Pizza Making Forum

Reference, Questions and Help => Dough Clinic => Topic started by: splangerdanger on September 25, 2021, 01:51:14 PM

Title: Over-kneaded or under-kneaded?
Post by: splangerdanger on September 25, 2021, 01:51:14 PM
Hey all!

I've been making small batches of pizza dough at home with some success over the past two years and decided to scale up my dough process for my first pizza pop-up at a local venue. At home, I mix by hand because it's easier for me to tell when the dough is properly kneaded. However, for the pop-up, I had to mix nearly 50 pounds of dough, so I opted to use a friend's Hobart commercial mixer. Scaling the recipe up brought on a handful of new challenges that I wasn't entirely prepared for, with the commercial mixer being the largest.

I followed my standard process of mixing the flour, water, and sourdough starter until incorporated and let it rest for 30 mins. Then I added salt and olive oil and again mixed till incorporated. Once incorporated I mixed on the lowest setting for 7 minutes. I was afraid of over-kneading so I decided to shut it off and go into the bulk ferment. I still decided to incorporate stretch and folds for the next two hours as I normally do at home but the dough did not feel right. It was shaggy, and quick to rip.

I'm thinking the dough was over-kneaded because when I balled the dough I tried to knead a ball to see if it would come together, but it seemed to get worse. I'll leave a picture below of the crumb so you can get a look at the gluten structure. Any help would be appreciated, and any advice on scaling dough (especially naturally leavened) and commercial mixers (I used a Hobart H-600T) would be appreciated!

Thanks y'all!
Title: Re: Over-kneaded or under-kneaded?
Post by: drainaps on September 26, 2021, 12:31:33 AM
Hi there. Quick question, I guess you used a dough hook, not a paddle, to mix your dough?

Anyway, at 7 minutes total on first speed in a planetary mixer, your dough is way underdeveloped. I don't know what flour or hydration you use, but you'd typically mix for 3-4 minutes in first, then go through autolysis in the bowl, then easily work the dough for at least 10-12 minutes in second to get adequate gluten development.

It's difficult to say how the stretch and folds you performed helped structure the dough, but I'd say insufficiently.

Checking dough temperature with a digital thermometer and performing a windowpane test are also de rigueur when using a commercial mixer, especially if you're not familiar with it.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Over-kneaded or under-kneaded?
Post by: splangerdanger on September 26, 2021, 03:13:00 PM
Hi there. Quick question, I guess you used a dough hook, not a paddle, to mix your dough?

Anyway, at 7 minutes total on first speed in a planetary mixer, your dough is way underdeveloped. I don't know what flour or hydration you use, but you'd typically mix for 3-4 minutes in first, then go through autolysis in the bowl, then easily work the dough for at least 10-12 minutes in second to get adequate gluten development.

It's difficult to say how the stretch and folds you performed helped structure the dough, but I'd say insufficiently.

Checking dough temperature with a digital thermometer and performing a windowpane test are also de rigueur when using a commercial mixer, especially if you're not familiar with it.

Hope this helps.

Yo, thanks for the quick response!

Yupp, definitely used a dough hook to mix the dough. I used 90% 00 flour and 10% Whole Wheat flour. The final hydration percentage was 63% and I also added 3% olive oil–which I know doesn't affect hydration, but still thought it was worth a mention since it is a liquid!

Yeah, the first mix was right around 3-4 mins to get the flour hydrated. Then we covered the bowl and let the dough rest for 30 mins before the second mix. I appreciate the advice on timing for the second mix! Would you suggest bumping the speed up for this, or is it best practice to leave the mixer on the lowest speed here? Also, if the windowpane test is all good after this initial mix, are the stretch and folds even necessary?

Can't thank you enough for the response. This is a HUGE help!
Title: Re: Over-kneaded or under-kneaded?
Post by: drainaps on September 26, 2021, 04:26:49 PM
No worries. In a purely commercial environment, you develop gluten in the mixer, no stretch and folds are used.

