Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr

[hammettjr]

Matt, great reporting...Thanks for sharing . I love the thinness and the bottom color of Tommy's especially, but they both look great.  These are just simple and classic, the definition to me, of NY pizza.  I also love that apparently Louis and Ernie's owners live above the shop!

More than happy to report. It's a tough job, but somebody's gotta do it 

Louie & Ernie's sure takes basement pizza to a new level

[quietdesperation]

sorry matt, I should have PMed you to try the sausage at lou and ernies. It looks awful, rolls off the pie, but it's really good.

[hammettjr]

sorry matt, I should have PMed you to try the sausage at lou and ernies. It looks awful, rolls off the pie, but it's really good.

No worries, I knew about it from your review and from pics on yelp. I considered trying it, but stuck with my no topping rule.

[invertedisdead]

With taking some time off around Thanksgiving and the kids still in school, I was able dedicate a midday for research. I needed to choose a borough, and was debating between Brooklyn and the Bronx...the Bronx won. I visited 2 pizzerias - Louie & Ernie's, and Tommy's on Tremont.

** Louie & Ernie's

Louie & Ernie's was really good. I loved the ratios. I knew going in that it would be a thin slice, but they didn't hold back on the sauce and cheese, or on the herbs and romano! The slice did have a taper, with the ultra thin middle being soft and floppy despite being re-heated slices. I'm repeating myself, but I was really happy with the amount of sauce and cheese on this pie, being happily surprised by the heavy-handed topping. It also had a good amount of pepper and other seasoning. My one complaint, and this is personal preference, is that I'm a bit of a wuss when it comes to romano, and they let the romano fly.

On my way out I saw them top a pie. I wish the pic was better, but there's a ton of romano on the center of the pie, and a good amount going around the pie too. And there were tons of specs of seasoning visible.

I really liked the atmosphere of this place too. Being there on the Monday before Thanksgiving at 11:45am, there were 2 other customers just relaxing at tables, while it seemed like 2 sisters and 1 brother (the pie maker) happily discussed Thanksgiving and the prior day's football games. I've never really spent time in the Bronx. But this was a place I'd happily sit and relax at for a while.

I recommend this slice, and highly recommend it for anyone that likes romano.

**Tommy's

I’m never trusting of re-heated slices, so I generally like to order a whole pie. But given I was going to 2 pizzerias I went with what they had.
 
Tommy’s I think suffered from the re-heat.  I’m pretty sure I had slices from 2 different pies. One was totally toasted. The other was much better. It had a nice melt of pre-shredded Grande (not sure which one). But it still didn’t have enough sauce for me. Watching him top a pie, it didn’t seem so undersauced, so maybe this slice also had re-heat issues, or maybe it just wasn’t enough sauce for the amount of cheese. But I’m becoming a sauce-hound. No dry slices for me.

It was still a cool place to stop in. I never had such a clean look into a deck oven. Talk about seasoned! I was skeptical of the cornmeal on the bench and peel, but it wasn’t offensive. If I’m ever there again, I’d get a fresh pie.

**Louie & Ernie's pics below

Love to hear (and see) these first hand reports from longstanding historic slice shops. That's a classic looking slice from Louie & Ernie's!

[Minolta Rokkor]

Wondering where you've been, Mr, Rokkor!


So wait, you "hate" those beautiful puffy rim pies you were baking??!!

Well now that I think about, it has to do more with the pizza at my job than my very own.
Their dough is dense and heavy.

I've contemplated buying a stone, but I have other things to put money towards first.

[hammettjr]

Well now that I think about, it has to do more with the pizza at my job than my very own.
Their dough is dense and heavy.

I've contemplated buying a stone, but I have other things to put money towards first.

You're working at a pizzeria? If yes, that's awesome! What's your role?

[Minolta Rokkor]

You're working at a pizzeria? If yes, that's awesome! What's your role?

I work at mellow mushroom as a "pizzz cook", I'm on the line stretching dough, topping it and launching it.
Working their has greatly expanded my creativity, and palette, for instance I never knew how much Ioved roasted tomatos. Or the fact that feta and ricotta can actually taste good on pizza, sadly food service feta and ricotta are on a different level compared to what you buy in stores.

It taught me a lot, for instance BBQ chicken pizza is best made as a baseless pizza with BBQ swirled on top.

I never knew how to make a calzone, but now I'm regarded as the calzone master lol. I also quickly learned consistent proper portioning of ingredients. But the coolest thing I learned was a proper edge stretch, like how the pro's do it. This was a huge wake up call, yes you can get a taperless edge without "classic" edge stretching, but it takes WAY too long and it's not consistent.
Was definitely worth it working there, it improved me quite a bit.

