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## White Whole Wheat

Started by charbo, March 04, 2006, 02:29:13 PM

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#### Pizzalogy

Quote from: Pete-zza on May 14, 2010, 11:08:43 AM
ERASMO,

I have set forth below a dough formulation that I think should come pretty close to the original dough recipe. To do the conversion, I weighed the 10 fluid ounces of water on my regular scale and I weighed the rounded 1/2 teaspoon of salt on a special scale that I use for such purposes. I also used charbo's weight for the 3 cups of KAWWW flour to get the weight of the 3/8 cup of that flour used for kneading purposes. I combined both parts of the KAWWW flour on the assumption that all of the kneading flour will eventually end up in the dough. That may not always be the case, so you should exercise your best judgment as to how much of the kneading flour to use. As noted in the dough formulation below, which I prepared using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, the main part of the KAWWW flour (3 cups by volume) represents 89% of the total weight of KAWWW flour and the kneading KAWWW flour (3/8 cup) represents 11% of the total. I mention these percents since they are the ones one would use to do the proper apportioning if the dough formulation is modified for more than one dough ball and/or for different pizza sizes.

Based on a total dough ball weight of 25.58 ounces and the 16" pizza size that is made from that dough ball, I calculated a thickness factor of 0.127214. I did not use a bowl residue compensation, but you are free to use one if you would like. Finally, because the Bob's Red Mill brand of vital wheat gluten seems to be the most common brand used by our members, I used that brand for purposes of coming up with the dough formulation presented below. I can adjust the dough formulation for you if you end up with a different brand. The only brand I have been able to find in the supermarkets near me is the Hodgson Mill brand.

 KAWWW Flour* (100%):Water (68.9777%):ADY (0.94814%):Salt (1.30433%):Olive Oil (3.38624%):Sugar (1%):Vital Wheat Gluten** (6.27081%):Total (181.88722%): 398.67 g  |  14.06 oz | 0.88 lbs274.99 g  |  9.7 oz | 0.61 lbs3.78 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp5.2 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.93 tsp | 0.31 tbsp (rounded 1/2 t.)13.5 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp3.99 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp25 g | 0.88 oz | 0.06 lbs | 9.04 tsp | 3.01 tbsp725.13 g | 25.58 oz | 1.6 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: For a single 16" pizza; calculated thickness factor = 0.127214; no bowl residue compensation
*The main part of the KAWWW flour represents 89% of the total flour weight and the kneading KAWWW flour represents 11% of the total flour weight.
**Bob's Red Mill brand

The actual hydration will be somewhat lower than indicated in the above dough formulation because the VWG is treated separately. If the VWG is combined with the KAWWW flour, the "effective" hydration is 64.91%.

Peter

i have a couple of questions about this recipe. first of all, what does it mean to "hydrate yeast"? i know this may sound silly considering i have already made this recipe twice, but i did not know what it meant so i just added the yeast to the water and let it sit for a few minutes before adding it to the flour. is that "hydrating" it? also, does the water temperature matter?

and about the salt amount, why does it say .93 teaspoons rounded to .5 teaspoons? why round down instead of up? would adding a teaspoon of salt intefere with the rising or could it be done for more flavor? thanks.

#### Pizzalogy

another question. the 30 hour refrigeration time keeps throwing me off because it always ends up being in the middle of the night. should i alter the amount of yeast to make it a 24 or 48 hour time? would taking it out of the fridge for a couple of hours before baking make it work with say an 18 hour refrigeration time?

#### Pete-zza

Quote from: Pizzalogy on May 16, 2010, 11:58:05 PM
i have a couple of questions about this recipe. first of all, what does it mean to "hydrate yeast"? i know this may sound silly considering i have already made this recipe twice, but i did not know what it meant so i just added the yeast to the water and let it sit for a few minutes before adding it to the flour. is that "hydrating" it? also, does the water temperature matter?

and about the salt amount, why does it say .93 teaspoons rounded to .5 teaspoons? why round down instead of up? would adding a teaspoon of salt interfere with the rising or could it be done for more flavor? thanks.

