A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Author Topic: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina  (Read 282891 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Clive At Five

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 74
  • Location: Orange County, CA
  • I <3 pizza
    • Clive "At Five" Adams' Facebook -- Games, Tech, Politics  & more!
Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #400 on: December 16, 2010, 01:10:33 PM »
BTB is on the money.
My 2 cents: Sounds like 2 possibilities -
I don't know how much oil/water you are using, but you might need a little bit more of both.
Also, you might be slightly out of sequence when combining the ingredients.
Try proofing your yeast/warm water in the mixing bowl , then add the oil into the bowl ,
then mix in a small part of your flour (maybe a cup) until you have a 'batter', then work in the rest of your flour into the dough.
I work the dough by hand, folding and kneading until it comes together into a ball, similar to pie dough, but a little softer.
It will start out seeming like you don't have enough liquid, but will eventually come together.

vcb - THANK YOU for your order-of-operations help. The "batter" technique. It really, really helped. Looking back, I'm not sure what I was trying to accomplish but I'm kind of embarrassed! :-[

BTB - The Crisco worked GREAT. I had no fears of oil running over the crust, etc. It was just a clean, simple panning.

This is my best result yet, but the I'm still having issues with the dough turning out "bread-y." I've narrowed it down to a couple factors I'd appreciate some input on.

1) too much flour. A kitchen scale will remedy this. It's on my Christmas list. ;) BTB, I recall you saying your dough was (as you put it) "ever so slightly oily" when you panned it. This time, mine was almost the consistency and dryness of a bread dough, though it was a *bit* more oily than previous iterations. Instead of adding even MORE oil, I want to try one with the kitchen scale, as I'm almost certain I'm adding too much flour instead of too little oil.

2) dough too thick? Just before panning, I had rolled to a thickness of roughly a quarter of an inch. I'm not as convinced of this being the culprit because I'm more suspect of the dough being overcooked (#3). I'm shooting for a *slightly* crustier outer surface and an "ever so slightly" tender inner layer, and instead it was... well... all bread.

3) Overcooked. The outer shell was just rigid. Not flexible or flaky in the least. I'm blaming my old gas oven again. It may be that the knob isn't properly calibrated to the correct temp -- I don't know, but I need to find the position on the knob that corresponds to great pizza, regardless of what the temp actually is! ;) At the same time, I'm not getting enough caramelization on top. I started at "425" for the first ~15 and when I checked on it to rotate it, the crust was already starting to brown. That's not a good sign! I reduced the heat to "400" for the remaining time, but I'm pretty sure the damage has already been done!

My game plan is to try somewhere between the "375" and "400" settings on my oven knob. I will check FREQUENTLY to ensure the crust is not cooking too quickly or too slowly... though I really don't have a benchmark of the latter. Would someone be able to describe the characteristics of their crust around the 15-20 minute mark?

Also, since I'd like a little more caramelization, I'm considering moving UP yet another a rack... at the very least for the second half of the cook-time.

My pictures are below.

Thanks for any input!

-Clive
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 01:15:12 PM by Clive At Five »

Offline vcb

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 583
  • Location: Chicago
    • Real Deep Dish
Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #401 on: December 16, 2010, 01:57:13 PM »
This is my best result yet, but the I'm still having issues with the dough turning out "bread-y." I've narrowed it down to a couple factors I'd appreciate some input on.

1) too much flour. A kitchen scale will remedy this. It's on my Christmas list. ;) BTB, I recall you saying your dough was (as you put it) "ever so slightly oily" when you panned it. This time, mine was almost the consistency and dryness of a bread dough, though it was a *bit* more oily than previous iterations. Instead of adding even MORE oil, I want to try one with the kitchen scale, as I'm almost certain I'm adding too much flour instead of too little oil.
 

Might also be not enough water. Low humidity in the air could be stealing moisture from your dough.
Also, I usually add a few drops of oil to the dough before covering it for the rise so the dough doesn't dry out.
 
Quote
2) dough too thick? Just before panning, I had rolled to a thickness of roughly a quarter of an inch. I'm not as convinced of this being the culprit because I'm more suspect of the dough being overcooked (#3). I'm shooting for a *slightly* crustier outer surface and an "ever so slightly" tender inner layer, and instead it was... well... all bread.

Is it possible you over-kneaded?

