Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => New York Style => Topic started by: hammettjr on March 25, 2018, 02:24:54 PM

Title: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 25, 2018, 02:24:54 PM
I've been reluctant to create a thread, but I was trying to decide whether my pie from last night should go in the Sauce thread, Melt thread or Mesh Screen thread and figured it'd be better here instead of cluttering up the threads that are dedicated to specific discussion topics.

The most recent phase of my NY pizza journey has primarily been documented in the "melt" thread linked below.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46482.msg489509#msg489509

I'm currently experimenting with my kitchen oven instead of the Blackstone, using what I've learned from making pan pizzas. Most of my New England Greek style pan pizzas are here:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=691.msg512223#msg512223

I'm also trying out a mesh screen that's used at a bunch of pizzerias in NY, mostly in Queens. Here's the Mesh thread:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=49415.0

Here goes!  :chef:

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 25, 2018, 02:25:39 PM
Here's my pie from last night. It was very tasty. I'm really liking the smooth sauce right now - it impacts the melt nicely.

My sauce was Cento SM, thoroughly blended (after I removed as much water from the tomatoes as I could).
Simmered with EVOO only for 25 minutes.
Then I put the hot sauce into a glass container and immediately added herbs and romano into the hot sauce.
I applied more herbs and romano on top of the sauce when dressing the pie.

I majorly undercooked the dough, but I much prefer undercooked than overcooked. I dropped the water down from 55% to 52% (with about 1.75% oil). I think this is promising, but its hard to judge based on the undercooking.

480 degree oven, ~515 stone, 8:00 all on the mesh screen.
14", 3/4 cup sauce, 9oz WM Mozz. TF = 0.0975.


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on March 25, 2018, 02:46:01 PM
So glad to finally see this thread! That's a nice looking melt! The undercrust kind of looks like a fried cheese stick! I've had MUCH more undercooked crusts in my screen trials, if that's what you're calling undercooked these mesh screens look very promising.

Did the cheese have that stretch?

I like the technique adding the herbs and cheese to the hot sauce right off the burner, I sometimes do that one too!

Can't wait to see more from you here Matt! Thanks for sharing  :D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 25, 2018, 02:58:04 PM
Thanks Ryan! I was very happy with melt. The cheese had some stretch, not alot though.

It's amazing how thin this pie came out (despite the TF of 0.0975). It was almost as if the dough didn't cook.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on March 25, 2018, 04:18:36 PM
beautiful melt matt!!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on March 25, 2018, 04:42:07 PM
It was almost as if the dough didn't cook.

Did the slices eat proper, or did they feel dense?

BTW sometimes when I get a pie I feel is undercooked on the bottom, I let it cool for a few minutes and reheat in slices or quarters on the stone as a lot of my tasters like a crispy pie.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 25, 2018, 04:49:33 PM
Did the slices eat proper, or did they feel dense?

BTW sometimes when I get a pie I feel is undercooked on the bottom, I let it cool for a few minutes and reheat in slices or quarters on the stone as a lot of my tasters like a crispy pie.

A little gummy. I'm wondering whether my sauce was still warm when I applied it. I was very slow in topping it too.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on March 25, 2018, 05:39:25 PM
A little gummy. I'm wondering whether my sauce was still warm when I applied it. I was very slow in topping it too.

Did you open the dough with oil? It looked like you did, that should give you a barrier of protection from the slow topping since they've shown racks of pre-stacked and dressed skins - maybe it was the sauce temperature?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 25, 2018, 06:29:27 PM
Did you open the dough with oil? It looked like you did, that should give you a barrier of protection from the slow topping since they've shown racks of pre-stacked and dressed skins - maybe it was the sauce temperature?

Yep, with oil. It probably was the sauce temp. I was actually thinking of the racks of pre-topped pies as I was slowly topping mine.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on April 07, 2018, 08:11:50 PM
I love pizza  :chef:  The flavors of this pie were just as I like (thin sauce, a ton of herbs and hard cheese). Now I just need to figure out how to make a decent NY crust.

I tried 52% hydration again. I don't think it will work with my setup. It ended up ultra-thin and loaded with bubbles. Most likely will try 55% again next week.

10:00 at 460, with a 520 stone. First 9:00 on mesh, last minute on stone. The melt and undercrust was promising (though I had a super pale rim).

Oregano, basil, romano in sauce. Oregano, basil, romano, reggiano on top of sauce...thin sauce using Cento SM, removed as much water as possible from the tomatoes then blended with the puree. Did not cook it, and it worked beautifully.

Note: picture color is perfect on my laptop, orange on my phone.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on April 07, 2018, 09:50:27 PM
I love pizza  :chef:  The flavors of this pie were just as I like (thin sauce, a ton of herbs and hard cheese). Now I just need to figure out how to make a decent NY crust.

I tried 52% hydration again. I don't think it will work with my setup. It ended up ultra-thin and loaded with bubbles. Most likely will try 55% again next week.

10:00 at 460, with a 520 stone. First 9:00 on mesh, last minute on stone. The melt and undercrust was promising (though I had a super pale rim).

Oregano, basil, romano in sauce. Oregano, basil, romano, reggiano on top of sauce...thin sauce using Cento SM, removed as much water as possible from the tomatoes then blended with the puree. Did not cook it, and it worked beautifully.

Note: picture color is perfect on my laptop, orange on my phone.

Love that undercrust, awesome slice Matt! It's challenging to get that even, golden brown flavor town undercrust, I've been dropping temps too and finding my bake times are still very similar at 450-550 when doing a stone bake, but the rest of the pie can turn out very different.

I like a herb forward sauce, any idea of the quantities you are using per 28 oz can?   Cows milk romano or pecorino?

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on April 07, 2018, 09:50:47 PM
matt, looks wonderful, what didn't you like about the crust?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on April 08, 2018, 09:42:36 AM
...
I like a herb forward sauce, any idea of the quantities you are using per 28 oz can?   Cows milk romano or pecorino?

Thanks Ryan. I worked hard to remove the water from the tomatoes, and used some, but not all of the puree from the 28oz can.

The result was 1.5 cups of tomato, and I added:
EVOO 2 tsp
Salt 1/16 tsp
Garlic 1/16+1/32
Pepper 1/16
Sugar 1/4+1/8
Sicilian Oregano 1/2+1/8
Dried basil 1/4
Boars Head Pecorino Romano 2 tsp (powdered from box grater)

I topped the 14.5" pizza with 3/4 cup sauce (should have been half the total described above) and added on top of the sauce:
Sicilian Oregano less than 1/2 tsp
Dried basil less than 1/4 tsp
BH romano 1.5 tsp
BH reggiano 3/4 tsp on half the pie only

Pre mozz pic below. I put a bunch of oregano on one spot of the rim to incidate which half if the pie had the parm. There was enough going on with this pie that I didnt really taste a difference.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on April 08, 2018, 10:14:46 AM
matt, looks wonderful, what didn't you like about the crust?

Thanks QD. I can see my post was a bit confusing/misleading as I posted the best looking pictures of the pizza. The first pic below highlights the problem. There were loads of bubbles, so much that the pizza was almost one giant bubble. With the result being a paper thin crisp layer, then some air and a second paper thin more normal layer (you can see the 2 layers in the picture). The dough (despite being out for almost 2 hours) was still cool when I opened it, which could have contributed to the issue. In occasional spots where I didn't have this separation, I had a bigger gum line than I'd prefer. I'm thinking the low temp bake with low hydration could be an issue there. Though it's possible I just need to let the dough warm up more. If I do try 52% again, I'll increase the dough weight further. (Already at TF of 0.0975, but the result is super thin.)

First pic is my giant bubble. Second 2 pics are from a local pizzeria, and is closer to what I'm trying for.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on April 08, 2018, 03:23:53 PM
Today I went again to my local pizzeria that uses mesh screens, and had another good conversation with the manager. Key takeaways:

1. They use Grande East Coast Blend (pre-shredded blend of 50/50 whole milk and part-skim). He said that this works best for them as the pre-shredded cheese has less moisture. They have a typical (good looking) NY melt.

2. They sometimes finish the pies directly on the deck, depending on the temperature.

3. He offered to season my screen for me.

Earlier this week I actually asked my wife to get some of the 50/50 cheese blend, but she ended up not getting to the store. But I'm low on whole milk and will be experimenting with a blend next weekend anyway. I found from my Greek pan pizzas that with a blend I could get enough grease and flavor from the whole milk, but the part-skim helped keep it from being too oily and may have given it some texture.
 
Pizzeria pics below. Reheated slice with more crisp than my preference. Very nice hard cheese flavor. But it was overall salty for my tastes (though I generally eat low sodium).

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on April 08, 2018, 03:44:03 PM
That's a well stretched skin!

The Polly-O shreds I've been using are much lower in moisture than their 1 lb retail block mozz.

Are they using a blend of hard cheeses, or straight romano, or parm?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on April 08, 2018, 03:56:31 PM
I use Grande whole milk pre-shredded at my shop
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on April 08, 2018, 04:08:40 PM
...
Are they using a blend of hard cheeses, or straight romano, or parm?

Good question...They use the distributor that I go to. The flavor I tasted today seemed exactly like the reggiano that I've bought there. It really tastes different than other cheeses I've bought. BUT, when I spoke to the manager last time he was adamant that reggiano had "too mild" a flavor and was too expensive for a pizzeria to use. He said they use romano. He was very open with me (giving me the phone number of the mesh screen maker) and I assume that he was giving me good info on the romano. But that reggiano I bought has the NY pizzeria flavor I was searching for. Next time I'm at the distributor I'll ask who makes it.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on April 08, 2018, 04:10:33 PM
I use Grande whole milk pre-shredded at my shop

Interesting, did you try shedding blocks yourself? If you did, was there a difference in moisture when it melted?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: HarryHaller73 on April 08, 2018, 05:11:05 PM
That's a well stretched skin!

The Polly-O shreds I've been using are much lower in moisture than their 1 lb retail block mozz.

Are they using a blend of hard cheeses, or straight romano, or parm?

Do they add anything in the Polly-O shreds?  Sometimes cheese brands will add cellulose powder to avoid caking.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on April 08, 2018, 06:31:00 PM
Do they add anything in the Polly-O shreds?  Sometimes cheese brands will add cellulose powder to avoid caking.

The Polly-O does, yeah, isn't Grande the only pre-shredded without it?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on April 08, 2018, 07:17:29 PM
The Polly-O does, yeah, isn't Grande the only pre-shredded without it?

It's hard to prove that it's the only, but yeah, it doesnt have anything added.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: HarryHaller73 on April 08, 2018, 09:55:50 PM
The Polly-O does, yeah, isn't Grande the only pre-shredded without it?

Not sure if they're the only ones.  Grande uses a special packing method for shredded cheese by pumping some sort of gas or air inside so the bag is inflated when you buy it.  This somehow prevents sticking.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on April 10, 2018, 06:48:01 PM
Interesting, did you try shedding blocks yourself? If you did, was there a difference in moisture when it melted?

I have a spiral mixer, so there is no attachment for a pelican head shredder. Me using pre-shredded is out of necessity, but I did have a lengthy talk with my Grande rep about my concerns about off the block vs. pre-shredded, and he basically said that Grande spent literally millions on a mega cheese shredder that is like beyond anything known in the pizza world, and that because they dont use caking agents and fill the bags with gas, the difference between the block and shredded is negligible, if at all. I'm not sure about moisture levels, but can attest that even pre-shredded Grande is a clumpy, oily, butterfat mess in the best way possible. The cheese is incredibly pure. He said they use 80lbs of milk to get 8lbs of cheese, and are one of few companies who doesnt touch the butterfat. A lot of companies remove portions of it and sell it. Grande does not.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on April 10, 2018, 06:50:41 PM
Not sure if they're the only ones.  Grande uses a special packing method for shredded cheese by pumping some sort of gas or air inside so the bag is inflated when you buy it.  This somehow prevents sticking.

They do a pretty good job with that, but it definitely still clumps and sticks, and im ok with it. I know I'm getting a pure product that way.

In fact, via my Grande rep himself, Grande is working on a new, low-moisture, fresh mozzarella, but they are having problems with it cause its too yellow, and most low-moisture fresh mozz is pure white, due to additives, etc. Was supposed to be on the market first quarter of 2018, but that time has come and gone. Im told Im first on the list in Pittsburgh to be notified when its done.  ;D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Essen1 on April 10, 2018, 07:32:36 PM
Not sure if they're the only ones.  Grande uses a special packing method for shredded cheese by pumping some sort of gas or air inside so the bag is inflated when you buy it.  This somehow prevents sticking.

Grande fills its bags with nitrogen gas to prevent clumping. And yes, they are the only ones, as far as I'm aware of, that use this technique. The bags also contain less than 2% oxygen to prevent spoilage, even though the FDA requires less than 5%.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on April 21, 2018, 08:15:57 PM
I'm getting close! I made 7 changes versus last bake, and almost all of them worked  :chef:

1. 50/50 whole milk/part skim mozz (vs my usual 100% wm)
2. lowered my stone 1 rack, away from the upper heating element (and towards the bottom element)
3. went back up to 480 oven
4. went back up to 55% water
5. took my dough out earlier again (2.5 hours before bake)
6. first time using my new mesh screen after it was seasoned by a pizzeria
7. tried Bianco DiNapoli whole peeled

8:30 bake at 480, 7 minutes on the mesh screen, stone temp 515.

The melt was really nice. It had grease, but also some white, and the cheese stretched. I attribute this to a combination of adding part-skim and lowering the stone in the oven.

The dough/undercrust was a huge improvement. I liked the 55% hydration, the seasoned screen worked well, and likely the lower stone placement was big here too.

It didn't quite hit the mark flavor-wise, but I'm nitpicking. The sauce was just ok. And probably not enough hard cheese. I really miss the parm I was getting at the pizzeria distributor. The Bianco tomatoes were pretty good, but I like Cento Certified better. I think the salt in the tomatoes led the pizza to be too salty.

Next time I plan to do everything the same, but mess with the sauce a bit.


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on April 22, 2018, 09:33:29 AM
Looks Great -  :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on April 22, 2018, 11:28:05 AM
Grande fills its bags with nitrogen gas to prevent clumping. And yes, they are the only ones, as far as I'm aware of, that use this technique. The bags also contain less than 2% oxygen to prevent spoilage, even though the FDA requires less than 5%.

I used to make THC capsules.  It was in a sesame oil substrate and very susceptible to oxidation.  I had to retrofit the encapsulator from an air to mechanical ejection.  Positive pressure with nitrogen throughout the whole process.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: deb415611 on April 22, 2018, 02:55:25 PM
I'm getting close! I made 7 changes versus last bake, and almost all of them worked  :chef:

1. 50/50 whole milk/part skim mozz (vs my usual 100% wm)
2. lowered my stone 1 rack, away from the upper heating element (and towards the bottom element)
3. went back up to 480 oven
4. went back up to 55% water
5. took my dough out earlier again (2.5 hours before bake)
6. first time using my new mesh screen after it was seasoned by a pizzeria
7. tried Bianco DiNapoli whole peeled

8:30 bake at 480, 7 minutes on the mesh screen, stone temp 515.

The melt was really nice. It had grease, but also some white, and the cheese stretched. I attribute this to a combination of adding part-skim and lowering the stone in the oven.

The dough/undercrust was a huge improvement. I liked the 55% hydration, the seasoned screen worked well, and likely the lower stone placement was big here too.

It didn't quite hit the mark flavor-wise, but I'm nitpicking. The sauce was just ok. And probably not enough hard cheese. I really miss the parm I was getting at the pizzeria distributor. The Bianco tomatoes were pretty good, but I like Cento Certified better. I think the salt in the tomatoes led the pizza to be too salty.

Next time I plan to do everything the same, but mess with the sauce a bit.

very nice
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jvp123 on April 22, 2018, 03:02:32 PM
Wow Matt, you are dialed in on that!  :chef:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on April 22, 2018, 03:45:03 PM
Textbook golden brown delicious undercrust right there. Nice pie Matt!

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on April 28, 2018, 09:17:20 PM
Same dough as last time, still a WM/PS blend, increased the oven temp to 500, 7:30 bake with 6:00 on the mesh.
Maybe could've done a little less on the stone, maybe a little less herbs.
Still need to improve my sauce overall, will go back to mixing different blends (7/11, Cento, Bonta).

But this pie was solid


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jvp123 on April 28, 2018, 09:21:32 PM
Same dough as last time, still a WM/PS blend, increased the oven temp to 500, 7:30 bake with 6:00 on the mesh.
Maybe could've done a little less on the stone, maybe a little less herbs.
Still need to improve my sauce overall, will go back to mixing different blends (7/11, Cento, Bonta).

But this pie was solid

NYC in the house!  :chef:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on April 29, 2018, 08:43:17 AM
NYC in the house!  :chef:
^^^
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: GumbaWill on April 29, 2018, 08:57:56 AM
It's hard to prove that it's the only, but yeah, it doesnt have anything added.

Same dough as last time, still a WM/PS blend, increased the oven temp to 500, 7:30 bake with 6:00 on the mesh.
Maybe could've done a little less on the stone, maybe a little less herbs.
Still need to improve my sauce overall, will go back to mixing different blends (7/11, Cento, Bonta).

But this pie was solid
That is one really nice looking N.Y. style pie! What TF are you using, if you don't mind me asking.
 Is there any place a home baker in N.Y.C.  can buy Grande Mozzarella? My current choice is Garbani blocks.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on April 29, 2018, 12:06:55 PM
Same dough as last time, still a WM/PS blend, increased the oven temp to 500, 7:30 bake with 6:00 on the mesh.
Maybe could've done a little less on the stone, maybe a little less herbs.
Still need to improve my sauce overall, will go back to mixing different blends (7/11, Cento, Bonta).

But this pie was solid

You could open a shop in Flushing right now  ;D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 29, 2018, 01:11:56 PM
Very nice!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on April 29, 2018, 02:03:40 PM
Thanks all!

GumbaWill, my TF is currently 0.0975, which sounds high, but with only 55% water and 1.8% oil plus a heavy-handed dough opening, I get a fairly thin and chewy result. Note though that this last pie was stretched a little larger than intended.

I'll send you a PM regarding pizzeria supplies in the NYC area.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: GumbaWill on April 29, 2018, 02:10:16 PM
Thanks all!

GumbaWill, my TF is currently 0.0975, which sounds high, but with only 55% water and 1.8% oil plus a heavy-handed dough opening, I get a fairly thin and chewy result. Note though that this last pie was stretched a little larger than intended.

I'll send you a PM regarding pizzeria supplies in the NYC area.
Thanks! Your thickness, looks about perfect for what I like. I went up today from .08 / .085 to .09. We will see how that goes. Your pie looks exactly like what I am shooting for!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on April 29, 2018, 09:50:00 PM
Very nice pizza Matt  :chef:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on May 07, 2018, 11:41:46 AM
This pie was only so-so, I think because of a combination of thicker/lack of sauce and too much dough.

Changes from last time:
    Sauce was 50% fully blended Cento SM, 50% 7/11 as is (compared to last few bakes with just the ultra-thin blended tomato). 3/4 cup still applied to pizza

    Used east coast blend rather than mixing the WM and PS myself

    Dough still TF of 0.0975, again I focused on edge stretching, and this time only slightly over-stretched to ~14.25''

    No herbs on top of the sauce, but I did increase the amount in the sauce a bit.

    No romano on top of sauce (but put a bit more in the sauce). No oil in the sauce either.

    Added 2.75tsp of fresh parm-regg on top of sauce, which I was excited to finally use again, but it wasn't enough to taste.

    Lowered oven temp to 490 from 500. Still 7:30 bake, but a bit less on the stone, and I missed the extra stone time.

Next time I may: add more sauce and/or use only 25% 7/11 or blend half the 7/11, lower the TF, add more parm


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on May 20, 2018, 08:01:42 PM
One more note to self about the pizza above, my cheese was a bit colder than usual. I want to experiment more with cold cheese and see how it impacts the melt.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on May 20, 2018, 08:28:29 PM
I didn't bake this week (went out to celebrate our 10th wedding anniversary), but I wanted to post more details about my bake last weekend.

It was an unusual bake as I made a Greek pan pizza and a NY white pizza for Mother's Day weekend. Given my previous Greek pies were using a lot of oil in the dough, I decided to compromise and meet in the middle. Plus, I baked the Greek pie first and put the NY in immediately after, with a cooler stone.

Changes/unusual aspects:
55% water and 2.75% oil
TF lowered to 0.095, but I probably stretched it an extra inch, which implies 0.0825.
Stone temp was only 400, so I used oven temp of 460.
I got distracted a bit, and bake was just a bit long (more cheese browning than I want for this pie) at 10 minutes. Half was directly on the stone given the low temp.
I flattened the rim more than usual, and it was good.

The crust actually came out really good. I need to lower my TF. I may experiment with more oil again. I liked the edge stretch again, it was a pretty even slice. (The undercrust was rather good, but I don't think I'd regularly drop the stone temp down this far.) As far as the white flavor goes, I don't measure anything, and I seem to alternate between under and overtopping. This one could've used a bit more garlic and oil, still good though.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jvp123 on May 20, 2018, 08:33:39 PM
Nice NY pies, Matt!  :chef:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: yangjingbang on May 23, 2018, 06:22:30 AM
Yes, those look great, especially the white!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on May 23, 2018, 09:06:14 AM
 ^^^ :drool:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on May 28, 2018, 02:31:52 PM
This pie was pretty good. I was starting to think that I was converting to liking my pizza hot, but this bake put a stop to that. As it cooled somewhat I really began to taste the tomato and the hard cheeses, it was so much better. Whenever I take a picture of a direct view of a half eaten slice, it means I'm really liking the flavor.

Changes made:
TF reduced to 0.0875. Stretched inconsistently, but it seemed a bit thin. Note that most of the crust was a lot thinner than it looks in the slice picture, where the thickness of the cheese makes the slice look thicker.

More sauce. Went again with the 50/50 blended Cento SM and unblended 7/11. Applied 3/4 cup plus 4-5 extra little amounts as I spread it on the skin. I also stretched the dough to a near perfect 14'', instead of overstretching, which resulted in more sauce per bite. This was a nice improvement. Still not sold on the chunkiness of 7/11. It has a nice flavor but changes the pie (versus a fully blended thin whole peeled tomato).

More herbs in sauce. Oregano increased to a bit less than 1.5 tsp for the 1.5 cups of sauce I made, and I also used a half cube of Dorot fresh/frozen basil from Trader Joes. With the increased sauce amount, I need to reduce the oregano a good bit. I couldn't taste the basil, but I'm optimistic on this product.

4 tsp romano in the sauce, none on top. 3 tsp parm on top of sauce and 1 tsp on top of the cheese. Still not sure where I want this.

Pre-shredded mozz was taken out of fridge just before opening dough, so it was somewhat cool.

490 degrees for 7:30, last minute direct on stone. 9+1/8 oz of 50/50 mozz.

Potential changes next time:
Raise the TF
Less oregano
More basil?
Experiment with romano and parm amounts and placement
Increase temp to 500

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jvp123 on May 28, 2018, 02:42:22 PM
Looks spot on to me, Matt.  You are dialed in on NY pizza.  :chef:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Little bean on May 28, 2018, 03:06:22 PM
Wow nice pizza.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: HansB on May 28, 2018, 04:44:14 PM
Looks spot on to me, Matt.  You are dialed in on NY pizza.  :chef:

^^^
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on May 28, 2018, 10:24:43 PM
^^^


 ^^^


I like your heavy hand with the sauce and cheese.  I like a good amount of basil as well as black pepper.  I've been omitting anchovy because it seemed to be muddying the sauce.  I've been liking stick blended 7/11 lately.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on May 29, 2018, 11:29:17 AM
Matt,

  Great bake, time to open your own pizza restaurant! do you put flour on your screen before baking? and have you been moving the pie to a stone or is the entire bake on the screen?

thanks,
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on May 29, 2018, 06:49:45 PM
Matt,

  Great bake, time to open your own pizza restaurant! do you put flour on your screen before baking? and have you been moving the pie to a stone or is the entire bake on the screen?

thanks,

Thanks QD. No flour on screen, and no flour when opening the dough. I'm currently opening in oil only. The pizzeria manager I spoke to said the reason they use the screen is to enable them to use oil instead of flour.

Bake time is currently 6:30 on the mesh screen plus another 1:00 directly on the stone.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on May 29, 2018, 09:02:56 PM

 ^^^


I like your heavy hand with the sauce and cheese.  I like a good amount of basil as well as black pepper.  I've been omitting anchovy because it seemed to be muddying the sauce.  I've been liking stick blended 7/11 lately.

Thanks. I'm headed towards blending the 7/11 again. I seem to be going in circles.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on May 29, 2018, 09:32:42 PM
Thanks. I'm headed towards blending the 7/11 again. I seem to be going in circles.

I don't go in circles. More like the random pattern of a squirrel trying to get out of the way of an approaching car.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 03, 2018, 08:07:46 PM
This pie was awesome. Sauce flavor and sauce consistency makes a huge difference. Still not happy with my crust thinness though.

I increased the oven temp to 500 (from 490). Will stick here.

I've also been applying the cheese cool.

This time I put the 7/11 in the blender, along with Cento San Marzano, half each. The result is not as thin as Cento only because the 7/11 doesn't totally break down, but it seemed to be thin enough, while adding a more robust tomato flavor.

I reduced the amount of oregano significantly, while increasing basil and sugar. I did my usual large amount of romano in the sauce and parm on top of it. I really liked the sauce and overall flavor of the pie.

I increased the TF up to 0.09. It wasn't a perfectly consistent stretch, but its still thin compared to an average NY slice. (I actually had a slice today from a shop I hadn't tried before, and again it was much thicker than mine. Not only thicker, but heavier. I need to experiment with dough younger than 2 days...but 2 days fits my schedule really well.)

A couple months back I reduced my salt from 1.75% to 1.5% to reduce the sodium. I may need to try going back to 1.75%.

Next time:
Identical sauce? Maybe experiment with more sugar.
Increase the TF
Take the dough out to warm up a little later
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: deb415611 on June 04, 2018, 07:05:52 AM
very nice!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Little bean on June 04, 2018, 07:46:13 PM
 ^^^
very nice!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on June 07, 2018, 12:49:42 PM
This pie was awesome. Sauce flavor and sauce consistency makes a huge difference. Still not happy with my crust thinness though.

I increased the oven temp to 500 (from 490). Will stick here.

I've also been applying the cheese cool.

This time I put the 7/11 in the blender, along with Cento San Marzano, half each. The result is not as thin as Cento only because the 7/11 doesn't totally break down, but it seemed to be thin enough, while adding a more robust tomato flavor.

I reduced the amount of oregano significantly, while increasing basil and sugar. I did my usual large amount of romano in the sauce and parm on top of it. I really liked the sauce and overall flavor of the pie.

I increased the TF up to 0.09. It wasn't a perfectly consistent stretch, but its still thin compared to an average NY slice. (I actually had a slice today from a shop I hadn't tried before, and again it was much thicker than mine. Not only thicker, but heavier. I need to experiment with dough younger than 2 days...but 2 days fits my schedule really well.)

A couple months back I reduced my salt from 1.75% to 1.5% to reduce the sodium. I may need to try going back to 1.75%.

Next time:
Identical sauce? Maybe experiment with more sugar.
Increase the TF
Take the dough out to warm up a little later

Loving that melt and undercrust Matt! Your NY style is looking great these days and your dedication clearly shows in the finished product  :)
I'm also pleased to hear I'm not the only one on the board STILL endlessly tinkering with my pizza sauce  :-D  :D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on June 07, 2018, 02:49:52 PM
beautiful pie matt! the ratios/melt looks perfect.  what was the size of the pie, how much cheese and sauce?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 07, 2018, 06:26:24 PM
Loving that melt and undercrust Matt! Your NY style is looking great these days and your dedication clearly shows in the finished product  :)
I'm also pleased to hear I'm not the only one on the board STILL endlessly tinkering with my pizza sauce  :-D  :D

Thanks Ryan, glad to see you back...look forward to seeing your latest experiments  :chef:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 07, 2018, 06:33:14 PM
beautiful pie matt! the ratios/melt looks perfect.  what was the size of the pie, how much cheese and sauce?

Thanks QD. The pie was basically 14", maybe as big as 14.25". Topped with a little more than 3/4 cup of sauce (probably 1/2-3/4 tbs more) and 9oz of cool shredded mozz.

I thought the sauce and cheese amounts were really good. Just needed a little thicker crust, particularly in the center. Its hard to judge from the pics though, looking at them now the pie appears thicker than it actually was.

Keep in mind that a thicker sauce could require more to get the right coverage.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 09, 2018, 08:55:26 PM
Pretty good pie. Some changes from last time, but overall it was pretty similar.

Changes:

Increased sugar in the sauce a little bit again. - was good

All hard cheese was on top of the sauce, not in. - will comment below

Dough was 1-day CF - was good. Crumb was tight and my jaw was starting to get tired given the chew.

Increased salt to 1.73% - good, will do again.

TF increased to 0.0925 - good, will do again.

I put the oil in way late, after the ball was formed, not sure if it fully incorporated. Maybe that contributed to the chew.

For next time:
This may have had a bit too much sauce, or maybe needs more cheese.
I'm wondering about my use of Romano and Reggiano, thinking I may be better off only using one of them.
Top faster, reduce gum lime.
I'm starting to think about trying a bake longer than 7:30 again.


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 12, 2018, 09:07:32 PM
The thread below links to a great video showing many slices across the city, with many shots pre-bake that reflect sauce thinness and cheese amount.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=52968.0

Peter commented that he hadn't seen a NY pizzeria dock its dough before, which I hadn't either.

Of course a couple days later I was in my local (mesh screen using) pizzeria and I recorded them using a docker - turned out it was only used on a white pie (no sauce). The manager I'm friendly with wasnt there, will ask him about it the next time I see him. I learned that my waitress was his niece, it's more of a family operation than I thought.
Link to the NYC slice tour video, then my screenshot of local dock usage below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X26m-uvaiKg
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on June 14, 2018, 03:03:55 PM
Nice slices Matt!

I'm easing back into more sugar in my sauce too, I know it's mildly taboo but it seems like that's where a lot of the flavor pop comes from. With bitter components like oregano and olive oil it seems to help give it that nudge.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on June 14, 2018, 05:53:21 PM
Nice slices Matt!

I'm easing back into more sugar in my sauce too, I know it's mildly taboo but it seems like that's where a lot of the flavor pop comes from. With bitter components like oregano and olive oil it seems to help give it that nudge.

Forget about "rules" and do what tastes good.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Jackitup on June 14, 2018, 06:23:47 PM
Forget about "rules" and do what tastes good.

I agree, do what tastes right to you and who you cook for! I like cheese and sea food and I could give a crap what ANYONE thinks about it......YUM!!!!!!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 14, 2018, 06:25:59 PM
Nice slices Matt!

I'm easing back into more sugar in my sauce too, I know it's mildly taboo but it seems like that's where a lot of the flavor pop comes from. With bitter components like oregano and olive oil it seems to help give it that nudge.

Yep. Think about how much sugar and salt is in prepared food. It'd be so easy for a pizzeria to dump both in, I don't see why they wouldn't.


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on June 17, 2018, 01:26:34 AM
I agree, do what tastes right to you and who you cook for! I like cheese and sea food and I could give a crap what ANYONE thinks about it......YUM!!!!!!

Tuna melts and lobster mac and cheese.  WTF?  Who can argue with that?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Little bean on June 17, 2018, 07:15:58 AM
Hey Matt, do you have any information on where that pizzeria gets those tins the dough is stored in, I知 having trouble sourcing good ones that don稚 let air in.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: HansB on June 17, 2018, 08:28:27 AM
Hey Matt, do you have any information on where that pizzeria gets those tins the dough is stored in, I知 having trouble sourcing good ones that don稚 let air in.

I bought some here: https://www.katom.com/cat/pizza-dough-proofing-pans.html

I don't think any are absolutely air tight but my dough does not dry out using them.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Little bean on June 17, 2018, 11:29:32 AM
I bought some here: https://www.katom.com/cat/pizza-dough-proofing-pans.html

I don't think any are absolutely air tight but my dough does not dry out using them.

Thank you Hans, I already bought some of those for sample and I wasn稚 a big fan, I知 looking for a commercial operation, and in my experience with those there is a 50 percent success rate with them locking tight.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 17, 2018, 05:00:03 PM
Hey Matt, do you have any information on where that pizzeria gets those tins the dough is stored in, I知 having trouble sourcing good ones that don稚 let air in.

Not sure. There are a couple availble through Bari

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 17, 2018, 08:41:42 PM
Potential game-changing progress this weekend! I've been thinking (yet again) that putting my tomatoes through a blender is probably not a good idea. But I've been hesitant to buy a food mill, and for whatever reason, I guess I thought that was my only alternative. On another thread Quietdesperation said he pushed his tomatoes through a strainer, and Invertedisdead seconded that. Seemed easy enough to give a shot, and the results were terrific.

I pushed 7/11 through the strainer, and the result had the same look and thinness of the pizzeria sauces I've purchased. It was awesome. (See pic.)

Then I pushed just the tomatoes from a can of Cento San Marzano through, and the result was almost pure water. Next I tried the puree that was in the can of Cento. It looked fine, but the taste was horrible by comparison to the 7/11. It tasted like water with a bitter tin flavor.

Last I decided it was time to crack open a small retail-size jar of Tomato Magic. Tasted so good out of the jar. The result after pushing it through the strainer was notably thicker and darker in color compared to the 7/11. It tasted very similar to the 7/11, maybe a little richer, but I liked them both equally. (Note that the 7/11 was previously frozen while the Tomato Magic was fresh.)

I decided to mix the 7/11 and Tomato Magic for my sauce. I reduced the sugar way down, and otherwise went with my recent somewhat lower-oregano seasoning.

*****

Change number 2 this week was I tested Romano vs Parm separately, each on top of the sauce respective halves of the pie. I liked the parm better. The Romano seemed too strong. But my view seems to change on this bake to bake.

*****

Last, I increased the bake time to 8:20 (shout out to JKB's recent amazing slice that I think was at 9 minutes). Only the last 0:20 was directly on the stone. This was a nice improvement.

*****
When forming the pie, I made more effort to really stretch the dough when I knuckle stretched. I have a tendency to go around and around, and gravity does too much of the work. Also, while I pushed down on the rim quite a bit to flatten it, I did shape it this week which helped keep the cheese from sliding onto it.

*****
Negatives for this pie was a bit of cheese browning that I wasn't looking for, and some bubbles. Maybe a bit too much sauce, and probably still too much seasoning.
Positives, sauce consistency and resulting melt. Better stretched and baked crust.

Next time: Reduce the romano if I do a comparison again, probably try only strained 7/11, slight reduction in sauce, slight reduction in oregano, stick with 8:20 or longer the 0.0925 TF and everything else.


 
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on June 17, 2018, 09:40:17 PM
Nice one Matt, that undercrust looks awesome!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on June 17, 2018, 10:46:41 PM
Man, Matt! Each of those pictures made me hungrier than the last. Excellent!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: HansB on June 17, 2018, 10:48:44 PM
Very nice!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Little bean on June 18, 2018, 10:14:17 AM
really nice pie
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on June 18, 2018, 10:43:03 AM
That is one of the best NY slices I have seen here in a while - nice work - what was the TF .095?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 18, 2018, 02:29:28 PM
Thanks all.

Norm, TF is 0.0925, almost 2 day CF, and I'm heavy-handed when opening.

Ryan, I don't know if it's the mesh screen or the fact I'm using my kitchen oven with consistent stone temp, but the bottoms have been very consistent (looking). I haven't been posting too many pictures of the bottom because it looks the same every time. Still playing with the bake time to get the bottom and inner texture/doneness right.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: novawaly on June 18, 2018, 04:33:29 PM

I pushed 7/11 through the strainer, and the result had the same look and thinness of the pizzeria sauces I've purchased. It was awesome. (See pic.)

Then I pushed just the tomatoes from a can of Cento San Marzano through, and the result was almost pure water. Next I tried the puree that was in the can of Cento. It looked fine, but the taste was horrible by comparison to the 7/11. It tasted like water with a bitter tin flavor.

Last I decided it was time to crack open a small retail-size jar of Tomato Magic. Tasted so good out of the jar. The result after pushing it through the strainer was notably thicker and darker in color compared to the 7/11. It tasted very similar to the 7/11, maybe a little richer, but I liked them both equally. (Note that the 7/11 was previously frozen while the Tomato Magic was fresh.)

I decided to mix the 7/11 and Tomato Magic for my sauce. I reduced the sugar way down, and otherwise went with my recent somewhat lower-oregano seasoning.


Wow - that's a great looking pie man. Very nice work.  I had some real sauce issues this weekend so very excited to try this out.

I can't seem to find any 7/11 or Tomato Magic in cans smaller than the #10 (6lbs). Did you find a smaller one somewhere or do they just not make it? Also - this may be a silly question but are ground tomatoes and crushed tomatoes the same thing?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 18, 2018, 07:57:06 PM
Wow - that's a great looking pie man. Very nice work.  I had some real sauce issues this weekend so very excited to try this out.

I can't seem to find any 7/11 or Tomato Magic in cans smaller than the #10 (6lbs). Did you find a smaller one somewhere or do they just not make it? Also - this may be a silly question but are ground tomatoes and crushed tomatoes the same thing?

Thanks. I really dont know whether the terms ground or crushed mean anything different. 7/11 is made with unpeeled tomato as they claim the flesh just under the peel adds a rich "velvet", while tomato magic is peeled. I found a small jar of TM at sansone foods on Long Island, but it costs pretty much the same as a #10 can. I've been freezing individual portions from #10 cans with pretty good luck.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on June 21, 2018, 11:57:10 AM
Matt, beautiful pie and interesting experiment with tomatoes. I've been using scalfani crushed, every grocery store around here carries it and I've stocked up when it goes on sale for $1 per 28 oz. can. I'm guessing it's pretty easy to find in your neck of the woods. I think it's worth a try as I got the idea from Craig's thread and I'm sure he's tried a lot of different brands.

I'm really starting to like my mesh pan results, as someone noted in one of my threads, not sure I'd ever have bought a peel or steel if I'd started with a mesh pan.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 21, 2018, 12:14:50 PM
Matt, beautiful pie and interesting experiment with tomatoes. I've been using scalfani crushed, every grocery store around here carries it and I've stocked up when it goes on sale for $1 per 28 oz. can. I'm guessing it's pretty easy to find in your neck of the woods. I think it's worth a try as I got the idea from Craig's thread and I'm sure he's tried a lot of different brands.


Absolutely, I was thinking that I'd try straining Sclafani Crushed at some point. I use it for pasta sauces (and even have the cans decorating my dining room), but always thought it was too thick for my melt. It may come down to whether a fresh can of sclafani is better than frozen batches of commercial products in number 10 cans. Will be interesting, though I expect 7/11 will win even frozen.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on June 21, 2018, 03:37:41 PM
Man I just couldn't get on with Sclafani crushed at all, not sure if it's just an East Coast vs West Coast thing like Biggie and Tupac but I was liking the Tuttorosso crushed last time I had a case here.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: novawaly on June 21, 2018, 10:15:52 PM
Matt, beautiful pie and interesting experiment with tomatoes. I've been using scalfani crushed, every grocery store around here carries it and I've stocked up when it goes on sale for $1 per 28 oz. can. I'm guessing it's pretty easy to find in your neck of the woods. I think it's worth a try as I got the idea from Craig's thread and I'm sure he's tried a lot of different brands.

I'm really starting to like my mesh pan results, as someone noted in one of my threads, not sure I'd ever have bought a peel or steel if I'd started with a mesh pan.

Whats a mesh pan? Like a screen that you just put on the steel or just directly on the rack? Any link to an example?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 22, 2018, 07:14:27 AM
Whats a mesh pan? Like a screen that you just put on the steel or just directly on the rack? Any link to an example?

He's referring to a pizza screen
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45793.msg534643#msg534643
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on June 22, 2018, 11:02:53 PM
He's referring to a pizza screen
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45793.msg534643#msg534643

 :-[
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 24, 2018, 08:40:05 PM
:-[

No worries QD, we're all friends here  :chef:

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 02, 2018, 06:34:10 PM
Just had another slice at Rose's in Penn Station. It's a different tomato than I'm used to. Some hard cheese flavor. And I suspect a ton of sugar in both the sauce and dough. I like the consistency of the crust, soft and chewy.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jvp123 on July 02, 2018, 06:41:25 PM
Just had another slice at Rose's in Penn Station. It's a different tomato than I'm used to. Some hard cheese flavor. And I suspect a ton of sugar in both the sauce and dough. I like the consistency of the crust, soft and chewy.

Crust color is interesting ... almost looks like it was painted with butter pre bake to get that shiny golden brown.  Your crusts look similar - perhaps its the long, low temp bake?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 02, 2018, 06:53:48 PM
Crust color is interesting ... almost looks like it was painted with butter pre bake to get that shiny golden brown.  Your crusts look similar - perhaps its the long, low temp bake?

I was at a counter under bright lights, could impact the color a bit. Link at the bottom below to some pics I posted of a previous visit including undercrust.

Definitely seems like low temp long bake to me. Softness and taste suggested high sugar and oil. (I always think back to the softness of the one Papa John's clone I baked.) I really cant imagine baking a NY pizza in less than 7 minutes. It just produces something different.

I open my dough in oil. I noted in the link that their dough seemed to be in an oil bath. Undercrust definitely had raw flour today though.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45569.msg474313#msg474313

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on July 02, 2018, 08:11:57 PM
I thought that was one of mine at first.  :-D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 02, 2018, 08:43:06 PM
I thought that was one of mine at first.  :-D

Love that slice. The specs were posted here:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg533965#msg533965

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 07, 2018, 09:14:38 PM
This was easily the best NY pie I've made  :chef:
It had cheese stretch, orange grease, a light crisp, chew, and delicious sauce  :chef:
(Only complaints were dough related, with bubbles and an inconsistent stretch)

Some changes from previous bakes:
* I hope this isn't the driving factor - my tomato and cheese were fresh out the packages, not previously frozen
* Like last time, I strained my tomatoes, but now only used 7/11
* My sauce ingredient ratios were a bit different (details below)
* Slightly less sauce (at 3/4 cup for the slightly big pie of ~14.25")
* TF small reduction to 0.09125
* Slightly longer bake, up to 8:30 (with oven set to 500)

I tested 2 tsp parm on top of the sauce on half of the pie vs 1/2 tsp romano on the other half, parm won again.

Undercrust had an interesting observation. My stone heats up unevenly in my oven, and I didn't rotate it. 505 in the front around 515 elsewhere. I really liked the light undercrust at the 505 portion (see pics for comparison), will need to try to make the stone an even 505.

Sauce details:
The base was 1+1/4 cups of strained 7/11 (strained 1+1/2 cups to get there). This is actually lower than my usual 1+1/2, meaning some of my ingredients were increased relative to the amount of tomato.
Ingredients:
Garlic granulated 1/16+1/32 tsp
Pepper 1/16 tsp
Sugar 1/2 tsp (this is an increase)
Basil 1 cube of Dorot frozen
Oregano Sicilian 1/2 tsp (this is a decrease)
EVOO 1/2 tsp (this is a decrease)


Next time:
Try for entire stone 505, figure out how to get rid of the bubbles (Edit: more fingertip opening), stretch it consistently, everything else the same

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on July 08, 2018, 10:28:41 AM
 :drool: that cheese/sauce marriage looks fantastic sir!

What a pie! Love when the cheese actually has some stretch  :pizza:

How much cheese on this one?

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 08, 2018, 10:48:27 AM
Thanks Ryan! My usual 9oz (50/50 wm/ps). I've tried an extra 1/8 oz, but it seemed too much
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 08, 2018, 12:46:03 PM
  ;D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on July 08, 2018, 02:55:10 PM
I can tell that was a good crust by looking at it.  I eliminate bubbles with yeast restraint and beating the hell out of the dough.  Dude!  It's summer - grow some basil!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 08, 2018, 03:38:36 PM
I can tell that was a good crust by looking at it.  I eliminate bubbles with yeast restraint and beating the hell out of the dough.  Dude!  It's summer - grow some basil!

Thanks! Yeah, I usually beat up my dough too. But I've been focusing on edge stretch and trying to get a consistent thin stretch, and I barely touched anything away from the edge this time. It was a mistake.

One reason I dont want to grow basil is that I want a consistent repeatable process all year round. And I dont want it outside and my attempt to grow it indoors last year failed. The Dorot cubes are good though and will be consistent.  I think its 20 cubes in a pack, so that should get me through 6 months of bakes.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 14, 2018, 09:07:10 PM
This pie was basically a NY pizzeria pie  :chef:

The strained sauce makes such a difference.

That said, it just slightly lacked a bit of oomph that the pie last week had (but I'm really nitpicking). Perhaps it was the fact that the cheese and tomato were previously frozen this time. Or I think I slightly under-cheesed it as I usually measure my cheese in a way that causes the scale to round down to 9oz, meaning its probably closer to 9+1/16 than 9.0. Interestingly my wife and I independently thought that a bit of salt would've been good. I generally don't salt my sauce, just relying on the salt that's already added in the 7/11, but maybe I'll add a bit.

I used All Trumps (unbleached/unbromated) for the first time, and it definitely was a step up from KASL, but not a dramatic change. The dough opened easier, with a more even slice (though still some thin areas). And it tasted a bit better. (And it's a lot less expensive than what I was paying for KA.)

I tried to lower my stone temp, but failed. I reduced the oven temp halfway through the preheat to 480. I kept monitoring the temp, but left it for 15 minutes and the stone jumped from 485 to 510.

Next time: maybe try a little salt in the sauce, don't under cheese it (make sure the scale rounds down to 9oz and trust my judgment as I knew it looked lighter than usual), maybe try again to get the stone temp lower towards an even 500.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on July 15, 2018, 07:38:15 AM
Nice pie.  That bottom is GBD.  I've finally admitted to myself that even 7/11 can use salt and it's made a big difference.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on July 15, 2018, 10:05:18 AM
Very nice pie, love that bottom! Great melt, nice small rim  :drool:

I agree regarding salt in the sauce, I've been quite surpised by the amount of posters that say they don't add salt to the sauce. Even a 3% salt dough doesn't seem to really compensate for lack of sauce flavor/seasoning in my experience.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: rlslmshdy on July 18, 2018, 06:58:36 PM
I tried to lower my stone temp, but failed. I reduced the oven temp halfway through the preheat to 480. I kept monitoring the temp, but left it for 15 minutes and the stone jumped from 485 to 510.

Next time: maybe try a little salt in the sauce, don't under cheese it (make sure the scale rounds down to 9oz and trust my judgment as I knew it looked lighter than usual), maybe try again to get the stone temp lower towards an even 500.
You could have opened the oven door for a bit to lower your stone templ back down. I know ive done this occasionally when my steel plate got hotter than i wanted.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 18, 2018, 08:29:17 PM
You could have opened the oven door for a bit to lower your stone templ back down. I know ive done this occasionally when my steel plate got hotter than i wanted.

Thanks. I'd be concerned about losing the oven temp and heating my house even more than I am already. But along the same lines, I could take the stone out of the oven to cool off. I'm not too concerned about this, it should be solvable, particularly given I was able to do a good job setting stone temp with a Blackstone.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 21, 2018, 09:39:36 PM
My first thought was that this is getting silly...but I guess after a few years of work, finally getting consistent flavor shouldn't be a surprise  :chef:

Changes:
- Added 1/4 tsp salt into my sauce - good, but may reduce to 1/8 tsp.
- Stone temp lowered to 490 - good, but I need to rotate my pie mid-bake because some spots still a little overdone, while other spots are under.
- Put parm into the sauce (just before bake) instead of on top of it - good, possibly reduce the amount
- Really focused on shaping the rim - good, I liked the look
- I was late in getting my dough out of the fridge, so it sat for 1.5 hours, but I put it near my oven. Seemed to work well.

Still to fix:
- Stretch was still inconsistent. The thickest spot tasted like many NY pizzerias I've had, while the thin spots were decadent cheese/sauce/soft crust blends. I think in between would be perfect, which should mean my TF (of 0.09125) will work if I stretch it evenly.
- The saucy pie is awesome, but I may try one with a bit less sauce just to see how it goes.


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on July 21, 2018, 10:30:06 PM
Thanks for posting a sauced and cheesed skin, I think those type of pics are really helpful. The sauce looks great and the melt looks killer! Real nice pie!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: HansB on July 22, 2018, 05:57:16 AM
My first thought was that this is getting silly...but I guess after a few years of work, finally getting consistent flavor shouldn't be a surprise  :chef:

Changes:
- Added 1/4 tsp salt into my sauce - good, but may reduce to 1/8 tsp.
- Stone temp lowered to 490 - good, but I need to rotate my pie mid-bake because some spots still a little overdone, while other spots are under.
- Put parm into the sauce (just before bake) instead of on top of it - good, possibly reduce the amount
- Really focused on shaping the rim - good, I liked the look
- I was late in getting my dough out of the fridge, so it sat for 1.5 hours, but I put it near my oven. Seemed to work well.

Still to fix:
- Stretch was still inconsistent. The thickest spot tasted like many NY pizzerias I've had, while the thin spots were decadent cheese/sauce/soft crust blends. I think in between would be perfect, which should mean my TF (of 0.09125) will work if I stretch it evenly.
- The saucy pie is awesome, but I may try one with a bit less sauce just to see how it goes.

That looks excellent! I admire your dedication to getting it just the way you want it.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 22, 2018, 01:20:27 PM
Next day reheat for the kids. I've started pre-heating the metal tray that comes with the toaster oven. It works pretty well.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on July 24, 2018, 10:18:59 AM
I wonder why we get such different looking bakes? I like the pizza I'm making but would love to have the ability to make a pie like yours too. You're much better at stretching but I can't believe that's the entire difference.

thoughts?