Stand (planetary) mixers are quite aggressive to dough, as they don't develop gluten as efficiently as spiral or oblique mixers. The longer machine time needed usually translates into higher dough temperatures, less flavor as dough is more oxydized, and less open crumbs.  They are therefore sparingly used in a quality oriented commercial setup.

However, in the circumstances you describe, I'd just use the mixer to full gluten development and move forward until you're comfortable with the whole process. Do make sure you use cold water to end up with an adequate dough temperature.

Yes, you'll need to step up to second speed to develop gluten within a reasonable time frame. I'm not familiar with the Hobart (or your flour) but I'd say something around  3-5 minutes in first and 8-12 minutes in second should get you there. Time on second should be shorter if you autolyse. Do check your temperatures and do use cold water. If room temperature is around 75 F, use cold water at around 37-40 F. Shoot at a dough temperature around 75-78 F at the end of the process.

One more thing, adding oil towards the END of the whole process will help develop gluten faster while keeping dough temperature in check. Oil interferes with gluten creation, by displacing water and coating flour particles. Water is needed (big shortcut here) to help create the chemical bonds between the 2 different flour proteins that create the gluten strands.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: Over-kneaded or under-kneaded?
Post by: QwertyJuan on September 26, 2021, 11:00:53 PM
No worries. In a purely commercial environment, you develop gluten in the mixer, no stretch and folds are used.

Stand (planetary) mixers are quite aggressive to dough, as they don't develop gluten as efficiently as spiral or oblique mixers. The longer machine time needed usually translates into higher dough temperatures, less flavor as dough is more oxydized, and less open crumbs.  They are therefore sparingly used in a quality oriented commercial setup.

However, in the circumstances you describe, I'd just use the mixer to full gluten development and move forward until you're comfortable with the whole process. Do make sure you use cold water to end up with an adequate dough temperature.

Yes, you'll need to step up to second speed to develop gluten within a reasonable time frame. I'm not familiar with the Hobart (or your flour) but I'd say something around  3-5 minutes in first and 8-12 minutes in second should get you there. Time on second should be shorter if you autolyse. Do check your temperatures and do use cold water. If room temperature is around 75 F, use cold water at around 37-40 F. Shoot at a dough temperature around 75-78 F at the end of the process.

One more thing, adding oil towards the END of the whole process will help develop gluten faster while keeping dough temperature in check. Oil interferes with gluten creation, by displacing water and coating flour particles. Water is needed (big shortcut here) to help create the chemical bonds between the 2 different flour proteins that create the gluten strands.

Hope this helps.

Agreed about the dough, but in my experience, with a planetary mixer, if you wait too long to add the oil, the dough will flop around like a beached salmon with the oil just lubricating the bowl. You can't wait too, too long. Spiral mixer?? No issues.

FWIW, the BEST upgrade I've ever made to my pizza is my spiral mixer. I have Tom Lehmann to thank for that.
Title: Re: Over-kneaded or under-kneaded?
Post by: RHawthorne on September 26, 2021, 11:21:15 PM
he final hydration percentage was 63% and I also added 3% olive oil–which I know doesn't affect hydration, but still thought it was worth a mention since it is a liquid!


Oil actually does have an indirect effect on hydration. It attenuates the rate at which the water in your dough is released by the heat in the oven. And 3% is a fairly significant amount to use, in my opinion anyway. If you're noticing a significant change in your finished crust, you should consider any and all changes that you've made to your recipe and process, and that definitely would include the addition of oil. It can be a real game changer, either good or bad. Others here have already noted the effect it can have on gluten development depending on when you incorporate it in your dough, but bear in mind that yeast is not the only bacteria that's catalyzing the gluten development in your dough when you're using a sourdough culture. I don't know for sure how oil affects that sort of bacteria, but that's just it- sourdough is always a little bit unpredictable when you're exposing it to any sort of new ingredient or condition. And while I'm hardly an expert on sourdough baking in general, I think it's fairly uncommon for anyone to incorporate much, if any, oil in any kind of dough made using sourdough culture. I could be wrong on that point, but I don't think so.  I'm not saying for sure that the oil had a huge effect, but I think it very well could have.
Title: Re: Over-kneaded or under-kneaded?
Post by: drainaps on September 26, 2021, 11:36:44 PM
Agreed about the dough, but in my experience, with a planetary mixer, if you wait too long to add the oil, the dough will flop around like a beached salmon with the oil just lubricating the bowl. You can't wait too, too long. Spiral mixer?? No issues.