Peter,

The common term for activating a dry yeast like ADY is "rehydrate" or "prehydrate". The way you do this with ADY is to take a small amount of the formula water, heat it to about 105 degrees F, stir the ADY into the water to dissolve, and let the mixture sit for about 10 minutes. It can then be added to the remaining formula water or to the rest of the ingredients in the mixer bowl. The water temperature (about 105 degrees F), is important. If you are too far off either side of the recommended value, the yeast performance can suffer.

On the matter of the salt, I parenthetically noted that a rounded half teaspoon is intended because that is what the recipe calls for. Since the expanded dough calculating tool is based on level measurements rather than rounded (or scant) measurements, I had to weigh a rounded half-teaspoon of salt to get its weight. In your case, you should use 0.93 teaspoons, which is just shy of a level teaspoon of salt. Since you were confused by my parenthetical statement, I will revise my post to clarify what I meant.

Peter

#### charbo

Looking back on the recipe after four years, I notice a number of things I would do and express differently.  Nevertheless, I hesitate to suggest changes, because the recipe has worked for several people.

Someone wanted to cover the taste of the whole wheat with more toppings.  Such an increase could cause a gum layer problem.  Instead, I would look at the flour's freshness and at the relatively large amount of VWG.

King Arthur White Whole Wheat is all, or mostly, winter wheat.  Winter wheat is not high in protein, thus VWG might be needed.  However, I don't think the VWG improves the flavor.  One could reduce the VWG and then strengthen the dough by using white spring wheat, increasing the very modest salt level, or adding some stretch-and-folds.

#### Pete-zza

charbo,

Given your expertise with whole wheat pizza doughs, can you tell me whether there is such a thing as a "NY style" pizza, sold by that name, but using whole wheat flour or something similar (maybe even a blend of whole wheat flour and another flour)?

Peter

A D V E R T I S E M E N T

#### Pizzalogy

#25
Quote from: charbo on May 18, 2010, 12:10:07 PM
Looking back on the recipe after four years, I notice a number of things I would do and express differently.  Nevertheless, I hesitate to suggest changes, because the recipe has worked for several people.

Someone wanted to cover the taste of the whole wheat with more toppings.  Such an increase could cause a gum layer problem.  Instead, I would look at the flour's freshness and at the relatively large amount of VWG.

King Arthur White Whole Wheat is all, or mostly, winter wheat.  Winter wheat is not high in protein, thus VWG might be needed.  However, I don't think the VWG improves the flavor.  One could reduce the VWG and then strengthen the dough by using white spring wheat, increasing the very modest salt level, or adding some stretch-and-folds.

i can verify that the VWG makes a big difference. i made a batch without, by accident actually, but i decided to continue to see what the result would be and i was unable to stretch the dough without it tearing. i may try some of your other suggestions for reducing the vwg gluten. how does vital wheat gluten affect the flavor?

what exactly is a gum layer problem?

#### charbo

Pete,

I don't think I've seen a real NY-style whole wheat pizza, but I don't get around much anymore.  The last WW pizza I bought was at Pyzano's in Castro Valley, Calif, and there was no pretense of NY-style.  Pizzerias probably figure it's not worth the complications.  My own pizza has a cornice and a relatively thin field, but it's not really NY-style.

Pizzalogy,

VWG tastes harsh to Reinhart.  I think most people don't notice it, assuming the amount isn't enough to cause the pie to be rubbery.

A gum line is a layer of wet, uncooked dough where moisture from the toppings has seeped.

cb

#### Pizzalogy

#27
i figured that's what you meant by gum layer. i didn't really have that problem, i think because when i was using white flour i was going very light on the toppings, so when i increased them i just increased them to an amount that a lot of people use anyway. do you know roughly how much sauce and cheese you use?