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on July 24, 2018, 12:40:23 PM
I wonder why we get such different looking bakes? I like the pizza I'm making but would love to have the ability to make a pie like yours too. You're much better at stretching but I can't believe that's the entire difference.

thoughts?

Isn't your slice philosophy like the opposite of Matt's? Different decking materials, cheese blends, bake times. I think you'll need to align closer to that work flow to get a pie like that.

Personally I was over-baking my NY pies for quite some time, suggestions from Matt, Roy Parker, and Harry Haller really helped my pies a lot there. I'm not saying you are over baking as it's very subjective how people like their slice, but I did find that I was actually losing flavors chasing a certain crust color that I thought would give me more flavor.

I believe it was Roy who cued me into the golden brown delicious undercrust contrasting off spots of char, and a lighter, sweet, wheat-y tasting rim.





Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 24, 2018, 01:20:40 PM
I wonder why we get such different looking bakes? I like the pizza I'm making but would love to have the ability to make a pie like yours too. You're much better at stretching but I can't believe that's the entire difference.

thoughts?

Thanks QD. Any particular aspect you're focusing on? I'd be happy to elaborate on any part of my process.

As Ryan suggested, our bake process itself is likely very different. I transitioned to several aspects that were traditionally frowned upon on the forum. I deliberately bake at 500 degrees. I'm working on lowering my stone temp to the mid 400s. And I'm using a screen (albeit an atypical one). All will lead to low and slow bakes compared to the other end of the spectrum (steel and broiler).
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on July 24, 2018, 05:29:35 PM
matt, thanks, in particular, I love the way your melt integrates the cheese and sauce. In one of our threads, harry noted the nuance of cheese on top vs. cheese and sauce integration. I think you've achieved integration while my cheese clearly sits on top. my bake is 500F convection for 8 mins on steel, I never use the broiler. I do have a pizza screen that I can play with.

What brand of cheese are you using? I'm 50-50 grande east coast blend and cabot cheddar. for a 13 inch pie, that works out to 5 ounces of each or 10 total, (which seems pretty heavy).

ryan, thanks for your reply too! I've tried 10 min bakes at 450-475, with much the same result. I agree my crust is darker than a typical ny crust but a lot of my crust color is coming from 2% ldmp and I'm pretty happy with the flavor. In any case, as noted above, I'd like to reproduce matt's melt if possible. I'm starting to think the five ounces of (relatively) finely grated cheddar might be a large contributing factor...



best,
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: parallei on July 24, 2018, 06:01:06 PM
I'll admit that the NY Slice is not my favorite pizza style. Looking at Matt's work over the years, he could probably convince me otherwise. :chef:

I'll also echo the sentiments that Matt's dedication to his favorite style is a fine thing to see. 
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 24, 2018, 06:35:49 PM
matt, thanks, in particular, I love the way your melt integrates the cheese and sauce. In one of our threads, harry noted the nuance of cheese on top vs. cheese and sauce integration. I think you've achieved integration while my cheese clearly sits on top. my bake is 500F convection for 8 mins on steel, I never use the broiler. I do have a pizza screen that I can play with.

What brand of cheese are you using? I'm 50-50 grande east coast blend and cabot cheddar. for a 13 inch pie, that works out to 5 ounces of each or 10 total, (which seems pretty heavy).

ryan, thanks for your reply too! I've tried 10 min bakes at 450-475, with much the same result. I agree my crust is darker than a typical ny crust but a lot of my crust color is coming from 2% ldmp and I'm pretty happy with the flavor. In any case, as noted above, I'd like to reproduce matt's melt if possible. I'm starting to think the five ounces of (relatively) finely grated cheddar might be a large contributing factor...

best,

It took me seemingly forever to get to this melt. I was close a couple times before, but there were compromises on other flavors that weren't acceptable.

I'm using 100% grande east coast blend. 9+1/8 oz on this 14" pie. 3/4 cup of sauce. Ratios are important. This pie is fairly saucy, you can see the pre bake pics above.

I had a huge breakthrough a few weeks ago, and I noted at the time that it was based on something you said. Sauce thinness/consistency is crucial. I knew this back when I was experimenting on the "melt" thread, but I was going about it poorly. I was using an average whole peeled to get thinness (putting it in the blender), but the feel and flavor was too watery,  so I tried adding crushed tomatoes to it. That helped the flavor, but hurt the melt. I was in no-mans land for a while, then a couple months ago I bought sauce from a pizzeria, baked a pie, and achieved a near-perfect melt. This drove me to seek the thin consistency of their sauce. Your (QD's) suggestion was to use a strainer. So simple, but pushing 7/11 through a strainer to remove the skin and seeds got me here.

How much sauce are you using? I would stop the cheddar temporarily, but make up for the flavor loss with parm and/or romano. Maybe reduce a bit from 10oz cheese. Edge stretching has been very helpful too, as it keeps the sauce and cheese in place.



Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 24, 2018, 06:39:47 PM
I'll admit that the NY Slice is not my favorite pizza style. Looking at Matt's work over the years, he could probably convince me otherwise. :chef:

I'll also echo the sentiments that Matt's dedication to his favorite style is a fine thing to see.

You guys are making me blush  :)

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on July 24, 2018, 08:44:43 PM
thanks matt! I've been using one ladle of sauce but haven't bothered with weighing or true measuring. I'll do so next bake along with your suggestion of swapping out the cheddar. How much hard cheese do you use?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 24, 2018, 08:53:10 PM
I'm not set on how much hard cheese to use, but currently around 5 tsp of parm.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 26, 2018, 09:03:31 PM
It's funny to stumble upon some of my old posts.

I'm with you as well. Achieving optimal grease transforms a pie. The challenge of doing it properly and consistently has kept me busy for the last year and a half.

That was a year and a half ago. So 3 years total. Man, I move slowly!

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: sodface on July 26, 2018, 10:00:16 PM
It's funny to stumble upon some of my old posts.

That was a year and a half ago. So 3 years total. Man, I move slowly!

Set a reminder to come back and quote this post again in 3 years - you might have added some pepperoni by then  :-D (just joking!)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on July 26, 2018, 11:34:29 PM
It's funny to stumble upon some of my old posts.

That was a year and a half ago. So 3 years total. Man, I move slowly!
I like to say 的知 not too fast but I知 not too good either.  ;D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 27, 2018, 06:54:45 AM
Set a reminder to come back and quote this post again in 3 years - you might have added some pepperoni by then  :-D (just joking!)

 :-D

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 28, 2018, 09:36:35 PM
Orange grease in full effect, loved this pie! Was exactly the flavor I've always tried for  :chef:.  (Just need to nail down my crust. And it better not mess up my melt and flavor.)

Changes:
- Lowered the stone temp to 450, which led me to bake the final 3 minutes directly on the stone, which is much more than usual. I think this led to the increase in orange grease blend.
- Reduced sauce seasoning, which led to great tomato flavor and still enough herbs/flavor. (Reduced salt, pepper, garlic, basil, EVOO and parm. Kept sugar and oregano unchanged.)
- Threw out the water that came out of the 7/11 as it defrosted, instead of mixing it back in. (See first pic.) Then went through the strainer as usual.
- Dough, increased oil to 4% and sugar to 2%. Not sure about this. May try lowering the oil and keeping to sugar to see what happens.

Crust bake - still had many thin spots, and was a little doughy.

9+1/8oz cheese.

Next time:
Only let the dough sit out for 1:20 before opening instead of 2:20 to try to reduce the thin spots.
Maybe increase the TF (currently at .09125) to .0925
Exact same sauce and cheese.
Not sure what dough formula.
Not sure what stone temp. Keep it low so I bake on the stone more, but fully bake the dough
 

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on July 28, 2018, 10:30:02 PM
That saucy pie looks great Matt  :drool:

Are you using fresh or dried basil? I know dried basil is pretty taboo for the NY section but it seems to add an interesting sweet anise/fennel flavor.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 29, 2018, 05:58:11 AM
Thanks Ryan! I'm using Dorot frozen (fresh) basil cubes, which I found at Trader Joes. It does smell like fresh basil when I defrost it. 20 cubes in the pack, so it'll last me a while. I only used half a cube (instead of my usual full cube) in 1.25 cups sauce (of which 0.75 cup went onto the 14" pie).
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on August 05, 2018, 10:51:43 AM
Nice improvements in the crust this week. Flavor overall was ok, lacked the extra oomph again.

Crust changes driven by:
- 4% oil, 1.3% sugar - will do again

- stone 470-480 after preheating oven at 450 - will do again

- bake 8:10 with 1:10 direct on stone - will do again

- the dough came out smoother than normal. some little changes in my notes, but I think what did it was I put the oil in a bit sooner than usual.

- took the dough out 45 minutes later than usual - it helped, next time do another 15 minutes later

The stretch was still a bit inconsistent, with the edge stretch underdone in certain spots. One slice had the thickness I'm looking for, a couple pics of it below. TF was .0925. Will do this again, but may need to increase it a bit.

Sauce - seemed a bit less wet, though also seemed less tomatoey at the same time, which is odd. Maybe I removed too much water before straining. There was also an odd flavor that I cant really describe (which I sometimes get), kindof salty/garlicy/bittery/metallicy?


Next bake:
Exact same dough and bake process.

- Take dough out another 15 minutes later

- Try to open more evenly.

- A bit less sauce. (This one was a precise 3/4 cup.)

- A bit less cheese (stick to an actual 9oz).

- Try halving the garlic.


In the future at some point:

- Try grocery store oregano to see the difference from the sicilian I use.

- Likely increase the TF.
 

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on August 05, 2018, 11:13:16 AM
looks great Matt! I'm really finding your notes helpful/interesting. How long do you ferment your dough? do you use ldmp? Anyhow, with your help, I changed the ratios as per your post. Turns out I was way too heavy on the cheese, I was happy with the melt and everyone loved the new ratios. If I dropped the cheddar as per your suggestion, I'm guessing I might end up with something close to your melt.

best,
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on August 05, 2018, 11:20:21 AM
Thanks Ryan! I'm using Dorot frozen (fresh) basil cubes, which I found at Trader Joes. It does smell like fresh basil when I defrost it. 20 cubes in the pack, so it'll last me a while. I only used half a cube (instead of my usual full cube) in 1.25 cups sauce (of which 0.75 cup went onto the 14" pie).



Uh, It's August.  Just sayin'.  ;D


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on August 05, 2018, 12:00:56 PM

Sauce - seemed a bit less wet, though also seemed less tomatoey at the same time, which is odd. Maybe I removed too much water before straining. There was also an odd flavor that I cant really describe (which I sometimes get), kindof salty/garlicy/bittery/metallicy?


Maybe more sugar would push through the bitterness? I think salt, garlic, olive oil, and oregano can all add a bitterness.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on August 05, 2018, 04:54:35 PM

Uh, It's August.  Just sayin'.  ;D


I maintain that my logic below is sound. I really dont want to have to make a late in the week supermarket stop each non-summer week to buy the fresh stuff. Maybe if I was trying to make basil a core component of my flavor. But I'm currently trying to have oregano in the forefront.

All that said, I should try fresh. But I'm afraid I'll like it!

One reason I dont want to grow basil is that I want a consistent repeatable process all year round. And I dont want it outside and my attempt to grow it indoors last year failed. The Dorot cubes are good though and will be consistent.  I think its 20 cubes in a pack, so that should get me through 6 months of bakes.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on August 05, 2018, 04:58:26 PM
looks great Matt! I'm really finding your notes helpful/interesting. How long do you ferment your dough? do you use ldmp? Anyhow, with your help, I changed the ratios as per your post. Turns out I was way too heavy on the cheese, I was happy with the melt and everyone loved the new ratios. If I dropped the cheddar as per your suggestion, I'm guessing I might end up with something close to your melt.

best,

Thanks QD!  I'm glad you're finding my posts useful. It's funny, I've always loved your melts!

I ferment for about 45 hours. I've never tried LDMP. Should I?? I use All Trumps unbleached unbromated.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on August 05, 2018, 05:03:17 PM
Maybe more sugar would push through the bitterness? I think salt, garlic, olive oil, and oregano can all add a bitterness.

Thanks Ryan. I'm at 1/2 tsp sugar for 1.25 cups sauce. Think I should add more? I was thinking of reducing the garlic which is currently (1/16 tsp). I was actually able to taste the garlic, which I dont think is a good thing.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on August 05, 2018, 05:17:23 PM
Thanks QD!  I'm glad you're finding my posts useful. It's funny, I've always loved your melts!

I ferment for about 45 hours. I've never tried LDMP. Should I?? I use All Trumps unbleached unbromated.

I think you should give it a whirl! I just ordered 1.5 pounds which should last about 3 years  :) Let's try to meet for a slice at suprema and I'll bring you some!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on August 05, 2018, 05:25:56 PM
I think you should give it a whirl! I just ordered 1.5 pounds which should last about 3 years  :) Let's try to meet for a slice at suprema and I'll bring you some!

Have you been to Suprema?  I found it mediocre, at best.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on August 05, 2018, 07:48:11 PM
Have you been to Suprema?  I found it mediocre, at best.

I liked it, review below. Very different than the mozz-heavy Queens style I'm working on, but I liked the sauce.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=48058.msg483516#msg483516

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on August 05, 2018, 07:48:40 PM
I think you should give it a whirl! I just ordered 1.5 pounds which should last about 3 years  :) Let's try to meet for a slice at suprema and I'll bring you some!

Sounds great!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on August 05, 2018, 09:02:49 PM
I liked it, review below. Very different than the mozz-heavy Queens style I'm working on, but I liked the sauce.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=48058.msg483516#msg483516

I got a peek in their storeroom.   All I saw was Saporito.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norma427 on August 06, 2018, 05:41:11 AM
Nice improvements in the crust this week. Flavor overall was ok, lacked the extra oomph again.

Crust changes driven by:
- 4% oil, 1.3% sugar - will do again

- stone 470-480 after preheating oven at 450 - will do again

- bake 8:10 with 1:10 direct on stone - will do again

- the dough came out smoother than normal. some little changes in my notes, but I think what did it was I put the oil in a bit sooner than usual.

- took the dough out 45 minutes later than usual - it helped, next time do another 15 minutes later

The stretch was still a bit inconsistent, with the edge stretch underdone in certain spots. One slice had the thickness I'm looking for, a couple pics of it below. TF was .0925. Will do this again, but may need to increase it a bit.

Sauce - seemed a bit less wet, though also seemed less tomatoey at the same time, which is odd. Maybe I removed too much water before straining. There was also an odd flavor that I cant really describe (which I sometimes get), kindof salty/garlicy/bittery/metallicy?


Next bake:
Exact same dough and bake process.

- Take dough out another 15 minutes later

- Try to open more evenly.

- A bit less sauce. (This one was a precise 3/4 cup.)

- A bit less cheese (stick to an actual 9oz).

- Try halving the garlic.


In the future at some point:

- Try grocery store oregano to see the difference from the sicilian I use.

- Likely increase the TF.

Matt,

Very good looking NY style pizza!  ;D :chef:

Norma
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on August 06, 2018, 07:30:41 AM
Matt,

Very good looking NY style pizza!  ;D :chef:

Norma

Thanks Norma!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on August 06, 2018, 07:33:11 AM
I got a peek in their storeroom.   All I saw was Saporito.

We actually had this conversation on the sauce thread. It started with my post linked below that shows a picture of their delivery with Saporito filets and Bonta.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=48058.msg488748#msg488748

Would be interested to know exactly what hard cheese they use.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on August 06, 2018, 08:01:11 AM
We actually had this conversation on the sauce thread. It started with my post linked below that shows a picture of their delivery with Saporito filets and Bonta.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=48058.msg488748#msg488748

Would be interested to know exactly what hard cheese they use.

I'm that guy that tells the same old stories over and over again.

I use Locatelli, grana Padano and Parmigiano-Reggiano because they're staples in my fridge.  I bet a lot of places use domestic.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on August 06, 2018, 11:02:52 AM
I'm that guy that tells the same old stories over and over again.

I use Locatelli, grana Padano and Parmigiano-Reggiano because they're staples in my fridge.  I bet a lot of places use domestic.

At least you're consistent  :)

Do you use all 3 of the hard cheeses at the same time? My last several bakes were parm only, but I'm thinking about adding some romano back in.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on August 06, 2018, 12:06:01 PM
Thanks Ryan. I'm at 1/2 tsp sugar for 1.25 cups sauce. Think I should add more? I was thinking of reducing the garlic which is currently (1/16 tsp). I was actually able to taste the garlic, which I dont think is a good thing.

The sugar thing is so subjective, I sometimes add a tablespoon to a 28 oz can of tomatoes, somethings none. I guess if the tomatoes are that good they don't need it but I tend to like a sweet sauce, and I prefer a sweet tomato, my favorites are those farmers market grape tomatoes brimming with a sweet & zesty flavor. I almost never have canned tomatoes that are sweet like that. IIRC Roy was also adding about 1 tbsp per can. It's one of those things I'm constantly changing though.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on August 06, 2018, 12:06:11 PM
I'm that guy that tells the same old stories over and over again.
I知 told, over and over actually, we have that in common. ::)  Then we will be out somewhere and I get 奏ell so and so about the time...
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on August 06, 2018, 12:15:56 PM
At least you're consistent  :)

Do you use all 3 of the hard cheeses at the same time? My last several bakes were parm only, but I'm thinking about adding some romano back in.

Sometimes.  It's always pecorino in the sauce and grana and/or parm in the sauce or on the pie on the sauce, or on the mozz, or post bake...  I never do anything the same way twice.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on August 19, 2018, 03:06:30 PM
This was a good pie. Nice chew, tomato flavor, melt and grease.

Changes below, will do all again:
- Mixed dough a minute longer, resulting doughball was really smooth, like ones I see posted here.
- Took dough out of fridge 45 minutes later than usual, less bubbles but still some, I liked how I was in better control of the stretch.
- Halved the garlic in sauce
- Halved the oregano in sauce
- Added back some (maybe 1/4) of the water than came out of the tomato during the defrost. I tasted the water, and it had a nice tomato/acid/salty flavor.
- Slightly less sauce (didn't quite fill the 3/4 measure cup) and slightly less cheese (proper 9oz), nice melt and grease.
- 8:30 bake including last 1:30 on stone. Stone was 455-475 after preheating oven at 450. Set oven to 500 after launch.
- Following photography discussions with Jonas (jsaras) I borrowed my brother-in-law's camera lens. Many of my pics used an f-stop of 1.8. Still not thrilled with the white balance, and liked the auto white balance better than using a grey card. Still work to do, but definitely an improvement.

For next time:
- Add another 1/4tsp of sugar into the sauce.
- Consider adding more basil and/or oregano.
- Consider adding a bit more of the tomato water back just before bake (as my sauce thickened).
- Less parm in sauce.
- Increase the TF to 0.09375 (from 0.0925)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on August 19, 2018, 03:30:16 PM
That is a beauty, Matt  :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: RetroRayGun on August 19, 2018, 05:25:07 PM
That cheese blend looks delicious, superb ratio!

Looks like it will be a tasty re-heat, even better as a cold slice candidate.  :drool:

If there's any left...
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on August 19, 2018, 06:53:37 PM
That cheese blend looks delicious, superb ratio!

Looks like it will be a tasty re-heat, even better as a cold slice candidate.  :drool:

If there's any left...

Thanks! The leftover slice was reheated for my daughter earlier today. Good thing my son was at a birthday party with pizza at the time  ;D


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on August 19, 2018, 07:07:29 PM
I was really craving a slice right now and figured I better check the forum to see if Matt posted a pizza today.

Love that juicy melt, super legit  ;D

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on August 20, 2018, 05:02:46 PM
Beautiful pie Matt!! What size was it?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on August 20, 2018, 05:19:27 PM
Beautiful pie Matt!! What size was it?

Thanks! All my pies have been 14". Given I'm using a screen though, that would allow me to do some 16" pies at some point, which is the largest I can fit in my oven.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on August 20, 2018, 05:33:46 PM
Thanks! All my pies have been 14". Given I'm using a screen though, that would allow me to do some 16" pies at some point, which is the largest I can fit in my oven.

6 cut on a 16" pie makes a nice slice  :D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jvp123 on August 20, 2018, 05:41:49 PM
Thanks! All my pies have been 14". Given I'm using a screen though, that would allow me to do some 16" pies at some point, which is the largest I can fit in my oven.

Is that 9oz of cheese on that 14 er?  No wonder I never get melts that nice! Beautiful :pizza:. :chef:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on August 20, 2018, 05:49:28 PM
Is that 9oz of cheese on that 14 er?  No wonder I never get melts that nice! Beautiful :pizza:. :chef:

It sure is...and just about 3/4 cup of thin sauce, which is important for the melt too. You should give it a shot, though in my experience starting from 5oz cheese, it worked doing baby steps of a half ounce increase per bake. I'm not sure I would've liked going straight from 5oz to 9oz.

I'm sure at some point I'll do thinner/less topped pies as I like all different styles, but for now I'm pretty content  :chef:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jvp123 on August 20, 2018, 05:53:08 PM
It sure is...and just about 3/4 cup of thin sauce, which is important for the melt too. You should give it a shot, though in my experience starting from 5oz cheese, it worked doing baby steps of a half ounce increase per bake. I'm not sure I would've liked going straight from 5oz to 9oz.

I'm sure at some point I'll do thinner/less topped pies as I like all different styles, but for now I'm pretty content  :chef:

I知 definitely gonna try it. Thin sauce is key, as well. I agree.  Looks sooo good.  :drool:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Hermit on August 20, 2018, 06:28:09 PM
Kick ass Matt, thanks for sharing  :chef: :pizza: :pizza:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jsaras on August 21, 2018, 10:21:48 AM
I've taken the liberty of touching up the color in a couple of your photos.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on August 21, 2018, 10:24:00 AM
I've taken the liberty of touching up the color in a couple of your photos.

Pls add pepperoni too  :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on August 21, 2018, 10:28:13 AM
I've taken the liberty of touching up the color in a couple of your photos.

Wow that's spot on, that might be the best NY melt on the forum.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on August 21, 2018, 11:11:30 AM
Pls add pepperoni too  :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

Now why would you want to ruin a good pizza?  :-D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on August 21, 2018, 05:31:27 PM
I've taken the liberty of touching up the color in a couple of your photos.

Many thanks Jonas. It's interesting, I'm so used to looking at pictures of my pizza with the yellow hue. That may have held me back from using the custom white balance last weekend.

I've been close to getting interested in photography a few times. This might be the time it sticks. I care so much about my pizza, I want the photos to show the true color. I think I'm more excited to try out some more photography changes this weekend than I am about the extra 1/4 tsp of sugar that's going into my sauce  :D
Title: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jsaras on August 21, 2018, 07:38:51 PM
Many thanks Jonas. It's interesting, I'm so used to looking at pictures of my pizza with the yellow hue. That may have held me back from using the custom white balance last weekend.

I've been close to getting interested in photography a few times. This might be the time it sticks. I care so much about my pizza, I want the photos to show the true color. I think I'm more excited to try out some more photography changes this weekend than I am about the extra 1/4 tsp of sugar that's going into my sauce 

For me, the two interests have many elements in commom.  The technical fundamentals are simple and can be learned in a few hours.  The equipment can range from inexpensive to thousands of dollars, but it in no way guarantees success or a better outcome in and of itself.  The end results are enjoyed by everyone.  Most will never know how you did it, but they know it痴 something that was done well.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on August 21, 2018, 08:01:19 PM
For me, the two interests have many elements in commom.  The technical fundamentals are simple and can be learned in a few hours.  The equipment can range from inexpensive to thousands of dollars, but it in no way guarantees success or a better outcome in and of itself.  The end results are enjoyed by everyone.  Most will never know how you did it, but they know it痴 something that was done well.

Well said.

I found a pic I actually took with the custom white balance set on the camera (the first pic). The second pic with auto white balance was taken 13 seconds later.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: RetroRayGun on August 22, 2018, 07:55:25 AM
I've taken the liberty of touching up the color in a couple of your photos.

I second that motion...LOL JK

Hi Matt,

Seriously though, is this around the color range your pizzas are coming out to?

Curiously yours,
Chris
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on August 22, 2018, 12:09:31 PM
I second that motion...LOL JK

Hi Matt,

Seriously though, is this around the color range your pizzas are coming out to?

Curiously yours,
Chris

Yes, I think my cheese would probably look like that if it was outside on a cloudy day. I like it!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: RetroRayGun on August 22, 2018, 02:03:29 PM
Yes, I think my cheese would probably look like that if it was outside on a cloudy day. I like it!

You mean top picture or bottom?  ???

The bottom one is the uncorrected version from your Aug 19th bake... :-X
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on August 22, 2018, 05:30:55 PM
You mean top picture or bottom?  ???

The bottom one is the uncorrected version from your Aug 19th bake... :-X

Yep, top, I understood. But I posted while on an elevator at work and it was rushed and not very clear.

You asked whether the edited photo was the real color of my pizza. The challenge for me in answering is that is I usually see my pizza at night under my kitchen and dining room lights. The lights actually make everything look yellowish, although nowhere near as yellow as my unedited photo came out. But having occassionally seen my pizza outdoors, I expect the color outdoors (ie not distorted by my lights) looks similar to your edit. Make sense?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: RetroRayGun on August 22, 2018, 06:12:30 PM
Yep, top, I understood. But I posted while on an elevator at work and it was rushed and not very clear.

You asked whether the edited photo was the real color of my pizza. The challenge for me in answering is that is I usually see my pizza at night under my kitchen and dining room lights. The lights actually make everything look yellowish, although nowhere near as yellow as my unedited photo came out. But having occassionally seen my pizza outdoors, I expect the color outdoors (ie not distorted by my lights) looks similar to your edit. Make sense?

Absolutely. That's what I figured you meant overall, just trying to see if your sauce, cheese, oil pallete and my own were similar.  :)

Looking forward to your next bake.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on August 25, 2018, 08:26:50 PM
Very tasty pie  :chef:

Changes (all worked except the last one):
- Increased TF to 0.09375 (keep in mind my water is 54%, oil 4% and I beat the dough when opening)
- Cut parm in half
- Increased sugar in sauce
- Slight increase in oregano
- Added more of the tomato water back in
- Took the dough out only 1:05 before baking and it backfired, causing many bubbles. While ugly, it really didn't hurt the taste overall.

I loved how much closer to even my stretch was. But that was made easier by the cold dough, which didn't work because of the bubbles.

Next time:
Don't take dough out so late
Possibly more basil
Edit: Increase the aperture number to try to get more of the pizza in focus

Pics taken with custom white balance (liked the grey card, but not the white card) and exposure compensation. Slowly learning.


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: RetroRayGun on August 25, 2018, 08:44:54 PM
Very tasty pie  :chef:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on August 25, 2018, 11:58:59 PM
I would suggest reducing TF to 0.09374.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on August 26, 2018, 07:12:34 AM
I would suggest reducing TF to 0.09374.

That's what I was shooting for, but my scale was off a litttle  :P

This does make me think of 2 more serious points though: my approach to incremental changes, and my thoughts on TF.

I mentioned last week when I was asked about cheese amount that I gradually increased from 5 oz to 9  oz. I think I need to make the changes gradually to convince myself. Because I think my pies are close to where I want them, a big difference would seem wrong to me. I also reduce the size of the increment as I go. For cheese I went straight from 5 to 6 oz, then went to 1/2 oz increments, then 1/4 oz, now I'm at 1/8. (Kindof like approaching an upper limit.) I have the same approach to TF. I was once set on using 0.07 and it took the gradual, then very gradual increases to get me up to my last bake of .09375. (I also suspect there's a pattern to my increases, where I reject a new high point every first time I try it, then have to go down and back up. I'm tempted to see if I could chart my TF and cheese amount over time, though I'm not sure if my notes are good enough.)

TF is something I certainly misunderstood, and am still learning about, having not realizing the other factors (like hydration, frementation time, dough opening technique) that influence crust thickness in addition to dough weight. 2 things about the average NY slice: First, its not super thin. I think the description as "thin crust" and the perceived thinness of massive slices (especially visually versus a slice from a homebaked 14" or 12" pie) caused me to think its thinner than it really is. Secondly, the crusts have tight crumbs and are heavy. You can often feel the weight to a slice.

All that said, I wouldn't be surprised if many pizzerias are using TFs of 0.10 or even higher. (Harry once told me about a place using 0.11.) But for me, having previously thought thinner is better, it'll take baby steps an alot of learning along the way to get there.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on August 26, 2018, 08:15:59 AM
Looks fantastic Matt - what type of cheese did you use and did you grate it in big slivers or small? I really like the look of it...
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on August 26, 2018, 08:28:35 AM
Looks fantastic Matt - what type of cheese did you use and did you grate it in big slivers or small? I really like the look of it...

Thanks Norm. I'm using Grande East Coast blend (which is 50/50 wm/ps) and comes pre-shredded. I'd call it a medium shread size. When I used to shred my own, I liked using a potato grater for large shreds as opposed to the small shreds from my box grater.

Here are pics of this last pie pre-bake
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on August 26, 2018, 08:41:07 AM
Thanks, I bet that is the cheese 75% or more shops use for NY - sure wish I could get some out here w/o paying a millions dollars for it...

Forgot to ask - does it come frozen?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on August 26, 2018, 08:45:50 AM
Thanks, I bet that is the cheese 75% or more shops use for NY - sure wish I could get some out here w/o paying a millions dollars for it...

Forgot to ask - does it come frozen?

It's definitely popular around here. It doesn't come frozen and the company recommends never freezing their cheese (though I do freeze it).

Edit: at some point I want to make a "grocery store" pie with only ingredients from a typical store. I think with some practice it could be really good. I'm thinking KABF, Sclafani, and a blend of Boars Head and Galbani.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Pete-zza on August 26, 2018, 09:59:53 AM
This does make me think of 2 more serious points though: my approach to incremental changes, and my thoughts on TF.
Matt,

On the matter of thickness factor, you may recall this post I addressed to you a while back at Reply 3 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=43081.msg431153#msg431153

It's quite amazing that you tweaked your value as you progressed so that it is almost exactly what is cited in the above post.

Peter
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on August 26, 2018, 04:33:06 PM
Matt,

On the matter of thickness factor, you may recall this post I addressed to you a while back at Reply 3 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=43081.msg431153#msg431153

It's quite amazing that you tweaked your value as you progressed so that it is almost exactly what is cited in the above post.

Peter

That's awesome Peter, I'm not sure how you remembered that conversation. That stop at Williamsburg was important as I realized how much I could learn by sampling different pizzerias. I still need to do more of that.

So JKB, how would this be for precision  8)
TF=0.0943141
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Pete-zza on August 26, 2018, 04:53:41 PM
That's awesome Peter, I'm not sure how you remembered that conversation.
Matt,

I remembered that the thickness factor was above 0.09, which surprised me because I was used to hearing a smaller value, so that number stuck with me. I just didn稚 realize until I found my old post how close your number was to the one I posted. Later, I started hearing bigger numbers from Harry.

Peter
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on August 26, 2018, 08:53:09 PM
...I also suspect there's a pattern to my increases, where I reject a new high point every first time I try it, then have to go down and back up. I'm tempted to see if I could chart my TF and cheese amount over time, though I'm not sure if my notes are good enough.


Once I had the idea of charting my TF and cheese amount, I kind of had to do it. But it's not super interesting.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jvp123 on August 26, 2018, 09:04:28 PM
Thanks Norm. I'm using Grande East Coast blend (which is 50/50 wm/ps) and comes pre-shredded. I'd call it a medium shread size. When I used to shred my own, I liked using a potato grater for large shreds as opposed to the small shreds from my box grater.

Here are pics of this last pie pre-bake

Wish I could get grande here in LA.  BTW, are your pies hand stretched all the way, Matt?  And do you dip the dough balls in flour or use bench flour to stretch (or oil)?  They look perfect in every way sitting on the screens with no bench flour apparent.  Even the distribution of sauce and cheese is perfect.

I still struggle to hand stretch my pies uniformly thin.   I'm sure the fact that my dough is higher hydration doesn't help.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on August 26, 2018, 09:20:30 PM
Wish I could get grande here in LA.  BTW, are your pies hand stretched all the way, Matt?  And do you dip the dough balls in flour or use bench flour to stretch (or oil)?  They look perfect in every way sitting on the screens with no bench flour apparent.  Even the distribution of sauce and cheese is perfect.

I still struggle to hand stretch my pies uniformly thin.   I'm sure the fact that my dough is higher hydration doesn't help.

Many thanks for that, but I still struggle quite a bit getting an even stretch. The coldness of the dough this time helped alot, but caused bubbles. My dough was opened it a bit of oil, no flour. I took alot of time making sure it remained a circle before knuckle stretching. Then some of the benefits of a screen came into play. I laid the skin on the screen and broke out the measuring tape. It was about 13.5" and not perfectly circle. With it on the screen I made it a 14" circle. I then took my sweet time topping with sauce and cheese. I would like to top faster, but with the screen i never have a sense of urgency. It took a total of 14 minutes to open the dough, top it and slide it into the oven! (Likely longer than usual because the dough was so cold). Last year I did achieve some pretty round pies launching from peel to stone, so I did have some skills. Hopefully I wont loose it while using the screen.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on August 30, 2018, 09:19:28 PM
...I realized how much I could learn by sampling different pizzerias. I still need to do more of that.


Well, I tried 2 different pizzerias today, link below. I think the quote sums it up:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=53980.0


This experience did a lot to confirm the personal quest that I'm on. As I dial in my own pies exactly where I want them, I can see from these slices that it's absolutely worth it. In the end, it's about one's personal preference. And the only way to have a pie exactly the way you want it, is to make it yourself.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on August 30, 2018, 09:57:57 PM
Your pies look like they blow those joints away!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on September 01, 2018, 08:03:51 PM
I've finally uploaded a video of the pizza sauce I purchased at a pizzeria in Queens. My bake with this sauce (linked below) is what led to me to use a thinner sauce, via strainer, which completely transformed my pies.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=48058.msg520920#msg520920

You can see in the video how thin it is. And how many ingredients are added.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g87S1VYlHNo
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on September 01, 2018, 08:42:24 PM
I've finally uploaded a video of the pizza sauce I purchased at a pizzeria in Queens. My bake with this sauce (linked below) is what led to me to use a thinner sauce, via strainer, which completely transformed my pies.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=48058.msg520920#msg520920

You can see in the video how thin it is. And how many ingredients are added.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g87S1VYlHNo

That's about the consistency I used today and it really is a game changer, definitely was thinking of JPB's "thin but not watery" thread.

I used the whole undrained 28 oz can of whole peeled + basil through a food mill. I think it was spot on. I think the thicker pies we are making now are necessary to really be able to support that juicy sauce.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on September 01, 2018, 08:47:52 PM
That's about the consistency I used today and it really is a game changer, definitely was thinking of JPB's "thin but not watery" thread.

I used the whole undrained 28 oz can of whole peeled + basil through a food mill. I think it was spot on. I think the thicker pies we are making now are necessary to really be able to support that juicy sauce.

Awesome, look forward to seeing the pics  :chef:

Great point about the crust thickness handling the thin sauce. I've been very focused on crust thickness from the perspective of holding up all the cheese I use, but you're right, no way a thin crust would survive the way I sauce.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on September 02, 2018, 08:17:21 PM
Tonight's bake

The good:
- No bubbles in the final product (popped 2 or 3 when opening the dough) after returning to my usual long room temp warm up. I let it warm up for 2.5 hours before opening.
- The first slice was awesome, despite a messy undercrust

The bad:
- Sclafani Crushed (as I was out of 7/11), the first slice was great but as it cooled it tasted very tart, really reminiscent of eating a lemon. And that was with 1/2 tsp sugar in 1.25 cups sauce
- Middle of the pie was soggy - likely too much sauce in the center, too thin crust and not enough bake time. I pulled it at 8 minutes bake because the cheese was done. Need to revisit my temps. Stone temp was 465-475, oven temp 500.
- Pics came out so-so

For next time:
- Up to the TF to at least 0.095
- Less sauce in the center
- Try more basil (full cube)
- Add back a bit more parm (4 tsp in sauce instead of 3)
- Back to the 7/11
- Keep in mind that warm dough stretches fast, don't go over 14"
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on September 02, 2018, 11:01:46 PM
Tonight's bake

The good:
- No bubbles in the final product (popped 2 or 3 when opening the dough) after returning to my usual long room temp warm up. I let it warm up for 2.5 hours before opening.
- The first slice was awesome, despite a messy undercrust

The bad:
- Sclafani Crushed (as I was out of 7/11), the first slice was great but as it cooled it tasted very tart, really reminiscent of eating a lemon. And that was with 1/2 tsp sugar in 1.25 cups sauce
- Middle of the pie was soggy - likely too much sauce in the center, too thin crust and not enough bake time. I pulled it at 8 minutes bake because the cheese was done. Need to revisit my temps. Stone temp was 465-475, oven temp 500.
- Pics came out so-so

For next time:
- Up to the TF to at least 0.095
- Less sauce in the center
- Try more basil (full cube)
- Add back a bit more parm (4 tsp in sauce instead of 3)
- Back to the 7/11
- Keep in mind that warm dough stretches fast, don't go over 14"

Stanislaus is the sh!t.
Yes on little sauce in the center (cheese too, it'll get there)
Fresh basil. How many times do I have to tell you?  :-D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on September 03, 2018, 07:05:53 AM
...
Fresh basil. How many times do I have to tell you?  :-D

I'm stubborn and don't like change  8)

How long will fresh basil last in the fridge? (My basement fridge runs cool.) My wife generally goes food shopping on Monday and I bake on Saturday.

(I have no desire to go shopping on Saturday myself.)

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: HansB on September 03, 2018, 07:57:42 AM
I'm stubborn and don't like change  8)

How long will fresh basil last in the fridge? (My basement fridge runs cool.) My wife generally goes food shopping on Monday and I bake on Saturday.

(I have no desire to go shopping on Saturday myself.)

Around here we can buy a potted basil plant for less that $10. A bit of water every day and you'll have basil all summer.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on September 03, 2018, 08:46:05 AM
I'm stubborn and don't like change  8)

How long will fresh basil last in the fridge? (My basement fridge runs cool.) My wife generally goes food shopping on Monday and I bake on Saturday.

(I have no desire to go shopping on Saturday myself.)

Don't put it in the fridge.  Basil like 60F+.  Slice the end of the stems with a razor blade and put them in a vase with water in a sunny window.   They will probably root themselves.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on September 03, 2018, 08:54:13 AM
Around here we can buy a potted basil plant for less that $10. A bit of water every day and you'll have basil all summer.

This is supermarket basil that I rooted:






Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on September 03, 2018, 09:00:53 AM
2 summers ago I bought a basil plant and put it under a skylight. Within a week it was struggling. If I grow my own I want to 1) have it indoors and 2) have it all year round

Not sure it's possible without lights
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Hermit on September 03, 2018, 09:40:59 AM
If you have trouble rooting in plain water, clonex gel on fresh cut stems in a rapid rooter will make quick work of supermarket basil rooting at home.

https://fifthseasongardening.com/taking-clones-methods-and-products-for-success

Just be sure to use a spray bottle with water to mist the leaves while the clone gets it's roots going.  Spray the leaves a few times a day, watch for leaves wilting, this means they need sprayed with water.  Roots should begin after a week to two weeks, you'll see them poking out of the bottom of the rapid rooter.  Then you can just move the plant to a nice organic soil filled pot and water as normal.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on September 03, 2018, 10:44:44 AM
If you have trouble rooting in plain water, clonex gel on fresh cut stems in a rapid rooter will make quick work of supermarket basil rooting at home.

https://fifthseasongardening.com/taking-clones-methods-and-products-for-success

Just be sure to use a spray bottle with water to mist the leaves while the clone gets it's roots going.  Spray the leaves a few times a day, watch for leaves wilting, this means they need sprayed with water.  Roots should begin after a week to two weeks, you'll see them poking out of the bottom of the rapid rooter.  Then you can just move the plant to a nice organic soil filled pot and water as normal.

And how do you know this?   :-D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Hermit on September 03, 2018, 11:15:33 AM
And how do you know this?   :-D

Overpriced low quality herbs lead me to google for the solution.  BTW, organic soil will absolutely give you a tastier basil than hydroponics.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on September 03, 2018, 11:22:38 AM
Overpriced low quality herbs lead me to google for the solution.  BTW, organic soil will absolutely give you a tastier basil than hydroponics.

I grow my basil in composted horse manure with additional manure tea at regular intervals.  Don't forget to flush.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on September 03, 2018, 11:38:01 AM
Tonight's bake

The good:
- No bubbles in the final product (popped 2 or 3 when opening the dough) after returning to my usual long room temp warm up. I let it warm up for 2.5 hours before opening.
- The first slice was awesome, despite a messy undercrust

The bad:
- Sclafani Crushed (as I was out of 7/11), the first slice was great but as it cooled it tasted very tart, really reminiscent of eating a lemon. And that was with 1/2 tsp sugar in 1.25 cups sauce
- Middle of the pie was soggy - likely too much sauce in the center, too thin crust and not enough bake time. I pulled it at 8 minutes bake because the cheese was done. Need to revisit my temps. Stone temp was 465-475, oven temp 500.
- Pics came out so-so

For next time:
- Up to the TF to at least 0.095
- Less sauce in the center
- Try more basil (full cube)
- Add back a bit more parm (4 tsp in sauce instead of 3)
- Back to the 7/11
- Keep in mind that warm dough stretches fast, don't go over 14"

I think you and I are on the same page for goals.  I've got enough sauce and cheese leftover for another pie.  It's going to be hot, but I think I need to make a pie tomorrow.

EDIT:  Oops forgot to attach my version.  Your melt is better, but mine is bigger.  :-D  :-D :-D :-D

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on September 04, 2018, 05:20:15 PM
Wish me luck!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on September 08, 2018, 07:59:04 PM
I unfortunately have to take a rare weekend off from baking. My update this week is a video my wife took of me slicing my pie last weekend. (She took it in an effort to help her sell some kitchen products, so I was demoing the pizza cutter.) The pie sounded more crispy than it was. Even the first slice was majorly floppy.

Edit: for whatever reason when I first clicked on the link, the playback was blurry. But just moving the cursor back to the video start made it clean up.

Also, my favorite part of this video is probably the beads of orange grease landing on the table  :)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJDCtOEkPN4
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on September 11, 2018, 09:11:25 AM
Tonight's bake

The good:
- No bubbles in the final product (popped 2 or 3 when opening the dough) after returning to my usual long room temp warm up. I let it warm up for 2.5 hours before opening.
- The first slice was awesome, despite a messy undercrust

The bad:
- Sclafani Crushed (as I was out of 7/11), the first slice was great but as it cooled it tasted very tart, really reminiscent of eating a lemon. And that was with 1/2 tsp sugar in 1.25 cups sauce
- Middle of the pie was soggy - likely too much sauce in the center, too thin crust and not enough bake time. I pulled it at 8 minutes bake because the cheese was done. Need to revisit my temps. Stone temp was 465-475, oven temp 500.
- Pics came out so-so

For next time:
- Up to the TF to at least 0.095
- Less sauce in the center
- Try more basil (full cube)
- Add back a bit more parm (4 tsp in sauce instead of 3)
- Back to the 7/11
- Keep in mind that warm dough stretches fast, don't go over 14"
How did you prepare the sauce? Just a strainer?

I too find sclafani too tart, Jersey Fresh is superior imo.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on September 11, 2018, 10:33:34 AM
How did you prepare the sauce? Just a strainer?

I too find sclafani too tart, Jersey Fresh is superior imo.

Yes. Same process that I've been using with 7/11:

Push it through a strainer, resulting in 1.25 cups thin tomato
Add 1/4 tsp evoo, oregano, basil, garlic, salt, sugar
Let sit at room temp a few hours
Add parm just before applying to pizza

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on September 11, 2018, 11:47:57 AM
Yes. Same process that I've been using with 7/11:

Push it through a strainer, resulting in 1.25 cups thin tomato
Add 1/4 tsp evoo, oregano, basil, garlic, salt, sugar
Let sit at room temp a few hours
Add parm just before applying to pizza
Going to do exactly this when I get the chance, thanks for sharing 
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jvp123 on September 11, 2018, 06:23:27 PM
Yes. Same process that I've been using with 7/11:

Push it through a strainer, resulting in 1.25 cups thin tomato
Add 1/4 tsp evoo, oregano, basil, garlic, salt, sugar
Let sit at room temp a few hours
Add parm just before applying to pizza

Matt, Do you have access to their Full Red sauce?  It might be similar to the result you get from straining the 7/11s.  I've been thinking of trying the Full Red and just seasoning it myself.  I think I might like a nice thin pureed sauce. 

Past couple of years I have been using (and liking) the 7/11s and New Jersey Fresh, but looking to explore the smooth, thin side of things
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on September 11, 2018, 07:57:08 PM
Matt, Do you have access to their Full Red sauce?  It might be similar to the result you get from straining the 7/11s.  I've been thinking of trying the Full Red and just seasoning it myself.  I think I might like a nice thin pureed sauce. 

Past couple of years I have been using (and liking) the 7/11s and New Jersey Fresh, but looking to explore the smooth, thin side of things

Funny enough, my wife was at the store last week trying to get me Bonta for my pan pizzas and they didnt have any readily available and offered Full Red...but I turned it down!

The first time I strained 7/11 I also strained Tomato Magic, but liked the thinness of the 7/11 better. Seems counterintuitive to deliberately buy a product with skin, only to strain the skins out. And that the end result is thinner than the skin-free product. But its working for me at this point.

I think thin sauce is key for the melt I'm getting, but there's plenty of ways to get there with various blends of crushed, whole, paste etc. Comes down to personal preference in the end. For me I needed to settle on a tomato (at least temporarily) so I could shift my focus to the seasoning.


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on September 22, 2018, 06:38:43 AM
I was at a local pizzeria last night (not my favorite one) and bought a doughball so that I could weigh it and get a feel for it.

It was 23.75 ounces/673 grams which equates to a TF of 0.093 for a 18" pie.

The dough itself was unremarkable, which I take as a positive sign that my dough is in the right ballpark. It had alot of gas/bubbles. It stretched fine, not really easy or hard (or without thin spots). I'd say given the warmth of it and the bubbly nature I was a little suprised that gravity didn't take over when I knuckle stretched.

The one thing I really disliked is the flour it was covered in. I'm guessing semolina? It was really gritty an unpleasant feeling for me. Touching the dough with that grit was not fun at all.


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hotsawce on September 22, 2018, 01:18:26 PM
This is interesting. I recently purchased a doughball from Joe's and weighed it out (on the same scale, no less) on a paper plate and it was the exact same weight, look, texture.

23.75oz - but it's a 20" pie. I guarantee it. Which is about a 0.075 TF if I recall correctly.

All of the great NY style dough's I've checked out have not been sticky. they aren't overly gaseous but they are well proofed. They press out pretty easily and are not overly elastic.

Personally, I have not been able to get my dough to come out like this. Mine always ends up more tacky or sticky on the surface for some reason....

You're on the right track. Just make sure you adjust TF to 0.075

I was at a local pizzeria last night (not my favorite one) and bought a doughball so that I could weigh it and get a feel for it.

It was 23.75 ounces/673 grams which equates to a TF of 0.093 for a 18" pie.

The dough itself was unremarkable, which I take as a positive sign that my dough is in the right ballpark. It had alot of gas/bubbles. It stretched fine, not really easy or hard (or without thin spots). I'd say given the warmth of it and the bubbly nature I was a little suprised that gravity didn't take over when I knuckle stretched.

The one thing I really disliked is the flour it was covered in. I'm guessing semolina? It was really gritty an unpleasant feeling for me. Touching the dough with that grit was not fun at all.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on September 22, 2018, 02:03:32 PM
This is interesting. I recently purchased a doughball from Joe's and weighed it out (on the same scale, no less) on a paper plate and it was the exact same weight, look, texture.

23.75oz - but it's a 20" pie. I guarantee it. Which is about a 0.075 TF if I recall correctly.

All of the great NY style dough's I've checked out have not been sticky. they aren't overly gaseous but they are well proofed. They press out pretty easily and are not overly elastic.

Personally, I have not been able to get my dough to come out like this. Mine always ends up more tacky or sticky on the surface for some reason....

You're on the right track. Just make sure you adjust TF to 0.075

I used to do 0.07 (Bond, James Bond).  I've been doing 0.085.  Time to thin things down. 0.08.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on September 22, 2018, 04:22:40 PM
This is interesting. I recently purchased a doughball from Joe's and weighed it out (on the same scale, no less) on a paper plate and it was the exact same weight, look, texture.

23.75oz - but it's a 20" pie. I guarantee it. Which is about a 0.075 TF if I recall correctly.

All of the great NY style dough's I've checked out have not been sticky. they aren't overly gaseous but they are well proofed. They press out pretty easily and are not overly elastic.

Personally, I have not been able to get my dough to come out like this. Mine always ends up more tacky or sticky on the surface for some reason....

You're on the right track. Just make sure you adjust TF to 0.075

Could stickiness come from higher hydration? I'm at 54% water and 4% oil. No stickiness. When I used to launch from a peel I didn't put any flour on the peel and just a tiny amount rubbed on the ball pre-stretch.

TF on it's own without formula and workfow doesnt mean much. In my case, TF of .0925 results in a crust way thinner than most of the NY pizzas I buy. My next bake (hopefully tonight) I've increased up to .09625.

But to be clear, I'm not going for a thin slice like I've had in Manhattan (like Sacco or apparently some of the slices at Joe's) I'm doing Queens style.


