Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => New York Style => Topic started by: norma427 on March 06, 2014, 11:12:13 AM

Title: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 06, 2014, 11:12:13 AM
I recently read a thread on PMQ think tank about More flavour in dough at http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/more-flavour-in-the-dough.14995/ (http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/more-flavour-in-the-dough.14995/)  Since PMQ think tank has recently been changed this is what Tom Lehmann posted since I can't not get the direct link to what Tom posted.

Mike;
Here's another approach that I've had good success with in small stores. Get a 30-gallon plastic barrel with a lid approved for food contact. For a 50# flour basis dough size, make a sponge using 30# of flour, 15 to 16# of water (cold) and 0.75-ounce of instant dry yeast. Place these ingredients in the mixing bowl and mix at low speed for about 7-minutes then transfer to the barrel which has been lightly oiled inside. Cover and set aside to ferment overnight. I recommend making the sponge each night just before closing. The sponge will be ready to use on the following day. To make your dough, transfer the fermented sponge to the mixer, add 20# of flour, 14-ounces of salt, 12-ounces of sugar (optional), 2-ounces of instant dry yeast, 13 to 14-pounds of water (75F), 16-ounces of olive oil. Mix at low speed for 2-minutes without the oil, then add the oil and mix just until you achieve a smooth dough consistency/satiny appearance. You are looking for a finished dough temperature of 80 to 85F. After mixing immediately scale and ball, place into dough boxes, wipe the dough balls with a little salad oil, and place in a reach in cooler for at least 2-hours before using. The dough will keep all day in the reach in. Just be sure to stagger/off set the boxes as you place them in the reach in to allow for more effective cooling. After about 2-hours the boxes can be nested to prevent drying. This process gives a finished crust with improved flavor over same day dough and it is about as close to bullet proof as one can get.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

And

Mike;
One of the things that we commonly do is to make a master sponge which is nothing more than a sponge that is large enough to be divided between a number of doughs. Now, every time you make a dough during the day you just add the correct weight of sponge to the dough and you will get an improvement in flavor with each of the doughs. Sponges are very tolerant to variations in fermentation time so you don't have much if any variation in flavor due to differences in sponge age over the course of the day.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Is Tom's sponge method an easy one to convert for smaller dough batches other than 50 lb. of flour?

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 06, 2014, 12:50:12 PM
Is Tom's sponge method an easy one to convert for smaller dough batches other than 50 lb. of flour?

Norma
Norma,

The math isn't difficult but it all has to be done longhand with pencil and paper since none of the dough calculating tools can do all of the calculations required by Tom's sponge method. That means that anytime you want to change anything, all of the calculations will have to be redone by hand.

FYI, using the top part of the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html), this is what the Total Formula looks like, without any bowl residue compensation:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (60%):
Salt (1.75%):
IDY (0.34375%):
Olive Oil (2%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Total (165.59375%):


22680 g  |  800 oz | 50 lbs
13608 g  |  480 oz | 30 lbs
396.9 g | 14 oz | 0.88 lbs | 23.7 tbsp | 1.48 cups
77.96 g | 2.75 oz | 0.17 lbs | 8.63 tbsp | 0.54 cups
453.6 g | 16 oz | 1 lbs | 33.6 tbsp | 2.1 cups
340.2 g | 12 oz | 0.75 lbs | 28.44 tbsp | 1.78 cups
37556.66 g | 1324.75 oz | 82.8 lbs | TF = N/A
To use the above to complete the rest of the exercise, you would have to subtract the amounts of ingredients used to make the Preferment (sponge) from the values given in the Total Formula set forth above to arrive at the amounts of the ingredients to be used to make the Final Dough. All of the quantities are scalable to any dough ball weight you want but all of the math has to be done by hand.

BTW, in coming up with the above formulation, I used 16 pounds of water for the Preferment portion and 14 pounds of water for the Final Dough. Tom's recipe actually has four different amounts of water that can be used. You would have to decide which pair of water quantities you want to use. The above formulation also assumes regular salt, not Kosher salt.

Peter

Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 06, 2014, 01:58:45 PM
Norma,

The math isn't difficult but it all has to be done longhand with pencil and paper since none of the dough calculating tools can do all of the calculations required by Tom's sponge method. That means that anytime you want to change anything, all of the calculations will have to be redone by hand.

FYI, using the top part of the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html), this is what the Total Formula looks like, without any bowl residue compensation:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (60%):
Salt (1.75%):
IDY (0.34375%):
Olive Oil (2%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Total (165.59375%):


22680 g  |  800 oz | 50 lbs
13608 g  |  480 oz | 30 lbs
396.9 g | 14 oz | 0.88 lbs | 23.7 tbsp | 1.48 cups
77.96 g | 2.75 oz | 0.17 lbs | 8.63 tbsp | 0.54 cups
453.6 g | 16 oz | 1 lbs | 33.6 tbsp | 2.1 cups
340.2 g | 12 oz | 0.75 lbs | 28.44 tbsp | 1.78 cups
37556.66 g | 1324.75 oz | 82.8 lbs | TF = N/A
To use the above to complete the rest of the exercise, you would have to subtract the amounts of ingredients used to make the Preferment (sponge) from the values given in the Total Formula set forth above to arrive at the amounts of the ingredients to be used to make the Final Dough. All of the quantities are scalable to any dough ball weight you want but all of the math has to be done by hand.

BTW, in coming up with the above formulation, I used 16 pounds of water for the Preferment portion and 14 pounds of water for the Final Dough. Tom's recipe actually has four different amounts of water that can be used. You would have to decide which pair of water quantities you want to use. The above formulation also assumes regular salt, not Kosher salt.

Peter

Peter,

I thought the calculations would have to be done longhand with paper and pencil for Tom's sponge method.   :-D

Thanks for using the preferment dough calculating tool to show what the total formula looks like without any bowl residue compensation.  If I can get things figured out longhand with paper and pencil I would like to try the formulation I posted at Reply 1805 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg304434#msg304434 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg304434#msg304434) using Kosher salt.  I would just like to see if that gives my boardwalk style dough any better flavor in the crust.  I am not sure if I can complete the rest of the exercise from the values given in the Total Formula set forth to arrive at the amounts of ingredients to be used in the Final Dough.  I would like to try a 5 dough ball batch.  I did not catch the part about Tom's recipe actually having four different amounts of water that can be used.  What amount of water do you think would be best to try?  Could I try what I am now using?

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 06, 2014, 02:36:12 PM
Norma,

In Tom's recipe, he calls for 15 to 16 pounds of water for the sponge and 13 to 14 pounds of water for the final dough. You will have to decide on what set of values you would want to use if you were to use Tom's recipe.

As an alternative to using Tom's recipe, where you seem to be leaning, you can use the Boardwalk formulation you referenced and adapt it to use a sponge. The sponge used by Tom has a hydration of around 53% and represents about 92% of the total formula flour. You could use the same percents or else you can follow the recommendations discussed in the Didier Rosada article at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm). Technically, I believe that Tom's sponge is more like a biga because of its lower hydration value than is typically used for a sponge, based on the Rosada article.

There is no one way that is best or right. Once you decide on which way you would like to go, maybe I can help you with an initial formulation to try.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 06, 2014, 04:03:14 PM
Norma,

In Tom's recipe, he calls for 15 to 16 pounds of water for the sponge and 13 to 14 pounds of water for the final dough. You will have to decide on what set of values you would want to use if you were to use Tom's recipe.

As an alternative to using Tom's recipe, where you seem to be leaning, you can use the Boardwalk formulation you referenced and adapt it to use a sponge. The sponge used by Tom has a hydration of around 53% and represents about 92% of the total formula flour. You could use the same percents or else you can follow the recommendations discussed in the Didier Rosada article at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm). Technically, I believe that Tom's sponge is more like a biga because of its lower hydration value than is typically used for a sponge, based on the Rosada article.

There is no one way that is best or right. Once you decide on which way you would like to go, maybe I can help you with an initial formulation to try.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me in Tom's recipe how much water is used in the sponge and final dough.  I see there are differences.  Between the 15 to 16 pounds of water for the sponge and the 13 to 14 pounds of water for the final dough sure are differences. 

I recall when I used Tom's method for making a biga for the preferment Lehmann dough.  I don't know what I did wrong there but did not like the results.  I think if I recall right the final dough was too dry.

I think after looking at Didier Rosada's article on a sponge I would like to try Didier's way of creating a sponge for the boardwalk style dough.  I never did get that straightened out what the differences were between a biga and sponge.  I see Didier's method says the absorption of the sponge is around 60-63% and says it is a stiff dough.  I also see it should be used after full maturation and there are clues to tell when it is ready for incorporation into the final dough.  I guess that also is a tricky part to get right and not adversely affect the strength of the dough, or maybe the dough might not have proper acid development.  I see Didier says a sponge using minimal yeast and an overnight fermentation offers the baker a longer period of time between under-maturation and over-maturation.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: pythonic on March 06, 2014, 07:17:07 PM
What is the difference between a sponge and poolish?
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 06, 2014, 07:26:53 PM
What is the difference between a sponge and poolish?
Nate,

A classic poolish has equal weights of flour and water and, hence, an absorption (hydration) of 100%. By contrast, a classic sponge has an absorption of around 60-63%. You can read more about these two forms of preferments in the Didier Rosada article at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm).

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 07, 2014, 09:19:39 AM
Norma,

Can you give me an idea as to the temperature that would exist at market when you would make the sponge preferment? And, also, what duration would you want to use for the sponge preferment before incorporating it into the final mix?

I raise the above questions because any preferment you make at market will always be at the mercy of the amount of yeast used in the preferment and the temperature at which the preferment is held until used to finish the dough. I suspect that Tom's sponge recipe and methods were intended for a more stable temperature environment, such as exists, for example, in a typical enclosed pizzeria. Also, I suspect that his version of the sponge was more like a biga because it is of a lower hydration than the classical poolish or sponge preferments and there is no break point to speak of with a biga as there is for a poolish or sponge. That makes a biga less temperature and time sensitive. As a practical matter, what this may mean is that any sponge you make will be what it will be and you will have to adjust the final mix to compensate for any shortcomings in the sponge and hope you end up with a product that can be repeated consistently to get the desired end results.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 07, 2014, 10:48:49 AM
Norma,

Can you give me an idea as to the temperature that would exist at market when you would make the sponge preferment? And, also, what duration would you want to use for the sponge preferment before incorporating it into the final mix?

I raise the above questions because any preferment you make at market will always be at the mercy of the amount of yeast used in the preferment and the temperature at which the preferment is held until used to finish the dough. I suspect that Tom's sponge recipe and methods were intended for a more stable temperature environment, such as exists, for example, in a typical enclosed pizzeria. Also, I suspect that his version of the sponge was more like a biga because it is of a lower hydration than the classical poolish or sponge preferments and there is no break point to speak of with a biga as there is for a poolish or sponge. That makes a biga less temperature and time sensitive. As a practical matter, what this may mean is that any sponge you make will be what it will be and you will have to adjust the final mix to compensate for any shortcomings in the sponge and hope you end up with a product that can be repeated consistently to get the desired end results.

Peter

Peter,

As I think you might already know there is no way I can predict what the ambient temperatures will be at market when I would make the sponge preferment.  One time the temperatures might be around 39 degrees F and maybe the next time I go into market the temperature might be 70 degrees F or much higher.

I understand any preferment made at market will always be at the mercy of the amount of yeast used in the preferment and the temperature at which the preferment will be held until used to finish the dough.  I also believe Tom methods were intended for a more stable temperature environment.  I understand that Tom's sponge method was more like a biga because it is a lower hydration than the classical poolish or sponge preferments and there is no break point to speak of with a biga as there are with a poolish or sponge.  I can understand how that makes a biga less temperature and time sensitive. 

I guess I really won't try the sponge method out for market because of the variable conditions there.  I had just wanted to see if using a sponge method would give a better taste to the crust than I now am getting.  I sure would not be able to adjust the final mix to compensate for any shortcoming in the sponge.  I had just thought about starting the sponge at home on a Sunday to incorporate into a final dough on Monday to just see if there or any taste or texture difference in the final crust.  I guess I will cross off this experiment, because already I understand too much work would have to be done on your part.

Thanks for helping me understand more though.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 07, 2014, 01:57:02 PM
Norma,

I don't mind giving it a try. In fact, it might be an interesting exercise. I just wanted you to know what the issues are. I think the major adjustment at the final mix stage would be the amount of yeast. Specifically, in cold weather, you would use more yeast, and in warm weather, you would use less. It would take experience in assessing the state of the sponge at the time of intended use--most likely how it looks--and how to modify or adjust for it from a yeast quantity standpoint. It would be somewhat a seat of the pants sort of thing with no math involved.

Can you tell me what the market temperature is this time of year? And what flour, type of oil, and type of salt you would be using?

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Doug H on March 07, 2014, 04:01:29 PM
I have been struggling for quite some time to find out what elements produce the most flavor in dough. Lately I have been going with a one day poolish. I'm wondering if a sponge would make more, or less flavor?

There has to be some secret that artisan bakers know that boosts basic bread to the next level. Autolyze? Long cold ferment? Sourdough? What else? I just got Ken Forkish's book, so I may be close to THE answer (or, maybe, AN answer). (His pizza is amoung the best!)
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 07, 2014, 06:15:06 PM
Norma,

I don't mind giving it a try. In fact, it might be an interesting exercise. I just wanted you to know what the issues are. I think the major adjustment at the final mix stage would be the amount of yeast. Specifically, in cold weather, you would use more yeast, and in warm weather, you would use less. It would take experience in assessing the state of the sponge at the time of intended use--most likely how it looks--and how to modify or adjust for it from a yeast quantity standpoint. It would be somewhat a seat of the pants sort of thing with no math involved.

Can you tell me what the market temperature is this time of year? And what flour, type of oil, and type of salt you would be using?

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for saying you don't mind giving a sponge in the boardwalk formulation a try.  Thanks also for telling me you think the major adjustment at the final mix stage would be the amount of yeast.  I can understand in cold weather more yeast would be needed than in warmer weather.  I really don't know how a sponge should look to be able to assess when it would be ready. 

To tell you the current temperatures at market for this last week Monday was about 39 degrees F and today when I went to market the temperature was 50 degrees F.  Of course Tuesday's are always warmer because the heaters are turned on more.  It is also getting a little warmer in our area so if I would have to guess at a temperature at market it would be between 45-50 degrees F.

I am using Full Strength flour now, the type of oil is Lira Olive Pomace Oil at http://www.webstaurantstore.com/lira-olive-pomace-oil-1-gallon-tin/101OLIVEPOMT.html (http://www.webstaurantstore.com/lira-olive-pomace-oil-1-gallon-tin/101OLIVEPOMT.html) and I Morton's Kosher salt. 

Norma 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on March 07, 2014, 06:19:09 PM
Norma and I have been feverishly corresponding back and forth on this subject.  I learned years ago in my bakery experience that making a yeast/flour/water preferment the night before would add more flavor to breads.  I have experimented with this lately because our business is picking up so fast that I can no longer do daily 3-5 day ferments in the fridge due to lack of space.  I can still fit 1-2 day ferments and Friday we make dough for Monday.  I have tried using our sourdough starter for a 1 day dough but found the flavor to be too sourdoughish for my taste.  My first experiment with the night before preferment/starter/biga or whatever you want to call it had too much yeast and created a very yeasty taste.  No one seemed to notice it but I sure did.  The cool part was it brought back tastes that I remember from the 60's eating pizza in NJ.  It was a much similar in flavor, although too strong, of the same day doughes I grew up with.  It was  very light colored rim/undercrust and not very good looking IMO.  After bouncing back and forth with Norma I cut way back on the preferment yeast amount for todays dough.   

Here are the results and I have to say they were impressive.  I added oil/sugar to the dough at the levels Norma uses.   We were very busy today - 40 pizzas in 3 hours, several hundred bagels, 15 pounds of dog biscuits, large french baguette order for a caterer, about 600 cookies we sell to 2 school districts, a local entrepenur who is opening a soul food restaurant came in to discuss hiring some of my students, a call from a Columbus gluten free pizza company owner........

Once I had mixed/balled the preferment with the remaining flour, water, IDY, salt, oil, sugar, I put it in the fridge figuring at the end of the day I would play around with it.  I forgot about it till we were near out of dough and more orders were coming in.  I checked the fridge to see if we had any dough left and it was the only dough left.  It didn't  have time to warm up/finish its rise properly.  I had a good deal of trouble opening it and getting it to size and it bubbled up quite a bit.  With a longer room temp rise depending on room temp and if it was put in fridge, it should be easier to work with I think. I will try it again next week. 

I left the breakdown between preferment and final ingredients at work.  It made 6-20 oz dough balls with enough left over to make a small pizza bread that my kids love.  I can post the formula Monday if anyone is interested.  Thanks Norma for responding to my many posts.  You got me thinking oil again.  I had dropped it from my sauce and dough a ways back.  I love experimenting with eyeballing things and that was what this experiment was.  Luckily I weighed everything pretty close and wrote it down :)  Walter

the pictures are from an extremely rushed scene. I would have cooked this pie a bit longer in retrospect but such is life in the fast lane!
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 07, 2014, 06:46:21 PM
Walter,

Thanks so much for posting the pictures of your pies with a preferment.  They look picture perfect to me!  The rim crust looks so appetizing and your bottom crust is spot on.  :chef:  I enjoyed seeing your preferment.  You did a great job on figuring out what you did by yourself.  ;D I will be anxious to see what you used for the preferment and final dough.  Great to hear that that it brought back tastes you remembers in the 60's eating pizza in NJ.  I could dive into one of your slices right now.

I enjoyed corresponding with you.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on March 07, 2014, 08:02:57 PM
thanks Norma!  You inspire me with your go for it drive to conquer so many different styles of pizza. It makes me remember there are no rules and that makes it fun.  I will post the numbers Monday.  Walter 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 07, 2014, 08:25:25 PM
thanks Norma!  You inspire me with your go for it drive to conquer so many different styles of pizza. It makes me remember there are no rules and that makes it fun.  I will post the numbers Monday.  Walter

Thanks to you too Walter!  What you do in your classroom also inspires me.  Thanks for saying you will post the numbers on Monday.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 07, 2014, 08:34:37 PM
Norma,

What usually dictates the amount of yeast to be used in a preferment such as a sponge or poolish is the amount of yeast used in the sponge or poolish. For example, if you look at the formulation I used at Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6515.msg62814#msg62814 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6515.msg62814#msg62814), you will see that I put all of the formula yeast (almost 1.4%) into the sponge (actually the sponge was between a classic sponge and a poolish, which is I why I put the word sponge in parentheses in the second line of the post). With all of the yeast in the sponge, it took only three hours for the sponge to peak and collapse on itself, as is shown in one of the photos. Eventually, the dough ball went into the refrigerator for almost two days but the high amount of yeast in the sponge still had its effect on the fermentation of the dough ball.

For an example on the other end of the spectrum, you will see from the formulation I used in Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6515.msg56131#msg56131 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6515.msg56131#msg56131), that I used only 1/32 teaspoon of IDY in the poolish preferment. And it took about 15 hours for the poolish to become noticeably active.

What I have been thinking about for your situation is something like what I did in Reply 4 referenced above but using a sponge instead of a poolish and, at the same time, trying to adapt everything to your market temperature of 45-50 degrees F and a contemplated 15 hour prefermentation period (unless you would like some other time period). That is where the heavy math comes in. In this vein, I would be guided by Didier Rosada's work as discussed in the article at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm) and also tying in some of member November's work. Unfortunately, the Rosada article referenced above does not show the peaking and collapsing of the sponge or poolish (although I show the phenomenon in the photo in Reply 28 referenced above). The original Rosada article no longer is available on the Internet. I retrieved the article from the Wayback Machine archives.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 07, 2014, 09:03:00 PM
Norma,

What usually dictates the amount of yeast to be used in a preferment such as a sponge or poolish is the amount of yeast used in the sponge or poolish. For example, if you look at the formulation I used at Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6515.msg62814#msg62814 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6515.msg62814#msg62814), you will see that I put all of the formula yeast (almost 1.4%) into the sponge (actually the sponge was between a classic sponge and a poolish, which is I why I put the word sponge in parentheses in the second line of the post). With all of the yeast in the sponge, it took only three hours for the sponge to peak and collapse on itself, as is shown in one of the photos. Eventually, the dough ball went into the refrigerator for almost two days but the high amount of yeast in the sponge still had its effect on the fermentation of the dough ball.

For an example on the other end of the spectrum, you will see from the formulation I used in Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6515.msg56131#msg56131 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6515.msg56131#msg56131), that I used only 1/32 teaspoon of IDY in the poolish preferment. And it took about 15 hours for the poolish to become noticeably active.

What I have been thinking about for your situation is something like what I did in Reply 4 referenced above but using a sponge instead of a poolish and, at the same time, trying to adapt everything to your market temperature of 45-50 degrees F and a contemplated 15 hour prefermentation period (unless you would like some other time period). That is where the heavy math comes in. In this vein, I would be guided by Didier Rosada's work as discussed in the article at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm) and also tying in some of member November's work. Unfortunately, the Rosada article referenced above does not show the peaking and collapsing of the sponge or poolish (although I show the phenomenon in the photo in Reply 28 referenced above). The original Rosada article no longer is available on the Internet. I retrieved the article from the Wayback Machine archives.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for your link to where you used the sponge that collapsed fast from the high amount of yeast (that was between a classic sponge and a poolish) and your link to where you tried the poolish preferment with a small amount of yeast in JerryMac's dough.  Could you say offhand which pizza was better in the taste of the crust?

I don't know how you are going to figure all the math out to set-forth a sponge formulation and a final dough for me to try in addition to trying to adapt it for market.  If you can, I sure would be interested in seeing if it would give a better flavor. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on March 08, 2014, 07:48:33 AM
Norma:  My room is usually around the mid 60's this time of year in the overnight hours and my preferement rises fine.  I didn't take the water temp. I did turn the hot tap on a bit because our cold water temp is in the 40's.  Didn't I read somewhere you have a warming box?  If not you can try this and I am sure you know about it already. Put the preferment inside a box( a cardboard box might work just fine) with a lightbulb on- just a cheap standard hanging light extension cord you can buy at home depot or one that will hold an oven light size bulb is ideal for an insulated set up.  Once I built the box out of rigid insulation that was held together with blue masking tape so it could be taken apart/put together in a minute with no damage to the foam.  We use these kind of boxes to cure epoxy for the fusalages and fiberglass sheeted wings that my friends and I build for radio controlled gliders.  I had to drill large holes in it that could be covered/uncovered to adjust the heat for the baking box but I think now there are cheap thermostadt controllers for the light bulb?  A large cooler with a pan of hot water can work great too. When I smoke meats for a large party I store them in a cooler until serving.  Without opening/closing the cooler until use, the meat stays hot for hours.  With the foam you will be amazed at how low a wattage bulb you will need.   It may work just fine till the warmer nights of spring/summer comes and just water temp adjustments will allow it to sit out.  I would also try my formula sitting out on your shop counter with warm water and see what happens just for the heck of it. Walter

 PS:  One more idea??  Couldn't you make the preferment at home the day before and then bring it to market on your day, mix, ball, and see how long it takes to rise for baking?.  But do you really need all these new experiment ideas to scramble your mind :)
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 08, 2014, 08:44:00 AM
Norma:  My room is usually around the mid 60's this time of year in the overnight hours and my preferement rises fine.  I didn't take the water temp. I did turn the hot tap on a bit because our cold water temp is in the 40's.  Didn't I read somewhere you have a warming box?  If not you can try this and I am sure you know about it already. Put the preferment inside a box( a cardboard box might work just fine) with a lightbulb on- just a cheap standard hanging light extension cord you can buy at home depot or one that will hold an oven light size bulb is ideal for an insulated set up.  Once I built the box out of rigid insulation that was held together with blue masking tape so it could be taken apart/put together in a minute with no damage to the foam.  We use these kind of boxes to cure epoxy for the fusalages and fiberglass sheeted wings that my friends and I build for radio controlled gliders.  I had to drill large holes in it that could be covered/uncovered to adjust the heat for the baking box but I think now there are cheap thermostadt controllers for the light bulb?  A large cooler with a pan of hot water can work great too. When I smoke meats for a large party I store them in a cooler until serving.  Without opening/closing the cooler until use, the meat stays hot for hours.  With the foam you will be amazed at how low a wattage bulb you will need.   It may work just fine till the warmer nights of spring/summer comes and just water temp adjustments will allow it to sit out.  I would also try my formula sitting out on your shop counter with warm water and see what happens just for the heck of it. Walter

 PS:  One more idea??  Couldn't you make the preferment at home the day before and then bring it to market on your day, mix, ball, and see how long it takes to rise for baking?.  But do you really need all these new experiment ideas to scramble your mind :)

Walter,

Thank you for telling me what your room temperature was, what you did with your water to get it a little warmer this time of the year and telling me that overnight your preferment rises fine.  I wonder what your preferment really is.  Your preferment looks rather stiff to me.  Is that right?  I guess I mean is your preferment really a sponge, or somewhere between a sponge and a poolish.  Your are more the baker in terms of preferments than I am.  I do having a warming unit that I use to temper my Detroit style doughs and did use that same warming unit to make the poolish for the preferment Lehmann dough.  This is what the Hatco warming cabinet looked like before I took it to market at Reply 186 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg89362#msg89362 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg89362#msg89362) 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 08, 2014, 08:46:25 AM
This is an article on sponges by Didier Rosada.   http://www.elclubdelpan.com/es/node/2702 (http://www.elclubdelpan.com/es/node/2702)    The sponge image is gone though.  This article shows what a poolish and sponge should look like before being incorpoated into the final dough.  http://www.bakerconnection.com/artisanbaker/article_04.htm (http://www.bakerconnection.com/artisanbaker/article_04.htm) 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 08, 2014, 08:46:54 AM
Thank you for your link to where you used the sponge that collapsed fast from the high amount of yeast (that was between a classic sponge and a poolish) and your link to where you tried the poolish preferment with a small amount of yeast in JerryMac's dough.  Could you say offhand which pizza was better in the taste of the crust?
Norma,

I don't really recall which of the two versions was better. Both were adaptations of the JerryMac dough formulation as set forth in the opening post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6515.msg55855#msg55855 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6515.msg55855#msg55855). That version was a one-day version using a lot of yeast and the techniques used in those versions would not be suitable for your use at market. The methods used for the other two versions that I mentioned in my last post could be adapted for use at market, although I think I would tend to go with the use of a small amount of yeast and an overnight prefermentation and a one-day cold fermentation of the final dough. That would be a Sunday through Monday scenario. Maybe this question has been asked before, but if a sponge prefermentation method were to work at market would you be permitted to make the sponge at home and bring it to market to make pizzas to be sold or would the sponge also have to be made at market under the rules of the market?

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 08, 2014, 09:00:16 AM
This is an article on sponges by Didier Rosada.   http://www.elclubdelpan.com/es/node/2702 (http://www.elclubdelpan.com/es/node/2702)    The sponge image is gone though.  This article shows what a poolish and sponge should look like before being incorpoated into the final dough.  http://www.bakerconnection.com/artisanbaker/article_04.htm (http://www.bakerconnection.com/artisanbaker/article_04.htm) 
Norma,

Thank you for finding those articles and especially the second one. Both are from Didier Rosada's work on this subject and, if I am not mistaken, the content was derived from the Rosada article I referenced earlier but with photos in the second article.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 08, 2014, 09:10:25 AM
Norma,

I don't really recall which of the two versions was better. Both were adaptations of the JerryMac dough formulation as set forth in the opening post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6515.msg55855#msg55855 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6515.msg55855#msg55855). That version was a one-day version using a lot of yeast and the techniques used in those versions would not be suitable for your use at market. The methods used for the other two versions that I mentioned in my last post could be adapted for use at market, although I think I would tend to go with the use of a small amount of yeast and an overnight prefermentation and a one-day cold fermentation of the final dough. That would be a Sunday through Monday scenario. Maybe this question has been asked before, but if a sponge prefermentation method were to work at market would you be permitted to make the sponge at home and bring it to market to make pizzas to be sold or would the sponge also have to be made at market under the rules of the market?

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me you really can't recall which of the two versions was better.  I know the JerryMac versions you used would not be suitable for market. 

Thanks also for telling me you think you would go with using a small amount of yeast and an overnight prefermentation and a one-day cold fermentation of the final dough.  I can understand that would be a Sunday through Monday scenario.  I really don't know if I would be able to make the sponge at home per food safety rules.  Baked goods without things like cheese are allowed to be made at home but I don't have a retail food license to do that at home.  I also don't think my Kitchen Aid mixer would do as good as job of the mixing of a sponge unless a sponge can be mixed by hand. I could always ask market management if I would be allowed to go into market on a Sunday.  Market management usually lets me do something like that.

Norma     
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 08, 2014, 09:16:13 AM
Norma,

Since you have been working with Walter on this matter I will hold back for now because I don't want to confuse or distract you. However, I may play around with some numbers in the meantime to satisfy my own curiosity.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 08, 2014, 10:11:43 AM
Norma,

Since you have been working with Walter on this matter I will hold back for now because I don't want to confuse or distract you. However, I may play around with some numbers in the meantime to satisfy my own curiosity.

Peter

Peter,

Walter and I have been corresponding to find out how there might be better flavors in pizza crusts.  Walter started his own experiment because he wanted to know if something like his preferment would give a better flavor.  Walter can tell you how he did an experiment the day before (his recent experiment he posted on) and how that the crust was too yeasty or sour for his tastes.  Walter understands more how preferments work than I do and can change things in the final dough, which I can't do.  I think Walter, I and other members would benefit if you played around with numbers and maybe came up with a formulation if you can.  I know Walter does want to get away from doing more than one day cold ferments because he does not have enough fridge space and is getting busier in his setting.

The one thing Walter and I both find interesting is that most customers can not tell the difference in a one day cold ferment to a longer dough ferment, or even when a preferment is used.

I think Walter and I would both appreciate what you are able to come up with.  I don't think you would confuse or distract Walter or me.  I think we both want to learn more.  I probably will take longer to understand things than Walter though.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on March 08, 2014, 12:22:40 PM
Norma:  Yes my preferment was stiff/dough like.  Your warming oven looks like a small version of mine. Peter please experiment with this if it interests you. I am a mad scientist and you are a real scientist :)   I think there is something here that can bring out good flavor in a same day dough and eliminate a lot of the hassles cold fermenting can cause small fridge space/not open 7 days a week operators.  Thanks!  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 08, 2014, 01:13:48 PM
Norma:  Yes my preferment was stiff/dough like.  Your warming oven looks like a small version of mine. 
Walter

Thanks Water for telling me your preferment was a stiff dough.  My warming cabinet was purchased used from a business in York, Pa.  It can be used to keep many foods warms, but works well for tempering Detroit style doughs and also warming up dough balls that have not been left out on the bench long enough.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 09, 2014, 07:02:43 PM
Norma,

Can you tell me how you came up with the numbers for the dough that you described in Reply 1805 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg304434#msg304434 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg304434#msg304434)? I know that the thickness factor is 0.08, and the bowl residue compensation is 2%, but I don't know the number of dough balls or the size of the pizzas. Also, the baker's percents numbers in the photo are a bit blurry. Usually, I can figure out what you did but this time I am stumped.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 09, 2014, 07:26:37 PM
Norma,

Can you tell me how you came up with the numbers for the dough that you described in Reply 1805 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg304434#msg304434 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg304434#msg304434)? I know that the thickness factor is 0.08, and the bowl residue compensation is 2%, but I don't know the number of dough balls or the size of the pizzas. Also, the baker's percents numbers in the photo are a bit blurry. Usually, I can figure out what you did but this time I am stumped.

Peter

Peter,

I used the expanded calculation tool and put in these numbers.

Flour 100% Full Strength
Water 63% (I usually add more water)
IDY was 0.25% for the 3 day cold ferment but usually is between 0.50% to 0.55% for this time of the year
Salt Kosher 2.00%
Olive Oil 1.5%
Sugar 0.85%

TF 0.80 but I scale to 1.15 lbs. for a 16.5” pizza
Bowl residue compensation 2.0%

I have that print out sheet at market but I think it was for 20 dough balls, or it might have been 21 dough balls.  :-\  If you want me to wait until tomorrow to see how many dough balls I put in the expanded dough calculation tool I can look.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 09, 2014, 07:49:20 PM
Norma,

After my last post, I figured it out. It was 21 dough balls for 16.5" pizzas. It was the 16.5" number that stumped me since I am not used to seeing a size like that. This is what the dough formulation looks like:

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.25%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (2%):
Olive Oil (1.5%):
Sugar (0.85%):
Total (167.6%):
Single Ball:
6197.92 g  |  218.62 oz | 13.66 lbs
3904.69 g  |  137.73 oz | 8.61 lbs
15.49 g | 0.55 oz | 0.03 lbs | 5.14 tsp | 1.71 tbsp
123.96 g | 4.37 oz | 0.27 lbs | 8.61 tbsp | 0.54 cups
92.97 g | 3.28 oz | 0.2 lbs | 6.89 tbsp | 0.43 cups
52.68 g | 1.86 oz | 0.12 lbs | 4.4 tbsp | 0.28 cups
10387.72 g | 366.41 oz | 22.9 lbs | TF = 0.0816
494.65 g | 17.45 oz | 1.09 lbs
Note: Dough is for twenty-one 16.5" pizzas; nominal thickness factor = 0.08; bowl residue compensation = 2%

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 09, 2014, 08:32:03 PM
Norma,

After my last post, I figured it out. It was 21 dough balls for 16.5" pizzas. It was the 16.5" number that stumped me since I am not used to seeing a size like that. This is what the dough formulation looks like:

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.25%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (2%):
Olive Oil (1.5%):
Sugar (0.85%):
Total (167.6%):
Single Ball:
6197.92 g  |  218.62 oz | 13.66 lbs
3904.69 g  |  137.73 oz | 8.61 lbs
15.49 g | 0.55 oz | 0.03 lbs | 5.14 tsp | 1.71 tbsp
123.96 g | 4.37 oz | 0.27 lbs | 8.61 tbsp | 0.54 cups
92.97 g | 3.28 oz | 0.2 lbs | 6.89 tbsp | 0.43 cups
52.68 g | 1.86 oz | 0.12 lbs | 4.4 tbsp | 0.28 cups
10387.72 g | 366.41 oz | 22.9 lbs | TF = 0.0816
494.65 g | 17.45 oz | 1.09 lbs
Note: Dough is for twenty-one 16.5" pizzas; nominal thickness factor = 0.08; bowl residue compensation = 2%

Peter

Peter,

I can understand how that 16.5" pizza size would throw you off.  Thanks for figuring out the formulation I used.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 09, 2014, 08:48:28 PM
Norma,

What prefermentation period would you plan to use, in hours, prior to incorporating the sponge in the final mix at market? I assume that the prefermentation would take place at your home rather than at market and, if that is so, what would be the average temperature at your home during the prefermentation period? You also indicated that you wanted to make a five-pound batch of dough. Is that correct?

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 09, 2014, 09:01:46 PM
Norma,

What prefermentation period would you plan to use, in hours, prior to incorporating the sponge in the final mix at market? I assume that the prefermentation would take place at your home rather than at market and, if that is so, what would be the average temperature at your home during the prefermentation period? You also indicated that you wanted to make a five-pound batch of dough. Is that correct?

Peter

Peter,

I guess I would go with a prefermentation period of about 20 hrs. before the sponge would go into the final mix at market.  The prefermentation would take place at home instead of market until I would find out if I was allowed to make the sponge at market on a Sunday.  The mixing of the sponge at market on a Sunday would also depend on how the taste of the final pizzas turns out.  My home temperature usually is about 68 degrees F right now.  I would like to make a five dough ball batch if that is possible. I think doing an exercise like this is going to be quite tough on your since there will be varying temperatures and also trying to use include a sponge in the final dough.  If you want to stop now that is okay with me. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 09, 2014, 09:37:56 PM
Norma,

Your situation is tricky but I think it is worth proceeding if only to tell us whether a sponge preferment approach is viable for your case.

For the five dough ball batch you mentioned, what would be the individual dough ball weights?

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 09, 2014, 10:00:07 PM
Norma,

Your situation is tricky but I think it is worth proceeding if only to tell us whether a sponge preferment approach is viable for your case.

For the five dough ball batch you mentioned, what would be the individual dough ball weights?

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for being willing to proceed with a sponge preferment approach.  I think this might be a rough journey. 

The individual dough ball weights would be 1.15 lb.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on March 10, 2014, 10:15:34 AM
Here is one I started last night with IDY yeast/water/flour.   I mixed it first thing this morning,balled, boxed, and let it rise for 2 hours on the bench.  The crust was passable had a very good flavor all things considered.   It is not as good as a multi day ferment in texture.  The flavor is different than a multi day but not bad IMO.  This made 4-20 oz doug balls.  I did all the math in my head/hands, weighed it all, and plugged these numbers in the calculator.  I followed the calculator numbers below.  I say give this one a try.  I am saving some for a reheat to see how it holds up.  My previous experiments were too bread/toast like on reaheat for my liking.  The color was light and the camera always make the colors more washed out than they are.  I could not get the darker browning that comes with a multi day cold ferment.  I have had the same experience with breads and believe it is the way the flour and yeast interact in slow cold rising. Walter

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):  1374.95 g  |  48.5 oz | 3.03 lbs
Water (63%):  866.22 g  |  30.55 oz | 1.91 lbs
Salt (1.75%):  24.06 g | 0.85 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.31 tsp | 1.44 tbsp
IDY (.5%):  6.87 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.28 tsp | 0.76 tbsp
Oil (2%):  27.5 g | 0.97 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.11 tsp | 2.04 tbsp
Sugar (1%):  13.75 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.45 tsp | 1.15 tbsp
Total (168.25%): 2313.36 g | 81.6 oz | 5.1 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball: 578.34 g | 20.4 oz | 1.27 lbs

Preferment:
Flour:  115.67 g | 4.08 oz | 0.26 lbs
Water:  115.67 g | 4.08 oz | 0.26 lbs
Total:  231.34 g | 8.16 oz | 0.51 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:  1259.29 g | 44.42 oz | 2.78 lbs
Water:  750.55 g | 26.47 oz | 1.65 lbs
Salt:  24.06 g | 0.85 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.31 tsp | 1.44 tbsp
IDY:  6.87 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.28 tsp | 0.76 tbsp
Preferment:  231.34 g | 8.16 oz | 0.51 lbs
Oil:  27.5 g | 0.97 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.11 tsp | 2.04 tbsp
Sugar:  13.75 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.45 tsp | 1.15 tbsp
Total:  2313.36 g | 81.6 oz | 5.1 lbs  | TF = N/A

Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 10, 2014, 10:30:30 AM
Walter,

The preferment dough calculating tool does not do a particularly good job with preferments that include commercial yeast. When Boy Hits Car (Mike) and I designed that tool, we considered whether it could be used or be adapted to be used with preferments with commercial yeast. We discovered that there were so many possibilities (poolish, sponge, biga, old dough, prefermented dough, etc.) that it would have been a nightmare from a programming standpoint to be able to cover them all. I mention this because I suspect that you used commercial yeast (IDY) in your poolish even though it is not shown in the output of the preferment dough calculating tool. Some people put all of the commercial yeast in the preferment but others split the total formula yeast between the preferment and the final mix. I suspect that you did the former. Is that correct? Or did you use a natural starter for the preferment. If that is the case, then what you posted would be correct.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on March 10, 2014, 10:44:56 AM
Walter,

The preferment dough calculating tool does not do a particularly good job with preferments that include commercial yeast. When Boy Hits Car (Mike) and I designed that tool, we considered whether it could be used or be adapted to be used with preferments with commercial yeast. We discovered that there were so many possibilities (poolish, sponge, biga, old dough, prefermented dough, etc.) that it would have been a nightmare from a programming standpoint to be able to cover them all. I mention this because I suspect that you used commercial yeast (IDY) in your poolish even though it is not shown in the output of the preferment dough calculating tool. Some people put all of the commercial yeast in the preferment but others split the total formula yeast between the preferment and the final mix. I suspect that you did the former. Is that correct? Or did you use a natural starter for the preferment. If that is the case, then what you posted would be correct.

Peter

Peter:  I put just a pinch of IDY in the poolish last night.  It rose fine and was not too yeasty smelling. I have been making these kinds of poolishes for bread for so long I don't measure yeast anymore with them.  I have a great pure sourdough starter that we use every week for sourdough breads. I may try putting the same weight in tomorrow with it not active.  I am aiming for flavor enhancement.  The texture of the dough was ok but not one I would want to make full time.  I wish we all could taste/smell/touch each others pizzas.  Using words to describe this stuff is a venture in who knows what  because we all have our own ideas of what taste/texture is.   I just reheated a piece.  It came out crunchy on the outside and chewy inside. Not bad but more crunchy than my normal cold fermented dough (has no oil or sugar in it).  Thanks and if you have any suggestions I welcome them.  Thanks!  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 10, 2014, 05:57:22 PM
Walter,

Since you mixed the dough this morning with the poolish IDY preferment you made last night I would say that is a very nice looking pie.  :D  Do you think there is any way there could be a better flavor with such a short ferment time, even if it was risen at room temperature for 2 hrs.  Did the dough ball open easily in that short amout of time?  To me that sounds like too short of a ferment time to produce any flavors, but what do I know.  Do you think it you would have mixed that dough, balled and boxed and then left it cold ferment for one day if there might have been different results.  I think what you experimented with was more like an emergency dough with a poolish preferment, but am not sure. 

Will be interested if you try your inactive pure sourdough starter and put the same weight in.  Are you going to add some IDY.  I wish we all could taste/smell/and touch each others pizzas too.  I agree we all have our own ideas of what taste and texture we like.   Maybe I am chasing after something I might never find in finding something that works at market.  The preferment Lehmann dough did taste better to me than my regular one day cold fermented doughs but hardly any of my customers could tell the difference.

I had thought about going against the grain of using natural starters and adding some IDY to see what would happened.  I never tried that if I recall right in a one day cold ferment.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on March 10, 2014, 06:05:37 PM
Walter,

Since you mixed the dough this morning with the poolish IDY preferment you made last night I would say that is a very nice looking pie.  :D  Do you think there is any way there could be a better flavor with such a short ferment time, even if it was risen at room temperature for 2 hrs.  Did the dough ball open easily in that short amout of time?  To me that sounds like too short of a ferment time to produce any flavors, but what do I know.  Do you think it you would have mixed that dough, balled and boxed and then left it cold ferment for one day if there might have been different results.  I think what you experimented with was more like an emergency dough with a poolish preferment, but am not sure. 

Will be interested if you try your inactive pure sourdough starter and put the same weight in.  Are you going to add some IDY.  I wish we all could taste/smell/and touch each others pizzas too.  I agree we all have our own ideas of what taste and texture we like.   Maybe I am chasing after something I might never find in finding something that works at market.  The preferment Lehmann dough did taste better to me than my regular one day cold fermented doughs but hardly any of my customers could tell the difference.

I had thought about going against the grain of using natural starters and adding some IDY to see what would happened.  I never tried that if I recall right in a one day cold ferment.

Norma

Norma:  Yes today was an emergency dough.  It was rising really fast after an hour or so, so I put it in the fridge for an hour and the warmed it up for another hour before making.  It opened fine once it was warmed up and the flavor was definetly better than if it was just a IDY only emergency.  I will make another poolish tonight and give the finished dough a 24 cold ferment tomorrow.  I weighed out the sourdough starter (inactive) before I left today and will add it to the dough tomorrow and cold ferment it as well.  I will also make a 24 hour dough with just IDY.  So I will have 3 different - 24 hour cold ferments going tomorrow so I can bake them all off Wed.  If you add commercial yeast to a sourdough starter it will kill most of the sourdough flavor.  I will not add any because the main dough will have IDY in it.  To be continued!   Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 10, 2014, 06:42:31 PM
Norma:  Yes today was an emergency dough.  It was rising really fast after an hour or so, so I put it in the fridge for an hour and the warmed it up for another hour before making.  It opened fine once it was warmed up and the flavor was definetly better than if it was just a IDY only emergency.  I will make another poolish tonight and give the finished dough a 24 cold ferment tomorrow.  I weighed out the sourdough starter (inactive) before I left today and will add it to the dough tomorrow and cold ferment it as well.  I will also make a 24 hour dough with just IDY.  So I will have 3 different - 24 hour cold ferments going tomorrow so I can bake them all off Wed.  If you add commercial yeast to a sourdough starter it will kill most of the sourdough flavor.  I will not add any because the main dough will have IDY in it.  To be continued!   Walter

Water,

Thanks for telling me it was an emergency dough today.  Looking forward to see what happens with your three experiments.

I thought adding some IDY to a sourdough starter would kill most of the sourdough flavor, but was not sure.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 11, 2014, 12:53:24 PM
Norma,

I have set forth below a dough formulation for you to consider that makes use of a sponge preferment. That formulation is a conversion of the dough formulation as set forth in Reply 1805 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg304434#msg304434 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg304434#msg304434) to a sponge format.

As you can see, I was able to use the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html) to come up with the formulation. However, it took a lot of playing around with the output of the formulation to include the IDY in the sponge Preferment and to adjust the IDY in the Final Dough (as shown below) and to get all of the numbers to line up. In retrospect, it would have been far easier to leave out the IDY component of the sponge Preferment, like Walter did, and to simply state what the amounts of IDY should be in the sponge Preferment and in the Final Dough. However, I wanted you to see exactly how all of the numbers look so that you can make similar adjustments at a later date should the formulation presented below be useful but still need adjustment. Unfortunately, there is no easy way of getting around the need to do a fair amount of math calculations whenever basic variables are changed, whether it is the amount of the sponge Preferment, the temperature of the prefermentation, or the duration of the prefermentation period, or any combination thereof.

As background, I used the following assumptions:

1.   The dough batch is enough to make five dough balls, each weighing 1.15 pounds (18.4 ounces), for a total of 92 ounces.
2.   The bowl residue compensation is 2%. For scaling purposes, 18.4 ounces should be used for each of the five dough balls.
3.   The room temperature during the prefermentation of the sponge Preferment is 68 degrees F.
4.   The duration of the prefermentation of the sponge Preferment is 20 hours.
5.   The temperature of the water used to make the sponge Preferment is 60 degrees F (per Didier Rosada).
6.   The sponge Preferment is 65% of the total formula water of 1000.02 grams (based on Rosada).
7.   The hydration of the sponge Preferment is 63%, which is the same as for the dough formulation given in Reply 1805 cited above.
8.   The sponge Preferment percent of water is 38.6503% (this number is used in the preferment dough calculating tool).
9.   The thickness factor that corresponds to a 16.5” pizza using 18.4 ounces of dough is 18.4/(3.14159 x 8.25 x 8.25) = 0.08605.
10. The flour used is the Full Strength flour, the salt is Morton’s Kosher salt, and the oil is the Lira Olive Pomace Oil.
11. Upon completion of the Final Dough and dividing and scaling, the dough balls will be subjected to a period of cold fermentation.

You will note that, as Walter has stated, there is not much yeast (IDY) used in the sponge Preferment. It comes to 1/16 teaspoon of IDY. That is convenient because it is a standard mini-measuring spoon that is called “pinch”. The amount of IDY to use in the Final Dough is also a convenient value. It is a bit more than 1 ¼ teaspoon.

You will also note the 63% hydration of the sponge Preferment. That should yield a texture like the Final Dough into which it is to be incorporated but there may be some slight differences to the extent that some of the water in the sponge Preferment evaporates during the period of prefermentation. Also, the Final Dough contains some oil that might lead to slight differences in extensibility.

Within the framework of sponge preferments as described by Didier Rosada, there are a myriad of possible combinations. But, even within the Rosada constraints, there would not be a lot of yeast in the sponge Preferment for the duration of the prefermentation you would be using and also the temperature of prefermentation that you would be using. I used member November’s analytical approach to adjust the Rosada prefermentation profile as set forth in the Rosada article referenced earlier in this thread to fit your particular situation.

Here is the formulation:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):     1587.33 g  |  55.99 oz | 3.5 lbs
Water (63%):     1000.02 g  |  35.27 oz | 2.2 lbs 
Salt (2%):           31.75 g | 1.12 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.61 tsp | 2.2 tbsp
IDY (0.25%):       3.97 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.32 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
Oil (1.5%):           23.81 g | 0.84 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.29 tsp | 1.76 tbsp
Sugar (0.85%):   13.49 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.38 tsp | 1.13 tbsp
Total (167.6%):   2660.36 g | 93.84 oz | 5.87 lbs | TF = N/A

Preferment:
Flour:                   398.78 g | 14.07 oz | 0.88 lbs
Water:                 251.23 g | 8.86 oz | 0.55 lbs
IDY:                      0.19 g l 0.0067 oz l 0.063 tsp (1/16 tsp "pinch" mini-measuring spoon)
Total:                   650.2 g | 22.94 oz | 1.43 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:                   1188.55 g | 41.92 oz | 2.62 lbs
Water:                 748.79 g | 26.41 oz | 1.65 lbs
Salt:                     31.75 g | 1.12 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.61 tsp | 2.2 tbsp
IDY:                      3.78 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 | 1.26 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
Preferment:          650.2 g | 22.94 oz | 1.43 lbs
Oil:                       23.81 g | 0.84 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.29 tsp | 1.76 tbsp
Sugar:                  13.49 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.38 tsp | 1.13 tbsp
Total:                    2660.36 g | 93.84 oz | 5.87 lbs  | TF = N/A

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on March 11, 2014, 12:57:07 PM
Peter: Thanks so much for doing all that work!  I am excited to try your formula.   It may not be until next week because my fridge is stacking up with my own experiments.  You are a great resource/assesst to the pizza world.  If there were pizza grammy's you would be first up for one :)  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 11, 2014, 02:30:52 PM
Peter: Thanks so much for doing all that work!  I am excited to try your formula.   It may not be until next week because my fridge is stacking up with my own experiments.  You are a great resource/assesst to the pizza world.  If there were pizza grammy's you would be first up for one :)  Walter

Walter,

Thank you very much for the kind remarks but just because something looks or sounds nice doesn't mean that it is any good. Usually in cases like this, a good approach is to test the end points of the exercise. For example, the sponge Preferment quantity might be tested at 20% of the total formula water and at 80% of the total formula water. These are the two endpoints of the Rosada sponge preferment. A test at the middle of the range, at 50% of the total formula water, would also be a useful test. Hopefully, one of the tests would lead to a preference from which to proceed in future exercises. But all three tests would perhaps have to be conducted to know if there is a preference.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 11, 2014, 09:37:11 PM
Norma,

I have set forth below a dough formulation for you to consider that makes use of a sponge preferment. That formulation is a conversion of the dough formulation as set forth in Reply 1805 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg304434#msg304434 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg304434#msg304434) to a sponge format.

As you can see, I was able to use the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html) to come up with the formulation. However, it took a lot of playing around with the output of the formulation to include the IDY in the sponge Preferment and to adjust the IDY in the Final Dough (as shown below) and to get all of the numbers to line up. In retrospect, it would have been far easier to leave out the IDY component of the sponge Preferment, like Walter did, and to simply state what the amounts of IDY should be in the sponge Preferment and in the Final Dough. However, I wanted you to see exactly how all of the numbers look so that you can make similar adjustments at a later date should the formulation presented below be useful but still need adjustment. Unfortunately, there is no easy way of getting around the need to do a fair amount of math calculations whenever basic variables are changed, whether it is the amount of the sponge Preferment, the temperature of the prefermentation, or the duration of the prefermentation period, or any combination thereof.

As background, I used the following assumptions:

1.   The dough batch is enough to make five dough balls, each weighing 1.15 pounds (18.4 ounces), for a total of 92 ounces.
2.   The bowl residue compensation is 2%. For scaling purposes, 18.4 ounces should be used for each of the five dough balls.
3.   The room temperature during the prefermentation of the sponge Preferment is 68 degrees F.
4.   The duration of the prefermentation of the sponge Preferment is 20 hours.
5.   The temperature of the water used to make the sponge Preferment is 60 degrees F (per Didier Rosada).
6.   The sponge Preferment is 65% of the total formula water of 1000.02 grams (based on Rosada).
7.   The hydration of the sponge Preferment is 63%, which is the same as for the dough formulation given in Reply 1805 cited above.
8.   The sponge Preferment percent of water is 38.6503% (this number is used in the preferment dough calculating tool).
9.   The thickness factor that corresponds to a 16.5” pizza using 18.4 ounces of dough is 18.4/(3.14159 x 8.25 x 8.25) = 0.08605.
10. The flour used is the Full Strength flour, the salt is Morton’s Kosher salt, and the oil is the Lira Olive Pomace Oil.
11. Upon completion of the Final Dough and dividing and scaling, the dough balls will be subjected to a period of cold fermentation.

You will note that, as Walter has stated, there is not much yeast (IDY) used in the sponge Preferment. It comes to 1/16 teaspoon of IDY. That is convenient because it is a standard mini-measuring spoon that is called “pinch”. The amount of IDY to use in the Final Dough is also a convenient value. It is a bit more than 1 ¼ teaspoon.

You will also note the 63% hydration of the sponge Preferment. That should yield a texture like the Final Dough into which it is to be incorporated but there may be some slight differences to the extent that some of the water in the sponge Preferment evaporates during the period of prefermentation. Also, the Final Dough contains some oil that might lead to slight differences in extensibility.

Within the framework of sponge preferments as described by Didier Rosada, there are a myriad of possible combinations. But, even within the Rosada constraints, there would not be a lot of yeast in the sponge Preferment for the duration of the prefermentation you would be using and also the temperature of prefermentation that you would be using. I used member November’s analytical approach to adjust the Rosada prefermentation profile as set forth in the Rosada article referenced earlier in this thread to fit your particular situation.

Here is the formulation:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):     1587.33 g  |  55.99 oz | 3.5 lbs
Water (63%):     1000.02 g  |  35.27 oz | 2.2 lbs 
Salt (2%):           31.75 g | 1.12 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.61 tsp | 2.2 tbsp
IDY (0.25%):       3.97 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.32 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
Oil (1.5%):           23.81 g | 0.84 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.29 tsp | 1.76 tbsp
Sugar (0.85%):   13.49 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.38 tsp | 1.13 tbsp
Total (167.6%):   2660.36 g | 93.84 oz | 5.87 lbs | TF = N/A

Preferment:
Flour:                   398.78 g | 14.07 oz | 0.88 lbs
Water:                 251.23 g | 8.86 oz | 0.55 lbs
IDY:                      0.19 g l 0.0067 oz l 0.063 tsp (1/16 tsp "pinch" mini-measuring spoon)
Total:                   650.2 g | 22.94 oz | 1.43 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:                   1188.55 g | 41.92 oz | 2.62 lbs
Water:                 748.79 g | 26.41 oz | 1.65 lbs
Salt:                     31.75 g | 1.12 oz | 0.07 lbs | 6.61 tsp | 2.2 tbsp
IDY:                      3.78 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 | 1.26 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
Preferment:          650.2 g | 22.94 oz | 1.43 lbs
Oil:                       23.81 g | 0.84 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.29 tsp | 1.76 tbsp
Sugar:                  13.49 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.38 tsp | 1.13 tbsp
Total:                    2660.36 g | 93.84 oz | 5.87 lbs  | TF = N/A

Peter

Peter,

Thank you so much for setting forth a dough formulation for a sponge preferment.  I can understand it took a lot of playing around with the output of the formulation to include IDY in the sponge preferment and to adjust the the IDY in the final dough to get all of the numbers to line up.  I can see what the numbers look like but don't know if I will be able to make similar adjustments at a later date if needed.  I think you know how bad I am with math by now and having to do math calculations whenever basic variables are changed. 

I do see there is not much IDY used in the sponge preferment.  I do have a mini-measuring spoon that measures a pinch. 

I noted the 63% hydration of the sponge preferment.  I did not think about maybe some of the water evaporating in the sponge during the period of prefermentation.  How would I know if any water evaporated?   

What is November's analytical approach that you used to adjust the Rosada prefermentaion profile?   

I will give the dough formulation with a sponge preferment a test drive this coming week.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 11, 2014, 10:14:08 PM
Norma,

To know if any of the water in the sponge Preferment evaporates during prefermentation, you would have to weigh the storage container by itself (i.e., while empty), then with the sponge within it, which would tell you the weight of the poolish, and again at the end of the prefermentation. By subtracting the weight of the storage container from the combined weight at the end of the prefermentation period, that would tell you whether the poolish lost any weight through evaporation. Of course, you can also use the tare feature approach Also, how you cover the storage container during prefermentation can affect the degree of any losses due to evaporation.

The method that I used to modify the Rosada prefermentation protocol is the one that November discussed in Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5028.msg42572#msg42572 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5028.msg42572#msg42572) . I simply treated the sponge Preferment as though it was a regular dough. At 63% hydration, that is essentially what a sponge is.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 11, 2014, 10:52:18 PM
Norma,

To know if any of the water in the sponge Preferment evaporates during prefermentation, you would have to weigh the storage container by itself (i.e., while empty), then with the sponge within it, which would tell you the weight of the poolish, and again at the end of the prefermentation. By subtracting the weight of the storage container from the combined weight at the end of the prefermentation period, that would tell you whether the poolish lost any weight through evaporation. Of course, you can also use the tare feature approach Also, how you cover the storage container during prefermentation can affect the degree of any losses due to evaporation.

The method that I used to modify the Rosada prefermentation protocol is the one that November discussed in Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5028.msg42572#msg42572 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5028.msg42572#msg42572) . I simply treated the poolish Preferment as though it was a regular dough. At 63% hydration, that is essentially what a sponge is.

Peter

Peter,

That makes sense what you posted in the two methods to find out if the sponge preferment loses any water though evaporation.  I will make sure I have a tight fitting cover for the sponge during prefermentation.  One other thing I don't understand is why you call a sponge a poolish.

Thanks for the link to November's method you used to modify the Rosada prefermentation protocol.  I understand that at 63% hydration that is essentially what a sponge is.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 12, 2014, 07:53:14 AM
One other thing I don't understand is why you call a sponge a poolish.
Norma,

I meant sponge, not poolish. I have corrected my post. Thanks for catching that.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on March 12, 2014, 12:33:36 PM
report:  IDY poolish or whatever you call it worked the best but still not near as good as a normal 2+ day cold ferment. Flavor was marginal.   Inactive sourdough starter came out cracker like and the worst of the lot.  regular 24 hour cold ferment inbetween the other 2. All in all I would not make any of them regularly.  Next to our 2 day we used today the stunk.  I have pictures but only have a quick minute to write.  I am going to try Peter's formula and also some bulk multi day ferments.  There just seems no way around the time factor that I have found yet.  Walter

PS:  FYI I rate pizzas as really good or crap.  No inbetween.  Todays experiments were crap but my kids ate them all up.  Again I realize most people don't judge as harshly as I do. 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 12, 2014, 12:55:18 PM

PS:  FYI I rate pizzas as really good or crap.  No inbetween.  Todays experiments were crap but my kids ate them all up.  Again I realize most people don't judge as harshly as I do.


Walter,

I also realize too that most people (that don't actually make pizzas or have not tasted so many different ones) don't judge pizzas as I do.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on March 12, 2014, 02:16:23 PM
Walter,

I also realize too that most people (that don't actually make pizzas or have not tasted so many different ones) don't judge pizzas as I do.

Norma

I hear you Norma.  I cringe with a less than really good pie and won't sell it.  My kids eat it.  Here are some pictures from todays experiments.  I think they are all labeled. I would nix them all with the preferment amount I used (same in both IDY and sourdough) and sent you and think published here.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 12, 2014, 05:43:38 PM
Here are some pictures from todays experiments.  I think they are all labeled. I would nix them all with the preferment amount I used (same in both IDY and sourdough) and sent you and think published here.  Walter

Walter,

I am not sure of what pizza you used the 24 hr. cold ferment with the IDY starter.  The photos look labeled the same.  All of the pizzas look good.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on March 12, 2014, 06:29:30 PM
Walter,

I am not sure of what pizza you used the 24 hr. cold ferment with the IDY starter.  The photos look labeled the same.  All of the pizzas look good.

Norma

They all are of the IDY starter pie.  The others were not worth pictures.   Walter

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):  1374.95 g  |  48.5 oz | 3.03 lbs
Water (63%):  866.22 g  |  30.55 oz | 1.91 lbs
Salt (1.75%):  24.06 g | 0.85 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.31 tsp | 1.44 tbsp
IDY (.5%):  6.87 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.28 tsp | 0.76 tbsp
Oil (2%):  27.5 g | 0.97 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.11 tsp | 2.04 tbsp
Sugar (1%):  13.75 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.45 tsp | 1.15 tbsp
Total (168.25%): 2313.36 g | 81.6 oz | 5.1 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball: 578.34 g | 20.4 oz | 1.27 lbs

Preferment:
Flour:  115.67 g | 4.08 oz | 0.26 lbs
Water:  115.67 g | 4.08 oz | 0.26 lbs
pinch of IDY and it sat overnight on the counter
Total:  231.34 g | 8.16 oz | 0.51 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:  1259.29 g | 44.42 oz | 2.78 lbs
Water:  750.55 g | 26.47 oz | 1.65 lbs
Salt:  24.06 g | 0.85 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.31 tsp | 1.44 tbsp
IDY:  6.87 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.28 tsp | 0.76 tbsp
Preferment:  231.34 g | 8.16 oz | 0.51 lbs
Oil:  27.5 g | 0.97 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.11 tsp | 2.04 tbsp
Sugar:  13.75 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.45 tsp | 1.15 tbsp
Total:  2313.36 g | 81.6 oz | 5.1 lbs  | TF = N/A
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: dmckean44 on March 12, 2014, 06:35:04 PM
I wonder if you could blend a modest percentage of 5 day dough into fresh dough and overnight it.
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on March 12, 2014, 06:53:32 PM
I wonder if you could blend a modest percentage of 5 day dough into fresh dough and overnight it.

 I have added a ball or 2 to 15 new ones that will sit for 48+ hours.  I couldn't taste any improvement. I find a 48 hour ferment is just about perfect without any added preferment or old dough.  I rarely do a 24 hour dough but will try it with some old dough in it for the heck of it.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 12, 2014, 07:30:14 PM
They all are of the IDY starter pie.  The others were not worth pictures.   Walter

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):  1374.95 g  |  48.5 oz | 3.03 lbs
Water (63%):  866.22 g  |  30.55 oz | 1.91 lbs
Salt (1.75%):  24.06 g | 0.85 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.31 tsp | 1.44 tbsp
IDY (.5%):  6.87 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.28 tsp | 0.76 tbsp
Oil (2%):  27.5 g | 0.97 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.11 tsp | 2.04 tbsp
Sugar (1%):  13.75 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.45 tsp | 1.15 tbsp
Total (168.25%): 2313.36 g | 81.6 oz | 5.1 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball: 578.34 g | 20.4 oz | 1.27 lbs

Preferment:
Flour:  115.67 g | 4.08 oz | 0.26 lbs
Water:  115.67 g | 4.08 oz | 0.26 lbs
pinch of IDY and it sat overnight on the counter
Total:  231.34 g | 8.16 oz | 0.51 lbs

Final Dough:
Flour:  1259.29 g | 44.42 oz | 2.78 lbs
Water:  750.55 g | 26.47 oz | 1.65 lbs
Salt:  24.06 g | 0.85 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.31 tsp | 1.44 tbsp
IDY:  6.87 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.28 tsp | 0.76 tbsp
Preferment:  231.34 g | 8.16 oz | 0.51 lbs
Oil:  27.5 g | 0.97 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6.11 tsp | 2.04 tbsp
Sugar:  13.75 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.45 tsp | 1.15 tbsp
Total:  2313.36 g | 81.6 oz | 5.1 lbs  | TF = N/A

Thanks for posting the formulation you tried Walter and telling me what the photos were.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: dmckean44 on March 12, 2014, 11:59:55 PM
I have added a ball or 2 to 15 new ones that will sit for 48+ hours.  I couldn't taste any improvement. I find a 48 hour ferment is just about perfect without any added preferment or old dough.  I rarely do a 24 hour dough but will try it with some old dough in it for the heck of it.  Walter

There's rarely a substitute for doing things right. In my years of cooking, pressure cooking is the only thing that comes to mind.

What if you just balled your 48 hour dough the day you use it? Does that save any space?
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: scott123 on March 13, 2014, 01:16:05 AM
I am going to try Peter's formula and also some bulk multi day ferments.  There just seems no way around the time factor that I have found yet.

Walter, dough contains two kinds of ingredients- the ingredients that you add at the onset (water, yeast, flour, salt) and process derived ingredients.  The rules regarding process derived ingredients are clear cut and fairly well understood. Gluten (to a point), sugar, amino acids/flavor enhancers, alcohol and carbon dioxide are all process derived ingredients created during fermentation. You can control the amount of alcohol and gas produced over a given amount of time by either adjusting the quantity of yeast or adjusting the temperature of the dough.  The sugars and the flavor enhancers (the ingredients that make 48 hour doughs taste better) that are generated during fermentation are far less adjustable.  It's extremely difficult (possibly even impossible) to produce the same level of flavor enhancement in substantially less time. When you're doing a bulk dough, the dough is fermenting for the same 48 hours, so it has the same amount of time to generate the identical crust flavor that you're looking for, while taking up a much smaller amount of space.

Sourdough, btw, introduces an entirely different set of process derived ingredients.  The bacteria, over time, generates lactic acid and acetic acid.  These are very specific flavors- and neither bears any resemblance to the flavor enhancers generated by the enzymes in flour.  Swapping out flavor enhancers with acids would be like subbing for basil by using cilantro instead. Sure, you're adding additional flavor (depending on how active the starter is and how much time you give it), but it's not the flavor you're seeking- especially for NY style. Sourdough bread- wonderful. Sourdough Neapolitan pizza- fantastic. Sourdough NY pizza- all wrong.

A 24 hour bulk/24 hour balled IDY fermentation will give you the identical flavor to a 48 hour balled fermentation. I guarantee it.  Dough ferments faster in bulk, so it's going to take some trial and error to find the right amount of yeast, and perhaps a bit of time to master balling cold dough (or using even less yeast and finding a temperature stable area for a room temp bulk), but the science is sound and requires zero alchemy.
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on March 13, 2014, 06:15:40 AM
Scott:  Thanks for that detailed reply.  You know the science behind it and I don't.  I have pretty much surrendered to figuring a quick fix.  I will try Peter's formula when I get time but other than that I agree there doesn't seem to be a way around cold fermenting dough at least 48 hours to get the color, flavor, texture, I want.  I learned with working with bread that the color also changes in the crust with cold fermenting.  The same with pizza crust.  The same day and 24 hour ferments don't give the color of the crust I am looking for.  My pictures are not realistic enough to see an obvious difference but in the flesh I can tell and Paige can tell by looking at a finished pie which one went 24 hours or less and which went 48 or more.  I am going to try the bulk fermenting.  I will go with a bit less yeast to start and really cold water.  I use really cold water with all my pizza doughes.   Thanks.  Walter

here are a couple pictures of a 5 day ferment.   We make Monday's dough on Friday and this pie sat until Tuesday.  You can really tell a visual difference in the crust from the one I posted in a previous post yesterday that was a 24 hour cold ferment with an IDY starter made the night before the dough was made if you saw them in the flesh.
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 13, 2014, 07:14:58 AM
Walter or anyone that is interested,

These are some threads here on the forum about bulk fermentation. 

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=27622.0 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=27622.0)     

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=23355.0 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=23355.0)   

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16761.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16761.0.html) 

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=16618.0 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=16618.0) 

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=15208.msg150141#msg150141 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=15208.msg150141#msg150141) 

I think there are more, but did not look more.

There are many posts by Peter if the advanced forum searched is used on bulk fermentation.  This is only one of those posts at Reply 9 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10012.msg87628#msg87628 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10012.msg87628#msg87628)   If interested an expanded forum search using search words bulk fermentation Peter will keep someone busy for awhile.

One from Tom Lehmann.

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/dr-lehman-bulk-fermentation-versus-single-fermentation.4398/ (http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/dr-lehman-bulk-fermentation-versus-single-fermentation.4398/) 

Another somewhat related thread at PMQ  http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/why-dough-balls-mr-lehmann.2846/#post-14180 (http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/why-dough-balls-mr-lehmann.2846/#post-14180) 

I don't think a bulk fermentation would work out for me though because of market constraints.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: scott123 on March 13, 2014, 10:39:59 AM
Walter, the color of cold fermented dough is, indeed, very distinct.  The crumb turns a bit darker.  I can generally detect same day doughs in photos- especially in commercial operations.  One of the more egregious offenders is Difaras, who use a 1-2 hour ferment.

One thing to bear in mind regarding longer than 48 hour ferments is that the process derived ingredients keep generating as the clock extends.  I don't think they generate in a linear fashion, so if 2 days creates x amount of flavor enhancers, 4 days most likely won't be double that, but more time = more enhancement.  With every day you add, it's as if you were sprinkling another spoon of these process derived ingredients into the recipe.  As you move into higher and higher quantities of flavor enhancers with longer and longer ferments, it can get pretty subjective.  Some people like extremely long ferments (glutenboy is one of the leading proponents), but others don't. Going from 2 days to 5+ days is a little like saying, we'll if 2% salt is good, then 3% salt is better. For some people, yes, but others, no.  I think there's a certain novelty about increased flavor enhancers.  It's interesting to do once in a while, but it, imo, has a tendency to make a dough that takes over the cheese and the sauce. For me, same day ferments are flavorless, while more than 5 are a bit too intense, and 2 days are just right.

Anyway, back to the bulk.  How many batches of dough are you making in a day?  If it's one, I would leave the dough, covered, in the mixer bowl in the walk-in, and, when you ball the dough after 24 hours of bulk, immediately make the next batch. This way you'll always have one batch of dough doing a bulk ferment in the bowl and another batch doing it's 2nd day of cold fermentation in balled form.

If you can't tie up the mixer bowl, Cambros will work, but Anthony Mangieri uses something like this:

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Sterilite-18-Gallon-72-Quart-Storage-Box-Set-of-8/10401037 (http://www.walmart.com/ip/Sterilite-18-Gallon-72-Quart-Storage-Box-Set-of-8/10401037)

At least, he used to, as indicated by his Naturally risen video. I think these might be a bit better than a cambro since the thinner plastic won't insulate the dough as much. Whatever container you go with, try to make sure it's as smooth as possible on the inside, as grooves will make it difficult to get the dough out and to clean it.

One thing to be aware of with bulk ferments is that late balling (balling after the dough has fermented a while) might ramp up the gluten a bit.  Have you worked out your Full Strength sourcing issues yet?  If you're working with Full Strength, then you shouldn't have to worry about this, but if you're still occasionally using All Trumps, then you definitely want to dial back the kneading a bit so the dough is fully mixed, but no more.

Bulk fermentation accelerates yeast activity.  Rather than dial back the yeast a little, I'd probably start off dialing it back a lot and then adjust it upwards on future batches- I'd probably cut it in half to start.  It most likely won't have risen sufficiently by the time you need it, but, it's better to be underproofed (and given a bit more tempering time and/or heat to compensate) then be overblown.
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on March 13, 2014, 02:51:53 PM
Norma:  Thanks for those links!  This week and next week are fairly easy due to crazy testing going on here and I get a couple hours in the morning of peace and quiet. 

Scott:  I agree once you get past 2 days it is splitting hairs on flavor and pros/cons of it.  I spent an afternoon with Anthony at his SF shop.  We didn't talk pizza much though.  We talked about the often lonely journey of being driven to have to do something exactly as we see it needs to be done.  He is a real inspiration and a genuinely loving person.  I wish I lived closer and could get to know  him.   He reminds me of myself when I was his age.  I have slowed down some but still am pretty much driven to do things more than most.  We have no walk in.  We have a True double door fridge that is not wide enough to take a full sheet tray/dough box so that one is used for our eggs, butter, bulk cheeses, and other stuff we bake with.   the second fridge is a single door True that can handle 15 or so dough boxes and that is pretty much all we use it for.  I have room to bulk ferment in the 2 door.  I am excited to give it a try.  Today we sold 40 pies which on top of making a run of apple pies, cinnamon raisin bread, sourdough rounds, cookies, dog biscuits, it was a busy day for sure.  80% of our business is by the slice to staff and students.  I have found full strenght through sysco and am in the process of getting that set  up.  They deliver once a week to our school cafteteria so I can tag on that and our district treasurer can't moan about them being not worthy of us using them.  I went to RD last Sunday and bought 25 bags of FS so we are good for now.  We make 1-2 batches a day depending on orders that have come in prior to the day of making dough.  We do 15 balls per batch in our 20 qt mixers and can do 20 pushing them.  So our max dough batch per day now is 40.  After that the out of dough sign goes up. 

The bulk fermenting holds heat and that increases the yeast activity I imagine.  Thanks for the input and I will be giving it a try soon.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: scott123 on March 13, 2014, 04:27:13 PM
Walter, it sounds like a 20 quart or maybe 24 quart plastic storage box should work nicely, as long as it will fit in the smaller fridge. It really shouldn't rise all that much during the bulk.

You've seen 'Naturally Risen' right?

NATURALLY RISEN on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/6938721)

That's what, imo, put Anthony on the map and it provides excellent insight into his pizza making.

How about getting a new mixer?  Mecnosuds are nice. A bit pricey, but if you've got the money, I think they're a step up from a hobart.
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on March 13, 2014, 06:13:20 PM
Scott:  Yes I have seen that video.  It inspired me to meet Anthony when I was visiting my friend in Sacramento last summer.  I have worked in a couple small  bakeries from 10pm-6am doing everything and finished with doing the dishes, cleaning the shop, delivering to whole foods and such places that carried the products.  There is a joy in doing the entire process but those days are behind me.  Now I strive for a steady non rushed rhythm and let my students do the entry level jobs.  I aim to do like the old guys I use to marvel at in like how could they work so smooth and never tire out (both in music and baking/pizza making). 

I have some big NSF approved containers that will work.  Our 2, 20 qt mixers do a fine job. Plus they run on a standard plug.  I can move up to  a 30qt but bigger than that would mean having the room re-wired.  That sounds like a bigger headache than the morning after drinking a gallon of funky moonshine :)  We are running at near capicity everyday and if Paige moves on this year (she may stay another) I will have to seriously cut back our current production levels.  I think Friday I will make our regular Monday batch in the dough boxes and then do the same amount and bulk ferment it.  Today was nuts crazy and it challenged my steady smooth rhytm a bunch but I took a breath, smiled, and all was good.   Trying experiments with all I have going on from  baking/pizza/being a special needs teacher it can make me too stressed and I am too old to be getting stressed out like I use to when I was younger and the starter/poolish experiments I tried stressed me out too much.  The bulk ferment sounds a lot easier.  Thanks!  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 16, 2014, 09:35:20 PM
The sponge was mixed at about 6:00 PM.  I just took the photo of the sponge.  The sponge was weighed after the mix and it was shy of the weight it was supposed to be.  The sponge weighed 647 grams.  I mixed according to the instructions in the first link at Reply 20 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg305892#msg305892 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg305892#msg305892)  The sponge feels like a regular dough to me.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 17, 2014, 08:35:17 AM
This is what the sponge looked like after about 13 hrs. and again just a few minutes ago.  As can be seen the sponge does have two bubbles on the top of the sponge now.  Since the sponge should only be used after full maturation I wonder what happens if it is not ready this afternoon when I am ready to incorporate it into the final dough.  Dieder Rosada says the sponge should have vital clues to help determine when it is ready.  Those clues are bubbles are evident and some cracks start to form, creating some collapsing.  I wonder if my sponge isn't ready if I could use my heating cabinet at market today.  I also wonder if bigger sponges have a mass effect something like some doughs in that a sponge would ferment faster if it weighs more. 

