Author Topic: My take on Villa's 100% whole wheat. (Read 9937 times)

barryvabeach · « **on:** January 20, 2015, 07:26:45 AM »

I followed Villa's posts on 100% whole wheat, and have been making some very slight mods for a while now, so I thought I would write it up.

Using his preferment approach, and using 250 grams of flour per pie and making a dough of 2 pies, the night before I make a preferment of 200 grams flour, 160 grams water and 1/32 tsp yeast. Just mix till the flour is moist, cover and leave on the counter.

The next morning, I add 328 grams water to the preferment and mix with a hand held danish dough hook until dissolved, then add the yeast , 1/16 tsp, then 400 grams of of flour, 7 grams of salt and 1/16 tsp of yeast. I then mix either by hand or by machine for a few minutes. It then stays in a bowl on the counter from around 9 am til around 2 or 3 pm, with a stretch and fold when I think about it - say 2 to 4 times. Usually in goes in the fridge around 3 and comes out around 4:30 to be baked around 6:30, though all the times are pretty flexible.

I take it out from the fridge, on put it on a marble top, with either no bench flour, or at most a half teaspoon. I just stretch it a little, then pick it up and stretch it a little and place it down. Since there is no bench flour, it can't retract. After a few times of stretching, it get it to about 10 to 12 inch diameter and stop and let it rest while I get the toppings ready. Five minutes later, when I go to pick it up to put on the peel ( a DIY super peel ) it is very easy to stretch it to 14 inches, which is the size of the peel. If I let it site on the marble top too long, say 10 or 15 minutes, it stretches so easily, it is hard to pick it up without getting it way too big for the peel.

When I make it with 100% home milled winter white, my friends at work have trouble telling it from a regular white flour in terms of taste. Another variation is 60% winter white and 40 % spring red. One of my coworkers just had some yesterday and says she can't stand whole wheat, but loves the flavor of that crust.
Baking in the BS is usually 2 to 2 1/2 minutes, loaded at a lower stone temp of around 650.

With 250 grams of flour for a pie on the BS, that makes for a paper thin crust if you go for a 14 inch pie, so I am thinking of increasing it slightly in the future.

Jersey Pie Boy · « **Reply #1 on:** January 20, 2015, 09:01:53 AM »

Thanks Barry...So a couple of questions

You mention 250 gms flour per pie ..but between the poolish and final dough , I'm seeing 600 gms total flour (or I'm not quite following, always a good possibility)

Then:

then add the yeast , 1/16 tsp, then 400 grams of of flour, 7 grams of salt and 1/16 tsp of yeast.

So do you add 1/16 tsp yeast twice ..or is that a hiccup?

What is the temperature of the water in the poolish and the final.? ..and what is the room temperature that goes with the yeast quantity you're using?

I know you mill your own wheat, but for those of us who don't, do you think using KA white whole wheat...and for your second option, mixing the white whole wheat with regular whole wheat flour, would come close?

That's such a fast bake on the BS, especially at that temperature...closer in time to an NP than an NY..What is the texture like of your finished pies..are they soft and chewy? In that amount of time, is there some crunch, or mainly soft?

Very interesting that it doesn't taste whole-wheat-ish..I love ww myself. eat a ton of it, but not on pies...and I know that for others here at home , it'll be a (very!) hard sell. So this recipe may do the trick!

Lotta questions, I know...Sorry

But thank you!

barryvabeach · « **Reply #2 on:** January 20, 2015, 06:36:59 PM »

When I do recipes, I usually do a Chart, with different columns for the diff quantities ( 1 pie, 2 pie, etc, ) and I read off the different columns. Then double counted the yeast the second time

2 pies, preferment night before
100 grams flour ( either 100 of white, or 60 W, 40 R for a more whole wheaty taste )
160 grams water room temp
1/32 yeast.

Next Morning
All preferment
800 Grams flour ( either all WWW or 60 / 40 split )
656 water room temp
14 grams salt
1/8 tsp yeast.

I have not used store bought flour all that much, but IIRC, it needs a bit more water than home milled, which may explain why Villa Roma started with even a higher hydration.
I don't use bench flour because I don't like adding extra flour, and it works better without the bench flour. Sticking to the bench helps keep it from retracting. Once it relaxes at that size it is very easy to stretch it paper thin.

The bottom is not crunchy, but the crust is, and it is pretty airy, for WW. This is a white pizza, but the appearance of the crust is the same. It is in a 16 inch pie pan.