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on September 22, 2018, 09:08:15 PM
 ;D

Changes:
- Tomato and Cheese were straight from new packages this week
- Increased TF to .09625, really liked it, but may try .095
- Fresh basil in sauce (4 small leaves cut up), it was awesome, but I should reduce it a bit as I don't want it too prevalent
- A bit more parm

Next time:
- Try TF of 0.095
- Small reduction in Basil, and maybe cut smaller?
- A bit more oregano
- Full 3/4 cup sauce as the increased TF should handle it

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Essen1 on September 22, 2018, 09:32:41 PM
Could stickiness come from higher hydration?

Most likely. The semo is used to draw out some of that moisture and to add a little crispness without compromising the overall texture/crust structure.

I use tons of semo as bench flour. Gives the pie a really nice appearance and crunch post bake.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Essen1 on September 22, 2018, 09:33:40 PM
;D

Changes:
- Tomato and Cheese were straight from new packages this week
- Increased TF to .09625, really liked it, but may try .095
- Fresh basil in sauce (4 small leaves cut up), it was awesome, but I should reduce it a bit as I don't want it too prevelant
- A bit more parm

Next time:
- Try TF of 0.095
- Small reduction in Basil, and maybe cut smaller?
- A bit more oregano
- Full 3/4 cup sauce as the increased TF should handle it

Looks good.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jvp123 on September 23, 2018, 03:57:43 AM
Looks good.
^^^
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on September 23, 2018, 01:40:00 PM
Very nice New York pizza Matt, love that slice profile! You got that golden brown undercrust down pat too.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: deb415611 on September 23, 2018, 06:50:53 PM
^^^

me too
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on September 24, 2018, 05:18:41 AM

- Try TF of 0.095

Thinner.

0.094999999
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on September 24, 2018, 11:38:49 AM
Thinner.

0.094999999

Well at least your fresh basil comments may prove to be useful...can't win them all   ;)

I previously outlined my approach to making changes here:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=51924.msg541541#msg541541


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Essen1 on September 24, 2018, 11:05:45 PM
Well at least your fresh basil comments may prove to be useful...can't win them all   ;)

I previously outlined my approach to making changes here:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=51924.msg541541#msg541541

I wonder what an increase/decrease in your "TF" equates to in a single dough ball weight?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on September 25, 2018, 06:55:26 AM
I wonder what an increase/decrease in your "TF" equates to in a single dough ball weight?

Last week I increased 10 grams to 420 grams for 14". I mix 500 grams of dough each week then cut away the excess to get to whatever weight I'm using that week.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on September 29, 2018, 08:42:16 PM
This pie was almost exactly what I've been trying for all these years  :chef:

Changes:
- Reduction in fresh basil in sauce. One medium sized leaf cut into small pieces with a scissor
- Small increase in oregano
- TF down slightly to 0.095. Note, however, that the first slice was absolutely amazing. While this slice was the hottest, it was also a bit thinner than the rest of the slices. (I do think that it was the temp that made it so special.)
- Small increase in sauce amount to a slightly heaping 3/4 cup. A lot of sauce is key. (Though I tried not to put too much in the center.)

For next time:
- Maybe another small reduction in basil
- Can consider adding more parm on half the pie
- Don't mess around with taking so many pictures as I want to keep the pie hot

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on September 29, 2018, 09:23:05 PM
This pie was almost exactly what I've been trying for all these years  :chef:
What a great feeling that must be!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on September 29, 2018, 09:32:08 PM
What a great feeling that must be!

It is indeed! I had thought it could be bittersweet as it's kindof like a quest coming to an end. But it's not like that at all. Instead I'm really looking forward to eating my next pie. And of course I'm going to keep making changes. I wonder how many times I've previously claimed victory....

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jvp123 on September 29, 2018, 09:35:32 PM
Congrats on the NY slice!  :chef:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Jackitup on September 29, 2018, 10:32:47 PM
It is indeed! I had thought it could be bittersweet as it's kindof like a quest coming to an end. But it's not like that at all. Instead I'm really looking forward to eating my next pie. And of course I'm going to keep making changes. I wonder how many times I've previously claimed victory....

I've said before, I'll say it again, we're ALL kitchen junkies "chasing the dragon" for jussssssssst a leeeeeeeetle bit better than the last time. Then you find yourself thinking, remember when it came out like this, or that way?! Why I thought to go back to an old formula from back in my early days posting here!
Will be trying it out tomorrow, an old cracker crust
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on September 30, 2018, 12:40:16 AM
Like the doctors say: the perfect is the enemy of the good.


We all do it. It used to drive me nuts watching my dad do it, now I am as bad as he was.  ;D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on September 30, 2018, 06:05:28 AM
I've said before, I'll say it again, we're ALL kitchen junkies "chasing the dragon" for jussssssssst a leeeeeeeetle bit better than the last time...

Like the doctors say: the perfect is the enemy of the good.


We all do it. It used to drive me nuts watching my dad do it, now I am as bad as he was.  ;D

How do professional chefs avoid this? Or maybe they don't? I assume many of them grow up experimenting with food, then do it as a full time career. But somehow they set a recipe in stone for restaurants? I guess if you have no choice you get it "done"?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: deb415611 on September 30, 2018, 06:48:04 AM
beautiful.... your pies have inspired me, NY dough proofing today.  If I end up woth anything close to yours I'll be happy
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on October 03, 2018, 01:49:28 PM
Love that melt where the sauce herbs mingle through to flavor the pie, just like Frank G said!
Matt, really nice job!

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on October 06, 2018, 07:06:52 PM
For my tastes and preferences, this pie was basically perfect  :chef: 

No material changes from last week. Slightly less fresh basil in the sauce, and the leaf was cut into smaller pieces.

My wife had a couple slices for the first time in a while. She found the crust "too thin". (A native NYer saying my TF of 0.095 was thin. It really is thin though.) But she's also not used to my ratios of heavy sauce and cheese. Her loss!

I think the only thing left for me to do with this Queens style is increase the size to 16", which is the largest that will fit in my oven. (I may play with the TF just a bit too.)

Early evening bake this week meant some natural light helped improve the color in the photos (on my laptop atleast...The color looks bad on my phone. I just realized I didn't flip over to custom white balance too.)

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on October 06, 2018, 07:27:10 PM
Sweet - 100% NY slices
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: HansB on October 06, 2018, 07:54:58 PM
Wow!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on October 06, 2018, 08:03:55 PM
Badass melt!!

I agree with you on the TF, I'm thinking of trying .11 to see how my slices taste more filling.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Hermit on October 06, 2018, 09:46:32 PM
 ^^^ looks great Matt!  How much sauce and cheese did this beauty have?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: sodface on October 06, 2018, 09:59:14 PM
Quote
My wife had a couple slices for the first time in a while.

 :-\

I know the feeling.  People think it's strange that I would eat pizza basically once a day given half a chance, I think it's strange that they wouldn't.  :-D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jvp123 on October 06, 2018, 10:15:02 PM
Wow!

 ^^^
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on October 06, 2018, 10:15:41 PM
:-\

I know the feeling.  People think it's strange that I would eat pizza basically once a day given half a chance, I think it's strange that they wouldn't.  :-D
I think my record is 7 meals in a row when I was in my teens: Friday dinner through Sunday dinner, every meal. Could have gone more but we were out.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on October 07, 2018, 05:18:01 AM
I'm with you guys. I never went 7 meals in a row, but at the start of college I had at least one slice a day for 37 consecutive days. I intentionally broke the streak because I wanted to stop counting. (Then went another 25-30 days.) The dining hall was really a thing of beauty..

Once a week for me now

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on October 07, 2018, 05:20:20 AM
^^^ looks great Matt!  How much sauce and cheese did this beauty have?

Thanks Hermit. My usual. 14" pie, TF 0.095, 3/4 cup thin sauce (crushed tomato pushed through a strainer), 9oz of 50/50 mozz.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on October 07, 2018, 05:22:45 AM
Badass melt!!

I agree with you on the TF, I'm thinking of trying .11 to see how my slices taste more filling.

Thanks Ryan. So you're agreeing with my wife  ;)

I'll post more regarding TF later today.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on October 07, 2018, 07:10:22 AM
Matt, I'm just crusising through tyour thread and was looking at a sauced pie..so pretty by the way...Are you thinking your strained sauce with water at all? My Sclafani for example seems much thicker out of the can or buzzed..
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on October 07, 2018, 07:30:33 AM
Matt, I'm just crusising through tyour thread and was looking at a sauced pie..so pretty by the way...Are you thinking your strained sauce with water at all? My Sclafani for example seems much thicker out of the can or buzzed..

Hey Jersey, no water to thin it. I do add 1/4 tsp EVOO to 1.25 cups of strained tomato, but that doesn't do too much. I actually tried Sclafani Crushed a few bakes ago. After straining it, it had my usual consistency. The strainer is key. I remember putting it in a blender previously, and it never became smooth.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on October 07, 2018, 07:43:50 AM
I like the idea of putting some good oil in the sauce - I would have to make two batches since my wife avoids oil but I'll bet it adds good flavor and a nice mouth feel - what brand do you like. I only use / buy CA Olive Ranch smooth and buttery - I have tried so many brands through the years and they can be so different. The COR buttery has never let me down...
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on October 07, 2018, 08:25:08 AM
I like the idea of putting some good oil in the sauce - I would have to make two batches since my wife avoids oil but I'll bet it adds good flavor and a nice mouth feel - what brand do you like. I only use / buy CA Olive Ranch smooth and buttery - I have tried so many brands through the years and they can be so different. The COR buttery has never let me down...

I never really tried different oils. I'm not sure it would make a huge difference in the amount I'm using. I use Costco's signature organic (pic below), which I do like better than the Filippo Berio I had been using.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on October 07, 2018, 10:01:12 AM
Thanks Matt and Norm..that's the same oil I often use..really good and a great price
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Essen1 on October 07, 2018, 11:00:51 PM
For my tastes and preferences, this pie was basically perfect  :chef: 

No material changes from last week. Slightly less fresh basil in the sauce, and the leaf was cut into smaller pieces.

My wife had a couple slices for the first time in a while. She found the crust "too thin". (A native NYer saying my TF of 0.095 was thin. It really is thin though.) But she's also not used to my ratios of heavy sauce and cheese. Her loss!

I think the only thing left for me to do with this Queens style is increase the size to 16", which is the largest that will fit in my oven. (I may play with the TF just a bit too.)

Early evening bake this week meant some natural light helped improve the color in the photos (on my laptop atleast...The color looks bad on my phone. I just realized I didn't flip over to custom white balance too.)

Don't keep us hanging in suspense...how many tiny basil pieces did you take out in order to arrive at your current sauce verdict?  8)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on October 08, 2018, 12:14:56 AM



I'm with you guys. I never went 7 meals in a row, but at the start of college I had at least one slice a day for 37 consecutive days. I intentionally broke the streak because I wanted to stop counting. (Then went another 25-30 days.) The dining hall was really a thing of beauty..

Once a week for me now


Junior high we went to the pizzeria 5 days a week for lunch.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on October 10, 2018, 06:28:05 PM
Thanks Matt and Norm..that's the same oil I often use..really good and a great price
Kirkland EVOO is bottled on the same line as Pompeian Oil.  The only imported oil blended in the USA.
 
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on October 11, 2018, 06:30:50 PM
I picked up a doughball from another local pizzeria to weigh it. Last time Pizzeria B's weighed 673 grams. This one from Pizzeria A weighed a whopping 798 grams! The corresponding TF for an 18" pie is 0.11. I am mindful of the previous comments that some pizzerias make slice pies that are 20" (in which case the TF would be 0.09). I don't think that's the case here, but I'm not 100% certain.

I'm not really a fan of their pizza, but they had one pie in the case that I couldn't take my eyes off of. I asked one of the guys if it was a vodka pie. A huge smile came to his face and he said "yeah, a vodka margherita". You can sort of get a sense of the thickness of the slice in the picture.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on October 13, 2018, 08:37:21 PM
Slight increase in TF (0.09625/420 grams..and yes it was noticeable). I'm having a very difficult time deciding on my TF of choice. This thicker pie was definitely closer to a typical pizzeria - it had a more familiar chew and the ratios were more mainstream. And after a slice I wrote down that the increased TF was great. But...it loses a bit of the decadence that comes with the heavy sauce, heavy cheese, but thin crust pie. I'm splitting hairs, as both versions taste great to me  :chef:

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on October 13, 2018, 09:36:49 PM
Back when I played a lot of golf, the differnece in weight between two golf clubs one swingweight apart was said to be equal to the weight of a paper dollar bill. In other words, a 5-iron with a swingweight of D5 was heavier than an identical 5-iron with a D4 swingweight by about as much as a dollar bill weighs.


So you have room to play with your TF; you池e qualified and entitled.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on October 14, 2018, 10:48:15 AM
Wow look at that melt!!  :drool:

You're crushing it buddy!

Are you still doing straight milled 7/11's for sauce or are you adding any heavy components in?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on October 14, 2018, 11:02:52 AM
Wow look at that melt!!  :drool:

You're crushing it buddy!

Are you still doing straight milled 7/11's for sauce or are you adding any heavy components in?

 ^^^ - sauce amount looks perfect too.....
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Hermit on October 14, 2018, 11:37:51 AM
Matt this may be a stupid question but is this baked in your home oven?  You are in the zone, perfect stretch and melt!   Very inspiring  :drool: 

How much of that decadence did you feel was lost in the thicker slice?  I've been around 0.085TF but wanna try moving it up to see if I can maintain the bake on top.  The wife doesnt eat much pizza but likes the thicker slice.  I'm hoping to make a compromise but keep the bake and flavor profile of NY style.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: julius_sanders on October 14, 2018, 11:56:31 AM
Anyone knows which kind of Mozzarella they use on the vodka pie you can see on one of these fotos? I already saw that in videos where they cut this kind of cheese on the pizza, from the firmness it looked like low moisture but from the color it looks more like fresh Mozzarella?

Thanks!

btw: your pizza looks delicious :)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on October 14, 2018, 12:56:19 PM
love your latest! I've settled back to .07 tf, something closer to ny elite than street slice. I really wish I could experiment more but btw travel and trying to keep the weight off, I've settled into a bake every 2-3 weeks.

matt, I tried the detroit pizza spot that hans reviewed, it was really good and not that far from penn...
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on October 14, 2018, 01:32:08 PM
love your latest! I've settled back to .07 tf, something closer to ny elite than street slice. I really wish I could experiment more but btw travel and trying to keep the weight off, I've settled into a bake every 2-3 weeks.

matt, I tried the detroit pizza spot that hans reviewed, it was really good and not that far from penn...

I've got a soft spot for a thin .07TF slice too but I always try to eat a whole pie when they are that thin!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on October 14, 2018, 04:16:44 PM
Anyone knows which kind of Mozzarella they use on the vodka pie you can see on one of these fotos? I already saw that in videos where they cut this kind of cheese on the pizza, from the firmness it looked like low moisture but from the color it looks more like fresh Mozzarella?

Thanks!

btw: your pizza looks delicious :)

Ryan (inverted) has mentioned a kind of low moisture fresh mozz  for NY-Margheritas. Ryan, can you elaborate?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on October 14, 2018, 04:31:07 PM
...
matt, I tried the detroit pizza spot that hans reviewed, it was really good and not that far from penn...

That's Lions, Tigers and Squares on 23rd & 8th. Will be easy for me to get to on the E train then walk up to Penn (or back on the E). I'm interested to try it. Thanks QD


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on October 14, 2018, 04:36:06 PM
...
Are you still doing straight milled 7/11's for sauce or are you adding any heavy components in?

No changes, which I know is unusual for me, but I really like this sauce! 7/11 strained, a tiny bit of EVOO. Then lots of herbs, seasoning and parm.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on October 14, 2018, 04:39:50 PM
Ryan (inverted) has mentioned a kind of low moisture fresh mozz  for NY-Margheritas. Ryan, can you elaborate?

It's what they use on some of the coal pies, grandma's, and NY margherita's. It's not wet and slimy, it's easier to handle - it comes in a log that looks like all the others but its designated "fresh" mozzarella.

https://youtu.be/27MgNqQ59Ac?t=129 (https://youtu.be/27MgNqQ59Ac?t=129)

Here's a pic from Pizza Today https://www.pizzatoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Grandmapie_retouch.jpg

I know Polly-O makes some, Harry had mentioned a few other brands but I can't recall. It's not easy to find, I found a log once from Grocery Outlet, that's my only experience with it. It melts a bit differently than regular fresh mozz or regular whole milk low moisture pizza cheese.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on October 14, 2018, 04:45:41 PM
It's what they use on some of the coal pies, grandma's, and NY margherita's. It's not wet and slimy, it's easier to handle - it comes in a log that looks like all the others but its designated "fresh" mozzarella.
...

Awesome, I'll file this away for when I get around to NY Margs. I always had wet soupy pies when I've tried regular fresh mozz. I can ask the cashNcarry about it.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: julius_sanders on October 14, 2018, 05:10:02 PM
It's what they use on some of the coal pies, grandma's, and NY margherita's. It's not wet and slimy, it's easier to handle - it comes in a log that looks like all the others but its designated "fresh" mozzarella.

https://youtu.be/27MgNqQ59Ac?t=129 (https://youtu.be/27MgNqQ59Ac?t=129)

Here's a pic from Pizza Today https://www.pizzatoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Grandmapie_retouch.jpg

I know Polly-O makes some, Harry had mentioned a few other brands but I can't recall. It's not easy to find, I found a log once from Grocery Outlet, that's my only experience with it. It melts a bit differently than regular fresh mozz or regular whole milk low moisture pizza cheese.

ok thanks a lot. I was wondering, because I never saw this kind of Mozzarella here in Germany, but seems also not so easy to find in the US. I saw it already in so many videos (from Lucali, Johns, Di Fara...)

alright, back to the topic, I want your pizza Matt, now!  ;D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on October 14, 2018, 05:19:31 PM
ok thanks a lot. I was wondering, because I never saw this kind of Mozzarella here in Germany, but seems also not so easy to find in the US. I saw it already in so many videos (from Lucali, Johns, Di Fara...)

alright, back to the topic, I want your pizza Matt, now!  ;D

Yeah it's in a lot of NY videos, you can tell by the color as it has a very white melt. I think it's mostly available in NYC as a food service product.

The closest alternative I can think of in the US is the 1 lb brick of Polly-O WMLM, not sure about Germany but I would look for the dryest fresh mozzarella you can find, and maybe air dry it in the fridge a bit.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on October 14, 2018, 07:31:32 PM
Matt this may be a stupid question but is this baked in your home oven?  You are in the zone, perfect stretch and melt!   Very inspiring  :drool: 

How much of that decadence did you feel was lost in the thicker slice?  I've been around 0.085TF but wanna try moving it up to see if I can maintain the bake on top.  The wife doesnt eat much pizza but likes the thicker slice.  I'm hoping to make a compromise but keep the bake and flavor profile of NY style.

Thanks Hermit, and everyone else for your likes and kind words.

Yes, my pies are baked in my kitchen oven at 500 degrees. I'm putting the hand-made Queens style mesh screen that I acquired onto a stone that I deliberately pre-heat to only 460-470 (though I may experiment with heating it up more).

It's hard to say the amount of decadence lost with the thicker crust, but a noticeable amount for sure. But a few things to note:
The actual melt and sauce combo wasnt impacted. The difference is in the overall 'noticeability' of the crust, if that makes sense. It's personal preference, and I suspect I'm on the sloppy end of the spectrum. I'd probably be fine just eating sauce and cheese with a fork. And if/when I end up with a soggy crust, for me that only adds to the decadence. I do like how a 'proper' crust holds up though. It has me thinking that maybe with the thicker crust I can add even more sauce  >:D

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norma427 on October 15, 2018, 07:08:01 AM
Ryan (inverted) has mentioned a kind of low moisture fresh mozz  for NY-Margheritas. Ryan, can you elaborate?


Matt,

Could it be the Losurdo Fresh Mozzarella Logs?

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=42294.msg422738#msg422738

Your pizzas sure are looking delicious!  :chef: :pizza: :pizza:

Norma


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: deb415611 on October 15, 2018, 07:20:24 AM
Slight increase in TF (0.09625/420 grams..and yes it was noticeable). I'm having a very difficult time deciding on my TF of choice. This thicker pie was definitely closer to a typical pizzeria - it had a more familiar chew and the ratios were more mainstream. And after a slice I wrote down that the increased TF was great. But...it loses a bit of the decadence that comes with the heavy sauce, heavy cheese, but thin crust pie. I'm splitting hairs, as both versions taste great to me  :chef:

awesome (as usual)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on October 15, 2018, 01:53:08 PM
That's Lions, Tigers and Squares





Oh my!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: HansB on October 15, 2018, 02:14:04 PM
That's Lions, Tigers and Squares on 23rd & 8th. Will be easy for me to get to on the E train then walk up to Penn (or back on the E). I'm interested to try it. Thanks QD

Do try it...very good when I had it. Lucali finally tonight...
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Jon in Albany on October 15, 2018, 02:30:16 PM
Do try it...very good when I had it. Lucali finally tonight...
Try the pepperoni at Lucali. I thought the pepperoni was delicious.  I remember looking it up after our visit and shipping was crazy. It's basically a Brooklyn only purchase.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on October 15, 2018, 04:53:36 PM
Matt, Norma... The Losurdo logs are the same as RD Supremo logs. Losurdo told me they make them for RD..same stuff. It's very good
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norma427 on October 15, 2018, 05:04:47 PM
Matt, Norma... The Losurdo logs are the same as RD Supremo logs. Losurdo told me they make them for RD..same stuff. It's very good

Thanks Bill!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on October 18, 2018, 09:13:46 PM
...You are in the zone, perfect stretch..


I wouldn't say perfect, but thanks! Seeing this comment again got me thinking. The evenness may have been helped by me stretching it most of the way to full size while still on the table (including an edge stretch). Very little of the stretch was over my knuckles. Sometimes I rely almost entirely on the knuckle stretch, which is probably not a good thing. (At least at my skill level.)

Edit: I'm sure my thought above was at least partially triggered by comments Norm made on another thread suggesting to open the dough to 75% of the full size before picking up. It's cool how the forum works.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Hermit on October 18, 2018, 09:17:34 PM
I wouldn't say perfect, but thanks! Seeing this comment again got me thinking. The evenness may have been helped by me stretching it most of the way to full size while still on the table (including an edge stretch). Very little of the stretch was over my knuckles. Sometimes I rely almost entirely on the knuckle stretch, which is probably not a good thing.

I'll have to give that a shot.  I'm always doing the knuckle stretch and despite everything I do I end up over stretching a part in the middle and bam that's it  :-\  So much gets thrown off with an uneven stretch.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on October 20, 2018, 08:32:51 PM
My first 16" NY pizza  :chef:

(Up from 14")

The components were the same as usual, but obviously in larger quantities.
Dough - 549 grams or TF of .09625, probably good, but hard to be sure given the stretch issue noted below
Sauce -  1 cup, looked exactly the same as my old usual on the bare skin
Mozz - 13.5 oz - good. In preparation I calculated 12 oz, but when seeing it on the dressed pie it was clearly not enough, so I added 1.5 oz more. Having the pics of all my pies pre bake posted here are really helping me get a feel for what the pie should look like. I wasn't expecting that.

It was my first time stretching 16", and I overshot to probably around 17". My oven only fits 16", so I ended up folding the rim in a bit in a couple places. There was one obvious thin spot. I ended up eating that slice, and I missed having more crust. This goes against my comments from last week about the extra decadence of the thin slice.

The melt actually seemed to be improved. It's hard to put my finger on it, but I think having a bigger intermediate ring between the center of the pie and rim helps. It was a little whiter than my usual melt in that spot, and it had some chewiness to the cheese which I like at times.

And of course, the larger slice looked better on the plate.

Changes for next time:
Don't over stretch
Increase stone temp by pre-heating with the oven hotter than 450, probably 475
Probably don't reduce oil in dough yet, given I'm playing with stone temp
Possibly add a little more oregano to sauce
Edit: likely need to add 2 tbs sauce to achieve the same sauce/cheese ratio as my 14" pies
May try fresh garlic in the sauce

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on October 20, 2018, 09:08:59 PM
Very nice juicy slices  :drool:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Hermit on October 20, 2018, 09:45:36 PM
 ^^^ :drool:

Matt I tried what I thought were your ratios and now see I was under, I'll have to try 13.5.  The 12 was cheesy but not overly.  The slices get heavy!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on October 21, 2018, 03:07:39 AM
Grande is still working on a low moisture fresh mozzarella. I was told it was gonna be done by March of 2018, but was delayed because they couldn't get the color white enough and they dont use any additives or coloring. Cant wait to try it when it does come out.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on October 21, 2018, 05:23:31 AM
You're nailing the melt.  I'm going to be lazy and ask.   What cheese are you using?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on October 21, 2018, 06:17:22 AM
You're nailing the melt.  I'm going to be lazy and ask.   What cheese are you using?

Cheers. Grande East Coast blend. But the melt really took off when I started straining the crushed tomato for my sauce. The thin smooth sauce makes a dramatic difference. I also dont skimp on the sauce (or the cheese).

Bake is obviously important for the melt too. I'm using the hand-made mesh screens that several pizzerias in Queens use. My stone is only 450-470 degrees (though I plan to increase the temp next bake). Oven temp 500. Bake time 8:30, with the first 7 minutes on the screen, last 1:30 directly on the stone.


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on October 21, 2018, 07:44:19 AM
Cheers. Grande East Coast blend. But the melt really took off when I started straining the crushed tomato for my sauce. The thin smooth sauce makes a dramatic difference. I also dont skimp on the sauce (or the cheese).

Bake is obviously important for the melt too. I'm using the hand-made mesh screens that several pizzerias in Queens use. My stone is only 450-470 degrees (though I plan to increase the temp next bake). Oven temp 500. Bake time 8:30, with the first 7 minutes on the screen, last 1:30 directly on the stone.


I love ECB. 

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on October 21, 2018, 09:18:49 AM

I love ECB.

Me too. I've been very happy with it since switching over from 100% whole milk. My pizzas have changed alot since then, though, so I am curious to try whole milk again at some point. But I suspect it'll be too rich.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on October 27, 2018, 08:34:45 PM
This one started off ok and a bit underwhelming, then turned into a great reminder of what I've been chasing the last several years.

Like a pizzeria, it had a white-ish melt and was good and hot.....BUT, I like orange grease and my pizza closer to room temp! This pie got so much better as it cooled, both in grease formation and certainly in overall flavor. I simply don't get the sauce flavor when its very hot.

Changes from last time:
Added 2 TBS more sauce
Increased stone temp to 485-505
Scheduling conflict led to a 1-day CF instead of 2. I think this ultimately led to loads of ugly bubbles.
Instead over overstretching to 17", I understretched to 15", then added the final inch while on the screen. It was still inconsistently stretched.


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on October 27, 2018, 09:19:08 PM
Matt those slices look awesome  :drool: love when they spill over on the plate like that, that's how you know its a juicer!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on October 28, 2018, 05:41:36 PM
The more I think about it, the more I think a 16" pie bakes differently than 14". I'm not sure, why or exactly how.

I think I need more sauce boil. I may move from the screen to the stone a minute earlier next bake.

Although, my first 16" bake looks better than this last one. Now I'm wondering if the bubbles were the problem. They would've made the cheese extra thick over the rest of the pie which may have messed things up.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on October 30, 2018, 10:25:13 PM
The more I think about it, the more I think a 16" pie bakes differently than 14". I'm not sure, why or exactly how.

I think I need more sauce boil. I may move from the screen to the stone a minute earlier next bake.

Although, my first 16" bake looks better than this last one. Now I'm wondering if the bubbles were the problem. They would've made the cheese extra thick over the rest of the pie which may have messed things up.

They definitely bake different. Wait till you make a proper 20" slice pie with your recipe. Then you'll be fully realized  ;D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on October 31, 2018, 11:58:25 AM
Amore in Flushing! Have video of a pie being topped. And a doughball and container of sauce on my lap as I type. Details later!


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on October 31, 2018, 02:06:54 PM
Amore in Flushing! Have video of a pie being topped. And a doughball and container of sauce on my lap as I type. Details later!

Wow that'a a juicer!! Can't wait to hear more about that SAUCE!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Wushuliu on October 31, 2018, 04:26:36 PM
These pics bring tears to my eyes... :drool:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on October 31, 2018, 08:51:13 PM
Amore Pizzeria did not disappoint. It's a very saucy pie, with loads of crisp out of the oven, and I can see why many people think it's one of the best in NYC. Like always, I learned a few things, and have one key takeaway for my own pizzas.

As I continue to nail down the flavors of my pizza to my individual taste, it's not surprising that I'm finding pizzeria pizzas generally lacking in some of the flavors I seek. In the case of Amore, it didn't have the amount of herb flavor I really look for. The sauce had a nice tomato flavor, a strong amount of pepper, a bit of garlic, and other subtleties, but nothing in your face. Really no noticeable amount of oregano or basil. I tasted a bit of romano, but again it was subtle.

When tasting the sauce raw (I watched them ladle the sauce directly from the prep station into a container for me), it confirmed that it was very peppery. It tasted like whole peeled tomato. It was thin and fairly smooth. Similar in texture to my sauce. It had some seeds, lots of very small specs, that look black, but I think many are actually green. I did find a whole basil leaf, but don't know whether it was added to the sauce or was from the can of tomato.

I heard from someone that they had an inconsistent experience with a couple slices. Given this and that I generally don't prefer re-heated slices as I don't favor crispy slices and believe melt is (almost) everything, I decided to order a fresh large pie. At 11:20am it was no problem to get a pie and a table for me and my wife. Though this place gets very busy, and the oven was fully loaded by 11:55.

The fresh pie came out of the oven with a ton of crisp. The slice cracked when folded. I suspect that most NYers like crisp and a hot slice. It was good, but for me, once I got to the second slice, the pie really shined. The crust softened a bit, and the cooled down sauce and cheese melded into that beautifully decadent flavor mix I love. But again, a little more in-your-face herbs would've put the pie over the top for me.

The crust was good overall. The rim was crisp and flat. You can see the flatness of the rim pre-bake in the video. The doughball I purchased weighed 614 grams (TF of 0.085 for 18". I'm very surprised its so low given the amount of sauce and cheese on this pie. Its the lightest doughball I've purchased thus far). It felt beautiful to hold. And it felt light. The smell wasn't very strong, but it was different than the yeasty smell of my dough (and some of the other doughballs I've purchased). Unfortunately I don't know what sourdough smells like. But could see describing this smell as sour.

**Key takeaway - while tomato was the dominant flavor of this pizza, perhaps the second most noticeable flavor was char from the undercrust. This is something I don't have at all when I bake to a golden brown using the mesh screen and low stone temp. This pizzeria is using the same mesh screens. I watched them undock mostly baked pies onto the deck, but I don't know for how long it stays on the stone. I also think they may have had some raw flour on the dough from opening. A couple hours later I smelled the undercrust of a room temp slice. It had a fairly strong smell of the char. This is something I will experiment with to see if I like adding a bit of char flavor to my pies.

Overall, a great experience. I'm happy I was able to take a day off work for Halloween, and have this pizza experience. Pics and videos to follow across the next couple posts.



 
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on October 31, 2018, 08:51:36 PM
Video of the pizza being topped. Not the best camera work, but you can see the amount of sauce and cheese. Both solid amounts. And the flatness of the rim.

(For whatever reason, when I watch this on my phone, to get this in HD I have to start the video then rewind it and restart. Otherwise it's very pixelated.)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy76ejppe-8
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on October 31, 2018, 08:51:47 PM
Pics and video of the sauce

https://youtu.be/awPPPvj7BOc

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Hermit on October 31, 2018, 10:22:43 PM
 Thanks for posting all this Matt!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on November 01, 2018, 12:06:34 AM
Pics and video of the sauce

https://youtu.be/awPPPvj7BOc

You think there is paste in that? Does look super tomatoey
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 01, 2018, 07:43:04 AM
You think there is paste in that? Does look super tomatoey

It tasted like whole peeled tomato and there were seeds. But it wasnt as watery as I'd expect from 100% whole peeled. So if I had to guess, I'd say yes, a thinned down paste or heavy puree was used in addition to whole peeled.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on November 01, 2018, 08:00:34 AM
Is the first photo in post 293 the sauce you bought?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 01, 2018, 09:14:12 AM
Is the first photo in post 293 the sauce you bought?

Yes, the photos and video in that post are the sauce I bought

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on November 01, 2018, 12:50:19 PM
When are you going to bake with that sauce?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on November 01, 2018, 01:15:13 PM
John, why ask that, are you texting him from your car - are you trying to see if you can get to his house in time for a slice  :-D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 01, 2018, 02:15:28 PM
When are you going to bake with that sauce?

I'm leaning towards not baking with it. I plan to bake on Saturday, so it would be several days old. And I'm not sure how much I'd learn by baking with it. You may recall that I baked with a pizzeria sauce previously, and it was a great experience as it led me to start using a strained sauce. But 3+ day old sauce with similar thickness to mine but missing the amount of herbs I like will just be disappointing.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on November 01, 2018, 04:05:59 PM
Great info Matt! It looks like there is a paste component to me just judging by that rich red color, reminds me of when I was mixing extra heavy puree with 7-11.

I know exactly what you mean about that char flavor, it's one thing my bakes have been missing but I'd have to go back to smaller pizzas to really achieve it which doesn't really fill my NY style void. I've tried small stoned baked pies and I just don't get the same pie when I go smaller, if anything small pizzas make me want to bake a lot hotter at like 650-700F.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Wushuliu on November 01, 2018, 04:11:22 PM
Cheers. Grande East Coast blend. But the melt really took off when I started straining the crushed tomato for my sauce. The thin smooth sauce makes a dramatic difference. I also dont skimp on the sauce (or the cheese).

Bake is obviously important for the melt too. I'm using the hand-made mesh screens that several pizzerias in Queens use. My stone is only 450-470 degrees (though I plan to increase the temp next bake). Oven temp 500. Bake time 8:30, with the first 7 minutes on the screen, last 1:30 directly on the stone.

Just want to say I made a couple pies last night, taking some cues from your approach. I upped the oil to 3%, 56% Hydration, and strained my sauce (Bianco DiNapoli Crushed). Cheese is Galbani Premio. 6hr. RT dough.

The pies came out terrific. Dough was easy to stretch and more integrity than my previous tries (still new at this). Sauce consistency made it so much easier to spread out. Premio melt is awesome with great stretch, but I tried about 8-9oz and that was a little too much cheese for a 14". Still tasted awesome but was more like a NY w/Xtra cheese pie.

The sauce straining really is a winner. Only the flavor was lacking, so now I need to figure out the right ratios of seasoning. How much salt and sugar have you been using?

Thanks for this great thread!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jvp123 on November 01, 2018, 05:55:13 PM
I've been to that pizzeria - definitely a great example of the new york slice! :drool:  I've been meaning to get my sauce more like a puree - perhaps running it through the mill.  Will try it soon.

Also want to try using my screen one of these days too - been afraid my bottom won't cook with the pizza on there LOL!


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 01, 2018, 06:12:21 PM
Great info Matt! It looks like there is a paste component to me just judging by that rich red color, reminds me of when I was mixing extra heavy puree with 7-11.
...


Thanks Ryan. Could be. But the color to me was similar to 7/11. It could've been a crushed tomato that was blended. Its hard for me to guess.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 01, 2018, 06:21:20 PM
...
I know exactly what you mean about that char flavor, it's one thing my bakes have been missing but I'd have to go back to smaller pizzas to really achieve it which doesn't really fill my NY style void...

Thanks for this Ryan. I may start a separate thread just on this topic. Though I'd be happy for other people's thoughts on this thread too.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 01, 2018, 06:22:44 PM
I've been to that pizzeria - definitely a great example of the new york slice! :drool:  I've been meaning to get my sauce more like a puree - perhaps running it through the mill.  Will try it soon.

Also want to try using my screen one of these days too - been afraid my bottom won't cook with the pizza on there LOL!

Definitely try the mill!! (Screen is optional...maybe... :D)


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 01, 2018, 06:31:05 PM
Just want to say I made a couple pies last night, taking some cues from your approach. I upped the oil to 3%, 56% Hydration, and strained my sauce (Bianco DiNapoli Crushed). Cheese is Galbani Premio. 6hr. RT dough.

The pies came out terrific. Dough was easy to stretch and more integrity than my previous tries (still new at this). Sauce consistency made it so much easier to spread out. Premio melt is awesome with great stretch, but I tried about 8-9oz and that was a little too much cheese for a 14". Still tasted awesome but was more like a NY w/Xtra cheese pie.

The sauce straining really is a winner. Only the flavor was lacking, so now I need to figure out the right ratios of seasoning. How much salt and sugar have you been using?

Thanks for this great thread!

Awesome! I'm glad my thread helped  :chef:

I actually use 9oz of mozz on a 14" pie with 3/4 cup sauce and 419 grams of dough. It's not light on anything for sure, but I like it!

After straining my tomato I have 1.25 cups of smooth tomato. I add:
3/4 tsp sugar
1/2 tsp oregano
1 medium basil leaf cut into as many pieces as possible
1/32 tsp garlic powder
1/32 tsp black pepper (may try more some day)
1/4 tsp EVOO
4 tsp good Parmigiano Reggiano
And 1/8 tsp salt

Salt is a tricky one because
1) I dont eat much sodium aside from pizza night so I'm sensitive to it
2) You have to account for the sodium in your other ingredients. In my case, my 7/11 crushed tomato has salt added, and I'm adding 4 tsp of parm. So 1/8 tsp of salt is enough for me.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on November 01, 2018, 06:45:13 PM
Matt, I look back in my PDF folder and my last pie had a Cheese TF of .0472 and yours calculated out to be .0585. I think I'm going to try your amount on my next pie - I felt like mine could have used a touch more cheese.

I wish you knew the weight of your sauce - would love to match it on my next pie too. My last one (for sauce was .028) and it needed more I think.....

BTW, the nice part about establishing TF for sauce and cheese it is easer for someone to scale to the size pie they make (or at least get closer than guessing).

Maybe next time you will help a pizza pal out and weigh your sauce :-)

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on November 01, 2018, 08:02:14 PM


Thanks Ryan. Could be. But the color to me was similar to 7/11. It could've been a crushed tomato that was blended. Its hard for me to guess.



I'm wondering if the paste component helps leave more of a defined sauce layer post bake. Or maybe I just need to add more sauce to my pies!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 01, 2018, 08:18:48 PM
I'm wondering if the paste component helps leave more of a defined sauce layer post bake. Or maybe I just need to add more sauce to my pies!

Are you thinking because paste will make the sauce thicker? I've imagined that if/when I experiment with paste I'll thin it to my usual consistency to achieve the same melt. So, not certain.

But yes, add more sauce for sure!!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 01, 2018, 08:20:07 PM
No problem Norm. Will try to remember to weigh my sauce this week.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on November 01, 2018, 09:41:12 PM
Are you thinking because paste will make the sauce thicker? I've imagined that if/when I experiment with paste I'll thin it to my usual consistency to achieve the same melt. So, not certain.

But yes, add more sauce for sure!!

IDK, your pizza from Amore looked super juicy, yet it didn't look like it was sauced really heavy to me in your video. It's been a long time since I measured my sauce, maybe I need to do that for a bit to take some notes, or find a bigger ladle!


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 01, 2018, 09:59:02 PM
IDK, your pizza from Amore looked super juicy, yet it didn't look like it was sauced really heavy to me in your video...

I disagree on this one. I think it was very saucy. Likely even more than I use. The sauce is thin, so to get the physical depth shown below its really put on in puddles.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on November 01, 2018, 11:15:01 PM
How much sauce you guys using on your pies? I have an 8 oz ladle and I usually fill it till its brimming out plus another dab, so I'm guessing 9.5 oz on a 19-20" pie
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on November 01, 2018, 11:47:12 PM
How much sauce you guys using on your pies? I have an 8 oz ladle and I usually fill it till its brimming out plus another dab, so I'm guessing 9.5 oz on a 19-20" pie

I used 12 fl oz with 440g of cheese tonight.  It was too much out of the oven, but reasonable on the reheat.    Next pie will be 10 oz with 380g.  I'd like to develop a playbook to dial in what I'm going for.  The problem is,  I'm always going for something different and I only make 3 pizzas a month.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 02, 2018, 06:52:48 AM
My last pie had 9 fluid ounces of sauce for a 16" pizza.

JKB, you should definitely keep a notebook. Even if you change things every week you'd still have a record of the impact of the changes.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on November 02, 2018, 07:21:57 AM
My online calculator generates the TF values for sauce and cheese (and dough) - I also have pre-made worksheets (lookup tables) for download on the site for sauce, cheese and dough.

So using the sauce worksheet along with the info from the last few posts you can see the sauce TF values Josh, John and Matt have used / plan to use. (I assumed 18 inch for pies for John since I think that is what he makes)..... Looking at the numbers it is clear to see why John's last pie was so saucy - that was the highest TF at .0472.

It would be great to track this info over time - maybe at some point I can have the site generate graphs. And it helps all of us trying to duplicate sauce and cheese amounts on different size pies.

Anyway, just trying to help!

PS. Updated chart to reflect the fact that John makes 20 inch pies, sorry John, I forgot you had that cool home oven.

www.mypizzamaster.com
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on November 02, 2018, 07:54:02 AM

JKB, you should definitely keep a notebook. Even if you change things every week you'd still have a record of the impact of the changes.

I was an analytical development chemist in the early- mid 90's.  I've got a notebook.  :-D  It's just that I don't generate much data.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on November 02, 2018, 08:03:19 AM
My online calculator generates the TF values for sauce and cheese (and dough) - I also have pre-made worksheets (lookup tables) for download on the site for sauce, cheese and dough.

So using the sauce worksheet along with the info from the last few posts you can see the sauce TF values Josh, John and Matt have used / plan to use. (I assumed 18 inch for pies for John since I think that is what he makes)..... Looking at the numbers it is clear to see why John's last pie was so saucy - that was the highest TF at .0472.

It would be great to track this info over time - maybe at some point I can have the site generate graphs. And it helps all of us trying to duplicate sauce and cheese amounts on different size pies.

Anyway, just trying to help!

www.mypizzamaster.com

I do 20" pies and was referring to U.S. fluid ounces.  Unfortunately, density, % water and tomato solids composition aren't constants for sauce.  That makes it a multivariable factor and that's where things get tricky.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on November 02, 2018, 08:22:07 AM
I'll correct the post, sorry, I forgot you had that cool oven. I think one fluid ounce is one ounce in weight - do I have that wrong?

I realize the density is going to be different but I don't think the differences in density (viscosity) will change the weight of any given sauce too much - at the end of the day a sauce with more or less water will be close to the same weight (assuming reasonable sauce thickness variances).

I have wanted a cheap viscosimeter for a long time and considered designing one myself based on measurement of the forces on a paddle turning in a liquid by measuring the differences in motor current draw. But I doubt I will get around to it because...
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on November 02, 2018, 08:31:58 AM
If you're in the market for a viscometer, I always liked Brookfield.  As Found = As Left at calibration time.  Kind of the Fluke of viscometers.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on November 02, 2018, 08:40:54 AM
I should have bolded and underlined the word cheap  :P

I'm talking arduino, hobby motor and a popsicle stick viscometer held together with dental floss  :-D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on November 02, 2018, 08:53:53 AM
I should have bolded and underlined the word cheap  :P

I'm talking arduino, hobby motor and a popsicle stick viscometer held together with dental floss  :-D

While you're at it, you could do away with centipoise and create your own standard unit.  Curious SI units didn't catch on for viscosity measurement.

Sorry, Matt.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on November 03, 2018, 01:04:30 AM
I'm starting to make my own pies more saucy as I feel juicy pies are just delicious. Sometimes I look at a slice from a place like Best or Paulie Gee's slice shop and Id take Amore or Margherita over it any day.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 03, 2018, 09:38:24 PM
I thought this pie looked awesome. But the flavor was only ok. Major issue was that the sauce tasted tart. It was a new can of 7/11. Perhaps its a bad can. Or maybe my taste changed based on my trip to Amore a few days ago, but I don't think so.

The crust was also a bit thick.

On the plus side, I liked the crust bake. I heated my stone slighter hotter (495-510 via an oven setting of 480). And I baked 6:15 on screen plus 2:30 directly on the deck. It didn't have that char flavor like at Amore. So I was surprised when I compared my undercrust side-by-side with Amore and mine was darker. Perhaps they had burnt raw flour on their pie, or a well-seasoned or even dirty stone.

Changes:
Took the dough out 15 minutes earlier - good
New can of 7/11 - questionable as sauce was tart
Pre-heated stone at 480 - good
13 oz mozz, down from 13.5 oz - good
More bake direct on stone (6:15+2:30=8:45) - good

Next time:
Reduce the dough weight/TF
A bit more oregano
Maybe more sugar in sauce

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on November 03, 2018, 09:53:21 PM
Looks good, Matt. Typically, how long do you spend opening the dough getting it to the point shown in your first picture?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 03, 2018, 09:58:41 PM
Looks good, Matt. Typically, how long do you spend opening the dough getting it to the point shown in your first picture?

Thanks Tony. It takes me 5-10 minutes to get a circle like that. I could do it less slowly, but that's one of the most fun parts for me. The music is cranking at that point.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on November 03, 2018, 10:07:12 PM
Thanks Tony. It takes me 5-10 minutes to get a circle like that. I could do it less slowly, but that's one of the most fun parts for me. The music is cranking at that point.
I thought that might be the case. You always have them picture perfect. Music can only help :)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 03, 2018, 10:13:06 PM
I thought that might be the case. You always have them picture perfect. Music can only help :)

Thanks again. It's really 3 things that I started doing:

1. When pressing just inside the rim with my right hand, i have my left hand arched around the outside of the dough

2. I dont lift the dough to knuckle stretch until it's a clean circle.

3. I do minor adjustments to the skin while it's on the screen.

Oh, and 4. I actually use a measuring tape when it's on the screen to guide #3. (As the screen I'm using isnt actually a circle.)

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on November 04, 2018, 01:12:39 AM
As far as charring goes, your set up ain't gonna match the power of a roaring Bakers Pride Y600 ;D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Essen1 on November 04, 2018, 01:23:22 AM
Thanks again. It's really 3 things that I started doing:

1. When pressing just inside the rim with my right hand, i have my left hand arched around the outside of the dough

2. I dont lift the dough to knuckle stretch until it's a clean circle.

3. I do minor adjustments to the skin while it's on the screen.

Oh, and 4. I actually use a measuring tape when it's on the screen to guide #3. (As the screen I'm using isnt actually a circle.)

Matt,

Take this as constructive criticism...!

Pay a little more attention to how you ball your dough balls.

I've seen several weak spots in the last two skins you posted which can create inconsistencies in how they bake up, not to mention the occasional ripped skin when trying to rotate the pies. It is possible that you're pushing too much air inside when balling them up.

It also helps, once you have the skin on your knuckles, to hold it up against a light...you'll be able to see the weak spots ahead of time and may have a chance to correct those.

Also, crumb shots of your pies at a bigger JPEG size would be helpful to see how the crumb developed during the bake.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 04, 2018, 06:32:15 AM
Matt,

Take this as constructive criticism...!

Pay a little more attention to how you ball your dough balls.

I've seen several weak spots in the last two skins you posted which can create inconsistencies in how they bake up, not to mention the occasional ripped skin when trying to rotate the pies. It is possible that you're pushing too much air inside when balling them up.

It also helps, once you have the skin on your knuckles, to hold it up against a light...you'll be able to see the weak spots ahead of time and may have a chance to correct those.

Also, crumb shots of your pies at a bigger JPEG size would be helpful to see how the crumb developed during the bake.

Thanks, I appreciate and welcome constructive criticism  :chef:

My recent bakes have had 1 or 2 (fairly large) thin spots which are definitely visible in my pics of the skin. And in the final product as the wettest part of the melt pools there.

I think they actual happen during my fingertip press early in the opening process and are likely a result of bubbles that I'm popping.

It'd make sense then that it's caused by trapping air when balling.

The other thing I was thinking about last night was that I mix more dough than needed, and tear away the excess. Sometimes I tear away too much, and have to add some back to the main doughball. I don't know of that re-combining process is a bad thing.

Given my thin spots are occurring during fingertip press, they are already there when I start to knuckle stretch. And I do see it as I do hold the dough up over eye-level.

You're saying a thin spot can be corrected after it's formed??

Regarding my crumb, it's tight the way I like it. The reason it's not visible in the pics isn't because of photo quality, but because I put so much sauce and cheese that it's not visible! I can post a pic of it in the future though. (If you actually meant the crumb in the rim, I generally don't photograph that because I really dont care about the rim. I guess maybe seeing the rim could provide some insight into how the rest of the crust baked though.)


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on November 04, 2018, 11:09:39 PM
I thought this pie looked awesome.


It does.  Unfortunately, a photo doesn't tell the whole picture.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Essen1 on November 04, 2018, 11:26:28 PM
Thanks, I appreciate and welcome constructive criticism  :chef:

My recent bakes have had 1 or 2 (fairly large) thin spots which are definitely visible in my pics of the skin. And in the final product as the wettest part of the melt pools there.

I think they actual happen during my fingertip press early in the opening process and are likely a result of bubbles that I'm popping.

It'd make sense then that it's caused by trapping air when balling.

The other thing I was thinking about last night was that I mix more dough than needed, and tear away the excess. Sometimes I tear away too much, and have to add some back to the main doughball. I don't know of that re-combining process is a bad thing.

Given my thin spots are occurring during fingertip press, they are already there when I start to knuckle stretch. And I do see it as I do hold the dough up over eye-level.

You're saying a thin spot can be corrected after it's formed??

Regarding my crumb, it's tight the way I like it. The reason it's not visible in the pics isn't because of photo quality, but because I put so much sauce and cheese that it's not visible! I can post a pic of it in the future though. (If you actually meant the crumb in the rim, I generally don't photograph that because I really dont care about the rim. I guess maybe seeing the rim could provide some insight into how the rest of the crust baked though.)