Also, you can reduce the bready outer lip by just barely pressing the outer edge up.
For crust lip technique, watch Marc Malnati:


Quote
3) Overcooked. The outer shell was just rigid. Not flexible or flaky in the least. I'm blaming my old gas oven again. It may be that the knob isn't properly calibrated to the correct temp -- I don't know, but I need to find the position on the knob that corresponds to great pizza, regardless of what the temp actually is! ;) At the same time, I'm not getting enough caramelization on top. I started at "425" for the first ~15 and when I checked on it to rotate it, the crust was already starting to brown. That's not a good sign! I reduced the heat to "400" for the remaining time, but I'm pretty sure the damage has already been done!

My game plan is to try somewhere between the "375" and "400" settings on my oven knob. I will check FREQUENTLY to ensure the crust is not cooking too quickly or too slowly... though I really don't have a benchmark of the latter. Would someone be able to describe the characteristics of their crust around the 15-20 minute mark?

Also, since I'd like a little more caramelization, I'm considering moving UP yet another a rack... at the very least for the second half of the cook-time.

Many are trying to get a super-golden brown crust, but the texture is more important than the color.
Don't expect tender super-flaky, like you'd see from a pie or a puff pastry.
This crust is going to be closer to crispy/crumbly, like one of those pecan sandies cookies.
I've had many deep dish pizzas from Malnati's and Uno that are much lighter in color that some of the pizzas we bake in this forum.

I usually preheat my oven at 500 degrees and then turn it down to 450 right after I put the pizza in the oven.
I also highly recommend, if you don't have one, to get an oven thermometer (one that hangs off one of your oven racks)
to verify the temp of your oven.
You should be baking on the lowest rack of your oven, and then, like you mentioned,  if you want your toppings or the top of your crust to get more brown, you can definitely move the pizza to the top rack in the last 10 minutes of baking, but keep an eye on your pizza or things may start burning.

From the photos, it looks like you got pretty close. Nice Job!
How big was your pizza and how much time did you bake it in total?
-- Ed Heller -aka- VCBurger -- Real Deep Dish - Deep Dish 101
http://www.realdeepdish.com/
http://facebook.com/realdeepdish/

MAKING PIZZA AT HOME?
USE THE RIGHT TOOLS FOR THE JOB!
http://www.realdeepdish.com/deep-dish-equipment/

Offline Clive At Five

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 74
  • Location: Orange County, CA
  • I <3 pizza
    • Clive "At Five" Adams' Facebook -- Games, Tech, Politics  & more!
Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #402 on: December 16, 2010, 02:49:04 PM »
Might also be not enough water. Low humidity in the air could be stealing moisture from your dough.
Also, I usually add a few drops of oil to the dough before covering it for the rise so the dough doesn't dry out.

Great tip - will try.

Is it possible you over-kneaded?

Yes. :) I freaked out and added the flour in stages. I had too little faith. Next time, I will dump and go. ;D

Also, you can reduce the bready outer lip by just barely pressing the outer edge up.
For crust lip technique, watch Marc Malnati:

Thanks!

Many are trying to get a super-golden brown crust, but the texture is more important than the color.
Don't expect tender super-flaky, like you'd see from a pie or a puff pastry.
This crust is going to be closer to crispy/crumbly, like one of those pecan sandies cookies.
I've had many deep dish pizzas from Malnati's and Uno that are much lighter in color that some of the pizzas we bake in this forum.

My ideal pizza is, admittedly, a flakier almost pie-like crust. Having searched literally YEARS for a UNO's substitute, this appears at least to be the closest thing yet.

My crust DOES have the resemblance of a Pecan Sandy, although it is definitely CRUNCHIER than one... and not in the way one would like. While eating the leftovers today, I will definitely say that YES I believe I had too much dough. The cooked center of the pizza dough was nearly a half-inch thick. I don't care who you are, that's just too much. ;) Again, I think the kitchen scale will help me sort out this issue... and even if it doesn't, I'll know that I have too much dough and roll even thinner before panning and take out the excess.

I usually preheat my oven at 500 degrees and then turn it down to 450 right after I put the pizza in the oven.
I also highly recommend, if you don't have one, to get an oven thermometer (one that hangs off one of your oven racks)
to verify the temp of your oven.
You should be baking on the lowest rack of your oven, and then, like you mentioned,  if you want your toppings or the top of your crust to get more brown, you can definitely move the pizza to the top rack in the last 10 minutes of baking, but keep an eye on your pizza or things may start burning.

