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Dough Clinic / Re: Over-kneaded or under-kneaded?
« Last post by schibetta on Today at 02:42:41 PM »
Actually there's no "best" moment to add oil. By not adding oil from the beginning, what you're trying to do is to minimize machine time by developing gluten as fast as you can.

Too much machine time has 2 unwanted effects: (1) excess temperature buildup and (2) excess dough oxydation. Some dough heating is needed, so yeasts are in their comfort zone to kick-start fermentation on a healthy note. 

Adequate dough oxydation is a must too, as it's oxydation that helps create the disulphure chemical bonds between glutenin and glyadin that are at the base of gluten development.

But (big but) too much heating and too much air incorporation /oxydation have a substantial impact on flavor.

Some say a big impact, among them Raymond Calvel, an authoritative figure in the world of (French) bread and author of a seminal work on bread doughs, "The Taste of Bread".

Temperature and  oxydation affect a group of flour flavor molecules called carotenoids, by basically wiping them off. Carotenoids  have a lot to do with "wheat flavor" and with your dough having a cream color. Very white doughs are usually highly oxydized, the product of as-fast-as-you-can gluten development, and a common practice in industrial bakeries. Interestingly enough, they're commercially attractive.

In all honesty, for a pizza dough at 3% oil, there's not going to be a huge difference in machine time between incorporating the oil at the beginning or at a later stage if you're using a spiral mixer.

It starts to make a difference if you're using a planetary, which despite Kitchenaid's marketing efforts to convince the world that their machine is great for mixing dough (it applies to all planetary mixers), it really is not. Big Kitchenaids in particular have too wide of a bowl bottom (the 7qt Heavy Duty is a pristine example) and as a consequence they're really ill-suited to mix dough efficiently :too much heating and oxydation results. I have one KA too, guilty as charged 😉.

The higher the oil or fat content of a dough (brioche dough for instance has substantial amounts of butter incorporated in the dough) the more critical it is to develop a good gluten structure that can sustain the fats through baking without collapsing during or after baking.

And the higher the fat content, the more difficult it is to mix the dough to the right gluten development  unless you add the fats once gluten is developed. And you usually add them as cold as you can to facilitate incorporation, and to a dough that is as cold as possible too.

Back to your question after my lengthy dissertation (hope it's informative though) , try to add it on the last 2 or 3 minutes of the kneading. Colder oil in a colder dough works best. In any case don't add oil at 80F to a dough at 88F, things will be difficult.

Too much talk. Hope I'm not overdoing myself. 😅

thanks for the thorough reply, I will add oil later in the kneading process

this forum is a knowledge goldmine
General Pizza Making / Re: Post a Pic of Your Pie - Daily Update
« Last post by norcoscia on Today at 02:41:06 PM »
- 16"
- 58% Hyd, 3% Salt, 2% Oil, 1% Sugar, 0.25% IDY.
- 72hr CF
- 500g Doughball weight
- Bianco DiNapoli / Jersey Fresh mix
- Grande Whole Milk Mozz
- Baked at 550 (Steel Temp) for 9-10 mins

Super proud of this one!!!

Perfect - great work - it has NY written all over it!!!!!!!!
Dough Clinic / Re: Over-kneaded or under-kneaded?
« Last post by HansB on Today at 02:23:20 PM »
I think it's safe to say that any number greater than zero is going to do something.

Oil in sourdough behaves exactly like it does in dough made with commercial yeast.
Neapolitan Style / Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Last post by davidholmes on Today at 02:20:25 PM »
I did try masterbiga, but it looks like they aren't ready yet as it says "refresh management still bot available with liquid sourdough starter (coming soon)"

I totally get that everyone's sourdough is different, but TXCraig's sourdough prediction model has been incredibly accurate (+/- a few hours) with his recipe. I also believe masterbiga has done similar experiments as Craig and has their own tables for time and temperature (they mention research and experiments throughout their blog).

I am not looking for precision answers, just helpful commentary from people who are making using sourdough with biga. Like 1% starter for 24 hours at 15c is working for me. I'd like to know if/how anyone is getting that to 48 or 72 hours.
General Pizza Making / Re: Post a Pic of Your Pie - Daily Update
« Last post by piesofsatan on Today at 02:11:40 PM »
- 16"
- 58% Hyd, 3% Salt, 2% Oil, 1% Sugar, 0.25% IDY.
- 72hr CF
- 500g Doughball weight
- Bianco DiNapoli / Jersey Fresh mix
- Grande Whole Milk Mozz
- Baked at 550 (Steel Temp) for 9-10 mins

Super proud of this one!!!
Prep Equipment / New custom countertop Fork mixer
« Last post by Steevo124 on Today at 02:10:27 PM »
Hi everyone,

