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Author Topic: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina  (Read 282645 times)

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Offline Hdale85

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #500 on: November 10, 2011, 04:06:44 PM »
Do you use honey because it's a healthier alternative to cane sugar? Or is it a flavor thing?

Offline Hdale85

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #501 on: November 10, 2011, 04:26:39 PM »
I know this is probably in the thread somewhere, but I need a recipe for a 10" pie with 20% semolina.

Also how long do you guys generally let the dough rise for? I am using ADY yeast and will be cold rising. Is there a guide on here the order of which you generally add ingredients and what not? Or do you just throw it all in the bowl and mix then knead.

Offline Clive At Five

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #502 on: November 10, 2011, 07:00:45 PM »
I  think it's a flavor thing. Matches the acidic tomatoes better.

I'm on my iPhone, so I can't help you with a dough formulation, but look on page 25 for BTB's most recent ingredient grid. Input those numbers in the Deep Dish calculator (a link to the tool can be found on the main page). You'll have options for you pan diameter and edge height. I think he used a tf (thickness) of .125 and a bowl residue of 1.5% or so. It's better to err on the side of caution and make a little too much dough. Just keep in mind, you don't have to use every morsel. Those are often my worst crusts... Too thick. Get used to making your bottom crust a little thinner than you might think.

*As for the dough prep, the first thing I do is start proofing the yeast in warm water. In the meantime, I'll measure out the dry ingredients. (Remember, the you'll have to manually calculate the 80% AP flour and 20% Semolina.) Once the yeast has proofed for about 10 minutes, I add the oil (and, typically, butter, but this time, I'm going to try it last, like BTB suggested). First add a little of the flour mixture, just to get a batter started. Then add the rest of the dry goods into the wet and mix until _just_ combined. Well, that's my preference, but the more you work the dough, the tougher it will be. For some pizzas, you want that, but not Chicago Deep. IMHO.

I let it rise in a warm oven under some celophane (directly on the dough) so it doesn't dry out. Some people never seem to have that problem... Their ovens aren't as whack as mine. I'll let it go for an hour or two. Then I punch it down and put it in a plastic Zip-Lock overnight.

Remove from the fridge a couple hours before making the pizza. Cold dough doesn't cook well.

Good luck, take some pictures, and ENJOY!

*-Others with more experience than I will probably have better instructions, but I've made _decent_ deep dish using this method.

-Clive
« Last Edit: November 10, 2011, 07:03:56 PM by Clive At Five »

Offline Hdale85

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #503 on: November 10, 2011, 07:22:57 PM »
Thanks probably enough to get me started.

Offline Clive At Five

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #504 on: November 10, 2011, 08:41:33 PM »
NOTE: dough in the plastic ziplock goes in the FRIDGE. whoops.  :-D

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Offline Hdale85

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #505 on: November 10, 2011, 08:47:33 PM »
Yeah I figured as much haha! How long can you keep the dough in the fridge? Is it good for a few days? Or should I use it the next day?

Offline Clive At Five

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #506 on: November 10, 2011, 09:08:13 PM »
I usually don't let mine go for more than a couple days. BTB mentioned recently he let his go for three... There are some people who like to do lonnnnnnnnnng rises. In my humble opinion, the yeast flavor starts to take over after a two-day fridge-rise. But some people like that.

Offline BTB

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #507 on: November 11, 2011, 08:51:29 AM »
I think the sugar vs. honey is just a personal preference thing.  Try one and see if that is really good, if not, next time try the other.
 
. . . how long do you guys generally let the dough rise for? I am using ADY yeast and will be cold rising. Is there a guide on here the order of which you generally add ingredients and what not? Or do you just throw it all in the bowl and mix then knead.
There's a lot of good difference of opinion here and no one is wrong or right.  Depends on how one likes the results.  
 
While I'm intrigue about starting the process with the wet ingredients, I however put all the dry ingredients together in a bowl (after measuring out the weight of the major component -- i.e., AP flour) and mix together by hand (all the while I'm waiting about 10 minutes for my ADY in a small amount of slightly warmed water to foam up).  I then add the rest of the cool water and the ADY mixture (previously mixed in a small amount of that water), mix everything very briefly, then add the oils, then if I'm using it, the softened butter.  The last addition I do after the very last moment of a mixing of 20 to 40 seconds so that the softened butter does not get fully "incorporated" into the mixture.
 
