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Offline HansB

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Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2021, 07:17:41 PM »
Here's one I baked today with a 96 hour CF (39°) with 2 hour RTF ball using 1% IDY. I could have used it one or two days ago. Tomorrows with have been 120 hours.
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Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2021, 07:23:46 PM »
First day turned out well!
It sure did. Perhaps it’s time you come clean with the rest of your formula and process. Just kidding but it looks excellent!
-Tony

Offline Papa T

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Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2021, 08:30:05 PM »
See attached pic.  I usually use the ADY (left).  Occasionally, the blue one (IDY) gets purchased and it really DOES work fast (too fast?).  My reason for using ADY: combination of what I usually buy and the blue one working TOO fast.

But I'm open to recommendations/suggestions.

Note, this advice is coming from a guy that uses beer instead of water with his SAF Red IDY to make emergency dough in an hour, so your mileage may vary, LOL.

If all you or anyone have ever used for IDY is the Fleischmann's (or Red Star's) Rapid Rise (or Fast Acting) Yeast, that may explain issues that you and others may have had with "instant yeast." There are two kinds of "instant" yeast. The type sold to commercial bakers, and the type sold to impatient home bakers. They behave different.

While those sold to home bakers are instant yeasts, as is IDY labeled for "Bread Machines," you won't find many commercial bakers or pizzerias using either rapid rise or bread machine IDY. I doubt any. It's produced in such a way as to give home bread bakers, especially those home bakers that use a bread machine, really fast rising dough as new home bread bakers and those with bread machines are an impatient bunch.

Fleischmann's Rapid Rise is not going to play nice with CF dough. FYI, Fleischmann's also sells an IDY that isn't "Rapid Rise" and it's simply called 'Fleischmann's Instant Yeast," but it's unlikely you'll ever find it in the grocery store. Just like you won't find SAF Red IDY there either. I've only seen those sold in one pound or larger packages. I've never seen Fleischmann's Rapid Rise or Bread Machine yeast sold in one pound packages, only those 7 gram grocery store packs. For what it's worth.

Basically, IMO, if any instant yeast is sold in those little 7 gram foil packs in the grocery store, and that same brand and type is not sold in one pound or larger packages online, perhaps that's a clue not to use that IDY for pizza dough when doing CF. The IDY that commercial bakers use is sold in packages much larger than 7 grams, and it behaves like ADY in rise and fermentation qualities, unlike the fast acting yeasts sold to home bakers in little foil packets. I'm not saying don't use rapid rise or bread machine yeasts as they have a purpose, but making CF pizza dough really isn't one of them.

If you're on speaking terms with any bakeries or pizzarias in your area, perhaps you could ask them for a couple tablespoons of IDY to give "real" IDY a try. You'll find it's different than the "rapid rise" type IDY sold in little foil packets in grocery stores. If you can't find any to donate a bit to you, if you will direct message me a mailing address, I'll send you an ounce of SAF Red so you can give it a try before buying a larger package so you can see if it works for you.
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Everything sounds better in latin.
Omnis pizza 'est bonum.
Every pizza is good.

Making good pizza is not that hard, unless we choose to make it that way.

The best pizza you'll ever make for someone is making the one they ask for instead of making it the way we think it should be made.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2021, 09:06:43 PM »
Tim,

I agree that there can be a fair amount of confusion surrounding different brands of IDY. However, I thought that you might find these posts of interest.

Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45785.msg458924#msg458924 (see, also, the opening post)

Reply 13 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10707.msg95811#msg95811

As a relatively new member of the forum, you might also be interested to know that I aggregated a lot of items relating to yeast in the thread at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40212.msg401012#msg401012

Peter

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2021, 09:33:09 PM »
This is great info..I didn't know those brand differences at all. But with my usage, a little brick of red SAF lasts a really, really long time.