From the photos, it looks like you got pretty close. Nice Job!
How big was your pizza and how much time did you bake it in total?

I have a 14" Chicago Metallic Bakalon that I use. I baked it for maybe 35-40 mins... but like I said, it was already starting to crisp at about the 15-20 mark. I should really use a timer. :P I'll also see if I can get my hands on a thermometer.

Thanks very much for the feedback and suggestions!

-Clive
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 02:50:49 PM by Clive At Five »

Offline Clive At Five

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 74
  • Location: Orange County, CA
  • I <3 pizza
    • Clive "At Five" Adams' Facebook -- Games, Tech, Politics  & more!
Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #403 on: December 16, 2010, 03:22:12 PM »
Was reading back into this thread and found this:

To nitpick it a bit, I'm someone that likes to cook hotter and faster.  If I'm using my stone, I preheat it on the lowest rack (I have an exposed element) at 550* and drop to 475* when the pie goes in.  I don't cook a 14" much more than 20 mins.  Marc Malnati said in one of the many videos I've seen that he cooks until the sides pull away from the pan.  Now I've found that to be too soon to pull it but I don't leave it in much longer than that.  I like the crust when it's golden but not really browning too much.  I don't like it too dry.

Damn, by the 15-20 minute mark, my 14"-er was already pulled away from the edge. Could it be that my "425" is actually 475?? That would explain why my first attempt was practically destroyed by the heat. :o

Offline kerty9

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 8
Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #404 on: December 30, 2010, 11:37:40 PM »
Thanks BTB for this recipe, I followed your recipe on page 15, and Pizza came out almost perfect, not bad for my first try at it.

The only problem I ran into was that it came out too watery as slices were almost running. I had drained 6-1 tomatos for 5-7min, had sauted vegetables(mushroom, green peppers, spinach) and yet amount of water was excessive. I did not use any meat or sausage as I am vegetarian. Any suggestions how to avoid watery pizza?

Although my sauce came out tasty, I am not sure I had all the additives in correct portions. I did not know how much honey to add, how much oragno, garlic and basil to add. So I added only 1TBS of honey, about same 1TBS of Oragno, Garlic and Basil for 14' pie.  I would like to know how much I should add these things for optimum taste.

Lastly, you mentioned rotating the pie 180 degree half way during the baking. What does that do in a Gas oven? I can understand doing it in a wood/fire oven so that all sides get evenly cooked. In a gas oven, what does rotating pizza accomplish?

Again thanks for recipe and your tips, because of which, my family now thinks I am an expert Pizza-maker!

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline BTB

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 981
  • Location: Tampa Bay, FL & S.W. Mich. areas
Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #405 on: December 31, 2010, 09:44:12 AM »
Thanks K9.  Just some thoughts.  In your case we know the water issue is not caused by the dough or crust ingredients and we know its not the meat, cause there was none.  Nine out of 10 times an excessively watery pizza is caused by either the cheese or sauce, or sometimes wet vegetables or other toppings.  I drain the 6 in 1's for 10 to 15 minutes, but its "judgmental" and one should view it to ensure that you don't have too watery a can.  But generally not.
 
The cheese may be the source of the problem if it is of the "fresh" mozzarella kind (the delicious kind).  If not, "whole milk" cheese brands vary in quality and consistency and sometimes can give off too much water.  The usual kind for deep dish styles is "low moisture, part skimmed" cheese.  That's kind of the standard, altho I like to put little pieces of the fresh kind for variety from time to time, but then I risk getting a pizza for which the contents inside the pan move about too much making extraction of the pie from the deep dish pan a little more challenging or difficult.
 
I don't do much with vegetables (but my daughters do), but heard many others say here that they can also be the source of water in a pizza, so maybe others can comment on that.  I know there were comments in other threads on that, but can't locate them for the moment.  I am in your case suspecting that it is, but can't be certain.
 
On rotating the pizzas, all home ovens are notoriously uneven in the heating cavity, save for some super deluxe and expensive models, so with all style pizzas Peter and many of the real experts here always recommend rotating the pizza midway through the bake cycle, whether gas, electric, wood, coal or what-not.  Rotating 180 degrees just helps get an even bake of the pizza crust in most any home oven, gas, electric or otherwise.  Heck, some even rotate 3 or 4 times during the bake cycle.
 
