Different Variations of NY Style

[zeus16]

Hello All!

I am new to pizza making, but eager to learn. I know some of these questions will come off as "newbish" and will likely annoy some. I am just looking to learn and am appreciative of any insight and information you can provide.

My NY Style Preference

Focusing on the crust, I like a nice thin crispy crust with a light and not too chewy bite to it. For example, I absolutely despise the crust on the typical hand-tossed pizzas at Pizza Hut, Dominoes, and Papa Johns because I find them too chew and too "bready." I don't like their thin crust pizzas because I find them too hard and tastes like a cracker. The one pizza that I do enjoy is Dominoes Brooklyn Style Pizza and usually get it with their white sauce; however, I do admit that this is too floppy and "just okay" in terms of of quick and cheap option.

Weekend Warrior BBQ Recipe



Total Flour: 100% (719g)
Caputo 00 Americana Flour: 91% (654g)
Caputo Semola Flour: 9% (65g)

Water: 54.6% (393g)
ADY: 0.7% (5g)
Salt: 2.64% (19g)
Diastatic Malt: 0.42% (3g)
Olive Oil: 1.67% (12g)

Below I will breakdown a couple ingredient and pose questions that I have on their use and effect on the final product.

Flour 

Flours milled in Italy are usually graded by a series of zeros. These indicate the coarseness or fineness of the flour. Very fine flour is a 000 flour. Coarser flour is a 0 flour. Caputo Americana appears to be the Italian's unbromated take on All Trumps.

Caputo Semola Flour appears to be a fine semolina flour. According to The Dough Doctor, "The semolina flour adds toughness/chew to the finished crust as well as a slightly different finished crust flavor profile," and that it can be used by up to 25% substitution of the dough flour. He did say that it will require tweaks to the hydration level to accommodate the semolina.

Questions:

Does anyone have experience with the Caputo Americana flour compared to All Trumps? I have read some people say that it takes browns too quickly and others saying it doesn't brown enough. Some say it is only good at higher temperatures and not good for at home oven use.

Do you all use Semola Flour in your NY style pizzas? What do you like / not like about it?

Yeast

Yeast works by breaking down (or fermenting) the natural sugars in your dough. As it ferments these sugars, it releases little bubbles of carbon dioxide into the dough. This happens when your dough is proofing (learn everything about how to proof your pizza dough). Along with the alcohols and acids that are released by fermentation, these bubbles are what puff the dough up and give your pizza that authentic and delicious, bready flavor.

Also read that the lower the yeast percentage, the longer you can cold ferment your dough. Longer = More Flavor

Questions

Since I don't like too fluffy pizzas (like Papa Johns Hand-Tossed), would it be safe to assume I would like a recipe with a lower yeast percentage?

Additionally, is there a flavor difference between ADY vs IDY yeast?

Water

The higher the hydration levels in your dough, the faster it will rise. This is because water speeds up chemical reactions in the dough, as it allows the yeast to move freely within it. The more water you use will also weaken the gluten in the dough which creates large air pockets.

"This is also why a higher dough absorption (within reason) produces a crispier crust; the dough is softer, and it has the capacity to expand more during baking, thus reducing the heat transfer properties from the bottom of the pizza into the center of the pizza. This allows the bottom to reach a higher temperature, faster during baking which, creates a crispier bottom. Physics 101." - Pete-zza

Question

Why does this recipe have such a low hydration level for a home cooked pizza yet the finished result looks really crispy? So pizzas like Papa John's hand-tossed pan must use a lot of water (and oil as you will see below) to make their hand tossed so annoyingly fluffy?

Diastatic Malt

The enzymes present in the diastatic malt will hydrolize starch into sugars that are fermentable by the yeast. This results in a softer, more sticky dough that will exhibit faster browning properties in the oven, resulting in a shorter baking time (to prevent “over baking”). This reduces the thickness of the bottom of the crust (browned portion). The resulting finished crust might be crispy when first removed from the oven but could quickly turn soft and floppy within minutes, if not seconds, of removal from the oven.
Additionally, remember we now have a higher sugar level in the dough. So as the dough is baked into a finished crust,  the loss of moisture from the dough further concentrates the residual sugars in the finished crust. Since sugar has an affinity for water, it pulls moisture out of the air (think of all the steam present with a boxed pizza) as well as from the moisture released from the toppings on the pizza to create a soft, soggy crust.