In this article E. J. Pyler suggests setting sponge dough to ferment at temperatures between 74 to 78 degrees F.  http://www.theartisan.net/temperature_control_baking_1.htm (http://www.theartisan.net/temperature_control_baking_1.htm) 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 17, 2014, 10:31:19 AM
Norma,

What E.J. Pyler says is essentially correct. And, if you go back to the Rosada article that we both referenced earlier in this thread, at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm), you will see that Chart A presupposes a bakery prefermentation temperature of 80-85 degrees F. That is the chart that I modified to conform to the lower prefermentation that you planned to use. That change, along with the longer prefermentation period you decided to use, altered the amount of yeast to use in your sponge preferment.

Typically, a sponge preferment will indicate its readiness to be incorporated into the final dough by peaking and than collapsing onto itself. However, that event will be less pronounced than with a poolish preferment because a sponge preferment has a hydration of around 63% whereas a poolish preferment has a hydration of 100%. I am not sure how critical the peaking and collapsing event is with a sponge preferment. Even when that event occurs, there is still a few hours extra time to use the sponge preferment. In your case, you will have to play things by ear, especially if it is colder at market than it was in your home when you made the sponge preferment. It is possible to take more than one prefermentation into account but that is something that might await a future experiment in the event you achieve success with the present sponge preferment.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: jsaras on March 17, 2014, 10:33:37 AM

Sourdough bread- wonderful. Sourdough Neapolitan pizza- fantastic. Sourdough NY pizza- all wrong.

If that's wrong, I don't want to be right :-D.

At least here on the left coast, the best examples of NY-style pizza use natural leavening.  Vito of Vito's Pizza says he uses his family heirloom yeast from Italy (he refuses to call it a sourdough though).  Pizzanista; sourdough starter.  Luggage Room (it's a WFO, but the flour, dough formulation, bake time and bake temp are more NY than Neapolitan)-sourdough.  I'd rate all of those places as better than the Grimaldi's that opened here recently (not that there's anything wrong with their pizza.)

A noticeable sourdough flavor doesn't work well with bitter vegetable toppings, but with proteins it's wonderful.
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 17, 2014, 11:23:53 AM
Norma,

What E.J. Pyler says is essentially correct. And, if you go back to the Rosada article that we both referenced earlier in this thread, at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm), you will see that Chart A presupposes a bakery prefermentation temperature of 80-85 degrees F. That is the chart that I modified to conform to the lower prefermentation that you planned to use. That change, along with the longer prefermentation period you decided to use, altered the amount of yeast to use in your sponge preferment.

Typically, a sponge preferment will indicate its readiness to be incorporated into the final dough by peaking and than collapsing onto itself. However, that event will be less pronounced than with a poolish preferment because a sponge preferment has a hydration of around 63% whereas a poolish preferment has a hydration of 100%. I am not sure how critical the peaking and collapsing event is with a sponge preferment. Even when that event occurs, there is still a few hours extra time to use the sponge preferment. In your case, you will have to play things by ear, especially if it is colder at market than it was in your home when you made the sponge preferment. It is possible to take more than one prefermentation into account but that is something that might await a future experiment in the event you achieve success with the present sponge preferment.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for referencing the Rosada article again to tell me you used the chart to modify the amount of sponge for me to try. 

I guess I will watch the sponge preferment while I am market to see if it peaks and than collapses onto itself.  I never know what temperature it is going to be when I go to market, but it will probably be colder at this time of the year than at home.  This is what the temperature outside in our area is supposed to be today  http://www.weather.com/weather/tenday/Manheim+PA+17545 (http://www.weather.com/weather/tenday/Manheim+PA+17545) so I would imagine it might be colder at market. 

What I find interesting is the sponge, so far, does not smell much at all.  That is compared to what smell the poolish I used for the preferment Lehmann dough poolish had before I was ready to incorporate it into the final dough.

These are two photos of the sponge from a few minutes ago.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: scott123 on March 17, 2014, 01:14:26 PM
A noticeable sourdough flavor doesn't work well with bitter vegetable toppings, but with proteins it's wonderful.

Jonas, my comment related less to the value of sourdough in pizza (as I said, sourdough in Neapolitan is fantastic), and more to the fact that sourdough in NY style is completely inauthentic.  In all my years eating pizza in NY, I've never tasted a sourdough crust, nor have I ever known anyone who has.  It doesn't exist and most likely never did, considering that ADY use pre-dates the origins of NY style pizza (which I place around WWII and the emergence of the deck oven).  Jeff Varasano confused the heck out of people with his patently wrong knee jerk assumption about Patsy's, but that's been the extent of sourdough in NY pizza.

I have no problem with someone incorporating SD into NY style pizza- just don't call it "NY Style."  "Artisan" works as a label.

As far as Vito goes... he makes a beautiful slice, but I think the whole sourdough angle is some especially creative marketing and a bit of an exaggeration. How old does he claim it is? I mean, come on. If I had to put money on it, I'd wager that he's using good old saccharomyces cerevisiae old dough- much like Patsy's.  In other words, I wouldn't be surprised if this were more of the Jeff Varasano SD over-romanticism.

We really need to get away from mysticizing sourdough.  It's really not that magical. At least, not in the context of NY style pizza.
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: jsaras on March 17, 2014, 01:38:21 PM
Vito told me that his "yeast" (which is  NOT a sourdough per him) was brought over from Italy by a family member over 150 years ago.  Whatever it is, his crust haunts me.
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on March 17, 2014, 03:44:09 PM
Vito told me that his "yeast" (which is  NOT a sourdough per him) was brought over from Italy by a family member over 150 years ago.  Whatever it is, his crust haunts me.

jsaras:  I lived in Ca for 15 years.  Things mutate as they move so far from  the origin/root.  I think it is human nature much like how the classic Italian pizza mutated to the NY style here in the NYC area.  I should be moving back to CA in 6 years or so to open a small pizzeria.  Mine will have no sourdough in it but will be a NY style like pie that I grew up with.  Here is probably my most inspiring pizzeria pizza- Tino's in NJ.  It is no longer there but man that pizza still talks to me 30 years later (time of picture with my wife and youngest brother).  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: scott123 on March 17, 2014, 03:56:20 PM
Vito told me that his "yeast" (which is  NOT a sourdough per him) was brought over from Italy by a family member over 150 years ago.  Whatever it is, his crust haunts me.

According to the slice review, his "yeast" is 500 years old

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/07/vitos-pizza-in-los-angeles-ca.html (http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2012/07/vitos-pizza-in-los-angeles-ca.html)

Jonas, as far as I'm aware, either yeast is isolated in a lab (saccharomyces cerevisiae) or it's captured in the wild, and, because it's the wild, bacteria are always captured as well, which are responsible for producing acid, the 'sour' component.  Commercial/lab isolated = non sourdough, wild = sourdough.  If it is 500 years old, then it's definitely wild/sourdough. FWIW, I do give Vito credit for not mysticizing sourdough and stand fully corrected on that count.

As far as the haunting goes. You're eating pizza from someone who:

1. understands fermentation
2. has the skills to stretch a pizza as far as it should be stretched (.07 to .075)
3. owns an oven capable of fast-ish bakes*

in an area where these attributes are incredibly rare.  That's where the haunting comes from, not the strain of yeast.  It's just a great NY slice in an area, where, for the most part, a great NY slice doesn't exist.

*Based upon some of the mixed reviews I've seen, and on the appearance of the undercrust in the Slice review, I'm confident that even though you witnessed an 8 minute bake, his bake times fluctuate and are most likely in a range from 5 to 8 (with the Slice review pies being closer to 5).
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Chaze215 on March 17, 2014, 05:23:59 PM
Maybe it's just my inexperience, but I had trouble balling cold dough. I couldn't get the doughballs to close properly which then lead to thin spots when I stretched them out. So now I stick to balling and then into the fridge for 2 days. Is there a trick to balling cold dough? Bulk fermenting would save me a lot of room.
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 17, 2014, 05:34:13 PM
I guess I will watch the sponge preferment while I am market to see if it peaks and than collapses onto itself.  I never know what temperature it is going to be when I go to market, but it will probably be colder at this time of the year than at home.  This is what the temperature outside in our area is supposed to be today  http://www.weather.com/weather/tenday/Manheim+PA+17545 (http://www.weather.com/weather/tenday/Manheim+PA+17545) so I would imagine it might be colder at market. 
Norma,

After my last post on the above subject, I found this post by Tom Lehmann at the PMQ Think Tank that discusses how to tell when a sponge preferment is ready:

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/increasing-the-flavor-of-dough.4231/page-2#post-23990 (http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/increasing-the-flavor-of-dough.4231/page-2#post-23990)

FYI, the thread from which the above post came from has one of the highest page view counts of any thread that has ever appeared on the PMQTT forum. I reread a good part ot that thread today, since it deals with dough/crust flavor issues, and it makes for a very interesting read.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on March 17, 2014, 05:34:54 PM
Maybe it's just my inexperience, but I had trouble balling cold dough. I couldn't get the doughballs to close properly which then lead to thin spots when I stretched them out. So now I stick to balling and then into the fridge for 2 days. Is there a trick to balling cold dough? Bulk fermenting would save me a lot of room.

I have tried the bulk fermentation with bagels.  Normally I make the dough, the bagel, and retard in the fridge for 24-48 hours.  When I tried the bulk cold fermentation the bagels were really hard to seal together.   Many came apart on boiling.  This morning we dumped 20lbs of dough into a container and put it in the fridge.  I am leaving it in till wed/thurs.  If I find out the answer later this week I will let you know :)  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: scott123 on March 17, 2014, 05:39:42 PM
Chaz, it is important to keep in mind that cold dough is naturally tighter and less tacky. From videos that I've seen, it appears that for most people that bulk, they scrape the dough out of the container rather than start with an oiled container- if you oil the container, you'll really have issues with closing.  In a similar realm, I think it's important to be careful with flour as well, and use a very light hand- and maybe not even any flour at all.

Because of the cold dough's natural tendency to be bucky/tight, you really want to watch how aggressively you ball.  Sometimes you see people folding dough over and over and over itself when balling.  You want to keep the number of folds minimal with cold dough or it will really fight you and make it difficult to close.

If worse comes to worse, scale the dough, ball it, but don't pinch it, let the balls sit out for a while (maybe 15 minutes), and, as they warm up, they'll both loosen and get tackier and they'll be far easier to pinch shut.  You really shouldn't need to do this, though.

Edit: you could also let the bulk dough temper a bit before balling, but I think tempering the partially formed dough balls would be faster and allow the dough to warm much more evenly. With a tempered bulk, you risk the chances of the outer layer being warmer and the core being still cold.
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: scott123 on March 17, 2014, 05:41:31 PM
This morning we dumped 20lbs of dough into a container and put it in the fridge.  I am leaving it in till wed/thurs.

Walter, did you halve the yeast?
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on March 17, 2014, 05:51:10 PM
Walter, did you halve the yeast?

Scott:  I used 2/3 of the yeast.  When I left at 3pm the dough had been in the fridge almost 8 hours and it barely rose at all.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: scott123 on March 17, 2014, 06:01:02 PM
Walter, this recipe is normally 2 day, right?  If you're refrigerating the dough until thursday, and then doing 1 day balled, that's 4 days.  I might 3/4 the yeast for doubling the time just by itself- outside of the bulk context.

I would watch it very closely.  Cold fermenting dough won't rise much each day, but it will rise a little. If you're seeing any kind of noticeable growth, I'd ball it.  Remember, it's way better to undershoot than overshoot.  There's a few people here who feel that you can re-ball overfermented dough and have a happy outcome, but, for me, I don't think you can put the genie back in the bottle.

If the dough isn't ready on the day you need it, you can just about always find a warmer place to temper it or leave it out of the fridge for a bit longer.
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Chaze215 on March 17, 2014, 06:10:43 PM
Walt : Let me know how you make out with balling that cold dough. I'm curious how it goes for you.
Scott: I think your proposed work flow of scaling the cold dough then letting them sit to warm up a bit and then balling would work best.
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: scott123 on March 17, 2014, 06:20:35 PM
Scott: I think your proposed work flow of scaling the cold dough then letting them sit to warm up a bit and then balling would work best.

Actually, my proposal is scaling, balling a bit, then a warm up/rest before finishing the balling. Letting the scaled dough rest is not a bad idea, and certainly worth trying, but the inner area of the dough that is exposed during the cut (the gash), as it warms, might end up being a bit gooey.  I think it might be better to get those gashes folded under and out of the way before allowing the scaled dough to rest/warm up.
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Chaze215 on March 17, 2014, 06:25:26 PM
Got ya!
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 17, 2014, 06:31:05 PM
Norma,

After my last post on the above subject, I found this post by Tom Lehmann at the PMQ Think Tank that discusses how to tell when a sponge preferment is ready:

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/increasing-the-flavor-of-dough.4231/page-2#post-23990 (http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/increasing-the-flavor-of-dough.4231/page-2#post-23990)

FYI, the thread from which the above post came from has one of the highest page view counts of any thread that has ever appeared on the PMQTT forum. I reread a good part ot that thread today, since it deals with dough/crust flavor issues, and it makes for a very interesting read.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for finding that post by Tom Lehmann to tell when a sponge preferment is ready.  I did not know I could have torn the top skin apart to actually see the internal cell structure and see if it would stick to my hand.  I think maybe my sponge preferment might have been ready.  See what you think from my next post. 

I read that thread before and know it is a very good thread.  I need to reread that thread soon.  Maybe I would be able to understand more now since I have worked with dough more.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 17, 2014, 06:35:34 PM
The temperature at market today was almost 70 degrees F.  At 2:00 PM the first 3 photos show what the sponge looked like.  Looks like your calculations were really good Peter.  Since I am not really familiar how a sponge should look when it has matured enough I thought it looked like it had fallen some, but was not sure if it had fallen enough.  I was ready to mix another batch of dough so I went ahead and mixed it.  At about 3:00 PM the next 2 photos show what the sponge looked like.  The sponge look like it developed a few more bubbles so I don't know what those bubbles meant.  I then incorporated the sponge preferment into the final dough.  The dough felt nice after it was mixed. 

Norma 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 17, 2014, 06:36:15 PM
Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on March 17, 2014, 06:38:47 PM
Walter, this recipe is normally 2 day, right?  If you're refrigerating the dough until thursday, and then doing 1 day balled, that's 4 days.  I might 3/4 the yeast for doubling the time just by itself- outside of the bulk context.

I would watch it very closely.  Cold fermenting dough won't rise much each day, but it will rise a little. If you're seeing any kind of noticeable growth, I'd ball it.  Remember, it's way better to undershoot than overshoot.  There's a few people here who feel that you can re-ball overfermented dough and have a happy outcome, but, for me, I don't think you can put the genie back in the bottle.

If the dough isn't ready on the day you need it, you can just about always find a warmer place to temper it or leave it out of the fridge for a bit longer.

Scott:  I decided to do our 3-4 day dough.  This week is quaterly testing which means most kids leave at lunch time for the day so our business will be down.    Our 2 day can go 3-4 no problem.  I mix with very cold water and that really slows down the fermentation.  I am leaning more towards a 3 day ferment.  I am finding it adds a bit more of what I like in taste, color, texture, and if it goes 4 days it still is a good crust.  I did some measuring and thinking on rearranging some things and we will be able to squeeze in a double door fridge that will hold all the dough we need if the bulk thing doesn't work out.  Along with the single door fridge it would give us room for approx 42 dough boxes which is way more than we will ever need.     Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on March 17, 2014, 06:40:13 PM
Norma:  I look forward to seeing how the dough works out.  Sorry if I have derailed this thread some but if bulk cold fermenting works out it is also about adding flavor too right?  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 17, 2014, 06:54:45 PM
Norma:  I look forward to seeing how the dough works out.  Sorry if I have derailed this thread some but if bulk cold fermenting works out it is also about adding flavor too right?  Walter

Walter,

You did not derailed this thread.  I agree if bulk cold fermenting adds a better flavor I am all for finding out about that.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 17, 2014, 06:59:28 PM
The temperature at market today was almost 70 degrees F.  At 2:00 PM the first 3 photos show what the sponge looked like.  Looks like your calculations were really good Peter.  Since I am not really familiar how a sponge should look when it has matured enough I thought it looked like it had fallen some, but was not sure if it had fallen enough.  I was ready to mix another batch of dough so I went ahead and mixed it.  At about 3:00 PM the next 2 photos show what the sponge looked like.  The sponge look like it developed a few more bubbles so I don't know what those bubbles meant.  I then incorporated the sponge preferment into the final dough.  The dough felt nice after it was mixed. 
Norma,

Based on what appears from the sides and bottom of your storage container to be a lot of activity in the sponge preferment, I would say that you are perhaps in pretty good shape. However, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating.

In the thread that you referenced in the opening post of this thread, you might have noticed Tom's comments in post #9 at http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/more-flavour-in-the-dough.14995/#post-91509 (http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/more-flavour-in-the-dough.14995/#post-91509) that sponge preferments "are very tolerant to variations in fermentation time so you don't have much if any variation in flavor due to differences in sponge age over the course of the day." That might be something to keep in mind for future reference should you decide to proceed further with the sponge project. Actually, what Tom describes as a sponge in the above post #9 reminds me more of a prefermented dough (aka old dough) but at the single dough ball level rather than as part of an entire dough batch.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 17, 2014, 07:18:32 PM
Sorry if I have derailed this thread some but if bulk cold fermenting works out it is also about adding flavor too right?  Walter
Walter,

No need to apologize. Any time you change the fermentation protocol, it will have an effect on the flavor of the finished crust. The question becomes whether the flavor impact is noticeable and meaningful.

In your case, with your dough consisting of only flour, water, yeast and salt, you are not left with a lot of options to improve the flavor of the finished crust, especially if the window of fermentation is made intentionally short. Setting aside for the moment the use of the bulk dough ferment, you could get some improvement by using a different flour or flour blend, and maybe you could test out the use of cake yeast, which some people contend does make a difference, but beyond these simple expedients you are left with the options of using preferments or natural starters. One advantage of using preferments is that they can be made at day's end and left to preferment overnight. That way, the advantages of such preferments are conferred to the final dough early the next day when the final dough batch is made. This can be a time saver because you used the overnight hours. Again, the question will be whether any improvement is detectable and desirable to make it worth the while to prepare and use the preferments.

I have intentionally not mentioned using flavor enhancers like honey or oils or herbs or color enhancers like dried milk or dairy whey or diastatic malts since they would take your dough in a different direction that you want to go. 

Peter

Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 17, 2014, 07:50:21 PM
Norma,

Based on what appears from the sides and bottom of your storage container to be a lot of activity in the sponge preferment, I would say that you are perhaps in pretty good shape. However, the proof of the pudding will be in the eating.

In the thread that you referenced in the opening post of this thread, you might have noticed Tom's comments in post #9 at http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/more-flavour-in-the-dough.14995/#post-91509 (http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/more-flavour-in-the-dough.14995/#post-91509) that sponge preferments "are very tolerant to variations in fermentation time so you don't have much if any variation in flavor due to differences in sponge age over the course of the day." That might be something to keep in mind for future reference should you decide to proceed further with the sponge project. Actually, what Tom describes as a sponge in the above post #9 reminds me more of a prefermented dough (aka old dough) but at the single dough ball level rather than as part of an entire dough batch.

Peter

Peter,

I know the proof of the pudding will be in the eating, but I am glad you thought my sponge appeared that it was ready to be incorporated into the final dough.

I did not notice Tom's comments at post #9 until you commented on it.  That is good to hear.  I do plan on continuing with a sponge preferment until I really find out if that is something my customers like and I also like.  What do you mean about what Tom describes as a sponge in the #9 post reminds you more of an old dough, but at the single dough ball level rather than the entire dough batch?  I really don't understand about using old dough.  I did try different times adding frozen dough balls, from the previous week, that were defrosted (also fermented for about a day before being frozen) and thought those pizzas made with those frozen dough balls added to one batch did give a better flavor in the crust.  I guess I was too lazy to make extra dough balls each week to see if those frozen dough balls really gave the crust a better flavor.  I think I added at least 4 or 5 dough balls to a batch a couple of times.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 17, 2014, 08:18:49 PM
What do you mean about what Tom describes as a sponge in the #9 post reminds you more of an old dough, but at the single dough ball level rather than the entire dough batch?  I really don't understand about using old dough.  I did try different times adding frozen dough balls, from the previous week, that were defrosted (also fermented for about a day before being frozen) and thought those pizzas made with those frozen dough balls added to one batch did give a better flavor in the crust.  I guess I was too lazy to make extra dough balls each week to see if those frozen dough balls really gave the crust a better flavor.  I think I added at least 4 or 5 dough balls to a batch a couple of times.
Norma,

What I was referring to is what is discussed under the section "Pre-fermented dough" of the Rosada article at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm). The old dough can be created as such (I sometimes refer to this as a "new old dough") or it can be a portion of a prior day's dough production. Old dough in this latter respect is similar to scrap dough that is leftover at the end of the day that is blended into the next dough batch. But typically the amount of the recycled dough should be no more than about 15% of the new dough (see Tom Lehmann's PMQTT post #2 at http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/resusing-yesterdays-dough.13650/#post-84232 (http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/resusing-yesterdays-dough.13650/#post-84232)). Usually, the purpose of reusing the scrap dough is to save money, not to materially alter the characteristics of the new dough.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: scott123 on March 17, 2014, 08:20:19 PM
...if the bulk thing doesn't work out.

Walter, the bulk thing will work out :) IF you give it enough time.  Nobody ever converts a balled ferment to a bulk/balled ferment and hits it out of the park on their first try.  As I said before, you'll need to dial in the yeast.  You'll also most likely have to get the hang of balling cold dough, and might have to incorporate a warm up time for the dough balls to get them to close well.  I'm thinking it'll take about three batches for you to dial it all in.

I'm certainly not discouraging you from buying a new fridge, but having a bulk in your arsenal wouldn't hurt, either for your present or future settings, or... if you end up consulting for someone with limited space, it wouldn't hurt there either.
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on March 17, 2014, 08:56:01 PM
Walter,

No need to apologize. Any time you change the fermentation protocol, it will have an effect on the flavor of the finished crust. The question becomes whether the flavor impact is noticeable and meaningful.

In your case, with your dough consisting of only flour, water, yeast and salt, you are not left with a lot of options to improve the flavor of the finished crust, especially if the window of fermentation is made intentionally short. Setting aside for the moment the use of the bulk dough ferment, you could get some improvement by using a different flour or flour blend, and maybe you could test out the use of cake yeast, which some people contend does make a difference, but beyond these simple expedients you are left with the options of using preferments or natural starters. One advantage of using preferments is that they can be made at day's end and left to preferment overnight. That way, the advantages of such preferments are conferred to the final dough early the next day when the final dough batch is made. This can be a time saver because you used the overnight hours. Again, the question will be whether any improvement is detectable and desirable to make it worth the while to prepare and use the preferments.

I have intentionally not mentioned using flavor enhancers like honey or oils or herbs or color enhancers like dried milk or dairy whey or diastatic malts since they would take your dough in a different direction that you want to go. 

Peter

thanks for that information Peter.  I have not used cake yeast in  years and am not real excited about blending flours.   I am going to keep my eye on Norma's experiment.  I am not interested in adding herbs, honey, malt (do use it our bagels).  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on March 17, 2014, 09:02:45 PM
Walter, the bulk thing will work out :) IF you give it enough time.  Nobody ever converts a balled ferment to a bulk/balled ferment and hits it out of the park on their first try.  As I said before, you'll need to dial in the yeast.  You'll also most likely have to get the hang of balling cold dough, and might have to incorporate a warm up time for the dough balls to get them to close well.  I'm thinking it'll take about three batches for you to dial it all in.

I'm certainly not discouraging you from buying a new fridge, but having a bulk in your arsenal wouldn't hurt, either for your present or future settings, or... if you end up consulting for someone with limited space, it wouldn't hurt there either.

I hear you Scott.  I am definetly interested in mastering this.  I have been bulk cold ferementing bread dough for years.  The process is - mix and immediately refrigerate in bulk for 1-2 days.  remove, let warm up, shape, let rise, bake.  THis can easily take 4-6 hours at room temp but we now have a 6'5" tall heated/humidity controled warming box that will hold 18 sheet pans.  This baby opens up lots of quick options.  I get in at 6:30 and we start making pizzas at 10am.  So there is plenty of time in theory but that time is also spent making/boiling bagels, breads, and the 3,000 cookies we make a week.  Still I think if balling them cold out of the fridge is too time consuming, a bit in the warming box at 90-100 degrees/high humidity to keep from drying out will losen them up.  I would first weight out the dough pieces, then put them in.  that would get them warm and soft in probably less than a 1/2 hour I bet. then lightly ball them and put in dough boxes to rise for baking.  I would prefer not to spend 3k on a new fridge! Once we retire I hope on a small shop and fridge space will most likely be an issue so figuring this out will be a win now and a win later.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 17, 2014, 09:08:17 PM
Norma,

What I was referring to is what is discussed under the section "Pre-fermented dough" of the Rosada article at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm). The old dough can be created as such (I sometimes refer to this as a "new old dough") or it can be a portion of a prior day's dough production. Old dough in this latter respect is similar to scrap dough that is leftover at the end of the day that is blended into the next dough batch. But typically the amount of the recycled dough should be no more than about 15% of the new dough (see Tom Lehmann's PMQTT post #2 at http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/resusing-yesterdays-dough.13650/#post-84232 (http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/resusing-yesterdays-dough.13650/#post-84232)). Usually, the purpose of reusing the scrap dough is to save money, not to materially alter the characteristics of the new dough.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for referencing those links.  I think I understand better now.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 18, 2014, 09:37:07 PM
My sponge pizzas did not give a better flavor in the crust today.  Steve, my taste testers and I tasted slices and they were not as good as my regular one day cold fermented crusts.  It seemed to me like they might not have been enough fermentation going on in the final dough balls.  Usually there are pretty many fermentation bubbles when I open up the boardwalk style dough balls into skins.  I could not detect many bubbles of fermentation in the skins of the sponge dough balls or skins. 

The sponge dough balls did open well and easily into skins.  The sponge dough handled well in all other ways.

As can be seen there is not much of any rim crust coloring.  The flavor of the crust was okay of the slices we ate but nothing special.  The bottom crusts browned okay.  I only used two sponge dough balls to make pizzas.  One sponge pizza was made about 12:30 PM and another one was made at about 5:25 PM.

Norma   
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 18, 2014, 09:38:48 PM
Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: dmckean44 on March 19, 2014, 12:45:07 AM
Norma,

No matter how they taste, you always manage to make them look delicious.
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on March 19, 2014, 06:04:53 AM
Norma:  Thanks for the feedback on the experiment.  When I do an overnight preferment with just flour, water, IDY, it has a slightly yeasty smell the next morning.  Like you I found my experiment to not rival a cold ferment.  The pizzas looked good anyway and I bet no one tasted a difference.   Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 19, 2014, 08:43:13 AM
Norma,

No matter how they taste, you always manage to make them look delicious.

Dave,

Thanks!  The sponge preferment slices tasted somewhat like a pizza made from a regular pizza business.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 19, 2014, 08:53:53 AM
Norma:  Thanks for the feedback on the experiment.  When I do an overnight preferment with just flour, water, IDY, it has a slightly yeasty smell the next morning.  Like you I found my experiment to not rival a cold ferment.  The pizzas looked good anyway and I bet no one tasted a difference.   Walter

Walter,

I wonder if the sponge final dough had enough IDY.  I only used 0.01 lb. in the final mix.  I think normally for 5 five dough ball batch I would have used 0.18 lb. of IDY for a straight dough one day cold ferment.  I guess I should have measured by using a teaspoon or by oz. instead of using the lb. weight on my scale.  I thought the IDY I used didn't look like enough, but at the time did not think about using another way to measure the IDY.   

Steve, my taste testers and I could tell the difference in how the slices tasted. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: c0mpl3x on March 19, 2014, 01:07:01 PM
The temperature at market today was almost 70 degrees F.  At 2:00 PM the first 3 photos show what the sponge looked like.  Looks like your calculations were really good Peter.  Since I am not really familiar how a sponge should look when it has matured enough I thought it looked like it had fallen some, but was not sure if it had fallen enough.  I was ready to mix another batch of dough so I went ahead and mixed it.  At about 3:00 PM the next 2 photos show what the sponge looked like.  The sponge look like it developed a few more bubbles so I don't know what those bubbles meant.  I then incorporated the sponge preferment into the final dough.  The dough felt nice after it was mixed. 

Norma

norma, i had a chance to get the olive oil in this post for $12 at community market. is this a good price vs what you pay?
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 19, 2014, 01:28:28 PM
Norma,

I was curious to see how the sponge preferment dough formulation would turn out. I know that you weren't crazy about the use of a biga, so the sponge preferment was a step away from a biga but still far away from a poolish, with which you had better results before at market when you used that preferment form with the Lehmann NY style dough formulation. Just about any standard dough formulation can be adapted to a preferment format but there is no guarantee that the results will be acceptable since there are so many different possibilities and variations and potential outcomes. It also doesn't help that you have so many constraints imposed on what you do at market, which can become limiting factors since you are forced to do things that comply with those constraints.

Remember, also, that preferments are largely creatures of bread making, where many of the procedures are different than with pizza making. As with other bread making techniques, it became natural for artisan pizza makers to use them for pizza dough making also, just as you have tried to do.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 19, 2014, 04:51:29 PM
norma, i had a chance to get the olive oil in this post for $12 at community market. is this a good price vs what you pay?

Jon,

Yes, that is a good price to pay for the Lira olive pomace oil.  I purchased the Lira olive pomace oil at http://www.webstaurantstore.com/lira-olive-pomace-oil-1-gallon-tin/101OLIVEPOMT.html (http://www.webstaurantstore.com/lira-olive-pomace-oil-1-gallon-tin/101OLIVEPOMT.html) and you can see you actually paid less than I did.  ;D  I never tried the Libra olive pomace oil for anything else than in my pizza dough and to oil my dough balls, but it might be okay for other things too.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 19, 2014, 05:00:51 PM
Norma,

I know that you weren't crazy about the use of a biga, so the sponge preferment was a step away from a biga but still far away from a poolish, with which you had better results before at market when you used that preferment form with the Lehmann NY style dough formulation. Just about any standard dough formulation can be adapted to a preferment format but there is no guarantee that the results will be acceptable since there are so many different possibilities and variations and potential outcomes. It also doesn't help that you have so many constraints imposed on what you do at market, which can become limiting factors since you are forced to do things that comply with those constraints.

Remember, also, that preferments are largely creatures of bread making, where many of the procedures are different than with pizza making. As with other bread making techniques, it became natural for artisan pizza makers to use them for pizza dough making also, just as you have tried to do.

Peter

Peter,

I really didn't mind the use of a biga before and don't think I tried enough with a biga as a preferment if I recall right.  Did I actually use the right amount of yeast in my final dough for the 5 dough ball batch?  If I did use the right amount of IDY in the final dough do you think it could be upped so the dough balls would ferment better until the next day, or don't you think that would really matter when using a sponge preferment.  I would think more yeast would be needed in the final dough. 

I know I have many constraints imposed upon what I do at market.  Is there anything you can think of for me to try next? 

I do know preferments are largely creatures of bread making.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 19, 2014, 06:28:55 PM
I really didn't mind the use of a biga before and don't think I tried enough with a biga as a preferment if I recall right.
Norma,

I apparently read too much into your posts at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11647.msg107233#msg107233 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11647.msg107233#msg107233) and Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13769.msg138269;topicseen#msg138269 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13769.msg138269;topicseen#msg138269).

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 19, 2014, 07:15:02 PM
Did I actually use the right amount of yeast in my final dough for the 5 dough ball batch?  If I did use the right amount of IDY in the final dough do you think it could be upped so the dough balls would ferment better until the next day, or don't you think that would really matter when using a sponge preferment.  I would think more yeast would be needed in the final dough. 

I know I have many constraints imposed upon what I do at market.  Is there anything you can think of for me to try next? 
Norma,

Since all I did was to adapt your existing workable recipe to a sponge preferment format, I believe that you used the correct amount of IDY in the final dough. However, that shouldn't deter you from increasing the amount of IDY in the final mix. You might even consider moving more in the direction of a poolish preferment by using more yeast in either or both the preferment and final mix, along with a higher hydration for the preferment (whatever we would call it) so that there is more activity during the prefermentation period.

As for what to try next, I was actually going to ask you what you were considering next ;D. However, no matter what you do, you will be at the mercy of the conditions that exist at market. In my opinion, the best tasting crusts come from using natural starters or simply long fermentation windows. Natural starters pose the same kinds of problems as using preferments because of their temperature sensitivity, and they can be especially finicky in a variable temperature environment and a one-day-a-week setting. As for the benefits of a long fermentation, they can only be achieved by time. As scott123 aptly put it recently, you can't compress the best attributes and benefits achieved by a long fermentation into a short window.

You seem to have achieved a stable market situation with the Boardwalk and Detroit-style pizzas. Are you not satisfied with those as market offerings?

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 19, 2014, 10:14:27 PM
Norma,

I apparently read too much into your posts at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11647.msg107233#msg107233 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11647.msg107233#msg107233) and reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13769.msg138269;topicseen#msg138269 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13769.msg138269;topicseen#msg138269).

Peter

Norma,

Since all I did was to adapt your existing workable recipe to a sponge preferment format, I believe that you used the correct amount of IDY in the final dough. However, that shouldn't deter you from increasing the amount of IDY in the final mix. You might even consider moving more in the direction of a poolish preferment by using more yeast in either or both the preferment and final mix, along with a higher hydration for the preferment (whatever we would call it) so that there is more activity during the prefermentation period.

As for what to try next, I was actually going to ask you what you were considering next ;D. However, no matter what you do, you will be at the mercy of the conditions that exist at market. In my opinion, the best tasting crusts come from using natural starters or simply long fermentation windows. Natural starters pose the same kinds of problems as using preferments because of their temperature sensitivity, and they can be especially finicky in a variable temperature environment and a one-day-a-week setting. As for the benefits of a long fermentation, they can only be achieved by time. As scott123 aptly put it recently, you can't compress the best attributes and benefits achieved by a long fermentation into a short window.

You seem to have achieved a stable market situation with the Boardwalk and Detroit-style pizzas. Are you not satisfied with those as market offerings?

Peter

Peter,

I did really like that pizza that Matt produced but he was using a much different oven than I do and I never really understand how Matt made his biga.  As I think you know my biga pizzas weren't successful, or I didn't play around with a biga preferment long enough.  I was using a fairly low hydration back then for the biga.  I know I really liked the preferment Lehman dough and know I stopped making that dough when I went on that pizza tour to NYC with other members.  When I came back and used a one day cold ferment I don't think my customers could tell the difference.

I could understand moving to a preferment and using more yeast in either or both the preferment and final mix, along with a higher hydration for the preferment might be an idea.  I think in the end though whatever I would try would be at the mercy of what I can do at market and I also can't do the math to figure out those formulations.   

I don't recall if Deanne (Terry) ever posted his whole dough formulation different times, but at Reply 17 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7931.msg68168#msg68168 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7931.msg68168#msg68168) Terry said he made made a dough and left it sit out for a few hours and then put it in the cooler.  Terry felt at that point in time that he felt a long cold fermentation really wasn't necessary to improve the flavor or texture that much.  I think Terry used a combination of a starter and other yeast at Reply 27  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8363.msg74300#msg74300 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8363.msg74300#msg74300)   I guess I am just using Terry as an example at what can be done with a NY style pizza in getting better flavors in a crust.  Also Terry's good thread about his pizzas http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg64913#msg64913 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg64913#msg64913) and a couple of photos of one of his pizzas at Reply 11 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65075#msg65075 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65075#msg65075) and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65237#msg65237 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65237#msg65237) Was this Terry's final dough formulation at Reply 33 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65290#msg65290 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65290#msg65290)  I wonder why Terry use that much salt in his formulation.  Terry's oven was also higher than I keep mine.  I can't recall how long Terry fermented the Ah Beetz dough.

In the end, yes, I guess I am satisfied with the Boardwalk and Detroit-style pizzas for market offerings.  I guess I won't try any other experiments.  I have been moving up on hydration slowly for my boardwalk style pizzas. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 20, 2014, 11:04:06 AM
Norma,

Your last post was like a trip down memory lane. Terry Deane did indeed make some remarkable pizzas, which he deemed to be NY style even though he unconventionally used a natural starter (and sometimes added ADY or IDY). More than once he commented on the benefits of using a natural starter (like the Camaldoli) to get outstanding crust flavor, along with his insistence of using top notch cheeses, sauce and toppings. His pizzas were quintessential NYC 18" size and he used an above average hydration (around 65%+) and a high oven temperature (around 650 degrees F). I don't know which dough formulation was his last one but the one you cited at Reply 33 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65290#msg65290 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65290#msg65290) used an amount of poolish that was somewhat on the low side for a poolish-based preferment.  As you know, Terry sold his Abbotsford BC location to open Pizzeria Barbarella as a memorial and tribute to his deceased mother: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13731.msg137746#msg137746 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13731.msg137746#msg137746). What he made at Pizzeria Barbarella was quite different than what he made at his BC pizzeria, at least in terms of pizza size and the oven used. However, judging from his website at http://www.pizzeriabarbarella.com/ (http://www.pizzeriabarbarella.com/), it looks like Terry has remained true to his concept of using the best and finest ingredients to make his pizzas.

Based on what you said about Terry's efforts to get more crust flavor in a short period of time, one thing you might consider is to give your bulk dough or the dough balls formed from the bulk dough a fair amount of bench time at room temperature before refrigerating. This is something that Tom Lehmann generally frowns upon because of his concern that the dough balls will start to ferment and expand to the point where they acquire insulative properties and qualities and, as a result, are harder to cool down. And if the dough balls are held at room temperature too long and the dough balls do cool down slower than desired, they may have a tendency to "blow" by the time they are ready to be used. However, Tom's concern is usually stated in the context of large numbers of dough balls being made, for example, a hundred or more dough balls that, in the ideal world, are capable of being be formed within a roughly 20-minute time frame. In your case, with far fewer dough balls, you might be able to tolerate say, one or maybe two hours of room temperature fermentation (depending on the actual room temperature), before refrigerating. What I can't say is how much improvement in final crust flavor you will get using this technique. But that technique is one that some pizza operators use, maybe because they perceive that it produces a better pizza or because they were taught to do it that way, even if an expert like Tom generally advises against it for cold fermented dough balls for the reasons mentioned above.

Unfortunately, you are correct about the drawbacks of using preferments in the temperature environment in which you are forced to operate. It would be possible to control the amounts of preferment to use, whatever their form, and also the duration of the prefermentation, in order to simplify matters, but the factor that you can't control is the temperature. In your case, especially because you are not comfortable with all of the math that goes along with modifying preferments and dough formulations, someone would have to come up with a spreadsheet of some equivalent thereof that would handle all of the math involved so that all that you would just have to do is plug in the variables. For example, the variables could include not only the basic total dough formulation (with baker's percents) but also the desired amount of preferment in relation to a specific ingredient (like the weight of flour or water, total dough batch weight, etc.), the prefermentation temperature, and the desired duration of prefermentation. That would give you the amount of yeast needed for the preferment under the conditions specified. Whether such a tool could be created, of created easily, I have no idea. But, as I see it, that would be your only solution.

Peter

Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 20, 2014, 02:25:38 PM
Norma,

Your last post was like a trip down memory lane. Terry Deane did indeed make some remarkable pizzas, which he deemed to be NY style even though he unconventionally used a natural starter (and sometimes added ADY or IDY). More than once he commented on the benefits of using a natural starter (like the Camaldoli) to get outstanding crust flavor, along with his insistence of using top notch cheeses, sauce and toppings. His pizzas were quintessential NYC 18" size and he used an above average hydration (around 65%+) and a high oven temperature (around 650 degrees F). I don't know which dough formulation was his last one but the one you cited at Reply 33 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65290#msg65290 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65290#msg65290) used an amount of poolish  that was somewhat on the low side for a poolish-based preferment.  As you know, Terry sold his Abbotsford BC location to open Pizzeria Barbarella as a memorial and tribute to his deceased mother: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13731.msg137746#msg137746 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13731.msg137746#msg137746). What he made at Pizzeria Barbarella was quite different than what he made at his BC pizzeria, at least in terms of pizza size and the oven used. However, judging from his website at http://www.pizzeriabarbarella.com/ (http://www.pizzeriabarbarella.com/), it looks like Terry has remained true to his concept of using the best and finest ingredients to make his pizzas.

Based on what you said about Terry's efforts to get more crust flavor in a short period of time, one thing you might consider is to give your bulk dough or the dough balls formed from the bulk dough a fair amount of bench time at room temperature before refrigerating. This is something that Tom Lehmann generally frowns upon because of his concern that the dough balls will start to ferment and expand to the point where they acquire insulative properties and qualities and, as a result, are harder to cool down. And if the dough balls are held at room temperature too long and the dough balls do cool down slower than desired, they may have a tendency to "blow" by the time they are ready to be used. However, Tom's concern is usually stated in the context of large numbers of dough balls being made, for example, a hundred or more dough balls that, in the ideal world, are capable of being be formed within a roughly 20-minute time frame. In your case, with far fewer dough balls, you might be able to tolerate say, one or maybe two hours of room temperature fermentation (depending on the actual room temperature), before refrigerating. What I can't say is how much improvement in final crust flavor you will get using this technique. But that technique is one that some pizza operators use, maybe because they perceive that it produces a better pizza or because they were taught to do it that way, even if an expert like Tom generally advises against it for cold fermented dough balls for the reasons mentioned above.

Unfortunately, you are correct about the drawbacks of using preferments in the temperature environment in which you are forced to operate. It would be possible to control the amounts of preferment to use, whatever their form, and also the duration of the prefermentation, in order to simplify matters, but the factor that you can't control is the temperature. In your case, especially because you are not comfortable with all of the math that goes along with modifying preferments and dough formulations, someone would have to come up with a spreadsheet of some equivalent thereof that would handle all of the math involved so that all that you would just have to do is plug in the variables. For example, the variables could include not only the basic total dough formulation (with baker's percents) but also the desired amount of preferment in relation to a specific ingredient (like the weight of flour or water, total dough batch weight, etc.), the prefermentation temperature, and the desired duration of prefermentation. That would give you the amount of yeast needed for the preferment under the conditions specified. Whether such a tool could be created, of created easily, I have no idea. But, as I see it, that would be your only solution.

Peter

Peter,

I agree that Terry did make some remarkable pizzas.  I used to enjoy Terry's posts and seeing photos of his pizzas.   

I never followed up to see if Pizzeria Barbarella is still open.  I guess it is still open, and the photos of the pizzas look great on facebook.  It looks like Terry, or whoever uses a WFO gas oven now to make those pizzas.  https://www.facebook.com/pizzeriabarbarella?filter=2 (https://www.facebook.com/pizzeriabarbarella?filter=2) It looks like Pizzeria Barbarella is doing okay.  http://scoutmagazine.ca/2013/12/01/diner-the-top-10-pizzerias-in-vancouver-1-east-broadways-awesome-barbarella/ (http://scoutmagazine.ca/2013/12/01/diner-the-top-10-pizzerias-in-vancouver-1-east-broadways-awesome-barbarella/) I really don't know but some of the comments on the last article said Terry parted ways with Pizzeria Barbarella, but still might have a stake in that pizzeria.  Another person commented and said Terry doesn't work there anymore. 

If I tried Terry's formulation with a natural starter and either IDY or ADY would you advise to up the natural preferment amount, decrease the salt a little and up the IDY or ADY for a one day cold ferment?  I think I would decrease the hydration to about 65%. 

I can try a bulk ferment at room temperature before balling to see if that helps get any better crust flavor too.  I have also wondered if I could successfully have consistent dough balls with doing a 4 day cold ferment.  That kind of scares me though, in not knowing how many dough balls I would need for a Tuesday, depending on the weather, because the weather can change a lot in that time period.  I also wonder if I would be able consistently to make dough that would be good to use from Friday until Tuesday.

Do you really think a bulk cold ferment would give a better taste in the crust?  I have a hard time believing that would give any better flavor in the crust because in my opinion it would be just like cold fermenting for the same amount of days.  I also think it would be hard to ball those dough balls, and think the time frame after the balling would need to be long enough for the gluten to relax in those dough balls.  I think you have seen where I have had problems with reballs and the dough balls being hard to open.  The only way I think there could be better flavor if the mass effect comes into play some way.  Maybe I am missing something though.

I know the fact is I can not control the varying temperatures at market so I think using a preferment like a biga or sponge would be too hard for me to figure out even if one formulation would work.  I guess I will leave the bigas and sponges go for now.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 20, 2014, 04:06:52 PM
I searched some and can't find out what happened to Terry Deane.  There are pretty many photos of Terry Deane's pizzas on Google images.  I think I was just curious if Terry is now making pizzas or not.

This was an article about where Terry opened Pizza Barbarella.  http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/whats-a-restaurant-owner-to-do-after-a-shooting/article4246192/ (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/british-columbia/whats-a-restaurant-owner-to-do-after-a-shooting/article4246192/) 

A couple of more articles but there are more about Pizzeria Barbarella. 

http://www.shermansfoodadventures.com/2013/01/pizzeria-barbarella.html (http://www.shermansfoodadventures.com/2013/01/pizzeria-barbarella.html)

http://www.604foodtography.com/2011/12/31/pizzeria-barbarella-pre-opening-tasting/ (http://www.604foodtography.com/2011/12/31/pizzeria-barbarella-pre-opening-tasting/)

I didn't know before searching that Terry was a sax jazz musician as well as a great pizza maker.


Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 20, 2014, 06:32:15 PM
If I tried Terry's formulation with a natural starter and either IDY or ADY would you advise to up the natural preferment amount, decrease the salt a little and up the IDY or ADY for a one day cold ferment?  I think I would decrease the hydration to about 65%. 
Norma,

As best I can tell from re-reading Terry Deane's thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg64913#msg64913 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg64913#msg64913), the dough formulation that Terry used is the one that was mentioned earlier, at Reply 33 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65290#msg65290 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65290#msg65290). For that formulation, the natural poolish preferment was made with the Camaldoli starter, and the final dough was subjected to about two days of cold fermentation, followed by about two hours tempering at room temperature. The poolish represented about 9% of the total formula flour. That is a bit more than Jeff Varasano used, and Jeff also used commercial yeast and the dough was cold fermented. At one point, Terry talked about eliminating the commercial yeast (IDY) in his dough altogether since he felt that his natural poolish preferment worked well enough on its own as to make the IDY unnecessary. I assume that you would like to retain the use of the IDY. Is that correct?

For your information, a classic poolish uses about 20-80% of the total formula water, by weight, and that amount of water is elaborated using an equal weight of flour. So, a threshold decision that has to be made is how much poolish do you want to use? Unfortunately, there is no easy way to answer that question without conducting actual bake tests, since there are so many possibilities, but maybe your first cut should be to use the same amount of poolish that Terry used if you are trying to mimic his dough but with more yeast to accommodate a one day cold ferment. That would leave only the questions of the total formula hydration, which you indicated you want to lower to 65%, and the amount of salt you would like to use and its type (I would assume Morton's Kosher salt).

To the foregoing, I would add that using more natural poolish preferment would be like adding more yeast to the dough. So, together with the IDY, the dough would ferment faster unless the amount of IDY is reduced from its normal value. Using more natural poolish preferment would also have the effect of making a dough that is more bread-like than pizza-like. 

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 20, 2014, 07:00:50 PM
I can try a bulk ferment at room temperature before balling to see if that helps get any better crust flavor too.  I have also wondered if I could successfully have consistent dough balls with doing a 4 day cold ferment.  That kind of scares me though, in not knowing how many dough balls I would need for a Tuesday, depending on the weather, because the weather can change a lot in that time period.  I also wonder if I would be able consistently to make dough that would be good to use from Friday until Tuesday.

Do you really think a bulk cold ferment would give a better taste in the crust?  I have a hard time believing that would give any better flavor in the crust because in my opinion it would be just like cold fermenting for the same amount of days.  I also think it would be hard to ball those dough balls, and think the time frame after the balling would need to be long enough for the gluten to relax in those dough balls.  I think you have seen where I have had problems with reballs and the dough balls being hard to open.  The only way I think there could be better flavor if the mass effect comes into play some way.  Maybe I am missing something though.
Norma,

With some experimentation to determine the proper amount of yeast to use, and assuming that your dough cold storage equipment operates at a fairly constant temperature, I offhand don't see any reason why you can't make a dough that can sustain four days of cold fermentation. One risk is that something could happen, such as a power or equipment failure, that renders the dough balls unusable on the Tuesday when you need to have them. To know whether such an event occurs to render your dough unusable, you would perhaps have to check on the dough balls on Monday to see if they are still OK. To be on the safe side, in case something happens that makes your dough balls unusable, you would perhaps want to have a second dough formulation at the ready that you can turn to on Monday to make a one-day cold fermented dough to be used on Tuesday. That same dough formulation might also be used in the event you find that you need more dough balls than what you made on the prior Friday. Those extra dough balls would be made on Monday for the next day (Tuesday). Most likely the greatest risk would be if bad weather forced closure of the market. Maybe then you could freeze the unused dough balls for some future use if you have adequate storage capacity.

If you decide to stick with your regular one-day cold ferment, bulk fermenting the dough at room temperature before balling and refrigerating the dough balls should help produce more desirable byproducts of fermentation, in part because of the larger dough mass and the mass effect (which might require adjustment to the amount of yeast to use). The question then becomes whether the increase in the byproducts of fermentation lead to a noticeably better taste in the finished crust. The only way to know is to try the room temperature bulk ferment.

As for cold fermenting your dough in bulk, the thought occurred to me to suggest that as a possibility but I decided to hold back on that suggestion until Walter has completed his experimentation with that method and we have a better idea as to its value and any problems or other issues that might need or warrant addressing or further experimentation.

Peter

Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 20, 2014, 08:09:40 PM
Norma,

As best I can tell from re-reading Terry Deane's thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg64913#msg64913 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg64913#msg64913), the dough formulation that Terry used is the one that was mentioned earlier, at Reply 33 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65290#msg65290 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65290#msg65290). For that formulation, the natural poolish preferment was made with the Camaldoli starter, and the final dough was subjected to about two days of cold fermentation, followed by about two hours tempering at room temperature. The poolish represented about 9% of the total formula flour. That is a bit more than Jeff Varasano used, and Jeff also used commercial yeast and the dough was cold fermented. At one point, Terry talked about eliminating the commercial yeast (IDY) in his dough altogether since he felt that his natural poolish preferment worked well enough on its own as to make the IDY unnecessary. I assume that you would like to retain the use of the IDY. Is that correct?

For your information, a classic poolish uses about 20-80% of the total formula water, by weight, and that amount of water is elaborated using an equal weight of flour. So, a threshold decision that has to be made is how much poolish do you want to use? Unfortunately, there is no easy way to answer that question without conducting actual bake tests, since there are so many possibilities, but maybe your first cut should be to use the same amount of poolish that Terry used if you are trying to mimic his dough but with more yeast to accommodate a two day cold ferment. That would leave only the questions of the total formula hydration, which you indicated you want to lower to 65%, and the amount of salt you would like to use and its type (I would assume Morton's Kosher salt).

To the foregoing, I would add that using more natural poolish preferment would be like adding more yeast to the dough. So, together with the IDY, the dough would ferment faster unless the amount of IDY is reduced from its normal value. Using more natural poolish preferment would also have the effect of making a dough that is more bread-like than pizza-like. 

Peter

Peter,

I would like to try an experiment using something like Terry Deane's natural poolish preferment, in addition to using IDY, but cold ferment for only one day instead of two days.  I could try Terry amount of poolish preferment at 9% of the total formula flour, since I would like to see what happens. 

What I don't really understand is you said that a classic poolish uses about 20-80% of the formula water, by weight, and that amount of water is elaborated using an equal amount of flour.  What would the 9% of the total formula flour percentage be if it was used on the preferment dough calculating tool if it was expressed as the total formula water?  Yes, I would like to try 65% hydration and use a value at 2% of the Morton's Kosher salt. 

I can understand that using more of natural poolish preferment would be like adding more yeast to the dough, so unless the IDY is reduced from its normal value the dough would ferment faster.  I think I read enough of Marco's teachings to know using more of the natural poolish preferment would also have the effect of making a dough that is more like bread-like than pizza-like.  Do you think that is why Terry used such a small amount of the Camaldoli starter?  I would be using the Ischia starter though instead of the Camaldoli starter. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 20, 2014, 08:24:08 PM
Norma,

With some experimentation to determine the proper amount of yeast to use, and assuming that your dough cold storage equipment operates at a fairly constant temperature, I offhand don't see any reason why you can't make a dough that can sustain four days of cold fermentation. One risk is that something could happen, such as a power or equipment failure, that renders the dough balls unusable on the Tuesday when you need to have them. To know whether such an event occurs to render your dough unusable, you would perhaps have to check on the dough balls on Monday to see if they are still OK. To be on the safe side, in case something happens that makes your dough balls unusable, you would perhaps want to have a second dough formulation at the ready that you can turn to on Monday to make a one-day cold fermented dough to be used on Tuesday. That same dough formulation might also be used in the event you find that you need more dough balls than what you made on the prior Friday. Those extra dough balls would be made on Monday for the next day (Tuesday). Most likely the greatest risk would be if bad weather forced closure of the market. Maybe then you could freeze the unused dough balls for some future use if you have adequate storage capacity.

If you decide to stick with your regular one-day cold ferment, bulk fermenting the dough at room temperature before balling and refrigerating the dough balls should help produce more desirable byproducts of fermentation, in part because of the larger dough mass and the mass effect (which might require adjustment to the amount of yeast to use). The question then becomes whether the increase in the byproducts of fermentation lead to a noticeably better taste in the finished crust. The only way to know is to try the room temperature bulk ferment.

As for cold fermenting your dough in bulk, the thought occurred to me to suggest that as a possibility but I decided to hold back on that suggestion until Walter has completed his experimentation with that method and we have a better idea as to its value and any problems or other issues that might need or warrant addressing or further experimentation.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me with some experimentation to determine the proper amount of yeast to use, and assuming that my dough cold storage pizza prep fridge operates at a fairly constant temperature you don't offhand see any reason why I could not make a dough that can sustain four days of cold fermentation.  I know there is the risk that a power failure, or equipment failure, could happen that would render my dough unusable.  I already have my regular formulation that I could use on a Monday if something would happen.  What amount of IDY do you suggest for a 4 day cold ferment to start with?   

Right now I don't know if I will stick to a one day cold ferment until I would know the results of bulk fermenting at room temperature before balling and refrigerating, and also see how a 4 day cold ferment goes.  I now understand that the larger dough mass and the mass effect might need a little less yeast used in the formulation.  I will try a batch of doing a bulk ferment on Monday.

I understand you would like to see the results of Walter's tests with cold bulk fermenting to see if there are any problems or if it has value, or if more experiments are needed.

Norma 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 20, 2014, 08:39:37 PM
Norma,

I cited the 9% number and its relation to the total formula flour because that is how it was stated by Terry in Reply 25 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65261#msg65261 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65261#msg65261) (you might also note that the IDY should have been 0.15%, not 1.5%). Had Terry calculated the amount of water in his poolish in relation to the total formula water, the number would have been 16.92/250.03 = 6.76%. Terry just used a different reference, that's all. I stayed with Terry's number so as not to confuse you. Hopefully, the above explanation will deconfuse you.

I also thought to mention Marco's posts on using small amounts of natural preferment (up to 5% of the total formula water), but didn't because his use of the small amount of natural preferment was for a room temperature fermented dough, not a cold fermented dough. Using up to 5% natural preferment alone for a cold fermentation application would not work out well. But you are correct that Marco drew the line between bread dough and pizza dough. That line was at 5% of the total formula water.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 20, 2014, 08:43:44 PM
Thanks for telling me with some experimentation to determine the proper amount of yeast to use, and assuming that my dough cold storage pizza prep fridge operates at a fairly constant temperature you don't offhand see any reason why I could not make a dough that can sustain four days of cold fermentation.  I know there is the risk that a power failure, or equipment failure, could happen that would render my dough unusable.  I already have my regular formulation that I could use on a Monday if something would happen.  What amount of IDY do you suggest for a 4 day cold ferment to start with?   
Norma,

Can you link me to the dough formulation that you would like to use to make a dough that can go out to four days of cold fermentation and also the temperature at which you maintain your pizza prep fridge?

Peter

Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 20, 2014, 09:13:18 PM
Norma,

I cited the 9% number and its relation to the total formula flour because that is how it was stated by Terry in Reply 25 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65261#msg65261 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65261#msg65261) (you might also note that the IDY should have been 0.15%, not 1.5%). Had Terry calculated the amount of water in his poolish in relation to the total formula water, the number would have been 16.92/250.03 = 6.76%. Terry just used a different reference, that's all. I stayed with Terry's number so as not to confuse you. Hopefully, the above explanation will deconfuse you.

I also thought to mention Marco's posts on using small amounts of natural preferment (up to 5% of the total formula water), but didn't because his use of the small amount of natural preferment was for a room temperature fermented dough, not a cold fermented dough. Using up to 5% natural preferment alone for a cold fermentation application would not work out well. But you are correct that Marco drew the line between bread dough and pizza dough. That line was at 5% of the total formula water.

Peter

Peter,

I missed that post by Terry at Reply 25 when I was searching for what formulation he was using.  I understand the IDY should have been 0.15% not 1.5%.  Your explanation did unconfused me.  Thanks for the calculation!

I understand that using up to 5% of a natural preferment alone for a cold fermentation application would not work out well.  Thanks for referencing the line Marco drew between bread dough and pizza dough.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 20, 2014, 09:33:58 PM
Norma,

Can you link me to the dough formulation that you would like to use to make a dough that can go out to four days of cold fermentation and also the temperature at which you maintain your pizza prep fridge?

Peter

Peter,

The formulation I would like to try for a four day cold ferment is at Reply 29 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg306235#msg306235 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg306235#msg306235) but that formulation with the amount of IDY I used can't go out to 4 days.

My pizza prep fridge stays at about at 36 degrees F on a regular market day and the temperatures are a little lower when the doors aren't opened and shut.  I would say the temperature probably would be at 34 degrees or 35 degrees F on non market days.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 21, 2014, 10:40:06 AM
Peter,

The formulation I would like to try for a four day cold ferment is at Reply 29 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg306235#msg306235 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg306235#msg306235) but that formulation with the amount of IDY I used can't go out to 4 days.

My pizza prep fridge stays at about at 36 degrees F on a regular market day and the temperatures are a little lower when the doors aren't opened and shut.  I would say the temperature probably would be at 34 degrees or 35 degrees F on non market days.
Norma,

If your pizza prep fridge regularly operates at around 34-36 degrees F and you have been using 0.50-0.55% IDY this time of year, then the adjusted percent of IDY would be 72 hours/96 hours x 0.50-0.55% IDY, or between 0.375% IDY and 0.4125% IDY, or an average of around 0.394%. Maybe you can try that percent in the expanded dough calculating tool and see how that works out. The above calculation assumes that the next dough batch will be prepared as you usually do.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 21, 2014, 11:36:46 AM
Norma,

If your pizza prep fridge regularly operates at around 34-36 degrees F and you have been using 0.50-0.55% IDY this time of year, then the adjusted percent of IDY would be 72 hours/96 hours x 0.50-0.55% IDY, or between 0.375% IDY and 0.4125% IDY, or an average of around 0.394%. Maybe you can try that percent in the expanded dough calculating tool and see how that works out. The above calculation assumes that the next dough batch will be prepared as you usually do.

Peter

Peter,

I sure don't know why but the formulation I used at Reply 29  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg306235#msg306235 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg306235#msg306235) with 0.25% IDY for a 3 day cold ferment seemed to be enough for the 3 day cold ferment.  I don't know if you recall when I posted about what I did with that 3 day cold ferment using that formulation, but to refresh your mind the first part is at Reply 1805 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg304434#msg304434 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg304434#msg304434) which shows I had a final dough temperature on my one batch of 72.3 degrees F.  At post Reply 1806 and the next post you can see the dough balls cold fermented for 3 days using 0.25% IDY fermented about right when put in the pizza prep fridge.  The dough balls in the deli case were fermented too much, although they could be used.

Don't you think if I tried an average of around 0.394% IDY in the formulation my dough balls might ferment too fast over a four day cold ferment?

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 21, 2014, 12:24:06 PM
I sure don't know why but the formulation I used at Reply 29  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg306235#msg306235 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg306235#msg306235) with 0.25% IDY for a 3 day cold ferment seemed to be enough for the 3 day cold ferment.  I don't know if you recall when I posted about what I did with that 3 day cold ferment using that formulation, but to refresh your mind the first part is at Reply 1805 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg304434#msg304434 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg304434#msg304434) which shows I had a final dough temperature on my one batch of 72.3 degrees F.  At post Reply 1806 and the next post you can see the dough balls cold fermented for 3 days using 0.25% IDY fermented about right when put in the pizza prep fridge.  The dough balls in the deli case were fermented too much, although they could be used.

Don't you think if I tried an average of around 0.394% IDY in the formulation my dough balls might ferment too fast over a four day cold ferment?

Norma
Norma,

In Reply 29 that you cited I apparently misinterpreted the statement "IDY was 0.25% for the 3 day cold ferment but usually is between 0.50% to 0.55% for this time of the year" to mean that while your recipe called for 0.25% IDY you found it necessary to use 0.50-0.55% IDY this time of year.

If you actually used 0.25% IDY and that worked for the three-day cold ferment, then the conversion for four days of cold fermentation, all else being equal, would be 72/96 x 0.25% IDY = 0.1875% IDY. However, this amount of IDY implies that you would try to achieve the same finished dough temperature (72.3 degrees F) for the next dough batch with 0.1875% IDY. If you plan to shoot for a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F next time, which would suggest using warmer water to achieve that finished dough temperature, then you would reduce the amount of IDY to compensate for the higher finished dough temperature. Maybe something like 0.17-0.18% IDY will work.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 21, 2014, 01:02:01 PM
Norma,

In Reply 29 that you cited I apparently misinterpreted the statement "IDY was 0.25% for the 3 day cold ferment but usually is between 0.50% to 0.55% for this time of the year" to mean that while your recipe called for 0.25% IDY you found it necessary to use 0.50-0.55% IDY this time of year.

If you actually used 0.25% IDY and that worked for the three-day cold ferment, then the conversion for four days of cold fermentation, all else being equal, would be 72/96 x 0.25% IDY = 0.1875% IDY. However, this amount of IDY implies that you would try to achieve the same finished dough temperature (72.3 degrees F) for the next dough batch with 0.1875% IDY. If you plan to shoot for a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F next time, which would suggest using warmer water to achieve that finished dough temperature, then you would reduce the amount of IDY to compensate for the higher finished dough temperature. Maybe something like 0.17-0.18% IDY will work.

Peter

Peter,

I actually did used 0.25% IDY for that 3 day cold ferment.  Thanks for telling me the conversion for 4 days of cold fermentation now would be 0.1875% IDY if I achieved the same final dough temperature. Thanks also for telling me if I shoot for a final dough temperature of around 80 degrees F today that would suggest to use warmer water.  I think about it a little and decide whether to try about 0.18% IDY.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 21, 2014, 07:08:47 PM
Norma,

On the matter of the Terry Deane dough formulation using the natural poolish preferment, I forgot to ask you earlier if there is a particular pizza size or dough ball weight that you would like to use, and also if there is a particular number of dough balls or dough batch size you would like to make based on Terry's dough formulation.

For now, I am assuming that you would use a hydration of 65%, the same amount (9%) of natural starter in relation to the total formula flour that Terry used (but using the Ischia starter in your case instead of the Camaldoli starter), Morton's Kosher salt at 2%, and an amount of IDY suitable for a one-day cold fermentation. The thickness factor would be the same as Terry used, and a bowl residue compensation of 2% would be used even though Terry did not use one.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 21, 2014, 08:34:31 PM
Norma,

On the matter of the Terry Deane dough formulation using the natural poolish preferment, I forgot to ask you earlier if there is a particular pizza size or dough ball weight that you would like to use, and also if there is a particular number of dough balls or dough batch size you would like to make based on Terry's dough formulation.

For now, I am assuming that you would use a hydration of 65%, the same amount (9%) of natural starter in relation to the total formula flour that Terry used (but using the Ischia starter in your case instead of the Camaldoli starter), Morton's Kosher salt at 2%, and an amount of IDY suitable for a one-day cold fermentation. The thickness factor would be the same as Terry used, and a bowl residue compensation of 2% would be used even though Terry did not use one.

Peter

Peter,

No, there is no particular pizza size, or dough ball weight I want using Terry Deane's dough formulation.  I would only like to try one dough ball first to see how it works out if that isn't too much of a problem.  I don't think, if I recall right, that I ever made a NY style pizza without oil so I curious how that would taste baked in my oven. 

Yes, use a hydration of 65%, 9% of natural starter in relation to the total formula flour that Terry used, Morton's Kosher salt at 2%, and an amount of IDY suitable for a one-day cold fermentation.  That is fine if the TF is the same as Terry used.  I really don't care or not if a bowl residue compensation is used. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 21, 2014, 08:37:36 PM
The four day cold fermented dough was mixed this afternoon.  It can be seen what temperature it was at market.  My digital thermometer stopped working and I didn't have any extra batteries to put in the thermometer.  I would guess the temperature of the final dough was around 76 degrees F.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 22, 2014, 09:40:54 AM
No, there is no particular pizza size, or dough ball weight I want using Terry Deane's dough formulation.  I would only like to try one dough ball first to see how it works out if that isn't too much of a problem.  I don't think, if I recall right, that I ever made a NY style pizza without oil so I curious how that would taste baked in my oven. 

Yes, use a hydration of 65%, 9% of natural starter in relation to the total formula flour that Terry used, Morton's Kosher salt at 2%, and an amount of IDY suitable for a one-day cold fermentation.  That is fine if the TF is the same as Terry used.  I really don't care or not if a bowl residue compensation is used. 

Norma
Norma,

I decided to stick with what Terry did in terms of the total dough ball weight (22.5 ounces) and pizza size (18"), and I decided not to use a bowl residue compensation since Terry did not use one. So, the final dough may be less than 22.5 ounces, which is what Terry would have experienced also. I have set forth below the specifics of the dough formulation I created so that you can see how I arrived at everything.

Using the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html), I came up with the following dough formulation based on the inputs you provided:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (65%):
Salt (2%):
IDY (0.28%):
Total (167.28%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
IDY:
Preferment:
Total:

381.32 g  |  13.45 oz | 0.84 lbs
247.86 g  |  8.74 oz | 0.55 lbs
7.63 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.59 tsp | 0.53 tbsp
1.07 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
637.88 g | 22.5 oz | 1.41 lbs | TF = N/A
 
 
17.16 g | 0.61 oz | 0.04 lbs
17.16 g | 0.61 oz | 0.04 lbs
34.32 g | 1.21 oz | 0.08 lbs

 
364.16 g | 12.85 oz | 0.8 lbs
230.7 g | 8.14 oz | 0.51 lbs
7.63 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.59 tsp | 0.53 tbsp
1.07 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
34.32 g | 1.21 oz | 0.08 lbs
637.88 g | 22.5 oz | 1.41 lbs  | TF = N/A

Details
1. The dough (22.5 ounces) is for a single 18" pizza, with a nominal thickness factor of 22.5/(3.14159 x 9 x 9) = 0.08842.
2. The Preferment is a natural poolish preferment based on using the Ischia starter.
3. The Preferment has a hydration of 100% (50% flour and 50% water, by weight). (The Preferment percentage of water is 50%.)
4. The Preferment has a weight (34.32 grams) equal to 9% of the total formula flour (391.32 grams). (9% of 391.32 = 34.32 grams.)
5. There is no bowl residue compensation (so the actual final dough weight will most likely be less than 22.5 ounces).
6. The flour is the Full Strength flour from General Mills.
7. The salt is Morton's Kosher salt.
8. The value of the IDY is intended to permit a single day of cold fermentation.
9. The desired finished dough temperature is around 80 degrees F.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 22, 2014, 10:21:19 AM
Norma,

I decided to stick with what Terry did in terms of the total dough ball weight (22.5 ounces) and pizza size (18"), and I decided not to use a bowl residue compensation since Terry did not use one. So, the final dough may be less than 22.5 ounces, which is what Terry would have experienced also. I have set forth below the specifics of the dough formulation I created so that you can see how I arrived at everything.

Using the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html), I came up wit the following dough formulation based on the inputs you provided:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (65%):
Salt (2%):
IDY (0.28%):
Total (167.28%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
IDY:
Preferment:
Total:

381.32 g  |  13.45 oz | 0.84 lbs
247.86 g  |  8.74 oz | 0.55 lbs
7.63 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.59 tsp | 0.53 tbsp
1.07 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
637.88 g | 22.5 oz | 1.41 lbs | TF = N/A
 
 
17.16 g | 0.61 oz | 0.04 lbs
17.16 g | 0.61 oz | 0.04 lbs
34.32 g | 1.21 oz | 0.08 lbs

 
364.16 g | 12.85 oz | 0.8 lbs
230.7 g | 8.14 oz | 0.51 lbs
7.63 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.59 tsp | 0.53 tbsp
1.07 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
34.32 g | 1.21 oz | 0.08 lbs
637.88 g | 22.5 oz | 1.41 lbs  | TF = N/A

Details
1. The dough (22.5 ounces) is for a single 18" pizza, with a nominal thickness factor of 22.5/(3.14159 x 9 x 9) = 0.08842.
2. The Preferment is a natural poolish preferment based on using the Ischia starter.
3. The Preferment has a hydration of 100% (50% flour and 50% water, by weight). (The Preferment percentage of water is 50%.)
4. The Preferment has a weight (34.32 grams) equal to 9% of the total formula flour (391.32 grams). (9% of 391.32 = 34.32 grams.)
5. There is no bowl residue compensation (so the actual final dough weight will most likely be less than 22.5 ounces).
6. The flour is the Full Strength flour.
7. The salt is Morton's Kosher salt.
8. The value of the IDY is intended to permit a single day of cold fermentation.
9. The desired finished dough temperature is around 80 degrees F.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you so much for setting Terry's formulation for me to try with what I wanted changed for a one day cold ferment.  After seeing the TF you posted I was a little surprised at the TF.  I probably won't get the same results as Terry since I my deck oven is at lower temperature, I am using a different starter, I am using a different flour and my deck oven is not the same brand as Terry's.
   
I printed out the formulation now and took the Ischia starter out of the fridge last evening.  After pouring off the hooch and feeding the Ischia starter it took off nicely.  This is what the Ischia starter looks like this morning.  The smell of the Ischia starter has already gone from an acidic smell to a nice smell.

Norma 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 22, 2014, 11:12:18 AM
Norma,

I noticed this morning that I forgot to answer a question you posed to me in Reply 116 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg308233;topicseen#msg308233 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg308233;topicseen#msg308233) as to the reason why Terry might have used such a small amount of his Camaldoli starter (9% of the flour weight). I have no idea as to why he did that or who might have influenced that decision. However, Terry did say that his pizzas were in the Dom DeMarco mold but that he used local ingredients and a sourdough crust (Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65262#msg65262 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65262#msg65262)). Later, to pay homage to Dom, Terry went so far as to name one of his pizzas "DiFara" (see Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65182;topicseen#msg65182 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65182;topicseen#msg65182)).

There are a few other tidbits I gleaned from reading Terry's AH-BEETZ thread and another thread started by Terry that you might find of interest. For example, in Reply 25 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65261#msg65261 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65261#msg65261), Terry noted that a flour with a protein content of 12.5-13% was suitable to make his style of pizza. As it so happens, and as noted at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/full-strength-flour-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/53391000?mct=Flour&ct=spring-patent&typ=Type (http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/full-strength-flour-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/53391000?mct=Flour&ct=spring-patent&typ=Type), the Full Strength flour that you are using has a protein content of 12.6%. In that same post, Terry also mentioned that he was using Morton's Kosher salt, just as you plan to use. And, in the opening post of another thread that Terry started before the AH-BEETZ thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7178.msg61910;topicseen#msg61910 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7178.msg61910;topicseen#msg61910), Terry mentioned that he tried the Ischia culture and liked it a lot. And, in Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7178.msg61932#msg61932 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7178.msg61932#msg61932), Terry discussed his dough making regimen.

Earlier, before revisiting the earlier thread that Terry started, I had made mention in this thread of the similarity of what Terry was doing to what Jeff Varasano was doing.  In response to my mention of Jeff to Terry, he addressed this similarity at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7178.msg61937#msg61937 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7178.msg61937#msg61937). You will also see in that thread that I did some conversions of Terry's dough recipe to the format used by the preferment dough calculating tool. I even went so far as to say that sometime I planned to try his recipe but I must have gotten a case of amnesia because I do not recall ever attempting his dough recipe :-D.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 22, 2014, 11:45:21 AM
Norma,

I noticed this morning that I forgot to answer a question you posed to me in Reply 116 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg308233;topicseen#msg308233 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg308233;topicseen#msg308233) as to the reason why Terry might have used such a small amount of his Camaldoli starter (9% of the flour weight). I have no idea as to why he did that or who might have influenced that decision. However, Terry did say that his pizzas were in the Dom DeMarco mold but that he used local ingredients and a sourdough crust (Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65262#msg65262 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65262#msg65262)). Later, to pay homage to Dom, Terry went so far as to name one of his pizzas "DiFara" (see Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65182;topicseen#msg65182 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65182;topicseen#msg65182)).

There are a few other tidbits I gleaned from reading Terry's AH-BEETZ thread and another thread started by Terry that you might find of interest. For example, in Reply 25 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65261#msg65261 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7561.msg65261#msg65261), Terry noted that a flour with a protein content of 12.5-13% was suitable to make his style of pizza. As it so happens, and as noted at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/full-strength-flour-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/53391000?mct=Flour&ct=spring-patent&typ=Type (http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/full-strength-flour-bromated-enriched-malted-50-lb/53391000?mct=Flour&ct=spring-patent&typ=Type), the Full Strength flour that you are using has a protein content of 12.6%. In that same post, Terry also mentioned that he was using Morton's Kosher salt, just as you plan to use. And, in the opening post of another thread that Terry started before the AH-BEETZ thread, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7178.msg61910;topicseen#msg61910 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7178.msg61910;topicseen#msg61910), Terry mentioned that he tried the Ischia culture and liked it a lot. And, in Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7178.msg61932#msg61932 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7178.msg61932#msg61932), Terry discussed his dough making regimen.

Earlier, before revisiting the earlier thread that Terry started, I had made mention in this thread of the similarity of what Terry was doing to what Jeff Varasano was doing.  In response to my mention of Jeff to Terry, he addressed this similarity at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7178.msg61937#msg61937 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7178.msg61937#msg61937). You will also see in that thread that I did some conversions of Terry's dough recipe to the format used by the preferment dough calculating tool. I even went so far as to say that sometime I planned to try his recipe but I must have gotten a case of amnesia because I do not recall ever attempting his dough recipe :-D.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for referencing all of those links.  I really enjoyed reading Terry's posts that I have seen, and he even helped me to learn to make fresh mozzarella.  I also really liked the looks of Terry's pizzas.  I didn't know Terry named a pizza after Dom DeMarco.
 
