM
At one time, Naples 45, a New York City pizzeria specializing in the Neapolitan style of pizza, allegedly used water from Naples and later switched to a domestically produced clone:

Reply 7 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3457.msg29422#msg29422.

Peter
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 17, 2019, 04:27:30 PM
Thanks for interesting info and pointers. I will measure the pH as well once I get back home.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 19, 2019, 10:31:15 AM
For those interested: The pH of my water sample from Naples was 7.12.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: rdbedwards on April 19, 2019, 02:54:23 PM
How does the Naples water taste?  Any noticeable chlorine flavour or odour?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 19, 2019, 05:43:24 PM
How does the Naples water taste?  Any noticeable chlorine flavour or odour?
It tastes minerally to me. I am used to very soft water. There is no evident chlorine flavor or odor to me, only when I hunt for it I think I can detect it faintly in the nose. But not sure if that is just my fantasy or not. :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 21, 2019, 07:37:33 AM
We were having family for pizza this week-end, and pizza was on the menu.

I thought it'd use the opportunity to do some dough experimentation. I wanted to play it safe, so no extreme hydration testing this time. Instead, I decided to put fermentation time to the test and see how it (subjectively) effects various dough properties, both before and after cooking.

Even playing it safe, things did not go according to plan and I ended up no clear results. I though we did make a few observations that may be interesting, so I am going to share this anyway.

The plan seemed solid
I set out to make three identical dough, only varying the amount of yeast in order to have them ready to cook at the same time.

Total fermented times were: 39 hours (A), 24 hours (B) and 10 hours (C), all at 21.7 °C. Each dough would be in balls for the last 8 hours of fermentation.

Recipe

The amount of cake yeast:
These amounts were calculated using Craig's chart as a baseline, and with a scaling factor applied to compensate for how my go-to yeast usually performs relative to the baseline.


Making the dough
The three batches were "staggered" in order to finish at the same time. They all got the same treatment, as per my usual procedure.

Balling
I balled the doughs two hours after making the C batch. At this point I realized I had been sleeping (literally, I had) and not paying enough attention to the ongoing rise.

The 39 hour dough (A) had reached 34 mm in the pluviometer, which means it has more than doubled in volume. Clearly this dough was much further along than I had planned for. It was really weak and sticky at this point, and I had to use some bench flour in the process.

The 24 hour dough (B) had already reached about 21 mm in the pluviometer (a volume increase of about 30%). It was very clear that fermentation had been going on for a while, there were pockets of air "popping" as I shaped the balls. The dough was a little weak, yet noticeably stronger than dough A. It was also a bit sticky, but not too bad. Only a very small amount of bench flour was needed during balling.

The 10 hour dough (C) was nice and firm, yet soft enough to be very easy to work with. I did not have to use any bench flour at all. If folding the ball too many times in on itself, the surface started to tear slightly.

Seems like I've used too much yeast. In an attempt to save the day, I decided to stick doughs A and B in the fridge to halt further fermentation. The already slightly overproofed batch A was taken out again 1,5 hours prior to baking, while dough B was taken out 3 hours prior to baking. The C batch was kept at room temperature for the entire time.

When baking these, it became really apparent that dough A was taken out way too late from cold storage. It was still cold to the touch. Dough B felt too cool too, even though it had had 3 hours at room temp at this point. I have never really refridgerated dough like this before, so I have no experience here. Nevertheless, I had expected 3 hours to be enough to warm up the balls.

Stretching
Dough A, the 39 hour one which was still cool, seemed to have degassed a bit (probably from the cold treatment). It was kind of firm, not very extensible but with good elasticity. It was easy to shape but required a little muscle.

Dough B, the 24 hour batch which was now slightly cool, was a little more airy and was more extensible than A. It also had good elasticity. Other than being a little firm and slightly "flat" feeling, it was great to work with.

C, the 10 hour dough which was at room temperature, was wonderful to handle. It was full of air, nice and soft, and had a very good balance between extensibility and elasticity I thought.


Baking
All pies were baked in a pretty hot oven with bake times ranging from 35 to 45 seconds!

The first thing I noticed right away was that the amount of leoparding increased as the temperature of the dough decreased. C (the dough at RT) cooked a nice relatively even brown. Dough A (rather cool still) expressed a prominent leoparding pattern and did not brown as well. Dough B (temperature somewhere in between A and C) had better browning than A but more pronounced leopart spots than C.

Overall, the cornicione was best expressed on the pies from C, with B a close second. The A-pies seemed to be a little flat sompared to the other ones on average.


Tasting
I made a few simple pizzas with only olive oil, rosemary and salt that we used to compare the taste of the dough. Even with such simple toppings (delicious by the way!), we had to eat the cornicione to really taste the crust.

Crust A (39 hours, cool going in) was slightly dense and perhaps a bit too chewy but had a wonderful taste.

Crust B (24 hours, slightly cool going in) was nice and puffy and super soft. 5/5 for texture and mouth feel. The taste lacked "something" compared to dough A. Still very good, though.

Crust C (10 hours, RT going in) was nice and soft. Some of the guests actually thought they could taste the yeast in this one. I could not, but it was the "simplest tasting" of the bunch, to put it in very precise technical terms.


Random thoughs
This experiment took a nose dive as soon as I put the dough in the fridge, I think. If I hadn't, the dough would probably have been severely over fermented when it was time to bake, but perhaps the results might have been clearer. I don't know. But deciding that feeding the party was more important than feeding my curiosity, I have few regrets...

It is common wisdom that longer fermentation times develop deeper and more complex flavors. I believe we got to experience this, at least to some degree.

I am also left with the clear impression that having the dough at room temperature at bake time is very important to achieve:

Some photos below for visual comparison of the three different crusts.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Irishboy on April 21, 2019, 01:36:18 PM
We were having family for pizza this week-end, and pizza was on the menu.

I thought it'd use the opportunity to do some dough experimentation. I wanted to play it safe, so no extreme hydration testing this time. Instead, I decided to put fermentation time to the test and see how it (subjectively) effects various dough properties, both before and after cooking.

Even playing it safe, things did not go according to plan and I ended up no clear results. I though we did make a few observations that may be interesting, so I am going to share this anyway.

The plan seemed solid
I set out to make three identical dough, only varying the amount of yeast in order to have them ready to cook at the same time.

Total fermented times were: 39 hours (A), 24 hours (B) and 10 hours (C), all at 21.7 °C. Each dough would be in balls for the last 8 hours of fermentation.

Recipe
  • 100% Flour (Caputo pizzeria)
  • 63% Water (soft tap water from Lommedalen)
  • 2.9% Salt (Jozo blue)
  • CY (Idun blue)
The amount of cake yeast:
  • Dough A: 0.014%
  • Dough B: 0.027%
  • Dough C: 0.100%
These amounts were calculated using Craig's chart as a baseline, and with a scaling factor applied to compensate for how my go-to yeast usually performs relative to the baseline.


Making the dough
The three batches were "staggered" in order to finish at the same time. They all got the same treatment, as per my usual procedure.

Balling
I balled the doughs two hours after making the C batch. At this point I realized I had been sleeping (literally, I had) and not paying enough attention to the ongoing rise.

The 39 hour dough (A) had reached 34 mm in the pluviometer, which means it has more than doubled in volume. Clearly this dough was much further along than I had planned for. It was really weak and sticky at this point, and I had to use some bench flour in the process.

The 24 hour dough (B) had already reached about 21 mm in the pluviometer (a volume increase of about 30%). It was very clear that fermentation had been going on for a while, there were pockets of air "popping" as I shaped the balls. The dough was a little weak, yet noticeably stronger than dough A. It was also a bit sticky, but not too bad. Only a very small amount of bench flour was needed during balling.

The 10 hour dough (C) was nice and firm, yet soft enough to be very easy to work with. I did not have to use any bench flour at all. If folding the ball too many times in on itself, the surface started to tear slightly.

Seems like I've used too much yeast. In an attempt to save the day, I decided to stick doughs A and B in the fridge to halt further fermentation. The already slightly overproofed batch A was taken out again 1,5 hours prior to baking, while dough B was taken out 3 hours prior to baking. The C batch was kept at room temperature for the entire time.

When baking these, it became really apparent that dough A was taken out way too late from cold storage. It was still cold to the touch. Dough B felt too cool too, even though it had had 3 hours at room temp at this point. I have never really refridgerated dough like this before, so I have no experience here. Nevertheless, I had expected 3 hours to be enough to warm up the balls.

Stretching
Dough A, the 39 hour one which was still cool, seemed to have degassed a bit (probably from the cold treatment). It was kind of firm, not very extensible but with good elasticity. It was easy to shape but required a little muscle.

Dough B, the 24 hour batch which was now slightly cool, was a little more airy and was more extensible than A. It also had good elasticity. Other than being a little firm and slightly "flat" feeling, it was great to work with.

C, the 10 hour dough which was at room temperature, was wonderful to handle. It was full of air, nice and soft, and had a very good balance between extensibility and elasticity I thought.


Baking
All pies were baked in a pretty hot oven with bake times ranging from 35 to 45 seconds!

The first thing I noticed right away was that the amount of leoparding increased as the temperature of the dough decreased. C (the dough at RT) cooked a nice relatively even brown. Dough A (rather cool still) expressed a prominent leoparding pattern and did not brown as well. Dough B (temperature somewhere in between A and C) had better browning than A but more pronounced leopart spots than C.

Overall, the cornicione was best expressed on the pies from C, with B a close second. The A-pies seemed to be a little flat sompared to the other ones on average.


Tasting
I made a few simple pizzas with only olive oil, rosemary and salt that we used to compare the taste of the dough. Even with such simple toppings (delicious by the way!), we had to eat the cornicione to really taste the crust.

Crust A (39 hours, cool going in) was slightly dense and perhaps a bit too chewy but had a wonderful taste.

Crust B (24 hours, slightly cool going in) was nice and puffy and super soft. 5/5 for texture and mouth feel. The taste lacked "something" compared to dough A. Still very good, though.

Crust C (10 hours, RT going in) was nice and soft. Some of the guests actually thought they could taste the yeast in this one. I could not, but it was the "simplest tasting" of the bunch, to put it in very precise technical terms.


Random thoughs
This experiment took a nose dive as soon as I put the dough in the fridge, I think. If I hadn't, the dough would probably have been severely over fermented when it was time to bake, but perhaps the results might have been clearer. I don't know. But deciding that feeding the party was more important than feeding my curiosity, I have few regrets...

It is common wisdom that longer fermentation times develop deeper and more complex flavors. I believe we got to experience this, at least to some degree.

I am also left with the clear impression that having the dough at room temperature at bake time is very important to achieve:
  • nice browning (the way I like it anyway)
  • soft and fluffy cornicione
  • the "right" amount of chewiness in the crust
Some photos below for visual comparison of the three different crusts.
Awesome post! I like the way the pie C lools, gteat color
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: HansB on April 21, 2019, 02:12:46 PM
Awesome post! I like the way the pie C lools, gteat color

^^^
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: schold on April 21, 2019, 03:12:06 PM
This is very similar to how I make my dough - hydration is a bit lower but then again I use a different flour, so makes no point really to compare. And 3% salt is the sweet spot for me.

Anyway, I use the very same fresh cake yeast (it may be my imagination, but I prefer the taste of cake yeast over the dry stuff). One thing to keep in mind, however, and which complicated the use of CY, is that its water content varies. I once contemplated drying it, finding the dry weight and then factoring this into the amount of yeast used.

But instead I've opted for just buying a new one each time and make sure it's fresh.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on April 21, 2019, 03:28:29 PM
I never knew CY changed hydration during storage. Even if it's stored in a closed container? If you compare a fresh one to one stored a week in the fridge, how big of a difference is it?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 21, 2019, 05:40:57 PM
I believe yeast will start dying more and more as one gets gloser to the expiration date, so I have been keeping track of the age of my yeast and factoring that in when doing yeast estimation. However, like Heoljo, I never thought about evaporation. Interesting point. Give me a week and I'll get back with some measurements.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: schold on April 21, 2019, 06:10:05 PM
I highly doubt that the old-fashioned blue cubes of Idun fresh yeast are a great seller in any Norwegian store. It is wrapped - however not airtight by any means. So even if you take good care of it, the yeast may quite likely have spent a significant time in the store refrigerators - a device which keep foodstuff cold, of course, but at the same time, by its very mechanism, also has a pronounced drying effect.

Its like clay when it is truly fresh; it gets increasingly crumbly as it dries. Given the small amounts we use, I believe the above-mentioned hydration effect is significant, but I've never done any thorough testing.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on April 21, 2019, 07:35:07 PM
The sausage and stray corn pie looks great.  Not that the others don't, it was my favorite of the choices.  PS:  I found the corn!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 22, 2019, 04:51:16 AM
Its like clay when it is truly fresh; it gets increasingly crumbly as it dries. Given the small amounts we use, I believe the above-mentioned hydration effect is significant, but I've never done any thorough testing.

Yes I think you are on to something, it just has not occurred to me before.

I wonder if there is a difference in vitality on the outer surface and inside the cube too...

Maybe I'm starting to over-think this.  :-D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 22, 2019, 04:54:16 AM
But instead I've opted for just buying a new one each time and make sure it's fresh.

This is my strategy as well. Seems to work pretty consistently -- with a few notable exceptions.  :chef:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 26, 2019, 03:44:36 AM
How does mixing time affect the workability of a high hydration dough?

I am pondering this in my ongoing pursuit for mastering high hydration NP dough. I am very fond of the supreme lightness of the crust that I get with a water to flour ratio of about 65% and above. So I want to explore still higher hydration (*1). With my current technique, workflow and ingredients, however, I start having trouble once I get to the 67-68% mark. As I've shown earlier, the trouble is mainly that the dough is too sticky and too weak.

Background
I must admit that I've had difficulty with comprehending the concept of "punto di pasta" for a long time. So I've aimed to keep my mixing time relatively constant, where it usually gives good results.

With time I am finally getting more confident about my dough reading capabilities. Looking at my high hydration dough coming out of the mixer, it seems unreasonably "liquid" to me. While I certainly do not expect a 70% dough to look and behave like a 60% dough, I am starting to realize (read: hypothesize) that wetter dough needs more mixing time to reach the desired consistency.

Longer mixing time contributes to a more fully developed gluten network and more strength (*2). This could be a good thing for the handling properties of the dough. However, it also increases the final temperature of the dough and the level of oxygenation, which might affect other important qualities like taste, texture and visual appearance.

With bad pizza weather expected for the next few days, I thought it was a perfect time to "ignore" the eating part and do a technically focused experiment.

Setup
I decided to make three different variants of the high hydration dough, where the mixing time varied from my typical 10 minutes to as high as 30 minutes.

- 100% Flour (Caputo Pizzeria)
- 69% Water (Tap water, enriched with .4 g/L of gypsum to harden it up a bit)
- 2.9% Salt (Jozo blue)
- 0.039% CY (Idun blue)

Fermentation time: 21 hours (18+3) at 21 °C.

I used my Kenwood with spiral hook for mixing, starting at minimum speed, gradually increasing to about 30% speed (the 2-mark) during the first 10 minutes. The three different variants were made by pulling off a part of the dough from the mix at different times. Each variant was dumped onto the kitchen counter and given a couple of stretch & folds before being placed in a bowl and covered with plastic wrap.


I took 80 grams of each variant and placed in individual pluviometers in order to track any differences in rise that might occur.

At this point, as a "strength test", I also made two 250 grams dough balls: One from A and one from C. I placed them in a dough tray and left them untouched for later visual inspection.


Balling
The pluviometers were checked just before balling. While I had expected the warmer doughs to get a head start, I saw very similar rises for all three variants: They sat at around 21-22 mm, or about 40% expansion.



Shaping
Just three hours later, the pluviometers showed about 26 mm, which is usually what I aim for. It's time to stretch out some skins.

Dough A was no longer particularly sticky. However, it was very weak. I was not able to form a balanced crust: There were several thin spots and the rim tended to contain too much dough. Placing "ingredient substitutes" and simulating a dragging to the peel resulted in tearing. A very difficult dough to work with, which was exactly as expected, really.

Dough B had firmed up a bit, and it now felt almost too stiff! I was able to form beautiful discs with just a little dusting of flour. It had a nice surface tension I thought. I could also load it with "ingredients" and move it around with ease, see picture 4.

Dough C was really stiff. It was difficult to shape, not because it was too weak but because it was too strong! It took force to extend, and it tended to pull right back. Rubber band comes to mind. Had I not known it was a 69% dough, I would never have believed it.

I now opened the dough tray containing the two 250 gram balls. As expected, they had flattened considerably. The A-ball almost looked like a puddle. The C-ball flattening was not quite as severe. See picture 5 below.


My thoughts
I learned a lot from this test. First and foremost, I now understand better the effect of mixing. I obviously went overboard with 30 minutes, but it was a really instructive experience. I almost cannot believe that the C variant behaved like it did in the end. I had not thought it possible prior to this experiment.

The main practical takeaway for me is that the next time I am going to make a 69% dough, I should adjust the mixing time. 10 minutes is too short, 30 minutes is way too long, and 20 minutes is probably also a bit too long. Maybe go for 15 and take it from there. Use very cold water to counter the temperature rise from an extended mix. Also, based on earlier trials, keep the time in balls relatively short (4 hours give or take seems reasonable). Maybe hardening up the water is useful too.

Can't wait to try. And taste it. Meanwhile, I am keeping my fingers crossed that taste, mouthfeel and aesthetics do not suffer from an extended mixing…


Footnotes

(*1) Also, I want to explore low hydration, but that's a topic for another day. :-)

(*2) Long fermentation also contributes to dough strength, but perhaps this factor is not sufficient once the water to flour ratio gets high enough?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Pete-zza on April 26, 2019, 10:16:53 AM
Arne_Jervell,

Those were some interesting and informative experiments you conducted. In fact, they reminded me of a thread where a dough was made with a hydration of just under 100%, and how one had to use a very long machine knead time to get the dough to a workable stage. Also, parchment paper was used to make it easier to work with the dough. I think you may find that thread, as well as the embedded link to https://sites.google.com/site/hollosyt/quickrusticciabattapizza, of interest. The thread is at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8539.msg73858#msg73858

Peter

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on April 26, 2019, 10:40:44 AM
Would a high hydration dough that's given a lot of machine mixing open easier if you left it longer in balls to give it more time to relax?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 26, 2019, 12:05:41 PM


Arne_Jervell,

Those were some interesting and informative experiments you conducted. In fact, they reminded me of a thread where a dough was made with a hydration of just under 100%, and how one had to use a very long machine knead time to get the dough to a workable stage. Also, parchment paper was used to make it easier to work with the dough. I think you may find that thread, as well as the embedded link to https://sites.google.com/site/hollosyt/quickrusticciabattapizza, of interest. The thread is at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8539.msg73858#msg73858

Peter

Thank you so much Peter, very much of interest.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 26, 2019, 12:11:21 PM
Would a high hydration dough that's given a lot of machine mixing open easier if you left it longer in balls to give it more time to relax?
Yes, I believe it would. On the other hand there might be oxidation issues with a dough mixed to hard/long, so perhaps better to keep mixing as gentle as practically possible.

Come to think of it, I should have baked those pies...
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on April 26, 2019, 12:13:06 PM
Thank you once again for the detailed experiment, something I can give ponder to as I make my dough. For me  as the hydration goes higher I do more stretch and folds usually with 15 minutes for the first couple and decreasing to 10 in the later stretch and folds. I usually with no experiments to back it up, stop the s&f when the ball seems to leave no residue on my hands. I had not really considered longer time in the mixer, or in fact increasing the speed of mixing.
Tight reluctant dough gets a few stern words and where possible a longer time in ball, usually 6 hours. I look forward to the forming and baking follow up.


Cheers!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on April 26, 2019, 12:47:17 PM
Thank you once again for the detailed experiment, something I can give ponder to as I make my dough. For me  as the hydration goes higher I do more stretch and folds usually with 15 minutes for the first couple and decreasing to 10 in the later stretch and folds. I usually with no experiments to back it up, stop the s&f when the ball seems to leave no residue on my hands. I had not really considered longer time in the mixer, or in fact increasing the speed of mixing.
Tight reluctant dough gets a few stern words and where possible a longer time in ball, usually 6 hours. I look forward to the forming and baking follow up.
I have found that for me, as a rookie, 62%-63% is about all I can handle.  Following Greg's advise of working it until I get no residue on my hands seems to fall in that range.  However, I pose this question.  I mix, s&F until no residue, store it in the Tupperware for bulk and then when I make it into balls, it is very sticky again.  I usually spray and little non-stick spray on the bench to form the bulk into balls.  Is that what seems to happen?

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 26, 2019, 01:05:15 PM


Thank you once again for the detailed experiment, something I can give ponder to as I make my dough. For me  as the hydration goes higher I do more stretch and folds usually with 15 minutes for the first couple and decreasing to 10 in the later stretch and folds. I usually with no experiments to back it up, stop the s&f when the ball seems to leave no residue on my hands. I had not really considered longer time in the mixer, or in fact increasing the speed of mixing.
Tight reluctant dough gets a few stern words and where possible a longer time in ball, usually 6 hours. I look forward to the forming and baking follow up.


Cheers!

Cheers, Greg. I love your approach. Trust your senses and adjust casually. I'd follow the same path it I wasn't such a petimeter. ;-)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on April 26, 2019, 03:08:45 PM
No one said my approach led to success . . . . It seems always to lead to . . Next time I will do this, usually spoken with pizza in hand, glass of red at the ready.  I admire those here who approach with a scientific knowledge of fermentation, chemistry and the make up of the dough and who take an orderly approach. My hope is that like a street vendor, you begin after a while to get the feel and it starts to work consistently. Learning is fun no matter which path you take.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on April 26, 2019, 06:10:46 PM
This discussion ties into what I've been learning lately. I wanted to start a discussion about it once I'd learnt a bit more, but this seems a good place and time.  My experience is strictly related to hand mixing, and I don't know how using a mixer would change things.

I've been frequenting the Italian forum https://laconfraternitadellapizza.forumfree.it for a while.
Apart from the hard to identify "punto di pasta" they also use the verb "incordare" and the noun "incordatura".  Though spending time thinking about it, I don't think I can translate those terms into English..  It describes developing the gluten mesh and to what stage.

Edit: Hmm, I pressed save instead of preview...  I'm not finished with this post and it's late, so I'll have to continue it some other time...:)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on April 27, 2019, 12:50:27 AM
I love it . . .  I just looked up petimeter, not understanding the word, and found for its replacement a “true” English translation, which gave me great laughter . .   . . .  “Fusspot” - likely a word anyone not having links to the oddities of English language would ever conjure up, but wow so appropriate. I will always now consider my qualities to include petimeter. Thank you!


Wow, the things you can learn here!


Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 27, 2019, 02:21:15 PM
I love it . . .  I just looked up petimeter, not understanding the word, and found for its replacement a “true” English translation, which gave me great laughter . .   . . .  “Fusspot” - likely a word anyone not having links to the oddities of English language would ever conjure up, but wow so appropriate. I will always now consider my qualities to include petimeter. Thank you!


Wow, the things you can learn here!
Haha yes sorry I didn't even realize the word I used was Norwegian. Glad you enjoyed that little nugget it turned out to be though. :D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on April 27, 2019, 03:28:40 PM
To continue from where I left off, though I despair at explaining what I'm just beginning to understand.  It's also quite a wide topic and it's difficult to put into just a few words... :)

The advice I receive from my Italian friends is to hand mix for about 20 minutes...  Most of us have probably read about how Italians start with the water, salt and yeast.  Then proceed to add the flour handful by handful as they mix and finally knead the dough until the "punto di pasta".  This seems to be because you arrive at the "punto di pasta" after about 20 minutes, and if you have left over flour then don't add it, as continuing to knead the pizza will lead to a too strong "incorditura", an elastic dough and a gummy pizza.  So they seem to search for the "punto di pasta" instead of hitting a specific hydration.

For me the "punto di pasta" is when the dough starts to dry up but is still soft and fluffy, if I go beyond this point then I can feel how the dough gets more tense and heavy so to speak.  At this point the dough isn't super smooth in appearance, but when balling later you get a smooth skin on the balls.

This also ties into the length of time that you leave the dough in bulk/balls as you'd want the balls to relax again to avoid an elastic dough and a gummy pizza, on the other hand a tighter dough will hold more water and be less sticky.  There seem to be an infinite amount of possibilities here, depending on flour used, kneading technique, personal preferences, etc.

I find it interesting that you found the best dough after 20 minutes of kneading with a machine, while I find the same kneading by hand!  I also realize that I've been making the dough too tight (too much incordatura), which has not really been to the point that I've had problems with an elastic dough, but I have been making much chewier pizza in the past, than what I've produced lately.  I've also been guilty of making the dough too tight when balling.  For the normally around 8 hours I leave them in balls, I seem to need a lot less "incordatura" than what I normally made while balling.

Not sure if I'm being intelligible and able to bring across what I'm learning right now :)  I had wanted to write more, but realize that I'm just likely to be confusing, so I'll leave that for another day :)

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on April 27, 2019, 04:34:20 PM
20 minutes by hand sounds a lot to me. I normally just mix until somewhere distributed, leave it 20 minutes, do some folding, repeat 2-3 times and done.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 28, 2019, 02:53:42 AM
Amolapizza, thanks for a thoroughly thought provoking response.

The advice I receive from my Italian friends is to hand mix for about 20 minutes...  Most of us have probably read about how Italians start with the water, salt and yeast.  Then proceed to add the flour handful by handful as they mix and finally knead the dough until the "punto di pasta".  This seems to be because you arrive at the "punto di pasta" after about 20 minutes, and if you have left over flour then don't add it, as continuing to knead the pizza will lead to a too strong "incorditura", an elastic dough and a gummy pizza.  So they seem to search for the "punto di pasta" instead of hitting a specific hydration.

That's a very interesting perspective on punto di pasta that you relay above.

I have learned to fear gummy (and/or too chewy) crust, and that fear is probably always lurking in the back of my mind and may be part of the reason why I have kept my mixing times short. When I went to the extreme in my latest experiment and let the machine work for 30 minutes, I "knew" that I could never cook that pizza as it would be inedible. Alas, I now regret that I did not cook it.  :-D

For me the "punto di pasta" is when the dough starts to dry up but is still soft and fluffy, if I go beyond this point then I can feel how the dough gets more tense and heavy so to speak.  At this point the dough isn't super smooth in appearance, but when balling later you get a smooth skin on the balls.

Good description. It resonates with me, and I think I would add that the dough must also tense up somewhat. It may not necessarily be than important when hydrations is in the low 60s, but when higher hydration is targeted, I think it is important to build good strength into the dough right from the start. That's my theory now at least; that the strength that comes from a long fermentation may not be enough in these cases.

This also ties into the length of time that you leave the dough in bulk/balls as you'd want the balls to relax again to avoid an elastic dough and a gummy pizza, on the other hand a tighter dough will hold more water and be less sticky.  There seem to be an infinite amount of possibilities here, depending on flour used, kneading technique, personal preferences, etc.

Yes, the time in balls is a very important consideration (which I more or less neglected for too long -- it was only last year, when pizzadaheim pointed this out to me, that I opened my eyes to this). It must be long enough to allow the balls to relax sufficiently, but leave them for too long and they may become too relaxed and difficult to work with. For high hydration dough in particular, I think this parameter has a huge impact.

I find it interesting that you found the best dough after 20 minutes of kneading with a machine, while I find the same kneading by hand!

Yes, of the three doughs, the 20 minute machine kneaded one was the best. Just to be clear though, I also believed that the 20 minute one probably should have received less kneading time (perhaps 15 minutes). The reasons for me saying this is mostly fear of oxidation and chewiness. It also seemed too strong. Perhaps they should have staied longer in balls too (or instead), as Heikjo hinted at.

I also realize that I've been making the dough too tight (too much incordatura), which has not really been to the point that I've had problems with an elastic dough, but I have been making much chewier pizza in the past, than what I've produced lately.  I've also been guilty of making the dough too tight when balling.  For the normally around 8 hours I leave them in balls, I seem to need a lot less "incordatura" than what I normally made while balling.

What is your typical hydration in this context?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on April 28, 2019, 10:48:39 AM
20 minutes by hand sounds a lot to me. I normally just mix until somewhere distributed, leave it 20 minutes, do some folding, repeat 2-3 times and done.

I thought so too, but turns out not to be the case.  Most of the time is actually spent with a relatively liquid batter as it's just in the last minutes that it really comes together as a dough.  I do my best to incorporate air into the dough at this stage, which seems to make the dough fluffier and lighter.  I'll try to remember to make a photo of the dough once it's finished.  If I cut it in the middle, one can see how it's full of pockets of air which I think is a positive thing.

I used to make the dough as you do, and I still do when I bake my weekly bread.  It appears to me that S/F is a nuclear weapon as it seems to really create a lot of gluten web.  IMO it seems very easy to overdo it, at least for pizza.  When I make bread I do want a strong dough though..

Let me link a few videos where the founder of the Confraternita hand mixes the dough.  It's the technique I try to follow when mixing my own dough.  Note how a lot of the time is spend whisking the dough instead of kneading it, this seems to incorporate air instead of making the dough dense and tight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuIKJ6V3h1M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EQ33Zi1eyM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gynxc6l_wsg
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 28, 2019, 10:50:03 AM
One thing to keep in mind, however, and which complicated the use of CY, is that its water content varies.

I never knew CY changed hydration during storage. Even if it's stored in a closed container? If you compare a fresh one to one stored a week in the fridge, how big of a difference is it?

I wanted to know this too!

On April 21st, I started measuring the same 50 gram cube of Idun blue (expiry date may 16th) every evening for 8 consecutive days. Each day, I took three readings and averaged them.

Before and during the measuring period, the cube was kept unopened in it's original packaging in the door of my fridge -- just like I normally keep it before use (similar to how it's typically stored in the store I'm guessing).

In short, my cube lost 1.814 grams in one week.

As the chart below indicates, the drop was pretty linear over this time period. I will keep tracking it for a few more days just for fun.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: schold on April 28, 2019, 11:12:22 AM
Haha, you did the experiment! Are you an analytical chemist by profession?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: PizzAmateur on April 28, 2019, 11:16:46 AM
I wanted to know this too!

On April 21st, I started measuring the same 50 gram cube of Idun blue (expiry date may 16th) every evening for 8 consecutive days. Each day, I took three readings and averaged them.

Before and during the measuring period, the cube was kept unopened in it's original packaging in the door of my fridge -- just like I normally keep it before use (similar to how it's typically stored in the store I'm guessing).

In short, my cube lost 1.814 grams in one week.

As the chart below indicates, the drop was pretty linear over this time period. I will keep tracking it for a few more days just for fun.

Could it be that it is not in an air tight wrapper, but in just a plain  paper (waxed paper) wrapper that is not air tight?

I really am asking, because I really don't know either.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 28, 2019, 11:23:30 AM
Haha, you did the experiment! Are you an analytical chemist by profession?
No, I'm just an ordinary fusspot. ;)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 28, 2019, 11:25:24 AM


Could it be that it is not in an air tight wrapper, but in just a plain  paper (waxed paper) wrapper that is not air tight?

I really am asking, because I really don't know either.

Yes, I believe you are spot on.

So I wanted to find out how much evaporation is going on in "standard conditions".
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: PizzAmateur on April 28, 2019, 11:30:17 AM

Yes, I believe you are spot on.

So I wanted to find out how much evaporation is going on in "standard conditions".

I think you already have a good estimate with your graph for a week given how linear it is.   ;D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on April 28, 2019, 11:42:53 AM
Amolapizza, thanks for a thoroughly thought provoking response.

That's a very interesting perspective on punto di pasta that you relay above.

Thanks, I wish I understood it better myself, and that I was better at expressing my understanding..  Somehow it all seems related, how much hydration, how much kneading, how long it's left in puntata/apretto, etc.  Still it's nice to slowly gather understanding and to advance in the craft :)

Quote
I have learned to fear gummy (and/or too chewy) crust, and that fear is probably always lurking in the back of my mind and may be part of the reason why I have kept my mixing times short. When I went to the extreme in my latest experiment and let the machine work for 30 minutes, I "knew" that I could never cook that pizza as it would be inedible. Alas, I now regret that I did not cook it.  :-D

Yes maybe you would have learnt something from baking it, but I'm pretty sure it would have been very chewy, not Neapolitan at all.. :)  Another trick I've picked up reading the Italian forum is that apparently adding fat helps to combat gummy/chewiness.  So if you add some oil or other fat you can "incordare" more without getting a pizza that is too chewy.

Quote
Yes, the time in balls is a very important consideration (which I more or less neglected for too long -- it was only last year, when pizzadaheim pointed this out to me, that I opened my eyes to this). It must be long enough to allow the balls to relax sufficiently, but leave them for too long and they may become too relaxed and difficult to work with. For high hydration dough in particular, I think this parameter has a huge impact.

I don't have any experience with high hydration dough for Neapolitan, nor with using a mixer.  I do make an 80% hydration noknead dough for pizza in teglia.  For that dough, time and S/F does all the work. Still I suspect it would be hard to extend a Neapolitan pizza from it.  It's also way more fermented when I form the panietto and when I extend it after the apretto.

My kitchen aid didn't seem very good for making dough, more for just slapping the dough around.  Maybe I'll revisit using it someday with my new understanding of making dough for Neapolitan, though I think I've damaged the gears slightly making high hydration dough for pizza in teglia :)

I think that finding the right balance between "incordatura" and the time in balls is very important.  You want balls that are easy to open, and don't produce a gummy/chewy pizza, but still have just enough strength and elasticity to create a skin with no weak spots or tearing.  From what I'm learning how you make the balls and how tight you make them is very important at this point.  Here is another video that shows a method to make the balls without making them overly tight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=577B9H3hkuI

Quote
What is your typical hydration in this context?

I've been targeting 62% hydration with Caputo pizzeria (blue 25kg sack).  Lately I've probably been up to 64-65% when I've been slow at adding the flour and thought I'd already reached the "punto di pasta", but still had flour left over.  Didn't measure how many grams were left over, but it wasn't a huge amount.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: PizzAmateur on April 28, 2019, 12:15:30 PM
Thanks, I wish I understood it better myself, and that I was better at expressing my understanding..  Somehow it all seems related, how much hydration, how much kneading, how long it's left in puntata/apretto, etc.  Still it's nice to slowly gather understanding and to advance in the craft :)

Yes maybe you would have learnt something from baking it, but I'm pretty sure it would have been very chewy, not Neapolitan at all.. :)  Another trick I've picked up reading the Italian forum is that apparently adding fat helps to combat gummy/chewiness.  So if you add some oil or other fat you can "incordare" more without getting a pizza that is too chewy.

I don't have any experience with high hydration dough for Neapolitan, nor with using a mixer.  I do make an 80% hydration noknead dough for pizza in teglia.  For that dough, time and S/F does all the work. Still I suspect it would be hard to extend a Neapolitan pizza from it.  It's also way more fermented when I form the panietto and when I extend it after the apretto.

My kitchen aid didn't seem very good for making dough, more for just slapping the dough around.  Maybe I'll revisit using it someday with my new understanding of making dough for Neapolitan, though I think I've damaged the gears slightly making high hydration dough for pizza in teglia :)

I think that finding the right balance between "incordatura" and the time in balls is very important.  You want balls that are easy to open, and don't produce a gummy/chewy pizza, but still have just enough strength and elasticity to create a skin with no weak spots or tearing.  From what I'm learning how you make the balls and how tight you make them is very important at this point.  Here is another video that shows a method to make the balls without making them overly tight:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=577B9H3hkuI

I've been targeting 62% hydration with Caputo pizzeria (blue 25kg sack).  Lately I've probably been up to 64-65% when I've been slow at adding the flour and thought I'd already reached the "punto di pasta", but still had flour left over.  Didn't measure how many grams were left over, but it wasn't a huge amount.

My apologies if I missed it, but what do you mean by "incordatura"?  Can you give me an example?

Thanks and sorry for my ignorance and lack of knowledge of this entire thread.

BTW, the video is very similar to how I ball for my "American" style pizzas.  Although I am not that fast!  :D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on April 28, 2019, 12:29:25 PM
My apologies if I missed it, but what do you mean by "incordatura"?  Can you give me an example?

Yes I commented a few posts back that I've come across a word in Italian that seems to have no direct translation in English, at least in the context of baking.  Still the Italians use it all the time when discussing making dough.  As a noun it's "incordatura" and as a verb it's "incordare".  From the context of its use, I've understood that it describes the forming of the gluten mesh.

Possible translations in other contexts are to weave or to string.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: PizzAmateur on April 28, 2019, 12:38:35 PM
Yes I commented a few posts back that I've come across a word in Italian that seems to have no direct translation in English, at least in the context of baking.  Still the Italians use it all the time when discussing making dough.  As a noun it's "incordatura" and as a verb it's "incordare".  From the context of its use, I've understood that it describes the forming of the gluten mesh.

Possible translations in other contexts are to weave or to string.

Thanks!

The only thing I could think of was some of the pictures I have seen on this site of dough that had fermented to the point that they were "stringy" with gluten.  My own experience with doughs that have reached that point is not necessarily good.  The no-knead and hand kneaded doughs I have made have sometimes looked like that, but since I went back to using my food processor for making my small batches of dough, I no longer see that.  And it seems to be a good thing for my American style pizzas in a 550°F oven.

My moniker, PizzAmateur is fitting!  :P

Thanks again for the reply!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on April 28, 2019, 01:37:31 PM
I find it peculiar that the Italians seem to have a singular concept which we in the English speaking world describe in various circumstantial ways.  It seems that it's this process of "incordatura" that leads to "punto di pasta".

Don't forget that we are discussing Neapolitan pizza, it's more than possible that all of our concerns don't apply to other pizza styles.. :)

I'm also an amateur and take great pleasure in advancing my pizza making.  The vast majority I've made the last few years were very tasty and most of them way better than I can get in a pizza joint around here.  So there is something to be said for being an amateur :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on April 28, 2019, 02:14:46 PM
I won't attempt to quote anything on mobile, so I'll drop that.

@Arne: I assumed you would do such a test. It lost 3.682% of the original weight, which I doubt would make a huge difference to the final result. There may be other variables in the process causing larger variations than that.

@Amolapizza: Thanks for explaining and the videos. This forum possess a wealth of information and knowledge, but at the same time there are many forums out there in other languages, especially Italian, which we could learn from. It's very good having someone who knows the language spend time on both forums. I've read some on La confraternita myself, but often get lost in those words you also struggle to translate to English, or even explaining what is meant.

I'll take a look at the videos when I get the time. Would live to hear your experiences on dough handling and mixing when you work on it. I used a Kenwood mixer before, but at some point gave up and used my hands instead. I did get a spiral hook, but even then it spent most of the time riding in circles on the hook. I also usually make 1-3 pies, and the normal sized machines are simply not a very good fit for such small amounts.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on April 29, 2019, 11:49:09 AM
Arne . . An out of curiosity question . . . Have you noticed a difference in flavour using cake yeast as opposed to  a dry yeast? I started using ADY then at  a few suggestions by members here switched to IDY. At present I have little interest in sourdough, there are enough variables for me already.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 29, 2019, 11:56:03 AM


Arne . . An out of curiosity question . . . Have you noticed a difference in flavour using cake yeast as opposed to  a dry yeast? I started using ADY then at  a few suggestions by members here switched to IDY. At present I have little interest in sourdough, there are enough variables for me already.

No I have not noticed any flavor difference between IDY and cake yeast in my use.

My experience is limited to comparison of the Idun brand, which is the one most readily available to me. They market their "blue" yeast in dry and fresh versions, and I just cannot tell them apart (not that I can taste too much yeast in the final product anyway).

The big difference to me is predictability. I find the CY variant much more consistent than the powdered one. Apparently I seem blessed with a reliable source for fresh yeast.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 02, 2019, 05:59:08 AM
I was encouraged by my previous "mixing time" experiment and wanted to see if I could make a 69% hydration dough that was both workable and produced edible pizza.

The dough and process


Planned fermentation: 23 hours at 19 C.

I used my Kenwood mixer with spiral attachment and let it run for 15 minutes in total. The first 5 minutes were on minimum setting (step .5), the next 7 minutes I gradually increased the speed to about 30% (step 2), and the final 3 minutes were kept on that speed.

After 15 minutes of mixing, the dough seemed ready. While still very soft and rather easily extended, it did have some firmness to it. After a couple of stretches and folds, it firmed up quite a bit and now felt "good" and I covered it for proofing.

It sat for 15 hours in bulk before I balled it up. Although it seemed a bit slacker after the fermentation, it firmed up well during balling ("usual procedure"). Also, there was little need for bench flour, just a light dusting.

After 8 hours in balls, the pluviometer showed a little over 26 (just where I wanted), the guests had arrived and the oven was hot.

Bake, cook, eat

Step 1: Get a dough ball from the dough box and up on the counter. No problem, ball was nice and firm. Not sticky. Check!
Step 2: Form a disc. It was extensible but had more than enough elasticity for easy handling. Check!
Step 3: Dress it. Easy enough, it's just lying there. Check.
Step 4: Transfer it to the peel. Weight of ingredients did not interfere with manageability. Check!
Step 5: The launch. Pie slid off wooden peel with grace. Check!
Step 6: Cooking. Turning pizza-to-be to insure a proper bake was event free. Check!
Step 7: Tasting. The pizza came out looking and behaving "as it should": it was soft and foldable with a puffy rind. Biting into the cornicione, it was really soft and very light. Sometimes a hint of very very light "crunch" as the teeth met the crust, which was enjoyable. The cornicione was full of air but was missing a bit on structure. Don't know if this comes with the territory or if more kneading was needed. At least there was no trace of gumminess or chewiness. And it tasted good.
 

Thoughs

This was encouraging, this is the wettest NP dough I've ever made and eaten with success.

I am going to try how pressing on to 70% feels like. However, now that I've reached this point, I am starting to wonder if maybe 66% (or 67%) might be the sweet spot for me (given my ingredients, my process and my preferences).

I am sitting on a small island of bliss looking out on a large ocean of unknown. Looking forward for the next swim.

Some photos below.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on May 02, 2019, 07:25:57 AM
They look great Arne!  Quattro Formaggi is one of my favorites.  I am always interested in what cheeses do you use for yours?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 02, 2019, 08:38:43 AM
They look great Arne!  Quattro Formaggi is one of my favorites.  I am always interested in what cheeses do you use for yours?
Thanks! Yes sometimes I crave quattro formaggi and nothing else will do.

I used mozzarella, taleggio, pecorino romano and gorgonzola dolce.

Do you have a favorite combo?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on May 02, 2019, 10:35:07 AM
Fresh Mozz, Fontina,  Pecorino Romano and Gorgonzola.  I usually start with a little EVO on the skin, then some roasted garlic before the cheeses.  I have also added a little Provolone with the other four cheeses or a bit of Prosciutto after the bake.

The leftover is terrific the next morning with an over easy egg on top!  ( If there is any!!  )
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 02, 2019, 01:59:48 PM
Ah, yes, the ye olde "sei formaggi con aglio arrosto" :D

Sounds fantastic!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on May 03, 2019, 12:02:04 PM
Thanks for the detailed experiment once again. I am surprised at the result of the long mixing time, somewhere along the line I gathered that mixing to a shaggy mass then a bit of hand kneading and stretch and folds were the way to go, your results suggest another look at the premise. It would be a wonderful thing to be able to taste each other’s pizza, descriptions and photos are wholly inadequate.
Your pizza looks fantastic, and I wish mine were closer to the look of yours, but there are years ahead and a keen desire to get there. I like the colour burst of the pomegranate seeds! Looking forward to your next bake and experiment.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on May 04, 2019, 01:59:26 PM
As I picked up a bottle of the Costco water that I use for my pizza, I thought I would send you a pic for comparison. I use bottled water because our collected rainwater is apparently too soft.
How does it compare?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 05, 2019, 06:12:20 AM
As I picked up a bottle of the Costco water that I use for my pizza, I thought I would send you a pic for comparison. I use bottled water because our collected rainwater is apparently too soft.
How does it compare?

According to Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_water), hardness can be classified from total hardness as CaCO3 as follows:

ClassificationHardness in ppm
Soft0–60
Moderately hard61–120
Hard121–180
Very hard≥ 181

The total hardness as CaCO3 of the water on your picture (calculated from the Ca and Mg ion concentrations) is 171 ppm. This qualifies as "Hard water".

In comparison, the tap water I typically use has about 50 ppm total hardness, which is "Soft".

When I treat it with gypsym, it usually ends up with a total hardness of around 400 ppm as CaCO3. That's "Very hard".
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 08, 2019, 03:40:03 PM
For a while now I have wanted to do a side-by-side comparison of a low hydration dough to my typical 65% HR recipe. In the almost four years that have passed since I built my WF oven, I can't recall ever going below 62%. So it's about time I did. I really want to learn more and see for myself what a more "AVPN-style" dough brings to the table.

So without prejudice, I made two doughs from the following ingredients:

A: 59% Soft tap water, 100% Caputo pizzeria, 3.0% Salt (Jozo blue), 0.049% CY (Idun blue)
B: Excactly the same as A, but with 65% water.

A was mixed and kneaded in the Kenwood for 8 minutes. I dumped it on the counter and it felt good to go, so I did not do much hand kneading or any strech/folds at all.
B was mixed and kneaded in the Kenwood for 10 minutes. Once dumped onto the counter, I noticed it could use some more strength, so I performed some hand kneading and two series of stretch/folds with 10 minutes in between. Now it felt good and it went to bulk.

Both sat in bulk for 11 hours, followed by 12 hours in balls. The temperature was held konstant at 19 °C.

After 23 hours of total fermentation and maturation time, the doughs had risen a little less than I had hoped for. However I chose to stick to the original schedule despite a slightly slower fermentation than expected.

Impressions working with low hydration dough
Working with the low HR dough A was a new experience to me. When mixing it, it felt a little strange to keep adding flour to what seemed to be an already dry and firm dough. However, it got incorporated nicely and the resulting dough was smooth and very pleasant to work with. As expected there was no need for any bench flour at all. Forming the panetti was a breeze too and required only a couple of foldings to get it good and tight. In fact, I would say that handling this dough was a thoroughly pleasurable experience.

Shaping the balls into discs was easy enough, too. The "joy" seemed to diminish a little, however, as it was just too tight compared to what I am used to. On the plus side, the dryness kept the workflow simple: No way this skin could rip, stick or tear unless I really wanted it to. On the minus side, the cornicione was a little dense, and there was a bit too much chew overall I thought.

Thoughs
The first thing that strikes me as unexpected was how little the difference between the two doughs actually was, given the relative large difference in hydration.

Also, I have no doubt some of the issues I had with dough A can be due to the slight underfermentation that I mentioned above.

But since I also made a 65% batch, I know there's more to the story. This higher hydration dough, with about the same level of under-development as the other one, was a better performer overall as measured by workability on the bancone and tenderness and chew factor in the finished pizzas. The cornicione was more open, slightly bigger, and (subjectively) more enjoyable.

Just to repeat myself, the differences were real enough, but they were surprisingly small compared to what I would think 6 percentage points water difference would mean (and possibly smaller than the impression one might get from reading the paragraph above).

This experiment seems to suggest that hydration may be less important to achieving my goal (ref post #1) than other factors. Today's under-proofed 59% dough actually tasted pretty decent; I've made plenty worse...

Photos
1. Dough balls right after balling.
2. Dough balls as ready as they ever got.
3. Marinara made from dough A (59%)
4. Marinara made from dough B (65%)
5. Rucola e pomodorini, inspired by Pizzadaheim's thread  :chef:, made from dough A (59%)
6. Crumb shot of one of the A (59%) pizzas.
7. Crumb shot of one of the B (65%) pizzas.
8. Quattro formaggi (provolone piccante, parmigiano reggiano, mozzarella and pecorino romano), also using sk's EVO & garlic hack.  :-D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on May 11, 2019, 09:05:36 AM
Great pizzas Arne!  I hope you liked the provolone in the quattro formaggi as well as the small kick from the garlic!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 11, 2019, 10:36:43 AM
Great pizzas Arne!  I hope you liked the provolone in the quattro formaggi as well as the small kick from the garlic!

Thank you. Yes I enjoyed it very much!

