A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Author Topic: IDY for variable cold ferment  (Read 1380 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline 9slicePie

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 501
Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2021, 10:49:06 AM »
Papa T,

so would you recommend the home pizza maker to use Fleischmann's ADY?

Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 28126
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Pizza is not bread.
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #41 on: September 06, 2021, 10:52:55 AM »
Tim,

I don't think Craig is just arguing. The whole issue can be quite confusing. For example, if you look at the back of the label on the bottle of Red Star (Lesaffre) yeast that you showed in your last post, there are four different instructions, and a couple of them talk about yeast packets, which I find puzzling. And one of the instructions talks about using a small amount of the yeast (one-half teaspoon per cup of flour) and water at a temperature of 80F, albeit that is for a bread machine application. But I do agree that the products you showed are not intended for professionals.

Peter

Peter - I think they mention yeast packets because it's a conversion factor. There are lots of recipes in cookbooks and on the internet that call for 1 packet of yeast.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline parallei

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3089
  • Location: Denver, CO
Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #42 on: September 06, 2021, 03:01:21 PM »
Just some anecdotal or observed info here. Albeit, only over years of experience as a home pizza maker. For a 24 to 72 hour CF and using 0.30 to 0.40 percent IDY, I find no appreciable difference between SAF Red Bag IDY, Fleischmann's Rapid Rise or Fleischmann's Bread Machine yeasts.

Offline Papa T

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 154
  • Location: Gainesville, Florida
  • When the moon hits your eye...
Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #43 on: September 06, 2021, 06:02:47 PM »
I know anything that I post regarding my own research on the actual uses and differences between active dry yeast, rapid/quick/fast dry yeast sold in grocery stores, and commercial instant yeast like SAF Red, is going to come across as biased, so no more beating that dead horse.

I did a quick Google search on the subject and came up with this link from Serious Eats. It was published on April 20, 2020. Take it or leave it as anyone wishes. Serious Eats is not necessarily a scientifically centric entity as they are known mostly for their food and kitchen related editorial content, but they do a lot of testing and work hand in hand with editorial teams at major publications and internet publishers.

While they are not The National Science Foundation, Serious Eats is well respected in their writing, testing, and methodology. The article in the link below is fairly short, and shows what Serious Eats discovered about the differences between the different types of yeast. According to them, they also conclude that quick/fast/rapid rise yeasts are not good for extended or cold fermentations.

In the end, they recommend that home bakers use SAF Red, which confirms my own research. Your mileage may vary.

https://www.seriouseats.com/all-about-dry-yeast-instant-active-dry-fast-acting-and-more
Instagram: lightfuzer

Everything sounds better in latin.
Omnis pizza 'est bonum.
Every pizza is good.

Making good pizza is not that hard, unless we choose to make it that way.

The best pizza you'll ever make for someone is making the one they ask for instead of making it the way we think it should be made.

Offline Papa T

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 154
  • Location: Gainesville, Florida
  • When the moon hits your eye...
Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #44 on: September 06, 2021, 06:19:04 PM »
Papa T,

so would you recommend the home pizza maker to use Fleischmann's ADY?

If it were me, I'd use either any ADY, or SAF Red. If you're comfortable with ADY, stay with it. However, since you've said you like to use it like a dry ingredient, I can't help but believe that doing that will eventually come back to bite you when you least expect or want it.

ADY has been around decades and is well known. However, commercial instant yeasts like SAF Red have become the go-to instant dry yeast for many commercial bakers because of its reliability, long life, and use as a dry ingredient that doesn't need proofing. It also has characteristics that behave like ADY. That's why I use and like it. SAF Red has never failed me.

I buy it in bulk and store it in my sub zero freezer, and dole it out 3-4 ounces at a time to a small sealable container that I keep in the fridge for daily use. I can't attest to this, but I think it could last many, many years in the deep freeze. I have bags in the deep freeze approaching 2 years old and it sill works great. I just don't worry about yeast anymore because of it, and use it like I do sugar or salt in the dry mix.

Your mileage may vary.
Instagram: lightfuzer

Everything sounds better in latin.
Omnis pizza 'est bonum.
Every pizza is good.

Making good pizza is not that hard, unless we choose to make it that way.

The best pizza you'll ever make for someone is making the one they ask for instead of making it the way we think it should be made.

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 28126
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Pizza is not bread.
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #45 on: September 06, 2021, 07:07:26 PM »
It's not the first time Serious East has posted bad info in their advertisements disguised as articles.

Quote
“WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN INSTANT YEAST, BREAD MACHINE YEAST AND RAPIDRISE® INSTANT YEAST?”