[hammettjr]

For tomorrow's bake I'm going to finally try a second stone in my kitchen oven for a "ceiling".

My options for distance between the stones are 6.25" or 4". I'm going to try 6.25".

I did a test pre-heat that was very successful. Preheated at 460 for 1:40 and the lower stone was 460-470 and the underside of the upper stone was 470-480.

The two stones are identical, with the upper stone upside down.

I may preheat a bit warmer for the real bake tomorrow.

[foreplease]

What change or result are you hoping will happen? That sounds terse but isn’t how I meant it.

[hammettjr]

What change or result are you hoping will happen? That sounds terse but isn’t how I meant it.

Not 100% certain, but maybe a bit different melt, and likely more browning on the rim. Was thinking more about deck oven bakes (not that adding a stone from amazon is going to turn my oven into a deck) and also looking back at some of my blackstone bakes which had nice melts. I'm wondering how much of my success in the Blackstone was a result of the upper stone (given I baked with with the flame way down).

[Jersey Pie Boy]

It will be good to see the effect this has...thanks for doing this test, Matt

[hammettjr]

Only a few bakes ago I said that my pizza was exactly to my taste. Yet today I decided to change a bunch of things. I'm still not sure exactly what to make of this pie, but it definitely wasn't as good as usual.

For easier reference, my last pie is here:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=51924.msg551287#msg551287

Changes:

1) Reduced TF to 0.09125 - I liked the thinness

2) 40% of my sauce was diluted paste - it was a nice taste, but didn't seem quite right. It really reminded me of my pan pizzas where I use paste. Maybe if I try a smaller amount of paste it will give me the extra oomph without taking over.

3) Tried grocery store oregano for the first time in a very long time. I used a good amount of it, but it was still too far in the background for me. Will likely go back to my usual Sicilian oregano next week.

4) Took my dough out 20 minutes earlier (full 3 hours before opening the dough) - still had bubbles 

5) The biggie, as described a couple posts above, I added a second stone into the oven as a "ceiling". I pre-heated at 470, which resulted in a lower stone temp of 470-480 and upper stone temp of 475-485. Then as usual turned the oven up to 500 at launch.

When I moved the pie from the screen directly to the stone 7 minutes into the bake, I could see the cheese was melting very slowly, and was super white. Moving to the stone started a rapid sauce boil, but only in a couple spots near the rim. The rest of the pie stayed white, so I gave it more time, ending up with a 10 minute bake.

The result was still a white melt. I didn't like the look of it. And it had some texture issues. Though there were some interesting takeaways:
- It seemed like I had a huge amount of cheese, despite using 12.5 ounces like last bake (and down from 13.5 a from a few bakes ago).
- Flavor wise it was lacking the orange sauce meld, which was disappointing. But it did have a bit of milky cheese flavor
- It did have some resemblance to pizzeria melts I've experienced before, albeit not my preferred ones.
So the question is whether I go back to one stone, or try again with either a hotter upper stone, or moving the upper stone closer to the lower stone, or removing the screen earlier, or using less cheese. I'm leaning towards scrapping the second stone as I was very happy with my bakes before started messing with it.

Edit: its entirely possible the my ratios aren't right yet since I moved to 16" pies. I may need to reduce the mozz.

[Josh123]

Tbh, both the top and bottom could have used an extra minute in the oven. Also 470 seems a bit low for the classic NY melt. Bumping it to 500 at launch doesn't mean you'll even reach that temp. Certainly the stone won't. Plus you're losing heat on the launch. Try preheating at 500 and then setting to 525. Lately ive been baking at 525 and I feel my pizzas look better than ever. Sometimes 550 cooks the bottom too quick and 500 seems to take too long, though since I sell pizza to the public I have to keep an eye on speed.

You could take that bottom darker and still get your chew by letting the pizza sit for an extra 2 to 3 mins before eating.

Also another trick with these type of screens is you can let the top cook to about 95% of where you want it before putting it on the stone. These Queens screens are specifically designed so the top and bottom cook evenly. A lot of places dont even put them on the brick. You dont need to unless you're busy and the stones are getting cold.

[Jackitup]

The bottom color is about right where my wife likes it but I agree, the edge is a bit too blond. I say go full out at 550° How long was your pre-heat? With my huge Fibrament I go 1 hour, and I assume you're using an IR gun. On 2nd look at the last one you linked, if I'm being picky and you're asking, that could've used a titch more heat too. Next one go high, I doubt you have to drop much, if any!