Actually I was not planning on making quattro formaggi this day, but towards the end I noticed I had plenty of cheese left. I came to think of you and your post, and the inspiration came over me. I added the EVO and garlic first, like you said, then I threw four "random" cheeses on top. I was delighted, both because the garlic really complemented the cheese, and because the haphazard cheese selection turned out a good one.  :chef:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on May 11, 2019, 12:22:39 PM
It's difficult to go wrong with any haphazard selection of cheese on pizza. :D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: pizzadaheim on May 13, 2019, 05:12:29 PM
They look all great Arne. Very good job.  :chef: :pizza: Your dough balls look a little bit relaxed. Try to stuck them close to each other. You will need to make more dough
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Fat_Tony on May 14, 2019, 02:03:52 PM
I enjoy reading about your experiments, they are interesting and helpful for me. I have read this entire thread and come here from time to time to read the new posts and stay up to date. I was wondering if you wouldn't mind perhaps writing up a summary of sorts on where you are currently, what you have learned and where you will go from here? Maybe it's redundant but could be helpful.

I've been doing similar experiments at home but with a NY style dough because I don't have a WFO. I did just order a Ooni Koda, because I have space and cost constraints, and will now start exploring more Neapolitan styles since I have the oven to cook them!

Anyway, thanks for all the education.

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: rdbedwards on May 14, 2019, 07:23:41 PM

Yes, the time in balls is a very important consideration (which I more or less neglected for too long -- it was only last year, when pizzadaheim pointed this out to me, that I opened my eyes to this). It must be long enough to allow the balls to relax sufficiently, but leave them for too long and they may become too relaxed and difficult to work with. For high hydration dough in particular, I think this parameter has a huge impact.

Yes, of the three doughs, the 20 minute machine kneaded one was the best. Just to be clear though, I also believed that the 20 minute one probably should have received less kneading time (perhaps 15 minutes). The reasons for me saying this is mostly fear of oxidation and chewiness. It also seemed too strong. Perhaps they should have staied longer in balls too (or instead), as Heikjo hinted at.

What is your typical hydration in this context?

I concur that ball time is critical.  As an example, we recently had an unusual heat wave in our area, so my "room temp" flour was significantly warmer, and I was getting finished dough temps about 10F higher than target.  To compensate, I had to reduce the time in ball because when I followed the normal ball time the dough was ridiculously extensible and weak, and I was tearing holes when rotating with the peel. 

The most important thing I have learned recently is that it seems that much of the expertise of pizzamaking is experience and knowing what to change in order to achieve consistent results.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on May 14, 2019, 09:24:41 PM
The most important thing I have learned recently is that it seems that much of the expertise of pizzamaking is experience and knowing what to change in order to achieve consistent results.


Well said and so true. Impossible perhaps when starting out but at some point as you make more pizza, you begin to gain some insight into the vast number of variables, and the ability to correctly anticipate some of them, perhaps in increasing numbers. I hope . . . .
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 15, 2019, 01:04:41 PM
They look all great Arne. Very good job.  :chef: :pizza: Your dough balls look a little bit relaxed. Try to stuck them close to each other. You will need to make more dough
Thanks for the compliment, and also for your generous advise. Very much appreciated, I find your comments always nudging me forward.

I've pondered stacking them closer, but I am not sure they will fit four in a row. Perhaps if I adjusted the ball size, but...

What is the typical size each ball has available in your setup? Mine are looking at 13 x 12 cm (pretty perfect according to my 12 cm dough spatula/scraper). My panetti are usually 260 grams.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 15, 2019, 01:08:31 PM
I enjoy reading about your experiments, they are interesting and helpful for me. I have read this entire thread and come here from time to time to read the new posts and stay up to date. I was wondering if you wouldn't mind perhaps writing up a summary of sorts on where you are currently, what you have learned and where you will go from here? Maybe it's redundant but could be helpful.

I've been doing similar experiments at home but with a NY style dough because I don't have a WFO. I did just order a Ooni Koda, because I have space and cost constraints, and will now start exploring more Neapolitan styles since I have the oven to cook them!

Anyway, thanks for all the education.
Hi Fat_Tony. I am thrilled to hear that you find this thread useful. And I like your suggestion. In fact I got the same idea recently when I read some earlier posts and realized I'd forgotten a lot during my winter haetus.

I'll get around to it and keep you posted. ;)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 15, 2019, 01:15:31 PM


The most important thing I have learned recently is that it seems that much of the expertise of pizzamaking is experience and knowing what to change in order to achieve consistent results.

Very true. I may be a slow learner but I keep circling back to this fact over and over again. With each iteration, though, I feel like the truth in that statement becomes more clear and internalized. Which in itself kind of validates the idea.

My point is just that even though the most experienced pizza makers on this forum have been saying this over and over again all along, it takes experience to really understand that it takes experience.

...at least that's how it is for me. :D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on May 15, 2019, 01:43:43 PM
They look all great Arne. Very good job.  :chef: :pizza: Your dough balls look a little bit relaxed. Try to stuck them close to each other. You will need to make more dough
How does the space around them affect how relaxed they are? The way I understand it, relaxed is mostly about the structure and fermentation progress of the dough. Putting the balls tighter will make them push slightly more up instead of out, but I don't understand how that affects how relaxed they are.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: pizzadaheim on May 17, 2019, 05:49:17 AM
Thanks for the compliment, and also for your generous advise. Very much appreciated, I find your comments always nudging me forward.

I've pondered stacking them closer, but I am not sure they will fit four in a row. Perhaps if I adjusted the ball size, but...

What is the typical size each ball has available in your setup? Mine are looking at 13 x 12 cm (pretty perfect according to my 12 cm dough spatula/scraper). My panetti are usually 260 grams.

Hi Arne.

I don't know the size of each balls when they are ready to make pizza. What I can say is  The dough boxes are 60x40cm. I use 270gr panetti for 34~35cm pizza. In every dough box there are 12 balls which I think it's perfect set up.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: pizzadaheim on May 17, 2019, 05:50:48 AM
How does the space around them affect how relaxed they are? The way I understand it, relaxed is mostly about the structure and fermentation progress of the dough. Putting the balls tighter will make them push slightly more up instead of out, but I don't understand how that affects how relaxed they are.

I think I chose the wrong word. What I meant was flattened
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: rdbedwards on May 20, 2019, 03:13:00 PM

Very true. I may be a slow learner but I keep circling back to this fact over and over again. With each iteration, though, I feel like the truth in that statement becomes more clear and internalized. Which in itself kind of validates the idea.

My point is just that even though the most experienced pizza makers on this forum have been saying this over and over again all along, it takes experience to really understand that it takes experience.

...at least that's how it is for me. :D

I agree.  You can't know what you don't know, so only after time making pizza does one realise all of the tiny details that contribute to the end result.  And even with experience, mistakes are made.  Just yesterday I had a launch failure and the pizza looked awful.  I was surprised that it still tasted pretty good, though!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 25, 2019, 03:02:02 AM
My Ischia culture did not seem to enjoy a long winter in the fridge. After a few attempts in march/april I finally had to throw it away, it just kept getting weaker and weaker until I finally had to use crazy amounts to get a good rise. So I switched to cake yeast. Just recently, however, I reacquired some culture (from a friend I shared it with last year) and have been making a few batches with sourdough again. No doubt in my mind: Cake yeast is great, but sourdough is greater.

I am not sure why I could not breathe life back into the original one. I have always fed it daily, throwing half of it away and replacing it with 100% hydrated flour. According to the keeper of the cache, however, I should throw away 90%! Sounds nuts to me, but I am going to try a side by side here and see how it goes.

Meanwhile, the weather here seems cursed too. It's cold, 10-12 degrees, and plenty of rain. It does not stop us, but it does seem to affect a lot of little things...

Yesterday I got to try out a salmon recipe, inspired by Sauzer's magnificent creation. I opted for raw salmon ("Salma"), as my attempts back in the day with smoked salmon put me off (I probably made a very crude and unbalanced variant back then, but it sticks with me).

Below is a photo of my "Pizza Salma". Pre-bake I only add Mozzarella di Bufala and some thinly sliced red onion. Post bake I add the raw Salma with a pinch of salt, freshly ground black pepper, lime zest, cilantro and some EVO. We enjoyed it very much.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: schold on May 25, 2019, 04:30:49 AM
That's really beautiful. Well done.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on May 25, 2019, 07:35:36 AM
A great looking pizza Arne.  Very interesting combination.  I think if I tried to duplicate it, I would be eating it alone.  My wife seems a bit to traditional with her insistence on tomato sauce, mushrooms and salami!   :-D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 25, 2019, 08:17:49 AM
Schold, Sk, thank you very much!  :chef:

It went through a couple of iterations. My first attempt included chipotle in the hope that it would add a little smoke character (and because I love chili). Also I had thinly sliced orange on that one.  ::)

The chili was a little overpowering unfortunately, so I removed it on the next attempt. That helped quite a bit (sadly - I really do love chili).

One of my guests indicated he was not a huge fan of orange peel (which I had left on), and asked if I could remove the peel. I opted to remove the fruit altogether.

That did the trick, we all agreed. So we ended up with the final attempt as shown above.

Less is more I've heard. Seems plausible.  :-D

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on May 25, 2019, 11:55:14 AM
A beautiful Pie Arne! Perhaps a tad more raw salmon than my palette cares for as I love smoked hot or cold and raw in sushi size pieces. I am impressed you tried a few iterations of the pizza in one session, it would have been a 3 week turnover here!
Salmon is a bit of a touchy subject here at the moment as they have closed the area for all retention of salmon due to low returns to the rivers, somehow catch and release loses some of the appeal of fishing in a resource that was once so abundant.
Once again thanks for the post, I look forward your next instalment!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 26, 2019, 02:53:07 AM
Thanks Greg. I really do share your love for smoked salmon. It's just I've been burnt.

Maybe I can find it in my heart to try it on pizza again some day. Meanwhile the raw sushi grade variety works for me. :D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on May 28, 2019, 09:40:10 AM
The salmon pie looks very good! I can eat almost anything on a pizza as long as the toppings and flavors are balanced.

Is there any specific reason you use CY? Have you used IDY before and was there any difference.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 28, 2019, 01:10:56 PM
Is there any specific reason you use CY? Have you used IDY before and was there any difference.

I have used IDY. The reason for choosing CY instead is that I find it more consistent than IDY, i.e. yeast amounts easier to predict accurately.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on May 29, 2019, 12:26:28 PM
I have used IDY. The reason for choosing CY instead is that I find it more consistent than IDY, i.e. yeast amounts easier to predict accurately.
By predict, do you mean the same amount of IDY had larger variations in how the final dough fermented than CY? That if you made pizza 10 days in a row with the same amount of IDY, the fermentation of the dough would fluctuate more than with CY?

One issue I've had with IDY is the amounts. I don't know how accurate my scale is, but I see it gives different values when I remove and replace the box with IDY in.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 29, 2019, 04:59:22 PM
By predict, do you mean the same amount of IDY had larger variations in how the final dough fermented than CY? That if you made pizza 10 days in a row with the same amount of IDY, the fermentation of the dough would fluctuate more than with CY?

Yes, I believe we are on the same page. I use Craig's chart as a baseline. After a pizza session, I calculate the yeast's performance relative to the baseline. With CY, the scaling factor is pretty constant. With IDY however, the scaling factor fluctuates quite a bit wrt the chart. If that makes sense... (I believe most people find the opposite to be true. ;)



One issue I've had with IDY is the amounts. I don't know how accurate my scale is, but I see it gives different values when I remove and replace the box with IDY in.

I have a pretty accurate scale. It reads consistently but with IDY the dough maturation after a set amount of time seems unpredictable, while for CY I seem to get more repeatable results given the measurements shown on the scale.

My apologies is this reads as gibberish, I try my best but realize that what I'm writing is confusing when read back out loud....
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on May 29, 2019, 05:56:53 PM
Having built a batch of dough with apparently dead yeast, IDY, I now open a package, use it about 5 times, sealing it with masking tape each time, then throw it in the bin and start a new package for the next 5. Wasteful, perhaps, but the amount of time making and prepping dough and pizza is considerable compared to the cost of the IDY. All the ingredients up to the “toppings” are relatively inexpensive, an old guys time perhaps not so much.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 01, 2019, 12:10:31 PM
While the weather is improving, I am still working to get reacquainted with my SD culture.

It actually seems like discarding 90% vs discarding 50% during feeding changes very little. Both versions are slowly but surely regressing/losing strength for each bake... ???

Not critical yet I think, but I hope it does not continue this way.

A few pies to go:

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on June 01, 2019, 12:27:31 PM
Oh my, the Quattro Formagi is to die for.  The other two look great as well!

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on June 01, 2019, 04:18:37 PM
Agree. Four cheese pizzas are incredible. How do you like the pancetta and pomegrenade combination?

Do you have a white sauce or just cheese?

How do you store and maintain your starter? Does it double or triple after a feeding? In how many hours?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 02, 2019, 06:15:40 AM
Oh my, the Quattro Formagi is to die for.  The other two look great as well!

Thanks, that was my best Quattro Formaggi to date. Splurging on some high quality ingredients really paid off.  :D

Agree. Four cheese pizzas are incredible. How do you like the pancetta and pomegrenade combination?

Do you have a white sauce or just cheese?

The pomegrenade-pizza is a work in progress. I've made dull versions and really tasty versions. Some people love it, some people shrug. Personally, I love it when I get it right.

I use mozzarella and gorgonzola dolce as the base. The cubed pancetta is a nice complement, and the pomegrenade works well as a fresh/sweet contrast to a savory/salty base. Finding the right ratio of ingredients is key, as is picking the ingredients from the top shelf. Especially the pomegrenade must be of good quality to "earn it's keep".
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 02, 2019, 06:25:27 AM
How do you store and maintain your starter? Does it double or triple after a feeding? In how many hours?

The starter is kept in a mason jar which is stored in my basement at a relatively fixed temperature of around 21 degrees. I feed it daily, discarding 50% and replacing it with 100 grams of water + 100 grams of flour.

I've been keeping detailed logs for the last 20 days which show that, on average, the peak is reached at 75% growth after 6.1 hours, i.e. not even a doubling. The variance is pretty big, however. As shown in the attached plot, the growth in volume ranges from 36% to 119%, and the time it takes to reach the peak varies from 3.5 hours to 10 hours. But the average looks pretty stable, so I am not panicking just yet. :)

What worries me a little more is how it seems to grow weaker with time. As mentioned before, I use Craig's chart to predict the SD amount, with a correction factor. The correction factor is re-calculated after each bake, to keep up with changes in the culture's performance. What I really don't like is that the correction factor keeps growing, indicating a progressively weaker culture. I've included a chart that illustrates my point.

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on June 02, 2019, 08:12:20 AM
Arne:

I'm fascinated by your charts.  I understand the first one but can you please explain in a little more detail how your calculate the correlation factor on the second one. 

Regarding the weak starter.  I'm a real novice at SD but here go's my recommendation.  Feed it twice a day as opposed to once a day.  If really ambitious, I think the best time to feed it is when it is at it's peak.  So, for a while it may even be fed three times a day.  Everything I have read tells me patience is what helps the most!

Scott K.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on June 02, 2019, 09:52:24 AM
I agree with Scott. Just a daily feeding in 21C is not enough. My goal is always to keep the starter fed at all times, or at least as close as I can. In these days that means I feed it 2-3 times a day with varying ratios to fit my schedule. If I feed it 5:20:20 in the evening, it will have enough food until next morning. If I fed it 1:2:2, it would peak too soon and sit for hours underfed. Having the starter in a state of where it has spent it's food for hours is not ideal and will affect it's performance, as you experience. I think that is the problem. Not even doubling is also a sign of something wrong. Mine triples every time, but when I was a bit careless about feeding and didn't pay much attention, I didn't get the same growth. The starter can get back to good health by feeding it more regularly and maybe with smaller seed to extend the time it is growing if you don't want to or can't feed it as ofte. An alternative to feeding it more often is to refrigerate between uses, but that also need some care to how you do it.

I've had mine in the fridge between uses for a long time and it worked well, but since I took it out on the counter and started feeding in a schedule that avoid it sitting for too long without food, it has improved in activity and dough performance.

There are explanations to why it's not ideal to keep it underfed, many say it becomes more acidic and that you develop certain unwanted characteristics in the starter. I don't know the details of it, but it's probably out there. All I know is that the starter works better when fed enough.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on June 02, 2019, 09:58:34 AM
Arne, wonderful looking Pizza, fresh soft and colourful, a treat for the eyes and I am sure for the palette.
 I must try the Quattro Formagi, odd that I have made a lot of pizza now and have never tried it. Your discussion in the variables involved in using a starter pretty well sums up why I stick to IDY, my methodical, scientific approach to things perhaps died on the vine many moons ago, perhaps shortly after failing first year chemistry . . . Twice! Sculpture cabinetmaking and silliness are closer to my skill set. I enjoy your pursuit and with luck will learn from your experiments.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on June 02, 2019, 11:40:36 AM
You save yourself a lot of work and problems by doing it that way, Icelandr. If I didn't use sourdough for my bread, I don't know if I would keep one just for pizza. It makes a bigger difference in my bread than pizza. In bread it also affects structure and consistency to a larger degree than in pizza, where it's primarily for taste.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 02, 2019, 12:22:03 PM
Thanks a lot for you input and feedback, Scott, Heikjo, Greg.

Starting today I will feed my culture twice a day. Hopefully this will lead to improved performance in future bakes. I'll keep monitoring the culture closely and let you guys know how it progresses. :-D

I'm fascinated by your charts.  I understand the first one but can you please explain in a little more detail how your calculate the correlation factor on the second one. 

Sure, I can try. :-)

Using my latest dough as an example (data point 7 on my second chart above):


I use this calculation as a heuristic to adjust the predicted SD amounts on my next batch of dough. It works reasonably well for this purpose, though I do realize subjective factors come into play (when is the dough "ready"?), and also there are probably a number of other factors that can affect how much culture to use.  But as the chart shows, there seems to be a pattern: The scaling factor increases with each batch.

I noticed the same last year.
However, the two years before that it remained darn stable...
Go figure.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on June 02, 2019, 08:16:07 PM
Arne:

If 5.8% yielded dough in 28 hours and your target is 20 and your scaling factor is 3.4, how do you calculate the amount of starter for the next time to achieve the 20 hour target given temperature is constant?  3.4 x 5.8 seems excessive.

By the way, are you an engineer?  ???
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 03, 2019, 12:43:44 AM
If 5.8% yielded dough in 28 hours and your target is 20 and your scaling factor is 3.4, how do you calculate the amount of starter for the next time to achieve the 20 hour target given temperature is constant?  3.4 x 5.8 seems excessive.

The scaling factor is relative to the Craig's original prediction model (not to the amount used). In other words, it is applied to the base prediction from Craig's chart. The next time I make dough, if Craig's chart says to use 2%, I should use 3.4 x 2% = 6.8%.

This is assuming ideal conditions where my culture does not fluctuate. In practice, it will not be constant. An alternative strategy could be to use the average scaling factor from the most recent bakes (which is what I actually do and works really well with CY).

But seeing that the scaling factor is actually not centered around some stable average but rather shows a growing trend, I am now inclined to use a slightly higher scaling factor than the one calculated on my most recent bake (3.6 for example).

By the way, are you an engineer?  ???

Yes, I am. :-D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on June 03, 2019, 11:59:30 AM
Arne:

That makes more sense now, thanks. 

And, I suspected you just might be an engineer!   :-D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Fat_Tony on June 05, 2019, 10:26:19 AM
Hey Arne,

It just sounds like your culture may be getting a little more acidic over time and I have learned that acid inhibits yeast and reduces rise, so this might be the reason your culture is dropping off in performance as time goes on. I'm assuming here that when you say "performance" you mean rise in the dough?

I've been reading up on SD cultures and learned about how cultures can become too acidic or contaminated and there is a way to bring them back to life or "wash" them in order to sort of hit the reset button and start over. I have no idea if this is what happened to your culture or if this will help you at all but I just thought I would mention it to you as it might be worth a shot since you seem to enjoying experimenting with things.

Here's the process:
(assuming your culture is being stored in a 1L glass canning jar)
- stir your culture up and discard all but 1cup (240ml)
- fill the jar almost to the top with warm water (75-85F/24-29C) & stir vigorously
- discard all but 1c (240ml) again
- feed with 90g flour "and enough water to maintain a thick pancake like consistency"
- proof at 90F/32C for 24hrs
- after 24hrs feed with 90g flour "and enough water to maintain a thick pancake like consistency"
- proof at 70F/21C and continue discarding/feeding as above every 12hrs until fully active
- if it doesn't begin to revive in 2-3 days, repeat the process
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on June 05, 2019, 10:55:22 AM
Here's the process:
(assuming your culture is being stored in a 1L glass canning jar)
- stir your culture up and discard all but 1cup (240ml)
- fill the jar almost to the top with warm water (75-85F/24-29C) & stir vigorously
- discard all but 1c (240ml) again
- feed with 90g flour "and enough water to maintain a thick pancake like consistency"
- proof at 90F/32C for 24hrs
- after 24hrs feed with 90g flour "and enough water to maintain a thick pancake like consistency"
- proof at 70F/21C and continue discarding/feeding as above every 12hrs until fully active
- if it doesn't begin to revive in 2-3 days, repeat the process
Thanks for that! I've been trying to find this process before, but with no luck. Many have mentioned washing a starter, but I never saw an actual description of what you do.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 05, 2019, 11:22:31 AM
After Scott and Heikjo recommended feeding my culture more than once a day, I started feeding it once every 12 hours. I have only been doing this for a few days (since July 2nd), but I am seeing some promising development: The growth has been consistently around 100% for the last few feedings, and also the time to peak seems stable at around 5 hours. Furthermore, I made some dough with it yesterday and found that the scaling factor had dropped like a stone back to 1.0 -- in other words perfectly aligned with The Chart.

It may be too early to conclude, but I must say it is looking really promising. Thanks again for the tip, guys. And also a big thanks to Fat_Tony for the washing instructions (which, although hopefully not needed right now, might come in handy should I need to perform an "exorcism" on my culture at some later time).

This is so exciting news to me that I almost forgot to tell about today's bake. I did a 70% HR batch and varied time in balls from 2 hours to 4 hours to see if I could find a sweet spot. In short, 2 hours seemed too short and 4 hours was great.

I've attached a photo below.







Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on June 05, 2019, 12:17:22 PM
Awesome Arne!  So glad the culture is coming back to life!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on June 05, 2019, 12:21:21 PM
Fantastic looking Margherita!
Your constant querying and testing may be starting to wear off. My go to timing is 18 and 6, it works for me consistently but I look at that pie and assume it was ”right” for handling for you and wonder if I should drop to 4 hours. Dangerous trend!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on June 05, 2019, 12:31:40 PM
Good to hear and great looking pizza!

My starter was also on the fritz a while ago and recovered by just feeding it more often.

How long did you ferment and at what temperature? Were all baked at your usual level of fermentation, around 26mm/m²?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on June 05, 2019, 01:28:14 PM
I also feed often when I've neglected my starter.  I might even do 3 in a day, and after a while it seems to come back with a vengeance.  The result is a starter that peaks faster, peaks higher and is less sour.  I'm still not using it for pizza, just for bread. ;)

Regarding "ball time" I think maybe 4 hours is the lower limit, you need to give the dough time to relax, otherwise it will probably be elastic and promote a chewy/gummy pizza.  Of course this will also depend on how tight you made the balls when you formed them.

Hehe, I bought a spiral mixer too :)  Hopefully I'll manage to make good Neapolitan dough with it, but I'm sure it's going to be excellent for high hydration pizza in teglia and my bread.  I saw it in action at the convention I went to, and it makes a really super dough...  I'll never come close to that strength and silkiness with hand kneading, but on the other hand I'm not sure that such a tight dough is the right thing for Neapolitan...  Time will tell :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on June 05, 2019, 01:54:38 PM
Time in balls are dependent on many factors, which makes it difficult to find something that works for everyone. As always the answer is usually to start somewhere and try different timings to see where you find a sweetspot.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 05, 2019, 02:02:40 PM
Fantastic looking Margherita!
Your constant querying and testing may be starting to wear off. My go to timing is 18 and 6, it works for me consistently but I look at that pie and assume it was ”right” for handling for you and wonder if I should drop to 4 hours. Dangerous trend!

Thank you. Yes I am testing out higher hydration again (70% being a new personal high). Since higher hydration dough seems to benefits from shorter time in balls, I was testing out different timings to get a feel at this absorption level.

I would guess that your process as you describe it with ~6 hours in balls for ~66% HR (IIRC) is a great place to be.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on June 05, 2019, 02:05:35 PM
Time in balls are dependent on many factors, which makes it difficult to find something that works for everyone. As always the answer is usually to start somewhere and try different timings to see where you find a sweetspot.

At least two of the factors are; how much yeast is used, and the strength of the flour (minus that destroyed by the preferment), and how much strength you gave the dough, and the balls when you made them.

Edit: And of course it depends very much on the hydration..:)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 05, 2019, 02:10:49 PM
How long did you ferment and at what temperature? Were all baked at your usual level of fermentation, around 26mm/m²?

The plan was 23-25 hours total at 21.8 °C. Assuming an SD scaling factor of 2.5 relative to Craig, I used 6.6% SD (3% salt, 70% water, 100% Caputo Pizzeria).

The culture proved in much better shape, so I ended up with 19-21 hours total, of which 2-4 hours in balls. The pluviometer showed 33.5 when I made the first pizza after 19 hours, and it showed 37 at the 21 hour mark. A little more than I aimed for, but shifting the plan 4 hours was all I could muster today. :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on June 05, 2019, 02:13:15 PM
Have you tried adding just a little bit of CY, just to give a little extra boost to the levitation?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 05, 2019, 02:15:23 PM
Regarding "ball time" I think maybe 4 hours is the lower limit, you need to give the dough time to relax, otherwise it will probably be elastic and promote a chewy/gummy pizza.  Of course this will also depend on how tight you made the balls when you formed them.

You may be right, 4 is probably pushing it. But since the dough was so wet, I partially expected 2-3 hours to suffice.

Fortunately I think 4 hours actually worked pretty well with this dough.

Hehe, I bought a spiral mixer too :)  Hopefully I'll manage to make good Neapolitan dough with it, but I'm sure it's going to be excellent for high hydration pizza in teglia and my bread.  I saw it in action at the convention I went to, and it makes a really super dough...  I'll never come close to that strength and silkiness with hand kneading, but on the other hand I'm not sure that such a tight dough is the right thing for Neapolitan...  Time will tell :)

Ah! I read your posts about the pizza adventure with great interest (and a little envy I must admit). Sounds like a blast! I bet the new mixer will serve you well, congratulations!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Fat_Tony on June 05, 2019, 02:39:28 PM
And also a big thanks to Fat_Tony for the washing instructions (which, although hopefully not needed right now, might come in handy should I need to perform an "exorcism" on my culture at some later time).

This is so exciting news to me that I almost forgot to tell about today's bake. I did a 70% HR batch and varied time in balls from 2 hours to 4 hours to see if I could find a sweet spot. In short, 2 hours seemed too short and 4 hours was great.

I've attached a photo below.

"exorcism"  :-D :-D :-D

Duuuude.. that pizza looks incredible. Between you and Craig I've got a level to work for!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 05, 2019, 02:40:13 PM
Have you tried adding just a little bit of CY, just to give a little extra boost to the levitation?
I have not tried it yet. I am a little hesitant to do it because of the added complexity.

Nevertheless I did consider it a few times when the culture looked it's weakest. Looks like I'm on the right track, but if all else fails I just might give it a shot (the point of course being to get flavor from the culture).
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on June 05, 2019, 03:32:46 PM
How did you like the 70% HR compared to your usual ones? You've recently tried 59%, 65% and 70%. What's your takeaway when considering your goal in the first post?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 06, 2019, 11:32:01 AM
How did you like the 70% HR compared to your usual ones? You've recently tried 59%, 65% and 70%. What's your takeaway when considering your goal in the first post?
Right, that's the big question. ;)

I may have a lot more to say about that at a later point in time, but for now the short of it is more or less that my high hydration persuit has morphed into something new. It used to be about the search for the "perfect" dough as outlined in the first post of this thread. Now it is more for my own education, experience and practice. I no longer believe so strongly that high hydration is key to the dough I'm chasing. It can certainly be beneficial, but there are other "levers" that seem more potent/relevant.

Still on the hunt for the perfect dough, of course...

I hope you'll excuse my brevity now, I need meditation time. :-D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on June 06, 2019, 01:46:52 PM
I'm wondering if high hydration is really indicated when you cook very quickly, in say 60 seconds...

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Bready_McSourdough on June 07, 2019, 05:03:59 AM
After Scott and Heikjo recommended feeding my culture more than once a day, I started feeding it once every 12 hours. I have only been doing this for a few days (since July 2nd), but I am seeing some promising development: The growth has been consistently around 100% for the last few feedings, and also the time to peak seems stable at around 5 hours. Furthermore, I made some dough with it yesterday and found that the scaling factor had dropped like a stone back to 1.0 -- in other words perfectly aligned with The Chart.

It may be too early to conclude, but I must say it is looking really promising. Thanks again for the tip, guys. And also a big thanks to Fat_Tony for the washing instructions (which, although hopefully not needed right now, might come in handy should I need to perform an "exorcism" on my culture at some later time).

This is so exciting news to me that I almost forgot to tell about today's bake. I did a 70% HR batch and varied time in balls from 2 hours to 4 hours to see if I could find a sweet spot. In short, 2 hours seemed too short and 4 hours was great.

I've attached a photo below.

Can I post this photo including a link to the source and mentioning your name on https://www.reddit.com/r/neapolitanpizza/ ?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 07, 2019, 05:16:49 AM
Can I post this photo including a link to the source and mentioning your name on https://www.reddit.com/r/neapolitanpizza/ ?
Sure, feel free to do so. Thanks for asking.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on June 07, 2019, 06:27:41 AM
One thing I've noticed when talking about time in balls. In various TV shows and videos from pizzerias in Naples, they often have a very short time in bulk and longer time in balls. The balls also doesn't seem to ferment all that much, as they are not particularly large in size when opened. This is in contrast to what many of us do on the forum, with a shorter time in balls relative to total fermentation.

An example in this episode on NRK (https://tv.nrk.no/serie/landgang/2018/KOID36009017/avspiller) (only available in Norway) where a Swedish cook travels to Naples to learn how to make Neapolitan. They visit AVPN where they leave the bulk for only 20 minutes, then ball and 24 hours at 25C before opening.

In this video with Gino Sorbillo, he leave the dough in bulk for one hour and then 8-9 hours in balls.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4r0tGfTh68

Have you tried a longer time in balls like many apparently do in Naples? Could that be one of the reasons the dough comes out that soft in Naples pizzerias? Longer time in balls (relative to total fermentation time) obviously makes the dough itself softer to the touch. It wouldn't be far-fetched to assume that the final pizza also becomes softer from this.

The dough might become more difficult to work with and require a gentler touch, but the upside can be worth it.

What are your experiences with this? You recently mentioned 4 hours being ideal for your balls, which is considerably less than what some in Naples do. One factor might be that the doughs aren't allowed to ferment as far as we might do, which makes it more extensible, but judging by the videos already mentioned, there are at least to the eye some significant differences in the level of fermentation used in Naples.

Maybe longer time in balls is more beneficial to the final crumb softness than a higher level of fermentation. If you go with long time in balls and high fermentation, the dough might become too soft to work with. Perhaps less fermentation and longer in balls is the way to go. I wouldn't be surprised if the longest time you can get away with in balls is beneficial.

Another reason one might not want as high fermentation is the accumulation of air. With doughs fermented quite far, I often run into problems with air bubbles in the rim that I have to either pop or cut off after bake since they get incinerated. Less fermentation means less air and possibly a better cornicione.

In the video from AVPN they used 1.8kg of flour and 0.5g of what looked like CY. That's 0.028%, and when looking at Craig's model (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26831.msg349349.html#msg349349) it lines up perfectly with 0.03% CY and 24 hours at 25C. Gino's recipe also seems to fit pretty well. 1.55kg of flour, 1.5g of yeast, making it 0.097% and 8-10 hours fermentation. Again pretty spot on with Craig's model.

Using sourdough might be a contributing factor to some differences. Do you have any thoughts on a comparison of a dough made with CY and one with sourdough for 24 hours and if you'd want them different time in balls?

Looking at the pies by SAUZER (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34731.550) and Antilife (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40885.700), who makes some of the best looking pies in here (too bad we can't taste), they both favor longer time in balls.

Interested to hear your thoughts on this. I want to try myself now.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 07, 2019, 06:56:25 AM
Heikjo, thanks for thoughtful and thorough post.

I think my recent high hydration adventures may have created a skewed impression of my typical process. My go-to schedule is actually 12+12, and I was known to go as high as 24+24 in my earlier days.

Please note that when I recently posted about 4 hours in balls, that was a 70% dough. Normally I'm the low 60s and for that dough 4 hours is way too short, excactly for the reasons you mention.

I encourage you to play around with differet scheduled for different doughs, it is really an eye opener.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on June 07, 2019, 07:17:48 AM
One potential conflict when fermenting on wood is that the balls dry out too much. If wood is to be used one might need to ball it on plastic first and wood later.

Correct you are. Have you ever tried something like 2+24? It's double the time in balls compared to 12+12.

When analyzing time in balls, do you primarily judge it by how the dough opens or final product? I realize now that for me, I've always used the dough handling properties as guideline.

Another thing I thought about when comparing hydration is that pizzerias in Naples often use wooden bowls for mixing. I use plastic and metal, which doesn't soak up any moisture. I'd think the final doughs lose some hydration when mixed in a wooden box.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on June 07, 2019, 07:35:59 AM
From what I understand the apretto (the time spent fermenting as balls), serves mainly to let the dough relax again.  If they are tight it will make it more difficult to form a disc and might lead to a gummy pizza.  Each time you touch the dough it becomes what the Italians called nervous and them slowly it relaxes again. Of course this is also influenced by the flour, the hydration level, the salt level, the temperature, etc.  I've seen recommendations to be very gentle when forming the balls if you want a short appretto, and to make them tighter for a long apretto.

To me it appears that the trick is to formulate your dough and the timing of the various passes so that the dough balls have arrived at the proper maturation, fermentation and strength at the desired baking time.

In the case of sourdough maybe you need less time in balls as the acids tend to weaken the gluten?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Irishboy on June 07, 2019, 09:34:46 AM
This is a great discussion and I was actually thinking about this the other day before I read these post I usually always do a long bulk fermentation and I decided the other day I'm going to do a 2 hour bulk followed by 8+ balled, I've been curious about this also I'm also going to lower my hydration to 57% with Caputo pizzeria. 60% is tacky for me. I've never tried the longer balling with RT only with CF
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on June 07, 2019, 11:03:03 AM
As I have just finished, skimming this time, Omid’s thread in the sticky posts, I recall again seeing his discussion of this same issue. As usual he explored it quite thoroughly and it may be an interesting read for those above. Some kind soul catalogued his posts which I saved, perhaps this might work . . . Hope so - if not a search for fermentation will find it.

Initial Short Fermentation vs Initial Long Fermentation
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg155395.html#msg155395 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg155395.html#msg155395)(Reply #611)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg165901.html#msg165901 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg165901.html#msg165901)(Reply #1105)
(Reply #1271)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg172531.html#msg172531 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg172531.html#msg172531)(Reply #1276)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg172992.html#msg172992 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg172992.html#msg172992)  (Reply #1287)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg173163.html#msg173163 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg173163.html#msg173163)(Reply #1290)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174782.html#msg174782 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg174782.html#msg174782)(Reply #1325)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg176044.html#msg176044 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14506.msg176044.html#msg176044)(Reply #1357)


My apologies for the copy and paste formatting, I will fix shortly! - Thank You Pete-zza !
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on June 07, 2019, 12:04:55 PM
Icelandr! Thank you very much for those links. It was an interesting (and as always entertaining) read. Omid's post feels as much like poetry and philosophy as pizza discussions. I am a bit sad that I wasn't around here when he were. Fortunately we got his tremendous catalogue of posts accessible.

He's certainly not one to keep it short and simple, but my main takeaway from those posts was that each method has it's merit (ISLF and IFSL)

Quote
1) Initial short fermentation of dough mass followed by final long fermentation of dough balls (referred to "ISFL" hereinafter), and
2) Initial long fermentation of dough mass followed by final short fermentation of dough balls (referred to "ILFS" hereinafter).

He did allude to ISFL giving a softer and more delicate crumb, which as I mentioned earlier, is not to difficult to understand. If the pizzerias in Naples generally trend towards ISFL, I can finally begin to understand why they get such soft and delicate pies. He also said that ISFL gives you a larger window of usability than ILSF.

Only one thing to do, and that is experiment. Since my main problem recently has been chewy crumb, I think this might be an interesting experiment.

I'd love to hear anyone else's experience with these two methods, both with yeast and sourdough.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on June 07, 2019, 06:40:06 PM
Initial Short Fermentation vs Initial Long Fermentation

Thanks a lot for those links.  I'll reread them again tomorrow.  Food for thought.. :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: rdbedwards on June 07, 2019, 07:52:32 PM
When switching between long bulk ferment/short ball and the opposite, does one change anything else or keep it the same?  I'm primarily thinking of yeast quantity, hydration, and temperature.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on June 07, 2019, 08:53:14 PM
Interesting read.  I just did a 20+4 tonight.  Perhaps the inverse next week for comparison.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: vdempsey on June 07, 2019, 11:51:42 PM
Interesting read. 

 ^^^ . I too noticed from watching videos in youtube of Italian pizza masters that they use short bulk fermentation and longer balls fermentation.

Also, I recently took an online pizza making class by Gigio Attanasio from Napoli, Italy, who is now based in Dublin, Ireland. He does not even teach a short bulk fermentation.  After a series of stretch and folds and resting 10-15 minutes in between, he immediately divides the bulk dough into balls and allows them to ferment for 24 hours (dough has 67% HR). 

I shall try his method to see if indeed it develops a softer less chewy crust.

Edit: (dough has 60% HR) Corrected it to 67% HR. His English speaking w/ a heavy Italian accent, I misheard his 67% for 60%.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on June 08, 2019, 02:42:58 AM
When switching between long bulk ferment/short ball and the opposite, does one change anything else or keep it the same?  I'm primarily thinking of yeast quantity, hydration, and temperature.
Yes. With less time in one big dough mass, you must expect a little slower fermentation. This is something Omid mentioned and I've also read elsewhere on the forum.

Larger dough mass ferments faster than a small ball.

I've also seen it mentioned that you get less flavor with less time in bulk. If that's simply because of less overall fermentation or if flavor actually develop more in bulk than ball, if both are allowed to ferment the same amount, I can't say.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on June 08, 2019, 04:14:10 AM
This is a great discussion and I was actually thinking about this the other day before I read these post I usually always do a long bulk fermentation and I decided the other day I'm going to do a 2 hour bulk followed by 8+ balled, I've been curious about this also I'm also going to lower my hydration to 57% with Caputo pizzeria. 60% is tacky for me. I've never tried the longer balling with RT only with CF
Strange, I've been doing 62% hydration with caputo pizzeria (blue) for a long time and never really found it sticky?  How do you mix the dough and what recipe?  That said the VPN disciplinare https://americas.pizzanapoletana.org/foto/allegati/AVPN_Disciplinare.pdf calls for ~56-59% hydration.

The only times I found it sticky was when it was very warm (and the heat started breaking down the gluten) or my limited attempts with sourdough.

Edit: I do also remember that on the occasions that I did longer fermentation in the fridge the dough was stickier than what I'm used to.  So far I've mostly limited myself to 8-9 or 24 hours with CY at AT.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on June 08, 2019, 04:29:39 AM
I've learnt from the brotherhood that each time you manipulate the dough, you stimulate the fermentation (and I guess maturation).  That is to say that fermentation increases after manipulating the dough

Another fact to keep in mind is that when gluten is formed it requires water molecules and when the bond is broken it releases water back into the dough.  This is the reason why a dough dries out as you knead it and why it gets wetter as time goes by and the dough relaxes again.  It is also the reason that the dough gets wet when the acids from sourdough or high temperature breaks down the gluten.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on June 08, 2019, 04:40:31 AM
^^^ . I too noticed from watching videos in youtube of Italian pizza masters that they use short bulk fermentation and longer balls fermentation.

Also, I recently took an online pizza making class by Gigio Attanasio from Napoli, Italy, who is now based in Dublin, Ireland. He does not even teach a short bulk fermentation.  After a series of stretch and folds and resting 10-15 minutes in between, he immediately divides the bulk dough into balls and allows them to ferment for 24 hours (dough has 60% HR). 

I shall try his method to see if indeed it develops a softer less chewy crust.

I suppose one could argue that the time after mixing and before forming the balls, that is to say the waiting time while doing the S/F could count as bulk fermentation.  Just be careful that you don't overdo it with the S/F as IMO that seems to be an atom bomb and it's easy to make a very stiff dough.  For Neapolitan pizza you'd like a dough that is well formed and fluffy but still not too tight as that tends to promote chewiness and in it's extreme condition problems when extending the disks.

Or maybe not a problem when keeping it as balls for 24 hours, that's a long time for them to relax.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: vdempsey on June 08, 2019, 04:59:48 AM
amolapizza,

I'm still studying the class. Just playing them over and over to really study his method. 

As a newbie, I appreciate your reply and will take note of what you mentioned and keep it in mind once I start to experiment with his pizza recipe, dough management, 24 hour fermentation, his dough opening method and finally baking in a home oven while using my sourdough starter.  As the masters say in this forum, practice, practice, and more practice.  :)

Vida
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on June 08, 2019, 05:33:50 AM
Not to be discouraging but keep in mind that trying to make a Neapolitan in a home oven is probably a futile exercise, but much of the theory and many of the methods are applicable all the same.  Unless you can manage to cook the pizza very quickly it won't be Neapolitan.  It will get too crispy when cooked for too long.

That said a 3-4 minute cooking time can make for a very tasty pizza and is probably what most people would prefer :)  I've heard people complaining that the Neapolitan is too soft, wet, soggy, etc.

I started myself with a domestic oven (we bought a new Siemens that supposedly reaches 300C), managed to set it up so that I could cook a 3 minute pizza which was very tasty.  I had to wait too long though to be able to bake the next pizza to the same standard, which led me to buy an Italian specialist pizza oven...B)

Sometimes I do take a break and cook at a lower temperature for a 3-3.5 minute pizza that we like a lot.  In fact I suspect that my fiancee prefers that one, as it's more crispy and the cheese has melted a lot more.  Personally I think I prefer the 60-90 seconds one as I find the tastes more pure, the crumb, the sauce and the toppings.  Somehow all the tastes are more bright to me.  A funny thing is that it's a lot more relaxed to bake in 3 minutes, I feel like I'm a holiday and I have time to extend a new pizza, clean stuff, have a drink, talk to people.  With 60 seconds I don't have time for much else than paying attention to the oven..
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on June 08, 2019, 05:57:12 AM
That's one thing I miss from when I made 6 minute pies. After we were done eating, the kitchen was all cleaned up. When making Neapolitan, every surface has something on it.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on June 08, 2019, 06:41:43 AM
Another funny observation I made on the convention.  There was a famous Neapolitan pizzaiolo making a demonstration.  He took one look at a brand new model of a gas oven with biscotto floor and said keep the floor temperature at 400C.  Not sure if he didn't trust the oven, or if he just wanted to be on the safe side..  He made the pizzas and another guy handled the oven, I timed the bakes and they came out at around 2 minutes, still they were perfect neapolitan pies, soft with an airy cornicione and a nice looking mako..

I suspect there is something more to it than just dough formula and oven temperature :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 08, 2019, 06:54:04 AM
Amolapizza, I really enjoy the "tidbits" you release, in this thread and others, with high frequency these days. For example the thing about how water is bound up in gluten, and then gets released. Fascinating stuff)

A funny thing is that it's a lot more relaxed to bake in 3 minutes, I feel like I'm a holiday and I have time to extend a new pizza, clean stuff, have a drink, talk to people.

:-D I get the same feeling when doing lower hydration doughs. While still sub 60 seconds bakes, it feels like being on vacation, as you put it. Not having to focus hard on every single act and movement, I can lower my shoulders, relax and rely more on routine. So I get to be more present.

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on June 08, 2019, 07:00:21 AM
Amolapizza, I really enjoy the "tidbits" you release, in this thread and others, with high frequency these days. For example the thing about how water is bound up in gluten, and then gets released. Fascinating stuff)

Thanks, happy to hear!  Was considering if I wasn't occupying your thread too much, and if I shouldn't save my titbits for my own thread..  Still it's fun to share information and discuss these things.  Just wish that my finished product would equal my apparent knowledge :D  Still there has been steady progress, and someday I hope to get there :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on June 08, 2019, 07:52:08 AM
Amolapizza, I really enjoy the "tidbits" you release, in this thread and others, with high frequency these days. For example the thing about how water is bound up in gluten, and then gets released. Fascinating stuff)

:-D I get the same feeling when doing lower hydration doughs. While still sub 60 seconds bakes, it feels like being on vacation, as you put it. Not having to focus hard on every single act and movement, I can lower my shoulders, relax and rely more on routine. So I get to be more present.

I will jump back in and say I also am thoroughly enjoying the discussion.  Based on Arne's earlier experiments, I did a 20+4 last night.  Now,  perhaps inverse next time.  So much to learn!  Like Amolapizza, I think my wife likes the slower bake as well.  I have been working on cooking around 400c.  The pizzas still come out soft and tasty.  I can't say the kitchen is clean though!  We sit out on the covered porch, I make a pizza, eat some, evaluate it, have some wine....repeat.   Kitchen waits till later! :-D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 08, 2019, 08:23:40 AM
An example in this episode on NRK (https://tv.nrk.no/serie/landgang/2018/KOID36009017/avspiller) (only available in Norway) where a Swedish cook travels to Naples to learn how to make Neapolitan.

That was a fun episode, thanks for the tip!

It was great to see Ville and Besmir at Lilla Napoli (some of their posts on this forum are truly legendary), and man can they make a good looking pizza!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on June 08, 2019, 08:37:02 AM
I will jump back in and say I also am thoroughly enjoying the discussion.  Based on Arne's earlier experiments, I did a 20+4 last night.  Now,  perhaps inverse next time.  So much to learn!  Like Amolapizza, I think my wife likes the slower bake as well.  I have been working on cooking around 400c.  The pizzas still come out soft and tasty.  I can't say the kitchen is clean though!  We sit out on the covered porch, I make a pizza, eat some, evaluate it, have some wine....repeat.   Kitchen waits till later! :-D

I hate cleaning, so I prefer to clean everything directly.  Goes much faster and it's time that I don't really lose as I'm in the kitchen anyways.  I hate to come into the kitchen and have a mountain to clean...

Still there is something to be said for sitting on the porch and enjoying a slice of pizza with a good glass of wine..!!! :D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 08, 2019, 08:53:22 AM
Like Amolapizza, I think my wife likes the slower bake as well.  I have been working on cooking around 400c.  The pizzas still come out soft and tasty.

My son wants crispy pizza. I have started baking pies for him special and in two stages: first almost done, then a different pizza (cooked normally), and then I stick his pizza back in and finish it in the mouth of the oven. That crisps the crust up well (and I don't have to compromise on the temperature  ;D).
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on June 08, 2019, 09:39:34 AM
Another funny observation I made on the convention.  There was a famous Neapolitan pizzaiolo making a demonstration.  He took one look at a brand new model of a gas oven with biscotto floor and said keep the floor temperature at 400C.  Not sure if he didn't trust the oven, or if he just wanted to be on the safe side..  He made the pizzas and another guy handled the oven, I timed the bakes and they came out at around 2 minutes, still they were perfect neapolitan pies, soft with an airy cornicione and a nice looking mako..

I suspect there is something more to it than just dough formula and oven temperature :)
Yep. There's a pizzeria here with a WFO and the temperature shows 360°. I don't know where the sensor is placed, but they bake in two minutes and comes out as soft as a minute pie.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: vdempsey on June 08, 2019, 09:52:40 AM
Not to be discouraging but keep in mind that trying to make a Neapolitan in a home oven is probably a futile exercise, but much of the theory and many of the methods are applicable all the same.  Unless you can manage to cook the pizza very quickly it won't be Neapolitan.  It will get too crispy when cooked for too long.

That said a 3-4 minute cooking time can make for a very tasty pizza and is probably what most people would prefer :)  I've heard people complaining that the Neapolitan is too soft, wet, soggy, etc.

