Whole Wheat for NY thin crust style?

Started by Shawn W, July 12, 2015, 08:43:24 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.


Quote from: Jersey Pie Boy on July 14, 2015, 06:23:27 AM
(I do love non-whole wheat bread..it has such a more airy , lighter, and let's face it, just plain more delicious and better texture and taste..but there is a noticeable waistline difference. I'm very aware that there's one one small letter that can change Jersey Pie Boy, into Jersey Pig Boy)
Are you sure about the waistline thing?  I did a quick search on the fatsecret website, comparing white and wheat bread in various brands.  I'm finding that the wheat bread contains more calories.  Sometimes 40 to 60 calories more per two slices. 
Excessive consumption of pizza made from any flour will expand the waistline.  For consumption in moderation, I'm sticking with white flour.  :chef:

David Esq.

Try eating loaf of wonder. Then try a loaf of whole wheat. Remove the fiber and you can eat white bread all day long. Not so easy with the whole grain.


All calories are not created equal   you can't compare something made from white flour to something made from whole wheat by looking strictly at calories. Your  body processes the flour differently (and it's not based on quantity consumed although you probably could eat more of the white)


True.  But the point is, if you burn off all the calories you take in on a daily basis, in terms of your waistline, it doesn't matter what type of flour the pizza calories come from.  If you taking in more calories than you burn off, and you are eating pizza you don't really like that is made with whole wheat, what's the point? 
I suppose my point was whether you are losing, maintaining, or gaining weight, you can eat white pizza if that is what you really like.  I do it multiple times per week.  I lost a good bit of weight years ago, and generally did not eat wheat or whole grain bread.  I still don't.  The only time I ate wheat was when I was eating PB&J on store brand light bread everyday, and the company stopped making a white variety. 

David Esq.

You would be quite desperate to eat pizza you don't like.



I like whole wheat...

In the form of whiskey  :-D
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Jersey Pie Boy

David Esq.

Just had some 100% whole wheat sourdough waffles, fermenting since this morning. Can't abide the taste of whisky. But a Belgian waffle is another matter.

Shawn W

Quote from: David Esq. on July 14, 2015, 05:48:48 AM
Deb, what throwing away dough has to do with it is that you are too quick to declare failure.
Shawn, the bitter is almost certainly due to some combination of using red wheat or rancid wheat. Whole wheat goes bad relatively quickly.  Because of that, I bought a mill and grind my own as needed.
In fact, if I make 100% whole wheat sourdough waffles, I get no bitterness at all.
Darn, I just bought that bag .... but it was just store brand. I see Caputo further down in the responses. Robin Hood will probably be as good as I can find in my small town, but I will pick up something better when I get to the city. I admire your enthusiam ...  I think my inlaws still have a flour grinder I could try ... but in reality I'm probably not quite there yet  ;)

Shawn W

Quote from: David Esq. on July 14, 2015, 07:52:30 AM
Theory is not what I'm after. I don't t think I suggested 100% whole wheat would make a good pizza. But 30-50%? It only makes the pizza taste better. Just like a longer ferment.
I made sourdough bagels for a couple years, 50%ww, 50% unbleached white. Loved 'em.

So, my wife asked me to try because she avoids all flour in her diet but will eat some whole wheat, but I think I can sell her on 50/50.


Shawn W

Quote from: David Esq. on July 14, 2015, 08:10:46 AM
Shawn, try the formula with 50% whole wheat and 50% Caputo and 65% hydration.  Mix for a few minutes, rest, knead for 3-5 minutes, rest and one more knead. Ball and stick in the fridge.   If you want to go the extra mile, mix the flour and water by itself and let it sit for 30-60 minutes and then knead in the rest of the ingredients, rest, knead, rest, knead and ball.
right, I didn't mention the mix method in the base recipe I used. I normally use a KA stand mixer, mix just until a ball has formed, rest 15 minutes, then knead until smooth. How would your method differ in results? I was thinking to try attempt number two, just changing the flour (and not beating the crap out of it by deciding from appearance it needed more water) before I changed any other variables.

Shawn W

Quote from: mitchjg on July 14, 2015, 09:31:59 AM

In reading this thread, I can see that you came here seeking to improve your 100% whole wheat pizza results.  It appears that you want to improve the texture and you want to improve the flavor (remove bitterness).

Assuming you want whole wheat in your pizza (for whatever reason floats your boat), then please do not assume that it will be the same, in flavor or texture, as a pizza made without whole wheat.  By going to 50% WW, You are eliminating a big chunk of the thing that was bothering you - so it will probably will please you more or displease you less.  It will be different.  Whether or not that pleases you is up to you.  The only way they will be the same (comparing to the pies you made without whole wheat) is if they are the same.  If you do not notice a difference, I am not sure why you would be bothering (unless it is for a difference you are seeking besides flavor and texture).