FWIW, the BEST upgrade I've ever made to my pizza is my spiral mixer. I have Tom Lehmann to thank for that.

Fully agreed that spirals are way better than planetary at developing dough, and oil will be a non-issue. If a planetary is all you have, you'll have to be careful with adding oil at the later stages if kneading, as it can be messy if you're not used to it. If uncomfortable, just add oil with the hydration water from the beginning.

Also agreed with another poster on the fact that oil should be counted as "hydration" . While it doesn't hydrate in a proper sense, it does influence dough rheology (the way the dough behaves mechanically).

To the original poster, keep us updated and we'll try our best to help, there's knowledge around here!
Title: Re: Over-kneaded or under-kneaded?
Post by: amolapizza on September 27, 2021, 01:21:42 AM
I'll add my 2 cents.  If you really see the dough tearing when doing slaps and fold, then stop immediately.  I'm talking about the surface tearing and getting wetter, that is a sign that you are overdoing it and will break your dough if you persist.

It's often said that pizza dough needs less gluten development than bread, and you don't need to aim for a window pane test.  The gluten will continue to develop all by itself after the initial mixing.
Title: Re: Over-kneaded or under-kneaded?
Post by: Jackitup on September 27, 2021, 02:44:46 AM
Agreed about the dough, but in my experience, with a planetary mixer, if you wait too long to add the oil, the dough will flop around like a beached salmon with the oil just lubricating the bowl. You can't wait too, too long. Spiral mixer?? No issues.

FWIW, the BEST upgrade I've ever made to my pizza is my spiral mixer. I have Tom Lehmann to thank for that.

Love the beached salmon analogy, made me spit on myself!🤣
Title: Re: Over-kneaded or under-kneaded?
Post by: HansB on September 27, 2021, 07:59:46 AM
Oil actually does have an indirect effect on hydration. It attenuates the rate at which the water in your dough is released by the heat in the oven. And 3% is a fairly significant amount to use, in my opinion anyway. If you're noticing a significant change in your finished crust, you should consider any and all changes that you've made to your recipe and process, and that definitely would include the addition of oil. It can be a real game changer, either good or bad. Others here have already noted the effect it can have on gluten development depending on when you incorporate it in your dough, but bear in mind that yeast is not the only bacteria that's catalyzing the gluten development in your dough when you're using a sourdough culture. I don't know for sure how oil affects that sort of bacteria, but that's just it- sourdough is always a little bit unpredictable when you're exposing it to any sort of new ingredient or condition. And while I'm hardly an expert on sourdough baking in general, I think it's fairly uncommon for anyone to incorporate much, if any, oil in any kind of dough made using sourdough culture. I could be wrong on that point, but I don't think so.  I'm not saying for sure that the oil had a huge effect, but I think it very well could have.