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Offline Catcher

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Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #25 on: September 04, 2021, 10:03:50 AM »
The dough was great again on day 3, made a pizza 'bianco' with potato, garlic, cream cheese, pancetta and rosemary

Offline Papa T

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Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #26 on: September 04, 2021, 12:05:28 PM »
Tim,

I agree that there can be a fair amount of confusion surrounding different brands of IDY. However, I thought that you might find these posts of interest.

As a relatively new member of the forum, you might also be interested to know that I aggregated a lot of items relating to yeast in the thread at:

Peter

I was not aware of those older posts, as apparently many new members are not either, since questions about yeast are one of the most asked by folks new to the forum (right up there with CF issues). I've never had an ADY vs IDY question as I was using IDY long before ever joining the forum, so I never thought about searching for it to read what's been posted in the past. In my kitchen, years of baking have proved to me that commercial IDY rules over ADY for any and all yeast doughs.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to create a sticky thread in the Reference, Questions and Help section of the forum that deals solely with yeasts and what has been posted about them. New folks really don't know what to look for, or for that matter, even what to ask. Questions about yeast and CF get a lot of questions from new dough makers.

Professional bakers have been using Instant Dry Yeast instead of ADY for years without issue. Instant yeast with the qualifiers of "rapid rise," "fast acting," and "bread machine," are consumer branded instant yeasts to allow consumers to achieve what they want in a very short time frame. They are an amped up form of instant dry yeast to deliver fast and rapid results. The instant yeast used commercially on it's own isn't fast, it's just able to be used instantly instead of being proved.

Both commercial instant dry yeast and active dry yeast are the same creature. It's how that they are manufactured that makes them different. Instant dry yeast used in commercial dough operations is called instant because it can be used instantly and reliably without proving, hence, using it instantly as a dry ingredient. This is something that is always risky with ADY, since it is alive (active) versus instant yeast which is encapsulated in a state of hibernation until it gets wet. It doesn't suffer from the death rate found in active dry yeast, so it is ultra reliable and instantly usable.

Commercial IDY isn't a faster rising yeast, it's an easier to use yeast that can be used instantly. Both SAF Red and Fleischmann's Instant Dry Yeast are suitable for CF pizza dough, and available in one pound packages on Amazon for $8 or less. I buy SAF Red in 2-packs of one pound packages for $12 and keep them in the freezer. It's never failed me. If one is making CF pizza dough, staying away from any instant yeast that has the qualifiers of "rapid rise, "fast acting," or "bread machine" on the package label is wise.

This is why Tom Lehmann said commercial pizza operations should switch to instant dry yeast. If folks are going to make CF pizza dough and use an IDY that has the qualifiers of "rapid rise," "fast acting," or "bread machine" in them, then it's likely they will not be satisfied with the results. Consumers don't want longer fermentation times, they want it dough now. They are an impatient bunch. Those visiting this forum are looking for more than a bread or pizza dough ready in about an hour. Those kind of dough recipes are on here too, but that's not why most folks come visit the forum. They want to truly make better pizza reliably.

New pizza dough makers buying instant yeast at the grocery store in little foil packets is going to lead to frustration if they want to CF their dough. Find some commercial bakery/pizzeria IDY and skip the grocery store instant yeasts, and enjoy the results. Just like ADY in performance with virtually no risk of yeast failure, and ease use by adding directly to the dry ingredients without need to prove.
https://youtu.be/JF5-bnRy8F0?list=PLfP9Y8SqSygEN8z7a_p9tlgAmyg6BGPXM
Instagram: lightfuzer

Everything sounds better in latin.
Omnis pizza 'est bonum.
Every pizza is good.

Making good pizza is not that hard, unless we choose to make it that way.

The best pizza you'll ever make for someone is making the one they ask for instead of making it the way we think it should be made.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #27 on: September 04, 2021, 02:52:20 PM »
Tim,

Over the years, I have spent a lot of time trying to create threads and other tools to help the members with their pizza making. For an example of this, see Reply 4 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=48803.msg490049#msg490049

The thread in which Reply 4 appears is a sticky. You will notice that Reply 4 has a link to the thread that I cited to you in my last post, specifically, the one at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40212.msg401012#msg401012

That thread is also a sticky.

