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Author Topic: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina  (Read 282625 times)

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Offline Mick.Chicago

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #360 on: November 07, 2010, 08:47:51 AM »
Looks OK, only suggestion, unless the flash is misleading me is to crimp harder into the corners. 


Offline cup-o-pizza

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #361 on: November 07, 2010, 09:41:30 AM »
Looks OK, only suggestion, unless the flash is misleading me is to crimp harder into the corners. 



So that the bottom edge is more squared off?
Matt

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Offline Mick.Chicago

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #362 on: November 07, 2010, 12:05:41 PM »
Yeah! That's how I'd want it but it's up to you!

Offline cup-o-pizza

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #363 on: November 07, 2010, 12:11:49 PM »
Right on.  I'll try that next time!
Matt

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Offline BTB

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #364 on: November 08, 2010, 03:32:54 PM »
Getting back into the swing of pizzamaking after having the summer off, I recently received some small deep dish pizza pans from Pizzatools.com so that I could better experiment with and try various pizza recipes or ingredients or proportions of ingredients in order to assess and evaluate the differences in recipes or ingredients.  The larger size pans sometimes makes it difficult to see or judge what the effect of different things and ingredients have, especially when you have to consume large amounts of pizzas afterwards with the larger sized pans.  With making small pizzas side by side, I thought such would help in learning the effects of different ingredients more easily.

So I set about this past weekend making two small individual sized (i.e. 6") pizzas to test out the difference between the Semolina Flour that I often have been using with great success and the King Arthur Extra Fancy Durum Flour that I recently received from KA.  Some had discussed use of the Durum flour earlier this year in this thread as an alternative to semolina and my curiosity got the better of me, so I recently placed and received an order for some durum flour from KA.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2010, 03:45:12 PM by BTB »

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Offline BTB

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #365 on: November 08, 2010, 03:36:17 PM »
Each pizza was baked in a small 6" diameter pan, the dough crimped or pressed tightly approx. 1.5" up the side of the pan, a bowl residue of 1.5%, and a nominal TF of .11.  The formulation that I used for each pizza was as follows:
 
Flour (100%):  95.34 g  |  3.36 oz | 0.21 lbs
Water (45%):  42.9 g  |  1.51 oz | 0.09 lbs
ADY (.6%):  0.57 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.15 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
Salt (1%):  0.95 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.17 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):  5.72 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.27 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
Corn Oil (12%):  11.44 g | 0.4 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.54 tsp | 0.85 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (6%):  5.72 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.21 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):  1.43 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.36 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
Total (172.1%): 164.08 g | 5.79 oz | 0.36 lbs | TF = 0.11165
 
For one pizza, the flour component consisted of 65% KAOAP (approx. 62 g) and 35% semolina flour (approx. 33.3 g) and the second pizza consisted of 65% KAOAP and 35% KA "Extra Fancy Durum" Flour, which were the same weights (see http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/king-arthur-extra-fancy-durum-flour-3-lb).  KA suggested to me that an amount more than 25% of semolina or durum may be needed to distinguish the difference. 
 
After a brief wooden spoon and hand mix of a minute or two, I let the dough balls rise in a slightly warmed oven (covered in a bowl) for about 90 to 120 minutes and then put them into plastic bags and into the refrigerator for 24 hours or so and then took them out about 2 to 3 hours prior to baking to get the dough to an approx. room temperature (70ish).  I then put a tsp. or two of olive oil into the pans, pressed the dough into the pans (again with a tight pinch or crimping of the dough against the sides of the pan, which seemingly is a minor but to me an essential part of Chicago Style deep dish pizzamaking).  I then put in about 3 to 3.75 oz. of sliced part skimmed, low moisture mozzarella cheese, then some great Italian sausage (uncooked, of course) from our local Italian deli, then the Lou Malnati's tomatoes (drained slightly for about 3 or 4 minutes), then a pinch of oregano and a pinch of basil, then a lot of good pinches of special grated parmesan cheese from my local Italian deli, and then into the oven.  Pictures showing the "dressing" process follow.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2010, 08:32:12 AM by BTB »

Offline BTB

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #366 on: November 08, 2010, 03:38:28 PM »
In addition to wanting to try out the "Extra Fancy Durum" Flour, I also wanted to try out the Lou Malnati's canned tomatoes that I got when I was in Chicago this past summer.  In opening the can of Malnati's tomatoes and tasting the contents, I was blown away and greatly impressed with the quality of the Malnati's tomatoes. Very tasty and flavorful, just like I remembered at the restaurants.  I hope my supply lasts me through the winter, but I am doubtful it will after this.  The pizza on the right in all the pictures is the one with the "extra fancy durum" flour.