Jersey Pie Boy · « **Reply #3 on:** January 20, 2015, 10:25:45 PM »

Thanks Barry--I appreciate the clarifications

ndg · « **Reply #4 on:** January 22, 2015, 01:59:45 PM »

Great post - excited try WW dough on my blackstone tmrw night! I plan on starting my preferment tonight at 6:00pm . . . but still kinda confused about how I use my ischia sourdough instead of the IDY for the preferment & next morning steps? I plan on researching a little more (hopefully it clicks) but please let me know if you guys have tips/advice . . or better yet, write a modified recipe!

I want to duplicate this exact volume for 2 pies.

barryvabeach · « **Reply #5 on:** January 22, 2015, 09:16:46 PM »

Can't help with a recipe, but keep notes of what you do, and post your results, that will give some data points to adjust on the next pie.

ndg · « **Reply #6 on:** February 01, 2015, 08:11:57 AM »

So I got delayed but made prefer last night . . . how can u tell if your 1/32 tsp (aka a Smidgen) of IDY is accurate? i am not buying special spoons. yikes that is a small amount! About to add the pref with the rest of the ingredients now, so i see i and add another 1/8 tsp IDY. From what I have read 1/8 tsp (pinch) is the amount of IDY you can pinch between your finger and thumb. This one seems a little easier.

ndg · « **Reply #7 on:** February 02, 2015, 09:24:59 AM »

Made 3 amazing WHOLE WHEAT super bowl pizzas last night using @barryvabeach version of villa roma's Whole Wheat Dough! NOTE: I used all King Arthur White Whole Wheat Flour but added about a cup or so of Caputo 00 Flour as well, hoping to prepare it for the 800F blackstone. My sauce was can of Cento run through hand blender w/pinch of orgeno/basil/evoo/garlic powder/onion powder. We went with (1) classic marg, (1) jalapeno/pep/calabrian peppers w/ oil, (1) hawiian pizza w/ pineapple/ham/red pepper flakes.

Now I am really torn because this pizza was amazing and has many benefits over the traditional neo dough I have been making. Compared to my Neo Dough, this Whole Wheat dough was little easier because didnt have to feed/prepare/use my ischica sourdough, didnt have to do 48 hour ferment in special cooler at 65F, this has more nutrition.

ndg · « **Reply #8 on:** February 02, 2015, 09:29:55 AM »

Also, I used Barrys exact recipe below . . should have paid more attention as I made the pref the night before, becase it made 6 dough balls - not 2!! I threw the other 3 in the freezer in a bag with some evoo in it . . think it will be ok after a thaw?

2 pies, preferment night before
100 grams flour ( either 100 of white, or 60 W, 40 R for a more whole wheaty taste )
160 grams water room temp
1/32 yeast.

Next Morning
All preferment
800 Grams flour ( either all WWW or 60 / 40 split )
656 water room temp
14 grams salt
1/8 tsp yeast.

Here is pic of my cook on the blackstone.

barryvabeach · « **Reply #9 on:** February 03, 2015, 06:42:28 PM »

Pies look great, though I am going to increase the amount of dough per pie to get a larger pie. When your read about the health benefits of whole wheat it is hard to go back to white flour

Hate to say it, but I looked at the recipe, and somehow I got it mixed up again.

One more time, for four pies ( of 250 grams of flour per pie )

Preferment
200 Grams Whole Wheat Flour ( 120 W, 80 Red, if the red flavor is too strong, use less Red )
160 Grams Water
1/32 tsp yeast

Next morning
All Preferment
800 Grams Whole Wheat Flour ( 480 W 320 Red )
656 Grams Water
14 Grams Salt
1/8 IDY

And yes, I have the tiny spoons marked in smidge, etc, and I just figured out how they convert to 1/16, 1/32 etc. One option is to take a piece of wax paper, and measure out the using the smallest teaspoon you have ( say 1/4 ), then shake the paper till the yeast is more or less evenly distributed into a circle, then cut the circle in half, and use half if you needed 1/8 , and keep the other half for the next session. You really can't get but so precise with the smaller spoons anyway.

ndg · « **Reply #10 on:** February 05, 2015, 10:05:51 AM »

Thanks Barry . . the wax paper method is interesting for sure. Still looking to incorporate my sourdough to your recipe, but I need to research more I think.