Matt,

I don't think those weak spots show up after your fingertip press.

They've been there because of poor balling, especially if they are fairly large. That shows that during the balling/scaling procedure, voids occurred due to gasses not being released or too much air trapped inside the dough ball, hence the bubbles you see popping up in your skin. Do not pop them before placing them into the oven. Pop them after 2-3 mins during bakes.

Do you degas your dough before balling it up? If not, you should do so.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 05, 2018, 06:58:48 AM
Matt,

I don't think those weak spots show up after your fingertip press.

They've been there because of poor balling, especially if they are fairly large. That shows that during the balling/scaling procedure, voids occurred due to gasses not being released or too much air trapped inside the dough ball, hence the bubbles you see popping up in your skin. Do not pop them before placing them into the oven. Pop them after 2-3 mins during bakes.

Do you degas your dough before balling it up? If not, you should do so.

Thanks, will pay more attention during the balling process. No, I haven't been degassing.

I didn't mean that the thin spots were caused by the fingertip press. Poorly chosen words on my part. I meant that I could already see them at that point. So I know it's caused by a problem early in the process, likely balling as you say. (As opposed to poor technique during knuckle stretch.)

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 05, 2018, 07:01:24 AM

It does.  Unfortunately, a photo doesn't tell the whole picture.

Yeah, that's what was so frustrating about this bake. It looked like it was going to be awesome, then tasted like lemon juice. I'm still ticked off about it.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Trossite on November 07, 2018, 08:12:56 PM
It also helps, once you have the skin on your knuckles, to hold it up against a light...you'll be able to see the weak spots ahead of time and may have a chance to correct those.


Curious as to how you correct weak spots once you've opened the dough skin?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on November 07, 2018, 08:18:07 PM
Curious as to how you correct weak spots once you've opened the dough skin?

You can't correct them, but you can identify and stay away from them before it's too late.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Essen1 on November 08, 2018, 12:41:57 AM
You can't correct them, but you can identify and stay away from them before it's too late.

Thank you. That's what I actually meant.

Sorry for confusing everybody  :-[
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on November 08, 2018, 11:55:27 PM
Sorry for the hijack but this seems to be the sauce and melt club and i thought I'd show how my recent pies have been looking in that regard
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 09, 2018, 07:09:04 AM
Thanks for posting Josh, your pies have been looking absolutely amazing!

The pre-bake pics are very helpful. At first glance I'd say that our sauce amounts are similar and I'm heavier on the cheese. I think you're using pre-shredded grande which makes the comparison much easier as our shred size will be identical. (I'm using 50% part skim so extra cheese is helpful.)

The pre-bake pics also give a real clear look into how you're flattening the rim. I really like the result.


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on November 09, 2018, 09:12:16 AM
Sorry for the hijack but this seems to be the sauce and melt club and i thought I'd show how my recent pies have been looking in that regard

Is the sauce cooked? Looks pretty hearty, good amount of Saporito in there?

Badass pizza you've been posting lately!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on November 09, 2018, 04:17:47 PM
Thanks for posting Josh, your pies have been looking absolutely amazing!

The pre-bake pics are very helpful. At first glance I'd say that our sauce amounts are similar and I'm heavier on the cheese. I think you're using pre-shredded grande which makes the comparison much easier as our shred size will be identical. (I'm using 50% part skim so extra cheese is helpful.)

The pre-bake pics also give a real clear look into how you're flattening the rim. I really like the result.

Yeah, whole milk mozzarella is a different level of orange grease and melt you gotta account for lol. Its also chewier, so you get more coverage with less.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on November 09, 2018, 04:18:32 PM
Is the sauce cooked? Looks pretty hearty, good amount of Saporito in there?

Badass pizza you've been posting lately!

Not cooked. Lets just say I'm a fan of Stanislaus paste  8)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on November 09, 2018, 11:01:14 PM
Is the sauce cooked? Looks pretty hearty, good amount of Saporito in there?

Badass pizza you've been posting lately!

 ^^^
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 10, 2018, 08:31:57 PM
Oh baby, loved this pie  :chef:

Changes/key items:

Following Mike's comments I ended up flattening my doughball as I formed it, about 3/4 of the way to a hockey puck. I don't know if this is technically correct, but it seemed to work! No major thin spots. No black was showing through the skin on the screen. (And this dough ball was actually a bit lighter than the last couple.)

Tasting this 7/11, it did again seem tart. I added an extra 1/4 tsp of sugar.

More oregano in sauce. Probably 3/4 tsp though I'm unsure. This was actually an accident as I unintentially grabbed a teaspoon instead of half. Then I fished some oregano out. I forgot how much I love oregano in my pies.

Note the 7/11 does seem a bit thinner after freezing then straining it, versus straining it right out of the can. 

TF small reduction to 0.095. This coupled with the lack of thin spots was real nice.

Mozz reduction to (probably slight more than) 12.5 oz. Was great. The reduction led to the pie feeling it bit more saucy, and the cheese more greasy. Still a whopping 1+1/8 cups of sauce.

Inspired by Josh's skin I make my rim smaller and didn't worry about saucing right up to it.

Stone 500-510 again. Bake time 8:30 with 6:20 on screen plus 2:10 on stone. Confirmed that the longer stone time helps the crust bake.

Lastly, as the guy said in the Margherita Pizza video - "if the grease doesn't get on your hand...or roll down your arm on a really good day. You're not eating it right."  :) A new record for me on this front.

Only thing to clean up is I had some bubbles. With the weather getting colder I may need to take my dough out of the fridge earlier.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Hermit on November 10, 2018, 09:06:16 PM
Pretty damn good for a home oven Matt, kudos on a killer pie all around!  :pizza: :chef:  That orange grease trail is epic  ;D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Irishboy on November 10, 2018, 09:26:51 PM
Matt,

I don't think those weak spots show up after your fingertip press.

They've been there because of poor balling, especially if they are fairly large. That shows that during the balling/scaling procedure, voids occurred due to gasses not being released or too much air trapped inside the dough ball, hence the bubbles you see popping up in your skin. Do not pop them before placing them into the oven. Pop them after 2-3 mins during bakes.

Do you degas your dough before balling it up? If not, you should do so.

I have had this issue also do you have any recommendations on the proper way to ball or maybe post a link to point me in the right direction
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Irishboy on November 10, 2018, 09:58:00 PM
I have quite enjoyed reading through this thread the last hour. This to me represents a true New York pie.

I'm finding it very interesting how you're actually going down on the oven temperature where everyone else wants to go up. I'm actually in the same boat as you I'm going to start working my way down because I have a 3/8 in baking Steel and I get way too much char for my liking I'm looking for a golden brown crust and still foldable that's not cracker thin or like chewing on a Bagel.

I'm still reading through your post but it seems like you like the results of a stone temperature around 480 degrees? I like your notes because I can now focus on my steel temperature, I've been looking for information on just us baking surface temperature.

I think I might try a 450-degree cook on this next pie and see how it goes because even 500 is too much for my wife and kids liking.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jvp123 on November 10, 2018, 10:07:13 PM
I have quite enjoyed reading through this thread the last hour. This to me represents a true New York pie.

I'm finding it very interesting how you're actually going down on the oven temperature where everyone else wants to go up. I'm actually in the same boat as you I'm going to start working my way down because I have a 3/8 in baking Steel and I get way too much char for my liking I'm looking for a golden brown crust and still foldable that's not cracker thin or like chewing on a Bagel.

I'm still reading through your post but it seems like you like the results of a stone temperature around 480 degrees? I like your notes because I can now focus on my steel temperature, I've been looking for information on just us baking surface temperature.

I think I might try a 450-degree cook on this next pie and see how it goes because even 500 is too much for my wife and kids liking.

Have you tried baking on a stone?

I was on a steel for a while, but found it challenging to balance the top and bottom heat.  My bottoms would char and then I'd have to kick on the broiler - sometimes while holding the pie off the steel.   Once I went to a stone my bakes were much easier and more even without needing to use the broiler.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 10, 2018, 10:11:35 PM
I have quite enjoyed reading through this thread the last hour. This to me represents a true New York pie.
...

Thanks very much!

To answer your questions - the last 2 bakes my stone has been a bit hotter at 500-510 and I've liked it. But keep in mind too that I'm using a screen for most of the bake, which shields the crust from the stone. I achieve this stone temp in my oven by preheating at 480. After putting the pizza in the oven, I raise the temp to 500.

And as Jeff just pointed out, stone vs steel will make a big difference.  I've never tried steel.

The lower temp and longer bake philosophy was hard for me to embrace at first, as some of the most vocal forum members of the past believed in hot fast bakes. Some folks like Ryan (invertedisdead) will remember my journey on this. It's documented in the "melt" thread that's linked in my first post. In short, I went from 4 minute bakes in my Blackstone at 625 to 8:30 bakes in my kitchen at 500 with a screen. And I practically doubled the amount of mozzarella and significantly increased the amount of sauce and hard cheese. It's been a long journey and incredibly fun.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Irishboy on November 10, 2018, 10:41:24 PM
Yeah the stone has crossed my mind but it's a hard pill to swallow when you spend a lot of money on a baking Steel to not use it ;D

It would be great for Neapolitan but my kids like the softer crust without as much char. I also have a baking screen that I use and combination on my Steel to help lesson the Char at higher temperatures. I am new at learning The Craft and pretty much was self-taught or Internet certified to learn how to make pizzas so everything I've always read said go as hot as you possibly can but I seem to be having a very hard time balancing out the top or bottom for getting my cheese not to burn even when using whole milk mozzarella as what was just mentioned up above from jeff

I might have to invest in a stone but I really want to try to dial in the steel but I think I just need to start working my way down

The two methods that crossed my mind were lowering the overall temperature while still preheating the oven for Round 1 hour. (I like your idea of bumping up the temperature once you launch the pizza)

Or just keeping the oven nice and hot like 500 degrees or 550 but not letting it preheat as long I would imagine that would also work? Launch the pizza right when the oven hits 550 and the still doesn't have as much time to absorb as much power. if I could have went back in time I would have definitely got one quarter inch steel because it 3/8 steel packs a pretty big punch and can seriously burn your pizza in a matter of one minute F-550 for 1 hour
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on November 10, 2018, 10:45:05 PM
Loving these epic juicy slices Matt!!  :drool:

It's turned into a great trip watching your pizza journey, too!

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on November 10, 2018, 11:08:09 PM
Great looking pie, Matt. Make that jump to straight whole milk though  >:D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Jackitup on November 11, 2018, 01:33:49 AM
I have had this issue also do you have any recommendations on the proper way to ball or maybe post a link to point me in the right direction

LOTS of good videos on YouTube on dough handling. Watch several to get a good idea, then just practice!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: HansB on November 11, 2018, 08:40:45 AM
Loving these epic juicy slices Matt!!  :drool:

It's turned into a great trip watching your pizza journey, too!

^^^
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 11, 2018, 05:21:51 PM
Great looking pie, Matt. Make that jump to straight whole milk though  >:D

I almost bought a loaf of whole milk last week. I'll need to give it a try soon. I used whole milk exclusively for a couple years, but switched to 50/50 when I started increasing my mozz amount. I like having a decently thick layer of cheese, so the blend may be necessary.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 11, 2018, 05:24:20 PM
Yeah the stone has crossed my mind but it's a hard pill to swallow when you spend a lot of money on a baking Steel to not use it ;D
...

This is probably an unorthodox use of steel, but maybe you could try a screen to insulate the bottom.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Irishboy on November 11, 2018, 06:07:22 PM
This is probably an unorthodox use of steel, but maybe you could try a screen to insulate the bottom.

I have actually been messing with that setup, still need to lower the temperature 550 still chared it but it definitely helps big time, if the bottom is not to my liking because of the screen then I just put it on the steel for 1min.

This does work good. I really was trying to shoot for a full bake on the steel I just don't get how people are able to do that without a chared pizza?

The only thing I read that made sense was scott123 was talking about how not all steels are made equal and some have higher percentages of a certain metal that can make it cook faster so obviously mine has a super amount of that metal because it definitely pack a punch.lol

After reading through your guyses pizza threads I am motivated to start messing with the screens more and changing my cheese and sauce ratios and smthinning out my crust which I've noticed with the poofy crust sometimes the center isn't properly cooked resulting in a overcook exterior with a doughy middle
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on November 11, 2018, 06:27:13 PM
I have actually been messing with that setup, still need to lower the temperature 550 still chared it but it definitely helps big time, if the bottom is not to my liking because of the screen then I just put it on the steel for 1min.

This does work good. I really was trying to shoot for a full bake on the steel I just don't get how people are able to do that without a chared pizza?

The only thing I read that made sense was scott123 was talking about how not all steels are made equal and some have higher percentages of a certain metal that can make it cook faster so obviously mine has a super amount of that metal because it definitely pack a punch.lol

After reading through your guyses pizza threads I am motivated to start messing with the screens more and changing my cheese and sauce ratios and smthinning out my crust which I've noticed with the poofy crust sometimes the center isn't properly cooked resulting in a overcook exterior with a doughy middle

That was our big NY pizza revelation, to stop following Scott123's advice.
His bake times were not realistic for deck oven NY slice pies.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Irishboy on November 11, 2018, 06:36:34 PM
That was our big NY pizza revelation, to stop following Scott123's advice.
His bake times were not realistic for deck oven NY slice pies.

I have a few dough balls i am going to test different temps. A full 450 bake
Then a bake at 550 but not preheating as long like most suggest for 1hr maybe only 15 or 30min. That should help hot oven temp but not enough time to get the steel crazy hot and not charge up too much heat
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 11, 2018, 06:38:45 PM
That was our big NY pizza revelation, to stop following Scott123's advice.
His bake times were not realistic for deck oven NY slice pies.

Well that succinctly sums it up
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Hermit on November 11, 2018, 07:14:34 PM
8-10 min bakes seems to produce a really good pizza.  I'm not entirely sure which temp I like better with NY style pizza  ??? @475F I am able to get a better melt @ 10m, but I like the little bit of moisture still in the crumb from the 8m bakes.  I been trying to tweak the oils and was really surprised when I tried butter with my last batch instead of oil.  Still had some chew and might have got a lil better maillard reaction.  Wanna try that dough out again at 475F to try and get this cheese more cooked.

Are you still preferring the slices fairly cooled Matt?  I always enjoyed that, not sure if it's a throwback to delivery days when the pies were decently cooled when they reached the door?  The flavors definitely seem to shine a lot more versus piping hot like you said.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: gabeshave on November 11, 2018, 07:25:34 PM
Hey hammer what hydration do you make your dough?? And what weight per dough ball to size of pizza ratio? And could you please link me to your dough recipe if it's posted somewhere? I'm having trouble getting a thick stiff chew from middle to crust? I have a great flavor but the dough is too thin. I use about a 250g ball for 12-14 inch pizza. I also cook on a stone hooked up to my grill where I cook at about 650+bottom 700+ top about finish in roughly 4-5 min per pizza. Screen looks interesting but want to know the concept behind the cook. Your Pizza looks fantastic.

Mahalo from Maui
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 11, 2018, 07:32:15 PM
8-10 min bakes seems to produce a really good pizza.  I'm not entirely sure which temp I like better with NY style pizza  ??? @475F I am able to get a better melt @ 10m, but I like the little bit of moisture still in the crumb from the 8m bakes.  I been trying to tweak the oils and was really surprised when I tried butter with my last batch instead of oil.  Still had some chew and might have got a lil better maillard reaction.  Wanna try that dough out again at 475F to try and get this cheese more cooked.

Are you still preferring the slices fairly cooled Matt?  I always enjoyed that, not sure if it's a throwback to delivery days when the pies were decently cooled when they reached the door?  The flavors definitely seem to shine a lot more versus piping hot like you said.

Maybe try to meet in the middle with a faster/hotter bake? 500 for 8:30 has been good for me. So many variables and no correct answer, keeps it exciting.

Yes, I really like when the pie is warm rather than piping hot. It certainly seems to me that I can taste all the elements of sauce and cheese better. And they mingle better. But I also agree that the pizza we grow up with matters alot for preference. In my case, we'd generally take out the pizza and have a 10 minute car ride before getting home.


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 11, 2018, 07:43:17 PM
Hey hammer what hydration do you make your dough?? And what weight per dough ball to size of pizza ratio? And could you please link me to your dough recipe if it's posted somewhere? I'm having trouble getting a thick stiff chew from middle to crust? I have a great flavor but the dough is too thin. I use about a 250g ball for 12-14 inch pizza. I also cook on a stone hooked up to my grill where I cook at about 650+bottom 700+ top about finish in roughly 4-5 min per pizza. Screen looks interesting but want to know the concept behind the cook. Your Pizza looks fantastic.

Mahalo from Maui

Please enjoy a day at the beach for me!

Grill bakes are generally tricky as there is so much bottom heat and little top heat.

The idea behind the screen (and stone temp and oven temp) is to allow for a long bake with a slow gentle melt of the cheese.

12-14 inch pizza is a big range. For 14" I was using 420 grams, so way more than your 250.

My current formula is:

100% high gluten flour
54% water
3.9% oil
1.8% salt
1.3% sugar
.24% idy
Cold ferment about 2 days

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: gabeshave on November 11, 2018, 08:57:45 PM
Please enjoy a day at the beach for me!

Grill bakes are generally tricky as there is so much bottom heat and little top heat.

The idea behind the screen (and stone temp and oven temp) is to allow for a long bake with a slow gentle melt of the cheese.

12-14 inch pizza is a big range. For 14" I was using 420 grams, so way more than your 250.

My current formula is:

100% high gluten flour
54% water
3.9% oil
1.8% salt
1.3% sugar
.24% idy
Cold ferment about 2 days
Awesome thank you very much for your wisdom!


Oh btw, cold ferment as in, in your fridge?? Or do you use a specific temp?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 11, 2018, 09:03:43 PM
Fridge. But make sure you take the dough out of the fridge to let it warm up before using. In my case that's 2-3 hours, but I suspect it may take less time in Hawaii  8)

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: gabeshave on November 11, 2018, 09:06:03 PM
Fridge. But make sure you take the dough out of the fridge to let it warm up before using. In my case that's 2-3 hours, but I suspect it may take less time in Hawaii  8)
XD

Mahalo let me know if you visit!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on November 11, 2018, 11:14:40 PM
That was our big NY pizza revelation, to stop following Scott123's advice.
His bake times were not realistic for deck oven NY slice pies.

You mean Mr. Purist, who touted 66% hydrations, 3 day CF and baking steels?  8)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Essen1 on November 12, 2018, 12:08:26 AM
You mean Mr. Purist, who touted 66% hydrations, 3 day CF and baking steels?  8)

Something wrong with that?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 12, 2018, 06:58:37 AM
Something wrong with that?

Nothing wrong with baking like that in of itself, but if a person is trying to replicate a NY slice that's low-mid 50s hydration, same day or overnight dough and an 8 minute bake, then he'll be far off the mark with this guidance.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Essen1 on November 12, 2018, 09:38:37 PM
Nothing wrong with baking like that in of itself, but if a person is trying to replicate a NY slice that's low-mid 50s hydration, same day or overnight dough and an 8 minute bake, then he'll be far off the mark with this guidance.

You sure?

Sounds like you know more than you're letting on.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 13, 2018, 07:14:14 AM
Let's not turn this into a bash Scott thread please. Nothing wrong with a 66% hydration and 4 minute bake. I'm sure that method can produce a great tasting pizza. It didnt help me though, as I was looking to replicate the Queens style pizzerias that surround me.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: vtsteve on November 13, 2018, 08:59:34 AM
Let's not turn this into a bash Scott thread please. Nothing wrong with a 66% hydration and 4 minute bake. I'm sure that method can produce a great tasting pizza. It didnt help me though, as I was looking to replicate the Queens style pizzerias that surround me.


And "the sauce must be thin enough to boil" was life-changing for me!   :chef:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 13, 2018, 09:01:28 AM
And "the sauce must be thin enough to boil" was life-changing for me!   :chef:

What are to you currently using for sauce Steve?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: vtsteve on November 13, 2018, 09:17:49 AM
What are to you currently using for sauce Steve?

Last batch (of the season? Looks that way!  :-D) was one can 7/11, one can Alta Cucina, black pepper, granulated garlic and a capful of L&P Worcestershire, and dry oregano sprinkled on just before the cheese.

Most of the summer I was using 7/11 + Saporito super-heavy w/basil, and lots of water, plus seasonings.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Pete-zza on November 13, 2018, 09:49:34 AM
Guys,

I view this as essentially being Matt's thread where he can explore the subject of pizza and report on his results without others turning it into a place for contentious debate. So, please try to stay on topic and avoid personal attacks.

Peter
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Hermit on November 13, 2018, 10:10:02 AM
Matt can you give a comparison to the crust baked on these queens style screens versus the cheap diamond holed screens?  I'm wanting a bit more contact with metal and the mesh seems to do the trick, thinking I might be able to get a more intense boil once all that metal gets up to temp.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 13, 2018, 06:36:35 PM
Matt can you give a comparison to the crust baked on these queens style screens versus the cheap diamond holed screens?  I'm wanting a bit more contact with metal and the mesh seems to do the trick, thinking I might be able to get a more intense boil once all that metal gets up to temp.

I dont think I know for sure because I only baked with the usual diamond screen once or twice. I think the mesh is thinner and gets closer to a stone bake, without requiring bench flour. Maybe Josh can provide his thoughts. I remember he's hand filed down the diamond sceeens.

But, I'm also a bit confused by your question. I thought you bake with the screen on the oven rack and no stone? If that's the case, then first thing is to put the screen onto a stone. Then experiment with sliding the pie direct to stone mid-bake.

The stone makes a big difference. And when I move the pie mid-bake directly to the stone, I see the sauce/cheese bubbling speed up almost immediately. It's cool to watch.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 13, 2018, 09:05:23 PM
Josh posted an amazing Queens-inspired pie:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg551684#msg551684

And it reminded me of Lucia in Flushing (which I still haven't been to, partly because of the lack of parking).

This led me to find a video of Lucia. Not a great video, but shows the temperature gauge at 500  :chef:

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on November 13, 2018, 09:09:53 PM
Josh posted an amazing Queens-inspired pie:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg551684#msg551684

And it reminded me of Lucia in Flushing (which I still haven't been to, partly because of the lack of parking).

This led me to find a video of Lucia. Not a great video, but shows the temperature gauge at 500  :chef:

I wonder if that makes the floor temp like 450F?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 13, 2018, 09:19:54 PM
I wonder if that makes the floor temp like 450F?

Possibly? You pointed this out once before, and it's what led me to start pre-heating at a lower temp than my bake temp (though I basically abandoned that my last 2 bakes).

Here's the only undercrust shot I found

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 13, 2018, 09:24:53 PM
That slice I just posted from Lucia a couple posts above may be my ideal looking slice. I think the closest I got recently was my first 16" bake where I overstretched by maybe an inch. An inch would've brought my TF down from 0.09625 to 0.085.

But, on the other hand, before I totally drop my TF, the scale of 16" vs 18" fools the eyes. And that folded slice I just posted looks fairly thick.

Here's my pie that I'm referring to (4 slices) and the Lucia pic again.



Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on November 13, 2018, 09:53:57 PM
That Lucia slice looks epic! Its tricky to get such a juicy slice. I think your slices look great too  :)


The pie in my avatar was baked at 450F, I think it was one of my best melts but I haven't baked at that temp in a while. I haven't had access to that cheese again either so I'm not sure.

I really dig the melt on this pie Harry had posted in his Queens thread.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on November 13, 2018, 11:28:28 PM
Matt can you give a comparison to the crust baked on these queens style screens versus the cheap diamond holed screens?  I'm wanting a bit more contact with metal and the mesh seems to do the trick, thinking I might be able to get a more intense boil once all that metal gets up to temp.

The Queens screens are far, far superior. There is very little difference between them and going straight off the peel, texture wise. Id say the peel still makes a crispier pie and gives it more of a natural and rustic flavor, but the Queens screen is an excellent substitute. I could never go back to regular screens after using them.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hotsawce on November 14, 2018, 01:36:43 AM
I can promise you it's not a low 50's hydration. I've literally purchased dough balls from Joe's and in my (multiyear, professional) experience the hydration was at least 60 given the nature of the flour. I've also seen them store them in the standup fridge, and I've seen the dough's dated (at least) a day prior before.

I've timed pizzas at Williamsburg pizza in the 5 minute range. I've talked to the guys running the ovens at Joe's - baking at least 600 when its busy...sometimes 625.

For someone who is reverse engineering great NY pizza from a distance in a home oven, it's pretty incredible to me how close Scott is to being on the mark. Right down to the thickness factor to the texture of the tomatoes used for sauce. Hell, he even nailed how they do 20" slice pies and stretch smaller for to go pies from the same dough. That's a real thing here.

He was right about the thinner sauce being necessary for the melt. How do I know? I bake in Deck ovens and I've seen it and experienced it with different tomatoes.

The "Queens Style" is kind of a joke - It's the bridge between real NY style and Two Bros. They took NY dough balls and baked them on a screen at an inferior temperature. Within the next couple of weeks when I'm off I'll take a drive to both, buy a dough ball and a few slices, and tell you the thickness factor. It's probably spot on 0.079tf. It's also worth noting, unless you're a skilled pizza-maker you can read into TF completely wrong. I can take a 23oz dough ball and stretch something that eats just like a pie from Joe's at 20". I can give the same dough to another person and it's going to be way too thin in the center. I can stretch the same dough ball so it eats THICKER than that calculated TF.

You mean Mr. Purist, who touted 66% hydrations, 3 day CF and baking steels?  8)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hotsawce on November 14, 2018, 01:42:28 AM
This is called "Very thin sauce, light cheese, blonde bake."

That Lucia slice looks epic! Its tricky to get such a juicy slice. I think your slices look great too  :)


The pie in my avatar was baked at 450F, I think it was one of my best melts but I haven't baked at that temp in a while. I haven't had access to that cheese again either so I'm not sure.

I really dig the melt on this pie Harry had posted in his Queens thread.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 14, 2018, 07:17:21 AM
I can promise you it's not a low 50's hydration. I've literally purchased dough balls from Joe's and in my (multiyear, professional) experience the hydration was at least 60 given the nature of the flour. I've also seen them store them in the standup fridge, and I've seen the dough's dated (at least) a day prior before.

I've timed pizzas at Williamsburg pizza in the 5 minute range. I've talked to the guys running the ovens at Joe's - baking at least 600 when its busy...sometimes 625.

For someone who is reverse engineering great NY pizza from a distance in a home oven, it's pretty incredible to me how close Scott is to being on the mark. Right down to the thickness factor to the texture of the tomatoes used for sauce. Hell, he even nailed how they do 20" slice pies and stretch smaller for to go pies from the same dough. That's a real thing here.

He was right about the thinner sauce being necessary for the melt. How do I know? I bake in Deck ovens and I've seen it and experienced it with different tomatoes.

The "Queens Style" is kind of a joke - It's the bridge between real NY style and Two Bros. They took NY dough balls and baked them on a screen at an inferior temperature. Within the next couple of weeks when I'm off I'll take a drive to both, buy a dough ball and a few slices, and tell you the thickness factor. It's probably spot on 0.079tf. It's also worth noting, unless you're a skilled pizza-maker you can read into TF completely wrong. I can take a 23oz dough ball and stretch something that eats just like a pie from Joe's at 20". I can give the same dough to another person and it's going to be way too thin in the center. I can stretch the same dough ball so it eats THICKER than that calculated TF.

One issue here is that there are many different sub-styles within NY style and that we all have different preferences and goals. You hold Joe's as the standard. A recent poster provided his thoughts on a number of topics, but he holds the Elites as the standard. My intent right now is to replicate Queens style. Is this the only style or best style? No. But I like it and have enjoyed trying to replicate it. You are right in that Scott was chasing Joe's too.

Thin sauce is crucial, if you've read my thread you'll see that I've stated repeatedly that thinning my sauce completely transformed my pizza.

There are hundreds of "Queens style" pizzerias across Queens and Long Island. And they are always busy when I'm there. These places have been around for a long time. The manager I've been speaking to has been making pizza like this since before you were born and thinks its a great product. Its unfortunate you dismiss it as a joke. Have you ever baked with one of their screens?

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on November 14, 2018, 09:51:08 AM
I can promise you it's not a low 50's hydration. I've literally purchased dough balls from Joe's and in my (multiyear, professional) experience the hydration was at least 60 given the nature of the flour. I've also seen them store them in the standup fridge, and I've seen the dough's dated (at least) a day prior before.

I've timed pizzas at Williamsburg pizza in the 5 minute range. I've talked to the guys running the ovens at Joe's - baking at least 600 when its busy...sometimes 625.

For someone who is reverse engineering great NY pizza from a distance in a home oven, it's pretty incredible to me how close Scott is to being on the mark. Right down to the thickness factor to the texture of the tomatoes used for sauce. Hell, he even nailed how they do 20" slice pies and stretch smaller for to go pies from the same dough. That's a real thing here.

He was right about the thinner sauce being necessary for the melt. How do I know? I bake in Deck ovens and I've seen it and experienced it with different tomatoes.



I don't recall ever seeing a post from Scott about thin sauce, nor milling tomatoes ever. Only posts about 4 minute bake times and using a piece of garlic the size of your finger nail.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on November 14, 2018, 10:05:56 AM
I can promise you it's not a low 50's hydration. I've literally purchased dough balls from Joe's and in my (multiyear, professional) experience the hydration was at least 60 given the nature of the flour. I've also seen them store them in the standup fridge, and I've seen the dough's dated (at least) a day prior before.

I've timed pizzas at Williamsburg pizza in the 5 minute range. I've talked to the guys running the ovens at Joe's - baking at least 600 when its busy...sometimes 625.

For someone who is reverse engineering great NY pizza from a distance in a home oven, it's pretty incredible to me how close Scott is to being on the mark. Right down to the thickness factor to the texture of the tomatoes used for sauce. Hell, he even nailed how they do 20" slice pies and stretch smaller for to go pies from the same dough. That's a real thing here.

He was right about the thinner sauce being necessary for the melt. How do I know? I bake in Deck ovens and I've seen it and experienced it with different tomatoes.

The "Queens Style" is kind of a joke - It's the bridge between real NY style and Two Bros. They took NY dough balls and baked them on a screen at an inferior temperature. Within the next couple of weeks when I'm off I'll take a drive to both, buy a dough ball and a few slices, and tell you the thickness factor. It's probably spot on 0.079tf. It's also worth noting, unless you're a skilled pizza-maker you can read into TF completely wrong. I can take a 23oz dough ball and stretch something that eats just like a pie from Joe's at 20". I can give the same dough to another person and it's going to be way too thin in the center. I can stretch the same dough ball so it eats THICKER than that calculated TF.

Umm, if you had the experience you say you do, youd realize turning the oven to 600 or 625 when its dinner is because of how much heat you lose. You arent baking at 625 lol. The deck is prob 475 or 500 at that point, even when its cranked to 600.

"The Queens style is a joke"

Its delicious. It has more in common with NY street pizza than a place like Williamsburg. I find hack-artisan pizza that only focuses on crust and bubbles with 7oz of cheese on a 20" pie to be a joke, but hey.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Hermit on November 14, 2018, 10:41:08 AM
The Queens screens are far, far superior. There is very little difference between them and going straight off the peel, texture wise. Id say the peel still makes a crispier pie and gives it more of a natural and rustic flavor, but the Queens screen is an excellent substitute. I could never go back to regular screens after using them.

Thanks, that's what I was getting at.  I don't use a stone in my oven, I have convection and the crust does well on the bake but I figure with less contact to metal and more radiant convection heat via air while good is not going to perform as well as more surface area heated metal assuming it heats up quickly.  I usually start to see my sauce boiling good at the 4m mark @500F using the cheap screens.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hotsawce on November 14, 2018, 12:38:26 PM
This is simply not factual. You can not POSSIBLY get the same result using different methods.

Thanks, that's what I was getting at.  I don't use a stone in my oven, I have convection and the crust does well on the bake but I figure with less contact to metal and more radiant convection heat via air while good is not going to perform as well as more surface area heated metal assuming it heats up quickly.  I usually start to see my sauce boiling good at the 4m mark @500F using the cheap screens.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Hermit on November 14, 2018, 01:13:58 PM
This is simply not factual. You can not POSSIBLY get the same result using different methods.

Im sorry I dont understand your post.  I am not looking to get the same results using different methods.  I'm looking to get a different result with a different method.  Until I actually get one of these queens style screens I won't know for sure.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hotsawce on November 15, 2018, 12:40:30 AM
It seems my response to you was deleted, yet yours still stands. How charming. So I'll keep it to the point.

I use an IR thermometer to temp my deck. I'm not the only one baking NY style in 5 minutes. When done right, you get the orange melt you're fabricating on that god-forsaken screen. Little Oven in Merced bakes at 610 in a Montague for about 5 minutes. Fazio's in Bushwick bakes in a Marsal MB60 set to 650. No issues with burned pies.

I'm doing it in an oven that isn't brick lined - so I have to be careful when my floor starts to lose temp. But having worked in numerous WFO spots the deck is a dream. Double stacked, I can alternate ovens and spots - so everything is pretty even. A brick lining/ceiling would alleviate the heat loss on top during peak periods.

All I can say about Amore, Lucia, Margherita...these are watered down NY pizzerias that only exist because of their insanely low prices. They can only survive in the areas of Queens they are in. No one here considers those spots destination pizzerias. They are okay for what they are but I've spoke to a number of pizza "experts" here who hold the same opinion as mine - nothing noteworthy and nothing that has changed their minds about screen bakes.

I also see you advocate for sanded screens. Again, bogus myth. These guys are running to restaurant depot and buying the cheapest screens they can get. Nothing special, at all.

My track record speaks for itself. I know what I'm talking about, and if there's anything I've learned in this industry here in NYC - the hobbyists here complicate everything these places are doing. The cold ferments, the bakers percents, all of it. Most spots have a bucket with a line on it they fill with water for one bag of flour, a quart container of salt and a small fingers pinch of yeast. It's nothing more.

Umm, if you had the experience you say you do, youd realize turning the oven to 600 or 625 when its dinner is because of how much heat you lose. You arent baking at 625 lol. The deck is prob 475 or 500 at that point, even when its cranked to 600.

"The Queens style is a joke"

Its delicious. It has more in common with NY street pizza than a place like Williamsburg. I find hack-artisan pizza that only focuses on crust and bubbles with 7oz of cheese on a 20" pie to be a joke, but hey.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on November 15, 2018, 12:55:14 AM
Most spots have a bucket with a line on it they fill with water for one bag of flour, a quart container of salt and a small fingers pinch of yeast. It's nothing more.

That's useful for continuous production.  Useless for communication on this forum.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hotsawce on November 15, 2018, 01:40:08 AM
Again, "queens style screen" is total BS. Go to restaurant depot or the Bowery and get the cheapest screen they have. That's what these places do. And they aren't durable, so they are cycled through quickly.

Im sorry I dont understand your post.  I am not looking to get the same results using different methods.  I'm looking to get a different result with a different method.  Until I actually get one of these queens style screens I won't know for sure.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hotsawce on November 15, 2018, 01:40:59 AM
Actually, it's not useless for communication. it's a very realistic look into production at actual pizzerias. If you can't recognize that you need a reality check  ???

That's useful for continuous production.  Useless for communication on this forum.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on November 15, 2018, 01:49:59 AM
Actually, it's not useless for communication. it's a very realistic look into production at actual pizzerias. If you can't recognize that you need a reality check  ???

 :-D  You just tried to contradict me by repeating what I said!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Essen1 on November 15, 2018, 03:51:39 AM
I'm not sure why members here are doubting Lou's expertise.

Please explain.



I don't know him personally, but I know he has a proven track record in NYC, having consulted and operated several successful shops in and around NYC. His pies speak for themselves.

Why anyone would choose to show their ignorance & arrogance when answering his posts, instead of asking questions and picking his brain for more info on NY pizza, is beyond me.

This forum should value people who know a bit more about professional pizza making and take leads from them instead of trying to discredit their knowledge.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on November 15, 2018, 06:25:33 AM
Amen, Mike. Echoes my thoughts exactly.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on November 15, 2018, 08:37:29 AM
I'm not sure why members here are doubting Lou's expertise.

Please explain.



Who doubted his expertise?   It seems opinions are being debated here.

Please explain.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on November 15, 2018, 09:50:35 AM
I'm not sure why members here are doubting Lou's expertise.

Please explain.



I don't know him personally, but I know he has a proven track record in NYC, having consulted and operated several successful shops in and around NYC. His pies speak for themselves.

Why anyone would choose to show their ignorance & arrogance when answering his posts, instead of asking questions and picking his brain for more info on NY pizza, is beyond me.

This forum should value people who know a bit more about professional pizza making and take leads from them instead of trying to discredit their knowledge.

He was insisting, definitively, that there's no such thing as a Queens style screen; when it has been documented extensively on this forum with video and photographic evidence. Respect to his professional pizza making experience, but that doesn't make everything he says gospel. 

Regardless, I know I'd love to hear and see more of Lou's award winning NY pizza as I've only seen his Detroit style.

Love to see more of Josh and Walter's pies too, both of them own and operate 5 star rated pizzerias. We all have so much to learn from each other. Hobbyist and professional alike.



Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Hermit on November 15, 2018, 12:11:27 PM
It's worth remembering that this isin't the shop talk section, so most of us in our respective threads are using home ovens and procuring the best equipment we can afford to mimic what we find out in the restaurants.

Seems this concept tends to get lost a lot, many a member here would be better served remembering this KEY point.

And if you dont mind, throw a compliment here or there at how impressive some of our members pies are baked in their home oven using consumer components.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Rolls on November 15, 2018, 12:20:04 PM
It's worth remembering that this isin't the shop talk section, so most of us in our respective threads are using home ovens and procuring the best equipment we can afford to mimic what we find out in the restaurants.

Seems this concept tends to get lost a lot, many a member here would be better served remembering this KEY point.

And if you dont mind, throw a compliment here or there at how impressive some of our members pies are baked in their home oven using consumer components.

 ^^^   Hear, hear!


Rolls
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hotsawce on November 15, 2018, 02:24:03 PM
Like I said, shops purchase screens from standard equipment suppliers, throw them into rotation, and toss them when they can't use them anymore. What you're observing is use. Furthermore, one might claim "for home use, then, you should sand them down to replicate use." However, they are likely baking 100s or 1000s of pies on that single screen before it gets to the point you might consider "sanded." I swear up and down that screen was basically "new" for a large portion of its life.

That being said, even if there was some mythical, altered screen that (for whatever reason) altered the properties of a typical screen bake it still doesn't change the fact this style of pizza is still a pizza baked on a screen. Following this debate, I've reached out to a number of trusted people that have had the pizza from these places to see if I was, somehow, missing something.

I received the same response. "Good for what it is (hot and fresh) but in no way destination worthy. Not worth a special trip." This is what I've been saying. Probably the best option if you're in the neighborhood and want cheap pizza but, really, you're doing yourself a disservice.

If I ever wanted to replicate this pie (I don't) I'd probably bake right on the rack, on the screen, then pop it onto the stone.

As for the inflammatory remarks about this being closer to NY street pizza than Williamsburg Pizza? Just....no. Don't even go there. By the way, Pete Wells followed up his Mama's Too review with a list of 10 best slices in the city. Hey Josh, a few of places you called "hacks" are on there...  :angel:

He was insisting, definitively, that there's no such thing as a Queens style screen; when it has been documented extensively on this forum with video and photographic evidence. Respect to his professional pizza making experience, but that doesn't make everything he says gospel. 

Regardless, I know I'd love to hear and see more of Lou's award winning NY pizza as I've only seen his Detroit style.

Love to see more of Josh and Walter's pies too, both of them own and operate 5 star rated pizzerias. We all have so much to learn from each other. Hobbyist and professional alike.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hotsawce on November 15, 2018, 02:25:40 PM
So when you're baking on a screen we take that point of view, but wasn't it you and another forum member that called out Scott for baking on steel in his home oven? Oh, the double standard....

I will always push loads of praise on all of the incredible pizza here. But I will absolutely set the record straight when it needs to be...

It's worth remembering that this isin't the shop talk section, so most of us in our respective threads are using home ovens and procuring the best equipment we can afford to mimic what we find out in the restaurants.

Seems this concept tends to get lost a lot, many a member here would be better served remembering this KEY point.

And if you dont mind, throw a compliment here or there at how impressive some of our members pies are baked in their home oven using consumer components.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Hermit on November 15, 2018, 02:35:07 PM
So when you're baking on a screen we take that point of view, but wasn't it you and another forum member that called out Scott for baking on steel in his home oven? Oh, the double standard....

I will always push loads of praise on all of the incredible pizza here. But I will absolutely set the record straight when it needs to be...

No I dont think that was me.  I've always said I use a screen because I am a horrible pizza launcher, primarily, and quite frankly I prefer the texture of the screen versus stone bake and not having to preheat my home oven for an hour to bake a pizza for 6 minutes.  Personal preference.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 15, 2018, 06:47:08 PM
...
I received the same response. "Good for what it is (hot and fresh) but in no way destination worthy. Not worth a special trip." This is what I've been saying. Probably the best option if you're in the neighborhood and want cheap pizza...

That's not what you said. You said it was a joke and not real NY pizza

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 15, 2018, 06:51:57 PM
Like I said, shops purchase screens from standard equipment suppliers, throw them into rotation, and toss them when they can't use them anymore. What you're observing is use.
...

This is not true. Below are the screens brand new. Have you ever seen these anywhere before? You had said the cheapest screens at RD or Bowery?



Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 15, 2018, 09:25:16 PM
...
All I can say about Amore, Lucia, Margherita...these are watered down NY pizzerias that only exist because of their insanely low prices. They can only survive in the areas of Queens they are in. No one here considers those spots destination pizzerias...


So they can only survive because the locals have been eating there consistently for 50 years. But that's bad because tourists dont go there.

See below for the prices. Far from insanely low.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on November 15, 2018, 10:00:57 PM
It seems my response to you was deleted, yet yours still stands. How charming. So I'll keep it to the point.

I use an IR thermometer to temp my deck. I'm not the only one baking NY style in 5 minutes. When done right, you get the orange melt you're fabricating on that god-forsaken screen. Little Oven in Merced bakes at 610 in a Montague for about 5 minutes. Fazio's in Bushwick bakes in a Marsal MB60 set to 650. No issues with burned pies.

I'm doing it in an oven that isn't brick lined - so I have to be careful when my floor starts to lose temp. But having worked in numerous WFO spots the deck is a dream. Double stacked, I can alternate ovens and spots - so everything is pretty even. A brick lining/ceiling would alleviate the heat loss on top during peak periods.

All I can say about Amore, Lucia, Margherita...these are watered down NY pizzerias that only exist because of their insanely low prices. They can only survive in the areas of Queens they are in. No one here considers those spots destination pizzerias. They are okay for what they are but I've spoke to a number of pizza "experts" here who hold the same opinion as mine - nothing noteworthy and nothing that has changed their minds about screen bakes.

I also see you advocate for sanded screens. Again, bogus myth. These guys are running to restaurant depot and buying the cheapest screens they can get. Nothing special, at all.

My track record speaks for itself. I know what I'm talking about, and if there's anything I've learned in this industry here in NYC - the hobbyists here complicate everything these places are doing. The cold ferments, the bakers percents, all of it. Most spots have a bucket with a line on it they fill with water for one bag of flour, a quart container of salt and a small fingers pinch of yeast. It's nothing more.

Dude, just stop. Margherita cheese slice is more expensive than Joe's.  :-D

Its ok to not know everything, I promise. I dont advocate for anything. I do what works for me, my pizzerias set up, and my employees. I utilize everything from the peel with flour to the peel with semolina, to a Queens style wire cloth, to a Detroit blue steel pan to a classic grandma pan. I can and do do it all and use every tool at my disposal.

It seems a lot of y'all had the Scott comment blow over your heads. I dont care what temp or time you bake at. Scott is the one who on one hand would rip guys like Walter for not edge stretching because its not "authentic NY" and then on the other hand advocate for high 60 hydration, and 72 hour cold ferments - two things that certainly arent "authentic" (nor are they wrong). My point was that Scott is a massive hypocrite, basically  :-D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on November 15, 2018, 10:08:39 PM
Also, there absolutely is a difference between regular RD screens and the one's made for all the famous Queens place like Gaby's, Margherita, Amore etc. I have spoken to the man on the phone, ordered his product, etc. Him and his father are the main supplier in NYC. Again, Lou is just arguing to argue without knowledge.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on November 15, 2018, 11:37:30 PM

It seems a lot of y'all had the Scott comment blow over your heads. I dont care what temp or time you bake at. Scott is the one who on one hand would rip guys like Walter for not edge stretching because its not "authentic NY" and then on the other hand advocate for high 60 hydration, and 72 hour cold ferments - two things that certainly arent "authentic" (nor are they wrong). My point was that Scott is a massive hypocrite, basically  :-D

It's fine to state you disagree with scott's techniques but IMO, calling him, or anyone on this forum a "massive hypocrite" is beyond the pale. Additionally, I'd never call someone out who's not here to defend themselves. Oddly Josh, I made this same point to Harry and he agreed.

best,
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on November 15, 2018, 11:59:39 PM
It's fine to state you disagree with scott's techniques but IMO, calling him, or anyone on this forum a "massive hypocrite" is beyond the pale. Additionally, I'd never call someone out who's not here to defend themselves. Oddly Josh, I made this same point to Harry and he agreed.

best,

I mean, I just dont know another word to describe his actions. I'm not even trying to be flagrant.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Essen1 on November 16, 2018, 12:18:44 AM

Who doubted his expertise? It seems opinions are being debated here.

Please explain.

Look at other threads and you'll know who.

It's worth remembering that this isin't the shop talk section, so most of us in our respective threads are using home ovens and procuring the best equipment we can afford to mimic what we find out in the restaurants.

Seems this concept tends to get lost a lot, many a member here would be better served remembering this KEY point.

And if you dont mind, throw a compliment here or there at how impressive some of our members pies are baked in their home oven using consumer components.

I don't care whether it's the Shop Talk section, or any other section on this forum, in order for that matter to be considered a KEY point.

When you have nonsensical statements such as, and I paraphrase here, ...the biggest advantage of a dedicated deck oven over a home oven is its depth, it goes to show that those members never even touched a deck oven, let alone baked in one, and have no idea what they are talking about.

If you don't have the expertise or knowledge, don't put out statements like that one above. It's simply misleading.

He was insisting, definitively, that there's no such thing as a Queens style screen; when it has been documented extensively on this forum with video and photographic evidence. Respect to his professional pizza making experience, but that doesn't make everything he says gospel. 

Regardless, I know I'd love to hear and see more of Lou's award winning NY pizza as I've only seen his Detroit style.

Love to see more of Josh and Walter's pies too, both of them own and operate 5 star rated pizzerias. We all have so much to learn from each other. Hobbyist and professional alike.


I'm not sure where you see Lou insisting on anything. He gave his advice.

There are roughly 32,000 pizza shop in NYC. How m many use those screens? Three, at the most? Where has it been documented extensively, besides on this forum, that those screens are being used and even exist in the pizza world?

I never claimed that his expertise, advice, tips and experience is gospel. But he's definitely a step or two above most of us and has always been a valuable source of information. Show some respect.

And bashing on Scott123 now, when he's gone, is pretty f.....d up. If those who bash him now, would know only half of his stuff, they wouldn't be posting things like that.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on November 16, 2018, 12:37:31 AM
It amazes me that even with the advantage of deck ovens, I haven't had a great commercial pizza in 30 years.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Essen1 on November 16, 2018, 12:42:43 AM
It amazes me that even with the advantage of deck ovens, I haven't had a great commercial pizza in 30 years.

Perhaps going to the wrong places?  ;)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: HansB on November 16, 2018, 04:48:16 AM

And bashing on Scott123 now, when he's gone,

FYI, Scott is not gone. He was visited the forum November 14, 2018, 04:22:04 PM.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 16, 2018, 07:10:21 AM
...
I'm not sure where you see Lou insisting on anything. He gave his advice.
...

Again, you guys aren't reading all the posts. I'd be happy to learn from some of his (and everyone else's) experience, but he didn't offer advice on the style of pizza I'm making. He said it was a joke and not real NY pizza.

...
There are roughly 32,000 pizza shop in NYC. How m many use those screens? Three, at the most?
...

Once again, you and Lou dont have any knowledge of these screens. I dont know why you need to pretend that you do. There are at least 3 pizzerias that use these within a half mile of my house (none of which have been named on this forum). And I'm just in some random suburban town. These screens are used all over Nassau and Queens. And, while I've only had slices from a handful of pizzerias in midtown Manhattan, I was surprised that one of the shops I did try used them there. Not surprisingly (to me), this was a shop that has survived in midtown for 50 years. Its not some new startup or discount shop.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on November 16, 2018, 10:48:25 AM
Look at other threads and you'll know who.

I don't care whether it's the Shop Talk section, or any other section on this forum, in order for that matter to be considered a KEY point.

When you have nonsensical statements such as, and I paraphrase here, ...the biggest advantage of a dedicated deck oven over a home oven is its depth, it goes to show that those members never even touched a deck oven, let alone baked in one, and have no idea what they are talking about.

If you don't have the expertise or knowledge, don't put out statements like that one above. It's simply misleading.

I'm not sure where you see Lou insisting on anything. He gave his advice.

There are roughly 32,000 pizza shop in NYC. How m many use those screens? Three, at the most? Where has it been documented extensively, besides on this forum, that those screens are being used and even exist in the pizza world?

I never claimed that his expertise, advice, tips and experience is gospel. But he's definitely a step or two above most of us and has always been a valuable source of information. Show some respect.