I do find that interesting that Terry used a flour that was very close to the range of protein that I now use.
   
Terry posted at Reply 25 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7178.msg62121#msg62121 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7178.msg62121#msg62121) he was going to use the Camaldoli starter because it was milder, but thought the Ishcia starter had a stronger rise.  I see Terry posted that what he did in mixing was very similar to Jeff's method but Terry learned a lot from a baker.  I never read that thread of Terry's about paying homage to Dom DeMarco and didn't know Terry started with a lower hydration.  That thread was before I before I became a member here on the forum.  I am glad you did help Terry do some conversions so other members that wanted to could to make his kind of pizzas.

There is still time for you to try out a pizza like Terry's.  Fire up your starter!  :-D  I am curious as when you actually made your last pizza if you are willing to share that information.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 22, 2014, 03:01:44 PM
I am curious as when you actually made your last pizza if you are willing to share that information.
Norma,

The last pizza I ate was a frozen Vito & Nicks II pizza that I found at a Whole Foods. It was only so so. The last pizza I "made" was using a refrigerated dough ball from my local supermarket. I was more interested in the ingredients list and Nutrition Facts than a compelling need to make a pizza out of it. I think it ended up being a pepperoni pizza but it was not so good as to induce me to try to reverse engineer and clone it.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 22, 2014, 06:51:02 PM
Norma,

The last pizza I ate was a frozen Vito & Nicks II pizza that I found at a Whole Foods. It was only so so. The last pizza I "made" was using a refrigerated dough ball from my local supermarket. I was more interested in the ingredients list and Nutrition Facts than a compelling need to make a pizza out of it. I think it ended up being a pepperoni pizza but it was not so good as to induce me to try to reverse engineer and clone it.

Peter

Thanks Peter!  I see you purchase frozen dough balls too.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 24, 2014, 06:12:50 PM
I mixed Terry's dough this morning.  The Ischia starter was bubbling fine.  The dough ball is shown right after I mixed it this morning and the final dough temperature.  The last two photos are of Terry's dough ball when I arrived at market today.  Terry's dough balls smells very good from using the Ischia starter.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 24, 2014, 06:15:59 PM
The next two photos are of the four day cold fermented dough balls and how they looked today (the dough balls were fermented for 3 days today).  The dough balls looked like they are doing fine today.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 24, 2014, 06:21:59 PM
The next photos are of a batch of dough I made today that I mixed frozen defrosted dough balls in and also mixed some extra dough that was leftover from making the four day cold fermented dough.  I left those dough balls sit out for 1 ½ hrs. before putting them into the pizza prep fridge.  It was 46 degrees F at market today.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 25, 2014, 09:32:54 PM
Terry's dough ball fermented very nicely until this afternoon.  The dough ball was left at room temperature for about 2 ½ hrs. to warm up.  The dough ball opened very easily.  Terry's pizza baked well.  I thought there was a nice crispness on the bottom crust and the rim crust was moist even though there was not a lot of oven spring for the hydration that was used.  The rim crust had a crisp to it too.  I thought Terry's pizza tasted good and had a different taste in the crust than my normal boardwalk style pizzas.  Steve thought the pizza was a little too crispy in the rim crust, but thought Terry's pizza tasted good. 

I wonder if the rim crust would be a little less crispy if a little oil was added to Terry's formulation. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 25, 2014, 09:35:49 PM
The rest of the photos of Terry's pizza.  It did snow some in our area today.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 25, 2014, 09:46:12 PM
I did not have a lot of time to take photos of the 4 day cold fermented dough pizzas (all the dough balls were used to make pizzas), but Steve and I are stumped that those pizzas did not have a better taste in the crust than my normal one day cold fermented dough balls.  We even thought that my one day cold fermented crusts taste better than the 4 day cold fermented crusts.  I don't think I will ever be able to figure out why stuff happens.  There was no blistering on the 4 day cold fermented rim crusts.

The dough balls did ferment okay in the 4 day cold ferment. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 25, 2014, 09:54:32 PM
The batch of dough that had the frozen dough balls added, along with the extra dough from the four day cold ferment, did open very easily and baked with a browner rim crust.  The bottom crust looked something like the other bottom crusts that I posted today.  I only had time to take one photo of those pizzas.  They looked better than my other boardwalk style pizzas because of the better rim crust browning.  The taste of the crust was good, but when eating a slice the rim crust was more chewy even though the same flour was used in all the doughs.  The more chewier rim crust was something I was not looking for, but don't think most people would have noticed that.  The pizzas still were good in all other ways.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on March 26, 2014, 07:21:28 AM
Norma:  thanks for the the report.  I am very suprised your 1 day dough tasted as good as the 4 day.  Maybe the addition of oil/sugar in your dough is the taste difference from our dough that has no oil/sugar? Could the sugar/oil affect how the yeast reacts and the dough develops over days?  With our 4 day the taste, browning, texture is night and day difference over a 1-3 day and so much so I get a bit nervous selling a 1 day dough.  Also our oven differences may add something or maybe your stand is in one of those alien vortexes I see on the History channel alien shows :-D?  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 26, 2014, 08:30:21 AM
Terry's dough ball fermented very nicely until this afternoon.  The dough ball was left at room temperature for about 2 ½ hrs. to warm up.  The dough ball opened very easily.  Terry's pizza baked well.  I thought there was a nice crispness on the bottom crust and the rim crust was moist even though there was not a lot of oven spring for the hydration that was used.  The rim crust had a crisp to it too.  I thought Terry's pizza tasted good and had a different taste in the crust than my normal boardwalk style pizzas.  Steve thought the pizza was a little too crispy in the rim crust, but thought Terry's pizza tasted good. 

I wonder if the rim crust would be a little less crispy if a little oil was added to Terry's formulation. 

Norma
Norma,

I think your results reflected the lower oven temperature you used as compared with the oven temperature that Terry used. I believe that he was using an oven temperature in excess of 600 degrees F (he was shooting for around 700 degrees at one point when he was investigating ovens), and he said that his bake times were around 4-7 minutes. A high hydration value doesn't automatically translate into a better or more oven spring. You need an oven with enough oomph to go along with the higher hydration value. And if you find that you need a fairly long bake time, the finished crust can be crispier than you would like because of the loss of moisture in the crust due to the longer bake. Even Terry mentioned on occasion that his pizzas had crispy crusts so that may have been an inherent attribute of the pizzas he made using the dough formulation that was posted on the AH-BEETZ thread and his particular bake protocol as well, especially for a crust baked at the high end of his bake time.

In your case, I think I would lower the hydration value to 63% and add about 2% oil to see if that fixes the problem. If you decide you would like to give this another try and need help with modifying the formulation to reflect the above changes, let me know.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 26, 2014, 08:35:33 AM
Norma:  thanks for the the report.  I am very suprised your 1 day dough tasted as good as the 4 day.  Maybe the addition of oil/sugar in your dough is the taste difference from our dough that has no oil/sugar? Could the sugar/oil affect how the yeast reacts and the dough develops over days?  With our 4 day the taste, browning, texture is night and day difference over a 1-3 day and so much so I get a bit nervous selling a 1 day dough.  Also our oven differences may add something or maybe your stand is in one of those alien vortexes I see on the History channel alien shows :-D?  Walter

Walter,

I have no idea why my one day cold fermented dough makes a better tasting pizza in the crust than the four day cold fermented dough did.  I told Steve it is hard to know why stuff happens and he also did agree.  Steve has been tasting my boardwalk style pizzas for a long while.  Steve has also tasted his pizzas from a one day cold ferment to a lot longer cold ferment.  Steve's results don't jibe with my results.  When I posted about the 3 day cold fermented dough at Reply 1810 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg305067#msg305067 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg305067#msg305067) it can be seen I said the crust did taste very similar.  There was a lot better blistering going on though.  Why there was not better blistering yesterday is still a mystery to me. 

I am beginning to think something goes on at market that goes again the whole grain of cold fermenting as what we know from here on the forum and what pizza dough experts say.  I told Steve no one would probably believe what I said, but it was true.

I have experimented with many formulations for the boardwalk style dough and have no explanation of why things happen at this point in time.   

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 26, 2014, 08:52:24 AM
I did not have a lot of time to take photos of the 4 day cold fermented dough pizzas (all the dough balls were used to make pizzas), but Steve and I are stumped that those pizzas did not have a better taste in the crust than my normal one day cold fermented dough balls.  We even thought that my one day cold fermented crusts taste better than the 4 day cold fermented crusts.  I don't think I will ever be able to figure out why stuff happens.  There was no blistering on the 4 day cold fermented rim crusts.

The dough balls did ferment okay in the 4 day cold ferment. 

Quote
I have no idea why my one day cold fermented dough makes a better tasting pizza in the crust than the four day cold fermented dough did.  I told Steve it is hard to know why stuff happens and he also did agree.  Steve has been tasting my boardwalk style pizzas for a long while.  Steve has also tasted his pizzas from a one day cold ferment to a lot longer cold ferment.  Steve's results don't jibe with my results.  When I posted about the 3 day cold fermented dough at Reply 1810 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg305067#msg305067 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg305067#msg305067) it can be seen I said the crust did taste very similar.  There was a lot better blistering going on though.  Why there was not better blistering yesterday is still a mystery to me. 

I am beginning to think something goes on at market that goes again the whole grain of cold fermenting as what we know from here on the forum and what pizza dough experts say.  I told Steve no one would probably believe what I said, but it was true.

I have experimented with many formulations for the boardwalk style dough and have no explanation of why things happen at this point in time.
   

Norma,

Since you and Steve did not repeal any laws of science, were I to hazard a guess, I would say that the problem was due to insufficient fermentation. And if I were to look for a culprit, it would be the stable, relatively low temperature of your pizza dough fridge that was uninterrupted over the long weekend by multiple openings and closings. This is something I have experienced even here in Texas when I have made and cold fermented dough balls and left town for several days, only to discover upon my return that the dough had not risen nearly as much as I had expected or would have imagined. I also learned from my Papa John's reverse engineering work that a dough ball that is targeted for a long cold fermentation is not really usable after only two or three days of cold fermentation. It needs longer than that. Also, a low blistering activity is often a sign of underfermentation. I saw this underfermentation phenomenon with all of the experimental De Lorenzo dough balls that I made where I intentionally tried to make dough balls that exhibited almost no bubbling during formation into skins.

If I am correct in the above assessment, the options available to you to address this issue would be one or more of the following: 1) increase the amount of IDY, 2) use a higher finished dough temperature, 3) rest the dough, in bulk or as dough balls, for a period of time at room temperature before refrigerating, and 4) use a longer temper time at room temperature. These situations call for some trial and error to get the desired outcome. Not all darts thrown at a dartboard hit the bulls-eye. Some will, but some will hit the wall next to the bulls-eye or fall to the floor. The answer is to be patient, learn from the results you get, even if they puzzle or frustrate you, and keep trying.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 26, 2014, 09:03:40 AM
Norma,

I think your results reflected the lower oven temperature you used as compared with the oven temperature that Terry used. I believe that he was using an oven temperature in excess of 600 degrees F (he was shooting for around 700 degrees at one point when he was investigating ovens), and he said that his bake times were around 4-7 minutes. A high hydration value doesn't automatically translate into a better or more oven spring. You need an oven with enough oomph to go along with the higher hydration value. And if you find that you need a fairly long bake time, the finished crust can be crispier than you would like because of the loss of moisture in the crust due to the longer bake. Even Terry mentioned on occasion that his pizzas had crispy crusts so that may have been an inherent attribute of the pizzas he made using the dough formulation that was posted on the AH-BEETZ thread and his particular bake protocol as well, especially for a crust baked at the high end of his bake time.

In your case, I think I would lower the hydration value to 63% and add about 2% oil to see if that fixes the problem. If you decide you would like to give this another try and need help with modifying the formulation to reflect the above changes, let me know.

Peter

Peter,

I agree that my results reflected the lower oven temperature I use compared to the oven temperatures Terry used.  I think my bake time was around 6 minutes, but I didn't time it.  My deck oven temperatures are not even across the whole deck and I know Terry used a different brand deck oven than I do along with the higher temperatures.  I know a higher hydration dough doesn't automatically translate into a better or more oven spring.  Many factors goes into good oven spring.  Thanks for telling me that Terry did mention on occasion that his pizzas had crisp crusts. 

What I found interesting when using Terry's dough was that in the one slice of pizza I ate how when it cooled down and was cold it had great eating properties.  It tasted better than most pizzas when eaten cold without a reheat.  There was no limp bottom crust.

Another thing Steve and I found interesting was Terry's dough did have a regular Ischia sourdough smell when Steve arrived at market, but it changed almost to a regular smelling dough in a matter of a less than a couple of hours.  A tiny sourdough smell was there but it changed a lot.

Your idea of lowering the hydration to 63% and adding about 2% oil sounds like a good idea to see if it fixes the crisper rim crust.  I would like to give Terry's dough another try with the changes.  There was something really good about Terry's pizza.

Norma 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 26, 2014, 09:24:28 AM
Your idea of lowering the hydration to 63% and adding about 2% oil sounds like a good idea to see if it fixes the crisper rim crust.  I would like to give Terry's dough another try with the changes.  There was something really good about Terry's pizza.

Norma
Norma,

Here you are:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
Salt (2%):
IDY (0.28%):
Oil (2%):
Total (167.28%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
IDY:
Preferment:
Oil:
Total:

381.32 g  |  13.45 oz | 0.84 lbs
240.23 g  |  8.47 oz | 0.53 lbs
7.63 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.59 tsp | 0.53 tbsp
1.07 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
7.63 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.69 tsp | 0.56 tbsp
637.88 g | 22.5 oz | 1.41 lbs | TF = N/A
 
 
17.16 g | 0.61 oz | 0.04 lbs
17.16 g | 0.61 oz | 0.04 lbs
34.32 g | 1.21 oz | 0.08 lbs

 
364.16 g | 12.85 oz | 0.8 lbs
223.07 g | 7.87 oz | 0.49 lbs
7.63 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.59 tsp | 0.53 tbsp
1.07 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
34.32 g | 1.21 oz | 0.08 lbs
7.63 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.69 tsp | 0.56 tbsp
637.88 g | 22.5 oz | 1.41 lbs  | TF = N/A

Details
1. The dough (22.5 ounces) is for a single 18" pizza, with a nominal thickness factor of 22.5/(3.14159 x 9 x 9) = 0.08842.
2. The Preferment is a natural poolish preferment based on using the Ischia starter.
3. The Preferment has a hydration of 100% (50% flour and 50% water, by weight). (The Preferment percentage of water is 50%.)
4. The Preferment has a weight (34.32 grams) equal to 9% of the total formula flour (391.32 grams). (9% of 391.32 = 34.32 grams.)
5. There is no bowl residue compensation (so the actual final dough weight will most likely be less than 22.5 ounces).
6. The flour is the Full Strength flour from General Mills.
7. The salt is Morton's Kosher salt.
8. The oil can be vegetable (soybean) oil or olive oil.
9. The value of the IDY is intended to permit a single day of cold fermentation.
10. The desired finished dough temperature is around 80 degrees F.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 26, 2014, 11:42:27 AM
   

Norma,

Since you and Steve did not repeal any laws of science, were I to hazard a guess, I would say that the problem was due to insufficient fermentation. And if I were to look for a culprit, it would be the stable, relatively low temperature of your pizza dough fridge that was uninterrupted over the long weekend by multiple openings and closings. This is something I have experienced even here in Texas when I have made and cold fermented dough balls and left town for several days, only to discover upon my return that the dough had not risen nearly as much as I had expected or would have imagined. I also learned from my Papa John's reverse engineering work that a dough ball that is targeted for a long cold fermentation is not really usable after only two or three days of cold fermentation. It needs longer than that. Also, a low blistering activity is often a sign of underfermentation. I saw this underfermentation phenomenon with all of the experimental De Lorenzo dough balls that I made where I intentionally tried to make dough balls that exhibited almost no bubbling during formation into skins.

If I am correct in the above assessment, the options available to you to address this issue would be one or more of the following: 1) increase the amount of IDY, 2) use a higher finished dough temperature, 3) rest the dough, in bulk or as dough balls, for a period of time at room temperature before refrigerating, and 4) use a longer temper time at room temperature. These situations call for some trial and error to get the desired outcome. Not all darts thrown at a dartboard hit the bulls-eye. Some will, but some will hit the wall next to the bulls-eye or fall to the floor. The answer is to be patient, learn from the results you get, even if they puzzle or frustrate you, and keep trying.

Peter

Peter,

I know I did not repeal any laws of science.  Thanks for your thoughts on the problem might be due to insufficient fermentation and telling me about your experiences.  I can understand low blistering activity often is a sign of underfermentation.  Thanks also for reminding me what you experienced in the De Lorenzo dough balls that you made where you intentionally tried to make dough that exhibited almost no bubbling during the formulation into skins. 

The first photo at Reply 140 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg308946#msg308946 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg308946#msg308946) were of the two dough balls that were not warmed up.  I think it can be seen there are fermentation bubbles in those two dough balls.  When they were warmed up enough while opening them into skins they did have many fermentation bubbles in the skin.  I would have thought they were fairly long fermented dough balls just by the feel of them and also the amount of fermentation bubbles in the opened skins. 

Maybe it might be an idea to use the poppy seed trick and put two dough balls into plastic containers to do a 4 day cold ferment again.  That way I might really see how much the dough would cold ferment in a four day time span.

I know all the darts thrown at the dart board won't hit the bulls-eye and some might hit the floor.  I also know sometimes I get frustrated with my results.

I really don't know if the amount of IDY wasn't enough for a 4 day cold ferment, but I thought the amount of IDY was enough.  I will have to think over your other options.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 26, 2014, 11:44:21 AM
Norma,

Here you are:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
Salt (2%):
IDY (0.28%):
Oil (2%):
Total (167.28%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
IDY:
Preferment:
Oil:
Total:

381.32 g  |  13.45 oz | 0.84 lbs
240.23 g  |  8.47 oz | 0.53 lbs
7.63 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.59 tsp | 0.53 tbsp
1.07 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
7.63 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.69 tsp | 0.56 tbsp
637.88 g | 22.5 oz | 1.41 lbs | TF = N/A
 
 
17.16 g | 0.61 oz | 0.04 lbs
17.16 g | 0.61 oz | 0.04 lbs
34.32 g | 1.21 oz | 0.08 lbs

 
364.16 g | 12.85 oz | 0.8 lbs
223.07 g | 7.87 oz | 0.49 lbs
7.63 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.59 tsp | 0.53 tbsp
1.07 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
34.32 g | 1.21 oz | 0.08 lbs
7.63 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.69 tsp | 0.56 tbsp
637.88 g | 22.5 oz | 1.41 lbs  | TF = N/A

Details
1. The dough (22.5 ounces) is for a single 18" pizza, with a nominal thickness factor of 22.5/(3.14159 x 9 x 9) = 0.08842.
2. The Preferment is a natural poolish preferment based on using the Ischia starter.
3. The Preferment has a hydration of 100% (50% flour and 50% water, by weight). (The Preferment percentage of water is 50%.)
4. The Preferment has a weight (34.32 grams) equal to 9% of the total formula flour (391.32 grams). (9% of 391.32 = 34.32 grams.)
5. There is no bowl residue compensation (so the actual final dough weight will most likely be less than 22.5 ounces).
6. The flour is the Full Strength flour from General Mills.
7. The salt is Morton's Kosher salt.
8. The oil can be vegetable (soybean) oil or olive oil.
9. The value of the IDY is intended to permit a single day of cold fermentation.
10. The desired finished dough temperature is around 80 degrees F.

Peter

Thanks Peter!  I will give it a whirl with your new formulation next Monday.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on March 26, 2014, 12:56:13 PM
Norma/Peter:  My dough is around the low 60's when I put it in the fridge balled for cold ferments.  We make dough Friday afternoon that is not touched till monday morning. The door never opens.  I mix around 6-7 minutes and the balls are not risen much at all when pulled out.  They flatten out some as well.   With a 2-3 hour room rise they open up very easy/ hit the oven and burst open just fine at 560 degrees.  I find the cold water with at slightly higher yeast amount than if I was going for the 80'ish finished temp really does something to the process.  I also think the lack of sugar and oil play into the equation.   This time of year I can use straight tap water but as it warms up I use ice water.  I know it goes against the accepted methods of pizza dough but I swear the difference from a 1-2 day cold ferment is quite obvious.    Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on March 26, 2014, 01:53:49 PM
Norma and Walter,

When I was making all of the DeLorenzo clone test dough balls (I made over 26 of them), I often experienced the same phenomenon of the dough balls showing little bubbling activity while in their storage containers but coming alive once tempered at room temperature in preparation for forming skins out of them. Just about all of the test dough balls were made in the months of September and October of last year. September in Texas is still one of the hottest months, and I discovered that the finished dough temperatures as a result were higher than for the dough balls made in October when it was starting to cool off. The range of finished dough temperatures for the September and October test dough balls was between about 70 degrees F and 85.5 degrees F. And if I used a lot of yeast in the dough balls made in September, it was common for the dough balls to double or triple in volume while in the refrigerator in the course of about a day. By contrast, the test dough balls made in October rose much less, and especially if the amount of yeast was on the low side. The range of expansion of the test dough balls in those cases was around 20-67%. When I reviewed my notes for all of the test dough balls, I could see the effect of ambient temperature on finished dough temperatures and also the effect of different quantities of yeast on dough ball expansion and degree of fermentation. Those dough balls with the lowest finished dough temperatures and the least amount of yeast experienced the least dough expansion. That is what I was looking for because the real DeLorenzo skins did not exhibit signs of fermentation activity.

Had I repeated the above experiments in Pennsylvania or Ohio instead of Texas, I am sure my results would be closer to the dough balls I made in the month of October. To more closely correlate my results with those in Pennsylvania and Ohio, I would have to adjust downwardly the finished dough temperatures and amounts of yeast. Remember also that all of my test dough balls were kept in my refrigerator, which tracked outdoor temperatures. The door of the refrigerator was also opened and closed many times during the course of any given day. 

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on March 26, 2014, 02:26:20 PM
Peter:  I know all about TX heat.  I lived in Austin for 12 years and Houston for 6 months.  I worked at Upper Crust Bakery in Austin for much of that time doing breads/cakes.  When we iced wedding cakes we had to sit the icing in a bucket filled with ice and could only work about 15 minutes before putting it back in the walk in to harden back up.   The walk in was always an issue with temp control.  the bakery was well over 100 degrees much of the year.  I have made 1-2 day ice water cold fermented breads for years and that gave me the idea to use ice water in my pizza doughes.  The sugar reacts differently creating IMO more complex flavors that with warm dough that is put in the fridge.  Walter

http://uppercrustbakery.com/index (http://uppercrustbakery.com/index)
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 26, 2014, 03:42:31 PM
Norma/Peter:  My dough is around the low 60's when I put it in the fridge balled for cold ferments.  We make dough Friday afternoon that is not touched till monday morning. The door never opens.  I mix around 6-7 minutes and the balls are not risen much at all when pulled out.  They flatten out some as well.   With a 2-3 hour room rise they open up very easy/ hit the oven and burst open just fine at 560 degrees.  I find the cold water with at slightly higher yeast amount than if I was going for the 80'ish finished temp really does something to the process.  I also think the lack of sugar and oil play into the equation.   This time of year I can use straight tap water but as it warms up I use ice water.  I know it goes against the accepted methods of pizza dough but I swear the difference from a 1-2 day cold ferment is quite obvious.    Walter

Water,

I find your colder than normal final dough temperatures along with a little higher amount of yeast interesting in a longer cold fermented dough.  I wonder how sugar and oil would fit into that equation.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 26, 2014, 03:50:23 PM
Norma and Walter,

When I was making all of the DeLorenzo clone test dough balls (I made over 26 of them), I often experienced the same phenomenon of the dough balls showing little bubbling activity while in their storage containers but coming alive once tempered at room temperature in preparation for forming skins out of them. Just about all of the test dough balls were made in the months of September and October of last year. September in Texas is still one of the hottest months, and I discovered that the finished dough temperatures as a result were higher than for the dough balls made in October when it was starting to cool off. The range of finished dough temperatures for the September and October test dough balls was between about 70 degrees F and 85.5 degrees F. And if I used a lot of yeast in the dough balls made in September, it was common for the dough balls to double or triple in volume while in the refrigerator in the course of about a day. By contrast, the test dough balls made in October rose much less, and especially if the amount of yeast was on the low side. The range of expansion of the test dough balls in those cases was around 20-67%. When I reviewed my notes for all of the test dough balls, I could see the effect of ambient temperature on finished dough temperatures and also the effect of different quantities of yeast on dough ball expansion and degree of fermentation. Those dough balls with the lowest finished dough temperatures and the least amount of yeast experienced the least dough expansion. That is what I was looking for because the real DeLorenzo skins did not exhibit signs of fermentation activity.

Had I repeated the above experiments in Pennsylvania or Ohio instead of Texas, I am sure my results would be closer to the dough balls I made in the month of October. To more closely correlate my results with those in Pennsylvania and Ohio, I would have to adjust downwardly the finished dough temperatures and amounts of yeast. Remember also that all of my test dough balls were kept in my refrigerator, which tracked outdoor temperatures. The door of the refrigerator was also opened and closed many times during the course of any given day. 

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling us your experiences with the De Lorenzo's doughs you made.  It is good you could see the effect of ambient temperatures on finished dough temperatures and also the effects of different quantities of yeast on dough ball expansion and the degree of fermentation from your notes.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on March 26, 2014, 04:14:42 PM
Water,

I find your colder than normal final dough temperatures along with a little higher amount of yeast interesting in a longer cold fermented dough.  I wonder how sugar and oil would fit into that equation.

Norma


Norma:  If  you like I can send you our dough formula.  I don't have it at home but will be back at school on Friday.  You can try some with oil/sugar and without and see if that makes a difference from the 1 day dough. If it doesn't you got alien powers down at that there market  or you have some sort of formula that I need to have :-D   Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 26, 2014, 05:03:44 PM


Norma:  If  you like I can send you our dough formula.  I don't have it at home but will be back at school on Friday.  You can try some with oil/sugar and without and see if that makes a difference from the 1 day dough. If it doesn't you got alien powers down at that there market  or you have some sort of formula that I need to have :-D   Walter

Walter,

You can send me your formulation for your dough if you want to.  I will try your dough and my dough in a cold 4 day cold ferment.  I am curious if I am doing something wrong or if it is the market situation.  Lol about alien powers.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 28, 2014, 06:17:23 PM
Another small batch of dough was made today using the same formulation that was posted at Reply 128  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg308378#msg308378 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg308378#msg308378) to see if there are any different results Tuesday.  The final dough temperature was 75.2 degrees F and the dough balls were left at the ambient room temperature of 52 degrees F for a half hour before they were placed in the pizza prep fridge.  I would have left the dough balls sit out longer but I was almost finished at market.  Poppy seeds were placed on two dough balls.

I did not do a test with Walter's dough for a 4-day cold ferment because I did not receive his formulation. I know Walter was very busy this week.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on March 28, 2014, 06:38:19 PM
Norma: I look forward to your results.  I see the finished dough temp was about  the same as the last batch and that bench rise probably will not be that big an influence but it is another changed variable.   If it does come out close to the last experiment try my recipe - drop the oil and sugar and start with ice water.  If that comes out not as good as your 1 day dough I am going to fly you out here to make your 1 day dough and put it side by side with my 4 day :-D.  Actually this week I have been off for spring break and avoiding work as much as possible.  I did get  a prep table delivered this week.  It is used and I am a clean freak so I spent a few hours cleaning it and our convection ovens(with oven cleaner and a real messy job and no fun to do with school in session).  When I got done I forgot to get the recipe for you.  I am still a bit stiff from being on my knees, upside down, and having to rearrange the room to accomodate the prep table.  I will get it to you Monday. Sorry.   Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 28, 2014, 07:39:43 PM
Norma: I look forward to your results.  I see the finished dough temp was about  the same as the last batch and that bench rise probably will not be that big an influence but it is another changed variable.   If it does come out close to the last experiment try my recipe - drop the oil and sugar and start with ice water.  If that comes out not as good as your 1 day dough I am going to fly you out here to make your 1 day dough and put it side by side with my 4 day :-D.  Actually this week I have been off for spring break and avoiding work as much as possible.  I did get  a prep table delivered this week.  It is used and I am a clean freak so I spent a few hours cleaning it and our convection ovens(with oven cleaner and a real messy job and no fun to do with school in session).  When I got done I forgot to get the recipe for you.  I am still a bit stiff from being on my knees, upside down, and having to rearrange the room to accomodate the prep table.  I will get it to you Monday. Sorry.   Walter

Walter,

No need to apologize.  I knew you were busy this week.  There are always more weeks for experiments.  I didn't know I could have just dropped the oil and sugar or I would have done that.  I thought you used a higher amount of IDY but will wait until next week to find out. 

As for you trying to avoid work it doesn't sound like you actually did that. :-D  Good to hear about your prep table.  The convection ovens sound like a mess to clean. 

I hope at least to get a little blistering this time.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 31, 2014, 06:56:26 PM
I mixed Terry's dough with the oil modification Peter changed at Reply 147 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg309013#msg309013 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg309013#msg309013)  this morning.  Poppy seeds were placed on top of the dough ball so I could watch how the dough ball ferments until tomorrow.  The Ischia starter was nice and bubbly this morning.  The first photo is of the Ischia starter, the second photo is after Terry's dough was balled and the third photo is after Terry's dough ball was at market.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on March 31, 2014, 07:05:09 PM
I am not sure, but think I know why my 4-day cold fermented dough pizzas didn't taste different last week.  The poppy seeds did not move apart to 1 ¼” until today (3-day cold fermented until today) when I went to market.  I guess the pizza prep fridge is too cold for the dough to ferment more in a 3-day cold ferment time frame with the door shut for that long.  The one dough ball in the plastic bag does look like it is fermenting faster, but I am almost sure that isn't the case now.  There were speckles on the 4-day cold fermenting dough balls in the two plastic containers, but not on the dough balls that were in the plastic bags.  I now wonder if those speckles are coming from oxygen getting into those plastic containers.  I can't recall if anyone ever had those speckles on dough balls that were placed in plastic bags before. 

The one 4-day cold fermented dough ball in the plastic container was moved to the top compartment of the pizza prep fridge.  The other 4-day cold fermented dough ball in the plastic container was moved to the bottom of the deli case.  I want to see if they ferment any differently until tomorrow from being in different fridges.  There was not any room in the bottom of the pizza prep fridge to leave the 4-day cold fermented dough balls in the plastic containers in there until tomorrow.  I have to stack some dough balls on top of one another. 

The regular 1-day cold fermented dough balls were left out for over an hour today to see if that makes any difference in them.  The ambient temperature at market today was 54 degrees F.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 02, 2014, 08:26:50 AM
If anyone is interested a female vendor across the aisle from me at filmed this video of my pizza stand yesterday.  The video was for a contest on facebook sponsored by PMQ Pizza Magazine and Innov8 Marketing.  Dave at market was going to help me with the video but there wasn't enough time on Monday for Dave to prepare anything.  I am not going to provide the direct link to the contest, but this is the link on Youtube.  At the end of the video some of my pizzas can be seen.

http://youtu.be/hVTudTJrtrg (http://youtu.be/hVTudTJrtrg)

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 02, 2014, 12:06:35 PM
I really don't have any explanations why the 4-day cold fermented doughs balls when made into pizzas did not taste any better in the crust, but that was Steve and my opinions yesterday. 

I did not take a lot of photos yesterday, but the 1-day cold fermented doughs did brown better in on the rim crust. The one photo of a whole pizza is from a 1-day cold fermented dough ball that I had left out for a little over an hour after balling.  The 4-day cold fermented dough balls did expand to a little over doubling throughout the day when left to temper at room temperature.  There was no blistering on the rim crust from using the 4-day cold ferment.
 
The one photo of a slice of pizza was from the 1-day cold ferment.  It was not the best photo to represent what the slices looked like, but I just snapped that photo fast.  It can be seen the inside of the rim crust is moist in the photo after the slice.
I am not going to post the 2 photos I took of a pizza that was from the 4-day cold ferment because the rim crust didn't brown enough.  The same thing happened with all of the 4-day cold ferment dough pizzas.

I wish someone could explain what is going on that my 4-day cold fermented dough experiments do not have a better flavor in the crust and don't even brown as well in the rim crust as the 1-day cold fermented doughs.
 
It can been seen in the one photo what some of the 1-day cold fermented dough balls looked like after some other doughs balls were taken out.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 02, 2014, 03:14:01 PM
Norma:  It was great to see/hear you and see your space.  It looks great with all that stuff on the walls and around.  Classic IMO!   I give up on your 4 day dough.  Mine will always brown better with a 4 vs a 1-2 day.   The flavor is blatantly obvious too between the 2.  It must be aliens!   Here are some shot from today of our 4 day that went to day 5 today.  It was still in great shape and could have went to day 6 but we used it all up.  Paige and myself can tell right off by looking at the dough and in a blind taste test which dough is 1-2 and which is 4-5.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 02, 2014, 05:19:23 PM
Norma,

Can you refresh my memory on the dough formulation you used, and also the flour that you used? And can you tell me the bake temperature and time?

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 02, 2014, 07:38:43 PM
Norma:  It was great to see/hear you and see your space.  It looks great with all that stuff on the walls and around.  Classic IMO!   I give up on your 4 day dough.  Mine will always brown better with a 4 vs a 1-2 day.   The flavor is blatantly obvious too between the 2.  It must be aliens!   Here are some shot from today of our 4 day that went to day 5 today.  It was still in great shape and could have went to day 6 but we used it all up.  Paige and myself can tell right off by looking at the dough and in a blind taste test which dough is 1-2 and which is 4-5.  Walter

Walter,

I am glad you enjoyed seeing and hearing me in my little small pizza stand.  That video was to try to win an app to help with customers.  I don't have a regular land line phone at market.  I would post the link but don't want anyone to think I want them to vote for me to win that app.  There should have been more time thinking what should have been done on that video. 

When it stays a little warmer in my area I am going to clean a lot of stuff out of there that I don't use all the time.  The one maintenance man told me that hopefully soon they can put in a new floor for me.  I told Steve that I soon have to change things around in my front area of my stand.  Right now since I am busier that whole set-up in the front and where the cash register is in the back of my stand fouls up me on getting pies out faster.  I told Steve I need to rearrange that whole thing around so will be able to make pies faster.  I said there needs to be one dedicated pizza maker (me most of the time) that opens the dough balls, sauces and applies the cheese, then slides the pies in and out of the oven.  The other person could then take care of all the other things that need done.  Right now I spend way too much time waiting on customers, giving change, reheating slices and doing other stuff.  I have a hard time keeping pizzas in the heated cabinet.  It is like running around like a chicken with its head cut off.  :-D I am also selling a lot more whole pizzas now.  I am also going to ask the maintenance men if they will help me switch my stones from the top to the bottom of my decks.  My bottom deck in the front is so badly stained from reheating so many slices.  I can't remove those stones by myself.

Your pizzas look great on day 5 of the cold ferment.  ;D  :chef: Steve and I can not figure out what is going on with me trying the longer cold ferments.  I don't know if my oven, my dough making abilities, or something else is off.  I do know that usually longer cold fermented doughs do taste better in the crust.   

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 02, 2014, 07:55:49 PM
Boy Norma between your set up/routine and mine we could make a movie that would rival the Marx Bros :-D.  It is a challenge to work in a small space and maximize it.  Our space is about 600 sqft but with up to 15 kids in there and all the equipment, tables, it gets to be an exercise in space management.  Thanks on my pies.  I wish I could send one out for you to compare taste wise.   I figure you want to switch your stones because of the run off from reheating slices direct on the stone?  We sell probably 10 pies a day or more by the slice.   I am a bit of a nut about my ovens and hate getting the stones all funked up.  I have a pile of 16" pizza pans that we use for reheats and that keeps the stones clean.  I hope your remodeling goes as smooth as possible.   Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 02, 2014, 08:24:48 PM
Norma,

Can you refresh my memory on the dough formulation you used, and also the flour that you used? And can you tell me the bake temperature and time?

Peter

Peter,

The formulation I used for the 4-day cold ferment was posted at Reply 128 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg308378#msg308378 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg308378#msg308378)  I think that was for 6 dough balls if I recall right.  I only used a formulation for 5 dough balls last Friday but did not post that print out sheet here on the forum.  I used GM Full Strength flour as I also did before.  GM Full Strength bleached and bromated flour is all I have been using since I changed from the All Trumps flour.

I really don't know what the temperatures read across my bottom stone.  I think they range between about 525-549 degrees F.  The boardwalk style pizzas usually take about 4 ½ minutes to 5 minutes to bake.  For some reason this past Tuesday the pies were baking faster.  Steve and I couldn't figure why that was because there were more pizzas being baked than normal.  I have not changed the temperature control on my oven for a long time.

If you want me to take my IR gun over to market this coming Tuesday to see really what the ranges of temperatures are I can take the IR gun along.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 02, 2014, 08:37:05 PM
Boy Norma between your set up/routine and mine we could make a movie that would rival the Marx Bros :-D.  It is a challenge to work in a small space and maximize it.  Our space is about 600 sqft but with up to 15 kids in there and all the equipment, tables, it gets to be an exercise in space management.  Thanks on my pies.  I wish I could send one out for you to compare taste wise.   I figure you want to switch your stones because of the run off from reheating slices direct on the stone?  We sell probably 10 pies a day or more by the slice.   I am a bit of a nut about my ovens and hate getting the stones all funked up.  I have a pile of 16" pizza pans that we use for reheats and that keeps the stones clean.  I hope your remodeling goes as smooth as possible.   Walter

Walter,

I agree that between your set-up/routines and mine we probably could make a movie that would rival the Marx Bros.  :-D I wish I could taste one of your pies.  I do want to switch my stones because of the cheese running off in the reheat/crisp.  Steve and I do routinely clean off the stones, but with so many slices getting reheated it is hard to keep the cheese from melting onto the bottom deck.  That is a good idea about what you do to keep your stones from getting junked up.  Most of my customers like a slice with a crisp bottom crust.  I don't think I would get a crisp bottom crust if the slices weren't placed on the stone.  The reheat doesn't take long at all but it is an extra step that must be taken.

Thanks for your words about the remodeling.  If it doesn't happen fairly soon I might not make it through a long hot day at market.  :-\

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 02, 2014, 09:54:00 PM
The attempt on a Terry's sourdough pizza using Peter's modification of using oil went well in some ways.  The first photo is how much the dough ball fermented until 8:07 AM Tuesday.  The dough ball was taken out of the pizza prep fridge and I had planned on making the pizza after the dough ball doubled in size but that was not meant to happen since I was too busy then.  The dough ball sat out at room at the room temperature of about 75 degrees F for about 5 hrs.  It can be seen how much it fermented until then. 

The dough ball was very easy to open and opened almost too easily.  The pizza baked okay.  Steve and I thought the taste of the rim crust was very good.  It sure was a lot different than my normal crusts are.  The rim crust did have a distinct sourdough taste and am not sure why that really happened since IDY was also used in addition to the Ishcia starter.  The rim crust was a little crisp and the bottom crust was crisp (but not as crispy as last week).  The inside of the rim crust was moist.  The thing that wonders me why that the slices we ate tasted like they were made with a higher protein flour than GM Full Strength.

Norma

Edit:  Sorry I thought I took a photo of what the dough ball looked like in the morning but did not.  It had not fermented much at all though.
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 02, 2014, 09:58:20 PM
Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: agrawaam on April 03, 2014, 06:35:10 AM
Hiya Norma,

I'm new to the site in terms of posting but have been around for a while learning a great deal from all of you - Thanks to All for making this great forum!!

Somewhere I remember reading to spray/brush the edge of the pizza after loading with toppings just before it goes into the oven - I've been using that method for a great cornicione that puffs up really well, browns really well too..

The last pizza I made probably got a bit overdone (tasted good nevertheless)... and I used this same technique with the 5 day dough... pic in the link...

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11994.msg310190#msg310190 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11994.msg310190#msg310190)


Cheers!
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 03, 2014, 09:19:21 AM
Hiya Norma,

Somewhere I remember reading to spray/brush the edge of the pizza after loading with toppings just before it goes into the oven - I've been using that method for a great cornicione that puffs up really well, browns really well too..

The last pizza I made probably got a bit overdone (tasted good nevertheless)... and I used this same technique with the 5 day dough... pic in the link...

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11994.msg310190#msg310190 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11994.msg310190#msg310190)


Cheers!

agrawaam,

Your Brian Spangler pizza looks like it turned out well.  I am glad to hear you enjoyed it.

I have also heard and read about spraying/brushing the edge rim before baking.  I have tried that on Mellow Mushroom pizzas I have made.

For me to take the extra step in doing the spraying or brushing at market would take extra time when making pizzas.  I appreciate you telling me about that method.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 03, 2014, 11:10:27 AM
Peter,

The formulation I used for the 4-day cold ferment was posted at Reply 128 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg308378#msg308378 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg308378#msg308378)  I think that was for 6 dough balls if I recall right.  I only used a formulation for 5 dough balls last Friday but did not post that print out sheet here on the forum.  I used GM Full Strength flour as I also did before.  GM Full Strength bleached and bromated flour is all I have been using since I changed from the All Trumps flour.

I really don't know what the temperatures read across my bottom stone.  I think they range between about 525-549 degrees F.  The boardwalk style pizzas usually take about 4 ½ minutes to 5 minutes to bake.  For some reason this past Tuesday the pies were baking faster.  Steve and I couldn't figure why that was because there were more pizzas being baked than normal.  I have not changed the temperature control on my oven for a long time.

If you want me to take my IR gun over to market this coming Tuesday to see really what the ranges of temperatures are I can take the IR gun along.

Norma
Norma,

I think that there are other factors at play as to why you did not get more crust flavor and color. In other words, I don't think it is the dough formulation or the fermentation protocol that is at fault. There are some possible changes that you might make to the dough formulation (more on this below) but it might be that the problem has to do with the bake temperature and time that you are using. In this vein, I take note of the fact that Walter bakes his NY style pizzas at around 560-570 degrees F, and while he says he does not time the pizzas, he estimates that it takes about 6 minutes to bake his pizzas in his Blodgett 1000 deck ovens. And this is with a long cold fermented dough using Full Strength flour, a hydration of about 63% (give or take a few percent), a low finished dough temperature, a small amount of IDY, and no sugar or oil. Yet he gets noticeably improved crust flavor and color.

I mention the oven in your case because both crust flavor and color are both enhanced not only by the many byproducts of fermentation but also by using a proper bake temperature and time. These enhancements come from the denaturing of protein, the Maillard reactions and caramelization of sugars (added and natural). But these enhancements take time to develop in the oven. A common solution to deficiencies in crust flavor and color is to use a lower bake temperature and a longer bake time. But if this is not a viable solution, for whatever the reason, then you are left with having to try to modify the bake process, as by using pizza screens at some point during the bake to control crust color development, or to modify the dough formulation itself to compensate.

One modification to the dough formulation, without the need to use pizza screens, would be to lower the hydration value. The Full Strength flour has a protein value of 12.6%, so a hydration value of around 62% might be a value to consider since that is likely to be the rated absorption value for that flour anyway. Also, with a lower hydration value, more of the energy of the oven is devoted to browning the crust rather than trying to drive moisture out of the dough.  Another modification of the dough formulation might be to add more sugar. You might try using 2% sugar but you may have to resort to using pizza screens if you find that the bottom crust is browning too quickly.

Maybe the next step is to measure your oven temperature and bake times when you are next at market, as you suggested, to see if those numbers tell us anything of value. You might also run a test dough batch with a hydration of around 62% and sugar at 2% to see if that helps avoid messing around with the oven temperature and bake times. Those changes in the dough formulation might not be enough but maybe the results will suggest the direction in which you should proceed.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 03, 2014, 11:56:17 AM
The attempt on a Terry's sourdough pizza using Peter's modification of using oil went well in some ways.  The first photo is how much the dough ball fermented until 8:07 AM Tuesday.  The dough ball was taken out of the pizza prep fridge and I had planned on making the pizza after the dough ball doubled in size but that was not meant to happen since I was too busy then.  The dough ball sat out at room at the room temperature of about 75 degrees F for about 5 hrs.  It can be seen how much it fermented until then. 

The dough ball was very easy to open and opened almost too easily.  The pizza baked okay.  Steve and I thought the taste of the rim crust was very good.  It sure was a lot different than my normal crusts are.  The rim crust did have a distinct sourdough taste and am not sure why that really happened since IDY was also used in addition to the Ishcia starter.  The rim crust was a little crisp and the bottom crust was crisp (but not as crispy as last week).  The inside of the rim crust was moist.  The thing that wonders me why that the slices we ate tasted like they were made with a higher protein flour than GM Full Strength.
Norma,

To my eye, the attempt at Terry's NY style pizza looks quite good. However, from the tenor of your post ("went well in some ways", "The pizza baked okay", "a lot different than my normal crusts are"), there was clearly something that was lacking from your perspective. Can you put your finger on what it was that did not meet with your approval?

I am surprised by the noticeable sourdough flavor, especially given the large amount of IDY that you used. Was the flavor dominated by the acetic acid component or the milder lactic acid component that most of our members favor when using the Ischia and other starters for their pizza doughs?

As for your comment about how the slices you ate " tasted like they were made with a higher protein flour than GM Full Strength", I believe that the explanation has to do with the way that the acids produced during fermentation, and especially with the use of the Ischia starter, strengthen the dough by their action on the protein and gluten. Didier Rosada discusses this phenomenon under "Advantages" in his article at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm).

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 03, 2014, 03:09:21 PM
Norma,

I think that there are other factors at play as to why you did not get more crust flavor and color. In other words, I don't think it is the dough formulation or the fermentation protocol that is at fault. There are some possible changes that you might make to the dough formulation (more on this below) but it might be that the problem has to do with the bake temperature and time that you are using. In this vein, I take note of the fact that Walter bakes his NY style pizzas at around 560-570 degrees F, and while he says he does not time the pizzas, he estimates that it takes about 6 minutes to bake his pizzas in his Blodgett 1000 deck ovens. And this is with a long cold fermented dough using Full Strength flour, a hydration of about 63% (give or take a few percent), a low finished dough temperature, a small amount of IDY, and no sugar or oil. Yet he gets noticeably improved crust flavor and color.

I mention the oven in your case because both crust flavor and color are both enhanced not only by the many byproducts of fermentation but also by using a proper bake temperature and time. These enhancements come from the denaturing of protein, the Maillard reactions and caramelization of sugars (added and natural). But these enhancements take time to develop in the oven. A common solution to deficiencies in crust flavor and color is to use a lower bake temperature and a longer bake time. But if this is not a viable solution, for whatever the reason, then you are left with having to try to modify the bake process, as by using pizza screens at some point during the bake to control crust color development, or to modify the dough formulation itself to compensate.

One modification to the dough formulation, without the need to use pizza screens, would be to lower the hydration value. The Full Strength flour has a protein value of 12.6%, so a hydration value of around 62% might be a value to consider since that is likely to be the rated absorption value for that flour anyway. Also, with a lower hydration value, more of the energy of the oven is devoted to browning the crust rather than trying to drive moisture out of the dough.  Another modification of the dough formulation might be to add more sugar. You might try using 2% sugar but you may have to resort to using pizza screens if you find that the bottom crust is browning too quickly.

Maybe the next step is to measure your oven temperature and bake times when you are next at market, as you suggested, to see if those numbers tell us anything of value. You might also run a test dough batch with a hydration of around 62% and sugar at 2% to see if that helps avoid messing around with the oven temperature and bake times. Those changes in the dough formulation might not be enough but maybe the results will suggest the direction in which you should proceed.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for the note about the differences in Walter's and my bake temperatures and times.  I know my deck oven does not bake like Walter's Blogett 1000 deck oven.  I have fiddled around with bake temperatures for a long while in my oven and found if I try to bake a little higher in temperature then my bottom crust wants to get too dark.  My customers do not really like a darker bottom crust.  I would like to be able to have bottom crust browning like Walter does but know that almost will be almost impossible.  I guess I never thought about using a proper bake temperature and time and how that would help achieve what I want.  I did try lower bake temperatures for fairly a long while, but didn't see many differences in how the top crust browns, or how the bottom crust browns.  My deck is nothing like Walter's and I have to keep rotating my pizzas, where Walter doesn't have to do that.  I really don't want to have to use pizza screens because that would be one more step to take each time a pizza is made. 

I think I am somewhat like Walter in that I do usually add more water than what calls for in the formulation.  Maybe my adding water to make the dough feel like I want it too is hurting what I want in  the end. 

Walter sent me his formulation and I will try it out for this coming week along with your suggestion of using 62% hydration and 2% sugar to see what happens.  I think I will make the dough balls at home though and take them to market tomorrow.  I really don't want 10 test doughs balls at one time.

I will take my IR gun to market to confirm what temperatures there really are on the deck.  I also will try to time the pizzas.

Norma   
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 03, 2014, 03:26:09 PM
Peter/Norma:  That insight into oven temp and oven efficency hit me.  I have been in many pizzerias that bake at 500 and their ovens were all on the low end of btu's.  They ended up with decent pies too IMO (all NY style).  A few weeks ago we had a large order and I forgot to set the bottom oven to 560.  It was  at 450 which is what we bake our breads at.  Well I kept looking in the oven and thinking something was wrong with it.  Then I put on my reading glasses and saw the temp was set to 450 and not 550.  I immediately cranked it to 560 but it takes awhile to come up to that temp.  So we had 4- 18" pies in the lower oven (capacity) and I surrendered to it probably being a mess.  Well the pies came out great.  There is something to be said for low bake times as well :)  Once I had a Star Tavern employee tell me they ran their ovens at 450.  I dismissed that but often have thought about that.  Their decks are so funky it will add black spots just from the gunk.  Anyway, there are lots of ways to get a great tasting pie IMO.  My ice water and low- upper 60's finished dough temps are against the norm but my pies taste good to me.   Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 03, 2014, 03:29:09 PM
Norma,

To my eye, the attempt at Terry's NY style pizza looks quite good. However, from the tenor of your post ("went well in some ways", "The pizza baked okay", "a lot different than my normal crusts are"), there was clearly something that was lacking from your perspective. Can you put your finger on what it was that did not meet with your approval?

I am surprised by the noticeable sourdough flavor, especially given the large amount of IDY that you used. Was the flavor dominated by the acetic acid component or the milder lactic acid component that most of our members favor when using the Ischia and other starters for their pizza doughs?

As for your comment about how the slices you ate " tasted like they were made with a higher protein flour than GM Full Strength", I believe that the explanation has to do with the way that the acids produced during fermentation, and especially with the use of the Ischia starter, strengthen the dough by their action on the protein and gluten. Didier Rosada discusses this phenomenon under "Advantages" in his article at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm).

Peter

Peter,

What I meant when I was posting that (went well in some ways, the pizza baked okay, and a lot different than my normal crust) was first of all I left the dough ball sit out too long, the rim crust did not brown evenly in the bake and I did like the sourdough flavor.  I think I also meant that I don't think Terry's dough with your oil modification would work for a market dough because of not being sure of when the dough balls would be ready to be used.  As I posted in the morning the dough ball was nowhere ready to be used to make a pizza.  I think almost any sourdough pizza would give me problems at market even with IDY added. 

What I meant by saying the slices tasted like they were made with a higher protein flour was there was more chew in the slices.  That is something I don't even notice when using higher protein flours.  The slices were not tough in anyway, but there was more chew.  I did not mix a long time either.

I have no idea why the IDY did not overpower the Ischia starter.  Maybe somehow when the dough ball was sitting out at room temperature so long somehow the Ischia starter still dominated.  The flavor of the sourdough in Terry's pizza was the milder lactic acid component, but Steve and I could really taste that the Ischia starter was used.  I keep watching how that dough rose in the plastic container.  At first it rose slowly but over the last 2 hrs. really took off.  I was surprised though that no top bubbles formed on that dough ball. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 06, 2014, 08:45:45 AM
I did mixed two doughs Friday at home.  The one was using Walter's formulation and the other was using Peter's suggestion of lowering the hydration value to 62% and adding 2% sugar.  I was going to take the two dough balls to market but I had some errands to run for my mother and also had to stop at the webrestaurant store for some things before going to market from home.  I thought by the time I got to market maybe that might skew my results in how much the dough balls cold ferment until Tuesday.  I know my home fridge stays fairly cold in temperature so I left both of the dough balls there until Monday.  Both of the doughs used .25% IDY in the formulation and both dough balls had almost exactly the same final dough temperatures.  The poppy seed trick was used again, and until today the spacing of the poppy seeds on both dough balls has changed.  Both dough balls look like they are cold fermenting the same. 

I also was curious how a preferment Lehmann dough crust tastes in comparison to the one day cold fermented doughs since I haven't tasted a preferment Lehmann dough pizza for awhile.  I did mixed the poolish part and will incorporate the preferment into the final dough on Monday.

The first photo is of Walter's dough ball after it was balled and oiled.  The second photo is of the dough ball using Peter's suggestion of using 62% hydration and 2% sugar.  The third photo is of Walter's dough ball this morning.  The fourth photo is Peter's suggestion this morning, and the fifth photo is of the poolish that is going to be incorporated into the preferment Lehmann final dough tomorrow.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 06, 2014, 08:41:28 PM
Dough Doctor:  Staging ingredients impacts dough from Pizza Today

http://www.pizzatoday.com/departments/our-experts/2013-march-dough-doctor/ (http://www.pizzatoday.com/departments/our-experts/2013-march-dough-doctor/)

Sounds like I have been mixing my dough batches right.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 07, 2014, 10:47:44 AM
I realized this morning we had a dough box in the fridge left over from last week.  It was our 4 day dough that went to 7 days.  Man did it come out sweet.  I forgot my camera but Paige has some new fangeled device she bought this weekend and took pictures.  She is bringing in the cord to download it tomorrow.  I consistantly find letting our 4 day go past the 4 makes a great pie.  Today was the limit.  It was starting to blow out and had to be handled gently.  I am convinced the cold water we use to mix with affects how the sugars/flavor are developed in the dough as well.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 07, 2014, 06:15:16 PM
I realized this morning we had a dough box in the fridge left over from last week.  It was our 4 day dough that went to 7 days.  Man did it come out sweet.  I forgot my camera but Paige has some new fangeled device she bought this weekend and took pictures.  She is bringing in the cord to download it tomorrow.  I consistantly find letting our 4 day go past the 4 makes a great pie.  Today was the limit.  It was starting to blow out and had to be handled gently.  I am convinced the cold water we use to mix with affects how the sugars/flavor are developed in the dough as well.  Walter

Walter,

Your 7 day cold fermented pizzas sound wonderful!  ;D I wonder if anyone can explain why cold water affects how the sugar/flavor develop in the dough.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 07, 2014, 06:17:35 PM
This is the preferment Lehmann dough from Reply 225  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg90226#msg90226 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg90226#msg90226)  after the poolish preferment was mixed into the final dough this morning.  I added only the water amount in the formulation and the dough had a final dough temperature of 75.6 degrees F.  The poolish was bubbling fine until the dough was mixed this morning.  The GM Full Strength flour is the flour that was used in the preferment Lehmann dough. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 07, 2014, 06:21:52 PM
This is what Walter's dough ball looked like when I arrived at market today and what the other dough ball looked like from Peter's suggestion to use 62% hydration and 2% sugar.  Both dough balls have some speckles on top of the dough balls.  I think it is interesting that Walter's dough ball has fermented more than the other dough ball when both final dough temperatures were within 1 degree of each other.  Both dough balls were cold fermented on the same shelf in the back of my home refrigerator, so I would have thought they might both cold ferment the same.  I did not add any extra water to either dough when they were mixed.  I would have put both dough balls in the pizza prep fridge but there was not any room for them in there.  They both went on the bottom of the deli case until tomorrow.

The first two photos are of Walter's dough ball. and the third and fourth photos are of the dough ball that had 62% hydration and 2% sugar.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 07, 2014, 06:28:56 PM
Norma:  The ball looks good in color to me.  Color tells me just about everything with a multi day ferment.  You may get a suprise when you bake it.  The lack of sugar and oil definetely affects the fermentation process in some way.  Also the cold water, cold finished dough temp does something too.   I am not a scientist. I have come to use cold water because I like the color, texture, taste, of the crusts more than with a warmer finished dough temp.  I look forward to seeing the finished pies.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 07, 2014, 06:53:55 PM
Norma:  The ball looks good in color to me.  Color tells me just about everything with a multi day ferment.  You may get a suprise when you bake it.  The lack of sugar and oil definetely affects the fermentation process in some way.  Also the cold water, cold finished dough temp does something too.   I am not a scientist. I have come to use cold water because I like the color, texture, taste, of the crusts more than with a warmer finished dough temp.  I look forward to seeing the finished pies.  Walter

Walter,

Glad to hear that you think the dough ball is fermenting well and the color looks good.  I hope I get a surprise, but I also have a much different oven than you do.  That is very interesting that you think a colder final dough temperature gives better color, texture and taste than one with a warmer finished dough temperature.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 07, 2014, 07:19:55 PM
Walter,

Glad to hear that you think the dough ball is fermenting well and the color looks good.  I hope I get a surprise, but I also have a much different oven than you do.  That is very interesting that you think a colder final dough temperature gives better color, texture and taste than one with a warmer finished dough temperature.

Norma

I don't  have any scientific data to back up my theory but the cold water, higher yeast amount, no oil, no sugar, create a different dough ball than a warmer, lower yeast amount, sugared, oiled, dough ball.   I wish I could ship you one of my ovens to  use for a week.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 07, 2014, 07:32:43 PM
I wonder if anyone can explain why cold water affects how the sugar/flavor develop in the dough.
Norma and Walter,

This is a matter that I tried to explore and to understand in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.0 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.0). However, to my chagrin, I eventually came to accept that I could not explain why certain doughs could last so much longer under cold fermentation than others.

I think it is safe to say that using very cold water is a contributing factor to dough longevity but that is not the only factor in my opinion. For example, you might think that using a small amount of yeast will lead to a longer life. I believe that that is true to a certain extent but I tested that thesis using 0.25% IDY in one case and 0.60% IDY in another. In both cases, the preparation methods and dough formulations were the same, with similar thickness factors, but the amounts of dough were different (to make different size pizzas) and, as noted above, the amounts of IDY were different. The finished dough temperatures were very similar, both doughs were stored in lidded metal tins during fermentation (to keep them cooler), and neither dough formulation included any added sugar. The hydration in both cases was 65%, which was a value that was possible because I had sifted the flour and I used all three attachments of my mixer to make the dough, including the whisk attachment, the flat beater and the C dough hook.

The dough with the 0.25% IDY lasted 10 days and 4.5 hours, at which time I decided to make a pizza out of the dough. The dough with the 0.60% IDY lasted 12 days and 4.5 hours, when I used the dough to make a pizza. What I haven't mentioned thus far is that I added the IDY late in the dough making process. I believe that that was a major contributing factor to dough longevity, by slowing down the fermentation process more than might be achieved by using cold water alone. You can read about the two experiments discussed above at Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg35370#msg35370 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg35370#msg35370) and Reply 29 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg36081#msg36081 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg36081#msg36081). There are a couple of things that you will take away from those posts--the existence of good crust coloration and sweetness in the finished crusts even in the absence of any sugar added to the dough. Clearly, there was enough natural sugars extracted from the flour to feed (maybe starve is a better term) the yeast for up to twelve plus days yet provide good crust coloration and detectable sweetness. As noted in Reply 29, the degree of sweetness was not as much as the crust shown in Reply 23 but the flavor was still there, and pleasant at that. I think it was the higher amount of IDY for the dough discussed in Reply 29, along with a longer fermentation, that consumed more of the natural sugars than the dough discussed in Reply 23.

I once asked member November for his explanation of the above phenomena, at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33945#msg33945 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33945#msg33945). You can read his response in the following post at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33947#msg33947 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33947#msg33947). Now you can see why I did not come away from my experiments with a sense that I understood what was happening.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 07, 2014, 07:33:28 PM
I don't  have any scientific data to back up my theory but the cold water, higher yeast amount, no oil, no sugar, create a different dough ball than a warmer, lower yeast amount, sugared, oiled, dough ball.   I wish I could ship you one of my ovens to  use for a week.  Walter

Walter,

I used the same amount of IDY in both of my experimental doughs and also the same TF.  Both of my experimental dough balls weighed the same. 

I wish there could be an explanation for your theory, but I do believe you.  I also wish I could try one of your ovens for a week.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 07, 2014, 08:21:03 PM
Peter:  Thanks for sharing that information.  To be honest I am no where near spot on with my measurements/data collection like you are.  Luckily I have found a basic dough recipe I like and making it everyday makes my little tweaks with  the eyeball and feel factor result in pretty consistent  pies. 

Norma: As my mother says- the proofs in the pudding.  Tomorrow shall tell.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 07, 2014, 09:21:04 PM
Norma and Walter,

This is a matter that I tried to explore and to understand in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.0 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.0). However, to my chagrin, I eventually came to accept that I could not explain why certain doughs could last so much longer under cold fermentation than others.

I think it is safe to say that using very cold water is a contributing factor to dough longevity but that is not the only factor in my opinion. For example, you might think that using a small amount of yeast will lead to a longer life. I believe that that is true to a certain extent but I tested that thesis using 0.25% IDY in one case and 0.60% IDY in another. In both cases, the preparation methods and dough formulations were the same, with similar thickness factors, but the amounts of dough were different (to make different size pizzas) and, as noted above, the amounts of IDY were different. The finished dough temperatures were very similar, both doughs were stored in lidded metal tins during fermentation (to keep them cooler), and neither dough formulation included any added sugar. The hydration in both cases was 65%, which was a value that was possible because I had sifted the flour and I used all three attachments of my mixer to make the dough, including the whisk attachment, the flat beater and the C dough hook.

The dough with the 0.25% IDY lasted 10 days and 4.5 hours, at which time I decided to make a pizza out of the dough. The dough with the 0.60% IDY lasted 12 days and 4.5 hours, when I used the dough to make a pizza. What I haven't mentioned thus far is that I added the IDY late in the dough making process. I believe that that was a major contributing factor to dough longevity, by slowing down the fermentation process more than might be achieved by using cold water alone. You can read about the two experiments discussed above at Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg35370#msg35370 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg35370#msg35370) and Reply 29 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg36081#msg36081 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg36081#msg36081). There are a couple of things that you will take away from those posts--the existence of good crust coloration and sweetness in the finished crusts even in the absence of any sugar added to the dough. Clearly, there was enough natural sugars extracted from the flour to feed (maybe starve is a better term) the yeast for up to twelve plus days yet provide good crust coloration and detectable sweetness. As noted in Reply 29, the degree of sweetness was not as much as the crust shown in Reply 23 but the flavor was still there, and pleasant at that. I think it was the higher amount of IDY for the dough discussed in Reply 29, along with a longer fermentation, that consumed more of the natural sugars than the dough discussed in Reply 23.

I once asked member November for his explanation of the above phenomena, at Reply 13 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33945#msg33945 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33945#msg33945). You can read his response in the following post at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33947#msg33947 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33947#msg33947). Now you can see why I did not come away from my experiments with a sense that I understood what was happening.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for your detailed links and what your results were in those two different experiments.  Those results were very interesting and your pizzas looked very good.  I don't think I have ever tasted a sweetness in a crust that was cold fermented for a long while. 

I mixed exactly the same (with the flat beater first, then the dough hook) and used a timer in both experimental doughs.  The doughs were made in less than an hour apart, and balled and oiled the same.

I guess there are some things about dough I will never understand.

Norma 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 07, 2014, 09:22:44 PM

Norma: As my mother says- the proofs in the pudding.  Tomorrow shall tell.  Walter



Walter,

I agree, but don't expect me to have the same results as you do.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 07, 2014, 09:45:22 PM
I guess there are some things about dough I will never understand.
Norma,

As we have discussed many times before, what complicates matters in your case is that you work in an open, quasi-outdoor setting where the temperatures can vary all over the place. Also, you are constantly experimenting with new dough formulations--including formulations for many different styles--and you frequently experiment with new flours, tomatoes, cheeses, toppings, and different preparation methods. All these variables makes it difficult to know or learn what to expect in any given case. On the other hand, Walter operates in a much more stable environment, and he has limited his repertoire to a small number of pizza styles that he has mastered and has come to understand very well. He is more like a typical pizza operator who makes one or two different types of pizzas. There are some pizza operators like Tony Gemignani who have learned how to make different types of pizzas but you have perhaps made more different types of pizzas than he has in his entire life for his entire pizza empire. And you do it in a one-day-a-week operation.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 07, 2014, 10:09:21 PM
Norma,

As we have discussed many times before, what complicates matters in your case is that you work in an open, quasi-outdoor setting where the temperatures can vary all over the place. Also, you are constantly experimenting with new dough formulations--including formulations for many different styles--and you frequently experiment with new flours, tomatoes, cheeses, toppings, and different preparation methods. All these variables makes it difficult to know or learn what to expect in any given case. On the other hand, Walter operates in a much more stable environment, and he has limited his repertoire to a small number of pizza styles that he has mastered and has come to understand very well. He is more like a typical pizza operator who makes one or two different types of pizzas. There are some pizza operators like Tony Gemignani who have learned how to make different types of pizzas but you have perhaps made more different types of pizzas than he has in his entire life for his entire pizza empire. And you do it in a one-day-a-week operation.

Peter

Peter,

I know I don't stick to trying one dough different ways enough, so my results are usually all over the place.  I also have tried many different oven temperatures at market.  I know all those variables makes it difficult to learn or what to expect in any given case.  Today at market it was 46 degrees F, but at least I did not have to worry about making my experimental doughs there.  I know Walter operates in a much more stable environment and he has limited his pizzas to a NY style most of the time.  Walter also has the better oven to use.  Walter learned way more than I did from the old masters and also made breads in a commercial environments.   

I guess in the end I am way all over the place too much in what I try.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: parallei on April 07, 2014, 11:47:00 PM
Quote
I guess in the end I am way all over the place too much in what I try.

But you're enjoying the ride I hope!  I know I enjoy following your experiments. :chef:
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 08, 2014, 06:29:15 AM
But you're enjoying the ride I hope!  I know I enjoy following your experiments. :chef:

Paul,

Yes, I do enjoy the journey of trying different styles of pizzas, but maybe I would have had my boardwalk style of dough (or Lehmann dough) figured out a long while ago if I would have stuck with it.  Thanks for you kind comment. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 08, 2014, 01:56:56 PM
Norma:  I know you were shorthanded today and I felt for you. It must be an epidemic because Paige was a no show and I had to bust my hump overtime.  We made 1,000 cookies, a few hundred bagels, dog biscuits, and about 20 pizzas.  Paige is the only student I have that can answer the phone, do pizzas, the higher end work on the bagels, and count money accurately.   I pulled it off but if she doesn't return next year I will be having to seriously cut back.  Today I worked like I did when I was 20.  The only problem was I am almost 60.  I hope your day went ok.  Here are some 3 day old dough from today.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 08, 2014, 04:07:38 PM
Norma/Peter:  Back to the dough mysteries.  Another variable is this internet.  We are not in the same space physically.  I find the internet intersting on some levels but for actual doing nothing will replace everyone in the same room.  I feel lucky to have found a dough and style that has yet to bore me.  I use the same dough for whatever pizza I make and there are only 3.  The NY style I do 99.99999% and the occasional star like clone and a cast iron skillet pie are it.  The main thing is to follow what inspires one self :)  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 08, 2014, 04:59:43 PM
Norma/Peter:  Back to the dough mysteries.  Another variable is this internet.  We are not in the same space physically.  I find the internet intersting on some levels but for actual doing nothing will replace everyone in the same room.  I feel lucky to have found a dough and style that has yet to bore me.  I use the same dough for whatever pizza I make and there are only 3.  The NY style I do 99.99999% and the occasional star like clone and a cast iron skillet pie are it.  The main thing is to follow what inspires one self :)  Walter
Walter,

I understand what you are saying. However, this forum was created to help people make pizzas without the benefit of live instruction. And, to do that, it was necessary to have a language in which to communicate. As it turned out, that language took the form of baker's percents (weights) and the dough calculating tools. I remember what it was like before those tools were created. I had some of what is now in the tools on an Excel spreadsheet, which a former secretary offered to help me with when I sought her assistance in how to create it. And I remember how I would take that spreadsheet into my kitchen and weighed ingredients on my scale and converted them to volume measurements to help members make their dough on a case by case basis. It was a time consuming and tortuous experience that would have gotten much worse as the number of members increased. Plus I learned that my conversions weren't always the most accurate because of the many variations in measurements taken by volume. Had the dough calculating tools not been created, it would have been extremely difficult to teach members how to make pizza dough using volume measurements. I would not have survived the process. And Norma might not have ever heard of me but for my archived posts before she joined, and I would have not been around to help her.

Now, as much as Norma complains about her lack of math skills, she is able to use the dough calculating tools and to make all kinds of pizzas. No doubt, new members would have eventually joined the forum and figured out ways to do the same things as Mike (Boy Hits Car) did when we designed the dough calculating tools, but there is no way of knowing whether their work would have come too late. I believe that the dough calculating tools were the springboard and catalyst that allowed the forum to grow and become as popular and as successful as it has become. Aided by a good digital scale, which our members now routinely get, those tools established the medium of communication. Of course, it also helped that the forum could easily accept photos to allow members to see what words alone cannot easily convey.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 08, 2014, 07:43:48 PM
Peter: Your dough calculator is something that should put you in the pizza hall of fame.  I use it all the time.  Up till then it was like  you said - a lot of pencil and paper math which I never enjoyed but something you  had to do.  Thanks for creating the calculator.  I asked this before but maybe you missed it.  Do you sell the dough calculator?  My fear, now that I have grown so dependent on it, is this.  I have seen forums fold with no notice and all the connections one had via it disapear instantly and usually forever.  I would like to purchase your calculator so I will have it for the rest of my days.   Thanks.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 08, 2014, 08:29:22 PM
Peter: Your dough calculator is something that should put you in the pizza hall of fame.  I use it all the time.  Up till then it was like  you said - a lot of pencil and paper math which I never enjoyed but something you  had to do.  Thanks for creating the calculator.  I asked this before but maybe you missed it.  Do you sell the dough calculator?  My fear, now that I have grown so dependent on it, is this.  I have seen forums fold with no notice and all the connections one had via it disapear instantly and usually forever.  I would like to purchase your calculator so I will have it for the rest of my days.   Thanks.  Walter
Walter,

The original Lehmann dough calculating tool was based on work that Tom Lehmann had done with baker's percents and that I had studied at length except that I took it a few steps further by tying in the thickness factor concept. That tool was originally intended to be specific to Tom's NY style dough formulation but Mike and I decided to name the tool after Tom out of respect for all that he has done for pizza makers all around the world. But a good part of the credit for the dough calculating tools belongs to Mike. He was a programmer and had the skills that I did not have. Arguably, what Mike did was more valuable than what I did in the design aspects of the exercise. Unfortunately, Mike did the programming using facilities at a former employer. And when he left, his work remained behind and he no longer has access to that work. But what we did was for the benefit of the forum, and neither of us has any claims of ownership of the end products. You might send Steve a PM to see if there are ways for you to insure access to the tools.

After I composed the above, the thought crossed my mind to see if the Wayback Machine, which is a marvel and one of my favorite places to find things that have disappeared on the Internet, to see if the Wayback Machine has been archiving the Lehmann dough calculating tool. To my surprise, the answer is yes, and the Wayback Machine version worked when I tested it. The link I found (there appears to be many others) is at http://web.archive.org/web/20130918194709/http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html (http://web.archive.org/web/20130918194709/http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html). The general link for the Wayback Machine is at http://archive.org/web/ (http://archive.org/web/) so you may want to bookmark it for future reference. What I entered into the Wayback Machine was http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html).

The dough calculating tool that I use most often is the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html). I plugged the link to that tool in the Wayback Machine search box and that tool is also archived at Wayback Machine. I would imagine that the other dough calculating tools are also archived there.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 08, 2014, 09:50:11 PM
Norma:  I know you were shorthanded today and I felt for you. It must be an epidemic because Paige was a no show and I had to bust my hump overtime.  We made 1,000 cookies, a few hundred bagels, dog biscuits, and about 20 pizzas.  Paige is the only student I have that can answer the phone, do pizzas, the higher end work on the bagels, and count money accurately.   I pulled it off but if she doesn't return next year I will be having to seriously cut back.  Today I worked like I did when I was 20.  The only problem was I am almost 60.  I hope your day went ok.  Here are some 3 day old dough from today.  Walter

Walter,

I felt for you too that you were shorthanded today since Paige did not come to school.  I can understand that if Paige does not return next year you will have to cut back some.  You sure did a lot today.  At least you still can work like you did when you were 20.  ;D My day went okay but I am tired.  Hours at market since last week are until 9:00 PM.   

Your photos of your 3 day cold fermented pizzas look great!   ;D

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 08, 2014, 09:53:03 PM
These are a few photos of what ranges my bottom deck temperatures was today.  The deck temperatures were higher than I had thought.  Sorry the one photo is blurry.  I did time all of the experiments today for this thread and the bake times were between 5 minutes 15 seconds to 5 minutes 45 seconds.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 08, 2014, 10:00:00 PM
The photos are of the preferment Lehmann dough experiment today.  The dough ball opened up like a charm and the pizza baked okay.  There was nice oven spring, nice browning on the rim crust, a nice moistness in the rim crust and a decent crisp to the bottom crust.  I now recall why I liked the preferment Lehmann dough pizzas so much before.  There was a sweetness in the preferment Lehmann dough rim crust which I must have forgotten about until today.

The preferment Lehmann dough ball warmed up for 3 hrs. at the ambient room temperature of about 73 degrees F.

I did not have a lot of time to take detailed photos today because Steve was sick and could not come to market.  My granddaughter's boyfriend helped me sell the pizzas today and did dishes which was a big help.

I had some of my taste testers taste the preferment Lehmann dough pizza slices.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 08, 2014, 10:01:48 PM
Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 08, 2014, 10:55:40 PM
This was the experimental pizza using Walter's formulation, but I did not use cold water like Walter does in the mix.  The dough ball warmed up for 2 ½ hrs. and did develop a big bubble while warming up.  The dough ball was very easy to open.  It can be seen that my pizza does not look anything like Walter's pizzas.  There was not good rim crust browning like Walter achieves.  Walter's pizza did have a moist rim and was tasty.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 08, 2014, 11:00:42 PM
These are what the dough ball looked like at about 11:00 AM this morning.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 08, 2014, 11:02:07 PM
Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 08, 2014, 11:22:12 PM
These are the photos of how the experimental dough using Peter's suggestion of using 62% hydration and adding 2% sugar to the formulation.

The first two photos were taken at the same time as Walter's dough ball.  The dough ball was also warmed up for 2 ½ hrs. 