FYI, yeast is not a bacteria. Using oil along with sourdough is not at all uncommon. I have used up to 5% oil in sourdough formulas with excellent results.
Title: Re: Over-kneaded or under-kneaded?
Post by: RHawthorne on September 27, 2021, 11:48:20 AM
FYI, yeast is not a bacteria. Using oil along with sourdough is not at all uncommon. I have used up to 5% oil in sourdough formulas with excellent results.
No, I guess technically you're correct. Yeast is a single cell organism, technically a microorganism classified as a fungus (which I already knew), but not a bacteria. But there is bacteria present in sourdough- lactic acid bacteria- and that bacteria far outnumbers the yeast.
 As far as how common it is to use oil in sourdough pizza dough, you could well be right about that too (I did say that I could be wrong), but I think the common consensus is that it definitely does affect gluten development. And while 3% is not necessarily a huge amount, I think it's safe to say that any number greater than zero is going to do something. But now that I'm looking back at the original post, I'd say the gluten texture in that dough actually looks a bit dense, so I'm not sure that the fermentation is really the issue. I'm thinking maybe the issue is more in the handling.
 I'm interested in seeing how this develops, and I'm bookmarking this thread.
Title: Re: Over-kneaded or under-kneaded?
Post by: schibetta on September 27, 2021, 12:42:30 PM
I use a stand mixer to knead my dough and the kneading time is about 8 minutes. When would be the best moment to add the oil? Before I simply added it at the beginning but reading the thread I understand that it can interfere with the gluten development. Do you think I should add oil after 5 minutes of kneading ? Or else ?
Title: Re: Over-kneaded or under-kneaded?
Post by: drainaps on September 27, 2021, 01:38:18 PM
I use a stand mixer to knead my dough and the kneading time is about 8 minutes. When would be the best moment to add the oil? Before I simply added it at the beginning but reading the thread I understand that it can interfere with the gluten development. Do you think I should add oil after 5 minutes of kneading ? Or else ?

Actually there's no "best" moment to add oil. By not adding oil from the beginning, what you're trying to do is to minimize machine time by developing gluten as fast as you can.

Too much machine time has 2 unwanted effects: (1) excess temperature buildup and (2) excess dough oxydation. Some dough heating is needed, so yeasts are in their comfort zone to kick-start fermentation on a healthy note. 

Adequate dough oxydation is a must too, as it's oxydation that helps create the disulphure chemical bonds between glutenin and glyadin that are at the base of gluten development.

But (big but) too much heating and too much air incorporation /oxydation have a substantial impact on flavor.

Some say a big impact, among them Raymond Calvel, an authoritative figure in the world of (French) bread and author of a seminal work on bread doughs, "The Taste of Bread".

Temperature and  oxydation affect a group of flour flavor molecules called carotenoids, by basically wiping them off. Carotenoids  have a lot to do with "wheat flavor" and with your dough having a cream color. Very white doughs are usually highly oxydized, the product of as-fast-as-you-can gluten development, and a common practice in industrial bakeries. Interestingly enough, they're commercially attractive.

In all honesty, for a pizza dough at 3% oil, there's not going to be a huge difference in machine time between incorporating the oil at the beginning or at a later stage if you're using a spiral mixer.

It starts to make a difference if you're using a planetary, which despite Kitchenaid's marketing efforts to convince the world that their machine is great for mixing dough (it applies to all planetary mixers), it really is not. Big Kitchenaids in particular have too wide of a bowl bottom (the 7qt Heavy Duty is a pristine example) and as a consequence they're really ill-suited to mix dough efficiently :too much heating and oxydation results. I have one KA too, guilty as charged 😉.

The higher the oil or fat content of a dough (brioche dough for instance has substantial amounts of butter incorporated in the dough) the more critical it is to develop a good gluten structure that can sustain the fats through baking without collapsing during or after baking.

And the higher the fat content, the more difficult it is to mix the dough to the right gluten development  unless you add the fats once gluten is developed. And you usually add them as cold as you can to facilitate incorporation, and to a dough that is as cold as possible too.

Back to your question after my lengthy dissertation (hope it's informative though) , try to add it on the last 2 or 3 minutes of the kneading. Colder oil in a colder dough works best. In any case don't add oil at 80F to a dough at 88F, things will be difficult.

Too much talk. Hope I'm not overdoing myself. 😅
Title: Re: Over-kneaded or under-kneaded?
Post by: PizzaGarage on September 27, 2021, 02:02:33 PM
A formulation would be good to see and not sure what you mean by shut it off and allowed to bulk ferment  - are you doing a same day dough or cold fermenting, what's the process?

My 2 cents.