And bashing on Scott123 now, when he's gone, is pretty f.....d up. If those who bash him now, would know only half of his stuff, they wouldn't be posting things like that.

there isnt 32,000 pizza shops in NYC, dude. That's absurd  :-D

Several Queens places use them and many in Manhattan are starting. I know the family who makes them. Famous Queens joints like Gaby's, Margherita, Amore, Lucia, etc. I can get the list if you like.

"if those who bash him now, would know only half his stuff"

half of what? I've been making pizza less than 3 years, and opened a 5 star rated shop after 6 months of making pizza, and have made literally thousands of more pizza's than Scott. Unless Im missing something? Did he own a pizzeria? Did he work as head pizza maker at a shop? cause while the pictures I've seen of his pizza looked decent, they certainly did not stand out as anything special to me. Not compared to people like Walter, Norma, and %$#, even though I dont prefer the style you make, I'll take an Essen pie over Scott any day. Yours are well crafted. He is chasing some bizarre idea of NY pizza he himself cant even define beyond "90's Joe's on Carmine" and cant even replicate it himself. Scott is historically the most confrontational guy here (maybe Harry too  :-D) so the idea that he is some victim is funny. He is still on IG under the name DOPNYC and talks trash on pizzeria's and pizza makers. I've seen it.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on November 16, 2018, 10:55:21 AM
Again, you guys aren't reading all the posts. I'd be happy to learn from some of his (and everyone else's) experience, but he didn't offer advice on the style of pizza I'm making. He said it was a joke and not real NY pizza.

Once again, you and Lou dont have any knowledge of these screens. I dont know why you need to pretend that you do. There are at least 3 pizzerias that use these within a half mile of my house (none of which have been named on this forum). And I'm just in some random suburban town. These screens are used all over Nassau and Queens. And, while I've only had slices from a handful of pizzerias in midtown Manhattan, I was surprised that one of the shops I did try used them there. Not surprisingly (to me), this was a shop that has survived in midtown for 50 years. Its not some new startup or discount shop.

Yep, the guy who owns the biz, Mike, said they've significantly expanded into NYC. People are scared of change. But its funny, these are the same ones changing fermentation, bake times, oven temps, ingredients, but they hear screen, and suddenly cover their ears. These screens are ideal for super busy slice joints and depending on their set ups, allow you to stack unbaked slice pies and fire them off in the oven one after another. I still think the peel probably makes the best pie, but these "Queens screens" are pretty damn close to the texture of a straight deck pie. They are NOTHING like regular screens. Hell I can get a crispier bottom on these screens than some of my pies off a peel. Something about the wire cooking the bottom, along with the dough still touching the deck (unlike regular screens which lift them off the deck a centimeter or so and essentially steam the bottom) makes them even CRISPIER if you bake them right.

It's just weird the pizza world is constantly evolving and here is a secret tool that's starting to see the light of day and people are trashing it without trying it. Hell, Tony G uses straight up RD type screens at his slice shop. Dont see many here trashing that.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Hermit on November 16, 2018, 12:05:21 PM
Yep, the guy who owns the biz, Mike, said they've significantly expanded into NYC. People are scared of change. But its funny, these are the same ones changing fermentation, bake times, oven temps, ingredients, but they hear screen, and suddenly cover their ears. These screens are ideal for super busy slice joints and depending on their set ups, allow you to stack unbaked slice pies and fire them off in the oven one after another. I still think the peel probably makes the best pie, but these "Queens screens" are pretty damn close to the texture of a straight deck pie. They are NOTHING like regular screens. Hell I can get a crispier bottom on these screens than some of my pies off a peel. Something about the wire cooking the bottom, along with the dough still touching the deck (unlike regular screens which lift them off the deck a centimeter or so and essentially steam the bottom) makes them even CRISPIER if you bake them right.

It's just weird the pizza world is constantly evolving and here is a secret tool that's starting to see the light of day and people are trashing it without trying it. Hell, Tony G uses straight up RD type screens at his slice shop. Dont see many here trashing that.

Josh this is exactly what I was wanting to hear, perhaps you were hearing me when I asked, so thank you for making all those points.  I dont intend to get a deck bake with my home oven, but I will say that these cheap screens I am using are giving REALLY good performance, and I wanna move up from there.  I prefer my own pies to the deck bakes at the pizzaria, despite them having a better tasting cheese.  Luckily my sauce and dough are holding up the lesser ingredients.  I wouldnt mind improving my bake but I dont need too much work in that department as this convection is doing pretty good for melt thus far using high quality supermarket cheese (boars head)

I may experiment with putting in a stone and transferring to a stone for a portion of the late bake, but honestly I'd just like to try these screens straight and see how they do!  Yes I'm a screen bitch and I dont mind it a bit since I only bake 1 pie a day at the most.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Irishboy on November 16, 2018, 12:23:44 PM
I'm thinking about experimenting with lower hydration dough the lowest I've ever done was 60% if I went to 58% do you think that would be a noticeable difference on crust texture? I used to think I like the nice open crumb like artisan bread but the more and more I realized I like a pillow crust like you would find in a Hawaiian roll or some kind of dinner roll. I assume these are lower hydration?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 16, 2018, 06:01:48 PM
I'm thinking about experimenting with lower hydration dough the lowest I've ever done was 60% if I went to 58% do you think that would be a noticeable difference on crust texture? I used to think I like the nice open crumb like artisan bread but the more and more I realized I like a pillow crust like you would find in a Hawaiian roll or some kind of dinner roll. I assume these are lower hydration?

Experimenting is one way to find out! The pillow you describe makes me think of high oil too. My dough is 54% water and 4% oil.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on November 16, 2018, 06:34:20 PM
I realized I like a pillow crust like you would find in a Hawaiian roll or some kind of dinner roll. I assume these are lower hydration?

Dinner type rolls typically contain fat, sugar, and egg which are all tenderizers, among other properties.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Irishboy on November 16, 2018, 07:23:10 PM
I think I'm going to give to 54 or 55 % a try. See how I like the tighter crumb.

Hopefully one day I can turn off Pizza like you guys
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 16, 2018, 08:28:22 PM
Dinner type rolls typically contain fat, sugar, and egg which are all tenderizers, among other properties.

Yeah, I meant to go back an edit and didnt get a chance regarding the sugar. (Though I hadn't thought about the egg.)

Hawaiian rolls are sweet. And the softest crust I've ever tasted is Papa John's. IIRC the clone is something like 7% oil and 5% sugar.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 18, 2018, 07:32:40 PM
So I made my pan pizza last night for the first time in quite a while. While it was good (but had a bad undercrust bake and too much sauce) and had a nice shot of flavor from cheddar, it really didn't compare to my NY pies.

But, the sauce was tasty with the paste really working. I used Stanislaus Full Red Tomato Paste for the first time. I left it thick with 1 cup paste and 1 cup + 1 tbs water. This may accelerate me starting to experiment with paste on my NY pies. I'm thinking of starting with 50% strained 7/11 and 50% diluted paste. Will need more water to achieve the NY thinness.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on November 18, 2018, 08:30:32 PM
I saw that Greek pizza. It looked delicious but I wondered what the bottom looked like. I致e also been wondering about the role of the pan. I have eaten lots of this style but never made one. Was the pan needed because there was a lot of oil used between the crust and pan, or for some other reason? It looked like it would have baked fine on a stone, but not if oil was important to the bake.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 18, 2018, 09:15:42 PM
I saw that Greek pizza. It looked delicious but I wondered what the bottom looked like. I致e also been wondering about the role of the pan. I have eaten lots of this style but never made one. Was the pan needed because there was a lot of oil used between the crust and pan, or for some other reason? It looked like it would have baked fine on a stone, but not if oil was important to the bake.

That style is always in a pan. There is usually crisco in the pan I believe. I would probably have a tough time launching a pie that heavily topped.

Here is a link to the style I grew up with:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=691.msg534855#msg534855

And here is a link to one of my previous bakes (where I had a great undercrust using ghee).
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=691.msg535467#msg535467

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on November 18, 2018, 09:19:32 PM
Thanks, Matt. I remember the ghee post. Will check them both out.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Irishboy on November 18, 2018, 09:26:26 PM
That style is always in a pan. There is usually crisco in the pan I believe. I would probably have a tough time launching a pie that heavily topped.

Here is a link to the style I grew up with:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=691.msg534855#msg534855

And here is a link to one of my previous bakes (where I had a great undercrust using ghee).
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=691.msg535467#msg535467
Never see greek looks great alot of American style similarities but cut different from what it looks like
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 18, 2018, 09:37:43 PM
Never see greek looks great alot of American style similarities but cut different from what it looks like

Yes, many similarities. It's called "Greek" because the pizzerias are owned by Greek immigrants. Its all across New England, and particularly in the Boston area. A key flavor is cheddar cheese, which could be a result of the proximity to Vermont.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on November 18, 2018, 11:15:10 PM
When I was a student at Michigan State this place was in my regular pizza rotation. I was glad to learn tonight they are still open. Their pizzas had a decided sharpness to them that not all my friends liked. There may have been some feta on them, I知 not sure all these years later. They were oily and crispy and delicious.
http://www.thebellspizza.com/ (http://www.thebellspizza.com/)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: wotavidone on November 18, 2018, 11:20:03 PM
When I was a student at Michigan State this place was in my regular pizza rotation. I was glad to learn tonight they are still open. Their pizzas had a decided sharpness to them that not all my friends liked. There may have been some feta on them, I知 not sure all these years later. They were oily and crispy and delicious.
http://www.thebellspizza.com/ (http://www.thebellspizza.com/)
Feta cheese!!!  >:( The missus loves it and cuts into cubes ready to go. Bloody stuff won't melt properly even in the WFO, and it rolls off the pizza when ya launch it.
I reckon it's made from Krptonite. :P
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 19, 2018, 06:52:57 AM
When I was a student at Michigan State this place was in my regular pizza rotation. I was glad to learn tonight they are still open. Their pizzas had a decided sharpness to them that not all my friends liked. There may have been some feta on them, I知 not sure all these years later. They were oily and crispy and delicious.
http://www.thebellspizza.com/ (http://www.thebellspizza.com/)

Could be cheddar instead of Feta?

What interested me most is they serve "Grinders"! (A New England term.) I googled Michigan Grinder and read the history of Bellacino's Grinders restaurant. It was opened by the son of a Michigan pizzeria owner when he returned to Michigan after living in Hartford Connecticut.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on November 19, 2018, 07:02:14 AM
I went to a prep school in western MA for 3 years. We had grinders, frappes,... :D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Makisupapoliceman on November 19, 2018, 01:05:04 PM
I'm getting close! I made 7 changes versus last bake, and almost all of them worked  :chef:

1. 50/50 whole milk/part skim mozz (vs my usual 100% wm)
2. lowered my stone 1 rack, away from the upper heating element (and towards the bottom element)
3. went back up to 480 oven
4. went back up to 55% water
5. took my dough out earlier again (2.5 hours before bake)
6. first time using my new mesh screen after it was seasoned by a pizzeria
7. tried Bianco DiNapoli whole peeled

8:30 bake at 480, 7 minutes on the mesh screen, stone temp 515.

The melt was really nice. It had grease, but also some white, and the cheese stretched. I attribute this to a combination of adding part-skim and lowering the stone in the oven.

The dough/undercrust was a huge improvement. I liked the 55% hydration, the seasoned screen worked well, and likely the lower stone placement was big here too.

It didn't quite hit the mark flavor-wise, but I'm nitpicking. The sauce was just ok. And probably not enough hard cheese. I really miss the parm I was getting at the pizzeria distributor. The Bianco tomatoes were pretty good, but I like Cento Certified better. I think the salt in the tomatoes led the pizza to be too salty.

Next time I plan to do everything the same, but mess with the sauce a bit.

this may have been discussed already but how long do you ferment your dough, if you do at all. whats your process?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 19, 2018, 02:00:24 PM
this may have been discussed already but how long do you ferment your dough, if you do at all. whats your process?

I'll warn you that I'm not a crust guy (especially compared to many on this forum). I mix my dough in a bread machine with room temp water for about 9 minutes. Then I let it rest for 10 minutes before balling. It goes into my basement fridge, which runs cool, for a bit less than 2 days. Then 2.5 hours to warm up before baking.


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 19, 2018, 03:46:28 PM
With taking some time off around Thanksgiving and the kids still in school, I was able dedicate a midday for research. I needed to choose a borough, and was debating between Brooklyn and the Bronx...the Bronx won. I visited 2 pizzerias - Louie & Ernie's, and Tommy's on Tremont.

** Louie & Ernie's

Louie & Ernie's was really good. I loved the ratios. I knew going in that it would be a thin slice, but they didn't hold back on the sauce and cheese, or on the herbs and romano! The slice did have a taper, with the ultra thin middle being soft and floppy despite being re-heated slices. I'm repeating myself, but I was really happy with the amount of sauce and cheese on this pie, being happily surprised by the heavy-handed topping. It also had a good amount of pepper and other seasoning. My one complaint, and this is personal preference, is that I'm a bit of a wuss when it comes to romano, and they let the romano fly.

On my way out I saw them top a pie. I wish the pic was better, but there's a ton of romano on the center of the pie, and a good amount going around the pie too. And there were tons of specs of seasoning visible.

I really liked the atmosphere of this place too. Being there on the Monday before Thanksgiving at 11:45am, there were 2 other customers just relaxing at tables, while it seemed like 2 sisters and 1 brother (the pie maker) happily discussed Thanksgiving and the prior day's football games. I've never really spent time in the Bronx. But this was a place I'd happily sit and relax at for a while.

I recommend this slice, and highly recommend it for anyone that likes romano.

**Tommy's

I知 never trusting of re-heated slices, so I generally like to order a whole pie. But given I was going to 2 pizzerias I went with what they had.
 
Tommy痴 I think suffered from the re-heat.  I知 pretty sure I had slices from 2 different pies. One was totally toasted. The other was much better. It had a nice melt of pre-shredded Grande (not sure which one). But it still didn稚 have enough sauce for me. Watching him top a pie, it didn稚 seem so undersauced, so maybe this slice also had re-heat issues, or maybe it just wasn稚 enough sauce for the amount of cheese. But I知 becoming a sauce-hound. No dry slices for me.

It was still a cool place to stop in. I never had such a clean look into a deck oven. Talk about seasoned! I was skeptical of the cornmeal on the bench and peel, but it wasn稚 offensive. If I知 ever there again, I壇 get a fresh pie.

**Louie & Ernie's pics below

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 19, 2018, 03:46:51 PM
Tommy's pics
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on November 19, 2018, 04:35:17 PM
I think I'm going to give to 54 or 55 % a try. See how I like the tighter crumb.

Hopefully one day I can turn off Pizza like you guys
I routinely (used to) make dough at home with 62% hydration, 60% water 2%oil. It's easy to get a tighter crumb, just stretch the edge thinner. Maybe even flatten it. The crust came out eggshell brittle and crunchy. IMO going into the 64% - 66%+ region is when things get funky.

After eating tons of mellow mushroom, I hate big crust, sure it looks pretty but it's a pain to eat. I make my crust as small as possible now.

I haven't experimented enough with lower hydration though. Once I move again, I should be making pizza at home.
 
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on November 19, 2018, 04:50:57 PM
It is not all about the H20 - how it is handles makes a difference two from the other night where 59 or 60% H2O (can't remember exactly)....
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on November 19, 2018, 04:51:13 PM
Matt, great reporting...Thanks for sharing . I love the thinness and the bottom color of Tommy's especially, but they both look great.  These are just simple and classic, the definition to me, of NY pizza.  I also love that apparently Louis and Ernie's owners live above the shop!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on November 19, 2018, 04:51:35 PM
Tommy's looks okay.  Louie and Ernie's looks really good.  I like restraint on the Romano (especially pecorino), but too much doesn't ruin it for me. I can take more if it's domestic cow's milk.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on November 19, 2018, 04:53:19 PM
Wondering where you've been, Mr, Rokkor!


So wait, you "hate" those beautiful puffy rim pies you were baking??!! ???
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 19, 2018, 05:54:36 PM
Matt, great reporting...Thanks for sharing . I love the thinness and the bottom color of Tommy's especially, but they both look great.  These are just simple and classic, the definition to me, of NY pizza.  I also love that apparently Louis and Ernie's owners live above the shop!

More than happy to report. It's a tough job, but somebody's gotta do it  ;D

Louie & Ernie's sure takes basement pizza to a new level
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on November 19, 2018, 05:54:38 PM
sorry matt, I should have PMed you to try the sausage at lou and ernies. It looks awful, rolls off the pie, but it's really good.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 19, 2018, 06:14:20 PM
sorry matt, I should have PMed you to try the sausage at lou and ernies. It looks awful, rolls off the pie, but it's really good.

No worries, I knew about it from your review and from pics on yelp. I considered trying it, but stuck with my no topping rule.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on November 19, 2018, 06:52:30 PM
With taking some time off around Thanksgiving and the kids still in school, I was able dedicate a midday for research. I needed to choose a borough, and was debating between Brooklyn and the Bronx...the Bronx won. I visited 2 pizzerias - Louie & Ernie's, and Tommy's on Tremont.

** Louie & Ernie's

Louie & Ernie's was really good. I loved the ratios. I knew going in that it would be a thin slice, but they didn't hold back on the sauce and cheese, or on the herbs and romano! The slice did have a taper, with the ultra thin middle being soft and floppy despite being re-heated slices. I'm repeating myself, but I was really happy with the amount of sauce and cheese on this pie, being happily surprised by the heavy-handed topping. It also had a good amount of pepper and other seasoning. My one complaint, and this is personal preference, is that I'm a bit of a wuss when it comes to romano, and they let the romano fly.

On my way out I saw them top a pie. I wish the pic was better, but there's a ton of romano on the center of the pie, and a good amount going around the pie too. And there were tons of specs of seasoning visible.

I really liked the atmosphere of this place too. Being there on the Monday before Thanksgiving at 11:45am, there were 2 other customers just relaxing at tables, while it seemed like 2 sisters and 1 brother (the pie maker) happily discussed Thanksgiving and the prior day's football games. I've never really spent time in the Bronx. But this was a place I'd happily sit and relax at for a while.

I recommend this slice, and highly recommend it for anyone that likes romano.

**Tommy's

I知 never trusting of re-heated slices, so I generally like to order a whole pie. But given I was going to 2 pizzerias I went with what they had.
 
Tommy痴 I think suffered from the re-heat.  I知 pretty sure I had slices from 2 different pies. One was totally toasted. The other was much better. It had a nice melt of pre-shredded Grande (not sure which one). But it still didn稚 have enough sauce for me. Watching him top a pie, it didn稚 seem so undersauced, so maybe this slice also had re-heat issues, or maybe it just wasn稚 enough sauce for the amount of cheese. But I知 becoming a sauce-hound. No dry slices for me.

It was still a cool place to stop in. I never had such a clean look into a deck oven. Talk about seasoned! I was skeptical of the cornmeal on the bench and peel, but it wasn稚 offensive. If I知 ever there again, I壇 get a fresh pie.

**Louie & Ernie's pics below

Love to hear (and see) these first hand reports from longstanding historic slice shops. That's a classic looking slice from Louie & Ernie's!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on November 19, 2018, 08:12:33 PM
Wondering where you've been, Mr, Rokkor!


So wait, you "hate" those beautiful puffy rim pies you were baking??!! ???
Well now that I think about, it has to do more with the pizza at my job than my very own.
Their dough is dense and heavy.

I've contemplated buying a stone, but I have other things to put money towards first.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 19, 2018, 08:27:19 PM
Well now that I think about, it has to do more with the pizza at my job than my very own.
Their dough is dense and heavy.

I've contemplated buying a stone, but I have other things to put money towards first.

You're working at a pizzeria? If yes, that's awesome! What's your role?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on November 19, 2018, 09:47:17 PM
You're working at a pizzeria? If yes, that's awesome! What's your role?
I work at mellow mushroom as a "pizzz cook", I'm on the line stretching dough, topping it and launching it.
Working their has greatly expanded my creativity, and palette, for instance I never knew how much Ioved roasted tomatos. Or the fact that feta and ricotta can actually taste good on pizza, sadly food service feta and ricotta are on a different level compared to what you buy in stores.

It taught me a lot, for instance BBQ chicken pizza is best made as a baseless pizza with BBQ swirled on top.

I never knew how to make a calzone, but now I'm regarded as the calzone master lol. I also quickly learned consistent proper portioning of ingredients. But the coolest thing I learned was a proper edge stretch, like how the pro's do it. This was a huge wake up call, yes you can get a taperless edge without "classic" edge stretching, but it takes WAY too long and it's not consistent.
Was definitely worth it working there, it improved me quite a bit.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 23, 2018, 11:12:53 AM
For tomorrow's bake I'm going to finally try a second stone in my kitchen oven for a "ceiling".

My options for distance between the stones are 6.25" or 4". I'm going to try 6.25".

I did a test pre-heat that was very successful. Preheated at 460 for 1:40 and the lower stone was 460-470 and the underside of the upper stone was 470-480.

The two stones are identical, with the upper stone upside down.

I may preheat a bit warmer for the real bake tomorrow.


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on November 23, 2018, 02:20:24 PM
What change or result are you hoping will happen? That sounds terse but isn稚 how I meant it.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 23, 2018, 02:29:19 PM
What change or result are you hoping will happen? That sounds terse but isn稚 how I meant it.

Not 100% certain, but maybe a bit different melt, and likely more browning on the rim. Was thinking more about deck oven bakes (not that adding a stone from amazon is going to turn my oven into a deck) and also looking back at some of my blackstone bakes which had nice melts. I'm wondering how much of my success in the Blackstone was a result of the upper stone (given I baked with with the flame way down).

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on November 24, 2018, 01:43:41 AM
It will be good to see the effect this has...thanks for doing this test, Matt
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 24, 2018, 09:07:04 PM
Only a few bakes ago I said that my pizza was exactly to my taste. Yet today I decided to change a bunch of things. I'm still not sure exactly what to make of this pie, but it definitely wasn't as good as usual.

For easier reference, my last pie is here:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=51924.msg551287#msg551287

Changes:


1) Reduced TF to 0.09125 - I liked the thinness

2) 40% of my sauce was diluted paste - it was a nice taste, but didn't seem quite right. It really reminded me of my pan pizzas where I use paste. Maybe if I try a smaller amount of paste it will give me the extra oomph without taking over.

3) Tried grocery store oregano for the first time in a very long time. I used a good amount of it, but it was still too far in the background for me. Will likely go back to my usual Sicilian oregano next week.

4) Took my dough out 20 minutes earlier (full 3 hours before opening the dough) - still had bubbles  >:(

5) The biggie, as described a couple posts above, I added a second stone into the oven as a "ceiling". I pre-heated at 470, which resulted in a lower stone temp of 470-480 and upper stone temp of 475-485. Then as usual turned the oven up to 500 at launch.

When I moved the pie from the screen directly to the stone 7 minutes into the bake, I could see the cheese was melting very slowly, and was super white. Moving to the stone started a rapid sauce boil, but only in a couple spots near the rim. The rest of the pie stayed white, so I gave it more time, ending up with a 10 minute bake.

The result was still a white melt. I didn't like the look of it. And it had some texture issues. Though there were some interesting takeaways:
- It seemed like I had a huge amount of cheese, despite using 12.5 ounces like last bake (and down from 13.5 a from a few bakes ago).
- Flavor wise it was lacking the orange sauce meld, which was disappointing. But it did have a bit of milky cheese flavor
- It did have some resemblance to pizzeria melts I've experienced before, albeit not my preferred ones.
So the question is whether I go back to one stone, or try again with either a hotter upper stone, or moving the upper stone closer to the lower stone, or removing the screen earlier, or using less cheese. I'm leaning towards scrapping the second stone as I was very happy with my bakes before started messing with it.

Edit: its entirely possible the my ratios aren't right yet since I moved to 16" pies. I may need to reduce the mozz.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on November 24, 2018, 10:17:29 PM
Tbh, both the top and bottom could have used an extra minute in the oven. Also 470 seems a bit low for the classic NY melt. Bumping it to 500 at launch doesn't mean you'll even reach that temp. Certainly the stone won't. Plus you're losing heat on the launch. Try preheating at 500 and then setting to 525. Lately ive been baking at 525 and I feel my pizzas look better than ever. Sometimes 550 cooks the bottom too quick and 500 seems to take too long, though since I sell pizza to the public I have to keep an eye on speed.

You could take that bottom darker and still get your chew by letting the pizza sit for an extra 2 to 3 mins before eating.

Also another trick with these type of screens is you can let the top cook to about 95% of where you want it before putting it on the stone. These Queens screens are specifically designed so the top and bottom cook evenly. A lot of places dont even put them on the brick. You dont need to unless you're busy and the stones are getting cold.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Jackitup on November 24, 2018, 10:38:32 PM
The bottom color is about right where my wife likes it but I agree, the edge is a bit too blond. I say go full out at 550ー How long was your pre-heat? With my huge Fibrament I go 1 hour, and I assume you're using an IR gun. On 2nd look at the last one you linked, if I'm being picky and you're asking, that could've used a titch more heat too. Next one go high, I doubt you have to drop much, if any!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Essen1 on November 25, 2018, 01:57:09 AM
I am sorry but your pies, even the one you linked to, look anemic, undercook and raw. At least the outer crust (you didn't provide a crumb shot). I agree with Jon and Josh that you should up the temp to the max.

Screens suck a lot of heat from the spot you place them in and a lot of pizzerias do that type of thing to lower the heat, and to control deck temps, in certain hot spots (empty screens). You don't have that luxury.

Your oven will not recover, nor maintain heat and temp, like a professional one, especially after you opened the door to put your pie in. So upping the temp to 500 F once you launched, is futile.

Instead, take your stone, throw it away and buy a square or rectangular one. Then get the new one as hot as possible, and monitor the bottom of the pie. Place a screen underneath once it reaches your desired browning.

P.S.: Those Bed and Bath stones suck. Bite the bullet and order a 1" thick stone from californiapizzastones.com. Best on the market.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 25, 2018, 07:20:01 AM
Yes, I get it. It was a worthwhile experiment, but the second stone had all kinds of impacts. I could play around with it to make it work, but I mostly likely wont go down that route.


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Essen1 on November 25, 2018, 10:43:31 PM
Yes, I get it. It was a worthwhile experiment, but the second stone had all kinds of impacts. I could play around with it to make it work, but I mostly likely wont go down that route.

Matt,

Just to clarify,...my post above wasn't intended to come across as mean or condescending.

You make good looking pies, there's no doubt about that. But the last few lacked severely in color and looked raw and undercooked. You can do better than this.

I did the 2-stone thing, but in a different way. I started on the lower stone, then moved the pie to the upper stone to finish it. I also covered the vent of my home oven at that time with the lid of my cast iron cooker. Made a huge difference.

Also, I got rid of round, flimsy stones a long, long time ago. A lot of valuable heat passes them by and goes straight out your oven's vent. Not good.

I suggest a rectangular one, at least .75 inches thick, on the bottom and the same on top but without those "feet", or ridges, if you will. Keep them no more than 4 - 6 inches apart and when you're ready to move the pie up, kick in the broiler two minutes prior and you'll be fine.

Good luck.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Hanglow on November 26, 2018, 05:12:37 AM
I've liked using firebricks from my wfo as a base in my kitchen oven.  I can fit 6 in on a shelf and they weigh 1kg each so add a decent amount of mass to the oven compared to a small stone at least. They are also cheap if I had to buy more, only a couple of 」 each. Admittedly I've only used them this way a few times

Might be worth considering. You could also get creative with putting more in too
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on November 28, 2018, 09:06:22 PM
No offense taken...I'm always looking to improve and constructive feedback helps. But I dont want to overreact to a failed/miscalibrated experiment. I plan to go back to basics this week, even going back down to 14".


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 01, 2018, 08:52:57 PM
Well this was a different and delicious bake!  :chef:

I was trying to go back to my usual 14" pie, with a few small changes (thanks to you guys blasting my botched prior pie...it's necessary given my stubbornness.)

But a few more accidental changes occurred too.

Changes

- Very thin - I was trying for a small reduction of TF to 0.09125 and due to a warm dough and being used to 16" pies, I overstretched this by an inch. 15" pie at 400 grams = TF of 0.08. I stretched it inconsistently, with half the pie an even very thin, and half the pie a bit thicker. I had the thin side while it was hot and it was damn good.

- Hotter bake - Stone temp of 500-510 via pre-heating at 480 (and slightly longer than usual). (Jon, I use an IR gun and actually rotate my stone towards the end of the pre-heat. This pre-heat was a full 2 hours.)

- Stone was one rack higher, 3rd from the bottom.

- Dough was super warm. Warmed up for 3 hours with a lot of this time sitting directly in front of my oven. This helped lead to my overstretch. But I also think this led to more rim browning. The stone placement likely contributed too, but I've found previously that my warm dough browns more.

- I had bad luck in picking a frozen bag of 7/11 which yielded less than a cup of strained tomato, while I normally use 1+1/4 cups. I added a bit of heavily diluted paste to get it to 1 cup. So it was still less than normal, and I kept some of my seasoning amounts the same, so it was an even more heavily seasoned sauce.

- Sauce amount was slightly heaping 3/4 cup + ~ 1 TBS

- Cheese was 9oz, which was my usual amount for a 14" pie, so it was thinner than usual given the skin was 15"

- Bake was 8:30 with 7:15 on screen and 1:15 on stone

Thoughts
- I really liked the thin hot slice, with lots of sauce, good amount of cheese, and lots of seasoning.
- Probably too much garlic
- The paste adds an interesting dimension, but even in the small amount, I don't think I like it in my NY pie
- Still cant get rid of the ugly bubbles
- The thicker slices probably could have used more cheese

Next time
- Try TF 0.085
- 9oz mozz
- Back to my usual sauce
- Warm the dough up again, but don't overstretch
- Same bake protocol


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: HansB on December 01, 2018, 08:55:00 PM
That looks really good Matt!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 09, 2018, 02:46:03 PM
My schedule was going to be messed up this weekend, so I went out for pizza Friday night (see posts above). I decided to do a Sunday afternoon bake. My kids each made small pizzas, and I made an experimental one.

Loads of changes (and accidentally overstretched again), but the flavor is still all about the sauce.

Changes:
- Added a bit of romano to the sauce, replacing 1 tsp of parm with romano. This was awesome. It wasn't romano overload, but was there in the background. Will do this again.
- No garlic in the sauce and didn't miss it.
- Raised bake temp to 535, stone temp 515-530. Seemed good, hard to fully judge given some of the other changes. Bake time was 8:15 with 6:45 on the screen.
- Intended a TF of 0.085, but it overstretched on me, 16" at 371 grams is TF of 0.065. This was too thin, but still enjoyable.
- Changed my dough to 62% water, 0% oil (from my usual 54% water, 4% oil). Also only 12 hour CF. I really have no idea what the impact of this was. The crust was so thin I didn't even notice it.
- I didn't want to defrost my regular cheese. Ended up with 50% grande low fat and 50% whole milk grocery store Galbani. Seemed ok. This was a sauce-heavy pie as I only had so much cheese ready and I overstretched. I'd guess it was 10oz of mozz

Next time:
- Same romano/sauce
- Similar bake temp
- Try again for 14"
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Dangerous Salumi on December 09, 2018, 03:42:08 PM
I壇 eat the last two pies even if they fell on the floor.

Are you trying to make an NYC street slice at home?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 09, 2018, 03:43:28 PM
I am indeed!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Dangerous Salumi on December 09, 2018, 03:53:38 PM
I am indeed!

I cant taste them from here but if they do taste as good as they look I壇 say the project is finished.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 09, 2018, 04:44:01 PM
Thanks! Several bakes ago I proclaimed victory,  saying that I achieved everything I was looking for. But only a couple days later I was already planning changes.

Sauce is something I'll always tinker with. For one thing, I have a love/hate relationship with romano and can't make up my mind. (And my taste is evolving at the same time.)

Where I have the most work to do is the crust. It's always been an afterthought for me.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Dangerous Salumi on December 09, 2018, 04:50:58 PM
Thanks! Several bakes ago I proclaimed victory,  saying that I achieved everything I was looking for. But only a couple days later I was already planning changes.

Sauce is something I'll always tinker with. For one thing, I have a love/hate relationship with romano and can't make up my mind. (And my taste is evolving at the same time.)

Where I have the most work to do is the crust. It's always been an afterthought for me.

I will buy a bag of Romano. Ive been using Parm/Rom mix.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jvp123 on December 09, 2018, 04:51:41 PM
I cant taste them from here but if they do taste as good as they look I壇 say the project is finished.

 ^^^.  You've got the melt down pat and the thin rim too.  Even the bottoms that have the iconic queens screen stamp on them.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Essen1 on December 11, 2018, 01:32:11 AM
Matt,

I liked your write up.

Hopefully, those visits gave you some valuable insight in your quest to replicate those iconic slices at home. Despite that you favor mesh screens

Your last pie looked a whole lot better than the previous efforts.

I especially like the color of the rim, even though I think the rim should be a bit more pronounced....and browned. Maybe consider going a bit higher in dough ball weight, and move out of your comfort zone of creating these extremely small rims.

As always, no offense, and I hope you don't take it as such.  :)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 12, 2018, 09:48:22 PM
Thanks for the feedback and suggestions Mike
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 12, 2018, 09:54:40 PM
As a note for myself for future reference and anyone reading through this thread, last weekend I went to 2 pizzerias, which was a great learning experience and gave me alot to think about.

NY Pizza Suprema inspired me to start experimenting with romano again, and Joe's has me thinking about my crust.

Below is a link to my review, pictures, and subsequent debate about the pizzerias.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=55305.msg555629#msg555629

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Dangerous Salumi on December 13, 2018, 06:17:39 AM
As a note for myself for future reference and anyone reading through this thread, last weekend I went to 2 pizzerias, which was a great learning experience and gave me alot to think about.

NY Pizza Suprema inspired me to start experimenting with romano again, and Joe's has me thinking about my crust.

Below is a link to my review, pictures, and subsequent debate about the pizzerias.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=55305.msg555629#msg555629

 ;D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on December 14, 2018, 12:07:41 PM
Matt, my mom was a writer and she maintained that a great writer needed to do a lot of reading. I think the same holds true for pizza: to make great pizza, you need to eat a lot of other people's pizza.

best,
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Dangerous Salumi on December 14, 2018, 12:13:19 PM
Matt, my mom was a writer and she maintained that a great writer needed to do a lot of reading. I think the same holds true for pizza: to make great pizza, you need to eat a lot of other people's pizza.

best,

 ^^^
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on December 15, 2018, 11:44:22 AM
Matt,

I liked your write up.

Hopefully, those visits gave you some valuable insight in your quest to replicate those iconic slices at home. Despite that you favor mesh screens

Your last pie looked a whole lot better than the previous efforts.

I especially like the color of the rim, even though I think the rim should be a bit more pronounced....and browned. Maybe consider going a bit higher in dough ball weight, and move out of your comfort zone of creating these extremely small rims.

As always, no offense, and I hope you don't take it as such.  :)

The small rim is very common in Queens style street pizza.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 15, 2018, 04:37:52 PM
Matt,

I liked your write up.

Hopefully, those visits gave you some valuable insight in your quest to replicate those iconic slices at home. Despite that you favor mesh screens

Your last pie looked a whole lot better than the previous efforts.

I especially like the color of the rim, even though I think the rim should be a bit more pronounced....and browned. Maybe consider going a bit higher in dough ball weight, and move out of your comfort zone of creating these extremely small rims.

As always, no offense, and I hope you don't take it as such.  :)

Thanks. Keep in mind my current goal is to replicate Queens style pizza, not Joe's. Although while I was thinking that I'd eventually finish the Queens quest then move on to something else (faster/thinner slices or grandma or fresh mozz etc), I am starting to weave a bit where I'm taking bits and pieces from different pizzerias and styles to create something tailored to my own preferences.

I wouldn't say that I favor the mesh screens. But in addition to keeping with the Queens style, I've had good melts with them, and I like that they will allow me to bake a pie larger than 14" in my 16" oven. (I'll admit too that while my launch skills were solid, knowing that I'll have a round pie and no launch issue is a nice perk of using a screen.) I'm also not convinced that the screen is better than baking directly on stone. I suspect I'd get a better crust on stone, but I don't want to mess with my melt. I will experiment with stone bakes at some point though.

I don't know why you say my rims should be larger and more browned. I know that you (and many here) favor that style, but it's personal preference. Below are some examples of Queens pies where the rims are not large or brown. But more importantly than that, I'm simply not a fan of rims and so it is not a focus of mine. I love sauce and melted cheese, and I've always thought that eating the rim is a negative as I'll get to eat less sauce and cheese. (May be an unusual philosophy, but it reminds me of when I was a kid I'd always choose 2 hamburgers over 1 hamburger and fries.) While growing up maybe half the pizza I ate was party cut, and I always went for the rim-less center squares. Just my preference.

Below are pics from Lucia, Amore and Dani's

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 15, 2018, 04:51:23 PM
Today I received sauce from another of my local pizzerias, and again it was well seasoned. This place has been around since 1966 (though I don't know how it's changed over time.) The most dominant seasoning visually was fresh basil. I think I found some dried oregano, and maybe a bit of fresh oregano too. I can never identify the small dark specs. I suspect they are just really small pieces of fresh basil, but it's hard to say.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Dangerous Salumi on December 15, 2018, 05:07:39 PM
Today I received sauce from another of my local pizzerias, and again it was well seasoned. This place has been around since 1966 (though I don't know how it's changed over time.) The most dominant seasoning visually was fresh basil. I think I found some dried oregano, and maybe a bit of fresh oregano too. I can never identify the small dark specs. I suspect they are just really small pieces of fresh basil, but it's hard to say.

Honestly I use a spiced up thickened sauce for my Detroit pizza. There are so many overpowering flavors going on there.

However,  I want to taste the sourdough, cheese and tomatoes when I知 making NYC pizza. That痴 why I really prefer it to other styles. I use 7/11 right out of the can. I値l soon make my NYC pies with different cheeses and different pepperoni. I壇 even drive up to Vermont Smoke to get some of their good stuff. Ill call them on Monday.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Little bean on December 15, 2018, 05:31:39 PM
Honestly I use a spiced up thickened sauce for my Detroit pizza. There are so many overpowering flavors going on there.

However,  I want to taste the sourdough, cheese and tomatoes when I知 making NYC pizza. That痴 why I really prefer it to other styles. I use 7/11 right out of the can. I値l soon make my NYC pies with different cheeses and different pepperoni. I壇 even drive up to Vermont Smoke to get some of their good stuff. Ill call them on Monday.

Can you link to your New York style pies
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 15, 2018, 06:10:46 PM
Honestly I use a spiced up thickened sauce for my Detroit pizza. There are so many overpowering flavors going on there.

However,  I want to taste the sourdough, cheese and tomatoes when I知 making NYC pizza. That痴 why I really prefer it to other styles. I use 7/11 right out of the can. I値l soon make my NYC pies with different cheeses and different pepperoni. I壇 even drive up to Vermont Smoke to get some of their good stuff. Ill call them on Monday.

To each his own. For me, oregano is a key flavor that I miss when it's not there.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Dangerous Salumi on December 15, 2018, 06:13:30 PM
Can you link to your New York style pies

Just what I have posted here. We don稚 have a website for our pizza yet.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 15, 2018, 06:18:26 PM
Can you link to your New York style pies

I think this thread has them
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=49530.msg551677#msg551677

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Dangerous Salumi on December 15, 2018, 06:20:18 PM
I think this thread has them
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=49530.msg551677#msg551677

Thanks
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Little bean on December 15, 2018, 07:35:45 PM
I think this thread has them
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=49530.msg551677#msg551677
Got it, thank you Matt
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on December 15, 2018, 07:45:58 PM
Honestly I use a spiced up thickened sauce for my Detroit pizza. There are so many overpowering flavors going on there.

However,  I want to taste the sourdough, cheese and tomatoes when I知 making NYC pizza. That痴 why I really prefer it to other styles. I use 7/11 right out of the can. I値l soon make my NYC pies with different cheeses and different pepperoni. I壇 even drive up to Vermont Smoke to get some of their good stuff. Ill call them on Monday.

I'd say that smoked and spiced up pepperoni is more overpowering than anything we are talking about putting in the sauce.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 16, 2018, 02:50:54 PM
This bake was only ok, a bit underwhelming. I'm not really sure what caused the lack of oomph, but my guess is the melt.

My TF was dropped to 0.085, though it was inconsistently stretched. The thinnest slices were thin and crisp (too crisp), though I really liked the undercrust bake on the thicker slices (see closeup of half eaten slice).

Temp was high, with stone 510-520 and oven at 515. (Pre-heat was 515). 8:00 bake with the final 2:00 direct on stone. There was a ton of sauce boil, which we often talk about as helping the melt, but in this case I'm not sure if it took my cheese too far. Visually I thought the melt looked good though.

Or maybe my reduction of parm by another tsp and reduction of romano by 1/4 tsp was the problem.

Next time:
Increase TF
Keep the hot stone, but reduce oven temp and reduce time on stone (in an effort to improve melt)
Go back to 1 tsp romano
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Dangerous Salumi on December 16, 2018, 02:52:24 PM
Nice job.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Little bean on December 16, 2018, 03:50:11 PM
What type of cheese is that Matt?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 16, 2018, 04:00:18 PM
Grande east coast blend (which is 50/50 whole milk/part-skim)

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on December 16, 2018, 04:10:29 PM
I so wish I could get that out here - looks like it is the perfect cheese for a NY pie!!!!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jvp123 on December 16, 2018, 05:38:38 PM
Nice job.

 ^^^
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hotsawce on December 17, 2018, 02:15:29 AM
Grande melts great. Of note - the "thinner" your sauce the better the melt will be on the cheese. I don't know why that is, but I see it in deck oven bakes. A thinner tomato product, like alta cucina with the juice blended well gives me that melt with no spotting/orange hue where the cheese kind of "becomes one" with the sauce.

I think the screen helps slow the heat transfer to the sauce/cheese from the bottom up so it's probably why you see that melt on a number of screen baked pies, but to get an even more controlled melt you might consider thin sauce if you haven't already.

Grande east coast blend (which is 50/50 whole milk/part-skim)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on December 17, 2018, 03:52:27 AM
I wish I could get Grande for a decent price.  A local pizzeria will sell it to me for $8/lb.. I'll stick with Saputo for $1.90.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on December 18, 2018, 09:48:26 AM
matt, looks wonderful! I noticed the cheese melted to the edge and over the crust in one place. I've had that happen a couple of times, not sure why, any ideas?

my local pizzeria charges me $5/lb for east coast blend, they showed me their invoice, I think they pay around $2/lb. Matt, where are you getting your mozz?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 18, 2018, 11:38:56 AM
Thanks QD! I think too much sauce too close to the edge causes the cheese spillover. Kindof annoying, but gives me incentive to eat the rim ;D

I'll pm you about my ingredient sourcing.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on December 18, 2018, 01:34:35 PM
I wish I could get Grande for a decent price.  A local pizzeria will sell it to me for $8/lb.. I'll stick with Saputo for $1.90.

Grande goes for 2.75 a pound here. 8 bucks a pound is rough stuff lol
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hotsawce on December 18, 2018, 02:21:27 PM
I've seen grande blocks as low as 2.51 in NYC

Grande goes for 2.75 a pound here. 8 bucks a pound is rough stuff lol
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 18, 2018, 04:41:53 PM
I've seen grande blocks as low as 2.51 in NYC

By the case only, or individual loaves?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Little bean on December 18, 2018, 04:58:32 PM
By the case only, or individual loaves?
I don稚 know about nyc but I知 not aloud to break cases here, I have seen it for the same price in the Cleveland market.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on December 18, 2018, 04:59:43 PM
Endico Cheese Company in Brewster NY sells Grande Shred for 3:00 a pound.   I would try a few Pizzerias who would sell it for a reasonable price.  Mine in Florida pays under 14 for a 5 pound bag of East Coast Blend and that is what he sells it to me for.   
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Little bean on December 18, 2018, 05:21:56 PM
Endico Cheese Company in Brewster NY sells Grande Shred for 3:00 a pound.   I would try a few Pizzerias who would sell it for a reasonable price.  Mine in Florida pays under 14 for a 5 pound bag of East Coast Blend and that is what he sells it to me for.

That痴 the going price right now I知 paying 2.76 a pound for the shred.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 21, 2018, 07:03:23 AM
Grande melts great. Of note - the "thinner" your sauce the better the melt will be on the cheese. I don't know why that is, but I see it in deck oven bakes. A thinner tomato product, like alta cucina with the juice blended well gives me that melt with no spotting/orange hue where the cheese kind of "becomes one" with the sauce.

I think the screen helps slow the heat transfer to the sauce/cheese from the bottom up so it's probably why you see that melt on a number of screen baked pies, but to get an even more controlled melt you might consider thin sauce if you haven't already.

For sure. We've had a ton of discussion and experiments posted here (particularly on the "melt" thread) on what you're saying.

Baking with a thin sauce that I purchased from a pizzeria a while back was the final push I needed. I now strain 7/11 for a thin smooth sauce. (I know it's a bit odd to buy a product that contains skin but then strain it out, but it's been working for me.)

In the past I've found just whole peeled to be too watery for my tastes. This could be impacted by the fact I'm using a kitchen oven. If I were to use whole peeled, I'd mix in a diluted heavy puree.

Regarding the screen and melt, your comments are similar to Harry's. His view was that the screen was crucial to Queens style. That it enabled a large amount of cheese to be slowly and gently melted over an 8-10 minute bake.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on December 21, 2018, 10:06:21 AM
For sure. We've had a ton of discussion and experiments posted here (particularly on the "melt" thread) on what you're saying.

Baking with a thin sauce that I purchased from a pizzeria a while back was the final push I needed. I now strain 7/11 for a thin smooth sauce. (I know it's a bit odd to buy a product that contains skin but then strain it out, but it's been working for me.)

In the past I've found just whole peeled to be too watery for my tastes. This could be impacted by the fact I'm using a kitchen oven. If I were to use whole peeled, I'd mix in a diluted heavy puree.

Regarding the screen and melt, your comments are similar to Harry's. His view was that the screen was crucial to Queens style. That it enabled a large amount of cheese to be slowly and gently melted over an 8-10 minute bake.
  I strain Alta and the Ground Brands  liking Tomato Magic the best.  Getting rid of the skins makes a big difference in taste as much as getting rid of the seeds.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 23, 2018, 03:02:25 PM
This pie was ugly, but still pretty tasty.

I went thicker, which was good. I still wouldn't call this thick. TF was 0.09125

I've been having ongoing issues with bubbles. I thought maybe I needed more fingertip pressing (before a knuckle stretch), so I did more. I did so much that I ended up with a full 14" skin on my table, so no knuckle stretch at all. The result was horrendous, with loads of bubbles.  ???

Sauce had less oregano. Garlic back in, but half my old amount. I liked the garlic. Full tsp of romano, but this time it didn't seem like enough.

Stone temp 510-520 via a pre-heat at 515. Oven set to 500 after launch.

Next time do mostly the same with more romano
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Dangerous Salumi on December 23, 2018, 03:51:31 PM
This pie was ugly, but still pretty tasty.

I went thicker, which was good. I still wouldn't call this thick. TF was 0.09125

I've been having ongoing issues with bubbles. I thought maybe I needed more fingertip pressing (before a knuckle stretch), so I did more. I did so much that I ended up with a full 14" skin on my table, so no knuckle stretch at all. The result was horrendous, with loads of bubbles.  ???

Sauce had less oregano. Garlic back in, but half my old amount. I liked the garlic. Full tsp of romano, but this time it didn't seem like enough.

Stone temp 510-520 via a pre-heat at 515. Oven set to 500 after launch.

Next time do mostly the same with more romano

Bubbles or no bubbles it looks great.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: caymus on December 23, 2018, 05:07:33 PM
The result was horrendous, with loads of bubbles.  ???


I like bubbles in NY Style and how they add texture variation.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 23, 2018, 05:33:52 PM
I like bubbles in NY Style and how they add texture variation.

Not me. But at times I do like the variation in texture and flavor that comes from browning of cheese (mostly on my pan pizzas).

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Essen1 on December 23, 2018, 10:19:03 PM
Matt,

Why don't you make the pics available in a bigger format, so anyone who'd like to get a closer looks at the cheese, sauce, and how they interact, can see it?

Every time I try to zoom in, I get a really pixelated photo, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on December 23, 2018, 10:24:46 PM
Not me. But at times I do like the variation in texture and flavor that comes from browning of cheese (mostly on my pan pizzas).

As long as the bubbles only affect the rim I'm ok with it.
But as soon as bubbles get in the area where cheese is it's maddening.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on December 23, 2018, 10:31:20 PM
Matt,

Why don't you make the pics available in a bigger format, so anyone who'd like to get a closer looks at the cheese, sauce, and how they interact, can see it?

Every time I try to zoom in, I get a really pixelated photo, unfortunately.
I used to include the links to the ORIGINAL JPEG's in my thread for anyone who wanted a closer look. My photos where unusually sharp because I shot on a tripod 97% of the time
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Essen1 on December 23, 2018, 10:33:25 PM
I used to include the links to the ORIGINAL JPEG's in my thread for anyone who wanted a closer look. My photos where unusually sharp because I shot on a tripod 97% of the time

I know, and it was great.

He, however, doesn't, unless you download them and adjust the size yourself. It'd be easier just to open them from here.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on December 23, 2018, 11:17:19 PM
I know, and it was great.

He, however, doesn't, unless you download them and adjust the size yourself. It'd be easier just to open them from here.
Understandable, linking the JPEG's is also a huge PITA for the most part unless you own a desktop computer.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on December 23, 2018, 11:50:01 PM
Matt, how cold is your dough when using it?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 24, 2018, 06:53:39 AM
Matt,

Why don't you make the pics available in a bigger format...