[Essen1]

I am sorry but your pies, even the one you linked to, look anemic, undercook and raw. At least the outer crust (you didn't provide a crumb shot). I agree with Jon and Josh that you should up the temp to the max.

Screens suck a lot of heat from the spot you place them in and a lot of pizzerias do that type of thing to lower the heat, and to control deck temps, in certain hot spots (empty screens). You don't have that luxury.

Your oven will not recover, nor maintain heat and temp, like a professional one, especially after you opened the door to put your pie in. So upping the temp to 500 F once you launched, is futile.

Instead, take your stone, throw it away and buy a square or rectangular one. Then get the new one as hot as possible, and monitor the bottom of the pie. Place a screen underneath once it reaches your desired browning.

P.S.: Those Bed and Bath stones suck. Bite the bullet and order a 1" thick stone from californiapizzastones.com. Best on the market.

[hammettjr]

Yes, I get it. It was a worthwhile experiment, but the second stone had all kinds of impacts. I could play around with it to make it work, but I mostly likely wont go down that route.

[Essen1]

Yes, I get it. It was a worthwhile experiment, but the second stone had all kinds of impacts. I could play around with it to make it work, but I mostly likely wont go down that route.

Matt,

Just to clarify,...my post above wasn't intended to come across as mean or condescending.

You make good looking pies, there's no doubt about that. But the last few lacked severely in color and looked raw and undercooked. You can do better than this.

I did the 2-stone thing, but in a different way. I started on the lower stone, then moved the pie to the upper stone to finish it. I also covered the vent of my home oven at that time with the lid of my cast iron cooker. Made a huge difference.

Also, I got rid of round, flimsy stones a long, long time ago. A lot of valuable heat passes them by and goes straight out your oven's vent. Not good.

I suggest a rectangular one, at least .75 inches thick, on the bottom and the same on top but without those "feet", or ridges, if you will. Keep them no more than 4 - 6 inches apart and when you're ready to move the pie up, kick in the broiler two minutes prior and you'll be fine.

Good luck.

[Hanglow]

I've liked using firebricks from my wfo as a base in my kitchen oven.  I can fit 6 in on a shelf and they weigh 1kg each so add a decent amount of mass to the oven compared to a small stone at least. They are also cheap if I had to buy more, only a couple of £ each. Admittedly I've only used them this way a few times

Might be worth considering. You could also get creative with putting more in too

[hammettjr]

No offense taken...I'm always looking to improve and constructive feedback helps. But I dont want to overreact to a failed/miscalibrated experiment. I plan to go back to basics this week, even going back down to 14".

[hammettjr]

Well this was a different and delicious bake! 

I was trying to go back to my usual 14" pie, with a few small changes (thanks to you guys blasting my botched prior pie...it's necessary given my stubbornness.)

But a few more accidental changes occurred too.

Changes

- Very thin - I was trying for a small reduction of TF to 0.09125 and due to a warm dough and being used to 16" pies, I overstretched this by an inch. 15" pie at 400 grams = TF of 0.08. I stretched it inconsistently, with half the pie an even very thin, and half the pie a bit thicker. I had the thin side while it was hot and it was damn good.

- Hotter bake - Stone temp of 500-510 via pre-heating at 480 (and slightly longer than usual). (Jon, I use an IR gun and actually rotate my stone towards the end of the pre-heat. This pre-heat was a full 2 hours.)

- Stone was one rack higher, 3rd from the bottom.

- Dough was super warm. Warmed up for 3 hours with a lot of this time sitting directly in front of my oven. This helped lead to my overstretch. But I also think this led to more rim browning. The stone placement likely contributed too, but I've found previously that my warm dough browns more.

- I had bad luck in picking a frozen bag of 7/11 which yielded less than a cup of strained tomato, while I normally use 1+1/4 cups. I added a bit of heavily diluted paste to get it to 1 cup. So it was still less than normal, and I kept some of my seasoning amounts the same, so it was an even more heavily seasoned sauce.

- Sauce amount was slightly heaping 3/4 cup + ~ 1 TBS

- Cheese was 9oz, which was my usual amount for a 14" pie, so it was thinner than usual given the skin was 15"

- Bake was 8:30 with 7:15 on screen and 1:15 on stone

Thoughts
- I really liked the thin hot slice, with lots of sauce, good amount of cheese, and lots of seasoning.
- Probably too much garlic
- The paste adds an interesting dimension, but even in the small amount, I don't think I like it in my NY pie
- Still cant get rid of the ugly bubbles
- The thicker slices probably could have used more cheese

Next time
- Try TF 0.085
- 9oz mozz
- Back to my usual sauce
- Warm the dough up again, but don't overstretch
- Same bake protocol