I started myself with a domestic oven (we bought a new Siemens that supposedly reaches 300C), managed to set it up so that I could cook a 3 minute pizza which was very tasty.  I had to wait too long though to be able to bake the next pizza to the same standard, which led me to buy an Italian specialist pizza oven...B)

Sometimes I do take a break and cook at a lower temperature for a 3-3.5 minute pizza that we like a lot.  In fact I suspect that my fiancee prefers that one, as it's more crispy and the cheese has melted a lot more.  Personally I think I prefer the 60-90 seconds one as I find the tastes more pure, the crumb, the sauce and the toppings.  Somehow all the tastes are more bright to me.  A funny thing is that it's a lot more relaxed to bake in 3 minutes, I feel like I'm a holiday and I have time to extend a new pizza, clean stuff, have a drink, talk to people.  With 60 seconds I don't have time for much else than paying attention to the oven..
Oh yes I know to make NP in home oven is very hard. I am merely trying to make the best pizza that I will enjoy myself whether it be NP, NY or Artisan style. It could be a combination of all 3 that I just mentioned or more. Again, I appreciate your reply and I shall ponder on it and keep on making pizza.  :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on June 08, 2019, 10:35:33 AM
An example in this episode on NRK (https://tv.nrk.no/serie/landgang/2018/KOID36009017/avspiller) (only available in Norway) where a Swedish cook travels to Naples to learn how to make Neapolitan. They visit AVPN where they leave the bulk for only 20 minutes, then ball and 24 hours at 25C before opening.

I found it on Swedish tv, enjoyed watching it, they even visit Caputo's mill and laboratory.  Of course it's mostly in Swedish (only some English), but maybe someone else enjoys watching it.  This link seems to work from outside of Sweden too: https://www.svtplay.se/video/15097180/landgang/landgang-sasong-9-neapel?start=auto&tab=2017
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 08, 2019, 11:01:58 AM
I found it on Swedish tv, enjoyed watching it, they even visit Caputo's mill and laboratory.  Of course it's mostly in Swedish (only some English), but maybe someone else enjoys watching it.  This link seems to work from outside of Sweden too: https://www.svtplay.se/video/15097180/landgang/landgang-sasong-9-neapel?start=auto&tab=2017

A favorite moment: In the very beginning of the show, the two hosts visit Lilla Napoli. While enjoying a margherita, they complement the chefs and ask how long it takes to learn making such a pizza. Besmir replies that it took them 10 years. The male host rolls his eyes and says "how hard can it be".

The rest of the show seems to partially answer that question. :-D

I think many of us can relate to the ups and downs he experiences during his short but interesting education during the rest of the show.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on June 08, 2019, 11:05:17 AM
Fun video.  For the interest.

Flour 100%
Water 55%
Salt 3%
Yeast .027%
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 08, 2019, 11:11:13 AM
Fun video.  For the interest.

Flour 100%
Water 55%
Salt 3%
Yeast .027%
And get this: 24 hours fermentation (not 6, not 8). That recipe was from the AVPN academy. :-O ;-)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on June 08, 2019, 11:36:11 AM
I'm trying a dough with long time in balls today. 1 hour on the counter with some kneading every 20 minutes, then to ball. I only make one ball tonight. Will leave it until tomorrow. How long I don't know yet, but at least 20 hours. With sourdough, so it'll be interesting to see if I can make a pie out of it.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Irishboy on June 08, 2019, 09:46:33 PM
I am actually going to do a 9hr dough instead of the 20hr i usually do


Work flow will be something lile this, poolish for 2hrs then bulk for 30min then balled at RT


I am loving this discussion and it has me interested
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: vdempsey on June 09, 2019, 01:06:12 AM
Experimenting too and just finished balling 2 dough balls after an hour plus few minutes in counter with pushing/stretching/folding after every 25-30 minutes.

Will leave them and see if I can make a pie tonight and the other pie tomorrow to compare a 7 hour fermentation and one overnight fermentation.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: pizzainthe6ix on June 12, 2019, 12:39:53 PM
I just finished reading this entire thread  :o . There is so much amazing information here, a lot of detail and a lot of love for this craft. 

Have there been any major conclusions on fermentation times in bulk .vs. balled to get the ideal results of taste, texture and ease of handling?  I think from all other posts we are going on the assumption that a 48hr R/T (around 65F) is ideal for flavour.

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 12, 2019, 01:11:57 PM
Question
What is the taste difference between pizza made from two similar doughs, but where one is fermented at 19.5°C and the other one at 23.0°C?

Background
It just occurred to me that when I decide on the amount of yeast or culture to use, flavor is not part of the equation. Rather, I think practicalities. My though process is something like this:
Now I have time and temperature, and I can use Craig's chart to determine the needed amount of yeast/SD.

Assuming the fermentation temperature affects the final flavor to at least some degree, I was curious to see if I or any of my guests would be able to pick up on any such flavor differences.

The doughs
I made two doughs, dough A and dough B, as follows:

Execution
The fermentation went smoothly and according to the planned schedule (thanks in part to a revitalized culture: the strength compensation factor, or "scaling factor", remains at 1 ± 0.1 which is fantastic!)

When ready to bake, both doughs had reached 27.5 mm in the pluviometer, a volume increase of about 80% and just what I aimed for.

Forming the crust was a good experience, the dough behaved really well.

My only complaints was the weather -- it was pouring down!

Results
All pies came out soft, fragrant and tasty.

Sadly, I was not able to decide which was which when served blindly. Neither could any of my guests.

I thought that I experienced the warm-fermented dough as slightly softer on the bancone. In addition, I though the warm-fermented dough might be slightly more tender and slightly more puffy. As for taste, however, I could not taste a difference even if I wanted to.  :-D

Thoughts
I do believe fermentation temperature can affect the flavor of the crust, but I can not say that I have experienced it myself.
Some points that come to mind:

Photos
Between the weather, the entertaining and the data collection (a.k.a. face stuffing), I did not get to snap as many photos as I commonly do. They were all margheritas anyway. I'm sharing one below.

Edit: A few typos and clarifications.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on June 12, 2019, 02:45:29 PM
I just finished reading this entire thread  :o . There is so much amazing information here, a lot of detail and a lot of love for this craft. 

Have there been any major conclusions on fermentation times in bulk .vs. balled to get the ideal results of taste, texture and ease of handling?  I think from all other posts we are going on the assumption that a 48hr R/T (around 65F) is ideal for flavour.

To me there seems to be three variables, maturation, fermentation and gluten development.  The maturation (and gluten development) would depend on the strength of the the flour.  If you use a medium force flour maybe 24 hours maturation would be best, while if using a stronger flour 48 hours might be better (from a taste point of view).

The puzzle facing us when making a pizza is to get all of them to coincide.  That enough maturation has created a digestible dough by breaking down the starches and proteins while developing the desired amounts of sugars, acids, flavors, etc. That the fermentation has risen the ball to the desired volume expansion. And that the gluten is developed to the right point, neither to tight nor too slack.

Easier said than done :D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on June 12, 2019, 03:14:05 PM
“They were all Margheritas anyway. I am sharing one below”


Oh how I wish!


Thanks again for sharing your experimentation, good post!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on June 12, 2019, 05:15:55 PM
Arne, in addition to the dough and color that you are experimenting with, I am interested in the cheese.  I love the way the cheese melts and blends into the tomato.  What cheese are you using and do you have any thoughts on how to obtain that gentle blending  of the cheese and tomato?


Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 13, 2019, 04:24:04 AM
Arne, in addition to the dough and color that you are experimenting with, I am interested in the cheese.  I love the way the cheese melts and blends into the tomato.  What cheese are you using and do you have any thoughts on how to obtain that gentle blending  of the cheese and tomato?

Scott, it sounds like we share an obsession with cheese.  :chef:
The pizzaioli pros makes it look so easy, but I find it anything but. How much to use? How thin a layer? What type of cheese? What cuts? And so on...

I only ever use fresh mozzarella, and mostly buffalo mozzarella. The cheese I used on that last pizza was fresh mozzarella di bufala from Valcolatte. I've attached a photo of one of the bags. I frequently use Latbri brand as well, also the fresh buffalo mozzarella. Sometimes I go for fior di latte, but my personal preference is buffalo mozzarella, especially on my margheritas.

The cutting and arrangement of the cheese is a constant work in progress! :-D I used to try and cut the cheese in very small cubes, after inspiration from some of Sorbillo's pies. I include a photo below for reference (Sorbillo's pie). I had some success with this, but fresh mozzarella can be rather wet, and "cutting" can be more akin to "mashing", especially when nearing the expiration date. So it is not always possible for me to make the small cuts necessary for this look.

More recently, I have started cutting the mozzarella matchstick shaped, using the whole length of the ball but trying to keep the sticks slim. I have tested making "tapering" cuts as well, like long wedges, to promote blending. However, not sure if that did much, so I normally use plain matchstick shapes now.

When decorating the pie, I try to spread the cheese very evenly but so that the red is allowed to come clean through here and there. I try to avoid too much overlapping of cheese strands. Near the cornicione, I go a little easier on the cheese: I like to see a gradient to pure red here, with a few strands of white spilling over here and there.

At the moment, my biggest focus with respect to cheese, is on the actual spreading part. Finding out how it is best positioned to achieve the aesthetics I'm after.


(Edit: Added a little clarification, I hope)


Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on June 13, 2019, 09:20:12 AM
Hi Arne, I recalled from my latest skimming, this post from Omid
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14506.msg156123#msg156123 (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14506.msg156123#msg156123)


Which may or not be interesting to you. I have now gone to tearing pieces from the ball. With the texture of the Fior Di Latte I can source it seemed the most ”natural” way to me. I have sliced, diced torn from strips and it always appeared arbitrary. For a while I will continue tearing and watch your thread and others. The cheese cutter at Da Michele looks interesting and likely a common machine in a commercial setting.


Cheers
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 13, 2019, 09:31:57 AM
Hi Arne, I recalled from my latest skimming, this post from Omid
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14506.msg156123#msg156123 (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14506.msg156123#msg156123)

Which may or not be interesting to you. I have now gone to tearing pieces from the ball. With the texture of the Fior Di Latte I can source it seemed the most ”natural” way to me. I have sliced, diced torn from strips and it always appeared arbitrary. For a while I will continue tearing and watch your thread and others. The cheese cutter at Da Michele looks interesting and likely a common machine in a commercial setting.

Thanks you Greg, very interesting indeed.

From the looks of it, Omid has access to some very good quality mozzarella, at least the "dryness" as it appears from both photos and his own description. Omid says he leaves the ball to dry/sweat for an hour or so. I think I mentioned this before, but I actually take the cheese out of the bag and let it drip dry in the fridge overnight. It helps, but usually the texture is not that great (it does taste great, though!).
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on June 13, 2019, 09:29:55 PM
Arne:  Yes, the cheese on the margo is my goal.  It has been my goal since visiting Sorento 6 years ago.  Good buffalo mozzarella is very hard to source here.  I ventured up to a high end grocery store today and did find some.  Tomorrow, we will try it  Thank you and Greg for your suggestions on how to cut/tear and apply.  I agree with you the placement is key.  My pizzas usually look half covered!  That blended look where the cheese melds into the tomato is what I would like to see.  A local pizzaiolo, Luca Varuni, who indicated he studied under Enzo Coccia makes some nice pizzas.  I copied an internet picture below.

Typically I find 3 to 4 oz. of cheese is about right. (80-100 grams)  Do you think that is about right?  I was trying to tear it into very uneven pieces to obtain that random look.  Somehow, when I pull the dressed skin to the peel, the arrangements pile up on one side and I have blobs that are to thick.

Looks like more practice (and eating) is in order!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: hotsawce on June 14, 2019, 03:03:05 AM
Late to the party, but Ciro Salvo has a video on the Italia Saquista YouTube channel where he shows his process for a 24h dough - 0.5g fresh yeast with 5 to 6 hours in bulk and 18 to 19 hours in balls. I think this is something like .03% fresh yeast - seems to be in line with what you’ve mentioned.

I thought this was interesting because I’ve been leaning towards the Da Michele/old Franco manca method Marco developed. That’s long bulk/short ball time, but still over 24 hours - usually something like 18 to 20 + 4 to 6 in balls before use.

But your comments have me reconsidering the longer ball time. If the balled dough is soft, the final pizza must be as well? I wonder how it holds up after the initial 24 hours - later in the evening. I imagine it would be sticky and very slack.

One thing I've noticed when talking about time in balls. In various TV shows and videos from pizzerias in Naples, they often have a very short time in bulk and longer time in balls. The balls also doesn't seem to ferment all that much, as they are not particularly large in size when opened. This is in contrast to what many of us do on the forum, with a shorter time in balls relative to total fermentation.

An example in this episode on NRK (https://tv.nrk.no/serie/landgang/2018/KOID36009017/avspiller) (only available in Norway) where a Swedish cook travels to Naples to learn how to make Neapolitan. They visit AVPN where they leave the bulk for only 20 minutes, then ball and 24 hours at 25C before opening.

In this video with Gino Sorbillo, he leave the dough in bulk for one hour and then 8-9 hours in balls.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E4r0tGfTh68

Have you tried a longer time in balls like many apparently do in Naples? Could that be one of the reasons the dough comes out that soft in Naples pizzerias? Longer time in balls (relative to total fermentation time) obviously makes the dough itself softer to the touch. It wouldn't be far-fetched to assume that the final pizza also becomes softer from this.

The dough might become more difficult to work with and require a gentler touch, but the upside can be worth it.

What are your experiences with this? You recently mentioned 4 hours being ideal for your balls, which is considerably less than what some in Naples do. One factor might be that the doughs aren't allowed to ferment as far as we might do, which makes it more extensible, but judging by the videos already mentioned, there are at least to the eye some significant differences in the level of fermentation used in Naples.

Maybe longer time in balls is more beneficial to the final crumb softness than a higher level of fermentation. If you go with long time in balls and high fermentation, the dough might become too soft to work with. Perhaps less fermentation and longer in balls is the way to go. I wouldn't be surprised if the longest time you can get away with in balls is beneficial.

Another reason one might not want as high fermentation is the accumulation of air. With doughs fermented quite far, I often run into problems with air bubbles in the rim that I have to either pop or cut off after bake since they get incinerated. Less fermentation means less air and possibly a better cornicione.

In the video from AVPN they used 1.8kg of flour and 0.5g of what looked like CY. That's 0.028%, and when looking at Craig's model (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26831.msg349349.html#msg349349) it lines up perfectly with 0.03% CY and 24 hours at 25C. Gino's recipe also seems to fit pretty well. 1.55kg of flour, 1.5g of yeast, making it 0.097% and 8-10 hours fermentation. Again pretty spot on with Craig's model.

Using sourdough might be a contributing factor to some differences. Do you have any thoughts on a comparison of a dough made with CY and one with sourdough for 24 hours and if you'd want them different time in balls?

Looking at the pies by SAUZER (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34731.550) and Antilife (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40885.700), who makes some of the best looking pies in here (too bad we can't taste), they both favor longer time in balls.

Interested to hear your thoughts on this. I want to try myself now.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on June 14, 2019, 06:02:40 AM
I've had a couple of attempts. One with 1 hour bulk, 24 hours in balls and one with 6 hours in bulk and 18 in balls. Both worked really well and the balls were a lot easier to open compared to 6-8 hours in balls.

The final pies were softer than before. After 24 hours they were a bit sticky, but I left then uncovered 30-45 minutes before baking to dry them up a bit. That was too long and 10-15 minutes is probably sufficient.

All in all, I'm pleased with the results from long time in balls and will continue with it.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: hotsawce on June 14, 2019, 01:29:23 PM
I'll give that a go. This is around 0.03% CY? Have you tried with sourdough yet?

I've had a couple of attempts. One with 1 hour bulk, 24 hours in balls and one with 6 hours in bulk and 18 in balls. Both worked really well and the balls were a lot easier to open compared to 6-8 hours in balls.

The final pies were softer than before. After 24 hours they were a bit sticky, but I left then uncovered 30-45 minutes before baking to dry them up a bit. That was too long and 10-15 minutes is probably sufficient.

All in all, I'm pleased with the results from long time in balls and will continue with it.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on June 14, 2019, 01:35:01 PM
I'll give that a go. This is around 0.03% CY? Have you tried with sourdough yet?
That was with sourdough. Never used CY for pizza actually.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: daCaMo on June 14, 2019, 03:32:30 PM
I have made some experiments with long time in balls in the last few weeks. I have used Caputo Couc (the red one), 62,5 - 65% Water, 3% Salt and 0,05%  fresh yeast. I had some really good results last week-today the dough was totally collapsed. No strength at all.. Although I have used the same recipe.

12h bulk / 12h in balls... All at room temp

 
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on June 14, 2019, 05:13:06 PM
I like the look of those. Could the room temperature for the one that collapsed have been higher, making it ferment faster? It doesn't take a lot of temperature difference before it's noticeable, especially when using RT over longer time.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: daCaMo on June 14, 2019, 05:33:56 PM
Maaaaybe... But not more than 0,5 - 1 degree (C°).

I will try 0,03 yeast next time. Generally I really liked the softness and the leoparding of this dough....
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on June 14, 2019, 08:23:05 PM
Arne:  I used buffalo mozz and cut it into match sticks.  I could only find petite cherry tomato size balls.  I could not get the length of one of your pizzas.  However, I did like the way the cheese melted into the sauce.  My SD does not rise as much as my IDY doughs.  Perhaps you or Heijko have some thoughts on why.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 15, 2019, 01:58:51 AM


I have made some experiments with long time in balls in the last few weeks. I have used Caputo Couc (the red one), 62,5 - 65% Water, 3% Salt and 0,05%  fresh yeast. I had some really good results last week-today the dough was totally collapsed. No strength at all.. Although I have used the same recipe.

12h bulk / 12h in balls... All at room temp

They look delicious and also really pretty!

My experience with 65% hydration and up, at room temperature, is that 12 hours in balls required a little more strength upfront or it might have slackness issues later. So in those cases I knead more and make sure the balls are nice and tight too (though that's with Caputo Pizzeria, not Cuoco, so not sure if that applies to your situation).
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 15, 2019, 02:08:13 AM


Arne:  I used buffalo mozz and cut it into match sticks.  I could only find petite cherry tomato size balls.  I could not get the length of one of your pizzas.  However, I did like the way the cheese melted into the sauce.  My SD does not rise as much as my IDY doughs.  Perhaps you or Heijko have some thoughts on why.

I agree that melt looks good! If I were to guess, you might see even more melding of colors (if that's what you're after) if you got hold of some of those 125 g balls. My take is that they are less dense than the smaller once I have tried. Ironically, the small variety is hard to source where I live.

On the SD issue: I am fairly novice in that department. All I can really say is that Salvatore, my Ischia culture (the only SD I've ever gotten to know well), is healthy and gives great results when fed twice a day and kept in a jar on the counter in room temperature. And that it did not perform as well when fed only once a day. I throw away half of the jar and add 100 g of flour and 100 g of water on each feeding.

Hopefully Heikjo can chime in, he seems well traversed in SD territory. :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on June 15, 2019, 02:55:12 AM
Arne:  I used buffalo mozz and cut it into match sticks.  I could only find petite cherry tomato size balls.  I could not get the length of one of your pizzas.  However, I did like the way the cheese melted into the sauce.  My SD does not rise as much as my IDY doughs.  Perhaps you or Heijko have some thoughts on why.
Rise during fermentation or baking?

My IDY pies got more oven spring than my SD ones. I haven't made too many with IDY that I can say it's because of the yeast, but there might be more power in the IDY than my starter. It may be that IDY is simply better at oven spring than SD.

I know some add CY to their doughs with SD to give it a bit more oumph, but I haven't tried myself.

IIRC, SD can be expected to give less spring because the presence of acid in the starter weakens the gluten in the dough. If your starter is healthy and doubles-to-triples as expected, you can try different timings of the bake.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 15, 2019, 05:03:42 AM
Regarding the mozzarella, here's an illustration of today's cuts.

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on June 15, 2019, 07:20:28 AM
Rise during fermentation or baking?

My IDY pies got more oven spring than my SD ones. I haven't made too many with IDY that I can say it's because of the yeast, but there might be more power in the IDY than my starter. It may be that IDY is simply better at oven spring than SD.

I know some add CY to their doughs with SD to give it a bit more oumph, but I haven't tried myself.


Heikjo, I thought about adding a small amount of IDY to the SD.  I may try that next.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on June 15, 2019, 07:22:10 AM
Regarding the mozzarella, here's an illustration of today's cuts.
Thanks Arne:  That is about how I did cut the petite cherry tomato balls.  I agree on the lager size.  Perhaps I will have to try the cut but use the fresh mozz balls that I can find in that size.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: hotsawce on June 15, 2019, 06:11:17 PM
Tried with 1% starter at room temp. 5 hour bulk about 16 hours in balls before I made my first pizza. I didn't love the texture (seems to be a consistent theme with sourdough for me) BUT the balls did seal properly and were easier to open so I'm kind of liking this longer time in balls. Will try it with IDY - probably 0.013% to 0.015%

When using dry yeast, how long is your dough usable for at room temperature? I know all of the guys in Naples are keeping the dough entirely at room temp.

That was with sourdough. Never used CY for pizza actually.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 16, 2019, 06:31:44 AM
Yesterday's pizza party was one of the larger ones this summer with 30 guests and the same amount of pizzas. The timing could not have been better, as summer finally decided to put on it's best show -- for just this one day. It was a fantastic evening with good friends, hot sun, lot's of kids running around and plenty of pizza being cooked.

I had not intended for this to turn into an experiment (and it didn't), but since I had forgotten to overgrow my culture, two different doughs were called for:

Dough 1: 100% Caputo Pizzeria, 62% water, 3% salt and 5% SD.
Dough 2: 100% Caputo Pizzeria, 62% water, 3% salt and 0.043% CY.

Both were fermented at 20.8°C for 22 hours total (6 in bulk, 16 in balls). Lo an behold, they both sat at 26.5 mm in the pluviometer when they were pulled from the fermentation chamber.

The dough was bery good to work with. I thought it was sufficiently relaxed with the right amount of elasticity and stretchability. If anything, it could have stayed even a few more hours in balls (not that it was needed).

I used Solea tomatoes, from the batch that I brought me from my vacation in Italy last year. I remembered describing them as "good but not great" earlier, but that was probably colored by my disappointment that they did not bring back the "Da Michele" taste as I remembered it. I now think these tomatoes are excellent, really among the top tomatoes I have tried. I am actually pondering bringing another suitcase full back this year too (we're going to Italy later this summer), but I expect some push-back on this idea...  :-D

I attach some pictures below, including (with permission) a pose with my better half and one of my good friends (who also happens to be a regular travelling companion on our trips to Naples).



Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on June 16, 2019, 08:42:21 AM
Great looking Pizzas Arne!  Love the melt on the margo!  The Quattro Formaggi is making me hungry now!!  You look pretty snappy in the Caputo wear!!  Our summer pizza party will be near our US July 4 celebration.  Hope to post some nice pies then. 

I'll be in Tuscany later this summer.  Did you buy those tomatoes at the local Coop grocery.  We will have a few pizza partys in the pizza oven at our Villa.  I would like to try them.  I don't think the US Border Patrol will let me bring them home in my suitcase!  :-D

Given you made SD and CY pizzas side by side, did you find a percepitible difference in taste or flavor?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on June 16, 2019, 09:40:45 AM
Sharon looked and said . . . 30 pizzas? He must be crazy, how did he make 30 pizza! Oh, and then pointed out I don’t have 30 friends!


Excellent looking pizza Arne, love the Scarpetta, not an easy one to make for a crowd. Glad you were surrounded by friends and sunshine, nice shirt and hat!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 16, 2019, 09:47:28 AM
Great looking Pizzas Arne!  Love the melt on the margo!  The Quattro Formaggi is making me hungry now!!  You look pretty snappy in the Caputo wear!!  Our summer pizza party will be near our US July 4 celebration.  Hope to post some nice pies then. 

I'll be in Tuscany later this summer.  Did you buy those tomatoes at the local Coop grocery.  We will have a few pizza partys in the pizza oven at our Villa.  I would like to try them.  I don't think the US Border Patrol will let me bring them home in my suitcase!  :-D

Given you made SD and CY pizzas side by side, did you find a percepitible difference in taste or flavor?

Thanks a lot Scott. I'm looking forward to those celebration pies!

I remember having seen several quality brands of tomatos at various Coop stores, but the particular brands escape recollection. I'm not sure if they sell Solea specifically, sorry.
I actually bought the tomatoes online (from specialitadallacampania.it), and since they don't ship to Norway I had them them delivered to the agriturismo where we stayed.

SD vs CY: Yes I think I can sense the difference, especially in the nose. I find the flavor a little fuller/deeper in the SD crust compared to the CY one. I really want to do a blind triangle test one day, because I'm starting to question myself -- very few people reported noticing any difference when I told them.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: jakob8b on June 16, 2019, 10:09:15 AM
Hi Arne

Your pizzas look amazing. I'm very new to pizzamaking, so please bear with my low level questions.

In your recipe for dough 2 you mention 0.043% CY. Is CY cake yeast and is that the same as regular fresh yeast? Also 0.043% sounds low to me, but I guess it's not relative to the long fermentation time. I'm usually making 4 pizzas at the time using 564 grams of flour. 0.043% of 564 equals ~0.243 grams of fresh yeast, is that correct?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on June 16, 2019, 10:43:33 AM
I found my IDY attempts to taste a bit hollow and empty compared to SD. I think I'll try CY some day and compare to SD as well.

The upside of IDY was very little hassle since I just keep a pack of it in the fridge, and the dough felt stronger during opening. Not that there's anything wrong with the SD dough when I do it right, but the acidity from the SD probably weakens it a little.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: hotsawce on June 16, 2019, 12:02:06 PM
Which of the photos were IDY and which were sourdough? These are very pretty pies.

Yesterday's pizza party was one of the larger ones this summer with 30 guests and the same amount of pizzas. The timing could not have been better, as summer finally decided to put on it's best show -- for just this one day. It was a fantastic evening with good friends, hot sun, lot's of kids running around and plenty of pizza being cooked.

I had not intended for this to turn into an experiment (and it didn't), but since I had forgotten to overgrow my culture, two different doughs were called for:

Dough 1: 100% Caputo Pizzeria, 62% water, 3% salt and 5% SD.
Dough 2: 100% Caputo Pizzeria, 62% water, 3% salt and 0.043% CY.

Both were fermented at 20.8°C for 22 hours total (6 in bulk, 16 in balls). Lo an behold, they both sat at 26.5 mm in the pluviometer when they were pulled from the fermentation chamber.

The dough was bery good to work with. I thought it was sufficiently relaxed with the right amount of elasticity and stretchability. If anything, it could have stayed even a few more hours in balls (not that it was needed).

I used Solea tomatoes, from the batch that I brought me from my vacation in Italy last year. I remembered describing them as "good but not great" earlier, but that was probably colored by my disappointment that they did not bring back the "Da Michele" taste as I remembered it. I now think these tomatoes are excellent, really among the top tomatoes I have tried. I am actually pondering bringing another suitcase full back this year too (we're going to Italy later this summer), but I expect some push-back on this idea...  :-D

I attach some pictures below, including (with permission) a pose with my better half and one of my good friends (who also happens to be a regular travelling companion on our trips to Naples).
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 16, 2019, 12:22:42 PM


Sharon looked and said . . . 30 pizzas? He must be crazy, how did he make 30 pizza! Oh, and then pointed out I don’t have 30 friends!


Excellent looking pizza Arne, love the Scarpetta, not an easy one to make for a crowd. Glad you were surrounded by friends and sunshine, nice shirt and hat!

Thanks, Greg I appreciate the comments. Glad you liked my clothing too. I must admit your influence is not limited to pizza making, now I'm taking fashion cues from the Canadian gentleman too. :-D

Yes, the Scarpetta is a pretty labor intensive pizza to prepare. Especially when the list of other toppings to prepare for the same day is long. We had a selection of 10 different pizzas on the menu, so maybe that's a little crazy. But the point is: while the menu yesterday had a lot of items to prepare, I got a lot of help: I picked 20 ingredients from my list and distributed to the invited families. Each brought a few items, and I could focus on the specialty items. Everybody was happy to contribute.

I also kept the hydration low to keep the pressure down, and I made sure the kids were fed first. :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 16, 2019, 12:31:59 PM
Hi Arne

Your pizzas look amazing. I'm very new to pizzamaking, so please bear with my low level questions.

In your recipe for dough 2 you mention 0.043% CY. Is CY cake yeast and is that the same as regular fresh yeast? Also 0.043% sounds low to me, but I guess it's not relative to the long fermentation time. I'm usually making 4 pizzas at the time using 564 grams of flour. 0.043% of 564 equals ~0.243 grams of fresh yeast, is that correct?

Thanks, Jakob. Yes, CY (cake yeast) is just another word for fresh yeast, which is also known as "lievito di birra".

Indeed the amount of yeast is miniscule, but it is appropriate for the given time and temperature. You probably know about Craig's chart? That's what I use for reference, but I use half of the CY amount it suggests (based on experience with the yeast I use).

Your calculations are spot on. In my case, I used 1.068 grams of CY for 2484 grams of flour.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 16, 2019, 12:36:41 PM
Which of the photos were IDY and which were sourdough? These are very pretty pies.

In order of apperance:

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on June 18, 2019, 08:39:52 PM
Recalling conversation re: cheese melt, I came across this, captured quite a while ago from Omid’s pizza place, Strada di Napoli, now closed. Is this “on the sauce” or “with the sauce”?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on June 19, 2019, 09:44:52 AM
Definitely a technique to try to learn!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 19, 2019, 10:28:04 AM
Omids pies always make me drool.

I remember his cheese aesthetics evolved and in my view the photo above is among his best. I like a little randomness in the look.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on June 19, 2019, 09:54:12 PM
Arne - there are lots of people to ask, but you just had a large gathering. Tonight I am making 8 balls of dough which is most unusual, it is usually 3 or 4! Ok some of us have fewer friends, but it has never struck me as I do my stretch and folds - how do you knead stretch and fold enough dough for 30 pizzas. I have always assumed in larger quantities that was handled by larger diving arm mixers etc. As I type that I seem to recall you have a diving arm mixer - correct? Do you stretch and fold 3 kilos of dough, I  can’t imagine.
Odd how scale changes things, just going from 4-8 causes me to ponder, so much for Icelandr’s House of Pizza!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 19, 2019, 11:36:07 PM
Arne - there are lots of people to ask, but you just had a large gathering. Tonight I am making 8 balls of dough which is most unusual, it is usually 3 or 4! Ok some of us have fewer friends, but it has never struck me as I do my stretch and folds - how do you knead stretch and fold enough dough for 30 pizzas. I have always assumed in larger quantities that was handled by larger diving arm mixers etc. As I type that I seem to recall you have a diving arm mixer - correct? Do you stretch and fold 3 kilos of dough, I  can’t imagine.
Odd how scale changes things, just going from 4-8 causes me to ponder, so much for Icelandr’s House of Pizza!
In addition to a Kenwood mixer, I have a Santos fork mixer. Which one I use depends on the amount of dough: up to 8 I typically use the Kenwood. Anything over that and I pull out the Santos. It can take up to 4 kg, enough for 15 dough balls.

Even when using the Santos I am performing at least a few stretch and folds. At max capacity the technique is probably different from the smallrr batches, but what I basically do is grab the mass with both hands, one on each side, pull/stretch to the point where it lifts from the counter. I then flip/fold it mid air and slam it back making it fold over itself. And repeat.

I think this is better illustrated than explained, but I am not able to do so just now (on my way to work).

On the other hand, I have thought about skipping this step several times. At least for low hydration dough, it seems I could get away without it. For high hydration dough I now usually rely on a slightly longer mixing time than before, but still the stretching and folding feels mandatory as I do not have the stomach to leave the dough in the arms of the mixer for very long periods of time.

Good luck on your big bake, I am hoping to see a happy report in your thread soon. :-)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: marcus13668 on June 20, 2019, 04:18:35 AM
In addition to a Kenwood mixer, I have a Santos fork mixer.

Do you notice any difference in gluten development when comparing the santos and the Kenwood mixer?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 20, 2019, 05:46:22 AM
Do you notice any difference in gluten development when comparing the santos and the Kenwood mixer?
Yes there is a big difference.

An example: Say I let a 2 kg dough spend 10 minutes with the Kenwood with spiral attachment, which is a common scenario. The same formula but double the quantity, 4 kg, will receive less than 5 minutes in the Santos.

The reason I compare with double the amount is simply that I don't make small batches on the Santos, so I don't have comparable numbers.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 20, 2019, 12:45:48 PM
how do you knead stretch and fold enough dough for 30 pizzas. I have always assumed in larger quantities that was handled by larger diving arm mixers etc.

Greg, I just made a batch of dough and though I might as well set my phone to record. Below is the resulting clip showing my way of doing "stretch and fold" for a dough mass of about 2.7 kg (at 64% HR by the way).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSXXTbeDmcs

The video shows the second stretch/fold treatment I gave it. It has been resting for 8 minutes at this point. After turning off the camera, I deemed it ready to go into the fermentation box.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 20, 2019, 01:51:48 PM
480 days have gone by since I started this thread. Here's how I presented my mission:

Upon returning from a four-day trip to Naples (...) I came home with a very clear idea of what my ideal pizza dough is. In one word: Sorbillo. (...) the crust is so soft, delicate and flavourful that it takes almost no effort to bite through the puffy cornicione. That's what I want.

How to get there?  ???

I'm taking a moment now to evaluate the current state of affairs and give some advice to my past self.

Mixing process
I am currently using Craig's process as he has described it in detail in his sticky. I get good results, yet perhaps there are things I could do to get a softer, lighter crumb? Icelandr recently reminded me of capturing air through stretch and folds. What other factors might I consider focusing on?

Yes. Keep working on the "mixing process", as you call it. It is very important to develop a good understanding of the state of the dough. The elusive "punto di pasta" is something that is learned only through experience, so keep making pizza and remember to pay close attention to the dough all the way through: how it looks, feels and behaves in your hands. Judging how much strength to build into the dough at bulk and ball is something I'm slowly getting better at, and I've come to understand just how much the answer to that depends on other factors (hydration level, time in bulk, time in balls, temperature to mention some).

Maturation time
I started out making 48 hour RT doughs but have more or less standardized on 24 hour doughs for the past year. Seeming to remember that my cornicione of the past was fluffier, I have made som 48 hour batches recently in order to compare. Not sure that I see much of a difference, to be hones. Something else must give, or?

The maturation time is certainly important, but I think your premise is misguided. The dough you seek is not dependent on a particular maturation time. Instead, the timing should be adapted to the conditions so that optimal consistency is reached.

I know, Arne from 480 days ago, I know you very well. You read the paragraph above and call bullsh**. You think it's all just fluff and no concrete advice. Maybe you are right, maybe not. Give it time. In any case, there is a rabbit hole here somewhere that I'm trying to avoid falling into.

Type of yeast
Will a SD based dough produce a more tender crust than one made with IDY? It could be just in my head, but I remember a couple of years ago when I first started using the Ischia culture, the tenderness improved dramatically. This year, the culture appears to have weakened and is behaving unpredictably, so I have gone back to IDY for a couple of batches. Suddenly the crust was less tender than before. Is this a thing, or all in my head?

Mostly just in your head, friend. The type of yeast does have an impact on the flavor of the crust. Perhaps even on the consistency, I won't rule it out. But the changes in tenderness that you experienced is more likely to be caused by other factors.

Hydration percentage
I admin it: I'm chasing the high of hydration percentages. From starting out with Craig's 62.5%, I have been pushing it gradually up to about 67% now (Caputo Pizzeria BTW). In my mind, this has made for softer and more delicate crust, which is the direction I want (unfortunately, more difficult to handle dough goes with the territory I guess). Drooling over Sauzer's pizzas has confirmed this to me. However, I have started to wonder... Craig's pies look amazing, and from what I have gathered, even at Sorbillo they use relatively low hydration (in the high 50s or possibly low 60s is what I think I have been told). Having seen the pizzaioli at Sorbillo handle the dough though, I just cannot for the life of be believe that they use such low hydrations. I'm at a loss here.

Since you wrote this, I've had more experience with both high and low hydration. Varying the absorption level is fun and the experience is good education. But in your quest for soft, delicate, fluffy crust, this is not the Jedi you are looking for.

What I'm trying to say is that hydration ratio is a big one, but the tenderness you seek is not dependent on high hydration. 

Baking time
Shorter bake time, more soft crust. This seems to be a simple truth, or...?

Sure. Keep the bake time short if you want a softer crust. This requires stable, high temperatures, so getting intimate with the oven, knowing it's particularities and learning how to manage the fire well is equally important.

Dough handling
I have understood from many posts on this forum that handling the dough with grace is important to prevent toughening up the crust. I do believe this, but I am puzzled when I see Napoli pizzaioli pressing down with force, turning, twisting, slapping the dough around. Event pressing down on the cornicione area seems to be common. I understand that these guys are in a different league altogether, but still I wonder about this seeming contradiction.

I don't know how the pros do what they do. Don't sweat it, you're not a pro. The best advice I can give you if you want a delicate crust is to go gentle on the dough, especially during the final phase. If making a high hydration dough, it may be necessary to work it a little harder during mixing and kneading to ensure sufficient gluten development. Just be careful, too much and chewiness is substituted for tenderness.


Other factors
What other factors could help me tune my dough and process toward the my golden standard?

Practice, practice, practice…

Any thoughts welcome! (and who knows, perhaps my future self will follow suit and offer me his advice in another 480 days or so)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on June 20, 2019, 02:12:17 PM
A very profound post, and I can relate a lot in my own experiences & conclusions!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on June 20, 2019, 02:23:08 PM
Well Done, a good read and some interesting conclusions/ suspected outcomes. I have enjoyed your posts, and learned some techniques from them.


As I look back on my pursuits over the same period, I hear my future self say, “winging it again Greg? Why don’t you be more methodical, try reading this thread . . . . .”
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on June 21, 2019, 07:04:24 AM
A very interesting read indeed.  As I think over the 5 pizzas I am to make tonight, I used 61% hydration because my rookie self can seemingly handle that.  Hopefully, I have been "one with the dough" and they will be soft and tender!  Keep practicing!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: vdempsey on June 21, 2019, 09:57:23 AM
A very interesting read indeed.  As I think over the 5 pizzas I am to make tonight, I used 61% hydration because my rookie self can seemingly handle that.  Hopefully, I have been "one with the dough" and they will be soft and tender!  Keep practicing!

Yes, definitely a wonderful thread.  Thank you Arne_Jervell ! Your pizza doughs are beautiful.

Vida
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 22, 2019, 02:02:20 AM
It was a "less than perfect" pizza session yesterday.

The dough: Caputo Pizzeria, 64% water, 2.9% salt, 0.045% cake yeast.
Fermentation: 25 hours (13+12) at 20 C.

The plan was a little ambitious: Start baking pizza two hours after returning from work. That leaves just enough room to heat up the oven while preparing the toppings. Unfortunately, it also meant little room for adjustments.

The yeast was more active than anticipated this time and the pluviometer showed 34 mm when I launched the first pizza. That's a 125% volume increase, much more than I typically aim for (which is in the neighborhood of 75%), a clear indication that the fermentation had gone too fast. My fears were confirmed soon enough. The dough balls were slack and unwilling to cooperate: much weaker than normal, little elasticity and they had started developing that sticky feeling.

The result: I used too much bench flour and was unable to shake it off without risking the integrity of the dough. The most troublesome part was launching. Even the roundest of pies ended up with a more "rustic" form once inside the oven.

But as always, we ended up with pizza. And on a positive note, the crust tasted very good and was both soft and light. Also, I tried a new topping combo that I really liked: Pistachio pesto and mortadella. We tested it with ricotta and with mozzarella. We also experimented with adding some freshly grated lemon peel post bake. The majority thought mozzarella trumped ricotta, and that the lemon peel was a nice touch that complemented the pistachio pesto (which also contained this). Adds a pleasant fresh aroma too.

I used the pistachio pesto recipe found here (https://ricette.giallozafferano.it/Pesto-di-pistacchi.html). Next time I think I will make it a little wetter than this, but the taste was excellent!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on June 22, 2019, 10:25:55 AM
Ahh, Pizza, so satisfying because there are so few variables, with just 4 ingredients, a little time, a little fire . . . . . Oh, so relaxing.

OK, perhaps not, but we are all “hooked” and when not planning we are baking. A good post, not the outcome you desired but it adds another “Its not as easy as it looks” to your backdrop of outstanding bakes, stuff happens.

The pistachio pesto sounds interesting, you keep me going with your inventive toppings and presentations, recalling for one, The Scarpetta, which we enjoyed recently. I look forward to the next post, I am sure it will be soon, partly to determine what variants caused the issues this time.
All the best from Sunny Gabriola
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on June 22, 2019, 11:18:19 AM
Again, the cheese melt into the tomato on the Margherita is spot on!  "Rustic" pies, I like that.  I can relate oh so well!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: hotsawce on June 22, 2019, 11:40:21 AM
Even your mistakes are beautiful, but it's amazing to me that you don't have issues with the caputo and higher hydration. My dough was a sticky mess at less than 24h room temperature.

It was a "less than perfect" pizza session yesterday.

The dough: Caputo Pizzeria, 64% water, 2.9% salt, 0.045% cake yeast.
Fermentation: 25 hours (13+12) at 20 C.

The plan was a little ambitious: Start baking pizza two hours after returning from work. That leaves just enough room to heat up the oven while preparing the toppings. Unfortunately, it also meant little room for adjustments.

The yeast was more active than anticipated this time and the pluviometer showed 34 mm when I launched the first pizza. That's a 125% volume increase, much more than I typically aim for (which is in the neighborhood of 75%), a clear indication that the fermentation had gone too fast. My fears were confirmed soon enough. The dough balls were slack and unwilling to cooperate: much weaker than normal, little elasticity and they had started developing that sticky feeling.

The result: I used too much bench flour and was unable to shake it off without risking the integrity of the dough. The most troublesome part was launching. Even the roundest of pies ended up with a more "rustic" form once inside the oven.

But as always, we ended up with pizza. And on a positive note, the crust tasted very good and was both soft and light. Also, I tried a new topping combo that I really liked: Pistachio pesto and mortadella. We tested it with ricotta and with mozzarella. We also experimented with adding some freshly grated lemon peel post bake. The majority thought mozzarella trumped ricotta, and that the lemon peel was a nice touch that complemented the pistachio pesto (which also contained this). Adds a pleasant fresh aroma too.

I used the pistachio pesto recipe found here (https://ricette.giallozafferano.it/Pesto-di-pistacchi.html). Next time I think I will make it a little wetter than this, but the taste was excellent!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Hanglow on June 22, 2019, 11:49:06 AM
What's your water like hotsawce? I struggled with sticky doughs a fair bit untill I found out about adding more calcium with gypsum or calcium chloride to my very soft water, it helped the doughs firm up a tad. Of course it might be something else .

I have a bunch of pistachios left from trying a Rosa, so I'll give that pesto a go next time I cook. Really like that matchstick look to the Margherita too
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Roberto_buonissimo on June 27, 2019, 06:23:36 AM
Yesterday's pizza party was one of the larger ones this summer with 30 guests and the same amount of pizzas. The timing could not have been better, as summer finally decided to put on it's best show -- for just this one day. It was a fantastic evening with good friends, hot sun, lot's of kids running around and plenty of pizza being cooked.

I had not intended for this to turn into an experiment (and it didn't), but since I had forgotten to overgrow my culture, two different doughs were called for:

Dough 1: 100% Caputo Pizzeria, 62% water, 3% salt and 5% SD.
Dough 2: 100% Caputo Pizzeria, 62% water, 3% salt and 0.043% CY.

Both were fermented at 20.8°C for 22 hours total (6 in bulk, 16 in balls). Lo an behold, they both sat at 26.5 mm in the pluviometer when they were pulled from the fermentation chamber.

The dough was bery good to work with. I thought it was sufficiently relaxed with the right amount of elasticity and stretchability. If anything, it could have stayed even a few more hours in balls (not that it was needed).

I used Solea tomatoes, from the batch that I brought me from my vacation in Italy last year. I remembered describing them as "good but not great" earlier, but that was probably colored by my disappointment that they did not bring back the "Da Michele" taste as I remembered it. I now think these tomatoes are excellent, really among the top tomatoes I have tried. I am actually pondering bringing another suitcase full back this year too (we're going to Italy later this summer), but I expect some push-back on this idea...  :-D

I attach some pictures below, including (with permission) a pose with my better half and one of my good friends (who also happens to be a regular travelling companion on our trips to Naples).

Arne your Pizzas are just FANTASTIC !!! Love your work and your passion - simply amazing - thanks for the thread and the great tips !  :chef: :chef: :chef:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 30, 2019, 01:45:31 PM
A long beautiful summer day was the perfect occation for yesterday's pizza party. It was another big one, we were right around 30 people. Grown-ups only this time, and also known as a hungry bunch. I was busy for hours.

For practical reasons I had to make a number of changes to my usual routine for these doughs. The total fermentation time was "only" 19 hours, and 17 of them were spent in balls. Thus I opted for a lower HR at 62% (salt was at 3% and SD at 4.2%). The fermentation temperature was 22.5 °C.

After making the first batch of dough, enough for 15 balls, using Caputo Pizzeria, I feld I had to try my hands on Caputo Biologica again. So I made the second 15-ball batch with this flour. Given my previous experience with Biologica, however, I though I'd better have some backup. I therefore decided to made a third batch of dough using my good old friend Caputo Pizzeria, just in case.  ::)

They all turned out good in the end; the fermentation went as planned and the resulting pizzas were well received. The dough made from Caputo Biologica seemed slightly weaker than the one made from Caputo Pizzeria. Still very usable, but it felt just a touch more fragile. I am hoping to do a more focused side-by-side later on, unless I run out of Pizzeria first...

Big parties are lots of fun! Still, I'm looking forward to smaller bakes going forward.  :chef:

As always, some pictures below.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Wario on June 30, 2019, 02:10:28 PM
Those pizza's look amazing! Better than many i have eaten in Italy! Neapolitan pizza and sunshine... Sounds like a hell of a party!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on June 30, 2019, 02:37:39 PM
A long beautiful summer day was the perfect occation for yesterday's pizza party. It was another big one, we were right around 30 people. Grown-ups only this time, and also known as a hungry bunch. I was busy for hours.

For practical reasons I had to make a number of changes to my usual routine for these doughs. The total fermentation time was "only" 19 hours, and 17 of them were spent in balls. Thus I opted for a lower HR at 62% (salt was at 3% and SD at 4.2%). The fermentation temperature was 22.5 °C.

After making the first batch of dough, enough for 15 balls, using Caputo Pizzeria, I feld I had to try my hands on Caputo Biologica again. So I made the second 15-ball batch with this flour. Given my previous experience with Biologica, however, I though I'd better have some backup. I therefore decided to made a third batch of dough using my good old friend Caputo Pizzeria, just in case.  ::)

They all turned out good in the end; the fermentation went as planned and the resulting pizzas were well received. The dough made from Caputo Biologica seemed slightly weaker than the one made from Caputo Pizzeria. Still very usable, but it felt just a touch more fragile. I am hoping to do a more focused side-by-side later on, unless I run out of Pizzeria first...

Big parties are lots of fun! Still, I'm looking forward to smaller bakes going forward.  :chef:

As always, some pictures below.

Great looking pizzas Arne.  You are a warrior, 30 guests!!

I'm in the planning process of some pizzas now and was curious how you came to 4.2% SD.  At 22.5c, Craig's chart would be 2%. 
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 30, 2019, 03:02:35 PM
Those pizza's look amazing! Better than many i have eaten in Italy! Neapolitan pizza and sunshine... Sounds like a hell of a party!

Thanks you for the nice complement. Yes, it was a fantastic party! These days it never really gets dark either, so we spent all day and much of the night outside. I love the Norwegian summer.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 30, 2019, 03:08:41 PM
Great looking pizzas Arne.  You are a warrior, 30 guests!!

I'm in the planning process of some pizzas now and was curious how you came to 4.2% SD.  At 22.5c, Craig's chart would be 2%.

Thanks you, Scott. Yes, I see that Craig's chart specifies 2% for 24 hours at 22.2°C. However, I fermented for 19 hours only, which lands somewhere between 4 and 5%. I use linear interpolation to calculate the value for my exact 22.5°C/19h combo. That value turns out to 4.2%. Probably way too specific, but you know me... :-)
 
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on June 30, 2019, 04:24:38 PM
Thanks you, Scott. Yes, I see that Craig's chart specifies 2% for 24 hours at 22.2°C. However, I fermented for 19 hours only, which lands somewhere between 4 and 5%. I use linear interpolation to calculate the value for my exact 22.5°C/19h combo. That value turns out to 4.2%. Probably way too specific, but you know me... :-)
Linear interpolation, I should have know better! ::)   :-D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: hotsawce on June 30, 2019, 08:26:44 PM
The Caputo biologica has a lower W value which means there was probably more enzymatic activity in your dough, so this makes sense. I think it is also slightly lower protein.