#### charbo

For a 16-inch pizza, I use 8 oz of cheese and 7 oz of sauce.  Remaining toppings are light.

#### Ronzo

Quote from: Pete-zza on May 14, 2010, 11:08:43 AM
ERASMO,

I have set forth below a dough formulation that I think should come pretty close to the original dough recipe. To do the conversion, I weighed the 10 fluid ounces of water on my regular scale and I weighed the rounded 1/2 teaspoon of salt on a special scale that I use for such purposes. I also used charbo's weight for the 3 cups of KAWWW flour to get the weight of the 3/8 cup of that flour used for kneading purposes. I combined both parts of the KAWWW flour on the assumption that all of the kneading flour will eventually end up in the dough. That may not always be the case, so you should exercise your best judgment as to how much of the kneading flour to use. As noted in the dough formulation below, which I prepared using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, the main part of the KAWWW flour (3 cups by volume) represents 89% of the total weight of KAWWW flour and the kneading KAWWW flour (3/8 cup) represents 11% of the total. I mention these percents since they are the ones one would use to do the proper apportioning if the dough formulation is modified for more than one dough ball and/or for different pizza sizes.

Based on a total dough ball weight of 25.58 ounces and the 16" pizza size that is made from that dough ball, I calculated a thickness factor of 0.127214. I did not use a bowl residue compensation, but you are free to use one if you would like. Finally, because the Bob's Red Mill brand of vital wheat gluten seems to be the most common brand used by our members, I used that brand for purposes of coming up with the dough formulation presented below. I can adjust the dough formulation for you if you end up with a different brand. The only brand I have been able to find in the supermarkets near me is the Hodgson Mill brand.

 KAWWW Flour* (100%):Water (68.9777%):ADY (0.94814%):Salt** (1.30433%):Olive Oil (3.38624%):Sugar (1%):Vital Wheat Gluten*** (6.27081%):Total (181.88722%): 398.67 g  |  14.06 oz | 0.88 lbs274.99 g  |  9.7 oz | 0.61 lbs3.78 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp5.2 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.93 tsp | 0.31 tbsp 13.5 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3 tsp | 1 tbsp3.99 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp25 g | 0.88 oz | 0.06 lbs | 9.04 tsp | 3.01 tbsp725.13 g | 25.58 oz | 1.6 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: For a single 16" pizza; calculated thickness factor = 0.127214; no bowl residue compensation
*The main part of the KAWWW flour represents 89% of the total flour weight and the kneading KAWWW flour represents 11% of the total flour weight.
**The stated values are equivalent to a rounded 1/2-teaspoon of salt
***Bob's Red Mill brand

The actual hydration will be somewhat lower than indicated in the above dough formulation because the VWG is treated separately. If the VWG is combined with the KAWWW flour, the "effective" hydration is 64.91%.

Peter

Using this recipe for this week's pie. Will probably be eaten Friday or Saturday evening.
Fuggheddabowdit!

~ Ron

Former NY'er living in Texas
https://imhangryyall.com/ - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsDnSqVzTdWblNzI2ttvL0g

A D V E R T I S E M E N T

#### Ronzo

Ok, folks... making these pies tonight. The dough is formed and it looks and feels pretty dang good.
Fuggheddabowdit!

~ Ron

Former NY'er living in Texas
https://imhangryyall.com/ - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsDnSqVzTdWblNzI2ttvL0g

#### Ronzo

ok, pies came off the stone a little flat and dense. Tasted a little flat too. I followed the formula exactly as stated above, including the VWG. I think next time I might do half high gluten and half white whole wheat.
Fuggheddabowdit!