Sure, moving from 100% whole wheat to 50% whole wheat will change the result and change the texture you did not like (improve).  Using freshly ground and white whole wheat and other things may improve it further.  Starting from a base of 100% whole wheat and diluting the % whole wheat and "better" whole wheat will improve the texture since you are phasing out and improving the remaining whole wheat.  If your reach the point where it is pleasing you but it is still in there, great. 

Others here are telling you that, using a starting point of no whole wheat, adding whole wheat is a negative for taste and texture.  You, starting with 100% whole wheat will likely experience an improvement as you reduce it.

David believes he can help you get you to some place that is pleasing for you (or some level you want to settle with) with whole wheat in the pie.  Good luck.
Thanks so much for your excellent response and time spent! As noted above in my responses made earlier, just a short while ago, my wife asked me to try 100% ww for dietary reasons, and, I personally liked 50/50 for my sourdough bagels.

What I wasn't clear about in my initial post was wondering about the reason for the texture issue. Was it the overmix/wrong hydration or is that's just how it is with WW? I'm not experienced at baking aside from diving deep and figuring out how to make great sourdough bagels and making the NY pie recipe I posted above each with consistent results for over a year. That's it. Because of the overmix on this attempt I just sort of mentally wrote off attempt #1 and will see how attempt #2 goes. Sorry I wasn't more clear. I come to the temple of pizza a humble beggar, asking for help on a topic I have merely borrowed knowledge on, not learned.

Quote from: mitchjg on July 14, 2015, 09:31:59 AM
Shifting gears, I can see you are baking pies in your Kamado grill.  You are getting a (somewhat surprisingly) even bake, top vs. bottom.  Quite unusual.  The problem with trying to make pizza in a Kamado grill is getting sufficient top heat.  It looks like you are offsetting the lack of top heat by cutting back on bottom heat with the use of a screen.

Unless your home oven is a problem for some reason, I would suggest you consider ditching using the Kamado.  You can read here in the forum about countless attempts to use one.  Everyone encounters the balancing issue because that it is how the grills are made (I have one, BTW).  They are not made for pizza with balanced heat generation.  Further, the amount of fuel you end up using is really, really high.  It is a great tool, just not a tool that is particularly compatible with good pizza.

If you use your home oven, with a decent pizza stone, you will probably find you can get can much better results than with the Kamado.  You are cooking in the 500s anyway and most ovens can achieve 500 or more.

Give it a try!
I may be a pizza noob, but this I can speak to. I made my base recipe for over a year in the oven with unbleached white flour. This was my first attempt at a ww version AND this recipe in my Big Steel Keg. It is a double wall steel insulated kamado. It has twice the thermal efficiency of a BGE. I can hold my hand on the exterior when it is registering 800ºF. It's very efficient and I don't use much lump at all

I have cooked perhaps 20 pizzas in it across maybe a dozen cooks and I have gotten pretty consistent even top/bottom results. The secret for me, at least in my keg is pushing the pie as high into the dome as possible. In the keg there is a CI main grate, then an upper grate having about a 6-7" stem that inserts on one side or the the other of the CI grate. I put the 16" screen on the top grate which would have only left perhaps .75"clearance  around the screen circumference due to the internal dome tapering.

My vents were not even half open for this 550ºF cook so there should be pretty little drying effect due to air movement. I did not add any smoke wood. I did use a BGE large stone, but you can't see it in my pics. It is on the CI main grate 6-7" below the upper grate where I placed my screen. I let my keg hold that temp for over an hour (and the stone heat up) before cooking my pies.

Shawn W

Quote from: TXCraig1 on July 14, 2015, 06:14:10 PM
I like whole wheat...

In the form of whiskey  :-D
I expected some sort of NY WW discrimination because my topic was brown. How appropriate it came from TEXAS Craig.  :-D

JK man, no worries, I really get it. That was awesome!  :-D

David Esq.

Shawn, I can't really speak to how different mixing methods impact the dough. I've only mixed by hand for no important reason. 

The reason 100% wheat usually fails to please is because it is exceedingly difficult to develop gluten when the bits of bran are cutting the strands at every turn. Second, whole wheat has flavor and too much of a flavor can be too much of a good thing. Third, there is more to chew on with the bran included.

At 50/50 you will enjoy the outcome and improve the nutrient profile over a 100% refined white flour formula.

One way to minimize the texture problem associated with whole wheat is to mix the flour and water and let it sit out 12-24 hours before adding the salt and yeast/starter.  This may, however, bring out more flavor. Whether that is a good thing or not depends on your taste. To make it easier to mix, you could soak the whole wheat portion with an equal portion of the water, let it sit overnight, then add the salt on top of the whole wheat mass. Add the yeast to the remaining water, and mix with the white flour. Rest 15 minutes and then combine the two doughs by pinching and folding them together several times. Rest, do some stretch and folds and let it bulk ferment and rise as usual.