Additives to the sauce can fill volumes of thread pages and I've turned around 180 degrees on this and am thinking at present (may change again next year) that less is more.  It is a very personal thing and all should do "trial and error" to determine what you and yours like the best.  I don't do exact portions and do the "wing-it" procedure.  To me that's generally pinches or brief shakes of various additives.  I think your 3 additives are excellent, but even for a large 14" I would be hesitant to add as much as 1 Tbs each of oregano and basil (2 of my favorites).  The Tbs of honey may be fine and I think that is a great thing to add to the tomato sauce. 
 
I know it's unorthodox, but I generally only add sugar or honey (and maybe a half to whole tsp of minced garlic) to the sauce while draining and stir it up a little.  After sufficiently drained, I put it onto the pizza (over the cheese and toppings) and THEN put pinches of oregano and basil on top of the sauce laying on the pizza (and then afterwards put on the parmesan or romano grated cheese).  In the case of a 14" pan, I'd probably do 2 to 3 pinches of each evenly as possible all over the pizza.  Now I know that's very imprecise and it wouldn't read well in a cook book, but its served me well and I advise others to experiment and see what they like best.  But in the few short years since I got into home pizzamaking, I've learned some hard lessons when making some great pizzas about "excessive spices and additives" that kind of ruined a whole day or two's work.  "Less is More."
 
Have fun with your pizzamaking, continue to let your family know that you are the expert pizzamaker, and let us know from time to time how things are going.
 
                                                                                                        --BTB

Offline BTB

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 981
  • Location: Tampa Bay, FL & S.W. Mich. areas
Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #406 on: January 06, 2011, 10:25:52 AM »
A nice review of Malnati's pizza on today's Slice at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/01/lou-malnatis-chicago-best-deep-dish-pizza.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+feedmeaslice+%28Slice%29 .

I agree with the final comment about " . . . it's one of the best deep dish pizzas known to man."
                                                                           --BTB

Offline kerty9

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 8
Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #407 on: January 14, 2011, 01:29:40 PM »
BTB

Thanks for excellent feedback and tips. I have not made this Pizza again since I posted here as I have been mostly making Margritta Pizza lately, but my family loved Pizza from your recipe, so I will be making it again soon.  Your feedback will certainly benefit my Pizza skills.

Offline kerty9

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 8
Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #408 on: January 24, 2011, 10:15:41 PM »
I followed BTB's recipe on page 15 with slight alterations for 14' pie. It came out perfect this time.

Dough
-------
345g   King Arther All Purpose Flour
115g   Bob's Red Mill Semolina
.9tsp   ADY
7.2Oz  water
2Tbs    butter/margerine
1.6tsp  sugar
5g       salt
2Tbs    Olive Oil
4Tbs    Corn Oil

Toppings:
---------
1lb      Mozz slices
1tsp    Dry Organo
8        Fresh Basil leaves
2        clove Garlic sliced
10       Mushrooms sliced
1/2      Green Pepper
1/3bag Spinach
2Tbs    Oil(for oiling the pan)
pinch    salt


Sauce
------
28oz    Can of  6-in-1 Tomato, Drained for 30min
3         peeled San Marzano Tomatos, chopped into smaller bits
5         clove Garlic, blended into a paste
2 Pinch Dry Oragno and Basil
1Tbs    honey
1Tbs    Red wine vinegar
1tsp    Freshly crushed black peppers

Preparation
=========

Dough Preparation - previous evening
-----------------
Mix warm water and ADY in a bowl that can be used for making dough
Weigh an empty bowl, and than add Semolina, and than AP Flour and than salt and than sugar as per their weight/measurements
warm up butter and let it cool


add oil and butter to the water and ADY mixture
add in flour gradually
knead it for 2-3min and make it into a dough ball
cover the dough ball in a well-oiled bowl & let it rest at room temp for 3hrs
(at this point, the dough ball would have risen by at lease 50% to 100%)
Punch it down and let it rest again at room temp for 3hrs
Punch it down and let it rest at room temperature for 2hours
put the bowl in a fridge overnight


Topping preparations:
-------------------------

Take 1-2t olive oil in a cooking pan and heat it medium heat
add all veggie toppings and stir fry them
add some salt so veggies release most of their water
Scoop out all the water released during stir fry using spoon
After spinach and veggies get little tender, place them on paper towel to remove all remaining moisture from veggies