As can be seen the rim crust did brown a little better, but the bottom crust was a little too dark.  When tasting the bottom crust the darker crust still tasted okay, but I don't think my customers would like a darker bottom crust.  The rim crust did stay moist and the dough ball opened easily.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 08, 2014, 11:24:28 PM
Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 09, 2014, 06:01:30 AM
Norma:  All the pies looked good!  Your oven runs hotter than mine and I am suprised you get such light browning on the bottoms at that temp.  At that high a temp my bottoms would look like your last picture bottom.  So did any of the experiments equal or exceed your 1 day dough flavor?  I was suprised to see such light color on the rim with my recipe.  It could be the camera too.  That is another variable with internet correspondences.  I know my pies look a lot lighter in the pictures than in the flesh.  I am glad you survived the day.  I learned a lot yesterday and am in the process of drawing up a proposition to my superiors that will hopefully be a win-win for me, them, and the kids.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 09, 2014, 08:59:20 AM
Norma:  All the pies looked good!  Your oven runs hotter than mine and I am suprised you get such light browning on the bottoms at that temp.  At that high a temp my bottoms would look like your last picture bottom.  So did any of the experiments equal or exceed your 1 day dough flavor?  I was suprised to see such light color on the rim with my recipe.  It could be the camera too.  That is another variable with internet correspondences.  I know my pies look a lot lighter in the pictures than in the flesh.  I am glad you survived the day.  I learned a lot yesterday and am in the process of drawing up a proposition to my superiors that will hopefully be a win-win for me, them, and the kids.  Walter

Walter,

I was also surprised that the preferment Lehmann dough and your dough gave such light browning on the bottom crust.  I usually watch the cheese to try to determine when the pizzas are baked enough.  I am using a higher fat cheese than you do though.  I was also surprised the rim crust of your pizza experiment was very light, even though the artificial lighting does not really show what the pizzas looked like.  My camera is not the best for photos.  It is just a cheap Sony cyber shot camera.  I thought your experimental dough would show more blistering on the rim crust because of how the dough ball was fermented more than enough, but maybe I didn't bake enough.

To answer your question about did any of the experiments equal or exceed my 1 day cold fermented dough pizza the answers are mixed.  For you pizza there was a nutty taste in the rim crust only I could taste.  The photo I posted of the bottom crust on Peter's 62% hydration and 2% sugar added was the darkest photo of the bottom crust just to show how dark it was.  I liked the preferment Lehmann dough pizza the best, but when asking my taste testers if they thought it was better or the same, two of them told me it tasted the same to them as my one day cold fermented pizzas.  I then said doesn't the experimental pizza have a sweeter flavor in the rim crust and wasn't it moister and then they said they also noticed that.  Note that I need prompting for them to notice that.  I thought your experimental pizza had a nice wheaty flavor in the rim crust, but when I asked taste testers they said the one day cold fermented dough pizzas tasted better in the rim crust.  Of course I am using a different oven for all of my experiments than you do and different oven temperatures.  I thought the preferment Lehmann dough experimental pizza looked the best all around.   

A man and his wife that usually purchase whole pizzas when they come to market ask me yesterday how I can stretch the dough so much without it tearing.  The man told me he also makes pizzas at home.  I tried to explain as much as I could in a short while to help him.  The man then told me that he and his wife are from Philly and there are pizzerias on every corner there.  He said he was surprised that a market pizza could be so good and he has tried many pizzas in Philly.  I told the man it has taken me awhile to arrive at the boardwalk style of pizza I am now making.  I then told him this forum is where I learned to make all of my pizzas and I am still experimenting.  I think he is going to become a member after talking to him.

Will be interesting if you post about what your proposition is from what you learned yesterday, and how it works out if your superiors accept it.  I know I would have had a heck of a day yesterday, and would not have been able to keep up with everything if I would not have had help. 

To give you an idea, or anyone else that is interested, these are a few photos of the boardwalk style from the one day cold ferment from some of the first pizzas out of the oven and a few other photos.

I am at a loss of what to do now.

Norma     
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 09, 2014, 10:53:04 AM
Norma,

Do you normally use the same oven temperature when you make your boardwalk and Detroit style pizzas at market, and, if so, did you use your usual oven temperature for the three different pizzas you made yesterday as part of your experiments?

And do you remember offhand what the finished dough temperature was for your version of Walter's dough?

In retrospect, for the dough formulation I suggested, I think that the 2% sugar was too high for the oven temperatures you reported. The conventional advice, such as routinely dispensed by Tom Lehmann and others, is to use little or no sugar for pizzas to be baked in deck ovens. Without knowing what you would report in the way of temperatures of your oven, I had hoped that the sugar would provide just the right amount of bottom crust browning and also avoid the need to use pizza screens to control bottom crust coloration. I suspected that 2% sugar might have been on the high side, and that seems supported by the results you achieved yesterday. By contrast, neither of the two other pizza doughs (the preferment Lehmann and your version of Walter's dough) had any added sugar.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 09, 2014, 11:41:23 AM
Norma:  Thanks for the detailed response and for being so kind in your comparisons.  I am from Jersey so you don't have to be so nice.  Just say "Walter my pie dusted yours" :-D  Ypu have  your following Norma and they dig your pies.  That is as good as it gets.  That is cool you tasted a bit of nutty flavor to the dough.  That is the taste I love and our dough has a strong flavor in that sense.  Yesterday and earlier  today we got real busy and used up all our bench risen dough.   I had to use straight from the fridge dough balls.  They cooked great.  The crust doesn't burst as much and it is more dense but nobody notices but me.  That is another thing I like about my dough formula.  It can come right out of the fridge, opens easy, tosses fine.  Great for when in a pinch.  See you.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 09, 2014, 11:47:39 AM
Norma,

Do you normally use the same oven temperature when you make your boardwalk and Detroit style pizzas at market, and, if so, did you use your usual oven temperature for the three different pizzas you made yesterday as part of your experiments?

And do you remember offhand what the finished dough temperature was for your version of Walter's dough?

In retrospect, for the dough formulation I suggested, I think that the 2% sugar was too high for the oven temperatures you reported. The conventional advice, such as routinely dispensed by Tom Lehmann and others, is to use little or no sugar for pizzas to be baked in deck ovens. Without knowing what you would report in the way of temperatures of your oven, I had hoped that the sugar would provide just the right amount of bottom crust browning and also avoid the need to use pizza screens to control bottom crust coloration. I suspected that 2% sugar might have been on the high side, and that seems supported by the results you achieved yesterday. By contrast, neither of the two other pizza doughs (the preferment Lehmann and your version of Walter's dough) had any added sugar.

Peter

Peter,

I have not changed my oven temperatures at market for a long while, so yes, I do normally use those temperatures for the boardwalk and Detroit style of pizzas.  My oven temperatures can change though depending on how many slices are being reheated and also how many times I have to rotate the pizzas. Yes, I did use about those same temperatures to bake all of the three different experimental pizzas.  The Detroit style pizzas are baked on top deck where the temperatures are lower, but some have been baked on the bottom deck.  I do start some of the boardwalk style pizzas on the top deck and then move them to the bottom deck to finish baking when I am busy. 

The final dough temperature of Walter's dough was 74.8 degrees F, and your experimental dough had a final dough temperature of 75.2 degrees F.

I can understand you had no idea of what deck temperatures I am using when you suggested I add 2% sugar to the formulation.  I do not seem to have any problems using 0.85% sugar in the formulations I have been using for the boardwalk style of pizzas in getting the bottom crust too dark.  I know neither of the other two dough balls had sugar added.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 09, 2014, 11:57:46 AM
Norma:  Thanks for the detailed response and for being so kind in your comparisons.  I am from Jersey so you don't have to be so nice.  Just say "Walter my pie dusted yours" :-D  Ypu have  your following Norma and they dig your pies.  That is as good as it gets.  That is cool you tasted a bit of nutty flavor to the dough.  That is the taste I love and our dough has a strong flavor in that sense.  Yesterday and earlier  today we got real busy and used up all our bench risen dough.   I had to use straight from the fridge dough balls.  They cooked great.  The crust doesn't burst as much and it is more dense but nobody notices but me.  That is another thing I like about my dough formula.  It can come right out of the fridge, opens easy, tosses fine.  Great for when in a pinch.  See you.  Walter

Walter,

I was not really being kind in the comparisons.  I was just telling you what happened.  Lol, about your reply though and that Jersey thinking.  :-D  I only have started to have a bigger following since I have been making the boardwalk style of pizzas.  If I did not try so many pizzas from other pizza businesses and so many experiments I would have thought your dough made the best kind of pizza that could be made in my deck oven.  I still wish I could try your pizzas from your oven.  8) I noticed how easy your dough ball was to open yesterday and thought it probably would open very well right out of the fridge.  I would not have been able to toss your dough skin yesterday though.  I think that was because it was overfermented a little.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 09, 2014, 12:43:51 PM
Norma:  You are to kind.  Jersey talk only works in NYC and NJ I learned once I left home with music and got a rude awakening to how polite the rest of the country is.  I think you said your market temp was the upper 70's?  With temps like that I would take my dough out 45-1 hour before using.  We run pretty steady here in the winter/early spring at 68-70.  Today it got into the mid 70's in our room and I took them out about an hour before using. No bubbles, opened easy, tossed fine.  That is great you are having real pizza lovers come in and compliment your pies.  That is as good as it gets.   Today a guy came to order a pie and had never seen one tossed live.  He video taped Paige tossing.  Stuff like that touches my heart.  As little kids we would sit at the feet of the old men as they made pies in their white outfits and aprons.  It was as good as watching a pro baseball game!  When I started fooling with cold water bread ferments years ago the first thing that hit me was the nutty flavor.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 09, 2014, 02:38:20 PM
I have not changed my oven temperatures at market for a long while, so yes, I do normally use those temperatures for the boardwalk and Detroit style of pizzas.  My oven temperatures can change though depending on how many slices are being reheated and also how many times I have to rotate the pizzas. Yes, I did use about those same temperatures to bake all of the three different experimental pizzas.  The Detroit style pizzas are baked on top deck where the temperatures are lower, but some have been baked on the bottom deck.  I do start some of the boardwalk style pizzas on the top deck and then move them to the bottom deck to finish baking when I am busy. 

The final dough temperature of Walter's dough was 74.8 degrees F, and your experimental dough had a final dough temperature of 75.2 degrees F.

I can understand you had no idea of what deck temperatures I am using when you suggested I add 2% sugar to the formulation.  I do not seem to have any problems using 0.85% sugar in the formulations I have been using for the boardwalk style of pizzas in getting the bottom crust too dark.  I know neither of the other two dough balls had sugar added.

Norma
Norma,

I'm beginning to think that your oven and the high temperatures you have been using may be behind some of the unfavorable results you have been getting. But this may all be moot if you are not in a position to lower the bake temperature and increase the bake time because you need and rely on your regular bake protocol to make the pizzas that you are selling. That leaves you in the position of having to adapt the test dough formulations to the oven rather than the oven to the formulations. For example, in lieu of 2% sugar, you could use around 0.85% sugar since that already seems to work well with your oven protocol. Whether that is good enough may be something you would have to test. Each dough formulation adapts to the oven in a different way. In your case, you might select one dough formulation to test over time and play around with different versions of that formulation to see if you can find a version that works best for your particular oven protocol.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 09, 2014, 08:10:15 PM
Norma:  You are to kind.  Jersey talk only works in NYC and NJ I learned once I left home with music and got a rude awakening to how polite the rest of the country is.  I think you said your market temp was the upper 70's?  With temps like that I would take my dough out 45-1 hour before using.  We run pretty steady here in the winter/early spring at 68-70.  Today it got into the mid 70's in our room and I took them out about an hour before using. No bubbles, opened easy, tossed fine.  That is great you are having real pizza lovers come in and compliment your pies.  That is as good as it gets.   Today a guy came to order a pie and had never seen one tossed live.  He video taped Paige tossing.  Stuff like that touches my heart.  As little kids we would sit at the feet of the old men as they made pies in their white outfits and aprons.  It was as good as watching a pro baseball game!  When I started fooling with cold water bread ferments years ago the first thing that hit me was the nutty flavor.  Walter

Walter,

Lol about the Jersey talk.  I met a lot of people from NJ and NYC that were polite and kind. 

The inside market temperatures were in the lower 70's yesterday.  I now understand, since you explained it to me, that I probably had your dough ball tempering too long.  I almost always have a problem with trying to decide how many dough balls to warm up because of different market temperatures. 

That was nice that the man video taped Paige tossing.  I wonder why he never saw a pie tossed live.  You had the best of times since you could sit at the feet of the old men as they made pies in their white aprons.  I would have liked to have been able to do that.  The best I had was an older Italian woman that was a friend of one of my girlfriends.  I watch her make pizzas in her home and also tried to do what she did when I got home.  To say the least I sure made a mess of my mother's kitchen and the pizza didn't turn any good either.

Norma   
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 09, 2014, 08:22:02 PM
Norma,

I'm beginning to think that your oven and the high temperatures you have been using may be behind some of the unfavorable results you have been getting. But this may all be moot if you are not in a position to lower the bake temperature and increase the bake time because you need and rely on your regular bake protocol to make the pizzas that you are selling. That leaves you in the position of having to adapt the test dough formulations to the oven rather than the oven to the formulations. For example, in lieu of 2% sugar, you could use around 0.85% sugar since that already seems to work well with your oven protocol. Whether that is good enough may be something you would have to test. Each dough formulation adapts to the oven in a different way. In your case, you might select one dough formulation to test over time and play around with different versions of that formulation to see if you can find a version that works best for your particular oven protocol.

Peter

Peter,

Interesting to hear you think that my oven and the high temperatures may be behind some of the unfavorable results I have been getting.  I am in a position to lower the bake temperatures if you think that might help. 

It still makes me wonder how I did get blistering on those rim crusts at Reply 1810  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg305067#msg305067 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg305067#msg305067) with a longer cold ferment than a day.  The oven temperatures were the same then as now.

What do you suggest to try next?

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 09, 2014, 08:45:27 PM
Interesting to hear you think that my oven and the high temperatures may be behind some of the unfavorable results I have been getting.  I am in a position to lower the bake temperatures if you think that might help. 

It still makes me wonder how I did get blistering on those rim crusts at Reply 1810  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg305067#msg305067 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg305067#msg305067) with a longer cold ferment than a day.  The oven temperatures were the same then as now.

What do you suggest to try next?

Norma
Norma,

As best I can tell from what you reported in Reply 1810 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg305067#msg305067 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg305067#msg305067), it appears that the temperature of the deli case was higher than that of the pizza dough fridge. That could have caused the dough to overferment. In such a case, it would not have been uncommon or unexpected to have the small bubbles in the dough that formed the small blisters in the finished baked crust.

As for what to try next, I think it might be useful to make a few pizzas with a longer bake at a lower oven temperature to see if that leads to better crust development and flavors. I don't think it really matters what dough you use at this point but you might try either Walter's dough formulation or the one I suggested but either omitting the sugar altogether, to parallel Walter's dough for comparison purposes, or reduce the sugar from 2% to something like 0.75-0.85%. You might even use the lower bake temperature and longer bake time with your regular boardwalk dough.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 09, 2014, 09:16:59 PM
Norma,

As best I can tell from what you reported in Reply 1810 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg305067#msg305067 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg305067#msg305067), it appears that the temperature of the deli case was higher than that of the pizza dough fridge. That could have caused the dough to overferment. In such a case, it would not have been uncommon or unexpected to have the small bubbles in the dough that formed the small blisters in the finished baked crust.

As for what to try next, I think it might be useful to make a few pizzas with a longer bake at a lower oven temperature to see if that leads to better crust development and flavors. I don't think it really matters what dough you use at this point but you might try either Walter's dough formulation or the one I suggested but either omitting the sugar altogether, to parallel Walter's dough for comparison purposes, or reduce the sugar from 2% to something like 0.75-0.85%. You might even use the lower bake temperature and longer bake time with your regular boardwalk dough.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for explaining why you think I had those little blisters in the finished baked crust from the boardwalk thread. 

I can make two test dough balls again on Friday.  I guess I should use cold water like Walter does for his dough.  I can reduce the sugar back to 0.85% and keep the hydration at 62% on the other dough ball.  I will lower the bake temperatures for all of the pizzas on Tuesday.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 10, 2014, 07:42:28 AM
Norma:  If you didn't care for that hint of nutty flavor I would scrap my recipe.   If you are going to do it again put ice in your coldest tap water and stir it good and strain the ice cubes out.  Use that temp water with no oil/sugar and see what happens.  That is how I do it.   Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 10, 2014, 07:56:16 AM
Norma:  If you didn't care for that hint of nutty flavor I would scrap my recipe.   If you are going to do it again put ice in your coldest tap water and stir it good and strain the ice cubes out.  Use that temp water with no oil/sugar and see what happens.  That is how I do it.   Walter

Walter,

I do like that nutty wheat flavor very much.  Thanks for the tip on putting the ice in my coldest tap water.  I will probably use filtered water out of the fridge because my tap water is well water.  If I use the fridge filtered water is that enough, or should I still add ice?

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 10, 2014, 07:59:19 AM
Peter,

I wanted to ask you another question.  What temperature do you think I should be aiming for in the bottom deck to get even bottom crust browning and decent rim browning?

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 10, 2014, 09:18:53 AM
I wanted to ask you another question.  What temperature do you think I should be aiming for in the bottom deck to get even bottom crust browning and decent rim browning?

Norma
Norma,

You understand your oven and its idiosyncrasies better than I, but I was thinking the usual range that Tom Lehmann often speaks of for a deck oven, which is about 500-525 degrees F (see, for example, his PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/cooking-temp-with-deck-oven.6699/#post-43698 (http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/cooking-temp-with-deck-oven.6699/#post-43698)). I have seen Tom go as low as 450 degrees F but that would seem too low to me, and that is why Tom usually advises pizza operators to test different bake temperatures to find the optimum for their given applications, as he once advised you at http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/oven-temperature.8089/#post-55794 (http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/oven-temperature.8089/#post-55794).

You might also find Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1355.msg12252;topicseen#msg12252 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1355.msg12252;topicseen#msg12252) of interest because it quotes Tom on the benefits of a longer bake at a lower oven temperature.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 10, 2014, 11:43:03 AM
Norma,

You understand your oven and its idiosyncrasies better than I, but I was thinking the usual range that Tom Lehmann often speaks of for a deck oven, which is about 500-525 degrees F (see, for example, his PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/cooking-temp-with-deck-oven.6699/#post-43698 (http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/cooking-temp-with-deck-oven.6699/#post-43698)). I have seen Tom go as low as 450 degrees F but that would seem too low to me, and that is why Tom usually advises pizza operators to test different bake temperatures to find the optimum for their given applications, as he once advised you at http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/oven-temperature.8089/#post-55794 (http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/oven-temperature.8089/#post-55794).

You might also find Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1355.msg12252;topicseen#msg12252 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1355.msg12252;topicseen#msg12252) of interest because it quotes Tom on the benefits of a longer bake at a lower oven temperature.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you very much for those links.  I forgot about what Tom Lehmann told me on PMQ Think Tank.  Those posts were not too long after I started making pizzas at market.  In my opinion your mind is like a computer that recalls everything.  ;D I used to have some of those grill (hockey puck) thermometers but they kept breaking fast in my deck oven.  I might have to purchase one again to help me see what the actual temperatures are across the deck in addition to my IR gun. 

I did find the reply at #7 interesting.  I did not know a slower bake would give a better flavor to the crust and better crispness over a fast bake. 

I will try to achieve a temperatures of around 525 degrees F on Tuesday.  I might even play with my deck oven tomorrow while I am at market.  That way when I get to market Tuesday I won't have to be guessing until I get to around 525 degrees F.  Right now my dial is set at around 545 degrees F, but it could be seen my temperatures did not stay there. 

If a slower bake is so much better for flavor and crispness why are most members here on the forum trying for fast bakes for NY style pizzas in your opinion?

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 10, 2014, 12:29:15 PM
If a slower bake is so much better for flavor and crispness why are most members here on the forum trying for fast bakes for NY style pizzas in your opinion?

Norma
Norma,

Scott (scott123) is a better one than I to answer that question but I believe that he answered it quite well in his post at Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22794.msg233691;topicseen#msg233691 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22794.msg233691;topicseen#msg233691). Also, you might recall that he concluded that you would have to modify your oven in order to optimize the pizzas out of it. See, for example the last four paragraphs of Scott's post at Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20126.msg197785;topicseen#msg197785 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20126.msg197785;topicseen#msg197785).

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 10, 2014, 01:37:13 PM
Peter,

Thank you very much for those links.  I forgot about what Tom Lehmann told me on PMQ Think Tank.  Those posts were not too long after I started making pizzas at market.  In my opinion your mind is like a computer that recalls everything.  ;D I used to have some of those grill (hockey puck) thermometers but they kept breaking fast in my deck oven.  I might have to purchase one again to help me see what the actual temperatures are across the deck in addition to my IR gun. 

I did find the reply at #7 interesting.  I did not know a slower bake would give a better flavor to the crust and better crispness over a fast bake. 

I will try to achieve a temperatures of around 525 degrees F on Tuesday.  I might even play with my deck oven tomorrow while I am at market.  That way when I get to market Tuesday I won't have to be guessing until I get to around 525 degrees F.  Right now my dial is set at around 545 degrees F, but it could be seen my temperatures did not stay there. 

If a slower bake is so much better for flavor and crispness why are most members here on the forum trying for fast bakes for NY style pizzas in your opinion?

Norma

Norma:  Each oven will have its own personality.  Your go to pizzas come out great.  It seems when you start experimenting the results start to vary.  Personally I know my oven for my pizza like you know yours for your go to pizza.   You like your 1 day dough, your customers do and many of them are knowledgable of NY style pies.  So I ask why mess with it when it ain't busted?  From my experience on the old deck ovens like I have and the BP, Barri, ovens, they were always run between 500-575 but most ran between 500-550.  Anything higher than that results in burnt bottoms and that was never the norm when I was growing up.  From what I can tell there were a few places that burnt the bottoms/edges and now that the wood fire craze has become the rave more deck people are burning their pies than back when I grew up in NJ/NYC in the late 50's-70's.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 10, 2014, 02:27:22 PM
Norma,

Scott (scott123) is a better one than I to answer that question but I believe that he answered it quite well in his post at Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22794.msg233691;topicseen#msg233691 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22794.msg233691;topicseen#msg233691). Also, you might recall that he concluded that you would have to modify your oven in order to optimize the pizzas out of it. See, for example the last four paragraphs of Scott's post at Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20126.msg197785;topicseen#msg197785 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20126.msg197785;topicseen#msg197785).

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for referencing Scott's post.  I never tried Pizza Town or Williamsburg pizzas, but have tried Best Pizza, New Park and Joe's pizzas.  I did like Best, New Park and Joe's (the last time I tried a slice at Joe's) but was not blown away by any of them.  I was recently talking to Walter in a few PM's about what is a really good NY style pizzas supposed to taste like.  In some of my bakes in my Baker's Pride oven with lower or higher temperatures I still can get decent oven spring if the formulation is okay.  Maybe I am just getting too fussy about the tastes of pizzas since I have tried so many.  The Blackstone unit didn't help any either with me being fussy because I had some good tasting NY style pies baked there.

Maybe Scott can answer me (if he wants to) about why a NY style pizza of long ago wouldn't be crispy and why a traditional NY slice was never that crispy.  I understand a crispness to a NY style and also understand the different kind of crispness to the bottom crust in a pizza like De Lorenzo's (very crispy) or Star Tavern (also crispy, but not as much as De Lorenzo's), but don't think I fully understand how a NY style pizza crispness should be.

In the second link you referenced I could taste the difference in the Skater's Party pizza, but those temperatures were high and the dough was cold fermented for a few days. I recall about Scott telling me what I could do to improve my oven at market and appreciate he told me what I could do, but I think there must be some other way of making a pizza that can blow me away in my deck oven the way it is now.  Right now I do like my boardwalk style pizzas but there is always room for improvement, or at least trying.  I guess that all takes me back to the old days when I thought Mack's pizza was so great.

I liked the looks of the photos I posted at Reply 610 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=18407.msg231098#msg231098 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=18407.msg231098#msg231098) but I now forget what those pizzas tasted like.

The one pizza that Scott and others liked is at Reply 40 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17417.msg170219#msg170219 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17417.msg170219#msg170219) and at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17417.msg169185#msg169185 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17417.msg169185#msg169185)   When I looked at it now I think the bottom crust was a little too dark for my customers (especially in the video). 

I know I am more confused than ever since looking at all those posts.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 10, 2014, 02:41:30 PM
Norma:  Each oven will have its own personality.  Your go to pizzas come out great.  It seems when you start experimenting the results start to vary.  Personally I know my oven for my pizza like you know yours for your go to pizza.   You like your 1 day dough, your customers do and many of them are knowledgable of NY style pies.  So I ask why mess with it when it ain't busted?  From my experience on the old deck ovens like I have and the BP, Barri, ovens, they were always run between 500-575 but most ran between 500-550.  Anything higher than that results in burnt bottoms and that was never the norm when I was growing up.  From what I can tell there were a few places that burnt the bottoms/edges and now that the wood fire craze has become the rave more deck people are burning their pies than back when I grew up in NJ/NYC in the late 50's-70's.  Walter

Walter,

I know each oven will have its own personality.  Thanks for saying my go to pizzas look good.  I know when I experiment my results vary very much.  I know you have figured out your oven and what formulation makes the best NY style pizzas.  I also know my customers like the formulation I am now using for my pizzas, but I guess I haven't fully experimented enough to get to where I want go with my pizza crusts.  I like the saying “why mess with it when it ain't busted”, but there in something in me that makes me want to make the best crust I can with the oven I have.  I appreciate you told me what temperatures were the norm for NY style pizzas years ago.  I think I am running my oven too high right now.  I know the wood fired pies are darker in the bottom crust than what NY style pizzas are supposed to be.  I know my customers don't like darker bottom crusts.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 10, 2014, 03:03:37 PM
Norma:  I say keep on doing what you are doing because it turns you on.  I had some funky old solid state public adress system junk someone gave me awhile back.  I met a minister from Africa and he told me about how poor the people were there and how they take what we call junk and make it work.  I gave him the gear and you would think I gave him a million dollar system.  I am not saying your oven is junk but what I am saying is it is amazing what people can do with less than stellar equipment when they are inspired and you sure are inspired.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 10, 2014, 04:03:46 PM
Norma:  I say keep on doing what you are doing because it turns you on.  I had some funky old solid state public adress system junk someone gave me awhile back.  I met a minister from Africa and he told me about how poor the people were there and how they take what we call junk and make it work.  I gave him the gear and you would think I gave him a million dollar system.  I am not saying your oven is junk but what I am saying is it is amazing what people can do with less than stellar equipment when they are inspired and you sure are inspired.  Walter

Thanks for your thoughts Walter!  I know my deck oven isn't the best but I really don't have the money to try to convert it (and not really know if converting it would really help a lot) and sure don't have enough space to purchase a better deck oven to try.  If, and when I get the new floor in that is going to cost enough money for right now.  I liked your story about giving your funky old solid state public address system to less fortunate people.

I forgot to mention before now, but I did used the weight of 1.15 lb. for all of the experimental dough balls and the boardwalk style of dough balls this week.   

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 10, 2014, 07:43:21 PM
Norma:  You have to pay for a new floor?    I figured the market would pay for that.  Your boardwalk pies look great to me.  My dough balls are 20-20.3 oz for an 18" pizza.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 10, 2014, 09:51:39 PM
Norma:  You have to pay for a new floor?    I figured the market would pay for that.  Your boardwalk pies look great to me.  My dough balls are 20-20.3 oz for an 18" pizza.  Walter

Walter,

I have to pay for all the 2x4's, the better kind of plywood, the linoleum and pay for someone to install the linoleum.  Market is supposed to be paying the maintenance men to pull everything out of my stand, for them to build the floor and for the maintenance men to move everything back in the stand again, so market is paying for a part of the work that needs to be done. 

Thanks again for saying the boardwalk style of pizzas look great to you.  I would like a smaller rim crust and no matter how hard I try I usually can't obtain a smaller rim crust with the current formulations I am trying.  It might be hard to see on the photos, but the preferment Lehmann dough pizza, your dough pizza and the one Peter recommended all did have a bit smaller rim crust when looking at them in person.  I am not sure why that was. 

Do you know what TF you are using if your dough balls are 20-20.3 oz. for an 18” pizza? 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 11, 2014, 05:53:08 AM
Walter,

I have to pay for all the 2x4's, the better kind of plywood, the linoleum and pay for someone to install the linoleum.  Market is supposed to be paying the maintenance men to pull everything out of my stand, for them to build the floor and for the maintenance men to move everything back in the stand again, so market is paying for a part of the work that needs to be done. 

Thanks again for saying the boardwalk style of pizzas look great to you.  I would like a smaller rim crust and no matter how hard I try I usually can't obtain a smaller rim crust with the current formulations I am trying.  It might be hard to see on the photos, but the preferment Lehmann dough pizza, your dough pizza and the one Peter recommended all did have a bit smaller rim crust when looking at them in person.  I am not sure why that was. 

Do you know what TF you are using if your dough balls are 20-20.3 oz. for an 18” pizza? 

Norma

Norma: That is good they are doing the heavy work and you don't have to pay for it.  I have not run a commercial business in the private sector just in the schools.  I have a lot to learn about renting and running my own shop in regards to repairs/upgrades and such.  On the rim crust it looks like you extend the sauce and topping out to the edges the right amount.  Do you work some of the air out of the edge of the dough before final shaping?  I poke it with my fingers all the way to the edge if the dough if airy and flatten any big bubbles.  If it is still pretty dense I don't mess with the dough much and mainly just shape /toss.    This is all dependent on the fermentation state of the dough.  Do you build a rim on the edge?  I do somewhat but not near as much as what I have seen on videos posted here. I don't use the thickness factor in the calculator just dough weight.  I like a thin crust with a puffy edge.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 11, 2014, 07:32:11 AM
Do you know what TF you are using if your dough balls are 20-20.3 oz. for an 18” pizza? 

Norma
Norma,

The thickness factor is 20/(3.14159 x 9 x 9) = 0.078595 to 20.3/(3.14159 x 9 x 9) = 0.079774. Using 0.08 should be good enough.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2014, 08:46:07 AM
Norma: That is good they are doing the heavy work and you don't have to pay for it.  I have not run a commercial business in the private sector just in the schools.  I have a lot to learn about renting and running my own shop in regards to repairs/upgrades and such.  On the rim crust it looks like you extend the sauce and topping out to the edges the right amount.  Do you work some of the air out of the edge of the dough before final shaping?  I poke it with my fingers all the way to the edge if the dough if airy and flatten any big bubbles.  If it is still pretty dense I don't mess with the dough much and mainly just shape /toss.    This is all dependent on the fermentation state of the dough.  Do you build a rim on the edge?  I do somewhat but not near as much as what I have seen on videos posted here. I don't use the thickness factor in the calculator just dough weight.  I like a thin crust with a puffy edge.  Walter

Walter,

I agree it is good if the maintenance men can help with all the heavy work and I won't have to pay for that.  My one area of my floor is getting really bad and hopefully the oven doesn't fall before they get around to tearing out the old floor.  Just last Friday I was standing on the step stool to clean off the top of the oven and the floor is so bad that the step stool almost tipped over and I almost took a spill.  I am sure you will learn all that you need to know before renting and or running your own shop.  Market is a little different than owning or renting your own shop.  I have market rules to follow. 

As for the way I cheese and sauce it is different than a normal NY style pizza because the sauce is applied in a swirl between two layers of cheese.  The cheese isn't evenly distributed like on a regular NY style pizza.  Right now with the formulation I have been using I tried to press out the dough like Mack's pizza does.  I have tried to form a rim and open normally, but that doesn't seem to work with the formulation I am using.  Also my marble slab where I opened the dough balls on is getting scratched due to wear.  It is harder to slide a dough ball around now because flour gets stuck in those scratches.  I can only imagine how bad it will become when the humidity of summer comes.  The preferment Lehmann dough ball opened normally for some reason and I could slide that around and form a rim a lot better.  I do work some of the air out of the edges of the dough before the final shaping when using the method like Mack's uses.  I also try to flatten any big bubbles if they occur.  I know that shaping and tossing is all dependent on the fermentation state of the dough.  I also like a thin rim crust with a puffy edge so I must be doing something wrong with my normal dough balls.  I guess I have to rethink about all you have told me and try everything you said. 

Thanks for your help!

Norma 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2014, 08:47:24 AM
Norma,

The thickness factor is 20/(3.14159 x 9 x 9) = 0.078595 to 20.3/(3.14159 x 9 x 9) = 0.079774. Using 0.08 should be good enough.

Peter

Thanks Peter!

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 11, 2014, 01:34:52 PM
Norma:  I know marble is the rage but I prefer our stainless steel work tables to any other surface.   They are bulletproof, clean up great, require no treatments, have no cracks/crevaces,  and with a dusting of flour make opening dough balls easy.  I may not be hip with them but they sure are user friendly :)  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2014, 06:42:49 PM
Norma:  I know marble is the rage but I prefer our stainless steel work tables to any other surface.   They are bulletproof, clean up great, require no treatments, have no cracks/crevaces,  and with a dusting of flour make opening dough balls easy.  I may not be hip with them but they sure are user friendly :)  Walter

Walter,

The table under the marble is stainless steel.  When I can get someone to help me lift the marble slab I might take it off to try the stainless steel table.  I did start out using the stainless steel table.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2014, 06:48:42 PM
I purchased a grill-top thermometer at the webrestaurant store today.  It was the only grill-top thermometer they carried at my local store.  I also purchased two thermometers to see what the temperature is in the bottom of the pizza prep fridge.  There is one thermometer there, but I am not sure if it is working properly. 

The first photo is where the dial on the oven was set before I fired the oven up.  I worked with the oven for 3 hrs. to try to get the temperatures as close as I could to 525 degrees F.  If the dial was moved a little it did change the temperature on the bottom stone after awhile, but I had temperatures all over the place at first.  I don't think the dial is accurate because where it is set was not the temperatures I saw when using the IR gun.  The last photo is where the dial is set now.

The grill-top thermometer never went above the temperature shown in the photo no matter where it was placed on the bottom stone.  That thermometer is going to be returned.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2014, 06:50:33 PM
Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 11, 2014, 07:26:08 PM
Norma:  Cool you have stainless underneath.  You may rediscover you like it.  Oven temps with the IR gun and those range thermometers are often not all that accurate I was told by the guy who repaired one of our southbend convection ovens a few weeks ago.  He has been repairing commercial kitchen equipment forever and has this little probe gizmo that he hangs in the oven and told me that was the most accurate way to do it.  For me with only doing 1 basic pizza  I know the oven dial pretty well so speak. I am not really concerned with what the IR gun says but how the pizzas cook. We run our lower deck at 450 for our artisan breads, strombolis, pepperoni rolls, bagels and that temp came about from playing with the dial as well.  I guess what I am trying to say is you know your oven better than you think.  Follow your gut with the dial setting and note the results.  Also I wonder do you run pie after pie or give the deck time to recover heat?  That is one thing with my ovens that I love.  They really need little to no recovery time.  If one is fully loaded when I pull one out, grate some cheese on it, slice it, that deck space is ready for another pie.   Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2014, 08:01:49 PM
Norma:  Cool you have stainless underneath.  You may rediscover you like it.  Oven temps with the IR gun and those range thermometers are often not all that accurate I was told by the guy who repaired one of our southbend convection ovens a few weeks ago.  He has been repairing commercial kitchen equipment forever and has this little probe gizmo that he hangs in the oven and told me that was the most accurate way to do it.  For me with only doing 1 basic pizza  I know the oven dial pretty well so speak. I am not really concerned with what the IR gun says but how the pizzas cook. We run our lower deck at 450 for our artisan breads, strombolis, pepperoni rolls, bagels and that temp came about from playing with the dial as well.  I guess what I am trying to say is you know your oven better than you think.  Follow your gut with the dial setting and note the results.  Also I wonder do you run pie after pie or give the deck time to recover heat?  That is one thing with my ovens that I love.  They really need little to no recovery time.  If one is fully loaded when I pull one out, grate some cheese on it, slice it, that deck space is ready for another pie.   Walter

Walter,

I agree I might find I like the stainless steel table over the marble slab.  I wish I could purchase on of those little probe gizmos that your repair man had.  I will wait and see what happens Tuesday with the dial set where it is now.  It is good to hear our might have even fooled around with the dial.  ;D  I do know my oven can bake okay if only I can fine the best temps to bake at.  I do make one pie right after another without any time for the deck temperature to recover.  I don't really have any other options.  The pies seem to bake the same.  I recalled today while I was at market that my pies seemed to bake best the first thing in the mornings.  That is about an hour after I fire-up the oven.  I am now thinking I probably did get better bakes with lower temperatures.

If you want to get a good laugh look at the photo I posted at Reply 29 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8341.msg72976#msg72976 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8341.msg72976#msg72976)  You will see I had a dough press back then because I did not think I would be able to learn to open dough balls.  You can also see how happy I was at Reply 55 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8341.msg74713#msg74713 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8341.msg74713#msg74713) when I posted the dough was much more manageable.  I think in that photo it can be seen the stainless steel table that is below the marble slab right now.  I had a heck of a time learning to make pizzas.  I even asked Peter about getting a sheeter in that thread.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 12, 2014, 07:43:00 AM
Norma: You sure have come a long way but you pizzas still looked good back then.  It was nice to see you shop layout and you are not lying when you say it is small.  I didn't see a vent over your oven.  It must get hot in there!  Your oven has 1 burner underneath the bottom deck and that heats both stones?  If that is right do you find the stones cook different because one has direct heat?  I have seen large ovens with that set up but never made pizzas in them.  You are making different thickness/ingredient crusts so do you run one style through and then adjust the heat for the next?  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 12, 2014, 09:16:05 AM
Norma: You sure have come a long way but you pizzas still looked good back then.  It was nice to see you shop layout and you are not lying when you say it is small.  I didn't see a vent over your oven.  It must get hot in there!  Your oven has 1 burner underneath the bottom deck and that heats both stones?  If that is right do you find the stones cook different because one has direct heat?  I have seen large ovens with that set up but never made pizzas in them.  You are making different thickness/ingredient crusts so do you run one style through and then adjust the heat for the next?  Walter

Walter,

There is a vent over my oven but it isn't the type of vent that draws heat out (see below photo).  It does get very hot in my pizza stand in the summer.  That is one reason why I dread having to be at market on those long hot days because I am right in front of the deck oven most of the day.  Yes, the one burner does heat up the whole oven with side channels that direct the heat up and also holes on those side channels.  The top deck is not as hot as the bottom deck, but there are not a lot of differences in temperatures in the top deck compared to the bottom deck.  Yes, the top deck does take a little longer for the bake.  That is why if I have a pizza on the bottom deck and start one on the top deck I quickly move the pizza on the top deck to the bottom deck as soon as the pizza on the bottom deck is baked enough.  I almost never adjust the temperature while I am actually making pizzas.  The dial for temperature control is very touchy.  I would have a mess with all of my pizzas if I kept changing the temperatures all day long.  :-D  If you are interested in seeing how my deck oven is built, it is at this link. http://www.bakerspride.com/manuals/PartsList/Countertop/GP61%20Parts%20list%209-05.pdf (http://www.bakerspride.com/manuals/PartsList/Countertop/GP61%20Parts%20list%209-05.pdf) 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 12, 2014, 09:19:41 AM
The two dough balls (Walter's and the one with 62% hydration and 0.85% sugar) were mixed yesterday in the late morning.  I did not take them along to market because there were other errands I needed to do before I went to market and the temperature outside was in the lower 70's.  The two dough balls are on the bottom shelf in the back of the fridge at home.

For Walter's dough I put the water in the freezer until some ice crystals formed on the water.  The final dough temperature was 66.6 degrees F.  For the other dough the final dough temperature was 77.4 degrees F.  Walter's dough ball is the first one in the two photos.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 13, 2014, 07:40:07 AM
Norma:  You have your oven figured out.  I looked at your manual.  Do you know how many BTU's it is?  How thick are your stones?  I feel for you with the heat.  Until they built our new high school we were in a room with one small window and no air conditioning.  We had 4 home ovens in it (was an old home ec. room) and it got over 100 for about 3 months of the year.  Now with  powerful central a/c I feel like a spoiled child because this is the first commercial setting I have worked in with noticable a/c in the kitchen.

I recently bought a prep table and have learned the fridge unit underneath does not keep dough as cold as our True upright fridge.  The 4 day dough recipe lasts about 3 in the prep table but will easily go to 5-6 days in the True.  Fridge temps may be part of the cause to your confusing results with these experiments?  A big factor with internet experiments is all our variables can be slightly to radically different and will effect the final dough. 

Your final dough temp is perfect.  I look forward to seeing what happens.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 13, 2014, 10:19:19 AM
Norma:  You have your oven figured out.  I looked at your manual.  Do you know how many BTU's it is?  How thick are your stones?  I feel for you with the heat.  Until they built our new high school we were in a room with one small window and no air conditioning.  We had 4 home ovens in it (was an old home ec. room) and it got over 100 for about 3 months of the year.  Now with  powerful central a/c I feel like a spoiled child because this is the first commercial setting I have worked in with noticable a/c in the kitchen.

I recently bought a prep table and have learned the fridge unit underneath does not keep dough as cold as our True upright fridge.  The 4 day dough recipe lasts about 3 in the prep table but will easily go to 5-6 days in the True.  Fridge temps may be part of the cause to your confusing results with these experiments?  A big factor with internet experiments is all our variables can be slightly to radically different and will effect the final dough. 

Your final dough temp is perfect.  I look forward to seeing what happens.  Walter

I really don't have my deck oven figured out, if I am now lowering the temperatures, so I can understand if the pizzas would bake better for a one day cold ferment, or a four day cold ferment.  I posted before I have tried many oven temperatures before and never truly found out what were the best oven temperatures to use. 

This is the document for my GP-61 Baker's Pride deck oven that says the BTU's are 45,000.  The Codierite ceramic hearth bake decks are 1” thick.  The man I purchased my oven from said the deck oven came from an Olive Garden Restaurant but I am not sure if that is true. http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/Hearthbake/Hearthbake_GP.pdf (http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/Hearthbake/Hearthbake_GP.pdf)   

I do mind the heat some when the days are long, but I did work at our caramel popcorn, cotton candy, etc. in the heat for many years.  We also had food approved shed at home to pop our corn (before the caramelizing) and did make other food products in that shed with no air-conditioning.  We also had a concession trailer we took to fairs and festivals in the summertime and set-up on the ground sometimes.  Those burners from the caramel corn kettle and the regular popcorn machines also made a lot of heat, and so did the cotton candy machines.  In the end I was some what conditioned to work in the heat, but since I am also getting older, I don't know how many summers I will be able to tolerate the heat all day long.     

I hear you when you know say you feel spoiled since you have a powerful air-conditioning now.  Your situation in the old home ec. room is something like I am experiencing. 

Interesting that your prep table does not keep the dough as cold as your True upright fridge.  Thanks for mentioning that my pizza prep fridge might be the cause of some of my confusing results with these experiments.   I know my pizza prep fridge and also the deli case run differently in colder weather than in warmer weather.  That is one reason why I purchased two thermometers for the bottom of my prep fridge to see just how cold it really is.  Neither are really good thermometers though.  If I fiddle around with the temperature dial on the prep fridge I can really mess those temperatures up too because that dial is also touchy and is hard to reach in the bottom back of the prep table.

Norma 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 13, 2014, 10:22:21 AM
This is what Walter's dough ball and the other dough ball look like this morning just a little while ago.  Walter's dough ball are the first two photos.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 13, 2014, 11:29:10 AM
I really don't have my deck oven figured out, if I am now lowering the temperatures, so I can understand if the pizzas would bake better for a one day cold ferment, or a four day cold ferment.  I posted before I have tried many oven temperatures before and never truly found out what were the best oven temperatures to use. 

This is the document for my GP-61 Baker's Pride deck oven that says the BTU's are 45,000.  The Codierite ceramic hearth bake decks are 1” thick.  The man I purchased my oven from said the deck oven came from an Olive Garden Restaurant but I am not sure if that is true. http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/Hearthbake/Hearthbake_GP.pdf (http://www.bakerspride.com/specs/Hearthbake/Hearthbake_GP.pdf)   

I do mind the heat some when the days are long, but I did work at our caramel popcorn, cotton candy, etc. in the heat for many years.  We also had food approved shed at home to pop our corn (before the caramelizing) and did make other food products in that shed with no air-conditioning.  We also had a concession trailer we took to fairs and festivals in the summertime and set-up on the ground sometimes.  Those burners from the caramel corn kettle and the regular popcorn machines also made a lot of heat, and so did the cotton candy machines.  In the end I was some what conditioned to work in the heat, but since I am also getting older, I don't know how many summers I will be able to tolerate the heat all day long.     

I hear you when you know say you feel spoiled since you have a powerful air-conditioning now.  Your situation in the old home ec. room is something like I am experiencing. 

Interesting that your prep table does not keep the dough as cold as your True upright fridge.  Thanks for mentioning that my pizza prep fridge might be the cause of some of my confusing results with these experiments.   I know my pizza prep fridge and also the deli case run differently in colder weather than in warmer weather.  That is one reason why I purchased two thermometers for the bottom of my prep fridge to see just how cold it really is.  Neither are really good thermometers though.  If I fiddle around with the temperature dial on the prep fridge I can really mess those temperatures up too because that dial is also touchy and is hard to reach in the bottom back of the prep table.

Norma

Norma:  After reading this you just may have your ovens figured out :)  With 45k btu's and 1" stones I don't think we can compare temps/bake times with any authority.  My ovens are 120k btu's for each oven and the stone is made of different material and is 1.5" thick, and each deck can cook 4-18" pies at a time.  Also with more square footage of deck stone and our oven ceilings much different there are tons of variables.......  IMO your boardwalk pies look great and you have captured the essence of them without the ovens they use. Your oven temp does them justice but I understand trying to lower the temps.  Most NY/NJ pizzerias bake at 500-550 with the big BP and Blodgett ovens.   I hear you on the  heat factor too!  I am going up to Reno NV this summer with my friend who wants to finance a pizzeria for me.   I found a commerical realtor and we will see whats up there and check out housing.  Any space I look at will have to have good a/c  and an open floor plan so the pizza maker and customer can easily chat as the pies are made.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 13, 2014, 12:28:42 PM
Norma:  After reading this you just may have your ovens figured out :)  With 45k btu's and 1" stones I don't think we can compare temps/bake times with any authority.  My ovens are 120k btu's for each oven and the stone is made of different material and is 1.5" thick, and each deck can cook 4-18" pies at a time.  Also with more square footage of deck stone and our oven ceilings much different there are tons of variables.......  IMO your boardwalk pies look great and you have captured the essence of them without the ovens they use. Your oven temp does them justice but I understand trying to lower the temps.  Most NY/NJ pizzerias bake at 500-550 with the big BP and Blodgett ovens.   I hear you on the  heat factor too!  I am going up to Reno NV this summer with my friend who wants to finance a pizzeria for me.   I found a commerical realtor and we will see whats up there and check out housing.  Any space I look at will have to have good a/c  and an open floor plan so the pizza maker and customer can easily chat as the pies are made.  Walter

Walter,

I will wait and see on Tuesday what a lower bake temperature does to all of the pizzas.  Your ovens and stones are a lot different than mine are.  I also know about the tons of variables between our ovens.  I have eaten at many pizzerias in NYC for over 15 years.  I also have tasted Mack's pizzas many times since I was a child.  If Mack's could change from using deck ovens like they did to Roto-Flex Rotating Deck Ovens maybe I still have hope in using my deck oven to make decent pizzas.  :-D

Best of luck to you and your friend in finding out about a pizzeria and housing in the Reno area.  I know you would do well with a pizzeria in that area with the pies you are making now.  Good to hear you will have good air conditioning and have an open floor plan so the pizza maker and customers can easily chat as the pies are made.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 14, 2014, 06:40:25 PM
Walter's dough ball looks like it might double in size until tomorrow with a 4 day cold ferment.  The other dough ball with the 62% hydration and 0.85% sugar added doesn't look too far off either, but there were some soft bubbles on top of the dough ball, (with 62% hydration and 0.85% sugar added) today when I got to market.  I placed both dough balls in the bottom of the deli case.  Right before I left market today I checked on both dough balls.  The dough ball, (with 62% hydration and 0.85% sugar added) did have a bigger bubble on the top of the dough ball until then.  The bigger bubble was pinched shut.  The little black spots on the bottom of the one dough ball are poppy seeds that dropped into the plastic container before I knew they were there on Friday.

They are a few gray speckles on the dough balls again.  It makes me wonder why there were no speckles on the Star Tavern dough ball that had been cold fermented for 10 days.  That dough ball was also stored while it was cold fermenting in the same brand of plastic container I am now using for my experiments.  The only thing that was different is that the plastic container was smaller.  I was going to use Kyrol flour to mix those two dough balls but instead I tried GM Full Strength flour (the same flour I used for the two experimental doughs in this thread).  The Star Tavern dough balls did have about the right amount of ADY for a one day cold ferment. 

I looked at the temperature in the bottom of prep fridge today a few times and the temperature was 36 degrees F.

The first two photos are of Walter's dough ball. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 14, 2014, 07:42:38 PM
Norma,

Based on the tape measurements you showed in Replies 251 and 254, I estimate that Walter's dough ball initially increased in volume by about 20% (Reply 251) and then increased in volume by about 31% (Reply 254). By contrast, I estimate that the other dough ball initially increased in volume by about 42% (Reply 251) and then increased in volume by 68% (Reply 254).

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 14, 2014, 08:28:16 PM
Norma,

Based on the tape measurements you showed in Replies 251 and 254, I estimate that Walter's dough ball initially increased in volume by about 20% (Reply 251) and then increased in volume by about 31% (Reply 254). By contrast, I estimate that the other dough ball initially increased in volume by about 42% (Reply 251) and then increased in volume by 68% (Reply 254).

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for estimating how much each dough ball increased in volume, (in the times I posted photos of using the poppy seed trick) over the 3 day cold ferment.  That was interesting to hear.  If the dough ball, that is not Walter's, increases as much by tomorrow I guess I am adding too much IDY for a 4 day cold ferment.  Maybe I should not let the other dough ball warm-up as long tomorrow.  It is supposed to be around 60 degrees F in our area tomorrow, then quickly drop in temperatures when a cold front comes through.  Maybe even snow tomorrow evening.

I tried to take the prep fridge temperature today with my IR gun but that does not work well.  The food inspection lady has some kind of special gun to take temperatures in the fridges.

I forgot to mention that Walter's dough ball smells better.  I have no idea of why that is.  I think if the bottom of those two dough balls were just looked at they almost looked like they are fermenting the same.  The poppy seed trick does help to see what is going on.  Walter's dough ball by looking just at the bottom looks like it has bigger bubbles to me.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 14, 2014, 08:44:29 PM
Norma:  My dough ball is looking, smelling, right on schedule from what I can tell. I never have done the containers only dough boxes.  the dough balls look different when not contained. It is the ice water that does it for the flavor due to the way it works with the sugars.  Tomorrow will tell.  Like I have said earlier when I started fooling with ice water and overnight to 2 day fridge ferments with bread I found that nutty flavor and got hooked.  You said nutty in one of our correspondences.  I didn't know quite what word to use but you nailed it.  Now I am deep into same day french bread and multi day sourdoughes. The ice water breads have faded but transfered to my pizza doughes :)  I look forward to your report. 

We  had the big television station from columbus in today for 3 hours filming for an upcoming story.  The woman doing the story was reluctant to eat but a sliver of pizza. These people are always eating rich foods served by chefs/restaurants and like politicians usually have a few tiny bites and thats it. I convinced her to have a whole slice.  She ended up eating 3 and said the dough had a flavor/texture like she never tasted and she is from Chicago(said no such pizza is in Chicago) and called herself a pizza snob which made me feel good.  She was a very kind person and we had a great day with her making pizzas, bagels, with the kids.  We used a 4 day dough.  Hopefully you will find the same results tomorrow. Walter 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 14, 2014, 08:57:47 PM
f the dough ball, that is not Walter's, increases as much by tomorrow I guess I am adding too much IDY for a 4 day cold ferment.  Maybe I should not let the other dough ball warm-up as long tomorrow.  It is supposed to be around 60 degrees F in our area tomorrow, then quickly drop in temperatures when a cold front comes through.  Maybe even snow tomorrow evening.
Norma,

To a great extent this depends on what you are using as a benchmark and what you are trying to achieve. If you are using Walter's dough as the benchmark and you are looking for the same degree of volume expansion as Walter achieves, then it might be necessary to adjust the amount of yeast for a four-day cold fermentation. But remember that there are no hard and fast rules for the degree of volume expansion. The dough might increase by fifty percent, or two hundred percent (a doubling) or by three hundred percent (a tripling) and still be usable. Tempering of the dough allows you a measure of control over the final degree of volume expansion.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 14, 2014, 09:07:35 PM
Norma:  My dough ball is looking, smelling, right on schedule from what I can tell. I never have done the containers only dough boxes.  the dough balls look different when not contained. It is the ice water that does it for the flavor due to the way it works with the sugars.  Tomorrow will tell.  Like I have said earlier when I started fooling with ice water and overnight to 2 day fridge ferments with bread I found that nutty flavor and got hooked.  You said nutty in one of our correspondences.  I didn't know quite what word to use but you nailed it.  Now I am deep into same day french bread and multi day sourdoughes. The ice water breads have faded but transfered to my pizza doughes :)  I look forward to your report. 

We  had the big television station from columbus in today for 3 hours filming for an upcoming story.  The woman doing the story was reluctant to eat but a sliver of pizza. These people are always eating rich foods served by chefs/restaurants and like politicians usually have a few tiny bites and thats it. I convinced her to have a whole slice.  She ended up eating 3 and said the dough had a flavor/texture like she never tasted and she is from Chicago(said no such pizza is in Chicago) and called herself a pizza snob which made me feel good.  She was a very kind person and we had a great day with her making pizzas, bagels, with the kids.  We used a 4 day dough.  Hopefully you will find the same results tomorrow. Walter

Walter,

I am glad to hear your dough ball is looking and smelling right on schedule from what you can tell.  I know dough balls look different when they are contained.  At least experimental dough balls can be watched better (to see what is going on) when they are in plastic containers, or glass containers.  I wish had fridge space to use regular dough trays.  You might be the riding on the “newest wave” of making different pizza dough if ice water gives that nutty flavor from working with the sugars.  ;D Yes, I did say nutty and wheaty.  Maybe your dough will be great but my oven temp might be wrong for your pizza.  Always variables.   :-D

I read your post about the big television station from Columbus today and the filming and upcoming story.  Great to hear the lady that was interviewing you loved your pizza and the different flavor/ texture.  Sounds like you had a lot of fun today.  Congrats!  :chef:

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 14, 2014, 09:15:27 PM
Norma,

To a  great extent this depends on what you are using as a benchmark and what you are trying to achieve. If you are using Walter's dough as the benchmark and you are looking for the same degree of volume expansion as Walter achieves, then it might be necessary to adjust the amount of yeast for a four-day cold fermentation. But remember that there are no hard and fast rules for the degree of volume expansion. The dough might increase by fifty percent, or two hundred percent (a doubling) or by three hundred percent (a tripling) and still be usable. Tempering of the dough allows you a measure of control over the final degree of volume expansion.

Peter

Peter,

I really don't know what I am trying to achieve yet with Walter's dough ball or the other dough ball.  I know dough balls can be used at different degrees of expansion.  I will watch both dough balls while tempering tomorrow, but would tend to think the other dough ball might need less IDY added.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 15, 2014, 09:51:24 PM
All of the NY pizzas today turned out much better today when using the lower oven temperatures.  ;D Thanks Peter, Tom Lehmann and Walter for helping me make better NY pizzas!  I would not have ever guessed that a lower bake temperatures would make better NY pizzas.  The regular NY dough crusts were all good, and that also includes my regular boardwalk NY pizzas.  Bake times were between 6 minutes 15 seconds to 6 minutes 45 seconds.

The cheese also melted better and looked much better in Steve's and my opinions than baking at higher temperatures.  We also thought the sauce looked better combined with the cheese after the bake.

Walter's dough ball performed well. 8)  It can be seen on the first photo how it looked before it was tempered at the ambient room temperature of about 74 degrees F.  The poppy seeds expanded a little more though in the hour temper time, but I forgot to take a photo of that. 

Walter's dough ball was very easy to open, but I don't think I could have tossed or twirled the skin.  Steve and I both liked the taste of Walter's baked pizza.  We both thought the rim crust was moist and nutty tasting.

As always the photos don't reflect the true colors when taken in artificial lighting.

The only thing that did not happen today was I didn't get the same oven spring with Walter's dough ball, or the other ball I experiment I did today, compared to the decent oven spring I had with my regular dough balls. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 15, 2014, 09:57:11 PM
Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 16, 2014, 06:05:24 AM
Norma: I am glad to hear the lower temp helped!  I am glad my dough worked ok for you too minus the spring. Did you flatten the dough all the way to the edge?  If so maybe next week leave the edges alone. I often only stretch the dough because it is so easy to open.  Tossing IMO is not necessary for a good pie.  The pies look great too!  You are about the same bake times I am at I think.  I will have to time one today if I remember.  I just take em out when they are done :)  What was your oven temp?   Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 16, 2014, 07:45:31 AM
Norma: I am glad to hear the lower temp helped!  I am glad my dough worked ok for you too minus the spring. Did you flatten the dough all the way to the edge?  If so maybe next week leave the edges alone. I often only stretch the dough because it is so easy to open.  Tossing IMO is not necessary for a good pie.  The pies look great too!  You are about the same bake times I am at I think.  I will have to time one today if I remember.  I just take em out when they are done :)  What was your oven temp?   Walter

Walter,

I did not need to flatten or press bubbles out of your skin at all.  There were not many fermentation bubbles in the skin.  Your dough ball and the other dough ball opened so fast, that there was nothing else I had to do.  I really liked the smaller rim your dough ball produced.

I must have missed the photo last evening, but I did take one after your dough ball was tempered.  As can be seen a bubble formed on your dough ball in the short temper time, even though the dough ball had only doubled in the 4-day cold fermentation, plus the temper time.

I would be interested in hearing your bake times again if you remember to take some.  I am not sure what the oven temperature was when I made your pie.  My bottom deck ranges in different temperatures depending on where it is measured with the IR gun.

During your watching bake times and oven temperatures in NYC, for a NY pizza, what do you believe was the norm years ago in bake times and oven temperatures? 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 16, 2014, 07:52:42 AM
Walter,

I did not need to flatten or press bubbles out of your skin at all.  There were not many fermentation bubbles in the skin.  Your dough ball and the other dough ball opened so fast, that there was nothing else I had to do.  I really liked the smaller rim your dough ball produced.

I must have missed the photo last evening, but I did take one after your dough ball was tempered.  As can be seen a bubble formed on your dough ball in the short temper time, even though the dough ball had only doubled in the 4-day cold fermentation, plus the temper time.

I would be interested in hearing your bake times again if you remember to take some.  I am not sure what the oven temperature was when I made your pie.  My bottom deck ranges in different temperatures depending on where it is measured with the IR gun.

During your watching bake times and oven temperatures in NYC, for a NY pizza, what do you believe was the norm years ago in bake times and oven temperatures? 

Norma

Norma:  Glad you liked the rim.  I prefer a small/medium rim to a big one personally.  I will time the pies today.  Ovens ran at 500-550 back then and still do today if they use the old ovens.  They are the same ovens I use and if you push them past that the bottoms burn.  mid 500 range pushes them to the limit.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 16, 2014, 08:02:53 AM
Norma:  Glad you liked the rim.  I prefer a small/medium rim to a big one personally.  I will time the pies today.  Ovens ran at 500-550 back then and still do today if they use the old ovens.  They are the same ovens I use and if you push them past that the bottoms burn.  mid 500 range pushes them to the limit.  Walter

Walter,

I have to think over if I want to try to get a lower final dough temperature for your formulation, or use less IDY.  Thanks for telling me what the deck ovens ran at back then and also today.  I know when I pushed my deck oven up too high in temperatures my bottom crusts burnt too.  On some temperature readings yesterday some were still at about 550 degrees F, while some other ones were a little below 500 degrees F. 

At least my Detroit style pizzas did not mind the lower bake temperatures.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 16, 2014, 08:13:34 AM
Norma,

I agree that your latest pizzas turned out well with the new bake protocol.

You didn't say much about the other dough ball. I was especially curious to know what the final spacing of the poppy seeds for that dough ball was, whether the rim was also small, and what effect the lower hydration and sugar had, if any.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 16, 2014, 08:18:07 AM
Walter,

I have to think over if I want to try to get a lower final dough temperature for your formulation, or use less IDY.  Thanks for telling me what the deck ovens ran at back then and also today.  I know when I pushed my deck oven up too high in temperatures my bottom crusts burnt too.  On some temperature readings yesterday some were still at about 550 degrees F, while some other ones were a little below 500 degrees F. 

At least my Detroit style pizzas did not mind the lower bake temperatures.

Norma

Norma: I rarely get bubbles in the warm up.   I would cut back on the yeast and or colder fridge temps.  Whatever your oven temps are the pies looked great.  As you know the oven temps vary as the bakes go on.  I have baked as low as 450 and had great pies IMO. I am not trying to sway you to my methods just commenting.  You are a way better pizza maker than you give yourself credit for.  Walter

Bake time: 6:23
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 16, 2014, 10:16:33 AM
Norma,

I agree that your latest pizzas turned out well with the new bake protocol.

You didn't say much about the other dough ball. I was especially curious to know what the final spacing of the poppy seeds for that dough ball was, whether the rim was also small, and what effect the lower hydration and  sugar had, if any.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks!  I also want to thank you for helping me understand that a lower bake temperature can sometimes be better. 

I have been busy doing things for my mother since her home has been sold, the relator keeps wanting more things copied, my dog needed to be taken to the groomer this morning, I took a walk, the therapists and another woman have been calling me from where my mother lives now (for me to sign more papers), I had to make a hair dresser appointment for my mother this morning, I had to get water bottles filled, and there were so many more things that needed to be done this morning.  It is a wonder my mind is still functioning anymore this morning.  :-D

I just have to resize the photos and do a write-up of what happened with the other dough ball.  It will be soon that I have those photos for you to look at and see what you think then.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 16, 2014, 10:18:53 AM
Norma:  Bake times:

warm dough Bake time: 6:23

colder dough :  Bake time: 8:00

The 8 minute time is pretty typical of the pies I grew up with (8-10 minute bakes).  I am not sure  how accurate my oven temps are but I really don't care because I know when the pies are done and I like them the way they come out :)  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 16, 2014, 10:50:11 AM
Norma: I rarely get bubbles in the warm up.   I would cut back on the yeast and or colder fridge temps.  Whatever your oven temps are the pies looked great.  As you know the oven temps vary as the bakes go on.  I have baked as low as 450 and had great pies IMO. I am not trying to sway you to my methods just commenting.  You are a way better pizza maker than you give yourself credit for.  Walter

Bake time: 6:23

Walter,

I thought that bubble might be from the way I might have formed the dough ball, but I am not sure now.  Even though the dough ball did not look overfermented by using the poppy seed trick, the way the dough ball handled and the amount of oven spring in the rim crust, tends to make me think that I would need to lower the final dough temperature or use less IDY.  I also really liked the looks of the pie made with your dough formulation.  I am not sure if you want to, but maybe other members might be interested in your dough formulation if you want to post it.  Your dough formulation, along with your methods of using cold water does make a very tasty NY pizza.  Thanks for posting that you have baked as low as 450 degrees F and had great pies. 

Thanks for your bake time!  It is interesting that we both get about the same bake times with much different deck ovens.  Do you recall bake times in NY pizzas from long ago?

I wanted to mention that I used the same TF for your dough ball, the other dough ball and for my regular dough balls Monday.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 16, 2014, 10:53:34 AM
Norma:  Bake times:

warm dough Bake time: 6:23

colder dough :  Bake time: 8:00

The 8 minute time is pretty typical of the pies I grew up with (8-10 minute bakes).  I am not sure  how accurate my oven temps are but I really don't care because I know when the pies are done and I like them the way they come out :)  Walter

Thanks Walter for the additional bake time with a colder dough.  Thanks also for answering the other question I had about bake times in the NY pizzas you grew up on. 

I know your NY pizzas look great.  :chef:

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 16, 2014, 11:53:50 AM
These are the photos of the other dough ball and final other pizza that had 62% hydration and 0.25% IDY for a 4-day cold ferment.  The other dough ball did develop more bubbles on top of the dough ball while it cold fermented from Monday until Tuesday.  I pinched  those bubbles shut when I saw them.  I guess that pinching those bubbles did change how the poppy seeds looked in the spacings before the other dough ball warmed up, so it might not be accurate really how much the other dough ball changed in the warm-up. 

The other dough ball was also very easy to open with not many fermentation bubbles in the skin.  Steve and I thought the other dough ball also made a very good NY pizza.  The rim crust was moist, there was decent rim crust browning and the bottom crust had good browning.

I don't know why when I take photos of whole pizzas that the rim crusts look bigger in the photos than in person, but that is what seems to happen.

Norma   
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 16, 2014, 11:55:59 AM
Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 16, 2014, 01:45:35 PM
Walter,

I thought that bubble might be from the way I might have formed the dough ball, but I am not sure now.  Even though the dough ball did not look overfermented by using the poppy seed trick, the way the dough ball handled and the amount of oven spring in the rim crust, tends to make me think that I would need to lower the final dough temperature or use less IDY.  I also really liked the looks of the pie made with your dough formulation.  I am not sure if you want to, but maybe other members might be interested in your dough formulation if you want to post it.  Your dough formulation, along with your methods of using cold water does make a very tasty NY pizza.  Thanks for posting that you have baked as low as 450 degrees F and had great pies. 

Thanks for your bake time!  It is interesting that we both get about the same bake times with much different deck ovens.  Do you recall bake times in NY pizzas from long ago?

I wanted to mention that I used the same TF for your dough ball, the other dough ball and for my regular dough balls Monday.

Norma

Norma:  Boy you have a full plate right now.  I read your previous post.   Thanks for taking the time to post the results and the compliment on my dough recipe. If you and Steve said it was ok I take that as a big compliment!   NYC/NJ bake times were always in the 8-10 minute range and still are for the most part from what I see on my visits home.  The high temp coal ovens were not the norm in the 60-70's but ovens like mine were and still are.  When you would call in for a pie to go they always told you it would be ready in 15 minutes (standard answer unless they were swamped beyond words but very telling in the time factor - a couple minutes to make the pie, 10 minutes or so to bake it).  I don't get the interest you do with my pies but if anyone wants the info they can PM me.  Part of my trouble for doing things via the net is I change things in mid stream alot.  Today I lowered the oven temp on the top deck some because it was cooking too fast on the bottoms but yesterday they were fine.  My hydration in the dough today was a bit higher than normal and they puffed around the edges more than normal thus the burning.......  It is a fine line between getting it right and burning(charring). I don't like char(burnt) crust and most people here don't either.  With weather warming up I will be cutting back on yeast.  These things are too complicated to keep updating on the net- recipe/oven temp/hydration, etc.   So what I did today was today and tomorrow will tell me what to tweak.  I dig this about dough/yeast.  It is an ever changing thing and I like pushing the safety zone to max out flavors and that means on the fly adjustments.  Things like checking the dough  and seeing it needs to stay in the fridge to about 1/2 hour before baking or it might need to come out 2 hours before.  Things change as you well know in a commercial setting.  Home baking is a much easier game to get right on all the time.  I don't really want to find a perfect everyday the same dough because it will lack the umph due to me being bored.   So take me with a grain of salt with my somewhere in the ballpark ever changing recipes and keep making those nice pies of  yours.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 16, 2014, 04:30:20 PM
Norma:  Boy you have a full plate right now.  I read your previous post.   Thanks for taking the time to post the results and the compliment on my dough recipe. If you and Steve said it was ok I take that as a big compliment!   NYC/NJ bake times were always in the 8-10 minute range and still are for the most part from what I see on my visits home.  The high temp coal ovens were not the norm in the 60-70's but ovens like mine were and still are.  When you would call in for a pie to go they always told you it would be ready in 15 minutes (standard answer unless they were swamped beyond words but very telling in the time factor - a couple minutes to make the pie, 10 minutes or so to bake it).  I don't get the interest you do with my pies but if anyone wants the info they can PM me.  Part of my trouble for doing things via the net is I change things in mid stream alot.  Today I lowered the oven temp on the top deck some because it was cooking too fast on the bottoms but yesterday they were fine.  My hydration in the dough today was a bit higher than normal and they puffed around the edges more than normal thus the burning.......  It is a fine line between getting it right and burning(charring). I don't like char(burnt) crust and most people here don't either.  With weather warming up I will be cutting back on yeast.  These things are too complicated to keep updating on the net- recipe/oven temp/hydration, etc.   So what I did today was today and tomorrow will tell me what to tweak.  I dig this about dough/yeast.  It is an ever changing thing and I like pushing the safety zone to max out flavors and that means on the fly adjustments.  Things like checking the dough  and seeing it needs to stay in the fridge to about 1/2 hour before baking or it might need to come out 2 hours before.  Things change as you well know in a commercial setting.  Home baking is a much easier game to get right on all the time.  I don't really want to find a perfect everyday the same dough because it will lack the umph due to me being bored.   So take me with a grain of salt with my somewhere in the ballpark ever changing recipes and keep making those nice pies of  yours.  Walter

Walter,

That is okay if I have a full plate now.  At least it keeps me out of trouble and busy. 

Your dough formulation made a very good pizza for Steve and me.  Better than ones I have tasted in NYC.  I also wanted to tell you that as soon as we got your pizza and the other dough pizza out of the oven customers wanted to purchase them first before the other pizzas I already had made.  Steve and I try to tell customers that those pies are only experiments for right now.  I really think the customers dug the looks of those two pizzas.  ;D We did give out a couple of slices for customers to taste though and they really liked them too. 

Since you are telling me those NYC/NJ bake times were always in the 8-10 minute range and still are for the norm for the most part I still wonder how NYC/NJ pizzas were so different from long ago.  What do you think happened to those pizzerias that the flavor went downhill?  I know it is a fine line between getting a pizza right and burning/charring.  I only like charring on certain types of pizzas and that really isn't the NY pizzas that I have liked.  My customers also don't like that charring on the rim crust or bottom crust.   

I don't think anyone is really interested in my pizzas either, but I can understand why you would want someone to PM you for the details of what you do.  Interesting to hear what happened with you pies today.  Thanks for telling me with warmer weather you will be cutting down on the yeast amount.  I know how things can change in a commercial setting.  The one batch of dough balls for yesterday were partly on the bottom of the prep fridge and they fermented quicker than the other dough balls did on the  other shelves.  I don't even know why that happened.  I used them up first though. 

Steve and I talked yesterday and we decided when I am finished being so busy we are going to do a pizza crawl in our county.  Steve is also busy with a aging parent now.  This are just some of the pizzerias we could visit in our area.  http://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurants-g1732735-c31-Lancaster_County_Pennsylvania.html (http://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurants-g1732735-c31-Lancaster_County_Pennsylvania.html)  There are so many pizzerias Steve and I never visited right near us.  I think it would be interesting to see what other pizzas taste like in our area.  Steve agrees.

Thanks for you nice comment about my pizzas!

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 16, 2014, 04:38:32 PM
These are just a few photos of my regular one day cold fermented pizzas from yesterday and a few more oven temperatures.  Some of the oven temperatures were higher though.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 16, 2014, 06:04:43 PM
Walter,

That is okay if I have a full plate now.  At least it keeps me out of trouble and busy. 

Your dough formulation made a very good pizza for Steve and me.  Better than ones I have tasted in NYC.  I also wanted to tell you that as soon as we got your pizza and the other dough pizza out of the oven customers wanted to purchase them first before the other pizzas I already had made.  Steve and I try to tell customers that those pies are only experiments for right now.  I really think the customers dug the looks of those two pizzas.  ;D We did give out a couple of slices for customers to taste though and they really liked them too. 

Since you are telling me those NYC/NJ bake times were always in the 8-10 minute range and still are for the norm for the most part I still wonder how NYC/NJ pizzas were so different from long ago.  What do you think happened to those pizzerias that the flavor went downhill?  I know it is a fine line between getting a pizza right and burning/charring.  I only like charring on certain types of pizzas and that really isn't the NY pizzas that I have liked.  My customers also don't like that charring on the rim crust or bottom crust.   

I don't think anyone is really interested in my pizzas either, but I can understand why you would want someone to PM you for the details of what you do.  Interesting to hear what happened with you pies today.  Thanks for telling me with warmer weather you will be cutting down on the yeast amount.  I know how things can change in a commercial setting.  The one batch of dough balls for yesterday were partly on the bottom of the prep fridge and they fermented quicker than the other dough balls did on the  other shelves.  I don't even know why that happened.  I used them up first though. 

Steve and I talked yesterday and we decided when I am finished being so busy we are going to do a pizza crawl in our county.  Steve is also busy with a aging parent now.  This are just some of the pizzerias we could visit in our area.  http://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurants-g1732735-c31-Lancaster_County_Pennsylvania.html (http://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurants-g1732735-c31-Lancaster_County_Pennsylvania.html)  There are so many pizzerias Steve and I never visited right near us.  I think it would be interesting to see what other pizzas taste like in our area.  Steve agrees.

Thanks for you nice comment about my pizzas!

Norma

Norma:  thanks again for that feedback on the dough and that it tasted better than NYC pizza. Sadly it is hard to find a good pie back home today.  I am hooked on the ice water even though it is a pain via another added step of chilling the water and straining it.  I may go back to my old method of putting a container of cold water in the fridge the day before.  That gets it plenty cold.  I think the decline in pizza has to do with the poor quality of ingredients, lack of skill in the employees, and greed.  Greed makes many go as cheap as possible.  Also pizza has been so yuppified that now one can get it with a million different combinations.  I think this has  hurt the art of making a great tasting simple cheese pie because you can mask it with all these fu fu toppings.  The really good shops I remember were family run and small.  Most are gone and/or gone to crap, but star tavern seems to keep it up.  All things were more local then as well, fresh, lacking preservatives, artifical ingredients, and such. 

My mother told me stories of her growing up in Harrison NJ in the 40-50's.  They had a bread shop on the corner that an Italian man owned.  He not only made the bread but also delivered it to the homes in the neighborhood 2x's a day until he got too old to walk so much and then people had to come and get it.  The same with the cheese shop. Much of it  made on site with what was probably local organic milks.  Her father was a butcher and all the meats were top shelf in their house.  He taught all his daughter about meat because any Italian woman needed to know about meat to satify her husband.  He also made lots of salami, sausage, smoked meats, specialty Italian meats, and smoked/dried fish in the garage and her mother made everything by hand.  They would lay out sheets on the extra bed with the pasta, the raviolis were hand made, bread was kneaded each day, etc...  My grandfather made his own wine and had a still that he made cordials with.  I remember as a young boy all the detail that went into making food in their house and I was put to work in the production.  I use to crank the meat grinder, do the casing, make pasta, knead dough, crush grapes, and it was fun.  This stuff just doesn't happen in most peoples day to day lives anymore.

That way of life carried over to the bakeries and pizzerias and the need to use quality stuff with a highly trained staff was a given.  Today things are heavily processed/preservatives added, the animals eat garbage, live in their own filth, are kept in too close of quaters, injected with chemicals, and are not happy.  My mother still talks about how they had happy animals in Italy.  They had nice pastures, stream, shade trees, they were loved by the family, and they returned good tasting products.   Pizzerias today rarely have a long time pizza master making the pies.   They are now mostly short trained and have no real connection to the product.  One can learn to make pizzas realitively fast nowadays with this internet teacher but to know the little things that make the product pop takes years and years to master.  People today want mastery instantly and tend to jump all over the map with thier mastery quests.  The old ways were you did one thing and did it really good.  Now people claim to be masters of so many things it would have taken 100 lifetimes doing it the old way.   