Jersey Pie Boy


What David is suggesting here is a type of poolish, though I'm thinking maybe it's not officially called that since there's no yeast. But who needs an official? If it works, it works.

But also, there's this. Most posts here (including mine, of course)  have been comparing WW to white flour pizza. But seeing your original post, I note that you want to make a pizza that your wife will enjoy, that's made of whole wheat..

There've been lots of posts here about "white whole wheat" and that's fine, but maybe she'd like a whole wheat pizza that tastes like a whole wheat pizza. So why not?

Perhaps part of the issue is that this post is on the NY thread. I just don't believe that you can consider a WW pizza to be an NY pie. It ain't happening. Fuhgeddaboudit. It's a specialty pie. And you can read about it in the proper category here in  Specialty Grain Pizzas.

I've made the Villa Roma pie with help from barryvabeach and as whole wheat pizzas go, I though it was very good. Still do. It's got a poolish, it's got a lot of hydration and it needs it. I don't mill my own flour, just use good old KAWW or sometimes even store-brand WW. To me it's tougher to work with, can't be successfully knuckle-stretched, and eats a lot heavier (though not a brick. It does have a very good flavor, and takes toppings nicely. It's brown, it's whole grain, it makes absolutely no apologies.  It's certainly not my go-to, or favorite pie, but it's a nice change. I consider it more a substitute for a sandwich on WW bread than I do a treat, but so what? It works just fine. And the dough can be frozen for at least a couple of weeks.

Anyway, thought it worth mentioning.


David Esq.

For better or for worse, this sub-forum is described as follows:

"New York Style
Also known as Neapolitan-American style. Dough is stretched and/or tossed. Pizza has a bready rim that tapers down to a thin, foldable center."

That may be achieved with 50% whole wheat and 50% all purpose flour. 

There may actually be a need, for reasons best expressed by those who feel it, for a more restrictive description such as "made with 100% highly refined flour". 

Personally, I think the added restrictive description would be silly. 

I would say the same thing about Neapolitan style pizza. No, it isn't VPN but a very soft pizza baked in a very high temperature oven, can be accomplished with 50% whole wheat flour as well.  (I note that that sub forum reads: "Mirrors the style of pizza popularized in Naples using 00 flour, few toppings, and very-high temperature ovens."  And yet, many many pies are written about in that thread using AP flour).


There have been innumerable threads and posts with people discussing what is "real" NY Style pizza.

Pizza with whole wheat may be good pizza. And, we have an entire area titled "Specialty-Grain Pizzas" subtitled "Whole-wheat and multi-grain pizzas."

To me, by analogy, it does not quack like a duck, it does not look like a duck, it does not taste like a duck, etc. - it ain't a duck - It may be pizza, it may be good pizza, it is not NY Style Pizzza.  No one made it in NY from the birth of the pizza in NY and for decades beyond.  Maybe someone in NY sells pizza with whole wheat now - I don't know.

What I do know is that trying to fold it in to the mainstream of NY Pizza in this forum will cause confusion for newbies and contention for many with little to zero good coming out of it.

The last rumble about "what is NY Pizza" was all about sourdough starter - waste of energy.  Do we really need to this to be a debate?


"We hate math," says 4 in 10 – a majority of Americans


I sympathize with what Mitch and Bill are saying about pizza style. I also no not ever recall seeing or reading about a classic NY style with whole wheat flour, although someone out there somewhere who specializes in the NY style may be sneaking a bit of whole wheat flour into the dough to give the crust a bit more flavor. To avoid confusion, I am moving this thread to the Specialty-Grain Pizzas board. Thanks for the shove.



The bready rim was the part of the whole wheat pizza I made that I liked the least.
It was easily deformable, had no taste or chew, kind of like store bought wheat bread crust.

I think that if I made another whole wheat crust, I would go with Chicago thin.
That way, there would be no mealy rim, and all of the crust would have some sauce, cheese, toppings, which would help minimize any off flavor or texture.


I know it isn't a NY style pizza using another flour and whole wheat flour but I thought Peter Reinhart's Country Pizza dough was a good one for a pizza.  I didn't taste any bitterness in the crust.  Peter set forth a formulation at Reply 23 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13037.msg127597#msg127597  This was the thread for the modified Reinhart Country Dough.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13320.msg131749#msg131749

dmaxdmax also posted about using a batch of Reinharts's Classic Dough with replacing 25% bread flour with an equal amount of Supersprout at Reply 15 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13509.msg134411#msg134411  This is dmaxdmax's thread.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13524.msg134416#msg134416  I think his pizza looked good. 

I also thought Sal's whole wheat dough worked well at Reply 334 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17632.msg178727#msg178727 

I think I have tried whole wheat flour along with another flour other places here on the forum but can't remember where.