Question about the long time in balls - would you mind posting a photo of the bottom of the doughballs next time? I did 12 hours in balls on poplar and for some of the dough it just sucked out a little too much moisture I think, but maybe I'm not used to it yet?

A long beautiful summer day was the perfect occation for yesterday's pizza party. It was another big one, we were right around 30 people. Grown-ups only this time, and also known as a hungry bunch. I was busy for hours.

For practical reasons I had to make a number of changes to my usual routine for these doughs. The total fermentation time was "only" 19 hours, and 17 of them were spent in balls. Thus I opted for a lower HR at 62% (salt was at 3% and SD at 4.2%). The fermentation temperature was 22.5 °C.

After making the first batch of dough, enough for 15 balls, using Caputo Pizzeria, I feld I had to try my hands on Caputo Biologica again. So I made the second 15-ball batch with this flour. Given my previous experience with Biologica, however, I though I'd better have some backup. I therefore decided to made a third batch of dough using my good old friend Caputo Pizzeria, just in case.  ::)

They all turned out good in the end; the fermentation went as planned and the resulting pizzas were well received. The dough made from Caputo Biologica seemed slightly weaker than the one made from Caputo Pizzeria. Still very usable, but it felt just a touch more fragile. I am hoping to do a more focused side-by-side later on, unless I run out of Pizzeria first...

Big parties are lots of fun! Still, I'm looking forward to smaller bakes going forward.  :chef:

As always, some pictures below.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 01, 2019, 04:12:46 AM


The Caputo biologica has a lower W value which means there was probably more enzymatic activity in your dough, so this makes sense. I think it is also slightly lower protein.

The Caputo website says 12.0% protein and W 250/270 for Biologica, whole Pizzeria is quoted as 12.5% protein and W 260/270. Not a huge difference but perhaps enough to notice.

Question about the long time in balls - would you mind posting a photo of the bottom of the doughballs next time? I did 12 hours in balls on poplar and for some of the dough it just sucked out a little too much moisture I think, but maybe I'm not used to it yet?

Sure! The bottom is a little dry as you say, but it's difficult to describe just how much/little, so a picture might help get it across. I'll snap the bottom next time I ferment on wood and post it here.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 11, 2019, 06:07:47 PM
During a day between travelling an opportunity for a spontaneous pizza session presented itself. I'm fresh out of my go-to flour so this time the dough was 100% Caputo Biologica. Also:

Mixed with my Santos fork mixer for 3.5 minutes, followed by two sets of stretch & folds, then fermented for 16.5 hours (8.5+8) at 19.0°C.

Working with Biologica is certainly a different experience than Pizzeria! Once again I notice a dough that requires a lighter touch than what I'm used to for an otherwise similar formulation. I also think the final result reflects this. At least the crust was very light and tender.

I had just stumbled upon licorice powder, a substance I've never had any use for, but which has peaked my curiosity ever since I tasted the AnaNascosta at Pepe in Grani earlier this spring: A fried cone of dough filled with cream of Grana Padano, a slice of pineapple wrapped in San Daniele ham and with a sprinkle of licorice powder.

Inspired by Pepe's original creation, but ditching the deep fryer and opting for a standard oven baked crust instead, I topped my crust with Parmigiano cream, cut it in four and added San Daniele wrapped pineapple and a sprinkling of licorice powder. Each quarter was then rolled up for surving out of a cup.

Fun and delicious!

Question about the long time in balls - would you mind posting a photo of the bottom of the doughballs next time? I did 12 hours in balls on poplar and for some of the dough it just sucked out a little too much moisture I think, but maybe I'm not used to it yet?

Hotsawce, I fermented on wood this time so I've include a photo of the bottom of the ball below, despite the shorter time in balls this time. However, I actually don't think it looks very different from the ones that have an extended fermentation.

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on July 11, 2019, 08:28:10 PM
Arne:

You interpretation of the AnaNascosta looks terrific.  I love how you take the masters creations and make them your own.  The Margherita is top notch, as always.  I see you used CY.  Is your Sourdough not cooperating or just not ready for the spontaneous bake?

I am curious about your proofing box.  Did you make it yourself?  What is the wood and what are the dimensions?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 12, 2019, 12:38:23 AM


Arne:

You interpretation of the AnaNascosta looks terrific.  I love how you take the masters creations and make them your own.  The Margherita is top notch, as always.  I see you used CY.  Is your Sourdough not cooperating or just not ready for the spontaneous bake?

I am curious about your proofing box.  Did you make it yourself?  What is the wood and what are the dimensions?

Thank you Scott. The reason for using CY is that my sourdough was put in the fridge while I'm on vacation. I'm only home for 36 hours to repack so thought it was safer to use cake yeast than using a potentially grumpy SD. :)

I purchased my wooden boxes online. They are made from fir wood and have inner dimensions of 40 cm x 60 cm x 7.5 cm (16" x 24" x 3"). I think 15 balls fit nicely, and for 12 there is plenty of room. Below that I usually opt for my smaller plastic boxes instead.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 13, 2019, 05:39:27 PM
Since I built my WFO and started making Neapolitan Pizza, I have been collecting pretty detailed notes from my bakes. With a little time away from the oven, I decided to do some analysis on these records and see if I could find some interesting relationships or trends.

I'm especially interested in looking at fermentation times and hydration ratios for dough based on Caputo Pizzeria, a subject that has been discussed a bit recently in other threads. I have already developed an "intuition", and I have offered my views and advice based on this. Now I'm curious if my data agrees.

So many words!
This turned into a length post. Sorry. I've tried to be brief, but a few things needed explaining.

If you just want to read the conclusions, I've attempted a simple summary in the bottom of this post.


Data set

From the 100 most recent batches I've made with 100% Caputo Pizzeria, I entered the following key statistics into a spreadsheet:

With the goal of evaluating how these parameters affect the quality of the finished dough, each row in the spreadsheet was amended with a subjective quality assessment of "Good", "OK" or "Bad", digested from my written evaluation in the logs.


Dough quality

For the purpose of this analysis, the term "dough quality" is related primarily to its handling properties, how well it behaves during shaping, dressing, transfer and launch: Is it easy to work with or a sticky mess? Does it carry its weight or will it disintegrate when moved around? Can I launch it or will it stubbornly stick to the peel?

It would have been interesting to take into account matters of flavor, texture, cornicione size, browning properties etc too, but alas I do not have good enough records to allow for this here.

So the quality scores are meant to be understood as follows:

As shown in figure 1 below, 15 out of 100 batches were rated as "Bad", 16/100 as "Ok" and the remaining 69% as "Good".


Water

My sample set contains hydration rates ranging from 59% to 72%. Rounded off to the nearest whole percentage value, the distribution looks like figure 2, attached.

As a start, I wanted to see how HR affected the dough quality. To do this, I divided the data set in three distinct "buckets" based on the water to flour ratio:

The values for x and y were chosen so that the three buckets contained about the same number of elements, both to insure sufficient number of samples in each bucket and to counter any personal biases that might otherwise affect the segmentation. Of course, this means that the high/medium/low labels I'm assigning here are relatively to my data set; they do not imply any objective definition of hydration levels in general.

With x=63.5 and y=66.5, the three buckets each contain between 31 and 35 elements:

Figure 3 below shows a bar chart that illustrates the relative quality distribution as a function of hydration rate only. It suggests a relationship between HR and dough quality that can be summarized as follows: With increasing hydration rate, my quality issues increase (red bars) and I produce fewer good doughs (dark green bars).

No surprises there. I believe it is rather uncontroversial to suggest that wetter doughs are generally more difficult to handle than similar drier doughs (within reason).


Time

I proceeded to segment the (full) data set into three new buckets, this time based on total fermentation time, in the exact same way that I did for the hydration rate. With times ranging from 9 to 48 hours, the resulting buckets looked like this:

The resulting quality distribution is shown in the bar chart of figure 4. It shows the same general relationship as was seen for hydration, but the trend is even clearer: Increased fermentation time increases the probability of seeing quality issues, both severe (red bars) and less severe (light green bars).

The difference in quality between the doughs fermented for less than 24 hours and the ones fermented for 25 hours or more is very pronounced. While 8% of the "Short" batches resulted in "Bad" dough, almost three times as many (23%) of the "Long" batches did. Adding to this, 81% of the "Short" fermented variants were "Good", compared to only 54% of the "Long" ones.


Water + time

To see the combined effect of hydration rate and total fermentation time, I created a 3x3 matrix where each cell represents a particular combination of HR and time ranges. See figure 5. Moving from left to right, the hydration level increases; moving from top to bottom, the total fermentation time increases.

Each cell contains a number that represents the "success rate" for the HR/time combination represented by that cell; the higher the number, the higher the average dough quality. For visual clarity, this number also controls the background color of the cell: The more green, the higher the relative success rate; the more red, the lower the relative success rate. Finally, the font size is adjusted to indicate the sample size for the cell (smaller font means smaller sample size, bigger font means bigger sample size).

Like before the general trend seems clear: Lower hydration and shorter fermentation times yield a higher success rate. The matrix also appears to suggest that time may be a somewhat bigger factor than water, although that observation is less certain.

With reference to the recent discussion about how long fermentation times Caputo Pizzeria is suitable for, I read the results above as empirical support for the notion that CP performs *best* for shorter doughs, and that it *can* be used for longer doughs as well; the former is easier than the latter to pull off successfully. When using longer fermentation times, decreasing the HR can be useful to increase the success rate.


Temperature

To see what effect temperature might have on dough quality, the full data set was once again split in three, now based on temperature. Temperatures were in the range 17 to 24.6 °C, and the resulting buckets were:

The resulting plot is shown in figure 6. It shows that higher fermentation temperatures have resulted in higher quality dough than have lower temperatures.

On the surface this may sound counter intuitive, until the connection with fermentation time is made. In practice, changes in temperature from one dough to another usually also involves changing the fermentation time. At least for me: I generally try to adapt to the ambient temperature available. I do this by adjusting fermentation time and yeast amounts to match. Therefore, higher temperatures usually imply shorter fermentation times.

Looking at only one factor, fermentation temperature, may therefore be a little misleading without also considering the dough fermentation times. So I went on to calculate the derived quantity "degree-days", i.e. the temperature in °C multiplied by the fermentation time in days (I use the unit "d°C" to signify this).

As an example to illustrate what this means, a 24 hour dough fermented at a room temperature of 20 °C would have received 20 d°C (=1 d * 20 °C). If instead the dough sat for 36 hours at the same temperature, it would have received 30 d°C (= 1.5 d * 20 °C).

Now, using the same bucket approach as before, I split my data set into the following segments:

Figure 7 shows the resulting quality distributions for each segment. This chart seems to demonstrate a trend where a higher "degree-day load" results in a lower quality dough (in my hands).

While this result does feels more intuitive to me, and I know that time multiplied by temperature has applications in other areas (for example dry aging), I am not really that familiar with the concept and felt the need to dig a little deeper still. I wanted to look at the combined effect of temperature and total fermentation time more directly and figured a 3x3 matrix might accomplish this.

Figure 8 shows the result. Each cell represents a particular combination of time and temperature ranges. Moving from left to right, the temperature increases; moving from top to bottom, the total fermentation time increases. The success score was computed as described previously, and color coding and font sizes were applied similarly.

At the first glance it appears that we again see the somewhat unexpected trend that warmer temperatures yield higher quality. But on closer inspection, we see a more complex picture.

Looking at the top row first, it represents all "Short" fermentations (less than 24 hours). For these doughs, changes in fermentation time appear to have little or no effect on dough quality. All three cells that make up this row have large font sizes, indicating a good sized data set to back up this view.

Moving down to the middle row, we now consider medium length fermentations (24-25 hours). For this duration, we see that medium and high temperatures yield doughs of similar or slightly lower quality overall compared to the shorter fermentations. The data sets here are large too. Now the leftmost cell, containing doughs made with the coolest of temperatures, shows a sharp decrease in quality. However, the font size is very small, which means there exist very few data points for this combination of time and temperature. We should therefore be careful not to put too much weight on this particular cell. Perhaps we are looking at outliers/noise/random variation and not an "actual" relationship.

Finally, the bottom most row. Looking at font sizes first, it is evident that only the leftmost cell has a decent sized data backing it. This is the cell for cool temperatures. The two rightmost cells have very few doughs behind them and are therefore not very reliable data points. This actually makes sense: The bottom row represents long fermentations and those are typically done at cooler temps.

In summary, figures 6, 7 and 8 suggest a combined effect as follows:


Rise

A while ago I started using a graduated cylinder (pluviometer) as a tool to monitor the fermentation by tracking the amount of rise as time passes. Everytime I make a batch of dough now, I place an 80 gram ball in the cylinder, cover it and let it sit together with the bulk/balls so it experiences the same temperature etc. Then when I start making pizza, I note down how far the ball has risen. Since I always start with the same amount of dough, the starting level is fixed, and I can compute the rise factor by dividing the end level with the start level.

How much rise gives the best dough? To find out, I split my data set into three roughly equally sized buckets based on rise factor (for 23 of the doughs, I did not have pluviometer data, so only 77 doughs were considered here). The resulting segments were:

Figure 9 shows the resulting quality distribution. I was intrigued to discover that the data seemed to provide support for my oft-repeated intuition that I prefer a rise of about 1.7 x, or 70% (corresponding to a pluviometer level of about 26).

Inspired by this, I decided to split the data into five buckets to see more details. Since I don't have that much data to work with, a more detailed view may be less trustworthy. But for kicks I proceeded, and figure 10 shows the result. It corroborates with figure 9 and suggests an ideal rise of 1.7 - 2.0 x.


Summary

From 100 batches of dough made from 100% Caputo Pizzeria, I've made:

Analysing this data indicate the following trends:

No claims are made to the universality or even correctness of these findings. They are collected from a single person and over a period of time where there has been development and much random happenstance. They are analyzed with simple means and an amateurish methodology.

Nevertheless I find them interesting, and I hope they can be useful to others too.

Also, now I actually have data to back up my intuition. :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 13, 2019, 05:40:06 PM
More figures...
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on July 13, 2019, 06:22:03 PM
Kick ass! :D

It seems to parallel a lot of what I've been taught and also what I've experienced myself.

Wish I'd have kept better records and could do the same.

I take my hat off for such a scientific approach to quantify results!

Going to study these graphs for a while..
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: DoouBall on July 13, 2019, 08:28:19 PM
That's awesome, Arne! I'm sure this will help a lot of folks here refine their own game. I also wish I had kept such detailed records - sounds like you've found your sweet spot!

Alex
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Irishboy on July 13, 2019, 10:19:36 PM
Awesome information,
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on July 14, 2019, 09:34:51 AM
Really good stuff Arne!  As I studied over the charts, I wondered if a multi-line graph could be created to pinpoint the exact cross of perfection based on your analysis.  I can envision a chart but don't know how to create it.  Example below.

Also, do you feel there would be a difference in CY or SD?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 15, 2019, 04:13:20 PM


Really good stuff Arne!  As I studied over the charts, I wondered if a multi-line graph could be created to pinpoint the exact cross of perfection based on your analysis.  I can envision a chart but don't know how to create it.  Example below.

Also, do you feel there would be a difference in CY or SD?

Thanks those are good ideas! I think I understand your multi-line idea and I'll give it a shot. As for SD/yeast that is information that I should be able to find. Also, perhaps better, I might be able to analyze amounts. Could be interesting maybe.

Will get back on this. :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Fat_Tony on July 19, 2019, 01:58:54 PM
Finally got some time to read your last epic post... Dude, I just have to say that I respect the science! Awesome work.

My sister and brother in-law have a WFO that they use on occasion, mostly when family comes over. I was over there the other day and I was getting ready to leave as it was about 6pm and (knowing I'm into pizza making) he says to me, "I'm just going to fire up the oven and make a pizza dough.." and I'm like "uhhh.. What?! You're going to make a dough that fast?!"... Anyway, I should direct him to your last post. It would blow his mind! I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think pizza making is as hard as you want it to be and whatever you know to be "good quality" pizza. I want to make him a 24hr dough and show him fermentation and let him know what he's missing. Maybe he'll wake up as I once did..
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: rdbedwards on July 19, 2019, 07:30:01 PM
Finally got some time to read your last epic post... Dude, I just have to say that I respect the science! Awesome work.

My sister and brother in-law have a WFO that they use on occasion, mostly when family comes over. I was over there the other day and I was getting ready to leave as it was about 6pm and (knowing I'm into pizza making) he says to me, "I'm just going to fire up the oven and make a pizza dough.." and I'm like "uhhh.. What?! You're going to make a dough that fast?!"... Anyway, I should direct him to your last post. It would blow his mind! I guess what I'm trying to say is that I think pizza making is as hard as you want it to be and whatever you know to be "good quality" pizza. I want to make him a 24hr dough and show him fermentation and let him know what he's missing. Maybe he'll wake up as I once did..

Did you stick around to see the results from the instant dough?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 20, 2019, 06:09:41 AM
Following up as promised, though perhaps not adding much... ;)

Of the 100 batches in the data set, 74 were SD based and 26 were made with yeast (CY or IDY).

Using SD:
- 69% were "Good"
- 19% were "OK"
- 12% were "Bad"

For yeast:
- 69% were "Good"
- 8% were "OK"
- 23% were "Bad"

It could be that I have too little a data set to really see a difference, but if one exists then it looks like I'm slightly more successful with SD than with yeast (with respect to the definition of "Quality" stated in my original post).

I also segmented the data from the 74 SD batches in three buckets basen on the amount of SD used. The results (table attached) show that increasing amounts of SD correlate with slightly better quality scores. This makes sense, since higher amounts of SD are associated with shorter fermentation times, and (as shown before) shorter fermentation times have a higher average quality score than longer ones.

Now, if I'd only had better tasting notes...
Title: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: DoouBall on July 20, 2019, 11:50:47 AM
Arne, your results make a lot of sense because Pizzeria tends to get quite slack past 24 hours at room temperature. Caputo sales rep in Florida recommended doing less than 24 hours with Pizzeria. You can definitely go over but the dough gets relaxed, extensible and harder to work. This is especially true with sourdough because the starter initiates proteolysis which degrades the gluten even more than commercial yeast, according to my class at SFBI.

Matthew has had great results with 48 hour Caputo using Caputo Rosso, a higher strength flour than Pizzeria. That might be worth a shot if you want to try a different flour. Alternatively you can go 72 hours with Pizzeria if you switch to cold ferment.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on July 20, 2019, 01:23:36 PM
You can always manipulate dough elasticity by changing time in balls. How the difference in gluten and dough properties besides what you can feel when handling it, I don't know.

Great work again, Arne! I'll need to read through this more than once.

I wondered about one thing. The last table doesn't include fermentation time. Are there samples of 48 hour doughs in different rows (not just the ones with least starter) since you had to increase the amount of starter when it didn't perform consistently?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 21, 2019, 03:07:04 AM
Arne, your results make a lot of sense because Pizzeria tends to get quite slack past 24 hours at room temperature. Caputo sales rep in Florida recommended doing less than 24 hours with Pizzeria. You can definitely go over but the dough gets relaxed, extensible and harder to work. This is especially true with sourdough because the starter initiates proteolysis which degrades the gluten even more than commercial yeast, according to my class at SFBI.

I like your careful wording there. :) Sometimes when this gets discussed it can be perceived as a little black and white. It is not, of course, there are gray zones and ways of dealing with issues that may arise. I think my data backs this up nicely.

You can always manipulate dough elasticity by changing time in balls.

I agree, as long as the fermentation is under control otherwise, late balling can help mitigate handling issues for such long fermentation times.

Then again, for a two day ferments at high hydration with CP, I hold the view that a keen eye on gluten development early on is vital too.


I wondered about one thing. The last table doesn't include fermentation time. Are there samples of 48 hour doughs in different rows (not just the ones with least starter) since you had to increase the amount of starter when it didn't perform consistently?

Yes, partially. The first two rows both contain 44 hour doughs, but the last one does not. Below I've attached a table with avg/min/max times for the different amounts. While the average time decreases with increased amounts of SD, there is clearly also some overlap. This is partially due to the issues you mentioned when my SD was not performing well. Another factor of course is fermentation temp.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on July 21, 2019, 02:49:45 PM
Arne, your results make a lot of sense because Pizzeria tends to get quite slack past 24 hours at room temperature. Caputo sales rep in Florida recommended doing less than 24 hours with Pizzeria. You can definitely go over but the dough gets relaxed, extensible and harder to work. This is especially true with sourdough because the starter initiates proteolysis which degrades the gluten even more than commercial yeast, according to my class at SFBI.

Based on the chart and information from DoouBall, one could make the argument it is time contributing more toward "bad" vs the amount of SD used.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 21, 2019, 03:01:11 PM

Based on the chart and information from DoouBall, one could make the argument it is time contributing more toward "bad" vs the amount of SD used.

I agree with that interpretation 100%.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 22, 2019, 10:55:46 AM
Greetings from Greve in Chianti where I'm on holiday with my family. Since this is the "Doughs of my life" thread I think it's appropriate to tell you about last night's pizza at Lo Spela (even if it's not Neapolitan style).

Their pizza was fantastic. Top quality toppings and their crust was simply amazing! It was the "crisp Italian" base. But what struck me most was the richly fresh flavor of the crust. It was heavenly! From the taste of the flour to what must have been a perfectly executed fermentation. I don't know much about their dough and did not get a chance to chat, but I think they use some sort of natural yeast/culture. Anyway, just perfect!

I had both a margarita and a marinara. In addition I tried the "Regina Margherita" which was more like a foccaccia style pie with raw/uncooked toppings. Also really good. A bit far from my typical choice, but delicious nonetheless.

The margherita below. Cheers from beautiful Toscana.

I'll start baking again soon.

Edit: From their website I just learned that they use flour from Molino Quaglia, various types. The leavening and fermentation is said to be 30 hours minimum, with a preferment as I understand it.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on July 22, 2019, 11:03:53 AM
Great Post Arne, wish I could join you for a meal, the pizza looks great. Once again I am envious of your relative proximity to Italy. Enjoy your family holiday and the food.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: HansB on July 22, 2019, 11:36:35 AM
Greve in Chianti is one of my favorite places, enjoy!!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on July 22, 2019, 09:10:56 PM
And, I see you must also be enjoying a glass of something that shouts Sangiovese!   :-D  Enjoy your Holiday Arne!!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on July 28, 2019, 07:19:00 AM
Did you ever draw a conclusion about higher/lower hydration dough and what made it less appealing to you?  Maybe dough handling, crust structure, gumminess, etc?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 29, 2019, 03:09:59 AM
How did you like the 70% HR compared to your usual ones? You've recently tried 59%, 65% and 70%. What's your takeaway when considering your goal in the first post?

Did you ever draw a conclusion about higher/lower hydration dough and what made it less appealing to you?  Maybe dough handling, crust structure, gumminess, etc?

For a long time I was convinced that pushing hydration as high as possible was one of the primary factors to achieve a dough similar to the "Sorbillo experience" that I keep bringing up. So, I've spent a lot of effort working toward the goal of maximizing the absorption rate in my Caputo Pizzeria based doughs.

While increasing the water percentage of the dough, the main problem I faced was handling. With time I learned strategies and techniques that helped make a more manageable dough (like "reading" point of pasta, adjusting time in balls and using slightly harder water), and as I also accumulated experience with handling wet dough, I reached my current personal high of 70% HR (that is counting only"Good" dough, 72% HR if I include the "Bad" ones).

As I climbed the watery ladder, I started to notice a few changes that I did not particularly like, however. With my usual procedure and technique, the crust started to lose some of its appeal. Ok, it was soft and very airy -- but perhaps too airy. It gradually started to lose structure, and flavor too. To counter this I tried heavier mixing and kneading, which did work to a degree to mitigate the structure problem. It appeared to introduce some other issues, though; most notably what I perceived as a tougher crust. That's just the opposite of what I want.

There may be ways around that too, but after this realization I reverted back to a lower HR again, to see how I liked. After a long time in the higher ranges, it felt really good! Taste, consistency, texture, color, almost everyting seems to line up really well around 62%. So that's where I now spend much of my time.

That said, I believe I want to push it up some. Perhaps somewhere between 63% and 65% would be ideal. I will experiment more to find out, but only after I buy me some more Caputo Pizzeria (at this point, I use only Caputo Biologica, which seems to have pretty different properties compared to Pizzeria, including water absorption).


Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Michiel on July 29, 2019, 04:04:40 AM
A long beautiful summer day was the perfect occation for yesterday's pizza party. It was another big one, we were right around 30 people. Grown-ups only this time, and also known as a hungry bunch. I was busy for hours.

For practical reasons I had to make a number of changes to my usual routine for these doughs. The total fermentation time was "only" 19 hours, and 17 of them were spent in balls. Thus I opted for a lower HR at 62% (salt was at 3% and SD at 4.2%). The fermentation temperature was 22.5 °C.

After making the first batch of dough, enough for 15 balls, using Caputo Pizzeria, I feld I had to try my hands on Caputo Biologica again. So I made the second 15-ball batch with this flour. Given my previous experience with Biologica, however, I though I'd better have some backup. I therefore decided to made a third batch of dough using my good old friend Caputo Pizzeria, just in case.  ::)

They all turned out good in the end; the fermentation went as planned and the resulting pizzas were well received. The dough made from Caputo Biologica seemed slightly weaker than the one made from Caputo Pizzeria. Still very usable, but it felt just a touch more fragile. I am hoping to do a more focused side-by-side later on, unless I run out of Pizzeria first...

Big parties are lots of fun! Still, I'm looking forward to smaller bakes going forward.  :chef:

As always, some pictures below.

Hi Arne,
Beautiful pizzas as everything in this thread!
How much do your dough balls weigh and what is their rolled out size?

Thanks!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on July 29, 2019, 04:15:22 AM
Thank you Arne!

It's funny, most of us seem to end up somewhere around 62% hydration with Caputo pizzeria.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 29, 2019, 04:48:57 AM
Hi Arne,
Beautiful pizzas as everything in this thread!
How much do your dough balls weigh and what is their rolled out size?

Thanks!

Hi Michiel,
Thanks for the nice comment.
My dough balls weigh 260 grams and I aim for about 30-31 cm in diameter.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Michiel on July 29, 2019, 06:07:29 AM
Hi Michiel,
Thanks for the nice comment.
My dough balls weigh 260 grams and I aim for about 30-31 cm in diameter.

TF of around 0,084. Thanks for the fast reply!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 29, 2019, 06:36:26 AM
A little while back I did an analysis of my 100 most recent doughs based on Caputo Pizzeria. One of the findings from that analysis was that the quantity temperature-time* seemed like a good indicator of dough quality**.

* Temperature-time is just the product of fermentation time and average fermentation temperature (time x temperature). I haphazardly chose a somewhat confusing unit name of "d°C" (to signify that time is in days and temperature is in degrees Celcius) and will stick with it for now. ;)

** See original post (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=52803.msg586456#msg586456) for the meaning of "dough quality".


Can controlling the total temperature-time my dough is subject to be used as a tool to help promote "Good" dough.

Example: If I want to do a long fermentation, will a higher fermentation temperature produce a weaker dough compared to a similar dough fermented for the same amount of time but at a lower temperature?

I expect this to be the case. Not only because of my data mentioned above, but also from my simplified understanding of theory: The enzymes that break down proteins into simpler sugars (which in turn feed the yeast) work faster at higher temperatures. It stands to reason, then, that for a given total fermentation time, higher temperatures would result faster degradation of the gluten matrix, which in turn weakens the dough.

If this is so, then how big a difference does it really make?

I'm no expert on theory, but I can sure put it to the test.

Setup
I decided to do a direct comparison by making three similar doughs (A, B and C), each fermented for the same amount of time but at different temperatures. The amount of leavening would be adjusted to make sure the total fermentation time of all batches would be the same.

As it happened, I somehow managed to incorporate a fly into dough B. It grossed me out and so it was scrapped, and I proceeded with only the two "extremes", A and C, as described below.

The doughs
For these doughs, I used 100% Caputo Biologica, 62% HR and 3% salt. Total fermentation time was set to 28 hours (19+9). Target volume after full rise: 1.7x.

Fermentation temperatures:

Craig's chart was used to find the amount of SD culture to use in each case.

Results
After the prescribed 28 hours, the doughs looked pretty spot on:

I made 6 pies from each batch, for a total of 12 pizzas. I alternated between them to reduce the effect of time passing.

Dough A, fermented at the cooler temperature, felt slightly stiff for my taste. I kept thinking it could do with a couple of more hours in balls.

Dough C, fermented at the warmer temperature, was noticeable weaker. I would not call it too slack/weak, but perhaps borderline. Anyway, it was certainly not as stiff as A.

This result is consistent with the hypothesis (and in spite of the fact that C had risen a little less than A, which would normally result in a slightly stiffer dough in my experience). It was also interesting to feel "first hand" the difference 6 degrees C can have on a dough.

While I experienced a marked difference during shaping, both doughs were usable, and the resulting pizzas were tasty. The consistency, texture and tenderness of the finished pies were comparable. If there was a difference, then at least it was far less pronounced than before cooking.


Random thoughts   
I had problems getting a nice browning on these. Not sure what could have caused that; perhaps it's a function of the flour (not my usual one). I don't really have an explanation.

The next time I do 48 hour RT ferments with Pizzeria, I will go as low in temperature as possible (within reason for RT ferments).

Actually, I will also avoid high hydration for very long fermentations going forward.


Edit: Added a few photos, though they can neither be felt nor tasted.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on July 29, 2019, 07:04:36 AM
Perhaps a tad more cornicione on A than C although hard to say from pictures.  All in all, still beautiful pizzas.  It looks like the match stick cut on the cheese yet some pieces lost the look and melded so beautifully into the sauce.  I cannot achieve that!  I find the balance of heat and time in the small pizza party oven with stock tiles is a challenge and I cannot achieve the proper cheese meld without burning the crust.  Far less scientific and more seat of my pants points me to around 22c at 18+6 for the best handling and management of the dough.  Often, in the summer, I will let the dough rest in my wine cooler in bulk at 16c for some part of the 18 hours and let the bulk rise stretch out to 20 hours.  Again, I go mostly by "feel".  Thus, your experimentation is extremely valuable to my knowledge base.  Thank you!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 29, 2019, 10:28:54 AM
"Seat of the pants" -- I like that expression.

Thanks for your comments, Scott. With the mozzarella available to me being rather wet in general, it is often a balancing act between "too matchsticky" and "too soupy". In these situations I only have my pants to rely on. :D

Oh, I forgot to mention that this was my first time doing 300 gram balls for 13" pies. I was a bit surprised by just how big a difference it made, compared to my usual 260 g / 12" ones. Just forming the crust was a very different experience, much harder to be honest. My hands are apparently not used to the larger surface area and did a poorer than usual job of creating an even skin. Also my turning peel all of a sudden seemed way too little. I managed to perforate a few of the pies as a result of all this novelty.

Oh boy, just one little inch and so much changes!

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on July 29, 2019, 11:21:01 AM
Arne, Thank You once again for the informative post. I immediately went to my pizza diary to look back, once again proving the world would be in great trouble if I were the recorder. I have set, for reasons that were once clearer, the time for my ferment to 24 hours, 18/6 and for the most part have kept to that schedule barring any disasters or very good wine as distractions. I believe it was chosen after many attempts between 48 and 24 hour doughs with bulk and ball times changing as the empirical analysis continued. In other words, I liked that combination the best of the many I tried and decided to keep that as a constant and vary the yeast and where possible the temperature, using the pluviometer as my guide to the process of fermentation. As I look back, there are of course holes in my data sets, wine stains on the diary pages but overall, when it works, it appears to look like this.


Bulk 17.5- 18.5 hours, ball 6-7 hours at temperatures of 21-23°C and pluviometer readings of 25-28 with the IDY adjusted for my perceived room temperature. Temperature adjustments during ferment, when necessary, are through moving the dough to different areas (no need to mention that this is not a commercial operation)
All the above suggests that in my case the variable, ok, one of them, in the “D°C” varies only by temperature and ranges between 21 and 23.


I too have ranged in hydration from 63-70 and seem to like the dough best when 64-66%, the handling is easier and there seems little difference to me, in the cornichone or the tenderness of the dough- other’s mileage may differ.
 As my two typing fingers are cramping, I will leave with Thanks for the post, fantastic looking Margheritas, need to work harder to catch up.


Cheers!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: hotsawce on July 29, 2019, 12:00:45 PM
What yeast percentage did you use for this?

I just made a dough at 61% HR, 3% salt and 0.01% IDY. Shorter bulk, longer ball, overall 24h at just above 24.5c. My doughballs were very sticky and very slack. Very weak.

I’m also thinking about going to a lower hydration for these long and warm room temperature ferments. Maybe 58% with a max of 60%.

I’m curious how you’re getting to 24+ hours without major issues. I’ve ended up with sticky dough when pushing the bulk longer, too.

In any event, even as a seasoned professional I’m learning quite a bit from your posts - so thank you for the contribution!

A little while back I did an analysis of my 100 most recent doughs based on Caputo Pizzeria. One of the findings from that analysis was that the quantity temperature-time* seemed like a good indicator of dough quality**.

* Temperature-time is just the product of fermentation time and average fermentation temperature (time x temperature). I haphazardly chose a somewhat confusing unit name of "d°C" (to signify that time is in days and temperature is in degrees Celcius) and will stick with it for now. ;)

** See original post (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=52803.msg586456#msg586456) for the meaning of "dough quality".


Can controlling the total temperature-time my dough is subject to be used as a tool to help promote "Good" dough.

Example: If I want to do a long fermentation, will a higher fermentation temperature produce a weaker dough compared to a similar dough fermented for the same amount of time but at a lower temperature?

I expect this to be the case. Not only because of my data mentioned above, but also from my simplified understanding of theory: The enzymes that break down proteins into simpler sugars (which in turn feed the yeast) work faster at higher temperatures. It stands to reason, then, that for a given total fermentation time, higher temperatures would result faster degradation of the gluten matrix, which in turn weakens the dough.

If this is so, then how big a difference does it really make?

I'm no expert on theory, but I can sure put it to the test.

Setup
I decided to do a direct comparison by making three similar doughs (A, B and C), each fermented for the same amount of time but at different temperatures. The amount of leavening would be adjusted to make sure the total fermentation time of all batches would be the same.

As it happened, I somehow managed to incorporate a fly into dough B. It grossed me out and so it was scrapped, and I proceeded with only the two "extremes", A and C, as described below.

The doughs
For these doughs, I used 100% Caputo Biologica, 62% HR and 3% salt. Total fermentation time was set to 28 hours (19+9). Target volume after full rise: 1.7x.

Fermentation temperatures:
  • Dough A was fermented at 18.5°C (resulting in a temperature-time load of 21.6 d°C)
  • Dough C was fermented at 24.5°C, which is 6°C warmer than A (temperature-time is 28.6 d°C).

Craig's chart was used to find the amount of SD culture to use in each case.

Results
After the prescribed 28 hours, the doughs looked pretty spot on:
  • Dough A had reached the targeted 1.7x rise.
  • Dough C had achieved a rise of 1.6x, slightly lower than my target.

I made 6 pies from each batch, for a total of 12 pizzas. I alternated between them to reduce the effect of time passing.

Dough A, fermented at the cooler temperature, felt slightly stiff for my taste. I kept thinking it could do with a couple of more hours in balls.

Dough C, fermented at the warmer temperature, was noticeable weaker. I would not call it too slack/weak, but perhaps borderline. Anyway, it was certainly not as stiff as A.

This result is consistent with the hypothesis (and in spite of the fact that C had risen a little less than A, which would normally result in a slightly stiffer dough in my experience). It was also interesting to feel "first hand" the difference 6 degrees C can have on a dough.

While I experienced a marked difference during shaping, both doughs were usable, and the resulting pizzas were tasty. The consistency, texture and tenderness of the finished pies were comparable. If there was a difference, then at least it was far less pronounced than before cooking.


Random thoughts   
I had problems getting a nice browning on these. Not sure what could have caused that; perhaps it's a function of the flour (not my usual one). I don't really have an explanation.

The next time I do 48 hour RT ferments with Pizzeria, I will go as low in temperature as possible (within reason for RT ferments).

Actually, I will also avoid high hydration for very long fermentations going forward.


Edit: Added a few photos, though they can neither be felt nor tasted.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 29, 2019, 01:24:12 PM
I immediately went to my pizza diary to look back, once again proving the world would be in great trouble if I were the recorder. (...)

Thanks for the vivid description, I can picture you flipping through your wine stained diary hunting down notes of past bakes.  :-D

I too have ranged in hydration from 63-70 and seem to like the dough best when 64-66%, the handling is easier and there seems little difference to me, in the cornichone or the tenderness of the dough- other’s mileage may differ.

Thanks for sharing, that is very interesting. I will continue my exploration in the lower to mid 60-s for sure!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 29, 2019, 01:37:37 PM
What yeast percentage did you use for this?

I just made a dough at 61% HR, 3% salt and 0.01% IDY. Shorter bulk, longer ball, overall 24h at just above 24.5c. My doughballs were very sticky and very slack. Very weak.

I’m also thinking about going to a lower hydration for these long and warm room temperature ferments. Maybe 58% with a max of 60%.

I’m curious how you’re getting to 24+ hours without major issues. I’ve ended up with sticky dough when pushing the bulk longer, too.

In any event, even as a seasoned professional I’m learning quite a bit from your posts - so thank you for the contribution!

I used sourdogh (Ischia culture):


I might add that my SD is at 100% hydration, and I've taken this fact into account when calculating the recipe. That is to say that any flour and water present in the starter is included in the total four and water calculation. Does not matter much for dough C, but with A at 6.8% it matters more.

The recipe you mention above sounds very reasonable I think, so I am as surprised as you are that it results in sticky slack dough. For a fixed fermentation time, the most powerful levers I've found to build strength are:

Not sure what else to say at this point, sorry.

Edit: Oh and adding a little calcium to the water if it is very soft seems to mitigate stickiness to a certain degree. I use gypsum (Calcium Sulphate) for this.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on July 29, 2019, 02:03:57 PM
Lovely looking pies as always, Arne!

And of course very thorough experiments. The time-temperature thing is something I've thought about, but never made an effort to look into. I was mainly wondering if there was a temperature where the dough fermented better than others, and you adjusted time and/or yeast amount to compensate in order to reach an ideal finished volume.

The differences are perhaps smaller than the other parameters that's involved in the making of the pies, where handling springs up as a potential element to disturb the observations. We should've had that dough-opening machine to make sure it was done the same way every time.

Regarding hydration, it's maybe not surprising that higher hydration didn't result in Nirvana Pies, when the reference pies (Naples) rarely, as far as I know, venture into those territories.

@hotsawce: Type of yeast and flour also matters. What flour do you use? As Arne mentioned, the water can also play a part. Do you have amy idea how far the balls were fermented? 1.5 increase, 2 times?

I also seem to remember that when I used IDY, I needed to shorten the time in balls, as they became too relaxed when I left them as long as with SD.

In general, it can be difficult to compare recipes and procedures, but especially when comparing SD vs IDY or CY. That said, me and many others have made doughs that behave nicely with IDY and CY, so it's certainly possible.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: DoouBall on July 29, 2019, 03:42:37 PM
I like this thread very much. Lots of good info here.

Yesterday, my friend cooked a dough in my oven which he made with Caputo Pizzeria, 63% hydration, 3% salt and 50 hours total (25 bulk 25 ball) at 72F. IDY quantity chosen based on Craig’s chart. The dough had a nice taste but was extremely wet and sticky and almost impossible to shape into a nice circle even with plenty of semola bench flour.

There’s something about the combo of high temp fermentation and high hydration (relative to flour choice) that causes Caputo Pizzeria doughs to “bleed” water and become sticky and hard to use. Flavor is fine but workability and cornicione puff suffer.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on July 29, 2019, 05:10:53 PM
I wouldn't judge that recipe based on a single attempt, especially not when it was in balls for that long. I wouldn't call 63% HR high either. It could just have been overfermented.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: DoouBall on July 29, 2019, 06:29:08 PM
I wouldn't judge that recipe based on a single attempt, especially not when it was in balls for that long. I wouldn't call 63% HR high either. It could just have been overfermented.

Heikjo, it wasn't overfermented. First off, time in balls is an integral part of the recipe - recipe includes every step on the way to making pizza, not just the mathematics of your dough formula. If you change the time in balls, you changed your recipe. Secondly, I am sharing my experience not just from one instance but from over 12 years of experience making pizza, most of it using Caputo Pizzeria.

A dough can feel wet just for sitting around for too long at room temperatures - the water gets released from the flour. If you think 63% Caputo isn't "high hydration" and that overfermentation is the only reason that 63% hydrated Caputo can feel wet, why don't you try an experiment - mix up a 63% hydrated Caputo dough with just a couple of grains of IDY and leave it at 75F for 3 days in bulk. Tell me that it doesn't feel wet and sticky at the end of that process, even though it probably won't rise almost at all. Better yet, try using sourdough instead of IDY - it'll be even worse.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on July 29, 2019, 08:30:04 PM
I like this thread very much. Lots of good info here.

Yesterday, my friend cooked a dough in my oven which he made with Caputo Pizzeria, 63% hydration, 3% salt and 50 hours total (25 bulk 25 ball) at 72F. IDY quantity chosen based on Craig’s chart. The dough had a nice taste but was extremely wet and sticky and almost impossible to shape into a nice circle even with plenty of semola bench flour.

There’s something about the combo of high temp fermentation and high hydration (relative to flour choice) that causes Caputo Pizzeria doughs to “bleed” water and become sticky and hard to use. Flavor is fine but workability and cornicione puff suffer.

DoouBall:  Check out Arne's charts, reply 461 in this thread.  The longer the time, the higher the temp, the higher the hydration, the worse the end product was Arne's conclusion tracking 100 doughs.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: DoouBall on July 29, 2019, 09:13:42 PM
DoouBall:  Check out Arne's charts, reply 461 in this thread.  The longer the time, the higher the temp, the higher the hydration, the worse the end product was Arne's conclusion tracking 100 doughs.

That’s exactly why I posted - to confirm that my experience matches Arne’s charts. Maybe I wasn’t clear about that.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on July 30, 2019, 08:41:53 AM
That’s exactly why I posted - to confirm that my experience matches Arne’s charts. Maybe I wasn’t clear about that.

Ahh, gotcha!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on July 30, 2019, 08:26:10 PM
I used sourdogh (Ischia culture):
  • In dough A I used 6.8%.
  • In dough C it was as close to .5% as I could manage (I find measuring out miniscule amounts of wet starter a bit challenging).




Arne:  How do you measure out .5% or 6.x% of starter?  I have a kitchen scale that measures in whole grams or the tiny scale for .00x grams of IDY.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 31, 2019, 02:09:12 AM
Arne:  How do you measure out .5% or 6.x% of starter?  I have a kitchen scale that measures in whole grams or the tiny scale for .00x grams of IDY.

For these starter measurements, I use a gram scale with 1 decimal precision (accuracy +/- 0.1g).

After preparing a baking bowl with all of the water to use and having mixed in the salt thoroughly, I measure out and incorporate the SD like this:


I'm not entirely happy with this procedure, in particular that last step. Getting all of the culture out of and off of the "measuring cup" is a bit cumbersome/awkward with the tools I use, and especially for small amounts of culture it feels extra important to get every decimal gram dissolved in the water.

Despite of this, I have not made any effort to improve on this procedure.  :-D   
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on July 31, 2019, 02:29:24 AM
I add the starter to a bowl with a part of the water used in the final dough, while it is sitting on a suitable scale. All operations are done with a rubber spatula.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 31, 2019, 02:33:12 AM
Aaaaa. Nice tip!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on July 31, 2019, 04:37:35 PM
Thanks Arne and Heikjo.  Looks like I will be purchasing my third scale.  My bride will be thrilled!  >:(
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 02, 2019, 12:13:29 PM
Another Biologica dough yesterday. The main idea was to try 13" pies again, to gain more experience with this size. Since I was not really looking to investigate the effect of any particular variable this time, I went nuts and changed a number of variables compared to my usual procedure. Most of the changes were intentional, but some were less so.

Having only Biologica at hand, that would be the flour. I decided on 60% hydration and aimed for a 3+21 hour ferment. I also decided to mix my dough differently than usual, adding all the flour at once instead of 2/3 + the remainder spooned in gradually during the first 5 minutes of mixing.

However, in all the excitement I absentmindedly refreshed the sourdough mere minutes before starting on the dough. Not good. Normally the culture feeds and grows for 9-11 hours before use, which probably meant I was now looking at a much lower yeast/bacteria density than usual. Not at all familiar with this situation, I decided to wing it and ended up using about twice the amount that I normally would.

The final recipe: 100% Caputo Biologica, 60% soft tap water, 3.0% salt and 2.0% "low density" SD. Ferment at 24.0°C for a total of 24 hours (3+21).
I made enough for 6 balls weighing 305 grams each.

Total mixing time was a mere 3 minutes at the lowest speed on my Kenwood with spiral attachment. That's less than half of what I usually do, yet the dough was every bit as developed as I'm used to. Seems like adding all the flour at once meant a shorter mixing was required? At any rate, I proceeded with my usual stretch and fold regimen, and the resulting dough was soft yet firm, very smooth and looking promising.

After 24 hours of fermentation at the target temperature, the dough had only risen about 50% (while I was aiming for 70%+). Giving it another couple of hours would be advisable, but not wanting to push the dinner further into the night, I decided to go ahead anyway.

The dough was actually beautiful to work with, but as expected the low rise came with some drawbacks. Most importantly, the cornicione suffered and was flatter and more dense than usual. I found comfort in the fact that the pies now had a hint of the "Da Michele" look: Large and flat. :-D

Again I notice that my turning peel is really a little too small for this pizza size. Doming the pizza is especially difficult as the floppy pie caves to gravity when lifted. I ended up with little or no doming this time because of this,

I also noticed a markedly more crisp outer crust than usual, despite bake times being around 50-55 seconds (and they were otherwise very soft and foldable). This got me curious. A year ago I might have attributed this to the low hydration level, but since I did not get the same for my 58% CP doughs earlier this summer, I am not entirely convinced that this was (purely) a hydration issue. Could it be the the changes in how I added the flour? And/or the somewhat under fermented dough?

This was a "nuclear family event" so I made personal pies, which I rarely do. We each got to choose a favorite topping combo, and then we ate them out of newly acquired plates purchased on vacation. It was a very nice evening. The two remaining balls were made into "focaccia" and somehow we found room for those, too.

Some photos attached.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on August 02, 2019, 12:56:35 PM
Looks like a good evening, and nice photos! Even if you changed a bunch of things and used a weak starter, the results are nothing to be ashamed of.

You may know this already, but you can change how you feed the starter to dictate when you want it to peak. Doesn't help all that much when you make the dough right after refreshing the starter, but it has helped me many times when I'm late or just don't have the time to wait 8-10 hours.

I primarily use inoculation or temperature to change it. If I need it ready sooner, I'll use a larger seed and/or put it somewhere warmer. If my typical feed is 5:20:20, I can feed it 10:20:20, 15:20:20, 20:20:20 etc.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on August 02, 2019, 01:22:19 PM
Maybe the reduced amounts (due to the young starter) of acids, LABs, and wild yeast caused less deterioration of the gluten?

BTW: Very decent looking pizza!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 02, 2019, 04:29:05 PM
Looks like a good evening, and nice photos! Even if you changed a bunch of things and used a weak starter, the results are nothing to be ashamed of.

You may know this already, but you can change how you feed the starter to dictate when you want it to peak. Doesn't help all that much when you make the dough right after refreshing the starter, but it has helped me many times when I'm late or just don't have the time to wait 8-10 hours.

I primarily use inoculation or temperature to change it. If I need it ready sooner, I'll use a larger seed and/or put it somewhere warmer. If my typical feed is 5:20:20, I can feed it 10:20:20, 15:20:20, 20:20:20 etc.

Thanks for the insight. Not sure how to interpret the notation x:y:z. Could you explain? :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 02, 2019, 04:30:52 PM
Maybe the reduced amounts (due to the young starter) of acids, LABs, and wild yeast caused less deterioration of the gluten?

As a possible explanation for the crisp in the crust you mean?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on August 02, 2019, 05:00:13 PM
Thanks for the insight. Not sure how to interpret the notation x:y:z. Could you explain? :)
Seed:Water:Flour, all in grams. It can be multiplied up, so 1:2:2 would be the same ratio-wise as 10:20:20, or 100:200:200. The three would peak at around the same time.

