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Author Topic: Hydration Temper Tantrum  (Read 744 times)

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Offline peetzabone

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Hydration Temper Tantrum
« on: September 16, 2021, 02:34:11 PM »
 >:( >:( >:(

You all post things like "I used a 70% hydration and had to flour my hands a bit as it was still slightly tacky".  Are you all lying?? Do you all start w/ 70% hydration recipe and then add 200g of bench flour because your dough is so sticky so in fact you are nowhere near 70% hydration??  This is a damn conspiracy to drive me crazy, isn't it!!??

Here I am trying for 64% hydration and I'll be damned if I don't need to add significant bench flour during the kneading process just to keep it as a single mass and not hot chewing gum stuck to everything.

My rant above is *mostly* in jest but I do have legitimate needs /questions. I think I want higher hydration because my bake time is so darned long (6 to 6.5 minutes).

Particulars:
  • My stupid electric, non convection, oven maxes at 525F.
  • I have a 1/2" steel that is typically 575F on the inframometer at bake time (75 min pre-heating or so). I use a Steel under Corderierite two surface setup
  • My flour varies but lately it's 50% All-Trumps non bromated and 50% KAAP
  • My calculator I've added as an attached picture for reference
  • I use an Ankarsrum mixer with the roller

I typically do 50% of the flour and 100% of the liquid as a "poolish" and let it stand for 30 minutes after mixing. I use the Ank for about 8 minutes of kneading. Then I take it out to finish hand kneading before storing in fridge for fermentation. This is where I get so frustrated. When I pull it out of the mixer it's so wet and sticky there's no POSSIBLE way to knead it without gloves and a lot of bench flour.

Am I mixing too long in the mixer? Am I not mixing long enough?  I almost think that the dough looks "good" at about the 4 minute mark but then gets "wetter" later. This is just observational and not something I've tested. It's also counterintuitive as I would think absorption / evaporation would almost for sure make that impossible. Is my calculator wrong and I have more water than I thought?

Offline piesofsatan

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Re: Hydration Temper Tantrum
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2021, 12:45:03 AM »
>:( >:( >:(

You all post things like "I used a 70% hydration and had to flour my hands a bit as it was still slightly tacky".  Are you all lying?? Do you all start w/ 70% hydration recipe and then add 200g of bench flour because your dough is so sticky so in fact you are nowhere near 70% hydration??  This is a damn conspiracy to drive me crazy, isn't it!!??

Here I am trying for 64% hydration and I'll be damned if I don't need to add significant bench flour during the kneading process just to keep it as a single mass and not hot chewing gum stuck to everything.

My rant above is *mostly* in jest but I do have legitimate needs /questions. I think I want higher hydration because my bake time is so darned long (6 to 6.5 minutes).

Particulars:
  • My stupid electric, non convection, oven maxes at 525F.
  • I have a 1/2" steel that is typically 575F on the inframometer at bake time (75 min pre-heating or so). I use a Steel under Corderierite two surface setup
  • My flour varies but lately it's 50% All-Trumps non bromated and 50% KAAP
  • My calculator I've added as an attached picture for reference
  • I use an Ankarsrum mixer with the roller

I typically do 50% of the flour and 100% of the liquid as a "poolish" and let it stand for 30 minutes after mixing. I use the Ank for about 8 minutes of kneading. Then I take it out to finish hand kneading before storing in fridge for fermentation. This is where I get so frustrated. When I pull it out of the mixer it's so wet and sticky there's no POSSIBLE way to knead it without gloves and a lot of bench flour.

Am I mixing too long in the mixer? Am I not mixing long enough?  I almost think that the dough looks "good" at about the 4 minute mark but then gets "wetter" later. This is just observational and not something I've tested. It's also counterintuitive as I would think absorption / evaporation would almost for sure make that impossible. Is my calculator wrong and I have more water than I thought?

You may find it to be easier to work with if you let the dough rest for about 15 mins after you take it out of the mixer before finishing it by hand. Any time my dough is too sticky i'll just cover it and let it hang for a bit then come back to it and it is usually much more workable / smooth.

I never use bench flour. That said, I hang out in the 58-62% world when it comes to hydration.


Offline Papa T

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Re: Hydration Temper Tantrum
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2021, 01:02:59 AM »
I typically do 50% of the flour and 100% of the liquid as a "poolish" and let it stand for 30 minutes after mixing. I use the Ank for about 8 minutes of kneading. Then I take it out to finish hand kneading before storing in fridge for fermentation. This is where I get so frustrated. When I pull it out of the mixer it's so wet and sticky there's no POSSIBLE way to knead it without gloves and a lot of bench flour.

Why? A poolish is generally equal parts flour and water that you mix and let sit covered for hours if not a full day. Then it's added as a preferment to the dough batch. I'm unsure why you would mix 50% flour and 100% water then let it sit for a half hour. I don't know if that really accomplishes anything, other than over hydrating the flour you have in the bowl, and adding more flour after that makes me want to believe that is where your sticky issue or originating. But I'm only guessing. I've never done it that way.