Can someone explain to me how to do this? I thought there was a size restriction when uploading, so I go through an annoying process of reducing the size of each pic before I upload.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hotsawce on December 24, 2018, 09:07:10 AM
Matt -

Those bubbles, the crust texture, the crust color... your dough appears underfermented. Did this go right into the fridge?

This pie was ugly, but still pretty tasty.

I went thicker, which was good. I still wouldn't call this thick. TF was 0.09125

I've been having ongoing issues with bubbles. I thought maybe I needed more fingertip pressing (before a knuckle stretch), so I did more. I did so much that I ended up with a full 14" skin on my table, so no knuckle stretch at all. The result was horrendous, with loads of bubbles.  ???

Sauce had less oregano. Garlic back in, but half my old amount. I liked the garlic. Full tsp of romano, but this time it didn't seem like enough.

Stone temp 510-520 via a pre-heat at 515. Oven set to 500 after launch.

Next time do mostly the same with more romano
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on December 24, 2018, 09:33:09 AM
Can someone explain to me how to do this? I thought there was a size restriction when uploading, so I go through an annoying process of reducing the size of each pic before I upload.

I just attach them from the gallery on my phone.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Essen1 on December 24, 2018, 09:51:00 AM
Can someone explain to me how to do this? I thought there was a size restriction when uploading, so I go through an annoying process of reducing the size of each pic before I upload.

Where are you posting from? OS? If it's from a desk- or laptop and Windows 10, try this little tool:

https://www.bricelam.net/ImageResizer/
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 24, 2018, 10:20:05 AM
Matt -

Those bubbles, the crust texture, the crust color... your dough appears underfermented. Did this go right into the fridge?

Matt, how cold is your dough when using it?

My dough has 0.25% IDY (1.75% salt, 1.25% sugar). It sits at room temp for 10 minutes before going into my basement fridge, which runs colder than normal. In the fridge for 44 hours. Then it sits at room temp to warm up for 2.5 hours. Something has to be wrong somewhere.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: HansB on December 24, 2018, 10:32:53 AM
Can someone explain to me how to do this? I thought there was a size restriction when uploading, so I go through an annoying process of reducing the size of each pic before I upload.

I save them with the longest edge being 1,200 pixels, like this one. Yours are saved at 640 pixels.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on December 24, 2018, 02:59:58 PM
My dough has 0.25% IDY (1.75% salt, 1.25% sugar). It sits at room temp for 10 minutes before going into my basement fridge, which runs colder than normal. In the fridge for 44 hours. Then it sits at room temp to warm up for 2.5 hours. Something has to be wrong somewhere.
Try this, ferment for a total of 3 days, then 12 hours before bake time reball your dough.  So at hour 60 reball.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 24, 2018, 03:31:54 PM
I want to stick to 2 days. Based on Craig's chart I should double my yeast. I used to be up in that range (0.45%).
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on December 27, 2018, 02:33:27 AM
I save them with the longest edge being 1,200 pixels, like this one. Yours are saved at 640 pixels.

That pie has the perfect amount of pixels.  Even the pepperoni ones.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: HansB on December 27, 2018, 07:33:39 AM
That pie has the perfect amount of pixels.  Even the pepperoni ones.

 :-D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on December 27, 2018, 10:28:03 AM
That pie has the perfect amount of pixels.  Even the pepperoni ones.
Perfect pixel & pepperoni pizza pie.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 29, 2018, 06:17:08 PM
Your thoughts needed - I doubled my IDY to 0.5% and put the dough into my kitchen fridge which is warmer than my basement fridge. Here's what it looks like after 24 hours. Just moved it to basement fridge, but will it last for another 24 hours? (If it's not too far already. )

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on December 29, 2018, 06:49:35 PM
I vote no. maybe move outside?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 29, 2018, 06:51:35 PM
It's 43 degrees outside now!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Essen1 on December 29, 2018, 06:53:25 PM
Your thoughts needed - I doubled my IDY to 0.5% and put the dough into my kitchen fridge which is warmer than my basement fridge. Here's what it looks like after 24 hours. Just moved it to basement fridge, but will it last for another 24 hours? (If it's not too far already. )

Punch it back, re-ball and you're good to go for another 24 hrs. Basement refer since it runs colder.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 29, 2018, 07:10:48 PM
Punch it back, re-ball and you're good to go for another 24 hrs. Basement refer since it runs colder.

Will give this a shot, but I'm also making another doughball to have as backup and to experiment. I'm using the same formula again with double my usual IDY, but will use my usual basement fridge and see what happens overnight.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on December 29, 2018, 07:17:16 PM
Matt - do you track your finished dough temp - it can have a huge impact of how fast your dough moves. I can make a dough with .4 that lasts for many days or make one that is ready in 24 hours by modulating the finished dough temp.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 29, 2018, 07:40:43 PM
Matt - do you track your finished dough temp - it can have a huge impact of how fast your dough moves. I can make a dough with .4 that lasts for many days or make one that is ready in 24 hours by modulating the finished dough temp.

Thanks Norm. I tried once, but not successfully.  Can you recommend a good thermometer for checking internal temp?

As a side note I'm asuming my dough temps are fairly consistent as I use room temp water and the same amount of mix time. But that's probably a bad assumption.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on December 29, 2018, 07:58:04 PM
I have an expensive one but it is not necessary to spend that much - the less expensive ones just don't usually read as fast. Any digital probe type will work, as long as that is the same one you use every time you can figure out where you stand from mix to mix.

I know it is hard to remember to do it but I made a habit of it and you would be surprised how easy it is to swing 5-8 degrees without even realizing it. Not as big a deal with RT (IMHO) but for CT finished dough temp differences can dramatically change the behavior of the dough ball's fermentation rate (and the bigger the dough ball the more the affect is amplified).
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 29, 2018, 08:01:53 PM
I have an expensive one but it is not necessary to spend that much - the less expensive ones just don't usually read as fast. Any digital probe type will work, as long as that is the same one you use every time you can figure out where you stand from mix to mix.

I know it is hard to remember to do it but I made a habit of it and you would be surprised how easy it is to swing 5-8 degrees without even realizing it. Not as big a deal with RT (IMHO) but for CT finished dough temp differences can dramatically change the behavior of the dough ball's fermentation rate (and the bigger the dough ball the more the affect is amplified).

What do you do then when the dough is plus or minus 8 degrees from your taget?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Pete-zza on December 29, 2018, 08:07:06 PM
Matt,

I am with Norm about the finished dough temperature. 0.50% IDY is a lot of yeast in my opinion for a dough that is to last a couple of days. However, if you use cold water and get the finished dough temperature to somewhere in the 65 degrees range (way less than the usual 75-80 degrees range) or you add the IDY late in the dough mixing/kneading process, you can get away with using a lot of yeast and the dough can ferment for several days. These are techniques that I discussed in respect of a dough that used 0.60% IDY at Reply 29 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg36081#msg36081

Of course, in your case you may need to play around with the amount of IDY and finished dough temperature to achieve the desired number of days of cold fermentation. The dough discussed in the above post lasted a bit over twelve days of cold fermentation. So, the 0.60% IDY was not a deterrent to that objective as it would be with a dough with a significantly higher finished dough temperature. Also, the dough had good oven spring and a lot of other good features.

Peter

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on December 29, 2018, 08:16:28 PM
If it was low I would just mix longer (it warms up pretty fast) and / or give it some counter time before it hits the cooler (depending on how low it was).

If too hot then I would flatten it out like a pancake and move it into the cooler ASAP, if extremely hot spray it with a tiny bit of water too or hit the freezer for 15-20 min. (or plan to bake it sooner).

Best to avoid all that and check your dough temp as you go, I test mine right after the first coarse mix and then every few min. when I'm making - I do that every single time I mix.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Essen1 on December 29, 2018, 08:47:36 PM
Matt - do you track your finished dough temp - it can have a huge impact of how fast your dough moves. I can make a dough with .4 that lasts for many days or make one that is ready in 24 hours by modulating the finished dough temp.

Totally agree. I forgot to mention that earlier.  ???
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 29, 2018, 08:48:51 PM
If it was low I would just mix longer (it warms up pretty fast) and / or give it some counter time before it hits the cooler (depending on how low it was).

If too hot then I would flatten it out like a pancake and move it into the cooler ASAP, if extremely hot spray it with a tiny bit of water too or hit the freezer for 15-20 min. (or plan to bake it sooner).

Best to avoid all that and check your dough temp as you go, I test mine right after the first coarse mix and then every few min. when I'm making - I do that every single time I mix.

Many thanks!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Essen1 on December 29, 2018, 08:49:50 PM

As a side note I'm asuming my dough temps are fairly consistent as I use room temp water and the same amount of mix time. But that's probably a bad assumption.

Both temps, ambient water temp and finished dough temp due to friction, can vary quite significantly. Not to mention flour temp, as well. It's always best to keep track of all three.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 29, 2018, 08:56:35 PM

0.50% IDY is a lot of yeast in my opinion for a dough that is to last a couple of days...


I thought that sounded higher than what I typically see posted, but unless I'm misreading it or am missing nuances (like water temp), Craig's chart (included below) has 0.512 IDY for 44 hours at 36 degrees. I figured given the chart and my unknown but cold fridge, I'd give it a shot.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 29, 2018, 09:00:09 PM
One more newbie dough question - how should the volume of my dough change during fermentation? Today's dough looked like it was maybe double in size. Normally my dough size doesn't change very much.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on December 30, 2018, 09:15:36 AM
I like mine to about double, the doughs I make with less H2O don't create as many bubbles as the higher hydration ones so I look at that but other things also - A bit on either side of double works fine. I always look at my dough over the course of the fermentation period. I may rearrange how they are laying in the bag to help keep them as round as possible and also decide how long before I bake they need to come out of the cooler.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Essen1 on December 30, 2018, 12:24:16 PM
One more newbie dough question - how should the volume of my dough change during fermentation? Today's dough looked like it was maybe double in size. Normally my dough size doesn't change very much.

Matt,

This is what my dough looks like after 48 hrs at 70% HR and 0.5% IDY. It doubled in size. Dough ball weight was 625gr/18'.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 30, 2018, 09:20:01 PM
Dough rabbit hole, here I come  8)

First off, quick recap on how I got here. A couple months ago I finally nailed my melt and sauce during 2 consecutive bakes. Then I tried making a larger pie, but started having various issues including determining ratios and some bubbling. So I tried to go back to what worked for those 2 bakes, but bubbles in my dough were wreaking havoc. A few days ago when Lou suggested my dough may be underfermented, I decided to experiment.

This dough had double my usual IDY:
100 All Trumps (no bleach or bromate), 54% water, 4% oil, 1.75% salt, 1.95% sugar, 0.48% IDY
For the first time ever, I put it into my kitchen fridge, which is not nearly as cool as my basement fridge.
After 24 hours, I posted pics of the very active dough (see above posts), and followed Essen's suggestion to reball and move it to my basement fridge.
I took it out to warm up for 2:40 before opening.

It was super gassy and full of bubbles when opening, and I thought I was in for a disaster. But I was super happy to see no major bubbles in the finished pie  :)

The melt was very good. A small notch below my best melts, but this was a fresh can of 7/11, which results in a thicker sauce compared to previously frozen 7/11.

As far as the undercrust, it was a bit too cooked/toasty for my liking. I'd like it to be somewhere in the middle of my usual and this one. Maybe reducing the sugar would get me there? (Or reducing stone temp.)
I have a second doughball still in the fridge. Same formula as this one, but went direct to my basement fridge. Will see what it looks like tomorrow at 2 days, and probably will bake as a bread.

Stone temp was 510-520 (pre-heated at 515), and oven temp was set to 500 for the bake.
Bake time consistent with my best melts at 8:30 with 7:00 on mesh and 1:30 direct on the stone.

TF was 0.09375 (or 410 grams for 14").

Next time:
Slightly lower the TF
Small increase in romano (up from 1.25 tsp in sauce)
Work towards a less toasty undercrust (consider changes to sugar, yeast amount, refrigeration temp, stone temp.)

Pre-bake pics below. Pizza pics in next post.
[I'm still not sure exactly how the forum re-sizes the images, but at least now my pics are all 1620x1080, so you can click on them for bigger images]

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 30, 2018, 09:20:17 PM
Pizza pics
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Dangerous Salumi on December 30, 2018, 09:46:34 PM
Yum
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Jackitup on December 30, 2018, 10:46:14 PM
Nice bottom shot, my wife would find that perfect!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jvp123 on December 31, 2018, 12:38:26 AM
Nice bottom shot, my wife would find that perfect!


Looks good to me, Matt! ..  but, I know the rabbit hole very well.  :-D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on December 31, 2018, 10:30:24 AM
 :drool: great job matt!
- Are some portions of the cheese whiter due to the use of hard cheese?
- at that hydration, did you find the dough fragile and very extensible? What was your experience opening, stretching and launching the pie?

thanks!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on December 31, 2018, 11:06:21 AM
:drool: great job matt!
- Are some portions of the cheese whiter due to the use of hard cheese?
- at that hydration, did you find the dough fragile and very extensible? What was your experience opening, stretching and launching the pie?

thanks!

Thanks QD. My hard cheeses were mixed into the sauce and shouldn't have impacted the top color.

For the most part, I thought I had a pretty good mix of orange and white. Crust thickness is a large factor - when I go thinner it's more orange. This pie was also a little less wet as I used tomato that wasn't previously frozen. I did miss that extra juice.

Where this pie was overly white was the slice between 3 o'clock and 4 o'clock in my full pie photo. I was watching the bake, and one portion wasn't getting the rapid boil. Instead the cheese was slowly waving up and down. I'm not certain what caused it, possibly my dough was extra thick in this spot. (It was around 9 o'clock in the oven. When I remove the pie from the screen I try to rotate it 180 degrees.)

Shaping the dough wasn't quite as easy as my usual, but I liked it. My previous doughs were almost like clay, very moldable. This one had good balance though - it didnt snap back on me, but didnt pull itself open either. After opening it on the table to about an inch from full size, I was worried that it would overstretch just by me trying to move it. But that didn't happen. I was able to hold it up in the air without it stretching at all. And a gentle knuckle stretch got it to full size.

Launching wasn't a concern as I'm using a screen  ;)

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Essen1 on December 31, 2018, 11:51:17 AM
Matt,

That pie looks dynamite! Picture perfect.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Little bean on December 31, 2018, 12:45:27 PM
 ^^^
Matt,

That pie looks dynamite! Picture perfect.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on January 01, 2019, 11:21:02 AM
thanks matt, I'm starting to think the problem I'm having with dough handling is due to dough temp right before stretching which is >72F. I have three doughballs in the fridge, should be interesting.

anyhow, happy new year! I've learned a lot from your contribution to the forum and from this thread in particular.

best,
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 01, 2019, 01:32:48 PM
thanks matt, I'm starting to think the problem I'm having with dough handling is due to dough temp right before stretching which is >72F. I have three doughballs in the fridge, should be interesting.

anyhow, happy new year! I've learned a lot from your contribution to the forum and from this thread in particular.

best,

Thanks for the kind words QD and Happy New Year! I seemed to have missed it - what are the problems you're having?

My digital thermometer arrived yesterday, just in time to take my test dough out of the fridge. Will post my observations later today, but it implied that I've been opening my dough at 63 degrees. (I have no idea what the optimal temp is, but at least now I can measure it and start learning.)

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 01, 2019, 08:03:04 PM
Yesterday I took the backup dough I made out of the fridge. This was the same formula as my pizza bake (0.48% IDY, 1.95% Sugar, 1.75% Salt), but it went directly into the basement fridge for the entire 44 hour CF.

I took the dough out as usual after 44 hours. It looked maybe a little more active than my usual dough. But nothing like the previous dough that went into my kitchen fridge.
The temperature of the dough directly out of the fridge was 38 degrees. (I'm now the proud owner of a digital thermometer. Thanks Norm.)

It sat at room temp for 3 hours (which is 20 minutes longer than usual). It was my usual winter temp, with my heat set to 69 degrees.
The resulting dough temp was 63 degrees.

It grew more than usual during the warmup, but still not too crazy.

That's where the pizza info stopped as I didn't bake a pizza. But I did bake it as bread, 430 degree stone, 405 oven, 24:30 bake to an internal temperature of 213 degrees.

I'm thinking for next bake I'll keep the IDY where it is, reduce the sugar, start it for 24 hours in the basement fridge, then 20 hours in the kitchen. (I'll also reduce my stone temp by pre-heating at 500 instead of 515, reduce the TF and add more romano.)

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on January 01, 2019, 08:11:56 PM
>72F

How?   It's winter.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on January 01, 2019, 08:29:06 PM
^ the dough sits at ~69 degrees for three hours but then I move the dough next to the oven for two hours while preheating the steel. works beautifully for 55% hydration dough but my 65% hydration dough ends up fragile and too extensible.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 02, 2019, 06:13:22 PM
^ the dough sits at ~69 degrees for three hours but then I move the dough next to the oven for two hours while preheating the steel. works beautifully for 55% hydration dough but my 65% hydration dough ends up fragile and too extensible.

I thought I was at the long end of the "warmup" spectrum by going a bit more than 2 hours

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on January 02, 2019, 06:29:21 PM
I think if it needs to sit out that long it was kicked out too cold, or not enough yeast was used for the fermentation period or the yeast was shocked or the yeast is almost kaput. Really should only need about an hour to hit 55-60 degrees for a normal home size ball (unless your house is really really cold). ❄️
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 02, 2019, 09:11:05 PM
I think if it needs to sit out that long it was kicked out too cold, or not enough yeast was used for the fermentation period or the yeast was shocked or the yeast is almost kaput. Really should only need about an hour to hit 55-60 degrees for a normal home size ball (unless your house is really really cold). ❄️

Thanks Norm. So pointing out one obvious implication of your statement is that the desired temp when opening a properly fermented dough is 55-60 degrees?

(I feel like I missed a day of school...or a section of the forum.)

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on January 02, 2019, 10:08:47 PM
Thanks Norm. So pointing out one obvious implication of your statement is that the desired temp when opening a properly fermented dough is 55-60 degrees?

(I feel like I missed a day of school...or a section of the forum.)
I feel I read that numerous times but not sure where.   :o  But it is what I do.

 
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Essen1 on January 03, 2019, 12:11:01 AM
My sweet spot is in the 62-65ーF, measured in the center of the dough ball.

But, that is all subjective.

You can't really ask others for a general internal temp, without considering the factors that influence your own dough. Most will give you numbers that are all over the board. Will they work for you? Find out. You like experiments.

However, by now, Hammetjr, you should be experienced enough to now the characteristics of your dough, the way it behaves, the way it ferments and which temp is adequate for stretching.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on January 03, 2019, 12:17:46 AM
I feel I read that numerous times but not sure where.   :o  But it is what I do.
DoughDoc consistently advises that over in his help section. It took me a few readings to get used to him saying warm it at room temperature, making clear all of us who had been warning to room temperature were overdoing it.


I知 in about the same boat as everyone else here wrt this, just thought that might be where you read it too.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on January 03, 2019, 07:54:31 AM
I think if it needs to sit out that long it was kicked out too cold, or not enough yeast was used for the fermentation period or the yeast was shocked or the yeast is almost kaput. Really should only need about an hour to hit 55-60 degrees for a normal home size ball (unless your house is really really cold). ❄️

My house is 59F in the winter.  I'm a tree hugger.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on January 03, 2019, 08:40:54 AM
That is a range that works for me - I like the dough as cool as possible for handling reasons but not so cold that I have issues with bubbles.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Irishboy on January 03, 2019, 09:46:28 AM
Since there's talk about finished dough temperature has anyone ever tested out effects at a certain temperature range? Like how much of an effect 5ー has on numbers of days? 70f VS 65f? I've always wondered what is the effect of each degree as far as fermentation time? I do have to agree with others finished dough temperature is key for consistent results it should be treated no different than percentages of the recipe




By the way Matt some of the best-looking New York style pizza I have seen, very impressive
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Pete-zza on January 03, 2019, 01:08:48 PM
Since there's talk about finished dough temperature has anyone ever tested out effects at a certain temperature range? Like how much of an effect 5ー has on numbers of days? 70f VS 65f? I've always wondered what is the effect of each degree as far as fermentation time? I do have to agree with others finished dough temperature is key for consistent results it should be treated no different than percentages of the recipe




By the way Matt some of the best-looking New York style pizza I have seen, very impressive

Josh,

From what I have read from General Mills literature, for every eighteen degrees rise in finished dough temperature, up to 100 degrees F, the rate of fermentation doubles. See Reply 45 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg37191;topicseen#msg37191

I also once read that of all the technical service calls the General Mills Bakery Flours Group receives from pizza operators, 80% of them involve issues related to dough temperature.

Edit: See Tim Huff video at https://www.generalmillscf.com/videos/troubleshooting-dough-temperature

Peter
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on January 03, 2019, 01:21:02 PM
Pete in the other post you said 15, but 18 in this one - or did I read it wrong?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Pete-zza on January 03, 2019, 01:32:11 PM
Pete in the other post you said 15, but 18 in this one - or did I read it wrong?

Norm,

Originally, I had read 15 degrees but when I decided to track down the information at the GM website, I saw the 18 degrees number. I then edited my post after I saw the GM Huff video.

Peter
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on January 03, 2019, 01:35:46 PM
I wonder if the rate of change is liner WRT the numerical difference - in other words, would 9 degrees = 50%, or is the change non linear?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Pete-zza on January 03, 2019, 01:54:19 PM
I wonder if the rate of change is liner WRT the numerical difference - in other words, would 9 degrees = 50%, or is the change non linear?

Norm,

I am not sure but that didn't stop member November from addressing the issue. See, for example, Reply 45 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8685.msg76528#msg76528 and also the links to November's posts starting at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5028.msg42558#msg42558.

I used November's method a few times, including helping member Andre in Brazil with a formulation, which I set forth in Reply 36 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13080.msg128439#msg128439. With a couple of minor variations, it apparently worked out for Andre: Reply 48 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13080.msg130280#msg130280.

It is pretty clear why Tim Huff gives the simple answer.

Peter
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 03, 2019, 06:45:55 PM
This is all awesome info from everyone! I'm making dough tonight and am excited to see what the thermometer says.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 03, 2019, 08:59:26 PM
Here we go.

Finished dough temp 73.6 degrees
10 minute rest (no temp change)
Then into the cold basement fridge

Water temp was 62.4
Flour temp 66.4

This dough has the same 0.5% IDY as last week, but reduced sugar at 0.8%

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Irishboy on January 03, 2019, 10:36:10 PM
How long are you planning to cf? If I was a betting man I would bet two days on that one seeing that I could do 3 days at 0.4% around 70f with 42f frig.
It really depends on your fridge temperature though


I am no expert by any means and barely know this stuff myself so curious to see how this turns out on amount of time. Looking forward to seeing your results as always
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 04, 2019, 07:01:56 AM
How long are you planning to cf? If I was a betting man I would bet two days on that one seeing that I could do 3 days at 0.4% around 70f with 42f frig.
It really depends on your fridge temperature though


I am no expert by any means and barely know this stuff myself so curious to see how this turns out on amount of time. Looking forward to seeing your results as always

My plan is about 2 days, with the first 24 hours in the basement fridge and the next 20 hours in my kitchen fridge.

I don't know the true temps of the fridges, but what I can say is that my kitchen fridge is new with a digitial setting and is set to 36 degrees (but keep in mind that my kids like to stand there with the doors open and my wife likes to stuff it with items from costco). And I can definitely say that my basement fridge is noticeably cooler.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on January 04, 2019, 07:06:37 AM
Matt, how much salt did you use?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 04, 2019, 07:36:50 AM
Matt, how much salt did you use?

Norm, full formula:
100% AT (un/un), 54% water, 4% oil, 1.75% salt, 0.8% sugar, 0.5% IDY
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on January 04, 2019, 07:46:22 AM
Thx, Matt - can't wait to see it and hear how it goes!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Irishboy on January 04, 2019, 09:30:46 AM
I also can't wait, I want to gather as much info about finished dough temperature and yeast quantities to try to get a chart. I know there is already yeast charts, but I would be curious about finished dough temperature chart and yeast quantity
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on January 04, 2019, 09:36:49 AM
I have a spreadsheet if you want it.... one with preferments and one w/o - or you can just use the function on my calculator temp page.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on January 04, 2019, 09:41:44 AM
Your thoughts needed - I doubled my IDY to 0.5% and put the dough into my kitchen fridge which is warmer than my basement fridge. Here's what it looks like after 24 hours. Just moved it to basement fridge, but will it last for another 24 hours? (If it's not too far already. )
I know this is dated but in that moment the dough was ironically in it's prime state. You probably had to go to work or had plans that day.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Irishboy on January 04, 2019, 09:58:46 AM
I was more thinking about putting together a chart for example 0.5% idy @ 70fdt= 24hrs..... 0.5%idy @ 80f= 15hrs. Pretty much a chart like that with all different quantities of yeast
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on January 04, 2019, 10:13:43 AM
I see, yes that is a missing tool but hard since workflows can impact what happens along with the temp of your refrigerator...
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Irishboy on January 04, 2019, 10:20:28 AM
True
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 04, 2019, 11:43:50 AM
I was more thinking about putting together a chart for example 0.5% idy @ 70fdt= 24hrs..... 0.5%idy @ 80f= 15hrs. Pretty much a chart like that with all different quantities of yeast

Basically need a 3rd dimension (fdt) added to Craig's chart to create a surface
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on January 04, 2019, 11:51:01 AM
Yes, yes yes - or should I say...
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on January 04, 2019, 11:58:04 AM
Matt, how do you stretch your dough to get that classic NY look?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 04, 2019, 06:30:39 PM
Matt, how do you stretch your dough to get that classic NY look?

Very carefully! My process is:

The dough comes out of the round container already round

Usual fingertip press

Form the rim by doing fingertip press on the inside of the rim AND have my palm and fingers of my other hand in a curve shape on the outside of the rim. That second hand is important.

Note that the unbaked rim is about the width of my fingernail

More fingertip press

Some edge stretch

Repeat the rim forming process if necessary (I usually do)

A small amount of knuckle stretch

Place on screen. My screen is not round and is larger than my pizzas, so it does not create a template

Fix the shape as needed when on the screen. (I actually use a measuring tape to check it)

It's a lengthy process because I do it slowly. But as I said once before, I really enjoy the dough opening process so I'm glad I don't do it in seconds the way the pros do

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 04, 2019, 06:35:23 PM
I know this is dated but in that moment the dough was ironically in it's prime state. You probably had to go to work or had plans that day.

Yeah, I don't know exactly what the prime state is, but I'd be interested to have a dough similar to that but in 2 days instead of one

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on January 04, 2019, 07:28:15 PM
Looking back at your previous pizza, it's fine the way it is. Ever since working at mellow mushroom I can open a dough considerably faster, I try to experiment with getting NY style crust but my supervisors get irritated.

On another note I really appreciate the balance of your pies, believe it or not, the vast majority of pizza makers at my shop don't have a clue of the concept.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on January 04, 2019, 07:32:47 PM
MR - do you know this person?
I値l guess: Dr. No-No (Dock Ellis)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 04, 2019, 08:37:06 PM
 
Here we go.

Finished dough temp 73.6 degrees
10 minute rest (no temp change)
Then into the cold basement fridge

Water temp was 62.4
Flour temp 66.4

This dough has the same 0.5% IDY as last week, but reduced sugar at 0.8%


Here's my dough after 24 hours in the basement fridge. As expected, not much of a change in size. I just moved it to the kitchen fridge.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on January 04, 2019, 08:41:02 PM
MR - do you know this person?

Interesting, what made you post that and how did a hold of such a photo? What is your intention?

That's a terrible photo btw.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on January 05, 2019, 07:58:41 AM
I just thought you would know who it was :-) Are you saying you don't MR?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on January 05, 2019, 08:52:19 AM
I just thought you would know who it was :-) Are you saying you don't MR?
The question isn't why, but HOW did you get into my private photos from my flickr?
Is this some sort of identify theft? Just tell me the purpose before things escalate....

Yes that is me? Did you think my account was hacked/comprised?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Little bean on January 05, 2019, 09:03:22 AM
The question isn't why, but HOW did you get into my private photos from my flickr?
Is this some sort of identify theft? Just tell me the purpose before things escalate....

Yes that is me? Did you think my account was hacked/comprised?

That used to be your profile picture didn稚 it? Norm is the last person I would believe to have negative intentions.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on January 05, 2019, 09:03:24 AM
Nope, you post so much stuff online I ran across it by accident (and that photo did not come from flickr and where it was posted it was not private)- sorry did not mean to offend you MR. When someone said you were a girl and you did not answer and changed your avatar to a girl I thought it was weird so posted an erased photo to see if what I had stumbled across was correct. No big deal to me, I just could not understand why you were not being honest with the members here...

Most people don't realize how much info they post online - what school you went to, where you have worked / live - anyone can connect the dots in 30 seconds. Again sorry, I'll remove the photo...
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on January 05, 2019, 09:37:31 AM
That used to be your profile picture didn稚 it? Norm is the last person I would believe to have negative intentions.
No it wasn't, I reverted to my original profile picture. The picture I had before was fan art of video game character named Cassie from Paladins.

Original character
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/paladins/images/a/af/Cassie.png/revision/latest?cb=20170706051531

Fan art
https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/intermediary/f/4aecaadd-351e-4ca2-93ce-5afbfd33c184/d9ujb2h-885cac20-2178-44a4-9177-c22abcdd2dfd.jpg/v1/fill/w_600,h_600,q_70,strp/cassie_by_lilexor_d9ujb2h-fullview.jpg

We're good, no hard feelings
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: caymus on January 05, 2019, 10:07:15 AM
No it wasn't, I reverted to my original profile picture. The picture I had before was fan art of video game character named Cassie from Paladins.


I thought you named yourself after the camera :)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Little bean on January 05, 2019, 10:28:48 AM
No it wasn't, I reverted to my original profile picture. The picture I had before was fan art of video game character named Cassie from Paladins.

Original character
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/paladins/images/a/af/Cassie.png/revision/latest?cb=20170706051531

Fan art
https://images-wixmp-ed30a86b8c4ca887773594c2.wixmp.com/intermediary/f/4aecaadd-351e-4ca2-93ce-5afbfd33c184/d9ujb2h-885cac20-2178-44a4-9177-c22abcdd2dfd.jpg/v1/fill/w_600,h_600,q_70,strp/cassie_by_lilexor_d9ujb2h-fullview.jpg

We're good, no hard feelings

My bad on that
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jsaras on January 05, 2019, 10:50:41 AM
I thought you named yourself after the camera :)

That痴 what I thought as well.  Didn稚 you photograph your pizzas using a film camera? 
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 05, 2019, 08:36:00 PM
One of my best pies ever  :chef:

The melt was beautiful. I'm thinking that dough fermentation impacts the heat passthrough from the stone to the sauce and ultimately the cheese. The sauce/cheese boil was in full effect, early, and consistent across this pie.

I ended up with a shorter bake time than planned, at 7:45, and the entire bake was on the mesh screen. (I went to transfer it to the stone at 7:00, but both the cheese and undercrust were basically done and I decided to give it a bit more time just on the screen.)

Sauce amount was a slightly heaping 3/4 cup. Usual 9oz mozz. TF 0.09125/399 grams for 14".

Dough was 100% AT (un/un), 54% water, 4% oil, 1.75% salt, 0.8% sugar, 0.48% IDY.
Off the mixer at 73.6 degrees.
Into the basement fridge for 24 hours
Then the kitchen fridge for almost 23 hours
Sat at room temp for only 10 minutes. The reason for this is that it was 57.4 degrees coming out of my kitchen fridge!

It stretched nicely. I didn't pop a single bubble during opening (except the massive one on the top).

Stone was preheated for only an hour+ at 500, resulting in 505-515 stone temp.
Oven was 500 for the bake as well.

Areas to improve:
Probably still slightly too toasty a flavor on the undercrust
Continue to play with the hard cheeses and herbs

Pics pre-bake below, and pizza pics in next post.


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 05, 2019, 08:36:22 PM
Pizza pics

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: HansB on January 05, 2019, 09:05:41 PM
 :pizza: :chef:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: CaptBob on January 05, 2019, 09:26:34 PM
:pizza: :chef:

 ^^^ ^^^
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Irishboy on January 05, 2019, 09:45:15 PM
Beautiful
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norma427 on January 05, 2019, 10:05:07 PM
^^^ ^^^

 ^^^ ^^^ ^^^

Norma
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on January 05, 2019, 10:09:39 PM
I commented in the other thread but wanted to say thanks for including weight and diameter along with TF. Helps some of us.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jvp123 on January 05, 2019, 10:12:21 PM
Nice pizza, Matt! I think you've pretty much nailed it.  :chef:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on January 05, 2019, 10:35:21 PM
Great stuff Matt  :chef:
Was the hard cheese still in your sauce this time? Don't really see it but perhaps you powdered it this time?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 05, 2019, 10:41:34 PM
Great stuff Matt  :chef:
Was the hard cheese still in your sauce this time? Don't really see it but perhaps you powdered it this time?

Cant slip anything past you Ryan  :)

Powdered romano in the sauce. But instead of shredded parm in the sauce, I tried my best to powder it, then put it on top of the cheese pre-bake. Didn't see any positive results from that, and will likely go back to including it in the sauce.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Jackitup on January 05, 2019, 11:41:13 PM
Cant slip anything past you Ryan  :)

Powdered romano in the sauce. But instead of shredded parm in the sauce, I tried my best to powder it, then put it on top of the cheese pre-bake. Didn't see any positive results from that, and will likely go back to including it in the sauce.

I always add some parm or romano either to the sauce or on top of the sauce, I always found it to be of the most benefit that way. And of course, some at the table when wolfing it down!😋
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on January 06, 2019, 07:31:06 AM
Pizza pics
Very, very nice, and thanks for including all the details too, we need to add a new acronym to the list here PPP (Picture Perfect Pie)  :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on January 06, 2019, 08:57:51 AM
beautiful matt! when are you opening the restaurant?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Little bean on January 06, 2019, 08:59:55 AM
I really like the look of that pie, wish I could try it.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: PizzaJerk on January 06, 2019, 11:11:18 AM
I have been actively following your work and progress sans comment. However, I could not hold myself any longer. That is one fine looking pie! The hard work in trial and error are paying big dividends  :pizza: As for the bottom, I don't think you'll be able to achieve the top that you've been getting without at least that degree of "toastiness" on the bottom. Perhaps if the entire bake was done on the screen and then just a real quick stop on the stone you might get it. I think where it's at right now is wonderful.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 06, 2019, 12:28:36 PM
I have been actively following your work and progress sans comment. However, I could not hold myself any longer. That is one fine looking pie! The hard work in trial and error are paying big dividends  :pizza: As for the bottom, I don't think you'll be able to achieve the top that you've been getting without at least that degree of "toastiness" on the bottom. Perhaps if the entire bake was done on the screen and then just a real quick stop on the stone you might get it. I think where it's at right now is wonderful.

Thanks you big jerk! (Sorry, kinda had to  :))

I do think I can alter the undercrust toastyness via stone temp or dough formula or fermentation. I've had great melts with much less "cooked" undercrust, though it seems it was a result of my dough being significantly underfermented.

I'm not looking for a big change. And while I'm not sure how I'm going to get there, I'm sure I'll have fun trying  :)

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 06, 2019, 12:34:23 PM
I really like the look of that pie, wish I could try it.

Thanks! This is a topic for another day (and another thread), but it'd be cool to do an east coast get together at some point. I can imagine a bunch of Blackstones (or other portable ovens) at a park somewhere.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Little bean on January 06, 2019, 01:14:41 PM
Thanks! This is a topic for another day (and another thread), but it'd be cool to do an east coast get together at some point. I can imagine a bunch of Blackstones (or other portable ovens) at a park somewhere.

I have a really nice mobile oven.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: PizzaJerk on January 06, 2019, 03:05:41 PM
Thanks you big jerk! (Sorry, kinda had to  :))

I do think I can alter the undercrust toastyness via stone temp or dough formula or fermentation. I've had great melts with much less "cooked" undercrust, though it seems it was a result of my dough being significantly underfermented.

I'm not looking for a big change. And while I'm not sure how I'm going to get there, I'm sure I'll have fun trying  :)

Haha no worries. The name is supposed to be a play on the old time soda "jerk" though it makes it seem as if I'm a pizza snob. I Guess I should have thought of that beforehand.

Without having your formulation handy as I type this. Have you tried eliminating any added sugars from your recipe and maybe baking directly on the stone in the beginning and then sliding the screen in when you have the bottom where you like it?

I agree, it's fun no matter what!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Glutenboy on January 06, 2019, 03:17:12 PM
That pie is pizzeria ready, my friend!  :drool:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 06, 2019, 03:39:14 PM
Haha no worries. The name is supposed to be a play on the old time soda "jerk" though it makes it seem as if I'm a pizza snob. I Guess I should have thought of that beforehand.

Without having your formulation handy as I type this. Have you tried eliminating any added sugars from your recipe and maybe baking directly on the stone in the beginning and then sliding the screen in when you have the bottom where you like it?

I agree, it's fun no matter what!

Ah cool, soda fountains were before my time, I hadn't heard that term before.

This was only my second bake since increasing my fermentation (with more IDY and warmer CF temp). First bake was 1.95% sugar. Second bake 0.8% sugar. So still more room to reduce if I go that route.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 09, 2019, 12:31:57 PM
Re-posting my dough from last weekend. Does this look overfermented?

There were no obvious issues to me, but I'm learning my way through this.

I ask because I've confirmed my fridge is not working properly and the temp is around 55 degrees  :o

This implies I used about 4x the yeast implied by Craig's chart.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on January 09, 2019, 12:38:36 PM
I would say that is very well fermented - to call it over would depend on what your trying to achieve with your crust profile and your individual perspective. If a dough that fermented was warm and you stretched it that thin it would be hard to launch w/o a screen of some type (unless you used a bunch of bench flour and worked at the speed of light) IMO. Shape looks perfect, you do a much better job at shaping than me -- that is for sure.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hotsawce on January 09, 2019, 12:59:09 PM
Well overfermented. Any time you start getting bubbles popping out of the top of the doughball, you're over.

Re-posting my dough from last weekend. Does this look overfermented?

There were no obvious issues to me, but I'm learning my way through this.

I ask because I've confirmed my fridge is not working properly and the temp is around 55 degrees  :o

This implies I used about 4x the yeast implied by Craig's chart.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on January 09, 2019, 02:15:50 PM
Re-posting my dough from last weekend. Does this look overfermented?

There were no obvious issues to me, but I'm learning my way through this.

I ask because I've confirmed my fridge is not working properly and the temp is around 55 degrees  :o

This implies I used about 4x the yeast implied by Craig's chart.
It's not over fermented but dang close, if you used right after the picture was taken it will be fine.
However, if you had used it any later it will be over fermented and performed poorly.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Irishboy on January 09, 2019, 03:07:09 PM
What are the signs you're looking for to tell that is not over fermented but close just by a picture? Teach me your ways Jedi
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on January 09, 2019, 09:55:46 PM
Re-posting my dough from last weekend. Does this look overfermented?

There were no obvious issues to me, but I'm learning my way through this.

I ask because I've confirmed my fridge is not working properly and the temp is around 55 degrees  :o

This implies I used about 4x the yeast implied by Craig's chart.

Did it taste good?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 09, 2019, 10:01:40 PM
Did it taste good?

Great question! That's what I meant by "no obvious issues". It baked and tasted fine. Though the undercrust had a slight toasty flavor that I don't want.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Jackitup on January 09, 2019, 10:29:28 PM
Great question! That's what I meant by "no obvious issues". It baked and tasted fine. Though the undercrust had a slight toasty flavor that I don't want.

What kind of toasty. It can be good or bad, to me it sounds good!?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 10, 2019, 06:57:14 AM
What kind of toasty. It can be good or bad, to me it sounds good!?

Hard to describe. I wouldn't go so far as to say burnt, but it was close. Definitely personal preference varies on the amount of doneness, but I even like my toast not so toasted. So for me it was a negative.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on January 10, 2019, 11:15:09 AM
Hard to describe. I wouldn't go so far as to say burnt, but it was close. Definitely personal preference varies on the amount of doneness, but I even like my toast not so toasted. So for me it was a negative.
Like the 7-Up of toasts? :) 典oast from Matt, it痴 the un-toast. Funny.


We all have our preferences, all valid. What I have appreciated about this forum is being able to explore, try, or even modify ideas and preferences by so many capable and genuinely well meaning people. That and get feedback on my own quirks and questions.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on January 10, 2019, 11:30:36 AM
What are the signs you're looking for to tell that is not over fermented but close just by a picture? Teach me your ways Jedi
See how big those giant air pockets are on the bottom of the bowl, that's tons of activity. That's means it's on it's way out.
Now imagine if those pockets where 3x as small, that's where you want to start. I wish I had a photo of what the minimal amount of activity you want.

Now if you look under the bowl and see absolutely no activity, then your dough isn't ready, wait till you see small pockets.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Irishboy on January 10, 2019, 09:21:15 PM
See how big those giant air pockets are on the bottom of the bowl, that's tons of activity. That's means it's on it's way out.
Now imagine if those pockets where 3x as small, that's where you want to start. I wish I had a photo of what the minimal amount of activity you want.

Now if you look under the bowl and see absolutely no activity, then your dough isn't ready, wait till you see small pockets.


I noticed I always have a lot of activity on the bottom of my bowl  reminds me of sea coral. Lol
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on January 10, 2019, 10:01:47 PM
Sorry, MR...that is not gospel. There is a range of good fermentation.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Little bean on January 10, 2019, 10:16:23 PM
I would agree, I don稚 see the bottom of that container as a sign of over fermenting.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: vtsteve on January 11, 2019, 12:33:16 AM
The top looks like it's giving up some water (could be oil though..), and it's flattening out where it meets the bowl, so the elasticity is fading--not a bad thing, but a harbinger of bad things. And that bubble is a huge red flag. I like to catch them while there's still a (convex) meniscus.  :)

Sorry, it's an old photo from when I was saving at lower resolution. I think I do a better job sealing them now, too.  >:(
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on January 11, 2019, 12:59:57 AM
The top looks like it's giving up some water (could be oil though..), and it's flattening out where it meets the bowl, so the elasticity is fading--not a bad thing, but a harbinger of bad things. And that bubble is a huge red flag. I like to catch them while there's still a (convex) meniscus.  :)

Sorry, it's an old photo from when I was saving at lower resolution. I think I do a better job sealing them now, too.  >:(
Yes, this is the perfect amount of activity.

That's what I was rambling about.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Irishboy on January 11, 2019, 01:04:39 AM
The top looks like it's giving up some water (could be oil though..), and it's flattening out where it meets the bowl, so the elasticity is fading--not a bad thing, but a harbinger of bad things. And that bubble is a huge red flag. I like to catch them while there's still a (convex) meniscus.  :)

Sorry, it's an old photo from when I was saving at lower resolution. I think I do a better job sealing them now, too.  >:(


Great description
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 11, 2019, 07:05:51 AM
Thanks guys, this is incredibly helpful. Like almost everything in pizzamaking it seems there isn't a single precise answer, but this helps me understand how you think about it and what you look at.

I have a doughball in my basement fridge now. IDY is 0.37%, so less than the last 2 weeks 0.48%, but more than my old usual 0.24%.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Irishboy on January 11, 2019, 09:15:57 AM
On my recent dough ball I put it in a big measuring cup I got at Walmart for like a dollar, so I could see when it doubles. I can't think of any reason why this would it be a good idea? Any suggestions ?
Maybe a helpful solution for some?



0.3%idy finished dough temperature 70f for 96hrs cf
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Jon in Albany on January 11, 2019, 09:48:38 AM
On my recent dough ball I put it in a big measuring cup I got at Walmart for like a dollar, so I could see when it doubles. I can't think of any reason why this would it be a good idea? Any suggestions ?
Maybe a helpful solution for some?



0.3%idy finished dough temperature 70f for 96hrs cf
When I saw this I thought it was an incredibly elegant solution. Norma and Pete-zza have used it in several experiments.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6914.msg59335#msg59335
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on January 11, 2019, 09:55:07 AM
On my recent dough ball I put it in a big measuring cup I got at Walmart for like a dollar, so I could see when it doubles. I can't think of any reason why this would it be a good idea? Any suggestions ?
Maybe a helpful solution for some?



0.3%idy finished dough temperature 70f for 96hrs cf

I think industry makes an actual device to do just that - I cannot remember the name of it but I think it starts with a P - but I'm old and I could be wrong :-)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Irishboy on January 11, 2019, 09:56:59 AM
When I saw this I thought it was an incredibly elegant solution. Norma and Pete-zza have used it in several experiments.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6914.msg59335#msg59335 (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6914.msg59335#msg59335)


I have seen that before but honestly I had a really hard time it in the poppy seeds correctly placed I guess I'm too clumsy
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Jon in Albany on January 11, 2019, 10:00:03 AM

I have seen that before but honestly I had a really hard time it in the poppy seeds correctly placed I guess I'm too clumsy
Maybe a tweezer? Norma might have a tip or two. She seems to have it mastered. Always struck me as an amazing idea.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norma427 on January 11, 2019, 10:04:11 AM
Maybe a tweezer? Norma might have a tip or two. She seems to have it mastered. Always struck me as an amazing idea.

Jon in Albany,

It is fairly easy to pick up one poppy seed even if you don't have much of any fingernails.  If you finger/fingers picks up more than one, just dust the rest off.   :-D  The poppy seed trick works very well.

Norma
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Pete-zza on January 11, 2019, 10:20:43 AM
I think industry makes an actual device to do just that - I cannot remember the name of it but I think it starts with a P - but I'm old and I could be wrong :-)

Norm,

Are you thinking about a pluviometer, that some of our members, like Icelandr, have used?

Peter
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on January 11, 2019, 10:38:39 AM
Maybe  :-D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Irishboy on January 11, 2019, 11:35:56 AM
Norm,

Are you thinking about a pluviometer, that some of our members, like Icelandr, have used?

Peter


I have used one the only issue I have with that method is the mass difference especially with cold fermentation, obviously the smaller mass will slow down a lot more on fermentation. It is better than nothing in my opinion though and target cells little tiny shot glass measuring cups for like 1.99
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on January 12, 2019, 10:33:50 AM
Peter, if anyone would know this or remember where to find it, it's you :) :


Didn't Tom weigh in at some point a year or so ago maybe, about what visible doughball  bottom activity does or does not signify over--fermentation? 


It's a tricky subject anyway because an over-fermented dough can be too elastic or too extensible, and sometimes anyway still make a fine pizza even though short on ovenspring.   


I've never had  a doughball actually collapse from overfermentation, but I have definitely been disappointed by dough that is just over the line and is hard to fully open or further over the line, a sticky gluey mess.  There seems top be a range of visible activity that still yields good results, and I'm not sure I've seen a collection of photos showing everything from "Great"  to " Forget This"  Any guides you know of?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Pete-zza on January 12, 2019, 10:52:36 AM
Josh,

That is a tough one to find but is this what you are looking for?

Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=48932.msg491618#msg491618

Peter
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Dangerous Salumi on January 12, 2019, 11:02:49 AM
Jon in Albany,

It is fairly easy to pick up one poppy seed even if you don't have much of any fingernails.  If you finger/fingers picks up more than one, just dust the rest off.   :-D  The poppy seed trick works very well.

Norma

I used poppy seeds and a tape measure here:


https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=49530.60 (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=49530.60)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on January 12, 2019, 12:00:23 PM
Thank you Peter, that was totally what I as looking for..And funny to see that I was the one who asked..Clearly, I'm untrainable :-D  The link I posted showing the delayed bake of the ball in that photo wasn't quite right. It should have been this, and it was interesting to see
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg491838#msg491838


Thank you!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Irishboy on January 12, 2019, 12:27:31 PM
Peter, if anyone would know this or remember where to find it, it's you :) :


Didn't Tom weigh in at some point a year or so ago maybe, about what visible doughball  bottom activity does or does not signify over--fermentation? 


It's a tricky subject anyway because an over-fermented dough can be too elastic or too extensible, and sometimes anyway still make a fine pizza even though short on ovenspring.   


I've never had  a doughball actually collapse from overfermentation, but I have definitely been disappointed by dough that is just over the line and is hard to fully open or further over the line, a sticky gluey mess.  There seems top be a range of visible activity that still yields good results, and I'm not sure I've seen a collection of photos showing everything from "Great"  to " Forget This"  Any guides you know of?


I am actually testing out a over fermented dough ball on purpose to see what the characteristics are like and the finished product I actually followed the serious eats Kenji recipe for basic Neapolitan dough which has 1.5% idy with 8 hour room temperature rise then 72 hours in the refrigerator. I also did another recipe that I always use that gets good results to test the difference tomorrow on the bake both will be reballed  at the same time. I'll post some photos on my thread but I'm pretty curious to see how the finished product handles because it's definitely a crazy amount of activity from the first 3 hours both the same finished dough temperature of 70ー
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 12, 2019, 08:52:49 PM
I looked great, was good, but lacked oomph. I think the messing around with romano instead of parm led to a bit less salt. I may try adding more pepper too. And more cheese. And maybe sauce. Basically more of everything except the herbs. This pie was a bit less juicy, I think my sauce may have been a little thicker than normal for some reason.

Experimental dough, increased water by 4% to 58%. IDY a bit lower than last week and a cooler resting temp.
100% AT (un/un), 58% water, 4% oil, 1.75% salt, 0.8% sugar, 0.37% IDY
Finished mixing at 74.5 degrees.
TF was reduced to 0.090 (393 grams for 14") and I liked it.
Went into my basement fridge for a bit less than 2 days.
Then 2.5 hours at 69 degree room temp.
Then 1.5 hours in my broken kitchen fridge at 55 degrees.