Offline BTB

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #367 on: November 08, 2010, 03:40:16 PM »
I baked the pizzas at 450 degrees F for 22 to 25 minutes on the next to the bottom rack level (my electric oven has 8 levels and no hot elements within sight in the oven -- others may need to use a higher rack or learn of their oven's characteristics accordingly).  The pizza with the semolina got a little darker earlier than the pizza with the "extra fancy durum."  I, of course, turned both pizzas 180 degrees midway through the baking cycle and after taking them out, I extracted them from the small 6" pan using a small "frosting" spatula.  For larger size pizzas, I have a bigger instrument or spatula, as larger pizzas can take quite a bit of work to get out without destroying or messing up the pan pizza.

Offline BTB

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #368 on: November 08, 2010, 03:43:59 PM »
Both these pizzas were absolutely phenomenal.  I hadn't made a pizza since last spring until now, but they seemed to have been among the best that I've ever made.  First of all, the Malnati's tomatoes were the best I've ever had on a homemade pizza.  My wife liked them, too, but commented that she thought the 6 in 1's with the Muir Glen cubed tomato pieces were as good also.  I semi agree but think the Malnati's gave it a "back in the restaurant" character and flavor that was so very noticeable and desired for us Malnati fans.

My wife and I split both pizzas and delighted in every bite and morsel of the crisp yet tender crust and slightly sweet but so tasty tomato pieces.  They really came out great we thought.
 
Which was better?  Boy, I hate to waver, but that is hard to say.  My wife thought the version with the Durum was slightly better, but raved about the other also.  I thought the version with the 35% semolina was slightly better, but the other pizza was really great also.  The Durum flour seemed to make the pizza crust a little lighter and tenderer, but ever so slight.   KA kind of suggested that one may need larger proportions of the semolina and durum to distinguish the taste and flavor better, so that may have to wait for another day.  Either way, one super, super pizza can be made and you wouldn't be disappointed with either.

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Offline loowaters

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #369 on: November 08, 2010, 04:32:48 PM »
Nice experiment, BTB.  The pizzas look great and how 'bout those Malnati's tomatoes

Loo
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Offline norma427

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #370 on: November 08, 2010, 05:27:16 PM »
BTB,

Good experiments and delicious looking pizzas!  You did a fantastic job in making these pizzas.  :)

Norma

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #371 on: November 08, 2010, 06:14:31 PM »
BTB,

Very interesting approach, with good results.

How do you like the pizzatools.com (Lloyd Pans) PSTK deep-dish pans compared with the others you have used?

Peter

Offline BTB

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #372 on: November 09, 2010, 10:03:49 AM »
Loo, those Lou Malnati's tomatoes were really great.  Suggest all who may be interested to email Marc Malnati and talk him into having them sent to interested purchasers through mail or delivery service.  Maybe they've started to do so, but I hadn't inquired yet as I have a fair supply on hand. 
 
Norma, you lead the way on the durum flour trials and I just had to follow up and see for myself.  I had your results and pictures from earlier this year in mind when I was contemplating the effort.  And I see you continue making great strides in all your pizzamaking adventures, too.
 
Peter, as you know, I followed your lead with the pizzatools.com cutter pans a couple of years ago and swear about their use for thin crust pizzas.  I thought their cutter pans were great products.  In looking to get some smaller sized pans, I thought I'd see if their deep dish pans were of a like quality to their cutter pans.  And yes they are.  Preliminarily, I am very favorably impressed with their quality and baking characteristics.  As you know, it has that dark "tuff-kote" PSTK coating.  With that dark anodized finish, it enables one to get a hotter and faster bake "as it is more absorptive of the IR energy radiated from the hot oven surfaces" than the reflective surface of bright or shiny bare aluminum pans.  That's why most experienced pizzamakers always recommend using dark coated pans as opposed to the bright, shiny ones.  And the information from the company about their pans further recites:  "The heavy gauge durable spun construction with the dark anodized release coat of PSTK will give hot bakes with great color and snap to the crust.   This combination of features and their performance benefits can't be beaten."  And so far, I'm a believer.