Keeping all your ingredients the same, perhaps you can try putting the all the water in the bowl, then adding all the flour. It will mix easier by adding the water then the flour on top of it. Then mix that on a lower speed just until there is no visible flour remaining in the bowl. That should take 2 minutes or less in any mixer. Then cover the mixing bowl with a towel, and let that sit for 15-20 minutes or so, to enable that high gluten flour to absorb the water.

After that, add all your other dry ingredients and the honey, start the mixer again on the lower speed while drizzling in the oil over 10 seconds or so to enable it to incorporate easier. Mix that for two minutes or so at the lower speed. Once you see that the oil as been mostly incorporated, then bump the mixing speed up a notch, and mix it until it looks about right.

I've never used an Ankarsrum mixer, so I'm clueless on how the dough is mixed, but I'd say that when it looks and feels right, regardless of the time, stop it, reach in and stretch it a bit between two hands. If it stretches well without breaking, I'd say you are done. Then take it out to portion, shape and ball. If it doesn't stretch well, keep mixing in 2-3 minute increments until it does.

While 64% hydration isn't radical, it will be wetter than the 58-62% many use for pizza dough. I often use 65% and find that keeping the dough moving with a bench scraper while portioning and balling, keeps it from getting too sticky on the hands. A very light dusting of flour on the bench while doing that also helps, and after doing it a few times, you probably won't need the bench flour anymore. Portioning a more wet dough is more about technique than anything else. A little bench flour shouldn't affect your hydration much, though, if you don't cut it into the dough while balling it, just using as little as possible of it to reduce the sticky stuff that may happen. Good luck.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2021, 01:05:15 AM by Papa T »
Everything sounds better in latin.
Omnis pizza 'est bonum.
Every pizza is good.

Making good pizza is not that hard, unless we choose to make it that way.

The best pizza you'll ever make for someone is making the one they ask for instead of making it the way we think it should be made.

Offline Pandasbecats

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Re: Hydration Temper Tantrum
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2021, 02:01:45 AM »
I make Neapolitans in the 67-70% hydration range. My last batch was 68% for thirty 250 gram doughs. Using a 12 hour 50% poolish, I hand knead everything for 15-20 min with no bench flour; the stickiness goes away slowly. Any remaining tackiness will be removed by a 30 min bulk rest before balling
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Offline amolapizza

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Re: Hydration Temper Tantrum
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2021, 03:59:31 AM »
When you put the dough in the fridge, leave it uncovered until it has cooled down otherwise you'll get a very humid environment and even condensation in your container.  This helps the dough to be drier on the surface when you get it out of the fridge.

If you do see that it's dry in the mixer and then gets wetter again, then you've kneaded it too much.
Jack

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Offline ARenko

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Re: Hydration Temper Tantrum
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2021, 08:33:27 AM »
When I was making pizzas in my home oven I did 70% hydration for the same reason you're doing it - long bake time.  I don't have a mixer, so mixed by hand.  I'd let it rest a few minutes after mixing.  I didn't use any bench flour - just wet my fingers and did a series of stretch and folds with 10-20 min in between (longer between earlier S&F's).  The stickiness eventually goes away.  If you haven't already, try watching some videos on handling high hydration doughs and/ or S&F's.

Also, check your oven manual for how to calibrate it - I can adjust my oven to get to 585F with a maximum setting of 550F.

Offline wotavidone

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Re: Hydration Temper Tantrum
« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2021, 08:34:53 AM »
I hang out in the 58-62% world when it comes to hydration.
Me too. Even that can be challenging. It depends on the flour.
I made dough yesterday morning. I used Gaganis Bros 00 flour at 58% hydration. (All ingredients weighed on a digital scale.)
Is early spring here and still quite chilly overnight, and my yeast is getting old. So I left it in a sealed container on the kitchen sink for a "room temp", probably 60 degrees, ferment.
Balled it at about 28 hours, stretched it at about 31 hours.
Needed a lot of care removing the balls from the box, and plenty of flour when I was stretching it.
Basically flattened out the doughball and turned it several times in the flour before the actual stretch.
Easily stretched 270g to 12"+.

Last time I made dough, I used supermarket all purpose flour at 63% hydration. I dusted the peel, and lightly dusted the bench, but that was about it.


Mick

Offline wotavidone

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Re: Hydration Temper Tantrum
« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2021, 08:55:08 AM »
A little bench flour shouldn't affect your hydration much, though, if you don't cut it into the dough while balling it
I've been pondering this very thing for a while now.
My pondering has gone long these lines:
If I have a 250g doughball at 70%, I have 147g flour and 103g water.
If 2 teaspoons of flour stick to the doughball when balling it, I have about 6.6g more flour.
So now I have 153.6g flour and 103g water.
Even if I don't cut it into the dough when balling it, after the doughball has rested for a while and water distribution has equilibrated somewhat, don't I have 67% hydration effectively?
Mick

Offline 9slicePie

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Re: Hydration Temper Tantrum
« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2021, 10:03:26 AM »
Using a 12 hour 50% poolish

What is a "50% poolish"?