Start with 25 lbs flour as opposed to making a 50 lbs batch - don't know percentages here as this is no formulation to look at. Idea is to reduce the batch size to something more manageable.  Do the same process with starter in upfront, mix on low (1) for 6 minutes, this is plenty to get a good mix.  Let rest for 10 minutes as opposed to 30 (start there) in the bowl, don't know what the temp is in your friends shop. When done, on low for 1 minute SLOWLEY add the oil to the center of the batch, don't pour it in all at one and not to down the sides of the bowl, get to the center best you can.  When done, switch to medium (2) and go for another 7 minutes (ish) you need to watch it during this time, can be less, or more time, you want the smooth silky shine and can test at various stages.  Any left over oil should incorporate a few minutes into this mixing stage.   Get the right water temps so your dough is coming out at the right temp.

Ball and cold ferment.
Title: Re: Over-kneaded or under-kneaded?
Post by: HansB on September 27, 2021, 02:23:20 PM
I think it's safe to say that any number greater than zero is going to do something.

Oil in sourdough behaves exactly like it does in dough made with commercial yeast.
Title: Re: Over-kneaded or under-kneaded?
Post by: schibetta on September 27, 2021, 02:42:41 PM
Actually there's no "best" moment to add oil. By not adding oil from the beginning, what you're trying to do is to minimize machine time by developing gluten as fast as you can.

Too much machine time has 2 unwanted effects: (1) excess temperature buildup and (2) excess dough oxydation. Some dough heating is needed, so yeasts are in their comfort zone to kick-start fermentation on a healthy note. 

Adequate dough oxydation is a must too, as it's oxydation that helps create the disulphure chemical bonds between glutenin and glyadin that are at the base of gluten development.

But (big but) too much heating and too much air incorporation /oxydation have a substantial impact on flavor.

Some say a big impact, among them Raymond Calvel, an authoritative figure in the world of (French) bread and author of a seminal work on bread doughs, "The Taste of Bread".

Temperature and  oxydation affect a group of flour flavor molecules called carotenoids, by basically wiping them off. Carotenoids  have a lot to do with "wheat flavor" and with your dough having a cream color. Very white doughs are usually highly oxydized, the product of as-fast-as-you-can gluten development, and a common practice in industrial bakeries. Interestingly enough, they're commercially attractive.

In all honesty, for a pizza dough at 3% oil, there's not going to be a huge difference in machine time between incorporating the oil at the beginning or at a later stage if you're using a spiral mixer.

It starts to make a difference if you're using a planetary, which despite Kitchenaid's marketing efforts to convince the world that their machine is great for mixing dough (it applies to all planetary mixers), it really is not. Big Kitchenaids in particular have too wide of a bowl bottom (the 7qt Heavy Duty is a pristine example) and as a consequence they're really ill-suited to mix dough efficiently :too much heating and oxydation results. I have one KA too, guilty as charged .

The higher the oil or fat content of a dough (brioche dough for instance has substantial amounts of butter incorporated in the dough) the more critical it is to develop a good gluten structure that can sustain the fats through baking without collapsing during or after baking.

And the higher the fat content, the more difficult it is to mix the dough to the right gluten development  unless you add the fats once gluten is developed. And you usually add them as cold as you can to facilitate incorporation, and to a dough that is as cold as possible too.

Back to your question after my lengthy dissertation (hope it's informative though) , try to add it on the last 2 or 3 minutes of the kneading. Colder oil in a colder dough works best. In any case don't add oil at 80F to a dough at 88F, things will be difficult.

Too much talk. Hope I'm not overdoing myself.

thanks for the thorough reply, I will add oil later in the kneading process

this forum is a goldmine of information
Title: Re: Over-kneaded or under-kneaded?
Post by: Pete-zza on September 27, 2021, 03:16:56 PM
I use a stand mixer to knead my dough and the kneading time is about 8 minutes. When would be the best moment to add the oil? Before I simply added it at the beginning but reading the thread I understand that it can interfere with the gluten development. Do you think I should add oil after 5 minutes of kneading ? Or else ?
schibetta,

When I was trying to reverse engineer and clone the Papa John's basic dough, I added the oil up front. I started with over 7% oil but after learning more about their dough, I went to 5.5% oil. In all instances, I simply assumed that PJ added the oil up front in its commissaries, simply because it seemed to me to be the simplest and most direct method in an automated process. Later, I learned about the delayed oil addition method from the late Tom Lehmann.