Sauce Preparation
---------------------
drain 6-in-1 tomato for 30min, occasionally stirring it so all water drains out
add san marzano tomatoes, chopped into small pieces
add dry oragno, basil
add garlic and crushed black pepper
add wine vinegar(optional)
add honey
add salt

Make a Pie
------------

oil up a Pizza pan using a brush
Spread the dough over the pan
oil up pie before putting any toppings
Mozz cheese goes first
place garlic and basil so every piece gets a bite of it
add rest of the toppings
add sauce
sprinkle parmason cheese

Oven procedure
------------------

pre-heat at 500 for 30min
place the Pizza pan on a bottom rack
turn down temp to 450
after 15min, rotate the pan 180
after 25-28min, take out the pizza
let it cool for 4-5min before serving it

This was my second try at this pizza and it came out very good.


Offline doughboy55

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 92
Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #409 on: January 29, 2011, 12:56:53 PM »
Hey BTB I attempted to make your dough but i have a question i followed your initial instructions to the T but i was wondering does your dough rise in the 25 minutes that you instructed? I thought it took hours for it to rise. I'm a noobie and it's the first time i made pizza dough.

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline doughboy55

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 92
Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #410 on: January 29, 2011, 03:03:39 PM »
I have some questions regarding making your recipe for deep dish.
1. Before putting the dough aside would you say that your dough is a little dry? Or if so should i add a little bit more water to hydrate it more?
2.When you let the dough sit for the 25 minutes is the dough suppose to rise much?
3.After adding the butter and oils is your dough pretty wet and moist?
4. What would you recommend bake time and placement in oven for a 14 inch pie 2 inch deep 1.5 inch up the side.
Also would you mind if you could post some pictures of the dough as you make it. Like before you cover it, after you cover it and before you put it in the fridge? SORRY for all the questions im just really new at this...

I'm using this recipe
Flour (100%):  436.26 g  |  15.39 oz | 0.96 lbs
Water (45%):  196.32 g  |  6.92 oz | 0.43 lbs
ADY (.75%):  3.27 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.87 tsp | 0.29 tbsp
Salt (1%):  4.36 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.78 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):  26.18 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.82 tsp | 1.94 tbsp
Corn Oil (12%):  52.35 g | 1.85 oz | 0.12 lbs | 11.63 tsp | 3.88 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (6%):  26.18 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.53 tsp | 1.84 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):  6.54 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.64 tsp | 0.55 tbsp
Total (172.25%): 751.45 g | 26.51 oz | 1.66 lbs | TF = 0.126875
    *The Flour Blend can be (1) all KAAP flour, or (2) 80% KAAP (349 g/12.3 oz.) and
      20% semolina (87.25 g/3 oz.), or (3) 80% KAAP (349 g/12.3 oz.), 12% semolina
      (52.35 g/1.85 oz.) and 8% rice flour (34.9 g/1.23 oz.)
-Thanks
Matt
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 03:58:02 PM by doughboy55 »

Offline BTB

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 981
  • Location: Tampa Bay, FL & S.W. Mich. areas
Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #411 on: January 30, 2011, 08:50:12 AM »
Hey BTB I attempted to make your dough but i have a question i followed your initial instructions to the T but i was wondering does your dough rise in the 25 minutes that you instructed? I thought it took hours for it to rise. I'm a noobie and it's the first time i made pizza dough.
I don't recall ever suggesting just a 25 minute rise and let me know where you found that and I'll have that corrected.  Regarding proofing the dough, I usually transfer the dough ball to a slightly oiled bowl (turning the dough to get the ball oiled up a bit), wrap it with plastic wrap on top of the bowl, put it into a very slightly warmed oven (too warm will kill the yeast and dough rise), leave it in for from 45 to 60 minutes, take it out and knock down the dough ball and reform it, recover with the plastic wrap and either (1) leave it on the counter in a warm part of the kitchen for 6 to 10 hours if it will be "same day use dough" or (2) put it in a zip lock bag and into the refrigerator for a day or two if it will be "retarded" or later use dough.  If refrigerated, best to take out 2 hours prior to use to get to room temperature.  And also, I often put it back into the slightly warmed oven for another hour or so for a nice second rise.  ED- I see the last sentence can be confusing as I don't mean that after refrigeration, but only for "same day" dough.

