Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => Neapolitan Style => Topic started by: Heikjo on January 21, 2019, 05:12:40 AM

Title: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on January 21, 2019, 05:12:40 AM
I can finally make Neapolitan pizza after getting the Effeuno P134H (http://www.effeuno.biz/en/21/electric-ovens-for-bread-and-pizza-lovers/32/easy-pizza-line/298/one-pizza-oven) oven from Italy via the Norwegian distributor (https://bakerovner.no)!  :D :pizza:

Up to this point Iíve made my own take on NY style with SD in a home oven with stone and 300C. I aim to bake pies in 60-90 seconds in the new oven. The pies of Craig (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14249.0), Sauzer (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34731.0), Antilife (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40885.0), Arne (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=52803), Icelandr (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41907.0), Schold (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=35606.0), Amolapizza (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=52331.0) and so many more are great inspirations and what Iím aiming at. I especially try to learn from those making neapolitans with sourdough. Of course this entire forum is extremely helpful and I have to mention Tom and Peter for all their contributions and knowledge. More often than not I get help from them by finding old topics about what I'm seeking answers for. I would also like to mention the Italian forum La Confraternita della Pizza (http://laconfraternitadellapizza.forumfree.it/) which has a lot of good info on the P134H oven and how to use it. Thanks to Google Translate Iím able to learn from and discuss with the Italian expertise too. Iíve been to Naples and ate at the famed pizzerias there, which was what really sparked my interest in neapolitans.

The Oven:
Effeuno P134H countertop oven, late 2018 model. 2x450C thermostats. Triple glass door. 1900W upper element, 900W lower element. 3cm clay stone (biscotto). I think it's a great oven for Norway, where we got long winters and low temperatures. With this oven it's no problem making pizza all year around.

The Equipment:
Wine cooler set at 15C for fermentation. Wooden launch peel from American Metalcraft. Aluminium peel from American Metalcraft.

The Dough:
Flour: 100% (currently Caputo Pizzeria, but will experiment)
Water: 62-65%
Starter: 2-10%
Salt: 2.5-3%

The Dough Process:
I use the Preferment Calculator (https://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment-calculator.html) for the recipe. At some time prior to making the dough, I feed the starter (typically 4-16 hours). First thing I do when making the dough is adding water to the bowl. I add salt and swirl to dissolve, then add starter and swirl with a spatula to dissolve. The starter has typically doubled or tripled at this point. Next I add flour and mix everything. At this stage the dough is a bit sticky, so I let it rest covered for 10 minutes. Then I knead and fold the dough a bit and if it looks fine, set away to ferment. If itís still a bit sticky and rough, I might leave it 10 minutes more. Then itís off to fermentation either in bulk or balls. I usually do 48-hour or 24-hour doughs. With 12 hours in balls or re-balled. The first 12-36 hours on plastic or glass and the last 12 the dough sits on wood to dry out the bottom so I can use less or no bench flour.

I sometimes use a pluviometer (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=48918.0) to determine the fermentation status of the dough. The dough is increased with an additional 80g and I put the 80g ball into the pluviometer. Initially itís at ca. 16 mm/m≤ and it seems to be ideal around 25-30. I find it a bit difficult to gauge a dough just from looks, so itís a useful tool. Itís also a nice way to somewhat compare the fermentation of my dough with other people on the internet. I mainly use it when I change flour, recipe, temperatures etc. Once Iíve found a consistent method, I donít need to use it very often. When I first started with sourdough and RT, my tendency was to let them ferment too far and become difficult to work with, so it has been great help.

The Oven Management:
I let the oven heat up 45-60 minutes before baking. I donít have much experience yet and will never master the oven, but I will always try to get a little bit better each time. Based on other owners of this oven, I will probably turn the one or both thermostats down some time before dressing and turn up again a few minutes before launch to get the elements going.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on January 21, 2019, 05:14:55 AM
The First Pies:
I made two 12Ē pies the first day and Iím mostly happy I didnít make a mess in the oven. The dough was 100% Caputo Pizzeria (311g), 62% water (185g), 10% starter (40g) and 2.5% salt (8.3g). They fermented ca. 24 hours, first 12h in 15C and then I took them out to RT, which was around 22C/72F. If anything, they were maybe fermented a bit on the far side, but not too bad. I had one sitting on wood the entire time and one on wood for 12 hours then 12 hours on plastic so I could monitor the bottom of the dough. The one sitting on wood was very nice to work with and needed hardly any bench flour, but Iíll do 12 plastic + 12 wood next time and use a pluviometer. The second needed a bit more flour since it was stickier. The top was sticky on both, which I worried would be a problem when I opened the dough if the sticky parts were pulled to the edges and caught the bench or peel. Iíll see what I can do with the top stickiness, maybe ferment in entirely wooden boxes the last 12 hours. The doughs opened pretty well with a reasonable amount of resistance. Iím still a rookie a opening doughs into skins, but slowly improving.

After 60 minutes heating I turned the upper element down to 400C before I started opening the dough. Before dressing I left the door open 30 seconds and turned the thermostat up to 450C two minutes before launch. I didnít touch the lower thermostat, but I might try lowering it next time, or turning it off some time before launch. The bottom didnít have a very charred taste, but did blacken more than I wanted.

One margherita and one white with fennel salami. The first I launched too close to the door and ended up undercooked at one side. I didnít think about turning it until later. The second was launched farther in, but still cooked faster at the inner most part. I might want to turn the pies during bake. Much experimentation to come.

The Results:
Iím reasonably happy with the pies. They were unevenly baked, but tasted OK. The white one was a bit on the heavy side for my taste with the creme fraiche and salami. Iím a much bigger fan of acidity and bright tastes, but my girlfriend prefer the fattier and richer stuff. This was my first time with the Caputo flour, but it behaved pretty similarly to the flour Iíve been using before.

Day Two:
Planned to make a single marinara and all wen well until it snagged on the middle of the pie during launch and the disaster happened. Ended up with a somewhat edible half-assed calzone and lots of topping left in the oven. I've just turned on the heating again to pyrolyse it...  :( This still remains my biggest problem when making pizza. Most likely to do with dough management, handling or launching, but I'll also get some sand paper and sand the peel better. I used some 600 grit, but it's still got a somewhat rough surface in my opinion. I might go up to 1500. The sticky dough is something to address, and opening of the dough. It doesn't tear, but get's really thin in the middle and I don't think it takes a lot of resistance when topping is added. Don't know if I'm stretching it too thing and leaving too much on the cornicone or if it's just poor technique and a rough peel.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: sk on January 21, 2019, 09:15:08 AM
Heikjo:  So glad to hear you are making NP pizzas now!  Your inspirational pizza makers are the same as mine.  So much to learn from them.  Thank you for the details on the dough.  I often end up with dough that looks and acts much like yours. 

Regarding the dough on wood.  Can you explain that a bit more.  What sort of wood.  Is it simpy like a small board.  How do you cover the top or keep it from drying out?

I am also interested in how you overcome the dough getting so thin in the middle.  I'm sure for me it's more technique than dough formula but I will be interested in your adventures.

Curious why you think the dough was a bit overfermented but opened with a reasonable amount of resistance.  Being a rookie, I am not totally sure how to judge over or under fermentation. 

I'm excited to follow your posts!
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on January 21, 2019, 09:32:19 AM
Heikjo:  So glad to hear you are making NP pizzas now!  Your inspirational pizza makers are the same as mine.  So much to learn from them.  Thank you for the details on the dough.  I often end up with dough that looks and acts much like yours. 

Regarding the dough on wood.  Can you explain that a bit more.  What sort of wood.  Is it simpy like a small board.  How do you cover the top or keep it from drying out?

I am also interested in how you overcome the dough getting so thin in the middle.  I'm sure for me it's more technique than dough formula but I will be interested in your adventures.

Curious why you think the dough was a bit overfermented but opened with a reasonable amount of resistance.  Being a rookie, I am not totally sure how to judge over or under fermentation. 

I'm excited to follow your posts!
Thank you. :)

I'm using pine since that is what I got hold off for now. It's just a small piece of 1cm thick wooden board that I put the dough on and then cover with a plastic or glass bowl. At some point I'll look for plastic boxes that fits perfectly in my wine cooler and I can use for both stages. First with the dough just in the box, then when 12 hours are left I remove the dough, re-ball it, put in a wooden board, put the dough on it, close the box and put it in the cooler again. I never have problems with the top drying out but rather it being too sticky. I wonder if a box made completely of wood would help dry it out a little compared to a wooden board inside a plastic box.

Regarding the dough, there are a lot of variables and possible outcomes. The last dough today had reached 30 in my pluviometer, and I think they work a bit better around 25. It had only been sitting on wood for 6 or so hours after re-balling, but the timing there depends on a lot of things. There is a pretty large window where a dough is fine to use, but to avoid disasters I want to aim at the ideal point as often as possible. Judging fermentation is very difficult, which is why I like the pluviometer. It gives me a goo reference point. There is still the intricacities of the sourdough starter, how it was fed, when it was fed etc. which also plays a part and one that you can't measure in volume. The acidity of the sourdough affects the handling of the dough.

I'm fairly sure that how I open the dough is a big part of it, but it's difficult to know how to do it right and how the dough should feel. My way of thinking is that the closer I get to ideal, the less likely disasters are to happen. And above all else I do not want the first pie of the evening to stick to the peel and create a mess that renders the oven unusable for many hours when I got guests and 10 doughs ready and waiting. So I want to attack the problems from all angles I can think of.

I did a bit of sanding on the peel today and I can get it a lot better. I starter with 600, but switched to 240 just to get down to the deepest crevices. I think 240->400->600 and some wet 600 in the end could be good. Unfortunately I don't have a machine to do it, so I'm currently relying on manual labor.

I think I need to find or buy a wooden brush so I can sweep out the charred remains before next time. ;)
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Yael on January 21, 2019, 06:24:21 PM
Hello Heikjo,

You must be more than happy to finally get your oven  :chef:

I would say that you want to wait till your dough ball seems very puffy before baking (let's say after a proofing period). It seems to me that you didn't have a great spring oven because of that, as if your dough was a little under-fermented!

Thank you for sharing anyway!
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on January 22, 2019, 03:47:10 AM
I would say that you want to wait till your dough ball seems very puffy before baking (let's say after a proofing period). It seems to me that you didn't have a great spring oven because of that, as if your dough was a little under-fermented!
They might have been, I didn't have too much control over the first two doughs and they wasn't treated ideally. The last one (without photo) seemed to puff better on the parts that didn't become entangled with the rest. One of my best pies ever were made with a dough that was well past what I would call ideal fermentation, at least from a handling perspective. They certainly don't get worse by sitting a bit longer. I've seen some photos of doughs cut open towards the end of fermentation with lots of holes and activity, then you got some that are just a flat disc with no significant amount of air bubbles. It might even be wrong calling something under- and over-fermented when it's still within the large window of useability. I definitely want those well-fermented doughs, but I'm also a bit hesistant because of the snagging risks during launch. Which is why I still use some bench flour and cornmeal on the peel. I hope one day to reach Craig's levels of flour amount, but it won't happen overnight.

I think the starter is working fine, it seems to do so in the starter jar. My bread doughs aren't as puffy these days either, but that could be more because of the lower winter temperature.

I just got back from work and Christmas holidays and these were my first pies since too long, so it takes a bit to get back into it. We're refurbishing a room this week, so I won't be making pizza every day, but I'll try to squeeze in as many as I can. Experience and more pizza is what I need.

I love that the oven practically cleans itself with the high temperatures. I had sauce and topping spread out on the stone, let the oven run a while longer and just brushed it out later.

Here's a macro photo of my wood peel. First showing how it looked at delivery and then after sanding with 240 grit for a bit. I might have to do more 240 to get down into it and then gradually increase grit.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Hanglow on January 22, 2019, 04:30:31 AM
That picture makes me want to sand my peels, they are rather rough at the moment :D. I've been using remilled semolina flour, it's very forgiving and falls off the dough better than 00 wheat flour when shaping and launching.

 I'll be interested in following your progress, I've just recently done some more sourdough pizzas for the first time in quite a while and want to do more of them
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Yael on January 22, 2019, 04:32:32 AM
[...]It might even be wrong calling something under- and over-fermented when it's still within the large window of useability.
[...]

I get your meaning, and maybe I didn't find the best words to describe what I meant, but Italian pizzaioli usually really want to use the dough during its last moment of life, when it starts to bubble.

I don't know how Craig peel the pizza, I also heard he doesn't use a lot of dusting flour (if none at all), of course this is the best. It will come soon ;)
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on January 22, 2019, 05:09:19 AM
That picture makes me want to sand my peels, they are rather rough at the moment :D. I've been using remilled semolina flour, it's very forgiving and falls off the dough better than 00 wheat flour when shaping and launching.

I'll be interested in following your progress, I've just recently done some more sourdough pizzas for the first time in quite a while and want to do more of them
This peel was pretty rough when I got it, but it was also pretty cheap so I suppose I couldn't expect it to be too smooth. I don't plan to treat it in any way. I read a post by BrickStoneOven (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17495.0) mentioning he had a treated peel that he wasn't too happy with, but which worked a lot better after sanding with 1500.

I get your meaning, and maybe I didn't find the best words to describe what I meant, but Italian pizzaioli usually really want to use the dough during its last moment of life, when it starts to bubble.
I understand and I agree. The well-fermented doughs has always been my favourites in flavour and texture. Hopefully when I get everything else in the process working better, I can get away with those kind of doughs. Pizzadaheim's photos of his doughs has always intrigued me: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=53437.msg554866#msg554866

I don't know how Craig peel the pizza, I also heard he doesn't use a lot of dusting flour (if none at all), of course this is the best. It will come soon ;)
Yeah, the only reason I want to use less bench flour is to avoid the taste from the flour in the pizza.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on January 22, 2019, 04:05:59 PM
I get your meaning, and maybe I didn't find the best words to describe what I meant, but Italian pizzaioli usually really want to use the dough during its last moment of life, when it starts to bubble.
I was thinking a bit more about this today and after looking at pizzadaheim's video (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=53437.msg543579#msg543579) of opening a ball, I've thought that maybe my doughs has had too much resistance and needed too much force to open. What I usually do is press down the dough, press out a cornicone and then try to expand the dics, but I often think that the cornicone ends up with too much dough and the more I work it, the thinner the middle gets, while the cornicone doesn't yield as easily. Then when I finish with lifting the skin on my knuckles, the center is stretched even thinner. A dough that's well fermented and bubbly and has been balled 12 hours before is loose and easy to work with. There is at the same time maybe more of a risk of stretching the dough too far, but if I can manage the dough hydration, avoid stickiness and be gentle when opening, the well-fermented dough might better let itself open to a skin than one less-fermented a more taut.

I got two doughs in bulk in the cooler now. I plan to make them tomorrow evening if all goes well. Maybe take them out to a higher temperature after 12 hours to get a more fermented dough.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Yael on January 22, 2019, 09:41:31 PM
Look this extract (enclosed pic) from Accademia Pizzaioli pizza class, of which I am... let's say "sous-instructor" and translator of the Italian chef here in China, you see where he drew the arrow (green). It's right before the dough bursts. Actually I didn't know either it was that late in the fermentation, I didn't dare to wait too much because there's the risk of passing the point of no return... but I've been making it afterwards and the result makes quite a difference.

If your dough has too much resistance, you can indeed try a sooner balling, a higher hydration, or a shorter kneading.
How long before baking do you make balls?
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on January 23, 2019, 05:34:10 AM
Look this extract (enclosed pic) from Accademia Pizzaioli pizza class, of which I am... let's say "sous-instructor" and translator of the Italian chef here in China, you see where he drew the arrow (green). It's right before the dough bursts. Actually I didn't know either it was that late in the fermentation, I didn't dare to wait too much because there's the risk of passing the point of no return... but I've been making it afterwards and the result makes quite a difference.

If your dough has too much resistance, you can indeed try a sooner balling, a higher hydration, or a shorter kneading.
How long before baking do you make balls?
I like that drawing, thank you. ;) I'm probably well on the left side of the green arrow. By the dough bursting, does it mean the point where it has reached a limit in volume and past that point will start to lose volume and deflate? I've had some bread doughs get there, but not sure about pizza. I have had some doughs that were really far and airy, but they were only in plastic containers, ended up pretty sticky and easy to tear. I've also been afraid of launch failures when using dough that's fermented close to the point of no return.

Maybe I should try making a dough, putting a webcam in front of it and let it record from start to finish to see what happens. Maybe put a pluviometer next to it for some future reference.

I just got the oven, so I've only done 24 hour doughs so far, where I ball after 12 hours and place the balls on wood (still in plastic containers). Once I get things going, I'll go back to my usual method, wihch is 36 hours bulk + 12 hours in balls (or re-balled) on wood. The balls I used on my first few attempts did not fit this schedule and had less time in balls. It's been a bit busy the last days, so I haven't had the time to really focus on it. Switching to a new flour also takes some time getting used to the fermentation progress. I'll make two doughs tonight that I plan to ferment for 48 hours.

I've not really been kneading the dough much with the method I use now. I just mix it, let it sit 10 minutes, then do a small bit of kneading, maybe 10 more minutes rest, a minute of kneading then to bulk fermentation.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Yael on January 23, 2019, 06:43:35 AM
All the problems you are talking about I also experience them, I think you don't have so many troubles actually. It's more about adjustments. It needs a few batches to get the best of your dough, so at home, because I assume you don't eat pizza every day  ;D, it takes a little bit longer to get there - same for me, I don't run restaurants anymore, so when I make tests sometimes they don't give me the best results at first.

Pictures or video would help indeed, maybe there's nothing wrong  ::)

12H seem a little bit long to me... This is a topic that I often see in the forum, but I don't recall having read "the right time" about it, just I can only say about my own experience...
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on January 23, 2019, 07:09:40 AM
All the problems you are talking about I also experience them, I think you don't have so many troubles actually. It's more about adjustments. It needs a few batches to get the best of your dough, so at home, because I assume you don't eat pizza every day  ;D, it takes a little bit longer to get there - same for me, I don't run restaurants anymore, so when I make tests sometimes they don't give me the best results at first.

Pictures or video would help indeed, maybe there's nothing wrong  ::)

12H seem a little bit long to me... This is a topic that I often see in the forum, but I don't recall having read "the right time" about it, just I can only say about my own experience...
I will probably make more pizza than is good for me now that I got the new oven.  :D

I just have to keep working on it and making notes on what I did and what the result was. I will post some photos and videos later. I don't think there is a solution that works for everyone, so I just have to experiment try to improve it. Especially when working with sourdough you have to find what works for you. I see most use 4-12 hours in balls, but there are so many other parameters that can affect how the dough ends up. Like how far it's fermented, like in the drawing you posted. Someone using the dough at an earlier stage in the fermentation might want a longer time in balls since the dough is more taut at that stage. Someone using the dough closer to the green arrow might not want more than 4-6 hours since the dough is already pretty soft and extends easily.

A photo a took of my starter yesterday. Not sure if it had peaked here, but not too far off at least.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 23, 2019, 07:33:41 AM
I don't know how Craig peel the pizza, I also heard he doesn't use a lot of dusting flour (if none at all), of course this is the best. It will come soon ;)

Wood dough boxes.

It makes a difference. The other day, I made a couple pies and rather than the wood boxes, I used plastic bags because I wanted to do a CF experiment. The first thing my son said was 'there is a lot of flour on the bottom.'  :-D   
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 23, 2019, 07:38:30 AM
This peel was pretty rough when I got it, but it was also pretty cheap so I suppose I couldn't expect it to be too smooth. I don't plan to treat it in any way. I read a post by BrickStoneOven (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17495.0) mentioning he had a treated peel that he wasn't too happy with, but which worked a lot better after sanding with 1500.

I would have thought smoother was better, but I'm really not sure how much difference it makes. I use a couple different wood peels from time to time and none of them are particularly smooth, and they may actually be a bit easier to launch from than aluminum other than that they weight more. A while back I was at a pizzeria and I noted that the peels looked kind of like the surface of the moon. I would have thought it would have been a nightmare to work with them but the pies floated right off into the oven. I think I remember from back in physics class that making surfaces exceptionally smooth can actually increase the friction between them.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on January 23, 2019, 07:41:09 AM
Wood dough boxes.

It makes a difference. The other day, I made a couple pies and rather than the wood boxes, I used plastic bags because I wanted to do a CF experiment. The first thing my son said was 'there is a lot of flour on the bottom.'  :-D   
Does it make a difference if the entire box is wood compared to just the bottom in a plastic box? My doughs are often sticky on the top when I ferment on a wooden board in a plastic container. Would it help if the entire box was in wood so the moisture in the box isn't sealed in there as plastic does? It would be for the phase in balls, last 8-12 hours. I often need to add some flour to the surface when opening, and don't really want that. There is a lot of small drops of water on the inside of the plastic containers and I imagine that might be less of an issue in a box made entirely of wood.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 23, 2019, 07:43:50 AM
I hadn't thought about it like that, but it probably does make a difference not just from the fact that the wood might absorb some moisture from the air but maybe more so in that the boxes don't seal up as tight as typical plastic boxes - at least mine don't.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on January 23, 2019, 08:13:55 AM
I would have thought smoother was better, but I'm really not sure how much difference it makes. I use a couple different wood peels from time to time and none of them are particularly smooth, and they may actually be a bit easier to launch from than aluminum other than that they weight more. A while back I was at a pizzeria and I noted that the peels looked kind of like the surface of the moon. I would have thought it would have been a nightmare to work with them but the pies floated right off into the oven. I think I remember from back in physics class that making surfaces exceptionally smooth can actually increase the friction between them.
I can see that being true. One probably has to study the surfaces with a microscope to see what happens. Total friction is the result of all points of contact between dough and surface. Neither will ever be a perfect surface, so they got the hills and valleys. Ideally, I'd think the surfaces needs to be smooth enough that the pies doesn't snag on the wood, but not very much past that point, since an even finer surface may make more points of the dough touch the wood.

I tried to demonstrate with a drawing and how I imagine a smoother surface can increase the points of contact. I don't know if it's true or if the structure of the dough and wood works like that or at what point you possibly might experience more friction. And all said, you probably don't have to go too smooth before the gain in going even smoother becomes very small. If you have a nice and smooth surface and still struggle, it's probably got more to do with the dough and handling than the peel. The reason I want to optimize the peel is allowing me to ferment doughs further and use a higher hydration for better pizzas.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: vtsteve on January 23, 2019, 10:02:51 AM
I usually burnish a new wooden peel with a piece of corrugated cardboard; it smoothes out the surface fuzz without taking off any material, and leaves some of the macro-scale roughness.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on January 23, 2019, 10:55:07 AM
I usually burnish a new wooden peel with a piece of corrugated cardboard; it smoothes out the surface fuzz without taking off any material, and leaves some of the macro-scale roughness.
Yeah, I did use some cardboard the first time around. It's a good idea since you round off the potential sharp parts that can snag rather than cut them off. That could give a surface with less contact points, but still without too many sharp edges.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 23, 2019, 11:25:59 AM
I'm wondering if you have some roughness that can trap and hold some flour, do you get some of the release benefits of flour without having it stick to the bottom of your pizza, or put another way, can you maybe use less flour with a slightly rougher peel? Or, with the same amount of flour, will a bit less stick to the bottom?
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on January 23, 2019, 12:06:29 PM
It might, but maybe the dough picks up some of the flour and ends up getting snagged where the flour was sitting. It could work to sort of rub (very gently) some flour over the surface of the peel to fill up smaller crevices. Might not stick too much to the dough. For this one might want a finer flour than semolina or rice.