Pizzamakers using the pans with the PSTK coating should watch the baking of a pizza carefully when first using their pans as they do seem to get that nice golden brown color a little faster than other pans, which I think is a good thing. Just watch so they don't get too browned.
 
One thing about their written "Important Notice" of the PSTK finish both in the instructions that came with the pans and previously on their Internet site concerned me very much.  Their instructions until a week or two ago warned "Do not use olive oil or any soy based" oils in the pan.  Now that's a big, big problem for Chicago Style deep dish pizzas that most commonly uses olive oil in the pan under the pizza dough (as well as in the dough).  If I can't use olive oil, what good are the pans to me, I thought.  So I jotted off an email to the company and got a nice response back.
 
I was informed that "The olive oil reference you pointed out is simply nonsense on our part . . . we have changed and updated our PSTK notice flyer which should have been included with your pans and attached the updated version for you as a PDF file. There is no reason not to use any oil you desire. Thank you for bringing this to our attention."  So all should feel free to use olive oil with their pans.  They still caution, understandably, about use of vegetable oil (99.9% of which is really soy oil).  I've noticed when using vegetable oil with or for seasoning other pans (like my Chicago Metallic) a certain "stickiness" to the pans, which was very undesirable.  So I would agree that one should not use vegetable oil in the bottom of any pizza pan if you want your pans to last longer.

Incidentally, I made another pizza for my adult son last night using a 7" diameter pizzatools.com pan instead and using the same basic durum flour recipe as above, altered slightly to include 5% rice flour (as its another of my favorite additives from time to time).  With the Malnati's tomatoes, it again turned out fantastic also.  I also made a thin cracker crust using the cutter pan last night, which I'll report about elsewhere when I have a chance. 
 
                                                                            --BTB  :pizza:

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #373 on: November 09, 2010, 10:19:37 AM »
BTB,

I went through the same drill as you on using oil in the PSTK pizzatools pans except that I called the company instead of emailing them. I posted what I learned from my call at Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7152.msg68824/topicseen.html#msg68824.

Peter

Offline Mick.Chicago

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #374 on: November 09, 2010, 10:35:27 AM »
The pies look the business!


What other semolina flours have you tried?

I'm looking to buy in bulk due to the sheer amount of pasta my daughter consumes now  :'(

I was contemplating getting a multipack from Bobs Red Mill, but I've found the Ziyad brand to be just as good and a lot cheaper.

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Offline BTB

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #375 on: November 09, 2010, 11:19:45 AM »
Hey, Mick, I've only tried Bob's Red Mill semolina flour and have always found it to be great.  I've been tempted to put it through the food processor to make it even finer, but none of my taste testers find that it provides a "gritty" mouth feel that Ed had in his earlier comments, so I'm satisfied with the product as is. But at my local "health food" store, they have a couple of other brands of semolina that I may try some day. However, if wanting the "extra fancy durum," it would seem to make more sense to order both the semolina and durum from King Arthur as Bob's doesn't sell the special "extra fancy" durum flour.  I am unfamiliar with the Ziyad brand but always found the King Arthur to be top notch.  Buying bulk is not my thing, but if your needs require such . . . .   
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Offline Clive At Five

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #376 on: November 09, 2010, 11:34:15 AM »
BTB, all, thanks for the input on which type of "grease" I should use on the pan.

I first tried using a smaller quantity of corn oil and baking on a higher rack in my gas oven (I will try Crisco next time). The results were much better. My dad raved that it was the best pizza he had eaten since UNO closed their last location here in MN. I agreed that it was really quite good, but didn't quite meet UNO's brilliance. I was expecting a more buttery, flaky crust. Instead, the crust is still a bit "bread-y" and right before pressing into the pan, despite having a day to rise and time to warm up to room temp, the dough is thick and heavy, having almost a drying Play-doh consistency.