I liked the dough. It had some browning, but not the toastyness that I disliked the last 2 bakes. TF was good. Additional water seemed ok.
I also reduced the stone temp modestly to 490-510 via pre-heat at 490.
Bake was 8:00 at 500, all on screen.

Next time, consider more:
Romano
Salt
Cheese
Sauce?
pepper
Maybe add in parm again?

Also, after about a year, my local supermarket started carrying boars head romano again. Used it today, but 2 tsp wasn't enough.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Little bean on January 12, 2019, 09:07:32 PM
I壇 eat that 8 days a week
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Irishboy on January 12, 2019, 09:07:57 PM
You nailed that one brother! Outstanding
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on January 12, 2019, 09:22:18 PM
Man you are so consistent - I would hate to play golf with you (or be in a pizza contest facing you) - looks totally amazing. You are turning out some of the best (if not the best) legitimate looking NY pies on the site!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jvp123 on January 12, 2019, 09:37:20 PM
You are dialed in!  :chef:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Irishboy on January 12, 2019, 10:01:40 PM
Matt I would be interested in you sauce recipe, I can see all the flavors
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 12, 2019, 10:08:42 PM
Josh,

I'm using 7/11 frozen in individual servings. After it thaws overnight in the fridge, I push it through a mesh strainer to remove the skins and seeds.

After straining I have 1.25 cups of smooth tomato. I add:
1 tsp sugar
1/2 tsp oregano (Sicilian from a stalk)
1 medium basil leaf cut into as many pieces as possible
1/64 or 1/32 tsp garlic powder
1/32 tsp black pepper (may try more some day)
1/8 tsp salt
1/4 tsp EVOO

Just before bake I add hard cheese. I was consistently using 4 tsp good Parmigiano Reggiano, but I started messing with romano again


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Irishboy on January 12, 2019, 10:12:34 PM
Josh,

I'm using 7/11 frozen in individual servings. After it thaws overnight in the fridge, I push it through a mesh strainer to remove the skins and seeds.

After straining I have 1.25 cups of smooth tomato. I add:
1 tsp sugar
1/2 tsp oregano (Sicilian from a stalk)
1 medium basil leaf cut into as many pieces as possible
1/64 or 1/32 tsp garlic powder
1/32 tsp black pepper (may try more some day)
1/8 tsp salt
1/4 tsp EVOO

Just before bake I add hard cheese. I was consistently using 4 tsp good Parmigiano Reggiano, but I started messing with romano again
Thank you Matt 


I've been meaning to try oil in my sauce I've heard it helps with a good NY melt
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 12, 2019, 10:16:42 PM
Thank you Matt 


I've been meaning to try oil in my sauce I've heard it helps with a good NY melt

Yeah, I can see that, but for me the huge difference in melt came when I started straining my sauce to get a thin almost watery sauce. I started doing this after buying some pizzeria sauce and seeing how thin it was (and baking a nice pie with it).

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Irishboy on January 12, 2019, 10:22:26 PM
Yeah, I can see that, but for me the huge difference in melt came when I started straining my sauce to get a thin almost watery sauce. I started doing this after buying some pizzeria sauce and seeing how thin it was (and baking a nice pie with it).
Ah that makes sense, your the NY melt king.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on January 13, 2019, 01:36:59 AM
Yeah, I can see that, but for me the huge difference in melt came when I started straining my sauce to get a thin almost watery sauce. I started doing this after buying some pizzeria sauce and seeing how thin it was (and baking a nice pie with it).
Matt, do your various sauce experiments hit the dough at relatively the same temperature every time? Is it something you keep an eye on is what I mean.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on January 13, 2019, 04:04:03 AM
another beautiful pie matt!  :chef:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 13, 2019, 07:13:31 AM
Matt, do your various sauce experiments hit the dough at relatively the same temperature every time? Is it something you keep an eye on is what I mean.

Ooh, great question. Generally yes because my sauce should be room temp. Normally I take the thawed tomato out of the fridge to warm up in the early afternoon and I make the sauce a few hours in advance of the bake.

Yesterday my schedule was a little off and I did get the tomato out and make the sauce later than usual. It's possible it was a bit cooler than usual and that explains a little thickness. It wouldn't have been too cool though, because before moving the tomato to my counter it spent several hours in my broken fridge at 55 degrees.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Mjs16 on January 15, 2019, 02:07:51 PM
I looked great, was good, but lacked oomph. I think the messing around with romano instead of parm led to a bit less salt. I may try adding more pepper too. And more cheese. And maybe sauce. Basically more of everything except the herbs. This pie was a bit less juicy, I think my sauce may have been a little thicker than normal for some reason.

Experimental dough, increased water by 4% to 58%. IDY a bit lower than last week and a cooler resting temp.
100% AT (un/un), 58% water, 4% oil, 1.75% salt, 0.8% sugar, 0.37% IDY
Finished mixing at 74.5 degrees.
TF was reduced to 0.090 (393 grams for 14") and I liked it.
Went into my basement fridge for a bit less than 2 days.
Then 2.5 hours at 69 degree room temp.
Then 1.5 hours in my broken kitchen fridge at 55 degrees.

I liked the dough. It had some browning, but not the toastyness that I disliked the last 2 bakes. TF was good. Additional water seemed ok.
I also reduced the stone temp modestly to 490-510 via pre-heat at 490.
Bake was 8:00 at 500, all on screen.

Next time, consider more:
Romano
Salt
Cheese
Sauce?
pepper
Maybe add in parm again?

Also, after about a year, my local supermarket started carrying boars head romano again. Used it today, but 2 tsp wasn't enough.

So your dough goes back into a fridge after rising at RT?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 15, 2019, 08:41:12 PM
So your dough goes back into a fridge after rising at RT?

Not usually, this was the first time. But it didnt go back into a typical fridge. It went into my fridge that isnt working properly and is 55 degrees basically to hold it at a good temp for opening the dough.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Mjs16 on January 16, 2019, 12:47:14 AM
Not usually, this was the first time. But it didnt go back into a typical fridge. It went into my fridge that isnt working properly and is 55 degrees basically to hold it at a good temp for opening the dough.
What is your process for mixing the dough? Have you ever used malt?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Mjs16 on January 16, 2019, 05:10:45 PM
I looked great, was good, but lacked oomph. I think the messing around with romano instead of parm led to a bit less salt. I may try adding more pepper too. And more cheese. And maybe sauce. Basically more of everything except the herbs. This pie was a bit less juicy, I think my sauce may have been a little thicker than normal for some reason.

Experimental dough, increased water by 4% to 58%. IDY a bit lower than last week and a cooler resting temp.
100% AT (un/un), 58% water, 4% oil, 1.75% salt, 0.8% sugar, 0.37% IDY
Finished mixing at 74.5 degrees.
TF was reduced to 0.090 (393 grams for 14") and I liked it.
Went into my basement fridge for a bit less than 2 days.
Then 2.5 hours at 69 degree room temp.
Then 1.5 hours in my broken kitchen fridge at 55 degrees.

I liked the dough. It had some browning, but not the toastyness that I disliked the last 2 bakes. TF was good. Additional water seemed ok.
I also reduced the stone temp modestly to 490-510 via pre-heat at 490.
Bake was 8:00 at 500, all on screen.

Next time, consider more:
Romano
Salt
Cheese
Sauce?
pepper
Maybe add in parm again?

Also, after about a year, my local supermarket started carrying boars head romano again. Used it today, but 2 tsp wasn't enough.

Is this scalable? Can I double it for two pizzas?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Irishboy on January 16, 2019, 07:58:09 PM

Is this scalable? Can I double it for two pizzas?



Since he put it in percentage is it scalable  with as many pizzas as you want you can use this calculator with the same numbers he used put the pizza size and his thickness Factor
http://www.mypizzamaster.com/calculator.php# (http://www.mypizzamaster.com/calculator.php#)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 16, 2019, 08:23:55 PM
What is your process for mixing the dough? Have you ever used malt?

I haven't tried malt. I actually use a bread machine as a mixer. I believe it does 2 minutes slow, then I let it go 7 minutes at a faster speed.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: nirc on January 23, 2019, 11:39:56 AM
I looked great, was good, but lacked oomph. I think the messing around with romano instead of parm led to a bit less salt. I may try adding more pepper too. And more cheese. And maybe sauce. Basically more of everything except the herbs. This pie was a bit less juicy, I think my sauce may have been a little thicker than normal for some reason.

Experimental dough, increased water by 4% to 58%. IDY a bit lower than last week and a cooler resting temp.
100% AT (un/un), 58% water, 4% oil, 1.75% salt, 0.8% sugar, 0.37% IDY
Finished mixing at 74.5 degrees.
TF was reduced to 0.090 (393 grams for 14") and I liked it.
Went into my basement fridge for a bit less than 2 days.
Then 2.5 hours at 69 degree room temp.
Then 1.5 hours in my broken kitchen fridge at 55 degrees.

I liked the dough. It had some browning, but not the toastyness that I disliked the last 2 bakes. TF was good. Additional water seemed ok.
I also reduced the stone temp modestly to 490-510 via pre-heat at 490.
Bake was 8:00 at 500, all on screen.

Next time, consider more:
Romano
Salt
Cheese
Sauce?
pepper
Maybe add in parm again?

Also, after about a year, my local supermarket started carrying boars head romano again. Used it today, but 2 tsp wasn't enough.

Fantastic looking pie.

What type of screen are you using? Is that 16 or 18" pie?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 23, 2019, 04:48:37 PM
Fantastic looking pie.

What type of screen are you using? Is that 16 or 18" pie?

Many thanks. It's actually a 14" pie  :-[

I'm using a handmade mesh screen that is found across shops in Queens. Below is a link to a thread about them. While I suspect these screens are better than typical screens, there's nothing magical about them. I started using it simply because I had one, and just haven't stopped. I'm well overdue for baking a stone-baked pie.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=49415.0

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on January 23, 2019, 10:48:05 PM
Many thanks. It's actually a 14" pie  :-[

I'm using a handmade mesh screen that is found across shops in Queens. Below is a link to a thread about them. While I suspect these screens are better than typical screens, there's nothing magical about them. I started using it simply because I had one, and just haven't stopped. I'm well overdue for baking a stone-baked pie.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=49415.0

They are the holy grail of screens, at the very least. I think they are a great tool for a pizza shop to utilize.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 24, 2019, 03:34:08 PM
They are the holy grail of screens, at the very least. I think they are a great tool for a pizza shop to utilize.

Sure. But if you were going to bake one pizza (as I do), would you use the screen?

It'll be interesting to see what happens when I bake without it. I'm wondering how many different changes I'd need to make if I wanted the melt to be unchanged.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on January 24, 2019, 07:58:30 PM
Sure. But if you were going to bake one pizza (as I do), would you use the screen?

It'll be interesting to see what happens when I bake without it. I'm wondering how many different changes I'd need to make if I wanted the melt to be unchanged.

It would depends how my oven was. If you can get the cheese melt without the screen, use the paddle
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: nirc on January 25, 2019, 02:44:46 PM



Since he put it in percentage is it scalable  with as many pizzas as you want you can use this calculator with the same numbers he used put the pizza size and his thickness Factor
http://www.mypizzamaster.com/calculator.php# (http://www.mypizzamaster.com/calculator.php#)


Can anyone tell me if I did it correctly for 1 x 16" pie :

GramsOunces
Flour members mark (100%)
311.06
10.97
Water (58%)
180.41
6.36
Yeast (0.37%) idy
1.15
0.04
Salt (1.75%)
5.44
0.19
Oil (4%)
12.44
0.44
Sugar (0.8%)
2.49
0.09
Single Ball
513
18.1
Dough TF = (0.09)
Number Dough Balls = 1
Pizza Size = 16 inches

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 25, 2019, 05:26:46 PM
Can anyone tell me if I did it correctly for 1 x 16" pie


Yep, that's my current formula entered correctly. Proceed at your own risk!

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 26, 2019, 08:26:15 PM
Likely another personal best  :chef:
I finally changed up my sauce base, going back to whole peeled tomato and oh man, the melt and meld!

Cento "Certified San Marzano"
Used the tomatoes only
Stick blended (first time using it)
Then strained to remove the seeds
This resulted perfectly in my usual 1.25 cups of tomato
I added 2.5 tsp of Cento paste. It didn't noticeably change the thinness, but I think it should keep it from having too watery a feel, and give it a bit of deep flavor
Usual herbs
Back to parm only, no romano this week

Dough was overstretched to a bit over 14.5".
Because of the overstretch and after a couple so-so bakes, I did the sauce and cheese amounts by eye. Sauce was a bunch of spoons more that 3/4 cup. Cheese was in the ballpark of 9.75 oz.

Bake was 7:50 all on mesh. Sauce boil was pretty to watch.
Stone pre-heated at 485 to 495-505
Oven set to 500 after launch

Dough was 58% water, 4% oil. Only 1 day CF.
Intended TF was 0.09 at 393 grams for 14", so with the overstretch, it was thin for sure.

Pre-bake pics below, pizza pics in the next post


 
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 26, 2019, 08:26:35 PM
Pizza pics
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jvp123 on January 26, 2019, 10:09:55 PM
Pizza pics

Um ... wow! I think your tweaks are finished.  :chef:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on January 27, 2019, 12:00:34 AM
Um ... wow! I think your tweaks are finished.  :chef:
I値l take the other side of that.  :-D :-D :-D


As great as it looks, he can稚 stop trying to make it better. Most of us can稚. ;D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jvp123 on January 27, 2019, 11:59:25 AM
I値l take the other side of that.  :-D :-D :-D


As great as it looks, he can稚 stop trying to make it better. Most of us can稚. ;D

Well I agree with that!  :-D   I haven't settled on a formula and I've been doing this for years now.  A couple years ago, my pie game improved to the point where I though I was "done" and that crust became "the bar."  Sine then I'm still constantly trying to improve on it.  I'll deviate off course for a while (I call it the rabbit hole) and end up back close to where I started - rinse - repeat.  The process and experimenting is worth it though and a lot of fun.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 27, 2019, 12:54:01 PM
...The process and experimenting is worth it though and a lot of fun.

 ^^^ it's why I'm here and it keeps me baking every weekend
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Jackitup on January 27, 2019, 01:47:12 PM
.......chasing the dragon.........
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: wb54885 on January 27, 2019, 01:52:42 PM
I was at Margherita in Queens yesterday, and wanted to point out one way you've managed to imitate their version of the Queens screen-style slice:

From the Margherita review video that's been posted before, this screenshot of a flat slice, compared with your shot of a flat slice from yesterday:  look at that those little flaps of cheese that hang off the edges of the slice, they're almost identicial! They look sort of pre-stringy, regularly located near the middle of the edge cut. I think they're really distinctive and probably have a lot to do with how you're getting your sauce and cheese to melt together, type of cheese being used, amount of cool-down allowed before slicing, etc.

What should we call them? Cheese wings? Edge ears? Melt badges?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 27, 2019, 02:50:17 PM
.......chasing the dragon.........

I think I see him, right over there, I might be getting closer..........
 ;D

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on January 27, 2019, 02:54:55 PM
I was at Margherita in Queens yesterday, and wanted to point out one way you've managed to imitate their version of the Queens screen-style slice:

From the Margherita review video that's been posted before, this screenshot of a flat slice, compared with your shot of a flat slice from yesterday:  look at that those little flaps of cheese that hang off the edges of the slice, they're almost identicial! They look sort of pre-stringy, regularly located near the middle of the edge cut. I think they're really distinctive and probably have a lot to do with how you're getting your sauce and cheese to melt together, type of cheese being used, amount of cool-down allowed before slicing, etc.

What should we call them? Cheese wings? Edge ears? Melt badges?

Many thanks, if I'm even in the same ballpark as Margherita that'd be a huge success!

Intersting point, it took me a while to earn my melt badges. I was actually thinking it was because my cutter is getting dull  :) But I think you're right, it's probably more about the saucyness and slicing it piping hot.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on January 28, 2019, 04:08:09 AM
Many thanks, if I'm even in the same ballpark as Margherita that'd be a huge success!

Intersting point, it took me a while to earn my melt badges. I was actually thinking it was because my cutter is getting dull  :) But I think you're right, it's probably more about the saucyness and slicing it piping hot.

Yep.  Lots of cheese + lots of sauce + gravity = cheese ears.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on February 02, 2019, 08:14:16 PM
This was a good pie, but not quite as good as last week. The magic of the parm and herbs mixing in the sauce wasn't fully there.

Changes:
Slightly more paste in the sauce (3 tsp vs 2.5 last week)
A bit more basil (larger leaf)
Stone was 510-525 via pre-heat at 500
Bake temp was set at 515
7:45 bake all on mesh

Next time:
Be careful about over-saucing, stick to heaping 3/4 cup
Try more sugar in sauce
Increase TF slightly (this pie was very inconsistently stretched, parts were too thin)


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on February 02, 2019, 11:17:31 PM
Instead of the tape measure and 5 minute stretch, would it save you any time to get a carboard circle of the size you like, set the screen on that, and stretch to the template below? Maybe you would miss your current process, which is cool and your business. I知 all about production and wish I could be quicker.  ;)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Essen1 on February 02, 2019, 11:31:24 PM
I知 sorry but I have to ask...

How do you detect the difference in flavor of 3 Tsp of tomato paste versus 2.5 Tsp?? Or the basil flavor of a 都lightly increased leaf size??

I am stumped to be honest...

One more thing, Matt. You don稚 need to increase the 典F whatsoever. Instead, improve, and pay attention to, your balling technique and you won稚 have any thin spots.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on February 03, 2019, 08:29:10 AM
Instead of the tape measure and 5 minute stretch, would it save you any time to get a carboard circle of the size you like, set the screen on that, and stretch to the template below? Maybe you would miss your current process, which is cool and your business. I知 all about production and wish I could be quicker.  ;)

The bit of shaping I do on the screen is actually quick, maybe 15 seconds. Where I spend more time is the fingertip stretch, rim formation and edge stretch. And the time spent is really do to the fact that I like getting my hands in the dough and I'm only making one pie a week. When I used to make 4 pies on the Blackstone I went faster, but for one pie I'm happy to take another minute or 2 because I enjoy the process.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on February 03, 2019, 09:55:46 AM
I知 sorry but I have to ask...

How do you detect the difference in flavor of 3 Tsp of tomato paste versus 2.5 Tsp?? Or the basil flavor of a 都lightly increased leaf size??

I am stumped to be honest...

One more thing, Matt. You don稚 need to increase the 典F whatsoever. Instead, improve, and pay attention to, your balling technique and you won稚 have any thin spots.

Did I taste a difference in flavor with a extra half teaspoon of paste? No. But I did notice the time saved while making my sauce by measuring out 1 tablespoon instead of 1+1+0.5 teaspoons. That was primary motive. But I do think there is a balancing act with paste between flavor, mouthfeel and melt.

Regarding the basil, yes, it was noticeable via taste and look. It was probably close to a 50% increase and the pieces were bigger.

I knew mentioning TF and thin spots together could lead to confusion. It's 2 separate things. An increase in dough weight obviously wont fix thin spots. But I did think that on average the crust was too thin for the amount of sauce I used.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Essen1 on February 03, 2019, 12:06:59 PM
Did I taste a difference in flavor with a extra half teaspoon of paste? No. But I did notice the time saved while making my sauce by measuring out 1 tablespoon instead of 1+1+0.5 teaspoons. That was primary motive. But I do think there is a balancing act with paste between flavor, mouthfeel and melt.

Regarding the basil, yes, it was noticeable via taste and look. It was probably close to a 50% increase and the pieces were bigger.

I knew mentioning TF and thin spots together could lead to confusion. It's 2 separate things. An increase in dough weight obviously wont fix thin spots. But I did think that on average the crust was too thin for the amount of sauce I used.

Well, that make sense. And I already thought you had Spiderman senses  ;D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on February 17, 2019, 07:27:38 PM
This pie was nothing special. I went with 25% more sugar in the sauce and I think it was too much. I also thought the sauce lacked tomato flavor, and it may have been muddied. The tomato in this can of Cento SM yielded more water than the previous couple, and the sauce was noticeably thinner (even with 1 tbs of paste added). I did taste a bit of a re-heated slice next day, however, and the herbyness tasted great.

I may need to experiment with letting the sauce sit overnight.

I may also try again leaving part of my sauce somewhat chunky, which is something I played with a couple years ago. This may help the tomato flavor.

This was a 7:30 bake with 6:15 on mesh and 1:15 direct on stone. The crust could've used more bake time. The stone time didn't seem to make much of a difference. I need more time and/or hotter stone. The stone was around 515. I pulled the pie to prevent the cheese from going overboard. This was a very consistent melt across the pie.

Pizza was overstretched to 14.5", but I stuck with 3/4 cup sauce. I liked it, it wasn't crazy saucy. 9.25 oz mozz.

Next time:
Back to usual sugar in sauce
Maybe have a bit of the sauce chunky
Maybe make the sauce earlier and let it marinate
Stone hotter, but don't increase the oven temp. Goal is to bake the crust more, but not the cheese
Not too much sauce
Maybe a bit more than 9oz mozz again
Not sure on TF, maybe increase a bit (though I tried to increase this time, but overstreched)
Edit: try applying the sauce cold from the fridge to see if it slows down the melt and/or helps flavor marination
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on February 19, 2019, 02:03:18 PM
I知 envious of your stretching skills!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on February 20, 2019, 12:04:13 AM
I知 envious of your stretching skills!

Thanks! It was stretched almost entirely while on the countertop. Only the final inch or so was stretched in the air. I find it easier to control while on the counter.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: mrmafix on February 20, 2019, 02:24:23 PM
This pie was nothing special. I went with 25% more sugar in the sauce and I think it was too much. I also thought the sauce lacked tomato flavor, and it may have been muddied. The tomato in this can of Cento SM yielded more water than the previous couple, and the sauce was noticeably thinner (even with 1 tbs of paste added). I did taste a bit of a re-heated slice next day, however, and the herbyness tasted great.

I may need to experiment with letting the sauce sit overnight.

I may also try again leaving part of my sauce somewhat chunky, which is something I played with a couple years ago. This may help the tomato flavor.

This was a 7:30 bake with 6:15 on mesh and 1:15 direct on stone. The crust could've used more bake time. The stone time didn't seem to make much of a difference. I need more time and/or hotter stone. The stone was around 515. I pulled the pie to prevent the cheese from going overboard. This was a very consistent melt across the pie.

Pizza was overstretched to 14.5", but I stuck with 3/4 cup sauce. I liked it, it wasn't crazy saucy. 9.25 oz mozz.

Next time:
Back to usual sugar in sauce
Maybe have a bit of the sauce chunky
Maybe make the sauce earlier and let it marinate
Stone hotter, but don't increase the oven temp. Goal is to bake the crust more, but not the cheese
Not too much sauce
Maybe a bit more than 9oz mozz again
Not sure on TF, maybe increase a bit (though I tried to increase this time, but overstreched)
Edit: try applying the sauce cold from the fridge to see if it slows down the melt and/or helps flavor marination

What kind of oil do you add to the dough?  Also, do you have your mixing technique listed anywhere?  Your pies look awesome! 
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on February 21, 2019, 10:00:23 AM
What kind of oil do you add to the dough?  Also, do you have your mixing technique listed anywhere?  Your pies look awesome!

Thanks! I'll start with my usual disclaimer - while many (most?) people here are dough-enthusiasts, my focus has always been on sauce & cheese. I'm really just starting to learn more about dough.

I use "light olive oil", which is essentially flavorless (and therefore also works well when cooking eggs). I use a bread machine as a mixer. It mixes a few minutes at low speed, then add the oil, then about 10 minutes on medium speed.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: mrmafix on February 21, 2019, 01:40:38 PM
Thanks! I'll start with my usual disclaimer - while many (most?) people here are dough-enthusiasts, my focus has always been on sauce & cheese. I'm really just starting to learn more about dough.

I use "light olive oil", which is essentially flavorless (and therefore also works well when cooking eggs). I use a bread machine as a mixer. It mixes a few minutes at low speed, then add the oil, then about 10 minutes on medium speed.

Thank you! 
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 02, 2019, 08:47:50 PM
Loads of changes, and a nice improvement

1. New pizza stone - I figured I'd give the thicker CA stones a shot, 16x16x1. I wasn't expecting a big difference given I'm baking on the mesh screen, but it was a noticeable improvement. The undercrust had a light but more stable crisp, a little bit of char flavor and was just baked better. The stone was 515-520 degrees, and the bake time was 7:45, entirely on the mesh (with the oven set to 515).

2. New tomatoes - while walking through the supermarket, Muir Glen Organic Whole Peeled caught my eye because of the 'field to can in 8 hours' logo. When I realized they were from CA I was determined to try them. It was a nice tomato flavor, less tart than the Cento I had been using.

3. Slightly chunky sauce - From the Muir Glen I mixed 80% blended and strained and 20% pulsed to a consistency of crushed tomato. I only added 2 tsp of paste. I didn't really notice the chunks in the final product, and even the raw sauce that was leftover didn't have big chunks. I may need to either add more chunks, bigger chunks, or add them just before bake. I'm wondering if the stirring or marinating caused the chunks to shrink.

4. Sauce made a little earlier and rested in the fridge - it's a bit hard to say, but I think this helped. At times I really noticed a nice herbyness.

Next time I'll do mostly the same. I do want to mess with the ratios slightly, a touch less sauce, a bit more dough.
Edit: I may want to try MAE. And I just noticed that November recommended MAE then a minimum of 6 hours in the fridge. (I would've assumed MAE could be done just before bake.)

 
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on March 03, 2019, 12:42:24 AM
Matt, great stuff! Do you have a sense why the underside of the cornicone is lighter than the rest of the slice?

Best,
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 03, 2019, 06:38:50 AM
Matt, great stuff! Do you have a sense why the underside of the cornicone is lighter than the rest of the slice?

Best,

Thanks! The light ring on the undercrust is an interesting topic. IIRC there was a pretty lengthy discussion about this in the original Blackstone thread as there was concern it was a side-effect of the Blackstone. But it turns out that this is a common trait across different types of ovens for both homebakers and pizzerias.

Does anyone (Peter, Norma?) remember reaching a conclusion? I don't remember if The Dough Doctor weighed in.

Below is a pic that I posted previously, comparing my slice to Amore in Queens. See how big their light ring is.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: HansB on March 03, 2019, 07:26:40 AM
No toppings, so less weight around the edge maybe?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on March 03, 2019, 11:10:09 AM
Look at that! Thanks Matt!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on March 04, 2019, 06:35:10 PM
I'm gonna send you some ricotta and a few garlic cloves lol. Make a white pie. Give the slice pie a break. Youre so far down the rabbit hole it's gonna be impossible to decipher these small changes. Perspective is lost. Give your palette and mind a rest from cheese pizza.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 04, 2019, 08:20:15 PM
I'm gonna send you some ricotta and a few garlic cloves lol. Make a white pie. Give the slice pie a break. Youre so far down the rabbit hole it's gonna be impossible to decipher these small changes. Perspective is lost. Give your palette and mind a rest from cheese pizza.

My wife would thank you as white pies are her favorite  :)

I hear you about stepping back and gaining perspective when re-engaging. I took a few months break to work on greek pan pizza at one point. But the reality is that NY style cheese pizza is my favorite and it's what I want to eat (almost) every week. As long as I'm enjoying making and eating it then the real mission is accomplished.

But I also dont think things like stone thickness, tomato brand and sauce consistency are small changes.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: TheDukeofNY on March 05, 2019, 05:33:39 PM
Great looking pie.  Would suggest you stretch at least an 18 inch pie I read some of your thread the kind of adjustments the bigger one would be changing diameter the flavors and all that changes. 
 

I'm the Duke of NY.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 05, 2019, 07:36:44 PM
Great looking pie.  Would suggest you stretch at least an 18 inch pie I read some of your thread the kind of adjustments the bigger one would be changing diameter the flavors and all that changes. 
 

I'm the Duke of NY.

Would like to, but would need a capable oven!

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on March 05, 2019, 10:57:41 PM
Would like to, but would need a capable oven!

Do it.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: vtsteve on March 06, 2019, 12:30:42 AM
I'm the Duke of NY.

You're A-number one!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlXHCykk7fU
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on March 06, 2019, 12:39:23 PM
But the reality is that NY style cheese pizza is my favorite and it's what I want to eat (almost) every week. As long as I'm enjoying making and eating it then the real mission is accomplished.

matt, I suspect Josh is reacting to the fact that when one reaches your level of mastery, it's hard to visually detect the changes you're making. And when we do, it's hard to connect those changes to the flavor palate. Still, I love to read about your process and see your results!

it's funny, no matter what toppings I concoct, the plain cheese slice is always our favorite. Toppings seem to detract rather than enhance our enjoyment. Hot oil is another story, have you given it a try?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jvp123 on March 06, 2019, 12:42:35 PM
matt, it's funny, no matter what toppings I concoct, the plain cheese slice is always our favorite. Toppings seem to detract rather than enhance our enjoyment. Hot oil is another story, have you given it a try?

QD, what do use for your hot oil?  Homemade?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on March 06, 2019, 04:26:05 PM
Jeff,

  We try to grow calabrian chili peppers as described in craig's thread:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=19368.0

the first year we spent ~20 hours planting, watering, transferring plants but the combination of NY's relatively short growing season, our wooded property and my famously bad green thumb conspired to limit our harvest to a single chili pepper  :o Last year, determined to do better, we planted earlier and moved the plants during the day to ensure better sunlight. After closer to 30 hours of work, we managed just 10 peppers.

So now I nip on over the grocery store and purchase a bottle of Cento Extra Hot Calabrese Peperoncino, mix a half teaspoon or so into some very good evo and drizzle the resulting slurry on pizza.

We have a friend that cooked at a michelin starred restaurant and is a fabulous baker/pizza maker. We had him and his family over for a pizza dinner, I served the first cheese pie without oil and the second with; he picked up a bottle of the Peperoncino on the way home. It's also terrific in puttanesca and ariabatta sauces instead of chili flakes.

best,
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jvp123 on March 06, 2019, 04:30:40 PM
Jeff,

  We try to grow calabrian chili peppers as described in craig's thread:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=19368.0

the first year we spent ~20 hours planting, watering, transferring plants but the combination of NY's relatively short growing season, our wooded property and my famously bad green thumb conspired to limit our harvest to a single chili pepper  :o Last year, determined to do better, we planted earlier and moved the plants during the day to ensure better sunlight. After closer to 30 hours of work, we managed just 10 peppers.

So now I nip on over the grocery store and purchase a bottle of Cento Extra Hot Calabrese Peperoncino, mix a half teaspoon or so into some very good evo and drizzle the slurry on the pizza.

We have a friend that cooked at a michelin starred restaurant and is a fabulous baker/pizza maker. We had him and his family over for a pizza dinner, I served the first cheese pie without oil and the second with; he picked up a bottle of the Peperoncino on the way home. It's also terrific in puttanesca and ariabatta sauces instead of chili flakes.

best,

Cool thanks - I've gone thru a few bottles of those myself.  They are great. 
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on March 06, 2019, 05:07:23 PM
matt, I suspect Josh is reacting to the fact that when one reaches your level of mastery, it's hard to visually detect the changes you're making. And when we do, it's hard to connect those changes to the flavor palate. Still, I love to read about your process and see your results!

it's funny, no matter what toppings I concoct, the plain cheese slice is always our favorite. Toppings seem to detract rather than enhance our enjoyment. Hot oil is another story, have you given it a try?

Josh needs to understand that people with day jobs that don't include a pizza oven don't have many iterations to perfect a pie.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: TheDukeofNY on March 07, 2019, 01:47:34 PM
You're A-number one!



(cowbells)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KbzhF_G8aXs&fbclid=IwAR1TVqRkVhTSrDgEgrvuLQ0eOEv5ZLOFLOUWFmT1BQhq4Nyh1AGMnB66glo
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: TheDukeofNY on March 07, 2019, 03:15:11 PM
Josh needs to understand that people with day jobs that don't include a pizza oven don't have many iterations to perfect a pie.

This works. 

https://bakerspride.com/bp-products/countertop-ovens/hearthbake-series-electric-oven-model-p22s
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Little bean on March 07, 2019, 04:09:05 PM
Josh needs to understand that people with day jobs that don't include a pizza oven don't have many iterations to perfect a pie.

I guess all the professional pizza makers need to stop following this thread. If you don稚 have a pizza oven you can not make a white pie. What a shame I was enjoying it, Matt makes a better New York style pie than I do.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Josh123 on March 07, 2019, 04:12:10 PM
Josh needs to understand that people with day jobs that don't include a pizza oven don't have many iterations to perfect a pie.

Josh was also once a home pizza maker who tried various styles of pizza because A. It keeps you sharp and creative and B. Helps you gain perspective on your main pizzas. Matt has made his cheese pizza enough that this has nothing to do with day jobs. I simply think when week after week you're talking about tweaking 3/8th of a tsp of oregano then yes, youre losing perspective down the rabbit hole.

But Alas, Matt wasnt offended; i dont think you need to be for him.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on March 07, 2019, 04:24:11 PM
Josh was also once a home pizza maker who tried various styles of pizza because A. It keeps you sharp and creative and B. Helps you gain perspective on your main pizzas. Matt has made his cheese pizza enough that this has nothing to do with day jobs. I simply think when week after week you're talking about tweaking 3/8th of a tsp of oregano then yes, youre losing perspective down the rabbit hole.

But Alas, Matt wasnt offended; i dont think you need to be for him.

From my perspective, you make more pizza in a day than most of us make in a year.  As a former home baker, I thought you might get that.  I haven't got where I want to be in terms of quality and consistency.  I'm not offended and you shouldn't be, either. 
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Little bean on March 07, 2019, 05:07:01 PM
From my perspective, you make more pizza in a day than most of us make in a year.  As a former home baker, I thought you might get that.  I haven't got where I want to be in terms of quality and consistency.  I'm not offended and you shouldn't be, either.


If a home baker had suggested Matt make a white pie what would your reaction have been?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on March 07, 2019, 05:48:22 PM

If a home baker had suggested Matt make a white pie what would your reaction have been?

Do it.

Matt should do what Matt wants to do.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Little bean on March 07, 2019, 05:53:42 PM
Do it.

Matt should do what Matt wants to do.

I get it
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 07, 2019, 08:55:25 PM

Matt should do what Matt wants to do.

And I do  :)

I agree with many of the points made. I'll make maybe 40 NY pizzas in a year, so progress is slow. As I said earlier I actually agree about the perspective point. But first and foremost, I make what I have an appetite for each weekend. And it happens that almost always a NY cheese pie is what I have an appetite for.

Also, my changes are often "small" to hedge myself. Given I only eat pizza once a week, and more importantly stick to a "healthy" diet the rest of the time, the last thing I want to do is end up with a disapointing pie. Too much salt, or pepper or xyz can ruin it for me.

Anyway, I include text for anyone who wants to read it. For everyone else, feel free to skip ahead to the pictures  :chef:



Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 07, 2019, 09:13:20 PM
...
it's funny, no matter what toppings I concoct, the plain cheese slice is always our favorite. Toppings seem to detract rather than enhance our enjoyment. Hot oil is another story, have you given it a try?

Never really tried it. Tasted it at Don Antonio and quickly confirmed I'm a whimp when it comes to heat. I can see why people like it and know that tons of people dump red pepper flakes on their slices. It's worth a shot at some point and I actually have a bottle of calabrian peppers that have been sitting for a long while. (It's actually next to my unopened bottle of nduja.)

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: TheDukeofNY on March 07, 2019, 10:21:36 PM
Josh needs to understand that people with day jobs that don't include a pizza oven don't have many iterations to perfect a pie.

I would disagree with this.  The Op is trying to replicate a pizza from a NY pizzeria they are at least 16" the  majority 18".  Making a 14" pie won't get the same with all the inputs he's experimenting with.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on March 07, 2019, 10:53:09 PM
I would disagree with this.  The Op is trying to replicate a pizza from a NY pizzeria they are at least 16" the  majority 18".  Making a 14" pie won't get the same with all the inputs he's experimenting with.

Huh? That supports my claim that he needs to experiment.

Would like to, but would need a capable oven!

Do it.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 09, 2019, 07:34:47 PM
Nice pie. New stone worked well again. Ratios a bit off, a bit more cheese than sauce.

Crust baked well. This dough was more fermented. Stone temp ~525. Oven temp turned up to 535 at launch (my max possible temp). 8:00 bake, last 0:45 direct on stone.

Tried out MAE, certainly didn't hurt. Sauce went into the fridge at 10am.

The Muir Glen seems less watery than Cento (not 100% certain b/c I tainted the comparison by draining just a little water). But seeing the thickness led me to forget to add any paste.

Next time want to try the sauce without the 20% portion of chunky.

My parm is probably stale at this point. I want to try a bit of romano again.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Little bean on March 10, 2019, 12:43:47 PM
To my eye this looks like one of your best pies yet.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 10, 2019, 01:48:19 PM
To my eye this looks like one of your best pies yet.

Thanks! My crust is improving alot. Need a few tweaks to get my melt back where I want it (will do thin sauce and one oven rack higher next week). And I'm still missing some sauce flavor. Will elaborate on that hopefully later today.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: goosta on March 10, 2019, 01:55:59 PM
Nice! That looks great.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Pazzo on March 10, 2019, 01:59:04 PM
Your pizza looks amazing. I'm not familiar with screens. What does it do opposed to just baking the entire time on a stone?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 10, 2019, 02:40:14 PM
Your pizza looks amazing. I'm not familiar with screens. What does it do opposed to just baking the entire time on a stone?

It slows down the undercrust bake a bit and allows you to open and launch the dough without any bench flour. (For amateurs it also helps in making a round pizza and in avoiding a failed launch). For pros, it allows them to dress a bunch of pies before a rush hour.

I don't think the screen makes my pies better, but it's a habit for me at this point. I'm overdue for a purely stone-baked pie.

And thanks!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on March 10, 2019, 02:49:38 PM
matt, another great bake! what's the texture of your crust like?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 10, 2019, 03:07:35 PM
matt, another great bake! what's the texture of your crust like?

Hmm..a little bit of crisp when it comes out of the oven. A small chew layer, then a thin wet/gum layer. At least I'm trying for those 3 components.

Occasional thin spots, which are soggy yet delightful.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 10, 2019, 08:18:07 PM
So this was a cool experiment. I did pretty much my usual bake process, but entirely with ingredients from a local pizzeria. Seemed like a good activity for me and the kids on a rainy Sunday. I purchased a large doughball and 2 large pizzas worth of sauce and cheese from pizzeria A. (For reference, the pizzaiolo told me that the amount of cheese on a large pizza is "one and a half handfuls"  :) ) This was enough for my pizza and 2 smaller pizzas that my kids made.

I used 404 grams of the dough for 14" (TF=0.0925). A bit less than 3/4 cup sauce (as I knocked some out of my measuring cups accidently with my camera strap) and 8+3/8 oz mozz. So it was a little less cheese and sauce than my usual pies, but I stretched this on the small side, to just about 14". Bake time was 8 minutes with 7 minutes on the mesh and 1 direct on stone. The stone was ~525 and the oven was set to 535. The stone was on the middle rack, which is one rack higher than what I've been using.

Main point - their sauce! Similar to mine, which isn't surprising because I was heavily influenced by them, seemingly just whole peeled blended to a watery consistency with a bunch of dried herbs. But, the sauce had some extra flavors, including I suspect both black pepper and red pepper flakes, and an unknown ingredient that was really crucial. I was tasting the sauce raw and on the pie side by side. I convinced myself the flavor was of raw onion, and assumed it was onion powder. But the onion powder we have in the pantry tasted sweet. This was more spicy. I really want to know that flavor.

The dough was very fermented, had that feel and bubbliness. But it was a challenge to open. It took some muscle and wasn't easy to shape. It baked up real nice though.

Questions for the readers
1) Does onion powder come in multiple varieties? Are there some that taste like spicy raw onion, rather than a sweeter onion?

2) Is there a way blend red pepper flakes into a sauce? It tasted like it was there, but it wasn't visible. Maybe it was just black pepper, not sure.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Pete-zza on March 10, 2019, 08:55:38 PM

1) Does onion powder come in multiple varieties? Are there some that taste like spicy raw onion, rather than a sweeter onion?

Matt,

Some time ago, I did a fair amount of research on garlic powders and was surprised how many variations there were among the many different brands. You can read about my research in the thread at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40159.msg400531#msg400531

I cite the above thread only to say that I would not be surprised if there are similar variations in onion powders as I found for garlic powders. I even did a search at https://www.foodservicedirect.com/catalogsearch/result/index?q=onion%20powder to give you idea as what to expect.

Peter
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Whisky on March 10, 2019, 10:38:44 PM
That is some good looking pizza (as are all of yours). Motivation to start playing around with some NY formulations...Do you cook on stone or steel?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on March 10, 2019, 11:42:41 PM
You really got the cheese to tomato blend down, also nice screen!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on March 11, 2019, 06:52:37 AM
I think you're the new Pizzeria A. They just moved down to B  :-D




Great work, Matt!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 11, 2019, 07:17:11 AM
That is some good looking pizza (as are all of yours). Motivation to start playing around with some NY formulations...Do you cook on stone or steel?

Thanks! I bake using a stone and a handmade woven mesh screen that's found at pizzerias in Queens and Long Island (and now some in Manhattan).

Just a few bakes ago I switched to a thicker California pizza stone and it's made a nice improvement. You can see a pic of my new stone here:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=51924.msg568101#msg568101

Here is a thread dedicated to the mesh screens:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=49415.0

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on March 11, 2019, 10:46:17 AM
Matt, that is an odd coincidence! I recently saw someone leave our local pizza shop (where I buy grande) with a dough ball, sauce, and cheese and thought it would be a good idea to bake up their ingredients. I don't like their sauce but interested to see if the crust texture bakes up differently.

anyhow, my guy is very open about what's in his sauce, you might save a lot of time by just asking the guy who sold you the stuff?

best,
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 11, 2019, 11:51:25 AM

anyhow, my guy is very open about what's in his sauce, you might save a lot of time by just asking the guy who sold you the stuff?

best,

What's in their sauce?

I haven't established a relationship at this particular shop, and couldn't get a convincing straight answer on whether the cheese was whole milk or not...didnt even ask brand. So I don't have high hopes, but agreed, it'd be great if the just told me the spices.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on March 11, 2019, 02:09:23 PM
What's in their sauce?

pepper, garlic, basil, oregano and a little sugar. He showed me his invoices with cost and brands! If he's not busy, he likes to see photos of my pizza. I'd guess your photos might be a little threatening to a pizza operator.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on March 12, 2019, 06:32:29 AM
pepper, garlic, basil, oregano and a little sugar. He showed me his invoices with cost and brands! If he's not busy, he likes to see photos of my pizza. I'd guess your photos might be a little threatening to a pizza operator.

He sounds like a nice guy. I don't get why more operators aren't more open and sharing of information. I understand not wanting to give up your secret but at least share some wisdom! I'm amazed at how passionate some pizza makers are. I wish we had more of that pride and passion over here.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Whisky on March 12, 2019, 11:46:06 AM
And so it begins...


Planning to cook on my 16" stone from the Blackstone, in the oven. Middle rack, preheated 550 for an hour?

I also have a 14x15.5 CA Pizza Stone I could use instead. Or do a 2 stone bake?

Welcome to any other suggestions as well. Thanks !!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on March 12, 2019, 12:04:36 PM
whisky, good luck! I love your old school notes, you might find it a little easier to use member Norcosia's pizza calculator. It has a "copy bbcode to clipboard" button which allows you to paste text into the forum:

http://www.mypizzamaster.com/calculator.php

also, matt, is that right, 3/4 cup for a 14 incher? I'm using much less sauce...

best,
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Whisky on March 12, 2019, 12:15:11 PM
whisky, good luck! I love your old school notes, you might find it a little easier to use member Norcosia's pizza calculator. It has a "copy bbcode to clipboard" button which allows you to paste text into the forum:

http://www.mypizzamaster.com/calculator.php

also, matt, is that right, 3/4 cup for a 14 incher? I'm using much less sauce...

best,

Thank you, and thanks for the tip on the calculator. I actually have been using that calculator for formulas, but was uncertain of the "copy" option on it.

Clarification on the sauce quantity would be awesome!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 12, 2019, 06:13:18 PM
And so it begins...

Planning to cook on my 16" stone from the Blackstone, in the oven. Middle rack, preheated 550 for an hour?

I also have a 14x15.5 CA Pizza Stone I could use instead. Or do a 2 stone bake?

Welcome to any other suggestions as well. Thanks !!

Awesome, I look forward to seeing your results! Comments:

Dough - thats the basic formula I've been using. I vary my IDY based on the time and temp, you should do the same. (I'm in a funny spot where I have 1 fridge that's too cold and 1 that's too warm).

Stone - use the CA stone only. At least an hour pre-heat. Do you have an IR thermometer?

Sauce amount - yes, I use about 3/4 cup+ for a 14" pie, which is saucy.

Sauce consistency - if you want the wet melt, the sauce should be thin and smooth. A blender plus strainer (or mill) using whole peeled tomato.

Hard cheese - note that I put 4 tsp parm into 1.25 cups sauce, but only use 0.75 cups sauce. So not the entire 4 tsp makes it onto the pie. And if using romano, I use less as its stronger.

Mozz - I use 9oz for 14", your picture said 9.75. Also, I'm using a 50/50 blend of whole milk and part skim. If you use only whole milk, use less than 9oz.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on March 12, 2019, 07:49:34 PM
Awesome, I look forward to seeing your results! Comments:

Dough - thats the basic formula I've been using. I vary my IDY based on the time and temp, you should do the same. (I'm in a funny spot where I have 1 fridge that's too cold and 1 that's too warm).

Stone - use the CA stone only. At least an hour pre-heat. Do you have an IR thermometer?

Sauce amount - yes, I use about 3/4 cup+ for a 14" pie, which is saucy.

Sauce consistency - if you want the wet melt, the sauce should be thin and smooth. A blender plus strainer (or mill) using whole peeled tomato.

Hard cheese - note that I put 4 tsp parm into 1.25 cups sauce, but only use 0.75 cups sauce. So not the entire 4 tsp makes it onto the pie. And if using romano, I use less as its stronger.

Mozz - I use 9oz for 14", your picture said 9.75. Also, I'm using a 50/50 blend of whole milk and part skim. If you use only whole milk, use less than 9oz.


I didn't want to answer a question directed at you, but we're squarely on the same page.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Whisky on March 12, 2019, 07:54:16 PM
Awesome, I look forward to seeing your results! Comments:

Dough - thats the basic formula I've been using. I vary my IDY based on the time and temp, you should do the same. (I'm in a funny spot where I have 1 fridge that's too cold and 1 that's too warm).

Stone - use the CA stone only. At least an hour pre-heat. Do you have an IR thermometer?

Sauce amount - yes, I use about 3/4 cup+ for a 14" pie, which is saucy.

Sauce consistency - if you want the wet melt, the sauce should be thin and smooth. A blender plus strainer (or mill) using whole peeled tomato.

Hard cheese - note that I put 4 tsp parm into 1.25 cups sauce, but only use 0.75 cups sauce. So not the entire 4 tsp makes it onto the pie. And if using romano, I use less as its stronger.

Mozz - I use 9oz for 14", your picture said 9.75. Also, I'm using a 50/50 blend of whole milk and part skim. If you use only whole milk, use less than 9oz.

Thank you sir for the additional info! I do have an IR thermometer. I just realized my home oven only goes to 500.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 12, 2019, 08:26:18 PM
Thank you sir for the additional info! I do have an IR thermometer. I just realized my home oven only goes to 500.

500 is ok. Just bake until it's done to your liking. (For me I like orange grease)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 12, 2019, 08:29:26 PM

I didn't want to answer a question directed at you, but we're squarely on the same page.

On which, I'm guessing the stone? My CA stone is making a larger difference on the crust than I expected (in a good way). Though my melt isnt the same, which I'm guessing is because the mammoth stone is taking all the heat from my little oven.

(And even when I used my Blackstone, I didn't use the stock stone.)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on March 12, 2019, 08:35:17 PM
Though my melt isnt the same, which I'm guessing is because the mammoth stone is taking all the heat from my little oven.

That's not going to happen unless you don't preheat it to equilibrium.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 12, 2019, 08:38:23 PM
That's not going to happen unless you don't preheat it to equilibrium.

I wasn't a physics major (or minor) and am lost.  But I remember seeing comments to leave a 1" gap around all sides of the stone. But I have zero gap at the door and maybe 1/4" in the back.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Jackitup on March 12, 2019, 10:15:40 PM
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=27572.msg279397#msg279397

A short thread on it, according to Scott123, gap on the sides of 1"  is the most important, tight front to back.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 13, 2019, 09:17:49 PM
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=27572.msg279397#msg279397

A short thread on it, according to Scott123, gap on the sides of 1"  is the most important, tight front to back.

Thanks. Could be. I'll need to experiment. Something is impacting my melt, but I made a bunch of changes at once, so it's hard to say the cause.


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on March 14, 2019, 10:51:36 PM
Your pizzas are looking great Matt, this last one with dough from your local shop really baked up with some nice color!  :chef:

Interesting to see you're back to Whole Peeled tomatoes, that's also where I've ventured back to, still passing through the food mill. The juice packing adds so much freshness to me.

How did the sauce compare baked in your oven vs the pizzeria? Did it taste the same?



Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on March 14, 2019, 10:58:34 PM
I wasn't a physics major (or minor) and am lost.  But I remember seeing comments to leave a 1" gap around all sides of the stone. But I have zero gap at the door and maybe 1/4" in the back.

What about left and right?  Convection?  I've got a gas oven.  Bottom heat only.   IR broiler, but don't use it.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 15, 2019, 07:05:54 AM
Your pizzas are looking great Matt, this last one with dough from your local shop really baked up with some nice color!  :chef:

Interesting to see you're back to Whole Peeled tomatoes, that's also where I've ventured back to, still passing through the food mill. The juice packing adds so much freshness to me.