I don't think the peel is the biggest problem. I would put more blame on my dough management and handling. For one I have never dressed on the counter and pulled it onto the peel just before launching since I fear that would end up as an even bigger disaster, or that the dough has been so soft that if I tried such a move I feared it would just keep extending and tear off or tear off at some other part of the skin. I've also not dared try this while alone and having to manage both dough and peel at the same time. This is where the fermentation status and timing of balling/re-balling comes into play. The state where the dough is soft enough to be easily opened, but still got enough resistance where it's possible to pull onto the peel.

Fermenting the last 4-12 hours on wood definitely helps on this entire problem, and if I get some wooden boxes to suck up a bit of moisture on the surface of the dough too, most of the problems are hopefully gone. I don't know if it's the dough snagging on sharp parts of the peel as much as a thin part of the dough it sticking after it's been sauced and topped. And that introduces an entirely new issue. When moisture is introduced to the wood, hairs will stand up and act like velcro. If the dough is well dried out by the wood, this is most likely to happen because the area is too thin, the time from the sauce is added to the pie is launched is too long or you create a rift while adding sauce. I have used some thicker sauces based on creme fraiche where I had to smear it out. That is not the best idea for these kind of pies. Works better for a pan pizza or something, so I make sure to increase the viscosity by adding oil and liquid.

I've seen some videos of experts making pizza and so many of them dunk the entire dough in flour before opening to skins and use lots of flour on the bench. No wonder it looks so easy.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Icelandr on January 23, 2019, 12:55:28 PM
Heikjo, my process for forming and launchinnis similar to yours but somehow with less stress . ..
my peel is cheap, of plywood which occasionally is sanded if I have spilled water on it to raise the grain as it is not treated. Although a woodworker, I donít fuss over the surface, likely it is sanded with 220 grit and wiped down. I dust the peel with flour, then turn the peel on an angle and tap it with my fingers to knock of most of the flour then rub my hand over it removing excess and distributing the small amount left. There is very little left.
Because I make small quantities of dough, usually 3 balls, I still use the Tupperware tubs. I, too, immerse the ball on all sides in the flour I have used to make the dough and then toss it gently back and forth between my palms to shake off the excess (I have a video, though it is not riveting!) and then go through the opening using fingers then slap, usually finishing over knuckles to transfer to the peel. It has been a long time now where I had a black bottom, it has ceased being an issue, as I am confident it will with you as you make more pizza.
You may take all this as the way someone else does things, not the way it should be done.
If any of it helps great, if not  . . . .
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on January 23, 2019, 03:04:57 PM
Congratulations!

It really is a powerful oven, and needs some getting used to :)

I've also had lucifer himself visiting the oven at times when I failed at the pizza incantation, loads of fire and brimstone  >:D  Been thinking of getting a grill brush of some kind to speed up the cleaning process..

Seeing your first pizzas, and the black patches.  I think that happens when one has used too much pressure and created thin areas when forming the pizza, notice how some of the parallel stripes look like fingers pressing down.  I saw that in my early days with the F1 too. :)

One tip, I also used to get thin patches in the middle, so I started leaving the middle just slightly thicker than the surrounding area when opening the ball.  Later when I stretch it, the middle is just perfect.

This is one of my aspirations at the moment, especially watch the first two times he opens it, two different methods, but in each case what was the bottom of the ball, is the bottom of the pizza too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJvKKaYHn3A
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on January 23, 2019, 03:20:00 PM
This is where the fermentation status and timing of balling/re-balling comes into play. The state where the dough is soft enough to be easily opened, but still got enough resistance where it's possible to pull onto the peel.

I've never dressed on the peel, I dress on a granite surface and then drag onto the peel.  My thinking is that this gets more air between the peel and the dough, and that leaving the dough a long time on the peel will just lead to the dough sticking more to it?
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on January 23, 2019, 03:26:41 PM
It needs a few batches to get the best of your dough, so at home, because I assume you don't eat pizza every day  ;D, it takes a little bit longer to get there - same for me, I don't run restaurants anymore, so when I make tests sometimes they don't give me the best results at first.

This is really it...  I can't say that I lament not having to make dough and bake 200 pizzas a day, still I'm quite certain I'd advance a lot faster in the craft :)
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on January 23, 2019, 04:43:31 PM
Because I make small quantities of dough, usually 3 balls, I still use the Tupperware tubs.

I also make a small amount, this is how I age the balls at the moment.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on January 23, 2019, 05:22:48 PM
Today's work all done. This was certainly an improvement from last time.

Recipe:
Flour 100% 362g
Water 60% 208g
Starter 12% 46g
Salt 2.5% 9.6g
TF: 0.0975. [email protected] + [email protected] on wood. Pluvio at launch: 35 mm/m≤.

I wanted to go higher on the fermentation today, so I moved them to 23C when balling. I had planned to do 12+12, but went shopping and forgot about it.

The bottoms were nice and dry, needing hardly any bench flour. I just sprinkled the tiniest bit and spread it out with my hand, you couldn't even see it. Did the same with the peel. The tops were a bit sticky, so I put some small amounts of fluor on my hands and patted them to dry up a bit. I watched some videos of opening doughs today, so I tried a new technique where I first pressed down and out until it wouldn't go further, then pulled at the cornicone with my left hand and held the right hand at the middle of the skin. This way I actually stretched the part just inside the cornicone, rather than everything into the centre. After it was open the center actually had a bit of a bump of dough I had to stretch out a bit. The doughs behaved pretty well, but could be looser. In the videos I've seen, like the one Amolapizza posted, the doughs open really easy and sometimes without them using much force. That'll come when I work on starter amount and time of balling.

The doughs could've been even more fermented, but I was running out of day, so I had to get making. The skins looks pretty patchy and uneven. Not sure if that is all handling or something else too. I got a bit too rough with the pulling and pretty much flattened the cornicone. There were also a lot of large air bubbles forming when I first pushed the dough down, and I popped them with my fingers, leaving the cornicone not too pretty looking. I know those bubbles would just blow up and char before the pies were done, and I don't want that.

I felt pretty confident about the skins, so I dressed on the benchtop and pulled onto the peel. This worked like a charm. The launching was perfect, the pies easily sliding off the peel without much need to work the peel. I left them a bit far out again, but I turned both a few times during baking to get it even. This dragged the baketime out a bit and I probably ended up at 90-120 seconds from launch to pull, including two turnings. Turning them worked well on the aluminium peel, but I might get a 7-8" round peel so I can turn them inside the oven. I've read posts from users on the Italian forum saying they don't have to turn it, so we'll see when I get more experience. I know that there are a few different versions of the oven out there and some modded, some not, so it's a bit difficult to copy someone else's methods.

I took some advice from Amolapizza and his road to Napoli on the oven management. First both thermostats at 450C for 45 minutes, then turned both down to 300C for 10 minutes, then the upper back up to 450C and launching 3 minutes later. I didn't measure deck temperature at launch, but maybe around 450-470. Still a bit burnt on the bottom. I'll get more used to the oven for now, but I find it highly likely that I'll end up changing at least the upper thermostat to a 500C one some day. Chasing those 40-50 second bakes (https://laconfraternitadellapizza.forumfree.it/?t=72475651).

Got a new dough made already, this time planned for 48 hours. Upped the hydration from 60 today to 62%.

The pies tasted pretty good, though the texture left more to be desired. It had a certain chewiness to it, not as delicate as I'd want it to be, and the last one had a slightly hard cornicone, no doubt because the bake extended to 120 seconds. The white pie is still not balanced, but I tried mixing some creme fraiche and cream so I could pour and distribute the sauce rather than smear it on. Taught me something about sauce consistency. I didn't focus on topping at all today. Just used what I had laying around.

The dough texture might improve with higher hydration, longer fermentation and further fermentation. I've seen some discussions about dough texture and achieving lightness that I'll check out.

Heikjo, my process for forming and launchinnis similar to yours but somehow with less stress . ..
my peel is cheap, of plywood which occasionally is sanded if I have spilled water on it to raise the grain as it is not treated. Although a woodworker, I donít fuss over the surface, likely it is sanded with 220 grit and wiped down. I dust the peel with flour, then turn the peel on an angle and tap it with my fingers to knock of most of the flour then rub my hand over it removing excess and distributing the small amount left. There is very little left.
Because I make small quantities of dough, usually 3 balls, I still use the Tupperware tubs. I, too, immerse the ball on all sides in the flour I have used to make the dough and then toss it gently back and forth between my palms to shake off the excess (I have a video, though it is not riveting!) and then go through the opening using fingers then slap, usually finishing over knuckles to transfer to the peel. It has been a long time now where I had a black bottom, it has ceased being an issue, as I am confident it will with you as you make more pizza.
You may take all this as the way someone else does things, not the way it should be done.
If any of it helps great, if not  . . . .
I won't say I stress, but I'm just starting out this journey and got stuff to work on. If anything, I'm a perfectionist and optimizer, for better or worse. I can spend what others would consider insane amount of time on a small detail, not because of the big impact it creates, but for my own satisfaction. ;)

My peel had probably worked pretty good with just the 240 grit sanding and some cardboard after. The important point is that I got it working much better today.

Maybe it's going a bit far with the obsession about not using any bench flour, but that's just how I do it. I know many expert pizzaiolos and great pizza makers in here dump the doughs in a pile of flour and toss them back and forth to get rid of the excess and no doubt making excellent pizzas, but if I can improve something, I'll try. Even if I do use some flour now, it's very small amounts. As I've mentioned, by trying to optimize the consistency of the dough, I might get away with higher hydrations and longer fermentations, possibly leading to better pies as a result, not just to avoid burnt and unhydrated flour. I've been to some restaurants where I get served pies with excess flour on the entire cornicone, and it's not something I'm looking to replicate.

You've probably had your trials too before getting to where you are today, and it's a great feeling when you know your workflow and that things will work out. I'll get there. I appreciate any contributions, suggestions and sharing of ideas. This forum is so great because it's got so many members contributing and sharing. Some things some people pick up, some things they don't. I don't know if there is such a thing as a way it "should be done", but rather a large number of different ways to make great pizza.

Thanks for your thoughts and never be afraid to air them, because I will always appreciate it, even if I don't follow all of them. :)

Congratulations!

It really is a powerful oven, and needs some getting used to :)

I've also had lucifer himself visiting the oven at times when I failed at the pizza incantation, loads of fire and brimstone  >:D  Been thinking of getting a grill brush of some kind to speed up the cleaning process..

Seeing your first pizzas, and the black patches.  I think that happens when one has used too much pressure and created thin areas when forming the pizza, notice how some of the parallel stripes look like fingers pressing down.  I saw that in my early days with the F1 too. :)

One tip, I also used to get thin patches in the middle, so I started leaving the middle just slightly thicker than the surrounding area when opening the ball.  Later when I stretch it, the middle is just perfect.

This is one of my aspirations at the moment, especially watch the first two times he opens it, two different methods, but in each case what was the bottom of the ball, is the bottom of the pizza too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJvKKaYHn3A
Thank you!

After five pies I'm pretty satisfied so far. The reason it's gone somewhat OK is my experience with pizzas the last 3 years after and all the info and help I've found on the forum. I didn't even know what a neapolitan was before coming here.

Yeah, my handling and opening of the balls certainly needs some work, as evidenced by the skin photo. Maybe I'm using too much fingertips. I got the middle much better today, it was actually a bit too thick when I first considered it done. Thanks for the video. There are a few of these videos around, but I can always find something new and useful. Would've been cool if someone filmed a proper opening of a neapolitan dough with a good camera in good lighting, maybe even with some slow motion stuff going on. I've become more aware of the dough handling these past days and will work more on it along with improving the dough.

The bottom of the ball is always the bottom of the pizzas now that I started fermenting on wood. I have to say though, those doughs in the video don't look fermented too far. Either I'm missing something, it's different with yeast or they are a long way from the green arrow Yael posted. Not saying either is correct or wrong, just that there are many ways to make pizza and that a dough has a pretty large window of usability.

I've never dressed on the peel, I dress on a granite surface and then drag onto the peel.  My thinking is that this gets more air between the peel and the dough, and that leaving the dough a long time on the peel will just lead to the dough sticking more to it?
You're absotutely right. I've known a long time I shouldn't be doing it, but I never got around to really try it. The less time the pie spends on the peel the better. It worked out great today, so that's something I will keep doing.

I also make a small amount, this is how I age the balls at the moment.
That is pretty much exactly how I do it too now. I tried some balls last year that sat on wood the entire time, but that dried them out too much. Putting them on wood when balling or re-balling is a pretty good timing. I think I'll try some wooden boxes too, to dry out the entire balls a bit and need even less flour.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Yael on January 23, 2019, 07:42:30 PM
Wood dough boxes.

It makes a difference. The other day, I made a couple pies and rather than the wood boxes, I used plastic bags because I wanted to do a CF experiment. The first thing my son said was 'there is a lot of flour on the bottom.'  :-D

Indeed, I tried wooden boxes a couple of months ago for a photo shooting (it wasn't a real dough box though, just a wine box  :angel:), and the dough was dry. It surprised me because I didn't know before! Actually, combined with the Tį of the kitchen with the gas dome oven next to it, the dough ended up a little bit too dry. I guess it would need a wetter environment.
The dough has had a bulk fermentation in plastic dough container, and the last hours in the wooden box. I don't remember how long in the wooden box... If I recall well it was the morning for the afternoon (7~9H maybe), total around 24H.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on January 24, 2019, 07:01:04 AM
Not that I've done it myself, nor do I endorse it :)

Still on La Confraternita della Pizza (https://laconfraternitadellapizza.forumfree.it/?t=76342865) they are saying that one can recalibrate the thermostat by removing the dial and then turning a "ring" with pointy pliers.  Turn anti clockwise to make it turn off at a higher temperature.

https://image.forumfree.it/1/0/9/4/1/0/3/9/1545078820.jpg
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on January 24, 2019, 07:42:10 AM
Thanks for that. Something to try one day maybe. The thermostats might be the same, but with different setpoints. I saw someone on the forum thought about asking the manufacturer of the thermostats if that was the case.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on January 25, 2019, 04:26:38 PM
Two pies today.

I made some kind of mistake when making the dough, but don't know how. For some reason, the amounts in the recipe didn't match what I got from the calculator when putting in the percentages. If I actually added what I wrote in the book, I think it came out something like this:

Flour 375g
Water 236g
Starter 13.3g
Salt 9.5g

The idea was 62% hydration, but I ended up with 63.5%. The ball rested 2x10m after mixing with some small amounts of kneading after each break. Fermentation plan was 36+12. I wanted to speed it up a bit so after 40 hours I took them out to RT (22C). At the time of bake the pluvio was at 30.

I'm still not quite getting the opening of the balls I think. Are there any good photos on this forum of an undressed skin after a 48 hour sourdough fermentation? I feel like mine is too spotty and uneven, leaving some parts really thin. Maybe it's how it's supposed to be? I seem to remember that the CF IDY pies I made with machine mixing were almost perfectly even when I opened them. Perhaps it's just the nature of sourdough.

The doughs were softer this time, but still had some resistance to them. Taking them out from the cooler hours before baking is not ideal, I prefer the way they handle at 15C, so the goal is to find a recipe where I keep them in there the entire time. The tops were really sticky, so I had to dust them with some flour. Some parts were so thin, I was getting worried when opening them. After dressing the first it had started to stick a bit to the countertop and I thought "there's my first calzone", but I pulled a bit on the edges and somehow managed to pull into onto the peel and get it into the oven. It came off the peel pretty nice, so I'm really happy I've started dressing on the countertop. It would have stuck to the peel for sure if I'd dressed on it.

I did a small modification on the oven today after Amolapizza pointed me to it. It's simply to turn a ring on upper the thermostat, which apparently changes it's operating range. As default, the thermostat will click when I've turned it halfways towards 50C, which makes sense in a room with 22C. After adjusting this ring, the thermostat clicks (closes the switch) a few degrees from zero. This apparently shifts the entire range, and I get higher temperatures at the upper range. My logic would say that I've changed it around 20C, but I don't know exactly. It did get pretty hot in there, I measured over 530C at one point.

I also followed Amolapizza's oven method. Everything to max for 30 minutes, then turn the lower element completely off and the upper down to "350" as it says on the sticker, which might be more around 370-400 now. After 15 minutes I turn the upper element back to max and launch 4 minutes later while the upper element is red hot.

The first pie wasn't quite successful. I was so focused on getting the pie in the oven that I forgot to add the cheese... A part of the middle started ballooning so I opened the door and knocked it down with the peel. I also turned the pie once. It probably took 90s from start to finish, then I noticed there was no cheese, so I put the cheese on and domed it 20 seconds so it would melt a little bit. The crust and bottom ended up a bit chewy.

Second one was really good. I remembered the cheese, the dressed pie logistics worked fine and I got it cooked it 60 seconds from it hit the stone until it was out, and that included a trip outside where I turned it 180 degrees. This one had a lovely texture and was the most delicate I've made so far. From last time I found out that 60g of mozzarella is about enough for a 12" pie, so that's what I used. They were both white today since my GF is pregnant in the 9th month and has heartburn. Bought a nice ham, added some salt and pepper, parmesan and arugula post bake. It was pretty good, but I long for the tomatoes.

The crust is getting a lot of contrast, but I'd rather have an even browning. The leoparding makes me take it out of the oven, but most parts of the crust is quite white. This dough was 22C when launched, so I'm not sure what is the reason for that. Any ideas? I've seen many great looking pies with a nice even, brown crust, but without too much lepoarding. Is it a dough thing, oven thing or both?

I've started drawing some plans for my wooden proofing boxes. I definitely want something that can dry out the top of the doughs a bit. The doughs today were maybe extra sticky because I messed up the recipe. I'll probably stick to 25-30 on the pluvio for now until I get the other things sorted out. Will increase the starter a bit next time.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on January 25, 2019, 05:02:30 PM
Nice looking pie!

Hope you're happy with the tweak :)  FWIW, with my EGO 508C thermostat, the max I've measured with an IR gun on the biscotto (with lower off and upper on max) is 537C.  Not that I've tested a lot.  Mentally I just add 50C to what the upper label says.

I've noticed that white sauced are a lot whiter on the rim too...  Don't know why.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on January 26, 2019, 03:33:29 AM
Thanks. Don't know if I'm done with it or if I'll consider getting a new thermostat. I follow some discussions on the Italian forum and see where I end up. Having the thermostat off for 15 minutes seems quite long, but maybe it's insulated well enough. It makes sure the upper element is firing when you bake, but is the ambient temperature in the oven as high as it can be? I would say it comes to to three factors. The stone temperature, the ambient temperature and if the upper element is constantly on or not.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on January 30, 2019, 07:30:50 AM
From a couple of days ago. I adjusted the ring of the thermostat on the oven a little and gained maybe 20-25C. I don't know if the thermostat actually goes to 450 or 466 stock, so it might be closer to 500C now. I'll do some more testing with the IR, but not quite sure what EMS I should use for the clay stone (biscotto). The pie baked in 60 seconds, which I'd say means something is different. I also tried turning i even higher, but at that setting the safety thermostat turned it off after a few minutes.

I also tried folding the dough before the reballing like Irishboy here (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=55083.msg562872#msg562872). Don't really know if I did it right or what effect it made. Still had some thinner spots and some thicker, but I think that's more to do with my technique than the dough. I still think it is a bit more rough and uneven than it could have been, but I don't actually know.

The dough handled pretty well, could still be looser. 62% HR, 4% starter. Tried a marinara, but it wasn't my best pie. Something with the sauce didn't quite work out. Didn't use any bench flour for the bottom, so there's that. Still needed a little for the top of the ball.

I didn't turn the pie this time to see what happened. As expected it baked faster on the innermost part. Not sure what the best way to go about it would be. To leave it in for 50 seconds and turn in the end, or do 30s/30s. Just have to keep trying.

Oven management:
TimeUpperLower
30mMaxMax
15m400COff
6mMaxOff
LaunchMaxOff

I planned to re-heat for 3-4 minutes after the 15 minutes off, but forgot to open the dough and ended up heating for 5-6 minutes and the bottom was quite charred. Next time I will make sure the skin is opened before I turn the thermostat on again. This is the method I learned from AmoLaPizza, but maybe 3-4 minutes is a bit much since my upper element is 200W more powerful. 2-3 might work better.

I'm also wondering how much the ambient temperature matters compared to the upper element. Maybe I'll try turning both thermostats to 450C for 30-45 minutes until it stabilize (lower might not reach it in that time), and if the stone is 450-460, switch the lower off and the upper to max and try launching right away. I don't want to measure temperature too much right before launch since I lose heat every time the door is opened. Maybe I'll just do some testing without baking before launching the pie next time.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on January 30, 2019, 03:19:59 PM
More pizza.  :pizza:

62% HR, 4.5% starter, 2.5% salt. [email protected][email protected] Timings don't work too well when baking at 3PM. I folded and reballed at 11PM, which meant 16 hours on wood. That's too long since the ball developed some areas which dried out. Maybe I'll just reball when there's 16 hours left and move it to wood in the morning so it gets 7-8 hours on wood. Could maybe reball in the morning too, but right now the balls are pretty tight, so I'm not too keen on making them tighter. Maybe I'll just plan them for the evenings instead.

Tried the folding technique again, and I'm wonder if that makes them too tight. The skin was very elastic and needed some work to open. That might be a good thing in some ways, but I wonder if it might not hurt the dough a bit when I need to use too much force. I think I'll leave that technique for some other time. Right now I'm still experimenting on the recipe. I also wondered if having the dough at 15C was hurting me a little and that it might be easier to work with at 20C, but that may also have to do with the folding.

Tried some stuff with the oven, ended up having he thermostats at 350 (upper) and 450 (lower) for some time. This gave 450-490C on the stone, depending on where in the cycle of the upper thermostat. I then put the upper to 450 and launched two minutes later when the element was red hot. Turned the pie around after 30s, but it was quite large so I spent 15s getting it around. Might start thinking about getting a 7-8" round metal peel for turning inside the oven, but I'm not even sure I could've turned that one inside or if i had got stuck between the walls. Don't know if I can do that faster, but it would at least keep the pie in the oven.

Bottom still a bit black, don't know if it's still too hot on the stone or if it's because the skin is so thin. Topside was fine, maybe a bit more time needed on one side. I wasn't thrilled with the texture of the dough though. It tasted fine, but was pretty chewy, not soft and delicate. This could also be a side-effect of the folding, but the pies I've made with just a normal reball has also been somewhat tough. I still haven't baked a pie where the dough was pretty relaxed and soft, so it might have to do with that. I'll keep working on my recipe and dough management. Read some comments in this topic about dough temps around 62-65F was good for doughs with higher hydration. I might try increasing HR to see where I can get it, so it might work well at 15C/59F.