5:20:20 means I keep 5g of the old starter and feed it 20g water and 20g flour (for a 100% hydration starter). If I do 10:20:20 instead, more of the starter is kept and it will rise faster after the feeding.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on August 02, 2019, 05:11:47 PM
As a possible explanation for the crisp in the crust you mean?

Yes.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 03, 2019, 05:47:50 AM
Seed:Water:Flour, all in grams. It can be multiplied up, so 1:2:2 would be the same ratio-wise as 10:20:20, or 100:200:200. The three would peak at around the same time.

5:20:20 means I keep 5g of the old starter and feed it 20g water and 20g flour (for a 100% hydration starter). If I do 10:20:20 instead, more of the starter is kept and it will rise faster after the feeding.

Got it. So my usual practice of keeping 100 grams of starter and feeding it with 100 grams of flour and 100 grams of water would be more simply expressed as 100:100:100 then? Nice.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 03, 2019, 05:53:02 AM
Maybe the reduced amounts (due to the young starter) of acids, LABs, and wild yeast caused less deterioration of the gluten?

Interesting thought. I have no clue, but if that were the case: Would it also mean that, AOTBE, a baker's yeast based crust would be slightly crisper than a sourdough based one? (since acids, LABs and wild yeast would be completely absent in former).
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on August 03, 2019, 07:22:40 AM
I don't know, it was just a thought. :D

IIRC, beer yeast fermentation produces CO2 and organic acids as metabolic byproducts, so there will be acids in the dough though of different levels and composition.

Apart from my lack of in depth understanding of yest fermentation I would call a dough a chaotic system.  It's just too complex to predict how it acts in detail and we need a lot of experimentation to know what will happen if we change something.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: HansB on August 03, 2019, 07:27:48 AM
...would be more simply expressed as 100:100:100 then? Nice.

Or 1:1:1
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 10, 2019, 10:30:02 AM
When Greg (Icelandr) and I did our long distance bake (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=58353.0), I was surprised to discover just how differently we mixed and kneaded our doughs. I've been wondering since what the difference would be if we could do a side-by-side comparison. With family coming over for pizza, I though an experiment was in order.

I set out to make two doughs. The first one I'd name after Greg and try to emulate the mixing and kneading that I saw him do. The second one would be my regular "Arne" process.

The recipe: Caputo Biologica, 62% tap water (soft/untreated), 2.9% salt, 1% SD.
Fermentation: 25-26 hours at 23-24°C
Batch size: 8 balls x 2

I made "Greg" first, and I think I got all the steps right. Water first, then water/salt/SD combined and added to the flour. I had the Kenwood on lowest speed for 4-5 minutes. At that point the dough had come together and did not stick to the sides of the bowl. I transferred it to the kitchen counter (without using any bench flour), kneaded it manually for a minute or two, did 7-8 "aggressive stretch and folds" and let it rest for 15 minutes. Two more series of such stretch and folds later, it went to bulk: a pretty firm ball of dough that had a nice skin and was soft to the touch. I liked the feel of it a lot.

The "Arne" dough was made as per my normal routine: Mix water with salt and SD, add 2/3 of the flour, start mixing on lowest setting and add the remaining flour during the next 5 minutes. Next, increase speed slightly and let it go untill it looks ready, about 5 more minutes. After that, two series of stretch and folds, but limited to only 3-4 each time, and using a light touch.

Compared to "Greg", "Arne" was less firm. Perhaps not as "well developed". Softer, weaker. Not sure what words to use. However, it too had developed a skin and felt dry to the touch. The difference was "firm vs fragile", it did not resist pushing as much, if that makes sense.

The difference was pretty pronounced, and I was curious to see what fermentation would do to them.

From here on out, the doughs were treated identically.

After 13 hours in bulk, I balled the doughs. The difference in firmness remained, though perhaps to a slightly lesser degree.

12.5 hours later, I started making pizza. The pluviometer showed 27 mm, which means an 80% rise, just what I was aiming for. Looking at the dough balls at this point I could see that "Greg" had held it's shape a little better than "Arne", which makes sense given that "Arne" had less strength. I've included a photo below.

For each pizza that I made, I alternated between "Greg" and "Arne" to see if I could sense a difference when forming discs. If there was a difference there, it was slight. For all practical purposes, they felt identical to my hands. They felt great.

I used my IR thermometer to measure the floor and dome temperatures each time a new pie was launched. My notes show a floor temperature of between 401°C-456°C and a dome temperature of between 481°C and 502°C. Bake times were between 45 and 60 seconds.

Sadly, I don't have a lot of quality information to report in terms of differences in the finished pies. I did have the presence of mind to snap photos and note down oven temperatures and bake times, but I did not really get to taste the pizzas side by side. We were merely 12 people in all, but it was lively enough that I ended up "working the oven" to a much larger degreen than I was "evaluating and collecting data".

Quizzing my wife in retrospect, she was able to tell me that some of the pies seemed a bit denser than usual. She mentioned the first Scarpetta pie and the second mushroom pies in particular. Funny thing is, they were made with different doughs. Perhaps it is my handling more than the dough she felt. It could be a number of things, and the result is inconclusive I guess.

I created a collage of all the pies in an attempt to discover any visual discrepancies, but there does not seem to be any obvious pattern. I've included the collage below: They were made in the sequence in which they are presented, starting in the upper left corner. Leftmost column shows pizzas made with "Greg", and rightmost column shows the "Arne" pies.

In addition, we made 4 "starter pies", my AnaNascosta variation. It was a huge success, even one of my brothers who is a self proclamed "pineapple enemy" admitted defeat and had a slice. :-)


Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on August 10, 2019, 11:34:10 AM
Thank you Arne! My first flash of insight is to make the dough, send it to you for shaping topping and baking and I will have beautiful pizzas! Thank you for the side by side, I appreciate it. It was amazing to me as well as we exchanged info in our long distance bake at how differently we make our dough. Armed here with an internet connection and a desire to make pizza you are not really sure if you are doing it “right”, the results seem to be fine here but always there is the question - is this what it is supposed to look and feel like? In your hands it seemed to make great pizza so I will continue on studying more and trying to improve techniques and gasp, even some chemistry perhaps! I need to make more pizza!
Great photos and pizza, looks like fun. Thank you!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on August 10, 2019, 12:32:35 PM
IMO it's hard to know and to be objective.. :)

I have the advantage that I've eaten Neapolitan pizza prepared the right way.  One that has never had the pleasure will probably always wonder am I doing it right..  I guess the only way to really know is to find a way to eat real Neapolitan.  Maybe a week trip to Naples would be a good idea. :D

Still IMO what really counts is making one's own pizza and making the best one can.  After all it's all about personal taste and less about following a certain recipe/method.  It's the taste that really matters and not if it's a certain style or not, how good it looks on photo, etc.

I'm sure you've all seen this before, but I find that one can really visually see the softness of the finished pizza.  For me that softness and the absence of chewiness is what characterizes a perfect Neapolitan. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vV4gegZ7JNU

There was another video that I wanted to link regarding judging a Neapolitan, but I can't find it again.  It showed the softness and airiness of the cornicione, the softness of the entire pizza, the mako, and a perfectly cooked bottom.

But still it's all a question about taste, what tastes good is good :)  In this house we very often like a 2 minutes pizza, maybe heresy and also maybe due to limitations of my skills and the oven, and not to forget the opinions of my fiancee.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on August 10, 2019, 12:40:45 PM
I found the other video, unfortunately it's only in Italian, but it also shows the softness very well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1udElikP6o

Edit: Hehe, it actually doesn't show a very airy cornicione at all :)  He explains that it should be between 1-2 cm thick, be soft and when you press a finger into it it should return on it's own.  It shouldn't be crude, and it should have a slight yeasty smell and smell like newly baked bread.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on August 10, 2019, 06:31:02 PM
Arne:  You and your family/friends have great fun in the summer months.  Love the excitement!  The pizzas look outstanding.  In viewing the videos and studying Greg's comments, I think my pizzas qualify except the bottoms are a bit more dark.  The softness is certainly there.  I don't have the opening skills you and Greg possess by a long measure.  More pizza rustica to follow!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on August 11, 2019, 07:09:09 AM
Have you considered quitting your day job and opening a pizzeria? Looks like a perfect evening, and I understand it's not too easy to keep track of the experiments in such circumstances.

I need to get back to Naples and conduct a more thorough investigation of the pies there (ie. eating lots of pizza).

The Italian John Cleese in amolapizza's video can be auto-translated in the captions on Youtube. Not a perfect translation, but you get some context.

When I started making proper pizza at home, I was very focused on a puffy cornicione and worked on increasing HR to achieve it. These days I don't look for that much air in it. Consistency and taste is more important than volume. Since I make SD pizzas, I also get less volume than I would with commercial yeast. And that's perfectly fine, because the flavour more than makes up for it. I can still get a decent oven spring and it mostly comes down to the fermentation container, dough logistics and opening technique.

My SD goals were always inspired by Craig's SD pies, and he doesn't get a very large cornicione. At least not compared to many others using commercial yeast.

I've seen the first video before, but I now noticed his comment about leoparding, or as they call it: measles pizza.

[On dough taken straight from the fridge]:
Quote
We'll have a chemical reaction inside: pizza will rise, but then it will show a series of black dots that in the Neapolitan technique in the pizza chef's jargon is defined as: measles pizza.

This is the main flaw of a pizza taken by the fridge and directly put in the oven. These bubbles make you notice a measles pizza. This is a reaction from starches in the temperature variation.

Funny how he call it a measles pizza and a flaw, while so many on this forum chase the leoparding. It looks good, but it hurts the taste. Which is a bit ironic since we are trying to make good pizza because it taste so good.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: schold on August 11, 2019, 03:40:00 PM
I don't think it is true that so many on this forum chase leoparding. Granted, most have been through that phase, but few settle on it as an important characteristic for taste as well as their expression in pizza style.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 12, 2019, 01:47:38 AM
Mechanical leavening

In Ezno Coccia's video "Napolitan pizza dough according to Enzo Cuccia" (see below), after mixing and kneading his dough, he cuts it in half to reveal the inside. As shown in the frame grab attached, it is full of air bubbles of varying sizes.

Inspired by this and my recent comparison of two different dough mixing/kneading methods, I decided to make three different doughs, cut them open and have a look inside.

Dough 1: Mixed and kneaded according the "Arne" way in my Kenwood.
Dough 2: Mixed and kneaded according the "Greg" way in my Kenwood.
Dough 3: Mixed and kneaded by hand.

The recipe: 100% Caputo Biologica, 62% water, 2.9% salt. Batch size: 3 balls x 3. I was not going to make pizza from these, sadly, so I did not use any yeast.

When the doughs were considered "ready for bulk", I shot a short video clip to document the consistency of the dough. Then I slit them open and snapped a photo of the inside. The results are attached and linked below.

My observations:


The hand made dough was my first attempt ever, and it sure looks like more practice is in order. Total mix/knead time was 15 minutes. After looking at a few YouTube videos, it looks like I should have doubled that time. Also, I need to work on the technique if I'm ever going to bake hand made dough. :-D


Videos

Neapolitan pizza dough according to Enzo Coccia:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBngGRjk4_E

Consistency of dough ball 1
https://youtu.be/uDtM56wrdkg

Consistency of dough ball 2
https://youtu.be/9LG-zNEdVr0

Consistency of douhg ball 3
https://youtu.be/tinKjS00Rvs


Photos
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on August 12, 2019, 02:13:02 AM
Kneading is a topic I don't think I'll ever get. How long, how much, mechanical or not. For my 24-48 hour doughs, there's hardly any kneading at all. It's a mix, rest, 4-5 S&F, repeat 2-3 times and done.

I also wonder how much air incorporated into the dough matters compared to the gas that appear during fermentation.

I don't think it is true that so many on this forum chase leoparding. Granted, most have been through that phase, but few settle on it as an important characteristic for taste as well as their expression in pizza style.
"Many" can be interpreted in different ways. I don't think it's true for a lot of the regulars, which is the ones you can follow over time, but I have seen many posts either mentioning that they want more leoparding or congratulating someone on their leoparding. Possibly more frequent from visitors that stay a little while or don't come here very often.

I don't think I've seen taste mentioned a lot in the discussion about leoparding, at least not when it's discussed in a positive way. Which is what is so weird about it. It's something done to get a certain look on the pizzas, but it doesn't make it taste better.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 12, 2019, 02:25:26 AM
Kneading is a topic I don't think I'll ever get. How long, how much, mechanical or not. For my 24-48 hour doughs, there's hardly any kneading at all. It's a mix, rest, 4-5 S&F, repeat 2-3 times and done.

Sounds a lot like how I typically do it ("Dough 1" above).


I also wonder how much air incorporated into the dough matters compared to the gas that appear during fermentation.

I am very curious about this myself. I believe mechanical leavening to be important, and I think it is tightly connected with dough strength too by the way. But I confess it's a belief, not knowledge, based mostly on what I read and hear.

But there is also some experiences with a few doughs I've made in the past that have "certain properties". I don't quite know how to put into words, but good properties, and I surmise these might be related to an especially good dough development (albeit accidentally so).

I'll continue down this rabbit hole for a little while I think.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on August 12, 2019, 03:32:41 AM
Sounds a lot like how I typically do it ("Dough 1" above).
Yeah, except I don't use a machine on it. All by hand and in total very little mechanical working of the dough. The Kenwood we got isn't much help for kneading, especially for smaller batches. It's too weak for that kind of work and I expect it would fall apart if I used it every week for doughs.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on August 12, 2019, 10:23:39 AM
Thank you Arne for your curiosity and your organized approach. I “know” when I am making my dough when I am successfully entrapping air when bubbles show up or are, I guess, “popped” as I continue. I have cut the dough to satisfy curiosity but have never gone beyond that. While I try to entrap air, I often feel that it may well be futile for the next 12-18 hours the yeast will take over and if all is well there will be far more “air” in the dough than I could possibly entrap. That said, I have to admit to modifying my kneading to try to get more air thinking it would be a benefit. I think perhaps the development of the ball and it’s shaping and consistency as a container for the fermentation is perhaps more important than my attempts to entrap air with incantations and thumbprints.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 12, 2019, 10:38:37 AM
I too feel it is important to develop the skin, and the gluten matrix, at least sufficiently to make sure as much air and CO2 remains in the dough as possible. Too much is too much, but too little is probably too little as well.

Finding the balance is what I want.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on August 12, 2019, 11:04:57 AM
I am making some dough on Tuesday for Wednesday, perhaps I will cut the dough before bulk to see how old scissorhands is doing.
Title: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: DoouBall on August 12, 2019, 11:08:13 AM
Thank you Arne for your curiosity and your organized approach. I “know” when I am making my dough when I am successfully entrapping air when bubbles show up or are, I guess, “popped” as I continue. I have cut the dough to satisfy curiosity but have never gone beyond that. While I try to entrap air, I often feel that it may well be futile for the next 12-18 hours the yeast will take over and if all is well there will be far more “air” in the dough than I could possibly entrap. That said, I have to admit to modifying my kneading to try to get more air thinking it would be a benefit. I think perhaps the development of the ball and it’s shaping and consistency as a container for the fermentation is perhaps more important than my attempts to entrap air with incantations and thumbprints.

This is an interesting discussion.

To chime in, my understanding is that one of the reasons for the initial introduction of air during mixing is to provide an environment that is highly beneficial to yeast growth - the yeasts get started better in a highly oxygenated dough. Eventually the yeasts will take over and produce more air. They will do it better if the mix introduced sufficient air to begin with.

There are various studies such as this about the benefit of a highly oxygenated environment on yeast growth:

https://aem.asm.org/content/69/1/113
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on August 12, 2019, 12:01:17 PM
This is an interesting discussion.

To chime in, my understanding is that one of the reasons for the initial introduction of air during mixing is to provide an environment that is highly beneficial to yeast growth - the yeasts get started better in a highly oxygenated dough. Eventually the yeasts will take over and produce more air. They will do it better if the mix introduced sufficient air to begin with.

There are various studies such as this about the benefit of a highly oxygenated environment on yeast growth:

https://aem.asm.org/content/69/1/113
I wasn't aware air had a mission in the dough that related to the fermentation. Very interesting. Thanks for the link.

I quickly found a post my Omid where he talks about incorporating air and even use a fan to blow more air into the dough while mixing: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14506.msg152572#msg152572

The air factor means there is another effect to kneading the dough, which can even affect the rate of fermentation. This begs for some investigation.

A quote from Tom:

Quote
While the yeast does generate gas during the very early stages of oven spring it is not sufficient to be considered a significant contributor to oven spring. Existing gas, air incorporated into the dough during mixing and water vapor are the main contributors.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=48256.msg484278#msg484278
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on August 12, 2019, 12:19:50 PM
I believe that later in Omid’s thread he agreed that use of the fan was of no real value, silly came to my mind, I have great respect for Omid but not for that suggestion.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 12, 2019, 01:00:41 PM
This is an interesting discussion.

To chime in, my understanding is that one of the reasons for the initial introduction of air during mixing is to provide an environment that is highly beneficial to yeast growth - the yeasts get started better in a highly oxygenated dough. Eventually the yeasts will take over and produce more air. They will do it better if the mix introduced sufficient air to begin with.

There are various studies such as this about the benefit of a highly oxygenated environment on yeast growth:

https://aem.asm.org/content/69/1/113
Interesting indeed. Thanks for the information!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on August 12, 2019, 02:26:56 PM
I believe that later in Omid’s thread he agreed that use of the fan was of no real value, silly came to my mind, I have great respect for Omid but not for that suggestion.
Hehe, yeah, I didn't continue reading, but I didn't assume it was meant to be something for the long run, but rather a fun way to test out some differences in the dough.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: schold on August 12, 2019, 04:26:42 PM
Increasing oxygenation should also increase oxidation, which I wouldn't think is such a good thing. One of several differences between bread and pizza dough, is the fact that the latter needs to able to contain and hold gas during the highly vigorous shaping process (that is, when compared to bread dough). Given the molecular masses of the three main gasses involved, the one with the bad rap should be the least prone to effusion (Graham's law) - but then again, CO2 will probably displace air during fermentation anyway.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: DoouBall on August 13, 2019, 12:02:43 AM
Increasing oxygenation should also increase oxidation, which I wouldn't think is such a good thing. One of several differences between bread and pizza dough, is the fact that the latter needs to able to contain and hold gas during the highly vigorous shaping process (that is, when compared to bread dough). Given the molecular masses of the three main gasses involved, the one with the bad rap should be the least prone to effusion (Graham's law) - but then again, CO2 will probably displace air during fermentation anyway.

My understanding of the process is that initially, the oxygen gets the yeast going (aerobic respiration), and then eventually, the yeasts fully consume the oxygen and the gas is replaced with carbon dioxide. At that point, fermentation kicks into anaerobic mode, and lactic acid/ethanol are produced in addition to the CO2. If you time your bake right, you'll be at the sweet spot of flavor before excessive ethanol is produced giving off flavors to the dough.

As with all things in pizza, there can be too much of a good thing. I agree that you don't want to over-oxygenate the dough as this will hurt flavor, so there is a sweet spot where the oxygen gives the yeast going, but isn't excessive to the point of hurting flavor. I've done a bit more research to find a good explanation of aerobic (oxygen present) and anaerobic (no oxygen) respiration in yeast, and this is probably the simplest explanation I found:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zm6rd2p/revision/2

The big takeaway for me was that 19 times more energy is generated in aerobic respiration than in anaerobic. This helps explain why kneading your dough in a way that oxygenates it helps to kick start the fermentation process much faster than the quick mix and leave it alone approach. Not saying that one way is necessarily better - both the traditional knead and the no knead/little knead have their place depending on the pizzaiolo's goals and baking timelines.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Pete-zza on August 13, 2019, 09:56:03 AM
Alex,

One of my favorite places when I want to get down in the weeds to learn more about the role of ingredients in a dough, including yeast, I go to the Yeast Treatise and related materials at:

http://www.theartisan.net/yeast_treatise_frameset.htm

The discussion at theartisan.net is with respect to bread dough but most of the basic principles apply to other doughs also.

Peter
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: DoouBall on August 13, 2019, 01:19:37 PM
Great link, thanks for sharing, Peter! A quote from the treatise:

"If the carbon dioxide does not form its own gas bubbles how then does expansion of the dough through gas retention occur? Two other gases are available in significant quantities within the dough as a result of mixing. These are oxygen and nitrogen, both of which are derived from any quantities of air trapped within the dough matrix as it forms. In the case of oxygen, its residence time in the dough is relatively short since it is quickly used up by the yeast cells within the dough Indeed so successful is yeast at scavenging oxygen that in some breadmaking processes no oxygen remains in the dough by the end of the mixing cycle. Thus, the bread fermentation process is referred to as an anaerobic, alcoholic fermentation brought about by fermenting agents present in the dough, The rapid loss of oxygen from mechanically developed doughs has been illustrated previously for a wide range of nitrogen to oxygen ratios

With the removal of oxygen from the dough, the only gas that remains entrapped is nitrogen. Nitrogen plays a major role by providing bubble nuclei into which the carbon dioxide gas can diffuse as the latter comes out of solution. The number and sizes of gas bubbles available in the dough at the end of mixing will be strongly influenced by the mechanism of dough formation and the mixing conditions in a particular machine. The effects of mixer design are very important, but this is not within the scope of this presentation. At this stage it is only necessary to register the significant role that mixing will play in the creation, and/or manipulation of dough bubble structures."
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Pete-zza on August 13, 2019, 01:53:37 PM
Alex,

Another one of my favorite websites that covers about everything relating to dough is this one:

http://www.classofoods.com/ukindex.html

There is also a Dutch version.

Peter

EDIT (8/30/20): For a Wayback Machine replacement for the inoperative classofoods.com link, see https://www.classofoods.com/en-gb (see section What is bread made from?)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: DoouBall on August 13, 2019, 02:31:28 PM
Another great link, thanks Peter. And another relevant quote from this one:

"For the oxidation reaction oxygen is needed. This oxygen is partially coming form the air which is beaten into the dough, but can also be provided by oxidising agents such as ascorbic acid or calcium peroxide. Ascorbic acid however is not an oxidising agent and will first be transformed into dehydro-ascorbic acid.

The function of the oxidising agents is to oxidise the sulfhydryl groups to disulfide bonds and strengthen the dough. The result is a tightly cross linked protein structure which, following leaving, maintains a volume many times the original."
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on August 13, 2019, 04:24:30 PM
That what I was thinking . . . .

Yikes
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on August 13, 2019, 08:44:12 PM
That what I was thinking . . . .

Yikes

Greg:   ^^^  Who knew?  And we thought it was just flour, water, salt and yeast.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on August 13, 2019, 11:42:31 PM
I will try this again having lost the post the first time . . . .


 Arne, I am making some dough for tomorrow night bake and decided to do a cut into the dough after my making the rough ball and then kneading and stretch and folding it as you did in one of your previous posts. The dough is the same, 62%, 2.9% salt, .018% IDY, the knuckles are the same so this is Greg’s dough (tonight’s version)


Picture 1 the dough as it came out of the Kitchen Aid
Picture 2 after I deemed it ready for bulk - s&f 15 minute rest, s&f 12 minute rest, s&f 10 minute rest, s&f shape to ball to bulk


Here is the video of the ball
https://youtu.be/EZuS3ahBHs8 (https://youtu.be/EZuS3ahBHs8)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 14, 2019, 08:44:22 AM
Thanks for sharing, Greg. Old scissorhands cut the dough clean through!

I also liked that you posted a video. There's something to the consistency you have there that intrigues me. Almost looks like modelling clay or something. I saw it before, too.
Even when I tried to emulate your process I did not get the look and feel that it seems like you have over there.

We should all get together on "neutral ground" some day and make pizza.  :-D

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 15, 2019, 01:14:56 PM
Weak vs Strong

As I'm working my way through 25 kilos of Caputo Biologica, a relatively weak flour compared to my old pal Caputo Pizzeria*, out of the blue I suddenly discover 1 kg bags of Caputo Cuoco in a local grocery store. That red bag of strong flour that I've read so much about but never actually tried. A comparison has to be made!

* According to the Caputo website, the three flours mentioned have the following specs:
Biologica (tipo 0): 12% protein, W250/270
Pizzeria (tipo 00): 12.5% protein, W260/270
Cuoco (tipo 00): 13% protein, W300/320


I made two doughs with exactly the same ratio of ingredients with the goal of treating them as identically as possible with respect to mixing procedure, timing and temperatures. The only difference: the type of flour used.

Ingredients:

Fermentation:
21 hours (9+12) at 22-23°C

Making the dough
These two flours are clearly very different, that was apparent from the get go. When the Biologica batch (A) was dumped on the counter after mixing in the Kenwood, it was very wet and runny, and it took a considerable time and effort to work it into a coherent dough. The Cuoco batch (B) on the other hand was rather firm and almost ready to go straight from the mixer. This was after receiving the exact same treatment up to this point. I felt I had to work the A dough enough to give it a fighting chance, so it did get a fair amount of hand kneading and folding compared to B. When they went to bulk, they looked fairly similar, but the B was still significantly firmer to the touch.

After bulk, the difference was actually almost as apparent. The dough based on Biologica (A) had firmed up quite a bit, but so had the Cuoco one (B). Making balls from both doughs was easy and did not really require any bench flour at all. Photos below.

The bake
I left for work after balling, and when I got back I was met by a pluviometer that had already passed my sweet spot of ~1.7x rise. No guests today, so I dropped everything and fired up the oven immediately.

When I started cooking, the doughs had been in balls for 10 hours (two less than planned for) and the pluviometers both showed 36, i.e. about a 2.4x rise.

It was really easy to spot which dough was which just by looking at them. The Biologica batch was much flatter and more relaxed than the Cuoco batch. I've included photos of this below. The difference just got more evident when I started extracting individual balls. In fact, dough A was so weak that I was not able to form a coherent disc after three attempts. At that point, even though I had three more waiting, I decided to move straight to dough B and see how that compared.

It was a huge difference: The B dough handled really well and seemed to be in almost perfect condition. One could almost say that the 64% Cuoco dough at 2.4x rise behaved similarly to my typical 64% Pizzeria dough at 1.8x rise. Amazing!

I made pizza from all the 6 Cuoco balls, and it went well. My only complaint is that too much bench flour remained on the crust, and that I was not vigilent about popping big empty air bubbles. Need to improve my skills there. But the pizzas were good, and we enjoyed both the taste and the texture.

In the end I decided to make one more attempt on the Biologica batch. Letting gravity do most of the work, I was able to cook a Margherita. It was delicious too, and I think comparable to the other ones.

I've included some pizza shots below, including the making of a previously untested variety: Spring onion, mozzarella, "knife-point" beef and lemon zest. The oven temperature was right around 480°C the whole time, and cooking times were around 60 seconds.

Random thoughs
After years of using only Caputo Pizzeria, I am really glad I've started trying other flours too. It is not only fun, but also very instructive. I've learned a lot from the experience already.

There has been quite a bit of discussion about pluviometer use ("spia di lievitazione") recently, and one of the points that the Dough Doctor brought up, about different flours giving different results, was clearly demonstrated to me today. I still think the pluviometer method is very useful, and I will continue to use it for what it is worth, but I've also experienced first hand that the type of flour (at least) should be taken into account when interpreting the rise in the cylinder.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: DoouBall on August 15, 2019, 01:22:47 PM
Pizzas look fantastic, Arne! It's fun to play with new flours. Cheers,

Alex
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: schold on August 15, 2019, 02:59:10 PM
I think the fermentation (as seen in the cross section of the cornicione) on the spring onion pie looks spot on.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on August 15, 2019, 03:20:18 PM
Great pizzas and an interesting post! I've wondered how the Cuoco worked compared to Pizzeria for 24+48h doughs. There's one thing looking at numbers, but nothing beats hands-on experience. Did you have a pluviometer for each type of flour?

I agree that you always have to experiment to find what works best. I think the pluviometer gives a good starting point and once you've found a good point for your ingredients and method, it's a great way to achieve consistent results, even in changing conditions. You also have an indication of when you want to start baking.

Where did you find the Cuco? I think I've seen it in a Meny, but never tried it. Have you tried and compared pizzeria to a Caputo Classic?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on August 15, 2019, 04:48:08 PM
Thanks Arne, another post where I learned some more! I didn’t think we were still linked in our bakes though, both with skyrocketing Pluviometers, sounds like a disease or a punk rock group!
My over fermented dough could be made round, but launching caused all manner of language, quietly so as to not shock the guests!

What is “knife point beef”? The pizza looks great and something to try - best served on round dough?
All the best!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 16, 2019, 01:29:16 AM
Pizzas look fantastic, Arne! It's fun to play with new flours. Cheers,

Thank you Alex. Lots of fun and amazing to see just how big a difference the flour can make.


I think the fermentation (as seen in the cross section of the cornicione) on the spring onion pie looks spot on.

Thanks for the comment, that one was from the Cuoco batch. And it did feel really good too, despite the 2.4x rise.
I wouldn't say the same for the Biologica batch though. :-D


Great pizzas and an interesting post! I've wondered how the Cuoco worked compared to Pizzeria for 24+48h doughs. There's one thing looking at numbers, but nothing beats hands-on experience. Did you have a pluviometer for each type of flour?

Thanks, yes I used two separate pluviometers to track each dough. They both showed 36 mm at bake actually, so the rise was identical for these doughs.


Where did you find the Cuco? I think I've seen it in a Meny, but never tried it. Have you tried and compared pizzeria to a Caputo Classic?

I found it at Meny CC Vest. I love that store, or their selection at least. That's one of the few places I know of where I can always find chipotle in adobo sauce, for example.
Regarding Caputo Classic, I have never tried it but I think I saw that there too.

Thanks Arne, another post where I learned some more! I didn’t think we were still linked in our bakes though, both with skyrocketing Pluviometers, sounds like a disease or a punk rock group!
My over fermented dough could be made round, but launching caused all manner of language, quietly so as to not shock the guests!

:-D :-D :-D


What is “knife point beef”? The pizza looks great and something to try - best served on round dough?

"Knife point beef" was my attempt at translating "in punta di coltello", i.e. cut in small pieces by hand, or "hand minced" if you will.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Michiel on August 16, 2019, 03:42:03 AM
Haha, these pictures gave me a laugh! :D

Maybe you already explained, but what exactly is the procedure to use these pluviometers?
You weight off a specific amount of dough and put it into the pluviometer and follow it up?
I feel a need to try this too, since I have trouble understanding when the dough is ready to bake..

PS: Great looking pizzas! :chef:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on August 16, 2019, 09:07:11 AM
Arne my admiration just grew leaps and bounds . . . . .many can do science, very few can take and old guys odd turn of phrase and turn it into “reality” soon to be internationally famous T Shirts?
Wonderful!


Edit an hour later . . . . Damn that was cleverly done!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on August 16, 2019, 05:30:45 PM
 :-D :-D :-D :-D Elvis better leave the building!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 17, 2019, 03:12:58 AM
Maybe you already explained, but what exactly is the procedure to use these pluviometers?
You weight off a specific amount of dough and put it into the pluviometer and follow it up?
I feel a need to try this too, since I have trouble understanding when the dough is ready to bake..

Yes, that's correct. The general procedure is:

1. When the dough is ready for bulk, snip off X grams of dough, ball it up and place it in a graduated cylinder. This is your spy. Now note down the height (or if the container is not graduated, place a rubber band around it to mark the spot). The value for X is arbitrary, but you have to use the same value each time in order to track and compare your own results. The main point is that the initial height is the same each time you do this, so you always have the same starting value V0. Several forum members use a pluviometer/rain gauge and 80 grams of dough, like Besmir and Ville suggest in their book "Pizza Napoletana", which results in an initial value of about 15 or 16. That's convenient for easy communication but not necessary. You can use any weight you want that fits your container.

2. Wherever the dough goes, the cylinder follows. Make sure the spy is exposed to the exact same conditions as the main dough.

3. Spy and adjust. You can now visit the spy and read off current values and compare with the initial value. With time, this allows you to get a good sense of whether the dough is too slow, too fast or just right and act accordingly.

4. Note the final rise value, V. When you're ready to bake, note down the actual final rise value V. If you divide this by the initial value V0 you have your rise factor. For example, I look for something in the neighborhood of V=27. Given an initial value of 15.5, the rise factor is 27/15.5 = 1.7x.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 17, 2019, 03:16:10 AM
Arne my admiration just grew leaps and bounds . . . . .many can do science, very few can take and old guys odd turn of phrase and turn it into “reality” soon to be internationally famous T Shirts?
Wonderful!

:-D I laughed so hard when I read your post about the "disease or punk rock band", it was impossible to resist. I'll give that T-shirt some thought... :-D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: schold on August 17, 2019, 07:53:48 AM
In addion to following the fermentation process with dough in a graduated cylinder, they also use a so-called spread test (see picture below where they employ common kitchen cookware, I guess for the sake of the beginner). The idea is to measure the diameter of a dough ball (which doesn't have any "side support") in order to obtain insight into dough strength. Correct fermentation and dough strength are obviously extremely important when it's time to bake them pies.

Furthermore, the spia is used to decide the timing of going from bulk to balls (see third picture below) and they make convincing arguments as to why this is best done close to (3), where the "vertical phase" begins.

Great book which has changed a lot of my approach to pizza and also made my results significantly more reproducible.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on August 17, 2019, 08:21:39 AM
Seeing that I can read Swedish I really ought to get this book someday!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on August 17, 2019, 11:56:28 AM
What language do you not understand, amolapizza?

Thanks for that, schold! I might have to pick up that book.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on August 17, 2019, 12:09:47 PM
What language do you not understand, amolapizza?

Most! :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 18, 2019, 05:20:14 AM
One of my pluviometers doubled as a rain gauge yesterday.
As the rain poured down, I watched the race between dough and rain. The rain had a decent head start, but at 1:30 PM, the dough caught up, as documented below. From that point on, there dough was always ahead.

Come bake time, the pluviometer (with the dough) showed 29 mm, which translates to about 1.9x rise. It had been made 19 hours earlier from Caputo Biologica, 63% water, 2.9% salt and .023% CY. Since then, it fermented for 12 hours in bulk and 7 hours in balls at 23-24°C.

Because of the weather situation, our party of 7 was forced to dine inside this time. We have a small marquee for situations like this, but it is quite small and barely covers the area where I bake and dress the pies.

The dough was very workable! However, the rain found a way to interfere, seemingly coming at me from all sides and mixing with the bench flour, clinging on to the peel and in general doing its best to confuse me. It took a few attempts to get attuned to the situation, but finally I did, and from then on out I think the bake went quite well.

It's been a while since I made my Pizza Salma, and it was a very welcome return. The thin slices of tender raw salmon added post bake gets warmed up just right by the hot pie, creating a delightully tender texture. It literally melts in your mouth. Topped with some cilantro leaves and a little lemon zest, it's hard not to over eat (which I did). Very subjective of course, but my clear number 1 this afternoon.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on August 18, 2019, 10:17:05 AM
Very Nice looking Pizza Arne!
The similarity between our pizza is quite strong, which to me means I am making improvement. I was struck by similarity and put them into a Google photo collage. While toppings vary, “look and feel” was close I think (this time)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 18, 2019, 12:19:55 PM


Very Nice looking Pizza Arne!
The similarity between our pizza is quite strong, which to me means I am making improvement. I was struck by similarity and put them into a Google photo collage. While toppings vary, “look and feel” was close I think (this time)

Thank you Greg. Wow I think you're right. They are very similar indeed! Fun collage. :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: crawsdaddy on August 19, 2019, 12:57:21 PM
In addion to following the fermentation process with dough in a graduated cylinder, they also use a so-called spread test (see picture below where they employ common kitchen cookware, I guess for the sake of the beginner). The idea is to measure the diameter of a dough ball (which doesn't have any "side support") in order to obtain insight into dough strength. Correct fermentation and dough strength are obviously extremely important when it's time to bake them pies.

Furthermore, the spia is used to decide the timing of going from bulk to balls (see third picture below) and they make convincing arguments as to why this is best done close to (3), where the "vertical phase" begins.


I assume that they advocate watching the spy and balling when there is upward movement. Is that correct?  Also, could you elaborate on the spread test?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: schold on August 19, 2019, 03:13:35 PM
I assume that they advocate watching the spy and balling when there is upward movement. Is that correct?

Yes.

Also, could you elaborate on the spread test?

Not that much to it, really. Dough ball without support: The larger the diameter when it is time to bake, the weaker the dough and vice versa. Adjust the strength as needed by for example changing hydration and/or adding or skipping a few extra slap n' folds during the bulk phase.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Michiel on August 21, 2019, 07:41:22 AM
Thanks for the help! I'm going to try this pluviometer thingy!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 26, 2019, 01:26:14 AM
It seems I'm having a hard time getting proper browning lately. Yesterday was no different. Not sure if it is related to the flour, but I started noticing this when I switched to Caputo Biologica earlier a little while back. I'll be keeping an eye on this going forward.

It was a relaxed pizza session yesterday with just my little nuclear family of 4. The summer was back with sun, clear sky and warm temperatures.

The dough: 100% Caputo Biologica, 62.0% water, 2.9% Salt and 3.6% SD.
Fermentation: 19 hours at 23°C average (12.5 hours in bulk at 23.5°C + 6.5 hours in balls at 22.0°C).

The pluviometer showed about 1.7x rise (26,5 mm) when I started making pizza. The dough was very nice to work with, yet I think I would have preferred more time in balls, and/or less tight balling.

In addition to the usual favorites, I made one with pistachio pesto, mozzarella and mortadella, sprinkled with chopped pistachios and lemon zest. I still need to fine tune this one somewhat, but I really like this combo. If only peeling the skin off of the pistachios wasn't such a PITA.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Michiel on August 26, 2019, 06:29:22 AM
It seems I'm having a hard time getting proper browning lately. Yesterday was no different. Not sure if it is related to the flour, but I started noticing this when I switched to Caputo Biologica earlier a little while back. I'll be keeping an eye on this going forward.

It was a relaxed pizza session yesterday with just my little nuclear family of 4. The summer was back with sun, clear sky and warm temperatures.

The dough: 100% Caputo Biologica, 62.0% water, 2.9% Salt and 3.6% SD.
Fermentation: 19 hours at 23°C average (12.5 hours in bulk at 23.5°C + 6.5 hours in balls at 22.0°C).

The pluviometer showed about 1.7x rise (26,5 mm) when I started making pizza. The dough was very nice to work with, yet I think I would have preferred more time in balls, and/or less tight balling.

In addition to the usual favorites, I made one with pistachio pesto, mozzarella and mortadella, sprinkled with chopped pistachios and lemon zest. I still need to fine tune this one somewhat, but I really like this combo. If only peeling the skin off of the pistachios wasn't such a PITA.

Do you mind if I copy your Pesto mortadella recipe? Do you put on the mortadella post bake?
Looks really nice.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on August 26, 2019, 11:26:54 AM
Interesting combination with the Pesto/Pistachio Arne.  Can you find the pistachios in the picture below?  They come from Kroger grocery.  I am not sure of their international coverage.  As always, I am inspired by your Margherita.  All the pies are beautiful!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 26, 2019, 01:18:12 PM
Do you mind if I copy your Pesto mortadella recipe? Do you put on the mortadella post bake?
Looks really nice.
Sure, here is how it was done.

1. On the disc of dough, add a spread of pistachio pesto (see below), followed by a fist full of mozzarella.
2. Cook in oven as usual.
3. Post bake, add the mortadella, a couple of finely chopped pistachios, some lemon zest and a basil leaf or two.

The pistachio pesto I make is a work in progress based on the one found here:    https://ricette.giallozafferano.it/Pesto-di-pistacchi.html

Here's my current take on it:

150 g Pistachios (unsalted, shelled)
30 g Parmigiano Reggiano (grated)
Zest from 1/2 lemon
1/2 Garlic clove
100 ml Extra virgin olive oil
100 ml Water
Salt q.b.
Black pepper q.b.

To remove the skin from the pistachios, add the shelled pistachios to a pot of boiling water, leave for a couple of minutes, then drain and rinse in cold water. Now the peel is soft and easily removed by hand (note that this is a time consuming operation).

Once peeled and vibrantly green, tansfer the pistachios to a mixer, add the olive oil, grated Parmigiano, garlic and lemon zest. Pulse for a few seconds. Now add the water, salt and pepper and keep pulsing until the pesto has a creamy and homogeneous consistency.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 26, 2019, 01:25:29 PM
Interesting combination with the Pesto/Pistachio Arne.  Can you find the pistachios in the picture below?  They come from Kroger grocery.  I am not sure of their international coverage.  As always, I am inspired by your Margherita.  All the pies are beautiful!

Thank you Scott. I don't think that particulat brand is available to me, at least I've never seen it in any stores. Fortunately I've found a few suppliers of nuts in Oslo that are of really good quality. It makes all the difference in a pizza like this.

Still, the cheese is important too of course! :-) (alas the mozzarella I used this time was pretty bad - a never before seen brand that I regrettably just had to test).

Edit: a few typos
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on August 26, 2019, 06:50:40 PM
Arne, a very nice selection of pies, well crafted! The Jarslberg is that a sliced cheese, that is the only way I have seen it around me, perhaps I have to look further afield. The only pie with pistachios I have tried is the Pizza Rosa by Chris Bianco, I believe a favourite of Schold’s. Nice colours!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 27, 2019, 04:20:12 PM


Arne, a very nice selection of pies, well crafted! The Jarslberg is that a sliced cheese, that is the only way I have seen it around me, perhaps I have to look further afield. The only pie with pistachios I have tried is the Pizza Rosa by Chris Bianco, I believe a favourite of Schold’s. Nice colours!

Thanks, Greg. Yes you can get Jarlsberg pre-sliced, pre-grated, in triangular slices or, as in my case, as a cube. Photo below. It's a Norwegian cheese, but I know it is widely exported and also produced under license in the US.

My kids won't accept anything else on pizza. :-D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 27, 2019, 04:33:00 PM
I cut a lot of mozzarella. Really, a lot. I considered buying a french fry cutter or a vegetable dicer, but I can't seem to find a good fit at a reasonable price.

So I started to ponder a few DIY options, and after some thought I decided a grid made from fishing line might work. So I cobbled together a prototype, shown below. :D

Awkward looking, but initial testing gave promising results. I'll give it a proper spin this weekend.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: DoouBall on August 27, 2019, 09:43:40 PM
I love it! Nicely done, Arne!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Hanglow on August 28, 2019, 11:27:43 AM
Inventive! a potato chipper would work well although they are a bit more expensive than DIY. I've thought about getting one too, but can't bring myself to try and fit another toy into the kitchen  :-D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on August 28, 2019, 12:23:14 PM
Here was my attempt so many moons ago
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41907.msg433520#msg433520 (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41907.msg433520#msg433520)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 28, 2019, 04:12:43 PM
Here was my attempt so many moons ago
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41907.msg433520#msg433520 (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41907.msg433520#msg433520)
Ah I remember seeing that now. Do you still use it?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on August 28, 2019, 07:01:58 PM
I mix it up a bit, now usually torn but sometimes cut cubes and others small French fry shape. My preference is Buffala Mozzarella when I can source it. After Scott’s information, I picked up a block of Jarlsberg at Costco but note it is made in USA. Will try next bake, bring your kids . . . .  .
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 28, 2019, 10:46:12 PM
I love Jarlsberg! It is a great melting cheese too. Personally though, I like it better on thick crust pizza (thicker base and more heavily topped) than on Neapolitan style. That said, my son's favorite with Jarlsberg, spicy salsiccia and red onions is not half bad.

Hopefully you'll enjoy it too!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on September 01, 2019, 07:01:57 AM
I really enjoyed the Ciro Salco video ebpizza posted a while back (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=58936.0). The Dell'Alleanza pie intrigued me the most; partially because of the lardo, partly because of the final touch of the grated conciato romano. I've tasted this cheese just once before, at Pepe in Grani, and I remember it having a very distinct aroma and a unique and powerful taste.

Inspired by this, I set out to try some new ingredients and combinations when family joined us for pizza this Saturday.

The dough: 100% Caputo Biologica, 63.0% water, 2.9% Salt and 4.7% SD. Fermentation was 18 hours at 23.5°C average (11.5 hours in bulk + 6.5 hours in balls).

Mixing procedure: The dough was mixed using a Santos fork mixer for about 4 minutes. I started with just water and yeast. Flour was added bit by bit during the first two minutes. The salt went in after one minute.

I did just a very few stretch and folds after the dough was dumped into the bench, since it seemed to have enough strength already out of the machine.

Balling: I made 260 gram balls and placed them in a wooden tray. I lightly floured the bottom of the dough box this time. Usually I don't, but I thought it might make extraction a little easier (which it actually did).

Shaping: The pluviometer showed about 1.7x rise (26 mm) when the first dough ball was lifted from the dough box. I was very happy with how this dough felt and behaved during shaping. Very soft and tender, yet strong enough to carry the toppings over to the peel and generally keep its shape through the launch. Compared to my previous post, I upped the hydration slightly. Also, I was conscious about balling a bit less tightly than last time. I guess both of these changes might have contributed to the improvement I experienced here.

Cooking: I think the browning was a tad better this time, though I have no clear idea why that might be. Baking times were between 50 and 80 seconds, which on average is similar to the previous bake.

Tasting: The crust tasted very good, as I've come to expect from my typical Ischia based doughs. It was also very soft and tender, but there was also a thin yet marked "crispy skin" covering the cornicione. While appealing to some of my guests, personally I would like to avoid it. This extra little crunch is something I've had from time to time but it seems more frequent with my latest doughs. Could the change of flour be responsible, or have I made slight changes to my process? Not sure. Another thing to keep track of.

Our little "tasting meny" consisted of the following combinations:

"Friarielli & Salsiccia": Scamorza, friarielli, spicy fennel sausage, basil, EVOO. Friarielli and sausage is apparently a classic combination that I've never really tried before. But it was good and generally well received by the guests.
 
"Friarielli & Pomodorini": Mozzarella, friarielli, semi dried pomodorini, red onion, conciato romano. An ad-hoc combination made because of some lovely tomatoes I sourced at my local Italian store (Smak av Italia/Taste of Italy) and the fortunate fact that I was able to source conciato romano (online from Titaly). We all loved it.

"Taleggio & Mushrooms": Taleggio, oyster mushroom, spicy fennel sausage, pepper, EVOO. Not bad, but needs better balancing of the ingredients next time.

"Margherita": Always on!

"Lardo & Mozzarella": Lardo, mozzarella, red onion, conciato romano, EVOO. The recipe is taken Ciro Salvo (Pizza Dell'Alleanza). It was very good, but next time I need to tune the amounts as mine got a little too greesy for our tastes.

"Lardo & Figs": Lardo, black pepper, oregano, fig jam, basil, conciato romano, EVOO. Based on Franco Pepe's La Pinsa conciata del '500, which I was lucky to taste during my trip to Caiazzo this spring. A long way to go to nail this one.

Photos below.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: pizzadaheim on September 01, 2019, 07:25:09 AM
Great looking pies 👍
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on September 01, 2019, 10:08:14 AM
Ah friarelli, that's really super good!  :drool:  :drool:  :drool:

Congrats on the nice looking pizza!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on September 01, 2019, 10:09:49 AM
Great looking pizzas Arne!  I think the friarielli and sausage is one I will certainly have to try.  Sadly, I have looked for smoked scamorza before and cant seem to find it.  Your combinations are always inspiring!  And how you gather all those different ingredients and make so many pizzas is amazing!

I laughed at the Virginia Creeper over the oven.  I did not realize it was so invasive it crawled from my yard in Georgia all the way to Norway!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Heikjo on September 01, 2019, 02:00:27 PM
Mouth-watering stuff...

What is friarielli called in Norway and where did you find it?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on September 02, 2019, 05:05:08 AM


What is friarielli called in Norway and where did you find it?

I'm not sure we've got a word for Friarielli in Norway, or if we do then I'm not aware of it. I usually juse call it "Italian mini broccoli".

Unfortunately there are no consumer stores here that I know of that sell these, but online there are several options. I frequent youdreamitaly and titaly, and they both have it. You can get it canned in water or in a jar with oil and spices.

Photo below shows the one I used, glass with friarielli in oil with garlic and chili.

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Pete_da_Bayer on September 02, 2019, 06:54:30 AM
Mouth-watering stuff...