I don't want to start publishing my recipes because they change all the time.  Anyone that is really good has their stuff already and a beginner would be confused/frustrated by the lack of conistent results and not knowing what to do to correct it and I don't have the time or interest to deal with that via the net. There are lots of great consistent recipes here on the forum for people to have success with.  Come in the flesh and I love sharing but the net is a big headache for me with that.  The chain shops get perfect reproductions every time and many of the smaller shops sacrifice the top shelf product for lower quality and a  consistancy that matches the chains.  My pies vary from day to day. I would not want it any other way.  Today I was on my last dough box from Friday's dough.  It was near dead but I was short on dough and used it.  The pies were not up to my liking and when I pointed out to customers that the newer dough pies were better they said they could not see a difference(we make about 10 a day before the lunch rush to sell by the slice via reheat).  I love the ever changing nature of dough.  When I was talking with Anthony of Una Pizza in SF he told me his dough is forever changing too and many days he wished he could have captured the dough of the day before.........   Long ramble.  I bet you will be amazed at how bad the pizza is in your area compared to yours.  I am not interested in seeing any more pizzerias around here.  You could compete anywhere with your stuff.   Walter   
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 16, 2014, 07:04:28 PM
These are the photos of the other dough ball and final other pizza that had 62% hydration and 0.25% IDY for a 4-day cold ferment.  The other dough ball did develop more bubbles on top of the dough ball while it cold fermented from Monday until Tuesday.  I pinched  those bubbles shut when I saw them.  I guess that pinching those bubbles did change how the poppy seeds looked in the spacings before the other dough ball warmed up, so it might not be accurate really how much the other dough ball changed in the warm-up. 

The other dough ball was also very easy to open with not many fermentation bubbles in the skin.  Steve and I thought the other dough ball also made a very good NY pizza.  The rim crust was moist, there was decent rim crust browning and the bottom crust had good browning.
Norma,

Thank you for the additional detail on the other dough. Based on the poppy seed spacing shown in the photo you provided, the dough increased in volume by around 275%, or nearly a triple. For comparison purposes, the photo of the Walter dough that you showed in Reply 264 was a bit shy of a double (including the 4-day cold ferment and the tempering of the dough). However, that comparison is not a proper one since you reported that the Walter dough had a finished dough temperature of 66.6 degrees F and the other dough had a finished dough temperature of 77.4 degrees F. That is a sizable difference. Its significance is that the results suggest that you could use less yeast or a colder finished dough temperature, as Walter mentioned in an earlier post, or possibly a combination of both measures.

I'm not sure that I would make any drastic changes at this point. The hydration is a tricky matter because there is a range of workable values below which or above which you may not get the desired results. For example, you may not get the desired oven spring or you may not get the desired degree of crust coloration or the final taste you are after. With your Full Strength flour, I would think that a workable hydration range is perhaps somewhere between 58-63%. And that range has to be balanced against the temperature of your oven and the duration of the bake. As for the sugar, as you know, Tom Lehmann often suggests that one add some sugar (about 1-2%) to the dough where the cold fermentation window is to be over two days. At 0.85% sugar, I do not see a problem at this point. It could become a problem if you were to go back to a higher oven temperature or if you decided to materially increase the amount of sugar in order to get increased crust coloration. Of course, you could use pizza screens to slow down the bake but that is not an option that I would suggest. It is better to avoid having to add another step to your pizza making process.

In due course, I suspect that you will find the aspects of the pizzas that you like or do not like. Maybe then the dough formulation can be tweaked. One useful experiment that you might consider would be to make two dough balls that are identical in all respects but for the hydration. One would have 58% hydration and the other would have a hydration of 63%, using the Full Strength flour in both cases. The objective would be for you to see which you prefer better. Knowing that might allow you to decide in which direction to tweak the hydration value.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 16, 2014, 07:17:55 PM
Norma,

In my last post I meant to comment on the big bubbles. Given the amount of yeast and the temperatures of fermentation that you used, I am at a loss to understand how you got such large bubbles. The last time that I saw a really large bubble in my experience was several years ago (in late 2005) when I made a NY style pizza based on member Canadave's dough recipe. In that case, I used water on the fairly cold side to slow down the rate of fermentation (the finished dough temperature was under 70 degrees F), and the dough was cold fermented for a few days, but I estimated that the amount of yeast was around 0.76% IDY, as compared with the value of about 0.25% that I typically used at the time. You can see the bubbly dough and get a few laughs at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2238.msg19652#msg19652 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2238.msg19652#msg19652). You will also note in Reply 4 that followed that Dave said my dough looked like his dough using his recipe.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 16, 2014, 07:50:51 PM
Norma:  thanks again for that feedback on the dough and that it tasted better than NYC pizza. Sadly it is hard to find a good pie back home today.  I am hooked on the ice water even though it is a pain via another added step of chilling the water and straining it.  I may go back to my old method of putting a container of cold water in the fridge the day before.  That gets it plenty cold.  I think the decline in pizza has to do with the poor quality of ingredients, lack of skill in the employees, and greed.  Greed makes many go as cheap as possible.  Also pizza has been so yuppified that now one can get it with a million different combinations.  I think this has  hurt the art of making a great tasting simple cheese pie because you can mask it with all these fu fu toppings.  The really good shops I remember were family run and small.  Most are gone and/or gone to crap, but star tavern seems to keep it up.  All things were more local then as well, fresh, lacking preservatives, artifical ingredients, and such. 

My mother told me stories of her growing up in Harrison NJ in the 40-50's.  They had a bread shop on the corner that an Italian man owned.  He not only made the bread but also delivered it to the homes in the neighborhood 2x's a day until he got too old to walk so much and then people had to come and get it.  The same with the cheese shop. Much of it  made on site with what was probably local organic milks.  Her father was a butcher and all the meats were top shelf in their house.  He taught all his daughter about meat because any Italian woman needed to know about meat to satify her husband.  He also made lots of salami, sausage, smoked meats, specialty Italian meats, and smoked/dried fish in the garage and her mother made everything by hand.  They would lay out sheets on the extra bed with the pasta, the raviolis were hand made, bread was kneaded each day, etc...  My grandfather made his own wine and had a still that he made cordials with.  I remember as a young boy all the detail that went into making food in their house and I was put to work in the production.  I use to crank the meat grinder, do the casing, make pasta, knead dough, crush grapes, and it was fun.  This stuff just doesn't happen in most peoples day to day lives anymore.

That way of life carried over to the bakeries and pizzerias and the need to use quality stuff with a highly trained staff was a given.  Today things are heavily processed/preservatives added, the animals eat garbage, live in their own filth, are kept in too close of quaters, injected with chemicals, and are not happy.  My mother still talks about how they had happy animals in Italy.  They had nice pastures, stream, shade trees, they were loved by the family, and they returned good tasting products.   Pizzerias today rarely have a long time pizza master making the pies.   They are now mostly short trained and have no real connection to the product.  One can learn to make pizzas realitively fast nowadays with this internet teacher but to know the little things that make the product pop takes years and years to master.  People today want mastery instantly and tend to jump all over the map with thier mastery quests.  The old ways were you did one thing and did it really good.  Now people claim to be masters of so many things it would have taken 100 lifetimes doing it the old way.   

I don't want to start publishing my recipes because they change all the time.  Anyone that is really good has their stuff already and a beginner would be confused/frustrated by the lack of conistent results and not knowing what to do to correct it and I don't have the time or interest to deal with that via the net. There are lots of great consistent recipes here on the forum for people to have success with.  Come in the flesh and I love sharing but the net is a big headache for me with that.  The chain shops get perfect reproductions every time and many of the smaller shops sacrifice the top shelf product for lower quality and a  consistancy that matches the chains.  My pies vary from day to day. I would not want it any other way.  Today I was on my last dough box from Friday's dough.  It was near dead but I was short on dough and used it.  The pies were not up to my liking and when I pointed out to customers that the newer dough pies were better they said they could not see a difference(we make about 10 a day before the lunch rush to sell by the slice via reheat).  I love the ever changing nature of dough.  When I was talking with Anthony of Una Pizza in SF he told me his dough is forever changing too and many days he wished he could have captured the dough of the day before.........   Long ramble.  I bet you will be amazed at how bad the pizza is in your area compared to yours.  I am not interested in seeing any more pizzerias around here.  You could compete anywhere with your stuff.   Walter

Walter,

Thank you for your detailed reply why you think it is hard to find a good pie back home today.  I really liked the part of your post where you said the really good shops you recall were family run and small. 

I liked your stories that your mother told you too.  I am sure you learned a lot from your mother and other people in your family.  Your mother's father sounds like he knew a lot about meats and smoked/dried fish.  The wine making from your grandfather is very interesting.  I can now understand how their way of life carried over to bakeries and pizzerias and how they use quality products and a highly trained staff.  I also understand how people today want mastery fairly quick and it would take a 100 lifetimes to learn to do things the old ways.  My late husband worked for different butcher's (in his former life) and I learned a lot from him about meats.  He actually butchered animals and brought home fresh meats.   

I understand why you don't want to start publishing your recipes and how you would rather show someone in the flesh. 

I find your conversation with Anthony of Una Pizza in SF interesting.

I have learned a lot from you.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 16, 2014, 08:26:33 PM
Norma,

Thank you for the additional detail on the other dough. Based on the poppy seed spacing shown in the photo you provided, the dough increased in volume by around 275%, or nearly a triple. For comparison purposes, the photo of the Walter dough that you showed in Reply 264 was a bit shy of a double (including the 4-day cold ferment and the tempering of the dough). However, that comparison is not a proper one since you reported that the Walter dough had a finished dough temperature of 66.6 degrees F and the other dough had a finished dough temperature of 77.4 degrees F. That is a sizable difference. Its significance is that the results suggest that you could use less yeast or a colder finished dough temperature, as Walter mentioned in an earlier post, or possibly a combination of both measures.

I'm not sure that I would make any drastic changes at this point. The hydration is a tricky matter because there is a range of workable values below which or above which you may not get the desired results. For example, you may not get the desired oven spring or you may not get the desired degree of crust coloration or the final taste you are after. With your Full Strength flour, I would think that a workable hydration range is perhaps somewhere between 58-63%. And that range has to be balanced against the temperature of your oven and the duration of the bake. As for the sugar, as you know, Tom Lehmann often suggests that one add some sugar (about 1-2%) to the dough where the cold fermentation window is to be over two days. At 0.85% sugar, I do not see a problem at this point. It could become a problem if you were to go back to a higher oven temperature or if you decided to materially increase the amount of sugar in order to get increased crust coloration. Of course, you could use pizza screens to slow down the bake but that is not an option that I would suggest. It is better to avoid having to add another step to your pizza making process.

In due course, I suspect that you will find the aspects of the pizzas that you like or do not like. Maybe then the dough formulation can be tweaked. One useful experiment that you might consider would be to make two dough balls that are identical in all respects but for the hydration. One would have 58% hydration and the other would have a hydration of 63%, using the Full Strength flour in both cases. The objective would be for you to see which you prefer better. Knowing that might allow you to decide in which direction to tweak the hydration value.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for doing the calculations for how much both doughs increased in volume when using the poppy seed trick and explaining how that comparison is not a proper one.  I can understand the sizeable difference and it significance. 

Interesting that you don't think I should not make any drastic changes at this point.  I did not really think about the hydration and oven spring.  I don't plan to make any oven temperatures changes at this point in time.

I forgot to mention this, but Steve and I thought Walter's dough made a little bit of a chewier pizza in the crust rim, but Walter's slice stayed crisper after the reheat (not too long after Walter's whole pizza was sliced).  I don't know if you know how to tweak those parts so both parts could be interchanged.  We really liked the both slices though.  I still have an extra slice of Walter's to reheat tonight and also one extra slice from the other dough.  I will see how both slices taste in the reheat and what textures there are. 

I am not sure which formulation I should use the 58% hydration and the 63% hydration for. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 16, 2014, 08:36:14 PM
Norma,

In my last post I meant to comment on the big bubbles. Given the amount of yeast and the temperatures of fermentation that you used, I am at a loss to understand how you got such large bubbles. The last time that I saw a really large bubble in my experience was several years ago (in late 2005) when I made a NY style pizza based on member Canadave's dough recipe. In that case, I used water on the fairly cold side to slow down the rate of fermentation (the finished dough temperature was under 70 degrees F), and the dough was cold fermented for a few days, but I estimated that the amount of yeast was around 0.76% IDY, as compared with the value of about 0.25% that I typically used at the time. You can see the bubbly dough and get a few laughs at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2238.msg19652#msg19652 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2238.msg19652#msg19652). You will also note in Reply 4 that followed that Dave said my dough looked like his dough using his recipe.

Peter

Peter,

Since you commented on the big bubbles and showed me your post, what do you think I should do about about the IDY amount and about the final dough temperature?  I really don't know what would happen with a bigger batch of dough, but would tend to think that I could get bigger bubbles since the dough would take time to divide, scale, ball and oil.  Warmer weather is coming soon at market where I make the dough.  I know in the warmer weather I have to use less IDY just like Walter also does, or my dough balls will ferment too fast even in a one day cold ferment.

I did get a laugh at looking at your dough ball.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 16, 2014, 08:57:20 PM
I forgot to mention this, but Steve and I thought Walter's dough made a little bit of a chewier pizza in the crust rim, but Walter's slice stayed crisper after the reheat (not too long after Walter's whole pizza was sliced).  I don't know if you know how to tweak those parts so both parts could be interchanged.  We really liked the both slices though.  I still have an extra slice of Walter's to reheat tonight and also one extra slice from the other dough.  I will see how both slices taste in the reheat and what textures there are. 

I am not sure which formulation I should use the 58% hydration and the 63% hydration for. 

Norma
Norma,

It is quite possible that the pizza crust made from the other dough was not as chewy or crispy because of the addition of sugar. Sugar is a hygroscopic substance (it takes up and retains water from its surroundings) so there will be more moisture in the finished crust. That, in effect, tenderizes the crust and lengthens its shelf life. A crust without sugar, or without oil, or both, will have a short shelf life. That is why a classic French baguette has to be eaten soon after baking. The next day, it will be too dry to be satisfying.

I am not sure what features you would like to be interchangeable. Can you clarify what you mean?

As for a dough formulation to use to conduct a hydration experiment, you could use either Walter's dough or the other dough. That would make for a better comparison since you now have benchmarks against which to compare future efforts.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 16, 2014, 09:05:14 PM
Norma and Peter:  I learn a lot from you two bouncing all these ideas around.  I know learning never stops.  Thanks for all the time you 2 put into these things and I have learned much from your experiments.  Norma with the extreme heat you will be dealing with the ice water will help keep your dough temp down.  Have you thought about putting your scaled unballed dough balls on a tray that is on top of a tray that has ice in it to keep them from begining to ferment before you can ball them and put them in the fridge? I don't know how many balls you make but I figure with a 20qt mixer maybe 20-25 or so at most at a time? I don't know how fast you ball a full batch either.  So maybe all this is overkill.   I know this approach is radical but it sounds like you work in extreme heat during the summer months and I know east coast mornings can be 80 degrees and humid.  I thought a few full sheet tray lined with ice with another full sheet tray on top that the balls go on before they are finished and put in the cooler.  Then as you finish balling them put them back on the iced tray until you wrap them and put in the fridge.  That way the iced tray keeps the cool before and after balling.  Does that make sense??   I remember working in bakeries in Austin TX and how hot they were.  We had to keep our icing in bowls on top of bowls that were filled with ice.  When doing wedding cakes we had to work in short bursts and put the cake in the walk in to cool/harden and continue this cycle until it was done.  Also we had to really plan out our trips in and out of the cooler because it would warm up quickly in that heat. I always enjoy thinking on such things............ Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 16, 2014, 09:32:38 PM
This is how the reheat went on Walter's slice and the other doughs slice.  Both tasted very good and I liked both, but I think I would give the slight edge to the one with the 1.5% oil.  The reasoning of why I would give the slight edge to slice with the added oil is because the rim crust stayed moister on the reheat after a day.  Maybe other members tastes would not be like mine though, and the bake times and temperatures might have affected the results in the first bake.  Like always there are variables.

I also forgot to post that both pizzas originally were sliced into 8 slices.  Steve also took two slices home to reheat, but I don't know how his reheat went, or what he thought.

In the first photo Walter's slice is on the right.  In the second photo Walter's slice is also on the right.  In the third photo is bottom crust of the other doughs slice.  In the fourth photo is the bottom crust of Walter's slice.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 16, 2014, 09:44:43 PM
Norma,

It is quite possible that the pizza crust made from the other dough was not as chewy or crispy because of the addition of sugar. Sugar is a hygroscopic substance (it takes up and retains water from its surroundings) so there will be more moisture in the finished crust. That, in effect, tenderizes the crust and lengthens its shelf life. A crust without sugar, or without oil, or both, will have a short shelf life. That is why a classic French baguette has to be eaten soon after baking. The next day, it will be too dry to be satisfying.

I am not sure what features you would like to be interchangeable. Can you clarify what you mean?

As for a dough formulation to use to conduct a hydration experiment, you could use either Walter's dough or the other dough. That would make for a better comparison since you now have benchmarks against which to compare future efforts.

Peter

Peter,

The other dough was crispy on the bottom right after the bake and reheat.  I did not think about sugar adding more moisture in the finished crust though.  I never thought about about a crust without sugar, or without oil, or both will have a short shelf life.  I also never really thought about why a classic French baguette has to be eaten soon after baking.  I don't think I ever tasted a real classic French baguette to really know.

I think you will see that I gave the slight edge to the other dough slice since the rim crust stayed moister.

I guess the only other thing I wonder about is what value of IDY to use and what final dough temperature I should aim for.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 16, 2014, 09:57:21 PM
Norma,

I will address your yeast/temperature questions tomorrow but for now I just wanted to mention that oil also helps retain moisture in the dough, by slowing down its rate of evaporation. So, the oil also has a tenderizing effect and increases shelf life. It will also add a bit more flavor to the finished crust and add to the fat mouth feel.

Of course, shelf life is not a big issue with pizza that is primarily intended to be eaten shortly after being made. But shelf life does come into play for leftover slices. For a dough that does not have oil or sugar in it, that pretty much makes it imperative to use a higher hydration to keep the crust moisture high. And it may necessitate a faster bake because a high hydration dough opens up more quickly and acts much like an insulator during baking, causing the oven heat to be directed more to the bottom of the crust to brown and crisp it up rather than passing through the crust to drive moisture out of the sauce and to help cook the cheese and any toppings.

Peter

Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 16, 2014, 09:58:34 PM
Norma and Peter:  I learn a lot from you two bouncing all these ideas around.  I know learning never stops.  Thanks for all the time you 2 put into these things and I have learned much from your experiments.  Norma with the extreme heat you will be dealing with the ice water will help keep your dough temp down.  Have you thought about putting your scaled unballed dough balls on a tray that is on top of a tray that has ice in it to keep them from begining to ferment before you can ball them and put them in the fridge? I don't know how many balls you make but I figure with a 20qt mixer maybe 20-25 or so at most at a time? I don't know how fast you ball a full batch either.  So maybe all this is overkill.   I know this approach is radical but it sounds like you work in extreme heat during the summer months and I know east coast mornings can be 80 degrees and humid.  I thought a few full sheet tray lined with ice with another full sheet tray on top that the balls go on before they are finished and put in the cooler.  Then as you finish balling them put them back on the iced tray until you wrap them and put in the fridge.  That way the iced tray keeps the cool before and after balling.  Does that make sense??   I remember working in bakeries in Austin TX and how hot they were.  We had to keep our icing in bowls on top of bowls that were filled with ice.  When doing wedding cakes we had to work in short bursts and put the cake in the walk in to cool/harden and continue this cycle until it was done.  Also we had to really plan out our trips in and out of the cooler because it would warm up quickly in that heat. I always enjoy thinking on such things............ Walter

Walter,

Peter is the one that knows all of these things.  I am just the follower and learn from experiments.  :-D You are right that learning never stops. 

Thanks for telling me that in extreme heat the ice water will help keep the dough temp down.  I have not thought about putting the scaled unballed dough on top of a tray that has ice in it.  I had been making batches of dough for 20 dough balls at a time but cut that back to 18 most of the time.  I can divide, scale, ball, oil and bag in about 20 minutes or less.  Thanks for your thoughts and it does make sense to me.  I would rather not deal with a lot of ice though.  Your experiences in working in bakeries in Austin, TX sure are fascinating.  8)

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 16, 2014, 10:11:09 PM
I also never really thought about why a classic French baguette has to be eaten soon after baking.  I don't think I ever tasted a real classic French baguette to really know.
Norma,

I remember when I was in France (Paris and surrounding towns) many years ago that you couldn't just go into any neighborhood bakery any time of day and buy a baguette or something similar. Apparently it was very common for workers to stop at their local bakery on their way home from work and buy a baguette to take home to be eaten with their dinner or maybe with their wonderful cheeses and wines. But because the baguettes did not have any oil or sugar in them, they had to be baked to a high degree of freshness. I remember seeing people with baguettes (in paper bags) under their arms, apparently heading home or to meet with friends.

Of course, with a pizza you fortunately have cheese, sauce and toppings to make the entire pizza a pleasurable eating experience.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 16, 2014, 10:13:16 PM
Norma,

I will address your yeast/temperature questions tomorrow but for now I just wanted to mention that oil also helps retain moisture in the dough, by slowing down its rate of evaporation. So, the oil also has a tenderizing effect and increases shelf life. It will also add a bit more flavor to the finished crust and add to the fat mouth feel.

Of course, shelf life is not a big issue with pizza that is primarily intended to be eaten shortly after being made. But shelf life does come into play for leftover slices. For a dough that does not have oil or sugar in it, that pretty much makes it imperative to use a higher hydration to keep the crust moisture high. And it may necessitate a faster bake because a high hydration dough opens up more quickly and acts much like an insulator during baking, causing the oven heat to be directed more to the bottom of the crust to brown and crisp it up rather than passing through the crust to drive moisture out of the sauce and to cook the cheese and any toppings.

Peter

Peter,

I knew oil helps to retain moisture in the dough, but did not think about slowing down its rate of evaporation.  I did recall that oil adds a bit more flavor to the finished crust and does add to the mouth feel.

Since I am keeping slices in my heated cabinet I guess that adding oil does help those rim crusts retain some moisture.  Your explanation about a dough that does not have oil or sugar in it makes sense in all of what you posted.  Most of the times I can not put all of that together by myself without your explanations.

Norma 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 17, 2014, 06:31:18 AM
Norma/Peter:  Thanks for posting the detailed info and pictures.  You got me curious about oil now.  Could you tell me how much  is in your recipe Norma?  When I do use oil in breads I use EVOO.  Is that what you use?  I want to make my Monday batch today with oil (no school tomorrow Good Friday holiday).  Thanks. Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 17, 2014, 08:08:54 AM

You got me curious about oil now.  Could you tell me how much  is in your recipe Norma?  When I do use oil in breads I use EVOO.  Is that what you use?  I want to make my Monday batch today with oil (no school tomorrow Good Friday holiday).  Thanks. Walter


Walter,

I am using 1.5% Lira Olive Pomace oil in my formulations, but have used Fillippo Berio (yellow can) different times and liked both.  I really don't think it matters though if another brand of olive oil/pomace oil is used.  Good luck on your oil experiment!  I will be interested in what you think.   

This is a little off-topic, but I thought you might be interested in this Susquehanna Valley woman that created the 'Neat' meat substitute.  Where they produce the Neat meat substitute hires 80% blind or visually impaired employees.  http://www.wgal.com/pennsylvania-woman-creates-neat-meat-substitute/25512454 (http://www.wgal.com/pennsylvania-woman-creates-neat-meat-substitute/25512454)  Maybe Peter could reverse engineer Neat for our pizzas.  :-D The ingredients for Neat sound simple.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 17, 2014, 08:26:16 AM
Norma,

I remember when I was in France (Paris and surrounding towns) many years ago that you couldn't just go into any neighborhood bakery any time of day and buy a baguette or something similar. Apparently it was very common for workers to stop at their local bakery on their way home from work and buy a baguette to take home to be eaten with their dinner or maybe with their wonderful cheeses and wines. But because the baguettes did not have any oil or sugar in them, they had to be baked to a high degree of freshness. I remember seeing people with baguettes (in paper bags) under their arms, apparently heading home or to meet with friends.

Of course, with a pizza you fortunately have cheese, sauce and toppings to make the entire pizza a pleasurable eating experience.

Peter

Peter,

I heard France has wonderful baguettes or something similar.  I also heard how popular a baguette is over there.  The only baguettes I have purchased were just from a regular supermarket and I was not too thrilled with them.  Thank you for posting about your experiences when you were in Paris and surrounding towns.  That sounds simply delicious that the baguettes would be taken home to be eaten with their dinner or maybe with their wonderful cheeses and wines.  I never thought about a baguette being baked to a high degree of freshness.  I recall Professor Raymond Calvel's articles about baguettes but never got around to experimenting with any classic baguettes.

I know pizza has the sauce and cheese to help with the entire pizza eating experience.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 17, 2014, 10:06:05 AM
Norma,

To be sure we are on the same page, can you tell me what experiments you want to conduct next and also when and where you would make the dough? I believe the last time you made the two test dough balls at home sometime on last Saturday and you kept them in your home refrigerator until you brought them with you to market sometime on the following Monday, where they were kept refrigerated until you used them on Tuesday.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 17, 2014, 10:56:02 AM
Norma,

To be sure we are on the same page, can you tell me what experiments you want to conduct next and also when and where you would make the dough? I believe the last time you made the two test dough balls at home sometime on last Saturday and you kept them in your home refrigerator until you brought them with you to market sometime on the following Monday, where they were kept refrigerated until you used them on Tuesday.

Peter

Peter,

I want to conduct the two experiments using the other dough with 62% hydration and 58% hydration. I know you mentioned to try 58% hydration and 63% hydration at Reply 279 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg312523#msg312523 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg312523#msg312523) but don't you think since I normally like 62% hydration that wouldn't be a better number to stick with?  I also want to keep using 1.75% Morton's Kosher Salt, 1.5% oil and 0.85% sugar. 

I did mix the experimental doughs on Friday evening last week and kept them in my home refrigerator until I took them to market on Monday, and yes they were then cold fermented at market until I used them on Tuesday.  I want to mix the two experimental dough at home again until I can see if those dough balls performed well.  I would mix at market, but then I would have to mix probably 5 dough ball batches for the Hobart to mix properly.

If you have any other ideas for me to try let me know, and if you think the formulation ingredients need to be changed that is okay.   

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 17, 2014, 01:44:14 PM
I want to conduct the two experiments using the other dough with 62% hydration and 58% hydration. I know you mentioned to try 58% hydration and 63% hydration at Reply 279 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg312523#msg312523 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg312523#msg312523) but don't you think since I normally like 62% hydration that wouldn't be a better number to stick with?  I also want to keep using 1.75% Morton's Kosher Salt, 1.5% oil and 0.85% sugar. 

I did mix the experimental doughs on Friday evening last week and kept them in my home refrigerator until I took them to market on Monday, and yes they were then cold fermented at market until I used them on Tuesday.  I want to mix the two experimental dough at home again until I can see if those dough balls performed well.  I would mix at market, but then I would have to mix probably 5 dough ball batches for the Hobart to mix properly.

If you have any other ideas for me to try let me know, and if you think the formulation ingredients need to be changed that is okay.   

Norma
Norma,

After rethinking the hydration matter, I am inclined to agree with you and that it is perhaps better to stick with your current formulation. My original thinking was that a lower hydration dough might be easier for you to handle, and would allow for tossing and spinning the skin, and might even lead to a smaller rim because it wouldn't expand as fast or as much. But a side effect of using the lower hydration value would be a slower fermentation rate. To compensate for that would require making adjustments to the rest of the formulation ingredients or the fermentation temperature, or possibly even both. There is no point in opening up that can of worms at this point.

That leaves us with the issues of the amount of yeast to use and the fermentation temperatures and rate. In my experience, most people, including professionals, seem to prefer adjusting the amount of yeast rather than the water temperature needed to achieve an optimum finished dough temperature. I guess it is just easier to play around with yeast quantities than trying to get the water temperature just right. One of the risks of doing this, especially when one's instincts say to lower the amount of yeast, is that the dough may not ferment enough and you can end up with a flat, dense crust. One way to adjust for this is to give the dough balls some bench time at room temperature to get the fermentation process going before refrigerating. Even someone like Papa John's, which uses a small amount of yeast to make dough balls that can last up to eight days of cold fermentation, does this. Even then, the dough won't be usable until about the third day (the PJ window is about 3-8 days).

Arguably, the better way to go is not to strive for a very low amount of yeast to extend the fermentation time but rather to strive for the desired optimum finished dough temperature. Normally, that would be around 80-85 degrees F for a commercial setting using a commercial cooler, and around 75-80 degrees F for a home setting where a standard, less efficient refrigerator is used. However, for a particularly long cold fermentation period, a viable option is to use an even lower finished dough temperature than the ranges mentioned above. That is what Walter has been doing. You can read more about some of the issues involved in the yeast quantity/fermentation temperature debate in these two PMQ Think Tank posts by Tom Lehmann:

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/tom-anyone-help-for-crispier-pizza.6069/#post-37872 (http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/tom-anyone-help-for-crispier-pizza.6069/#post-37872) (you will perhaps want to read the rest of the thread for background purposes)

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/struggling-with-my-dough-tom-or-anyone.3163/page-2#post-17715 (http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/struggling-with-my-dough-tom-or-anyone.3163/page-2#post-17715)

As you can see from the above PMQTT posts, the amount of yeast to use and the temperatures to use is a rather delicate balancing act. And there can be times where, even after following all of the rules, the best option might be to adjust the amount of yeast, maybe even along with the finished dough temperature. I have done this many times myself, usually to adjust for seasonal changes like going from really warm weather to colder weather. Within a particular season, I try to leave the yeast quantity alone and to use a water temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature in the range of 75-80 degrees F.

In your case, I think I would stick with your current dough formulation but strive for a lower finished dough temperature, much as you did with the Walter dough. This means using a lower temperature water. Based on your results, we can assess whether additional changes should be made.

Peter

Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 17, 2014, 01:47:37 PM
Walter,

I am using 1.5% Lira Olive Pomace oil in my formulations, but have used Fillippo Berio (yellow can) different times and liked both.  I really don't think it matters though if another brand of olive oil/pomace oil is used.  Good luck on your oil experiment!  I will be interested in what you think.   

This is a little off-topic, but I thought you might be interested in this Susquehanna Valley woman that created the 'Neat' meat substitute.  Where they produce the Neat meat substitute hires 80% blind or visually impaired employees.  http://www.wgal.com/pennsylvania-woman-creates-neat-meat-substitute/25512454 (http://www.wgal.com/pennsylvania-woman-creates-neat-meat-substitute/25512454)  Maybe Peter could reverse engineer Neat for our pizzas.  :-D The ingredients for Neat sound simple.

Norma

Thanks Norma.  I made 20 dough balls for Monday with 1.5% EVOO(only oil I have).   I will check that link over the weekend-thanks.  I lived in Brussels for 2.5 years with my band.  I got to know the corner bread store owner who was French and grew up outside Paris.  His breads were killer.  I use to sit in the back of his shop as he made bread and sang my music.  He dug my music and I learned much about bread from him.  Like my mother told me when she grew up, this guy did the same thing with making 2 runs of bread a day and they sold out before they were an hour on the shelf.   Much of  my pizza dough making is influenced by breadmaking.   That is why I have shyed away from oil.  But you got me curious. I will let you know how it works.  I cut my yeast back, used ice water, and  ended up with a 66 dgree final dough.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 17, 2014, 09:00:42 PM
Norma,

After rethinking the hydration matter, I am inclined to agree with you and that it is perhaps better to stick with your current formulation. My original thinking was that a lower hydration dough might be easier for you to handle, and would allow for tossing and spinning the skin, and might even lead to a smaller rim because it wouldn't expand as fast or as much. But a side effect of using the lower hydration value would be a slower fermentation rate. To compensate for that would require making adjustments to the rest of the formulation ingredients or the fermentation temperature, or possibly even both. There is no point in opening up that can of worms at this point.

That leaves us with the issues of the amount of yeast to use and the fermentation temperatures and rate. In my experience, most people, including professionals, seem to prefer adjusting the amount of yeast rather than the water temperature needed to achieve an optimum finished dough temperature. I guess it is just easier to play around with yeast quantities than trying to get the water temperature just right. One of the risks of doing this, especially when one's instincts say to lower the amount of yeast, is that the dough may not ferment enough and you can end up with a flat, dense crust. One way to adjust for this is to give the dough balls some bench time at room temperature to get the fermentation process going before refrigerating. Even someone like Papa John's, which uses a small amount of yeast to make dough balls that can last up to eight days of cold fermentation, does this. Even then, the dough won't be usable until about the third day (the PJ window is about 3-8 days).

Arguably, the better way to go is not to strive for a very low amount of yeast to extend the fermentation time but rather to strive for the desired optimum finished dough temperature. Normally, that would be around 80-85 degrees F for a commercial setting using a commercial cooler, and around 75-80 degrees F for a home setting where a standard, less efficient refrigerator is used. However, for a particularly long cold fermentation period, a viable option is to use an even lower finished dough temperature than the ranges mentioned above. That is what Walter has been doing. You can read more about some of the issues involved in the yeast quantity/fermentation temperature debate in these two PMQ Think Tank posts by Tom Lehmann:

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/tom-anyone-help-for-crispier-pizza.6069/#post-37872 (http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/tom-anyone-help-for-crispier-pizza.6069/#post-37872) (you will perhaps want to read the rest of the thread for background purposes)

http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/struggling-with-my-dough-tom-or-anyone.3163/page-2#post-17715 (http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/struggling-with-my-dough-tom-or-anyone.3163/page-2#post-17715)

As you can see from the above PMQTT posts, the amount of yeast to use and the temperatures to use is a rather delicate balancing act. And there can be times where, even after following all of the rules, the best option might be to adjust the amount of yeast, maybe even along with the finished dough temperature. I have done this many times myself, usually to adjust for seasonal changes like going from really warm weather to colder weather. Within a particular season, I try to leave the yeast quantity alone and to use a water temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature in the range of 75-80 degrees F.

In your case, I think I would stick with your current dough formulation but strive for a lower finished dough temperature, much as you did with the Walter dough. This means using a lower temperature water. Based on your results, we can assess whether additional changes should be made.

Peter

I am not sure what to try now.  Thank you for those two links on PMQ Think Tank.  I thought the way Tom Lehmann responded in the first link he suggested trying a value of IDY at 0.375% and a final dough temperature of 80-85 degrees F, but wasn't that just for a one day cold ferment? 

I can see from the PMQTT posts, that the amount of yeast to use and the temperatures to use are a rather delicate balancing act. 

I don't know if you recall where I tried that 3-day cold ferment at Reply 1805 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg304434#msg304434 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg304434#msg304434) and only used the value of 0.25% IDY for that cold ferment.  The hydration was 1% higher and the salt value was 2%.  My final dough temperature was 72.3 degrees F.  It also was cold at market, so the when dividing, scaling and balling the dough would not have fermented much if any.  When I went to market on the following Monday some of the dough balls in the deli case already seemed like they were fermented enough.

I had rethought about making dough at home and maybe was going to try a 5 dough ball batch tomorrow, but not am not sure about that now.  I have to go to market earlier tomorrow because a repair man has to repair something at my mother's home tomorrow afternoon around 2:00 PM.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 17, 2014, 09:08:34 PM
Thanks Norma.  I made 20 dough balls for Monday with 1.5% EVOO(only oil I have).   I will check that link over the weekend-thanks.  I lived in Brussels for 2.5 years with my band.  I got to know the corner bread store owner who was French and grew up outside Paris.  His breads were killer.  I use to sit in the back of his shop as he made bread and sang my music.  He dug my music and I learned much about bread from him.  Like my mother told me when she grew up, this guy did the same thing with making 2 runs of bread a day and they sold out before they were an hour on the shelf.   Much of  my pizza dough making is influenced by breadmaking.   That is why I have shyed away from oil.  But you got me curious. I will let you know how it works.  I cut my yeast back, used ice water, and  ended up with a 66 dgree final dough.  Walter

Walter,

It will be interesting to hear what you think about the addition of 1.5% oil to your formulation.  As I posted when the pizza was fresh right out of the oven and reheated at market not a lot of differences could be tasted in the texture, crumb, or bottom crust.

You also got to experience those great breads from the corner bread store owner who was French and grew up outside of Paris.  I am jealous a little.  That was cool that he dug your music.  I understand why you know so much about bread and why much of your pizza dough is influenced by bread making.

Norma   
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 17, 2014, 09:29:35 PM
I am not sure what to try now.  Thank you for those two links on PMQ Think Tank.  I thought the way Tom Lehmann responded in the first link he suggested trying a value of IDY at 0.375% and a final dough temperature of 80-85 degrees F, but wasn't that just for a one day cold ferment? 

I can see from the PMQTT posts, that the amount of yeast to use and the temperatures to use are a rather delicate balancing act. 

I don't know if you recall where I tried that 3-day cold ferment at Reply 1805 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg304434#msg304434 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9068.msg304434#msg304434) and only used the value of 0.25% IDY for that cold ferment.  The hydration was 1% higher and the salt value was 2%.  My final dough temperature was 72.3 degrees F.  It also was cold at market, so the when dividing, scaling and balling the dough would not have fermented much if any.  When I went to market on the following Monday some of the dough balls in the deli case already seemed like they were fermented enough.

I had rethought about making dough at home and maybe was going to try a 5 dough ball batch tomorrow, but not am not sure about that now.  I have to go to market earlier tomorrow because a repair man has to repair something at my mother's home tomorrow afternoon around 2:00 PM.

Norma
Norma,

I cited the first PMQTT post principally to point out some of the problems that can arise if someone decides to reduce the amount of yeast rather than try to achieve the proper finished dough temperature. As for the 0.375% IDY, it is true that Tom mentioned a one day cold fermentation but if you look at his words more closely, you will see that he said that "the dough will be ready to use on the following day" (my emphasis). I don't think that he meant that the dough couldn't be used beyond that time. As an example of how Tom often discusses when a dough can be used, see the instructions for his NY style dough formulation at http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/New-York-Style-Pizza/record/57724/. (http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/New-York-Style-Pizza/record/57724/.) In that case, Tom says the "dough balls will be ready to use after about 12 hours of refrigeration. They can be used after up to 72 hours of refrigeration with good results". 

In your case, if you are concerned that you used too much IDY for your last test dough balls, then you can by all means reduce it, along with trying to achieve a lower finished dough temperature. This is something I once attempted with Tom's NY style dough formulation as I noted at Reply 280 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg17956#msg17956. (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg17956#msg17956.) In my case, however, I didn't go below a finished dough temperature of 75 degrees F.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 17, 2014, 10:03:22 PM
Norma,

I cited the first PMQTT post principally to point out some of the problems that can arise if someone decides to reduce the amount of yeast rather than try to achieve the proper finished dough temperature. As for the 0.375% IDY, it is true that Tom mentioned a one day cold fermentation but if you look at his words more closely, you will see that he said that "the dough will be ready to use on the following day" (my emphasis). I don't think that he meant that the dough couldn't be used beyond that time. As an example of how Tom often discusses when a dough can be used, see the instructions for his NY style dough formulation at http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/New-York-Style-Pizza/record/57724/. (http://www.pmq.com/Recipe-Bank/index.php/name/New-York-Style-Pizza/record/57724/.) In that case, Tom says the "dough balls will be ready to use after about 12 hours of refrigeration. They can be used after up to 72 hours of refrigeration with good results". 

In your case, if you are concerned that you used too much IDY for your last test dough balls, then you can by all means reduce it, along with trying to achieve a lower finished dough temperature. This is something I once attempted with Tom's NY style dough formulation as I noted at Reply 280 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg17956#msg17956. (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg17956#msg17956.) In my case, however, I didn't go below a finished dough temperature of 75 degrees F.

Peter

Peter,

I did read what can happen if someone decides to reduce the amount of yeast too much rather than trying to achieve the proper finished dough temperature. 

I have made a decent amount of dough balls at market and never could fully understand how Tom can say that dough balls can be used up to 72 hrs. of refrigeration with good results with the desired dough temperature he uses.  My dough balls would never last that long while cold fermenting.  I can watch in a days time at market and see how much the dough balls ferment as the day goes along.
 
I see you went down to 0.17% IDY with a final dough temperature of 75 degrees F with good results.  Thanks for your link to that post.

Norma 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 18, 2014, 08:08:55 AM
Peter/Norma:  I read your .17 yeast post this morning.  Yesterday I used .16 yeast I think (the paper is at work) with a 66 degree finished temp and followed Norma's oil amount.  I put them in the True refrigerator which runs really cold. I am thinking they will not rise too much.  I will use the balls on Monday and see how they work.  Using dough boxes with multi day ferments leads to the balls bleeding into each other if they are left in too long and or the yeastis to high/finished dough temp is too warm.  They still make great crusts but by the time I cut them apart and get them out they are more square than round and shaping them takes a bit more time and care.  Using a 24-48 hour cold rise is safe but when I push to 3 days or more it can lead to this but the crust flavor improves noticably over a 1-2 day.  This is one reason I use the ice water to keep them from rising too much as well as adding a different flavor to the dough. I can see why most places would go with a 1-2 day cold ferment for ease of use but I prefer to have the flavor over that and don't mind dealing with dough balls that bleed into each other.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2014, 08:56:38 AM
Peter/Norma:  I read your .17 yeast post this morning.  Yesterday I used .16 yeast I think (the paper is at work) with a 66 degree finished temp and followed Norma's oil amount.  I put them in the True refrigerator which runs really cold. I am thinking they will not rise too much.  I will use the balls on Monday and see how they work.  Using dough boxes with multi day ferments leads to the balls bleeding into each other if they are left in too long and or the yeastis to high/finished dough temp is too warm.  They still make great crusts but by the time I cut them apart and get them out they are more square than round and shaping them takes a bit more time and care.  Using a 24-48 hour cold rise is safe but when I push to 3 days or more it can lead to this but the crust flavor improves noticably over a 1-2 day.  This is one reason I use the ice water to keep them from rising too much as well as adding a different flavor to the dough. I can see why most places would go with a 1-2 day cold ferment for ease of use but I prefer to have the flavor over that and don't mind dealing with dough balls that bleed into each other.  Walter

Walter,

Thanks for telling us what IDY percentage you used.  I think I am going to use the 0.17 %, but am not sure at what final dough temperature I want to try and achieve.  I can understand using dough boxes with muti day ferments can lead to balls bleeding into each other if they are left in too long and the yeast amount is too high, or the finished dough temperature is too warm.  I wish I could do a 48 hr. cold ferment for market.  I don't know how trusty my prep fridge either.  On Tuesday when it was warmer and the doors were open and closed so much there was a little water that formed on the one side of the bottom of the prep fridge.  I don't know if that is from my floor being so uneven now or not, but a few dough balls were sitting in that water.  They were okay because they were in plastic bags, but that water concerns me.

I was trying to find articles last evening that support a lower dough temperature than 75 degrees F.  I think in the article by Dider Rosada the lowest final dough temperature was 73 degrees F.  http://www.bbga.org/files//bbga.19.2.techarticle.pdf (http://www.bbga.org/files//bbga.19.2.techarticle.pdf)  This link has been referenced many times here on the forum. http://www.theartisan.net/temperature_control_baking_1.htm (http://www.theartisan.net/temperature_control_baking_1.htm) Prof. Raymond Calvel says lower mixing temperatures of 71.6 to 73.4 degrees F might produce moderate oxidation and dough bleaching, and improve bread flavor.  I don't really understand how moderate oxidation and dough bleaching will improve bread flavor.  Maybe I even read that wrong. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2014, 09:24:51 AM
Walter,

I look forward to your results. But I would like to toss out another idea for your future consideration. And that is to add the IDY, in dry form, to your dough late in the dough making process and even as the last step in the dough making process. This is something I played around with quite a bit in order to extend the useful life of the dough. To extend the dough life even further, you can use ADY in dry form, that is, not rehydrated in warm water as is the recommended method. I expounded on the above matters with respect to IDY in Replies 2 and 3 starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33252#msg33252 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33252#msg33252), and also in the post at Reply 42 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3919.msg32928.html#msg32928 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3919.msg32928.html#msg32928) referenced in Reply 2 noted above. For the use of dry ADY in the dough, see Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg64308#msg64308 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg64308#msg64308).

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2014, 09:43:42 AM
I have made a decent amount of dough balls at market and never could fully understand how Tom can say that dough balls can be used up to 72 hrs. of refrigeration with good results with the desired dough temperature he uses.  My dough balls would never last that long while cold fermenting.  I can watch in a days time at market and see how much the dough balls ferment as the day goes along.
Norma,

It is possible that Tom assumes a somewhat generic commercial environment where commercial coolers are used, and also that the dough balls are cross stacked in dough boxes (or in some equivalent way with sheet trays/racks) to promote faster cooling and then down stacked. He also advocates making the dough balls within a 20-minute period (see item 9 in Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7499.msg64554;topicseen#msg64554 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7499.msg64554;topicseen#msg64554)) and then going directly into the cooler with the dough balls. I realize that using plastic storage bags as Tom recommended to you is a viable alternative to dough boxes or sheet trays but maybe that is not part of Tom's generic explanation and assumption given that the use of dough boxes and sheet trays are the most common situations.

You might pose your question to Tom directly to see what he says.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2014, 10:15:19 AM

But I would like to toss out another idea for your future consideration. And that is to add the IDY, in dry form, to your dough late in the dough making process and even as the last step in the dough making process. This is something I played around with quite a bit in order to extend the useful life of the dough. To extend the dough life even further, you can use ADY in dry form, that is, not rehydrated in warm water as is the recommended method. I expounded on the above matters with respect to IDY in Replies 2 and 3 starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33252#msg33252 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33252#msg33252), and also in the post at Reply 42 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3919.msg32928.html#msg32928 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3919.msg32928.html#msg32928) referenced in Reply 2 noted above. For the use of dry ADY in the dough, see Reply 48 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg64308#msg64308 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg64308#msg64308).

Peter

Peter,

I had thought of trying the addition of IDY late in the dough making process, but since you did not mention trying that to me that is why I didn't bring it up.  I know I tried late additions of IDY and ADY a few times.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 18, 2014, 10:18:05 AM
Peter:  Thanks for that tip of adding the IDY last.  I will try that next batch.  I have only used ADY in warm water and I fearthe cold water temps I use would keep it from working right.  I bought a bag of ADY last week and will give that a cold water run and see what happens.  Thanks!  Walter

Norma:  thanks for that info on Dr. Cavel.  I know that the cold water creates a taste I like in the crust.  Our True upright fridge is a great unit.  You have a 1 door prep table right?  What brand is it?  The 2 door prep table I got for a song  is a randell. If I get the rest of the year out of it I won't complain.  My next prep table will be most likely a new True or La Rosa. I am still figuring out what my final solution will be with my own shop.  My classroom is a wonderful lab to experiment in and I get paid a decent salary to do it.  Working in other peoples shops I was stuck with the gear/set up they used.  Some things I liked and some I didn't.  With my room I have a blank slate and can fill it anyway I want.  This is a great bonus and a big learning curve without the stress of it being my own business. 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2014, 10:22:17 AM
Norma,

It is possible that Tom assumes a somewhat generic commercial environment where commercial coolers are used, and also that the dough balls are cross stacked in dough boxes (or in some equivalent way with sheet trays/racks) to promote faster cooling and then down stacked. He also advocates making the dough balls within a 20-minute period (see item 9 in Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7499.msg64554;topicseen#msg64554 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7499.msg64554;topicseen#msg64554)) and then going directly into the cooler with the dough balls. I realize that using plastic storage bags as Tom recommended to you is a viable alternative to dough boxes or sheet trays but maybe that is not part of Tom's generic explanation and assumption given that the use of dough boxes and sheet trays are the most common situations.

You might pose your question to Tom directly to see what he says.

Peter

Peter,

You are right that Tom probably assumes a somewhat generic commercial environment where commercial coolers are used and also maybe a walk-in cooler that would keep the dough balls at a fairly constant temperature (before they would come out for the warm up). I also know that dough boxes or sheet trays are probably a better way to cool down dough balls.  Most of my problems are working with the equipment I have and also the varying different temperatures at market.

I might pose a question to Tom next week.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2014, 03:00:44 PM

Our True upright fridge is a great unit.  You have a 1 door prep table right?  What brand is it?  The 2 door prep table I got for a song  is a randell. If I get the rest of the year out of it I won't complain.  My next prep table will be most likely a new True or La Rosa. I am still figuring out what my final solution will be with my own shop.  My classroom is a wonderful lab to experiment in and I get paid a decent salary to do it.  Working in other peoples shops I was stuck with the gear/set up they used.  Some things I liked and some I didn't.  With my room I have a blank slate and can fill it anyway I want.  This is a great bonus and a big learning curve without the stress of it being my own business.


Walter,

I do have a one door prep fridge (photo below of the brand).  I hear the brands True and La Rosa are very good prep tables.  It is good you get to experiment and then will be able to figure out what you want for your own shop. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2014, 03:03:33 PM
A five dough ball batch was made this morning to be cold fermented for 4 days.  It can be seen in the photos the ambient temperature at market, the formulation used and the final dough temperature. 

Poppy seeds were placed on top of two dough balls and the other 3 dough balls were put into plastic bags. 

The thermometer was in the top part of the prep fridge and it was only turned on for an hour when that temperature was taken.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 19, 2014, 08:25:33 AM
I did not mention this in my last post, but noticed at market yesterday that when measuring out the IDY on my market scale that the IDY can vary pretty much for 0.01 lbs.  I don't normally notice this at market when measuring out IDY, but since I wanted to be as precise as I could for this experiment that is why I noticed.  At home when trying lower amounts of IDY, or other yeasts, I use my smaller kitchen scale which weighs ingredients out more precisely. 

I am not sure if what I did will give me the best results or not, but I weighed only until the scale showed 0.01 lbs.  At first the IDY seemed like a lot more when it was first weighed.  My scale at market does not weigh in grams.

I also did not note that I did not have any really cold water at market because I thought I was going to mix the dough/doughs at home.  When I first got to market I put a water jug in the deli case for the 5 dough ball batch.  That might not have been the best thing to do since my final dough temperature was really low.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 21, 2014, 11:43:05 AM
Thanks Norma.  I made 20 dough balls for Monday with 1.5% EVOO(only oil I have) .   I will check that link over the weekend-thanks.  I lived in Brussels for 2.5 years with my band.  I got to know the corner bread store owner who was French and grew up outside Paris.  His breads were killer.  I use to sit in the back of his shop as he made bread and sang my music.  He dug my music and I learned much about bread from him.  Like my mother told me when she grew up, this guy did the same thing with making 2 runs of bread a day and they sold out before they were an hour on the shelf.   Much of  my pizza dough making is influenced by breadmaking.   That is why I have shyed away from oil.  But you got me curious. I will let you know how it works.  I cut my yeast back, used ice water, and  ended up with a 66 dgree final dough.  Walter

Here are the results.  The dough balls opened easy as pie and tossed great- rose at room temp (about 75 for 2 hours).  They were black specked and .16 yeast.  There are some balls leftover and we will bake them tomorrow.   The crust was definetely chewier/moister. The flavor did not seem to be affected and it tasted like our non oil dough. It didn't have as much crunch on slicing and the rim did not rise as high as without oil.  The rims look higher than they are on the whole pie picture for some reason and the browning was darker than the picture depicts (this is always the case with my pictures for some reason).  Browning was the same as normal and plenty so I see no need to add sugar. Reheats were good too  I will keep the oil for now and see how it hits me as the days go bye..   Thanks for the much info Norma and Peter :)  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 21, 2014, 05:28:17 PM
Here are the results.  The dough balls opened easy as pie and tossed great- rose at room temp (about 75 for 2 hours).  They were black specked and .16 yeast.  There are some balls leftover and we will bake them tomorrow.   The crust was definetely chewier/moister. The flavor did not seem to be affected and it tasted like our non oil dough. It didn't have as much crunch on slicing and the rim did not rise as high as without oil.  The rims look higher than they are on the whole pie picture for some reason and the browning was darker than the picture depicts (this is always the case with my pictures for some reason).  Browning was the same as normal and plenty so I see no need to add sugar. Reheats were good too  I will keep the oil for now and see how it hits me as the days go bye..   Thanks for the much info Norma and Peter :)  Walter

Walter,

Interesting that you could notice that your crust was definitively chewer/moister with adding oil and your rim did not rise as much.  I think your rims crusts look very good on your photos.   Good to hear the reheats were good too.  That is a good idea to see how you like the addition of oil after awhile.  Your bottom crust browning looks very nice.
 
Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 21, 2014, 05:33:45 PM
From the time I arrived at market today I looked at the different temperatures in the top and bottom of the prep fridge to see how much the temperatures vary.  It can be seen on the photos what temperatures there were in the cycles the fridge went through while I was there.  Some of the temperatures I did not take photos of were right at 30 degrees F.  The ambient temperature inside market today can also be seen.  It was about 70 degrees F outside and I did have the one door open today that is right beside my stand.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 21, 2014, 05:36:55 PM
I measured the amount of yeast (0.01 lbs.) again today to see how much differences there would be when weighing 0.01 lbs. of IDY on the market scale.  It can be seen in the measuring spoon how much more yeast there was before the weight went up.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 21, 2014, 05:43:46 PM

I have no idea why but the spacing from doing the poppy seed trick were different on the two dough balls in plastic containers from the 3-day cold ferment.  The dough balls in the plastic containers were side by side on the same shelf.  I had used the better measuring tape on Friday and made sure I had (or least thought I had) the spacings on both of the dough balls at 1” apart.  I place both dough balls in the plastic containers in the top of the prep fridge after looking at them.  The 3 bagged dough balls were place directly on the side of a shelf in the bottom of the pizza prep fridge. 

I will see how all of the dough balls work out tomorrow with the 4-day cold ferment.  But with varying temperatures in my prep fridge, using a low amount of IDY 17% and also having a low dough temperature I do not think a 4-day cold ferment will work out at market.  I think I will have to give up on trying to do a cold ferment for longer than a day.

One other thing I wanted to note is that the dough balls in the plastic containers did have some speckling on them while the dough balls in the plastic bags did not have any speckles. 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 21, 2014, 05:46:49 PM

These were two frozen dough balls (that were partially defrosted) that were incorporated into a big batch of dough today.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 21, 2014, 06:57:26 PM
thanks Norma!  It sounds like you are best suited for the 1 day dough.  You like it and your customers do too.  That is all that matters.   I look forward to how your dough comes out tomorrow.  We have one of the Governor's staff coming out tomorrow morning to observe our program and talk to me on behalf of the Governor.  He is trying to get vocational education back in each high school like it use to be when we were going to school back in "the old day" :-D  I am going to send him back with some pizza, breads, and our baked goods.  It will be a busy day tomorrow with that and making 3,500 cookies for the district cafeterias to be served on Wed.  I was told last week all our cookies and bagels will have to be made with 100% whole wheat next year(means I will have to have our nutritional labels redone as well).  I found this flour that was developed for the new school law- healthy choice by conagra- that fits.  What a scam.  It cost almost $5 more a bag than the whole wheat and AP flours I have been using in combination for these products.  I know it will work for cookies but doubt it will make a bagel I would eat but it is work and as long as they are buying we will be making.   Imagine how many millions are being made on this - every public school in the USA will be buying products made with this stuff.  My mob friends were criminals but this is some high collar crime at its best!  Walter

http://www.conagramills.com/our_products/ultragrain.jsp (http://www.conagramills.com/our_products/ultragrain.jsp)
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 21, 2014, 08:22:37 PM
thanks Norma!  It sounds like you are best suited for the 1 day dough.  You like it and your customers do too.  That is all that matters.   I look forward to how your dough comes out tomorrow.  We have one of the Governor's staff coming out tomorrow morning to observe our program and talk to me on behalf of the Governor.  He is trying to get vocational education back in each high school like it use to be when we were going to school back in "the old day" :-D  I am going to send him back with some pizza, breads, and our baked goods.  It will be a busy day tomorrow with that and making 3,500 cookies for the district cafeterias to be served on Wed.  I was told last week all our cookies and bagels will have to be made with 100% whole wheat next year(means I will have to have our nutritional labels redone as well).  I found this flour that was developed for the new school law- healthy choice by conagra- that fits.  What a scam.  It cost almost $5 more a bag than the whole wheat and AP flours I have been using in combination for these products.  I know it will work for cookies but doubt it will make a bagel I would eat but it is work and as long as they are buying we will be making.   Imagine how many millions are being made on this - every public school in the USA will be buying products made with this stuff.  My mob friends were criminals but this is some high collar crime at its best!  Walter

http://www.conagramills.com/our_products/ultragrain.jsp (http://www.conagramills.com/our_products/ultragrain.jsp)

Walter,

I would have liked it better if I could use a 4-day cold fermented dough for market.  I liked the rim crust much better and also taste.  I think my prep fridge really is not accurate enough for a 4-day cold fermented dough.  I think that the dough balls in the plastic containers will develop bubbles on top when they are tempered tomorrow.

Good to hear one of the Governor’s staff is coming out tomorrow to observe your program and talk to you on behalf of the Governor.  It sure sounds like it will be a busy day tomorrow.  Wow, that 100% whole wheat next year for your cookies and bagels sounds tough to do. 

I tried a Ultragrain whole wheat and dark rye dough pizza at Reply 23 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=16823.msg164269#msg164269 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=16823.msg164269#msg164269)  and showed the flours at Reply 8 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=16823.msg163975#msg163975 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=16823.msg163975#msg163975)  You can read what Peter's posted about using the Ultragrain Hard Wheat product at Reply 11 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=16823.msg163987#msg163987 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=16823.msg163987#msg163987)   If I recall correctly November like to use the Ultragrain flours.  Another place I used a Ultragrain flour with another flour was at Reply 123 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14554.msg149080#msg149080 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14554.msg149080#msg149080)   If you are interested just search the word Ultragrain here on the forum.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 22, 2014, 10:43:17 PM
I don't have time to resize all the photos or do a proper write-up tonight, but the 4-day cold fermented dough balls and final pizzas turned out well today.  These are just a few of the photos.

The dough balls did not ferment much more until today.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 23, 2014, 06:05:08 AM
Norma:  I am glad to pies came out good and they look great too!  Thanks for the ultragrain links.  The cookies came out great with it considering I use applesauce, low butter, low eggs, in the recipe.  Now to try the bagels. I hold no hope for them in what I consider a bagel but the schools will buy them.   My pies came out great yesterday with the oil in the dough (6 days in fridge).  I saved one to try today as well.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 23, 2014, 07:57:00 AM
Norma:  I am glad to pies came out good and they look great too!  Thanks for the ultragrain links.  The cookies came out great with it considering I use applesauce, low butter, low eggs, in the recipe.  Now to try the bagels. I hold no hope for them in what I consider a bagel but the schools will buy them.   My pies came out great yesterday with the oil in the dough (6 days in fridge).  I saved one to try today as well.  Walter

Walter,

Thanks for your kind comments! 

Good to hear the cookies came out great with the Ultragrain flour with applesauce, low butter, and low eggs in the recipe.  ;D  I think you will be able to come up with something for the bagels if you try hard enough.  I had faith in you that you will do it.  Maybe you could pose a question to Tom Lehmann on how you might change the recipe for your bagels using the Ultragrain flour and what you could also use to keep your ingredients in line for the nutritional facts you need to stay in line with.  Don't forgot that Tom works at AIB and has a lot of knowledge about anything in the baking world, or has access to people that might know what to do.   

Great to hear your pies came out great yesterday with the oil in the dough and 6 days in the fridge.  8)  Good to hear you saved one to try today.  I would be interested in hearing how the 7 day dough turns out.  That is a long while that your dough balls can be cold fermented.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 23, 2014, 08:07:17 AM
Sorry the first photo is blurry, but I think it can be seen that the one dough ball fermented to about double until yesterday morning.  As always, the photos do not depict the true colors of the rim crust when taking a photo of whole pizzas.  The other dough ball (in the plastic container), did not ferment to double in size until yesterday morning.  The dough ball that did not double in size never doubled in size.  At 4:29 PM the other blurry photo was taken of the one dough ball with the poppy seeds.  I tried different ways of letting all five dough balls warm up and used some of them without much warm-up time (½ hr.).  All of them opened up very easily.  I tried different ways of opening them too and Steve and I thought it was interesting that some that were formed with a distinct rim to start with turned out different in the crust texture and taste of the crust.  We like the crusts best from the dough balls that were started with a distinct rim.  Those crusts that were different also tasted sweeter with that nutty flavor.  I never noticed anything like that before when tasting crusts from trying different forms of opening the dough balls.  Maybe it was just these 4-day cold fermented dough balls.  In the photos the ones with the pepperoni were the ones formed with a distinct rim first.  Those rim crusts were moister and crisper in the rim crust.

I don't know how the fermentation of the dough balls seemed to slow down from Monday until Tuesday, but that seemed to be the case.  I had thought the dough balls would have fermented more until Tuesday.  All of the dough balls performed well yesterday and never overfermented until I got to use them over the course of all day. 

I had a some more new customers yesterday.  One of those new customers was originally from the Philly area, and since have sold their home, and now are traveling all over the US in their RV.  They stay in Arizona over the winter and then travel the rest of the year.  The lady told me there are no good pizzerias in Arizona.  She told me that she thinks because the water in Arizona is so bad that is why she thinks there are no good pizzas in Arizona.  I said a pizzeria could use bottled water, or filtered water in Arizona. I asked her if she ever tried Bianco's, but she said she never heard of Bianco's.  The lady, her husband and son really liked the boardwalk style of pizzas and they came back in the late evening for another whole pizza.  They recalled Mack's pizza and they said my pizzas tasted like Mack's pizza.  I had other different customers that tell me my pizzas tasted like Mack's, Manco & Manco, or Grotto's pizzas yesterday and they were new customers.  There was a young man that wanted to purchase a dough ball near the end of yesterday.  I thought I had enough dough balls left to sell him one (from a regular batch of dough balls).  He said he had tried some frozen dough balls from supermarkets, but did not like them.  I asked him if he knew how to open a dough ball and he said no.  I quickly showed him how to open a dough ball into a skin.  He said I made it look so easy.  I said it is not that hard to do if you have good dough balls to start out with.  I asked him how he would bake the pizza and if he had a pizza stone.  He said he did have a pizza stone and would bake at about 350 degrees F.  I told him to crank-up his oven to 550 degrees F if it goes that high in temperature and that also would give him a better pizza.  When he purchased the dough ball he gave me a 2.00 tip for showing him how to open a dough ball and for giving him a few tips about baking a pizza.  :-D 

Norma 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 23, 2014, 08:10:29 AM
Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 23, 2014, 08:13:50 AM
Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 23, 2014, 08:15:38 AM
There were no bubbles on top of the dough balls yesterday that were in the plastic containers.   ;D

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 23, 2014, 09:22:08 AM
Norma,

Those are some fine looking pizzas. I scratched my head the other day when you said that you didn't think the dough balls would last four days, since I didn't see anything to suggest a problem with overfermentation, but, then again, I don't know the peculiarities of your refrigeration equipment, and your operating setting, like you do. But it is good to hear that everything turned out well.

I think that you and Walter are demonstrating how small amounts of yeast and keeping things really cold can have a material and positive effect on results. It has also been interesting to see Walter's pizzas evolve with the series of experiments he has been conducting. Hopefully, he will at some point try adding the IDY late in the dough making process. That is the "third leg" of the stool that I discussed a while back in Reply 188 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg311177#msg311177 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg311177#msg311177). In my experiments, I thought that the combination of the three factors--low temperatures, small amounts of yeast (although the principles seem also to work with larger, but still modest, amounts of yeast), and the addition of the yeast late in the dough making process--contributed to the sweetness of the finished crust, as well as other positive crust attributes. Those principles also seemed to play out well even at high hydration values that cause the dough to ferment faster than at lower hydration values.

It is hard to tell from the photos but can you tell me what size the pizzas were?

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 23, 2014, 09:59:10 AM
Norma,

Those are some fine looking pizzas. I scratched my head the other day when you said that you didn't think the dough balls would last four days, since I didn't see anything to suggest a problem with overfermentation, but, then again, I don't know the peculiarities of your refrigeration equipment, and your operating setting, like you do. But it is good to hear that everything turned out well.

I think that you and Walter are demonstrating how small amounts of yeast and keeping things really cold can have a material and positive effect on results. It has also been interesting to see Walter's pizzas evolve with the series of experiments he has been conducting. Hopefully, he will at some point try adding the IDY late in the dough making process. That is the "third leg" of the stool that I discussed a while back in Reply 188 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg311177#msg311177 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg311177#msg311177). In my experiments, I thought that the combination of the three factors--low temperatures, small amounts of yeast (although the principles seem also to work with larger, but still modest, amounts of yeast), and the addition of the yeast late in the dough making process--contributed to the sweetness of the finished crust, as well as other positive crust attributes. Those principles also seemed to play out well even at high hydration values that cause the dough to ferment faster than at lower hydration values.

It is hard to tell from the photos but can you tell me what size the pizzas were?

Peter

Peter,

Thanks!  Since I could not watch how the dough balls fermented from Friday to Monday, that is why I thought they might ferment too much until Tuesday.  If you recall last week those experimental dough balls developed bubbles on the top.  When I saw how much my prep fridges cycles in temperatures I also thought my prep fridge might not be optimal enough for cold fermenting for 4 days. 

I took the lead from Walter in trying really low dough temperatures and also from your experiments.  Thanks for your link at Reply 188 in all that you said and the links you posted therein.  I also have enjoyed watching Walter's pizza evolve and the experiments he has been doing.  Do you want me to try the late addition of IDY or ADY in my next experimental 4 day cold fermented dough batch of 5 dough balls?  I thought I might be ready to make a bigger batch of dough on Friday to test on Tuesday to see if I get the same results as I did yesterday, but I have a lot of things to get done at my mother's home until Saturday.  My brother is leaving on Sunday and everything that needs to be moved has to be done later today (taken to the Auction House) and some by Saturday night (moved into storage).  I hope my back makes it through all of the moving.  :-D  That plus I have to pick up bags of flour and a big block of cheese until Friday.   

The pizzas were supposed to be 16.5”, but as can be seen most of them were about 17.5”, or a little larger.  The dough balls open so easily that it is hard to get the exact right size of skin.  There was no retracting of the skin when opening.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 23, 2014, 10:32:08 AM
Norma,

It is up to you as to whether you should also try the late IDY addition. I had mentioned that more in the context of Walter's situation since he has already been able in his setting and work cycle to get 6 days of cold fermentation out of his dough, and maybe even another day or so. In reality, maybe the late addition of IDY won't be of much benefit to Walter if the window of fermentation is pushed out too far, which is what the late addition of IDY is prone to do. But it might be worth testing in a commercial setting to see if it has a place there. But, as I have mentioned before, I suspect it is the late addition of yeast, along with low dough temperatures, that allows Papa John's to make dough balls that can last from about 3-8 days in its stores. Domino's also has a commissary business model and while it dissolves the yeast (I suspect a fair amount of it) in water before adding the rest of the dough ingredients, it keeps the dough balls at low temperatures at pretty much all points along the way. That allows them to get up to about six days of cold fermentation but some stores have reported getting up to nine days. Clearly, that is not something that lends itself, at least not easily, to your particular one-day-a-week operation.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 23, 2014, 02:16:27 PM
Pies look great Norma!  I have given up on using my prep fridge for more than 24 hour dough.  It just doesn't stay cold enough in these warmer days.  Our kitchen has been in the upper 70's most of the day lately.   Here is one of the leftover dough balls - 7 days- with oil in it.  It worked beautiful and I bet I could get another day or 2 out of this recipe if need be.  The flavor was great, the taste great too.  We had a big rush today and I had to use some balls that were not meant to be used till tomorrow at the earliest. I didn't have time to warm them up.  Straight from the fridge to oven.  They came out great.  I find there is more bubbling with doughes in between out of the fridge and not warmed some.  Straight out my balls do great minus a little oven spring but the taste/texture is fine.  My days in pizza were same day doughes and I never thought the cold dough (mid 30's at least) would perform so well right into the oven.  It is nice having that back up when people walk in from the community and want pies without ordering ahead of time.  Much thanks to you and Peter.  I learn alot following your adventures :)  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 23, 2014, 05:29:01 PM
Norma,

It is up to you as to whether you should also try the late IDY addition. I had mentioned that more in the context of Walter's situation since he has already been able in his setting and work cycle to get 6 days of cold fermentation out of his dough, and maybe even another day or so. In reality, maybe the late addition of IDY won't be of much benefit to Walter if the window of fermentation is pushed out too far, which is what the late addition of IDY is prone to do. But it might be worth testing in a commercial setting to see if it has a place there. But, as I have mentioned before, I suspect it is the late addition of yeast, along with low dough temperatures, that allows Papa John's to make dough balls that can last from about 3-8 days in its stores. Domino's also has a commissary business model and while it dissolves the yeast (I suspect a fair amount of it) in water before adding the rest of the dough ingredients, it keeps the dough balls at low temperatures at pretty much all points along the way. That allows them to get up to about six days of cold fermentation but some stores have reported getting up to nine days. Clearly, that is not something that lends itself, at least not easily, to your particular one-day-a-week operation.

Peter

Peter,

I would like to try a late addition of IDY before I start doing a cold fermented 4-day dough for market all the time.  I would be interested in seeing if the flavor of the crust is better, or about the same, using the late addition of IDY.  How much IDY would you advised me to use and what final dough temperature should I try to achieve?  If it is too much trouble for you to figure out what I should try that is okay.  At least I know the lower final dough temperature and the low amount of IDY do work for market.

Thanks for your thoughts about Papa John's dough and also Domino's dough and what they do. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 23, 2014, 05:34:04 PM
Pies look great Norma!  I have given up on using my prep fridge for more than 24 hour dough.  It just doesn't stay cold enough in these warmer days.  Our kitchen has been in the upper 70's most of the day lately.   Here is one of the leftover dough balls - 7 days- with oil in it.  It worked beautiful and I bet I could get another day or 2 out of this recipe if need be.  The flavor was great, the taste great too.  We had a big rush today and I had to use some balls that were not meant to be used till tomorrow at the earliest. I didn't have time to warm them up.  Straight from the fridge to oven.  They came out great.  I find there is more bubbling with doughes in between out of the fridge and not warmed some.  Straight out my balls do great minus a little oven spring but the taste/texture is fine.  My days in pizza were same day doughes and I never thought the cold dough (mid 30's at least) would perform so well right into the oven.  It is nice having that back up when people walk in from the community and want pies without ordering ahead of time.  Much thanks to you and Peter.  I learn alot following your adventures :)  Walter

Walter,

Sorry you had to give up on using your prep fridge for more than a 24 hour dough.  Your leftover dough ball (with the oil in it) sure baked well into a pizza.  I find it interesting that the dough balls don't have to be warmed up.  I also noticed that yesterday.  Thanks for helping me understand more about dough from what you have done. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 23, 2014, 06:01:54 PM
I would like to try a late addition of IDY before I start doing a cold fermented 4-day dough for market all the time.  I would be interested in seeing if the flavor of the crust is better, or about the same, using the late addition of IDY.  How much IDY would you advised me to use and what final dough temperature should I try to achieve?  If it is too much trouble for you to figure out what I should try that is okay.  At least I know the lower final dough temperature and the low amount of IDY do work for market.
Norma,

It's no trouble. Since the objective of the late addition of the IDY is to extend the cold fermentation window and produce more byproducts of fermentation, I would use the same amount of IDY as you used for your last dough and try to achieve the same finished dough temperature as before. What you might consider doing is to make the dough tomorrow (presumably at home) so that the dough gets about five days of cold fermentation between tomorrow and next Tuesday.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 23, 2014, 07:04:31 PM
Norma:  Somehow I missed your photos and story from this morning.  It is great when people really get into talking pizza with you like the RV people.  You make it look easy because you are good at what  you do.  I wonder where you will end up with your dough management.  I doubt I will ask Tom if I can get a decent bagel with ultragrain.   Decent is a relevant word.  To be honest a real bagel has to be made with bleached/bromated/high protien flour, and malt syrup.  People out here are clueless to this so I can give them most anything and it will sell.  Since I am tied to using whole wheat flour, no bromate, I will never get a bagel I would eat but  know I can make something that they will like.  It is like trying to make a Ferrari out of a VW bug. No way Jose can that be done and IMO using the flour I have is the same scenario.   My goal is to get work and this will get us plenty.  Bagels for non school customers are made traditionally with the good stuff/bagel boards/cooked direct on stones but we don't get many orders which is ok because we have more than enough diversity with products.  I wish I could focus more on just one or 2 things but the market isn't there to keep 18 kids working all day.  One of the things I look forward to with opening my own shop would be doing just pizza and maybe some bread, all my way.  Carrying 18 people all day with having enough work makes for a lot of long days of making too many products for my liking.  But it is for the cause and for now I am ok with it overall.  thanks.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 23, 2014, 07:23:36 PM
Norma,

It's no trouble. Since the objective of the late addition of the IDY is to extend the cold fermentation window and produce more byproducts of fermentation, I would use the same amount of IDY as you used for your last dough and try to achieve the same finished dough temperature as before. What you might consider doing is to make the dough tomorrow (presumably at home) so that the dough gets about five days of cold fermentation between tomorrow and next Tuesday.

Peter

Peter,

I understand what the main objective is of the late addition of the IDY since you mentioned it is to extend the cold fermentation window and produce more byproducts of fermentation.  I will try to make a dough ball at home tomorrow and then take it to market on Friday so the dough ball gets about five days of cold fermentation. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 23, 2014, 07:38:56 PM
Norma:  Somehow I missed your photos and story from this morning.  It is great when people really get into talking pizza with you like the RV people.  You make it look easy because you are good at what  you do.  I wonder where you will end up with your dough management.  I doubt I will ask Tom if I can get a decent bagel with ultragrain.   Decent is a relevant word.  To be honest a real bagel has to be made with bleached/bromated/high protien flour, and malt syrup.  People out here are clueless to this so I can give them most anything and it will sell.  Since I am tied to using whole wheat flour, no bromate, I will never get a bagel I would eat but  know I can make something that they will like.  It is like trying to make a Ferrari out of a VW bug. No way Jose can that be done and IMO using the flour I have is the same scenario.   My goal is to get work and this will get us plenty.  Bagels for non school customers are made traditionally with the good stuff/bagel boards/cooked direct on stones but we don't get many orders which is ok because we have more than enough diversity with products.  I wish I could focus more on just one or 2 things but the market isn't there to keep 18 kids working all day.  One of the things I look forward to with opening my own shop would be doing just pizza and maybe some bread, all my way.  Carrying 18 people all day with having enough work makes for a lot of long days of making too many products for my liking.  But it is for the cause and for now I am ok with it overall.  thanks.  Walter

Walter,

The RV people were at market before different times but never saw my pizza stand.  The lady RV person said she would do a write up in the gypsy RV reviews for other RV people to try my pizza when they are in our area.  I thanked her very much for saying she would do that.  The young man I showed quickly how to open a dough ball and told how to try and bake the pizza was a somewhat regular customer of mine.  I am not sure why he wanted to try one of my dough balls to make a pizza.  That is one thing I really like about being at market because I get to talk to a lot of different people in a days time. 