First picture is after 31 hours when I reballed. Third of the dough before opening, wasn't quite in focus. Ended up with a larger pie than usual since it needed some work to open and became a bit lopsided.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 30, 2019, 03:44:19 PM
I like the look of the sauce and cheese a lot.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: ButteredPizza on January 30, 2019, 05:32:42 PM
They were both white today since my GF is pregnant in the 9th month and has heartburn. Bought a nice ham, added some salt and pepper, parmesan and arugula post bake. It was pretty good, but I long for the tomatoes.
I'm neither pregnant nor do I have issues with tomatoes :P  but thought I would share: I get terrible acid reflux / heartburn if the dough is under fermented before baking. 
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: mmille24 on January 31, 2019, 04:51:43 PM
I like the look of the sauce and cheese a lot.

Same. Perfect.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on February 03, 2019, 08:54:54 AM
Happy to hear it, Craig and mmille24. The sauce and cheese was the best part of the pie.

Made a few on Friday. Two whites with a sauce I found in a book using creme fraiche, a little white wine, olive oil and some spices. Topped with mozzarella, cheddar, Jarlsberg (Norwegian type, somewhat similar to Gouda), and some boletus mushrooms. Not quite mushroom season with half a meter of snow outside, but we found a pack of dried ones that we hydrated. It should've had some blue cheese too, but we didn't risk it what with the pregnancy.

First pie was a bit slow. I tried 30 minutes at 450/450, then 15 minutes at 350/300, then back on for 2 minutes before launch. Oven was probably just a little too cold. Next ones I went 400/350 then 450/300 2 minutes before launch, which worked better. The bottom still slightly more burned than I'd want to. Not sure how to operate the oven to get both high ambient temp, red hot upper element, but not too hot stone. The bottom being pretty thin might be part of the reason.

I tried waiting 30 rest minutes after the intial mix, a little bit of kneading, 30 minutes rest, a little kneading, then bulk ferment. Not sure if it does anything. I still don't like the look of the balls after reballing. Tried flipping them this time, putting the smoothest side on the bottom.The top part still becomes a part of the middle bottom, so I don't know if it does anything. The balls looks so shaggy and stringy after reballing. When reballing they are quite nice to work with, but still a bit more resistant when opening to skins than I'd maybe like. This is with reballing 12 hours before bake. I'm tempted to try reballing even sooner.

The last pie was not very successful. After dressing the pie I noticed I'd forgotten to turn the upper element up, so I turned it up and waited a minute or so, but when transferring to the peel the thinnest parts started to tear. It probably ended up better than I'd deserved. The biggest problem obviously being me letting it sit there a minute, but also maybe the middle being a bit thin. I thought it was a bit too thin before dressing. I use 270g dough balls and I've seen some use 220g balls. I wonder if they put less dough in the cornicione. Still not happy with my ball opening technique.

The white ones were pretty good and the crust was softer this time. Don't know if it was due to more starter (pluviometer read 36 at opening), more water or a combination, but I like it.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Hanglow on February 03, 2019, 11:11:18 AM
How did you like using the rehydrated mushrooms?   I've got loads of dried mushrooms from last season but I've not used them on pizza, they tend to end up in stews

the white pizzas look great, the margherita more like one of mine  :-D bet it still tasted good
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on February 03, 2019, 12:09:39 PM
How did you like using the rehydrated mushrooms?   I've got loads of dried mushrooms from last season but I've not used them on pizza, they tend to end up in stews

the white pizzas look great, the margherita more like one of mine  :-D bet it still tasted good
They worked fine. I assume not as vibrant in taste as fresh ones, but I liked it.

The part we actually could ate was alright on the margherita. Had to cut off 1/4 of the crust that had uncooked dough in it.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: sk on February 03, 2019, 01:39:43 PM
How did you like using the rehydrated mushrooms?   I've got loads of dried mushrooms from last season but I've not used them on pizza, they tend to end up in stew
Hanglow:  How do you dry your mushrooms?  In a good year, I can find plenty of chanterelles.  I tried freezing them once but that did not work out to well.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Hanglow on February 03, 2019, 04:42:29 PM
Hanglow:  How do you dry your mushrooms?  In a good year, I can find plenty of chanterelles.  I tried freezing them once but that did not work out to well.

I use a cheap dehydrator I bought off ebay for about £40. It has five levels I think and will dry mushrooms in 4 hours or so. I've also used it to dry fruits, hops and jerky.  Would recommend one!


Some mushrooms don't dry well though, chantarelles are probably one of them - I would dry fry them to get rid of most of the moisture (there are youtube videos of this ) then freeze them or simply make up a mushroom sauce/stock recipe  with them and freeze that
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Jackitup on February 03, 2019, 10:30:12 PM
My son in law and I share this one, hands down best bang for the buck dehydrator out there. As good as an Excalibur and almost 1/4 the price!!! I think I seen it on Cabelas for even less than Webstaurant Store!

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/weston-75-0201-w-10-tray-food-dehydrator/943750201W.html
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: sk on February 04, 2019, 08:39:10 AM
Great advice.  Thank you.  I have a dehydrator, just never used it for mushrooms.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on February 04, 2019, 05:00:46 PM
Made one pie tonight and it wasn't a great one. 64% HR, 5% starter, 51 hours at 15C. Reballed 21 hours before bake, put on wood around 12 hours before.

The earlier reballing made a difference and the ball was quite easy to open. Still got some of the very thin parts and the bottom was pretty uneven. Launch went fine, but a part tore as I moved from benchtop to peel, even if I didn't waste a second. I don't think I'll ever feel overly confident as long as I'm getting those thin areas. Haven't figured out what is causing it or how to fix it yet. I won't increase the starter more now. I don't think that will be helping me. I've considered making a few IDY pies to see how they come out. Also wondered if I should try machine kneading a dough to see if it makes a difference.

Tonight's pie didn't look too bad, but it wasn't properly cooked. I suspect the reason might be too low temperature on the stone. I've been trying to launch with a lower stone temp to avoid the burned spots, but today I had burned spots on the bottom, a finished topside, 70s bake, yet the pie had parts that weren't properly cooked. My theory is that the burned spots are a result of the unevenness on the skin rather than too high stone temperature, and that I had too low stone temperature today. If I'd be able to do it, it would be interesting to snap a photo of the skin before dressing with some light source behind it so you can identify thicker and thinner areas and then photo the bottom of the pie after bake to see if the same pattern occured and if the burned areas correspond with the thin areas. I'd think it would. Not that it would help getting closer to solving the issue.

Some notes for myself:
- 2-4 S&F with rests between after mixing for smoother dough.
- Open 10" before dressing, last 2" after it's on the peel to get that dough from the cornicone rather than the middle.
- Higher stone temp.
- 4% starter [email protected] makes for around 26 mm/m≤. Pluvio tip to get ball to the bottom (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=clJyWbNr8GE&feature=youtu.be&t=241).
- IDY and Ischia
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on February 07, 2019, 06:47:09 AM
First one in the photos is from last time when it was undercooked. Last one from yesterday went pretty well I think. The oven was managed similar to in the first pies. 30-40m at max, 15m lower at 300 and upper at 400, 3 minutes upper at max and launch. Pie was well cooked in about 70s, including a turn outside. Parts of the sauce and cheese slid down when I lifted the pie for the bottom shot, which is why it got that bright spot. Tried a few new things on this one.

- More kneading. I kneaded it 3-4 minutes twice with 10 minutes between. The ball was certainly smoother and softer than it usually is. It might be too much, so I'll try stretching and folding instead. This might help some with the uneven bottoms.

- 65% hydration. It's pretty wet after the first mix, but after a 10 minute rest it's perfectly fine to handle.

- Opening skin to 80%, dress, drag on peel, open last 20%. I think this is a good way to avoid too thin middle. I'm struggling with 270g balls for 12", and people use down to 200-220g balls. Maybe those end up with less dough in the cornicione, but still. Found this tip by Craig somewhere. The best way for me to pick up these little nuggets is to just read Craig's topics or go through his posting history. There's just so much useful information that pertains to me.

I get it open to 8", then I just won't easily let itself be opened more. A rest would probably help, but I'd like the dough to be soft enough that I can get it straight to the size I want. I'm also curious how this dough strength affects the texture of the pie, hoping a softer dough will lead to a softer and more delicate crust.

Still not happy with the dough. I got a few things to test. With my own starter, I think I'll try reballing with up to 24 hours left. The dough feels pretty nice when I reball it, but 12 hours later it's really taut. I'm thinking this might just be the nature of my starter. I have noticed that my bread doughs are also pretty tight after the first few stretch and folds. The starter is made and fed with the bread flour that I've been using for a while until I got the oven and Caputo Pizzeria. I might try making a new one with the Caputo and see how that works.

I have also started feeding up my Ischia starter that I plan to give a go. Last time I used it the dough became too loose, so I'm hoping it will give me a better dough texture, but not too soft. The 48 hour doughs I made with it before was pretty slack. It might work well with later balling. From what I recall, I wasn't extactic about the flavor of my Ischia doughs, so it will be interesting to taste how they turn out. Also plan to make some IDY doughs with 48 hour fermentations to see how they compare to the sourdough ones, both in dough properties and taste. Also got a Camadoli starter that I haven't started yet. Maybe I'll try giving that one a go before trying to make a new on Caputo.

The dough became a bit misshaped after me trying to open it the last 20% on the peel (dough still being taut), and my launching needs improvement. I've also wondered if a straight or less rounded peel edge works better. I feel like the edge could be less acute or even flat. Didn't think about it when I bought the peel. I might try taking a bit off the edge. I's 30cm wide and 34cm long, so I can take off 4cm without having to reduce the pie size.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Icelandr on February 07, 2019, 10:59:19 AM
The biggest revelation I had in shaping my pizza and fighting to fully open it, came when I started leaving it longer in ball. I have found that with the same methods I use each time, the difference a few hours, in my case 8 or 6 in ball, makes a more significant difference than I would have thought. I recall Craig asking in a post something like ďbut what size is that pizza and how. Big was the ballĒ and I had to confess it was only about 10Ē . . . They now open easily. Your methods may well be different . . This was just my result
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: mmille24 on February 07, 2019, 02:26:36 PM
I'm sure this will be frowned upon by some but I find this cheat really useful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEmOyHGW0Pg

Helps ensure the dough is stretched evenly and round.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on February 07, 2019, 04:07:14 PM
The biggest revelation I had in shaping my pizza and fighting to fully open it, came when I started leaving it longer in ball. I have found that with the same methods I use each time, the difference a few hours, in my case 8 or 6 in ball, makes a more significant difference than I would have thought. I recall Craig asking in a post something like ďbut what size is that pizza and how. Big was the ballĒ and I had to confess it was only about 10Ē . . . They now open easily. Your methods may well be different . . This was just my result
I agree. At this point I think the timing of balling is what will make the difference. The dough is fermented for 48 hours, I've tried a bit longer fermentation, hydration is in a reasonable range and I've not overworked the dough.

How long in balls is something I'll have to figure out since my starter is different to everyone else's. Just comparing my own to the Ischia starter I got, I see a big difference. I currently got three doughs in the making. I've already cut off one and balled at 24 hours before bake. I'll ball one later tonight, around 19 hours before, and the last tomorrow morning. The unfortunate part of having to ball it further than 12 hours before bake is that I need to add another step where I put them on wood. Anything longer than 12 hours on wood and they tend to develop dry spots. Ideally, I'd want the balling to happen maximum 12 hours before bake.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Jackitup on February 07, 2019, 04:25:16 PM
I'm sure this will be frowned upon by some but I find this cheat really useful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEmOyHGW0Pg

Helps ensure the dough is stretched evenly and round.

Hah, I kinda like it, and probably won't be the only one that will give it a try just because!!!😊
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Icelandr on February 07, 2019, 04:58:16 PM
Looking back on my thread it would seem I was doing 48 hour dough between February and May last year, I see that at that time I commented about longer time in ball, and for a while before that was using autolysis in the mode of  G Sans. fwiw . . .  .
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on February 08, 2019, 06:32:05 AM
All three doughs are now balled and I see that balling earlier than putting on wood is not particularly ideal since the transfer can be a bit tricky. The best way to do it would probably be to use plastic bags for the period between balling and putting on wood. If I suspent the bags the ball will keep a somewhat ball-shape rather than flattening out like a pancake. Especially when I get my wood box made, I really don't want to keep doing that kind of logistics. Hopefully I'll figure out the starter and avoid the entire ordeal.

I'm sure this will be frowned upon by some but I find this cheat really useful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEmOyHGW0Pg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEmOyHGW0Pg)

Helps ensure the dough is stretched evenly and round.
Hehe, haven't seen that one before. I'm sure it works fine, but I don't know if it would work very well with my dough at the moment since I have to use so much force.

Looking back on my thread it would seem I was doing 48 hour dough between February and May last year, I see that at that time I commented about longer time in ball, and for a while before that was using autolysis in the mode of  G Sans. fwiw . . .  .
I could check your topic and see, but do you have any recollection if the autolyse made a difference and if so, in which way? I haven't tried it myself and there are very conflicting opinions from various members in this forum about the effect of it.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on February 09, 2019, 03:32:44 AM
Two whites and a margherita yesterday. 65% HR, 4.5% starter.

Whites sauce (two pies): 75g creme fraiche, 1 ts oregano, 1 clove garlic, 1/2 ts olive oil, a little whole milk, salt and pepper. Recipe calls for 1/2 ts white wine, which I sadly didn't have. It also had a pinch of garlic rather than a clove. The milk is not in the recipe and I added it to make the sauce runnier so I didn't have to smear it out. Topped with beech smoked ham.

I made the dough a bit late on Wednesday, so they didn't get 48 hours, but I balled the doughs as follows:

1: Balled after 21 hours (25 hours left), on wood after 34 hours, baked after 46 hours.
2: Balled after 27 hours (19 hours left), on wood after 34 hours, baked after 46 hours.
3: Balled after 34 hours,(12 hours left), on wood after 34 hours, baked after 46 hours.

The first two handled pretty nicely, though they had a bit of a rough look after the transferring from plastic box to wood. Much easier to open and needed less force. I couldn't really tell the difference between the two. This also made opening the final 80-90% on the peel easier. I focused a bit more on the launch and these are some of the more circular pies I've baked. I've been doing short shakes back and forth, but this time used fewer (2-4) with a larger pullback after each push. This also helps to avoid the creased look on the bottom. Turned them after 40 seconds and pulled them out after 60-70 seconds, which includes those 10 seconds no the outside. The white ones were really good.

The last ball behaved like before, as expected. It even tore a little during transfer or when I opened it on the peel. The first two were much easier to work with. The margherita left more to be desired. I think I had too much sauce and it didn't get properly cooked.

I think 24+24(12) is a good routine this starter. 24 hours in bulk, 24 hours balled, 12 hours balled on wood. If the ball is in a plastic bag, it will perhaps come out the best. I don't want to spend too much plastic, but maybe they can be cleaned and used again.

Another observation is that it wouldn't be a bad thing to cut down on the ball size a little. I like a light and soft crust, but I don't want it to have too much dough. I have noticed on the pies that the parts where I presumably left more dough on the crust didn't have the texture I want. The flatter parts on the skin that blow up a bit (without burning) during bake are much better. This will hopefully be easier to accomplish with better handling dough.

Oven management: Used amolapizza's method again. 30 minutes on max, lower to 300, upper down a bit, 15 minutes, 3 minutes on max and launch. On the first pie I had set the upper to 400C on the dial, but I noticed right before launch that the thermostat cut off, which was around 3 minutes after putting it back on. On the next ones I turned it down to 375 (right on the red marking), which worked better. I realize that where the oven is in the cycle can also make a difference. If the thermostat has been off a few minutes when I turn it up, it will take a little time to heat up the element, but if it's already been firing and is just about to reach the set temperature, it might be too hot for it to remain on for 3 more minutes.

Any ideas on what to work on to get a more even browning? I'd like it to be more even golden brown and not so much the pale with black spots. More like Craig's here: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14249.msg538609#msg538609

Am I pulling them out too soon or are there other things to try? I know that my oven is different from his of course and everything else about my process, but I'm hoping to at least work in the right direction.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: tkmcmichael on February 09, 2019, 09:43:43 PM
I'm sure this will be frowned upon by some but I find this cheat really useful:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEmOyHGW0Pg

Helps ensure the dough is stretched evenly and round.

I did this tonight and it worked great. Evenly stretched dough and didnít spring back. I let it sit on the bowl for a minute to relax before putting it back in the counter to dress. Here are a couple of pics from tonight in the Ardore.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: mmille24 on February 09, 2019, 11:35:29 PM
Looks great. Glad it helped!
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on February 27, 2019, 01:04:23 PM
Iíve had some less successful pies recently, mostly to do with launching problems, so I decided to try an IDY dough. I donít think Iíve made IDY doughs fermented at 15C before, but my memory of the IDY and machine kneaded doughs I fermented in the fridge was that they handled pretty well.

This pie was a walk in the park compared to some of my sourdough attempts. This could be explained by a few reasons besides using IDY, but itís nice to have a recipe I can pretty much rely on to work when I invite people over. The pie tasted good, but the crumb lacked the flavors from my SD pies. It puffed up and have a very nice texture, but the taste was a bit empty. Should also mention that it was a 24 hour dough.

I used 62% hydration, 0.07% IDY, some hand kneading and kneaded/folded it three times with 20 minutes rest between each. 16 hours at 15C, reballed and left at RT. I had to leave the apartment for some time and when I came back the dough had tried to escape, only 24 hours old. I mended the dough to a ball again and gave it another 2-3 hours to release some tension before bake.

The dough opened beautifully and lauched with no problems. It had tension enough to where I could work with it, slap it around and knuckle it, but not so much that it didnít want to stay open. This was a pretty useful experience considering my recent SD dough problems. Iíll have to keep working on my SD doughs and get to a similarly safe area. Next time Iíll drop the hydration down to 62% and see if that helps. This IDY dough also sat in RT for many hours, which might have been a contributing factor. Iíll try letting my SD doughs warm up a bit more than Iíve done previously. The time of reballing is also an important factor in the process, along with the fermentation and how well the starter works. I might try using the starter younger so it doesnít have as high acid load. Maybe it will help on the strength of the dough.

Also got a pretty nice and even browning on this one compared to my SD attempts. Will remain to be seen if thatís mostly the IDY effect or if dough temperature has something to say.

Used the Strianese tomatoes again. I opened the can two days ago, took out the tomatoes, gave them a quick blend, added some salt and put in the fridge after using on a pizza that day. Took them out a few hours before baking today. Really like these tomatoes. Strianese and the La Valle are my favorites so far.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Pazzo on February 27, 2019, 01:12:44 PM
Beautiful. What temp did you cook it on?
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Icelandr on February 27, 2019, 01:36:32 PM
Very Nice Heikjo, perhaps I should steal your pictures, mine donít look like that!
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on February 27, 2019, 02:17:49 PM
Beautiful. What temp did you cook it on?
Thanks. I'm guessing 470-500C.

Very Nice Heikjo, perhaps I should steal your pictures, mine donít look like that!
No need to do that, you make great pies! Both by looks and I assume taste.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on April 02, 2019, 05:52:57 AM
After using IDY for the last few bakes I finally got back to sourdough. The IDY pies are good and had that certain taste I found in restaurants, so I guess that's the IDY taste. I found them to a bit hollow or empty however. Particularly the rims didn't taste a whole lot. They were soft and had a great texture, just lacking taste. I might still use them here and there if the starter acts up again or I want to avoid disasters, but I think I'm going in the right direction with the starter now.

Pretty happy with these pies. I made the dough with 4.5% starter, which is what I've done before for 48 hour ferments, but this time it fermented a lot quicker. I don't think I did anything different than before in the process (except lowering HR), but I have recently made an effort to revitalize my starter, which might have made a difference. I made the dough in the evening and next noon it was already quite lively and the pluviometer read 19. I ended up balling them after 19 hours and baked after 23-25 hours. They had a bit of resistance since I balled so late, but with some knuckling opened well enough. I also found the dough to be less likely to tear this time. This could be caused by the shorter fermentation, but could also have something to do with the revitalized starter, maybe having less acid load. Oh, and I went back down to 62% HR, which probably didn't hurt.

Took the balls out of the cooler when I starter warming up the oven, about an hour before bake.

They were maybe fermented a bit far and on the second pie I forgot to bust the bubbles, which created some ugly, charred balloons. I cut off the worst before eating.

1: Standard with fennel salami.
2: Marherita (I should buy a new basil already).
3: Standard with parma ham.

I launch, let it bake 40 seconds, turn 180 degrees and let it finish. Bake time is between 60-70s from launch to I pull it out.

A short video I took:
https://youtu.be/qtjmJfHRS4c
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: sk on April 02, 2019, 05:29:33 PM
Very nice looking crust Heikjo. I am surprised at the early fermentation with 4.5% SD.  I'm not sure I got that much fermentation with 8% at 24 hours.  Perhaps my starter is not as lively.  The mysteries of pizza!
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on April 03, 2019, 02:25:00 AM
Very nice looking crust Heikjo. I am surprised at the early fermentation with 4.5% SD.  I'm not sure I got that much fermentation with 8% at 24 hours.  Perhaps my starter is not as lively.  The mysteries of pizza!
Surprised me too that it was ready a whole day earlier.

I've kept the starter in RT for some weeks and fed twice a day since I wasn't too happy with the activity in my bread doughs. Looks like it made a difference, unless I made a measuring error. Time will show.

Pizza has it's mysteries, but sourdough even more. Always something alive and changing.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 03, 2019, 04:21:36 PM
Hey they look really good. Light and fluffy.

Good to hear your culture is working for you as well.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Satyen on April 03, 2019, 05:15:50 PM
Wow. Thats some fine work indeed!
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on April 16, 2019, 10:28:30 AM
Thanks.

Lowered starter to 4%, but can try lower still. After about 24 hours with two in RT it read 30mm/m≤. Opened with some resistance so I'll ball earlier next time. Don't have my notes, but I think it was around 16/24 hours. Pies were good, but could be softer. Might be because of not enough time in balls, too much kneading (though I hardly do much) or maybe a bit higher hydration. I lowered hydration since I had some dough issues, but that might have been the starter too. Once I get the balls nice and relaxed when opening I might try higher hydration again.

I was probably a bit hard-handed on the final pie and ran the peel through the bottom when removing. The edge is a bit rough and could probably do with some sanding. Either round it off or sharpen to something closer to a (dull) knife. I don't know what more expensive peels has got.

Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Icelandr on April 16, 2019, 10:39:47 AM
Very nice looking pizza, I love the crust coloration.
Every once in a while I remember to check the edge of my aluminum peel, usually a bit late. The constant shuffling across the floor of the oven tend to sharpen and leave a bit ragged the edge of the peel leading to some slicing and dicing when turning or removing.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 16, 2019, 11:02:38 AM
Heikjo they look beautiful! What was the hydration on these? For me, with my workflow and hydration >= 62-63%, 8 hours in balls is plenty. For what it's worth...

May I ask why no basil? It's oh so important to me, so just curious. They look amazing anyhow!

Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on April 16, 2019, 11:18:13 AM
Forgot to mention that I tried something different last time too. I'm pretty happy with the bottom dryness when I put the balls on wood, but the topside has been a bit wetter. Using 62% hydration helped, but also to uncover the balls half an hour before use. That let the tops dry out a little bit too. I used very little bench flour. Nothing when opening and only the smallest amounts before dressing just in case it decided to stick to the counter. The doughs felt very forgiving.

Heikjo they look beautiful! What was the hydration on these? For me, with my workflow and hydration >= 62-63%, 8 hours in balls is plenty. For what it's worth...

May I ask why no basil? It's oh so important to me, so just curious. They look amazing anyhow!
They were 62%.

Are your balls in RT or some other temperature? I believe temperature makes a difference, but also the starter. I thought my Ischia starter needed less time in balls than my own.

No basil because I keep forgetting to buy it. During summer months at least I like to keep a plant in my kitchen and I had one a while last winter too. I need to buy a new one or at least buy a pot at the grocery store.

One thing I've wanted to do was try different kinds of basil and maybe buy some seeds online, but haven't gotten there yet. What kind of basil do you use?

I agree that it's important. The leaves were sorely missed. Will try to remember next time.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Arne_Jervell on April 16, 2019, 03:57:48 PM


Are your balls in RT or some other temperature?

Yes, room temperature. Typically 21 įC or a little higher.



One thing I've wanted to do was try different kinds of basil and maybe buy some seeds online, but haven't gotten there yet. What kind of basil do you use?

I use home-grown whenever I can. Seeds are bought from the local garden store ("plantasjen"), they have some different ones but it's the "Italian" variety I normally use. This year we have also planted some purple ones, just for fun. Not sure how they taste yet.

It's still a little early for that though. So grocery store plant or "gourmet" leaves from kolonial.no (they have actually been very very good historically) until the garden variety is ready.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Hanglow on April 16, 2019, 05:36:28 PM
Pizzas are looking great!

I grew lemon basil last year and it makes a nice change from the normal sweet basil. Going to grow a bunch of different types this year I think
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Yael on April 17, 2019, 01:09:31 AM
There's some good progress compared to the beginning of the thread  :) !
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on May 30, 2019, 04:01:03 AM
Thanks, Yael.

Look this extract (enclosed pic) from Accademia Pizzaioli pizza class, of which I am... let's say "sous-instructor" and translator of the Italian chef here in China, you see where he drew the arrow (green). It's right before the dough bursts. Actually I didn't know either it was that late in the fermentation, I didn't dare to wait too much because there's the risk of passing the point of no return... but I've been making it afterwards and the result makes quite a difference.

If your dough has too much resistance, you can indeed try a sooner balling, a higher hydration, or a shorter kneading.
How long before baking do you make balls?
Been thinking about this again. If you make a pie where the dough is close to the point of no return, how long before baking would you ball them? For instance with a 24h or 48h dough.

I've seen a few photos on here and elsewhere of doughs that are full of air and very soft, apparently quite late in the fermentation stage and I've been wanting to try it myself. Would be interesting to know how far that would be on a pluviometer, or just volume increase in general.

Made a couple of pies yesterday, with IDY for a change. I tried to get 0.08% IDY, but that's 0.22g and I don't think my scale can measure too accurately in such low amounts. The doughs ended up pretty slow and I even left them at RT for 10 hours. Had to ball and re-ball again since I waited for them to ferment a bit more. Ended up okay, but a bit chewy.

For topping I tried some recipes from a book I got. Both had 3-4 different cheeses, one with white aspargus and coppola ham. The other with aroma mushroom, shallot cooked first in butter, then with some red wine and balsamico, spinach and some goat cheese grated on top.

Don't think I got quite the balance on them. The first one called for some lemon zest and lemon juice post bake, but maybe I used too little. I prefered the mushroom pie, partly because of the onions which brought some acidity.

I also tried going from 260g balls to 220g (actually got 210g), and it worked reasonably well. I will increase the recipe a little next time to compensate for hand residue. Opened them to about 9" and stretching to 12" on the peel. One "issue" I've found by doing this is that the topping ends up a bit unevenly spread after the stretching. Looking at pies of others in here that do this, I sometimes wonder if they add some topping after this stretching process, considering how neatly the pepperoni is laid out.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: sk on May 30, 2019, 09:00:18 AM


Opened them to about 9" and stretching to 12" on the peel. One "issue" I've found by doing this is that the topping ends up a bit unevenly spread after the stretching. Looking at pies of others in here that do this, I sometimes wonder if they add some topping after this stretching process, considering how neatly the pepperoni is laid out.

Very interesting point Heikjo.  I suffer from the same malady.  I will be interested in any replies from the forum.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Yael on May 30, 2019, 09:03:14 AM
Thanks, Yael.
Been thinking about this again. If you make a pie where the dough is close to the point of no return, how long before baking would you ball them? For instance with a 24h or 48h dough.

I've seen a few photos on here and elsewhere of doughs that are full of air and very soft, apparently quite late in the fermentation stage and I've been wanting to try it myself. Would be interesting to know how far that would be on a pluviometer, or just volume increase in general.

Made a couple of pies yesterday, with IDY for a change. I tried to get 0.08% IDY, but that's 0.22g and I don't think my scale can measure too accurately in such low amounts. The doughs ended up pretty slow and I even left them at RT for 10 hours. Had to ball and re-ball again since I waited for them to ferment a bit more. Ended up okay, but a bit chewy.

[...]

Hi Heikjo,

Last week I made a test with the same flour, one CF one RTF (1% hydration less for RTF) so they get ready at the same time for baking:
- 24RTF (24-25įC) with 0.03% IDY
- 17H CF + 7H RTF with 0.25% IDY.
Well, texture, spring oven, and even taste they were pretty similar. There must have been a slight difference that I didn't notice though (the pizza weren't for me, more for a business meeting, I got to eat 2 or 3 slices only).

All that to say that you can try CF with more yeast than RTF, and you just have to take your dough out of the fridge a couple hours before baking. You ball right before CF.

About the "sweet spot", my technique just comes from experience, I know the state before the ball starts to collapse (deflate). There may be a better way (I saw a recent thread where a member asked about which proportion the ball should inflate), but I never tried something "mathematics" about it...  :-\
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Yael on May 30, 2019, 09:09:24 AM
Quote from: Heikjo on Today at 04:01:03 AM
Quote
    Opened them to about 9" and stretching to 12" on the peel. One "issue" I've found by doing this is that the topping ends up a bit unevenly spread after the stretching. Looking at pies of others in here that do this, I sometimes wonder if they add some topping after this stretching process, considering how neatly the pepperoni is laid out.

Very interesting point Heikjo.  I suffer from the same malady.  I will be interested in any replies from the forum.

I made a similar stretching only a couple of times and indeed I added more toppings  ;D

If you do this on a daily basis I guess you just top more so your 9' pizza stretched to 12' has still good and uniform toppings.
Don't forget that when doing NP pizza there are usually only a few ingredients; besides, 1 pizza = 1 person so they don't really care if a slice has salami and the other one doesn't.
This is only my point of view, I'm not Neapolitan  :P
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on May 30, 2019, 09:32:57 AM
About the "sweet spot", my technique just comes from experience, I know the state before the ball starts to collapse (deflate). There may be a better way (I saw a recent thread where a member asked about which proportion the ball should inflate), but I never tried something "mathematics" about it...  :-\
Yeah, I understand that point is difficult to determine and tha'ts omething I have to find myself. I can always make a dough that I plan to let collapse just to follow the process. What I wondered was when you balled the dough when doing RTF. I've added a photo at the bottom of a highly fermented dough that's still in bulk. How long do you keep the dough in balls before baking when they are kept in RT all the time?

I made a similar stretching only a couple of times and indeed I added more toppings  ;D

If you do this on a daily basis I guess you just top more so your 9' pizza stretched to 12' has still good and uniform toppings.
Don't forget that when doing NP pizza there are usually only a few ingredients; besides, 1 pizza = 1 person so they don't really care if a slice has salami and the other one doesn't.
This is only my point of view, I'm not Neapolitan  :P
I know the traditional NP doesn't have a lot of ingredients, but when I make something at home I don't have to follow any of those "rules". ;) I like to experiment and try something new.

I agree that every lice doesn't have to have everything. It's actually a point not having everything cover the entire surface, since it will give different flavors on different parts of the pie.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Yael on May 30, 2019, 10:33:01 AM
Yeah, I understand that point is difficult to determine and tha'ts omething I have to find myself. I can always make a dough that I plan to let collapse just to follow the process. What I wondered was when you balled the dough when doing RTF. I've added a photo at the bottom of a highly fermented dough that's still in bulk. How long do you keep the dough in balls before baking when they are kept in RT all the time?
I know the traditional NP doesn't have a lot of ingredients, but when I make something at home I don't have to follow any of those "rules". ;) I like to experiment and try something new.

I agree that every lice doesn't have to have everything. It's actually a point not having everything cover the entire surface, since it will give different flavors on different parts of the pie.

Yes sorry I forgot to say, when doing this RTF last week I balled 7H before. The CF was also in bulk actually, I balled both the morning 7H before baking (because it was more convenient for me).
There's been a thread about it recently: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=57746.0;topicseen

Once I balled 4H before baking (it was a total of 18H RTF if I'm not wrong), and the dough had some strength I didn't expect, meaning I should have balled before. But this can depend on many factors as said in the link above.

Usually when I make pizza, I don't care too much about it (of course, I try not to ball 10 min before baking), I just see what's convenient for me according to my schedule, and secondly to what the dough can handle (if I made a dough on the low HR side, it can take a longer time balled; on the other hand, if my dough is very wet, I may have to ball only a few hours before). I can also choose to make a drier or a wetter dough according to my schedule (for example, I have to bake the pizza at 10am, and I don't want to get up at 4am to make dough balls, so I have to ball the evening of the previous day, so I make a drier dough which balls will handle a longer RTF); on the other hand if I have time a couple hours before baking, I can choose to make a wetter dough and ball 3 or 4H before baking.

All these examples are for home pizza making and/or occasional pizza making, I don't suggest to make such a mess when you have a commercial setting!!  :-D
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on May 30, 2019, 01:06:00 PM
Thanks once again, Yael!

I thought of a new question. When I let the doughs ferment pretty far they airier. One problem I get from this is a lot of air bubbles in the dough, and when I push to open the balls, the air bubbles move out to the rim and blow up. If I don't pop them, they create the black, charred bubbles during bake, as demonstrated on the aspargus pie over. If I pop them, that part of the rim can get a bit flat and compact.

Any suggestions?
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Icelandr on May 30, 2019, 02:29:06 PM
I quite often pop or pinch off potentially large bubbles and while it affects the overall aesthetics of the cornichone, I prefer that to your described large blackened bubbles. Those that do getaway from me, I pop turn to the back for pictures and away from guests when serving.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 01, 2019, 01:54:25 AM
Those pies are really beautiful Heikjo. Looks like they were baked to perfection. Love the color and sounds like some interesting topping combos you have tested there.

What was the book you mentioned?
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 01, 2019, 02:03:59 AM


Usually when I make pizza, I don't care too much about it (of course, I try not to ball 10 min before baking), I just see what's convenient for me according to my schedule, and secondly to what the dough can handle (if I made a dough on the low HR side, it can take a longer time balled; on the other hand, if my dough is very wet, I may have to ball only a few hours before). I can also choose to make a drier or a wetter dough according to my schedule (for example, I have to bake the pizza at 10am, and I don't want to get up at 4am to make dough balls, so I have to ball the evening of the previous day, so I make a drier dough which balls will handle a longer RTF); on the other hand if I have time a couple hours before baking, I can choose to make a wetter dough and ball 3 or 4H before baking.

Yael, this is so true. I think this is one of the factors that makes a huge difference on dough handling. It took me a few years to really understand it. (And before it sank in I actually did get up in the middle of the night to ball the dough).

Somebody should put this on a t-shirt or something.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Yael on June 01, 2019, 02:42:56 AM
Thanks once again, Yael!

I thought of a new question. When I let the doughs ferment pretty far they airier. One problem I get from this is a lot of air bubbles in the dough, and when I push to open the balls, the air bubbles move out to the rim and blow up. If I don't pop them, they create the black, charred bubbles during bake, as demonstrated on the aspargus pie over. If I pop them, that part of the rim can get a bit flat and compact.

Any suggestions?

No problem man!

I have the same issue, of which I didn't really think about a solution. I don't know if it's because of a failed balling, or just "bad luck"... Anyway I suggest to pick any bubble you see ASAP.
Well, sometimes I prefer to keep the big bubble on the cornicione so the inside will still bake correctly instead of picking it and resulting as you say in a flat and compact part of the rim, with a layer of old man's skin on it...  :P (I thought I had a picture of it, but I didn't find..). I let the bubble burn in the oven, and remove it from the cornicione after baking if needed.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Yael on June 01, 2019, 03:41:10 AM

Yael, this is so true. I think this is one of the factors that makes a huge difference on dough handling. It took me a few years to really understand it. (And before it sank in I actually did get up in the middle of the night to ball the dough).

Somebody should put this on a t-shirt or something.

Haha, you did wake up in the middle of the night??  :-D

Just to be clear, when I talk about a lower and a higher HR, it's rough examples, I'm not talking about 10% hydration differences, maybe 4% tops, usually 2%.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Arne_Jervell on June 01, 2019, 03:52:49 AM
Haha, you did wake up in the middle of the night??  :-D

You bet.  :-D

Just to be clear, when I talk about a lower and a higher HR, it's rough examples, I'm not talking about 10% hydration differences, maybe 4% tops, usually 2%.

Good clarification. An example might illustrate the point: My typical dough these days is fermented at 22 įC, and I usually aim for 24 hours total fermentation. My hydration rates typically vary from 62% to 66%. With these conditions in mind:

Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Yael on June 01, 2019, 08:13:30 AM
You bet.  :-D

Good clarification. An example might illustrate the point: My typical dough these days is fermented at 22 įC, and I usually aim for 24 hours total fermentation. My hydration rates typically vary from 62% to 66%. With these conditions in mind:
  • The 62% dough prefers 12 hours in bulk. Any shorter and I find it too tense to my liking. 12 hours allows it to relax sufficiently. But I don't need to get up at 4'o clock anymore, because:
  • The 66% dough does not like 12 hours in bulk, it gets too slack and sticky and I dont think it handles very well on the "bancone". 6-8 hours in bulk, on the other hand, seems perfect. If I have guests for pizza at 16.00 in the evening, I make 65-66% dough and ball it in the morning.
  • In between, I "interpolate". :pizza:

 ^^^
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: sk on June 01, 2019, 09:08:31 AM
You bet.  :-D

Good clarification. An example might illustrate the point: My typical dough these days is fermented at 22 įC, and I usually aim for 24 hours total fermentation. My hydration rates typically vary from 62% to 66%. With these conditions in mind:
  • The 62% dough prefers 12 hours in bulk. Any shorter and I find it too tense to my liking. 12 hours allows it to relax sufficiently. But I don't need to get up at 4'o clock anymore, because:
  • The 66% dough does not like 12 hours in bulk, it gets too slack and sticky and I dont think it handles very well on the "bancone". 6-8 hours in bulk, on the other hand, seems perfect. If I have guests for pizza at 16.00 in the evening, I make 65-66% dough and ball it in the morning.
  • In between, I "interpolate". :pizza:

Arne/Heijko/Yael:

I have been aiming for 24 hours total fermentation.  Due to scheduling, about 14 hours bulk/10 hours in balls.  .02% IDY.  62% hydration.  Caputo Pizzeria.  Resting in my basement which is aroud 22c, no lower.  This dough is ready to go about 2 hours ahead of time, slightly sticky but not bad, a bit more extensible than I would like.  Any thoughts on what to do in order to slow it down just a bit?
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Yael on June 01, 2019, 09:27:23 AM
Arne/Heijko/Yael:

I have been aiming for 24 hours total fermentation.  Due to scheduling, about 14 hours bulk/10 hours in balls.  .02% IDY.  62% hydration.  Caputo Pizzeria.  Resting in my basement which is aroud 22c, no lower.  This dough is ready to go about 2 hours ahead of time, slightly sticky but not bad, a bit more extensible than I would like.  Any thoughts on what to do in order to slow it down just a bit?

To this state, try to cool down the Tį (or if you have a fridge...)
For next time, I think you already know, less yeast/lower hydration/lower Tį.

In the experiment I'm talking about in reply 76 (page 4), I didn't mention that that day the weather was very hot sunny day (33įC outside, 24.5įC at home) (we're talking about Canada-latitude, so yes, it's hot ^^), and I had to drive 45 min to my client's with the dough in the car (imagine the temperature in the car when I got in with the dough). The dough was already usable before the ride, so I was afraid it would be too much...
But it turned out good, no problem!!

All that to say that even though your dough is ready 2H ahead of time, you may still have room!
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: sk on June 01, 2019, 11:04:49 AM
To this state, try to cool down the Tį (or if you have a fridge...)
For next time, I think you already know, less yeast/lower hydration/lower Tį.

In the experiment I'm talking about in reply 76 (page 4), I didn't mention that that day the weather was very hot sunny day (33įC outside, 24.5įC at home) (we're talking about Canada-latitude, so yes, it's hot ^^), and I had to drive 45 min to my client's with the dough in the car (imagine the temperature in the car when I got in with the dough). The dough was already usable before the ride, so I was afraid it would be too much...
But it turned out good, no problem!!

All that to say that even though your dough is ready 2H ahead of time, you may still have room!

I had to put it in the fridge for about an hour to cool/slow it down.  Next time thinking also use cooler water for the mix.  It was at least 26c off the mixer.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on June 01, 2019, 02:17:09 PM
Those pies are really beautiful Heikjo. Looks like they were baked to perfection. Love the color and sounds like some interesting topping combos you have tested there.

What was the book you mentioned?
Pizza, by the guys at Lofthus Samvirkelag. Don't actually know if I've been to one of their pizzerias yet. https://www.aschehoug.no/nettbutikk/pizza-aco.html

The book has a lot of good pizzas. They also got recipes for dough and sauces. It's that sauce I use on my whites.

Norway got some great pizzerias, but what I generally don't like as much is the bottom and crust. It's often flat and more crispy than soft, sometimes quite hard. It's become popular to create exotic and new combinations, using less common ingredients. This makes for some incredible topping, but I wish more of them put a bit more effort into the dough.

No problem man!

I have the same issue, of which I didn't really think about a solution. I don't know if it's because of a failed balling, or just "bad luck"... Anyway I suggest to pick any bubble you see ASAP.
Well, sometimes I prefer to keep the big bubble on the cornicione so the inside will still bake correctly instead of picking it and resulting as you say in a flat and compact part of the rim, with a layer of old man's skin on it...  :P (I thought I had a picture of it, but I didn't find..). I let the bubble burn in the oven, and remove it from the cornicione after baking if needed.
That's not a bad idea actually. Just leaving them and removing post bake to keep the integrity of that part of the cornicione.

Arne/Heijko/Yael:

I have been aiming for 24 hours total fermentation.  Due to scheduling, about 14 hours bulk/10 hours in balls.  .02% IDY.  62% hydration.  Caputo Pizzeria.  Resting in my basement which is aroud 22c, no lower.  This dough is ready to go about 2 hours ahead of time, slightly sticky but not bad, a bit more extensible than I would like. Any thoughts on what to do in order to slow it down just a bit?
If the fermentation is fine, maybe just reduce the time in balls by a few hours? If it's a bit too fermented, you could dial down the IDY a little, or aim for a lower final dough temperature. If balling two hours earlier is difficult, maybe try a bit less hydration as Yael suggested.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on June 01, 2019, 03:57:14 PM
Bah. I had written a long post, then it disappeared when I sat on the mouse and clicked "back". I'll write a shorter version.

Made 7 pies for 6 adults, which was a fine amount, but one more would be good.

Had one disaster on the fourth pie that filled the room with smoke. I left the windows open and evacuated. Let everything burn up, smoke clear and pushed the charred stuff to the back. After that made sure I used enough bench flour. I might want to remove the stone and clean out one day.

Usually put balls on wood, but had to use plastic because of little space in the cooler. I have to make a wood box or something else so I can put 8 balls on wood.

One problem was maybe thin spots, which I think happens more easily when the balls are not on wood. I notice when they are on wood that I don't get the holey pattern on the bottom of the balls, as well as drier bottom. When fermenting on plastic, they get this pattern of holes that contribute to some spots being thinner.

Think I'll put the oven on the balcony next time.

Ideally I'd like a box of only wood, but just the bottom also works. If I remove the cover of the balls 15-20 minutes before opening, the top also dries out enough to keep the bench flour to a minimum.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Icelandr on June 01, 2019, 07:59:09 PM
Wow! Nice looking Pizza, well done!
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Yael on June 01, 2019, 08:11:33 PM
[...] or aim for a lower final dough temperature.[...]

Indeed! It's also very important but I forgot about it.

Pies are nice  :drool:
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: sk on June 01, 2019, 09:23:12 PM
   ^^^   Terrific looking pizzas Heijko!
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on June 07, 2019, 05:22:31 PM
Thanks. :)

I'm really starting to like white pizza. The sauce is good, but some good cheeses really makes the difference. Also has a lot of good wine to pair with.

I've had some ideas and tried some things today.

1. Crumb softness
My biggest complaint with my recent pies is that the crumb has been too chewy. I think the reason is primarily the time in balls. I've been using 6-8 hours, which is likely not enough. The doughs open well enough, but I need more effort than I'd like. While watching an episode of a TV-show with some Swedes travelling to Naples to learn how to make Neapolitan, I realized that I've been keeping the doughs too short in balls. IIRC, I found that 12 hours was a good number not too long back, but I guess I forgot. Or that was in a time where my starter wasn't quite up to speed, and that took my focus. I think that number was purely based on how the dough behaved during opening and not characteristics after baking.

In the video they were taught by a guy at AVPN and in that recipe they leave the dough in bulk for 20 minutes and then 24 hours in balls in 25C. I wrote a longer post about this in Arne's topic (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=52803.msg580689#msg580689), where others contributed, including Icelandr who pointed me towards a bunch of posts by Omid. Those posts were a good read and I'm now looking forward to try leaving the dough longer in balls.

2. Dough stickiness
Not quite sure what to do with the fermenting on wood part if I want to pursue a longer time in balls. I've done 12 hours on wood and that might be close to a limit before they start developing a tough crust. It may be possible to keep them in balls part of the time on one surface and and some part on another. If that's wood first and then plastic or the other way around I don't know, so I guess I'll try both. At first I thought plastic then wood would be logical, but I'm not so sure. Wood first might dry it out enough where it doesn't get too sticky in plastic after. When fermenting on plastic, the bottom is filled with air bubbles (as seen from below) which makes the bottom more difficult to work with. Maybe a box in wood where I can pick them up after half the time and put in a plastic bottom for the last part, keeping the wood topside.

For now, I've found that fermenting in plastic with wooden floor works very well when I remove the cover 30-60 minutes before baking. If I don't, the parts of the dough not in contact with wood get a sticky surface, which makes opening more difficult. It can also lead to doughs snagging since when you open the ball, parts of the outside of the ball ends up as bottom or close to it. When letting the balls air a bit before opening, the entire dough is nice and dry.