If you are in an area where high starch damage flour (12 to 20 percent) is the norm, don’t even think about adding diastatic malt to your dough formula because the enzymes (amylase) will have a nearly unlimited source of damaged starch to rapidly (within 90 minutes) hydrolyze into sugars to create a soft, soupy dough with all of the unique and sticky characteristics of fly paper.

Question

Considering the Caputo 00 Americana already is malted, what is the point of using even more in this recipe?

Oil

Finally, fats and oils provide tenderness, mouth feel and flavor to the finished crust. They also help enhance the volume of the dough and inhibit moisture penetration from the toppings during baking, thus helping to prevent gum line formation. Additionally, animal fats, such as lard, tallow and butter, lend unique flavor to the crust, as do vegetable fats, such as margarine or shortening. Vegetable oils (corn, canola, soybean and peanut) taste bland and impart little, if any, flavor to the finished crust. Olive oil, on the other hand, lends a pronounced and distinctive flavor to the finished crust.

I read in another thread that the chain pizza shops use a lot of oil to get that annoying fluffy hand-tossed pizza

Question

Is the oil used in this recipe to possibly offset the low hydration level?

[Pizza Shark]

I wouldn't use his dough recipe that utilizes "00" flour, Semolina, Diastatic Malt or his baking technique for NYS in his OONI.  He has an OONI and he bakes on a screen?  That's just silly but if it works for him and he's happy with his pies that's all that matters.  He wasted a pile of $ on an OONI to make pies he could have made in his home oven.

I'd say if you have an OONI and you want to make great NYS pies go with one of the numerous NYS dough recipes here that utilize common bread flours with maybe a little sugar added, learn how to stretch and slide a pie off a peel onto the hearth (no screens) and bake in the OONI at around a 550 degree average hearth temp that is about where a household oven maxes out and pretty much the temp that the vast majority of NYS pies coming from pizzerias are baked. 

If you don't have an OONI and are going to bake in your home oven on a hearth of some sort all the easier. 

Long story short, I say his dough recipe sucks for NYS and his use of his OONI oven baking on a screen also sucks. 

In my personal opinion, this is what a high-end NYS pie (not street style) baked in a home oven at 550 should look like (others may disagree).  Notice that I didn't use some pricey wooden or metal pizza peel but just a big piece of cardboard left over from an Amazon deliver to serve as my peel with the diameter of my stone drawn on it.  Works perfectly! 

I've never understood why people want to try and duplicate NYS Street.  It is garbage pizza and there's a reason it used to be sold for $1 a slice (now $2+).  I mean, NY style street competed with the the common, cheap $1 hot dogs from carts.  Cheap $1 dogs from carts also a thing of the past.   





             

[scott r]

Does anyone have experience with the Caputo Americana flour compared to All Trumps? I have read some people say that it takes browns too quickly and others saying it doesn't brown enough. Some say it is only good at higher temperatures and not good for at home oven use.

Since I don't like too fluffy pizzas (like Papa Johns Hand-Tossed), would it be safe to assume I would like a recipe with a lower yeast percentage?

Additionally, is there a flavor difference between ADY vs IDY yeast?

Why does this recipe have such a low hydration level for a home cooked pizza yet the finished result looks really crispy? So pizzas like Papa John's hand-tossed pan must use a lot of water (and oil as you will see below) to make their hand tossed so annoyingly fluffy?

Considering the Caputo 00 Americana already is malted, what is the point of using even more in this recipe?

I read in another thread that the chain pizza shops use a lot of oil to get that annoying fluffy hand-tossed pizza

Is the oil used in this recipe to possibly offset the low hydration level?