We also have a Pizza Glossary that members can use to learn about many of the things that go on on the forum, including information on yeasts. The forum's Pizza Glossary is very extensive. There is a pull-down menu under Resources to the Pizza Glossary. The link that will take users to the Pizza Glossary is:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html

If you look at the definitions for ADY, IDY and COMPRESSED YEAST, you will also see links in each of those descriptions to the aforementioned thread at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40212.msg401012#msg401012

I should add that there is also a sticky for the Pizza Glossary under Forum Info.

Members can also use the forum's search features. And to help them use those features, I created this thread:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3101.msg26282#msg26282

That thread is also a sticky.
 
Peter


Offline Pete-zza

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Offline Papa T

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Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #29 on: September 04, 2021, 07:54:01 PM »
Tim,

After my last post, I decided to do an Advance forum search of my own posts to see what I wrote in the past about the differences between yeast products sold at retail and those sold to and used by professionals.

All good information, and confirmation of what I've been saying. There is a lot of good information on this forum, and there is also a lot of information along the lines of tradition, anecdotal, conjecture, and maybe even some sorcery.

To me, the bottom line is that new pizza makers come here looking for guidance on making better pizza dough. Yeast comes up a lot. Folks buy grocery store instant yeast and are disappointed, so they stick with active dry. It's not easy to find on this forum that commercial instant yeast and grocery store instant yeast are not intended for the same audience and are not the same instant yeast. They have two different purposes in the baking world. If you want to make commercial style pizza dough and want to use instant yeast, you must buy commercial instant yeast, not grocery store brands.

Three strips of those 3-pack, 7 gram (1/4 ounce) foil yeast packets of any kind, nine packets total, will likely set you back between $7.50 and $9.00. Let's call it $8.00. That's $8 for 21 grams of yeast, either "instant" consumer types, or active dry.

One can buy a pound (454 grams) of commercial instant dry yeast or active dry yeast for about $8. That's equivalent to 64 of those 7 gram grocery store packets for the same price. If one looks past the folklore and traditions and looks at the food science, and is willing to step outside their comfort zone, using commercial grade instant dry yeast is a no-brainer.

Traditional NP pizza makers use cake yeast, but that's because of tradition, not because it has been proven to be better. It's still a baker's strain of Saccharomyces cerevisiae. The experienced ones know that they must adjust and increase the amount of cake yeasts each day as their cake yeast cache dies off over the week or two after acquisition. This is why a lot of commercial NP style pizza operations have switched to commercial IDY. It's consistent, predicable, ultra reliable, and folks eating it simply cannot tell the difference in the NP pizza dough whether cake or commercial IDY was used in making it.

But, tradition, folklore, and superstition are hard to overcome. It's no different than those that believe that Himalayan pink salt is nutritionally better than table salt. It's not, and the food science proves it. Literally, the micro or nano grams of other elements in the pink salt are simply of no value to the human body in the quantities consumed by humans. The salt is pink because it has more iron than traditional and sea salts, not because it's "healthier." Salt is salt. The "micronutrients" in them are immaterial since nobody can't consume enough of it without killing themselves to make the nutrients beneficial. However, pink salt marketing wants you to believe otherwise and that it's better for you. Pink salt selling for $10/lb is way more profitable than table salt at under $1/lb.

All baker's yeast is Saccharomyces cerevisiae. All brewer's yeast is Saccharomyces cerevisiae. However, they are different stains of Saccharomyces cerevisiae. The one for baking produces the yeasty essence we associate with bread, and the strain used for beer produces more alcoholic essence we associate with beer. We could use brewer's yeast for making bread, but probably wouldn't like the end result, so yes, the strains of Saccharomyces cerevisiae matter in that aspect, but not when it comes to baker's yeast.