I hope I end up with my dough management with a 4-day cold ferment for market.  I will have to see how reliable my prep fridge is over the hot and humid summer months.  When I turned off my prep fridge last evening it really gave off water in the bottom compartment.  Hopefully letting it on for a few days over the summer won't foul up doing a 4-day cold ferment.  My pizza prep fridge might be something like yours is in that it won't be able to keep the low temps right longer than a day in warmer weather.

Since you explained more I understand that a real bagel can only be made with bleached/bromated/high protein flour and malt syrup.  I also can understand that it would be like trying to make a Ferrari out of a VW bug.  :-D I can see why you look forward to opening your own shop.

Norma 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 23, 2014, 07:46:26 PM
I forgot to post these two photos until now, but found it interesting that when this pizza was made there was no need to reheat any slices.  That does not usually happen.  This pizza was not rotated at all, and the door to the oven was not opened until the pizza was finished baking.  The rim crust browned evenly all around and I guess that was from lowering the temperature of the deck oven.  The dough ball was from a one day cold ferment.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 23, 2014, 08:06:18 PM
that pizza looks great Norma!  The crust looks killer for a 1 day dough and the camera captured it really nice. The lower oven temps seem to be serving you well.   IMO you are better off getting solid overall cooking with lower temps than with higher temps that lead to irradict cooking results. Every oven has its sweet spot for the type of pie one makes and it is what it is. Home bakers fiddle with broilers, and all kinds of mods that would never work in a commerical setting.  I think for what your ovens are you have them dialed in real good. You turn your fridge off during the week?  I wonder if leaving it running all the time would be better?  I only turn ours off for summer break which is like 9 weeks.  The prep fridge now holds our sauce, cheeses, pepperoni.  That frees up enough space to do the 4-5 day dough in the True upright and still leaves plenty of room for a 1-2 day dough in the prep if we run short and need 20 or so balls for the end of the week. 

Soon you will have every RV passing through PA stopping in.  We owned a 40 foot Monaco Dynasty desiel bus for years that we used for music and leisure. The RV community is real tight so be prepared for more to follow.  I miss the community but when my music touring stopped the upkeep and 6mpg was killing us.    I bet that customer figured if he got one of your dough balls he could turn out a pizza like yours.  I love selling dough balls.  I give detailed instructions and most everyone that comments on the results says they prefer to buy our pies.  I figure it only increases their loyality to our pies :)  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 23, 2014, 08:48:42 PM
that pizza looks great Norma!  The crust looks killer for a 1 day dough and the camera captured it really nice. The lower oven temps seem to be serving you well.   IMO you are better off getting solid overall cooking with lower temps than with higher temps that lead to irradict cooking results. Every oven has its sweet spot for the type of pie one makes and it is what it is. Home bakers fiddle with broilers, and all kinds of mods that would never work in a commerical setting.  I think for what your ovens are you have them dialed in real good. You turn your fridge off during the week?  I wonder if leaving it running all the time would be better?  I only turn ours off for summer break which is like 9 weeks.  The prep fridge now holds our sauce, cheeses, pepperoni.  That frees up enough space to do the 4-5 day dough in the True upright and still leaves plenty of room for a 1-2 day dough in the prep if we run short and need 20 or so balls for the end of the week. 

Soon you will have every RV passing through PA stopping in.  We owned a 40 foot Monaco Dynasty desiel bus for years that we used for music and leisure. The RV community is real tight so be prepared for more to follow.  I miss the community but when my music touring stopped the upkeep and 6mpg was killing us.    I bet that customer figured if he got one of your dough balls he could turn out a pizza like yours.  I love selling dough balls.  I give detailed instructions and most everyone that comments on the results says they prefer to buy our pies.  I figure it only increases their loyality to our pies :)  Walter

Walter,

I agree that the lower oven temperatures seem to be working well for the type of deck oven I have.  I was tempted to lower the dial more to see what would happen, but left it alone.  Home pizza makers are lucky in that they can fool around with different mods.  At least I can do that in my BS. 

I do turn the pizza prep fridge off during the week because of it increasing my electric bill.  I don't know if letting it run would be better for it or not.  The one repairmen told Steve that prep fridges aren't meant to run at really high temperatures like in the summertime with no air conditioning.  Steve had some problems with his pizza prep table just as I had before.  My deli case is left on all of the time because of the storage of cheese in there and other things.  In the warmer weather a hose is running from the bottom of my deli case and it runs water out to a evaporation tray most of the time when it is really hot and humid.  In the cooler months there is never any water running out of that hose.  It is bone dry. 

Good to hear that your prep fridge can hold your sauce, cheeses and pepperoni. 

Lol, I don't think I will have every RV passing through Pa. stopping in.  Your Monaco Dynasty diesel bus sure looked like a gem.   8)

I am glad you love selling dough balls and explaining how to use them.  I did sell dough balls before, but mostly stopped selling them since I can not really figure out how many dough balls I will need for any given Tuesday.  I can understand why almost everyone would want to purchase your pies before purchasing your dough balls.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 24, 2014, 10:03:23 AM
The dough was made with the late addition of IDY.  Cold water from out of the fridge was used and the final dough temperature was 66.2 degrees F.  0.17% IDY was used in the formulation.  The dough dough looked a little scrappy, but it was mixed like I usually do at home for the same amount of time I usually mix my test doughs in the Kitchen aid mixer.

I used a container lid without a hole to see if speckling still occurs.  I still am curious why speckling did not occur on the 4-day cold fermented dough balls that were in the plastic bags.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 24, 2014, 01:26:07 PM
The dough was made with the late addition of IDY.  Cold water from out of the fridge was used and the final dough temperature was 66.2 degrees F.  0.17% IDY was used in the formulation.  The dough dough looked a little scrappy, but it was mixed like I usually do at home for the same amount of time I usually mix my test doughs in the Kitchen aid mixer.

I used a container lid without a hole to see if speckling still occurs.  I still am curious why speckling did not occur on the 4-day cold fermented dough balls that were in the plastic bags.

Norma

Norma:   I have no idea why you didn't get specks.   They tell me basically how flavorful the dough will be.  I look forward to your results.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: bigMoose on April 24, 2014, 06:47:31 PM
So all this talk from you two made me miss Walter's NY style a lot.  ;D  So I mixed up Tuesday morningwhat I think is close to his recipe, but with 0.25% yeast.  I used spring water that was on the pantry shelf.  That night I understood why he advocated iced water, as the lid popped off my proofing container in the fridge.

I transferred the dough to a larger container, and let it age in the fridge until this evening, Thursday... so a 2 day cold ferment.  It was a bit over risen I think, and I had a bit too much dough for the size of my stone.  I have tuned the recipe card for my next try.

My oh my what a flavorful dough!  I preheated the oven with the stone to 515 then reduced the temp to 485 when I loaded the pizza to keep the top element from going on hard.  The cornice came out the best that I have ever had.  A thin, crispy crunch, and a velvety, scrumptious center.   This is one of the first times I have loved bare crust outside of Walter's shop!

Attached is a pix of the cornice.  My thickness is too heavy, and my apologies that I did succumb to my habit and placed a few thin slices of jalapeno pepper on it... that is the "green stuff" in the pix.  I am going to make a few more of these!   ;)
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 24, 2014, 07:25:22 PM
Bigmoose:  Congragulations on a cool looking pie and thanks for the compliment.  Following Norma and Peter is a real learning experience and IMO the hottest ticket on this forum.  Norma convinced me to try using some oil in my dough.  I never have and was reluctant but I am now hooked.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 24, 2014, 07:57:09 PM
Norma:   I have no idea why you didn't get specks.   They tell me basically how flavorful the dough will be.  I look forward to your results.  Walter

Walter,

I did get the specks on the dough balls in the plastic containers.  I am just wondering why the specks also did not form in the plastic bags.  I could see fermentation bubbles in the bags.  I might never know the answer but am always looking for answers.  If I find time tomorrow I am going to purchase a dough tray to see what happens.

If the late addition IDY dough ball behaves it might have some different toppings dressings.  :P  I found where to purchase some Dragone part-skim mozzarella (cut from a block) near me today.  I also purchased some Margherita pepperoni (that the butcher sliced) and some hot Sopressata.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 24, 2014, 08:02:58 PM
So all this talk from you two made me miss Walter's NY style a lot.  ;D  So I mixed up Tuesday morningwhat I think is close to his recipe, but with 0.25% yeast.  I used spring water that was on the pantry shelf.  That night I understood why he advocated iced water, as the lid popped off my proofing container in the fridge.

I transferred the dough to a larger container, and let it age in the fridge until this evening, Thursday... so a 2 day cold ferment.  It was a bit over risen I think, and I had a bit too much dough for the size of my stone.  I have tuned the recipe card for my next try.

My oh my what a flavorful dough!  I preheated the oven with the stone to 515 then reduced the temp to 485 when I loaded the pizza to keep the top element from going on hard.  The cornice came out the best that I have ever had.  A thin, crispy crunch, and a velvety, scrumptious center.   This is one of the first times I have loved bare crust outside of Walter's shop!

Attached is a pix of the cornice.  My thickness is too heavy, and my apologies that I did succumb to my habit and placed a few thin slices of jalapeno pepper on it... that is the "green stuff" in the pix.  I am going to make a few more of these!   ;)

Dave,

You did a great job with Walter's NY style pizza!  8) It looks delicious and you achieved good crust browning.  Glad you had such a flavorful dough.  The jalapeno peppers sound really good too.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 24, 2014, 08:18:04 PM
Walter,

I did get the specks on the dough balls in the plastic containers.  I am just wondering why the specks also did not form in the plastic bags.  I could see fermentation bubbles in the bags.  I might never know the answer but am always looking for answers.  If I find time tomorrow I am going to purchase a dough tray to see what happens.

If the late addition IDY dough ball behaves it might have some different toppings dressings.  :P  I found where to purchase some Dragone part-skim mozzarella (cut from a block) near me today.  I also purchased some Margherita pepperoni (that the butcher sliced) and some hot Sopressata.

Norma

I hope the dough works.  The finished temp and yeast amount are right on.  I never heard of Dragone cheese.  That meat looks good!  the picture reminded me of my grandfather.  On weekends we would go to my grandparents house most of the day making food and eating.  My grandmother made the meals and my grandfather was a butcher.  He made all kinds of wonderful Italian meats. They never owned a home but always had an extra room to spread out the pastas on sheets and to hang his meats for curing.  He would carefully slice them and the cheeses to make me a sandwich on homemade bread.  We would sit in his backyard (with its 20 foot garden complete with a grape vine in Harrison NJ) under the fig tree.  He would drink his homemade wine and I had would get a bit of it watered down for lunch.  I would help him crush grapes and marveled at his still that he produced cordials with. They were happy days of being with people right off the boat from Italy that kept the old ways. Those days are all gone now for me. I keep a bit alive with my pizza making and wish I knew then what I know now.  I would have studied with them a whole lot more.  Judy and I often think of retiring to Abruzzi.  Their family still has some abandoned farmlands there.  I was lucky to have those days.  Walter   
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 24, 2014, 08:47:51 PM
I hope the dough works.  The finished temp and yeast amount are right on.  I never heard of Dragone cheese.  That meat looks good!  the picture reminded me of my grandfather.  On weekends we would go to my grandparents house most of the day making food and eating.  My grandmother made the meals and my grandfather was a butcher.  He made all kinds of wonderful Italian meats. They never owned a home but always had an extra room to spread out the pastas on sheets and to hang his meats for curing.  He would carefully slice them and the cheeses to make me a sandwich on homemade bread.  We would sit in his backyard (with its 20 foot garden complete with a grape vine in Harrison NJ) under the fig tree.  He would drink his homemade wine and I had would get a bit of it watered down for lunch.  I would help him crush grapes and marveled at his still that he produced cordials with. They were happy days of being with people right off the boat from Italy that kept the old ways. Those days are all gone now for me. I keep a bit alive with my pizza making and wish I knew then what I know now.  I would have studied with them a whole lot more.  Judy and I often think of retiring to Abruzzi.  Their family still has some abandoned farmlands there.  I was lucky to have those days.  Walter

Walter,

Thanks for saying you hope the dough works okay.  Dragone part-skim mozzarella is made by Saputo.  Since I never had a chance to try it before I thought I would purchase a pound.  I also purchased some Parmigiano-Reggiano if everything goes okay.  Seriously, if things don't go okay I can still use the new dressings on another pizza.  :-D The meats are really good.  I already taste tasted them.  I am glad the photo reminded you of your grandfather.  It sure sounds like you had a great time and taste treats from your grandfather and family.  The wine sounds great too!  :P I know what you mean about studying with old timers more.  I wish I also had done that.  You were lucky to have those days.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Chaze215 on April 24, 2014, 09:07:19 PM
Moose, Walter, Norma....do you guys use IDY or ADY in your pies?
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 24, 2014, 09:16:16 PM
Moose, Walter, Norma....do you guys use IDY or ADY in your pies?

Chaze,

I use IDY for my market pies.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: bigMoose on April 24, 2014, 09:31:48 PM
SAF IDY for me.  Very predictable.
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 24, 2014, 09:51:15 PM
I did get the specks on the dough balls in the plastic containers.  I am just wondering why the specks also did not form in the plastic bags.  I could see fermentation bubbles in the bags.  I might never know the answer but am always looking for answers.  If I find time tomorrow I am going to purchase a dough tray to see what happens
Norma,

You might want to take a look at Reply 118 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg42774#msg42774 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg42774#msg42774) . It is possible that your dough balls, which are tightly wrapped in the plastic bags with little or no space between the dough balls and the plastic bags, have little exposure to air (oxygen).

Peter

Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 24, 2014, 10:22:53 PM
Norma,

You might want to take a look at Reply 118 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg42774#msg42774 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg42774#msg42774) . It is possible that your dough balls, which are tightly wrapped in the plastic bags with little or no space between the dough balls and the plastic bags, have little exposure to air (oxygen).

Peter

Peter,

I thought you might be the person to have it figured out that oxygen produces those speckles.   Lol about your dough breaking out of its straitjacket.  I don't recall that post of yours from your link.  That dough ball when left out of its pouch sure looks very well fermented.  It is surprising you could make such a good looking pizza from that dough. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 25, 2014, 05:48:04 AM
Moose, Walter, Norma....do you guys use IDY or ADY in your pies?

IDY for ice water.   Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Chaze215 on April 25, 2014, 07:25:45 AM
IDY for ice water.   Walter
Do you use ADY when not using ice water?
After reading a lot of this thread, Im thinking that I have to reduce my yeast levels and use colder water for my 2 day cold ferment. My last batch
was overfermented/blown out and the only thing I can attribute this to is the water temp, yeast level and dough temp after mixing. It was only the 2nd time using my 20 quart Hobart....with the new hook I might add :-).
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 25, 2014, 07:40:50 AM

After reading a lot of this thread, Im thinking that I have to reduce my yeast levels and use colder water for my 2 day cold ferment. My last batch
was overfermented/blown out and the only thing I can attribute this to is the water temp, yeast level and dough temp after mixing. It was only the 2nd time using my 20 quart Hobart....with the new hook I might add :-).


Chaze,

If your last 2 day cold fermented dough batch was overfermented/blown out, it could have been the water temperature, yeast level or your final dough temperature that made that happen.  It also could have been the temperature where you store your dough balls.  I am glad you like you new spiral hook for your Hobart mixer. 

Norma 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Chaze215 on April 25, 2014, 08:03:15 AM
Chaze,

If your last 2 day cold fermented dough batch was overfermented/blown out, it could have been the water temperature, yeast level or your final dough temperature that made that happen.  It also could have been the temperature where you store your dough balls.  I am glad you like you new spiral hook for your Hobart mixer. 

Norma

I'm not sure which of those 3 variables it is. The dough was held in my home fridge and im not sure of the temp in there. I'm going to start with lowering my yeast level and use colder water. This should do the trick. I saw moose is using .25% IDY for his 2 day cold ferment. What are you using these days? I would ask Walter that same question, but he has WAY more experience than I do and doesn't really measure, but goes more by look and feel. With practice, I will get there as well :-)
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 25, 2014, 08:11:42 AM
Chaz,

It sounds like you are using ADY. If so, can you tell us how much ADY you are using as a percent of formula flour, how you have been preparing the ADY for use, whether you have been measuring finished dough temperature, and whether you have been allowing the dough balls to rest before refrigerating?

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: bigMoose on April 25, 2014, 09:23:27 AM
Chaze, I have a bad habit of changing too many variables at one time!  For the pie I posted above, I used a food processor dough blade for the first time also.  The dough came out far warmer than it does from my KA.  I sort of knew I was in trouble immediately. 

My next batch will be with chilled water and 0.25% IDY.  If that over rises, I'll do chilled water and 0.17% IDY.  In fact, my daughter is coming home on Sunday for a visit, so I will do another batch of dough this morning and will report back.
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 25, 2014, 09:30:44 AM
What are you using these days? I would ask Walter that same question, but he has WAY more experience than I do and doesn't really measure, but goes more by look and feel. With practice, I will get there as well :-)

Chaze,

Right now I am using a low amount of IDY (0.17%) and using cold water because I am doing a 4-day cold ferment.  Normally for a one day cold ferment I would use anywhere from about 0.55%-0.375% IDY all depending on the temperature at market, water temperature, flour temperature, final dough temperature and how long a batch will take me to ball, etc.  Walter does measure by weight, but makes some tweaks sometimes all depending on how his dough feels and if he thinks there might need to be more water added.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 25, 2014, 03:31:45 PM
Do you use ADY when not using ice water?
After reading a lot of this thread, Im thinking that I have to reduce my yeast levels and use colder water for my 2 day cold ferment. My last batch
was overfermented/blown out and the only thing I can attribute this to is the water temp, yeast level and dough temp after mixing. It was only the 2nd time using my 20 quart Hobart....with the new hook I might add :-).

Chaze:  I use IDY most all the time now.  I still keep some ADY yeast around for the heck of it but rarely use it.  Just for kicks I ordered some fresh yeast that will be delivered Monday. I want to go back to  using it in my artisan breads where we hand knead more than use a mixer. I started with fresh yeast and kind of miss it more for memories (feel/smell/crumble) than for any real benefit.  From what I have observed IDY works as good as any yeast once you figure out your amounts/temps/fridge habits.  Plus with ice water ferments I would not trust ADY or fresh yeast.  If you were using your regular dough recipe the new hobart shouldn't have made any difference.  Out here in OH it is getting warm so that will affect the picture.  I do mix by eye to some extent but with IDY yeast/multi day cold ferments I measure it out very accurately.  I tend to go over/under on water/flour from my days of working with bucket measurements but since joining the forum I have gotten much more accurate with my weight measurements wich whipped my tail with erradic results when I was eyeballing the cold multiday ferements I learned here.  My same day dough approach got reconfigured from bucket line marks, measuring spoons, to a scale more and more till now I use it for everything pretty much all the time :)    I still will add more water at times.  I rarely go drier with a dough.  I like at least a 63% hydration rate.  We used cake yeast on same day dough and weighed that out fairly accurately but with same day dough pizza dough you can be less precise and get away with it.  The dough was raised in room temp so one had to be monkeying more than with cold ferments and it is much more forgiving but lacks the flavor of the multi day cold rises IMO.    With the multi day cold ferments yeast measurement is a ton more critical.  That has been my observations but I have no formal schooling behind me to back anything up.   Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Chaze215 on April 25, 2014, 03:52:38 PM
Thanks for your detailed reply Walt. I've been using ADY for as long as I can remember because I bought a nice size bag from costco a while back. Why do you say you wouldn't trust it with cold ferment? I've used it for Jim Lahey's no knead bread which calls for cold water and never had a problem.
Ps....I will take experience over schooling any day!
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 25, 2014, 04:12:18 PM
Thanks for your detailed reply Walt. I've been using ADY for as long as I can remember because I bought a nice size bag from costco a while back. Why do you say you wouldn't trust it with cold ferment? I've used it for Jim Lahey's no knead bread which calls for cold water and never had a problem.
Ps....I will take experience over schooling any day!

I never tried it for ice water cold ferments because it is common practice to activate it in warm water first.  The IDY is bullet proof in ice water. I use water as cold as 35 degrees with it.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Chaze215 on April 25, 2014, 04:17:19 PM
I see what you are saying. However, I did a side by side (activating vs no activating) and didn't notice one bit of difference. And some experts (I'm certainly not one of them) agree that the ADY does not need to be activated in warm water. Just my 2 cents.
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 25, 2014, 04:32:37 PM
The first two photos are of the dough ball that had the last addition of IDY (5-day cold ferment) when it was taken to market today.  I did not open the container today to see if spotting will occur until Monday. 

The next series of photos are of the 4-day cold fermented dough made today around lunchtime for Tuesday.  I want to see if I can get good results like this past Tuesday.  The formulation I used is one of the photos.  I put duck tape on the hole that was in the lid of the plastic container to see if spotting occurs in one plastic container with the duck tape.   The other lid was not taped on top of the plastic container.  The final dough temperature can be seen in the one photo of the 5 dough ball batch. 

The power supply for my scale must have fallen, and where it plugs into the receptacle it was really pushed in.  I pulled it out and it does still work, but I am getting a new power supply.  I was moving heavy furniture yesterday and two heavy drawers fell out of a dresser.  The drawers scraped the top of my middle finger and took all of the skin off.  Hopefully that heals enough until Tuesday so I can stretch the dough balls out.  If I need to wear a plastic glove on that hand I sure don't know how a glove would work in opening dough balls.  I am used to having nothing on my hands when opening dough balls.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 25, 2014, 04:35:20 PM
Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 25, 2014, 05:18:32 PM
Just for kicks I ordered some fresh yeast that will be delivered Monday. I want to go back to  using it in my artisan breads where we hand knead more than use a mixer. I started with fresh yeast and kind of miss it more for memories (feel/smell/crumble) than for any real benefit.  From what I have observed IDY works as good as any yeast once you figure out your amounts/temps/fridge habits.  Plus with ice water ferments I would not trust ADY or fresh yeast.
Walter,

No form of yeast likes to be shocked with cold water. And each form of yeast has its own recommended rehydration method. In the case of fresh yeast, it can either be rehydrated in water or just mixed in with the flour and other dry ingredients. As noted at Reply 34 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=28672.msg289056;topicseen#msg289056 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=28672.msg289056;topicseen#msg289056), since fresh yeast is about 75 percent water, if it is to be rehydrated in water, the recommended water temperature is around 90-95 degrees F although I have read as low as around 70 degrees F. For some other tips on the use of fresh yeast, you might read Tom Lehmann's PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/fresh-yeast.10273/#post-73843 (http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/fresh-yeast.10273/#post-73843).

In the case of your ADY, there are some people who use ADY and IDY interchangeably, including not prehydrating the ADY in warm water. But that is not the recommended method, either by the yeast producers or our own expert, Tom Lehmann. The recommended method for ADY is to take an amount of water that is about 4-5 times the weight of the ADY and prehydrate the ADY in that amount of water. That water should be at around 105-110 degrees F, and the duration of the rehydration should be around 10-15 minutes. At the end of the prehydration step, the ADY can be added to the rest of the formula water or to the rest of the ingredients in the mixer bowl. That remaining water can be on the cool side but ideally that water should be at a temperature calculated to produce a finished dough temperature of around 70-75 degrees F for a home setting using a standard home refrigerator or 75-80 degrees F for a commercial setting using a commercial cooler.

For a two day cold fermentation period, such as Chaze has mentioned, the amount of ADY is important but equally important is the finished dough temperature. Where the water temperature is most important is with ADY. Several years ago, I read somewhere that being off by five degrees F with the water temperature used with ADY can result in a loss of leavening power of ten percent. At least that is what I reported in Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6163.msg52957;topicseen#msg52957 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6163.msg52957;topicseen#msg52957). Another common mistake that people make with ADY, including by professionals, is to use all warm water. That is bound to increase the finished dough temperature above the desired value and promote premature fermentation (since the dough balls take longer to cool down) and, eventually, the possibility of overfermentation.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 25, 2014, 07:51:43 PM
Peter:  Thanks for that clarification. It confirms what I have learned with just working with yeast.  IDY is bulletproof for me. I can have ice water and add it and it works perfect and I have figured out what finished dough temps I need for the amount of time I want it to ferment.  For same day/1 day dough I use a warmer finished temp 75-80 degrees.  Using fresh yeast with artisan breads I like to mix the flour/water till it just comes together and lumps are out, let it rest for about 1/2 hour, then crumble fresh yeast, knead it in well, then add salt, finish kneading, and then go through the stretch/rises/shaping.  I learned this method from my mother and is very close to the french bread method the shop owner on our corner in Brussels used.  I will read those links during this weekend time off.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 28, 2014, 06:40:08 PM
At least to me, the late addition of the IDY and the lower final dough temperature worked good in keeping the dough ball from fermenting more (4-days today).  That dough ball is in the first photo. 

The second and third photos are of the dough ball that was made on Friday with a lower final dough temperature and 0.17% IDY. 

The fourth photo is of the dough ball that also was made on Friday (in the same 5-dough ball batch as the last photos), but had the duct tape on the lid.  As can be seen there some spotting on the top of the dough balls but not quite as much as the dough ball that is in the second and third photos (that did have a hole in the plastic lid).

The fifth photo is what both dough balls in the plastic containers looked like on the bottom.  I did not take photos of both of them since they looked very similar. 

The sixth photo is of the dough ball that also was made on Friday and was in a plastic bag.  It can be seen there is no spotting on that dough ball.  I think it is interesting to see what a dough ball looks like that has been in a plastic bag after cold fermenting for 3 days.  It looks like there are tiny bubbles on top of the dough ball.  The one day cold fermented dough balls do not have those tiny bubbles on the top of the dough balls.

The seventh photo is of the new power supply that was purchased for the market scale.   

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: bigMoose on April 29, 2014, 07:58:43 AM
My next batch will be with chilled water and 0.25% IDY.  If that over rises, I'll do chilled water and 0.17% IDY.  In fact, my daughter is coming home on Sunday for a visit, so I will do another batch of dough this morning and will report back.

...reporting back.  I cold fermented for 3 days my "Walter dough" with 0.25% IDY and chilled water out of the filtered fridge water dispenser.  The rise was perfect at 3 days.  Made the pizza for my daughter yesterday, and she said: "This is the best pizza I every had!"  She never eats the cornice crust, but devoured like 1/2 the pizza after saying, "I'm not hungry and don't be offended if I don't eat much..." 

I did notice my two doughs were not as easy to open as Walter's were in his shop.  I will make another today, chilled water, 0.25% IDY, but I will increase my knead time.  I am using GM Full Strength flour.
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 29, 2014, 09:30:03 PM
...reporting back.  I cold fermented for 3 days my "Walter dough" with 0.25% IDY and chilled water out of the filtered fridge water dispenser.  The rise was perfect at 3 days.  Made the pizza for my daughter yesterday, and she said: "This is the best pizza I every had!"  She never eats the cornice crust, but devoured like 1/2 the pizza after saying, "I'm not hungry and don't be offended if I don't eat much..." 

I did notice my two doughs were not as easy to open as Walter's were in his shop.  I will make another today, chilled water, 0.25% IDY, but I will increase my knead time.  I am using GM Full Strength flour.

Dave,

Thanks for your report on your 3 days cold fermented Walter's dough with 0.25% IDY and chilled water.  I am glad your daughter thought the pizza was the best she ever had.   8)

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 29, 2014, 09:34:23 PM
These are the photos of the one 4-day dough ball that was in the plastic container after it was tempered and of the pizza.  The pizza crust tasted very good.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 29, 2014, 09:35:50 PM
Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 29, 2014, 09:41:37 PM
These are the photos of the 4-day cold fermented dough ball (that was in a plastic bag), and the pizza.  This pizza was sauced the regular way and also the Dragone part-skim mozzarella was used as the cheese, then fresh basil and the good Parmesan cheese was shredded on the pizza after the bake.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 29, 2014, 09:45:28 PM
These are the photos of the late addition of the IDY dough ball after it was tempered and the final pizza. This pizza was dressed boardwalk style with extra added dressings.  This pizza reheated very well and had a very good taste in the rim crust and bottom crust. 

The rest of the experimental dough balls were used to make pizzas for customers because I ran out of regular dough balls.  I did not have time to take photos of the pizzas that were made for customers.  All of the dough balls were very easy to open.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 29, 2014, 09:46:39 PM
Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: jsaras on April 29, 2014, 10:28:48 PM
So have you now made the "ultimate" Norma pizza dough?
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 29, 2014, 10:41:45 PM
So have you now made the "ultimate" Norma pizza dough?

Jonas,

I have no idea if I have made the ultimate dough yet.  I do like both of them though.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 30, 2014, 06:07:45 AM
...reporting back.  I cold fermented for 3 days my "Walter dough" with 0.25% IDY and chilled water out of the filtered fridge water dispenser.  The rise was perfect at 3 days.  Made the pizza for my daughter yesterday, and she said: "This is the best pizza I every had!"  She never eats the cornice crust, but devoured like 1/2 the pizza after saying, "I'm not hungry and don't be offended if I don't eat much..." 

I did notice my two doughs were not as easy to open as Walter's were in his shop.  I will make another today, chilled water, 0.25% IDY, but I will increase my knead time.  I am using GM Full Strength flour.

Dave: Congragulations! I will be coming up your way for lessons soon.  How long did you let the dough warm up before opening?  Norma has inspired me to add oil to my dough (1.5%).  I really like it and it opens up easier as well.   Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 30, 2014, 06:13:41 AM
Jonas,

I have no idea if I have made the ultimate dough yet.  I do like both of them though.

Norma

Norma:  Those pies look great!  I am happy you have found the cold water to your liking and figured it out for your crazy weather market set up (for this week at least :)).  I figure the prep table refrigerators are so small and a lot of thier juice is going to the keep the rail cool, that it must add to the struggle they have to keep temps down. My next one will be a La Rosa.  I have heard great things about them.  I will be working a 14 hour day today- going to Columbus to be in the studio of the TV station with some students after school.  They are airing our segement at 5:30 and we are bringing the french bread, sourdough bread, pizzas, cookies, brownies, dog biscuits,as a thank you.  We have a big breakfast to cater first thing so I gotta jet!  See you.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 30, 2014, 06:55:23 AM
Norma:  Those pies look great!  I am happy you have found the cold water to your liking and figured it out for your crazy weather market set up (for this week at least :)).  I figure the prep table refrigerators are so small and a lot of thier juice is going to the keep the rail cool, that it must add to the struggle they have to keep temps down. My next one will be a La Rosa.  I have heard great things about them.  I will be working a 14 hour day today- going to Columbus to be in the studio of the TV station with some students after school.  They are airing our segement at 5:30 and we are bringing the french bread, sourdough bread, pizzas, cookies, brownies, dog biscuits,as a thank you.  We have a big breakfast to cater first thing so I gotta jet!  See you.  Walter

Walter,

Thanks!  I do find the cold water to my liking, and am glad you and Peter helped me.  The RV people were at market again yesterday and the one man purchased a slice of the 4-day cold fermented pizza.  I told him the crust might taste different.  He came back and said he was a chef and he did taste the difference in the 4-day cold fermented slice and said it was really good.  I am not sure which cold water formulation I like best.  I think there was a little edge to the one that had the late addition of the IDY and the extra day cold ferment.  Now to figure out how to combine them in a 4-day cold ferment.  I guess my small prep fridge does take a lot of juice to keep the top compartment cool.  There is no insulation in the place that the top pulls up for the pizza ingredients.  I wonder how my prep fridge will keep up in the warmer weather.  I just hope my coils don't freeze up.  It was only 50 degrees F inside market yesterday when I arrived.  They turned all the heaters off now.  I know it was cooler when I was at market Friday and Monday.  Great to hear your next prep fridge will be a La Rosa.  Your long day today sounds busy.  Maybe you can find a link to the airing of your segment at 5:30.  I would be interested in seeing it.

I turned my oven down more in temperature yesterday and still had decent oven spring a good bottom crust browning.  These few photos were from a pizza from the 1-day cold fermented dough.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 30, 2014, 09:18:39 AM
Norma,

I agree with Walter. The pizzas look terrific.

Out of curiosity, I calculated the increase in volume of the two types of dough balls (4-day and 5-day) based on the poppy seed spacing. The four-day dough ball you showed was just shy of doubling in volume. That is nicely positioned in a safe zone. The five-day dough ball with the late addition of the IDY increased in volume by almost 68%. Although the five-day dough ball was started at home, if we assume just for calculating purposes that the two types of dough balls performed pretty much the same through their fermentation periods, the 4-day dough ball increased at an average rate of about 25% a day. By contrast, the 5-day dough ball increased at an average rate of about 13.6% a day. That leads me to believe that that dough ball could have lasted at least another day and possibly even longer. Unfortunately, unless you go for something like a Tuesday to Tuesday dough making window at market, or a Monday to next Tuesday dough making window, that is, a 7-day or 8-day dough, you may not be able to use the delayed IDY method at market. But it was good nonetheless to see your delayed IDY results and confirm its utility. The other day, while I was revisiting the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33251#msg33251 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33251#msg33251), in which I discussed the late IDY addition method at length, along with using below average finished dough temperatures, I couldn't help but notice that that thread has close to 83,000 page views. Even for an old thread (started in late 2006), and especially one that is highly technical in nature, that is a lot of page views. I don't know who is reading that thread or why, especially given that there has been little new posting activity in that thread, but someone must be reading it.

At least for now, it looks like a 4-day cold fermented dough should work at market, along with using the lower bake temperatures and longer bake times. That combination looks to be a good one. Also, you have some of the nice benefits of the oil and sugar.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: tinroofrusted on April 30, 2014, 09:33:16 AM
Norma, I bet your customers are gobbling those slices up. They look delicious! 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: DIY Whiz on April 30, 2014, 11:48:17 AM
Hi Norma - what temp did you turn your oven down to?

pete
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: jsaras on April 30, 2014, 11:56:30 AM
FWIW, one of my favorite places here in Los Angeles, Slicetruck Pizzeria (which is now in a physical building) has always used cold water and a 3-day fermentation.  They make American pizzas using Kamut khorosan flour, so it's difficult to make apples to apples comparisons, but their crust has always been tasty.
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 30, 2014, 01:01:40 PM
Norma: I am glad to hear you turned the heat down and got such good results.  Finding the sweet spot with oven temp is worth the experiments.  My blodgett1000's sweet spot is 540-560.  Higher than that and the pies burn on the bottom. I also have cooked them at 450, by mistake, and they came out great.   Gabolgo (Sp?) who is a member here and owns a shop in Conneticut talked about lower temp bakes and how good pies can come out.   IMO much of the NY pizzas pictured on this forum are too burned for my taste.  I grew up with typical NY style pies and they baked at 500-550 with little to no rim/bottom burnt.  That to me is a classic NY pie.  I think most here focus on the coal oven pies of NY and back in my day there were only a few and I never ate there.    Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: bigMoose on April 30, 2014, 01:17:39 PM
Dave: ... How long did you let the dough warm up before opening?  Norma has inspired me to add oil to my dough (1.5%).  I really like it and it opens up easier as well.   Walter
Walter, I let it sit on the counter 2.5 hours before opening.  It did still feel just a bit cool still.  Do you think I should let it room temp acclimate/rise longer?   Thanks for the other comments, but all I know I learned from you, Larry, Norma, Pete, and all the others on the board... and my Italian Grandma!
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 30, 2014, 01:20:45 PM
Walter, I let it sit on the counter 2.5 hours before opening.  It did still feel just a bit cool still.  Do you think I should let it room temp acclimate/rise longer?   Thanks for the other comments, but all I know I learned from you, Larry, Norma, Pete, and all the others on the board... and my Italian Grandma!


It should be way ready by then unless your house is like 60 degrees or colder.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 30, 2014, 01:36:37 PM
Norma,

I agree with Walter. The pizzas look terrific.

Out of curiosity, I calculated the increase in volume of the two types of dough balls (4-day and 5-day) based on the poppy seed spacing. The four-day dough ball you showed was just shy of doubling in volume. That is nicely positioned in a safe zone. The five-day dough ball with the late addition of the IDY increased in volume by almost 68%. Although the five-day dough ball was started at home, if we assume just for calculating purposes that the two types of dough balls performed pretty much the same through their fermentation periods, the 4-day dough ball increased at an average rate of about 25% a day. By contrast, the 5-day dough ball increased at an average rate of about 13.6% a day. That leads me to believe that that dough ball could have lasted at least another day and possibly even longer. Unfortunately, unless you go for something like a Tuesday to Tuesday dough making window at market, or a Monday to next Tuesday dough making window, that is, a 7-day or 8-day dough, you may not be able to use the delayed IDY method at market. But it was good nonetheless to see your delayed IDY results and confirm its utility. The other day, while I was revisiting the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33251#msg33251 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33251#msg33251), in which I discussed the late IDY addition method at length, along with using below average finished dough temperatures, I couldn't help but notice that that thread has close to 83,000 page views. Even for an old thread (started in late 2006), and especially one that is highly technical in nature, that is a lot of page views. I don't know who is reading that thread or why, especially given that there has been little new posting activity in that thread, but someone must be reading it.

At least for now, it looks like a 4-day cold fermented dough should work at market, along with using the lower bake temperatures and longer bake times. That combination looks to be a good one. Also, you have some of the nice benefits of the oil and sugar.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for doing the calculations for the amount of increase in volume for the two types of dough balls.  It is good to hear that the four-day dough ball I showed was just shy of doubling in volume.  All of the 4-day cold fermented dough performed well even if they were not warmed up properly.  The ones left at room temperature did not seem to ferment a lot while being there.  I think it is interesting that even when almost cold the dough balls can be opened much easier than regular dough balls.  Another thing is there is almost no bubbling in the middle even if the dough balls are opened almost cold from the prep fridge.  I know Walter also reported on that before.  Do you or Walter have any ideas how that can be?  I also thought by looking at the two dough balls that had poppy seeds on them that was about the amount of increase in volume.  Thanks for also telling me you think the 5-day dough ball could have lasted at least another day and possibly longer.    Your thread “New KitchenAid Dough Making Method” is a very good thread that you told in detail what happened and showed the results of what you did.  I agree that close to 83,000 page views for a thread so technical in nature is a lot of views. 

I agree that I think the 4-day cold fermented dough will work for market as long as the prep fridge cooperates in warmer weather.  I think because my prep fridge right now is on uneven flooring is why some water wants to form on the bottom shelf after 4 days of being turned on.  Hopefully the floor will soon be fixed.   

I really liked the sweetness and nutty flavor in the rim crust and also how moist the rim crust is.

Norma 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 30, 2014, 01:50:44 PM
Norma, I bet your customers are gobbling those slices up. They look delicious!

TinRoof,

I really don't know yet what my regular customers will think of the 4-day cold fermented dough pizzas.  Those dough balls were only used at the end of the evening so I don't have any feedback except from the one that the man from the RV gave me.  Time will tell if customers can taste and see the differences.  I had settlement for my mother's home this morning and the son of the lady that purchased her home knows me from the the boardwalk style of pizzas I make.  He goes nuts over the boardwalk style of pizzas I make.  He told his whole family at settlement today how good my pizzas are and that he could only recall eating pizzas like mine at Grotto's and at Papa Dino's.  He did say that Papa Dino's crusts really went downhill from many years ago.  We got talking about Mack's pizza today and his whole family said they are the best pizzas around.  The son told me that was the first pizza he ever ate that was any good and he remembers Mack's just like I do.  Now his whole family is going to be coming to market to try out my boardwalk style of pizzas.  They were even trying to fix with up with their father today.  :-D 

I guess I can now called them NY boardwalk pizzas because I am only using 1.07 lb. dough for a dough ball and I am baking like that did in NY many years ago in a deck oven.  It took me a little over 5 years to get to this point.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 30, 2014, 01:56:32 PM
Hi Norma - what temp did you turn your oven down to?

pete

DIY Whiz,

I am not sure what temperature the oven is turned down to now.  I did turn it back a little yesterday morning.  Steve did take the temperatures yesterday afternoon different places across the deck and the range of temperatures was surprising.  The sides are about 547 and the middle of the deck only was about 425 degrees F.  I have to take some more temperatures next week to really see how the temperatures vary.  Steve and I thought it was strange the temperatures we saw, but then pizzas were going into both decks.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 30, 2014, 02:00:39 PM
FWIW, one of my favorite places here in Los Angeles, Slicetruck Pizzeria (which is now in a physical building) has always used cold water and a 3-day fermentation.  They make American pizzas using Kamut khorosan flour, so it's difficult to make apples to apples comparisons, but their crust has always been tasty.

Jonas,

Thanks so much for telling us about one of your favorite pizzerias in Los Angeles.  It is interesting that they use cold water for a 3-day cold fermentation.  It is good to hear their crusts are tasty too.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 30, 2014, 02:13:07 PM
Norma: I am glad to hear you turned the heat down and got such good results.  Finding the sweet spot with oven temp is worth the experiments.  My blodgett1000's sweet spot is 540-560.  Higher than that and the pies burn on the bottom. I also have cooked them at 450, by mistake, and they came out great.   Gabolgo (Sp?) who is a member here and owns a shop in Conneticut talked about lower temp bakes and how good pies can come out.   IMO much of the NY pizzas pictured on this forum are too burned for my taste.  I grew up with typical NY style pies and they baked at 500-550 with little to no rim/bottom burnt.  That to me is a classic NY pie.  I think most here focus on the coal oven pies of NY and back in my day there were only a few and I never ate there.    Walter

Walter,

I am glad I did the experiments too.  It is so hard to know really how any pizza will bake in different ovens, different formulations and so many other variables.  I know you have found your sweet spot.  I can't believe it has taken me so much fooling around for so many years to find something that works okay for the pizzas I want to make for market.  I appreciate your posting about using cold water to make pizza dough.  I did not know that gabaghool used lower bake temperatures, or least did not recall that he posted about that.  Thanks for posting that you used 450 degrees F by mistake and the pizzas still came out great.  I posted before on this thread that my customers are not fond of darker rim crusts or bottom crusts.  I think that is classic NY style pie too with lighter rim crust and even browning on the bottom crust.  I really liked the pizzas yesterday but would like to get a little more rim rise.  I guess I am asking for too much when using lower bake temperatures.  I should finally stop fiddling around and be satisfied. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on April 30, 2014, 03:35:40 PM
Another thing is there is almost no bubbling in the middle even if the dough balls are opened almost cold from the prep fridge.  I know Walter also reported on that before.  Do you or Walter have any ideas how that can be?
Norma,

If I had to guess, I would say that it perhaps was the use of a small amount of yeast and the cold water that limited the fermentation after four days to the point where bubbling was avoided. You will also recall that Walter was able to extend his fermentation out to seven days or so, so that would suggest that there was more fermentation left in his dough balls before things started to fall apart. I also learned from the De Lorenzo dough experiments, where we were trying to prevent bubbling from occurring, but where the finished dough temperatures were around 80 degrees F, that the amount of yeast had to be small and the hydration value had to be less than about 57-58% to keep the bubbling from forming, even after a decent temper time.

Peter

 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: tinroofrusted on April 30, 2014, 04:54:59 PM
Norma, that is so great that the people at your mother's house settlement were fans of your boardwalk style pizzas. It's always nice to receive some recognition after all of your hard work! 

Best regards, 

TinRoof
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: scott123 on April 30, 2014, 05:08:40 PM
Gabolgo (Sp?) who is a member here and owns a shop in Conneticut talked about lower temp bakes and how good pies can come out.   IMO much of the NY pizzas pictured on this forum are too burned for my taste.  I grew up with typical NY style pies and they baked at 500-550 with little to no rim/bottom burnt.  That to me is a classic NY pie.  I think most here focus on the coal oven pies of NY and back in my day there were only a few and I never ate there.

Walter, I don't think Gabaghool (Nick) is a proponent for low temp bakes.  He is a big fan of Zuppardi's (as am I), and they bake for 10+ minutes, and, during the bake, they seem to move the pie around a lot. I have a theory that they start on a very hot area, which provides the characteristic undercrust contrast and puff of a fast bake, then finish the pie in a cooler area to crisp it up.  But that's just a theory and Zuppardi's is NY style ish, but, with the crispiness, it's a bit outside the tradition.  I'm reasonably certain that Nick understands the oven spring advantages of fast bakes.

New Haven coal is a little different, but, for the most part, I detest NY coal oven pizza. Like you, I never went to these places in my youth. At some point, I'm pretty sure some of them did put out a great pie (like Totonno's), but apathy has set in and they've become nothing more than tourist traps.

Because coal ovens tend to be so inconsistent, with baking times as little as 3 but as long as 9 minutes, defining coal style pizza is an extremely difficult task, and, because NY coal style pizza is in such a sorry state, I don't think it's worth taking the time to define.  'Neo-NY' is a far more easier style to define because it's bake time based- it's basically between 2 and 4 minutes.  It's in this realm where you seem some contrast, typically some char, but not on the level of Neapolitan. Some forum members pies are Neo-NYish, but not all.  Out of the NY pies posted, I'd still guess that Neo-NY is in the minority.

Char tends to be a bit polarizing, especially for people that are conditioned towards uncharred pizza. Neapolitan is, imo, connoisseur pizza- more artisanal, typically targeted towards a more discriminating (and wealthier) palate. NY, on the other hand, is more accessible, more blue collar, more crowd pleasing- at least, if done well.  4 minutes is such a magical mark because it's just long enough so the undercrust doesn't get too contrast-y, and yet not so long that oven spring is sacrificed. It's all of that crowd pleasing accessibility combined with as much oven spring/character/artistry that can possibly be achieved without moving into the polarizing aspect of char. The only thing you sacrifice at 4 minutes is crispiness- which, for me, was never really a component of the pizza I grew up with.

As a child, I obviously never stood next to a pizza oven with a stopwatch, but, from conversations with the people at Pizza Town in Elmwood Park and confirmed timings from friends going back to the late nineties, I'm confident that they haven't changed their 4 minute bake time since the 60s.  The label on their oven, like many, has long gone, so I don't know what brand/model they're working with, but if Pizza Town has an oven that can do balanced 4 minute bakes, I'm confident other far older ovens could as well.

Joe's, the most famous NY style pizzeria in NY, was, in the 80s, cranking out very fast pies- and quite possibly the best pies I've ever tasted. They were very thin, very golden brown, very delicate.  Even back in the 80s, the lines were huge, and they had to get a lot of pies out very quickly. I don't know if they were down to 4 minutes, but, with the demand they were working with and the size of their ovens, they couldn't have survived at 7 minute bakes.

Norma and your pies are the exception to the rule (most likely because of your advanced dough abilities), but when you start going much north of 6 minutes, the crusts start losing a lot of character, a lot of life. Most of what you find in the NY area these days is dense, excessively chewy and lifeless. Most of what you found in the 60s, 70s and 80s, though, was puffy and glorious.  When I take my memories of the all the places I used to go to in NE NJ as a teenager and all of the outer boroughs as a young adult, and combine those with my current sensory perception of what 4 minute pies taste like, it points to, imo, an inescapable conclusion. 

There has to be some reason why the pizza back then was so uniformly fantastic and the pizza now, so uniformly bad.  To me, bake time seems to be the most sensible culprit.

A lot of the evidence regarding bake times is, unfortunately, anecdotal and filtered through the lens of distant memories.  I will tell you this, though.  If you grew up in this area in the 60s, 70s, or 80s, when you taste your first balanced 4 minute bake, a massive light tends to go off.
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 30, 2014, 05:22:29 PM
Norma,

If I had to guess, I would say that it perhaps was the use of a small amount of yeast and the cold water that limited the fermentation after four days to the point where bubbling was avoided. You will also recall that Walter was able to extend his fermentation out to seven days or so, so that would suggest that there was more fermentation left in his dough balls before things started to fall apart. I also learned from the De Lorenzo dough experiments, where we were trying to prevent bubbling from occurring, but where the finished dough temperatures were around 80 degrees F, that the amount of yeast had to be small and the hydration value had to be less than about 57-58% to keep the bubbling from forming, even after a decent temper time.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for letting me know that perhaps you think it was the small amount of yeast combined with the cold water, that then limited the fermentation after four day to the point where the bubbling was avoided.  I now recall that Walter was able to extend his fermentation out to about 7 days.  I didn't think about the De Lorenzo dough experiments, but now recall that the yeast amount had to be small and the hydration had to be less to keep the bubbling from forming after a decent temper time.

I don't know if this article was posted before here on the forum.  Dider Rosada talks about water functions in baking.  http://www.elclubdelpan.com/en/master_book/water-functions-baking (http://www.elclubdelpan.com/en/master_book/water-functions-baking)

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 30, 2014, 05:26:33 PM
Norma, that is so great that the people at your mother's house settlement were fans of your boardwalk style pizzas. It's always nice to receive some recognition after all of your hard work! 

Best regards, 

TinRoof

TinRoof,

Only the son so far really likes my boardwalk style of pizzas.  The other members of the family said they are going to come and try them.  I am not finished working on a real boardwalk style of pizza, but I am satisfied for market with the 4-day cold fermentation if things keep working out.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on April 30, 2014, 08:15:41 PM
Walter,

I am glad I did the experiments too.  It is so hard to know really how any pizza will bake in different ovens, different formulations and so many other variables.  I know you have found your sweet spot.  I can't believe it has taken me so much fooling around for so many years to find something that works okay for the pizzas I want to make for market.  I appreciate your posting about using cold water to make pizza dough.  I did not know that gabaghool used lower bake temperatures, or least did not recall that he posted about that.  Thanks for posting that you used 450 degrees F by mistake and the pizzas still came out great.  I posted before on this thread that my customers are not fond of darker rim crusts or bottom crusts.  I think that is classic NY style pie too with lighter rim crust and even browning on the bottom crust.  I really liked the pizzas yesterday but would like to get a little more rim rise.  I guess I am asking for too much when using lower bake temperatures.  I should finally stop fiddling around and be satisfied. 

Norma

Norma/Scott:  Gabaghool bakes in blodgett 1000's and at the same temps I do.  He told me he has had great pies at low bakes as well. 

Norma:  All your fiddling has made you very smart with dough.  Most people want a recipe that is reproducable right off with great results.  To fiddle like you do teaches the depth of the process of making pizza.  Great cooks are forever learning, changing, and failing.  You can teach a person to make pizzas in a few weeks in a commercial setting but put in all the million other things that go on in making pizza's in a pizzeria and it takes a lifetime to really get good.  That is why 99% of all pizzerias turn out crap IMO.   They are maned by people with no depth and they think they are masters.  It is typical of our info age where anyone can become an expert in 10 minutes.  To really get it you have to be born into it, or in your case, just go way deep into trying all sorts of stuff.  That is old school and old school is fading out quick.  Walter

Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 30, 2014, 09:33:17 PM
Norma/Scott:  Gabaghool bakes in blodgett 1000's and at the same temps I do.  He told me he has had great pies at low bakes as well. 

Norma:  All your fiddling has made you very smart with dough.  Most people want a recipe that is reproducable right off with great results.  To fiddle like you do teaches the depth of the process of making pizza.  Great cooks are forever learning, changing, and failing.  You can teach a person to make pizzas in a few weeks in a commercial setting but put in all the million other things that go on in making pizza's in a pizzeria and it takes a lifetime to really get good.  That is why 99% of all pizzerias turn out crap IMO.   They are maned by people with no depth and they think they are masters.  It is typical of our info age where anyone can become an expert in 10 minutes.  To really get it you have to be born into it, or in your case, just go way deep into trying all sorts of stuff.  That is old school and old school is fading out quick.  Walter

Walter,

Thanks for telling us that Gabaghool also bakes in Blodgett 1000's and at the same temperatures you do and told you he has had great pies at low bakes as well.  Do you think it is the deck ovens that produce better pizzas if the temperatures are right for the formulations?  I am starting to believe that is the case and no really high temperatures are needed in deck ovens to make really good NY pizzas.

I know a lot of people want a recipe that is reproducible right off with great results.  I might have became somewhat smarter about dough but I still have a lot to learn.  I think your analogy of great cooks are forever learning, changing and failing is a very good one.  I think it also applies to pizza.  I know about the many things in a commercial setting that can change but did not figure everything out yet.  I also believe that old school is fading fast and that is why more NYC pizzas aren't better and have declined.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on April 30, 2014, 10:29:56 PM
Walter and anyone that might be interested,

I looked through some of gabaghool's earlier posts and found this post at Reply 18 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11344.msg106387#msg106387 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11344.msg106387#msg106387)  about using cold water to make dough and how to ferment.  And his oven temperature and bake time at Reply 3 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=15411.msg151877#msg151877 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=15411.msg151877#msg151877)   I did not look through anymore of gabaghool's posts but might.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on May 01, 2014, 06:18:12 AM
Walter,

Thanks for telling us that Gabaghool also bakes in Blodgett 1000's and at the same temperatures you do and told you he has had great pies at low bakes as well.  Do you think it is the deck ovens that produce better pizzas if the temperatures are right for the formulations?  I am starting to believe that is the case and no really high temperatures are needed in deck ovens to make really good NY pizzas.

I know a lot of people want a recipe that is reproducible right off with great results.  I might have became somewhat smarter about dough but I still have a lot to learn.  I think your analogy of great cooks are forever learning, changing and failing is a very good one.  I think it also applies to pizza.  I know about the many things in a commercial setting that can change but did not figure everything out yet.  I also believe that old school is fading fast and that is why more NYC pizzas aren't better and have declined.

Norma

Norma:  IMO ovens are critical as you really get deep into making a great pie.  Conversely one can make an oven like yours work, as you regularly show, if they are willing to experiment to find the sweet spot.   Thanks for those links too.  It confirms what I do and see with our ovens and recipes.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: scott123 on May 01, 2014, 07:23:27 AM
And his oven temperature and bake time at Reply 3 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=15411.msg151877#msg151877 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=15411.msg151877#msg151877)

Norma, thanks for the link.

550 is the STANDARD for pizza places....or at least GOOD pizza places.....WITHOUT PANS.  But it ISN'T OPTIMAL.  For the pie I WANT to do.

Walter, as you can see, Nick can be a big fan of the Blodgett 1000s he uses and be very happy with the product he puts out while still understanding the advantages of faster bake times- and aspire towards them- as he's doing here.
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 01, 2014, 08:42:48 AM
Norma:  IMO ovens are critical as you really get deep into making a great pie.  Conversely one can make an oven like yours work, as you regularly show, if they are willing to experiment to find the sweet spot.   Thanks for those links too.  It confirms what I do and see with our ovens and recipes.  Walter

Walter,

Thanks for saying that ovens are critical when you really get deep into making a great pie.  I know you ovens work much better than mine does. 

This is a photo posted last evening on facebook of a slice of Williamsburg Pizza.  I don't think it looks much different than our slices.  I just wonder how it would taste.  This is  Williamsburg Pizza facebook page.   https://www.facebook.com/WilliamsburgPizza (https://www.facebook.com/WilliamsburgPizza) I sure don't see any char on their pizzas.   https://www.facebook.com/WilliamsburgPizza/photos_stream (https://www.facebook.com/WilliamsburgPizza/photos_stream)

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 01, 2014, 09:13:58 AM
I posted before on this thread that my customers are not fond of darker rim crusts or bottom crusts.  I think that is classic NY style pie too with lighter rim crust and even browning on the bottom crust.  I really liked the pizzas yesterday but would like to get a little more rim rise.  I guess I am asking for too much when using lower bake temperatures.  I should finally stop fiddling around and be satisfied. 
Norma,

Can you remind me again of the hydration value you used for the above pizzas, and also the amounts of oil and sugar and the type/brand of flour?

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: scott123 on May 01, 2014, 09:16:18 AM
I sure don't see any char on their pizzas.

I do :)

That's too much char for me, and, if I'm hearing Walter correctly, it's too much for him as well.
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 01, 2014, 09:50:13 AM
Norma,

Can you remind me again of the hydration value you used for the above pizzas, and also the amounts of oil and sugar and the type/brand of flour?

Peter


Peter,

I used this formulation.

Flour GM Full Strength bleached and bromated
Hydration 62%
IDY 0.17%
Salt 1.75% Morton's Kosher
Oil 1.5%
Sugar 0.85%

Size of pizza was 16.5”, but I stretched bigger than that size.  Dough ball weights were 1.07 lbs.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 01, 2014, 09:58:09 AM
I do :)

That's too much char for me, and, if I'm hearing Walter correctly, it's too much for him as well.

Scott,

I did not look at a close up of the photo you posted.  I agree that is too much char for me too for a NY pizza.  Thanks for posting the photo!

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on May 01, 2014, 10:35:16 AM
I do :)

That's too much char for me, and, if I'm hearing Walter correctly, it's too much for him as well.

In my shop I call that DNS - do not serve.   I never saw pizza with a bottom like that as a kid but did see tons with a top like it.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 01, 2014, 10:36:52 AM
I used this formulation.

Flour GM Full Strength bleached and bromated
Hydration 62%
IDY 0.17%
Salt 1.75% Morton's Kosher
Oil 1.5%
Sugar 0.85%

Size of pizza was 16.5”, but I stretched bigger than that size.  Dough ball weights were 1.07 lbs.

Norma
Norma,

There is a delicate balance between the hydration of a dough and the bake temperature and time used to bake the pizza made from that dough. For example, an increase in the hydration might lead to a softer and more expandable crumb but you may need a higher bake temperature to benefit from that characteristic. But the higher bake temperature may mean that the bottom crust bakes up and browns too fast before the top crust is of the desired color. So, you may lose some of the benefits that you might ordinarily get using a lower bake temperature and a longer bake time. In your case, to get a larger rim you could increase the hydration by a percent to 63% and lower the oil to 1%. You might also try sifting the flour. This is something I did when I was conducting my late IDY addition experiments. I found that sifting the flour increased the hydration capacity of the flour and allowed me to use a few percent more water (a total of 65%) than I would have otherwise been able to use with the particular flour (high-gluten flour) I was using. The improved hydration also meant that the dough didn't feel as wet as it would have had I not sifted the flour. I was reminded of the sifting possibility recently when I was reading an article about how Domino's makes its dough in the UK. The article mentioned the use of sifters from Great Western that presumably sift the flour, and maybe even other dry ingredients. There are perhaps many reasons for doing this but one of them might be to achieve better hydration of the flour. You might recall that member November always sifted his flours and he was not the type to do something without a good technical reason.

At this point, you are perhaps in the tweaking stage and you don't want to go too far with the changes. But a tweak here and there might get you closer to your end game.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 01, 2014, 01:12:13 PM
Norma,

There is a delicate balance between the hydration of a dough and the bake temperature and time used to bake the pizza made from that dough. For example, an increase in the hydration might lead to a softer and more expandable crumb but you may need a higher bake temperature to benefit from that characteristic. But the higher bake temperature may mean that the bottom crust bakes up and browns too fast before the top crust is of the desired color. So, you may lose some of the benefits that you might ordinarily get using a lower bake temperature and a longer bake time. In your case, to get a larger rim you could increase the hydration by a percent to 63% and lower the oil to 1%. You might also try sifting the flour. This is something I did when I was conducting my late IDY addition experiments. I found that sifting the flour increased the hydration capacity of the flour and allowed me to use a few percent more water (a total of 65%) than I would have otherwise been able to use with the particular flour (high-gluten flour) I was using. The improved hydration also meant that the dough didn't feel as wet as it would have had I not sifted the flour. I was reminded of the sifting possibility recently when I was reading an article about how Domino's makes its dough in the UK. The article mentioned the use of sifters from Great Western that presumably sift the flour, and maybe even other dry ingredients. There are perhaps many reasons for doing this but one of them might be to achieve better hydration of the flour. You might recall that member November always sifted his flours and he was not the type to do something without a good technical reason.

At this point, you are perhaps in the tweaking stage and you don't want to go too far with the changes. But a tweak here and there might get you closer to your end game.

Peter

Peter,

I understand that is a delicate balance between the hydration of a dough, the bake temperature and time
used to bake the pizza from that dough.  Thanks for your other explanations too.  I can try 63% hydration, lower the oil amount to 1% and sift the flour.  I recall different times when you sifted the flour to allow you to use few percent more water in different experiments.  That is interesting that Domino's article mentioned sifters that presumably sifted the flour.  I agree that might be a reason to be able to achieve better hydration of the flour.  I do recall that November always sifted his flours and he was not the type to do something without a good technical reason. 

The way I look at it is doesn't hurt to do another experiment. 

I forgot until I did a search but I did do a 8-day cold fermentation back in my very earlier years of dough learning at Reply 194 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg84593#msg84593 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg84593#msg84593) ThunderStik posted that I would need to use a small amount of yeast at Reply 164 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg83954#msg83954 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg83954#msg83954) I did have a low final dough temperature when I mixed that dough at reply 173 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg84152#msg84152 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg84152#msg84152) I was resisting sifting flour in that experiment but will try sifting this time.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on May 01, 2014, 02:06:25 PM
Today I made a few dough balls with cake yeast like back in the old days...........  It rose on the bench for 3 hours and we baked it.  It looks a lot like the pies I grew  up eating but the camera made the crust look much lighter than it was.  The flavor was passable but not near as good as a multi day cold ferment.  No one noticed that ate it but Paige and myself.   The cake yeast imparted a bit more flavor than IDY or ADY to my  taste buds.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 01, 2014, 05:44:28 PM
Today I made a few dough balls with cake yeast like back in the old days...........  It rose on the bench for 3 hours and we baked it.  It looks a lot like the pies I grew  up eating but the camera made the crust look much lighter than it was.  The flavor was passable but not near as good as a multi day cold ferment.  No one noticed that ate it but Paige and myself.   The cake yeast imparted a bit more flavor than IDY or ADY to my  taste buds.  Walter

Walter,

Your cake yeast dough pizzas look very good.  I find that interesting that no one noticed the differences in taste from your longer cold fermented doughs except Paige and yourself.  I am wondering what will happen at market with my regular customers and if they will be able to taste any differences in 4-day cold fermented dough pizza crusts compared to the one day cold fermented crusts.  That one RV man told me he could notice the difference but then he was a chef.

I want to ask you question about the cheese you put on after the bake.  Did you ever try not putting it on to see what the cheese pizzas taste like?  The reason I am asking is because the pizza I made with spicy soppressata and Parmigiano-Reggiano on Tuesday changed the whole flavor of my sauce.  The sauce still tasted good, but there was a whole different flavor profile and it was thicker.   

As I posted before my camera does not take the best photos of my pizza either under artificial lighting.  My daughter just purchased a much better Nikon camera today but I don't think she will let me take it to market.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 01, 2014, 05:48:26 PM
I had to go to the webrestaurant store today and I picked up another thermometer and a better sifter.  I could not get my other digital thermometer to work even after replacing a battery.  The new sifter should make sifting flour easier.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 01, 2014, 06:10:12 PM
I am wondering what will happen at market with my regular customers and if they will be able to taste any differences in 4-day cold fermented dough pizza crusts compared to the one day cold fermented crusts.  That one RV man told me he could notice the difference but then he was a chef.
Norma,

You have been making very good pizzas at market for some time. I would imagine that the average visitor at market who wants pizza isn't expecting a pizza of the high quality that you produce. But I don't see that as a good enough reason to lower the quality of your pizzas. But, that said, I might think differently if, say, it took a disproportionate effort on your part to make the four-day cold fermented dough as opposed to a one-day cold fermented dough. If the difference in effort is slight, I would rather go with the better quality product even if few perceive it. In the long run, I think quality wins out.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on May 01, 2014, 06:49:33 PM
Walter,

Your cake yeast dough pizzas look very good.  I find that interesting that no one noticed the differences in taste from your longer cold fermented doughs except Paige and yourself.  I am wondering what will happen at market with my regular customers and if they will be able to taste any differences in 4-day cold fermented dough pizza crusts compared to the one day cold fermented crusts.  That one RV man told me he could notice the difference but then he was a chef.

I want to ask you question about the cheese you put on after the bake.  Did you ever try not putting it on to see what the cheese pizzas taste like?  The reason I am asking is because the pizza I made with spicy soppressata and Parmigiano-Reggiano on Tuesday changed the whole flavor of my sauce.  The sauce still tasted good, but there was a whole different flavor profile and it was thicker.   

As I posted before my camera does not take the best photos of my pizza either under artificial lighting.  My daughter just purchased a much better Nikon camera today but I don't think she will let me take it to market.

Norma

Norma:  I bet I could do same day, 3 hour rise dough, and sell as many pizzas as we do now with the multi day dough.  The main problem for me woul be what do I eat for lunch?  If I don't like it I can't make it.  That was a constant problem when I found a pizzeria hiring back in my music days.  This was in TX and CA.  None made a decent pie and I just wouldn't work there.  I snuck in making pizzas in the bakeries that had deck ovens and many did have the old ovens back then that they baked breads direct on the stones and we even baked cakes in them. 

I have eaten my pizzas without the Parmigiano-Reggiano or grana padano on them.  They taste more traditional to a NY/NJ pie- more bland tasting.  I haven't noticed the sauce taste changing or the texture of the sauce.  I grate those cheeses (use whatever one we have at the moment) as soon as the pies come out of the oven and before slicing.  Most places would not add any cheese to the pies other than mozz.  Some would sprinkle romano because I think it was the cheaper than the ones we use.  I am glad you got a potentially better camera to use.  The 3 hour dough pie I posted above looked very close to the ones you and scott posted.  A good camera and proper lighting makes a huge difference in how realistic the pie will look.  I read somewhere that you should hire a top photographer for pictures of your products.  Walter

Do you sift your flour?   I never  have.
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 01, 2014, 09:56:49 PM
Norma,

You have been making very good pizzas at market for some time. I would imagine that the average visitor at market who wants pizza isn't expecting a pizza of the high quality that you produce. But I don't see that as a good enough reason to lower the quality of your pizzas. But, that said, I might think differently if, say, it took a disproportionate effort on your part to make the four-day cold fermented dough as opposed to a one-day cold fermented dough. If the difference in effort is slight, I would rather go with the better quality product even if few perceive it. In the long run, I think quality wins out.

Peter

Peter,

You are right that most of the average visitors at market who might want a pizza probably aren't expecting the kinds of pizzas I am making.  Of the two places that did sell pizzas only one still tries to sell theirs since I have been making pizzas.  I think I posted a photo somewhere of the other pizzas at market.  I have numerous customers that still want me to open a regular pizzeria.  Every week someone mentions to me that I should open a regular pizzeria and say I would be the best pizzeria around our area and would make a killing.  There are regular customers that also still want me to open a pizzeria in the food court at Park City Mall.  I always tell them that I am too old to start an adventure like that and maybe if I were younger I might think about it.  Being realistic, I would not have the money to open a regular pizzeria. 

I have always wanted to make a better pizza and that is why I have gone on so many journeys in pizza making to find what might be best for market and my customers.  I appreciate that you have also gone along on all those experimental journeys and helped me whenever you could.  I recall at Craig's Pizza Summit that you said to me why didn't I stay on the journey of my market pizzas.  At that time I thought I had been somewhat successful because I had finally been able to make a boardwalk style pizza and a Detroit style pizza.  Looking back, I really didn't stay the course long enough to fully understand how to make a better crust for the boardwalk style pizzas.  I probably drive you nuts in all my jumping around. 

I don't think it will be any more effort to make 4-day cold fermented doughs.  I normally go to market on Friday's to clean and replace anything that needs to be restocked.  It would make my day at market on Monday's shorter too because all I would have to do is make the Detroit style doughs, shred the cheese and make the sauce.  I think I would be happier if I could make a better quality product even if few perceive it to be better. 

Norma   
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 01, 2014, 10:09:44 PM
Norma:  I bet I could do same day, 3 hour rise dough, and sell as many pizzas as we do now with the multi day dough.  The main problem for me woul be what do I eat for lunch?  If I don't like it I can't make it.  That was a constant problem when I found a pizzeria hiring back in my music days.  This was in TX and CA.  None made a decent pie and I just wouldn't work there.  I snuck in making pizzas in the bakeries that had deck ovens and many did have the old ovens back then that they baked breads direct on the stones and we even baked cakes in them. 

I have eaten my pizzas without the Parmigiano-Reggiano or grana padano on them.  They taste more traditional to a NY/NJ pie- more bland tasting.  I haven't noticed the sauce taste changing or the texture of the sauce.  I grate those cheeses (use whatever one we have at the moment) as soon as the pies come out of the oven and before slicing.  Most places would not add any cheese to the pies other than mozz.  Some would sprinkle romano because I think it was the cheaper than the ones we use.  I am glad you got a potentially better camera to use.  The 3 hour dough pie I posted above looked very close to the ones you and scott posted.  A good camera and proper lighting makes a huge difference in how realistic the pie will look.  I read somewhere that you should hire a top photographer for pictures of your products.  Walter

Do you sift your flour?   I never  have.

Walter,

I see your point is the main problem for you is what would you eat for lunch.  I do know you try your best at everything you do including your pizzas.  Lol about you sneaking making pizzas in the bakeries that had deck ovens.  I can see that would be a problem for you is you could not find a decent pizzeria hiring that you liked in TX and CA. 

Thanks for telling me you haven't noticed the sauce taste changing the texture of the sauce when you add Parmigiano-Reggiano or grana padano on them.  I don't think my daughter will allow me to take her camera to market but I might be able to use it at home.  I have messed up two different cameras from flour at market.  Good to hear that your 3 hour dough pies looked very close to the ones Scott and I posted about.  I am sure a top photographer would be able to take better photos of our pizzas.  The photos below show my daughter's new camera.  Hopefully I will be able to use it at some point in time.

I have sifted flours for experiments but not for market doughs.  The sifted flour experiments were from the advice of Peter, or either when the flour was lumpy.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2014, 06:02:04 PM
The 5-dough ball batch was mixed today with the sifted flour, 63% hydration and 1% oil.  I am not sure why but this batch of dough wanted to climb the spiral hook at market while mixing.  :-\ None of the other 5-dough ball batches recently did that.  The final dough temperature can be seen.  The 5-dough ball batch was mixed the same way, and the same amount of time (expect for pulling the dough off of the hook), as last Friday.  Also another 5-dough ball batch was mixed that was the same formulation as last Friday.  For whatever reason that batch did not climb the hook at all and mixed normally.  I thought at first maybe I must have weighed something out wrong, but I usually save whatever is left.  I then placed the leftover dough in a bag and put it in the prep fridge until another batch is made.  I then weighed both pieces that were leftover after scaling and they both weighed almost exactly the same.  The final dough temperature on the second batch also can be seen.  Both dough pieces after sitting a little felt about the same, but after the mix of the sifted flour batch that dough felt rougher.  Poppy seeds were placed on one dough ball from each batch.  Cold water was pulled out of the deli case for each batch of dough.

I was at market today for a fairly long while so I fired up the oven to see what temperatures there would be when not opening and closing the doors.  The temperatures were between 524-547 degrees F (on different places across the bottom deck) after about 2 hrs.  It can be seen where the dial is set since Tuesday.

Norma 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 03, 2014, 10:38:15 PM
Norma,

In rereading your last post, I think the roughness you referred to in respect of the dough made with the sifted flour may have been due to the improved hydration of the flour, leading to a somewhat drier dough, even with the slightly higher hydration value. I think the use of cold water may also have contributed to a tighter dough because a colder dough is harder to knead than a warm dough although I think the colder dough might have have had a secondary effect on the tightening of the dough since your other dough was also on the cold side and didn't ride up on the hook.

In my experiments using sifted flour, albeit using all three agitators (whisk, flat beater and C hook) with my home KitchenAid stand mixer, I found that I could increase the formula hydration by several percent above the rated absorption values of the flours I tested. Yet, the dough was not wet and it handled well. To cite an example, if you read Reply 56 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg39803#msg39803 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg39803#msg39803) , you will see that I was able to use a hydration value of 65% with a basic all-purpose flour without encountering handling problems. I should add that I did not use the delayed IDY method for the experiments discussed in Reply 56. I also did not use any oil. The experiments basically tested the three agitator method using sifted flour with a high hydration value.

It will be interesting to see what results you get with the dough using the sifted flour.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 03, 2014, 11:14:14 PM
Norma,

In rereading your last post, I think the roughness you referred to in respect of the dough made with the sifted flour may have been due to the improved hydration of the flour, leading to a somewhat drier dough, even with the slightly higher hydration value. I think the use of cold water may also have contributed to a tighter dough because a colder dough is harder to knead than a warm dough although I think the colder dough might have have had a secondary effect on the tightening of the dough since your other dough was also on the cold side and didn't ride up on the hook.

In my experiments using sifted flour, albeit using all three agitators (whisk, flat beater and C hook) with my home KitchenAid stand mixer, I found that I could increase the formula hydration by several percent above the rated absorption values of the flours I tested. Yet, the dough was not wet and it handled well. To cite an example, if you read Reply 56 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg39803#msg39803 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg39803#msg39803) , you will see that I was able to use a hydration value of 65% with a basic all-purpose flour without encountering handling problems. I should add that I did not use the delayed IDY method for the experiments discussed in Reply 56. I also did not use any oil. The experiments basically tested the three agitator method using sifted flour with a high hydration value.

It will be interesting to see what results you get with the dough using the sifted flour.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for you thoughts on why you think there was roughness in the dough made with the sifted flour.  I had that same roughness in a dough I made at home in the Kitchen Aid mixer in one of my experiments using cold water not too long ago, but I attributed that to mixing in the Kitchen Aid.  I was somewhat stumped when the second 5-dough ball batch was made right after the one with the sifted flour (with the same cold water and a little higher final dough temperature), and that dough mixed like a normal dough with no climbing of the spiral hook.  I do use the method that Tom Lehmann advocates sometimes to first mix until the flour, water, salt, IDY and sugar are mixed first, then mix a little and drizzle the oil down the sides to continue mixing at home and at market.  Evelyne's method sounds good.     

Thanks for your link to what you did.  I think your gradually adding the flour might have helped with the hydration level you used in combination with everything else you did.  69% is a really high hydration for KASL and 65% hydration for General Mills Gold Medal is high too.  Your combination of three mixing tools seemed to work well.  I see you learned a lot about about the significance of the dough quality in that post. 

I would like to be able to handle a higher hydration dough at market but I don't want to have sticking issues on the wooden peel when the pizzas get loaded into the oven.

I found out today (when I baked the pizzas with about the same formulation I have been using in this thread in the BS) I did not like the final pizzas as much as I do when they are baked at the lower temperatures in the deck oven. 

Norma 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 03, 2014, 11:19:54 PM
Norma,

Yes, you are correct that adding the flour gradually helps with hydrating the flour, especially with a home stand mixer that is no match for a commercial mixer where you can pretty much dump everything into the mixer bowl. Thanks for noting the impact of the gradual addition of the flour.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 05, 2014, 05:52:20 PM
The first and second photos show how much the (sifted flour, 63% hydration and 1% oil) dough ball fermented until today.  The second and third photos how much the other dough ball fermented until today.  The second dough ball was from the same formulation that was used last week, without the delayed addition of IDY.  This was day 3 into the 4 day cold fermentation for both dough balls.