Caputo americana and all trumps are similar flours.  In fact I heard that Caputo was referencing All trumps when working on their formulation. You can make a very similar pizza with both of them.  Caputo americana browns very slightly less, but its not something I think you are going to notice unless doing side by side testing.

A lower least percentage is not going to get you a fluffier pizza.  Yeast amounts in the typical range for a NY style pizza is only about timing your pizza and when your dough will be perfectly ripe.   

There is zero flavor difference between ADY and IDY

The low hydration level is common for NY style pizza recipes, especially ones with lots of oil. 

The point of adding diastatic malt to flours that are already malted is to get additional browning.  That can be a good thing in home ovens that dont have a lot of power.  Sometimes you will find that using a flour that's slow to brown will give you a dried out pizza because of the extended bake time, where a pizza that is quick to brown will force you to pull it from the oven earlier retaining the moisture within the crust and toppings.

As far as fluffiness and oil... The more oil you use the softer and more tender the crust becomes.  Also, the less fluffy it becomes.  Think of a piece of birthday cake... that is an especially high oil dough... its the opposite of fluffy and incredibly tender.

What impacts fluffiness more than anything is how strong a doughs gluten development is (longer mixed more fluffy with some other factors that must be met), how recently it was balled (closer to balling is stronger and more fluffy), how it is handled during stretching (less compressed is more fluffy), how hot the bake temp is (higher more fluffy), how strong the flour is (higher protein more fluffy).  Hydration plays a role here too, but it gets complicated so im leaving off the details for now .   You have plenty of ideas to play with I think!

[scott r]

Great looking pie pizza shark!

[nanometric]

The one pizza that I do enjoy is Dominoes Brooklyn Style Pizza

FYI Brooklyn Style = taking a size M doughball and stretching it out to size L. I watched them do it, asked 'em about it, and they confirmed.

[zeus16]

I wouldn't use his dough recipe that utilizes "00" flour, Semolina, Diastatic Malt or his baking technique for NYS in his OONI.  He has an OONI and he bakes on a screen?  That's just silly but if it works for him and he's happy with his pies that's all that matters.  He wasted a pile of $ on an OONI to make pies he could have made in his home oven.

I'd say if you have an OONI and you want to make great NYS pies go with one of the numerous NYS dough recipes here that utilize common bread flours with maybe a little sugar added, learn how to stretch and slide a pie off a peel onto the hearth (no screens) and bake in the OONI at around a 550 degree average hearth temp that is about where a household oven maxes out and pretty much the temp that the vast majority of NYS pies coming from pizzerias are baked. 

If you don't have an OONI and are going to bake in your home oven on a hearth of some sort all the easier. 

Long story short, I say his dough recipe sucks for NYS and his use of his OONI oven baking on a screen also sucks. 

In my personal opinion, this is what a high-end NYS pie (not street style) baked in a home oven at 550 should look like (others may disagree).  Notice that I didn't use some pricey wooden or metal pizza peel but just a big piece of cardboard left over from an Amazon deliver to serve as my peel with the diameter of my stone drawn on it.  Works perfectly! 

I've never understood why people want to try and duplicate NYS Street.  It is garbage pizza and there's a reason it used to be sold for $1 a slice (now $2+).  I mean, NY style street competed with the the common, cheap $1 hot dogs from carts.  Cheap $1 dogs from carts also a thing of the past.   





           

Thanks Pizza Shark. I agree with some of your points, especially the wasted Ooni on NY style. However, I think the thinner NY style pizzas have their place.

I like the thinner crusts, or the street style, and personally think a pie like the one you made to be too “doughy” for my liking.

That’s just my personal preference. I tend to side on the less bread per bite side of the spectrum. For instance, I sometimes take one side of the bun off when having a hot dog or burger.

[zeus16]

Caputo americana and all trumps are similar flours.  In fact I heard that Caputo was referencing All trumps when working on their formulation. You can make a very similar pizza with both of them.  Caputo americana browns very slightly less, but its not something I think you are going to notice unless doing side by side testing.