I mention this because of the big debate of "different strains" of Saccharomyces cerevisiae in baker's yeast. I'm sure the two big yeast manufacturers have different "blood lines" of their baker's yeast Saccharomyces cerevisiae, but the differences are de minimis for baking use. Immaterial. If the strains were that far apart and didn't deliver that yeasty bread essence, they likely wouldn't succeed in the market place.

The instant yeast sold in little foil packets in the grocery store has additives to make it a one rise, or fast acting, kind of yeast. This appeals to the occasional home bread maker. It's not good for CF pizza dough at all. Commercial instant yeast behaves just like ADY since it doesn't have those additives found in grocery store bands of instant yeast. Commercial IDY is fine for more than one rise and CF and such. Grocery store instant yeast, not so much. The secretive and proprietary nature by yeast manufacturers of their baker's yeast is more likely about marketing than factual differences between their products and those from other manufacturers.

I believe that the folks coming to this forum are not looking to be casual pizza makers. All of us here know that we treat pizza more like a religion than a casual interest. We're not here because we're all once a month pizza-night bakers. We want to get really good and reliable at it. We want to experiment. We want to replicate great pizza from our past. With that said, the yeast manufacturers would much prefer that you spend $8 for 9 little foil packets of any yeast, than $8 for the equivalent of 64 of them in commercial one pound packages. They really don't care much about our home based religion, LOL.

There is a lot of food science research out on the internet from universities free for the taking, but it's not that easy to find. You need to know how and what to search for. If folks have difficulty searching this forum for answers to their yeast questions, they're likely not going to answer them searching for university food science research globally. And when they do find results on here, it runs across a wide spectrum of belief.

Like I mentioned in the beginning, there is a lot of good information on this forum, and there is also a lot of information along the lines of tradition, anecdotal, conjecture, and maybe even some sorcery. It's not that common on here to see a post with a link to a science or authoritative source to back it up, which is why Tom Lehmann is a legend. A new pizza maker isn't going to be able to cypher what to believe from the many posts, but they can rely on reading and listening to what Tom has said. The Dough Doctor was an appropriate moniker.

With that said, I'll toss this out there as a cut to the chase for those new folks.

Avoid grocery store "instant" yeast. Buy a pound of commercial instant dry yeast made by either SAF or Fleischmann's. It's about the same price as three strips of those grocery store yeast packets for 64 times a much. If you use Amazon, just add it to the cart on your next order or buy it at Costco, Sam's, or BJ's. Keep the commercial IDY in the freezer and dole it out to a smaller container to keep in the fridge based on how much you'd likely use over a couple months. Then use the same amount of commercial IDY as one would ADY in recipes, but don't prove it, just add it to the dry mix. Any dough recipe for bread or pizza dough that calls for ADY can use commercial IDY interchangeably. Again, just don't prove it when a recipe calling for ADY says to do that. It's absolutely not necessary with IDY.

The fact that cake, ADY, and consumer and commercial types of IDY are made by the big two yeast manufacturers is more about satisfying the market demand than the science behind baking demonstrably showing one is better than the other. If folks want cake yeast, they will sell you that. ADY? That too. IDY for bread dough in an hour? That too. IDY for commercial baking that is nearly foolproof? That too. It's about marketing, not science. Perhaps that's why it's "proprietary" information. There is really isn't much difference in the three types of yeast. Only how they are packaged for the different audience they are intended to satisfy.

So yeah, for home pizza and bread bakers new to yeast doughs that want to up their game, buy commercial IDY by SAF or Fleischmann's, use it like ADY if that was your past game. Just don't prove it and simply add it to the dry mix and never look back. It's easy, simple, and reliable.
Instagram: lightfuzer

Everything sounds better in latin.
Omnis pizza 'est bonum.
Every pizza is good.

Making good pizza is not that hard, unless we choose to make it that way.

