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Author Topic: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway  (Read 14053 times)

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #160 on: August 26, 2019, 08:17:47 AM »
Ah yes, yours is different...  I don't have the holder that you have, just a bar that can be removed.  Who knows maybe you can try to remove it from the bracket/holder, don't know how hard it is to bend the element.

You could try, but I'd wrap it in aluminum or aluminum tape so that no fibers can come out.  I'm trying to understand and google this stuff about isolating the door, still haven't found any real good answers yet.
Jack

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #161 on: August 26, 2019, 08:39:21 AM »
This answer from F1 addresses an earlier question that you had about turning the thermostats to 0: https://pizzanapo.fr/index.php?/topic/981-ventilation-p134h/&tab=comments#comment-20546
Jack

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Offline Heikjo

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #162 on: August 26, 2019, 12:32:26 PM »
Made a single one with Ischia today. First time I've used the starter for a long time. I've been feeding it the same stuff I feed my own starter, so it's probably less itself than it was when I first got it. It has a different smell than my own and both seem to be equally active now.

24 hours fermentation. It was 27 when I pulled it out to RT for an hour.

Turned out very good, even with a day-old fridged sauce and not the most interesting cow mozzarella. Probably my best pie so far with this starter. Difficult to say anything about difference in taste compared to my own. I should make one with each some day to try.

It was probably around 28cm and no turning. I launched it quite far back, so it ended up a little less baked there, as you can see at the top of the first photo, but not too bad. 60 seconds in the oven. 60g of mozzarella today after having used 80 on some occasions. 60g is a better fit for this size I think.

I came across some tomatoes and mozzarella I haven't tried before the other day, so I bought some. Probably have to use parts of the tomatoes one day and some of it the next, but if it's kept in the jar and stored in the fridge after opening I suppose it should be fine.

Yeah, that's what the manual said, amolapizza. Since the fan doesn't turn off, there's no problem anymore. I wasn't planning on unplugging it anyway.
Heine
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Offline Hanglow

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #163 on: August 26, 2019, 04:49:15 PM »
Looking good imo.  I like that garofalo mozz, has decent flavour and a nice tang. 

Offline Heikjo

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #164 on: September 01, 2019, 05:37:14 PM »
My starters are having the time of their lives recently. My last 48h attempt with 1.5% starter was ready after 24 hours. The one I got in there now at 1% was ready after 38 hours, so I balled it and turned the temperature in the cooler down to 10C, so hopefully it will be usable tomorrow morning. Guess I'll try 0.5% next time then.

I've noticed my bread doughs are also very quick recently. Just two hours bulk and they are ready for shaping.

I've also had an idea to use autolyse in a way to improve consistency. The plan is to autolyse all or almost all the water and flour, put it in the cooler and let it sit 2-3 hours. Then I add salt and starter, mix and fold it a bit, and if I want to do more folds with rests between, I'll put it in the cooler during the rests to avoid it warming up too much. I think that could improve temperature consistency, even if RT changes. Autolyse might also help in getting a nice texture on the dough without needing too many fold and rest periods.
Heine
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Offline Yael

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #165 on: September 01, 2019, 11:07:08 PM »
Heikjo,

You only use SD, no yeast, right?

You make me want to try again SD (I tried a couple of times before, but even at 15% it needed yeast... And I see you and other members use like 1% !), but making pizza once a week is not enough for me to use and feed a SD (lot of flour waste...). But I definitely will, one day  :angel:
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Offline Heikjo

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #166 on: September 02, 2019, 02:28:06 AM »
Yes, only SD. They've mostly been kept in RT for a long time now and fed 2-3 times a day. When I have to go away, I reduce hydration a bit and put them in the fridge.