I saw an article by Tim Huff about how to make a signature dough for pizza.  This is the link to the article if anyone is interested.  http://www.pizzamarketplace.com/article/229203/Scratch-dough-is-the-key-to-a-signature-pizza (http://www.pizzamarketplace.com/article/229203/Scratch-dough-is-the-key-to-a-signature-pizza) 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 05, 2014, 09:06:13 PM
If anyone is interested these are two videos of how the boardwalk dough is mixed for market in the 20 qt. Hobart mixer.  The first video shows how the water, flour, IDY, salt and sugar are mixed on speed one to incorporate the water, flour and other ingredients before the oil is added.  The next video is of how the oil is drizzled along the side of the mixer bowl while the mixer is mixing. 

http://youtu.be/kmver7FmmjI (http://youtu.be/kmver7FmmjI) 

and

http://youtu.be/fODEg4nRh7A (http://youtu.be/fODEg4nRh7A)

The 17 dough ball batch is shown in the one photo below partly balled and scaled.  Sorry, for the floor tiles being off the floor at market in the first video, but that part of the floor is so bumpy (until it can get fixed) that no floor tiles will stick there right now.  The batch of dough in the two videos was for a one day cold ferment.  It can be heard in the second video (after the oil is added) how the dough sloshes around at first. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Chaze215 on May 05, 2014, 09:50:38 PM
What's your normal mix time? 630-7 minutes?
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 05, 2014, 09:58:39 PM
What's your normal mix time? 630-7 minutes?

Chaze,

For the formulation I am using for a NY style dough, the first mix is about 1 minute 30 seconds, or little shorter.  The second mix is about 5 minutes 30 seconds to 6 minutes.  I usually can tell when the dough is mixed okay by watching.  I turned the timer on for the second mix, but sometimes stop the mixer before it goes off.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Chaze215 on May 05, 2014, 10:03:56 PM
Yeah that's what I figured. I forgot to time my last few mixes. Like you said, you can see when is just about done by the looks of it. Kinda gets smooth and shiny. Do you find your mix times are in the same ballpark regardless of water temperature?  ie..cold water for 2 day cold ferment.
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 05, 2014, 10:12:42 PM
Yeah that's what I figured. I forgot to time my last few mixes. Like you said, you can see when is just about done by the looks of it. Kinda gets smooth and shiny. Do you find your mix times are in the same ballpark regardless of water temperature?  ie..cold water for 2 day cold ferment.

Chaze,

You are right that the finished dough kinda looks smooth and shiny when finished mixing.  I do find my mix times are the same regardless of water temperature.  The cold water doughs have all acted the same in mixing except the one that had the sifted flour.  Sometimes when mixing a smaller dough batch it might take a little longer on the second mix because there isn't as much dough mixing.

I used to mix longer (did the egg test) but found the dough balls open up much easier if a shorter mix is done.   

Norma 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 07, 2014, 09:25:20 AM
The sifted flour pizzas did not get more oven spring yesterday, but were moist in the rim crust and did brown decently on the bottom crust. As always the photos of everything really is not as they appeared in person.   

The first set of photos are from the sifted flour, 63% hydration and 1% oil.

In the next set of photos (of the sifted flour pizza), the Bella Francesca low moisture whole milk mozzarella was used with the sauce applied normally (not in a spiral) and hard cheese was shredded on after the bake.  Also fresh basil was used.  Market was very busy yesterday so we did not have a chance to eat a slice of that pizza until many hours later.  The pizza was good after a reheat.  The rim crust were lighter in color on the sifted flour pizzas.  I don't know if that was because so many pizzas were being baked, and so many slices were being reheated or not.  My regular one day cold fermented pizzas did not have the problem of the crusts being lighter though.

I did not have a lot of time to take photos yesterday and sold out of all of the experimental pizzas and regular dough balls around 6:30 PM.  I did have a few Detroit style pizzas that were sold after that.

The dough balls in the plastic bags with the x on them were the ones that were cold fermented for 4 days too.  The photos of them follow the dough ball marked with an x.

The photos of the of dough balls with the poppy seeds on them were taken at 2:46 PM and again at 4:50 PM.  I thought it was interesting that those dough balls that sat out to temper that long did not ferment much at the ambient temperatures of around 79 degrees F.  All of the experimental dough ball opened up well yesterday and a lot easier than the one day cold fermented dough balls.

I asked Steve to give me his honest opinion on if he thought the 4-day cold fermented pizzas tasted a lot better in the crusts.  I already knew what I thought.  Steve said the 4-day cold fermented crusts did taste better, but if he didn't know those dough balls were cold fermented for 4-days he didn't think he would notice the difference in the taste of the crust.  That is the same thing I thought.  In my opinion it also makes a difference in what kind of sauce and cheese are applied to make the final pizza taste good.  I had quite a few customers tell me yesterday they really like the taste of the dough crust in my regular 1-day cold ferment dough pizzas.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 07, 2014, 09:31:24 AM
Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 07, 2014, 09:34:42 AM
Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 07, 2014, 01:47:22 PM
Norma,

Can you identify the dough balls in the last three photos of your last post, and when the photos were taken? I can see that one of them is for the sifted flour dough but I am not sure what the other dough balls are.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 07, 2014, 02:44:40 PM
Norma,

Can you identify the dough balls in the last three photos of your last post, and when the photos were taken? I can see that one of them is for the sifted flour dough but I am not sure what the other dough balls are.

Peter

Peter,

The first photo is of the sifted dough ball when it was taken out of the prep fridge.  The time it was taken out of the prep fridge I really don't know.  When I first looked at the time I thought it said 2:48 PM, but now when I click on that photo in my pictures it says 2:48 AM.  My camera must be off-kilter somehow in the time it took all of the photos. 

The second photo is of the same sifted flour dough balls and the time says 4:50 AM.  The third photo is of the 4-day cold fermented dough ball with the formulation I had used before. That photo says it was taken at 4:51 AM.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 07, 2014, 03:29:55 PM
The first photo is of the sifted dough ball when it was taken out of the prep fridge.  The time it was taken out of the prep fridge I really don't know.  When I first looked at the time I thought it said 2:48 PM, but now when I click on that photo in my pictures it says 2:48 AM.  My camera must be off-kilter somehow in the time it took all of the photos. 

The second photo is of the same sifted flour dough balls and the time says 4:50 AM.  The third photo is of the 4-day cold fermented dough ball with the formulation I had used before. That photo says it was taken at 4:51 AM.

Norma
Norma,

Thank you for the dough ball information.

According to Reply 419 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg314660#msg314660 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg314660#msg314660), it appears that you made the two different dough batches sometime in the afternoon of May 2, which was last Friday. If that is correct, the total fermentation time, including the temper time, was about four days. From the poppy seed spacing for the sifted flour dough, it looks like the dough ball increased in volume by about 67.5% up to the time of tempering and then increased to something just shy of doubling by the end of the temper time. By contrast, the regular 4-day cold fermented dough ball had increased in volume by about 67.5% as of the time that you took the photo of that dough ball.

It is hard to suggest changes to the dough formulation for the sifted flour dough ball to increase the oven spring. And normally I would recommend repeating the experiment to get more data points, especially since you and Steve were so busy yesterday making all of the different pizzas. However, since the sifted flour dough ball behaved nicely and was not overfermenting, it occurs to me that you might get a better oven spring by increasing the amount of yeast. I am thinking of something like 0.22% IDY rather than 0.16% IDY. Everything else would be the same as before as much as possible. Whether that change will improve matters is hard to say. Your environment is subject to many variables that can change from one day to another.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on May 07, 2014, 03:35:27 PM
Norma:  the pies look great!  So it sounds like your regular customers like your 1 day dough and you and Steve were hard pressed to tell a difference between those and the multi day.  Which way you gonna go :) ?  I made some 3 hour dough yesterday and used only some of it.  It  had blown out so I reballed and put three back in the  fridge.  Today I cooked them.  They were now a 24 hour dough.  They came out looking great and tasted ok but I could tell a big difference in the crust flavor with the 3 day dough we used today winning hands down over the cake yeast 1 day reballed.  I say go with what you love the best.  That is what will shine through.  Here are some pictures of the 3 hour dough that was reballed and put in the fridge overnight. They looked a lot like the pizza I grew up with.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 07, 2014, 06:29:07 PM
Norma,

Thank you for the dough ball information.

According to Reply 419 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg314660#msg314660 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg314660#msg314660), it appears that you made the two different dough batches sometime in the afternoon of May 2, which was last Friday. If that is correct, the total fermentation time, including the temper time, was about four days. From the poppy seed spacing for the sifted flour dough, it looks like the dough ball increased in volume by about 67.5% up to the time of tempering and then increased to something just shy of doubling by the end of the temper time. By contrast, the regular 4-day cold fermented dough ball had increased in volume by about 67.5% as of the time that you took the photo of that dough ball.

It is hard to suggest changes to the dough formulation for the sifted flour dough ball to increase the oven spring. And normally I would recommend repeating the experiment to get more data points, especially since you and Steve were so busy yesterday making all of the different pizzas. However, since the sifted flour dough ball behaved nicely and was not overfermenting, it occurs to me that you might get a better oven spring by increasing the amount of yeast. I am thinking of something like 0.22% IDY rather than 0.16% IDY. Everything else would be the same as before as much as possible. Whether that change will improve matters is hard to say. Your environment is subject to many variables that can change from one day to another.

Peter

Peter,

That is correct that the two different dough ball batches were made around 2:30 PM Friday afternoon.  Thanks for telling me how much in volume both sample dough balls fermented using the poppy seed trick. 

Interesting that you think I might get better oven spring by increasing the amount of IDY to something like 0.22%.  I am not sure what temperature the weather is supposed to be at market.  Usually this time of the year inside of market is very cool (in the lower 50's).  Right now I probably won't have to use ice in the cold water from the deli case, but probably would have to do that when it gets a lot warmer.  The flour at market and other ingredients are ever changing depending on the ambient temperatures at market.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 07, 2014, 06:59:07 PM
Norma:  the pies look great!  So it sounds like your regular customers like your 1 day dough and you and Steve were hard pressed to tell a difference between those and the multi day.  Which way you gonna go :) ?  I made some 3 hour dough yesterday and used only some of it.  It  had blown out so I reballed and put three back in the  fridge.  Today I cooked them.  They were now a 24 hour dough.  They came out looking great and tasted ok but I could tell a big difference in the crust flavor with the 3 day dough we used today winning hands down over the cake yeast 1 day reballed.  I say go with what you love the best.  That is what will shine through.  Here are some pictures of the 3 hour dough that was reballed and put in the fridge overnight. They looked a lot like the pizza I grew up with.  Walter

Walter,

Thanks!  My regular customers do like the 1 day dough.  I have no idea why Steve and I are hard pressed to tell the differences in the 4-day cold fermented crusts.  I know we can taste the difference but we thought if we did not know the dough was a 4-day dough we might not have been able to pick that up.  It might be because the 1 day cold fermented rim crusts are soft on the top of the rim crust and easy to eat (even though they do brown some).  The 4-day cold ferment rim crusts are a little chewier with the more evenly brown bottoms.  I know that sounds dumb, but that seems to be what is happening. 

I talked to the market manager yesterday when he stopped by while passing my stand.  I asked him if he knows when the maintenance men are going to have time to repair my flooring.  He had forgot about telling me he would have them do that.  He then recalled after I spoke to him awhile and said that was up to the head maintenance man.  I had talked to the head maintenance man about a month ago about the same thing.  The market manager then called the head maintenance man and we all talked together.  Seems like the flooring might get fixed in the next month or so.  The only thing that would be changed is the area where the plumbing is won't come out because that would be too much of a mess.  The head maintenance man regularly tastes the experimental pizzas I make.  He said last week and again this week the experimental sifted flour and the other 5-day cold fermented pizza crusts were too chewy and he like my normal 1 day cold fermented crust better.  I have no idea what I will finally do about cold fermenting.  I do like the ease of how the longer fermented dough balls open and also how the rim crust mostly are smaller.   

Your pizzas look very good from your experiment.  I am still envious that you have the kind of oven that you do.  I wonder if your oven has anything to do with the taste of the flavor in the crust of a longer cold fermented dough.  I know that might sound crazy but when Steve and I were at Pizza Brain that crust tasted really good (from what I can recall).  I think they might have ovens like you do.  I don't think they would do a multi-day cold ferment.  The rim crust was slightly brown but had some kind of taste I can not really describe. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on May 07, 2014, 07:25:14 PM
Norma: Good luck with getting your floor fixed.  Hopefully it will be a fairly painless experience.  Tell the guy if he fixes it quick and right you will keep him fed in pizza for a long time. I always bribe our maintaince men with food and it works great and I enjoy doing it.  You add sugar to your multiday ferments right?  I don't and think that must have something to do with the dough development.  I think the ovens do play a role in the crust for sure.  I don't like making pizza/bread/bagels in  my home oven.  It is one big hassle compared to the blodgetts.  Most of the old pizzerias ran my ovens back in the 70's and many still do today.  That speaks volumes.  The biggest pro I find is they are as steady as a good watch.  They perform the same day after day with little to no recovery time.  Also the high ceiling in them IMO has something to do with the cooking.  When I run them at just the right temp for the given dough, the tops will start to burn before the bottoms.  This allows for a nice looking pie in that you can get the top looking just right with a decent browning and the bottoms are not charred at all.  I did notice with the pies that I reballed and baked today (I put a tad of sugar in that dough because it was a 3 hour dough) is that the bottoms started browning way to early for my liking.  This was the first time I have put sugar in a pizza dough. the lack of sugar, at least with my ovens, makes for a perfect cooking scenario. With the 63% hydration we get a very easy to chew crust.  I must say though I like my crust to have some chew to it.  I was raised on chewy crusts and bagels.  So our ideal of chewy may be different.  This is what stinks about this internet communication.  We need to sit down and eat and then compare/critique.  Also the original stones are the holy grail of deck oven stones.  They radiat heat better than any of the new ones.   Maybe a bigger space will open for you and you can pick up a 1000 oven.  They go for next to nothing in conveyor land pizza like we have out here in OH.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 07, 2014, 07:37:52 PM
Interesting that you think I might get better oven spring by increasing the amount of IDY to something like 0.22%.  I am not sure what temperature the weather is supposed to be at market.  Usually this time of the year inside of market is very cool (in the lower 50's).  Right now I probably won't have to use ice in the cold water from the deli case, but probably would have to do that when it gets a lot warmer.  The flour at market and other ingredients are ever changing depending on the ambient temperatures at market.

Norma
Norma,

As you know, there are many factors involved in the creation of oven spring and its effect on the size of the rim. In fact, to refresh my own memory, I went back to the list I created on this subject at Reply 515 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg104559#msg104559 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg104559#msg104559). Going down that list, I would say that the factors involved in your case are those numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 10, 11, 12, 13 and 15. Several of these can be dismissed fairly quickly as potential areas of improvement in your case as far as oven spring is involved. For example, your Full Strength flour and its hydration are already reasonably conducive to oven spring, although a higher hydration value would improve oven spring if the oven temperature is high enough to cause the moisture in the skin to be quickly driven out of the skin to cause it to form an elevated rim. Also, the amount of oil that you are using is not high enough to be a material factor in oven spring. Your temper time and duration seem to be fine as far as I can see, and it appears that your forming and shaping of the skins are in good order. The remaining fermentation factors are related to the amount and type of yeast and the duration of cold fermentation. From what I can see, you have not been overloading your pizzas with copious amounts of sauce, cheese and toppings such that there is too much energy imparted to those ingredients and less to the crust to elevate the rim.

As I see it, and assuming that you would not be using an elevated temperature to rapidly cause the moisture in the skin to be turned into steam and thereby form a raised rim, increasing the amount of yeast may be one of the few remaining tools to use to cause the skin to rise faster and also to ferment faster and have increased gas content. However, another thought crossed my mind as I went down the above list that you might also consider. And that is the degree of mixing and kneading. If the dough is kneaded too much, that can also affect oven spring and the size of the rim. I don't know if that is an issue in your case, given that I do not work with commercial mixers, but one way to cut back on the knead time is to let the dough rest midway during its preparation. The rest would be similar to an autolyse rest period, and its effect would be to soften the dough (through protease enzyme activity) and reduce the overall production time.

As between a one-day and multi-day cold fermentation, that is something that you will have to address for your particular situation at market, along with what your customers appear to like. However, I would want to have enough feedback upon which to base any decision as to how you should now proceed.

Peter



Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 07, 2014, 08:36:09 PM
Norma: Good luck with getting your floor fixed.  Hopefully it will be a fairly painless experience.  Tell the guy if he fixes it quick and right you will keep him fed in pizza for a long time. I always bribe our maintaince men with food and it works great and I enjoy doing it.  You add sugar to your multiday ferments right?  I don't and think that must have something to do with the dough development.  I think the ovens do play a role in the crust for sure.  I don't like making pizza/bread/bagels in  my home oven.  It is one big hassle compared to the blodgetts.  Most of the old pizzerias ran my ovens back in the 70's and many still do today.  That speaks volumes.  The biggest pro I find is they are as steady as a good watch.  They perform the same day after day with little to no recovery time.  Also the high ceiling in them IMO has something to do with the cooking.  When I run them at just the right temp for the given dough, the tops will start to burn before the bottoms.  This allows for a nice looking pie in that you can get the top looking just right with a decent browning and the bottoms are not charred at all.  I did notice with the pies that I reballed and baked today (I put a tad of sugar in that dough because it was a 3 hour dough) is that the bottoms started browning way to early for my liking.  This was the first time I have put sugar in a pizza dough. the lack of sugar, at least with my ovens, makes for a perfect cooking scenario. With the 63% hydration we get a very easy to chew crust.  I must say though I like my crust to have some chew to it.  I was raised on chewy crusts and bagels.  So our ideal of chewy may be different.  This is what stinks about this internet communication.  We need to sit down and eat and then compare/critique.  Also the original stones are the holy grail of deck oven stones.  They radiat heat better than any of the new ones.   Maybe a bigger space will open for you and you can pick up a 1000 oven.  They go for next to nothing in conveyor land pizza like we have out here in OH.  Walter

Walter,

I will be a happy camper when, and if my floor gets fixed.  I know the head maintenance man will fix it right.  He used to flip houses and has done all kinds of maintenance work.  We talked about maybe using deck flooring yesterday on my floor.  That cost might be about another 250.00 more if we decide to proceed that way.  He has to see what kind of flooring is installed now and also the height of the flooring to decide which way might be the best way to proceed.  I always treat the maintenance men good.  They always treat me good too.

I do add sugar to my muti-day ferments and to my one day cold ferments.  I really don't know why I started using sugar, but guess I might have like the results for some reason.  I don't know if sugar plays a role in dough development, but if sugars might run out in a longer ferments it can be good to add sugar.  I know how different ovens play a role in how pizzas bake.  I also know Blodgett's are steady like a good watch.  ;D  I can understand how you like to bake in your Blodgetts instead of your home oven.  I am trying to bake a pizza in my BS like in this thread.  I am having problems with the BS too.  :-D  Interesting that when you added a tad of sugar it made your bottom crust start browning to early for your liking.  If you like more chew in your pizzas why don't you still use All Trumps?  I agree that our ideas about chew might be different.   I know that internet communication stinks, because no one can really taste other members pizzas. 

I highly doubt a bigger space will open for me.  A bigger stand just went in for soft pretzel boli's.  I did not know about that stand was going in.  That stand does have water.  After I spend the money to get my floor replaced that will be enough money spent for me right now since I only operate one day a week.  To move would cost a lot more money. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on May 07, 2014, 08:59:50 PM
Norma:  AT can be too chewy/tough for me on the multi day ferments.  I had some doughes come out ok and others way too chewy/tough.  I tried FS on Scott's reccomendation and liked it a lot thus haven't used AT in a while for pizzas.  Our school commercial accounts are just about done for the year so I have more time on my hand to fool around with things.  I might make a few 3 day AT dough balls friday with oil (never used AT with oil) and see how they compare to the FS.  Today I made some challa bread.  The dough came out great and we braided it and as we were brushing on the egg wash I realized I forgot to add the sugar.  Rather than toss it we baked it.  The most obvious visual was the lack of browning and the taste was way too egg flavored without the sugar.  I recently got the Molly Goldberg cookbook and am going to retry it tomorrow using her recipe instead of mine.  Judy and have fallen in love with her shows from the early days of radio/tv.  Anyway, I wonder if the sugar is affecting your finished dough differently with the 24 hour vs. multi day.  I bet Peter could answer that.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 07, 2014, 09:11:16 PM
Norma,

As you know, there are many factors involved in the creation of oven spring and its effect on the size of the rim. In fact, to refresh my own memory, I went back to the list I created on this subject at Reply 515 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg104559#msg104559 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg104559#msg104559). Going down that list, I would say that the factors involved in your case are those numbered 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 10, 11, 12, 13 and 15. Several of these can be dismissed fairly quickly as potential areas of improvement in your case as far as oven spring is involved. For example, your Full Strength flour and its hydration are already reasonably conducive to oven spring, although a higher hydration value would improve oven spring if the oven temperature is high enough to cause the moisture in the skin to be quickly driven out of the skin to cause it to form an elevated rim. Also, the amount of oil that you are using is not high enough to be a material factor in oven spring. Your temper time and duration seem to be fine as far as I can see, and it appears that your forming and shaping of the skins are in good order. The remaining fermentation factors are related to the amount and type of yeast and the duration of cold fermentation. From what I can see, you have not been overloading your pizzas with copious amounts of sauce, cheese and toppings such that there is too much energy imparted to those ingredients and less to the crust to elevate the rim.

As I see it, and assuming that you would not be using an elevated temperature to rapidly cause the moisture in the skin to be turned into steam and thereby form a raised rim, increasing the amount of yeast may be one of the few remaining tools to use to cause the skin to rise faster and also to ferment faster and have increased gas content. However, another thought crossed my mind as I went down the above list that you might also consider. And that is the degree of mixing and kneading. If the dough is kneaded too much, that can also affect oven spring and the size of the rim. I don't know if that is an issue in your case, given that I do not work with commercial mixers, but one way to cut back on the knead time is to let the dough rest midway during its preparation. The rest would be similar to an autolyse rest period, and its effect would be to soften the dough (through protease enzyme activity) and reduce the overall production time.

As between a one-day and multi-day cold fermentation, that is something that you will have to address for your particular situation at market, along with what your customers appear to like. However, I would want to have enough feedback upon which to base any decision as to how you should now proceed.

Peter

Peter,

Yes, I do know that many factors are involved in the creation of oven spring and it effect on the size of the rim.  Thank you for going back to Reply 515 to refresh your memory on all that does go into creating good oven spring and how those factors apply to my multi-day pizzas.  I am not adding any other dressings other than cheese, sauce and pepperoni anymore, except to some of the experimental pizzas.  I stopped using sausage awhile ago when I became busier. 

I understand about adding a little more yeast for the 4-day cold ferment and how that might help.  I don't know if how I mix is right or not.  When I mix the first time I let the dough sit in the mixer bowl until I weigh out the ingredients for the next batch in my regular one day cold fermented dough.  At this time of the year I let the dough balls sit out until I mix, scale, ball and oil the next batch of dough.  Is my letting the dough sit until I weigh out the ingredients for the next batch like resting it, or do you think I need to do more resting in the middle of the second mix?  Maybe I am not resting at the right time to see if that would help.

Also I wanted to add since I am busier how much the doors are opened and shut on my oven.  I always wonder if my oven can keep up with all the pizzas going in and out and all the reheated slices.  It all seems to work out, but guess that can be another problem for me in getting consistently in all of my pizzas.  I sold more whole pizzas yesterday than I ever have.  I could not even keep one slice in the revolving rack for a long while.  I am beginning to wonder how long my body will take those busy days when the weather gets warmer.

I know I am not decided on what I really want to do about a 1 day or multi-day cold ferment.  I will just wait and see what happens and if customers do say they like the multi-day cold fermented crusts better.   Also I think I should know if I can make a better pizza from a 4-day cold ferment.

Norma   
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 07, 2014, 09:18:06 PM
Norma:  AT can be too chewy/tough for me on the multi day ferments.  I had some doughes come out ok and others way too chewy/tough.  I tried FS on Scott's reccomendation and liked it a lot thus haven't used AT in a while for pizzas.  Our school commercial accounts are just about done for the year so I have more time on my hand to fool around with things.  I might make a few 3 day AT dough balls friday with oil (never used AT with oil) and see how they compare to the FS.  Today I made some challa bread.  The dough came out great and we braided it and as we were brushing on the egg wash I realized I forgot to add the sugar.  Rather than toss it we baked it.  The most obvious visual was the lack of browning and the taste was way too egg flavored without the sugar.  I recently got the Molly Goldberg cookbook and am going to retry it tomorrow using her recipe instead of mine.  Judy and have fallen in love with her shows from the early days of radio/tv.  Anyway, I wonder if the sugar is affecting your finished dough differently with the 24 hour vs. multi day.  I bet Peter could answer that.  Walter

Walter,

Thanks for telling me what you experienced in your multi-day ferments with All Trumps.  I know All Trumps can make the dough more chewy, but that is something I never seemed to have problems with when using All Trumps or KASL.  I am glad you like GM Full Strength since Scott recommended it to you.  Challa bread sounds very good.  :P  I look forward to your progess with that. 

I have no idea is sugar is affecting my finished dough differently with the 1 day cold ferment versus the 4-day cold ferment.  There are too many variables for me to figure everything out. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 07, 2014, 09:30:02 PM
Walter,

My recollection is that Norma started to add sugar to her dough, at my suggestion, after she indicated at Reply 163 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg310249#msg310249 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg310249#msg310249) that her long, cold fermented doughs did not have sufficient final crust coloration. Along the lines suggested by Tom Lehmann, I suggested in Reply 174 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg310446#msg310446 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg310446#msg310446) that Norma use 2% sugar. Tom usually suggests 1-2% sugar for doughs that are to undergo more than two days of cold fermentation, but I wanted to go the full 2% figure to see if that would be too much and, if so, to use that fact to help us decide on a lesser amount of sugar to use. As it turned out, the 2% sugar was too much, and eventually she went to 0.85% sugar.

I believe that what Norma experienced with crust coloration for her 4-day cold fermented doughs and what I believe you experienced with your reballed 3-hour dough with sugar added can be explained by Tom Lehmann's PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/suger-in-dough.4669/#post-26890 (http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/suger-in-dough.4669/#post-26890). In your case, I believe that it was the caramelization of the sugar that you added to the dough that caused the early browning of the crust.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 07, 2014, 09:42:12 PM
When I mix the first time I let the dough sit in the mixer bowl until I weigh out the ingredients for the next batch in my regular one day cold fermented dough.  At this time of the year I let the dough balls sit out until I mix, scale, ball and oil the next batch of dough.  Is my letting the dough sit until I weigh out the ingredients for the next batch like resting it, or do you think I need to do more resting in the middle of the second mix?  Maybe I am not resting at the right time to see if that would help.
Norma,

I was looking at what you have been doing much like an autolyse where the dough is allowed to rest for a brief period to allow the protease enzymes to attack and soften the gluten matrix. One of the benefits of this approach is to shorten the total dough preparation time by reducing the total amount of knead time. This means that you want to introduce the rest period midway through the dough preparation process. I believe that you have been doing something like this, but for a somewhat different reason, with the "double kneading" of the Detroit style doughs.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 07, 2014, 10:26:27 PM
Norma,

I was looking at what you have been doing much like an autolyse where the dough is allowed to rest for a brief period to allow the protease enzymes to attack and soften the gluten matrix. One of the benefits of this approach is to shorten the total dough preparation time by reducing the total amount of knead time. This means that you want to introduce the rest period midway through the dough preparation process. I believe that you have been doing something like this, but for a somewhat different reason, with the "double kneading" of the Detroit style doughs.

Peter

Peter,

I thought what I was doing with letting the water hydrate the flour after the first mix would be something like I do with the Detroit style doughs.  Do you think I should stop mixing as I do and maybe add the oil at a different time and then introduce the rest period midway though the dough making process.  Maybe you have something else in mind.  How long should the rest period be?

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: bigMoose on May 08, 2014, 09:11:19 AM
It's funny how our tastes change...  ;D   I am coming over to NY style.  I love the texture and flavor you get in the cornice.  I now have a dough ball fermenting with 1.5% oil in it.

Now this may be old hat for all of you, but I thought I would share a "tip" I stumbled upon.  I hate cleaning up things, and measuring oil is particularly messy.  I have been using squirt plastic bottles for my oils and vinegars for while.  I finally figured that I could tare out the olive oil bottle on my scale, squirt some around the dough ball in the KA, then re weigh it on the scale.  The scale goes negative, but indicates the gram amount of oil that I squirted into the KA.  Best to under squirt then do a little more to bring it up to the recipe amount.  It results in no extra clean up required!
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 08, 2014, 09:46:27 AM
It's funny how our tastes change...  ;D   I am coming over to NY style.  I love the texture and flavor you get in the cornice.  I now have a dough ball fermenting with 1.5% oil in it.

Now this may be old hat for all of you, but I thought I would share a "tip" I stumbled upon.  I hate cleaning up things, and measuring oil is particularly messy.  I have been using squirt plastic bottles for my oils and vinegars for while.  I finally figured that I could tare out the olive oil bottle on my scale, squirt some around the dough ball in the KA, then re weigh it on the scale.  The scale goes negative, but indicates the gram amount of oil that I squirted into the KA.  Best to under squirt then do a little more to bring it up to the recipe amount.  It results in no extra clean up required!

Dave,

I also agree it is funny how our tastes change.  I started with making NY style pizzas and they are the ones I grew up on (I guess a Mack's pizza could be called NY style).  I have switched to other styles many times, but find myself coming back to NY style pizzas most of the time. 

Will be interesting to see if you like 1.5% oil in your NY style dough pizza.

Thanks for your tip on using oil with no clean up.  8)

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 08, 2014, 09:50:54 AM
I thought what I was doing with letting the water hydrate the flour after the first mix would be something like I do with the Detroit style doughs.  Do you think I should stop mixing as I do and maybe add the oil at a different time and then introduce the rest period midway though the dough making process.  Maybe you have something else in mind.  How long should the rest period be?
Norma,

For now, I think I would make the dough as you have been making it in your Hobart mixer based on your intimate familiarity with that mixer. I think I would let the dough rest after the initial mix/knead but before you add the oil. That rest period might be, say, 10-15 minutes at most. As a frame of reference, if you read Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3220.msg74624;topicseen#msg74624 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3220.msg74624;topicseen#msg74624), you will see the autolyse rest periods that Prof. Calvel used for various ones of his dough creations, and those rest periods were for dough batches of around 75 pounds.

I think the factor that most governs the matter of oven spring in your case is the oven temperature. Once you set that variable to a particular value, along with the accompanying bake duration, that pretty much limits what you can do thereafter to essentially two possibilities: modifying the dough formulation itself and/or the way the dough is made. Increasing the amount of yeast and trying to keep the dough from overkneading are two such possible changes. If those changes don't yield the desired results, as reflected in a nicely risen rim, then you have to look for other solutions. For example, you might consider using a classic Calvel autolyse. Or you might add the oil to the water, as member November advocates, not after the initial mix/knead. But, either way, 1% oil is not going to be a game changer.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 08, 2014, 10:11:16 AM
Norma,

For now, I think I would make the dough as you have been making it in your Hobart mixer based on your intimate familiarity with that mixer. I think I would let the dough rest after the initial mix/knead but before you add the oil. That rest period might be, say, 10-15 minutes at most. As a frame of reference, if you read Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3220.msg74624;topicseen#msg74624 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3220.msg74624;topicseen#msg74624), you will see the autolyse rest periods that Prof. Calvel used for various ones of his dough creations, and those rest periods were for dough batches of around 75 pounds.

I think the factor that most governs the matter of oven spring in your case is the oven temperature. Once you set that variable to a particular value, along with the accompanying bake duration, that pretty much limits what you can do thereafter to essentially two possibilities: modifying the dough formulation itself and/or the way the dough is made. Increasing the amount of yeast and trying to keep the dough from overkneading are two such possible changes. If those changes don't yield the desired results, as reflected in a nicely risen rim, then you have to look for other solutions. For example, you might consider using a classic Calvel autolyse. Or you might add the oil to the water, as member November advocates, not after the initial mix/knead. But, either way, 1% oil is not going to be a game changer.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me to try a rest period of 10-15 minutes.  Thanks for the link from you about Prof. Calvel and the rest periods.  I have been resting my regular dough, and my experiments, by not for as long as you told me to try.

I wonder why my one day cold fermented doughs do have more oven spring than the experiments I have been trying, even at lower oven temperatures.  The rim crust is not as moist, but there is more oven spring.  I don't like the big rim that the one day cold fermented doughs make though.  I have tried every which way of opening them differently and they always come out with bigger rims.  Steve even opens some of those dough balls and his techniques are different than mine.  Steve rims still get big too.  With the same amount of sauce and cheese applied on the regular one day cold fermented skins, and the experiments I have been doing, I found the rim usually on the experiments get smaller.  I guess that is for another discussion though in why that happens. 

I will just changed the yeast amount this time and also give the longer rest period.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on May 08, 2014, 10:37:22 AM
Keep us updated big moose! NY pie is the only for me :)  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 08, 2014, 12:25:47 PM
I wonder why my one day cold fermented doughs do have more oven spring than the experiments I have been trying, even at lower oven temperatures.  The rim crust is not as moist, but there is more oven spring.  I don't like the big rim that the one day cold fermented doughs make though.  I have tried every which way of opening them differently and they always come out with bigger rims.  Steve even opens some of those dough balls and his techniques are different than mine.  Steve rims still get big too.  With the same amount of sauce and cheese applied on the regular one day cold fermented skins, and the experiments I have been doing, I found the rim usually on the experiments get smaller.  I guess that is for another discussion though in why that happens. 
Norma,

I believe that you are referring to the one-day cold fermented dough that you have been using to make the Boardwalk style of pizza. If that is correct, then there are several possible explanations for the greater oven spring for the one-day dough.

First, if I recall correctly, you have been using 0.375%-0.55% IDY for the one-day dough, with the actual amount being based on prevailing market conditions. That is about double or triple what you used for the recent 4-day cold fermented doughs and would cause a faster and more pronounced fermentation with more gas.

Second, I suspect that you try to get a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F, not something in the mid-60s degrees F as with the recent 4-day doughs. The higher finished dough temperature will also speed up the fermentation process.

Third, it is possible that the way that you knead the much larger dough batches for the one-day doughs may be producing a more developed gluten structure that can better capture and retain the gases of fermentation and yield a more open crumb structure.

Fourth, you are using more oil for the Boardwalk style of dough, which should allow for a looser and more open crumb structure. However, this may not be a major contributor to the oven spring if you are not using a lot of it (I think you have been around 1.5% oil most recently).

Finally, it is possible that the protease enzymes in the dough, and also acids formed during fermentation, are having little impact on attacking the gluten structure and weakening it, as they might for long, cold fermented doughs. So, the gases and moisture will be retained in the dough and yield a higher oven spring when the oven heat hits the dough and causes the moisture to convert to steam and elevate the rim.

Peter 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 08, 2014, 06:50:53 PM
Norma,

I believe that you are referring to the one-day cold fermented dough that you have been using to make the Boardwalk style of pizza. If that is correct, then there are several possible explanations for the greater oven spring for the one-day dough.

First, if I recall correctly, you have been using 0.375%-0.55% IDY for the one-day dough, with the actual amount being based on prevailing market conditions. That is about double or triple what you used for the recent 4-day cold fermented doughs and would cause a faster and more pronounced fermentation with more gas.

Second, I suspect that you try to get a finished dough temperature of around 80 degrees F, not something in the mid-60s degrees F as with the recent 4-day doughs. The higher finished dough temperature will also speed up the fermentation process.

Third, it is possible that the way that you knead the much larger dough batches for the one-day doughs may be producing a more developed gluten structure that can better capture and retain the gases of fermentation and yield a more open crumb structure.

Fourth, you are using more oil for the Boardwalk style of dough, which should allow for a looser and more open crumb structure. However, this may not be a major contributor to the oven spring if you are not using a lot of it (I think you have been around 1.5% oil most recently).

Finally, it is possible that the protease enzymes in the dough, and also acids formed during fermentation, are having little impact on attacking the gluten structure and weakening it, as they might for long, cold fermented doughs. So, the gases and moisture will be retained in the dough and yield a higher oven spring when the oven heat hits the dough and causes the moisture to convert to steam and elevate the rim.

Peter

Peter,

Yes, I was referring to the one-day cold fermented dough that I have been using to make the boardwalk style of pizza. 

I do use between the amounts of IDY you posted for the one-day dough, and the actual amount is being based on prevailing market conditions.  Since that is double or triple of what I used for recent 4-day cold fermented doughs I guess I didn't think about that would cause faster and more pronounced fermentation with gas.  I thought by using the smaller amount of yeast over the 4-day cold ferment it would even things out with fermentation and gas. 

My final dough temperatures are almost never up 80 degrees F for a one-day cold fermented dough.  They are usually between between 74-76 degrees F.   I think I posted before that my dough balls over a days time at market will ferment too much for my liking near the end of the day if my final dough temperature is up to 80 degrees F. 

It may be true that the larger dough batches for the one-day dough may be producing more developed gluten structure that can better capture and retain the gases of fermentation and yield more open crumb structure.  But even if I make a smaller batch (about 7 dough balls for extra dough balls I might need for a given day), those dough balls seem to act the same the next day in oven spring. 

I have been using 1.5% oil for awhile for the boardwalk type of pizza.

If the protease enzymes in the dough, and also the acids formed during fermentation are having little impact on attacking gluten structure in a one-day dough then how much of of chance do you think I have of succeeding with a 4-day cold fermented dough in better oven spring in the variable conditions I work in? 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 08, 2014, 07:14:05 PM
If the protease enzymes in the dough, and also the acids formed during fermentation are having little impact on attacking gluten structure in a one-day dough then how much of of chance do you think I have of succeeding with a 4-day cold fermented dough in better oven spring in the variable conditions I work in? 
Norma,

You are always going to be confronted with challenges because of the unusual and unorthodox conditions under which you are called upon to perform at market. You are highly unique in that regard. But even with almost perfect conditions, even the best of professionals will have problems from time to time with their doughs and their performance. So you can only do the best that you can do. As for the effects of protease enzymes and acids on gluten, I am not particularly worried about those factors for a 4-day cold fermented dough. But I can't say whether the changes you plan to make will give you improved oven spring. All we can do is try things that seem plausible and assess the results, and go from there. For now, I'd rather focus on the dough formulation itself and related dough making methods and steer away from solutions that might call for using pizza screens as a crutch.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 08, 2014, 07:40:41 PM
Norma,

You are always going to be confronted with challenges because of the unusual and unorthodox conditions under which you are called upon to perform at market. You are highly unique in that regard. But even with almost perfect conditions, even the best of professionals will have problems from time to time with their doughs and their performance. So you can only do the best that you can do. As for the effects of protease enzymes and acids on gluten, I am not particularly worried about those factors for a 4-day cold fermented dough. But I can't say whether the changes you plan to make will give you improved oven spring. All we can do is try things that seem plausible and assess the results, and go from there. For now, I'd rather focus on the dough formulation itself and related dough making methods and steer away from solutions that might call for using pizza screens as a crutch.

Peter

Peter,

I know even the best of professionals will have problems from time to time with their doughs and performance.  Thanks for telling me you are not particularly worried about the effect of protease enzymes and acids on gluten for a 4-day cold fermented dough. 

I agree about trying for better oven spring and then going from there if no better oven spring can be achieved. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2014, 06:48:02 AM
I want to note something else about this past Tuesday's experimental dough balls after thinking over what happened when I went to open those dough balls.  I don't know if what happened could relate to another variable in how oven spring is achieved or not.  Although I did not take photos of all the experimental dough balls and final pizzas this is what I now recall.  The first sifted dough ball did want to stick to the plastic bag some, and then it was harder to form to be able to open the dough ball.  I really can't recall about all of the dough balls and if they wanted to stick to the plastic bags or not, but do recall that the ones in the plastic containers came out easily and were opened normally.  I usually don't have any sticking issues with the regular dough balls in plastic bags (unless they are left to temper too long, or at really warm temperatures at market), and then they also become somewhat sticky and are harder to form.  I also really don't recall if the regular dough balls that were sticking to the plastic bags had some decreased oven spring or not.  Since the 4-day cold fermented dough balls are more relaxed from the longer fermentation I don't know if there will be more problems with them when the weather gets hotter.  This coming Tuesday is supposed to be about 85 degrees F outside, so inside market probably will be a lot warmer near the oven.  I guess I will see what happens with the experimental dough balls at warmer temperatures.  Maybe the 4-day cold fermented dough balls when contained in plastic bags won't work out as well as the one-day cold fermented dough balls in the plastic bags. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2014, 07:25:59 AM
I don't know if I might have made a mistake or not, but when I entered 0.22% IDY in the Lehmann Dough  Calculating Tool I got the same amount of IDY that I had been using in lbs. for the 0.16% IDY I did use in my last experiment with the sifted flour. 

Flour (100%):                1482.6 g  |  52.3 oz | 3.27 lbs
Water (63%):                934.04 g  |  32.95 oz | 2.06 lbs
IDY (0.22%):                     3.26 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.08 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):                   25.95 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.41 tsp | 1.8 tbsp
Oil (1%):                           14.83 g | 0.52 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.29 tsp | 1.1 tbsp
Sugar (0.85%):                     12.6 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.16 tsp | 1.05 tbsp
Total (166.82%):            2473.27 g | 87.24 oz | 5.45 lbs | TF = 0.0816
Single Ball:                 494.65 g | 17.45 oz | 1.09 lbs

Since I weigh in lbs at market I guess I will have to take my smaller scale over to market to measure out the IDY.  In grams the IDY for the 0.16% IDY with sifted flour was 2.37 g I think.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 09, 2014, 09:32:43 AM
Norma,

For discussion purposes, here are the two dough formulations, one using 0.16% IDY and the other using 0.22% IDY:

Full Strength Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.16%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Sugar (0.85%):
Total (166.76%):
Single Ball:
1483.13 g  |  52.31 oz | 3.27 lbs
934.37 g  |  32.96 oz | 2.06 lbs
2.37 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.79 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
25.95 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.41 tsp | 1.8 tbsp
14.83 g | 0.52 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.3 tsp | 1.1 tbsp
12.61 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.16 tsp | 1.05 tbsp
2473.27 g | 87.24 oz | 5.45 lbs | TF = 0.0816
494.65 g | 17.45 oz | 1.09 lbs
Note: Dough is for five dough balls; pizza size = 16.5"; nominal thickness factor = 0.08; bowl residue compensation = 2%

Full Strength Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.22%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Sugar (0.85%):
Total (166.82%):
Single Ball:
1482.6 g  |  52.3 oz | 3.27 lbs
934.04 g  |  32.95 oz | 2.06 lbs
3.26 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01lbs | 1.08 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
25.95 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.41 tsp | 1.8 tbsp
14.83 g | 0.52 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.29 tsp | 1.1 tbsp
12.6 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.16 tsp | 1.05 tbsp
2473.27 g | 87.24 oz | 5.45 lbs | TF = 0.0816
494.65 g | 17.45 oz | 1.09 lbs
Note: Dough is for five dough balls; pizza size = 16.5"; nominal thickness factor = 0.08; bowl residue compensation = 2%

As you can see from the above, you are correct that on a weight basis the two amounts of IDY come to 0.01 lbs. The reason for that is that the dough calculating tool (actually, all of the tools) rounds the numbers in the tables to two decimal places. Technically, 2.37 grams of IDY converts to 0.0052248 lbs, and 3.26 grams of IDY converts to 0.0071869 lbs. On a rounded basis to two decimal places, both numbers round to 0.01. Most people don't use weights for very small amounts of ingredients like IDY. You would have to be making very large amounts of dough to use weights in pounds for something like IDY. For example, if you wanted to make 999 dough balls (the maximum that the dough calculating tools can handle), the dough formulation using 0.22% IDY would look like this:

Full Strength Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.22%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Sugar (0.85%):
Total (166.82%):
Single Ball:
296222.72 g  |  10448.77 oz | 653.05 lbs
186620.31 g  |  6582.73 oz | 411.42 lbs
651.69 g | 22.99 oz | 1.44 lbs | 72.12 tbsp | 4.51 cups
5183.9 g | 182.85 oz | 11.43 lbs | 359.99 tbsp | 22.5 cups
2962.23 g | 104.49 oz | 6.53 lbs | 219.42 tbsp | 13.71 cups
2517.89 g | 88.81 oz | 5.55 lbs | 210.52 tbsp | 13.16 cups
494158.74 g | 17430.64 oz | 1089.42 lbs | TF = 0.0816
494.65 g | 17.45 oz | 1.09 lbs
Note: Dough is for 999 dough balls; pizza size = 16.5"; nominal thickness factor = 0.08; bowl residue compensation = 2%

You can now see that the amount of IDY on a pounds basis makes more sense. Even then, you might use one of the other measurements, such as ounces or cups.

For a bit more background on the design of the dough calculating tools as respects the number of decimal places, see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13694.msg137152#msg137152 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13694.msg137152#msg137152).

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on May 09, 2014, 10:18:40 AM
Norma:   Here is an oven note I realized today after looking at your pies.  My ovens give a very even browning to the bottoms.  I notice yours are more light/dark areas.  I figured I share that for reasons I have no idea of  :)  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2014, 10:51:19 AM
Norma,

For discussion purposes, here are the two dough formulations, one using 0.16% IDY and the other using 0.22% IDY:

Full Strength Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.16%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Sugar (0.85%):
Total (166.76%):
Single Ball:
1483.13 g  |  52.31 oz | 3.27 lbs
934.37 g  |  32.96 oz | 2.06 lbs
2.37 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.79 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
25.95 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.41 tsp | 1.8 tbsp
14.83 g | 0.52 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.3 tsp | 1.1 tbsp
12.61 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.16 tsp | 1.05 tbsp
2473.27 g | 87.24 oz | 5.45 lbs | TF = 0.0816
494.65 g | 17.45 oz | 1.09 lbs
Note: Dough is for five dough balls; pizza size = 16.5"; nominal thickness factor = 0.08; bowl residue compensation = 2%

Full Strength Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.22%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Sugar (0.85%):
Total (166.82%):
Single Ball:
1482.6 g  |  52.3 oz | 3.27 lbs
934.04 g  |  32.95 oz | 2.06 lbs
3.26 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01lbs | 1.08 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
25.95 g | 0.92 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.41 tsp | 1.8 tbsp
14.83 g | 0.52 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.29 tsp | 1.1 tbsp
12.6 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.16 tsp | 1.05 tbsp
2473.27 g | 87.24 oz | 5.45 lbs | TF = 0.0816
494.65 g | 17.45 oz | 1.09 lbs
Note: Dough is for five dough balls; pizza size = 16.5"; nominal thickness factor = 0.08; bowl residue compensation = 2%

As you can see from the above, you are correct that on a weight basis the two amounts of IDY come to 0.01 lbs. The reason for that is that the dough calculating tool (actually, all of the tools) rounds the numbers in the tables to two decimal places. Technically, 2.37 grams of IDY converts to 0.0052248 lbs, and 3.26 grams of IDY converts to 0.0071869 lbs. On a rounded basis to two decimal places, both numbers round to 0.01. Most people don't use weights for very small amounts of ingredients like IDY. You would have to be making very large amounts of dough to use weights in pounds for something like IDY. For example, if you wanted to make 999 dough balls (the maximum that the dough calculating tools can handle), the dough formulation using 0.22% IDY would look like this:

Full Strength Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.22%):
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Sugar (0.85%):
Total (166.82%):
Single Ball:
296222.72 g  |  10448.77 oz | 653.05 lbs
186620.31 g  |  6582.73 oz | 411.42 lbs
651.69 g | 22.99 oz | 1.44 lbs | 72.12 tbsp | 4.51 cups
5183.9 g | 182.85 oz | 11.43 lbs | 359.99 tbsp | 22.5 cups
2962.23 g | 104.49 oz | 6.53 lbs | 219.42 tbsp | 13.71 cups
2517.89 g | 88.81 oz | 5.55 lbs | 210.52 tbsp | 13.16 cups
494158.74 g | 17430.64 oz | 1089.42 lbs | TF = 0.0816
494.65 g | 17.45 oz | 1.09 lbs
Note: Dough is for 999 dough balls; pizza size = 16.5"; nominal thickness factor = 0.08; bowl residue compensation = 2%

You can now see that the amount of IDY on a pounds basis makes more sense. Even then, you might use one of the other measurements, such as ounces or cups.

For a bit more background on the design of the dough calculating tools as respects the number of decimal places, see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13694.msg137152#msg137152 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13694.msg137152#msg137152).

Peter

Peter,

I don't think I recalled reading about that all the dough calculating tools rounding the numbers in the tables to two decimal points.  I had posted at Reply 316 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg313215#msg313215 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg313215#msg313215)  how much differences there were when I tried to weigh 0.01 lb before on my market scale and also noted that at Reply 312 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg312884#msg312884 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg312884#msg312884) I know most members don't use weights for very small ingredients like IDY.  I have always used weights in lbs when measuring the IDY, sugar, salt and oil at market.  I guess what I have been doing all along might have skewed some of my results. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2014, 10:54:52 AM
Norma:   Here is an oven note I realized today after looking at your pies.  My ovens give a very even browning to the bottoms.  I notice yours are more light/dark areas.  I figured I share that for reasons I have no idea of  :)  Walter

Walter,

Thank you for posting the photos of your very even browning to the bottom crusts.  I know mine at not like yours.   :'(  I think it is your type of oven that gives you such good results.  You also don't have all the slices going in and out of the oven like I do for reheats.  My stones are nothing like yours are either.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on May 09, 2014, 11:22:22 AM
Walter,

Thank you for posting the photos of your very even browning to the bottom crusts.  I know mine at not like yours.   :'(  I think it is your type of oven that gives you such good results.  You also don't have all the slices going in and out of the oven like I do for reheats.  My stones are nothing like yours are either.

Norma

Norma: We have been allowed to sell to the students during the 3 back to back lunch periods.   This amounts to about 10-30 pies per day sold as slices.  So our oven doors are opening a lot.  Luckily the design of the oven -120k btus, the stones, and and dimensions, all add up to it  holding heat for whole pies and slices without any bad effects.  If I hit the lottery I will send you a stack and build out your space to accomodate them.   As deep as  you are into pizza you deserve them :)  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2014, 05:49:08 PM
Norma: We have been allowed to sell to the students during the 3 back to back lunch periods.   This amounts to about 10-30 pies per day sold as slices.  So our oven doors are opening a lot.  Luckily the design of the oven -120k btus, the stones, and and dimensions, all add up to it  holding heat for whole pies and slices without any bad effects.  If I hit the lottery I will send you a stack and build out your space to accomodate them.   As deep as  you are into pizza you deserve them :)  Walter

Walter,

Thanks for explaining more about how many slices you reheat.  I know your oven is terrific in all ways.  ;D Thanks for the kind thoughts if you won the lottery.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2014, 06:35:48 PM
The sifted flour 5 dough batch with 0.22% IDY was mixed today at market.  I did take the smaller scale along to weigh out the IDY, salt, sugar and oil.  The dough wanted to climb the hook again.  I pulled the dough off the hook four times.  I am still kind of puzzled by that.  I used cold water right out of the deli case again.  Since it is a lot warmer in our area now the final dough temperature was higher before the rest period than the last Friday.  After the rest period and mixing again it can be seen what the final dough temperature was then.  The mix after the rest went a little better and the dough did not want to climb the hook as much.  I did place poppy seeds on one dough ball in the plastic container.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 12, 2014, 05:50:35 PM
I guess the sifted flour experiment with the 0.22% IDY and rest period is going okay.  Even with a higher final dough temperature than before, and the increased amount of IDY,  the poppy seeds did not move very much in 3 days of cold fermentation.  The prep fridge is keeping the same temperatures as before over the 3 day time span.  I really don't understand about the specks on the top of the dough ball but there aren't as many as before.  Maybe since the dough ball didn't ferment as much that is why there aren't more speckles on top of the dough ball.  I took the dough ball outside so it could be seen better.  The dough balls in the plastic bags don't have any speckles even though I did leave a little extra space when twisting the plastic bags shut to see if they would speckle.  I had put the little extra piece of dough in the prep fridge on Friday from the bowl residue compensation.  I didn't flour it today, but tried to stretch it to see what would happen.  It stretched very well.  The small piece of dough was not balled on Friday.  I am not sure if these experimental dough balls will be ready to be used by tomorrow.

It was 70 degrees F inside market when I arrived today.  Since it is more humid in our area the prep fridge wants to develop condensation on the top.  It even did that some while I was at market on Friday.

Tomorrow is Root's 89th Anniversary at market so it will probably be busy. 

A dessert cooking video from Root's for their 89th Anniversary for anyone that is interested.  It is talked about in the video how Root's got started.  Root's is putting up a cooking video every week now on facebook. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T-LNZOLiC8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0T-LNZOLiC8) 

Norma 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2014, 07:49:54 AM
These are the photos that were taken for the experimental sifted flour, higher amount of IDY and the rest period pizzas made yesterday.  I did not take photos of all of the experimental pizzas that were made. 

The first photo of the dough ball, with poppy seeds placed on the dough ball, was taken at about 2:40 PM and that dough ball was opened at about 3:45 PM.  The temper time was a little over an hour.

Luis helped me yesterday and I was telling him how he would be able to open dough balls easily if I let him use the Marsal pizza mold that I had purchased for another thread. http://www.marsalsons.com/doughmolds.aspx (http://www.marsalsons.com/doughmolds.aspx)  I did show him how to use the pizza mold when using a regular dough ball.  I did not have time to really show him a lot about using the pizza mold because I was busy.  When the one dough ball sat out from 2:40 PM until about 5:40 PM, I felt and saw when I tried to get it out of the plastic bag, it was sticky and did have big bubbles of fermentation in the dough ball.  I decided to use the Marsal Pizza Dough Mold because I thought I might have problems forming that dough ball and opening it right.  The Marsal Pizza Mold did rescue the highly fermented dough ball and made a decent pizza.  I now know what weapon to get out when trying to open overly fermented dough balls.  At least I had an alternative plan of attack for that dough ball.   >:D

Luis did say he could taste the difference in the crust of the experimental pizzas yesterday.  He said they were better and the rim crust was sweeter.  That is after I told him they were experimental pizzas.

The one photo shows the experimental dough pizza on the top shelf and the regular 1-day cold fermented pizza on the bottom shelf.  That photo number is 5386.

The temperature on the thermometer was after the oven was turned off and not too long before I left market.  It was about 85 degrees F at my pizza stand yesterday and was somewhat humid.  I am not sure if my pizza prep fridge will be able to withstand the really hot temperatures of summer when cold fermenting for 4 days.  The constantly opening the top of the prep fridge to apply the cheese is hard on the prep fridge in addition to the higher temperatures.  The prep fridge did withstand the warmer temperatures yesterday, but I had to clean out water on the bottom shelf 3 times from middle afternoon until I left market last evening.   

Norma

EDIT (5/13/15): For a substitute for the pizza dough mold that apparently is no longer available, see the pictorial athttp://www.marsalsons.com/doughmolds.html ; for a link to the Marsal website, see http://www.marsalsons.com/index.html
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2014, 07:54:34 AM
Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2014, 07:57:02 AM
Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2014, 08:04:44 AM
These are some photos when the regular 1-day cold fermented dough balls were used to make some of the pizzas yesterday. 

The one photo shows when I used the pizza mold to show Luis how to use it.  I did not take my time when putting that dough ball in the pizza mold.

The first photo is when slices were being reheated.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 14, 2014, 08:20:16 AM
Norma,

I don't recall seeing the name Luis in any of your posts. Is he a new assistant?

You didn't mention whether the latest experimental dough with the increased amount of yeast resulted in a taller rim. It is hard to tell from the photos. Also, did the experimental dough ball open up easily after tempering?

The photos showing the spacing of the poppy seeds suggest a below average rise. If the spacing is true, then future dough balls may hold up well even as the temperature at market rises as it gets warmer.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2014, 09:08:22 AM
Norma,

I don't recall seeing the name Luis in any of your posts. Is he a new assistant?

You didn't mention whether the latest experimental dough with the increased amount of yeast resulted in a taller rim. It is hard to tell from the photos. Also, did the experimental dough ball open up easily after tempering?

The photos showing the spacing of the poppy seeds suggest a below average rise. If the spacing is true, then future dough balls may hold up well even as the temperature at market rises as it gets warmer.

Peter

Peter,

Luis is my granddaughter's boyfriend.  I posted a photo of Luis with my granddaughter at Reply 22  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26483.msg268977#msg268977 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26483.msg268977#msg268977)   Luis also helped me a few weeks ago when Steve had other things he had to do on a Tuesday.  Luis can not make pizzas, but he is good at waiting on customers, reheating slices, doing dishes among other things.  Luis had to go to his regular job at 9:00 PM last evening until 5:00 PM this morning.  That is one problem with having a pizza business that is so small.  If Steve is ill, or has something else to do I can have problems finding someone to help me.  If I am sick then the pizza stand has to be closed.  Luis is not my regular assistant.  Steve was given a new grandchild yesterday by his one daughter.

The latest experimental dough with the increased amount of yeast and the rest period did get a little better (taller) rim crust.  The experimental dough balls did open very easily after tempering. 

I agree that the spacing of the poppy seeds suggest a below average rise.  Isn't that the same thing you experienced in your experiments?  I also tend to think that future dough balls might hold up well at market as the temperatures get warmer.

Norma   
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 14, 2014, 02:20:42 PM
Peter,

Luis is my granddaughter's boyfriend.  I posted a photo of Luis with my granddaughter at Reply 22  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26483.msg268977#msg268977 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26483.msg268977#msg268977)   Luis also helped me a few weeks ago when Steve had other things he had to do on a Tuesday.  Luis can not make pizzas, but he is good at waiting on customers, reheating slices, doing dishes among other things.  Luis had to go to his regular job at 9:00 PM last evening until 5:00 PM this morning.  That is one problem with having a pizza business that is so small.  If Steve is ill, or has something else to do I can have problems finding someone to help me.  If I am sick then the pizza stand has to be closed.  Luis is not my regular assistant.  Steve was given a new grandchild yesterday by his one daughter.

The latest experimental dough with the increased amount of yeast and the rest period did get a little better (taller) rim crust.  The experimental dough balls did open very easily after tempering. 

I agree that the spacing of the poppy seeds suggest a below average rise.  Isn't that the same thing you experienced in your experiments?  I also tend to think that future dough balls might hold up well at market as the temperatures get warmer.

Norma   
Norma,

Thank you for clarifying who Luis is. Before I had mentioned Luis, I did a search of your posts to see if you had mentioned him before. Other than your post about Luis this morning, I did not find any other posts where you mentioned him by name. Maybe you should train Luis to be a pizza maker and open up a full-time pizza shop where all you have to do is sit in the back room and count all of the money and sip on limoncellos with Steve as Luis makes all of the pizzas that you have mastered over the past several years :-D.

The matter of how much a dough should rise has always been the subject of discussion and debate. Some people want the dough to double or even triple in volume before using. Some might even want the dough to be at death's door before using, in order to maximize the byproducts of fermentation as much as possible. Others, on the other hand, may prefer that the dough rise but not to the doubling point. When I experimented with the DeLorenzo clone doughs, I came to the conclusion that it was not possible to have the dough balls reach the doubling point and not have any bubbles in the skins made from those dough balls, as we saw in DeLorenzo photos and videos. Of course, it is possible that I was missing an important piece of information, but at the time and after much thought I could not discern that missing piece of information.

When I was looking for a post of mine this morning that previously addressed the above matters, I found this one that I think does a pretty good job of discussing the matter of how much a dough ball should or might rise before using: Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8533.msg73807;topicseen#msg73807 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8533.msg73807;topicseen#msg73807). As far as I am concerned, whatever amount of rise gets the job done and you are happy with it is the amount of rise that you should feel comfortable using. I don't see it as a right or wrong or good or bad issue.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on May 14, 2014, 03:41:31 PM
Looking good Norma!  Personally I like the dough to be at deaths door coming from the dough box to shaping.  At that point it has to be bench/hand stretched.  Tossing would result in tearing. For my money that makes the most flavorful and best looking crust.  Most commercial shops prefer to use the dough while it is still very easy to work with and is very forgiving.  It is near impossible to pull off the death door dough pizza in a commerical setting with consisitency.  We tend to be all over the map from right out of the fridge to oven when the bench dough was used up and a customer wants a pizza, all the way to almost blown out beyond use (best taste/look IMO).  I aim to push the dough as long as possible and end up on that end of the spectrum vs. the perfect looking dough balls that are easy as pie to toss.  For my lunch of 2 slices everyday (cheese) I let the oldest dough ball we have sit on the bench till it gets to that state.  For my regular NYC metro area customers and ones that know good pizza, I save doughes like this for them when they order at least 3 hours or more in advance.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2014, 04:17:05 PM
Norma,

Thank you for clarifying who Luis is. Before I had mentioned Luis, I did a search of your posts to see if you had mentioned him before. Other than your post about Luis this morning, I did not find any other posts where you mentioned him by name. Maybe you should train Luis to be a pizza maker and open up a full-time pizza shop where all you have to do is sit in the back room and count all of the money and sip on limoncellos with Steve as Luis makes all of the pizzas that you have mastered over the past several years :-D.

The matter of how much a dough should rise has always been the subject of discussion and debate. Some people want the dough to double or even triple in volume before using. Some might even want the dough to be at death's door before using, in order to maximize the byproducts of fermentation as much as possible. Others, on the other hand, may prefer that the dough rise but not to the doubling point. When I experimented with the DeLorenzo clone doughs, I came to the conclusion that it was not possible to have the dough balls reach the doubling point and not have any bubbles in the skins made from those dough balls, as we saw in DeLorenzo photos and videos. Of course, it is possible that I was missing an important piece of information, but at the time and after much thought I could not discern that missing piece of information.

When I was looking for a post of mine this morning that previously addressed the above matters, I found this one that I think does a pretty good job of discussing the matter of how much a dough ball should or might rise before using: Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8533.msg73807;topicseen#msg73807 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8533.msg73807;topicseen#msg73807). As far as I am concerned, whatever amount of rise gets the job done and you are happy with it is the amount of rise that you should feel comfortable using. I don't see it as a right or wrong or good or bad issue.

Peter

Peter,

I did ask Luis if he would like to learn to make pizzas yesterday and he said yes that would be fun.  As for him helping to operate a full-time pizza shop, or even my small pizza stand, he is not interested.  Luis has seen how much work even my small pizza stand is.  Luis, my granddaughter, and great-granddaughter were at market last Tuesday and wanted some pizza.  I could not even give them slices because we were so busy.  I guess I never will be able to just sit in the back room and sip on limoncellos or have a simple job as long as I am making pizzas for customers.

Thanks so much for your link to Reply 1.  I never knew Jeff Varasano didn't want the dough to to expand more than 50% in volume and why he didn't believe in dough expanding more.  I can understand why how much a dough should rise has always been the subject for discussion and debate.  I also recently saw on the cold water thread that the dough should go into the cooler cold with no rise and ice water should be used.  I wonder if De Lorenzo's might have used ice water in their dough.  I recently found out that Mack & Manco's used to cool their dough balls and then freeze then.  Then they opened them when they were about 40 degrees F.   I had wondered why Mack's dough balls always looked the same even in the hot summer months.  I never saw any of their dough balls that looked any different than the others.  Mack's dough balls were always strong and were good for tossing and twirling.   

For me I don't want the dough balls to rise too much because then they might stick to the plastic bags when tempering.  I saw that problem on the one dough ball that sat out too long yesterday.  Do you know of any other ideas for me to try for an experiment this Friday?

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2014, 04:25:46 PM
Looking good Norma!  Personally I like the dough to be at deaths door coming from the dough box to shaping.  At that point it has to be bench/hand stretched.  Tossing would result in tearing. For my money that makes the most flavorful and best looking crust.  Most commercial shops prefer to use the dough while it is still very easy to work with and is very forgiving.  It is near impossible to pull off the death door dough pizza in a commerical setting with consisitency.  We tend to be all over the map from right out of the fridge to oven when the bench dough was used up and a customer wants a pizza, all the way to almost blown out beyond use (best taste/look IMO).  I aim to push the dough as long as possible and end up on that end of the spectrum vs. the perfect looking dough balls that are easy as pie to toss.  For my lunch of 2 slices everyday (cheese) I let the oldest dough ball we have sit on the bench till it gets to that state.  For my regular NYC metro area customers and ones that know good pizza, I save doughes like this for them when they order at least 3 hours or more in advance.  Walter

Thanks Walter!  I can understand why the taste of the crust would be better when the dough it right about at death's door.  I know it would be nearly impossible to pull that off in a commercial environment all the time.  It will be interesting to see what state of fermentation dough balls you will use when you own your own pizzeria someday.  At least until then you can have everything figured out what you want to do.  Some of my regular dough balls yesterday wanted to ferment too fast when sitting out to temper. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Tampa on May 14, 2014, 04:48:37 PM
Looking good Norma!  Walter
^^^  Those are fine looking pies.  You either have really soft hands, or the windowpane is better than anything I've seen.

I suppose the coloration still isn't even enough for you. :-D

Dave
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on May 14, 2014, 05:05:51 PM
Thanks Walter!  I can understand why the taste of the crust would be better when the dough it right about at death's door.  I know it would be nearly impossible to pull that off in a commercial environment all the time.  It will be interesting to see what state of fermentation dough balls you will use when you own your own pizzeria someday.  At least until then you can have everything figured out what you want to do.  Some of my regular dough balls yesterday wanted to ferment too fast when sitting out to temper. 

Norma

Norma:  The challenge with the dough balls when they get towards death in dough boxes is they tend to bleed into each other/fill in the perpendicular corners(you get a 1/4 square and 3/4 round ball) and are difficult to get out, form and handle, without tears and uneven dough thickness.  I am not talking the big bubbles but while the dough is still pretty much solid but getting near that state.  I dust them with flour so the bench knife/my hands don't stick to them when getting them out of the dough boxes and then gently put them into the pan of bench flour.  Our 63-64% hydration makes for very gentle handling. Paige doesn't like the dough in that shape so I let her make the dough balls that are more forgiving and she tops when I work on the more difficult doughes. I think when I open my own shop I will lean towards the far end of the dough life as I do now.  Figuring out the flow of customers and orders will  help develop that.  Right now we do 15-40 dough balls per day and next school year I hope to be closer to 40 per day regularly.  With your set up it is an ever going extreme challenge to figure things due to the room temp differences you deal with. With that said, your pizzas are doublely amazing IMO. 

We have 3 large A/C vents in the ceiling.  I took the covers off and this results in a noticable breeze of cool air when standing under them.  Our classroom opens to the high school cafeteria.  It has a huge wall of glass windows about 40 yards long and 20 feet high.  This is my second spring in the room and am figuring it out.  In the warm weather the system can't cool the cafeteria and with us leaving our 2 doors open, our cool air is replaced with the warm cafeteria air and temps have averaged the upper 70's under these vents and well into the upper 80 within a few feet of the ovens.  I place our dough under these vents to start out the day and then gradually move them to a few feet from the ovens as we progress with demand.  I love the puzzle of figuring this ever changing temp puzzle out. In the fall we have similar conditions and the winter brings us down to the mid-upper 60's in the room and we put the dough near the ovens at least a couple hours before using them.  You have a much harder puzzle than me.  When I open my own shop a good a/c system will be a must.   Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2014, 05:19:03 PM
^^^  Those are fine looking pies.  You either have really soft hands, or the windowpane is better than anything I've seen.

I suppose the coloration still isn't even enough for you. :-D

Dave

Dave,

Thanks!  I don't really have soft hands.  My hands are more like dishpan hands.  :-D  I had been painting outside on Sunday and didn't wear gloves.  I am not a neat painter.  I had paint all over my hands and arms and it was enamel paint.  I was worried I would not get it all off until Tuesday.  That and I had spit my thumb finger while working outside.  The pain got into the split.  It is just a learning process in learning how to open doughs.  I sure don't have it all figured out. 

There is always some kind of things I don't like about my pies.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2014, 05:28:03 PM
Norma:  The challenge with the dough balls when they get towards death in dough boxes is they tend to bleed into each other/fill in the perpendicular corners(you get a 1/4 square and 3/4 round ball) and are difficult to get out, form and handle, without tears and uneven dough thickness.  I am not talking the big bubbles but while the dough is still pretty much solid but getting near that state.  I dust them with flour so the bench knife/my hands don't stick to them when getting them out of the dough boxes and then gently put them into the pan of bench flour.  Our 63-64% hydration makes for very gentle handling. Paige doesn't like the dough in that shape so I let her make the dough balls that are more forgiving and she tops when I work on the more difficult doughes. I think when I open my own shop I will lean towards the far end of the dough life as I do now.  Figuring out the flow of customers and orders will  help develop that.  Right now we do 15-40 dough balls per day and next school year I hope to be closer to 40 per day regularly.  With your set up it is an ever going extreme challenge to figure things due to the room temp differences you deal with. With that said, your pizzas are doublely amazing IMO. 

We have 3 large A/C vents in the ceiling.  I took the covers off and this results in a noticable breeze of cool air when standing under them.  Our classroom opens to the high school cafeteria.  It has a huge wall of glass windows about 40 yards long and 20 feet high.  This is my second spring in the room and am figuring it out.  In the warm weather the system can't cool the cafeteria and with us leaving our 2 doors open, our cool air is replaced with the warm cafeteria air and temps have averaged the upper 70's under these vents and well into the upper 80 within a few feet of the ovens.  I place our dough under these vents to start out the day and then gradually move them to a few feet from the ovens as we progress with demand.  I love the puzzle of figuring this ever changing temp puzzle out. In the fall we have similar conditions and the winter brings us down to the mid-upper 60's in the room and we put the dough near the ovens at least a couple hours before using them.  You have a much harder puzzle than me.  When I open my own shop a good a/c system will be a must.   Walter

Walter,

Thanks for explaining about your dough balls when they get near death in your dough boxes.  Thanks also for telling us your 63-64% hydration doughs make for very gentle handling.  I know you always like a challenge so it is no surprise to me that you probably will lean towards the far end side of dough life.   ;D

I know with my set-up I have many challenges.  Even when I have the fans blowing it can blow the dough skins when opening them and dry out dough balls after balling until they are all balled. 

Good to hear you are figuring your AC for your pizzas.  I can understand when you open your own pizzeria a good air conditioning system will be a must.

Norma
   
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 14, 2014, 05:43:07 PM
Do you know of any other ideas for me to try for an experiment this Friday?

Norma
Norma,

The last test dough you made, with the sifted Full Strength flour, 62% hydration, 0.22% IDY, 1.75% Morton's Kosher salt, 1% olive oil and 0.85% sugar, was intended to provide a taller rim without having to increase the oven temperature to the levels you previously used. If you feel that that objective was achieved to your satisfaction, then I don't have any other experiment in mind for you to conduct. However, if there is something else that you would like to make better, or improve upon, then maybe we can come up with something else for you to try.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2014, 06:34:50 PM
Norma,

The last test dough you made, with the sifted Full Strength flour, 62% hydration, 0.22% IDY, 1.75% Morton's Kosher salt, 1% olive oil and 0.85% sugar, was intended to provide a taller rim without having to increase the oven temperature to the levels you previously used. If you feel that that objective was achieved to your satisfaction, then I don't have any other experiment in mind for you to conduct. However, if there is something else that you would like to make better, or improve upon, then maybe we can come up with something else for you to try.

Peter

Peter,

I liked the results on the last 4-day cold fermented dough balls when they were made into pizzas.  The only thing I would like to achieve would be a little taller rim rise.  I don't know if that is possible though since I am using the lower bakes temperatures.  Maybe the combination of the dough balls being so easy to open, with the lower oven temperatures I am using, would make that impossible.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 14, 2014, 07:52:55 PM
I liked the results on the last 4-day cold fermented dough balls when they were made into pizzas.  The only thing I would like to achieve would be a little taller rim rise.  I don't know if that is possible though since I am using the lower bakes temperatures.  Maybe the combination of the dough balls being so easy to open, with the lower oven temperatures I am using, would make that impossible.

Norma
Norma,

Most recently, we have been nibbling around the edges of the dough formulation you have been using to get around having to raise your oven temperature in order to get an increased oven spring. However, below I will propose a future experiment with your oven to determine if it is your oven or your dough formulation that is the problem.

For your next dough batch, you might try increasing the formula hydration some more, maybe by one or two percent. If the flour is sifted, I think it should handle the increased hydration but the dough might ride the hook more than your most recent doughs that also used sifted flour. I do not wish to increase the amount of yeast because that might cause problems down the line when the weather at market starts to heat up. I think you should still get the benefits of the longer bake at the lower oven temperature (the Maillard reactions, caramelization and protein denaturing) but I don't know if some other problem will rear its ugly head, such as excessive crispiness or chewiness or maybe an overly brown bottom crust.

If the above change does not improve matters, then you might want to conduct an experiment with your oven. Specifically, you would use the last dough formulation that you reported on this morning, or the one before that, but with your oven at the higher temperature that you were originally using. The purpose for doing this is to see if you get a noticeably improved oven spring because of the elevated oven temperature. For this experiment, you will also want to have a few pizza screens on hand to slip under the pizzas as soon as they set up, but after the initial oven spring. The screens will serve to allow the pizzas to continue baking without burning or overly browning the bottoms of the crusts, thereby allowing more time for the crusts to develop the flavors from the sources mentioned above (Maillard reactions, etc.). I do not intend that this method become a standard one for you at market. It is only to see if the oven or your dough formulation is the problem. If we get the answer to this question, then it tells us where to look next to address the problem.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2014, 09:58:21 PM
Norma,

Most recently, we have been nibbling around the edges of the dough formulation you have been using to get around having to raise your oven temperature in order to get an increased oven spring. However, below I will propose a future experiment with your oven to determine if it is your oven or your dough formulation that is the problem.

For your next dough batch, you might try increasing the formula hydration some more, maybe by one or two percent. If the flour is sifted, I think it should handle the increased hydration but the dough might ride the hook more than your most recent doughs that also used sifted flour. I do not wish to increase the amount of yeast because that might cause problems down the line when the weather at market starts to heat up. I think you should still get the benefits of the longer bake at the lower oven temperature (the Maillard reactions, caramelization and protein denaturing) but I don't know if some other problem will rear its ugly head, such as excessive crispiness or chewiness or maybe an overly brown bottom crust.

If the above change does not improve matters, then you might want to conduct an experiment with your oven. Specifically, you would use the last dough formulation that you reported on this morning, or the one before that, but with your oven at the higher temperature that you were originally using. The purpose for doing this is to see if you get a noticeably improved oven spring because of the elevated oven temperature. For this experiment, you will also want to have a few pizza screens on hand to slip under the pizzas as soon as they set up, but after the initial oven spring. The screens will serve to allow the pizzas to continue baking without burning or overly browning the bottoms of the crusts, thereby allowing more time for the crusts to develop the flavors from the sources mentioned above (Maillard reactions, etc.). I do not intend that this method become a standard one for you at market. It is only to see if the oven or your dough formulation is the problem. If we get the answer to this question, then it tells us where to look next to address the problem.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your proposal to increase the hydration by one to two percent.  Why do you think the dough might want to climb the dough hook more with the increased hydration?  I thought it might be the cold water in combination with the smaller dough batch that might have been the cause of the dough wanting to climb the dough hook.  I still have not figured that out.  I understand why the amount of yeast should not be increased right now because of the weather at market in the future.