Now the above is my preferred way of doing it.  But many of our members do things successfully in somewhat of a different manner, which probably shows that there's not just one right way.  For instance, many of our members do not let the dough rise and put it into the refrigerator right away.  I've successfully done that, but my preference is for at least one rise prior to refrigeration.

Welcome to our site.  Let me know if you have any other questions.  Opps, I just noted below that you do have some more questions and I'll take a look and respond to them, too.

                                                                                  --BTB
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 11:57:55 AM by BTB »

Offline doughboy55

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 92
Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #412 on: January 30, 2011, 10:34:37 AM »
Your first post in this thread said "I mixed the semolina and salt with the KAAP, but withheld 1/4 cup of the KAAP.  I added the water with the previously proofed ADY, mixed with a wooden spoon and by hand, covered and let rest for around 25 minutes in a warm part of the kitchen.  Then I added the rest of the flour along with the oil and the small amount of melted and cooled butter.  After kneading for a very short time (est. 1 min.), I found I needed a teaspoon or two more of KAAP, and then put the formed dough ball into a ziplock bag and into the refrigerator for 24 hours." Also what temperature what you recommend the oven be when proofing the dough?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 10:36:45 AM by doughboy55 »

Offline BTB

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 981
  • Location: Tampa Bay, FL & S.W. Mich. areas
Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #413 on: January 30, 2011, 12:08:18 PM »
You're right, Matt, and time and experience have moved on, but just a little bit.  It'll be good both ways, but my latest expressions right above I think are an improvement to earlier thoughts. 
I have some questions regarding making your recipe for deep dish.
1. Before putting the dough aside would you say that your dough is a little dry? Or if so should i add a little bit more water to hydrate it more?
2.When you let the dough sit for the 25 minutes is the dough suppose to rise much?
3.After adding the butter and oils is your dough pretty wet and moist?
4. What would you recommend bake time and placement in oven for a 14 inch pie 2 inch deep 1.5 inch up the side.

Regarding the dough being a ltitle dry, generally it is not, but if so, I would not add water as I prefer it that way.  But it is judgmental as to whether it is too dry. Just a drop or two if you feel it appropriate.  If it forms up nice on the edge of the deep dish pan, that's the way I love it (but if real, real stiff, then add a little bit of something).  Most deep dish enthusiasts complain the other way around that the sides of the dough in the deep dish pan will NOT stay up, which is another issue. 
 
In #3, however, you asked with butter and oil is the dough pretty wet and moist and my answer is generally no, but sometimes yes (and it's hard to explain why sometimes yes and no).  But when too oily, just add a little AP at a time until reduced the oily feel slightly (but not entirely).  I've come to prefer softening the butter a lot as opposed to melting it.  Too cold a butter, however, may lead to "overworking the dough" which is not good for deep dish style pizza.
 
Regarding your last question, it is not a simple one to answer for home oven application as so much depends on one's oven's characteristics, the style and kind of pan (shiny or not), and a number of other things.  Unfortunately, I have to revert to the old saying . . . trial and error are the best teachers.  In my oven (GE Profile electric with NO heating elements apparent), I would put a 14"pie, 2 inch deep, 1.5 inch up the side at between 450 degrees to 475 degrees F for anywhere from 35 to 55 minutes (big spread, I know) on the absolute botton rack, but most ovens with apparent heating elements should not.  I would "check" the bottom of the pizza with a tiny frosting spatula about 30 minutes to see the degree of doneness on the underside of the crust, and move up a level or two only if it appears too browned.  After much experience with your oven, you'll never have to do this again.  The key is . . . learning the tricks and things regarding one's oven . . . as simple as that seemingly sounds.  Remember, home ovens are entirely different from the big commercial ones.. 
 
Withholding flour, as suggested in many recipes is called "analylyse" and there are dozens of defiinitions of that term.  It will be advantageous when you get more experience under your belt to learn of the techniques (of which there are too many), but I suggest (regardless of your age) to pass on it for the time being and just mix without the withholding of flour.  Often times the experts found the difference to be "insignificant", but I think there is definite value.
 