There are ways to manage a starter with less feeding, but I was curious to see what happened with this regime. I have never needed as little starter as now before.
Heine
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Offline DoouBall

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #167 on: September 03, 2019, 04:46:45 PM »
I've also had an idea to use autolyse in a way to improve consistency. The plan is to autolyse all or almost all the water and flour, put it in the cooler and let it sit 2-3 hours. Then I add salt and starter, mix and fold it a bit, and if I want to do more folds with rests between, I'll put it in the cooler during the rests to avoid it warming up too much. I think that could improve temperature consistency, even if RT changes. Autolyse might also help in getting a nice texture on the dough without needing too many fold and rest periods.

Heikjo, I wanted to share with you some things I learned about autolyse through some experiments as well as discussions I've had lately with a couple of pro Italian pizzamakers.

If you do a simple 20 minute autolyse after combining flour + water, that won't affect your dough too much, so you can feel free to do that without making any other changes. However, if you do a long autolyse, such as 4-5 hours at room temp or overnight in the fridge, the autolyse dramatically changes your dough. Of course, there is the added extensibility and automatic gluten development. More important to consider though is that the enzymes break out sugars from the starch bonds and they become immediately available to the yeasts. That means two things after the yeast/sourdough is added:

1. Your yeasts feed ravenously right away increasing the rate of fermentation.
2. Your yeasts will consume all the available sugar faster than without the autolyse.

For this reason, it has been recommended to me to shorten or eliminate the bulk fermentation step altogether when using a long autolyse. I believe this is similar to what Renato (SAUZER) does when he autolyses for 2-3 hours, bulks for 2 hours and then leaves in ball for 19 hours. Without reducing the length of bulk, you risk not only a pale crust but also an overly slack dough. A similar problem can occur when making a dough out of a large amount of poolish - there is much less room for error in timing your bake.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you do a long autolyse, where the main benefits of autolyse really kick in, it's important to actually modify the rest of your dough process to account for the changes brought about by the autolyse.

Another way to achieve this effect is simply to do a long bulk fermentation. If you're already doing that, you already have the benefits of the autolyse without the possible downside of running out of sugar early and a pale crust. That's why Craig's 24 hour bulk, 24 hour ball recipe doesn't include an autolyse step - it happens naturally during an extended bulk.

If your primary goal is to increase consistency, I would suggest your efforts would be better spent on ensuring consistency in yeast/sourdough strength and quantity, amount and temperatures of water/flour/dough as well as precise timings between folds, rests and dough storage. You're probably already doing all of this - I believe that's where the consistency pays off. You sound like a guy who has done his research, so most of this is probably not news - hopefully this post is beneficial to you anyway. Cheers!
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 04:48:58 PM by DoouBall »
Alex

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Offline Heikjo

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #168 on: September 03, 2019, 05:08:35 PM »
First of all, thanks for that, DoouBall. Very useful information that I hadn't considered.

I had two reasons to look into autolyse. One was that it served as an easy way to mix all the major ingredients and let them reach my target fermentation temperature. That could of course be achieved without mixing them too. The other (and most important) was to try to achieve a better dough structure. I'm still not sure if my balls open to skins as well as they could. There are some very thin areas that seems to come from irregularities in the balls. Not that I expect them to be 100% uniform, but I was hoping there were ways to improve from where I'm at now. If autolyse can make any difference here, I don't know.

I was initially thinking about 2-4 hours, either at RT or in the cooler, most likely a match to whatever ambient temperature I was planning to ferment in.

I like doing 24-48h ferments at 15C, so maybe autolyse isn't ideal. But is there a difference let's say between a 24 hour dough where you add all the ingredients at the same time, compared to one where you autolyse for 4 hours at RT, then add the rest and leave for 20 hours, for a total of 24 hours? Does the autolyse make the sugars more available to a point where the total fermentation time should be shortened?

I got a dough going right now as an experiment. It's probably my first dough fermented in RT over more than 12 hours. When making the dough this morning at 10AM I was thinking that it would probably be ready at 3AM. I was not wrong, because after sitting pretty at 16 for the entire day, it was not at 19, so it would never have made it through the night.