After three agonizing months, I wanted to share some exciting news. I just received my custom Sunmix Sun Fork-10 mixer. It overcomes the shortcomings of the Santos fork mixer in that it has a motorized bowl and an extremely slow RMP. The dial says 35 RPM but Iíd estimate to be even slower than that after a quick test run. I will post videos of it when itís up and running. Itís a 10L bowl and has a timer also. Most importantly this fork mixer was long discontinued and came with a European plug. After much begging, Sunmix agreed to custom build me one (as they had parts for one more) and they custom built it with a Mitsubishi power inverter so it came from the factory with a standard 110 plug. Iíd venture to guess itís one-of-a-kind and the only one in existence with this configuration. Letís see how it makes a dough!
New York Style / Re: NYC guy makes NYC pie
« Last post by piesofsatan on Today at 02:08:33 PM »
Been a while!! Mostly because my pies were coming on par with other pies I've posted here previously and didn't feel the need to constantly update.

Last night was a really big success and I got a new little light rig to take better photos of my pizza so I thought I'd share.

- Two 16" Pies
- 58% Hyd, 3% Salt, 2% Oil, 1% Sugar, 0.25% Yeast.
- 72hr CF
- 500g Doughball weight
- Bianco DiNapoli / Jersey Fresh mix
- Grande Whole Milk Mozz
- Meatballs from a local shop on one pie, refrigerated, then sliced before baking.
- Baked at 550-ish (Steel temp) for 9-10 mins

So I don't have a light in my crappy oven, and so I used the light I bought for photos aimed at the oven and my launches were perfect for both pies. Doing that from now on. Felt blind before and always ended up with a misshaped pie.

These both tasted great, maybe a little too much cheese on both, still trying to figure out the perfect melt. My sauce could've been better too but I was overall very happy with these. Can't wait to bake again.
Dough Clinic / Re: Over-kneaded or under-kneaded?
« Last post by PizzaGarage on Today at 02:02:33 PM »
A formulation would be good to see and not sure what you mean by shut it off and allowed to bulk ferment  - are you doing a same day dough or cold fermenting, what's the process?

My 2 cents.

Start with 25 lbs flour as opposed to making a 50 lbs batch - don't know percentages here as this is no formulation to look at. Idea is to reduce the batch size to something more manageable.  Do the same process with starter in upfront, mix on low (1) for 6 minutes, this is plenty to get a good mix.  Let rest for 10 minutes as opposed to 30 (start there) in the bowl, don't know what the temp is in your friends shop. When done, on low for 1 minute SLOWLEY add the oil to the center of the batch, don't pour it in all at one and not to down the sides of the bowl, get to the center best you can.  When done, switch to medium (2) and go for another 7 minutes (ish) you need to watch it during this time, can be less, or more time, you want the smooth silky shine and can test at various stages.  Any left over oil should incorporate a few minutes into this mixing stage.   Get the right water temps so your dough is coming out at the right temp.

Ball and cold ferment.
Neapolitan Style / Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Last post by Arne_Jervell on Today at 01:52:49 PM »
You know considering your circumstances, the pizza still looks very good!

A couple of considerations wtih Petra 5063. One is that the flour has very high enzyme activity. I tried to autolyse with this flour for just one hour and the dough turned very liquiidy. Two is that the flour is designed for 8-10 hour rise at room temp or 24h rise in the fridge. See the datasheet here:


This flour just doesn't seem very forgiving in my experience. If you ferment too long, waiting for the sourdough to rise, the enzyme activity may deteriorate your dough too much before baking. If your starter is acting sluggish, you might consider adding a bit of instant yeast to the mix. Yes, it will reduce the flavor a bit but it will help you get the results you're used to from a rise and texture standpoint.

Alex, thank you for the insight. Your suggestions make total sense, and I will keep them in mind for sure.

I have been resisting the idea of "boosting" my sourdough with yeast for a long time. Call it vanity or, at the very least, stubborness on my part. But the seed has been planted and the idea has started to grow on me. It sounds like a fun little project actually.

Oh well, it will probably have to wait for 2022...  :pizza:
Neapolitan Style / Re: The Doughs of My Life
« Last post by Arne_Jervell on Today at 01:41:43 PM »
Perhaps you should have asked Salvatore . . .

You are probably right, time to face the fact that he's the boss.  :-[

Iím sure you know by now where the spy should be at various times during fermentation. Do you sometimes move them to a warmer location if things are moving slowly or stick to the schedule, delay bake and take what you get?

Well, I usually adjust the temperature in the fermentation box to compensate for deviations. But maybe I was a little stubborn this time.  :-D 

Still looking very good Arne.  Hopefully King Winter is not to close!!

Thanks Scott, I'm hoping for the same.  :chef:
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