What is friarielli called in Norway and where did you find it?
Hi there,
it´s hard to find in Germany as well. I was surprised that there´s even a German name for it, "Stängelkohl". Maybe it`s something similar in Norwegian.
Anyways, i´ve bought some seeds on Ebay and grew it in the garden. I am sure it works in Norway as well. I found the seeds under "Cime di Rapa".
I think it took about six weeks until the veggies were ready to harvest. Then i`ve steamed them; first the stalks, after 10 min. i added the leaves for another 10 min. Afterwards i portioned them by forming little balls and put them in a bag in the freezer. You could give it a try.
Cheers, Peter
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on September 02, 2019, 07:20:38 AM
Peter, that is a great suggestion! Why didn't I think of that? :)

Thank you so much.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Pete_da_Bayer on September 02, 2019, 07:54:17 AM
Peter, that is a great suggestion! Why didn't I think of that? :)

Thank you so much.
You´re welcome :) Your pizzas look fantastic by the way;)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on September 16, 2019, 09:52:28 AM
In the shelter of Madness, I prepared three doughs from varying flours and SD amounts:

Dough ADough BDough C
FlourCaputo CuocoCaputo PizzeriaCaputo Biologica
Water65%65%65%
Salt2.9%2.9%2.9%
SD1.0%3.0%30.0%
Fermentation time47 h (41+6)24 h (18+6)7.5 h (1.5+6)
Target temp18.9°C21.4°C22.5°C
Actual average temp18.7°C22.2°C21.6°C

Fermentation times were first set based on the strength of each flour, then adjusted to match the room temperatures currently available. Other than that, my purpose with this was simply to observe and learn, no particular variable being tested this time.

Fermentation
All dough balls ended up in a single dough box, making temperature management a bit harder (or perhaps actually simpler). In the end, the rises at bake time, and the feel of each dough, can be summarized as follows:

Dough A: 2.2x rise
This went too far as per my general preference, so I expected the dough to be rather weak and a bit difficult at this point, especially being a 65% hydrated dough. This was not the case at all. Aparently, Cuoco is some very strong stuff that can handle both time and water like a champ. Actually, these dough balls could have benefitted from few more hours of relaxation.

Dough B: 1.6x rise
Slightly less rise than I like, which would normally result in a rather stiff and elastic dough. That's excactly how it behaved too, unfortunately. It took a lot of heavy handed slapping to get into shape. More rise and/or more time in balls would have produced a better result i think, but since this dough (i.e. 24 hour Pizzeria at 65% HR) was very similar to a great number of doughs I've made before, it didn't bother me too much as I kind of know this one.

Dough C: 1.8x rise
This dough was in perfect condition, both by the numbers and by the feel of it.

Baking
I tried something new today: Test bread. I shaped, but did not dress, one ball from each batch and cooked for about 60 seconds as I normally would. Besides the fun of watching them inflate to the point where they acted like rolling balls inside my oven, it was also instructive to sample the baked results. Just from this little exercise, some interesting observations were made by the tasting panel (photo below):

Observation 1: Acidity.
The dough with the least amount of Ischia, and fermented for the longest time (A at 1.0% SD for 47 hours), had a pronounced acidity to it. The others did not.
My personal preference is less sourness, so I preferred B and C over A in that regard.

Observation 2: Crispness.
The dough made with Caputo Biologica (C) had a thin crispy crust that was missing from the other two batches. I have noticed this tendency of Biologica previously too, but comparing directly with the other doughs left little doubt. How much of this is caused by the just flour, and how much is contributed by other factors such as fermentation time, how I handle the dough, etc, I cannot say for certain. But I feel pretty confident now that at least part of the explanation lies in the flour.
By the way, my personal preference is generally softness over crunch, but I do enjoy NP with a slight crisp too. Some days I even prefer it.

Observation 3: Huge amounts of SD is OK
I have never went as high as 30% SD before. I have not even come close. But it worked great!

Photos
A few pizzas documented below. We used yellow tomatoes from our own garden for the first one. It's such a joy to use own produce. Brussels sprout is also in season now (though not in my backyard) so a pancetta and brussels sprout pie was on the menu too.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on September 16, 2019, 10:55:14 AM
Nice to see places and faces . . . .and very fine looking pizza!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on September 22, 2019, 03:45:38 AM
Last night's pizza session was a good one. Once again we lucked out with blue sky and warm temperatures.

I made two doughs with the purpose of trying out different mixing procedures side by side. In the first batch I added all of the flour at once, and in the second batch I added flour one spoonfull at a time until completely incorporated.

Recipe: Caputo Pizzeria, 65% water, 2.9% salt, 3.0% SD.
Fermentation: 25 hours (9+16) at 22°C
Final rise: 1.7x.

In short, both doughs seemed identical to me. They looked the same, behaved the same, baked the same and tasted the same. The doughs were very workable and produced a tender crust with little or no crunch. It was a good session.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on September 22, 2019, 06:31:02 AM
Interesting experiment.  Mixed in your spiral mixer?  Was there a difference in mixing time and when did you add the salt?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on September 22, 2019, 11:02:59 AM
Interesting experiment.  Mixed in your spiral mixer?  Was there a difference in mixing time and when did you add the salt?

I used my Kenwood with a spiral hook. Both were mixed at minimum speed for as long as it took to see the dough let go of the bowl. In both cases, that amounted to about 8 minutes. Salt was mixed with the water upfront, then I added the culture and finally the flour.

The results were interesting and unexpected to me. Beforehand, I was pretty sure there would be a discernible difference.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on September 22, 2019, 02:11:58 PM
Nice bright beautiful pies Arne!
It was interesting to read your experiment and I was happy to hear that there was no discernible difference in the doughs because as you know from our long distance bake, my methods is very much like your second method. I have nothing to compare to, but my dough seems good, soft and flavourful when I mix it in that manner, after that it is eyes, hands and fire that decide the outcome.
I am in the big city of Vancouver so able to source some cheeses and found the buffala mozzarella DOP,  and searched for a new cheese,  stracchino, which was recommended to me but I have not been able to find. I got close . . “yes Sir it is right here . . . . Oh, it was, there we 6 packages just an hour ago” I wondered if you had tried it at home or in Italy.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on September 22, 2019, 03:08:54 PM
I am in the big city of Vancouver so able to source some cheeses and found the buffala mozzarella DOP,  and searched for a new cheese,  stracchino, which was recommended to me but I have not been able to find. I got close . . “yes Sir it is right here . . . . Oh, it was, there we 6 packages just an hour ago” I wondered if you had tried it at home or in Italy.

Thank you, Greg. And sorry to hear about your missed stracchino opportunity. It's a difficult cheese to source for me as well, I guess because it is quite perishable. But whenever I find it, I buy some.

I must confess that I've not used it much for pizza, however. Rather, we've come to love the cheese as a side with coccoli: deep fried "bread batter" with stracchino and some good quality prosciutto is a match made in heaven.


Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: hotsawce on September 29, 2019, 12:44:45 AM
Arne,

Are you sure the crispness is from the flour and not from the fermentation? It crossed my mind - I know someone who tries to approximate a deep caramel color and flavor of a waffle cone and uses a lot of starter for a day-of fermentation. He gets a bit more crisp doing it this way.

I've also noticed, even with regular Caputo, a same-day yeasted pizza is always much more evenly brown and also has a little bit of crispness.

That being said, I'm not so sure I like large amounts of sourdough. I did a same day sourdough dough today and even at 12% and it changed pretty rapidly over the 5 to 6 hour usability window I'm trying to achieve.

Maybe try the biologica using the recipe on your most recent batch with the 24h room temp ferment?

In the shelter of Madness, I prepared three doughs from varying flours and SD amounts:

Dough ADough BDough C
FlourCaputo CuocoCaputo PizzeriaCaputo Biologica
Water65%65%65%
Salt2.9%2.9%2.9%
SD1.0%3.0%30.0%
Fermentation time47 h (41+6)24 h (18+6)7.5 h (1.5+6)
Target temp18.9°C21.4°C22.5°C
Actual average temp18.7°C22.2°C21.6°C

Fermentation times were first set based on the strength of each flour, then adjusted to match the room temperatures currently available. Other than that, my purpose with this was simply to observe and learn, no particular variable being tested this time.

Fermentation
All dough balls ended up in a single dough box, making temperature management a bit harder (or perhaps actually simpler). In the end, the rises at bake time, and the feel of each dough, can be summarized as follows:

Dough A: 2.2x rise
This went too far as per my general preference, so I expected the dough to be rather weak and a bit difficult at this point, especially being a 65% hydrated dough. This was not the case at all. Aparently, Cuoco is some very strong stuff that can handle both time and water like a champ. Actually, these dough balls could have benefitted from few more hours of relaxation.

Dough B: 1.6x rise
Slightly less rise than I like, which would normally result in a rather stiff and elastic dough. That's excactly how it behaved too, unfortunately. It took a lot of heavy handed slapping to get into shape. More rise and/or more time in balls would have produced a better result i think, but since this dough (i.e. 24 hour Pizzeria at 65% HR) was very similar to a great number of doughs I've made before, it didn't bother me too much as I kind of know this one.

Dough C: 1.8x rise
This dough was in perfect condition, both by the numbers and by the feel of it.

Baking
I tried something new today: Test bread. I shaped, but did not dress, one ball from each batch and cooked for about 60 seconds as I normally would. Besides the fun of watching them inflate to the point where they acted like rolling balls inside my oven, it was also instructive to sample the baked results. Just from this little exercise, some interesting observations were made by the tasting panel (photo below):

Observation 1: Acidity.
The dough with the least amount of Ischia, and fermented for the longest time (A at 1.0% SD for 47 hours), had a pronounced acidity to it. The others did not.
My personal preference is less sourness, so I preferred B and C over A in that regard.

Observation 2: Crispness.
The dough made with Caputo Biologica (C) had a thin crispy crust that was missing from the other two batches. I have noticed this tendency of Biologica previously too, but comparing directly with the other doughs left little doubt. How much of this is caused by the just flour, and how much is contributed by other factors such as fermentation time, how I handle the dough, etc, I cannot say for certain. But I feel pretty confident now that at least part of the explanation lies in the flour.
By the way, my personal preference is generally softness over crunch, but I do enjoy NP with a slight crisp too. Some days I even prefer it.

Observation 3: Huge amounts of SD is OK
I have never went as high as 30% SD before. I have not even come close. But it worked great!

Photos
A few pizzas documented below. We used yellow tomatoes from our own garden for the first one. It's such a joy to use own produce. Brussels sprout is also in season now (though not in my backyard) so a pancetta and brussels sprout pie was on the menu too.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on September 29, 2019, 12:55:15 PM
Arne,

Are you sure the crispness is from the flour and not from the fermentation? It crossed my mind - I know someone who tries to approximate a deep caramel color and flavor of a waffle cone and uses a lot of starter for a day-of fermentation. He gets a bit more crisp doing it this way.

That is an interesting question. In one word: No. I am not certain. But since that extra crispiness is something I cannot say I've detected to the same degree with my years of using Pizzeria, I thought part of the equation might be Biologica.

Then again, Sorbillo is said to use Biologica in his dough, and I've certainly not had any crunchy cornicione served there. So if the flour is in any way responsible, there is more to it than just the flour.


That being said, I'm not so sure I like large amounts of sourdough. I did a same day sourdough dough today and even at 12% and it changed pretty rapidly over the 5 to 6 hour usability window I'm trying to achieve.

Yeah, one of the downside of using large amounts of SD (or yeast) to get the necessary rise in a short time is that it will zoom through its usability window too. :-)

I usually stay below 6% myself, and I was hesitant to using 30% as it seemed crazy to me. But it worked amazingly well. Short usability window aside, what really took me by surprise was the flavor, which was excellent. Tastes differ, and so do cultures, so to be precise this was an Ischia culture that I store in room temp and feed twice a day at 2:1:1 ratio.

Maybe try the biologica using the recipe on your most recent batch with the 24h room temp ferment?

That is an interesting suggestion! I have now added it to my list of things to try.

Edit: I just checked and I have in fact done this a number of times. Many times 19-20 hours, and a few times 24 hours. The main problem with 24 hours and Biologica is that the flour is so weak that the dough ends up very slack and difficult. I'll consult the tasting notes when I get back home (currently on a long distance train from Bergen to Oslo).
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on October 02, 2019, 10:39:11 AM
My recent doughs have been stronger than normal: The balls are not as relaxed as I am used to, and it takes some effort to form the discs. This is not a huge problem. Actually, I kind of like how it feels in my hands. The pies come out soft and good as well. But I am not sure what has changed, and this bugs me.

I have not made any notable changes to my workflow that I can think of. One thing that has changed is that I've started routinely hardening my water with gypsum after I started upping the hydration level again. The reason for this is that hardening my otherwise soft tap water can be useful to counter stickiness. At least that is the theory and also what I found last year when I did a side by side comparison of similar doughs with and without gypsum added. The effect was not huge, however, so I am doubtful that this is relevant.

Another difference is that I've switched to a new sack of Caputo Pizzeria not long ago. I guess it is conceivable that the observed effect is caused by variation in the flour quality. But even my Biologica based doughs have been stronger than usual, so I think I'll rule that out for now.

Water hardness seems to be the only real clue I've got, then. Time to do a repeat of last year's experiment and see what happens:

I made two almost identical doughs, the only difference being whether or not i treated my soft tap water with 0.03%.

Recipe: Caputo Pizzeria, 65% water, 2.9% salt, 2.9% SD.
Fermentation: 24 hours (14+10) at 21.5°C
Final rise: 1.7x.

I used my Kenwood with a spiral hook to mix these two, and already when I dumped them onto the counter after mixing in the machine I noticed that they had a very similar consistency. The batch treated with gypsum seemed a tiny bit more tight, but they were both what I would consider "stronger than normal".

During balling, I aimed to make the balls as loose as I could. Nevertheless, when it was time to bake, it was obvious that the balls were "stronger than normal", not as relaxed as I have come to expect. At this, point the difference between the two batches was barely noticeable: They were both dry to the touch, soft yet firm and handled well.

Good pizza, but I am still not sure what has changed. This may very well have been this season's last session, so maybe I'll have to wait a year to figure this one out.

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on October 02, 2019, 11:50:48 AM
Lovely colouring of the crust, I need lessons! All the pizza look soft, bright and lively.
You’ll have to do flashback posts through the winter showing some of the best of the year!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Jon in Albany on October 02, 2019, 12:40:30 PM
Very good looking pizza. Shame to see a season of those ending.

Any chance the change in dough is related to the wood dough box? I thought you were using plastic dough trays not that long ago.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on October 02, 2019, 09:00:28 PM
Great looking pizzas Arne.  Perhaps in your winter break you can teach me how to properly prepare the cheese for the beautiful meld into the tomato.  Oslo weather looks like there may be another chance just. yet.  At 8c - 9c, I would not hesitate to light the oven!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: hotsawce on October 03, 2019, 12:15:07 AM
These still look fantastic (I wish my best efforts looked so good.) If I had to guess, I think it may be a starter issue. Did you notice this when making yeasted versions?

Starter is a funny thing. There was a period where all of my sourdough balls were very tight, no matter what I did.

My recent doughs have been stronger than normal: The balls are not as relaxed as I am used to, and it takes some effort to form the discs. This is not a huge problem. Actually, I kind of like how it feels in my hands. The pies come out soft and good as well. But I am not sure what has changed, and this bugs me.

I have not made any notable changes to my workflow that I can think of. One thing that has changed is that I've started routinely hardening my water with gypsum after I started upping the hydration level again. The reason for this is that hardening my otherwise soft tap water can be useful to counter stickiness. At least that is the theory and also what I found last year when I did a side by side comparison of similar doughs with and without gypsum added. The effect was not huge, however, so I am doubtful that this is relevant.

Another difference is that I've switched to a new sack of Caputo Pizzeria not long ago. I guess it is conceivable that the observed effect is caused by variation in the flour quality. But even my Biologica based doughs have been stronger than usual, so I think I'll rule that out for now.

Water hardness seems to be the only real clue I've got, then. Time to do a repeat of last year's experiment and see what happens:

I made two almost identical doughs, the only difference being whether or not i treated my soft tap water with 0.03%.

Recipe: Caputo Pizzeria, 65% water, 2.9% salt, 2.9% SD.
Fermentation: 24 hours (14+10) at 21.5°C
Final rise: 1.7x.

I used my Kenwood with a spiral hook to mix these two, and already when I dumped them onto the counter after mixing in the machine I noticed that they had a very similar consistency. The batch treated with gypsum seemed a tiny bit more tight, but they were both what I would consider "stronger than normal".

During balling, I aimed to make the balls as loose as I could. Nevertheless, when it was time to bake, it was obvious that the balls were "stronger than normal", not as relaxed as I have come to expect. At this, point the difference between the two batches was barely noticeable: They were both dry to the touch, soft yet firm and handled well.

Good pizza, but I am still not sure what has changed. This may very well have been this season's last session, so maybe I'll have to wait a year to figure this one out.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on October 03, 2019, 06:36:47 AM
Greg, Jon, Scott, Hotsawce, thank you for the kind comments and for the input on the firmness thing.

Any chance the change in dough is related to the wood dough box? I thought you were using plastic dough trays not that long ago.

Interesting suggestion. I us both wood and plastic, it depends on the batch size (my plastic containers hold 6 balls, the wood containers hold up to 15). The material friction might come into play, and the difference in batch size too. I will check my notes and see if it is possible to find a pattern here.

If I had to guess, I think it may be a starter issue. Did you notice this when making yeasted versions?

That is something I had not considered. Since you ask, I have actually been using SD almost exclusively lately. Temperatures are changing and I've noticed that this has affected the consistency of the starter too. Perhaps I get a chance to try SD vs CY soon and find out.

Oslo weather looks like there may be another chance just. yet.  At 8c - 9c, I would not hesitate to light the oven!

Agreed, I'll jump at the first chance I get.  :chef:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Kermit on October 03, 2019, 07:55:03 AM
Sure does look great with those pies!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Hanglow on October 03, 2019, 01:24:03 PM
Lovely looking pizzas again

I've been using 0.2% gypsum to my dough, I think the dough doctor recommended that amount when adding to RO water and my water is pretty much close to that.  I certainly think it makes a noticable difference.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on October 03, 2019, 05:18:03 PM
Could it be a change in humidity of the salt?  Salt also makes the dough stronger.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on October 05, 2019, 04:58:39 AM
Lovely looking pizzas again

I've been using 0.2% gypsum to my dough, I think the dough doctor recommended that amount when adding to RO water and my water is pretty much close to that.  I certainly think it makes a noticable difference.

Thanks!

When you say 0.2%, is that weight percentage relative to water or flour?

I was also cursious if the number 0.2% is correct of if you meant 0.02%? (I used 0.03% relative to water weight, or about 0.02% relative to the flour weight). It's such a big difference that I thought I'd ask. :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Hanglow on October 05, 2019, 06:10:42 AM
0.2% of flour, so 2g per kilo of flour.

Not pizza but here is Tom mentioning it at a rate of 0.25% to 0.5% for potato rolls  :chef:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=59473.0

reply #6
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on October 12, 2019, 12:00:46 PM
Today we had pizza for lunch. It was just the four of us, which was the perfect oportunity to use the last remnants of the Biologica bag.


Fermentation: 24 hours (18+6) at 20-21°C
Final rise: 1.8x

The dough was very good today. So was the pizza. The browning of the crust could have been better.

I tested out Pizza Amatriciana today. It tasted very much like I had expected: Pasta Amatriciana, minus pasta, plus pizza. Quite the substantial pie. I decided to call it "hangover pizza", just what the doctor ordered today.

In addition, a skateboard margherita, a marinara and last but not least: Scarpetta.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on October 12, 2019, 01:41:38 PM
I have made your version of the Scarpetta, many times, but not sure the prep for the “Hangover Pizza” would be advisable! Perhaps without the preparatory imbibing it will still turn out. I will have to substitute Pancetta.
I will look back on the suggestions for the Scarpetta, the basil in oil looks better than finely chopped.
Thanks for your post, I am baking tonight and hoping to avoid the dreaded snowshoe pizza.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on October 13, 2019, 08:17:40 AM


I have made your version of the Scarpetta, many times, but not sure the prep for the “Hangover Pizza” would be advisable! Perhaps without the preparatory imbibing it will still turn out. I will have to substitute Pancetta.

I am sure pancetta is a great substitute.

While you may get away with skipping the "preparatory step", I am afraid that might reduce or even eliminate the "ooh that hit the spot" feeling that otherwise accomanies the intake of said pie.

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on October 13, 2019, 12:57:09 PM
Sadly, this wraps up the season for me.

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on October 13, 2019, 01:55:38 PM
I can see more T shirts coming . . . . .
 
Sorry to see the cover, perhaps you can throw yourself into your other pursuits . . . .
Looking forward to March already
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: schold on October 13, 2019, 02:39:15 PM
 .
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on October 13, 2019, 03:29:04 PM
I can see more T shirts coming . . . . .
 
Sorry to see the cover, perhaps you can throw yourself into your other pursuits . . . .
Looking forward to March already
Yes the T-shirt avalanche is unstoppable at this point. :D

I'll return to brewing beer for a period now. It's something I just cannot find time to during pizza season. So all is well. :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on October 13, 2019, 03:30:34 PM
.
Thanks, Schold. I have found myself pondered something like that every now and then... :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: schold on October 13, 2019, 04:31:44 PM
The winter is long in Norway, as you know, and you would no doubt make great pizza in an Effeuno too.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on October 14, 2019, 07:44:42 AM
Oh no!  I glanced at Oslo weather and it does not look cold as yet, just wet.  Does the bad weather move in quickly?  We will all miss your beautiful pizza creations!!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on October 14, 2019, 02:45:14 PM
Surely you have another month to cook outside? ;)

Otherwise I'm sure that either a p134h/gara or a small gas fired oven would make a reasonable substitute :D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Yael on October 14, 2019, 10:18:59 PM
Sadly, this wraps up the season for me.

Come on Arne!

You can turn anything into a WFO/GFO if you're addicted enough  :-D

(but be careful don't do anything dangerous!!)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: schold on October 15, 2019, 03:08:37 PM
It seems to be a demand that Arne gets himself a winter oven! :D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on October 15, 2019, 04:08:15 PM
Thank you so much for back nudges and shoulder pats, guys. If not an indoor oven is imminent, at least I am warm inside.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on October 16, 2019, 04:52:08 PM
AHAA!
Pizza Fritte Napoletana!
Come on Arne!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Chicago Bob on October 16, 2019, 09:52:04 PM
Fritte

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on October 18, 2019, 12:21:40 PM
What a great idea, and a wonderful example.

I did a few montanara last summer and found it very good indeed. Thanks for the tip, this is very doable without any special equipment.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on October 25, 2019, 08:07:30 PM
While I don’t have to put my oven to bed . . . . .I am thinking I should have printed sweatshirts, not T shirts!
Cool and 48 KM winds here now, think I will hold off on the bake for a couple of days!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on November 01, 2019, 12:25:16 PM
I was fortunate enough to find myself in Milan last weekend where I got to taste som real Neapolitan style pizza again.

It was magical.
It was also a bit melancholy. I miss the stuff.
Then, as if out of the blue, a thought struck me: Didn't Craig post something about making pizza with a blowtorch a while back? As soon as I got back to the hotel, I poured over the forum and sure enough (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=57336.0).

This I had to try.

I already have a decent blowtorch and a sack of Caputo Pizzeria. Time to make dough again.

The dough: 100% Caputo Pizzeria, 66% tap water, 2.9% salt, 0.058% CY.
Fermentation: 24 hours at 18-19°C.
Final rise: 1,8x

After shaping the crust, I spread it out in a frying pan pre-heated to 250°C and immediately started dressing it. Then I fired up the torch and blasted away until it looked finished.

The result was not bad. The taste was very good, but the consistency was a little chewy and stiffer than the real thing. I'm hoping that this can be remedied with a little trial and error. Here's to more testing!

Some photos below.
A little video here: https://youtu.be/PxKJJjcJAVY
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on November 01, 2019, 02:21:50 PM
Do I see a modified CNC Plasma Cutter in your future?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: rdbedwards on November 01, 2019, 02:58:52 PM
Wow, that looks like it came out of a wood fired oven.  Could have fooled me!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on November 01, 2019, 05:18:21 PM
Great job Arne!  What an innovative way to make a pizza.  And the cheese melt, just perfect!

PS, love the Sorbillo plates!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on November 21, 2019, 12:28:21 PM
Thanks a lot, guys!

Sorry for being a little "off" lately, it's hard to keep up the pace out of season.  :-D Greg nudged me the other day and I was inspired to bake again.

My previous blowtorch attempt gave decent results. I was happy with taste, but the consistency could need some improvement. The bottom was a little crisp/hard, and the cornicione was a little dense too, I thought.

This time I decided to up the water percentage to 70%. Also, rather than cooking the bottom completely in the pan, I kept it in just long enough to allow it to "set", and then I finished it off with the blowtorch.

Recipe

Making dough
Mixed in Kenwood with spiral hook at slowest speed for 10 minutes.
Then about five minutes of stretch and fold to get the dough together.
Rest 10 minutes, then a sequence of 4-5 stretch and folds.
Another rest, and 4-5 SFs.
At this point, the dough had come together beautifully and it went to bulk.

Fermentation
21 hours (11+10) at 20.5°C.
While I was aiming for about 1.8x expansion, I under estimated the temperature in mu basement, resulting in a skyrocketing pluviometer. It showed 35 when I was ready to cook, which means I actually got 2.3x expansion.

Results
Despite having a somewhat over fermented dough on my hands, it actually held together nicely. It was very soft, airy and extensible, but with a light touch things went reasonably well. While I had some difficulty getting the shape just right, overall I was pleased with the results. I though I got acceptable coloring and melt on most of the pies.

The taste was excellent. And the consistency was great, a big improvement since my last attempt: Very soft and tender. Just what I had hoped for.
The following video shows me tearing the pizza with one hand (clumsily holding the camera with the other). This was a very digestible pizza.

https://youtu.be/GCLDwfu46u0

Edit: Added some photos.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: schold on November 21, 2019, 03:04:38 PM
Well done! I remember Craig also got good results with this approach a while back. If you lose the plastic handle, maybe putting it under a glowing red broiler would be easier? Anway, it is great to see you cooking :pizza:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on November 21, 2019, 11:28:25 PM
Man, I'm looking at these first BS pies, and thinking, Craig could make a great pizza using a Bic lighter!


I tried to find the origins of the somewhat oft used comment that Craig could make a pizza with a Bic lighter. I believe there maybe a legend in the making here. The determination to make the best pizza using a blowtorch takes some drive and skill,  OK, some admirable skill.

I can picture the round of guests gathered, the host in his Caputo T shirt, oven in the background, wine poured, asbestos plates on the table as the Pizzaioli moves carefully from plate to plate nursing a blonde dough into a Neapolitan pizza . . . More leoparding sir? Cheese melt OK? So sorry about your tie! Be right back with a new canister!

OK, perhaps it was a good wine tonight but my congratulations once again Arne, well done!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on November 22, 2019, 07:28:38 AM
Thank you both. And please, Greg, if the wine is good then keep drinking it! (disclamer: responsibly) The pictures in your head that you so aptly put into words make me laugh out loud. Very inspiring. I think this is a challenge for another t-shirt!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on November 26, 2019, 09:38:30 PM
It takes a very good dough and a lot of skill to make a pie like that with a blow torch!  Great job Arne!!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on November 30, 2019, 04:06:03 AM
It takes a very good dough and a lot of skill to make a pie like that with a blow torch!  Great job Arne!!

Thank you Scott, I'm surprised at how well it actually works. Obviously not comparable to working a WFO, but it does go a long way in satisfying my craving for pizza in the cold months.  :pizza: :pizza: :pizza: :pizza:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on December 04, 2019, 11:38:03 AM
Today I made just a couple of Margheritas. It was the same recipe as last time, fermented at ~20°C for 16+4 hours.

I was trying for more even browning and fewer black areas this time, by dialing back the gas flow a bit and also keeping a little more distance when operating the burner. I think it worked as intended, but the downside was that it took about 8 minutes to finish one pie.

The first pizza was cooked just like last time: Gently heated in a skillet until the bottom has "set" partially, then blasted with fire on all sides until finished.

The second pie was handled a little differently, on a "turntable" setup inspired by the Presto Pizzazz Plus (http://"https://www.amazon.ca/Presto-03430-Pizzazz-Plus-Rotating/dp/B00005IBXJ")  :-D (thanks, Greg). It was an interesting experiment, kind of silly and documented in the video below.

Next time, maybe get away from the skilet and use a warm pizza stone combined with a rotating table? At least I'm getting comfortable with this method and I believe a Scarpetta is soon in order.

Cheers!

https://youtu.be/CaD65Ghlk6E



Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Jon in Albany on December 04, 2019, 12:12:00 PM
It is amazing that you can make a pizza that looks that good this way. Really, really impressive.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on December 04, 2019, 12:14:22 PM
Sharon and I are sitting in the car waiting for a ferry laughing our heads off! What a hoot! Well done as always, but you know, there are easier ways to make a pizza. Perhaps less creatively so, but simpler. There may have to be a new forum set up for you! Perhaps “Welder Style”?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Roadrunner on December 04, 2019, 06:13:39 PM
very interesting method.  looks great!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on December 06, 2019, 01:50:17 PM
I believe you rival the Pizzaiolos in Napoli with your skill and creativity Arne!  Always inspiring!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on December 12, 2019, 01:26:21 PM
Jon, Greg, Roadrunner, Scott: Thanks for you kind comments!

I let the torch rest today and tried my hands on fried pizza instead. This is something I've only ever eaten once before. It was in Naples, but it was actually not that memorable. This may very well be because I was stuffed, however; we had been eating pizza for lunch, snacks and dinner four days in a row before that, and the fried pizza was my last pie on that trip.

Anyway, I found myself craving deep fried pizza for some reason. After a little research I settled on the following:

Dough: 100% Caputo Pizzeria, 62% tap water, 2.9% salt, 0.031% CY.
Fermentation: 22 hours (11+11) at 20-21 °C. I spied 1,7x volume increase at that point.
Filling: Ricotta, mozzarella, tomatoes, pancetta, black pepper, and a few basil leaves.
Doug ball size: 150 grams.

The oil was not supposed to be warmed beyond 175°C according to the packaging. I tried that, but it took forever and the results were poor, so I increased the temperature to right around 200°C instead. That worked much better! (Hopefully with no ill effects on our bodies, or at least no more than already associated with fried pizza)

The results were pretty good we thought. I'm not sure where to go from here, however. Surely there are plenty of ways to improve the results, but since I'm not that familiar with the style, I would not know where to start. The next time I visit Naples I will have to try out more examples for sure!

For now, my craving is satisfied and the next time I think I'll go welder style again.

Some photos below. Cheers!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on December 13, 2019, 12:15:33 PM
Arne, I am sorry you are going to shelve that project, though I look forward to the next instalment of Arne’s Welder Style Pizza.
I have been wanting to try a deep fry of my own but one of us is a tad shy of large quantities of boiling oil, perhaps Calamari size is also pushing it. It may well have been the deep fried turkey we tried, which involved not only boiling oil but flaming torch as well! One day soon I will have to try my hand, though once again I have nothing to compare it to.


I enjoy your thorough reports and your inquisitive adventuresome pursuits and hope they continue.


I found and watched this little video by Enzo Coccia and was pleased to find the English subtitles worked. It should help a bit in my attempts.


https://youtu.be/j68NaLedcV4 (https://youtu.be/j68NaLedcV4)

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on December 14, 2019, 06:35:23 AM
The project may be on the backburner for a while, but I have actually ordered Enzo's book on fried pizza now. :-D

It will hopefully be a good read for the Christmas holidays...
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on December 14, 2019, 01:48:57 PM
And the book is in Italian?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on December 14, 2019, 06:23:04 PM
Yes it's in Italian. But I'm starting to get a grip on "pizza-Italian" so hopefully I'm good.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on December 14, 2019, 09:41:51 PM
Arne:  I ever never eaten, or for that matter even seen, fried pizza.  That being said, from the pictures and videos I have watched, your fried pizza looks very authentic. 

I know enough Italian to eat and drink but reading and understanding a cook book in Italian would certainly be a challenge!!  I will be looking very forward to the "book report"!

Like Greg exclaimed, your experiments and thorough reporting are most fascinating!!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on December 19, 2019, 12:40:36 PM
Thanks Scott. I will definitely report back on that book. Hope it arrives soon...

Christmas time means mostly "traditional" food here, but I'm going to try squeezing in a pizza dinner between Christmas and New year. :)


Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Lil Ralphie on December 20, 2019, 08:12:25 PM
Just starting page 7 on this great thread very informative I have a forno bravo wood fired oven hope to be up to speed pg 33 in a few days
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Lil Ralphie on December 22, 2019, 01:52:15 PM
Regarding reply 236 Marvelous bravo :drool: :drool:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on December 25, 2019, 10:56:58 AM
Thanks, Lil Ralphie. I'm glad to hear you're enjoing this thread. :)

It's Christmas Day and we are hungry for some pizza. A very small batch this time: only two pies, as the kids wanted frozen pizza. :-D

Ingredients

Fermentation: 42 hours (26+16) at 17°C
Final rise: 1.9x

I was aiming to compensate for the extended fermentation time by using a stronger flour blend than last time and reducing the hydration to 65%. Perhaps this was a bit of an over compensation. I thought the tenderness was not quite there this time. For welder style, it seems very important to keep the hydration high for maximum pleasure.

Nevertheless, it was enjoyable and we got our "fix". :)

Edit: I did a few adjustments to the cooking setup this time. Instead of using a skillet on the stove, I used a pre-heated pizza stone instead. Since I am using the burner to cook the bottom anyway, I don't really need much heat on the buttom, just enough to set the bottom partially so that I can gently lift it with a spatula and torch the under side. Also, I placed the stone on top of a rotating plate, making it very easy to access all sides of the pie.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on January 02, 2020, 11:57:16 AM
I will be looking very forward to the "book report"!

I've just posted a short review in the Cookbook Reviews section (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=60334.0).

Three important factors to succeed with fried pizza according to the book:

A number of different temperature ranges are given, but it seems that the proper cooking temperature for pizza is deemed to be around 190°C. It also cautions against too low a temperature. This information is very much in line with what I experienced when I fried pizza a little while back.

The book contains two different dough recipes; one for montanara and one for the classic pizza fritta ("filled fried pizza").
The ingredients and ratios are the same:

What differs is the process after the mix:
Montanara: Cover & rest 30 minutes. Then make 50 gram balls. Cover & rest 10 hours at 18-22°C
Filled pizza: Cover & rest 6-8 hours at 18-22°C. Then make 150 gram balls. Cover & rest 2 hours.

As you can see, the total fermentation times and temperatures are about the same, but the bulk-to-ball time ratios differ. Enzo gives no explanation for these differences. Perhaps the shorter time in ball for stuffed fried pizza is to give it a bit more flexibility and strength to handle the filling...?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on January 02, 2020, 02:24:56 PM
I think you are right.  Since the filled pizza has to hold much more filling, the dough probably needs to be more tenacious.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on January 03, 2020, 12:42:12 AM
Deliveries accepted, see StoneMeadow for directions, will await delivery, sounds somewhat safer than Welder Style, but perhaps only because a survivor wrote a book!


Good fun Arne, enjoy your New Year!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on January 07, 2020, 02:19:02 PM
I found an old newspaper in the attic today and was shocked when I got to the cartoons section.

I can picture the round of guests gathered, the host in his Caputo T shirt, oven in the background, wine poured, asbestos plates on the table as the Pizzaioli moves carefully from plate to plate nursing a blonde dough into a Neapolitan pizza . . . More leoparding sir? Cheese melt OK? So sorry about your tie! Be right back with a new canister!

You had this vision a long time ago it seems, Greg.

I am shocked! Do you do time travel?



Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on January 07, 2020, 07:58:33 PM
Very Well Done, you amaze me Arne!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on January 08, 2020, 09:55:46 PM
LoL!  That's hilarious!!!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on January 15, 2020, 02:04:11 PM
Making dinner for just myself today, I opted for a Scarpetta. It's been a while since I made one, it was a very welcome return.

The dough:

It fermented for 22.5 hours (11+11.5) at 22-23°C. The pluviometer showed 33.5 mm, or about 2.2x rise, when I started shaping the pie.

Ideally, I would have chosen shorter time in balls, and also I would have monitored the fermentation more closely. But seeing as I had to build the fermentation schedule around a work day (and a night), there was little flexibility this time.

The resulting dough was really weak and required almost no handling to become a flat disc. After transferring it to the stone and correcting as best I could, the shape still ended up a little more "blobby" than circular. Let's call it personality.

As for the eating experience, it was very good. The crust was very soft and light, and the cheese/tomato combo as good as ever. The Scarpetta is definitely one of my favorite pies.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: thezaman on January 15, 2020, 02:43:48 PM
Unbelievable!! How is the taste and texture
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on January 15, 2020, 04:00:29 PM
It looks great Arne!  You have definitely found a solution to an oven in hibernation!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: stefan on January 15, 2020, 04:54:41 PM
Beautiful as always Arne! Really love the very fine, small-dotted leoparding on these!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on January 15, 2020, 06:19:47 PM
Amazing!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on January 16, 2020, 11:26:13 AM
Unbelievable!! How is the taste and texture

The crust was soft and tender, it was "floppy" and there was no crispness.
The topping is very special and full of contrast. I only apply the cheese (mozzarella and cream of parmigiano) before cooking, so the base is a warm and "cheesy sweet". After cooking, I cut the pie and add spoons of tomato compote that has had time to cool to room temperature. The compote is both sweet and slighly acidic (from the addition of balsamic vinegar), so both the taste and the temperature contrasts and complements the cheese base. Finally, shavings of parmigiano adds just a little hint of "firmness" to an otherwise soft texture. The basil oil completes the picture and is also very pleasant on the nose.

If you have not tried it, it's highly recommended. If Caiazzo is too far, then try my clone recipe (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=52803.msg536662;topicseen#msg536662).  ;)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on January 16, 2020, 11:30:33 AM
It looks great Arne!  You have definitely found a solution to an oven in hibernation!

Hey Scott. Indeed, it's a fantastic tool.
Also, having found a regular use for it, beyond Crème brûlée and the occasional meringue pie, is a nice bonus.  ;D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on January 16, 2020, 11:32:24 AM
Beautiful as always Arne! Really love the very fine, small-dotted leoparding on these!

Amazing!

Thank you both.

Next halloween, I'm going as a pizza robot!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Yael on January 16, 2020, 11:42:42 PM
Hahaha  ;D

When we desperately need a flame!! :'D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on January 16, 2020, 11:56:21 PM
Yikes! Another “Welder Style” Pizzaioli!
Best not tried after wine!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on January 18, 2020, 04:51:43 AM
Hahaha  ;D

When we desperately need a flame!! :'D
Hey Yeal, that looks really scary even to my eyes. :-D How did the pizza turn out?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Yael on January 18, 2020, 10:22:22 PM
Hey Yeal, that looks really scary even to my eyes. :-D How did the pizza turn out?

Actually I just tried a little, I stopped when I found the gas smell being too strong  :-D
Besides, I was afraid it would bake/burn the top while the bottom is not ready yet.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on February 12, 2020, 11:02:56 AM
Despite an unusually mild and wet winter, the wood fired oven is still under wraps. It won’t stay that way for long, I’m sure. But meanwhile I have attached a brand new propane canister firmly to my blowtorch, and today I made pizza again.

The recipe is one I’ve come to like for this style of pizza:

I let it ferment for 20 hours (14.5 in bulk, 5.5 in balls) at 20-21°C. From start to finish, the dough rose about 1.8x (pluviometer measurements ca 15-27).

The dough was on it’s best behavior, and I got to make two pies today.

The first one was a “Taleggio, funghi e salsiccia” á la Icelandr. It was delicious. I was not sure what to expect from the red bell pepper, but I was pleasantly surprised as it worked very well. Also, it contributed a very gentle char that was amazing. Perhaps it was the torch? I’m going to find out for sure, as soon as the WFO opens for the summer.

The second one: a margherita. This wonderful invention is still a huge favorite of mine.

I have to say, it really feels like cooking these up takes forever. My timer assures me it only took around 5 minutes a piece though.

As I finished the last bite, I thought I got a touch of propane on my palate. It could all be in my head.


Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on February 12, 2020, 01:29:42 PM
Beautiful as always!

Sometimes I wonder why you don't have a small electric or gas oven for inside use?

I'd love to have a real outside WFO, but it's not really practical. Where I live the weather is simply not good enough..

My electric oven has it's quirks but still makes an awesome pizza.  I've also cooked with gas fired ovens, and they are simply marvelous too, do really need some kind of exhaust though.  Still nothing compares to using a real WFO!  There is simply something magic making the fire, feeding it and heating up the oven, and then to bake pizza with it.  Nothing can really compare, still electric and gas also have their reason for being!

And yes a Margherita with good tomato and basil is simply a magic pizza, especially so when cooked at Neapolitan temperatures.

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on February 13, 2020, 10:45:57 AM
Yes, sometimes I wonder myself. And I have been considering a few options. I do find "welder style" to be both fun and delicious, so perhaps that's one reason I haven't pulled the trigger on an Effeuno yet. :D

I agreen 100% with your WFO statement though. I am really (really!) looking forward to putting it to use again.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on February 13, 2020, 09:10:06 PM
Such nice looking pizza, who could believe it's not from a WFO!

The “Taleggio, funghi e salsiccia” á la Icelandr"  is definitely on my mind for this weekend if I can find some dry wood.  Our winter to is also strange.  7 inches of rain in the last 7 days with a little snow in between.

Happy welding!

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on February 16, 2020, 08:10:26 PM
You have elevated Welder Style to new Heights!
Having read the accounting of Tony Gemignani’s win in Naples years back, It is fun to picture the judges and crowd at the Margherita competition in Naples as you carry in your box of dough plus one other box. Under the eyes of the sceptical judges you open your dough with care and skill, then open the other box, whip out the torch and in a frenzy turn a raw dough into a fine Neapolitan . . . .  Winning and leaving alive would be tricky, dazzling would be easy!
Well Done - Give ‘em Hell Arne!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on March 08, 2020, 11:09:44 AM
Without a proper oven I may be losing it a bit, but here we go again with the torch.  :chef:

My go-to welder style recipe:

Fermentation time was 24 hours (19 + 5) at 19-20°C. From start to finish, the dough rose about 1.7x (pluviometer measurements ca 15-26).

Margherita today.

PRECIOUS!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on March 08, 2020, 11:37:34 AM
Arne my friend, call me, we need to talk.
Oh, there is nothing wrong with really getting IN to your pizzamaking, but you need to get out more, get away from the butane fumes for a while, see some real people, maybe relax over a glass of wine. I understand the rituals involved in making Neapolitan pizza with a torch, but I am afraid you have lost it now. Making fresh Neapolitan then fast freezing it just isn’t wise. Reach out, I am sure you can find some help.


OK, fantastic picture and well done! Good Fun!
You just never know when images for T shirts turn up!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on March 08, 2020, 04:10:20 PM
Thanks Greg. I don't know what came over me. Feeling better now. Think I'll call in sick tomorrow, just in case...
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on March 08, 2020, 10:12:00 PM
Arne, I think the cold is taking a toll on you.  It’s best you leave right away for a Holiday in a warmer climate! :-D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Yael on March 09, 2020, 02:32:36 AM
 :-D :-D :-D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on March 10, 2020, 11:01:26 AM
Arne, I think the cold is taking a toll on you.  It’s best you leave right away for a Holiday in a warmer climate! :-D
:-D yeah I wish...
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on March 11, 2020, 12:34:50 AM
Upgrade, always there is an upgrade. You may want to put aside your chosen winter attire, oh, sorry replace it, so you can upgrade your oven substitute . . .just until the Spring Thaw and after your welder style Therapy sessions.


https://www.cnet.com/news/grillgun-gas-torch-lights-up-your-grill-in-seconds/ (https://www.cnet.com/news/grillgun-gas-torch-lights-up-your-grill-in-seconds/)






Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Stein Erik on March 27, 2020, 04:32:14 AM
I'm new here at this forum. Have been on different Facebook groups so far, but being here is at a completely different level.

My goal is to make a pizza as close as possible to a Da Michele pizza. And its hard. But I have read every single post in this thread and have learned a lot. Will try to make pizza based on the advice her next time, hopefully I can make it in my wood fired oven.

Thank you Arne for sharing your knowledge and results here.  :chef:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on March 28, 2020, 07:06:26 AM
I'm new here at this forum. Have been on different Facebook groups so far, but being here is at a completely different level.

My goal is to make a pizza as close as possible to a Da Michele pizza. And its hard. But I have read every single post in this thread and have learned a lot. Will try to make pizza based on the advice her next time, hopefully I can make it in my wood fired oven.

Thank you Arne for sharing your knowledge and results here.  :chef:
Welcome to the board, Stein Erik. Fun to see a fellow countryman. In fact there are actually a few of us here now. Hope you find as much inspiration, information and companionship here that I have.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on March 29, 2020, 05:54:17 AM
Spring time has officially arrived. Yes, there are sub-zero night temperatures and daytime temperatures are around 4 degrees C, but the weather is good and we are nearing April. So, I have unpacked the oven and warmed it up slowly over a week. Yesterday for lunch, finally, I made pizza in the WFO again.

My shipment of Caputo flour from my usual supplier seemed uncertain, but I found Petra 5063 "Special" at my go-to Italian store in Oslo and decided to give it a try. The specs look quite similar to Caputo Pizzeria, and searching the Internet for comments and reviews gave me the same impression. I decided to play it safe and opted for a dough of moderate hydration fermented at room temperature for less than 24 hours:


Fermented at 22°C for 21 hours (14 in bulk, 7 in balls). The rain meter rose from around 15 mm to 31 mm, i.e. just about 2x rise, or a doubling in volume.

When making the dough, it did feel and handle a lot like Caputo Pizzeria.
After bulk, however, I though it presented as a bit weaker than a similar Pizzeria dough would under similar conditions. It also was more sticky than I am used to, but not too much.
I decided to ball them extra tight, just in case.

When it was time to cook them, I was surprised to see that the balls had collapsed to pancakes. I did not expect this to happen in just 7 hours for this dough, and like I said I also took care to build as much strength into the balls as I could. I'm including a photo of the pancakes below (flour was added for extraction purposes, almost forgot to snap a photo).

The resulting pizza was amazing, however. Really soft and light, and super tender. For some unknown reason, it seemed to lack a little salt. Not sure why this is, the salt percentage has been fixed for a long time now. We speculated that perhaps different flours accentuate salt differently. But nevermind, it tasted just heavenly.
After a winter of blowtorch pizza (which I still think tastes very good), it was a huge eye opener to taste "the real deal" again. Both the scent of it and the flavor of it, just so much more rich and complex than the comparatively "sterile" blowtorch pizza.

My Ischia culture seems to grow stronger every day, so next time I'm hoping I can use sourdough instead of CY (which in these days is also quite difficult to get a hold of as our yeast producers are struggling to meet demand).

A simple margherita with fiordilatte below. Few photos were taken in all the excitement.  :chef:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on March 29, 2020, 07:32:43 AM
Hey Arne!

Good to see you in action again!

I've heard very good things about Petra flour from my Italian friends, it seems a lot of people are happy with their products.  Your panetti do indeed look over fermented/collapsed, which is somewhat of a pain to make pizza from, but normally makes very tasty pizza.  Though it looks like much more than doubling...

Could it be that you mismeasured the salt?  It might explain why it seemed to have less strength, fermented faster and seemed to lack salt taste wise?  I did the same yesterday but with the water.  I thought this dough came together too fast and seems too dry, so I pulled it out of the mixer and weighted it.  It seems likely that I measured 420g water instead of 470g, adding another 50g of water made the dough come out like I expected it.  If it was the salt I doubt that I would have caught it..
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on March 29, 2020, 09:22:01 AM
Jack, thanks for your comment. You make a good point, it is possible I made a mistake during salt measurement. It seems like an obvious explanation now that you pointed it out. :-D

I'll be sure to double check my measurements next time.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Hanglow on March 29, 2020, 10:25:21 AM
Looking good Arne, I will be firing up my WFO tomorrow for the first time in a few months too :chef: Local bread flour is all that is available, so I am getting my excuses in early  :-D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on March 29, 2020, 10:42:29 AM
Looking good Arne, I will be firing up my WFO tomorrow for the first time in a few months too :chef: Local bread flour is all that is available, so I am getting my excuses in early  :-D

Thanks and wishing you all the best with the first bake of the season.  :chef:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on March 29, 2020, 01:30:34 PM
Welcome back Arne and Hanglow!  So good to see you guys back in action!!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Stein Erik on April 01, 2020, 04:06:30 AM
Welcome to the board, Stein Erik. Fun to see a fellow countryman. In fact there are actually a few of us here now. Hope you find as much inspiration, information and companionship here that I have.