I don't know why but had thought maybe you might have suggested decreasing the hydration and upping the oil a little for better oven spring.  I had thought about the formulation that Paul figured out for me at Reply 133 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25401.msg266219#msg266219 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=25401.msg266219#msg266219)  I guess I thought about the softening of the dough balls after a 4-day cold fermentation and did not think about all the other things that could happen. 

I will make the next batch of dough using your recommendation.  If that does not change the oven spring, or makes the dough balls too hard to handle I will conduct the experiment of using a higher temperature in my deck oven with the one dough formulation I last tried or the one before that.

I never thought trying a 4-day cold fermented dough would be so complicated.  I am almost ready to go back to the preferment Lehmann dough.  That was quite easy compared to all of the experiments I have conducted and the results I had so far.  I still like the preferment Lehmann dough pizza crusts very much.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 14, 2014, 10:59:43 PM
Norma,

My comment about the dough climbing the hook was based on what you recently reported at Reply 421 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg314831;topicseen#msg314831 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg314831;topicseen#msg314831)  where you mentioned that a second dough batch using unsifted flour did not climb the dough hook whereas the dough batch using the sifted flour did. You said the second dough batch also used cold water and that the dough batch size (five dough balls) was the same as the one using the sifted flour. My assumption was that increasing the hydration might cause the wetter dough to climb the dough hook more.

It is true that increasing the amount of oil might result in improved oven spring. This is because the oil lubricates the gluten structure and seals in the gases and moisture so that the dough rises more during baking. However, to have this effect, you may need a fair amount of oil. If there is too much oil, it can have a tenderizing effect that may not be desired in a NY style pizza. If I recall correctly, you originally used 2% oil and that did not give you the rim height you were looking for. That would suggest using more than 2% oil. Maybe at some point you can try doing that. However, as you can see from Scott's post at Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21951.msg231191#msg231191 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21951.msg231191#msg231191) , he considers oil at above 3% to be outside of the realm of the NY style. He has voiced this same sentiment in several other posts.

Regrettably, designing a dough formulation to produce a pizza with a specific desired set of features and characteristics can be difficult and time consuming, especially if all of the features and characteristics are not mutually compatible. Also, the design has to be compatible with the equipment that is to be used to make the pizza, and there are usually certain time constraints that must be satisfied. In your case, you also have to contend with an environment that is uncertain and largely unpredictable from one week to the next. That is why it can take a lot of experimentation and testing and tweaking and time to achieve the desired end results, and to do so on a consistent basis.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 15, 2014, 08:13:13 AM
Norma,

My comment about the dough climbing the hook was based on what you recently reported at Reply 421 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg314831;topicseen#msg314831 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg314831;topicseen#msg314831)  where you mentioned that a second dough batch using unsifted flour did not climb the dough hook whereas the dough batch using the sifted flour did. You said the second dough batch also used cold water and that the dough batch size (five dough balls) was the same as the one using the sifted flour. My assumption was that increasing the hydration might cause the wetter dough to climb the dough hook more.

It is true that increasing the amount of oil might result in improved oven spring. This is because the oil lubricates the gluten structure and seals in the gases and moisture so that the dough rises more during baking. However, to have this effect, you may need a fair amount of oil. If there is too much oil, it can have a tenderizing effect that may not be desired in a NY style pizza. If I recall correctly, you originally used 2% oil and that did not give you the rim height you were looking for. That would suggest using more than 2% oil. Maybe at some point you can try doing that. However, as you can see from Scott's post at Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21951.msg231191#msg231191 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=21951.msg231191#msg231191) , he considers oil at above 3% to be outside of the realm of the NY style. He has voiced this same sentiment in several other posts.

Regrettably, designing a dough formulation to produce a pizza with a specific desired set of features and characteristics can be difficult and time consuming, especially if all of the features and characteristics are not mutually compatible. Also, the design has to be compatible with the equipment that is to be used to make the pizza, and there are usually certain time constraints that must be satisfied. In your case, you also have to contend with an environment that is uncertain and largely unpredictable from one week to the next. That is why it can take a lot of experimentation and testing and tweaking and time to achieve the desired end results, and to do so on a consistent basis.

Peter

Peter,

You are correct about what I reported at Reply 421.  I am also guess increasing the hydration will make the dough climb the hook again.  I guess I was thinking about using the flat beater to make the Detroit style doughs and having no problems with using a higher hydration. 

You are right that I did use 2% oil and that did not give me the rim height I was looking for.  I can understand that above 2% oil might have a tenderizing effect that may not be desirable in a NY style pizza.  I read Scott's post at Reply 18.  Scott once told me he liked the looks of my experimental pizzas using more oil than 2%, but I did not like the taste of those crusts or characteristics even though they looked okay.

I know it is very difficult to design a dough formulation to produce a pizza with a specific desired set of features and characteristics.  Also my oven is not up to par with other deck ovens. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 16, 2014, 05:25:54 PM
The next experimental 4-day cold fermented dough batch of 5 dough balls was made today.  The formulation that was used is in the photos.  This time ice water was used.  The temperature of the ice water can be seen on the one photo.  The dough was mixed by adding the water, flour, IDY, Kosher salt, and sugar, then mixing until they were incorporated which took about 1 ½ minutes.  The oil was then added.  It can be seen in the first video how the dough wanted to climb the hook.  After the rest period of 10 minutes the dough was mixed again.  The dough did not climb the hook after the rest period.  The dough did look and feel good after it was mixed and it was not sticky. 

I was somewhat surprised at the final dough temperature when using ice water.  I thought the final dough temperature might be lower.  The ambient room temperature inside market can be seen. 

I also got the sauce mess cleaned-up at market today. 

Videos

http://youtu.be/PiEWV0ABOis (http://youtu.be/PiEWV0ABOis) 

and

http://youtu.be/MhHbgasi7y0 (http://youtu.be/MhHbgasi7y0) 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 17, 2014, 10:02:29 AM
Norma,

I find your latest dough making results quite interesting. One of the things that I discovered when making cold doughs is that it is considerably harder to make cold doughs than warm doughs. This applies not only those ice-based doughs that member Les and I worked on or those that I discussed in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33251#msg33251 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33251#msg33251), but also to those that I made with the intention of freezing, much like is done by commercial producers of frozen dough balls. Generally speaking, it takes longer to make the cold doughs and, because of that, the finished dough temperature can rise during the kneading process (because of the heat of friction) to a point higher than might have been desired or intended. Commercial producers of frozen dough balls are well aware of the difficulties in kneading cold dough and, to make the process easier, they usually add a reducing agent such as L-cysteine or glutathione (dead yeast). That softens the dough and is something I read about in a PMQ Think Tank post by Tom Lehmann and that I reproduced in Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9121.msg84545#msg84545 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9121.msg84545#msg84545). I would imagine that one could also use PZ-44 even though that would add a bit of whey to the dough.

As an aside to the above post by Tom, note the finished dough temperature that was cited in that post for the dough to be frozen: 65F, with a variable tolerance of just +/- 1F. Your finished dough temperature--64.6 degrees F--fell within that range even though you will not be freezing your dough balls. It seems that you and Walter and I have all ended up in the mid-60 degrees F as finished dough temperatures when using cold or ice water.

From your recent report and from the videos, it appears that the hydration of the sifted flour proceeds slowly at the beginning, and results in some sticking to the dough hook, but improves once the dough is rested. This improvement may be due to the protease enzymes in the dough that soften the gluten structure during the rest period, much as what happens with a classic autolyse, while still allowing the flour to become more fully hydrated. Also, the fact that your dough did not feel sticky, despite an effective hydration of 65%, appears to be a benefit of using the sifted flour. That is a result that I also experienced when I used sifted flour, although I was also using all three attachments to my KitchenAid stand mixer, including the whisk.

Once you get more data from your experiments, you may well decide to dispense with sifting the flour to simplify the entire dough making process. You might even be able to substitute using cold water from your cooler rather than ice water so long as you can get a finished dough temperature in the 60s. For now, the goal is to see if we can increase the hydration of the flour without ending up with a sticky dough, and hopefully getting an improved rim height. 

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 17, 2014, 10:13:55 AM
Norma,

In my last post, I forgot to mention that there are mechanical ways of getting an increased rim height. One way would be to make a bit more dough and push the skin outwardly to physically increase the rim size and height pre-bake. You could also do that with your regular dough but that will result in a thinner skin within the rim. Another way would be to use your regular dough but let the skins sit for a while so that they can rise (proof). Then you could press and flatten the areas within the rims but not touch the rims themselves. Of course, you would need pizza screens or something similar to hold the skins while they rise, and the hydration of the dough would have to be such as not to stick to the screens or other carriers while the skins rise and to be able to transfer the skins to your peel for dressing. You would also need space within your work area at market to accommodate this added step.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 17, 2014, 11:53:12 AM
Norma,

I find your latest dough making results quite interesting. One of the things that I discovered when making cold doughs is that it is considerably harder to make cold doughs than warm doughs. This applies not only those ice-based doughs that member Les and I worked on or those that I discussed in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33251#msg33251 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33251#msg33251), but also to those that I made with the intention of freezing, much like is done by commercial producers of frozen dough balls. Generally speaking, it takes longer to make the cold doughs and, because of that, the finished dough temperature can rise during the kneading process (because of the heat of friction) to a point higher than might have been desired or intended. Commercial producers of frozen dough balls are well aware of the difficulties in kneading cold dough and, to make the process easier, they usually add a reducing agent such as L-cysteine or glutathione (dead yeast). That softens the dough and is something I read about in a PMQ Think Tank post by Tom Lehmann and that I reproduced in Reply 26 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9121.msg84545#msg84545 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9121.msg84545#msg84545). I would imagine that one could also use PZ-44 even though that would add a bit of whey to the dough.

As an aside to the above post by Tom, note the finished dough temperature that was cited in that post for the dough to be frozen: 65F, with a variable tolerance of just +/- 1F. Your finished dough temperature--64.6 degrees F--fell within that range even though you will not be freezing your dough balls. It seems that you and Walter and I have all ended up in the mid-60 degrees F as finished dough temperatures when using cold or ice water.

From your recent report and from the videos, it appears that the hydration of the sifted flour proceeds slowly at the beginning, and results in some sticking to the dough hook, but improves once the dough is rested. This improvement may be due to the protease enzymes in the dough that soften the gluten structure during the rest period, much as what happens with a classic autolyse, while still allowing the flour to become more fully hydrated. Also, the fact that your dough did not feel sticky, despite an effective hydration of 65%, appears to be a benefit of using the sifted flour. That is a result that I also experienced when I used sifted flour, although I was also using all three attachments to my KitchenAid stand mixer, including the whisk.

Once you get more data from your experiments, you may well decide to dispense with sifting the flour to simplify the entire dough making process. You might even be able to substitute using cold water from your cooler rather than ice water so long as you can get a finished dough temperature in the 60s. For now, the goal is to see if we can increase the hydration of the flour without ending up with a sticky dough, and hopefully getting an improved rim height. 

Peter

Peter,

When using the Hobart it really wasn't a lot harder to make the dough yesterday.  It was the one mix that the dough wanted to climb the hook (which I needed to remove the dough from the hook two times).  Other than that it seemed like a normal mix, except for the rest period.  I can understand that generally speaking, the finished dough temperature can rise from the process. 

Thanks for the link in Reply 26,  I find that interesting in all it takes to make frozen dough balls that are good to be used for awhile and make a decent pizza crust. 

I noted the finished dough temperature in your post about dough that was meant to be frozen.  I agree, it does seem like Walter, you and I all ended up in the mid 60 degrees F as finished dough temperatures when using cold or ice water.  I wanted to mention if someone else tries this I almost made a mistake yesterday in weighing the ice water.  I had the ice and the water in another container other than the red container.  I used a sieve on top of the container I normally use to weigh water.  Both were tared out.  I left the sieve on when weighing the ice water (to keep the ice from falling in the water).  I then looked and there was ice in the sieve after weighing the ice water.  I then thought I have no idea if ice and water weight the same in weights.  I then got another container and poured the ice water into it without using a sieve. 

I agree that it appears that the hydration of the sifted flour proceeds slowly at the beginning, but did improve once the dough is rested.  Interesting that your thoughts that the improvement may be due to the protease enzymes in the dough that soften the gluten structure during the rest period. 

Thanks for telling me I might be able to use cold water instead of the ice water as long as I could get a finished dough temperature in the 60's.  I think in warmer months when the flour is sitting in ambient temperatures in the 90's I probably will have to use ice water if this experiment works out.

Norma   
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 17, 2014, 12:04:29 PM
Norma,

In my last post, I forgot to mention that there are mechanical ways of getting an increased rim height. One way would be to make a bit more dough and push the skin outwardly to physically increase the rim size and height pre-bake. You could also do that with your regular dough but that will result in a thinner skin within the rim. Another way would be to use your regular dough but let the skins sit for a while so that they can rise (proof). Then you could press and flatten the areas within the rims but not touch the rims themselves. Of course, you would need pizza screens or something similar to hold the skins while they rise, and the hydration of the dough would have to be such as not to stick to the screens or other carriers while the skins rise and to be able to transfer the skins to your peel for dressing. You would also need space within your work area at market to accommodate this added step.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for mentioning there are other ways to get an increased rim height.  I could try a pizza screen with parchment paper and let the skin rise to see if that helps.  How would I keep the skin from drying out though? I tried something similar to that before, but that was just to get dough skins ahead when I was not as fast at making pizzas.  I had food grade plastic bags then to put on my one side rack to cover those skins.  I don't have those food grade plastic bags anymore. 

So far all of these 4-day cold fermented doughs opened up so easily that I don't know if I would be able to push some of the skin outwardly to physically increase the rim size.  Maybe I could, but that is nothing I tried before. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 18, 2014, 01:02:18 PM
Thanks for mentioning there are other ways to get an increased rim height.  I could try a pizza screen with parchment paper and let the skin rise to see if that helps.  How would I keep the skin from drying out though? I tried something similar to that before, but that was just to get dough skins ahead when I was not as fast at making pizzas.  I had food grade plastic bags then to put on my one side rack to cover those skins.  I don't have those food grade plastic bags anymore. 

Norma
Norma,

In your case, you might try make a skin and let it sit uncovered for about a half hour. The actual time may vary depending on the temperature of the dough ball when it is opened to form a skin and thereafter on the ambient room temperature. So you may want to keep an eye on the skin, and if it looks like it wants to dry out, I would cover it with something, such as a large container if you have one or with a sheet of plastic wrap. If you were to make and hold several skins at one time, you would perhaps want to use a rack as is often used by pizza operators when they think they are about to be slammed.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 18, 2014, 04:00:08 PM
Norma,

In your case, you might try make a skin and let it sit uncovered for about a half hour. The actual time may vary depending on the temperature of the dough ball when it is opened to form a skin and thereafter on the ambient room temperature. So you may want to keep an eye on the skin, and if it looks like it wants to dry out, I would cover it with something, such as a large container if you have one or with a sheet of plastic wrap. If you were to make and hold several skins at one time, you would perhaps want to use a rack as is often used by pizza operators when they think they are about to be slammed.

Peter

Peter,

If I have a skin that is almost open and get busy waiting on customers the skin can get somewhat dry in that short amount of time.  I then usually use the drier part for the bottom of the pizza.  This time of the year at least one fan is running all the time on a Tuesday.  If it is really warm two fans are running, so skins can dry out fairly fast.  I will look it I can find some kind of large plastic container at market to cover the skin.  I don't even think I have a bigger screen than 16”, but will check.  I do have a big roll of plastic wrap.  I do have a rack on the right of where I open up the dough balls that might be like what are used by pizza operators.  That one was the one I used before when trying to get ahead with skins.  The other rack on the left of where I open the dough balls holds pizza trays.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 18, 2014, 04:44:50 PM
Norma,

Now that you have explained your situation with the fans at market, it looks like you would have to cover the skins with something. Actually, I think it would be better to avoid proofing skins altogether unless you can find a way to do it efficiently. Even using more dough and pushing it to the outside to make a larger rim isn't a guarantee that you will get the desired rim. It might be bigger but with a texture that you might not like.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 18, 2014, 04:59:56 PM
Norma,

Now that you have explained your situation with the fans at market, it looks like you would have to cover the skins with something. Actually, I think it would be better to avoid proofing skins altogether unless you can find a way to do it efficiently. Even using more dough and pushing it to the outside to make a larger rim isn't a guarantee that you will get the desired rim. It might be bigger but with a texture that you might not like.

Peter

Peter,

I was trying to think what I might have at home that might work.  I do have a 18” thicker pizza peel at home that I could take to market.  Maybe I could use parchment paper on the thicker pizza peel and try to cover the skin with plastic wrap.  I really don't want a large rim like my boardwalk pies I am now making.  I just want the experimental dough pizza to have a little more oven spring.  I am probably asking for too much, but will see what happens. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on May 18, 2014, 07:15:15 PM
Norma:  Have you tried letting the dough sit on the bench till it has reached maximum rise?  This is what I aim for and then if you do not mess with the edge of the crust you should get a nice rise on the rim.  Also if the dough balls start to dry out on top while in the dough boxes I spray them with a bit of water and in a few minutes they are nice and moist on top.  A damp cloth would work as well  This usually happens when I pull dough right from the fridge to get it to warm up quick on top of one of the ovens with a spacer between it and the oven so as not to give too much heat or directly on top of our proofing box(the dough boxes won't fit in the racks due to me setting them up for full sheet pans for our breads/bagels and the height between shelves is too low for the dough boxes).  I always use the top of the dough ball for the bottom of the pizza.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 18, 2014, 10:41:01 PM
Norma:  Have you tried letting the dough sit on the bench till it has reached maximum rise?  This is what I aim for and then if you do not mess with the edge of the crust you should get a nice rise on the rim.  Also if the dough balls start to dry out on top while in the dough boxes I spray them with a bit of water and in a few minutes they are nice and moist on top.  A damp cloth would work as well  This usually happens when I pull dough right from the fridge to get it to warm up quick on top of one of the ovens with a spacer between it and the oven so as not to give too much heat or directly on top of our proofing box(the dough boxes won't fit in the racks due to me setting them up for full sheet pans for our breads/bagels and the height between shelves is too low for the dough boxes).  I always use the top of the dough ball for the bottom of the pizza.  Walter

Walter,

I think the photo of the one dough ball at Reply 468 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg315987#msg315987 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg315987#msg315987)  did rise on the bench until it reached maximum rise, or almost maximum rise.  You can see what a mess that dough ball was, but then it wanted to stick to the plastic bag.  That dough balls had lots of fermentation bubbles.  The reason I let it go so long was because I didn't have time to get to it sooner and the ambient temperature was warm were it was tempering.  I want to try a dough tray at some point in time.  The other week when they were on sale I did not have time to go to the webrestaurant store to purchase a dough tray.  Maybe the next time I go to the webrestaurant store I will purchase a dough tray.  Dough balls rise differently in plastic bags and I can not always tell at what point of fermentation they are at.  Thanks for telling me you always use the top of the dough ball for the bottom of the pizza if they dry out a little.  Thanks also for the photo of your dough balls.  Is that photo when your dough balls are highly fermented?

Norma 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on May 19, 2014, 06:02:17 AM
Norma:  The photo shows them at near peak.  A bit more time and they would start having big bubbles.  I like to catch them just before that happens.  Make sure you buy a cambro dough box.  I have bought the cheaper knockoffs and they do not fit together tightly and the dough dries out in the fridge. I never used plastic bags to rise dough. Will they fit in your prep fridge?  I know depending on where the compressor unit is set affects that. Ours is mounted to the side of the fridge cabinets which allows for full sheet pans/dough boxes to fit in. Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 19, 2014, 08:21:16 AM
Norma:  The photo shows them at near peak.  A bit more time and they would start having big bubbles.  I like to catch them just before that happens.  Make sure you buy a cambro dough box.  I have bought the cheaper knockoffs and they do not fit together tightly and the dough dries out in the fridge. I never used plastic bags to rise dough. Will they fit in your prep fridge?  I know depending on where the compressor unit is set affects that. Ours is mounted to the side of the fridge cabinets which allows for full sheet pans/dough boxes to fit in. Walter

Walter,

Thanks for telling me in your photo the dough balls were near peak.  I know when Steve made NY style dough balls for his Airstream WFO some of his dough balls wanted to run together and he was only using a 2-day cold ferment.  He then lowered his amount of IDY and they were okay after that.  I do not have enough space in the prep fridge for regular sized dough boxes.

Going back in time to June 2009. I also was having problems with my dough balls.  If you or anyone else is interested this is what I posted to Tom Lehmann on PMQ Thin Tank and what Tom and other members on PMQ Think Tank responded to me.  http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/question-for-tom.7398/ (http://thinktank.pmq.com/threads/question-for-tom.7398/)  There is where Tom Lehmann gave me the idea to use plastic bags to store my dough balls because I did not have space in the prep fridge to store regular sized dough boxes.  I did not recall all the replies I was given in that thread until I looked today.  You can see what Tom told me about lowering the yeast amount was not the way to go, and suggested a finished dough temperature of 70-75 degrees F for a 4-day cold fermented dough.  The white storage boxes I was using then are the ones at Reply 22  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8341.msg72738#msg72738 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8341.msg72738#msg72738)  It can been seen at Reply 113 what happened when I tried a 4-day cold ferment.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8341.msg75733#msg75733 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8341.msg75733#msg75733)   :-D I then went to using the lids for the white storage containers and used plastic bags. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on May 19, 2014, 01:03:49 PM
Norma:  Thanks for those links.  I guess you are stuck with the bags for now and are doing all you can with their limitations.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 19, 2014, 05:55:36 PM

I guess you are stuck with the bags for now and are doing all you can with their limitations.  Walter


Walter,

Yes, I am stuck with those plastic bags.  I would like to see what my rim crusts would look like if I tried using dough boxes.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 19, 2014, 05:58:31 PM
The first two photos are how much the experimental dough fermented in 3 days.  It doesn't look like it fermented very much by looking at the spacing of the poppy seeds, but when the dough ball is held up the bottom of the dough ball does show fermentation bubbles.  All of the 5 dough balls felt firm.  I took the leftover piece of dough (from the bowl residue compensation) and tried to stretch it again today.  The small piece of dough stretched very well. 

It was about 68 degrees F inside market today.  Bottled water was used to make the dough batches and the water was already at market.  All the other ingredients would have been at the same temperature.  The final dough temperature for the regular boardwalk dough batch was 70.7 degrees F.  I know that is a low final dough temperature but the dough balls will be ready to make pizzas by tomorrow morning.  The other batches of dough made today were about the same temperature. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Tampa on May 20, 2014, 05:19:45 PM
Bobino and I tried to make NY pie today on my Blackstone to see if we could help Norma.  I’m not sure we achieved the goal, but everyone walked away full.  Here are the results.

All pies were 270g Kyrol.  Bobino will have to fill in hydration (60ish) and other dough questions.

NY1 – Included 2% sugar.  Launched at 530 stone temp, baked 8 minutes.  Flamed turned up toward the end for color.  Result – meh.

NY2 – Also 2% sugar.  Launched at 550F stone, baked 6:30 minutes.  Flame turned up after 30 seconds for color.  Result – Ok.

NY3 – No sugar.  Launched at 530F stone, baked 6 minutes.  Flame turned up at launch and color added for 1 minute, followed by 5 minutes on low.  Result – yum – nice spring, good color, love the crisp.

Dave
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 20, 2014, 09:55:04 PM
Bobino and I tried to make NY pie today on my Blackstone to see if we could help Norma.  I’m not sure we achieved the goal, but everyone walked away full.  Here are the results.

All pies were 270g Kyrol.  Bobino will have to fill in hydration (60ish) and other dough questions.

NY1 – Included 2% sugar.  Launched at 530 stone temp, baked 8 minutes.  Flamed turned up toward the end for color.  Result – meh.

NY2 – Also 2% sugar.  Launched at 550F stone, baked 6:30 minutes.  Flame turned up after 30 seconds for color.  Result – Ok.

NY3 – No sugar.  Launched at 530F stone, baked 6 minutes.  Flame turned up at launch and color added for 1 minute, followed by 5 minutes on low.  Result – yum – nice spring, good color, love the crisp.

Dave

Dave,

Thanks to Bobino and you for thinking of me to see if you could help me bake a NY style pie in your Blackstone that might help me with what I want to achieve in my BS.   ;D

I enjoyed looking at the photos and reading the stone temperatures and baked times.  The bottom crust of NY3 looks just what I am looking for.

I will have to try your, or Bobino's formulation, for the NY3 if you can give me the exact formulation.

I had some interesting results in the deck oven with 5 identical test dough balls today.  I would have never thought just a different dough ball opening technique could make so much of a difference in oven spring.  Maybe it wasn't just the opening technique but it sure seemed that way to Steve and me. 

Norma 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 21, 2014, 09:11:41 AM
These were the results of the 5 experimental dough balls that was cold fermented for 4-days.  The dough was made with ice water and the other different steps that were taken to make this batch of dough.  Steve and I thought the results on the 5 dough balls from the same batch of dough when made into pizzas were very interesting.  The results had us scratching our heads on a lot of the results, and made us wonder why things happen.  I don't ever recall ever having such different results on pizzas made from the same batch of dough.  I have no idea if it was the dough formulation, methods used for mixing, or other things that might have made these results so different.  :-\

The first dough ball was opened normally, by flouring and opening the dough ball and stretching the skin on both sides.  The dough ball was very easy to open.  As can be seen there was not a lot of rim rise and not a lot of coloration on the rim crust.  The rim crust was moist though and the bottom crust coloration was okay.  Photo number 5481 show the dough mate dough box Steve brought me to try for either my regular dough balls, or more experimental dough balls.  That smaller dough box will fit in my prep fridge.  Photo number 5480 shows the rim crust on the experimental dough on the top pizza tray and the regular boardwalk pizza rim crust on the bottom pizza tray.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 21, 2014, 09:16:21 AM
One other thing I want to note is that none of these dough skins I will be posting about for the experimental dough ball skins had a lot of bubbles of fermentation in them.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 21, 2014, 09:24:24 AM
The next set of photos show what happened with the dough ball that was opened differently.  It was opened somewhat like Peter told me to try in that it was opened with a larger rim.  I did try something else different on this dough ball.  It was only opened on the top side of the dough ball.  The bottom side of the skin was then used for the bottom crust. 

The first photos show what the spacing of the poppy seeds looked like at about 2:30 PM and the next set of photos of the spacing of the poppy seeds show what the dough ball looked like at about 5:20 PM, when the dough ball was used to make a pizza.  It can be seen when tempering for almost 3 hours at an ambient temperature of about 83 degrees F how the dough ball did not ferment a lot in that amount of time.  There was good oven spring when the dough ball was opened this way.  The rim crust also had more coloration and was very moist.  The bottom crust baked okay.  Steve and I were trying to figure out why this rim crust had better coloration than the first pizza.  We don't know if it was because of the increased oven spring or not, or what other contributing factors were involved. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 21, 2014, 09:30:19 AM
Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 21, 2014, 09:31:27 AM
Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 21, 2014, 09:44:37 AM
The third dough ball and pizza Steve and I decided to call it the “Mummy's Curse” because it had to be entombed for awhile, and the final pizza did not turn out that good.  :-D When I first opened the dough ball and put it on the heavier 18” wooden peel I had forgot to place the parchment paper on the wooden peel first.  Steve decided to encase the skin on the peel with aluminum foil.  The "Mummy skin" had to be removed from the wooden peel that was held up by the “exalted one”(the scale that weighed its ingredients).  OMG, if that peel and “Mummy Curse” skin would have every fallen on someone.  :o Luckily that did not happen.  When I recalled the parchment paper was forgotten the skin was not sticking too much to the peel and the skin was okay to remove for the parchment paper placement.  The skin tempered from 2:48 PM until 6:05 PM.  We thought that was enough time for it to rise if it wanted to.  The aluminum foil wanted to stick to the skin, but not too bad, when it was removed.  We thought it was interesting when the pizza was baking on the parchment paper that the cheese and sauce did not look like they were blending together.  When the parchment paper was removed to finish the bake the cheese and sauce blended quickly.  The one part of the bottom crust wanted to get too dark so a screen was placed underneath a part of the pizza.  What we thought was interesting about this pizza was the bottom crust was way too thin.  We don't know why that happened.

Norma   
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 21, 2014, 09:49:48 AM
Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 21, 2014, 10:05:38 AM
The fourth dough ball and pizza I didn't have a lot of time to take photos, but it was opened using the same technique as I opened the second dough ball.  It can be seen how sticky the dough ball was on the bottom of the dough ball in the plastic bag.  The dough ball came out okay though and after flouring it opened well and very easily.  That dough ball sat out a long while before it was made into a pizza.  I don't think I stretched the skin of the second pizza to the whole way to 16.5”, so for the one I did stretch the skin more.  These are the only photos I took of that pizza and the dough ball.  This pizza also had a better rim rise and a good bottom crust coloration.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 21, 2014, 10:10:17 AM
I had planned on saving the 5th dough ball to try out in the BS, but that was not meant to be.  Near the end of the evening Raub subs employees ordered 3 whole pizzas and I had to use that experimental dough ball to make one of the pizzas.  I opened that dough ball on both sides and was not careful of the rim when opening it.  The last pizza had better rim coloration but not a lot of oven spring.

These write-ups and trying to get the photos in the right order took too much time, but that is the only way I could explain what happened.  Sorry if there are too many photos. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 21, 2014, 10:13:50 AM
The last set of photos are a few photos of the regular 1-day cold fermented dough pizzas from yesterday.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 21, 2014, 01:10:57 PM
Norma,

It looks and sounds like you and Steve had a lot of fun and interesting times playing around with the five dough balls. Can you tell us if you liked the pizzas, and which one you liked the best? And what surprised you the most and was there anything that you wanted to make better?

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on May 21, 2014, 01:28:32 PM
Norma:  So which one was the winner?  Did some sit out longer than others?  My dough changes as it sits on the bench.  I always use the top of the dough ball for the bottom of the crust and also only work that one side.  I have seen people flip the dough over and work both sides.  Our dough is always a bit wet.  I like it that way.  It makes a better crust for my taste.   Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Bobino414 on May 21, 2014, 02:16:10 PM
Norma
As noted above Dave and I did some experiments to help you get your desired brown bottom with some crisp.  I think we achieved this on the third bake.  To start out we zeroed in on the dough where we would add additional sugar for browning and eliminate oil to decrease softness.  If this didn't work we would then lower the hydration of the dough. 
We made 270 gram dough balls to fit in the BS.  Kyrol, 60% hydration, 2% sugar, 1.75% salt, .53% IDY, mix 7 minutes in Bosch, rest 1 hour, scale and ball, refrig(38-41 degrees) 2 days, room temp 1-2 hours prior to bake.
The first pie with sugar sucked.  The second pie without sugar sucked.  We tossed the third sugar dough in the garbage.  Third bake was a dough without sugar and I think we ended up with what you want-darkish crispy bottom.  The rest of the pie had San Marzanos, Grande whole milk and Supremo Italiano(Restaurant Depot) part skim.

  I would have never thought just a different dough ball opening technique could make so much of a difference in oven spring.  Maybe it wasn't just the opening technique but it sure seemed that way to Steve and me. 
 

I think opening technique is very important to having a puffy cornichone.  Notice how in the video at 2:13 Diana demarcates the edge; she pushes down and away from the center causing the rim to roll toward her.  If you combine this motion with side stretching you will end up with a puffy crispy crust.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbkfDqA8yKg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbkfDqA8yKg)

So if you follow Dave's NY3 bake method I think you will be happy.

Bob




Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 21, 2014, 06:42:21 PM
Norma,

It looks and sounds like you and Steve had a lot of fun and interesting times playing around with the five dough balls. Can you tell us if you liked the pizzas, and which one you liked the best? And what surprised you the most and was there anything that you wanted to make better?

Peter

Peter,

Yes, Steve and I did have a lot of fun playing around with the five experimental dough balls, but then there are always questions why stuff happens with pizzas.  I did like the pizza with the moist puffy rim the best.  I think that same pizza surprised me the most in that it did get good oven spring, decent rim crust coloration and decent bottom crust browning.  Thanks for telling me to try a different way of opening that dough ball.  If I would have had more time I would have liked to try some other different things with some of the dough balls (like baking a pizza on parchment paper).  I learned a lot about trying different methods though.

I really like how easily the experimental dough balls can be opened.  That would be a plus alone to me.

The one thing that make me wonder is what to try next?  Another thing I did not mention is I had my regular taste testers that normally try my experimental pizzas try some of the slices from the pizza I thought was the best and the next best.  I thought there interesting comments ranging from they liked my regular 1-day dough pizzas better, there was more chew in the experimental pizza and one taste tester said was better than my normal 1-day cold fermented pizzas.  I gave two regular customers slices and was somewhat surprised at what they said.  The one man usually purchases 4 slices a week.  He is the man from NYC that moved here now and he had tried many pizzas in NYC.  He said he liked my normal 1-day pizzas better.  The other regular customer also like my regular 1-day pizzas better.  I sure don't know what I am going to do.

I forgot to mention that the last dough ball was opened cold right out of the prep fridge.  It still opened well.

Norma 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 21, 2014, 06:57:06 PM
Norma:  So which one was the winner?  Did some sit out longer than others?  My dough changes as it sits on the bench.  I always use the top of the dough ball for the bottom of the crust and also only work that one side.  I have seen people flip the dough over and work both sides.  Our dough is always a bit wet.  I like it that way.  It makes a better crust for my taste.   Walter

Walter,

You can see in my last post that Steve and I thought the winner was the pizzas with the puffier rim crusts.  The thing that still confuses us, is that we don't think we could tell the differences in the taste of the 4-day cold fermented crusts, from the differences in a 1-day cold ferment crust, if we didn't know it was an experiment.  We could notice the moister texture of the rim crust and the little bit crisper bottom crust though.

Some of the dough balls did sit out longer.  The dough balls that did sit out longer did not change that much no matter how long they tempered. 

Thanks for telling me you always use the top of the dough ball for the bottom of the crust and also only work that one side.  I do normally flip the dough over and work both sides since I can not rotate the dough on the marble table right now. 

The experimental dough balls were a little wet but not much.  Thanks for telling me you like how a wetter dough give a better crust for your taste.

Steve had to shred more cheese by hand because we ran out near the end of the night.  We went through over 38 lbs. of cheese yesterday.  That is not a lot of cheese for a big pizza business but was a lot for me.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 21, 2014, 07:18:21 PM
Norma
As noted above Dave and I did some experiments to help you get your desired brown bottom with some crisp.  I think we achieved this on the third bake.  To start out we zeroed in on the dough where we would add additional sugar for browning and eliminate oil to decrease softness.  If this didn't work we would then lower the hydration of the dough. 
We made 270 gram dough balls to fit in the BS.  Kyrol, 60% hydration, 2% sugar, 1.75% salt, .53% IDY, mix 7 minutes in Bosch, rest 1 hour, scale and ball, refrig(38-41 degrees) 2 days, room temp 1-2 hours prior to bake.
The first pie with sugar sucked.  The second pie without sugar sucked.  We tossed the third sugar dough in the garbage.  Third bake was a dough without sugar and I think we ended up with what you want-darkish crispy bottom.  The rest of the pie had San Marzanos, Grande whole milk and Supremo Italiano(Restaurant Depot) part skim.

I think opening technique is very important to having a puffy cornichone.  Notice how in the video at 2:13 Diana demarcates the edge; she pushes down and away from the center causing the rim to roll toward her.  If you combine this motion with side stretching you will end up with a puffy crispy crust.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbkfDqA8yKg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbkfDqA8yKg)

So if you follow Dave's NY3 bake method I think you will be happy.

Bob

Bobino414,

Thanks so much for doing the experiments to help me get the desired brown bottom crust with some crispy.  It sure looks like you both achieved that on the third bake.   :chef:

Thanks for the formulation.  If you used 270 grams what was the size of those pizzas in inches?

Thanks also for the video of Diana and how she demarcates the edge, then pushes down and away from the center causing the rim to roll toward her.  I used to open up my dough ball somewhat like that but since there are scratches on the marble table (from dividing dough on it), and sometimes when flour sticks to the marble table from humidity, I can not do that most of the time.  I need to find a strong man to be able to help me either take the marble slab off, flip it over, or get some kind of sander to make the marble slippery again.  :-D

Maybe you or Dave might want to link your posts to the main BS thread, or to my BS thread for anyone else that might need help in achieving what both of you did.

I don't know if I will find time to try your formulation this week, but I will try it and the bake temperature.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 21, 2014, 08:30:52 PM
Norma,

It is hard to say why the second dough ball produced the best pizza in your opinion. Even with identical, or nearly identical, dough balls, there can still be a lot of subtle variables from one pizza to another at market to lead you to wonder how that can be.

From a post mortem analytical standpoint, it is possible that the way you formed the rim for the second dough ball resulted in the increased oven spring, and that the resultant increased openness and rise in the dough made it have increased insulative properties such that the oven heat was directed more to the bottom crust rather than passing through it to the top side of the pizza. To the extent that that allowed a longer total bake time, the sugar in the dough might also have contributed to the increased crust coloration. Although it is always nice to know why something happened, what is perhaps more important from your perspective is to be able to reproduce the results you achieved with the second dough ball. If you can do that, then the reason is not all that important. Even then, there can be some variations. Even the best and most successful pizza operators cannot turn out identical pizzas every time.

As far as a comparison of the pizzas made with the four-day and one-day cold fermentations, it is hard for me to imagine that a pizza made with a one-day dough would be better than one made with a four-day dough. Maybe your taste testers were acclimated more to pizzas with much shorter fermentation times. After all, tHere really aren't many pizza professionals who make a four-day NY style pizza. In your case, it is good to know that you can have two options (one-day and four-day) for your pizzas that your customers like even if they can't agree on which is better.

In any event, it sounds like your pizza business is doing considerably better and that your pizzas are resonating with your customers. That is good news.

Peter

Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on May 21, 2014, 08:45:21 PM
Norma: That is a lot of cheese and work for your oven! I still am amazed you guys can't really tell the difference between a 1 and 4 day feremented dough.  I am not doubting your taste buds but I wish I could have you come out and taste our 4 day and 1 day dough as well as bring your 1 and 4 day dough.  Maybe the ovens do have a bigger influence on the taste than I think.  I never worked with an oven like yours so I have no real idea if this is so or not. The only difference I see in our doughes with ice water is you add sugar and I don't. 

This week we are also getting busier each day and my normal 20 dough balls a day are running out in under the first hour of the the 3 hour lunch period ( 3-50 minute lunch periods a day we have).  I think with school ending June 3rd is making people buy it up while they can.  Today I had to take about 10  dough balls right out of the fridge that I wanted to ferment another day or 2 to keep up. Some were out long enough to warm up.  Both the cold and warm doughes tasted much blander than the 4 day dough. Tomorrow is the last day of the week for us and today I had to make 15- 24 hour dough balls to hopefully keep us in dough tomorrow.  It sounds like to me if the 1 day dough is easier on you it is the way to go because nothing is jumping out and saying the 4 day is smoking better.  I wonder why Steve had to hand grate cheese.  I thought you had a pelican shredder for you mixer.  Walter

PS: Peter posted while I was typing.  He is right in that most NY pizzerias do same day or 1 day dough.  I was raised on that but since I found the multi day ferment I don't like the same day/1 day dough anymore.  I did a french bread dough today that was mixed with ice water and sat 2 days in the fridge.  My wife had some tonight and said the flavor was much deeper than my traditional same day french bread. 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 21, 2014, 09:55:50 PM
Norma,

It is hard to say why the second dough ball produced the best pizza in your opinion. Even with identical, or nearly identical, dough balls, there can still be a lot of subtle variables from one pizza to another at market to lead you to wonder how that can be.

From a post mortem analytical standpoint, it is possible that the way you formed the rim for the second dough ball resulted in the increased oven spring, and that the resultant increased openness and rise in the dough made it have increased insulative properties such that the oven heat was directed more to the bottom crust rather than passing through it to the top side of the pizza. To the extent that that allowed a longer total bake time, the sugar in the dough might also have contributed to the increased crust coloration. Although it is always nice to know why something happened, what is perhaps more important from your perspective is to be able to reproduce the results you achieved with the second dough ball. If you can do that, then the reason is not all that important. Even then, there can be some variations. Even the best and most successful pizza operators cannot turn out identical pizzas every time.

As far as a comparison of the pizzas made with the four-day and one-day cold fermentations, it is hard for me to imagine that a pizza made with a one-day dough would be better than one made with a four-day dough. Maybe your taste testers were acclimated more to pizzas with much shorter fermentation times. After all, tHere really aren't many pizza professionals who make a four-day NY style pizza. In your case, it is good to know that you can have two options (one-day and four-day) for your pizzas that your customers like even if they can't agree on which is better.

In any event, it sounds like your pizza business is doing considerably better and that your pizzas are resonating with your customers. That is good news.

Peter

Peter,

I like a moist rims, and as you might know I do like oven spring in rims.  I agree with your post mortem analysis.  I didn't time any of the bakes though.  I guess I will do another experimental 4-day cold fermented batch of dough to see if I can reproduce the same results.  Since I don't think I stretched that pizza to the full 16.5”, or a little more, do you think I should increase the TF for the next batch?  I also have the nagging feeling that non sifted flour won't work out as well as sifted flour did in controlling the stickiness of the 65% hydration dough.  I think I will also try out Steve's DoughMate box this Friday to see if that keeps the dough balls more uniform in roundness.  I notice a lot of times that the dough balls that come out of the plastic bags are not completely round and then I have to work with them before opening them to make them round. 

It is also hard for me to imagine that a pizza made with a 1-day dough would be better than one made with a 4-day dough too.  I do notice a lot more fermentation bubbles in my 1-day cold fermented skins than the recent 4-day dough experimental skins.  I don't know if that means anything or not for the taste of the crust.  Steve and I are trying to figure that one out, but so far we can't.  The 4-day dough was better in our opinions but not by much.  My taste testers have tried a variety of experimental pizzas I have made and even sourdough pizzas.  I don't think if I would not have told my taste testers the slices were experimental they wouldn't have been able to tell any differences.  I don't think many regular customers have ever tasted a 4-day cold fermented dough pizzas.  I would like to go with the 4-day cold fermented dough just because I like it better.  I sure don't know about my customers though. 

Yes, I also think it is good news that finally my pizza business is picking up.  I said to Steve near the end of yesterday that I had said not too long ago that I had wished for that to happen for a long while.  Steve and I laughed and he said maybe I should be careful what I wished for.  We both were pooped at the end of the day.  More and more customers are telling their friends that I offer pizzas like Mack's, Manco & Manco and Grotto's.  I really don't think my pizzas taste anything like a Grotto's pizza, but a lot of my customers do.  One woman potential customer asked me what a boardwalk style of pizza was yesterday.  I said it is something like a Mack's, Manco & Manco, or a Grotto's  pizza.  She said that was what she was hoping I would say.  I had quite a few new customers yesterday that came back and told me they really enjoyed my boardwalk pizza.  I am glad I made the switch to boardwalk style pizzas and the Detroit style pizzas.  With no more room for anything else in my small stand I don't know what we will do if I get busier.  I don't think my old body could handle a lot more in the summer months either. 

I saw on Wildwood's365 facebook page today they posted two slices of Mack's pizza.  People sure liked that.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 21, 2014, 10:15:05 PM
Norma: That is a lot of cheese and work for your oven! I still am amazed you guys can't really tell the difference between a 1 and 4 day feremented dough.  I am not doubting your taste buds but I wish I could have you come out and taste our 4 day and 1 day dough as well as bring your 1 and 4 day dough.  Maybe the ovens do have a bigger influence on the taste than I think.  I never worked with an oven like yours so I have no real idea if this is so or not. The only difference I see in our doughes with ice water is you add sugar and I don't. 

This week we are also getting busier each day and my normal 20 dough balls a day are running out in under the first hour of the the 3 hour lunch period ( 3-50 minute lunch periods a day we have).  I think with school ending June 3rd is making people buy it up while they can.  Today I had to take about 10  dough balls right out of the fridge that I wanted to ferment another day or 2 to keep up. Some were out long enough to warm up.  Both the cold and warm doughes tasted much blander than the 4 day dough. Tomorrow is the last day of the week for us and today I had to make 15- 24 hour dough balls to hopefully keep us in dough tomorrow.  It sounds like to me if the 1 day dough is easier on you it is the way to go because nothing is jumping out and saying the 4 day is smoking better.  I wonder why Steve had to hand grate cheese.  I thought you had a pelican shredder for you mixer.  Walter

PS: Peter posted while I was typing.  He is right in that most NY pizzerias do same day or 1 day dough.  I was raised on that but since I found the multi day ferment I don't like the same day/1 day dough anymore.  I did a french bread dough today that was mixed with ice water and sat 2 days in the fridge.  My wife had some tonight and said the flavor was much deeper than my traditional same day french bread.

Walter,

I agree that was a lot of work for my oven yesterday.  With reheating slices all the time, and making the pizzas, it is a wonder how it can hold as much heat as it does for such a small BTU deck oven.  Steve makes many NY style doughs that are fermented for much more than 1-day.  He just made some NY style longer fermented dough last week when he went to the Gettysburg Bluegrass Festival for a few days.  He baked the pizzas in his modded BBQ grill and then used some of the dough balls to make pizzas when he returned home.  I think Steve would be able to tell better than me if my pizzas are way off in the taste of the crust from a 1-day to a 4-day cold fermentation.  I would like to try out your 4-day and 1-day dough pizzas.  I have no idea if the ovens have a bigger influence on taste or not. 

That is good news that you are also getting busier each day. 

Steve had to hand grate the cheese because if I would have gotten the Pelican Head out and attached it to the mixer it would have been too hard to use the prep fridge to dress the pizzas and also have access to the cash register.  You might not realize how small my pizza stand is.  I guess we could have tried to work around the Pelican head some way though.  Steve is very fast at hand shredding cheese with the box grater.  I hate to have him have to do that though.  I thought I had enough cheese shredded.     

I have made multi-day cold fermented doughs that I thought were much better in the taste of the crusts, but for some reason the formulations I am using right now do not taste a lot different.  Thanks for telling me about the French bread dough that you used ice water and it sat 2 days in the fridge.

Norma   
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 22, 2014, 12:05:28 PM
I like a moist rims, and as you might know I do like oven spring in rims.  I agree with your post mortem analysis.  I didn't time any of the bakes though.  I guess I will do another experimental 4-day cold fermented batch of dough to see if I can reproduce the same results.  Since I don't think I stretched that pizza to the full 16.5”, or a little more, do you think I should increase the TF for the next batch?  I also have the nagging feeling that non sifted flour won't work out as well as sifted flour did in controlling the stickiness of the 65% hydration dough.Norma
Norma,

When I suggested in Reply 488 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg316346#msg316346 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg316346#msg316346) that you might want to consider increasing the amount of dough a bit to allow for a larger rim, I was concerned that you might not like the finished texture of the rim. However, when you stretched the skin made from the second dough ball to less than the full 16.5", you in effect increased the thickness factor for that skin. And, as it so happened, you liked the results. So, sometime you might want to increase the thickness factor up front to allow for a bit more dough. For example, if you are currently using a thickness factor of 0.08, you might increase it to 0.09 to see if that does the trick.

As for sifting or not sifting the flour, the reason I suggested that you try sifting the flour was not only to better hydrate the flour but also to try to "squeeze" more water into the dough and thereby increase its hydration but without ending up with a final dough that was on the wet side or hard to handle. The hope was that the higher hydration would translate into increased oven spring and, hence, a larger rim, without having to increase the oven bake temperature. At some point, you might go back to using unsifted flour if one of the physical methods of increasing the size of the rim pans out.

Further to the matter of the one-day dough versus the four-day dough, there will be differences in the final crust flavor, apart from the Maillard reactions and caramelization of the natural and added sugars and the denaturing of the protein, due to the fact that the fermentation byproducts of the one-day dough will be different in terms of quantity and form than those for the four-day dough. My recollection is that you were using around 0.55% IDY for the one-day dough and, if that is true, that would produce byproducts of fermentation that have a different flavor in the finished crust than if you used a lot less IDY. It's much like how emergency doughs with a lot of yeast and using high water temperatures will yield finished crusts that have a unique flavor profile. Some people might like that flavor profile but others may find the flavors to be "off" or too unusual.

As I mentioned previously with regard to the one-day and four-day doughs, I consider it useful to be able to make both such doughs just in case you arrive at market on some Monday and see that there was a power failure or something else that rendered your four-day dough unusable. Unless it was a power failure that was not restored, you would still have enough time to make the one-day dough.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 22, 2014, 02:35:19 PM
Norma,

When I suggested in Reply 488 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg316346#msg316346 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg316346#msg316346) that you might want to consider increasing the amount of dough a bit to allow for a larger rim, I was concerned that you might not like the finished texture of the rim. However, when you stretched the skin made from the second dough ball to less than the full 16.5", you in effect increased the thickness factor for that skin. And, as it so happened, you liked the results. So, sometime you might want to increase the thickness factor up front to allow for a bit more dough. For example, if you are currently using a thickness factor of 0.08, you might increase it to 0.09 to see if that does the trick.

As for sifting or not sifting the flour, the reason I suggested that you try sifting the flour was not only to better hydrate the flour but also to try to "squeeze" more water into the dough and thereby increase its hydration but without ending up with a final dough that was on the wet side or hard to handle. The hope was that the higher hydration would translate into increased oven spring and, hence, a larger rim, without having to increase the oven bake temperature. At some point, you might go back to using unsifted flour if one of the physical methods of increasing the size of the rim pans out.

Further to the matter of the one-day dough versus the four-day dough, there will be differences in the final crust flavor, apart from the Maillard reactions and caramelization of the natural and added sugars and the denaturing of the protein, due to the fact that the fermentation byproducts of the one-day dough will be different in terms of quantity and form than those for the four-day dough. My recollection is that you were using around 0.55% IDY for the one-day dough and, if that is true, that would produce byproducts of fermentation that have a different flavor in the finished crust than if you used a lot less IDY. It's much like how emergency doughs with a lot of yeast and using high water temperatures will yield finished crusts that have a unique flavor profile. Some people might like that flavor profile but others may find the flavors to be "off" or too unusual.

As I mentioned previously with regard to the one-day and four-day doughs, I consider it useful to be able to make both such doughs just in case you arrive at market on some Monday and see that there was a power failure or something else that rendered your four-day dough unusable. Unless it was a power failure that was not restored, you would still have enough time to make the one-day dough.

Peter

Peter,

For the next batch of dough I will increase the thickness factor to 0.09.

I think I knew the reason why you suggested that I try sifting the flour.  That seemed to work well. 

Thanks for explaining more about the matter of the one-day dough versus the four-day dough.  I was using 0.55% IDY but have decreased it. 

I agree it would be useful to be able to make a one-day dough and a four-day dough in case something happens with the power or the prep fridge.  Sometimes where the plug is to the prep fridge that receptacle trips and then the power goes out to the prep fridge.  That is the receptacle that is right next to my hand wash sink. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 23, 2014, 06:52:43 PM
To explain a little bit more about where the plug is for the prep fridge the first photo is where the prep fridge is plugged in, and why that receptacle can trip. 

Another experimental dough batch of dough was made today.  I really wasn't prepared enough to make this batch of dough.  I had forgot to put a water jug in the deli case on Tuesday night and I had sold out of all the water bottles at market for customers.  I didn't have any ice at market either, and forgot to pick some up.  I then put some water in the deli case while cleaning and stocking things.  The water was 50.1 degrees F when it was used to make this batch of dough, so the water was warmer than I wanted.  The method used for mixing was the same as last week, but the flour was not sifted.  The final dough temperature was 70.6 degrees F.  The ambient market temperature can be seen in the one photo.  The dough was not sticky.  One dough ball was put into a plastic container with poppy seeds on top of the dough ball.  The other 4 doughs balls were put into the DoughMate.  It can be seen with even a smaller dough box, like the DoughMate, there is not a lot of room in the prep fridge.  That is why I have to stack dough balls on top of one another after they cool.

I did not increase the TF for this batch of dough.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 26, 2014, 06:52:41 PM
I sure don't understand, but by looking at the poppy seed spacings today it doesn't look like the dough ball fermented much, if at all, in 3-days.  The 4 doughs balls in the DoughMate box flattened out.  I tried to put the DoughMate box on the left side of the deli case today, but that door will not open enough for the DoughMate box to fit in.  On the right bottom the one metal rail kept the DoughMate box from fitting on top of the cheese.  I put the DoughMate box on the bottom of the prep fridge and put a tray of dough balls in plastic bags on top of it.  I looked today and don't think I have any space to temper the dough balls in the DoughMate box.  Maybe on top of the flour bags. under the bench the dough balls will temper okay.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on May 26, 2014, 06:57:24 PM
Norma: Your dough box balls look right on schedule.  That is what I mean when I have told you they will bleed together on multi day ferments and not rise much upward.  I predict you will get the same results you have been getting with your bag/container dough balls of the same recipe.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 26, 2014, 07:47:57 PM
Norma: Your dough box balls look right on schedule.  That is what I mean when I have told you they will bleed together on multi day ferments and not rise much upward.  I predict you will get the same results you have been getting with your bag/container dough balls of the same recipe.  Walter

Walter,

Thanks for telling me that the dough box balls look right on schedule, and that is what you explained to me about the dough balls bleeding together on multi-day cold ferments.  I am wondering why the poppy seed spacings didn't move when my final dough temperature was higher last Friday than the other week.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Donjo911 on May 27, 2014, 01:54:06 PM
Norma,
Based on my test dough over the weekend - I'll take a stab at why the poppy seeds did not move.  In my dough & dough containers, it seems that the doughball does not stretch or grow equally from the top center out.  It seems that as the dough expands it flattens from the top and grows at the sides. It seemed counter intuitive to me too - but that's what I noticed as I had taken many pictures of doughballs throughtout cold & warm fermentation in this test and was looking specifically for changes related to how two different yeast types were effecting the balls.  Regardless of ADY or a sourdough - the top of the ball did not change it's appearance. However, the edges and bottom of the ball clearly did. 

Just my observation. Hope it helps.
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 27, 2014, 09:29:14 PM
Norma,
Based on my test dough over the weekend - I'll take a stab at why the poppy seeds did not move.  In my dough & dough containers, it seems that the doughball does not stretch or grow equally from the top center out.  It seems that as the dough expands it flattens from the top and grows at the sides. It seemed counter intuitive to me too - but that's what I noticed as I had taken many pictures of doughballs throughtout cold & warm fermentation in this test and was looking specifically for changes related to how two different yeast types were effecting the balls.  Regardless of ADY or a sourdough - the top of the ball did not change it's appearance. However, the edges and bottom of the ball clearly did. 

Just my observation. Hope it helps.

Donjo911,

Thanks for telling us your observations and explanations why the poppy seed spacings did not move.  Your results are very interesting.  My dough ball with the poppy seeds did ferment to double in size until today, right after it was taken out of the prep fridge.

Norma 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 27, 2014, 11:07:51 PM
Near the start of a day at market.  The second boardwalk style pizza baked that was made from a one-day cold fermented dough.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 28, 2014, 02:35:21 PM
These are the results for the 4-day cold fermented dough pizzas from yesterday.  I only used 3 of the dough balls out of 5 dough balls because I was not satisfied with the results yesterday. 

I also want to comment that I made a mistake in telling Don (Donjo911) in my other post that the dough ball with the poppy seed spacing did double in size until yesterday.  It did ferment some until yesterday, but did not double in volume when taken out of the prep fridge and also after tempering for about 2 hrs. at a warm room temperature.

The first pizza might look okay, but the middle of the crust was way too soggy.  The taste of the crust still isn't better than a one-day cold ferment with this recent experiment.  I am having a hard time understanding that.  The second and third pizzas did not get enough of rim browning, even though the bottom crust were a little lighter than the first pizza.  The dough balls were only opened on the one side and I tried to create a bigger rim crust.  All of the dough balls opened very easily.

The dough balls in the dough box were okay to take out.  I need more experience in that area though.

The last two dough balls I just reballed at the end of the evening because they had spread out so much.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 28, 2014, 02:38:46 PM
Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 28, 2014, 02:41:46 PM
Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 28, 2014, 02:44:48 PM
These are two photos of the bottom rim crust and one pizza made with the one-day cold fermented dough balls from yesterday.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 28, 2014, 02:51:28 PM
Norma,

From what you reported, it appears that you made three variable changes for the most recent dough batch: 1) you used unsifted flour, 2) the water temperature you used increased the finished dough temperature several degrees, and 3) you used the DoughMate box for four out of the five dough balls. If this is correct, you may want to go back to the dough formulation and related processing methods that gave you better results to see if those results can be repeated.

Also, did you mention how the single dough ball with the poppy seeds worked out?

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 28, 2014, 03:19:58 PM
Norma,

From what you reported, it appears that you made three variable changes for the most recent dough batch: 1) you used unsifted flour, 2) the water temperature you used increased the finished dough temperature several degrees, and 3) you used the DoughMate box for four out of the five dough balls. If this is correct, you may want to go back to the dough formulation and related processing methods that gave you better results to see if those results can be repeated.

Also, did you mention how the single dough ball with the poppy seeds worked out?

Peter

Peter,

You are correct that I made three variable changes for the most recent dough batch.  I will have to go back to the dough formulation and related processing methods that gave me better results and see if those results can be repeated.  I think where I am mainly going to have problems is getting the same final dough temperatures when the temperatures at market vary greatly.  To give an example is when the temperatures are in the 90's and when even using ice water I don't think I will be able to get lower final dough temperatures.  Usually I just use cold water at market for a one-day cold fermented dough and do lower the yeast amount when the temperatures are in the 90's. 

The single dough ball pizza were in the first set of pizza photos.  That pizza looked fine and the rim crust was moist, but the bottom middle crust was soggy.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Tampa on May 28, 2014, 03:23:09 PM
Near the start of a day at market.  The second boardwalk style pizza baked that was made from a one-day cold fermented dough.

Norma
Too Cute - that photo of you holding the pie!  Who could resist that sale.  Not me.
Dave
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 29, 2014, 08:29:34 AM
Norma,

As you can see from member Kirk's (kdefay's) post at Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=31619.msg317507#msg317507 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=31619.msg317507#msg317507), you aren't the only one to have to deal with temperature variations at the workplace and the challenges they pose. I'm sure you could each learn a lot from each other on how to manage in such situations.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 29, 2014, 09:13:09 AM
Norma,

As you can see from member Kirk's (kdefay's) post at Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=31619.msg317507#msg317507 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=31619.msg317507#msg317507), you aren't the only one to have to deal with temperature variations at the workplace and the challenges they pose. I'm sure you could each learn a lot from each other on how to manage in such situations.

Peter

Peter,

I read Kirk's reply this morning.  Thanks for the link to his post!  I am sure I could learn a lot from Kirk since he also has to deal with varying temperatures and the problems that go with them.  Since Kirk is doing a 2-day cold ferment at 61% hydration and still has some problems I don't think I ever will be able to master a 4-day cold ferment and not have problems with the dough or the final pizzas.  I sure would not be in the mood to sift flour for bigger batches of dough all the time, and if the final dough temperature has to be really low, that is something I don't think I can achieve consistently when it is warmer.  I don't know what I am going to try tomorrow. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: Pete-zza on May 29, 2014, 09:53:42 AM
Norma,

Last night and again this morning, I revisited the photos of your most recent dough balls. To my eye, they look like they were pretty far along the fermentation curve. If so, they may have been wetter than usual if the water in the dough was released form its bond, and that might have affected the bake and resulted in soft or underbaked centers. I know that Walter is able to work with dough balls at such a stage but he perhaps has the advantage in that his Blodgett ovens can deliver results that your oven cannot to the same degree. It is also possible that his refrigeration is more efficient than what you can achieve at market.

I agree with you that it would be nice to avoid having to sift the flour and to use rest periods and the like, especially if you were to go to a lot more dough balls than the five dough ball samples that you have been testing. As you know, these steps were implemented only to see if it they would solve the problem you were having with small rims. So, you might skip these tests but still strive to achieve a lower finished dough temperature. If that doesn't work, or if something is lost by making the changes, then you will have to decide which methods and dough fermentation period are best for you at market.

Peter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 29, 2014, 10:34:48 AM
Norma,

Last night and again this morning, I revisited the photos of your most recent dough balls. To my eye, they look like they were pretty far along the fermentation curve. If so, they may have been wetter than usual if the water in the dough was released form its bond, and that might have affected the bake and resulted in soft or underbaked centers. I know that Walter is able to work with dough balls at such a stage but he perhaps has the advantage in that his Blodgett ovens can deliver results that your oven cannot to the same degree. It is also possible that his refrigeration is more efficient than what you can achieve at market.

I agree with you that it would be nice to avoid having to sift the flour and to use rest periods and the like, especially if you were to go to a lot more dough balls than the five dough ball samples that you have been testing. As you know, these steps were implemented only to see if it they would solve the problem you were having with small rims. So, you might skip these tests but still strive to achieve a lower finished dough temperature. If that doesn't work, or if something is lost by making the changes, then you will have to decide which methods and dough fermentation period are best for you at market.

Peter

Peter,

What I don't understand about those dough balls, when making comparisons to the one with the poppy seed spacings, to the ones in the dough box is the dough ball with the poppy seeds didn't show it was overfermented.  In fact, it showed the dough ball didn't even double in size.  The ones in the dough box I did think showed they might have been pretty far along in the fermentation curve, but they were both in the same temperatures to cold ferment, and all of them were left to temper at about the same amounts of time at the same ambient room temperatures.  Now I am not too sure if I can depend on the results of the poppy seed spacings to see what happens with the experiments I am doing with a higher hydration dough than the flour calls for if no sifting is done.   

I know Walter has the advantage of a better oven and also has more experience with working with dough balls like the ones in the dough box were.

I do know the steps were implemented of sifting the flour, upping the hydration and using rest periods to help with oven spring.  I appreciate that you helped me with all of those things.

It is a lot cooler in area today and is supposed to be tomorrow too.  I don't think I will have any problems achieving a lower dough temperature tomorrow, but that always won't be the case.

I know in the end I will have to decide which methods and dough fermentation period are the best for me at market. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on May 29, 2014, 12:41:11 PM
Norma: Have you thought about this- put a bucket of water in the cooler a few days before making dough, bring some ice cubes with you on mix day,add it to the cold water, stir it really good, mix your dough with the  ice water, cut off a 1/3 or 1/4 of the dough at at time while the main lump is in the cooler staying cold. That way you could come in with a well under 70 degree dough in even hot conditions.  I had to do that before we moved in to our a/c's space 2 years ago.  When I worked in bakeries in Austin TX we had to operate like this with icing wedding cakes.  We would do a small part of the cake, put it in the walk in for a bit, and repeat till the cake was done.  We also used a bowl of ice under the bowl with the icing in it as we worked to keep it from turning to liquid and would return that to the walk in as well to firm up.  The temps were well over 100 degrees in the work area.  I wonder why your dough was soggy in the middle?  Did your sauce go on heavier or was it more watery than normal?  Yes my ovens are great for turning out great pies one after another.  If I had to give them up I might quit making pizzas :)  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 29, 2014, 06:36:05 PM
Norma: Have you thought about this- put a bucket of water in the cooler a few days before making dough, bring some ice cubes with you on mix day,add it to the cold water, stir it really good, mix your dough with the  ice water, cut off a 1/3 or 1/4 of the dough at at time while the main lump is in the cooler staying cold. That way you could come in with a well under 70 degree dough in even hot conditions.  I had to do that before we moved in to our a/c's space 2 years ago.  When I worked in bakeries in Austin TX we had to operate like this with icing wedding cakes.  We would do a small part of the cake, put it in the walk in for a bit, and repeat till the cake was done.  We also used a bowl of ice under the bowl with the icing in it as we worked to keep it from turning to liquid and would return that to the walk in as well to firm up.  The temps were well over 100 degrees in the work area.  I wonder why your dough was soggy in the middle?  Did your sauce go on heavier or was it more watery than normal?  Yes my ovens are great for turning out great pies one after another.  If I had to give them up I might quit making pizzas :)  Walter

Walter,

I do normally put jugs of water in the prep fridge before I make dough on days when is it hot, or a lot warmer.  I don't usually bring ice with me, but could do that.  I never thought of cutting off 1/3 or ¼ of the dough at a time while the main lump was in the cooler to stay cold.  Thanks for telling me that is about the way you did icing cakes when you worked in bakeries in Austin, TX.  I really don't know if I want to go to the extra bother of doing different things if the crusts are not tasting better. 
 
I have no idea why the crust was soggy in the middle.  The first pie was sauced and cheesed like they normally are.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on May 29, 2014, 07:47:39 PM
Norma:  If you really can't tell a difference in the 1 day or 4 day dough I would stick to what you have been doing.  There is no point in doing all that extra work for no noticable return.  One thing is for certain. If you are turning out a bunch of pizzas in a commercial setting they will vary quite a bit to the maker.   Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 29, 2014, 08:31:15 PM
Norma:  If you really can't tell a difference in the 1 day or 4 day dough I would stick to what you have been doing.  There is no point in doing all that extra work for no noticable return.  One thing is for certain. If you are turning out a bunch of pizzas in a commercial setting they will vary quite a bit to the maker.   Walter

Walter,

Thanks for your thoughts.  I wish I could say I could taste at least a noticeable difference between my 1-day and 4-day cold fermented dough pizzas.  That is still puzzling me.  I am not sure of what I want to do tomorrow.  Thanks for telling me that if a bunch of pizzas are made in a commercial setting they will vary quite a bit by the pizza maker. 

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on May 29, 2014, 09:13:09 PM
Walter,

Thanks for your thoughts.  I wish I could say I could taste at least a noticeable difference between my 1-day and 4-day cold fermented dough pizzas.  That is still puzzling me.  I am not sure of what I want to do tomorrow.  Thanks for telling me that if a bunch of pizzas are made in a commercial setting they will vary quite a bit by the pizza maker. 

Norma

Norma:  The only differences I can figure are the sugar you add and the oven differences.  The fridge differences are minimal I think judging by the way your dough balls look. Have you tried a 4 day dough without any sugar?  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 29, 2014, 09:58:05 PM
Norma:  The only differences I can figure are the sugar you add and the oven differences.  The fridge differences are minimal I think judging by the way your dough balls look. Have you tried a 4 day dough without any sugar?  Walter

Walter,

No, I have not tried no sugar in a 4-day dough.  All of my one-day doughs lately also have sugar added.  The main reason I added sugar awhile ago was to give more color to my bottom crusts and a little more color to the rim crusts.  I think our oven differences are the biggest difference, but am not exactly sure because we are using different oven temperatures too.  I know when I tried different formulations in my deck oven there seemed to be different problems in rim crust browning, bottom crust browning and a crisper bottom crust.  Some of my other experiments on other threads might have looked good but there was usually something missing in the taste of the crust, or the whole pizza.

The weird thing is I sure can taste when a sourdough NY style pizza is made, variations in other types of pizza crusts and even could taste the difference when I made that one pizza with sourdough and IDY with Peter's modifications at Reply 170 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg310352#msg310352 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30641.msg310352#msg310352)   

That is why I think I am so puzzled at why the 4-day cold fermented dough pizzas don't taste much, or any better than my 1-day cold fermented pizzas.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: kdefay on May 29, 2014, 11:01:37 PM
Peter,

I read Kirk's reply this morning.  Thanks for the link to his post!  I am sure I could learn a lot from Kirk since he also has to deal with varying temperatures and the problems that go with them.  Since Kirk is doing a 2-day cold ferment at 61% hydration and still has some problems I don't think I ever will be able to master a 4-day cold ferment and not have problems with the dough or the final pizzas.  I sure would not be in the mood to sift flour for bigger batches of dough all the time, and if the final dough temperature has to be really low, that is something I don't think I can achieve consistently when it is warmer.  I don't know what I am going to try tomorrow. 

Norma

I guess I'll jump into this one late...

Last night, with an air temp of about 85F, I made about 20lbs of dough with water that was 30.5F (salt allows it to go below freezing) when it went into the mixer.  At the end of mixing, the dough read a temp of 68F.  I let it sit until it hit about 72F and then I made my balls.  There are a few things that I think could be helpful to you on a 4-day cold ferment. 

Ice- I use cube ice because it’s what we have, but I think that using crushed ice would be a better option because its smaller size means that you can begin mixing before it has completely melted and it will finish melting during the process, thus keeping your dough colder.

Refrigerator – Be sure you have it set cold.  Mine has a target temp of 2C (35.5F).  This cools the dough balls down faster and ensures a slower ferment.

Yeast – My opinion is that your yeast should be no more than .3% (probably less) if you want to hit 4 days.  I’m just slightly over that and I won’t use dough balls after 3-days.  The characteristics of the crust on a 4-day dough are just not to the liking of my Asian customers.  They get turned into bread or thrown away if they make it to 4 days.

Balling – Cut off portions from the larger mass of dough for balling and keep the rest in the fridge until you need it so they can remain cold.   

Taking all of that into consideration…If you have a hard time telling the difference between a 1-day and a 4-day, why go the all the trouble and expense (refrigerator space costs money) if you don’t need to.  I went through this process early where I was trying to push farther and farther to make my crust better and I came to realize that my customers didn’t care and aren’t discerning enough to have really high standards.  I settled into a simple 2-day straight dough that is very consistent.  My customers are happy and so am I.

Kirk
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 29, 2014, 11:24:31 PM
I guess I'll jump into this one late...

Last night, with an air temp of about 85F, I made about 20lbs of dough with water that was 30.5F (salt allows it to go below freezing) when it went into the mixer.  At the end of mixing, the dough read a temp of 68F.  I let it sit until it hit about 72F and then I made my balls.  There are a few things that I think could be helpful to you on a 4-day cold ferment. 

Ice- I use cube ice because it’s what we have, but I think that using crushed ice would be a better option because its smaller size means that you can begin mixing before it has completely melted and it will finish melting during the process, thus keeping your dough colder.

Refrigerator – Be sure you have it set cold.  Mine has a target temp of 2C (35.5F).  This cools the dough balls down faster and ensures a slower ferment.

Yeast – My opinion is that your yeast should be no more than .3% (probably less) if you want to hit 4 days.  I’m just slightly over that and I won’t use dough balls after 3-days.  The characteristics of the crust on a 4-day dough are just not to the liking of my Asian customers.  They get turned into bread or thrown away if they make it to 4 days.

Balling – Cut off portions from the larger mass of dough for balling and keep the rest in the fridge until you need it so they can remain cold.   

Taking all of that into consideration…If you have a hard time telling the difference between a 1-day and a 4-day, why go the all the trouble and expense (refrigerator space costs money) if you don’t need to.  I went through this process early where I was trying to push farther and farther to make my crust better and I came to realize that my customers didn’t care and aren’t discerning enough to have really high standards.  I settled into a simple 2-day straight dough that is very consistent.  My customers are happy and so am I.

Kirk

Kirk,

Thanks for jumping in with your help!  Thanks also for telling me your final dough temperature when you made the 20 lbs. of dough with water that was 30.5 degrees F. 

Interesting that you think crushed ice would be a better option.  I would think ice cubes would be hard on the mixer. 

I have been using 0.16% IDY for the 4-day dough cold ferment experiments.  I am curious why your customers don't like the characteristics of the crust on a 4-day cold ferment.   

Thanks for the tip on balling.  That is what Walter told me to try too. 

I am having a hard time telling the differences between a 1-day and a 4-day cold fermented pizza.  The prep fridge is usually turned off during the week unless I am trying longer fermented dough balls.  I wish I could try a 2-day cold ferment, but since market is not accessible to me over the weekend a 2-day cold ferment is not possible for market.   

Thanks for telling us that you went through the process early where you were trying to push father and farther to make your crust better and you came to realize that your customers didn't care and weren't discerning enough to have really high standards.  I am glad to hear you and your customers are happy with your pizzas.

Norma
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: kdefay on May 30, 2014, 12:00:10 AM
I don't begin mixing until the cube ice is almost completely melted.  If there's a few big chunks, I turn on the mixer (spiral mixer) with only the ice water for a bit to break them up into smaller pieces before adding the flour. 

There's another method I use occasionally when we have needed to close for a few days that might be something you can try.  When we decide to take a few days off, I will make a normal batch of dough and let it cold ferment for one day and then freeze those balls.  When we return, I immediately take those balls out of the freezer, place them into dough boxes, and allow them to thaw at room temp.  When they are sufficiently thawed but not rising, I move them into the fridge to get one more day of cold fermentation.  This allows us to open for business the day after we return instead of two days later.   The pizzas are still very good using this method.  They may not be the prettiest balls i make because they tend to get placed where there is room in the freezer instead of nicely arranged.  This method also requires that you have enough room in your freezer to hold as many balls need.

As to why I don't use 4-day dough in my shop, Asians are not sophisticated bread connoisseurs.  Their bread tends to be very sweet, soft and spongy.  A 4-day dough has flavor and texture characteristics  that really push the boundaries for many of them.  Another thing I have found is that by the time my dough hits three and four days, the fermentation level is such that gas bubbles are more likely to develop when the pizza is baking.  For many of us, this can be desirable, but to Asians it is scary.  They think those black bubbles mean that you have burned their pizza. 
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: waltertore on May 30, 2014, 06:25:49 AM
Norma:  Since you have gone this far with the experiment why not try a ball or 2 without  sugar?  Sugar definetely has an effect on how dough develops.  I don't know the science but know it does.  If that shows no taste difference then you can close the door without any questions floating around and I want to taste your 1 day and 4 day doughes :)  It is obvious you can taste differences in different dough styles and it is really puzzling what you are getting with these experiments ??? Walter


kdefay: It is always interesting to hear how different cultures view a product.  Here in Central Ohio any darking of the crust beyond brown is also considered burnt.  I have given many a piece that has a bit of black shade to it and most say it tastes fine but still want a slice that is lighter in color.  I have lived in major food centers up till this point, and was raised in the NJ/NYC Italian culture via my mothers family from Italy.  I am perplexed most everyday here in Ohio with how people view food.  Walter
Title: Re: More flavour in dough
Post by: norma427 on May 30, 2014, 07:37:04 AM
I don't begin mixing until the cube ice is almost completely melted.  If there's a few big chunks, I turn on the mixer (spiral mixer) with only the ice water for a bit to break them up into smaller pieces before adding the flour. 

There's another method I use occasionally when we have needed to close for a few days that might be something you can try.  When we decide to take a few days off, I will make a normal batch of dough and let it cold ferment for one day and then freeze those balls.  When we return, I immediately take those balls out of the freezer, place them into dough boxes, and allow them to thaw at room temp.  When they are sufficiently thawed but not rising, I move them into the fridge to get one more day of cold fermentation.  This allows us to open for business the day after we return instead of two days later.   The pizzas are still very good using this method.  They may not be the prettiest balls i make because they tend to get placed where there is room in the freezer instead of nicely arranged.  This method also requires that you have enough room in your freezer to hold as many balls need.

As to why I don't use 4-day dough in my shop, Asians are not sophisticated bread connoisseurs.  Their bread tends to be very sweet, soft and spongy.  A 4-day dough has flavor and texture characteristics  that really push the boundaries for many of them.  Another thing I have found is that by the time my dough hits three and four days, the fermentation level is such that gas bubbles are more likely to develop when the pizza is baking.  For many of us, this can be desirable, but to Asians it is scary.  They think those black bubbles mean that you have burned their pizza.