3. Burnt basil
I finally bought another basil plant. I've had some less ideal attempts with adding the basil on top where the edges get  burnt. I even tried soaking them in oil first, but still got burnt. Today I tried putting a piece of cheese on top of every leaf, and that seemed to work well.

4. Launching pies
In the video previously mentioned, the Swedish cook was launching a pie at AVPN and the instructor said he did it wrong. He pushed the peel, not pulled it. I don't know how I didn't understand this concept before, but today I launched all three pies with a single pull on the peel. My main problem has probably been too much forward momentum for the pies. Just a little momentum helps the peel release, but I've been overdoing it and sending the pie deeper in the oven, when the idea is to just snap out the peel and let the pie stay still and just fall on the stone. A little bit of progress here and there.

5. Baking pies
So far I've turned the pies after 40 seconds before baking another 15-20 seconds. Today I tried leaving them inside the entire time, totally 60 seconds. This wasn't ideal and you can see that some parts are exposed to higher heat than other parts, but I wouldn't say it's completely out of question. If turning them has any impact on the other properties of the pies that are affected by opening the door and removing the pie a few seconds I don't know, but I'd say it makes passable pies without turning.

6. Fermentation
Level of fermentation is something that has always puzzled me, both in bread and pizza. Primarily because it looks like people use all kinds of different levels of fermentation. From the puffed up airy ones that Yael talked about, to the flat pancakes with very little air in them.

One challenge I've met with well-fermented dough is that the air bubbles are pushing into the rim, blowing up and compromising the cornicione. I either have to pop the bubbles and get a flat rim, or leave them and cut off the burnt parts after bake. Neither is ideal. That's one thing that points me towards less fermentation. I've used a pluviometer many times and used the dough at what many recommend, around 26mm/m≤, which I would say is a pretty moderate amount of fermentation. Far from the puffiness I've seen some use, and the timing Yael described with the wonderful image.

The endevours into time in balls might become a factor in how far I want to ferment the doughs, since the combination of a well-fermented dough and long time in balls might make them too sloppy.

One answer might be that it doesn't matter too much if they are fermented to 26mm or 40mm, at least when talking about structure. Taste can be different, where more fermentation leads to more taste (which isn't necessarily something you want). That can maybe be remedied by having a long fermentation, but not a high level of fermentation. Meaning a dough that ferments for 24-48 hours, but still doesn't get much higher than 26mm at the time of opening.

The last photo below is taken from two videos. The upper photo is from the video I've talked about with the Swedes in Naples, where the dough balls/pancakes are from the AVPN institution, while the bottom one is from a video with Gino Sorbillo making a dough that ferments 8-10 hours. The spacing between the balls might be confusing me a bit, but it looks like Gino's balls are more fermented than those at AVPN.

Some photos from the last two sessions. The first three were turned, the last three not.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Yael on June 07, 2019, 08:22:41 PM
That's an interesting long analysis!

As i have been talking a lot about the fermentation and its "sweet spot" recently, I also realized that a re-balled dough can have another sweet spot, as long as there's still sugar and active yeast in the dough. Because when we ball, we add strength to the dough, and balled dough can ferment another round. In the same idea, a dough ball that has been balled lately can result in a dense crust just as if it lacked fermentation (I just made a 23H RTF 3 days ago, and forgot to ball the dough 6~8H before, I just balled 3H before. It was dense). Next test, I ball right after dough mixing.

In parallel, I came to some judgements like if the RTF is long and the yeast amount very low, the sweet spot will last longer but will be lower, except if there's a final proofing that can boost the yeast just before baking. That's why these days I've been thinking about the advantage of CF over RTF: CF can take a higher amount of yeast, so when we take the dough out of the fridge, yeast wakes up and gives more activity than long RTF's yeast, giving a "better" -even if it's shorter- sweet spot.

On the upper last picture, we can see the dough seems to lack fermentation (surely has maturation). IMO, it would need to proof at a higher Tį to get to the sweet spot. But maybe I'm wrong, do you have a pic of their result? Of the crumb?

I've never used a pluviometer and only saw the name on the forum (I don't know the use of it)...
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on June 08, 2019, 07:53:18 AM
Heiko, I also like white pies more and more.  Tomato is nice, but somehow I feel it's gotten boring with all the tomato based pies.  It's really fun that you can try all these different topping combinations at home!

I think your situation is getting complicated by using sourdough and long maturation times.  Sourdough is acid and the acid will attack the gluten making your dough more sticky.  You can counteract this by building a stronger gluten mesh, but this tends to lead to chewy pizza.  One often mentioned workaround to chewiness is adding some fat, oil, strutto, etc.  Who knows but I suspect lowering the salt level will have a similar effect, but will also make the fermentation go faster.

I think you can manipulate the final tension in the balls, by either making the initial dough tighter or more relaxed. The same goes for when you create the balls.  If they are destined for a long apretto make them tight, and for a short apretto more relaxed.

I've also found that around the 12 hour point on wood, the bottoms are starting to dry out.  I have no idea how they would turn out after 24 hours on wood, maybe worth a test someday.

Have you ever tried using less sourdough and adding some fresh CY to give fermentation a boost over the maturation?  Another thing maybe worth trying is to feed the sourdough 2-3 times in quick succession so that it has a lot of fermentative power and less acids.

The brotherhood didn't seem to like sourdough much for pizza.  They were heavy into using biga with a CY supplement.  The biga for maturation and taste, and the CY for levitation power.

Regarding the baking in the p134h.  I'm beginning to think that it's better to place the pizza in the exact middle and then not turn it.  The placement seems important for even cooking, and not opening the door means conserving the heat while the pizza cooks.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on June 08, 2019, 08:15:46 AM
Regarding fermentation.  I'm thinking that about a 50% volume expansion is right for me.  With my normal dough it's nice to work with at that point and I don't get the big black boils that I get if I let it double.  That said I baked some seriously over fermented dough at the convention without really having any problems with either the softness of the dough, stickiness, nor any big black boils.  Wish I knew how to make a dough like that :)

I talked to the the leader of the brotherhood and he also thought that the 50% point was a very good point to start making the pizzas.  He linked me this photo as showing an ideal panietto: The third photo.

Here is my levitation meter (just a normal transparent measuring cup), 70g of dough gives me about 50ml, when it's risen to about 75ml it's ready to be baked (The second picture is slightly over that point, but still ok to work with.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on June 10, 2019, 07:57:27 AM
On the upper last picture, we can see the dough seems to lack fermentation (surely has maturation). IMO, it would need to proof at a higher Tį to get to the sweet spot. But maybe I'm wrong, do you have a pic of their result? Of the crumb?
Amolapizza found the program on the Swedish website, you may be able to watch it there: https://www.svtplay.se/video/15097180/landgang/landgang-sasong-9-neapel?start=auto&tab=2017

No crumb shot, but I've added a still of the finished pie below. It's on the video with 41 minutes left. Didn't look like there was anything wrong with it to me.

I think your situation is getting complicated by using sourdough and long maturation times.  Sourdough is acid and the acid will attack the gluten making your dough more sticky.  You can counteract this by building a stronger gluten mesh, but this tends to lead to chewy pizza.  One often mentioned workaround to chewiness is adding some fat, oil, strutto, etc.  Who knows but I suspect lowering the salt level will have a similar effect, but will also make the fermentation go faster.
I think I can deal with stickiness just by where I store the doughs. Doesn't take long uncovered before the entire dough is non-sticky. Sourdough probably introduce more factors to take into consideration, but I will keep trying.

I think you can manipulate the final tension in the balls, by either making the initial dough tighter or more relaxed. The same goes for when you create the balls.  If they are destined for a long apretto make them tight, and for a short apretto more relaxed.
Yeah, that's something I've become aware of now. I've used to ball them pretty tight, probably too tight for 6-8 hours in balls. One attempt might be to ball them 8-12 hours before bake, on wood, but without creating too much tension in the balls.

Have you ever tried using less sourdough and adding some fresh CY to give fermentation a boost over the maturation?  Another thing maybe worth trying is to feed the sourdough 2-3 times in quick succession so that it has a lot of fermentative power and less acids.
Never tried it, but it might work like that. There's enough extra work with SD, I'd ideally not want to introduce more ingredients I need to keep stock of. I keep my starter on the counter and feed it 2-3 times a day, so I think it's got enough power.

Regarding the baking in the p134h.  I'm beginning to think that it's better to place the pizza in the exact middle and then not turn it.  The placement seems important for even cooking, and not opening the door means conserving the heat while the pizza cooks.
After 4 pies where I didn't turn them, I'm not entired convinced. When I first got the oven, the outermost part of the pie were less cooked, but now it's the part furthest in. You can probably get a pretty even bake, but it require perfect placement and an ideal size. I wonder if making the pie too big makes it less likely to get an even bake without turning.

Regarding fermentation.  I'm thinking that about a 50% volume expansion is right for me.  With my normal dough it's nice to work with at that point and I don't get the big black boils that I get if I let it double.  That said I baked some seriously over fermented dough at the convention without really having any problems with either the softness of the dough, stickiness, nor any big black boils.  Wish I knew how to make a dough like that :)

I talked to the the leader of the brotherhood and he also thought that the 50% point was a very good point to start making the pizzas.  He linked me this photo as showing an ideal panietto: The third photo.

Here is my levitation meter (just a normal transparent measuring cup), 70g of dough gives me about 50ml, when it's risen to about 75ml it's ready to be baked (The second picture is slightly over that point, but still ok to work with.
I've usually erred on the farther side of 50-100%, but I think I'll try to dial it down a bit and see what happens around the 50% point. When experimenting with time in balls and ball tension, having a ball that's not as fermented might be a good thing. I might get less taste out of a shorter fermentation, but going up to 48h doughs might fix that.

Would be interesting to make two different doughs at the same time with different amounts of starter, one aiming for 50% and the other for 100% or more and see how they turned out in comparison.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on June 10, 2019, 09:37:10 AM
I keep my starter on the counter and feed it 2-3 times a day, so I think it's got enough power.

I suspect it's in top form! :)

Quote
After 4 pies where I didn't turn them, I'm not entired convinced. When I first got the oven, the outermost part of the pie were less cooked, but now it's the part furthest in. You can probably get a pretty even bake, but it require perfect placement and an ideal size. I wonder if making the pie too big makes it less likely to get an even bake without turning.

Yes, I've also found if you put it very far in, that furthest part will remain white instead.  I think you have to hit the centre of the oven, I'll keep practicing.. :)  I also suspect that a 26cm pizza will be more evenly cooked than a 30cm one.

Quote
Would be interesting to make two different doughs at the same time with different amounts of starter, one aiming for 50% and the other for 100% or more and see how they turned out in comparison.

Sounds like an interesting experiment.  Or one dough divided in two, and then one part slightly retarted by an hour or so.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on June 10, 2019, 12:29:03 PM
Yes, I've also found if you put it very far in, that furthest part will remain white instead.  I think you have to hit the centre of the oven, I'll keep practicing.. :)  I also suspect that a 26cm pizza will be more evenly cooked than a 30cm one.
I think that's accurate. If part of the pizza is close to the edge, either too far in or out, it gets less heat. Which makes sense since the heating element stops there. A 26cm pie has 25% less area than a 30cm, so you do trade away some size. I haven't done any tests to compare a pie that's turned to one that isn't, but I haven't had any experience that makes me believe there is a big difference so far. I think I will aim to keep turning them.

I've made some pizza since last time. One yesterday that spent 24/25 hours in ball. I took it out of the cooler after 23 hours and put it on some wood without cover, then covered half an hour later. Today's pies were in bulk 6/24 hours, then in balls 18/24. I fermented in plastic boxes and took them out after 24 hours, where I put them on wood uncovered and covered after 45 minutes.

30-45 minutes uncovered was too much and all balls had started to develop a little crust. Seems it doesn't take much time for them to get rid of most of the surface moisture, so I'll have to shorten that part down. Only leaving them on wood for a short while at the end seems like a decent alternative to have them in balls all the time on wood. It doesn't give the same uniform bottom, but dries it out fairly well to where little bench flour is needed.

All balls opened very well and much easier than the 6-8 hour ones. The single ball yesterday I believe I made pretty tight as, while today's pies did not get much work. After the 6 hours in bulk, I simply cut it up, folded it into itself once, sealed and done. I didn't have any problems with tearing or the skins mishaving. With the conditions I used, 24 hours in balls is no problem.

For some reason, the pie I made yesterday was really tasty, especially the crust. Maybe I got the starter just right, or something else. I didn't notice too much difference in softness, but that may have been a result of too long uncovered.

Today's pies were definitely softer than before. I let them dry too much today also, but there was still a difference to be found in both the bottom middle (with topping on) and the cornicione.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on June 11, 2019, 05:06:25 AM
30-45 minutes uncovered was too much and all balls had started to develop a little crust. Seems it doesn't take much time for them to get rid of most of the surface moisture, so I'll have to shorten that part down.

Lately I started taking the glass bowls off my cutting boards to let the top dry out too.  I get the impression that this goes very quickly and that maybe 10 minutes or so is enough.  It's not nice when you get a dry skin on top of the balls..
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on July 04, 2019, 02:16:18 PM
Been at work for some time, so no pizza, but I was able to make a few today. Sadly it will be the last for at least three weeks since I'm going on holiday.

Been busy packing, so nothing extraordinary planned for today. Three whites with some red onion and cured ham. Had to use IDY since my starter's hibernating in the fridge.

15 hours bulk, 8 hours in balls. They were fermented a bit far perhaps, but nothing too difficult to manage. Opened and behaved well. I use a cheap Ebay 0.01g scale that isn't the most reliable thing in the world. If I made more IDY pies I'd probably buy a better scale, but I remain unimpressed by IDY.

Pizzas were fine, but again there's that hollow taste. I have to quote Craig here: "We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza." I will always use sourdough if I can. I'm primarily using my own starter, but I'd like to give the Ischia another go.

I also want to get back to making 48 hours pies. And I'd like to experiment more with the oven. So far I've mostly used a method Amolapizza mentioned. It works great for 60s pies, but it would be interesting to see if I could bake even faster.

Oh, and I bought a new phone, so there's hope of better photos in the future.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 04, 2019, 03:50:04 PM
These look mighty nice Heikjo. Have a good vacation, looking forward to more pizza posts from when you return.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on July 27, 2019, 05:40:23 AM
Thanks, Arne.

It's 30C indoors and outdoors, but that's no reason not to make pizza.

62% HR, 3% starter. This one got going quickly and after 14 of the planned 24 hours, it was at 28 mm/m≤. I considered having an early lunch, but put them in the fridge instead, where things stopped up. The dough spent an hour in RT after mix, which might have led to the speedy fermentation. They were balled after 5 hours bulk.

It worked out alright and the two whites were really tasty. I put some blue cheese on before bake. The crust was probably a bit chewier than usual due to the CF stage.

The single red was made with a pizza sauce can from Mutti. It wasn't bad, but neither great. Would've worked better for a pan pizza. The store didn't have much else that was interesting, so I gave it a go.

For drinks we had a very nice and fruity Italian white.

There hasn't been much time for experimentation lately due to work, vacation and stuff to do at home, but I hope things will settle down a bit by autumn and winter. By then my pizza room will have to give way to our daughter, so I'll need to find a new place for my oven.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 28, 2019, 08:44:16 AM
Looking really good!

I've also had limited success with Mutti on my NP (use it all the time in other dishes though).

I love my oven, but I must say it sounds nice being able to move it around and use it even in winter time too. :)
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on July 28, 2019, 09:05:47 AM
Which Mutti, they make a lot?

I use Mutti S. Marzano which is quite expensive but the one I liked best so far.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 28, 2019, 09:11:57 AM


Which Mutti, they make a lot?

You're right, I jumped to conclusions.

In my head, "Mutti" is almost synonymous with Mutti Polpa, which is quite ubiquitous around here.

But Heikjo mentioned a pizza sauce. Also there are many other cans, like you say.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on July 28, 2019, 09:50:29 AM
I use these, the one on the left is the 2017 vintage and the one on the right 2018.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on July 28, 2019, 09:54:43 AM
Which Mutti, they make a lot?

I use Mutti S. Marzano which is quite expensive but the one I liked best so far.
I think I've tried a Marzano by Mutti once, but I think that was before the Neapolitan era and probably not the best test to base it on. I'll see if I can find some again. Think I bought it at Vulkan in Oslo.

One thing I've noticed about the different tomatoes is the actual amount of tomatoes you get. From some cans I've gotten 160g, while others yield 240g. There is likely a connection with price and quality, but I've also had cans with good tomatoes that didn't have much in them. Strianese is my favorite at this point, and happens to be one of the brands with the most tomatoes in the cans.

This was a sauce, not just tomatoes. I didn't expect much and didn't get much, so everything went as expected.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Icelandr on July 28, 2019, 10:04:44 AM
Heikjo, I like the look of your latest pizza, the simple white pies once again remind me to keep the toppings lighter . . . When faced with a pizza skin my mind seems over ruled by my hands which spread toppings far and wide!
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on July 28, 2019, 10:10:44 AM
A few months ago I bough a can of budget brand for practice pizza.  It was super good, bright and sweet, different but just as good as my S. Marzano.  I went back later and bought a few cans more, not at all the same. Mediocre tomato taste and a lot of liquid.  Too bad :)
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Yael on July 28, 2019, 07:46:01 PM
FWIW, I usually but whole peeled tomatoes. I use one or two brands I can find in China (including CIAO) which are quite good, no acidity at all. I mix them roughly, add fresh basil if I have it and... that's all, nothing more, except salt, sometimes.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on July 30, 2019, 05:57:18 PM
Tried a can of Mutti SM today. I've only found it in one store, and at 50% higher price than Strianese. They were good, but I don't know if they were better than Strianese. Maybe in the same area, but not worth the higher price.

I got 235g after draining the sauce, which is decent, in the same vicinity as Strianese. 80g per 12" pie wasn't quite enough. It was also a bit watery, so I could have drained it a little and used one can on two pies. That's maybe something I should do regardless of the tomatoes I use. Reduce water with little taste, increase the good stuff.

I liked the pizzas though, as I always do. Even had basil today. The crust was very tasty and soft, but that reminded me that I should get back to 48 hour doughs. And see if I can awaken the Ischia starter, which didn't give my favorite results back when I first tried it.

I would like to try fermenting in all-wooden boxes to see what difference that makes. I now leave the balls on wood, but with a bowl over. I then uncover the dough 15-20 minutes before opening, but that can sometimes make the crust just a little too dry if it's left too long. I want to see how the balls feel and behave when covered with wood. Also opening them without first leaving them in RT an hour. Every time I open a ball I feel like I got so much to learn yet. Especially now that I'm trying longer time in balls, it's maybe an advantage to not let the balls warm up much past the 15C they are in the cooler. Longer in balls makes them softer, colder dough makes them stronger.

I was thinking about the pluviometer today and how it corresponds to the actual doughs. I took them out of the cooler at 28mm/m≤ and baked 1-2 hours later. During that time, the pluviometer had risen significantly, closing in on 40. The balls however, don't move as fast since it's a larger dough and takes time to heat up. The pluviometer is probably somewhat accurate when kept at the stable fermentation temperatur, but not so much if everything is taken out to RT. Not that it matters much since the pluviometer is a reference tool and used to provide consistent and predictable results, but maybe worth keeping in mind. On the other side, maybe the doughs ferment faster initially since the FDT is higher than the fermentation temperature and the doughs will take longer to cool to 15C than the pluvioball.

amolapizza or anyone else: Have you tried the Mutti Pelati? I've seen them mentioned a few times on the forum and members liking them, but never got around to try them myself.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on July 31, 2019, 03:47:56 AM
Strianesi, don't know those.  What brand?  Think that is very close and also in Naples, so no reason that they shouldn't be just as good!  Personally I don't strain, I use the liquid too.  Lately I've started removing the white/green pieces after hand crushing.  I'll buy a can or two of Mutti pelati next time I buy SM.

Be a bit careful with all wooden boxes.  I bought one and had some troubles with the balls drying out too much when making only a few balls and leaving them a long time.  Now I've covered the lid in cellophane wrap which seems to help.  It also helped to put one or two espresso cups with water in the box.  The jury is out on how to handle this the best way, maybe I'll have an acrylic lid made.

Yes, I've also noticed the "fermentometer" becoming more inaccurate when changing the temperature of the dough, but since I mostly use TA it's not such a big hassle.  I suspect once I have my temps and timing dialed in, I won't bother with this anymore.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 31, 2019, 03:54:45 AM
Be a bit careful with all wooden boxes.  I bought one and had some troubles with the balls drying out too much when making only a few balls and leaving them a long time.  Now I've covered the lid in cellophane wrap which seems to help.  It also helped to put one or two espresso cups with water in the box.  The jury is out on how to handle this the best way, maybe I'll have an acrylic lid made.

I've had similar issues with my wooden boxes. For a while I used cellophane wrap like you describe. Then I found that the drying, in my case, was caused by the wooden lid not sitting perfectly flat on the frame. After fitting the lid with window isolation tape, I've not had any more drying problems.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on July 31, 2019, 04:04:25 AM
Thanks, interesting!
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Michiel on July 31, 2019, 04:16:08 AM
Thanks, Arne.

It's 30C indoors and outdoors, but that's no reason not to make pizza.

62% HR, 3% starter. This one got going quickly and after 14 of the planned 24 hours, it was at 28 mm/m≤. I considered having an early lunch, but put them in the fridge instead, where things stopped up. The dough spent an hour in RT after mix, which might have led to the speedy fermentation. They were balled after 5 hours bulk.

It worked out alright and the two whites were really tasty. I put some blue cheese on before bake. The crust was probably a bit chewier than usual due to the CF stage.

The single red was made with a pizza sauce can from Mutti. It wasn't bad, but neither great. Would've worked better for a pan pizza. The store didn't have much else that was interesting, so I gave it a go.

For drinks we had a very nice and fruity Italian white.

There hasn't been much time for experimentation lately due to work, vacation and stuff to do at home, but I hope things will settle down a bit by autumn and winter. By then my pizza room will have to give way to our daughter, so I'll need to find a new place for my oven.
Is the white base just ricotta or mozzarella?
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on July 31, 2019, 04:34:32 AM
Is the white base just ricotta or mozzarella?
The sauce is Creme fraiche, garlic, olive oil, oregano, white wine, salt and pepper. There is mozzarella on top of that too.

Arne and amola: Thanks for the input. A loose fit will let moisture escape the box, which I can see drying the balls out too much. If it's a good seal, all moisture lost is into the air and wood inside the box. Maybe there are differences depending on the wood used, that some suck up more moisture than others.

Have you observed any differences when having fewer balls in there? Would 2 balls dry out more than 8 balls in the same box?
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 31, 2019, 05:16:34 AM
Have you observed any differences when having fewer balls in there? Would 2 balls dry out more than 8 balls in the same box?