In troubleshooting, I've come up with a few hypotheses that I'd like some expert input on: 1) I do not have a kitchen scale. I used the various calculators to convert the weights to common volume-based measuring devices. I am absolutely confident in my conversions, but I know that there can be inconsistencies in densities, especially in flour. 2) To my eternal shame, I do not own a flour sifter. It's one of those space-gobbling kitchen gadgets that I would use twice a year. (I do, however, own a sieve... would that be sufficient?) I'm fairly certain some combination of 1 & 2 are the main culprits, but let me continue with the symptoms so you geniuses can reassure me that I'm not missing anything: After I've proofed the ADY and added it to the four mixture (reserving a quarter cup of flour), the liquid is not nearly enough to get the dough incorporated. Yes, I am paranoid about over-mixing, but I could probably mash on that bowl for an hour and still have dry crumbles. Is this expected? Later, when I add the oils, there is just barely enough liquid to bring the dough together, but it's tough. I actually have added a couple T of water in order to bring the dough to a usable consistency. I let it rest somewhere warm for an hour, then do an over-night cool-rise, per BTB's suggestion. Certainly after that, the dough comes out a bit softer, but is still difficult to work.

Between (1), (2), and/or something else, what, pray-tell, do you pizza gurus suspect to be my issue?

Thanks again for your knowledge!

-Clive
« Last Edit: November 09, 2010, 12:58:54 PM by Clive At Five »

Offline BTB

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #377 on: November 09, 2010, 12:58:11 PM »
Hey Clive, welcome again to our site.  No one here is THE absolute expert, but we all like to trade information and help each other out to get to each of our pizza "Valhalla."  I'll just go through a few of your comments and give my thoughts FWIW -- which may not be much. 
 
I hope you do not bake a pizza normally higher than midlevel in your oven.  One or two levels lower than midlevel would be better IMO, but depends on your oven's characteristics.  Only go to a level higher than midlevel when the pizza is done and you're trying to darken the pizza top a bit.  I prefer olive oil to corn oil on the bottom of the pan (and like you say, just a little), but the type is a personal preference.  But Crisco is very, very good also and I often times revert to using it as it always shows a good result. 
 
Yep, none of us deep dish enthusiasts like a "bready" crust (except those who like the bready crust on the discredited -- my opinion only -- Pizza Hut deep dish).  Regarding your "play-doh" consistency, my goal in putting all the ingredients together is getting a dough ball that is ever so slightly dry but maybe a little oily and then adding pinches of flour to the ball to make it a little more drier.  That seems to work the best for me.
 
My sympathy (lol) on not having a kitchen scale.  A real plus in pizzamaking I think.  Makes the job simpler and worth the $30 to $50 investment.  The flour sifter is not that important, tho.  The same strainer that I use to strain the crushed tomatoes does as good job on sifting as does my flour sifter.  And besides, it is debatable whether sifting provides that much of a superior result.  I prefer to sift when I have the time, but am finding myself more and more skipping the process. 
 
From hereinafter in reading your comments, I'm not quite certain what's transpiring.  I think you are doing a variant of autolyse and I suggest that be eliminated and only tried out after one has more deep dish pizzamaking experience under their belt (so don't reserve the quarter cup of flour).  Put in the foamed up water with the ADY (assuming it foamed up for approx. 10 minutes and that the water was in the range of 100 to 110 degrees F).  Do not wait on the oil and put it in at the same time.  The dough ball should not be tough or difficult to mix together at this point normally.  Sometimes that has happened to me, but I had to think to myself that I varied somehow and someway from the formulation (and after thinking about it always find that I had). 
 
Here's one possible thought I have on your plight.  Measuring liquids like water and oil sometimes is not as simple as one would think it is, esp. in small amounts.  You've probably seen in some of my photos the little measuring glass that I use to proof the ADY and water and also use the same or similar with oil (in which I usually combine several types of oil together on top of the scale).  I found it necessary with all liquids to put a "smidgeon" more of water or oil as much remains in the glass after pouring it out.  I know some may be disbelievers regarding this, but its been a good lesson for me.  Some caution is, of course, needed here as a small additions of water or oil can serious alter the recipe or formulation greatly.  And I'm sorry to say that I don't have a good definition of "smidgeon."  As Rachael Ray often says, "I just eyeball it!"
 