I think I have some pictures of the dough ball as you asked, but am unsure and will search my many computer files for such.  I have a computer "up north" and a computer "down south" and am unsure where such may exist.  But in the meantime, your interest and enthusiasm is catchy and many of us are anxious to see the results of your trials and tribulations.   
 
I hope I've been a little helpful and that you will make your report on your successes (hopefully with pictures) and make us all excited to repeat and work from your successes and trials.  Best of luck.
 
                                                                                                   --BTB           :P

Offline doughboy55

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 92
Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #414 on: January 31, 2011, 12:13:20 PM »
What i noticed from when i made my pie is it came out not as thick as i was hoping for and was missing the crunch i was looking for. Not making excuses but it was my first dough and i have much room for improvement. Please critique the pie since that is the best way for me to improve don't pull any punches because i want to learn. One thing i learned was to make more sauce since i felt it was too little using only 1 can of crushed tomato's.  I also believe i didn't cook it long enough in the oven.
Also BTB for proofing the dough in the oven what temp would you recommend i use and what rack level would you recommend?

Here a link to the album
http://s1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc504/blizzgeek22/Chicago%20Deep%20Dish/

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline vcb

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 583
  • Location: Chicago
    • Real Deep Dish
Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #415 on: January 31, 2011, 12:24:56 PM »
What i noticed from when i made my pie is it came out not as thick as i was hoping for and was missing the crunch i was looking for. Not making excuses but it was my first dough and i have much room for improvement. Please critique the pie since that is the best way for me to improve don't pull any punches because i want to learn. One thing i learned was to make more sauce since i felt it was too little using only 1 can of crushed tomato's.  I also believe i didn't cook it long enough in the oven.
Also BTB for proofing the dough in the oven what temp would you recommend i use and what rack level would you recommend?

Here a link to the album
http://s1215.photobucket.com/albums/cc504/blizzgeek22/Chicago%20Deep%20Dish/


Just lookin' at the photos, it looks like you're on the money, except for the sausage being on top.
What makes you think you didn't cook it long enough?
How long did you bake it, and what temp?
-- Ed Heller -aka- VCBurger -- Real Deep Dish - Deep Dish 101
http://www.realdeepdish.com/
http://facebook.com/realdeepdish/

MAKING PIZZA AT HOME?
USE THE RIGHT TOOLS FOR THE JOB!
http://www.realdeepdish.com/deep-dish-equipment/

Offline doughboy55

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 92
Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #416 on: January 31, 2011, 02:04:56 PM »
Just lookin' at the photos, it looks like you're on the money, except for the sausage being on top.
What makes you think you didn't cook it long enough?
How long did you bake it, and what temp?

Yes the sausage was on top even after i layered the sauce on top because i had minimal sauce, it was a 14 inch pie and the 1 can of crushed tomatoes wasn't enough. I cooked it at 460 for 35 minutes on the lowest rack rotating 180 degrees every 10 minutes and then another 5 on the top rack.
I think it was slightly undercooked because the bottom of the pizza was a little sponge like is the best way to describe it. Maybe if i cook it on a stone it will fix this?
« Last Edit: January 31, 2011, 02:07:36 PM by doughboy55 »

Offline clg763

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 70
Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #417 on: January 31, 2011, 06:32:03 PM »
I have cooked both on and off a pizza stone, I typically have my best results without it. It looks like you may need to season your pan though. The outside of your pizza pan needs to be very dark otherwise it won't absorb as much radiant heat and brown the crust as well.

Offline vcb

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 583
  • Location: Chicago
    • Real Deep Dish
Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #418 on: January 31, 2011, 06:34:43 PM »
I have cooked both on and off a pizza stone, I typically have my best results without it. It looks like you may need to season your pan though. The outside of your pizza pan needs to be very dark otherwise it won't absorb as much radiant heat and brown the crust as well.

Try only rotating once, if at all, and leave it in for maybe 5-10 minutes more if you feel the need.

Also, springy bottom crust might just be a dough timing thing. You might need to punch it down more before you press it out into the pan.
-- Ed Heller -aka- VCBurger -- Real Deep Dish - Deep Dish 101
http://www.realdeepdish.com/
http://facebook.com/realdeepdish/

MAKING PIZZA AT HOME?
USE THE RIGHT TOOLS FOR THE JOB!
http://www.realdeepdish.com/deep-dish-equipment/

Offline BTB

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 981
  • Location: Tampa Bay, FL & S.W. Mich. areas
Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #419 on: February 01, 2011, 09:56:40 AM »
doughboy55,

Some excellent suggestions above by clg and vcb.  I would suggest, however, that it is generally advantageous in the average home oven to rotate 180 degrees at least once (but I, too, often do more).  Some of the premium oven models may not need such, but one quick opening of the oven door I hopefully don't think is tragic.  But if you do or you don't, I don't think it's critical.  What kind of oven do you use (gas, electric, etc)?
 