Mainly names, but these are all the same yeast! Use interchangeably.

https://www.fleischmannsyeast.com/frequently-asked-questions/
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 28126
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Pizza is not bread.
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #46 on: September 06, 2021, 07:29:03 PM »
Bread machine yeast and instant yeast are the same yeast. RapidRise, Fleischmann’s branded instant yeast, is also an instant yeast, but a different strain than SAF or Red Star.

https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/learn/resources/yeast
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Papa T

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 154
  • Location: Gainesville, Florida
  • When the moon hits your eye...
Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #47 on: September 07, 2021, 05:35:46 PM »
Bread machine yeast and instant yeast are the same yeast. RapidRise, Fleischmann’s branded instant yeast, is also an instant yeast, but a different strain than SAF or Red Star.

https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/learn/resources/yeast

About Susan Reid
Susan Reid has been at King Arthur Flour since 2001, combining her dual passions for words and food. After careers in advertising, in high-end restaurants, and as a Chef-Instructor at the New England Culinary Institute, she spends her time at King Arthur writing and editing the baking newsletter, The Baking Sheet, and teaching both on the road and at The Baking Education Center. She’s a contributor to the award-winning King Arthur Flour Baker’s Companion and The King Arthur Flour Cookie Companion, and co-author of King Arthur Flour Whole Grain Baking.

Quote from Susan Reid, who is also a graduate of Bates College and the Culinary Institute of America, in the linked Yahoo Lifestyles article:

"Rapid Rise Yeast: Another variety of yeast often found on supermarket shelves. Many say that it’s exactly the same as instant yeast, but this isn’t true. Rather, it’s “a strain of instant yeast formulated to give you one strong rise,” says Reid. It’s intended for recipes that require only one, quick rise, like these Cinnamon Rolls with Cream Cheese Glaze. Otherwise, Reid discourages home bakers from using it, especially for long, slow rise recipes like no-knead bread and pizza doughs."

Once again, Reid confirms what my home based research has shown. Rapid/quick/fast rise yeasts are not the best choice for cold fermentation. The yeast pretty much expends itself on the initial rise, due to the fact that it is processed (by a method that is proprietary by manufacturers, and will not be divulged) to deliver maximum yeast effort on the initial rise, limiting the amount of viable live yeast available for flavor on an extended cold fermentations. Sure, it can be used, and the dough won't be miserable, but the dough won't taste as good as it could if a rapid/quick/fast rise, one-shot-and-done, grocery store "instant yeast" had not been used. For the best flavor cold fermentations, which is what many new folks are wanting to know about when asking about which yeast to use on this forum, and hopefully answered with facts and science and not beliefs, one needs to use a commercial instant yeast like SAF Red, ADY, or cake yeast.

The rapid/quick/fast rise grocery store instant yeasts are not all the same as commercial instant dry yeast. The rapid/quick/fast rise instant yeasts are different in manufacturing and processing from commercial instant dry yeasts like SAF Red which works the same as ADY for cold, extended fermentation in dough recipes that use such. Commercial IDY like SAF Red also has the benefit of being a dry mix ingredient and does not require proving as ADY does. This is why, as Reid states in the video link, that SAF Red instant yeast is the yeast of preference at King Arthur. The rapid/quick/fast rise grocery store yeasts are great for pizza dough in an hour or two, but not great for cold fermentation, as Susan indicates. You can send any arguments otherwise to Susan Reid. Over and out.

G'day.

https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/how-to-pick-the-right-yeast-for-the-job-109415708144.html

http://how2heroes.com/videos/dessert-and-baked-goods/yeast-101/

https://www.kingarthurbaking.com/author/susan-reid
Instagram: lightfuzer

Everything sounds better in latin.
Omnis pizza 'est bonum.
Every pizza is good.

Making good pizza is not that hard, unless we choose to make it that way.

The best pizza you'll ever make for someone is making the one they ask for instead of making it the way we think it should be made.

Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 28126
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Pizza is not bread.
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #48 on: September 07, 2021, 07:01:22 PM »
I asked Lesaffre "Is there a retail packaged Red Star Instant Yeast that is the same yeast as Saf-Instant Red? If not, what are the key differences between Saf-Instant Red and Red Star Quick-Rise?"

The response I got back today:

From: North America Carol Stevens <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, September 7, 2021 5:40 PM
To: Craig xxxx
Subject: RE: Subject: Instant Yeast Question


Hi Craig,

Thank you for writing.  No difference.
Red Star Quick Rise is exactly the same yeast as the Saf-Instant Red.