Have you froze this dough before? If so, how did the pizza taste after thaw compared to fresh?

barryvabeach · « **Reply #11 on:** February 05, 2015, 08:27:10 PM »

I freeze it all the time, and it still comes out fine. I go back and forth with 100% white whole wheat and a mix of some red whole wheat, so I label it when it goes in the freezer. I usually take it out a day or so before and put it in the fridge to defrost, then leave it on the counter for a few hours before I bake it.

misterschu · « **Reply #12 on:** May 21, 2015, 10:31:24 PM »

Barry, what mill do you use? How would you say the fineness of your flour is versus commercial whole wheat and commercial white flours? I just got my own mill, and used home ground flour for the first time. I only have hard red right now, but plan to pick up some more white and red soon. How does the texture compare between the white and red flour? Have you tried sifting out the bran or germ?

barryvabeach · « **Reply #13 on:** May 23, 2015, 10:01:26 PM »

I have a few mills. I have the All Grain, a GrindAll, and a few Lee Household Mills. I usually use the Lee, it can be set for extremely fine flour. I have never bought 00, but I assume it is similar to what comes out of the Lee. The flour is every bit as fine as commercial flour. I wish there was an easy way to tell how fine it is ground, but I don't think there is. I usually have Red Spring Hard wheat, and Winter white hard wheat, and the Red has a slightly higher protein content than the red. My main reason for using one over the other, or in picking a blend, is the flavor profile. When I want a strong whole wheat flavor I use all red, if I don't need that flavor boost, I go with white whole wheat or a blend. I am playing with sourdough starters , so I am using the WWW more regularly, for my tastes, the red overwhelmed the starter in pizza, though in bread it was fine. I don't sift out anything. I did try sifting a few times - I read somewhere that you got a lighter loaf of bread by doing that, even if you tossed the remains back in the dough, but I never noticed much of a difference, so I don't sift. I started milling for the health reasons, so I want all the berry in the pizza or bread. What kind of mill do you have?

charbo · « **Reply #14 on:** May 24, 2015, 02:41:18 PM »

I agree with Barry on red and white whole wheat. I think red is too assertive for pizza and competes with the other flavors. Red or white is good for other breads. I prefer hard red for sourdough pancakes.

I use a Retsel Mil-Rite.

You can achieve a finer granulation with a home mill using hard winter wheat, rather than hard spring wheat. If you have one of the cheaper mills, it may be worthwhile to sieve out the coarser particles and re-mill them. However, you don't have to have a super-fine flour to make a good bread. For a while, I was removing some of the bran for more lightness, but it's simpler to just add some refined flour. I have a lot of test sieves and strainers, but I mainly use them just for maize now.

David Esq. · « **Reply #15 on:** May 24, 2015, 03:39:55 PM »

I use a komo mill. No home mill makes flour as soft as all purpose and certainly not as fine as 00. The question is whether you want your flour so highly processed. If so, you need to buy it commercially processed.

corkd · « **Reply #16 on:** May 24, 2015, 08:44:33 PM »

All these pies look excellent!
Here's my latest, using a locally milled NYS WW bread flour. 98% whole grain (I used a little organic unbleached bread flour when mixing the final dough; ishcia starter(THANKS BARRY!!!) tartine-ish workflow. (100g each flour + water + 30g active starter, proofed over nite; then combine salt + balance of flour + water; several stretch & folds)
About 85% HR..3%salt.... Baked in a 2stone grill setup, <3min.
Very tender crust, intense nutty flavor is better a bit more heavily topped.
This one is tomato, garlic, pickled cherry peps, hot sopressata, black olive, fresh& regular mozzarella...

barryvabeach · « **Reply #17 on:** May 25, 2015, 08:08:33 AM »

Nice looking pie, what temp is the stone in the 2stone at launch?

corkd · « **Reply #18 on:** May 25, 2015, 09:14:01 AM »

Quote from: barryvabeach on May 25, 2015, 08:08:33 AM

Nice looking pie, what temp is the stone in the 2stone at launch?

The stone temp was 725

misterschu · « **Reply #19 on:** May 26, 2015, 12:52:26 PM »

I use a L'equip vitalmill, got off craigslist for $50. From what I've read the Lee's do produce finer flour, and I'd like to upgrade to one if I can find one for the right price. What I've noticed though is that commercial whole wheat flour seems to have very coarse bran in it, while my mill seems to evenly grind the endosperm, germ and bran.

I just bought 25# of hard red and 6# hard white over the weekend. Finding wheat at a good price isn't too easy in NYC, got those from an LDS home storage center.

What type of sieves should I buy to filter out the bran/germ if I want to try for a white flour?