I balled and put them in the cooler at 15C. Might not be enough to slow it down, but I've made pizza with balls that went past 40 before, so it might work out fine.

The purpose was to see if I could find a difference between my 15C doughs and 24C doughs. I usually take them out of the cooler 1-2 hours before, but they don't make it to RT when opening. I was also curious to see if there were any differences simply from fermenting at a higher temperature.

The dough felt quite nice to work with now that I balled them, so this experiment will have to repeated another day. I'll need to use less starter or mix the dough in the evening.

I've also started making a better effort at registering the fermentation. I've written some down manually here and there during a doughs development, but I want to aim a webcam at the pluviometer and make graphs that show how it fermented.

I came across some scamorza affumicata today (smoked mozzarella). I think I've seen it mentioned on the forum somewhere. Maybe I'll pick it up one day and try it.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 05:41:58 PM by Heikjo »
Heine
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Offline DoouBall

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #169 on: September 03, 2019, 05:55:20 PM »
Sounds like you got yourself some fun experiments to try!

On the subject of thin spots, there are a couple of possible reasons and solutions.

If the issue is that the dough is not very evenly mixed and has some lumps, a couple of options are available for improvement.

1)Mix like Ciro Salvio does in this video - very easy to get a real smooth dough.



2)Try the pincer method from Ken Forkish - it allows very easy incorporation of lumps from the outside of the dough to the inside, making the whole thing smooth and even:



If on the other hand, the issue is with the balling process, try a few different methods to ball and stretch your dough - thin spots often come from uneven balling or uneven stretching. There are lots of good methods on YouTube - I'm sure you will find one you like best.

One tip that works for me when balling is - don't use any flour. Do the whole process in the air and make sure that the seam is perfectly closed on the bottom. Using flour during balling can prevent the folds from smoothing out inside the dough ball and that can lead to an uneven stretch at the end.  Here's an example, balling process starts around 3:00



Good luck!
Alex

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Offline Heikjo

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #170 on: September 04, 2019, 07:34:17 AM »
Great videos, thank you!

I'm not sure if there actually is a problem, and if there is, where it lies. I really need to get that lightscreen plan of mine going. I think that could be interesting.

On mixing I think I'll try something similar to what Ciro does. I usually just throw everything in a bowl and mix it, then give it a rest or two with some kneading and folding after each rest. Adding the flour part by part might help distribute it better. This was another reason for the autolyse attempt. I wanted to give the water and flour a change to get to know eachother before adding the remaining ingredients.

Based on what I've seen on videos, I think my balling technique is fine. Can of course always be improved upon, but I pretty much do what some of these videos demonstrate. Flour is never used in that process, just in the air with my hands. I think the thin spots are more a result of the air in the balls than something lingering from the mixing and balling. That may just be how a Neapolitan dough is supposed to look. I will try different degrees of fermentation. I'm usually on the high side of things.

The balls from last night ended up fine. When I got up at 7AM the pluviometer read 27. The balls then spent a few hours in RT to warm up and opened up nicely. If anything, maybe a bit far fermented since they had some large rim-bubbles I had to pop or cut off after bake. When I was ready to open, the first was still a bit sticky, so I held it in front of the fan exhaust of the oven. That worked very well to get rid of the last moisture sitting on top of the balls.

I even remembered to add olive oil to the margherita before launching today. I probably forget 9/10 times. And I remembered basil.
Heine
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Offline DoouBall

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #171 on: September 04, 2019, 11:00:09 AM »
Hey bud, I'm sure your process is perfectly fine - I was just suggesting a couple of things to try - hope I didn't offend.

Your latest pizzas look great! I'd eat that Margherita right now!!!
Alex

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Offline Heikjo

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #172 on: September 04, 2019, 11:11:20 AM »
Hey bud, I'm sure your process is perfectly fine - I was just suggesting a couple of things to try - hope I didn't offend.