I hope you will find this information helpful.
Happy Baking!

Carol
Red Star Yeast
Lesaffre Corporation
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 30764
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #49 on: September 07, 2021, 07:29:13 PM »
As I noted earlier in this thread at Reply 32 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=71158.msg682376;topicseen#msg682376, Carol told me the same thing as she told Craig.

This is the post where I discussed what Carol told me:

Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=71158.msg682376;topicseen#msg682376

I might add that when I looked into the matter Lesaffre did not tell the public that its Red Star Instant yeast was the same as the Red Star Quick-Rise yeast, as can be seen by the omission of the Quick-Rise yeast in the list of Dry Yeast products at the time, at:

https://web.archive.org/web/20141219101028/http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/bakers-yeast-products/dry-yeast/saf-instant-red

I did a search this afternoon and it appears that this is the latest list of Lesaffre/Red Star professional dry yeast products:

https://lesaffreyeast.com/products/dry-yeast/

Again, no mention of the Quick-Rise consumer product.

For what it is worth, I also noted that in the Susan Reid video there are a couple of packets of yeast in front of the SAF Instant yeast, but she did not mention them. However, in the opening photo of the video, the packets are partially shown. I enlarged the photo and I believe that the label on the packets says SAF Gourmet Perfect Rise Yeast. That product is discussed here:

https://redstaryeast.com/products/saf/saf-gourmet-perfect-rise-yeast/

I discussed the SAF Gourmet Perfect Rise Yeast with Carol, at the earlier cited Reply 13 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10707.msg95811;topicseen#msg95811

I should further note that along the way I learned that the Red Star Instant yeast and the SAF Gourmet Perfect Rise yeast contained the same ingredients, as I so noted at Reply 53 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5379.msg47676;topicseen#msg47676

I recall that at one point I sensed that the SAF Gourmet Perfect Rise yeast was on its way out as a Red Star product. I did not see it today in the Red Star consumer product listing at:

https://redstaryeast.com/products/

Based on the Susan Reid video, it looks like Fleischmann's does not use the same yeast product in both consumer and professional settings.

Peter

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 28126
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Pizza is not bread.
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #50 on: September 14, 2021, 04:03:41 PM »
I received confirmation from AB Mauri that retail Fleischmann’s Rapid Rise and the foodservice IDY are also the same product.

I asked:

"I’m trying to determine if  Fleischmann’s RapidRise Instant Yeast is the same yeast as Fleischmann’s IDY #2139 or the Fleischmann’s Instant Dry Yeast that is sold in a 1# package. If not the same, what are the differences between the three."

I also included the 3 pictures below.

The response:

From: Horton, Jeff <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, September 13, 2021 5:07 PM
To: Craig xxx <[email protected]>
Subject: FW: [External] IDY Question


Hello Craig,

I hope you are doing well!

Our #2139 (1# blocks) is the same yeast and attributes as contained in the retail packets for Fleischmann’s Rapid Rise and the Mexican #2139V.

Let me know if you need further assistance,

Jeff

Jeff Horton
Vice President of Sales
AB Mauri North America
« Last Edit: September 14, 2021, 04:05:42 PM by TXCraig1 »
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 28126
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Pizza is not bread.
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #51 on: September 14, 2021, 04:07:06 PM »
Hopefully the myth that retail and foodservice IDY are different products has now been suitably dispelled.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline foreplease

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7911
  • Age: 61
  • Location: St. Joseph, MI
Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #52 on: September 14, 2021, 07:51:05 PM »
Hopefully the myth that retail and foodservice IDY are different products has now been suitably dispelled.
Good work. As I recall, Doc dispelled this in a couple places too.
-Tony

Offline jim s

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 21
Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #53 on: September 17, 2021, 01:49:45 AM »
Just buy a 1lb block of SAF Instant a micro scale and a calibration weight, and be done with it.

Offline jim s

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 21
Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #54 on: September 17, 2021, 01:55:40 AM »
Also...IDY does not have an infinite shelf life if stored in a freezer, test it every couple of months...much better than making a bad batch of dough.

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline 02ebz06

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5167
  • Location: Rio Rancho, NM USA
Re: IDY for variable cold ferment
« Reply #55 on: September 17, 2021, 10:35:12 AM »
Also...IDY does not have an infinite shelf life if stored in a freezer, test it every couple of months...much better than making a bad batch of dough.

I keep mine in the freezer and have no problems using it in a year or more.
Bruce here... My cooking toys --> FGM 800-B Pizza Oven, Pellet Grill, Pellet Smoker, Propane Griddle, Propane Grill

A D V E R T I S E M E N T