Yes I think so, but since I mostly use smaller plastic trays when I make small batches, I cannot say with certainty.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on July 31, 2019, 10:17:29 AM
I also think that a small amount of balls in a big box will probably dry out faster.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on August 11, 2019, 12:49:18 PM
Found this video by gsans baking in the P134H, seemingly without any turning. Not sure about the size, but maybe a bit smaller than I usually make. I think that can be an interesting idea to pursue.

https://youtu.be/6xkEuaevsu0

I found a lot of interesting stuff in gsans' topic: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25848.200

Here's one about a 40s pie: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25848.msg329167#msg329167
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on August 13, 2019, 06:38:02 AM
While searching for hand kneading techniques I came across a topic on making the dough on La Confraternita Della Pizza: https://laconfraternitadellapizza.forumfree.it/?t=69820571

I don't understand Italian and even if I did, the audio is not top notch. I'll read through the topic to look for some details, but if someone could tell me if he mention the resting time after the third stage, I'd appreciate it. I assume it would be at the end of video #3 or beginning of #4.

I might have something to gain from improving the dough handling/mixing/kneading part.

Once again I regret my decision to buy a wooden countertop. Most of all I'd want one in stainless steel. Oh well, we won't live in this apartment forever. Until then I got a table I can use. :)

Almost done with my two-week shift at work, so I'll get back to making some pizza very soon. Probably by the weekend. Reading this (and other) forums during the weeks I can't make pizza is a great way to build up my enthusiasm and want to make more.  :chef: :pizza:

Here's an interesting nugget from the LCDP topic I posted above:
Quote
If we use plastic crates, the dough should always have a single degree of hydration and we can never hydrate it more than usual, because we would find a slime.

Instead, using wooden crates, we can vary the hydration, choosing the one we want to make the most, knowing that the wooden box will dry up most of the excess moisture.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 14, 2019, 08:25:43 AM
I don't understand Italian and even if I did, the audio is not top notch. I'll read through the topic to look for some details, but if someone could tell me if he mention the resting time after the third stage, I'd appreciate it. I assume it would be at the end of video #3 or beginning of #4.

I'm not fluent in Italian, but I know some so I took on the challenge as an excercise. Heikjo, I'm not sure what you mean by "after the third stage", but what I got is that the dough is an 8 hour direct dough without rests. In reality there seems to be a small rest of 3-5 minutes before forming the panetti (in video 3 at the 10 minute mark, he says to take a 3 minute break, the video ends, and in the beginning of video 4 he says 5 minutes, as in "5 minutes have passed" I presume).

Other facts gleemed from the videos:

By the way: If video 5 and 6 show the same dough after fermentation, my mind is thoroughly blown!

Edit: Yeast amount in baker's percentage is 0,2%, which matches Craig's prediction chart nicely for 8 hours at room temp (chart says 23.3įC). On a related note, the nerd in me finds it interesting to note this very minor point: Since flour is "q.b.", i.e. he stops when he decides it's enough, precise yeast percentage cannot really be known in advance. But by using water as reference (as they do in Naples) that would not be the case.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on August 14, 2019, 01:08:42 PM
Yes in Naples (Italy in general) the pizza recipes are based on one liter of water.

I read through this thread and Di Matteo wanted to do something special that people wouldn't already be used to.  He chose this to illustrate a few different things.  One of them is the arriving at the point of pasta and that everyone would arrive at the punto di pasta with differing amounts of flour left over depending on how exactly they mixed the dough.  He also wanted to point out that using wooden boxes would make the hydration amount less important as it will absorb humidity and balls with varying hydration would all be easy to work with.  He explains the reason for practically no puntata (bulk phase) as it not being needed with modern (stronger) flours, he said that a puntata was traditionally used to give the gluten some time to develop with the weaker flours used in the past.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: DoouBall on August 14, 2019, 02:54:30 PM
Yes in Naples (Italy in general) the pizza recipes are based on one liter of water.

I read through this thread and Di Matteo wanted to do something special that people wouldn't already be used to.  He chose this to illustrate a few different things.  One of them is the arriving at the point of pasta and that everyone would arrive at the punto di pasta with differing amounts of flour left over depending on how exactly they mixed the dough.  He also wanted to point out that using wooden boxes would make the hydration amount less important as it will absorb humidity and balls with varying hydration would all be easy to work with.  He explains the reason for practically no puntata (bulk phase) as it not being needed with modern (stronger) flours, he said that a puntata was traditionally used to give the gluten some time to develop with the weaker flours used in the past.

That sounds mostly right - the missing element here is that too long in balls and the dough becomes very relaxed making it hard to achieve a very nice cornicione shape and maximum height. This may not matter if you're going for a short total ferment - say 8-10 hours in total. But if you're going for a 24+ hour ferment, extending the bulk is a useful technique.

Just like making a high hydration loaf of bread and leaving it to ferment too long in its final shape can cause it to sag, the same thing happens with pizza dough balls. One of the benefits of a longer bulk ferment is that it allows a shorter time in balls leading to an easier to shape and taller cornicione...if that's what you want. This happens both because the bulk ferment builds strength in the dough and the short time in balls allows them to be both extensible and elastic during stretching. When they're fully relaxed, ready to collapse, or already collapsed, you can still make a great pizza, but the cornicione won't be of maximum height any longer. Some people and some styles of pizza (NY Style, Elite NYC pizza, Da Michele) just don't seem to care about cornicione height or look so for them a long ferment in balls with a short bulk makes more sense.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on August 14, 2019, 03:03:34 PM
Yes I agree with keeping the apretto relatively short.  IMO minimum 4 hours and then maybe up to 10-12.  I normally go for 8 hours or so.

I forgot that one of the things DM wanted to point out is that one can also make a good pizza in only 8 hours.  He thought it would be useful as he had the impression that many of the brothers probably had little experience of such a short maturation period and it's qualities.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on August 14, 2019, 03:30:26 PM
Not quite sure what flour he used, he writes "Polselli Blu", if he refered to this: http://www.polselli.it/prodotto/classica/ then it has a W of 270 (+-5%) and P/L of 0,50 (+-5%).
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 14, 2019, 03:33:13 PM
Not quite sure what flour he used, he writes "Polselli Blu", if he refered to this: http://www.polselli.it/prodotto/classica/ then it has a W of 270 (+-5%) and P/L of 0,50 (+-5%).

Thanks for that, I had it on my todo list to investigate that flour.  :chef:
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 14, 2019, 03:38:15 PM
Yes in Naples (Italy in general) the pizza recipes are based on one liter of water.

I read through this thread and Di Matteo wanted to do something special that people wouldn't already be used to.  He chose this to illustrate a few different things.  One of them is the arriving at the point of pasta and that everyone would arrive at the punto di pasta with differing amounts of flour left over depending on how exactly they mixed the dough.  He also wanted to point out that using wooden boxes would make the hydration amount less important as it will absorb humidity and balls with varying hydration would all be easy to work with.  He explains the reason for practically no puntata (bulk phase) as it not being needed with modern (stronger) flours, he said that a puntata was traditionally used to give the gluten some time to develop with the weaker flours used in the past.

Can you make out what he says in video 3 at 4:06? He is explaining the "lift and drop" motion that he's doing, which I am curious about. It sounds like he's saying it simulates the motions of a diving arm mixer. Did I get that right? (does not seem right, why would one simulate a diving arm mixer, which in turn is said to be simulating hand kneading ???  :-D )
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on August 14, 2019, 04:01:55 PM
I just watched the first part and yes it's Polselli Classica that he uses.  And hehe, he put the fresh yeast on top of the salt.. :)  I guess to prove another point..  I'll have to try to listen to that part to see if he says that it doesn't matter if you quickly mix salt and yeast, or if he says it has to do with killing part of the yeast to get some glutathione released into the dough.

Arne: What I can understand is that he says that it's like there's a sort of simulation of braci tuffanti (diving arms).  I suppose he thinks this manipulation does something good for his gluten development.  If you watch the videos in detail there are lots of little things like that.  I learnt a lot, and could still learn incredibly much more about hand kneading from these videos.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on August 15, 2019, 02:59:14 AM
I'm not fluent in Italian, but I know some so I took on the challenge as an excercise. Heikjo, I'm not sure what you mean by "after the third stage", but what I got is that the dough is an 8 hour direct dough without rests. In reality there seems to be a small rest of 3-5 minutes before forming the panetti (in video 3 at the 10 minute mark, he says to take a 3 minute break, the video ends, and in the beginning of video 4 he says 5 minutes, as in "5 minutes have passed" I presume).
Thanks! I meant at the end of the third video. How long it rested after he put the bowl upside-down on the dough. 3-5 minutes then.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on August 19, 2019, 05:22:45 PM
Thanks! I meant at the end of the third video. How long it rested after he put the bowl upside-down on the dough. 3-5 minutes then.

He says (roughly translated) that the dough isn't very smooth, so we let it rest for two or three minutes.  Then in the fourth video he says that it's been five minutes (these things happen in Italy). :)  Then he shows how smooth it gets.  And at 45s in the fourth video he shows his punto di pasta.  That's what he's looking for.

You can also see that he still has some left over flour on the bench, so he probably hit an even higher hydration that we thought...

He says that it's like a Formula 1 race without a pit stop. :)  He says that a puntata (bulk phase) isn't really needed with modern flours, it was traditionally used to let the weaker flours of the past develop more gluten.

In the first video he's mixing the water, salt, and yeast.  He says the normal procedure is to start with the water, then dissolve the salt, then add half of the flour and then the yeast.  But at 1.15s he says (roughly translated) that if you initiate this process (mixing the salt and the yeast as he does), substances are released that change the characteristics of the dough. In a direct dough like this, it makes it last longer.

Da Michele seems to do the same.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on August 20, 2019, 04:59:11 AM
Two sessions the last days, so I'll break it into two posts.

This was a pretty standard ~24H SD dough. I took a photo of the bottom of the skin, which I still think looks too spotty. I want to try making a batch with 3-4 pies and throw it in the Kenwood to see if that makes a difference. Back when I made IDY in the mixer, I think the skin came out a lot more even. That was also with a different flour. It might also have been fridge doughs.

On the last pie I turned down the thermostat 50C. This resulted in a less burnt bottom and some 10s longer bake.

Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on August 20, 2019, 05:13:37 AM
I made an impulse dough yesterday, first time trying CY. I checked Craig's chart, but also read some of Arne's posts since he uses the same kind. He uses half of what the chart suggests, which was a good thing to know. I hand kneaded the dough for 10 minutes, but can't say it was clear if this had any effect.

My scale is no more accurate than it was before, so I can't say if I ended up with 0.54g, 0.4g or 0.65g. It was planned for ~20 hours, but it was ready at 7AM. The pluviometer wasn't quite skyrocketing, but it was headed that way, showing 26 mm/m≤. I could've put them in the fridge, but it was a good opportunity to have pizza for breakfast.

The doughs were 10 hours in balls by the time of baking, and they cooperated pretty well. Can't say I noticed any difference from the SD doughs in that aspect. One thing I did different today was making them smaller. I use to stretch them all the way to the edge of the 30cm wide peel, but today I didn't go that far. The balls should probably have been a bit smaller for the size. Out of the oven, the pies were 26 and 28cm.

Both pies were baked for exactly 60 seconds without any turning or opening of the door. I made sure to get them a bit away from the door, but not all the way into the back. I think it worked quite well and they browned fairly even. Still a bit much burnt on the bottoms, but I won't put all blame on the oven there. The oven setting was the usual Gospel of Amolapizza ģ, which I realized was the upper at 375, not 400.

I want to try to find a way to shield the stone from the upper element to avoid it getting too hot. Maybe I can use the original stone, raised on some metal thingy.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 21, 2019, 12:44:35 PM
Very nice looking set of pies I think. The last post shows a little more browning on the cornicione than your previous ones. That darker shade becomes them, I think. :)

My scale is no more accurate than it was before, so I can't say if I ended up with 0.54g, 0.4g or 0.65g. It was planned for ~20 hours, but it was ready at 7AM. The pluviometer wasn't quite skyrocketing, but it was headed that way, showing 26 mm/m≤. I could've put them in the fridge, but it was a good opportunity to have pizza for breakfast.

It's a good thing you were flexible. :-)

Like you say, I too use "Idun blue" fresh yeast, and I've commented a few times that I generally use about half of the amount suggested by The Chart. This is true, but I may have glossed over the fact that I may use even less, sometimes as little as 35% of what the prediction table says.

How much I end up using depends on how fresh the yeast is. When formulating the recipe, I guesstimate the scaling factor based on the freshness of the yeast and my notes from previous batches (I usually calculate the actual scaling factor after each bake, and though I haven't crunched the numbers thoroughly, it looks like 50% is a good rule of thumb -- except when using very fresh yeast. Then it's closer to 35-40%).

Anyway, those pizzas look great and you got yourself a healty breakfast.  :chef:
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on August 21, 2019, 01:19:56 PM
Could it be that the chart is dialed in for a doubling of the balls?  Still I suspect that the result will also change depending on the finished dough temp and also the ratio of bulk/ball time.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on August 21, 2019, 01:40:02 PM
I don't know if volumetric rise was considered when making the chart, or what size it would aim for. There's of course differences from brand to brand. That dough did get some heat from the kneading and spending time in RT. And there's of course the unreliable scale.

Any suggestions on a scale that can work for miniscule amounts of IDY? I know there are many labeled with "0.01", but that doesn't mean it can detect the difference between 0.01 and 0.02 reliably. Even a good mg scale can have linearity of 0.005. I thought about getting a proper milligram scale ($100), but it's maybe a bit overkill and a proper 0.01 scale does the trick.

I will always use starter if I can, but it's nice having options and IDY is much more practical for me. I don't make enough pizza to spend even a small part of a CY cube and I'd have to buy one before use. The IDY I can just keep in the fridge for months.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 21, 2019, 02:18:56 PM
Could it be that the chart is dialed in for a doubling of the balls?  Still I suspect that the result will also change depending on the finished dough temp and also the ratio of bulk/ball time.

Many variables and hard to be sure, but here's the thing: I've noted with interest that I can use the SD chart as is. I've been doing that for years (with some exceptions, when my culture was not well). However, I always need to make adjustments when using the yeast charts (both CY and IDY), and the changes I make are relatively predictable. Given that I aim for the same result regardless of yeast type, and I assume the charts do too, I've therefore concluded that the scaling factor I apply is largely due to the yeast.

I could be wrong, but it is an assumption that serves me well so far. :)
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on August 21, 2019, 02:35:36 PM
I suspect that hydration, hardness of the water, salinity, etc have a relatively large impact too, so I guess it can just serve as a starting point.  My personal experience has always been that I have to compensate so it takes a few tries to get the recipe working well.  Just too many variables in a dough, too complex a system to predict.  Still it's very nice to have a idea of where to start..!!!
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on August 21, 2019, 03:35:38 PM
Many variables and hard to be sure, but here's the thing: I've noted with interest that I can use the SD chart as is. I've been doing that for years (with some exceptions, when my culture was not well). However, I always need to make adjustments when using the yeast charts (both CY and IDY), and the changes I make are relatively predictable. Given that I aim for the same result regardless of yeast type, and I assume the charts do too, I've therefore concluded that the scaling factor I apply is largely due to the yeast.

I could be wrong, but it is an assumption that serves me well so far. :)
What numbers do you use? I base my SD amount on previous experience. I rarely do anything except something between 12-48 hours in 15C. I used the chart initially for 48 hour doughs, and while it was a bit generous with the starter amount, it was a good place to start. Where I don't understand the chart is for 24 hour doughs. With my schedule, it predicts 24% starter for 24 hours in 15C. I use 2.5% these days. I suspect that the model is a lot more reliable in some areas than others.

I did a quick check, and for 24 hours at 22C, it predicts 2.3%. At 24 hours at 15C it predicts 24.6%. I don't do 22C, so I don't know what amount I would need, but it would certainly be lower than 2.3%. Craig says the chart is unreliable below 55F, but I suspect it becomes unreliable before that too.

The charts are also based on forum members' input on their starter amount, which could be for doughs beyond 2x the volume.

I'm trying out a new flour called Petra 3. I just picked it up from an Italian store. It has a distinct look, almost wholemeal, not sure why. I bought the pack so I might as well give it a go. It says to be good for pizza and focaccia, so if the pizza doesn't work out, I can always make some focaccia. Just a single ball for tomorrow.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on August 21, 2019, 04:19:03 PM
Italians seem to like the Petra flours a lot.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Arne_Jervell on August 21, 2019, 04:20:14 PM
What numbers do you use? I base my SD amount on previous experience. I rarely do anything except something between 12-48 hours in 15C. I used the chart initially for 48 hour doughs, and while it was a bit generous with the starter amount, it was a good place to start. Where I don't understand the chart is for 24 hour doughs. With my schedule, it predicts 24% starter for 24 hours in 15C. I use 2.5% these days. I suspect that the model is a lot more reliable in some areas than others.

I did a quick check, and for 24 hours at 22C, it predicts 2.3%. At 24 hours at 15C it predicts 24.6%. I don't do 22C, so I don't know what amount I would need, but it would certainly be lower than 2.3%. Craig says the chart is unreliable below 55F, but I suspect it becomes unreliable before that too.

The charts are also based on forum members' input on their starter amount, which could be for doughs beyond 2x the volume.

I'm trying out a new flour called Petra 3. I just picked it up from an Italian store. It has a distinct look, almost wholemeal, not sure why. I bought the pack so I might as well give it a go. It says to be good for pizza and focaccia, so if the pizza doesn't work out, I can always make some focaccia. Just a single ball for tomorrow.

I've never gone as low as 15įC I think. I usually ferment at whatever room temps are available to me. It does happen that I used my "fermentation chamber", where I can control temperatures precisely. But even then I tend to keep it just a few degrees below RT.
 
I just looked up my 10 most recent bakes with SD. Total fermentation times range from 16.5 to 26.5 (avg 20.6), temps from 19.5 to 23.0 (avg 21.7) and SD percentages, as used, vary from 1.3% to 6.6%. My personal correction factor, calculated "after the fact" as I have explained elsewhere, was between .9 and 1.1 (avg 1.0), which is amazingly spot on! :-)

A small anecdote: Nowadays I rely heavily (not exclusively) on the pluviometer to signal when the dough is ready, and I prefer about 1.7x rise. However, I found the chart to be equally precise before the introduction of the fermentation spy in my routine. Back then, I drew mostly on advice from this forum to determine dough readiness. For example, Craig's description and illustration of the under side of the dough when in transparent containers. 

Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on August 21, 2019, 04:29:47 PM
The flour had a different feel to it than Caputo. Will be interesting to see how it looks tomorrow. I won't switch to Petra unless the results are dramatically better (which I don't expect them to be), as it is pretty expensive.

Very nice looking set of pies I think. The last post shows a little more browning on the cornicione than your previous ones. That darker shade becomes them, I think. :)
I absolutely agree. Many of my pies has been too pale. The results of pies without turning was encouraging. It might even help avoid a too burnt bottom if the total time in the oven is shorter. I suspect that I lose more of the ambient temp that aids in baking the top than the stone. The stone may even get a little bump up since it's exposed to the element when I'm turning the pie.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Icelandr on August 21, 2019, 06:22:23 PM
I have been using this scale for a couple of years now. The Canadian amazon link will of course be useless, but the name and description should help


https://www.amazon.ca/Smart-Weigh-GEM20-Precision-Milligram/dp/B00ESHDGOI/ref=sr_1_28?crid=P3IXRT1COWTH&keywords=scale+grams&qid=1566425976&s=gateway&sprefix=Scale%2Caps%2C253&sr=8-28 (https://www.amazon.ca/Smart-Weigh-GEM20-Precision-Milligram/dp/B00ESHDGOI/ref=sr_1_28?crid=P3IXRT1COWTH&keywords=scale+grams&qid=1566425976&s=gateway&sprefix=Scale%2Caps%2C253&sr=8-28)
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: DoouBall on August 22, 2019, 01:02:06 PM
I used Petra 3 once and really liked it - the flavor js quite earthy and different from 00 flour as it js a Tipo 1 flour and I believe it has 6.9g fiber per 100g, so in theory it is healthier for digestion. It takes a lot more water - 68% seemed similar to a 63-65% hydrated 00 flour.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on August 22, 2019, 04:01:34 PM
Results are in. 62% HR, 24 hours in 15C, 20 of them in balls, last two hours to RT, 26 on the pluvio.

The dough felt stickier, but that may have to do with the recent weather. Hot and humid. It may be a good flour for some autolyse. I left it out some 10 minutes uncovered, but could have done 20. Needed some flour to dry it up a bit. It opened pretty well, felt a bit different than Caputo. More like clay, less elastic and more moldable.

Prepping and launching was no problem. We had some leftover bolognese, so that ended up on the pizza. I spread some olive oil on it first since the bolognese was quite dry. Topped with some Jarlsberg, which is similar to Gouda.

Baked in 65 seconds without turning. The crumb was a bit denser than Caputo, but pretty soft and had a nice feel to it. A bit more substance when you chew it. "Earthy" was my first thought too, and it was not unpleasant. It was a nice change from the Caputo, so I think I will spend the bag on pizzas.

All in all a very good pizza.

Does it have more color because it is tipo 1?
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: DoouBall on August 22, 2019, 04:18:25 PM
Looks very tasty! Yes I believe it does brown better just due to being a Type 1 - most likely due to more enzymes in the germ/bran compared to a 00. Certainly, my petra 3 dough browned very well.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Yael on August 23, 2019, 01:40:55 AM
Not sure if there's enzyme in the bran - at least not amylase (in the germ yes for sure).
I also noticed that wholewheat-kind flours' crusts are browner after baking, I just assumed that if was the presence of the bran itself. It would be interesting to know if there are also more enzymes as you say Doouball!
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: DoouBall on August 23, 2019, 03:10:54 AM
Yael, you are probably right that itís the germ more than the bran than contributes enzymes. Also, the germ is rich in sugar which should help as well:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/agricultural-and-biological-sciences/wheat-germ

Finally, if memory serves me right, Petra 3 has 13%+ protein and this also contributes to browning compared to a lower protein flour.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on August 23, 2019, 05:06:07 PM
Yep. Says 13.5% on the bag. Thanks for the insight.

I wanted to try a 48h dough again and made it yesterday. It is now 27 hours old and the pluviometer says 25... Dang it. The dough went into the fridge for now (it's 11PM). It's still in bulk, so I guess I'll take it out tomorrow morning, ball and put it back in the cooler and hope it doesn't go skyrocketing. Time to try RT+CT I guess.

Last time I made 48h doughs I was using 4% starter. Either that one was a bit off, or this current one is very potent. The feeding regiment probably helps. Oh well. I'll have to dial it down for next time then. Maybe I should start paying attention to FDT after all and not keep it for too long in RT for kneading and resting. 48 hours will develop the gluten either way.

I've revived the Ischa starter and will give it a go one day. Back when i first got it I thought it was extremely potent since I had to go down below 2% starter for 24h. Guess my own starter back then wasn't in top form.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on August 23, 2019, 05:45:33 PM
I am slowly understanding that the FDT is important for consistency, as the warmer the dough is when you finish kneading it, the faster it will levitate.  I've started taking measurements and taking measures to achieve a steady FDT, like cold water, cold flour, etc.  Seems logical that if fermentation depends on the temperature, then fermentation will also depend on FDT.  It's not all that hard to strive for consistency in this respect.