Your latest pizzas look great! I'd eat that Margherita right now!!!
Not at all, Doou. I always appreciate input and ideas and don't take offense to any feedback. Wouldn't be here if I didn't. As I said, I don't know what I could improve on and what is probably fine, so everything is worth evaluating.
Heine
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Offline Heikjo

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #173 on: September 09, 2019, 10:59:07 AM »
I recalled Yael's drawing of using the dough closer towards the peak of its fermentation, and read through some of pizzadaheim's posts since he uses dough that is very fermented. He also use 65-70% hydration and fermentation in 24-25C. I don't understand how that works, but maybe the balling timing is an important part of it. Still, just working with 70% hydration sounds difficult. Maybe I'll have to try it once and see what happens.

I used 4.5% starter and it was 27 after 22 hours. I put the dough in the cooler between foldings, which probably slowed it down compared to normal.

After 22 hours I took the dough out, balled and left at RT another 7 hours.

Working with very fermented balls I didn't want to take any chances, so I used a lot of bench flour, but only after letting the balls ventilate for 15-20 minutes first. They were quite dimply, like a golf ball, but behaved very well and opened nicely. I opened them with intention to not push air into the rim. The skin felt thicker than usual, more bloated.

The first pie went well, but the second sadly never made it into the oven. It tore at the side going farthest into the oven after it was on the peel and when I tried to mend it, time were not my friend and everything started to stick to the peel. I've had a disaster covering an entire room in smoke before, so I ditched it.

The positive is that the pie I did bake was really good. Softer and more tender crust than I've had in a long time, and I expect more fermentation to be the reason.

I want to continue experimenting with highly fermented doughs, but hope I can find a way that doesn't introduce too much risk of tearing.

The skin on the video below (by pizzadaheim) looks so smooth and homogeneous, I don't understand how it's possible. Poor lighting though, maybe it looks better on camera than IRL, but still.

Heine
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Offline DoouBall

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #174 on: September 09, 2019, 11:57:35 AM »
pizzadaheim and others who make Neapolitan style pies using 70% hydrations typically don't use sourdough. Sourdough has much stronger protease activity which tends to degrade the gluten more than fresh yeast and as a result, a 70% hydrated sourdough base like yours will be much more slack, stretch almost too easily, and may tear if allowed to stretch too thin. It's still workable, just a bit more challenging.

One of the best things I learned in working with high hydration pizzas such is to use semola rimanciata as your dusting flour. Makes stretching and handling much much easier. Regular flour can get absorbed right in the dough and within seconds, the dough is wet and sticking again. Semola tends to create a powder coating on the outside of the dough that keeps it "dry" long enough to stretch, top and bake. Good luck!
Alex

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Offline Heikjo

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #175 on: September 09, 2019, 12:10:52 PM »
Good point, Doou. Maybe there are some differences at play there too regarding higher fermentation.

I can try semola for my current recipes too, since sticking is an issue. I still hope to be able to make a better dough, but the sourdough effect might be causing problems there too.

I think Sauzer uses natural yeast and higher hydration.

Higher hydration is sort of a sidetrack here. My main goal was looking into higher fermented doughs. Maybe I will try some with yeast instead to see what happens.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2019, 12:34:03 PM by Heikjo »
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Offline hotsawce

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #176 on: September 10, 2019, 11:27:13 AM »
Re: thin spots: I've seen this professionally in a number of instances.

most likely, the bottom of the ball is not sealed properly. That's almost always the largest culprit.

If you're getting thin weak spots all over the dough skin - almost like you can see the gluten starting to tear, I'm guessing it's an issue with your starter or it's approaching over fermentation....but the color of your pies don't seem to indicate that.

Offline DoouBall

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #177 on: September 10, 2019, 12:04:49 PM »
Yup, that's why I prefer to close dough balls without flour. I find that flour interferes with the seams on the bottom of the ball fully sealing themselves - the flour almost forms many little barriers which prevent a perfect seal.