A lower least percentage is not going to get you a fluffier pizza.  Yeast amounts in the typical range for a NY style pizza is only about timing your pizza and when your dough will be perfectly ripe.   

There is zero flavor difference between ADY and IDY

The low hydration level is common for NY style pizza recipes, especially ones with lots of oil. 

The point of adding diastatic malt to flours that are already malted is to get additional browning.  That can be a good thing in home ovens that dont have a lot of power.  Sometimes you will find that using a flour that's slow to brown will give you a dried out pizza because of the extended bake time, where a pizza that is quick to brown will force you to pull it from the oven earlier retaining the moisture within the crust and toppings.

As far as fluffiness and oil... The more oil you use the softer and more tender the crust becomes.  Also, the less fluffy it becomes.  Think of a piece of birthday cake... that is an especially high oil dough... its the opposite of fluffy and incredibly tender.

What impacts fluffiness more than anything is how strong a doughs gluten development is (longer mixed more fluffy with some other factors that must be met), how recently it was balled (closer to balling is stronger and more fluffy), how it is handled during stretching (less compressed is more fluffy), how hot the bake temp is (higher more fluffy), how strong the flour is (higher protein more fluffy).  Hydration plays a role here too, but it gets complicated so im leaving off the details for now .   You have plenty of ideas to play with I think!

Thanks Scott. I was confused because I found a lot of people saying more hydration = more crispy, but then I saw people saying that’s not necessarily true.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=55451.20

[zeus16]

FYI Brooklyn Style = taking a size M doughball and stretching it out to size L. I watched them do it, asked 'em about it, and they confirmed.

I believe you are right in terms of the size of the doughball, but they are two different dough recipes between the Brooklyn style and Hand-tossed / Pan

[nanometric]

I believe you are right in terms of the size of the doughball, but they are two different dough recipes between the Brooklyn style and Hand-tossed / Pan

They told me at the time (maybe...3yrs ago) that it was the same dough as Hand-tossed, just stretched thinner. Mighta changed since then.

[PipErnest]

...
I've never understood why people want to try and duplicate NYS Street.  It is garbage pizza and there's a reason it used to be sold for $1 a slice (now $2+).  I mean, NY style street competed with the the common, cheap $1 hot dogs from carts.  Cheap $1 dogs from carts also a thing of the past.   
...
   

Aren't Luigi's, Joe's, Johnny's ( Mount Vernon ) considered NY street style ?  ( and maybe even Di Fara and Scarr's ). Perhaps there is good NY street style and bad NY street style.

[TXCraig1]

Flour 

Flours milled in Italy are usually graded by a series of zeros. These indicate the coarseness or fineness of the flour. Very fine flour is a 000 flour. Coarser flour is a 0 flour.

FWIW - the 0's and numbers in Italian flour specifications have to do with extraction level and minimum protein, not particle size. It's a common myth, however there is no spec for coarseness/fineness of the flour.

http://www.tusaf.org/Eklenti/367,sandro-zaniratowheat-flour-standards-in-eupdf.pdf?0

[Pizza Shark]

Thanks Pizza Shark. I agree with some of your points, especially the wasted Ooni on NY style. However, I think the thinner NY style pizzas have their place.

I like the thinner crusts, or the street style, and personally think a pie like the one you made to be too “doughy” for my liking.

That’s just my personal preference. I tend to side on the less bread per bite side of the spectrum. For instance, I sometimes take one side of the bun off when having a hot dog or burger.

Ahhh, but what those pics don't show (sorry I didn't take any of a cross section pics of that pie) is how thin the crust is.  There's nothing "doughy" about it, just thin and crisp.  The big puffed up edges are almost hollow.  Taking pics of pies like this from the top is very misleading.  When I stretch these skins I can almost see through them (with the exception of the rim that I like nice and puffy). 

To prove my point, here's pics of a pie I recently made in my OONI.  From the top shot it looks thick and "doughy" but take a look at the side shot and underside shots... Thin and crisp. This is like low carb pizza it is so thin with a puffed up airy edge.