It's also great that with a bit of experience we can control the fermentation rate by changing the temperature.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: DoouBall on August 23, 2019, 07:12:02 PM
Yep. Says 13.5% on the bag. Thanks for the insight.

I wanted to try a 48h dough again and made it yesterday. It is now 27 hours old and the pluviometer says 25... Dang it. The dough went into the fridge for now (it's 11PM). It's still in bulk, so I guess I'll take it out tomorrow morning, ball and put it back in the cooler and hope it doesn't go skyrocketing. Time to try RT+CT I guess.

Last time I made 48h doughs I was using 4% starter. Either that one was a bit off, or this current one is very potent. The feeding regiment probably helps. Oh well. I'll have to dial it down for next time then. Maybe I should start paying attention to FDT after all and not keep it for too long in RT for kneading and resting. 48 hours will develop the gluten either way.

I've revived the Ischa starter and will give it a go one day. Back when i first got it I thought it was extremely potent since I had to go down below 2% starter for 24h. Guess my own starter back then wasn't in top form.

I learned in sourdough bread baking class that generally speaking, whole wheat ferments faster than white flour. That's one of the reasons we often create sourdough starters with a large addition of whole wheat. Based on that, it would stand to reason that a flour like a Tipo 1 which is halfway between 00 and whole wheat, would ferment faster than 00 as well.

There is a good explanation of this effect here: "All other things being equal, a dough made with whole wheat flour will ferment faster than one made of white flour. The reason for this is simple: whole wheat flour contains more nutrients for the yeast to feed on than white flour. "

https://www.abreaducation.com/content/baking-bread-with-whole-wheat-flour
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on August 24, 2019, 01:54:54 AM
That's right, but this dough was made with Caputo.

It probably takes some time for the dough to cool down, I never measured it, but it has to cool down the container, the air inside the container and the dough. Letting the container sit in the cooler for some time before putting the dough in also helps control temperature.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on August 26, 2019, 04:49:08 AM
Here's an idea I found on a french forum while googling p134h mods.

Remove the supporting bar for the upper resistance and place the bar above instead.  This will result in it being closer to the biscotto in the front of the oven, thus heating the front a bit more.  Apparently you should also tie the resistance to the bar with some metal wire to avoid it vibrating (noise) while the fan is running.

https://www.noelshack.com/2018-32-3-1533726625-20180808-115416.jpg
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on August 26, 2019, 05:23:35 AM
Hmm. Not sure if I understand what they did there, or why it brought it closer to the front?
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on August 26, 2019, 06:26:54 AM
Normally the bar is under the element holding it up, when putting the bar above the element it will push it slightly lower so that it will be closer to the stone in the front (it's no longer parallel to the stone).

An easy cost free mod to try, but I have no idea what kind of difference it makes.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on August 26, 2019, 07:52:51 AM
Is that a different version from mine? I don't see what I can do with that bracket on mine.

I think I understand the idea though. You tilt the front of the upper element slightly down towards the stone. Should be possible to achieve even if my bracket is different. Maybe just slip the element out of the bracket slots so it rests below them.

I imagine there's a balance when doing this that ideally should even out. You also lower the middle of the element slightly, bringing it closer to the stone.

On the triple glass version that I got, I wondered if I could slide some rockwool down between the first and second glass, closest to the oven.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on August 26, 2019, 08:17:47 AM
Ah yes, yours is different...  I don't have the holder that you have, just a bar that can be removed.  Who knows maybe you can try to remove it from the bracket/holder, don't know how hard it is to bend the element.

You could try, but I'd wrap it in aluminum or aluminum tape so that no fibers can come out.  I'm trying to understand and google this stuff about isolating the door, still haven't found any real good answers yet.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on August 26, 2019, 08:39:21 AM
This answer from F1 addresses an earlier question that you had about turning the thermostats to 0: https://pizzanapo.fr/index.php?/topic/981-ventilation-p134h/&tab=comments#comment-20546
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on August 26, 2019, 12:32:26 PM
Made a single one with Ischia today. First time I've used the starter for a long time. I've been feeding it the same stuff I feed my own starter, so it's probably less itself than it was when I first got it. It has a different smell than my own and both seem to be equally active now.

24 hours fermentation. It was 27 when I pulled it out to RT for an hour.

Turned out very good, even with a day-old fridged sauce and not the most interesting cow mozzarella. Probably my best pie so far with this starter. Difficult to say anything about difference in taste compared to my own. I should make one with each some day to try.

It was probably around 28cm and no turning. I launched it quite far back, so it ended up a little less baked there, as you can see at the top of the first photo, but not too bad. 60 seconds in the oven. 60g of mozzarella today after having used 80 on some occasions. 60g is a better fit for this size I think.

I came across some tomatoes and mozzarella I haven't tried before the other day, so I bought some. Probably have to use parts of the tomatoes one day and some of it the next, but if it's kept in the jar and stored in the fridge after opening I suppose it should be fine.

Yeah, that's what the manual said, amolapizza. Since the fan doesn't turn off, there's no problem anymore. I wasn't planning on unplugging it anyway.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Hanglow on August 26, 2019, 04:49:15 PM
Looking good imo.  I like that garofalo mozz, has decent flavour and a nice tang. 
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on September 01, 2019, 05:37:14 PM
My starters are having the time of their lives recently. My last 48h attempt with 1.5% starter was ready after 24 hours. The one I got in there now at 1% was ready after 38 hours, so I balled it and turned the temperature in the cooler down to 10C, so hopefully it will be usable tomorrow morning. Guess I'll try 0.5% next time then.

I've noticed my bread doughs are also very quick recently. Just two hours bulk and they are ready for shaping.

I've also had an idea to use autolyse in a way to improve consistency. The plan is to autolyse all or almost all the water and flour, put it in the cooler and let it sit 2-3 hours. Then I add salt and starter, mix and fold it a bit, and if I want to do more folds with rests between, I'll put it in the cooler during the rests to avoid it warming up too much. I think that could improve temperature consistency, even if RT changes. Autolyse might also help in getting a nice texture on the dough without needing too many fold and rest periods.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Yael on September 01, 2019, 11:07:08 PM
Heikjo,

You only use SD, no yeast, right?

You make me want to try again SD (I tried a couple of times before, but even at 15% it needed yeast... And I see you and other members use like 1% !), but making pizza once a week is not enough for me to use and feed a SD (lot of flour waste...). But I definitely will, one day  :angel:
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on September 02, 2019, 02:28:06 AM
Yes, only SD. They've mostly been kept in RT for a long time now and fed 2-3 times a day. When I have to go away, I reduce hydration a bit and put them in the fridge.

There are ways to manage a starter with less feeding, but I was curious to see what happened with this regime. I have never needed as little starter as now before.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: DoouBall on September 03, 2019, 04:46:45 PM
I've also had an idea to use autolyse in a way to improve consistency. The plan is to autolyse all or almost all the water and flour, put it in the cooler and let it sit 2-3 hours. Then I add salt and starter, mix and fold it a bit, and if I want to do more folds with rests between, I'll put it in the cooler during the rests to avoid it warming up too much. I think that could improve temperature consistency, even if RT changes. Autolyse might also help in getting a nice texture on the dough without needing too many fold and rest periods.

Heikjo, I wanted to share with you some things I learned about autolyse through some experiments as well as discussions I've had lately with a couple of pro Italian pizzamakers.

If you do a simple 20 minute autolyse after combining flour + water, that won't affect your dough too much, so you can feel free to do that without making any other changes. However, if you do a long autolyse, such as 4-5 hours at room temp or overnight in the fridge, the autolyse dramatically changes your dough. Of course, there is the added extensibility and automatic gluten development. More important to consider though is that the enzymes break out sugars from the starch bonds and they become immediately available to the yeasts. That means two things after the yeast/sourdough is added:

1. Your yeasts feed ravenously right away increasing the rate of fermentation.
2. Your yeasts will consume all the available sugar faster than without the autolyse.

For this reason, it has been recommended to me to shorten or eliminate the bulk fermentation step altogether when using a long autolyse. I believe this is similar to what Renato (SAUZER) does when he autolyses for 2-3 hours, bulks for 2 hours and then leaves in ball for 19 hours. Without reducing the length of bulk, you risk not only a pale crust but also an overly slack dough. A similar problem can occur when making a dough out of a large amount of poolish - there is much less room for error in timing your bake.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you do a long autolyse, where the main benefits of autolyse really kick in, it's important to actually modify the rest of your dough process to account for the changes brought about by the autolyse.

Another way to achieve this effect is simply to do a long bulk fermentation. If you're already doing that, you already have the benefits of the autolyse without the possible downside of running out of sugar early and a pale crust. That's why Craig's 24 hour bulk, 24 hour ball recipe doesn't include an autolyse step - it happens naturally during an extended bulk.

If your primary goal is to increase consistency, I would suggest your efforts would be better spent on ensuring consistency in yeast/sourdough strength and quantity, amount and temperatures of water/flour/dough as well as precise timings between folds, rests and dough storage. You're probably already doing all of this - I believe that's where the consistency pays off. You sound like a guy who has done his research, so most of this is probably not news - hopefully this post is beneficial to you anyway. Cheers!
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on September 03, 2019, 05:08:35 PM
First of all, thanks for that, DoouBall. Very useful information that I hadn't considered.

I had two reasons to look into autolyse. One was that it served as an easy way to mix all the major ingredients and let them reach my target fermentation temperature. That could of course be achieved without mixing them too. The other (and most important) was to try to achieve a better dough structure. I'm still not sure if my balls open to skins as well as they could. There are some very thin areas that seems to come from irregularities in the balls. Not that I expect them to be 100% uniform, but I was hoping there were ways to improve from where I'm at now. If autolyse can make any difference here, I don't know.

I was initially thinking about 2-4 hours, either at RT or in the cooler, most likely a match to whatever ambient temperature I was planning to ferment in.

I like doing 24-48h ferments at 15C, so maybe autolyse isn't ideal. But is there a difference let's say between a 24 hour dough where you add all the ingredients at the same time, compared to one where you autolyse for 4 hours at RT, then add the rest and leave for 20 hours, for a total of 24 hours? Does the autolyse make the sugars more available to a point where the total fermentation time should be shortened?

I got a dough going right now as an experiment. It's probably my first dough fermented in RT over more than 12 hours. When making the dough this morning at 10AM I was thinking that it would probably be ready at 3AM. I was not wrong, because after sitting pretty at 16 for the entire day, it was not at 19, so it would never have made it through the night.

I balled and put them in the cooler at 15C. Might not be enough to slow it down, but I've made pizza with balls that went past 40 before, so it might work out fine.

The purpose was to see if I could find a difference between my 15C doughs and 24C doughs. I usually take them out of the cooler 1-2 hours before, but they don't make it to RT when opening. I was also curious to see if there were any differences simply from fermenting at a higher temperature.

The dough felt quite nice to work with now that I balled them, so this experiment will have to repeated another day. I'll need to use less starter or mix the dough in the evening.

I've also started making a better effort at registering the fermentation. I've written some down manually here and there during a doughs development, but I want to aim a webcam at the pluviometer and make graphs that show how it fermented.

I came across some scamorza affumicata today (smoked mozzarella). I think I've seen it mentioned on the forum somewhere. Maybe I'll pick it up one day and try it.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: DoouBall on September 03, 2019, 05:55:20 PM
Sounds like you got yourself some fun experiments to try!

On the subject of thin spots, there are a couple of possible reasons and solutions.

If the issue is that the dough is not very evenly mixed and has some lumps, a couple of options are available for improvement.

1)Mix like Ciro Salvio does in this video - very easy to get a real smooth dough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBTa3n_0N-A&t=29s

2)Try the pincer method from Ken Forkish - it allows very easy incorporation of lumps from the outside of the dough to the inside, making the whole thing smooth and even:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HoY7CPw0E1s

If on the other hand, the issue is with the balling process, try a few different methods to ball and stretch your dough - thin spots often come from uneven balling or uneven stretching. There are lots of good methods on YouTube - I'm sure you will find one you like best.

One tip that works for me when balling is - don't use any flour. Do the whole process in the air and make sure that the seam is perfectly closed on the bottom. Using flour during balling can prevent the folds from smoothing out inside the dough ball and that can lead to an uneven stretch at the end.  Here's an example, balling process starts around 3:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LyBVGXfzGqM&t=56s

Good luck!
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on September 04, 2019, 07:34:17 AM
Great videos, thank you!

I'm not sure if there actually is a problem, and if there is, where it lies. I really need to get that lightscreen plan of mine going. I think that could be interesting.

On mixing I think I'll try something similar to what Ciro does. I usually just throw everything in a bowl and mix it, then give it a rest or two with some kneading and folding after each rest. Adding the flour part by part might help distribute it better. This was another reason for the autolyse attempt. I wanted to give the water and flour a change to get to know eachother before adding the remaining ingredients.

Based on what I've seen on videos, I think my balling technique is fine. Can of course always be improved upon, but I pretty much do what some of these videos demonstrate. Flour is never used in that process, just in the air with my hands. I think the thin spots are more a result of the air in the balls than something lingering from the mixing and balling. That may just be how a Neapolitan dough is supposed to look. I will try different degrees of fermentation. I'm usually on the high side of things.

The balls from last night ended up fine. When I got up at 7AM the pluviometer read 27. The balls then spent a few hours in RT to warm up and opened up nicely. If anything, maybe a bit far fermented since they had some large rim-bubbles I had to pop or cut off after bake. When I was ready to open, the first was still a bit sticky, so I held it in front of the fan exhaust of the oven. That worked very well to get rid of the last moisture sitting on top of the balls.

I even remembered to add olive oil to the margherita before launching today. I probably forget 9/10 times. And I remembered basil.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: DoouBall on September 04, 2019, 11:00:09 AM
Hey bud, I'm sure your process is perfectly fine - I was just suggesting a couple of things to try - hope I didn't offend.

Your latest pizzas look great! I'd eat that Margherita right now!!!
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on September 04, 2019, 11:11:20 AM
Hey bud, I'm sure your process is perfectly fine - I was just suggesting a couple of things to try - hope I didn't offend.

Your latest pizzas look great! I'd eat that Margherita right now!!!
Not at all, Doou. I always appreciate input and ideas and don't take offense to any feedback. Wouldn't be here if I didn't. As I said, I don't know what I could improve on and what is probably fine, so everything is worth evaluating.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on September 09, 2019, 10:59:07 AM
I recalled Yael's drawing of using the dough closer towards the peak of its fermentation, and read through some of pizzadaheim's posts since he uses dough that is very fermented. He also use 65-70% hydration and fermentation in 24-25C. I don't understand how that works, but maybe the balling timing is an important part of it. Still, just working with 70% hydration sounds difficult. Maybe I'll have to try it once and see what happens.

I used 4.5% starter and it was 27 after 22 hours. I put the dough in the cooler between foldings, which probably slowed it down compared to normal.

After 22 hours I took the dough out, balled and left at RT another 7 hours.

Working with very fermented balls I didn't want to take any chances, so I used a lot of bench flour, but only after letting the balls ventilate for 15-20 minutes first. They were quite dimply, like a golf ball, but behaved very well and opened nicely. I opened them with intention to not push air into the rim. The skin felt thicker than usual, more bloated.

The first pie went well, but the second sadly never made it into the oven. It tore at the side going farthest into the oven after it was on the peel and when I tried to mend it, time were not my friend and everything started to stick to the peel. I've had a disaster covering an entire room in smoke before, so I ditched it.

The positive is that the pie I did bake was really good. Softer and more tender crust than I've had in a long time, and I expect more fermentation to be the reason.

I want to continue experimenting with highly fermented doughs, but hope I can find a way that doesn't introduce too much risk of tearing.

The skin on the video below (by pizzadaheim) looks so smooth and homogeneous, I don't understand how it's possible. Poor lighting though, maybe it looks better on camera than IRL, but still.

https://youtu.be/_5zgnEYt_zM
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: DoouBall on September 09, 2019, 11:57:35 AM
pizzadaheim and others who make Neapolitan style pies using 70% hydrations typically don't use sourdough. Sourdough has much stronger protease activity which tends to degrade the gluten more than fresh yeast and as a result, a 70% hydrated sourdough base like yours will be much more slack, stretch almost too easily, and may tear if allowed to stretch too thin. It's still workable, just a bit more challenging.

One of the best things I learned in working with high hydration pizzas such is to use semola rimanciata as your dusting flour. Makes stretching and handling much much easier. Regular flour can get absorbed right in the dough and within seconds, the dough is wet and sticking again. Semola tends to create a powder coating on the outside of the dough that keeps it "dry" long enough to stretch, top and bake. Good luck!
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on September 09, 2019, 12:10:52 PM
Good point, Doou. Maybe there are some differences at play there too regarding higher fermentation.

I can try semola for my current recipes too, since sticking is an issue. I still hope to be able to make a better dough, but the sourdough effect might be causing problems there too.

I think Sauzer uses natural yeast and higher hydration.

Higher hydration is sort of a sidetrack here. My main goal was looking into higher fermented doughs. Maybe I will try some with yeast instead to see what happens.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: hotsawce on September 10, 2019, 11:27:13 AM
Re: thin spots: I've seen this professionally in a number of instances.

most likely, the bottom of the ball is not sealed properly. That's almost always the largest culprit.

If you're getting thin weak spots all over the dough skin - almost like you can see the gluten starting to tear, I'm guessing it's an issue with your starter or it's approaching over fermentation....but the color of your pies don't seem to indicate that.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: DoouBall on September 10, 2019, 12:04:49 PM
Yup, that's why I prefer to close dough balls without flour. I find that flour interferes with the seams on the bottom of the ball fully sealing themselves - the flour almost forms many little barriers which prevent a perfect seal.

This hypothesis was confirmed by Chad Robertson in this video when he talks about shaping the final balls for his bread. It's really important to him that the seams are fully sealed. By the way, if you're into bread, this is a very cool video to watch by the owner of the famous Tartine bakery. It's amazing how effortlessly he handles 80%+ hydrated dough.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4dyWZZVeWI&t=915s

It's easy to test if the balls are fully sealed or not - 1)use no flour when forming so that internal seams close themselves 2)after forming the dough balls, look on the bottom and the top of the dough ball. there should be no visible lines or openings anywhere. Often when I do an imperfect job, when I turn the ball upside down, I can immediately tell it's not sealed. Then I pinch the seam closed and that fixes it.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on September 10, 2019, 02:14:43 PM
Getting a good seal is usually not a problem when I ball the dough before it's fermented too far. The last balls I deliberately fermented farther and they were pretty uneven when I balled, and I was not getting a nice seal or even-looking ball. I couldn't try more either since the balls tighten up pretty quickly. It wasn't just the bottom either, the entire ball was dimply.

I'm thinking that the sourdough and level of fermentation is a culprit regarding the thin spots on the skins. I had more of these problems some time ago when I frequently let the balls ferment more. It probably returned now since I let the balls ferment more.

The idea for fermenting more came from Yael and pizzadaheim, but as Doou pointed out, they used commercial yeast, which isn't as hard on the dough as sourdough and can probably ferment farther without intorducing problems.

There may be a way to ferment more with SD and still get away with it, but I haven't found it yet. What I do know is that the last pizza was softer and more tender, likely because of more fermentation.

I was looking for a similar result from leaving them in balls for longer, but that didn't seem to have too much effect. Neither did using RT-warm balls.

At this point it seems like I have to choose between flavor and tenderness, where SD wins the first category and commercial yeast the last. If I want to ferment the dough far and still get a skin that is cooperating, I'll need to use commercial yeast. It sounds like it makes sense that the fermentation level is an important factor contributing to the level of softness in the crumb.

I think I'm looking for much the same that Arne has been trying to find after his visit to Sorbillo, and most of his experiments hasn't given a clear results. I'm glad to finally have a positive result, even if it turned out to be caused by something that also bring problems with it.

I'm very much into bread, Doou. That's where my sourdough adventure started four years ago. With a few exceptions I make all the bread we eat at home, all with sourdough. After getting into it I can't go back to bread with commercial yeast. It taste too hollow and boring. There is certainly a lot of experience in the people that handle 80% doughs like nothing. Possibly some help from the flour, but most from the hands doing the work.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on June 22, 2021, 06:53:25 AM
How time flies. I decided to cut back on forums two years ago to prioritize other things in life. Things are more relaxed now, forums slowly crept back and I already frequent some baking related sites, so I wanted to get back in here as well.

Iíve been making my Neapolitan with SD pretty consistently, but not been too happy with the results lately. Dough behaves a bit weird, final product isnít as great anymore and thereís a gum line I donít approve of. I have suspected my starter being slightly off for some time so I just made a new one. Iíve made a few loaves with it and it works very well. Back when I started with NP SD I made 48h doughs, then focused more on 24h and when I attempted 48h it didnít turn out too well. I want to give it a new go and see what the new starter can do, both with 24h and 48h. I wondered today if the gluten in the 24h doughs didnít get enough time to develop since I use the same method as I did for 48h, with very little dough handling. I may want to give it some mixing or kneading for 24h doughs.

I also plan to try Maurizioís sourdough pizza al Taglio (https://www.theperfectloaf.com/sourdough-pizza-al-taglio) over at theperfectloaf.com. I have had a couple attempts, but not at all happy with them. Dense, hard crust, gum line. Hopefully the new starter may alleviate some of the issues.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Icelandr on June 22, 2021, 11:07:57 AM
Welcome back, I look forward to your posts
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: DoouBall on June 22, 2021, 11:17:17 AM
How time flies. I decided to cut back on forums two years ago to prioritize other things in life. Things are more relaxed now, forums slowly crept back and I already frequent some baking related sites, so I wanted to get back in here as well.

Iíve been making my Neapolitan with SD pretty consistently, but not been too happy with the results lately. Dough behaves a bit weird, final product isnít as great anymore and thereís a gum line I donít approve of. I have suspected my starter being slightly off for some time so I just made a new one. Iíve made a few loaves with it and it works very well. Back when I started with NP SD I made 48h doughs, then focused more on 24h and when I attempted 48h it didnít turn out too well. I want to give it a new go and see what the new starter can do, both with 24h and 48h. I wondered today if the gluten in the 24h doughs didnít get enough time to develop since I use the same method as I did for 48h, with very little dough handling. I may want to give it some mixing or kneading for 24h doughs.

I also plan to try Maurizioís sourdough pizza al Taglio (https://www.theperfectloaf.com/sourdough-pizza-al-taglio) over at theperfectloaf.com. I have had a couple attempts, but not at all happy with them. Dense, hard crust, gum line. Hopefully the new starter may alleviate some of the issues.

Welcome back. I took a break for a while too - feels good to be back. I think you're on to something regarding the 48h vs 24h doughs. In my experience, the 48h doughs need very little kneading.

For the pizza al Taglio, I recommend using fresh/dry yeast instead of sourdough. I've done it many times both ways and using fresh/dry has produced a much lighter and fluffier texture, but your mileage may vary. If you look closely at the pictures of Maurizio's pizza al taglio, you'll notice some huge bubbles and lots of tiny bubbles. Areas where there are lots of tiny bubbles are going to be very dense and bready. In an ideal pizza al taglio, you will see very few tiny bubbles but mostly a collection of medium and large bubbles only - a clear sign that the pizza will be very light.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on June 22, 2021, 02:35:56 PM
Icelandr: Thank you!