~ Ron

Former NY'er living in Texas
https://imhangryyall.com/ - https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsDnSqVzTdWblNzI2ttvL0g

#### Pizzalogy

i just made this recipe only i used regular whole wheat flour, not the white wheat. i also substituted 3 tablespoons of orange juice for 3 tablespoons of the water. the dough was a little bit more difficult to stretch but with a little persistence i managed to get it pretty thin. i thought the crust actually tasted better than the whole white wheat. so this recipe can be used interchangeably with regular whole wheat flour.

#### dwighttsharpe

#33
Pete-zza,

Hi. I must be missing something in regards to the weight of the water(and hence, hydration) in the formula. It is my experience that the weight of water, in ounces, should be marginally higher than the fluid ounces?

In short, doesn't 10 fl oz of water weigh 10.375 oz, or 294.13 grams?

http://www.pastryitems.com/book_of_yields.htm

"...1 cup, by definition, holds 8 fluid ounces. But 1 cup of water actually weights 8.3 ounces..."
Dwight

#### Pete-zza

dwighttsharpe,

You are essentially correct. If you use the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ and select Water from the pull-down menu, you will see that 8 fluid ounces weighs 8.345 oz. and that 10 fluid ounces (1.25 c.) weighs 10.432 oz. Those are the technically correct values. However, if someone does not measure out water in a measuring cup with the measuring cup on a flat surface and viewing the lower meniscus at eye level, there is no way of knowing for sure how much water is actually in the measuring cup. Most people just hold the measuring cup in their hand and eyeball the water level in the measuring cup, usually looking down at the measuring cup from above. So, in my case, when I converted the volume measurement recipe to a baker's percent version, I just filled my glass Pyrex measuring cup to 10 fluid ounces as I imagine most people would do it, and then weighed the water. Often, in similar situations where I am converting a volume recipe to a baker's percent version, I will just use 8.2 ounces as the weight of a cup of water. I came up with that value by repeatedly filling up a one-cup Pyrex measuring cup with water to the one-cup marking and then weighing the water on a scale. Someone using a different size or type or shape of measuring cup might get different values.

Peter

A D V E R T I S E M E N T

#### izzi

Has anyone gotten close to a great recipe with white whole wheat? or is it better to just use whole wheat?

Thanks
just starting out

#### charbo

izzi,

There is hard white wheat and there is hard red wheat.  If you're in the USA and looking at a bag that just says whole wheat, it's probably hard red wheat.  If you're in the USA and the bag says hard white whole wheat and does not say spring, or northern, or Montana, it's probably mostly winter wheat and may have a little less protein than the commonly available red whole wheat.  Less protein means you will need less water, unless you add gluten.  I think some of the mills try to produce a finer grind with white wheat.

I originally thought white wheat, whether spring or winter, would be better for pizza because the milder flavor would allow the toppings to be more assertive.  However, I found that I like crust so much that I prefer the slightly bolder flavor of red wheat.  Whole wheat flour freshness is more important than color.

#### izzi

charbo-

Sorry I should have been more specific.  I am trying to use KA White Whole Wheat for a Neo-Neapolitan "type" pizza.  I saw your recipe but it was from awhile ago and you mentioned later you would have done things differently.  Any tips/help would be great.  Thanks

iz

#### charbo

Assuming 100% winter whole wheat, I would use about 83% hydration.   VWG and sugar are optional; I don't use them.  I would use at least 1.4% salt and about 3% oil.  Yeast would be around .5% (less if refrigerating the dough).  I would use a biga or levain, because moderate acidity will strengthen gluten.  A salted soaker is optional.  Use refined flour on the bench, because it absorbs water more quickly than WW.  If scheduling permits, use room-temp fermentation and incorporate several sets of stretch-and-folds.  However, don't fold within 2 hours of shaping (longer in a cool kitchen).  Shape with a light hand.

#### izzi

I know this is alot of questions but how would the recipe change with a little vwg and sugar in it as far as hydration goes?  Is there a reason you moved away from the gluten and sugar which was in the first recipe?  Thanks

iz

A D V E R T I S E M E N T