Hereafter I follow one of two paths.  (1) Most common path is to let the dough rise in a very slightly warmed oven (90 degrees F approx.) for roughly an hour, then punched down, then into a zip lock bag and into the refrigerator for a day or two -- or do several more rises and use it the same day.  Or (2) After putting the mixture together and not waiting for a rise, I'll throw the dough ball into a zip lock bag and into a refrigerator for a day or two. One advantage of this latter approach if you are using softened butter is that the butter will remain much less incorporated in the mixture (which will be a good thing) than if it were allowed to soak into the dough during a warmed oven rise.  Always take out refrigerated dough for about 90 to 120 minutes before using.  As Clive indicated, cold dough makes for a not-so-good crust for deep dish pizza.
 
Using the Deep-Dish Dough Calculation Tool on this website, it took me less than 60 seconds to convert a formulation for a 9" diameter to a 10" diameter pizza.  And the recipe for the 10" is:
 
Flour Blend*(100%):  245.94 g  |  8.68 oz | 0.54 lbs
Water (45%):  110.67 g  |  3.9 oz | 0.24 lbs
ADY (.8%):  1.97 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.52 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Salt (1%):  2.46 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):  14.76 g | 0.52 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.28 tsp | 1.09 tbsp
Corn Oil (12%):  29.51 g | 1.04 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.56 tsp | 2.19 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (6%):  14.76 g | 0.52 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.12 tsp | 1.04 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):  3.69 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.93 tsp | 0.31 tbsp
Total (172.3%): 423.75 g | 14.95 oz | 0.93 lbs | TF = 0.126875
 
*The flour blend consists of 80% KAAP (approx. 197 g) and 20% semolina (49 g).  The proportions here can easily be increased or decreased depending upon one's personal likes and dislikes.
 
I think that the butter is best added at the last moment in the mixing cycle and should be very soft, but not melted.  To the pan add a little more than 1 Tbsp of OO, but Crisco or margarine is fine, too. And as Clive said, don't feel compelled to use all the dough as often times its appropriate to cut some off.  And the thickness of the deep dish crust is often not as thick as most people think.

And don't forget to tightly press or crimp the edge of the pizza roughly 1.5" up the sides of the pan.  If you seen my pictures on the previous page, they're rough and jagged, but that makes for a tasty pizza.  (Hope I'm not coming across like a "lecturer" here.)  And home oven technique is yet still another story.  You may want to consider the use of foil as discussed a lot elsewhere to avoid an undercooked pizza.
 
Good luck, hope you take pictures and share your experience with us.
 
                                                                                                        --BTB
 
P.S.  Here's one that I previously did with just using some good 6 in 1 sauce -- and probably a little more cheese than I normally use.  But as they say in Battle Creek, MI . . . it was great!

« Last Edit: November 15, 2011, 12:44:25 PM by BTB »

Offline Clive At Five

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #508 on: November 11, 2011, 10:55:14 AM »
BTB, your pizzas always look orgasmic.

It's a funny thing. Earlier this week, I had been trying to figure out how to make my pizza crusts flakier. I even tried a radical half-pie/half-pizza crust, prepped like a pie: cold shortening, ice-water, all that. It was indeed flaky, but too brittle... a very odd word to describe a pizza dough.

I feel silly about not realizing it now, that it's the "lamination" process that makes a crust flaky. I even worked for a bakery products manufacturer for a few years.... how could I have not made the connection?  :P

So anyway, I tried adding the softened butter last night... it was something I hadn't done before. But.... I got freaked out that I had this slippery ball of dough that wouldn't coalesce. I think I might have screwed the pooch and over-integrated. If I didn't pre-rise, I likely did in the punch-down, pre-fridge.

Would you be willing to give me a little more detail about how you treat your dough when you add butter last? Is it to "laminate" it? Do you try to baby it between the "laminating" and panning process? What is your post-rise punch-down like?

I appreciate it.

I've got a couple pies set for my James Bond night, tonight. Got a favorite Bond, anyone?

Offline Hdale85

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #509 on: November 11, 2011, 11:06:20 AM »
(Hope I'm not coming across like a "lecturer" here.)

Not at all very helpful!

I'm guessing the warm water you mix with the ADY is part of the total water? And you guys use Semolina dry correct? I saw on the package it talks about mixing it with water and it's ready in 5 minutes? But I can't imagine you do that for this.

I was actually going to download the calculator and what not to mess with today and try and get used to it. Thanks for doing that bit of work for me at least I can figure out if it's correct now. For now  I have to just use my silver deep pan that I normally use for cheese cakes. But I asked for some of the dark baking pans for Christmas so hopefully I get some haha. I know you guys say it won't turn out quite as well and that's ok as it's what I have for now.