To be honest, I did not encounter any problems adding the oil up front. And I think the photos of the various PJ clones show that decent results can be achieved using the up front addition of oil. You can see photos at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58195#msg58195

My advice is to try both methods of oil addition and see which works better for you. And that might vary from one type of pizza to another. And the results might be different in a commercial setting than in a typical home setting because of the different mixers.

Seeing that you are in France, you may be aware that PJ has at least one pizzeria there. See, for example, the article at:

https://ir.papajohns.com/news-releases/news-release-details/papa-johns-international-opens-first-restaurant-northeastern

Peter



Title: Re: Over-kneaded or under-kneaded?
Post by: splangerdanger on September 27, 2021, 04:00:55 PM
No worries. In a purely commercial environment, you develop gluten in the mixer, no stretch and folds are used.

Stand (planetary) mixers are quite aggressive to dough, as they don't develop gluten as efficiently as spiral or oblique mixers. The longer machine time needed usually translates into higher dough temperatures, less flavor as dough is more oxydized, and less open crumbs.  They are therefore sparingly used in a quality oriented commercial setup.

However, in the circumstances you describe, I'd just use the mixer to full gluten development and move forward until you're comfortable with the whole process. Do make sure you use cold water to end up with an adequate dough temperature.

Yes, you'll need to step up to second speed to develop gluten within a reasonable time frame. I'm not familiar with the Hobart (or your flour) but I'd say something around  3-5 minutes in first and 8-12 minutes in second should get you there. Time on second should be shorter if you autolyse. Do check your temperatures and do use cold water. If room temperature is around 75 F, use cold water at around 37-40 F. Shoot at a dough temperature around 75-78 F at the end of the process.

One more thing, adding oil towards the END of the whole process will help develop gluten faster while keeping dough temperature in check. Oil interferes with gluten creation, by displacing water and coating flour particles. Water is needed (big shortcut here) to help create the chemical bonds between the 2 different flour proteins that create the gluten strands.

Hope this helps.

Thanks so much! So, I think I am going to mix the four, water, and starter first in the planetary mixer on the lowest speed just until incorporated and let it rest for 30 minutes. Then I'm planning on adding the oil and salt together, mixing on the lowest speed until incorporated, and then bumping up to speed 2 until smooth and I can get a decent windowpane. I will definitely begin with cold water this time to offset the increase in temp due to friction from mixing, and will also bring a thermometer to keep track of the final dough temp. Also, think I'll kick the stretch and folds to the curb and use the first two hours of bulk ferment to work on other prep to maximize efficiency in the kitchen.

When making smaller batches at home, the 3% oil has given me zero complications in terms of gluten development, so I'm thinking adding it in here with the larger batch should be fine as well. I will say, the dough did feel a LOT better after a 48-hour cold-proof. Although still not as good as my normal home batches–the closest pic I have to a crumb photo is attached for reference.

Again, can't thank you enough for the helpful response! I will definitely post back here after my next commercial dough trial!
Title: Re: Over-kneaded or under-kneaded?
Post by: splangerdanger on September 27, 2021, 04:08:31 PM
A formulation would be good to see and not sure what you mean by shut it off and allowed to bulk ferment  - are you doing a same day dough or cold fermenting, what's the process?

My 2 cents.