This hypothesis was confirmed by Chad Robertson in this video when he talks about shaping the final balls for his bread. It's really important to him that the seams are fully sealed. By the way, if you're into bread, this is a very cool video to watch by the owner of the famous Tartine bakery. It's amazing how effortlessly he handles 80%+ hydrated dough.



It's easy to test if the balls are fully sealed or not - 1)use no flour when forming so that internal seams close themselves 2)after forming the dough balls, look on the bottom and the top of the dough ball. there should be no visible lines or openings anywhere. Often when I do an imperfect job, when I turn the ball upside down, I can immediately tell it's not sealed. Then I pinch the seam closed and that fixes it.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2019, 12:09:33 PM by DoouBall »
Alex

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Offline Heikjo

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #178 on: September 10, 2019, 02:14:43 PM »
Getting a good seal is usually not a problem when I ball the dough before it's fermented too far. The last balls I deliberately fermented farther and they were pretty uneven when I balled, and I was not getting a nice seal or even-looking ball. I couldn't try more either since the balls tighten up pretty quickly. It wasn't just the bottom either, the entire ball was dimply.

I'm thinking that the sourdough and level of fermentation is a culprit regarding the thin spots on the skins. I had more of these problems some time ago when I frequently let the balls ferment more. It probably returned now since I let the balls ferment more.

The idea for fermenting more came from Yael and pizzadaheim, but as Doou pointed out, they used commercial yeast, which isn't as hard on the dough as sourdough and can probably ferment farther without intorducing problems.

There may be a way to ferment more with SD and still get away with it, but I haven't found it yet. What I do know is that the last pizza was softer and more tender, likely because of more fermentation.

I was looking for a similar result from leaving them in balls for longer, but that didn't seem to have too much effect. Neither did using RT-warm balls.

At this point it seems like I have to choose between flavor and tenderness, where SD wins the first category and commercial yeast the last. If I want to ferment the dough far and still get a skin that is cooperating, I'll need to use commercial yeast. It sounds like it makes sense that the fermentation level is an important factor contributing to the level of softness in the crumb.

I think I'm looking for much the same that Arne has been trying to find after his visit to Sorbillo, and most of his experiments hasn't given a clear results. I'm glad to finally have a positive result, even if it turned out to be caused by something that also bring problems with it.

I'm very much into bread, Doou. That's where my sourdough adventure started four years ago. With a few exceptions I make all the bread we eat at home, all with sourdough. After getting into it I can't go back to bread with commercial yeast. It taste too hollow and boring. There is certainly a lot of experience in the people that handle 80% doughs like nothing. Possibly some help from the flour, but most from the hands doing the work.
Heine
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Offline Heikjo

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #179 on: June 22, 2021, 06:53:25 AM »
How time flies. I decided to cut back on forums two years ago to prioritize other things in life. Things are more relaxed now, forums slowly crept back and I already frequent some baking related sites, so I wanted to get back in here as well.

Iíve been making my Neapolitan with SD pretty consistently, but not been too happy with the results lately. Dough behaves a bit weird, final product isnít as great anymore and thereís a gum line I donít approve of. I have suspected my starter being slightly off for some time so I just made a new one. Iíve made a few loaves with it and it works very well. Back when I started with NP SD I made 48h doughs, then focused more on 24h and when I attempted 48h it didnít turn out too well. I want to give it a new go and see what the new starter can do, both with 24h and 48h. I wondered today if the gluten in the 24h doughs didnít get enough time to develop since I use the same method as I did for 48h, with very little dough handling. I may want to give it some mixing or kneading for 24h doughs.

I also plan to try Maurizioís sourdough pizza al Taglio over at theperfectloaf.com. I have had a couple attempts, but not at all happy with them. Dense, hard crust, gum line. Hopefully the new starter may alleviate some of the issues.
Heine
Oven: Effeuno P134H

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