The best pizza you'll ever make for someone is making the one they ask for instead of making it the way we think it should be made.

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2021, 08:25:26 PM »
Tim,

Thank you for taking the time to expand upon the differences between yeast products used by professionals and those sold at retail for use by home pizza makers. FYI, I just added a reference to your post at Reply 4 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=48803.msg490049#msg490049

I’d also like to commend you on the quality and clarity of your draftsmanship. That helps a lot.

Peter


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #31 on: September 05, 2021, 09:42:55 AM »
I don't know that it's accurate to say:

Quote
commercial instant yeast and grocery store instant yeast are not intended for the same audience and are not the same instant yeast.

I've never read or experienced anything that makes me think this is true.

I don't think this is accurate either:

Quote
The instant yeast sold in little foil packets in the grocery store has additives to make it a one rise, or fast acting, kind of yeast. This appeals to the occasional home bread maker. It's not good for CF pizza dough at all. Commercial instant yeast behaves just like ADY since it doesn't have those additives found in grocery store bands of instant yeast. Commercial IDY is fine for more than one rise and CF and such. Grocery store instant yeast, not so much.

You can see in the pics below that the ingredients in the retail and the commercial IDY are the same. I stand to be corrected if there is documented evidence to the contrary, but I think it's the same yeast in different packages. I've used both many times and never noticed any difference.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #32 on: September 05, 2021, 12:51:35 PM »
As I noted by the links in my last post, I had a hard time getting Fleischmann's to tell me the differences between their IDY products sold to professionals and their yeast products sold at retail in supermarkets although I was told that the IDY that Fleischmann's sold to professionals was not identical to their Rapid-Rise product sold at retail. It took me a fair amount of email cross-examination to get that out of them, and they wouldn't tell me anything more (Reply 7 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=900.msg8529;topicseen#msg8529).

I might add that the Fleischmann’s professional IDY uses the three letters on the package whereas the Rapid-Rise product does not use the three letters but instead has a comment that the product is an “instant yeast”. Maybe that is just a marketing ploy but maybe there is another reason to make the distinction.

To Craig’s point both the Fleischmann’s professional IDY and the retail Rapid-Rise instant dry yeast have the same ingredients.

In the case of Red Star, and as noted in Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45785.msg458924#msg458924, "Carol" at Red Star told me that the Red Star IDY that is in the small bottles in supermarkets was the same as that sold in the large one-pound bags of IDY. However, I was never able to confirm what she said. All I could find was the bread machine yeast such as shown at:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B002CIP40E/?tag=pmak-20, or

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00DVWWS7C/?tag=pmak-20

Peter


Offline HansB

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Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2021, 04:14:18 PM »
Here's the 120 hour, 1% IDY pie. It's a thin crust formula but I just opened it like a NY pizza.

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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2021, 07:46:06 PM »
Hans...to confirm, 1% rather than .1%, correct?

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Offline HansB

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Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2021, 10:48:57 PM »
Yes Bill, 1%.
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Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #36 on: September 06, 2021, 01:06:17 AM »
Thanks!

Offline Papa T

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Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #37 on: September 06, 2021, 05:11:09 AM »
I don't know that it's accurate to say:

I've never read or experienced anything that makes me think this is true.

I don't think this is accurate either:


Craig, you just like to argue. The ingredient list you posted means and proves absolutely nothing in this debate. Ingredient formulations are proprietary and they are not going to be revealed on the package in how they do their magic. It's only going to state what is required by law, and that is minimal at best. It's going to list yeast and some preserving/moderating agents. Ingredient list do not specify how the product "comes to life" when deployed. However, instructions on how to use them do offer a clue.

I know that there is nothing that I can respond with that will make you think otherwise since it seems that your mind is already made up. I'd suggest you contact the big two yeast manufacturers and ask them if they would recommend using their rapid/quick rise yeast products for double and/or cold fermentation, or their regular instant or active dry yeast.