Sometimes, but very rarely, when I find a difficult and dry dough ball to work with, I will judge whether is lacks a tiny bit of water or oil and carefully add a little of either.  And if I go overboard, then some pinches of flour may be necessary.  But I realize that at that point I may have altered the formulation a bit, but trudge on through anyway.  The alternative is to throw everything out and start anew, and I hate to do that, of course.
 
I trust after putting the dough ball together, maybe slightly oiling it, covering it in a bowl and placing it in a warm spot, that you let it rise for 1 to 2 hours (longer is better), punching it down, maybe doing another rise, throwing it into the refrigerator for at least 24 hours (altho same day use is do-able) in a covered bowl or in a ziplock bag, and taking it out preferably 2 to 3 hours prior to baking.  After it's warmed to room temperature, I press it out normally on the counter to roughly the size of the pan and then put it into the pan and press it in tightly.  Oftentimes I find too much dough for the pan and scrape or tear some out as I don't want too thick a dough or crust.
 
I don't know if I've been of any help, but its a learning process that only trial and error and some experience can bring about.  Good luck and let us know how things went.  Hopefully some others can add their thoughts and comments also.
 
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Offline vcb

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #378 on: November 09, 2010, 01:22:19 PM »
BTB, all, thanks for the input on which type of "grease" I should use on the pan.

I first tried using a smaller quantity of corn oil and baking on a higher rack in my gas oven (I will try Crisco next time). The results were much better. My dad raved that it was the best pizza he had eaten since UNO closed their last location here in MN. I agreed that it was really quite good, but didn't quite meet UNO's brilliance. I was expecting a more buttery, flaky crust. Instead, the crust is still a bit "bread-y" and right before pressing into the pan, despite having a day to rise and time to warm up to room temp, the dough is thick and heavy, having almost a drying Play-doh consistency.

In troubleshooting, I've come up with a few hypotheses that I'd like some expert input on: 1) I do not have a kitchen scale. I used the various calculators to convert the weights to common volume-based measuring devices. I am absolutely confident in my conversions, but I know that there can be inconsistencies in densities, especially in flour. 2) To my eternal shame, I do not own a flour sifter. It's one of those space-gobbling kitchen gadgets that I would use twice a year. (I do, however, own a sieve... would that be sufficient?) I'm fairly certain some combination of 1 & 2 are the main culprits, but let me continue with the symptoms so you geniuses can reassure me that I'm not missing anything: After I've proofed the ADY and added it to the four mixture (reserving a quarter cup of flour), the liquid is not nearly enough to get the dough incorporated. Yes, I am paranoid about over-mixing, but I could probably mash on that bowl for an hour and still have dry crumbles. Is this expected? Later, when I add the oils, there is just barely enough liquid to bring the dough together, but it's tough. I actually have added a couple T of water in order to bring the dough to a usable consistency. I let it rest somewhere warm for an hour, then do an over-night cool-rise, per BTB's suggestion. Certainly after that, the dough comes out a bit softer, but is still difficult to work.

Between (1), (2), and/or something else, what, pray-tell, do you pizza gurus suspect to be my issue?

Thanks again for your knowledge!

-Clive

BTB is on the money.
My 2 cents: Sounds like 2 possibilities -
I don't know how much oil/water you are using, but you might need a little bit more of both.
Also, you might be slightly out of sequence when combining the ingredients.
Try proofing your yeast/warm water in the mixing bowl , then add the oil into the bowl ,
then mix in a small part of your flour (maybe a cup) until you have a 'batter', then work in the rest of your flour into the dough.
I work the dough by hand, folding and kneading until it comes together into a ball, similar to pie dough, but a little softer.
It will start out seeming like you don't have enough liquid, but will eventually come together.
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #379 on: November 09, 2010, 02:35:19 PM »
I found it necessary with all liquids to put a "smidgeon" more of water or oil as much remains in the glass after pouring it out.

BTB,

A neat trick that November taught me for measuring out water was to pour some water into my measuring cup, empty it, and then tare out the measuring cup before adding the amount of water called for by the recipe. That way, you are going to get pretty close to the desired quantity. The same method can be used when measuring out oil or other liquid ingredient that leaves a small amount behind when emptying the measuring cup or container.

Peter

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