Welcome back. I took a break for a while too - feels good to be back. I think you're on to something regarding the 48h vs 24h doughs. In my experience, the 48h doughs need very little kneading.

For the pizza al Taglio, I recommend using fresh/dry yeast instead of sourdough. I've done it many times both ways and using fresh/dry has produced a much lighter and fluffier texture, but your mileage may vary. If you look closely at the pictures of Maurizio's pizza al taglio, you'll notice some huge bubbles and lots of tiny bubbles. Areas where there are lots of tiny bubbles are going to be very dense and bready. In an ideal pizza al taglio, you will see very few tiny bubbles but mostly a collection of medium and large bubbles only - a clear sign that the pizza will be very light.
Thanks for the tips. I have not had very good success using SD for pan style pizzas through the years. As you say, they end up denser and harder than ones with yeast, where they fluff up very nice. Same experience with NP too I suppose. The IDY pies are softer with a larger cornicione, but also more hollow in taste. We usually use IDY for pan style pizza, and Iíll try it out for al taglio too. I might give SD a go there as well. Iíve seen many photos of SD focaccia, which looks quite nice. Al taglio looks somewhat in the same vein.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on June 23, 2021, 10:41:54 AM
For the pizza al Taglio, I recommend using fresh/dry yeast instead of sourdough. I've done it many times both ways and using fresh/dry has produced a much lighter and fluffier texture, but your mileage may vary. If you look closely at the pictures of Maurizio's pizza al taglio, you'll notice some huge bubbles and lots of tiny bubbles. Areas where there are lots of tiny bubbles are going to be very dense and bready. In an ideal pizza al taglio, you will see very few tiny bubbles but mostly a collection of medium and large bubbles only - a clear sign that the pizza will be very light.
Got a suggestion for recipe for the al taglio btw?
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: DoouBall on June 23, 2021, 02:50:57 PM
Got a suggestion for recipe for the al taglio btw?

Sure. What kind of mixer are you using? Or did you want to mix by hand?
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on June 23, 2021, 03:01:48 PM
Sure. What kind of mixer are you using? Or did you want to mix by hand?
I got a Bear Varimixer Teddy (https://varimixer.com/produkt/teddy) (Danish) with a paddle and spiral hook. It is small professional grade mixer with plenty of power. We usually use it on our pan style pies with 420g flour IIRC.

Primarily one with IDY or CY. Thanks.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: DoouBall on June 23, 2021, 05:47:04 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBIlvHsPREw&ab_channel=MoMagnass-TutorialPizzafattaincasa

I haven't tried this recipe yet because I mostly mix in a spiral mixer, but this guy is very good at making amazing doughs using planetary hook.

What I do now is something like this:

1000g flour w300 (tipo 0 or tipo 1)
750-800g water.
20g salt
3-4g IDY or 7g CY

Mix until windowpane and put on counter, covering with oiled plastic wrap. After 20 minutes, give it some folds. 2h RT bulk, 22-24h CT bulk, 4-6h RT ball, spread into pan and bake at 300C with only tomato sauce or evoo for 10 minutes on floor of oven (no stone), rotating halfway through. Remove from oven, add any final toppings such as mozz or prosciutto, salami, etc, and finish on a high rack for a few more minutes until cheese is melted and toppings are warmed through.

One of the biggest keys I've discovered for pizza in teglia is that you need to 2-3x the bulk before forming loaves. This helps a lot to develop those giant open bubbles in the final pizza.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on June 24, 2021, 02:56:26 AM
Thanks!

Appreciate the details of baking method. Maurizio's recipe used a stone, which I got, and a Lloyd pan, which I don't have. I only got the pans that came with the oven, and they can't be put on top of a stone since they just start warping.

I just now realized why a planetary mixer is called planetary. Learn something new every day. :)

One of the biggest keys I've discovered for pizza in teglia is that you need to 2-3x the bulk before forming loaves. This helps a lot to develop those giant open bubbles in the final pizza.
Do you get 2-3x with only 2h in RT, 24h in CT and such small amounts of yeast?
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: DoouBall on June 24, 2021, 11:39:13 PM
Thanks!

Appreciate the details of baking method. Maurizio's recipe used a stone, which I got, and a Lloyd pan, which I don't have. I only got the pans that came with the oven, and they can't be put on top of a stone since they just start warping.

I just now realized why a planetary mixer is called planetary. Learn something new every day. :)
Do you get 2-3x with only 2h in RT, 24h in CT and such small amounts of yeast?

For pizza in teglia, the best from my understanding is an iron pan. Something like this:

https://www.palepizza.com/en-us/blue-iron-rectangular-pizza-pan-cm.-30-x-40-x-3h-straight-edge-with-diagonal-to-x-anteflexion/

A 30x40 pan makes excellent pizza in teglia using 600-650g dough balls.

Yes, 7g fresh yeast per 1000g flour is plenty to create doubling in the fridge after 2h rest at room temperature and 24h in the fridge. Worst case, if it doesn't double by then, just remove from the fridge and allow to double before making your pizza in teglia balls.

For your teglia dough, you will want to use 1000g or more flour and make sure your dough hits around 24C. It will start fermenting quite a bit in those two hours and then because the dough is bulky, it will take a long time to cool down in the fridge. It's much slower to cool down than making 250-280g Neapolitan dough balls and putting those in the fridge - those cool down quickly. If you want to use less flour, just give it more time at room temp - time isn't important. What's important is that the bulk at least doubles. This made all the difference for me with pizza in teglia and focaccia.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on June 28, 2021, 11:47:17 AM
Three 24h IDY pies today. As I always say when making IDY, I remain unimpressed. When used to SD in my bread every day and in my pizza for years, IDY doesnít do it. They were good, but left a lot to be desired.

62% HR, 0.15% IDY, ice water, RT at 15C.

Used a mixer this time. It was perhaps kneaded too much. 14 minutes, including the early slow stages where I gradually add the flour.

Two margheritas and one pizza rosa, last one inspired by schold. I have made one with pistachio not too long ago, but not exactly pizza rosa. Forgot the oil and didnít have rosemary, but it was very good. Fior di latte, parmeggiano and red onion. Pistachio post bake. The nuts were lightly roasted by putting them in a pan and shoving it in the oven a few seconds, then mashing them a little with a mortar. Pie handling was a challenge since there was no sauce for the cheese to stick to, and the dough was quite slack, but I managed. I believe the original rosa donít have fior di latte, but maybe Iíll try a little white sauce next time instead. ęLess is moreĽ, but it is difficult to restrain oneself when it comes to parmeggiano. I will also try adding the onion post bake. It loses some zing in the oven, and I like the slightly crunchy texture as fresh. A version with pine kernels would probably be good too. My GF said this became one of her favorites.

I estimated the balls to having risen around 1.6-1.7x. They couldíve gone a bit longer. Also removed them from the fridge two hours before opening since they looked to be going a little slow. 16 hours bulk, 8 hours in balls. Donít think I couldíve left them longer in balls, especially if they were a bit more fermented. 254g balls and 28 cm/11 in baked size.

I donít know if I have mentioned a trick I came up with some time ago to dry out the balls a little. Since they sit on wood, but inside a plastic box they get a sticky surface. I used to uncover them 20 minutes before, but found out that I can use the exhaust from the oven instead. It has a fan that cools the chassis, and the right side where the air is pushed out has a perfect little flow of air that I hold the ball in front of to get rid of the stickiness.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: DoouBall on June 28, 2021, 03:38:15 PM
These look great though, even if you were not happy with the flavor.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on July 01, 2021, 04:37:08 AM
Breakfast margherita today. Testing the new starter. It would have been perfect around 2AM, so it sat in the fridge four hours then back in 15C overnight. Surprisingly strong after being in ball 27 hours, which was interesting. Tasted overfermented, but it was good. Need more starter for a 24H dough. It wasnít as bubbly as I would have expected, but anything about this dough can be at least partially attributed to the time in jail. Refridgeratos kill.

0 h - 17:00 - Mix and S&F the next two hours every 30 minutes. Into cooler at 15C.
15 h - 08:00 - Balled. Saw at this point that it didnít have as much activity as Iíd like.
26 h - 19:00 - Not ready. Maybe 1.3-1.4x. Put it in the fridge.
30 h - 23:00 - Back into cooler.
40 h - 09:00 - Bake.

Strianese tomatoes, quite good. Making the sauce 1-2 hours before using makes a difference.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 02, 2021, 03:32:53 AM
Nice looking pie!
Same recipe as previous one? What kind of flour?
You say "new starter", I'm curious: Made from scratch, or did you purchase it?
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on July 02, 2021, 07:02:34 AM
Nice looking pie! though
Same recipe as previous one? What kind of flour?
You say "new starter", I'm curious: Made from scratch, or did you purchase it?
Same base recipe as my usual SD doughs, but Iíll need to tune in the SD amount. Caputo Pizzeria, 62% HR, 2.5% salt, 15C water. Mixed by hand and some S&F/kneading at 30 minute intervals the next couple of hours. I think Iíll stick to hand mixing for now.

I havenít been too happy with my starter recently. It works quite well in bread, but thereís been something off in the pizzas. I believe it has perhaps been too acidic since it seemed to break down the dough more than I expected at different levels of fermentation. I also got a gum line, even on other kinds of pizzas, that I didnít recall having before. I made a new with all rye a few weeks ago and now use that exclusively. I could make a levain with a different flour, but so far Iíve just used the rye starter directly. Only made that one so far, so I canít say too much on the differences yet, but that test seemed to indicate that it behaved differently. I'll start to use the pluviometer again to make it easier to tune in.

I got one dough in the cooler now, which is another test with a different flour. Inspired by others in here using more easily accessible flour in their NP doughs, I have made one with Regal VŚrhvete, which I used to feed my old starter and I often use in bread. The ingredients list says it only has wheat and ascorbic acid. The main goal of trying different flours is to achieve a softer crust, or just a better result altogether. Caputo is more expensive, bunt in the total cost for a NP pizza, it's not that much. Still, if I can use a more easily available flour that also cost less, it's worth a shot. I may also try some of the flours you experiment with. I have used a Petra flour before, and IIRC it was pretty good. I think it was more expensive than Caputo though.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Arne_Jervell on July 02, 2021, 09:19:58 AM
Sounds fun. Looking forward to hearing about your flour pursuits!
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on July 03, 2021, 08:10:05 AM
Welcome back Heine!

I was wondering what happened to you, but happy to hear that everything is ok.

I'm also very absent from the forum, and keep on trying to catch up with the backlog and maybe even post some.  Sometimes it's a struggle, there are a lot of posts on this forum! :D
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on July 03, 2021, 11:57:19 AM
I should have posted my intention for a hiatus, but didnít think of it and it was kinda spontaneous. Getting a daughter two years ago was mainly what prompted the pause to focus on family and everything else. These days I have gotten back into the pizza groove and look forward to experiments. Things are of course busier now than before, but of all the forums Iíve been frequenting. PM is one I want to prioritize.

I havenít read all posts in your topic in detail yet, but seen some interesting things that Iíll have to try out. Particularly oven management and bottom heat. Very useful having other members using the same oven.

Made a dough today with my typical recipe, but upped SD to 4% to try making it fit for a 24 h dough. Itís 30į C today, so things may be moving faster than usual, but I think it should be fine for use anytime between breakfast and evening tomorrow.

I also tried something new with my spy. Will post some photos after baking.

The dough with my usual bread flour was fine, but nothing special that attempt. It seemed very nicely fermented  and behaved perfectly. Compared to Caputo I think it may have been slower to ferment. I took it out to 27į C RT well before baking to get it there. The result had more of a gummy texture than Caputo. Softness and browning was pretty similar.

I made a Rosa-like with what I had available. Creme fraiche sauce, Jarlsberg (gouda like), some leftover mozzarella and a little parmiggiano, then pistachio and red onion post bake. I didnít bother pulling out the mandolin, so they were too thick. I liked the post bake onions, but GF preferred pre bake. Perhaps a combination next time. Thinner ones would probably work better post bake too. If they are really thin, the few seconds from adding to eating will soften then up a bit and reduce the sting.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on July 04, 2021, 04:06:38 PM
62% HR, 4% SD, 29 h in 15 C. Need a little more SD for 24 hours, but 29 is fine. It's actually better since I usually feed my starter around 10-11 AM and PM. Mixed at 11 AM and baked 4 PM next day.

I have wanted to do this with the spy for some time, and my recently purchased Weck jars I use for my starter and bread levain was a perfect match. I was tired of having to get the spy into the pluviometer, getting the air out, making it fit in my small wine cooler, throwing away the spy and cleaning the pluviometer. Not to mention I've already broken two pluviometers and this one also has a crack.

This time I used a 160 ml glass Weck jar instead. It's easy to work with, takes up less space, I can cook the dough and it is easier to clean. The spy is 62 ml, so I put on a rubber band to indicate 2x rise, or 124 ml. It's not linear as the pluviometer, and doesn't have indication lines, but it tells me how far I am from baking. The jar has some text and symbols that I suppose I can use to read how much it has risen by placing it on a scale and add water until 1.25, 1.5, 1.75 and 2x increase in volume and making some notes.

The ball opened well, behaved nicely and the pizza was good. I could add a sprinkle of salt on top. Used the mandolin today and the thin slices of onion gives a nice pop to the taste. I added half pre bake and half post bake.

I got some work to do on dough and oven management. I still get a gum line, at least on some areas, that I need to figure out.

I'm not entirely happy with the baking process. There is sometimes a feeling of it wanting a bit more time in the oven, but both top and bottom is already pretty far along. I changed the method a little today by launching earlier to get a less burnt bottom. That I achieved, but the top got less heat, which isn't a good thing. Still got work to do to find the balance between it all.

Jack (amolapizza) had some ideas that I'll try, fi. using lower HR, and I had one myself about trying to use more ambient heat than radiant heat for baking to ensure the entire pie is evenly cooked, not just the rim and bottom. It could lead to longer bake time, but possibly with a better baked pizza and better result.

That may also be an application where a thermostat bypass could have an effect. Stone temp is still something to consider though. I have thought about making a steel place with some feet that I could insert during warming up to avoid the upper element heating up the stone too much. I don't know how effective such a shield would be, but maybe it could bring the lower heat element back into play and use that more to heat up the stone.

I also baked the spy as a little treat to the chef. That's one reason I used the glass jar. I don't like throwing away food, and that dough has the same fermentation as the main dough, so it feels wrong throwing it away. When my starter amount is dialled in I normally don't use a spy either, but very useful for experimentation. It wasn't turned during baking, but even such a small one sitting in the middle of the stone has a noticeable difference in coloration. The front of the oven is always cooler than the back. I could maybe try launching it further in, but that brings the back edge into play and I really don't want anything thrown up against the back wall or slipping past the edge of the stone.

I will try to get one, maybe two more pizzas in next week, but on Thursday I leave for work and with vacation after that I won't be back home until middle of August, and that's just for a few days. I hope to make something in August, but there won't be much until early September actually. Quite a long time now that I think of it. I'll probably make some pizza during the vacation, but that's not at home, so no Neapolitan. I'll spend some time researching a few things instead. Oven management, gum line, dough handling etc.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on July 07, 2021, 03:15:20 PM
Last pizza in my P134H for some time. Maybe Iíll be able to squeeze in a batch in two weeks, but probably not SD. This one experienced a bit of everything. Mixer, hand kneading, rests, S&F, CF. I tried one with 58% HR to see if that could make a more evenly cooked pie than 62%. Not the best dough to judge by for many reasons, but it did feel better cooked. It went slower than my last 29 h dough, despite having 0.5% more starter, but maybe the HR had a play in that. It would be ready too late so I put it in the fridge when it was around 1.5x-ish. Let it warm up five hours before baking today. That meant way too much time on wood and it had a quite hard crust on the bottom and up the sides.

Another rosa and it was still good pizza. I had some thoughts while preparing it that maybe fermenting on wood could have a small negative effect compared to plastic. That it dried it out and changed some characteristics. Most pizzerias seems to let the balls sit on plastic. The upside is less need for bench flour, but if the Naples places bathe them in flour before cooking and still make fantastic pizza, mybe itís not such a bad thing. Iíll try some more fermenting on plastic later. This ball spent way too long on wood obviously and normally itís just a little dry, perhaps still a bit moist. Especially now that I havenít tunes things in, I should stick to plastic.

Some thoughts on future plans.

Lievito madre/mother yeast

I have read a bit about this style of wild yeast with lower HR and I want to try it out. Itís a wild yeast starter like sourdough, but with less acidity, which can produce less sour results. Some even find it to be a little sweet and it seems to be favored in Italy over a wetter sourdough, particularly for sweet pastry. Iím mostly interested in how it would work for pizza, but it also sounds like a good match for cinnamon rolls. There seems to be more rigamarole with creating and maybe maintain it, but I havenít delved far enough into the details yet. A potential upside is longer fermentation without the dough becoming too degraded.

The oven

I just said I didnít have plans for mods, but I want to take a look at some less intrusive ones. I have been inspired yet again by gsansí topic. I have already modified the thermostat to get more heat out, and I will look into the following:

* Adding a steel frame to raise the stone closer to the heat element. I took some measurements and can maybe make something at work. Doesnít seem to be much to it. I know Palepizza sell them, but Iíd rather avoid the cost.

* Adding a steel shield to the door to make it reflect heat better and remove the need to turn the pies. I donít know how this would impact the bake. Those I have read about who have installed a shield has mostly been people with an older version of the oven with a different door, but I would like to find out if stainless steel would reflect better than glass. I might find answers to this on the Italian or French forum, but if anyone here got some input, shout out. As I think about this I keep wondering if itís actually hottest in the back or front. On the small extra pie I made today, which was never turned, one side furthest back in the oven had less color. I need to take a better look at the element placement.

* Hook up a bypass switch for the upper element to control the heat better.

* Add an extra thermal probe hooked up to an external, digital temperature measurement tool for better feedback on the temperatures.

Other stuff

* Study the oven a bit more and see if I could gain something by making smaller pies. Also find best place to bake.

* Fix the out of position upper element. It doesnít sit quite as it should in the bracket and has either always been a bit lower on one part in the back or deformed under heat. Maybe a small detail, but still.

* Still got that gum line. With a new starter and not that long fermentation time Iím wondering if itís a result of too thin skins. Canít quite understand that either since I got more mass for a 28 cm/11 in pie than most I across (254 g).  I could maybe be leaving too much dough in the rim. I can compare with some IDY pies made the same way. That would at least eliminate the sourdough.

* Still not sure where my doughs are at relative to other hand mixers, Naples doughs or spiral mixers. As a hand mixed dough I donít think itís that far off being fine, but every part that can be improved on should be investigated.

Happy summer.  :chef:
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on September 18, 2021, 08:11:35 AM
Finally some neapolitan again. IDY this time.

The fermentation was slow, so I moved them to RT after 15 hours and back into the cooler an hour before bake. Total fermentation 23 hours. I forgot to activate the IDY, which could be a contributing factor. Iíll do that next time and see what happens.

It went quite well and I reached around 2x rise. Some of the better IDY pies Iíve made and Iíll try some more with IDY. One motivation is to lower the acidity in the pies, particularly ones with tomato sauce. Hereís also one from some other day with chantarelles that were pre-browned in some butter. Very tasty!

These felt more evenly baked and with less gummy parts/gum line than my usual SD pies.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Arne_Jervell on September 18, 2021, 10:23:20 AM
Nice to see you posting again! Really nice colors I think especially the cornicione on the margherita.

BTW: the acidity level of an SD-dough depends on many things but certainly on the culture. If you prefer low acidity SD dough, and if you live in the Oslo area, give me a PM and we can arrange for you to have some of my Salvatore.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on September 18, 2021, 11:49:50 AM
Absolutely depends on the culture, and I think mine is on the more acidic side. I currently got a rye starter that lives in RT. I have been thinking about going stiffer, maybe to a lievito madre, which supposedly reduce acidity. Some even say stiffer starters have a bit more power.

I love a lot about SD, but I would like reducing the acidity.

I get better coloration with IDY than SD for some reason.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: amolapizza on September 18, 2021, 12:26:02 PM
FWIW, a stiff sourdough starter is quite a lot more work than the normal liquid one..
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on September 18, 2021, 01:14:12 PM
FWIW, a stiff sourdough starter is quite a lot more work than the normal liquid one..
It can be at least, but there are different ways to maintain a stiff starter and I donít think all are as much work as what some do with LM, where thereís the water method or wrapping. Many maintain it like a liquid starter by discarding and feeding.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on September 26, 2021, 10:48:14 AM
Another round of IDY. Same amount as last time, but much more avtivity this time. No need to take them out to RT and they were around 2x after 24 hours at 15C. I activated the IDY in 38C water before mixing everything this time, which could explain part of the difference. I also used IDY from a fresh pack, while the previous was an opened one from the fridge (rolled together with a rubber band around).

I balled at 15/24 hours, which worked fine. The dough had risen some, which made the task a bit more challenging with the seam, but on wood the bottom always comes out very even when itís time to bake. I found the bottoms a bit too dry perhaps. I have thought about finding some other fermentation canister where they get more sidewall support and can be extracted with a pizza dough tool.

I donít care about being careful with the rim these days. It does get more dough than the middle, but less than before. I have also reduced the TF from 0.080 to 0.075, balls from 254g to 235g. Also happy with this change.

All in all pretty happy with the results.

62% HR, 0.18% IDY, 0.075 TF.
Title: Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
Post by: Heikjo on January 22, 2022, 05:33:16 PM
Had some interesting results on Friday.

Dough was very typical (62% HR, Caputo pizzeria), but with about 20% more yeast (IDY) to compensate for making the dough later than usual. I just upped it from 0.18% to 0.22% without considering that itís a pretty big change.

At balling, it had fermented a lot. Iíd probably say at least 2x increase. This made the balling a bit more difficult, but not too bad. I was more concerned about having 7 (out of 20) hours left before baking.

This concern didnít pan out and they were quite alright at opening. Pretty airy, but very nice characteristics with some elasticity, but not needing much work to open.

After bake, I thought they felt softer and less chewy than before. I had a thought about slightly better cooked too, but didnít dissect anything. It wasnít all to surprising, as it fits my idea that a softer dough at opening and/or more fermented can lead to a softer result. I want to do more testing on rate of fermentation and time of balling.

After feeling the pies lacked something for some time, I thought these were very nice. The white topping was a result of cleaning out various packs of ham in the fridge.

On the last pie I tried not turning it. It wasnít too bad, still a bit uneven and could have stayed in there a few seconds longer.

I tried launching earlier during the on-cycle of the upper element since Iíve been getting bottoms Jackís wife would not approve of. When measuring the temperature right before the upper element kicked in, I got 460-470C, which is where many want their stone when launching. I have let the upper element heat it up 3-4 minutes before launching. The old way was pretty much a copy of Jackís method, and maybe someone else with the same oven. But I realize that we donít have identical ovens, so I needed to do some adjusting. The pies baked a little bit slower perhaps, but nothing to complain about. The bottoms turned out much better this time. I probably launched around two minutes after the upper element turned on and stone was around 470-480 where I measured.

My starter is very lively nowadays, so I should get around to make some SD pies soon.