Thank you! I've found a lot of inspiration here already. I've had my WFO for years so I've made lots of pizzas. But my approach so far has been quite random. During the last months, I've read a lot about fermentation and hydration and I've tried with 50h fermentation and almost 70 % hydration. The results have been an airy, crispy and chewy pizza. Not what I'm looking for. So now I'm going to make a pizza this weekend with my Caputo Pizzeria flour and go for 24 hours and 63% hydration. My end goal is to be able to make quite consistent results as close as possible to the pizza I've eaten in Naples.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 05, 2020, 02:16:32 PM
My Ischia starter has been looking nice and healthy for about a week now, going wild after each daily feeding. It was time to make pizza with it!

I went with a similar recipe as my previous bake: 100% Petra 5063, 65% water, 2.9% salt, 4.2% SD for a predicted fermentation of 22 hours (14+8) at 21°C.

When I balled up the dough, I noticed it was a bit weak, just as I remarked last time. But no matter, I knew I had the salt amount correct this time, having double checked my measurements.

4 hours later, I see no rise. And the dough has collapsed completely. Not pancakes this time, but rather a puddle of wet, salty flour.

Just for fun I left the dough in the pluviometer. After the prescribed 22 hours it has risen some 10%.

Guess the culture was not ready after all.

Made pasta for dinner. :D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on April 05, 2020, 03:15:03 PM
Ouch . . . Would you like some chewy pizza?
Looking forward to the re-awakening of the starter, perhaps with the right attire and incantations You can get it to rise . . . .
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on April 05, 2020, 04:18:21 PM
I feel with you!

It's annoying to make dough that doesn't work like it's supposed to!

I also made pasta tonight.  Home made fettuccine alfredo (not due to dough failure though).
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on April 05, 2020, 05:45:19 PM
Pasta is always good!! :chef:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 07, 2020, 01:13:36 AM
Thanks for the encouragement, friends. Making pasta was therapeutic, and seeing as I am working from home these days, I was able to try again the following day.

This time I thought I'd play it safe and go with IDY. Also, hydration was reduced to 63% to counter the pancake effect. The first thing I did waking up was preparing the dough as follows:

Planned fermentation was at 22°C for 10 hours.

Consumed by work I forgot about all my dough, however. When I after 7.5 hours rushed down to ball it, I found it had not grown at all! What gives? After forming the balls, I placed them in a warm room, about 26°C, to give it a fighting chance and mumbled some incantations for good measure.

A little more than 4 hours later, we were all starving and I simply could not wait any longer. At this point the volume expansion of the dough was merely 35% (20mm in the pluviometer). Not a good sign, but at least there'll be pizza.

After just 4 hours in balls, obviously under fermented and at only 63% hydration, I was expecting quite a bit of resistance when shaping these. But that was not the case. On the contrary, the balls had already collapsed into soft pancakes (see photo attached). They actually had a little more resistance to them than I expected from the looks of them, and working them into the appropriate shape was a breeze. In fact they felt pretty good.

The oven spring was overwhelming. With this little dough expansion prior to baking, I would normally expect a flat dense pie. This was far from it. The cornicione blew up like a champ after spending about a minute or so in the blazingly hot oven.

We made it easy on ourselves and went with just the classics: Margherita and marinara. It was good and we all ate more than we had to. With no guests to entertain, a couple of leftovers pies went into the freezer.

This is the fourth dough I've made with Petra 5063. Some things I've noted and which I'll be keeping an eye on going forward:

A few photos below.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: tkmcmichael on April 07, 2020, 08:56:22 AM
Great looking pizzas.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on April 07, 2020, 09:40:39 AM
Wonderful looking Pizza Arne! Such fantastic light as well On family and pizza, looks a low strong sun! I can see with the family waiting the pressure is on, they had to be pleased with supper tonight! A great start to a long successful season, take care and enjoy.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 07, 2020, 03:48:48 PM
Thank you both! Yes we had wonderful weather. A bit chilly perhaps (for those who don't operate the oven at least), but we could stay outside and have our first outdoor pizza session of the year, which was awesome.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: schold on April 07, 2020, 05:03:11 PM
Shorter time in balls has always given me better oven spring, but also more toughness in the cornicione. They look very nice. I like the way you cut the fior di latte.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: stefan on April 07, 2020, 06:48:10 PM
Wow! Cornices looking soo fluffy! Looks like a great session! Funny that I made similar experiences with IDY. Somewhat unpredictable .. but - no fresh yeast in Germany at the moment, so we have to take what we get, right? :D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Yael on April 07, 2020, 08:25:52 PM
 :drool: :drool: :drool:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: scott r on April 07, 2020, 11:33:20 PM
really nice looking pies!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 08, 2020, 07:44:18 AM
Wow! Cornices looking soo fluffy! Looks like a great session! Funny that I made similar experiences with IDY. Somewhat unpredictable .. but - no fresh yeast in Germany at the moment, so we have to take what we get, right? :D

Thanks.  :) Yes, IDY has always been flaky in my hands. CY is hard to get by here, too. I'll just keep feeding my starter and hope it regains its strength soon.  :chef:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 08, 2020, 07:47:36 AM
Shorter time in balls has always given me better oven spring, but also more toughness in the cornicione. They look very nice. I like the way you cut the fior di latte.

Thanks, Schold. That is an interesting observation about shorter time in balls correlating with better oven spring. I must admit that just as I had finished writing my bullet point saying Petra gives great oven spring, I almost deleted it again, as it is almost certainly too early to draw such conclusions. 
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on April 08, 2020, 11:17:36 AM
It looks a little chilly but pleasant enough to make pizza in the sun Arne!  The family all looks happy to be outside having fun around the oven.  And, who is that guy looking over your wife's shoulder?  :-D 

I liked the picture of the pizza on the peel before going in the oven.  What are your dough ball weights?  How many cm is the pizza across in the picture?

We are all happy to see your oven open for business!!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 08, 2020, 01:42:21 PM


It looks a little chilly but pleasant enough to make pizza in the sun Arne!  The family all looks happy to be outside having fun around the oven.  And, who is that guy looking over your wife's shoulder?  :-D 

I liked the picture of the pizza on the peel before going in the oven.  What are your dough ball weights?  How many cm is the pizza across in the picture?

We are all happy to see your oven open for business!!

Scott, thanks for the thumbs up. Haha yeah you noticed "Bittelilleline", my younger son's tiny friend, looking out from the doorway. She's too big for his bed but has a reserved spot on the floor next to it.

The dough balls are 260 grams and are stretched to 30 cm/12 inches. The width of that wooden peel is 33.5 cm iirc.


Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 09, 2020, 05:20:55 PM
Easter time and lamb is on the menu, but on the spur of the moment I was compelled to finally try my hands at biga. Ever since Alex (DoouBall) first posted his results last July (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=58510.0), I’ve been wanting to give it a go. I did not get around to it last year, unfortunately. But now, having time on my hands and seeing a lot of interesting biga related activity on this forum, it seemed like a good time to give it a shot.

Inspired by a suggestion recently made by Peter (Pete_da_Bayer) (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41907.msg613867#msg613867), I was planning to ease into this by using my normal yeast calculations and making a biga from a certain percentage of the flour that I would normally use. But when I managed to source some fresh yeast, I changed my mind for some reason and decided to give the MasterBiga app a try instead.

(I was serious when I said lamb is on the menu, so this would be strictly an experiment. The purpose of this bake is basically to gain some experience with making biga and using biga for pizza.)

One thing that sticks out to me from the various reports about the use of biga, besides giving an improved flavor over straight dough made from yeast, is that it can result in a very pronounced cornicione. Having watched a few biga videos online, where the dough balls are much larger than my typical 260 grams, I was curious to see how the dough ball size would affect the outcome.

To test this, I made one dough, and from this dough I made balls of three different sizes: 260 grams (my normal), 300 grams and 330 grams.

With the aid of the MasterBig app, the plan was as follows:

Biga
Fermentation: 16 hours at 21.7°C.

Rinfresco
Fermentation: 5 hours at 21.7°C.

Final dough
The resulting dough is at 66% hydration using 33% biga and a heck of a lot of yeast, compared to my usual routine.

Making the biga was fun and easy. I did it by hand and it took maybe 5 minutes, following the procedures suggested by helpful members in recent messages of other threads here.

Making the dough was easy too. I did what Jack (Amolapizza) suggested in Greg’s (Icelandr) thread: I tore the biga in smaller pieces directly into the flour and let the Kenwood mix it together. Then I added about 2/3 of the water in one go, let it absorb and then added the remainder in 4 or 5 additions. Salt was added about 4 minutes before the end of my mix. In total, the dough was on the hook for 11 minutes. Then I dumped in on the counter and did some stretching and folding until the dough looked right.

I balled the dough after 2.5 hours (the plan was 30 minutes, but…). The pluviometer accelerated real quick to a speed I’ve never seen before, and after a total of 5 hours it showed 2.3x rise (35mm)… And it kept zooming away almost as I watched.

Shaping
I started with the 260 gram balls. The dough was nice and soft but perhaps a little bit more elastic than normal. When stretched to my typical 30 cm, I noticed a significant diameter shrinkage in the oven. The cornicione, however, grew bigger than normal, and maybe this is part of the explanation.

Moving on the the 300 gram balls, it seemed the resulting pie radius was closer to normal, all the while with a significant cornicione.

The 330 gram ball felt huge, and it developed a thicker base than I’m used to, even if I stretched it a bit larger than usual. This was very much appreciated by one of the members of my tasting panel, depicted below. In my own personal view, it was a bit thicker than I would prefer.

Baking
As per the advice on this board, I baked these a little cooler (less hot) than usual. The deck temperatures were around 350°C (vs usually around 450°C) and wall/dome temps were 480°C (vs typically 540°C). Thus they spent longer time in the oven, from 90 to 120 seconds (normally from 40 to be 70 seconds). Looking back I guess they could use maybe even a little more time in there, but the bake was acceptable I think. As expected, the crust was slightly more crisp/crunchy than usual. In addition, there was a little extra chew to it. Not too much, but more than I would prefer. I’m guessing more experience could remedy this.

The flavour of the crust was very good. I only made marinaras, but I enjoyed them quite a bit.

Final thoughts
This was a fun experience. I can’t say I like this better than pizza from straight dough (and surely not better than SD based dough), but on the other hand I really do enjoy the appearance of a Neapolitan pie with a huge fluffy soft cornicione. Perhaps with experience I might even improve to the point where I prefer the flavour and texture of the biga pizza. I will absolutely give this another go soon anyway.

Photo documentation attached.

Edit: Flour specification added
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on April 09, 2020, 05:33:45 PM
Very nice!

Thanks for making the experiment!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on April 09, 2020, 05:43:09 PM
Excellent testing and reporting Arne!  Thanks for that.  How long did the dough rest in balls before cooking?

You son looks like he thoroughly enjoyed the outcome!!  :drool:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 09, 2020, 06:08:30 PM
Excellent testing and reporting Arne!  Thanks for that.  How long did the dough rest in balls before cooking?

You son looks like he thoroughly enjoyed the outcome!!  :drool:

Scott, the dough rested in balls for 2.5 hours (after 2.5 hours in bulk).

Yes he did enjoy it and said I have to make 330 gram pizza for him from now on...  :o  :-D

Edit: Now that you ask, I find that recommendations for time in bulk and time in balls when using biga are hard to pin down. The MasterBiga app is pretty specific about the biga fase but after that I feel I'm on my own. My timings were pretty random. I found some advice that said to keep it in bulk only for a short while (source: forgotten) and that's where my 30 minute goal came from. My decision to cook the pies after 5 hours of total fermentation were more dictated by the speed by which the dough expanded than anything else. I don't normally use the fridge, but perhaps refredgeration might be a good option to prevent that crazy fast expansion I witnessed in this case.

More testing needed.  :-D

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on April 09, 2020, 09:12:12 PM
Arne:  You and Greg both reported you felt the cooking time was moved forward based on speed of expansion and measurements from the pluvometer.  However, Greg felt the dough was a little stiff and did not stretch as easily as his IDY while you reported no issues but oven shrinkage from your normal 30cm.

I would submit that I find the Biga dough expands more than my regular SD but is simply more airy than my regular SD.  Meaning the pluvometer may indicate more expansion but it is all air and compresses easily when you stretch the dough.  In fact, my findings are like Greg's.  The dough which expanded a lot, pushes down easily and is still a bit stiff and does not want to stretch out to 30cm.  It will take a bit more experimentation but I am thinking shorter time in bulk and longer time in balls.  Perhaps those more experienced in Biga can comment.

Thoughts?

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 10, 2020, 01:26:38 AM
Arne:  You and Greg both reported you felt the cooking time was moved forward based on speed of expansion and measurements from the pluvometer.  However, Greg felt the dough was a little stiff and did not stretch as easily as his IDY while you reported no issues but oven shrinkage from your normal 30cm.

I would submit that I find the Biga dough expands more than my regular SD but is simply more airy than my regular SD.  Meaning the pluvometer may indicate more expansion but it is all air and compresses easily when you stretch the dough.  In fact, my findings are like Greg's.  The dough which expanded a lot, pushes down easily and is still a bit stiff and does not want to stretch out to 30cm.  It will take a bit more experimentation but I am thinking shorter time in bulk and longer time in balls.  Perhaps those more experienced in Biga can comment.

Thoughts?

About my final dough: While it was very soft and workable, I did experience a bit more elasticity than normal. By that I mean the discs "pulled back" a bit, even before going into the oven. This was not a huge issue but required me to tug the edges after dragging it to the peel, just to get the proper size. This is something I experience when the dough balls are not relaxed enough, which could be the case here (2.5 hours is really short after all). I was actually expecting more elasticity given the time in balls. This elasticity is probably also a contributing factor to the oven shrinkage. (I can't help but think The Rise of the Cornicione also contributes to this, but realize that may just be my imagination.)

The expansion of the dough was very quick, and I agree this happens independently of the gluten degradation. So there may be an imbalance here, in that the gluten formed during dough production is not allowed enough time to break down properly (5 hours, again, that's really a very short time). But at the same time, the yeast has multiplied and is working like mad, leading to an explosive rise.

This is why I think perhaps using the fridge would have helped in my case: It would allow breaking down of gluten while keeping the yeast in check. Another option might be to use less yeast, but I was following The Way of the MasterBiga and did not want to improvise too much.

Edit: Allowing more time to break down the gluten might even reduce or eliminate the extra chew.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on April 10, 2020, 06:08:47 AM
I've also noticed that a biga ferments the dough very fast.  If the dough grows too quickly maybe the solution is less biga, rather than reducing the yeast used in the biga.

To me an apretto of 2.5 hours seems very short, I'd say a minimum of 4 hours is needed for the balls to relax.  Possibly adopting a more gentle way of making the balls less tight might also help.

I'm not sure I understand the reason for using a lower oven temperature and a longer cooking period?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 10, 2020, 06:39:10 AM
I'm not sure I understand the reason for using a lower oven temperature and a longer cooking period?

Good question. This is just what I have picked up when researching biga based doughs. For example, DoouBall says in the thread I cited above that "a lower temperature is used to avoid an overly chewy, rubbery texture". Vincenzo Iannucci says something similar in the video below, though less succintly. Exactly why this is has not been explained in detail, but I am guessing it may have to do with the strength of the flour used in the biga, or perhaps it could be related to the thickness of the cornicione.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34E6nbPv7Fo
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on April 10, 2020, 08:08:48 AM
I notice that he used way less yeast for the biga, than one would do for instance for a Giorilli biga.  He also developed far more gluten making the biga, it's way more mixed that what I've learnt to do.  He also uses way longer maturation for the main dough even though adding extra yeast.

On the oven temperature he says to use a lower temperature for both a direct and an indirect dough.  I think this is probably a personal preference, still a very soft looking pizza for the temperature.  Though what temperature does he refer to, the air, the deck, the dome?

IIRC, Enco Coccia also recommends something like 420-430C for a properly cooked Napolitana, though I think this is probably a polemic statement that could lead to some fierce discussions :)  I also note on a personal level that 450C on the deck in my electric oven is not the same as in a big gas oven.  I wonder if that doesn't hold true for most ovens in as much as one can't just say that 425C is universally the best, and it will depend on the individual oven and how it's heated..

IMO chewiness comes in two flavors. If it's chewy when it's warm, it comes from the gluten being too strong.  If gets chewy as it cools off, then I think it's from not having evaporated enough water during the baking.

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Pete_da_Bayer on April 10, 2020, 09:11:22 AM
Great looking Marinaras and a spectacular crumb, Arne! Nuvola super does help a little bit, but still you did a pretty good job with your first biga dough. Wish mine would always look like that:)
I think it helps for elasticity if you use higher hydrations. Most biga-related videos i`ve seen from Salvatore Lioniello, Roberto Susta, etc. use 70% - over 80%. This might also be the reason, why longer baking times at lower temperature is recommended. Sometimes also malt is used in biga-doughs to prevent chewiness.
I like using the fridge, especially with biga doughs. With your dough parameters, i would have let it started in bulk for 1-2 hrs @ rt and put it in the fridge. The following day, balling and rising for 5-6hrs @ rt. I think Pizzapp is very helpful as well. It starts, where masterbiga ends. So you could use that for your final dough. But who am i to tell you this? I think i can learn more from you than vice versa when i look at your pizza. Stay safe and Happy Easter!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 10, 2020, 12:57:31 PM
IMO chewiness comes in two flavors. If it's chewy when it's warm, it comes from the gluten being too strong.  If gets chewy as it cools off, then I think it's from not having evaporated enough water during the baking.

Good insight. I'll keep this in mind.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 10, 2020, 01:03:06 PM
Great looking Marinaras and a spectacular crumb, Arne! Nuvola super does help a little bit, but still you did a pretty good job with your first biga dough. Wish mine would always look like that:)
I think it helps for elasticity if you use higher hydrations. Most biga-related videos i`ve seen from Salvatore Lioniello, Roberto Susta, etc. use 70% - over 80%. This might also be the reason, why longer baking times at lower temperatur is recommended. Somtimes also malt is used in biga-doughs to prevent chewiness.
I like using the fridge, especially with biga doughs. With your dough parameters, i would have let it started in bulk for 1-2 hrs @ rt and put it in the fridge. The following day, balling and rising for 5-6hrs @ rt. I think Pizzapp is very helpful as well. It starts, where masterbiga ends. So you could use that for your final dough. But who am i to tell you this? I think i can learn more from you than vice versa when i look at your pizza. Stay safe and Happy Easter!

Peter, thanks for your too kind words and a great number of useful tips.

I will follow your suggestion and use the fridge for maturation next time. This makes a lot of sense to me, so I'll start there.

Now, to check out Pizzapp. Happy Yeaster and stay safe you too!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on April 10, 2020, 06:30:34 PM
I think Pizzapp is very helpful as well. It starts, where masterbiga ends. So you could use that for your final dough.

Hi Pete:  I'm curious about where you think Pizzapp starts where MasterBiga ends.  I took a look using my typical formula and process and don't really see that.  Let me know what I might be missing.

Scott K.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 16, 2020, 08:59:12 AM
After my first encounter with biga, my biggest complaint was that the pies were too chewy and lacking in "digestibility". Incorporating a longer maturation step would probably help with this. Due to the extreme leavening observed when using commonly cited quantities for yeast and biga (which I want to keep doing for now), it seems pretty clear to me that this maturation step would need to involve the fridge.

To test this, I laid a plan as follows:

Dough:

Biga:

Maturation and fermentation:

Observations and comments:

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: stefan on April 16, 2020, 09:07:11 AM
Wow, these are pretty! Congratulations on your succeeded experiment! Nice to see that there‘s still so much to go into and to learn! After mastering my sourdough fermentation a little better, I think I‘m also going to experiment with biga again!

.. and ripping - still also happens to me many many times! I mostly enjoy the corniche with some EVOO then ;D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on April 16, 2020, 11:19:42 AM
Great Report Arne!  You have made me feel better in many ways!

#3 I also struggled with.
#4 I did not overcome the chew issue in fact my wife commented the crust was "to doughy".
#5  100% totally agree
#6  I made sure I opened the balls to the edge of my 12" peel and still got 10 1/2" pies from the oven.  Your confirmation of shrinkage makes me feel better about my opening skills which are far more modest than yours.
#7  I must keep practicing!

Do you feel 1% CY is the right amount?  How much do you feel that might equate to for Ischia SD?  Why did you do 1% relative to Biga flour and not total flour?

Your pizzas look great as always.  No need to rip yourself. 

Scott
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on April 16, 2020, 11:55:31 AM
Very nice pizza, well documented experiment, always a good read.


Not sure I am convinced of the pursuit though. As I look back at the first bake from your newly freed oven and a pizza from your previous bake, I believe, for me, I prefer the direct dough, in this case IDY. Your skills are obvious in both but I prefer the look of the direct dough. My reasons for trying Biga were an increased flavour and possible tenderness beyond what I was getting with direct dough. I don’t think I yet achieved that and it sounds like, while more successful, you found the same. The increased cornichone has never been my goal, I guess I am reluctant to give up that much valuable “real estate” on the pizza.
I wanted to do a side by side, direct vs Biga bake but realistically I would be throwing out a lot of pizza for the two of us, it is difficult enough to make 2 balls, 1 is just silly!


Here is a side by side of your pizzas, Biga and direct, cheeky of me I know, I may have chosen your last Margherita for comparison but . . .  .
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 16, 2020, 12:55:48 PM
.. and ripping - still also happens to me many many times! I mostly enjoy the corniche with some EVOO then ;D

Excellent idea!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 16, 2020, 01:13:38 PM
Do you feel 1% CY is the right amount?  How much do you feel that might equate to for Ischia SD?  Why did you do 1% relative to Biga flour and not total flour?

Being a complete biga newbie, I used the amount suggested by MasterBiga, which is 1% relative to the flour amount in the biga. I used temperature and timing suggestions from this app too. My thinking was that this would be a recipe that has worked well for many before me.

There is little doubt that the yeast amount in these biga doughs far exceed what I am used to from direct dough experience. I would be curious to see what happens if I made biga with the normal dose, as if doing a straight dough. My gut says it would under perform slightly, but that's just a guess. Perhaps I'll do a side-by-side one day and compare. :)

I don't understand the biga process well enough to suggest what SD amounts might be equivalent, Scott, I'm sorry. But you said "feel", and my feeling is that I would need 30-50% SD to get a similar rising power. If at all possible.  :-D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 16, 2020, 01:24:10 PM
Very nice pizza, well documented experiment, always a good read.


Not sure I am convinced of the pursuit though. As I look back at the first bake from your newly freed oven and a pizza from your previous bake, I believe, for me, I prefer the direct dough, in this case IDY. Your skills are obvious in both but I prefer the look of the direct dough. My reasons for trying Biga were an increased flavour and possible tenderness beyond what I was getting with direct dough. I don’t think I yet achieved that and it sounds like, while more successful, you found the same. The increased cornichone has never been my goal, I guess I am reluctant to give up that much valuable “real estate” on the pizza.
I wanted to do a side by side, direct vs Biga bake but realistically I would be throwing out a lot of pizza for the two of us, it is difficult enough to make 2 balls, 1 is just silly!


Here is a side by side of your pizzas, Biga and direct, cheeky of me I know, I may have chosen your last Margherita for comparison but . . .  .

Thanks, Greg. It's like you read my mind. I was just thinking along the same lines.

I am very much a fan of the "classic" neapolitan look. By that I mean a gentle and somewhat unassuming pie with a pronounced but restrained cornicione. To me, that is the golden standard.

(By the way, why did you not use my last Margherita in your side-by-side. It would be a much better illustration of your point  :-D )

Despite my preferences, I really do enjoy the biga experiments and will probably be making more this summer. Especially since the kids seemed to love it.


Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on April 16, 2020, 01:28:37 PM
I don't know if I've said this before.  But with the biga I learnt about (Giorilli) you leave it open to air to give it an aerobic environment.  This is to allow the yeast to multiply, and from my bread baking experience, boy do they ever multiply.

Once by mistake I closed it hermetically, and when I opened it, it had a totally different smell, it smelled of alcoholic fermentation.  Maybe this is something to try, and otherwise just use less biga!  At some point I guess you'll find the right balance between biga amount, temperature, and the amount of dough expansion you are looking for.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on April 16, 2020, 01:31:47 PM
Also considering the amount of yeast that goes into making the biga, is it really a wonder that the dough ferments very quickly when you ferment the final dough..?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 16, 2020, 01:40:54 PM

Also considering the amount of yeast that goes into making the biga, is it really a wonder that the dough ferments very quickly when you ferment the final dough..?
No, it's not a surprise that it ferments fast when using so much yeast. It's just me finding childish fun in observing just HOW fast it's fermenting. It's a completely different experience and I am easily excited by these little things. ;)

Edit: Oh, one thing I was surprised to see was the rise at fridge temps. Being unaccustomed to fridge temperatures, I was under the impression that there would be almost no rise at 4C. But there was! It could be described as slow, but to me it was faster than I'd imagined.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on April 16, 2020, 04:56:16 PM
I was excited to see biga in action too, couldn't believe my eyes! :D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Stein Erik on April 17, 2020, 11:42:44 AM
It's very interesting to read about your experiences with biga. But I'm left with one big question: What do biga do except for adding more yeast to the dough? You make a biga starter, that starter is left for 16 hours at 20 degrees C (more or less). What happens is that the yeast develops a lot. You get a lot of yeast. I've read the same on Modernist Cuisine that adding more yeast will do the same as making a biga.

I don't know, but I really don't understand what else the biga does besides adding more yeast to the dough.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: dragonspawn on April 18, 2020, 12:03:23 AM
Modernist Cuisine used 60% hydration for what they called biga not 40-50% which seems to be what the traditional biga is. And then they declared "we found no change in baking". Biga was created to strengthen the weak and low protein  flours of Italy for bread making. My reading shows that in an extremely stiff preferment the following happens - strengthening the gluten by the acids, reducing proteolysis activity due to LAB and enzymes not being as active at low hydration and you have kick ass flavor and smell as result. The strengthening effect is not as valuable if you already start with strong flours as the majority of US flour already are. And with my experiments - the flavor bonus even at 50% hydration is lower than 45% - for some reason the stiffer it is the more pronounced are the alcoholic compounds.

So to me it seems that Modernist Cuisine just made a mistake in their research. And of course a lot of knowledge is lost both in translation and in time. Italy is not the same country as 150 years ago, they have access to harder varieties of wheat and their flours are stronger.

I am making my first pizza with biga now. But for breadmaking - since my flours are on the weak side - the oven spring and rise I get is insane. And the dough keeps it shape - I have scored the boule almost in half and it didn't degas at all. My thought is that because there is more alcohol in the dough and it boils at lower point - also helps with pumping more vapors earlier in baking. And the biga itself helps with gas containing ability.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Stein Erik on April 18, 2020, 02:16:00 AM
Modernist Cuisine used 60% hydration for what they called biga not 40-50% which seems to be what the traditional biga is. And then they declared "we found no change in baking". Biga was created to strengthen the weak and low protein  flours of Italy for bread making. My reading shows that in an extremely stiff preferment the following happens - strengthening the gluten by the acids, reducing proteolysis activity due to LAB and enzymes not being as active at low hydration and you have kick ass flavor and smell as result. The strengthening effect is not as valuable if you already start with strong flours as the majority of US flour already are. And with my experiments - the flavor bonus even at 50% hydration is lower than 45% - for some reason the stiffer it is the more pronounced are the alcoholic compounds.

So to me it seems that Modernist Cuisine just made a mistake in their research. And of course a lot of knowledge is lost both in translation and in time. Italy is not the same country as 150 years ago, they have access to harder varieties of wheat and their flours are stronger.

I am making my first pizza with biga now. But for breadmaking - since my flours are on the weak side - the oven spring and rise I get is insane. And the dough keeps it shape - I have scored the boule almost in half and it didn't degas at all. My thought is that because there is more alcohol in the dough and it boils at lower point - also helps with pumping more vapors earlier in baking. And the biga itself helps with gas containing ability.

Thank you for a very informative answer. So biga give you more of the sour dough effects? But would not a long fermentation of the whole dough give the same results as using biga? I’m sorry if my questions are clueless, but I’ve been thinking a lot about this for a while. :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 18, 2020, 02:16:33 AM
I don't know if I've said this before.  But with the biga I learnt about (Giorilli) you leave it open to air to give it an aerobic environment.  This is to allow the yeast to multiply, and from my bread baking experience, boy do they ever multiply.

Once by mistake I closed it hermetically, and when I opened it, it had a totally different smell, it smelled of alcoholic fermentation.  Maybe this is something to try, and otherwise just use less biga!  At some point I guess you'll find the right balance between biga amount, temperature, and the amount of dough expansion you are looking for.
I remember you mentioning this. Making sure the biga gets air was something I focused on based on this advice, as well as others here and elsewhere who said the same thing. For my first round of biga, I used perforated cling film. In my last attempt I covered it with a damp cloth. Both ways seemed to work fine, the biga expanded nicely and smelled very good! :chef:

As with most things, there are conflicting advice of course. For example, In "L'impasto Perfetto, Pizza per Proffesione", Fabrizio Casucci advices to use "a cylindrical container with hermetic lid" ("un recipiente cilindrico con coperchio ermetico"). Also I see plastic containers with lids used a lot on YouTube. Examples include people such as Angelo Giannino, Salvatore Lioniello and Vito Iocapelli. They all seem to close the lid on their biga without taking special care or mentioning anything about the air supply. These plastic containers surely "leak" oxygen to some degree, but my point is just that they consider this sufficient and don't make any extra effort to insure good air flow etc.

I am probably going to try wrapping the biga in non-perforated cling film at some point too, like I normally do with my dough on bulk. Just because I am curious and I think it would educational to me. :chef:

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Irishboy on April 18, 2020, 08:00:10 PM
Thank you for a very informative answer. So biga give you more of the sour dough effects? But would not a long fermentation of the whole dough give the same results as using biga? I’m sorry if my questions are clueless, but I’ve been thinking a lot about this for a while. :)


The more a gluten ferments the more it gets broken down so basically you have fresher dough that is mixed later so the strength is more. So 25% bigga mix would be stronger than 75% from the way I look at it
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 19, 2020, 02:40:33 AM
- Welcome home, Arne.
- Home...?
- Yes, home..
- Uh... So where was I? Who are you?
- Lost. You got lost a little. But you found me. I am Salvatore, your sourdough. You are with me now.
- Wait... I remember now. I visited places. New places. Good places! And now I am home.
- Indeed. Welcome home, Arne.
- Thank you. Thank you so much!

...

He's still a little sleepy, so the dough did not get quite to where I wanted it before the bake got started. But joining forces with my good old friend Salvatore again was a wonderful experience.


Matured and fermented for 21 hours (14 in bulk, 7 in balls) at 21.7°C.

Pluviometer showed about 22 mm when I started opening the first pie, which translates to just over 1.4x volume expansion.

The dough was very workable. It baked all right. The taste was fantastic.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: stefan on April 19, 2020, 03:10:56 AM
Nice to see Salvatore - he seems to do some great work there :D nice pies, so beautiful! How do you maintain Salvatore over his free time?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 19, 2020, 03:59:22 AM
Thank you Stefan! Salvatore is hanging around my kitchen table and is fed twice a day with a 50/50 mix of water and flour.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: SAUZER.ITALY on April 19, 2020, 04:17:33 AM
WOW !! Very good ! the margherita is spectacular!  ^^^ perfect baking and dough! Bravo .
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 19, 2020, 05:03:12 AM
Grazie mille, Renato! :chef:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Pete_da_Bayer on April 19, 2020, 05:33:40 AM
  Doesn´t get better than this! Amazing looking pies. ^^^
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on April 19, 2020, 07:37:52 AM
Spectacular!  :drool:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on April 19, 2020, 08:44:12 AM
Nice to see those beautiful SD pizzas Arne.  The flavor can't be beat!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on April 19, 2020, 09:30:00 AM
Arne you and your friend Salvatore obviously work well together, wonderful pizza . . . .best not tell him of your brief affair with Mr Blowtorch . . . .
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 19, 2020, 10:41:32 AM
Peter, Jack, Scott, Greg: Thanks you very much guys.

You said it, Scott: The flavor of sourdough just can't be beat! It is the most wonderful thing when it works out.

Greg, my hope is that perhaps Mr Blowtorch and Salvatore could be friends too one day...
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: fexxi on April 19, 2020, 02:43:04 PM
Looking very good! Btw: you're not the only one who's able to rip a pie every once in a while...
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: stefan on April 20, 2020, 04:07:18 AM
Arne, do you cook your salsiccia before putting in on the pizza? I think the cooking time in the oven might not be enough to cook it through, or am I wrong?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 20, 2020, 04:19:11 AM
Arne, do you cook your salsiccia before putting in on the pizza? I think the cooking time in the oven might not be enough to cook it through, or am I wrong?

Yes I cook it briefly in a skillet in advance, just to be safe.

I have tried putting it on raw and that usually works, depending on how much I tear off for each piece. Since the size I've come to prefer can tolerate a brief pre-cooking and still come out nice and juicy, that's what I've ended up doing.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on April 21, 2020, 08:26:07 PM
Does Salvatore In his youth hail from Sourdo.com?
OK, I am looking, always Considered it Like adopting a pet, but Sharon just questioned what else I had pressing at the moment, I am not generally stuck for words, but . . . .  .
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on April 21, 2020, 09:12:46 PM
Do it Greg!  Do it!!   :-D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 22, 2020, 08:26:15 AM
Does Salvatore In his youth hail from Sourdo.com?
OK, I am looking, always Considered it Like adopting a pet, but Sharon just questioned what else I had pressing at the moment, I am not generally stuck for words, but . . . .  .

Right on, Greg. Salvatore has his roots in Ischai but came to me from Sourdo.com (along with a distant cousin from a different part of Italy).

It is indeed like a pet: You'll quickly learn to love him.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on April 22, 2020, 09:55:08 AM
Thank you Arne. Regrettably the Italian cultures are out of stock and have been for a few weeks, I will try again . .  Then the questions will start!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 26, 2020, 02:14:00 AM
L'ardita Pizzeria Da Jervell serves only two types of pizza: Margherita and Marinara.

After an arduous day of moving furniture, we thought a stop at this simple little pizzeria in the middle of nowhere would be just right for us. After all, this was promised to be one of the last sunny days in a long while as rain and cool weather is poised to dominate for the coming 7-10 days.

As it turned out, today's special was kind of interesting: Guests could choose between a biga based and a sourdough based crust.

This should be fun. We all ordered two pizzas each, one made with sourdough and one made from biga. We decided to have a little fun and see if we could tell the difference between them, so we instructed the staff not to reveal to us which was which.

I have watched a lot of pizza on YouTube and Instagram, so I felt pretty certain I would be able to spot the difference easily. The biga pizza would certainly have a crust that looked like a dinghy. That's what I expected. So when my pizza arrived I thought they had made a mistake because my two margheritas looked indistinguishable from each other.

I wanted to call on a waiter to explain the problem, but there were no waiters here (!) so I ran over to the pizza maker guy, one pizza in each hand, and asked him to explain this to me. He calmly advised me to have a bite or two, see if I could taste a difference and then report back. I have to hand it to him, that was a clever idea.

Back at my table, I tasted them both. So yeah, they were different. Big deal. One was delicious, the other was slightly more delicious. No need for all the fuzz.

Even my kids agreed: One preferred one, the other preferred the other. Which is always the case with these two anyway.

Conclusion: We liked the pizza, and we may return one day. But it would have to be sunny, because this establishment does not have a roof or even a parasol!

PS: I asked the pizza maker guy about the inflation of the pizza crust. What he told me blew my mind: Biga does not have to imply a huge fluffy rim around the middle part. He said that, indeed, the biga was made with "strong cloud flour" (whatever that is) and refreshed with "computer pizzeria flour" (his words), which is known to make "big hairy corn in chone". That sounded a bit like market buzz to me, but then he went on to explain that the Instagram photo I had pulled up on my phone could very well be made with a similar dough, but that the technique used to "open the dough" made all the difference. He had deliberately used the same technique on both of my pizzas and seemed genuinely excited when we explained that may have resulted in the remarkably similar visual appearances. According to him, he could see the difference. Maybe he could. He went on rambling about some technical differences and expected and unexpected outcome. I honestly was getting pretty bored with where this conversation was going, so I thanked him and left.

Anyway, that's what he said in case anyone's interested.

I took a picture of the food, attached below. I even include a snapshot of the pizza maker guy. Yeah he sure looks like a happy go lucky kind of guy. 
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Yael on April 26, 2020, 03:10:59 AM
It seems you suffer a little bit from... spizzophrenia!!!  ;D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Pete_da_Bayer on April 26, 2020, 04:07:15 AM
 ;D Good story and amazing looking pies! Bravissimo!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on April 26, 2020, 04:15:26 PM
I'm guessing #1 and #3 are Biga.  Perhaps if you run in to that pizza guy again you can ask him.   :-\

Tell him also all pizzas look great, nice color and just the right amount of leoparding.  The one served along with a glass of wine would have to be my favorite though!  :-D



 
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: stefan on April 26, 2020, 06:11:50 PM
Spettacolare, Arne! Sounds like an interesting chat with the pizzaiolo! And the pies look great also! :-D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on April 26, 2020, 11:34:43 PM
Arne, thank you for your Travel Blog, you certainly find quiet out of the way places. I think this proprietor has a similar resemblance to a fellow in a loin cloth during the winter break, be careful it could be a scam, given the poor fellows budget for proper attire for serving tables . . . There were tables?

He certainly did a fine job with the heat and serve pizza, a nice touch asking you to determine the differences, a common tactic with travelling Pizzaioli, next thing you know they will be selling potions and innoculants to take  your pizza “ to the next level” with a winter package which includes a propane hand held pizza oven.

Oh, how I would love to carry on, who knew pizzamaking could be so much fun, Thank you Arne for your fabulous pizza and your sense of humour and creativity. We share a pursuit as all of us on Pizzamaking, the fun and  laughter is part of the community.

Nice Pizza, Nice Hairy Corn in Choné, I would go back to that establishment!
Title: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: DoouBall on April 27, 2020, 09:48:22 AM
Arne, “strong cloud flour” probably refers to Caputo Nuvola Super. Nuvola means cloud I believe, and I can confirm that biga pizzas with Nuvola Super have large holes in the edge.

My guess is that this pizzaiolo used a weaker flour for the biga and used Neapolitan slap for shaping all the pizzas. This would knock a lot of extra air out of the crust and make the biga and non biga crusts looks similar.

Cheers,

Alex
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on April 27, 2020, 11:21:53 AM
Were you able to extract from the cheerful owner what % he may have used for his Biga Pizza? I have dropped my yeast to 0.25% for the Biga and none in the main dough. I, too, am after flavour But don’t want the much larger cornichone.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: DoouBall on April 27, 2020, 11:26:34 AM
Were you able to extract from the cheerful owner what % he may have used for his Biga Pizza? I have dropped my yeast to 0.25% for the Biga and none in the main dough. I, too, am after flavour But don’t want the much larger cornichone.

Icelandr, if you drop your yeast to 0.25%, in strict terms, is wouldn't be biga anymore.

People use the term very loosely in the US, but in Italy, biga is a very well defined concept. The yeast, when using fresh is always 1%. Conversion to dry yeast is a bit less defined, but the idea is to achieve the same leavening power as 1% fresh yeast - I have seen between 0.4 to 0.66% dry yeast.

Using a standard amount of yeast gives very particular characteristics to the biga. If you drop to 0.25%, it is still a stiff preferment, but it's not a biga in Italian terms. Cheers,

Alex
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on April 27, 2020, 11:36:15 AM
Thanks Alex, good information, I will continue with my experiments with stiff preferments . . . . Even at my age!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 27, 2020, 12:14:26 PM
It seems you suffer a little bit from... spizzophrenia!!!  ;D

Yael, I don't know wh... Ooh, right. Looking back and then deep within, I guess you may be right in that I may be a touch spizzophrenic! :-D

;D Good story and amazing looking pies! Bravissimo!

Thanks, Peter! :chef:

I'm guessing #1 and #3 are Biga.  Perhaps if you run in to that pizza guy again you can ask him.   :-\

Tell him also all pizzas look great, nice color and just the right amount of leoparding.  The one served along with a glass of wine would have to be my favorite though!  :-D

Peter, the pizza guy said to thank you for the nice compliments. And then he cleverly added that you had it backwards. Not sure if he is just being a jerk, but he insists that #1 and #3 are the SD margheritas, and that #2 was from biga.

Your favorite, the one with the glass of wine, was supposedly also made from biga. The wine was really nice!


Spettacolare, Arne! Sounds like an interesting chat with the pizzaiolo! And the pies look great also! :-D

Thanks a bunch, Stefan. Interesting and fun it was. ;-)


Arne, “strong cloud flour” probably refers to Caputo Nuvola Super. Nuvola means cloud I believe, and I can confirm that biga pizzas with Nuvola Super have large holes in the edge.

My guess is that this pizzaiolo used a weaker flour for the biga and used Neapolitan slap for shaping all the pizzas. This would knock a lot of extra air out of the crust and make the biga and non biga crusts looks similar.

Hi Alex. You are right, I just got confirmation that he used the slapping technique on all of the pies. You are also correct that "strong cloud flour" was actually Caputo Nuvola Super, and this was used for the biga. Dude actually gave me his whole recipe, with lots of crazy details, see below.


Were you able to extract from the cheerful owner what % he may have used for his Biga Pizza? I have dropped my yeast to 0.25% for the Biga and none in the main dough. I, too, am after flavour But don’t want the much larger cornichone.

Greg, I just told Alex too, get this: I managed to get a hold of the full set of confusing details from some greasy paper sheets he handed to me when I asked about this. Here's what they say:

Biga dough
The biga:
487g Caputo Nuvola Super (100%)
214g Water (44% relative to biga flour weight)
4.87g CY (1% relative to biga flour weight)

Cover with perforated cling film and let ferment for 18 hours at 19°C.

The final dough:
1461g Caputo Pizzeria (100%)
706g Biga (25% by weight of flour)
1072g Water (66% when including the water in the biga)
56.5g Salt (2.9% relative to total flour weight)

Mature and ferment for 23 hours at 4°C.
Take out of fridge and rest at RT 2-3 hours before use.


SD dough
989g Petra 5063 (100%)
59g SD starter, a 50/50 mix of flour and water (6%)
612g Water (63%, taking into account weight of SD ingredients)
30g Salt (2.9%, taking into account flour in SD starter)

Mature and ferment for 22 hours at 20°C.

Open all pizzas using the best imitation of the neapolitan slappin technique that you can muster.

Edit: Attempted to make the recipe a bit more readable by rearranging the information slightly.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 27, 2020, 12:21:29 PM
Thanks Alex, good information, I will continue with my experiments with stiff preferments . . . . Even at my age!

 :-D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 27, 2020, 05:04:14 PM


I have dropped my yeast to 0.25% for the Biga and none in the main dough. I, too, am after flavour But don’t want the much larger cornichone.

I kept 1% CY in the biga (and nothing in the refresher) like before. What I did different this time was to reduce the biga percentage from 35% to 25%. I also reduced the time at RT to just 2 hours, barely enough to get them warmed up and ready for the blistering finale.

Paired with a slightly "less delicate" opening technique than I employed when I got the fat tires look a few sessions ago, I think this dough behaved fairly similar to my SD and direct doughs and I got a moderately sized cornicione.

However, I will say that there was still, comparably, some extra amount of air bubbles I had to chase both pre bake and inside the oven. Also, the previously noted oven shrinkage that I am attributing to the presence of biga was still detectable in the biga dough, albeit to a lesser degree. These are minor points that can I am sure can be addressed with a little experience.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on April 27, 2020, 09:37:44 PM
Somewhere in the last few exchanges there has been an opportunity for a new T-Shirt to be printed . . .. .
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: DoouBall on April 28, 2020, 11:35:21 AM
Arne, thanks for sharing the recipe - very interesting!

Cheers,

Alex
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 04, 2020, 09:33:57 AM
Yesterday I made pizza from three different doughs:

I have been flip-flopping a bit between low and high hydration, not sure which I prefer the most, so my original intent was to make yet another direct comparison and re-evaluate.

One of my reasons for my going back and forth between hydration levels may be the tradeoff between workability and tenderness. On the one hand, I really like working with 63% dough. It just feels right. And it makes me relax. The pizza comes out very fluffy and very tender too. I would almost say that between these 63% and 70% doughs, the lower hydration variant is the one that feels closest to the "typical" Neapolitan pizzeria pie.
On the other hand, the pies made from the 70% dough feel almost impossibly tender. I love that! But this is subjective, and in my household I guess I'm alone thinking this. Besides, it is clearly more challenging to deal with and more fragile during opening. And it cannot hold half a kilo of ingredients, like my sons demand.  ;D

On balance, I will have to keep flip-flopping I guess, occasionally meeting somewhere in the middle. 

The 9 day biga dough was just for fun, I had leftovers from last week that I had forgotten all about so I though I'd try baking it and see how it did. I extracted just one ball, noted that it was very slack and would probably not be able to carry much weight, so I just added som oil, salt and a sprinkle of rosemary. As evident from the photo below, I was not quite successful in shaping this one into a disk. It did puff up surprisingly well, however it actually felt a bit dense. The taste was not bad.



Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on May 04, 2020, 11:13:48 AM
Beautiful!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Roadrunner on May 04, 2020, 03:32:04 PM
Very nice. You have better luck that me in shaping a square dough into a round pie.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Yael on May 04, 2020, 08:14:15 PM
Thanks for sharing all your tests Arne! I'm sure it's very helpful for a lot of people!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on May 05, 2020, 12:26:50 AM
Damn Fine Pizza . . .oh, does that sound jealous? Just a bit!
Boy, when you guys come out of Hibernation, Look Out! Lock up the kids and the larder, they are ready to Bake!
Who, I ask, forgets 6 balls of dough for quite a few days! 6 balls is usually 3 weeks of cooking and eating Pizza for the two oldies, and one of us doesn’t eat the cornichone! Perhaps we could borrow a teen or pre- teen to help . .  . A half kilo of topping! We were all there once and if I get my Grandkids back here after the first lockdown, I am sure their appetites will have changed in the nearly 2 months since we have seen them!


Question . . .was there a difference between Amount of time in bulk vs ball . . . An age old question, but based on my extending Ball time last bake and having sticky dough at 66%, I have to ask.


Keep the experiments and baking coming, Gorgeous pizza . . . Disturbingly so . . .  .
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 05, 2020, 04:31:16 AM
Thanks a lot for the kind feedback all.  :chef:

Greg, both SD doughs spent 23 hours fermenting, but the 63% was balled for 8 hours while the 70% was balled for only 5. I like shorter time in balls for higher hydration doughs. They don't need as much time to relax anyway, and it helps a bit with the subsequent handling.

I believe it is possible that the sticky situation you found yourself in could be a consequence of longer ball time than usual.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: hotsawce on May 05, 2020, 11:15:32 AM
This is very interesting. I’m also sold on a 24h room temp fermentation, but debating hydration levels much like you are.

I like 62 to 63 because it feels right and you don’t need much bench flour. But I’m tempted to push upward - I know Ciro Salvo sits at 66 to 67%.

My question for you is this - do you notice a big difference in texture between 63% and 66%? If no, I’d likely stick around 63. If I proof on wood, the ability to use little bench flour is very appealing
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on May 05, 2020, 03:16:02 PM
I am mistaken in my impression that the higher hydration, the longer I have to bake it?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: pizapizza on May 05, 2020, 08:47:12 PM
that first dough looks like perfection!  :drool:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 06, 2020, 04:26:04 AM
This is very interesting. I’m also sold on a 24h room temp fermentation, but debating hydration levels much like you are.

I like 62 to 63 because it feels right and you don’t need much bench flour. But I’m tempted to push upward - I know Ciro Salvo sits at 66 to 67%.

My question for you is this - do you notice a big difference in texture between 63% and 66%? If no, I’d likely stick around 63. If I proof on wood, the ability to use little bench flour is very appealing

Based on my last test, I would at least say that there is a noticeable difference between 63% and 70%. Between 63% and 66% the difference is smaller, and maybe so small as to be insignificant. It really depends. Changes in technique, cooking temperature and other human factors play a very big role and may indeed render a 3% difference insignificant.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 06, 2020, 04:57:37 AM
I am mistaken in my impression that the higher hydration, the longer I have to bake it?