I'm going to have to look for some of the info on oven technique because I haven't really cooked any sort of pizzas in my oven other then pre-made.

By the way! That pie looks fantastic. I hope mine can come close to that. Yesterday I purchased the ground pork and some other ingredients. So hopefully today I can get around to starting the prep work and get the dough ready and tomorrow night we will have pizza! Hopefully as long as it doesn't end in total disaster!  :-D

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Offline BTB

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #510 on: November 11, 2011, 07:34:58 PM »
Yes, warmed water was part of the total amount of water to add.  I often just measure out the appropriate total amount of water (using one of those "shot glass" types of  4 or 5 oz. glasses, pour out into another shot glass about 1 to 1 & 1/2 oz. of water, warm slightly in the microwave to 100 to 110 degree F (measured by thermometer), mix in the ADY and wait 10 minutes).  I've probably over simplified that I realize.  The rest of the water I often put in the refrigerator to get real cold, but that's not critical.  (And totally apart from that, I put a shot glass of some good scotch into a glass of ice with a tiny bit of water and consume separately but necessarily as part of this process. This is something one learns about only after retirement, tho. LOL)

Silver exterior pans are a no-no, however, but that's something only time and experience will teach.  You will eventually get the good kinds of pans (sizes 6", 9", 12" and other) with which to make various recipes of your great Chicago Style deep dish pizzas, if you're one of such styles' "aficionados."  Let me know if your wife needs some of Santa's recommendations here for the right kind of pans.

Hope your ground pork wasn't of the "breakfast grind" that some experience.  All sausage -- I think -- like Lithuanian, Polish, German, Italian, etc. is a somewhat more of a coarse grind rather that the fine grind that I've previously seen.  Some of our sausage makers on this website hopefully can add some words of wisdom here.  I'm sure that things will go well for you.  It's a learning process.

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« Last Edit: November 11, 2011, 07:39:19 PM by BTB »

Offline Hdale85

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #511 on: November 11, 2011, 09:51:39 PM »
Yeah I was going to go out to the meat place I use and have them coarse grind some pork but not much time this week so figure I'll try it with the stuff from the butcher at the local store. Not ideal and it'll likely not be quite right but that's ok. Eventually I'll just grind my own if I decide to continue making my own sausage.

Offline BTB

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #512 on: November 12, 2011, 09:18:05 AM »
Clive, there's really nothing special about my final mix of soft butter into the dough.  After getting a cohesive dough ball nearly (but not finally) together (maybe 10 or 12 seconds), I then add the softened butter, mix a little by hand, and don't fully blend it into the dough but instead leave it with still viewable streams, bits or lines of butter in parts of the dough ball.  In a crude sort of way, it is a little similar in result to the lamination process whereby butter is spread onto rolled out dough and folded over into layers, etc.  I've tried some of those lamination techniques and didn't find that they affected things much -- at least to me.  And the practice of slightly blending of soft butter into the dough seems to work fine IMO.  But this is only a practice that I've followed for the past year or so as previously I would add melted butter as many of our members here do.
 
None of the classic Chicago Style deep dish pizzerias use a lamination process.  Giordano's crust is somewhat flaky and I think that's because of a little lower hydration, as well as lower proportion of oil, and the fact that they liberally line their deep dish pans with lots of unsalted butter (and I'm learning that it really needs to be unsalted for reasons I have yet to understand) instead of olive oil.

With your dough ball, if before adding the softened butter, the dough seems too oily/slippery, try adding a little flour at a time to the point where it is much less so, not necessarily a dry ball, but much less so.  Then go on to add the butter.  Sometimes it's hard to describe exactly in a posting how some of these processes go.  If you can sometime, try doing two small pizzas -- one with having a dough rise after the final mix as you've done and one without a rise but instead throw it straight into the refrigerator for a day or two.  With the latter, you'll still see much solid streaks of butter when you pull it out of the refrigerator before use.  With the prior, most often one doesn't see much butter as it often blends into the dough when it rises, esp. in a slightly warmed oven.  Both are good, but a little different.  And some of our veteran members here are advocates of the straight to the refrigerator (no rise) technique (retarded dough).  Again, FWIW, which may be nothing.

As for Bond, Goldfinger and the movies prior to it were the best by far.
 
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Offline Hdale85

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #513 on: November 12, 2011, 06:12:21 PM »
Is it ok to use canolla oil? Or all olive oil? In place of the corn oil. We usually get Canolla instead of corn.