Offline Pandasbecats

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Re: Hydration Temper Tantrum
« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2021, 11:11:18 AM »
What is a "50% poolish"?

Itís a poolish using 50% of the final flour amount

I've been pondering this very thing for a while now.
My pondering has gone long these lines:
If I have a 250g doughball at 70%, I have 147g flour and 103g water.
If 2 teaspoons of flour stick to the doughball when balling it, I have about 6.6g more flour.
So now I have 153.6g flour and 103g water.
Even if I don't cut it into the dough when balling it, after the doughball has rested for a while and water distribution has equilibrated somewhat, don't I have 67% hydration effectively?

Probably somewhere in-between 70-67% in effect. Extra flour in large amounts does affect the hydration from the sources Iíve looked at but it shouldnít fall outright directly like that. A 70% recipe dough ball didnít outright start feeling like a 67% one when using a lot of bench flour in my earlier pizza handling
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Offline loch

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Re: Hydration Temper Tantrum
« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2021, 11:24:23 AM »
When I was making pizzas in my home oven I did 70% hydration for the same reason you're doing it - long bake time.  I don't have a mixer, so mixed by hand.  I'd let it rest a few minutes after mixing.  I didn't use any bench flour - just wet my fingers and did a series of stretch and folds with 10-20 min in between (longer between earlier S&F's).  The stickiness eventually goes away. 

I use the stretch and fold method for both pizza and bread dough and tend to go with higher hydration doughs. I mix in a Bosch Universal but never mix for longer than three minutes. Just enough to incorporate the ingredients. I leave my dough out on a marble slab for an hour before bulk fermenting in the 'fridge and in that hour do a stretch and fold every 20 minutes. No bench flour just wet hands.

Not sure I can get these pictures in one post, but you can see the dough develop. This is a 72% multigrain bread dough, but pizza dough works as well.

Dave



"As long as when she takes me out she buys me pizza and beer!"

Offline loch

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Re: Hydration Temper Tantrum
« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2021, 11:25:38 AM »
Final pics,

Dave
"As long as when she takes me out she buys me pizza and beer!"

Offline 9slicePie

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Re: Hydration Temper Tantrum
« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2021, 11:55:26 AM »
How many stretches/folds do you do in each set?

Offline scott r

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Re: Hydration Temper Tantrum
« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2021, 12:05:17 PM »
this time of year its not uncommon to have flour that's wetter than usual.   A lot depends on how it was stored.. and thats not by you... its the various people with their hands in it throughout the supply chain.

Also that mixer is a tricky one.   It can make a great dough, but it also tends to take a while.   Its been many years since I had it, but in general I remember a long mix time.   Mixing longer should tighten up your dough.  I dont think 8 min in that mixer it would be possible to over mix.   Could be wrong but with roller I feel like it might have been closer to 20 min for me.

Offline loch

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Re: Hydration Temper Tantrum
« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2021, 12:07:10 PM »
How many stretches/folds do you do in each set?

Four each set.

Dave
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Offline scott r

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Re: Hydration Temper Tantrum
« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2021, 12:08:08 PM »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Hydration Temper Tantrum
« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2021, 01:45:53 PM »
petezabone,

I agree with the others on the amount of water (hydration) that is used. In your case, you use 50% AT and 50% KAAP. The AT has an absorption value of around 63%. For the KAAP, the rated absorption value is 61%. So for the combination, one could use (63 + 61)/2 = 62%. However, it should be noted that the oil, while it cannot hydrate the flour blend, it will still have a wetting effect on the flours. So, at 2% oil, plus the 62% water, we get a combined value of 64%. Perhaps a better starting point would be to use a hydration value of 62%-2%= 60%. As others have noted, many professionals use hydration values below 60%. I noted this approach myself, at Reply 3 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=51392.msg516778;topicseen#msg516778

Peter
« Last Edit: September 18, 2021, 04:29:20 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline amolapizza

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Re: Hydration Temper Tantrum
« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2021, 02:24:49 PM »
Also with European flours in general (I don't know much about US flours and styles), I think 58% is a much better starting point for the beginner..  So maybe 58% is universal :)

Start with a lower hydration and work yourself up.  It will be a lot easier, and you'll learn the skills needed as you go.

Another tip, stop the mixer every few minutes and touch the dough, you're at the right point when it stops being sticky and starts being just tacky.
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline peetzabone

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Re: Hydration Temper Tantrum
« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2021, 04:20:58 PM »

Perhaps a better starting point would be to use a hydration value of 62%-2%= 60%. As others have noted, many professionals use hydration values below 60%.

Peter

Thanks as always Pete. I didn't think about the oil adding to the overall "hydrating" dynamic even though it's not actually absorbed like water. I will increase my high gluten percent as a partial offset and let my poolish do poolish things for a lot longer. I'll also let the Ank work on it longer. I appreciate you!

Offline piesofsatan

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Re: Hydration Temper Tantrum
« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2021, 04:13:48 PM »
piesofsatan,

I got so confused when reading this until I realized you meant to address the OP and not myself. It was especially confusing because I also used 50% AT and 50% KAAP for a while  :-D

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