I cook my pies until they look ready, and then I pull them out. I don't use a stopwatch, but I usually do count the seconds inside my head. My typical range is somewhere around 50 seconds, give or take. I have not noticed any difference in cooking time based on the hydration level, so from the "looks of it" my experience is that cooking times don't vary.

That said, the difference is consistency ("softness" vs "crunchiness") is very much dependent on time on the oven. So when I say I experience the 70% pie as much softer than the 63% pie, this could potentially be because they were cooked for a similar amount of time; but perhaps adjusting the time in the oven, like you suggest, would produce very similar results in the texture department.

If so, then they would certainly have a different look (presumably the "drier" one would see less browning), but perhaps the texture would match more closely.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 06, 2020, 06:19:01 AM
that first dough looks like perfection!  :drool:

Thanks! Ah yes that was a 63% pie and it had a wonderful texture (both before and after cooking).

Mushroom pizza is really growing on me.  :chef:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on May 06, 2020, 06:21:52 AM
I don't notice much difference between say 60% & 62%, though I do notice the difference between 60% & 65%, both in how it feels and how it bakes (at least I think I do). :D

I have the feeling that I have to bake the higher hydration a bit longer otherwise I risk it being not really crude, but somewhat unbaked..  I still have to make a lot of pizza to be sure though! :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: hotsawce on May 06, 2020, 10:11:33 PM
I made a 70% water dough and couldn’t even handle it. 61% was very dry feeling. Settling in the middle at 65% for tomorrow - shooting for 50 second bake.

Do you use the pizza party oven? I’m wondering if I should just keep it on full blast the entire time

I cook my pies until they look ready, and then I pull them out. I don't use a stopwatch, but I usually do count the seconds inside my head. My typical range is somewhere around 50 seconds, give or take. I have not noticed any difference in cooking time based on the hydration level, so from the "looks of it" my experience is that cooking times don't vary.

That said, the difference is consistency ("softness" vs "crunchiness") is very much dependent on time on the oven. So when I say I experience the 70% pie as much softer than the 63% pie, this could potentially be because they were cooked for a similar amount of time; but perhaps adjusting the time in the oven, like you suggest, would produce very similar results in the texture department.

If so, then they would certainly have a different look (presumably the "drier" one would see less browning), but perhaps the texture would match more closely.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: DoouBall on May 07, 2020, 12:43:20 PM
I made a 70% water dough and couldn’t even handle it. 61% was very dry feeling. Settling in the middle at 65% for tomorrow - shooting for 50 second bake.

Do you use the pizza party oven? I’m wondering if I should just keep it on full blast the entire time

hotsawce, I've been making a lot of 70% hydration doughs lately, even for Neapolitan pizza. My favorite one made lately was based on Salvatore Lionioello's video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VStVXlrz2ZI&t=141s

It's in Italian, but you can use Auto Translate->English to understand the subtitles. It was easy for me to make the 70% because I used 50% Caputo Tipo 1 and 50% Caputo Nuvola Super, and these flours readily absorbed the 70% water. The dough baked up light and moist over a 2 minute bake at 725F-750F.

One major tip here is - don't use 00 or Bread Flour or anything else for stretching your dough. Use Caputo Semola Rimanciata (or another Semola, not the courser ground Semolina) and use it generously, shaking it off right before you put the dough disk on the peel. It makes a huge difference in stretching high hydration dough. The flour doesn't absorb water from your dough so you can handle it easily without sticking. A secondary benefit is when you bake it, it won't burn like fine flour, so you don't get those nasty black rings on the bottom of your pie. Cheers!

Alex
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 07, 2020, 02:41:57 PM


I made a 70% water dough and couldn’t even handle it. 61% was very dry feeling. Settling in the middle at 65% for tomorrow - shooting for 50 second bake.

Do you use the pizza party oven? I’m wondering if I should just keep it on full blast the entire time

Sorry I don't have the pizza party oven so I can't really give any advise on that.

Hope your 65% dough works out.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on May 08, 2020, 12:29:05 AM
Doouball . . . Gadzooks! I have my headphones on, Sharon looking at me a tad funny as I roll my eyes and raise eyebrows . . .trying so desperately trying to learn both Italian speed speech and making dough! My setting only give me Italian captions which regrettably, given my inability to speak other languages, is colourful but unhelpful - not your fault! Being unilingual rarely has caused me issues, until I wanted to learn about making pizza. Even travelling throughout Europe, English was common enough that I could manage, the combination of learning how to best make pizza AND speak and understand Italian is beyond me.
Takeaways . .  . . Why is he hiding on his deck when inside there are conversations going on? Who is his haberdasher?


Good fun, but regrettably I will have to wait until I learn some Italian.
Will see if I can still do Neapolitan on Gabriola tomorrow.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: DoouBall on May 08, 2020, 12:41:02 AM
Doouball . . . Gadzooks! I have my headphones on, Sharon looking at me a tad funny as I roll my eyes and raise eyebrows . . .trying so desperately trying to learn both Italian speed speech and making dough! My setting only give me Italian captions which regrettably, given my inability to speak other languages, is colourful but unhelpful - not your fault! Being unilingual rarely has caused me issues, until I wanted to learn about making pizza. Even travelling throughout Europe, English was common enough that I could manage, the combination of learning how to best make pizza AND speak and understand Italian is beyond me.
Takeaways . .  . . Why is he hiding on his deck when inside there are conversations going on? Who is his haberdasher?


Good fun, but regrettably I will have to wait until I learn some Italian.
Will see if I can still do Neapolitan on Gabriola tomorrow.

Funny observations Icelandr - I too was wondering why he was on his deck. At any rate, when you click the YouTube link, you should be able to hit "CC" to turn on Subtitles. Then you click the gearwheel (Settings), choose Subtitles/CC and then choose Auto Translate. Scroll down among the languages and choose English. The Auto Translate subtitles are not perfect but they're reasonably close. I have also annotated this video for my own notes:

500g flour
350g water
3g yeast (fresh) (1.5g dry?)
10g salt
Optional 10g olive oil if cooking in a low temp oven, like an domestic oven.

1. Start with flour and yeast in mixer.
2. Slowly add 300g water
3. Keep mixing on 1st speed until pumpkin is formed.
4. Add salt and switch to 2nd speed.
5. Slowly add rest of water, “one thread at a time” - looks like he adds it in about 5 times which means 10g each time.
6. Mix about 1 minute after the last addition of water to finish.
7. After the dough is done, rest for 5 minutes in mixer.
8. Give 3 turns in mixer.
10. 3 folds then drop dough onto lightly floured surface.
11. Give it some folds until smooth and homogeneous.
12. Put dough into a tall and narrow container. If you use a very wide container, the dough loses strength as it spreads out.
13 Give the dough 2 hours to ferment at room temp in bulk, then 16 hours in the fridge.
14. Next day, take dough out and form balls immediately from the fridge - with 70% hydration, it’s easier to for dough balls when the dough is cold.

When dough balls double and reach 65F, you can safely bake them.

Separate note, when making sauce, he uses 6.4g salt per 800g can tomatoes.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 08, 2020, 12:50:29 AM
Thanks for the link Alex. After the last test I posted I have gotten hold of a spiral mixer and will try repeating the same test using that beast. The video you shared above will be part of my ongoing educational on using spiral mixers.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: DoouBall on May 08, 2020, 12:37:52 PM
Thanks for the link Alex. After the last test I posted I have gotten hold of a spiral mixer and will try repeating the same test using that beast. The video you shared above will be part of my ongoing educational on using spiral mixers.

Hey Arne, glad it is helpful. It's really hard to find good instruction on spiral mixers in English - most of the English instruction is geared towards American styles of pizza, so not very helpful in learning how to mix a perfect Napoletana, Pinsa Romana and Pizza in Teglia. Salvatore Lioniello regularly posts exactly those guides for free on his YouTube - just have to get past the language barrier. Enjoy your spiral mixer - I really love mine, but it is definitely still not the easiest to use. However, when I'm pressed for time, I can (sometimes) make a really great dough in 30-40 minutes without any need to do stretch folds or anything else after, and I think that's a win. For me, I had to put my flour and water in the fridge, ideally a few hours before mixing because my mixer heats up fast. I learned that you really don't want to go above 24C - and this has been proven through experience. Probably my best doughs came out when the final temp was 21C or below. The dough just gets weird, sticky, nasty, and unworkable when overheated - but I'm sure you already know that.

Also, there seems to be some division among pizzaiolos about when to add the salt - Salvatore seems to add his right after the pumpkin is formed and before adding the final 10% of water. My friend Dario always adds his salt in last (and oil after that if adding). I would experiment with both to see which you like better. Let me save you a little time and strongly suggest that you don't put water in first and add flour little by little as in the traditional Neapolitan method. I wasted a lot of good flour trying that method. In spiral mixers, it creates a super weird and chewy dough - the dough just stays flat and never stiffens into a solid shape. Salvatore's method is better.

Cheers :)

Alex
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on May 08, 2020, 01:32:10 PM
FWIW, what I've learnt in Italy about making high hydration dough in a spiral mixer is the following.

Use cold water, as heat is a problem (ice water or maybe maximum 5C).  Do a split hydration, that is to say start with the water needed for about 55% hydration of the flour.  Dissolve the yeast and add all the flour at once. Start at a slower speed and then when the pumpkin/garlic head has formed (maybe 4 minutes later), switch to the highest speed and add the salt.  Then add the rest of the water in stages.  Don't add it too quickly, make sure that it doesn't lose too much of the consistency you achieved in the initial mixing.  If you add oil add it at the end.  If you're good at it you can make an 80% dough with a medium strength flour in under 10 minutes.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 09, 2020, 03:38:58 AM
After getting a spiral mixer in the house, I wanted to redo my previous comparison of a 63% HD dough and a 70% hydration dough. The two doughs I made this time were very similar to my previous two doughs, but this time I reduced the salt percentage from my usual 2.9 to 2.8%.

First impressions
The first thing that really stood out to me was that the word on the street is true: the spiral mixer builds a lot of strength into a dough real fast. Compared to my old Santos fork mixer, which I thought did a very effective job of building a strong gluten network, the spiral mixer is a completely different machine. Having mixed up a 63% dough at the slowest speed for 6 minutes and seeing the results, I was actually a bit scared I had ruined the dough. It was way more firm and tight than I've ever seen or felt.  I had planned to ball this the next day and leave it in balls for 8-10 hours maybe, but seeing this dough I was afraid of chewy pizza, so I decided to ball it quickly and let it rest in balls for 20 hours instead.

The 70% HR dough was mixed for a total of 10 minutes at varying speeds, with a procedure inspired by Salvatore Lionello's video and the subsequent exchange between amolapizza and DoouBall above. Again I was amazed at the resulting dough, no way I would have believed there was 70% in this dough if I hadn't just made it. It looked and acted more like a 63% dough made with my usual methods. This dough just needed to be balled up nicely (no bench flour necessary) and go straight to bulk. Lifting it proved the point, it held its shape really well.

I made a short video of it, for those curious:
https://youtu.be/Be40EqQoSU8

(For comparison, the 70% dough I made last time using the Kenwood came out of the mixed as a kind of dough/porridge hybrid that I had to work a lot on the bench to get into working shape. I think I spent some 8-10 minutes slapping and folding. After that it was nice and smooth, but it was also very delicate and when I lifted it it kind of felt like a water balloon.)

Fermentation
I let both doughs ferment at 20.7 °C for 23 hours.
The 63% dough spent 3 hours in bulk, 20 hours in balls
The 70% dough spent 17 hours in bulk and 6 hours in balls.

Baking
After 23 hours at room temperature, these doughs now looked and felt a lot closer to my earlier doughs. I think the 63% dough was so similar to my last such dough that I am not sure whether any perceived differences were imaginary or not.
For the 70% dough, on the other hand, the difference was more obvious. The "spiral mixed" version did not feel as fragile and delicate as the "regular" 70% dough, even having spent comparatively more time relaxing in balls. It was easy to stretch and had a very enjoyable consistency, soft and delicate but not to the point of feeling fragile.

Tasting
Tasting these pies, I honestly could not taste much of a difference compared to my previous bake. There was a big texture difference between the two different hydration levels, of course, but comparing same-for-same with the two similar doughs I made last time, they were really similar. Maybe (just maybe) there was a bit more crunch to the 63% pies this time. On the other hand, this could just as easily be attributed to a few extra seconds in the oven.

Thoughts
I need to gain more experience with this machine before I can say anything with certainty, but at this point I think the spiral mixer will be beneficial for two reasons. Firstly, it allows for very quick and easy dough making, especially for lower hydrations where I can just throw everything into the machine and let it loose for a few minutes. Secondly, I see the prospects of doing more high hydration testing in a more relaxed and convenient way. It just feels so much more approachable now all of a sudden.

Like I commented before, I am in love with the extreme tenderness that comes with high hydration. At the same time I am coming to notice that I like the looks of the lower hydration doughs quite a bit more. I am not sure if this is mostly down to my own technique, but I notice a different browning/charring pattern between these pies. The 63% pizza has many small dark spots on a golden brown background, while the 70% pies tend to sport larger black blisters on a comparatively paler background.
Hmmm... Perhaps lowering the temperature might help with that...? ;-)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Pete_da_Bayer on May 09, 2020, 03:59:39 AM
Amazing looking pies, Arne! Fantastic!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: DoouBall on May 09, 2020, 12:01:43 PM
Arne, a great post and very nice pies!

AATBE, your 70% dough will ferment faster than your 63% dough because, as you know, fermentation speed increases with higher hydration. That is why overnight biga uses 1% yeast while the same overnight poolish often uses only 0.1% yeast to achieve the same speed of maturation.

So to be completely fair, you should really reduce the length of hours you ferment the 70% dough to have a really accurate comparison. My guess is that this is also why your 70% dough shows a different bubble pattern on the outside than the 63%. If you achieved exactly the same fermentation with both doughs, then your charring pattern might be more similar. You also need to keep the % of time spent in bulk and ball the same for the two doughs if you really want a fair comparison - your 70% dough spent 74% of its time in bulk and your 63% spent only 13% of its time in bulk - that will strongly affect your final results. When I ferment dough balls for 24 hours vs 4-5 hours, my results are worlds apart, and the charring pattern is very different. All that being said, I really enjoyed your post and would love to see more comparisons like this, because to be frank, I'm too lazy to make two doughs in one session, so I have to live vicariously through your hard work!

Cheers,

Alex
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: stefan on May 09, 2020, 02:20:28 PM
Very nice results again, Arne! What type is the spiral mixer? I am also planning on getting one, but after ordering a new oven some weeks ago, the WAF (wife acceptance factor) is not so strong at the moment. Did you do SD or CY?

@Alex: interesting topic for sure, how do you experience longer bulk vs. longer balls?
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on May 09, 2020, 11:14:10 PM
I look forward to watching and learning from your experiments and their results. I am reasonably sure at 2 balls a week there will not be a spiral mixer in this house, so I will enjoy vicariously through your experiments. My experiments with 70% dough were met with a resounding “ not worth the effort”, but that was due to my hands and capabilities, it is great you can create the doughs you want to target easily.
The pizza always looks great, from oven to blowtorch always a goal to work towards. When the restrictions are lifted, I picture more parties on your deck, and look forward to the reports.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 10, 2020, 06:43:41 AM
Arne, a great post and very nice pies!

AATBE, your 70% dough will ferment faster than your 63% dough because, as you know, fermentation speed increases with higher hydration. That is why overnight biga uses 1% yeast while the same overnight poolish often uses only 0.1% yeast to achieve the same speed of maturation.

So to be completely fair, you should really reduce the length of hours you ferment the 70% dough to have a really accurate comparison. My guess is that this is also why your 70% dough shows a different bubble pattern on the outside than the 63%. If you achieved exactly the same fermentation with both doughs, then your charring pattern might be more similar. You also need to keep the % of time spent in bulk and ball the same for the two doughs if you really want a fair comparison - your 70% dough spent 74% of its time in bulk and your 63% spent only 13% of its time in bulk - that will strongly affect your final results. When I ferment dough balls for 24 hours vs 4-5 hours, my results are worlds apart, and the charring pattern is very different. All that being said, I really enjoyed your post and would love to see more comparisons like this, because to be frank, I'm too lazy to make two doughs in one session, so I have to live vicariously through your hard work!

Cheers,

Alex

Thank you Alex, and thanks for insightful observations. You make some very good points and have given me more ideas of things to try out in order to get the best from both worlds. :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 10, 2020, 06:47:19 AM
Very nice results again, Arne! What type is the spiral mixer? I am also planning on getting one, but after ordering a new oven some weeks ago, the WAF (wife acceptance factor) is not so strong at the moment. Did you do SD or CY?

@Alex: interesting topic for sure, how do you experience longer bulk vs. longer balls?

Thanks, Stefan! It is the "Sun6" from Sunmix. Regrettably I was forced to sell my Santos to offset the cost (and the WAF), it breaks my heart but I believe it was the right decision for me.

These doughs were both made with SD.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 10, 2020, 06:50:32 AM
I look forward to watching and learning from your experiments and their results. I am reasonably sure at 2 balls a week there will not be a spiral mixer in this house, so I will enjoy vicariously through your experiments. My experiments with 70% dough were met with a resounding “ not worth the effort”, but that was due to my hands and capabilities, it is great you can create the doughs you want to target easily.
The pizza always looks great, from oven to blowtorch always a goal to work towards. When the restrictions are lifted, I picture more parties on your deck, and look forward to the reports.

Hi Greg thanks you for your nice comments, I am really looking forward to inviting more guests soon. Norway is loosening up quite a bit these days so I am hopeful that large quantities of dough are soon in order.

I like your new avatar, by the way.  :chef:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: DoouBall on May 10, 2020, 11:28:04 AM
Very nice results again, Arne! What type is the spiral mixer? I am also planning on getting one, but after ordering a new oven some weeks ago, the WAF (wife acceptance factor) is not so strong at the moment. Did you do SD or CY?

@Alex: interesting topic for sure, how do you experience longer bulk vs. longer balls?

Stefan, when I do a long time in bulk, the dough becomes stronger - as you know, bulk fermentation in bread making/pizza making is a tool to build strength in the dough, similar to autolyze, or using biga/poolish. This is why a dough made with a biga/poolish often skips the bulk fermentation stage, or reduces it down to 1 hour before balling - you really don't need the bulk stage because the preferment already added enough strength and flavor to the dough.

AOTBE, a longer time in bulk and shorter time in balls will create stronger, taller rise in the pizza or bread assuming that the balls roughly doubled before being stretched in both cases. Of course, there is a limit based on the W value or protein % of the flour - if you go too long in bulk, the gluten will degrade and the sugars will be used up leading to poor browning and poor oven spring.

A longer time in balls creates more relaxed, extensible dough which is good if you want to stretch your pizza extra thin. If you also ferment your balls in the fridge, I noticed that a long ferment in balls creates lots of tiny leopard spots during baking - something that some people love but not everyone finds desirable. A shorter time in balls, especially at room temperature, favors a more even browning on the cornicione.

Arne, thinking back to my 70% hydration doughs, I feel that the browning pattern had more to do with whether I fermented the balls in the fridge vs room temp. When I fermented my 70% balls in the fridge and brought them out only 60-90 minutes before baking, I got a much finer leopard spot pattern than you did - might also be worth a shot if that's what you're after. Having colder 70% dough also makes it easier to shape.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on May 10, 2020, 02:26:34 PM
I look forward to watching and learning from your experiments and their results. I am reasonably sure at 2 balls a week there will not be a spiral mixer in this house, so I will enjoy vicariously through your experiments. My experiments with 70% dough were met with a resounding “ not worth the effort”, but that was due to my hands and capabilities, it is great you can create the doughs you want to target easily.
The pizza always looks great, from oven to blowtorch always a goal to work towards. When the restrictions are lifted, I picture more parties on your deck, and look forward to the reports.

I have to agree with Greg.  For the few pizzas I make a week, I don't think s spiral mixer is in my future.  But I do so love your experiments and learning from your techniques!  Your skills are awesome.

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Chicago Bob on May 10, 2020, 10:21:22 PM
Wow!!  Those are the goods Arnie.    :chef:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 16, 2020, 04:51:31 AM
Thank you both, gentlemen. :pizza:

Yesterday was a cool but sunny day in Lommedalen and with Margherita Madness 2 planned three weeks from now, a little practice seems prudent. We actually had the pleasure of having guests over, which was really nice. (Don't worry, we have a rather spacious outdoor area with plenty of options for safe distance seating). ;D

I made dough with Petra 5063, a flour that has really grown on me. I used 66% water, 2.8% salt and 6% SD. Fermented and matured for 22 hours at 20.2°C (12 hours in bulk, 10 in balls). Pluviometer level around 26, meaning a rise of about 70%. I was very happy with this dough, it was spot on for my taste.

In addition to the practice margheritas, we topped up with other ingredients from the fridge too. Mushroom is a big hit these days, so is beef with spring onion and lemon zest. With our guests having the sense to bring plenty of warm clothing, we endured the sunset and ended up having a long and fun evening outdoors.


Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: SAUZER.ITALY on May 16, 2020, 05:39:26 AM
Wow !!! very goooooddddd  ^^^ ^^^ Bravo !
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 16, 2020, 09:26:29 AM
Thank you Renato! :chef:  :chef:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: DoouBall on May 16, 2020, 11:05:15 AM
Arne, these pies are some of my favorites from your whole thread! The browning on the cornicione is spot on. I am very jealous that you can get Petra 5063. I have heard it is a great flour but it is near impossible for home bakers to get Petra in US.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 17, 2020, 04:39:54 AM
Arne, these pies are some of my favorites from your whole thread! The browning on the cornicione is spot on. I am very jealous that you can get Petra 5063. I have heard it is a great flour but it is near impossible for home bakers to get Petra in US.

Wow thanks a lot, Alex! Funny thing is that while I can get Petra from my local Italian specialty store, it is actually cheaper for me to buy Caputo Pizzeria online and have it shipped via UPS from Italy to my home. Now that I've fallen in love with Petra, I'll probably pay the price though (once my stockpile of Pizzeria is spent  :-D).
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Pete_da_Bayer on May 17, 2020, 05:39:43 AM
Beautiful pies, Arne. They look like paintings. That flour makes me curious. Actually i wanted to get back to regional flour in the long run, but a test batch of unknown flours now and then is always interesting.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Pedro1 on May 17, 2020, 08:24:24 AM
Beautiful pies Arne! Would you say that there were any marked differences in terms of ease of shaping the doughs between Petra and Caputo Pizzeria with all other variables the same? Thanks!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: DoouBall on May 17, 2020, 11:49:14 AM
Wow thanks a lot, Alex! Funny thing is that while I can get Petra from my local Italian specialty store, it is actually cheaper for me to buy Caputo Pizzeria online and have it shipped via UPS from Italy to my home. Now that I've fallen in love with Petra, I'll probably pay the price though (once my stockpile of Pizzeria is spent  :-D).

Arne, what would you say are the main differences between the Petra and Caputo? Is Petra significantly better in some ways?

Thanks,

Alex
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Yael on May 17, 2020, 08:48:42 PM
I never thought I would go to Norway one day but... You convinced me  ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 18, 2020, 02:09:55 AM
Thank you all for the nice comments.  :D
That flour makes me curious. Actually i wanted to get back to regional flour in the long run, but a test batch of unknown flours now and then is always interesting.

Would you say that there were any marked differences in terms of ease of shaping the doughs between Petra and Caputo Pizzeria with all other variables the same? Thanks!

Arne, what would you say are the main differences between the Petra and Caputo? Is Petra significantly better in some ways?

For the most part, I find that Petra 5063 is remarkably similar to Caputo Pizzeria in many ways, and by now I have come to be equally fond of these two flours. I also think there are a few minor differences that are interesting to me, but they are not huge. Making similar doughs and comparing side by side has at least convinced me of some differences.

Observation 1: 5063 absorbs water a little better than Pizzeria. Right out of the mixer, the 5063 holds better together and is less sticky than Pizzeria. This difference seems to diminish with time, however. After fermentation and maturation, this is no longer a detectable difference to me (but it is still noticeable when when I ball up the dough after bulk).

Observation 2: 5063 dough balls end up flatter than their Pizzeria equivalents. Initially I though this was my imagination, but after multiple comparison bakes I have found that on average, final height if my Caputo dough balls are 11% taller than similar balls made from the Petra flour. What's even stranger, the diameters are not different by my measurements! So there must be a volume difference. Maybe there is less air captured in my 5063 doughs, or maybe more air is escaping from them.

These two observations I am fairly confident of at this point.

In addition I could mention a couple of impressions that I have. I am not sure these are "real differences" yet. There are too many other variables to control, and I need more experience to evaluate:

Impression 1: Petra 5063 seems to get slightly more oven spring than Pizzeria.

Impression 2: Petra 5063 overall feels a bit softer to the touch when opened.

Impression 3: The finished pizza tastes practically identical.

I have not yet gone beyond 24 hours with Petra but am planning to do a side-by-side for a 48 hour dough at some point.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 18, 2020, 04:44:46 AM
I never thought I would go to Norway one day but... You convinced me  ;D ;D ;D

That's quite a trip, Yael!  :-D

If you do, come in the summer!  :pizza:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Yael on May 18, 2020, 10:08:02 AM
That's quite a trip, Yael!  :-D

If you do, come in the summer!  :pizza:

Yeah I know, I wouldn't miss that day! (as my brother who lives in Quebec said: "summer is the day I prefer here"  ;D)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: DoouBall on May 18, 2020, 11:23:02 AM
Thank you all for the nice comments.  :D
For the most part, I find that Petra 5063 is remarkably similar to Caputo Pizzeria in many ways, and by now I have come to be equally fond of these two flours. I also think there are a few minor differences that are interesting to me, but they are not huge. Making similar doughs and comparing side by side has at least convinced me of some differences.

Observation 1: 5063 absorbs water a little better than Pizzeria. Right out of the mixer, the 5063 holds better together and is less sticky than Pizzeria. This difference seems to diminish with time, however. After fermentation and maturation, this is no longer a detectable difference to me (but it is still noticeable when when I ball up the dough after bulk).

Observation 2: 5063 dough balls end up flatter than their Pizzeria equivalents. Initially I though this was my imagination, but after multiple comparison bakes I have found that on average, final height if my Caputo dough balls are 11% taller than similar balls made from the Petra flour. What's even stranger, the diameters are not different by my measurements! So there must be a volume difference. Maybe there is less air captured in my 5063 doughs, or maybe more air is escaping from them.

These two observations I am fairly confident of at this point.

In addition I could mention a couple of impressions that I have. I am not sure these are "real differences" yet. There are too many other variables to control, and I need more experience to evaluate:

Impression 1: Petra 5063 seems to get slightly more oven spring than Pizzeria.

Impression 2: Petra 5063 overall feels a bit softer to the touch when opened.

Impression 3: The finished pizza tastes practically identical.

I have not yet gone beyond 24 hours with Petra but am planning to do a side-by-side for a 48 hour dough at some point.

Arne, thanks for the detailed analysis. I was curious about these differences so I also dug up the spec sheet. Petra is really great about that - very detailed information available. You can click Download here to download the spec sheet:

https://shop.farinaearte.it/pizzeria/27-petra-5063-special.html#/7-peso_confezione-12_5_kg

And here's the info on Pizzeria:

https://www.mulinocaputo.it/en/flour/la-linea-professionale/pizzeria

Seems almost identical in Protein values and W values. Petra might be a tiny bit stronger as it is 12.50-13% protein and Pizzeria is 12.5%. The other difference I can see is that 5063 has a p/l value of 0.55-0.65 and Pizzeria has a p/l value of 0.50/0.60. Here, "P" expresses the resistance of the dough to deformation and "L" represents the extensibility of the dough or its ability to rise (source = http://www.theartisan.net/flour_criteria_judging.htm). This means Petra might rise a bit higher and mirrors your experience during baking.

On a separate note, my friend Dario Scopelliti, an award-winning Pizzaiolo in the UK has had great success using Petra Allegra (5046), the weaker sibling of 5063, although he uses fresh yeast, and I think that Allegra might be too weak for sourdough. He also said he had good results with using Petra Special (5063) as a preferment and Petra Allegra as the refreshment flour. Cheers! -Alex





Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on May 18, 2020, 11:35:22 AM
FWIW, in the last pdf for the Caputo pizzeria that I have, the Brabender absorbment measurement is listed as 58-60%.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Pete-zza on May 18, 2020, 05:16:31 PM
There is also good information on the Petra flours, including the Petra 5063, at:

https://www.farinapetra.it/assortimento.php

Peter
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 26, 2020, 06:45:18 AM
Yesterday was nice, sunny and warm (20°C), so I jumped at the chance of making pizza outside again.

100% Petra 5063, 66% water, 2.7% salt and 6% SD.
24 hours at 19.6°C, 14 in bulk and 10 in balls.
Spy/pluviometer showed 70% volume expansion.


The dough was good, but I've come to like a little more salt. I'm still playing with the salt levels, and 2.9% is my normal. I've tried a couple at 2.8%, and this time I went down to 2.7%. Funny how such a minor adjustment seems to matter. The dough even felt a little weaker/more elastic than expected.

I found a piece of "well matured" guanciale in the back of my fridge and figured I had to use it before it got too mature. It was supposed to be cooked with a little mozzarella and blue cheese, then garnished with pomegranate seeds post bake, but I forgot and added everything upfront. It was still good, but I really prefer the contrast that I get when they are not cooked with the rest of the pie.

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: stefan on May 26, 2020, 07:15:01 AM
That looks delicious. I love the ‚red sprinkles‘ aka pomegranate on the pizza. What a beautiful contrast!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 26, 2020, 12:27:22 PM
Thank you Stefan, the sweet crunch from cool pomegrenate seeds is really nice with the savory topping too. Just as long as I remember not to cook it.  ;D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: schold on May 26, 2020, 02:40:03 PM
Really beautiful.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on May 27, 2020, 01:45:30 PM
Very nice Arne!  The cheese is done perfectly!  Bravo!!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on May 31, 2020, 09:27:23 AM
Yesterday was sunny and hot so I tried to keep it simple. Margherita and Marinara was the plan.

I am back to trusty old Caputo Pizzeria after having spent all my Petra flour.

66% water, 2.8% salt, 3.5% Salvatore.
Ferment at 21°C for 24 hours, of which only 5 in balls (I camped in the forest that night and got home a little later than planned).

Despite the short time in balls, the dough was quite nice. A tad too elastic perhaps. But as it did not start any trouble, I have nothing bad to say about it.

We all imagined the crust tasted different from last time (when I used a the Petra flour), so I guess there's no two ways about it: Got to get some more Petra 5063 and do a full side by side test panel highly scientific comparison some day soon.

Despite my plan to keep it simple, my boys requested something a bit more filling, and so I made triple meat to them: Beef, pepperoni and meat balls, plus a little red onion and Jarlsberg.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on June 01, 2020, 10:38:33 AM
Interesting Arne.  Only 3.5% Salvatore this time.  I seem to recall a much larger percentage is the past.  The pies look great.  I think you got the right number.  I have been thinking what percentage I might use the next time I bake with the warmer weather.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 01, 2020, 10:46:16 AM
Interesting Arne.  Only 3.5% Salvatore this time.  I seem to recall a much larger percentage is the past.  The pies look great.  I think you got the right number.  I have been thinking what percentage I might use the next time I bake with the warmer weather.

Yes, Salvatore is in perfect condition! That means I can simply use Craig's numbers as-is.  :chef:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 02, 2020, 01:51:45 PM
Tomatoes?
Check!

Madness, here I come.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: DoouBall on June 02, 2020, 02:01:57 PM
Tomatoes?
Check!

Madness, here I come.

I don't think you got enough tomatoes to feed the whole forum  :-D :-D :-D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 02, 2020, 02:19:20 PM
You may be right.
Hmmmm...
But maybe I've got enough to feed all forum members who come visit this summer... :-D
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: scott r on June 02, 2020, 07:49:27 PM
nice choice in tomatoes!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Yael on June 02, 2020, 11:26:03 PM
You may be right.
Hmmmm...
But maybe I've got enough to feed all forum members who come visit this summer... :-D

I'd love to  :P
Which day will be the summer this year again?  :-D (ok same joke, I know... but I love it  ;D)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 03, 2020, 01:54:04 AM
I'd love to  :P
Which day will be the summer this year again?  :-D (ok same joke, I know... but I love it  ;D)

Oh I'm afraid you may have missed it this year, then.  :P

But we stock plenty of blankets, so even the autumn here is bearable.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: DoouBall on June 03, 2020, 12:42:07 PM
Arne, check out what I was able to buy from a local pizzeria! I can’t tell you how excited I am to try this!

By the way, the spec sheet for this flour says that it is good for 8-10 hours at 20C or up to 48 hours at 4C. I emailed Petra to clarify what the 48 hours mean and he said that it's 48 hours total, including any time out of the fridge. But that timing is with the assumption that it spends most of its time at 4C.

I talked to my local pizzeria about how they use it, and the guy said that they bulk ferment 24 hours at 18C (65F) and then do 2 hours in balls at room temperature. I was like WHAAAAAAT? 2 hours in balls seem crazy low, but I guess it works for them. To be honest, their pizza isn't that great. I'm confident that I can do better and I think your pizza looks a ton better than theirs as well.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 03, 2020, 01:08:19 PM
Alex, that's great! I have to say, being able to buy flour from your local pizzeria does not sound bad!  :chef:

While the specs say 8-10 hours at 20°C, I've had no problems going 24 hours RT. Same story as with Caputo Pizzeria I guess.  :-D

Hope you have fun with it.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: DoouBall on June 03, 2020, 01:14:04 PM
Would you say it can take more water than Caputo Pizzeria? I'm thinking of pushing it to 70% hydration, but I can try less if you don't think it can take it. Specs say 58% absorption, but I noticed that this is typically the minimum and I can usually go higher...but only experimentation can show how much higher.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 03, 2020, 01:27:18 PM
I think it depends on how long you plan on fermenting it. For 24 hours at RT my advice would be to start a bit lower than 70%, at least until you've tried it once or twice. I've only gone as high as 66% with this flour at that time/temp combo and found that it did require a bit of extra mix/knead to get appropriate strength for this situation.

Just after the mix I think it feels like it absorbs a little better than Caputo Pizzeria. Buy after some hours it evens out and maybe even ends up the opposite.

Good luck, looking forward to hearing your thoughts. And seeing the results.

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: DoouBall on June 03, 2020, 02:14:15 PM
Thanks Arne. I'll try to make some Margheritas with this for the Margherita Madness.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 03, 2020, 02:30:12 PM
Very nice, I'm happy to know you will be there! :)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: dasabonis on June 09, 2020, 08:55:29 PM
Arne,
I want to thank you for this amazing thread. As a fellow engineer, I can really appreciate your detailed approach and methodology to pizza making! I have learned alot and really enjoyed reading this.

I have read the entire thread start to finish over the past 2 days, and wanted to ask about your original question. Have you been able to achieve your initial goal of Sorbillo tenderness? I feel like that initial theme to this thread has been somewhat forgotten over the past year so.

Thanks again and cheers from Canada.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 10, 2020, 08:22:24 AM
Arne,
I want to thank you for this amazing thread. As a fellow engineer, I can really appreciate your detailed approach and methodology to pizza making! I have learned alot and really enjoyed reading this.

I have read the entire thread start to finish over the past 2 days, and wanted to ask about your original question. Have you been able to achieve your initial goal of Sorbillo tenderness? I feel like that initial theme to this thread has been somewhat forgotten over the past year so.

Thanks again and cheers from Canada.

Thank you very much, I appreciate the kind comments and feedback. Also thanks for a good question that I find difficult to answer in a good way.

You are right that the direction this thread is going in may be shifting somewhat. But my goal is not forgotten. It may have been reinterpreted slightly, but I think the essence of what I'm after is the same as before.

I still vividly remember the pizza I had at Sorbillo that got me all fired up. What an experience! It really sparked something in me. Alas, a repeat of this experience has eluded me, even after repeated seatings at Sorbillo's. Was it bigger than reality? And is it misleading of me to talk about it as "Sorbillo tenderness"? There are certainly other places of at least the same level of quality.

Still, that's where my story started.

Side by side, my pizza of 2020 is certainly much closer to my ideal than was my pizza of 2018.
In most cases, I would describe it as soft, tender and fluffy.

There is much more for me to learn and understand about Neapolitan pizza. On a learning curve, maybe I have passed the steepest part, and progress may be happening slower now than it once did. At the same time, I have gained some measure of experience and confidence.

But I'm not "done", not even close. I keep making pizza as often as I can, and with every dough I make I try my best to beat my past self.

Which does not always happen...

But fun always does.  :chef:
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 26, 2020, 07:57:19 AM
I am dough

In my search for the perfect dough, I have finally come to fully appreciate that I must consider myself as part of the equation. Little did I know when I first started this thread, that the quality of the final pizza is just as much influenced by my hands and techniques as the formulation, ingredients and fermentation regimen. Pizza making is a craft that relies on muscle memory and tacit knowledge -- experience --, in a big way.

Not exactly a newsflash, I know. I hear Craig yelling "told you so" as I write this. What can I say, I'm a slow learner.  ;D And now I finally think I have a real appreciation of this fact.

Right now I am in the process of trying to "learn again" how to shape the pie properly. It is not so much that I am trying out new techniques, but more that I am revisiting my existing methods in a more conscious way and trying to evaluate what I am doing and how I can improve.

The dough of yesterday:


Fermentation and maturation: 22 hours at 20.5 ºC (first 15 hours in bulk, last 7 hours in balls).

The dough was behaving very well.
I was behaving so-so. It was an awkward shaping session where I did not feel confident at all (mission accomplished I guess).

But the results were quite tasty.

Despite having a Scarpetta in the lineup, my favorite yesterday was actually the Salmon pie.

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on June 26, 2020, 05:44:48 PM
Beautiful color Arne.  The Scarpetta looks outstanding.  I believe you made yourself proud with your dough handling!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Yael on June 26, 2020, 10:30:43 PM
[...]
Not exactly a newsflash, I know. I hear Craig yelling "told you so" as I write this.[...]

Hahaha, I made myself the same remark while reading  :P

Keep going Arne! Your pizzas are already beautiful, you'll perfect each and every angle! (I wish I was as perfectionist as you  :-D)
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Icelandr on June 26, 2020, 11:31:33 PM
OK Arne, time for a hobby/ interest change, - have you considered flower pressing, philately, crochet . . .  .?
The pictures of your pizza recall many hours as a young boy fascinated with National Geographic, the wonders there were, in such vibrant colour . . .  . While it may keep me awake at night and confuse Sharon as I mutter, how does he do that, do what dear, the pizza dear, whaaat? Sadly hearing and pizzamaking seems to be taking a shot   . . .  . OK, very nice pizza Arne!  Grumble grumble
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on June 27, 2020, 11:40:23 AM
I am dough

In my search for the perfect dough, I have finally come to fully appreciate that I must consider myself as part of the equation. Little did I know when I first started this thread, that the quality of the final pizza is just as much influenced by my hands and techniques as the formulation, ingredients and fermentation regimen. Pizza making is a craft that relies on muscle memory and tacit knowledge -- experience --, in a big way.

I was just thinking along similar lines.  I've noticed that my dough just gets better as the years go by.  More or less the same recipe, but it sticks less, less problematic to open, easier to handle in the oven, etc, etc.  The thing is that I don't really know what I do differently that could cause the dough to behave so much better.

I suppose it's experience and a myriad of small changes that align to make a greater whole, still I'm mystified with the cause for the improvements.  I really can't put my finger on any particular change that I've made.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 29, 2020, 11:35:40 AM
Beautiful color Arne.  The Scarpetta looks outstanding.  I believe you made yourself proud with your dough handling!

Keep going Arne! Your pizzas are already beautiful, you'll perfect each and every angle! (I wish I was as perfectionist as you  :-D)

OK Arne, time for a hobby/ interest change, - have you considered flower pressing, philately, crochet . . .  .?


Thanks guys, and Greg yes I am done now. If you don't see me posting for a while, it may be flowers are being pressed instead.

Or... I've noticed that taking pictures of pizza when the sun hangs low in the sky seems to work well. Maybe instead of pressing flowers I'll devote the next few years on developing a formula to compute the appropriate time of day to photograph the pizza, given a set of GPS coordinates, the weather forecast and maybe some other external sources. Exciting!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 29, 2020, 11:48:10 AM
I was just thinking along similar lines.  I've noticed that my dough just gets better as the years go by.  More or less the same recipe, but it sticks less, less problematic to open, easier to handle in the oven, etc, etc.  The thing is that I don't really know what I do differently that could cause the dough to behave so much better.

I suppose it's experience and a myriad of small changes that align to make a greater whole, still I'm mystified with the cause for the improvements.  I really can't put my finger on any particular change that I've made.

Jack, that sums it up beautifully in my mind.

I think it's exciting to observe that experience is paying off.
At the same time it's a bit of a bummer to realize that answering questions and giving advice in some cases has become harder than it used to be, in particular when it comes to specifics about a single factor. It makes me feel a bit like a fraud sometimes.   :-\

Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: twangcat on June 29, 2020, 01:48:38 PM
I am dough
Despite having a Scarpetta in the lineup, my favorite yesterday was actually the Salmon pie.

Greetings Arne,

The pizzas in this post look delicous.  I'm a bit new to this game and I don't know all the various code names for some of the pies people talk about here.  Thus I'd be grateful if you would please tell me what a Scarpetta pizza is.  Actually, aside from the Salmon pie which gives itself away among the pics you posted, what are the toppings on the other two?

Thanks,

Cliff
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 29, 2020, 03:02:10 PM
The pizzas in this post look delicous.  I'm a bit new to this game and I don't know all the various code names for some of the pies people talk about here.  Thus I'd be grateful if you would please tell me what a Scarpetta pizza is.  Actually, aside from the Salmon pie which gives itself away among the pics you posted, what are the toppings on the other two?

Thanks, Cliff!

The "Scarpetta" is the name of a pizza invented by Franco Pepe and only (afaik) served at his restaurant "Pepe in Grani" in Caiazzo. The original consists of mozzarella, cream of aged Grana Padano, tomato compote, shavings of Grana Padano and freeze dried basil. It is crazy good!

Due to what I have available, the version I make uses Parmigiano Regiano instead of Grana Padano and I use finely chopped fresh basil mixed with EVO instead of freeze dried basil. My clone recipe is posted here. (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=52803.msg536662#msg536662)

The mushroom pie has mozzarella, parmigiano, garlig, red onion, oyster mushrooms, Cremini mushrooms pre bake, then a touch of salt & pepper, chives and a drizzle of EVO post bake.

By the way, maybe not easily spotted by visual inspection alone, the salmon pie uses raw, sushi grade, non-smoked salmon -- and some lime zest too.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: twangcat on June 29, 2020, 03:38:54 PM
Oh WOW all that sounds incredible.  Thanks very much for sharing.  I'm going to try some of this myself.

c

Thanks, Cliff!
The "Scarpetta" is the name of a pizza invented by Franco Pepe and only (afaik) served at his restaurant "Pepe in Grani" in Caiazzo. The original consists of mozzarella, cream of aged Grana Padano, tomato compote, shavings of Grana Padano and freeze dried basil. It is crazy good!

Due to what I have available, the version I make uses Parmigiano Regiano instead of Grana Padano and I use finely chopped fresh basil mixed with EVO instead of freeze dried basil. My clone recipe is posted here. (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=52803.msg536662#msg536662)

The mushroom pie has mozzarella, parmigiano, garlig, red onion, oyster mushrooms, Cremini mushrooms pre bake, then a touch of salt & pepper, chives and a drizzle of EVO post bake.

By the way, maybe not easily spotted by visual inspection alone, the salmon pie uses raw, sushi grade, non-smoked salmon -- and some lime zest too.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: twangcat on July 08, 2020, 10:48:15 AM
Greetings Arne,

I'm trying my hand at a Scarpetta pizza this evening as part of a socially distanced pizza bash birthday dinner for a friend.  Here's a pic of the tomato compote I just finished making and had to share.  Thanks for the inspiration, I can't wait to put all of the ingredients together and eat this pizza!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 08, 2020, 12:19:13 PM
Greetings Arne,

I'm trying my hand at a Scarpetta pizza this evening as part of a socially distanced pizza bash birthday dinner for a friend.  Here's a pic of the tomato compote I just finished making and had to share.  Thanks for the inspiration, I can't wait to put all of the ingredients together and eat this pizza!
Greetings Cliff,

That's the stuff! Looks perfect to me, I hope the Scarpetta knocks your socks off tonight!

Please let me know how it went. Fingers crossed for a great "distant" evening with friends and small shoes.

Cheers!
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 08, 2020, 01:29:41 PM
(...)
Suspend your yeast in brine; it will work just fine. Do your phone call before adding the flour, too, no problem.

I think. Maybe we should ask Arne to do the experiments? This is biology, I can't touch it.

Thank for asking, Schold. Though your quote above seems to reflect the consensus on this forum, I have wanted to test this for a while myself: How does the timing of the salt addition affects the dough?

I already know disaster will not strike, as this has been my method for years already. But lately I've found myself adding salt at the very end of the mix. Why? I don't know. It is said to result in a softer dough perhaps.

Will a direct comparison shed some more light on this question?

Recipe, doughs A and B:
100% flour (50/50 blend of Caputo Pizzeria and Caputo Nuvola Super)
5.3% SD starter (at 100% hydration)
70% water (accounting for the water and flour in the preferment)
2.9% salt

Procedure dough A:
Dissolve salt in water
Add SD culture to the salty water
Let rest for a few minutes
Combine with flour in mixer
Mix dough
Cover and set to bulk ferment.

Procedure dough B:
Add SD culture to pure water
Combine with flour in mixer
Mix dough
After 8 minutes of mixing, add salt
Mix for another 4 minutes
Cover and set to bulk ferment

Fermentation, doughs A and B:
Bulk 13.5 hours @ 21°C (+/- 0.2°C)
Ball 7.5 hours @ 21°C (+/- 0.2°C)

Observations:
Both doughs rose. Phew.
The doughs felt the same.
They also tasted the same.

The fermentation activity of both doughs seemed pretty much identical.
I used a couple of pluviometers to track the rise levels for the doughs. They both started out around the 15 mm mark (give or take 0.5 mm). Once they started to move I recorded the leves every 30 or 60 minutes. The results can be seen in the attached diagram.

As evident from the data, I did not observe a huge difference in the "performance" of these two doughs. The plots practically overlap, with a maximum height difference of 1 mm. This translates to about 30-60 minutes of fermentation. Additionally, it is probably just natural variation (just for fun I sometimes track the same dough with up to 3 pluviometers to understand better what to expect, and variations of up to 2 mm can sometimes be seen for three 80 gram pieces of the same exact dough).

Conclusion:
In the future I will add the salt whenever I feel like it. Does not seem to matter in my kitchen.

Photos:
Margherita from dough A, mushroom from dough B, kids pies for dough C (not documented here, but I also made a more easily manageable 62% HR dough for the kids to make their own pies with).
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: schold on July 08, 2020, 02:14:36 PM
Thank you for doing the experiment, Arne. Very interesting reading. When I started with pizza, I quickly adopted (and invented some myself) numerous superstitions which in sum greatly complicated the process. With time, I've rid myself of all but one - I still don't use iodized salt. I know it is nonsense, but I don't want to be too rational, either.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: amolapizza on July 08, 2020, 02:43:23 PM
I've been using iodized salt due to covid-19 shopping issues, seems to work just the same! :)

Nice test Arne!  I wish you'd do it with CY too!  If I understand correctly part of the gas produced by sourdough fermentation comes from the bacteria, maybe it handles salt better than yeast.
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: sk on July 08, 2020, 02:47:03 PM
Thanks for the detailed experiment Arne.  I never worried about adding the SD to the salty water and never had a problem.  Most of the videos of the experts in Naples do it that way.  What I learned from your write up was 30-60 minutes equal approximately 1mm in rise.  I will keep that in mind when I do my timing for guests.  It would be interesting to know if I chilled down the dough to 18c, it then equals x hours to 1mm, or if I warmed the dough to 23c it takes x hours to rise 1mm.
That would help for timing when having guests.  Having guests at 7:00 and a pluviometer at 30 at 6:00might be a problem.

Scott
Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 08, 2020, 03:54:14 PM


I still don't use iodized salt. I know it is nonsense, but I don't want to be too rational, either.

That makes two of us. :-D



Title: Re: The Doughs of My Life
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 08, 2020, 03:57:29 PM