They won't tell you anything about their "proprietary" formulations, but they should indicate that the rapid/quick rise products are a one-and-done type of instant yeast. The yeast is spent after about an hour doing its yeast thing, and will not satisfactorily allow a bulk rise, then be portioned for a second extended fermentation, whether at RT or CF. If you're lucky, they will also state that the rapid/quick rise yeast doesn't work well below 80F. For rapid/quick rise yeast to work as promised, water needs to be much more than tepid for the yeast to do its thing and it needs to stay very warm during the entire mixing and rising process. Put any dough made with rapid/quick rise yeast in the fridge the yeast will not do its job well.

The photos I've attached are for Red Star and Fleischmann’s rapid/quick rise yeasts. The package instructions on how to use them clearly state that when using them for conventional baking, to heat the liquids used to 120-130F. Anybody here on the forum routinely heat their liquids to 120F when making pizza dough for RT, let along CF? I'll wait.

Good luck doing a CF double rise with those rapid/quick rise yeasts. You'll also notice that commercial instant dry yeast (or ADY) doesn't have any instructions on the bulk package. That's because professional bakers know how to use yeast, and none of them in their right mind would use liquids that are 120F or warmer (or rapid/quick rise yeast for that matter) in conventional commercial baking. None of them.

Absolutely and positively, commercial IDY and grocery store rapid/quick rise yeasts are different. I've tested all three, ADY, commercial IDY, and rapid/quick yeast, making a batch of each using typical temperatures for making dough (75-95F), then a bulk rise, then portioned for a cold rise in the fridge. Both the ADY and commercial IDY worked as expected. The rapid/quick rise types just can't get it up very much, let alone a second time. The rapid/quick rise yeasts may be fine for an emergency dough, but as Lehmann has said, use 50% more commercial IDY, and 50% less sugar (if used) and you can do the same thing for emergency dough.

Grocery store rapid/quick rise instant yeast are absolutely and positively different from commercial IDY. Those new folks coming to this forum for advice would be misguided in being told to believe otherwise. G'day.
Instagram: lightfuzer

Everything sounds better in latin.
Omnis pizza 'est bonum.
Every pizza is good.

Making good pizza is not that hard, unless we choose to make it that way.

The best pizza you'll ever make for someone is making the one they ask for instead of making it the way we think it should be made.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #38 on: September 06, 2021, 09:49:22 AM »
Tim,

I don't think Craig is just arguing. The whole issue can be quite confusing. For example, if you look at the back of the label on the bottle of Red Star (Lesaffre) yeast that you showed in your last post, there are four different instructions, and a couple of them talk about yeast packets, which I find puzzling. And one of the instructions talks about using a small amount of the yeast (one-half teaspoon per cup of flour) and water at a temperature of 80F, albeit that is for a bread machine application. But I do agree that the products you showed are not intended for professionals.

Peter

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2021, 10:47:56 AM »
No, I'm not trying to be argumentative. If you can prove me wrong with confirmable facts - not opinion - I'll happily admit it.

Note that every IDY pic posted here lists the exact same 3 ingredients, and no, there is no FDA reg that allows a manufacturer to leave ingredients off the label because they consider them to be proprietary - or for any other reason. 

The only retail IDYs I can remember seeing with additional ingredients are Red Star Platinum Instant Sourdough Yeast Fleischmann's Pizza Crust Yeast. In the case of the latter, the additive (L-Cystine) is not to make it rise faster but rather to make the dough more extensible. It makes a 30 minute pizza dough not because of an additive or different yeast but rather because they call for 3% IDY in the recipe!

Quote
The yeast is spent after about an hour doing its yeast thing, and will not satisfactorily allow a bulk rise, then be portioned for a second extended fermentation, whether at RT or CF.

Quote
rapid/quick rise yeast doesn't work well below 80F.

Quote
Good luck doing a CF double rise with those rapid/quick rise yeasts.

There are literally thousands, if not 10's of thousands of posts here that prove those statements wrong.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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