Start with 25 lbs flour as opposed to making a 50 lbs batch - don't know percentages here as this is no formulation to look at. Idea is to reduce the batch size to something more manageable.  Do the same process with starter in upfront, mix on low (1) for 6 minutes, this is plenty to get a good mix.  Let rest for 10 minutes as opposed to 30 (start there) in the bowl, don't know what the temp is in your friends shop. When done, on low for 1 minute SLOWLEY add the oil to the center of the batch, don't pour it in all at one and not to down the sides of the bowl, get to the center best you can.  When done, switch to medium (2) and go for another 7 minutes (ish) you need to watch it during this time, can be less, or more time, you want the smooth silky shine and can test at various stages.  Any left over oil should incorporate a few minutes into this mixing stage.   Get the right water temps so your dough is coming out at the right temp.

Ball and cold ferment.

Thanks for the response, and great idea! I will leave my dough recipe and process below for y'all to scope out and review. Percentages are on the left, and the numbers to the right of each ingredient is weight in grams. Appreciate you giving a process as well. Now, I'm wondering if I under-kneaded the dough.. But I did try kneaded a ball after I balled up though dough, to see if it would help bring it together but it just turned to a weak, stick, and sloppy mess of a ball. Anyways, hope the info below helps you to understand the process I used!

Pizza Dough Calculator      
Dough Balls      70
Ball Weight      300
100%   Flour   12388
90%   CM Type 00   11149
10%   Whole Wheat   1239
61%   Water   7556
11%   Starter   1363
3%   Salt   372
3%   Olive Oil   372
5%   (Dough Loss)   0.05
Total Dough Weight      22050

Step 1.
Whisk flours together in mixing bowl and set aside.
Whisk Starter and water together in separate cambro. 
Add water/starter mixture to flour and mix until incorporated (3-4 mins).
Rest 30 mins (autolyse)

Step 2.
Add oil and salt to dough mixture.
Mix to incorporate.
Mix on speed 1 for 7 mins —> Bulk Ferment.

Step 3.
Bulk ferment for 3 hours.(4 sets of stretch and folds during first two hours)

Step 4.
Ball dough and proof.
Proof -1hr room temp.

Step 6.
Refrigerate 48 hours.

Step 7.
Pull dough from fridge, temper, and bake.
Title: Re: Over-kneaded or under-kneaded?
Post by: RHawthorne on September 28, 2021, 12:12:55 AM
Oil in sourdough behaves exactly like it does in dough made with commercial yeast.
I'll take your word for it. Thanks.
Title: Re: Over-kneaded or under-kneaded?
Post by: schibetta on September 29, 2021, 04:32:18 PM
schibetta,

When I was trying to reverse engineer and clone the Papa John's basic dough, I added the oil up front. I started with over 7% oil but after learning more about their dough, I went to 5.5% oil. In all instances, I simply assumed that PJ added the oil up front in its commissaries, simply because it seemed to me to be the simplest and most direct method in an automated process. Later, I learned about the delayed oil addition method from the late Tom Lehmann.

To be honest, I did not encounter any problems adding the oil up front. And I think the photos of the various PJ clones show that decent results can be achieved using the up front addition of oil. You can see photos at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58195#msg58195

My advice is to try both methods of oil addition and see which works better for you. And that might vary from one type of pizza to another. And the results might be different in a commercial setting than in a typical home setting because of the different mixers.

Seeing that you are in France, you may be aware that PJ has at least one pizzeria there. See, for example, the article at:

https://ir.papajohns.com/news-releases/news-release-details/papa-johns-international-opens-first-restaurant-northeastern

Peter

Thanks Peter, I will look at your Papa Johns Clone thread, it might be interesting. I've never tried Papa Johns.
Title: Re: Over-kneaded or under-kneaded?
Post by: Willthepizzamaker on October 01, 2021, 02:29:41 AM
I’m lazy and didn’t read well but if it was doing on Hobart plantery mixer,

I would store flour, water, salt in the walk in and keep everything very very cold. Also I would mix good 20 minutes. Keep final dough temperature no more than 23C if it’s 50lbs mass.

Also for sourdough I use high w rate flours to be safe and use very little starter only because you never know what will happen in commercial setting.

It’s not making dough that is amazing for 2 hours but good for good 6 hours. One thing that made me very hard to get over it. When I was starting to use more technique on my dough.