A couple of years ago, I, too, used to use a pizza stone, but I, too, have had the best results without it.  Not to say that with certain other style pizzas, use of a pizza stone may be appropriate. But if one wants to try it with a stone, that's perfectly acceptable. 

Your pictures showed an excellent looking pizza that -- like Ed said -- is "on the money."  I know pictures can be a little deceiving and the taste of the pizza cannot be clearly shown or appreciated in a picture.  The amount of sauce looked fine.  For a 14" I would estimate from about 15 to 20 oz. of crushed tomato sauce and that depends on one's preferences (for a little or alot).  What size of can and kind of crushed tomato's were you referring to.  The usual size can is a 28 oz. and that's usually too much for 14" pizza.  I know I have to answer your PM on the sauce, too.

I would have cooked the pizza longer as it appears to have too little browning, but many of our members prefer just a slight touch of golden browning. I just like to watch the pizza through the oven window and pull it out when the color is right, which is a rich, deeper brown color than yours.  But like clg mentioned above, I suspect the devil is the shiny pan that appears in your photo that may possibly be the culprit.

I dislike shiny or silvery colored pizza pans for pizzamaking.  And I know some -- but not many -- who like them.  I'm uncertain of your background, but have you been to Uno's/Due's, Gino's, Malnati's etc and seen the "blackened," seasoned pans that the pizzas come in?  You will never see a shiny pan in their restaurants.  I and many more on this site will support the use of darkened pans as opposed to the shiny or undarkened pans.  I don't have the detailed explanation about this at my fingertips, but others may be able to describe better the reason why darker colored pans are much better for pizzamaking than the shiny aluminum or silver colored ones. But it is basically around the thoughts that clg mentioned above in that the shiny exterior will reflect the heat rather than importantly absorbing the heat and transferring that heat to the interior of the pan.  This is a deep subject . . . for deep dish pizzas, however.  LOL.

For proofing in the oven, my GE Profile electric oven will tell me the digital low temperature, but most ovens will not, so a little guesstimating may be needed.  I do from 90 to 100 degrees F.  Suggest one put the oven on to the lowest setting (which is usually around 200 degrees F) but not wait till it warms up till then.  Instead, one to two minutes later, shut the oven off and that should be good for proofing the dough. There are other devices for proofing, but I've found a slightly warmed oven to be the simplest and best IMO.  Rack level for proofing is not important, but I do mid level.  Again, use of an oven safe bowl covered with plastic wrap is advised.  After a short time, one will see water droplets form on the plastic wrap, so use of added water somehow in the oven for this I have not found to be necessary.  As a teenager I worked at big bakeries, however, where steam was needed in the proofing closets.

Getting that crunch that you think you're missing is sometimes easier said than done.  Some suggest more oil (or crisco) in the pan.  Some say its a recipe issue.  Some suggest the lowest "practical" rack in the oven to bake it on (which I definitely do, but it depends on your oven).  Do you use an electric oven with heating elements that are apparent and "glow" on the bottom of the oven?  Mine isn't like that.  Another suggestion, that I occasionally tried a couple of months ago and was pleased with the results, is par baking the deep dish skin for 5 minutes or so prior to dressing and final bake.  Now I know that's not how it's done at the famous deep dish pizzerias, but we (or at least I) don't have a commercial oven and must use all kinds of alternative methods, tricks and ideas to try to get close to duplicating the effects of that very special commercial "deck" oven that we can't hope to ever duplicate entirely at home.  My taste testers (friends and family) tell me that they don't think it needs to be par baked as they love it without it, but I sometimes just like to experiment a little more to see if I can do it better.  And you will, too.

In any event, you seem to be nicely on the road to making some great deep dish pizzas and am looking forward to hearing more about your future successes.  Keep records of your formulations and other things, cause you'll be at a loss later to remember what you did that was good or not so good.

                                                                                                       --BTB

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


 

wordpress