Offline BTB

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #514 on: November 12, 2011, 06:43:17 PM »
Is it ok to use canolla oil? Or all olive oil? In place of the corn oil. We usually get Canolla instead of corn.
In my opinion, no.  I haven't found canola oil to be a good fit for most deep dish pizzas, but there are some who use it.  If it were me, I'd use all olive oil (and not extra virgin) if I didn't have any corn oil which is the oil of choice for most deep dish recipes, esp. Malnati's.  But you can try it and see if you like it with some canola oil.

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Offline Hdale85

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #515 on: November 12, 2011, 07:26:12 PM »
Ok, well I went ahead and used the canola as I wasn't sure if there was some other reason for not going all olive. Got the dough together and it's in the oven now for an hour around 100 degrees. I had to preheat the oven to 170 and then let it sit for a while to drop down. Hopefully it turns out good though! There's some globs of butter here and there as I didn't want to incorporate it too much like you mentioned. After it's been in there an hour going to punch it down and put the lid on the container and store it in the fridge until tomorrow night. Will work on the sausage later tonight.

Is it ok to make the sauce the night before? Or do you usually make it right before you assemble the pizza? I imagine the flavors would blend together more if doing it the night before and not sure if that's the kind of flavor you guys normally go for or not.

Offline Jasonk

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #516 on: November 12, 2011, 08:42:23 PM »

P.S.  I just noticed some of your earlier postings.  Chicago Style deep dish usually involves use of AP flour, not the high gluten flour or 00 that you indicated using.  That could substantially change the mixing time variable.

Thanks BTB.  My oil test last week was a success, so I'll be upping that a bit...probably to the 15% range. 

Sadly, I there's no such thing as AP flour here.  I was in Hawaii a few weeks ago and really liked the pies I made there, much better texture with the AP flour than what I can get here.  I also removed the Caputo 00 and reduced the higher gluten Japanese flour from 60% to 20% in favor of a lower gluten main and had good results.

Offline BTB

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #517 on: November 13, 2011, 12:59:24 PM »
. . . I had to preheat the oven to 170 and then let it sit for a while to drop down. Hopefully it turns out good though! Is it ok to make the sauce the night before? Or do you usually make it right before you assemble the pizza?
"To make the pizza sauce in advance or not (and/or cook it), . . . that is the question" . . . Shakespeare once said (or was it Joe the Butcher?).  We'd probably have dozens of opinions here.  I swear in the few years that I've started with this pizzamaking, I haven't noticed much of a difference, but for sauce aficionados, they probably would definitely like to make it in advance and cook it.  I don't do much in advance and like all the classic Chicago Style deep dish pizzerias that I'm familiar with, I do NOT cook the sauce ever.  It cooks more than enough while the pizza is baking in the typical longer bake cycle for the Chicago deep dish style or even many or most midwest style thin crust pizzas.  But this question could stir a lot of controversy here, I'm afraid.
 
Everyone does things differently, and in time, you will, too.  But what I do very simply is while the 6 in 1's (or similar) are draining, I'll add and mix a bit of salt, pepper, garlic (preferably minced, but sometimes just powdered), onion powder and maybe one or two more things (reluctantly), but after dressing the pizza, I then "pinch" on (sometimes liberally) some oregano and/or basil before or after some good grated cheese.
 
But bear in mind that I characterize mine as the "purist" approach.  Others who do the "purist PLUS" approach may add everything but the kitchen sink with their pizza and pizza sauce.  But in some of our group pizzamaking ventures, I can't begin to tell you how many times I've heard . . . "oh, but I liked your pizza the best!. The sauce was rich and delicious and not overwhelming."  But differences make the world go around, right?  What to do is . . .  your call . . .
 
Regarding the over-heating of the oven for dough rising, I can't begin to tell you how many times I've done that, too.  Open the oven door completely for 10 to 15 minutes with the oven off and that should do it -- being mindful of pets, children and spouses who may ignore the open hot door.
                                                                                
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« Last Edit: November 13, 2011, 01:12:22 PM by BTB »

Offline Hdale85

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #518 on: November 13, 2011, 02:56:07 PM »
One more question, how much should the dough actually rise in the fridge? It doesn't look like it's changed much overnight.

Offline Clive At Five

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Re: Malnati Deep Dish with Semolina
« Reply #519 on: November 13, 2011, 03:17:14 PM »
Mine don't typically change a whole lot overnight. I usually try to squeeze as much air out of the bag before I put it in. That way I can see how much gas those little buggers produce. Pretty astounding when you think of how little yeast you actually put in there...

-Clive

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