How did the sauce compare baked in your oven vs the pizzeria? Did it taste the same?

Thanks Ryan! Good to hear from you. Heads up your PM box is full.

I'm liking the whole peeled alot. I had previously found the Cento a bit too wet feeling,  but the video below inspired me to give them a shot, knowing I could add a touch of paste if needed. So far the Muir Glen seem less watery, and the paste may not be necessary, will confirm this weekend.

Good question regarding the flavor of my bake vs the pizzeria. I'm really not sure as I don't generally eat their pizza. I like their salads and wraps, but the pizza is very thick and I dont like the ratios. I bought the ingredients from them because I new their doughball was 800 grams, and therefore large enough for my 14" pie and 2 small pies my kids made. Naturally I'd say I liked my ratios and resulting bake better than theirs, even with their deck ovens, but it's personal preference and they have a solid business going.

https://youtu.be/lzAk5wAImFQ


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 15, 2019, 07:18:02 AM
What about left and right?  Convection?  I've got a gas oven.  Bottom heat only.   IR broiler, but don't use it.

I haven't measured the gaps on the sides, below is a pic I posted previously, maybe 1.5" per side?

No convection. Electric oven bottom heated by elements hidden below the floor. There is an electric coil at the top for the broiler, but I've never used it.

I was baking on the 2nd from bottom rack. But the last bake, with the pizzeria ingredients, I went one rack higher to the middle rack. I was planning to do that again this week.

I was also considering dropping the stone temp a little, in case I want to let the pie bake longer...though I don't think I've ever gone longer than 8 minutes.

Lastly, I'll make sure my sauce is thin, and my sauce/cheese ratio is saucy.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on March 15, 2019, 10:06:24 AM
I put my stone directly on the floor of the oven.  Works great for me. 
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Pazzo on March 15, 2019, 05:30:48 PM
If you wanted your sauce to be tangier (tangy-er? tangyer?) have more tang, what would you add?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on March 15, 2019, 07:00:51 PM
I am not sure if you mentioned how long your preheat is with new stone but I'm sure you already know, the thicker the stone the longer it takes to saturate itself with heat.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 15, 2019, 07:16:57 PM
I am not sure if you mentioned how long your preheat is with new stone but I'm sure you already know, the thicker the stone the longer it takes to saturate itself with heat.

Yep. I use IR gun to check. Preheat is about 1.5 hours, which seems longer than I need

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 15, 2019, 07:19:00 PM
If you wanted your sauce to be tangier (tangy-er? tangyer?) have more tang, what would you add?

I'm not sure I even know what tang is  :)  But many canned tomatoes have added citric acid. I remember reading someone here experimenting with it. I've also read people use red wine vinegar. Maybe given that a shot?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on March 15, 2019, 11:58:45 PM
I'm not sure I even know what tang is

It's that stuff the astronauts drank on the moon.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 16, 2019, 08:39:39 PM
I got my melt back  :chef:

The major factor was altering my ratios. I studied the pre-bake pics of my pies, and it was clear I had to add more sauce. The reason is that the Muir Glenn WP has significantly less water than Cento SM. So even when using the same volume amount (~3/4 cup), it just wasn't covering right. I did this by eye, adding several half spoonfuls of sauce in addition to my heaping 3/4 cup. I also ended up only using ~8.5oz mozz, again based on the look. (Note to self that I did make other changes too, such as stone one rack higher and sauce being applied at room temp, but I'm confident that the smooth heavy-handed sauce was the driver of the melt.)

Bake was 8:15 with 6:45 on mesh and 1:30 direct on stone. Stone temp 510-520, oven temp 535. I also want to remove some of the credit I've been giving to the CA stone for the way my crust was baked the prior 2 bakes. The less watery sauce was definitely a part of it.

My challenge now is to get the 'right' undercrust. One problem is that I don't know exactly what I want. But I also stretched this pie inconsistently. The thinner areas ended up soggy, the thicker areas were better. I also think that a bit of a gumline is 100% required for me.

I experimented with the sauce by using some cayenne pepper and a small amount of fresh garlic. I'm not compelled to do either again next time (but should experiment more with this in the future).


Next bake:
- Back to usual pepper and garlic in the sauce
- Try a bit of romano
- Maybe slightly higher TF
- Figure out how to open the dough consistently. This dough is too easy too open. Maybe have it cooler.
- Sort out proper IDY to enable me to leave the dough in my (now fixed) fridge. This time I took the dough out a couple times to get the yeast going. Amount was 0.375%.

Note regarding the pics - with the time change there's a little bit of sunlight out when I took these pics. So I adjusted my custom white balance for the first time in a very long time. I'm not so sure I like the resulting color. Will need to adjust every week for a while as it gets brighter. Edit: the color on my phone is horrendous  >:( very annoying


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on March 16, 2019, 09:06:35 PM
Nice one Matt, It looks really melty! The thinner sauce seems to keep the cheese nice and stretchy  ;D

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Whisky on March 17, 2019, 09:47:22 AM
Here are my first attempts at a more serious NY pizza. Lets just call them ND pizza for now..The pepperoni one came out better. I had it stretched thinner and less toppings. I still didn't have it perfect 14" and have a ways to go obviously. But it was a nice change of pace.

 I loved all the sauce. I just realized I have been going too light all these years. I enjoyed it blended smooth.
I also liked the texture from some semolina used in the bench flour.



Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: PizzaJerk on March 17, 2019, 09:58:41 AM
Bake was 8:15 with 6:45 on mesh and 1:30 direct on stone. Stone temp 510-520, oven temp 535. I also want to remove some of the credit I've been giving to the CA stone for the way my crust was baked the prior 2 bakes. The less watery sauce was definitely a part of it.

My challenge now is to get the 'right' undercrust. One problem is that I don't know exactly what I want. But I also stretched this pie inconsistently. The thinner areas ended up soggy, the thicker areas were better. I also think that a bit of a gumline is 100% required for me.

Nice melt!

I know it seems as if I'm trying to steer you away from screen use because I'm not a big fan of them but I really think that if you tried lowering your bake temp back to 500, used the same consistency of sauce and bake directly on the stone you would get the undercrust you want while still retaining that nice melt you've got going on. Even if you checked the bottom part way through the bake and saw it advancing a bit more than you'd like you can always slide the screen in then to balance it out.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 17, 2019, 11:31:25 AM

 I loved all the sauce. I just realized I have been going too light all these years. I enjoyed it blended smooth.
I also liked the texture from some semolina used in the bench flour.

Looking good! I'm glad it worked out for you. Bottom looks nice too. Welcome to the sauce club, it's all about the sauce  :)

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 17, 2019, 02:40:53 PM

Nice melt!

I know it seems as if I'm trying to steer you away from screen use because I'm not a big fan of them but I really think that if you tried lowering your bake temp back to 500, used the same consistency of sauce and bake directly on the stone you would get the undercrust you want while still retaining that nice melt you've got going on. Even if you checked the bottom part way through the bake and saw it advancing a bit more than you'd like you can always slide the screen in then to balance it out.

Thanks. I am long overdue for a stone bake. But would that solve a very thin spot with a load of sauce on it? And how different is a launch to stone versus say 2 minutes on screen then 6 minutes on stone?

I really think I need more dough for how heavy I top it. Or I just need to stand behind and embrace some sogginess.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on March 17, 2019, 02:54:31 PM
The oven spring from the dough cooking directly from that conduction heat off the stone is hard to replicate, but I've not tried the thin Queens style mesh screens you're using. Any idea how long your pies take to start boiling? That's been a point of reference in my oven, which I think affects the sauce flavor a lot. Some of my pan pizza bakes take 5 minutes just to start boiling, if the bake is 10 minutes the sauce flavor is gonna be different than it cooking rigorously on a stone for a full 8 minutes.

I think the forum tends to use lower TF/dough weight than most pizzerias, as well as using less cheese and sauce than typical commercial environments. Keep in mind your pizza dough in theory would still be able to hold toppings too, that's a thought I've used to adjust my formulas as well. Harry used to mention NY slice places often being thicker than reported here.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on March 17, 2019, 08:57:59 PM
Harry knew his stuff.   
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on March 17, 2019, 11:32:29 PM
What is a typical NY street slice TF? Like .105 or .11?
I love the tapering thick to thin style. Thick at crust and gradually thinner towards center. Is that because of good stretching or because the sauce and cheese melt towards the centre of the pie?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on March 17, 2019, 11:52:50 PM
What is a typical NY street slice TF? Like .105 or .11?
I love the tapering thick to thin style. Thick at crust and gradually thinner towards center. Is that because of good stretching or because the sauce and cheese melt towards the centre of the pie?
That taper you speak of has been considered a flaw in opening a dough for a NY Pie.  The thickness should be the same until you get to the conicone.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on March 18, 2019, 07:58:35 AM
Nice pie Matt! That looks closer to what I致e eaten in queens, did you increase the mozz too?

Welcome to the sauce club, it's all about the sauce  :)
I think Harry used to say 鍍he sauce is boss!  :)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: PizzaJerk on March 18, 2019, 08:16:20 AM
Thanks. I am long overdue for a stone bake. But would that solve a very thin spot with a load of sauce on it? And how different is a launch to stone versus say 2 minutes on screen then 6 minutes on stone?

I really think I need more dough for how heavy I top it. Or I just need to stand behind and embrace some sogginess.

No, a think spot will not be remedied by baking it on stone. Since I've never used a screen at the start of a bake I cannot say what it will be like. I'm sure at 2 minutes on the screen and 6 on the stone it would stiffen it up a bit more but perhaps too much for what you're going for. I just suggest you try it since you've been pretty rock solid with what you've been doing lately.

Before you up the TF. I think a little more strength in the dough (longer initial mix perhaps) would help you avoid thin spots as well as taking a look at your balling technique, making sure to seal the bottom of the ball up nice. One of the ways I used to try to remedy a thin spot in a dough was to gently fold it over from the outer circle of the thin spot to the other edge of the spot ( sort of going from a full moon to a half moon) and press it to seal. If you do it gently and avoid the urge to stretch any more it may help those times when a thin spot shows up. It's not a perfecto method but worth a thought if it happens.

On a side note, I went to Amore yesterday since I was in the city to get some of the St. Joseph's pastry. Having not had a slice since I was a kid and then having it after having so many other pies and making so many in a commercial setting I can truly say that Queens does have a different style going on. Aside from the juice which I myself try to replicate, the structure is all it's own. As I picked up the slice to fold it I thought for sure it would flop but it didn't. It had a paper thin crisp and then a gummy softness. I understand what you're after and a direct stone bake may or may not get you what you want. Maybe try a side by side comparison of 2 pies next time around? You could always freeze the slices to reheat.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on March 19, 2019, 01:13:25 PM
That taper you speak of has been considered a flaw in o7pening a dough for a NY Pie.  The thickness should be the same until you get to the conicone.
Well that's a relief then because my pies lately have been getting less tapered.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 19, 2019, 05:53:29 PM
The oven spring from the dough cooking directly from that conduction heat off the stone is hard to replicate, but I've not tried the thin Queens style mesh screens you're using. Any idea how long your pies take to start boiling? That's been a point of reference in my oven, which I think affects the sauce flavor a lot. Some of my pan pizza bakes take 5 minutes just to start boiling, if the bake is 10 minutes the sauce flavor is gonna be different than it cooking rigorously on a stone for a full 8 minutes.

I think the forum tends to use lower TF/dough weight than most pizzerias, as well as using less cheese and sauce than typical commercial environments. Keep in mind your pizza dough in theory would still be able to hold toppings too, that's a thought I've used to adjust my formulas as well. Harry used to mention NY slice places often being thicker than reported here.

I'm not sure how long it takes for my sauce to start boiling because I usually spend the first few minutes of the bake doing some cleaning and prepping. (Then I do like to sit in front of the oven with the light on and watch the 2nd half of the bake.) I'll try to watch it more closely going forward...but we need to define what we mean by boiling. Rapid boil only, or does slow rumble count? Of course thinner sauce and less dough lead to quicker boiling too. So as I add more dough weight, it could have a negative effect.

I agree that it seems that many forum members (including myself) likely use less dough weight and less cheese than most pizzerias. I think NY being labeled "thin" is part of it. And that slices look thinner when looking at a slice from an 18-20" pie. But formula, fermentation, opening technique etc all impact the resulting thinness too.
 
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 19, 2019, 05:56:42 PM
What is a typical NY street slice TF? Like .105 or .11?


It's really hard say. It varies a lot, and in my previous post I noted that the thinness depends on many more factors outside of dough weight. I've weighted a few pizzeria dough balls, but not enough to make any scientific claim.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 19, 2019, 05:59:02 PM
Nice pie Matt! That looks closer to what I致e eaten in queens, did you increase the mozz too?


Thanks QD! I actually had a bit less mozz on this one, at *only* 8.5oz (for 14" pie). A bit more would've been fine too - there was plenty of sauce to handle it.


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 19, 2019, 06:02:53 PM

Before you up the TF. I think a little more strength in the dough (longer initial mix perhaps) would help you avoid thin spots as well as taking a look at your balling technique, making sure to seal the bottom of the ball up nice.


Thanks a lot for your thoughts on this. I may try to post a video of my dough coming off the mixer and my balling technique (not sure I really have a technique though, which may be my problem  8) )

I've had some good stretches, but not consistently. My last couple bakes the dough has opened so easily that I ended up with a full size pie on the board before ever lifting it.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 19, 2019, 06:15:03 PM

On a side note, I went to Amore yesterday since I was in the city to get some of the St. Joseph's pastry. Having not had a slice since I was a kid and then having it after having so many other pies and making so many in a commercial setting I can truly say that Queens does have a different style going on. Aside from the juice which I myself try to replicate, the structure is all it's own. As I picked up the slice to fold it I thought for sure it would flop but it didn't. It had a paper thin crisp and then a gummy softness. I understand what you're after and a direct stone bake may or may not get you what you want. Maybe try a side by side comparison of 2 pies next time around? You could always freeze the slices to reheat.


Awesome, glad you went to Amore. My hope is that my relatively high oil (4%) will help me keep some soft chew above a very thin crisp layer (and below a thin gum line). The 2 pizzerias I've spoken to say they bake entirely on the mesh. When I watched Margherita in Jamaica, they finished my pie directly on the stone, but only for about 15 seconds.

Was your slice a re-heat?

BTW, the pie you posted recently was absolutely stunning, and very inspiring. As was your comment: "Nothing like a juicy, sturdy pie". I can get juicy. I can get sturdy. And while I've achieved them both simultaneously, getting them consistently is the challenge I face now. I hope you don't mind that I've re-posted your pie below for me to reference in the future.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: PizzaJerk on March 19, 2019, 11:20:11 PM
Awesome, glad you went to Amore. My hope is that my relatively high oil (4%) will help me keep some soft chew above a very thin crisp layer (and below a thin gum line). The 2 pizzerias I've spoken to say they bake entirely on the mesh. When I watched Margherita in Jamaica, they finished my pie directly on the stone, but only for about 15 seconds.

Was your slice a re-heat?

BTW, the pie you posted recently was absolutely stunning, and very inspiring. As was your comment: "Nothing like a juicy, sturdy pie". I can get juicy. I can get sturdy. And while I've achieved them both simultaneously, getting them consistently is the challenge I face now. I hope you don't mind that I've re-posted your pie below for me to reference in the future.

Amore seemed like it was baked entirely on the mesh screen but I'm not certain as I didn't have a good angle of the oven interior. I also couldn't get a thermostat reading, it looked pretty worn. The place was hoppin' so the slices were fresh and hot which is why I was so surprised that even after putting it into a box and eating it in the car that it retained such a thin layer of crisp. I did detect a sort of biscuit like flavor profile in the crust, if I'm describing my thoughts correctly. Perhaps some lard is in play there. It was familiar to some tests I have done in the past. Could be a fairly high amount also. Not saying 10% but maybe even 6-8%? You could always inch up there week by week or just make 2 dough batches of differing oil percentages. Also, make sure you temper the dough before the bake (in case you're not doing so already) but not too much so you still retain the gumline and tight crumb you want.

About my pie. I don't mind at all. I'm flattered by the gracious compliment! As we all strive for consistency, I've found that making mental notes or physical notes of the positives and what it took to get there has been very helpful. Also taking care not to make too many changes at once.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on March 21, 2019, 05:57:43 PM
I'm not sure if you have mentioned it earlier in thread but, if you were to make a 16 inch pie, what would your total weight of cheese and total weight of sauce be? You get such consistently good bakes and ratios on your pies.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 21, 2019, 09:28:57 PM
I'm not sure if you have mentioned it earlier in thread but, if you were to make a 16 inch pie, what would your total weight of cheese and total weight of sauce be? You get such consistently good bakes and ratios on your pies.

Thanks. Try 12.5oz mozz. I've never weighed my sauce, but would do just a bit more than 1 cup of thin sauce.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on March 21, 2019, 11:29:10 PM
Thanks. Try 12.5oz mozz. I've never weighed my sauce, but would do just a bit more than 1 cup of thin sauce.
For a 16 inch pie I never exceeded 8oz including a tablespoon of Parm and Romano.   But interestingly recently there was a post here that Norma posted a video a a Gentleman named Frank.   I was taking aback to see how carefully spread the cheese and how the little amount he was using. 
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on March 22, 2019, 12:13:01 PM
For a 16 inch pie I never exceeded 8oz including a tablespoon of Parm and Romano.   But interestingly recently there was a post here that Norma posted a video a a Gentleman named Frank.   I was taking aback to see how carefully spread the cheese and how the little amount he was using.
Frank seems like an awesome guy. I think those pies in the videos  he is making boardwalk style pies.  I want to try a boardwalk cheese first pie with a spiral tomato pattern in the near future. Just like Normas.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on March 22, 2019, 10:12:00 PM
Think I might jump on one of these 16" x 16" California Pizza Stones like you went with Matt. Had a deck baked pie this evening from my favorite shop one town over and there really just is no comparison for that stone baked pie.

Kinda curious of a steel though as I could get one the same size for similar price. Always really liked Craig's NY bakes on steel.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: PizzAmateur on March 22, 2019, 10:20:12 PM
Think I might jump on one of these 16" x 16" California Pizza Stones like you went with Matt. Had a deck baked pie this evening from my favorite shop one town over and there really just is no comparison for that stone baked pie.

Kinda curious of a steel though as I could get one the same size for similar price. Always really liked Craig's NY bakes on steel.

I don't know what kind of oven you have, but I only have a "standard" home oven that *can* reach 550ーF.  I have a stone, but from reading on this forum, I may invest in a steel.

Seems like you can actually get results close to Neapolitan pies with a steel in an oven such as mine, but never even close with a stone.

Of course, I could be wrong... would not be the first time! (chuckle)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on March 22, 2019, 11:08:40 PM
I don't know what kind of oven you have, but I only have a "standard" home oven that *can* reach 550ーF.  I have a stone, but from reading on this forum, I may invest in a steel.

Seems like you can actually get results close to Neapolitan pies with a steel in an oven such as mine, but never even close with a stone.

Of course, I could be wrong... would not be the first time! (chuckle)

Stone or steel you'll be fine for NY. For neo in a home oven setting half inch steel is prob the choice I am guessing. I like NY style and I have a steel because it ended up being cheaper for me than buying a stone that can accommodate 18" pies.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on March 22, 2019, 11:13:18 PM
Think I might jump on one of these 16" x 16" California Pizza Stones like you went with Matt. Had a deck baked pie this evening from my favorite shop one town over and there really just is no comparison for that stone baked pie.

Kinda curious of a steel though as I could get one the same size for similar price. Always really liked Craig's NY bakes on steel.
You seem to love pizza enough to get both. If I could get a 18 inch California stone or similar for a decent price I would add it to my arsenal. The steel has been good to me so far. most of the hiccup I have been having are user errors. If you like grilling, the steel has the added bonus of being used as a griddle on your bbq.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: PizzAmateur on March 22, 2019, 11:15:53 PM
Stone or steel you'll be fine for NY. For neo in a home oven setting half inch steel is prob the choice I am guessing. I like NY style and I have a steel because it ended up being cheaper for me than buying a stone that can accommodate 18" pies.

Understood.  I have to find some money.  Still trying to recover from the flu and being cleaned out by burglars (who live next door... really...).  heavy sigh
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 24, 2019, 08:25:42 PM
Loved this pie  :chef:

My hard cheese was half parm, half romano. The romano was huge. Super saucy too. Added some extra spoonfuls. 9oz mozz.

More stone time, 7:30 bake with 4:15 on mesh screen and 3:15 on stone. Bottom had an improved golden color. (Stone 510-520, oven set to 535.)
Edit: Ryan, I still didn't watch the entire bake, but when I checked at 3:45 it had a pretty decent boil (was still on the mesh at that point)..

Was a little heavy on the basil.

Dough weight up slightly to 409 grams, overstretched a little, still an inconsistent stretch, but was a bit better. I liked opening the dough cool. This was actually a same day RT ferment at 69 degrees (about 8 hours with 0.125 IDY thanks to Craig's chart) and I put it in the fridge for about 30 mins before opening.

Pics better this week, re-did the white balance with the pie sitting on the table. A good amount of daylight was coming in too.

Next time:
Same half romano/parm
Heavy stone time again
Try cooling on a screen for 30 seconds before moving to the metal serving tray

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on March 24, 2019, 10:38:35 PM
Awesome Period End of Message
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on March 25, 2019, 12:26:32 PM
Outstanding Matt, that's one of the finest pies I've seen from you, love that herb-y sauce and that perfect undercrust!
Thanks for checking that sauce boil, would be interesting to do an experiment versus a directly launched pie. I'm probably gonna opt in on a 16" CPS to really scratch this itch, had another pie from my favorite local joint and that stone baked crust just tastes so different than any of my workarounds to make big pies. This recent pie I had last week reminded me of a post you made where char from the crust was a notable flavor, it really rounds out the flavor profile, almost adding a sort of BBQ vibe to the meal.

Any thoughts on the RT dough versus your normal?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Whisky on March 25, 2019, 03:28:10 PM
It's crazy how different (better) his crusts looks then mine. Same dough formula. Mine were cooked 100% on a 5/8" CPS at ~510F. Maybe I need to try the 1" thick 16x16. I wonder if bench flour makes a big difference since is cooking on a screen part way..My TF is likely thicker then his too..

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 25, 2019, 06:03:19 PM
Outstanding Matt, that's one of the finest pies I've seen from you, love that herb-y sauce and that perfect undercrust!
Thanks for checking that sauce boil, would be interesting to do an experiment versus a directly launched pie. I'm probably gonna opt in on a 16" CPS to really scratch this itch, had another pie from my favorite local joint and that stone baked crust just tastes so different than any of my workarounds to make big pies. This recent pie I had last week reminded me of a post you made where char from the crust was a notable flavor, it really rounds out the flavor profile, almost adding a sort of BBQ vibe to the meal.

Any thoughts on the RT dough versus your normal?

Thanks alot Ryan. Good luck with the stone (or steel), look forward to seeing more of your experiments.

I still didn't have that char flavor,  though I'm not sure that I want it. I'm thinking bench flour instead of oil would contribute maybe.

Regarding RT vs CF, it was actually very similar in how it handled and felt etc. Maybe a bit less flavorful crust,  but that's hard to judge, especially for me.

I am very tempted to try a direct launch. I didn't want to with the RT dough because I had a very sticky experience with RT dough before.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 25, 2019, 06:06:02 PM
It's crazy how different (better) his crusts looks then mine. Same dough formula. Mine were cooked 100% on a 5/8" CPS at ~510F. Maybe I need to try the 1" thick 16x16. I wonder if bench flour makes a big difference since is cooking on a screen part way..My TF is likely thicker then his too..

Your undercrust looks pretty good to me. Maybe some thin spots in the second photo. I didn't totally understand your post, can you clarify:
If you used bench flour and/or oil
Screen used
Bake time

I think opening in oil produces a bit of frying for me. Opening in flour will be different,  though I wouldn't say one is better than the other.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Whisky on March 25, 2019, 07:45:15 PM
Those are two different pizzas in the pics. Only difference is the first one was AT HG bromated, and the second one unbromated.

I did not time the first pizza but the second one was 11-12 minutes on a 500F preheated stone for 2 hours or so.

I use flour to open dough, and then a mixture of flour and semolina on the peel. I dont use screens ,(just to cool pizza).

I will look into opening with oil. I have never seen that done.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on March 25, 2019, 08:49:30 PM
Those are two different pizzas in the pics. Only difference is the first one was AT HG bromated, and the second one unbromated.

I did not time the first pizza but the second one was 11-12 minutes on a 500F preheated stone for 2 hours or so.

I use flour to open dough, and then a mixture of flour and semolina on the peel. I dont use screens ,(just to cool pizza).

I will look into opening with oil. I have never seen that done.

Thanks!

Normas YouTube channel has a few videos of Frank opening her dough balls with oil. I am going to try it on next bake.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: PizzAmateur on March 25, 2019, 09:07:17 PM
Normas YouTube channel has a few videos of Frank opening her dough balls with oil. I am going to try it on next bake.

Do you have a link to Norma's Youtube channel?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 25, 2019, 09:09:10 PM
While I had been posting my experiments across the forum for quite a while, I just noticed that today is my one year anniversary of starting this thread! Thanks to everyone for participating along with me and for all your advice. You've helped my pies get better and better  :chef:

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 25, 2019, 09:22:21 PM
Do you have a link to Norma's Youtube channel?

Thanks!

https://youtu.be/4J5Pvz4XkYk

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: PizzAmateur on March 25, 2019, 09:23:09 PM
https://youtu.be/4J5Pvz4XkYk

Thanks!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: rtt121 on March 26, 2019, 08:44:07 AM
You seem to love pizza enough to get both. If I could get a 18 inch California stone or similar for a decent price I would add it to my arsenal. The steel has been good to me so far. most of the hiccup I have been having are user errors. If you like grilling, the steel has the added bonus of being used as a griddle on your bbq.
FYI the code PIZZA25 is still working for 25% off at CPS. They were even kind enough to let me send them a shipping label to use instead of paying for shipping through their site. (deep discount through my shipping account)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Whisky on March 26, 2019, 09:38:15 AM
FYI the code PIZZA25 is still working for 25% off at CPS. They were even kind enough to let me send them a shipping label to use instead of paying for shipping through their site. (deep discount through my shipping account)

Odd..I just tried the code and is invalid for me.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: rtt121 on March 26, 2019, 09:39:48 AM
That is odd. I just used it Thursday. They may have saw my order and decided to cut that off?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on March 26, 2019, 02:46:55 PM

Regarding RT vs CF, it was actually very similar in how it handled and felt etc. Maybe a bit less flavorful crust,  but that's hard to judge, especially for me.

I am very tempted to try a direct launch. I didn't want to with the RT dough because I had a very sticky experience with RT dough before.

matt, last couple of bakes I've been placing my rt temp dough in the fridge for 30-45 mins before opening, it makes a world of difference, much easier to open and launch.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 26, 2019, 08:55:58 PM
matt, last couple of bakes I've been placing my rt temp dough in the fridge for 30-45 mins before opening, it makes a world of difference, much easier to open and launch.

Thanks QD. I did that (remembering your thread and thinking about the optimal opening temp) and it worked beautifully.  No more fear of emergency doughs :)

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: PizzaJerk on March 27, 2019, 07:19:13 PM
Very solid pie!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 30, 2019, 07:11:10 PM
Here's my dough after 48 hours in my (now fixed) kitchen fridge. Fridge set to 36*, center of dough reads 37.8*. I used 0.375 IDY (not reading my notes that last time it wasn't enough).

In any event, I was pushing the bake to tomorrow night anyway. But I'll put the dough out at room temp for a few hours in the morning to get it moving.

Next time I plan a 2-day I'll do 0.5% IDY (assuming I remember).

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: PizzaJerk on March 30, 2019, 11:26:32 PM
Here's my dough after 48 hours in my (now fixed) kitchen fridge. Fridge set to 36*, center of dough reads 37.8*. I used 0.375 IDY (not reading my notes that last time it wasn't enough).

In any event, I was pushing the bake to tomorrow night anyway. But I'll put the dough out at room temp for a few hours in the morning to get it moving.

Next time I plan a 2-day I'll do 0.5% IDY (assuming I remember).

I did the same thing with my dough this week. My shop is small (350sqft) and open kitchen so if I don't have my Zen moment when making my dough before things start going on around me I sometime lose focus. I ended up using half the yeast I normally use and was worried they wouldn't wake up from their slumber before anyone wanted to order a pie on pizza day.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on March 31, 2019, 08:33:09 PM
Tried to duplicate last bake. The flavors were there, but it was thrown a bit off by a poor stretch. The center was too thin and the cheese and sauce slid down and softened the center of the crust.

My last several bakes, I stretched the dough almost to full size while on the table. But when transferring to the screen it led to overstretch. This time I only did a bit of stretching on the table, mostly edge stretch. Then did a significant knuckle stretch. I must have been to slow on the knuckle stretch as the center was thin. It was almost a consistent taper around the pie.

Flavors worked well again, 50/50 parm/romano, a good dose of fresh basil. And a lot of sauce.

7:30 bake with 4:15 on screen and 3:15 on the stone (around 525 degrees with the oven set to 535).

The dough was more fermented and I liked the result. It was a 3-day CF with 0.375 IDY, but it ended up spending a lot of the last day at room temp.

Next time:
Increase the IDY to allow it to CF
Everything else the same, but figure out how to stretch it evenly


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on April 01, 2019, 02:38:48 PM
wow, love the way the basil comes through the melt!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on April 01, 2019, 04:27:35 PM
You got the NY Flop   Excellent Dude!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on April 01, 2019, 08:27:53 PM
You got the NY Flop   Excellent Dude!

Thanks. But the flop exemplified what was wrong with this pie. It was caused by the bad stretch and the sauce and cheese sliding to the center.

It was interesting, though, the area towards the rim that was extra thick and lightly topped tasted very much like many pizzeria pies I've had. It's not what I'm going for, but cool to know I can do that style if I wanted to.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: PizzaJerk on April 01, 2019, 09:34:34 PM
When you stretch, do you avoid the center of the dough? I ask that because if you make it a point to avoid touching the middle section of the dough before it hits the knuckles it should help limit the occurrence of thin spots in that area when tossing it (not up in the air). It's possible that the extra fermentation in the dough contributed to it also.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on April 01, 2019, 09:53:57 PM
When you stretch, do you avoid the center of the dough? I ask that because if you make it a point to avoid touching the middle section of the dough before it hits the knuckles it should help limit the occurrence of thin spots in that area when tossing it (not up in the air). It's possible that the extra fermentation in the dough contributed to it also.

Well, I wouldn't say I completely avoid the middle. I do fingertip press it. But I do much more around the outside. Maybe I should do less in the middle. I was always concerned about getting bubbles, but that seems to have been caused by under-fermentation.

I've been wondering if the more fermented dough opens more easily. I'm so used to the under-fermented dough that I'll need to really learn some opening technique.

Then again, maybe cooler dough would make it easier. I want to increase the IDY so that I can keep it in the fridge until almost bake time.

Worst case I can stretch it entirely on the table without any knuckle stretch, but that seems like taking the easy way out.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: PizzaJerk on April 01, 2019, 10:28:24 PM
Well, I wouldn't say I completely avoid the middle. I do fingertip press it. But I do much more around the outside. Maybe I should do less in the middle. I was always concerned about getting bubbles, but that seems to have been caused by under-fermentation.

I've been wondering if the more fermented dough opens more easily. I'm so used to the under-fermented dough that I'll need to really learn some opening technique.

Then again, maybe cooler dough would make it easier. I want to increase the IDY so that I can keep it in the fridge until almost bake time.

Worst case I can stretch it entirely on the table without any knuckle stretch, but that seems like taking the easy way out.

I would say that your technique is normal and correct. If I can manage the time to successfully shoot a video of what I'm talking about I will do so tomorrow. It's tough to describe in text. I have some old dough from last week, some of which is quite fermented by now.

Fermented dough will open easier because of the gluten breaking down. That doesn't mean a dough can't be nicely fermented and still be strong, however. In my opinion, that is where the success lies. A nicely developed dough in both strength and maturation, but not too much of either. The ever changing variables of the pizza craft are what make this a challenge for us all, even the most experienced from time to time.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Pazzo on April 01, 2019, 10:40:50 PM
You got the NY Flop   Excellent Dude!

Most people think the flop is a good thing because they've seen the Barstool Sports pizza and it happens to about 90% of the slices Dave eats. But El Pres isn't a big fan of the flop and he talks about it quite a few times. His latest review, Village Square, he states that the lack of flop is a good thing.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on April 01, 2019, 11:22:58 PM
Thanks. But the flop exemplified what was wrong with this pie. It was caused by the bad stretch and the sauce and cheese sliding to the center.

It was interesting, though, the area towards the rim that was extra thick and lightly topped tasted very much like many pizzeria pies I've had. It's not what I'm going for, but cool to know I can do that style if I wanted to.
I might say before you make dough decisions you reduce the cheese and maybe the sauce.   then no flop maybe an angle.  But that is all a minor angle.    Then basically you have a NY Pie .
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on April 02, 2019, 12:38:23 PM
matt, when I baked pizza with my brother in fl, the last dough ball was overfermented and when it came time for knuckle stretching, he lowered the skin so most of it was on the counter. this resulted in a much more gradual, gentle stretch since the majority of weight was resting on the bench.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on April 02, 2019, 05:39:03 PM
Most people think the flop is a good thing because they've seen the Barstool Sports pizza and it happens to about 90% of the slices Dave eats. But El Pres isn't a big fan of the flop and he talks about it quite a few times. His latest review, Village Square, he states that the lack of flop is a good thing.
Question.  If 90 percent reviewed have flop then that is proof that is New York.  Since he went to some very famous places.  A nice flop is good and New Yorkers don't need a guy from Boston to tell us one way or the other.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Pazzo on April 02, 2019, 06:16:05 PM
Question.  If 90 percent reviewed have flop then that is proof that is New York.  Since he went to some very famous places.  A nice flop is good and New Yorkers don't need a guy from Boston to tell us one way or the other.

When a NY slice has too much flop, a lot of times it's due to a minor "flaw" somewhere in the process, especially when it's a reheat. Listen to Frank Pinello talk about how having no flop is a good thing and he loves a slice with great structure. Not telling you how to enjoy your pizza, just stating a common characteristic that I personally believe people are misinformed on due to Barstool.

Matt, sorry for diverting any energy away from those amazing NY style pizzas you're turning out. We'll continue the discussion about "NY flop" in another thread if Fiorot wants to.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Pazzo on April 02, 2019, 06:17:18 PM
A nice flop is good and New Yorkers don't need a guy from Boston to tell us one way or the other.

Totally agree, I don't think anybody needs anyone to tell them how to like pizza.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on April 02, 2019, 08:31:20 PM
... I don't think anybody needs anyone to tell them how to like pizza.

Agree.  If you want flop go for it.

But I also agree that the Barstool videos (which I'm a big fan of) did cause confusion. When he started the videos he liked flop, but over time saw it as a negative. In some of the more recent videos he'll say "good no-flop".

In any event, I find the videos entertaining, but not very informative. Just a guy and his opinion based on his personal preferences. But I wouldn't go so far as saying a guy from Boston shouldn't comment on NY pizza. He's likely eaten at more NY pizzerias than the rest of us combined...and no way do 90% of his reviews have flop.

My pie was certainly flawed in my mind. Too much cheese and sauce in the center and not enough around the edge. This was a result of the tapered stretch. The flop was a result of all of this, and a good visual.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: PizzaJerk on April 02, 2019, 09:15:10 PM
Matt, I took a video for you to describe what I was talking about with you a few post back. I'm not implying that you don't already open your dough properly, just offering a helping hand in case I can :)

https://youtu.be/zA_5t-hjx94
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: PizzaJerk on April 02, 2019, 10:09:52 PM
It just dawned on me that perhaps the video I posted may derail your thread. If at any time you wish for me to remove it, I certainly will do so.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on April 02, 2019, 10:19:56 PM
Agree.  If you want flop go for it.

 But I wouldn't go so far as saying a guy from Boston shouldn't comment on NY pizza. He's likely eaten at more NY pizzerias than the rest of us combined...and no way do 90% of his reviews have flop.

  LOL  that was said in Jest.  After all ,to your point,  has any New Yorker we know had pizza from all those joints.  The troubling part of all this the invasion of Boston telling us what is great in NY and not.     >:D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on April 03, 2019, 12:25:00 AM

My pie was certainly flawed in my mind. Too much cheese and sauce in the center and not enough around the edge.

Hey, hey, hey, hey.  Don't toss it,  I'll eat it!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on April 03, 2019, 05:42:05 PM
  LOL  that was said in Jest.  After all ,to your point,  has any New Yorker we know had pizza from all those joints.  The troubling part of all this the invasion of Boston telling us what is great in NY and not.     >:D

Yeah. And the worst part is I can't even make fun of their sports teams anymore. I held the 86 world series over a friend of mine for many years.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on April 03, 2019, 05:56:25 PM
Matt, I took a video for you to describe what I was talking about with you a few post back. I'm not implying that you don't already open your dough properly, just offering a helping hand in case I can :)

https://youtu.be/zA_5t-hjx94

Thanks very much for taking the time to post this Anthony! Very much appreciated.

I need to dedicate some time to watch it again and gather my thoughts.

But at first glance, I do more fingertip press,  and am not so gentle. I want a tight crumb and after watching videos of Frank G I started really beating up the dough. Maybe I should tone it down.

I also think you mentioned the dough being cold. I want to try a cooler dough (and should make more use of my thermometer. )

Maybe I'll try to post up a video of my process. It wont be pretty!

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on April 04, 2019, 09:03:36 PM
Alright guys, here's a video of me balling a doughball. As I said once before, I don't really have 'technique', so let me have it! This was actually pretty bad, even by my standards, as I was way off in my effort to reduce a 500 gram ball to 409 grams. But I'm glad that happened on video as you'll get to see it.

See anything that looks like it will lead to thin spots or other issues? (All those little pieces make me nervous. Usually it none or one of those.)

This dough came off the mixer and sat for 10 minutes before the video.
100% All Trumps (no bleach or bromate), 58% water, 4% oil, 1.75% salt, 0.8% sugar, 0.5% IDY

https://youtu.be/UOx-F6qyAU4

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on April 05, 2019, 04:18:43 PM
My reaction is that is one stiff dough.  At 60% and same amount of oil I have to have my hands oily to have it not stick to my fingers.  Is it possible 2 percent can make such a difference?   
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on April 05, 2019, 09:25:50 PM
My reaction is that is one stiff dough.  At 60% and same amount of oil I have to have my hands oily to have it not stick to my fingers.  Is it possible 2 percent can make such a difference?   

Over time I've been slowly increasing my mix time. A couple minutes less and it'd be sticky.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: PizzaJerk on April 06, 2019, 03:36:26 PM
I don't really see anything terribly wrong with your balling. One thing I would suggest is to maybe allow the dough to rest an hour before balling. It allows the gluten to relax, making the process easier all around. You may also find that the ball is more cohesive after a longer rest prior to balling.

There are quite a few ways to ball dough. The next time I make a batch this week I will try to shoot another video of some of the different ways I have been forming balls. I had to start testing out alternative methods when I worked my old job because one of the guys working there would mix a bromated hi-gluten flour to full development and it was a bear to ball and make pies with. I ended up with tendonitis. As they say, there are several ways to skin a cat.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on April 06, 2019, 06:02:34 PM
Bench scraper to divide the dough...
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on April 06, 2019, 08:30:07 PM
 :chef:

Opened the dough at 52 degrees, felt pretty good

7:45 bake with 3:15 on mesh and 4:30 on stone
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on April 06, 2019, 09:53:52 PM
Another beauty Matt! I let my dough rest for 20 minutes before balling which seems to help gluten dev. After I scale the dough I do 3 s&folds, there痴 a video in my thread of chau痴 Method.

Anyhow, doesn稚 look like you need to change anything!  :chef:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: PizzaJerk on April 07, 2019, 08:47:42 AM
Golden brown and delicious! That bottom has some nice color, I bet it adds a nice flavor to the whole profile. I think Amore can learn a thing or two from you.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: PizzaJerk on April 10, 2019, 09:38:29 PM
I shot another video today as I was balling dough. It shows a few different ways that I have been utilizing. The first method is the most common in the industry and is the one which causes me issues if I over do it. The others are methods that I have been utilizing most recently. Each ball also shows how I seal the bottom. Hopefully I slowed down enough for it to give a good idea of the motions. I don't include any narrative in the video to explain because it was rather loud in the shop as you'll notice at the end.  Dish washing is not a pleasant sound.

https://youtu.be/pIBG-xABBm0
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on April 10, 2019, 11:13:57 PM
Golden brown and delicious! That bottom has some nice color, I bet it adds a nice flavor to the whole profile. I think Amore can learn a thing or two from you.
I think so too.   AO  OH   said imitating Italian American Accent.   
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: vtsteve on April 11, 2019, 01:15:28 AM
I ball like PJ's method #1, but with the seal formed at the heels of my hands, so I can lace my fingers and really give it a squeeze w/o too much strain. I usually do 5 folds; it'll start to tear on the surface at around 7 folds. Then a quick round on the bench.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on April 21, 2019, 08:25:35 PM
Well this was a pleasant surprise, I had zero expectation of anything interesting happening tonight, was just trying to get through dinner...My wife insists on keeping our kitchen Kosher for Passover once a year for a week. This not only means I cant make dough, but I also cant use any of my usual sauce or cheese ingredients.

But this (matzo pizza) pie was very tasty! I'm not clear on how much of it was from the sauce versus the cheese, but probably a bit of both.

First, the Cheese was:
50% "Pizza Cheese", which I suspect is mozzarella
50% "Italian Pizza Cheese", which is a blend of mozzarella, muenster, and parm (unknown ratio)

The cheese had nice flavor. A salty bite, which is surprising given that it had pretty typical amounts of sodium (180/190 mg per serving) and my sauce and 'crust' had zero salt.


More interesting was the Sauce. The base was "Puree", which was already re-diluted paste and citric acid.
To the puree I added generous amounts of:
- "Lieber's Pizza Spice"
- Oregano (regular dried)
- Garlic Powder
- Black pepper (not too much)

** Note no sugar, salt, or oil added to the sauce!

Lieber's Pizza Spice Ingredients:
- Oregano
- Basil
- Marjoram
- Garlic
- Thyme
- Crushed Red Pepper
- Savory...(what is that??)

So what gives? The pie was definitely garlicky, but I really think the regular old oregano and the additional seasonings in the Spice mix made a difference. I was actually planning on trying regular oregano anyway, but now I think I'll have to give this spice mix a shot. Will go re-read November's sauce - some of the ingredients I think are in his sauce, linked below.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3735.msg32136#msg32136

To do for my next (actual) NY pie sauce:
Usual tomato
Usual sugar
Usual salt
No oil
No added garlic
No fresh basil
Some amounts of Lieber's Pizza Spice, regular oregano, black pepper
Romano, but no Parm
(No muenster, but will file that away)


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on April 21, 2019, 10:19:57 PM
Sometimes you gotta do what you have to do.   N ice
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on April 22, 2019, 01:01:00 AM
Genius!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: John_H on April 23, 2019, 07:51:40 PM
Well this was a pleasant surprise, I had zero expectation of anything interesting happening tonight, was just trying to get through dinner...My wife insists on keeping our kitchen Kosher for Passover once a year for a week. This not only means I cant make dough, but I also cant use any of my usual sauce or cheese ingredients.

But this (matzo pizza) pie was very tasty! I'm not clear on how much of it was from the sauce versus the cheese, but probably a bit of both.

I wouldn't "pass over" one of those matzo pizzas.  ;)  Sorry couldn't resist.  I've made quite a few of them myself and could go for one right now actually.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on April 26, 2019, 08:22:00 PM
Thought about your thread while we were eating and asked my wife for a paper plate  :D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on April 26, 2019, 08:45:27 PM
Thought about your thread while we were eating and asked my wife for a paper plate  :D

Boom! That's what I like to see  :)

I think it was Pizza Shark that filled me in on the paper plates. The cheap uncoated ones will absorb grease, preventing it from running under the crust and removing the crisp.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on April 26, 2019, 10:29:04 PM
Boom! That's what I like to see  :)

I think it was Pizza Shark that filled me in on the paper plates. The cheap uncoated ones will absorb grease, preventing it from running under the crust and removing the crisp.
Pizza Shark the Man Who knows how to make NY.   I thank him every pie I make.   ( read his posts in alternative NY doughs )
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on April 28, 2019, 08:33:40 PM
Well the "Lieber's Pizza Spice" mix worked well. Good pie. Next time I'll reduce the spice mix a bit, and add some other seasoning.

14.25" pie, inconsistently stretched (as usual) with half the pie extra thin and half extra thick. (410 grams for intended TF of 0.09375.)

Lots of sauce, 9oz mozz. Mozz was stretchy.

520 stone, 535 oven setting, 3:30 on mesh + 4:10 on stone = 7:40 total bake time.

Sauce had 3/4 tsp spice mix. No additional garlic, oregano, basil or oil.
3 tsp romano, no parm.


Next time:
Reduce spice mix to 1/2 tsp (not heaping) and add 1/4 tsp regular oregano and a bit of fresh basil.
I'm also tempted to try less sugar (have been using 1 tsp per 1.25 cups sauce).
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on April 29, 2019, 12:05:09 AM
I cannot understand.  In a home oven you need a Screen?  I have tried it but the bottom never cooked and that was on a 1 inch thick CA Pizza Stone and another stone on the rack above heated for 2 hours
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on April 29, 2019, 06:03:16 AM
I cannot understand.  In a home oven you need a Screen?  I have tried it but the bottom never cooked and that was on a 1 inch thick CA Pizza Stone and another stone on the rack above heated for 2 hours


Screens can create a killer toasty/leathery crust.  These aren't Al diamond pattern screens.  They're woven 318 stainless.   I worked for a solid dosage pharma company mid 80's to early 2000's.  The scraps from pm's on the separators would have made countless pizza screens.  If I knew then...  Don't get me started on the stills that got tossed when the ion exchange/RO system was installed...

http://www.sweco.com/
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on April 29, 2019, 11:43:58 AM

Screens can create a killer toasty/leathery crust.  These aren't Al diamond pattern screens.  They're woven 318 stainless.   I worked for a solid dosage pharma company mid 80's to early 2000's.  The scraps from pm's on the separators would have made countless pizza screens.  If I knew then...  Don't get me started on the stills that got tossed when the ion exchange/RO system was installed...

http://www.sweco.com/
Upon further look at the picture I get it.  I never knew these are the screens people talk about.  I thought it was the Al type.  Where can you get stainless steel screening?   I would love to try it
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: PizzaJerk on April 29, 2019, 11:45:06 PM
I thought you and some others might appreciate this, I know I did. Listen to that crunch!
https://youtu.be/VNCoGtY1f8I?t=56s
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on April 30, 2019, 01:21:33 AM
 ;D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on May 12, 2019, 01:59:33 PM
when you blend up your sauce do you use a basic food blender or do you mill it? I tried running my chunky 6 in 1 through my processor and it didn't really do much.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on May 12, 2019, 05:34:07 PM
when you blend up your sauce do you use a basic food blender or do you mill it? I tried running my chunky 6 in 1 through my processor and it didn't really do much.

Agreed, crushed tomato (like 7/11 or 6in1) doesnt break down in a blender. To get a smooth sauce using crushed tomato, I pushed it through a strainer. It worked really well.

Most recently I've been using whole peeled tomato, which I stick blend then strain.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on May 13, 2019, 01:14:05 AM
Agreed, crushed tomato (like 7/11 or 6in1) doesnt break down in a blender. To get a smooth sauce using crushed tomato, I pushed it through a strainer. It worked really well.

Most recently I've been using whole peeled tomato, which I stick blend then strain.

That seems like a smart inexpensive way to do it for crushed. I was thinking about buying a food mill or a stick blender but will give my strainer a try.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on May 13, 2019, 11:14:43 AM
I think you will find with strained sauce the taste is far improved if the skins and seeds are removed.   Not blended at all.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on May 16, 2019, 09:37:50 AM
I've been hesitant to use a blender/stick on tomatoes, tom wrote something somewhere about how it breaks down micro-sacs in the tomatoes. well, now that I'm thinking about it, pushing through a strainer probably does the same thing. Let me see if I can track down tom's thread...

edit: here's a quote from tom:

"I use mine for a lot of chores around the kitchen even making myself an iced mixed drink occasionally but the one thing that I do not use it for in pureeing tomatoes unless I'm making tomato soup. It beats the tomatoes up too bad and ruptures many of the juice sacks contained in the tomato resulting is excessive syneresis of the sauce which ultimately leads to a "swamp" pizza."
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on May 16, 2019, 11:51:24 AM
Even though I am am strong proponent of straining seeds and small skins I don't buy the above quote one bit.  Does anyone think the very same thing happens when the tomatoes are crushed for a can.  Ya think the juice sacks don't get crushed   :-D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on May 16, 2019, 02:45:50 PM
I think what Tom is saying is that when you use a blender it creates a more watery result like when you put thick greek yogurt in a blender for a bit and it becomes a watery milk. Which might be what some people are looking for, not necessarily a bad thing. Also, judging from Toms preference for tomato sauce on his pizzas that I have seen, I am not surprised he doesn't like to use a blender for pizza sauce. I say it's worth a shot and see what you like, everyone's their own preference... especially to sauce.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on May 16, 2019, 04:43:57 PM
I find it hard to believe,and I have used a blender too, grinding up seeds and skins in a blender is not going to make anything more watery if anything the opposite.  After I strain a number 10 can of crushed or whole tomatoes of all seeds and skins I can put that strained tomatoes in a blender and nothing is going to happen to it.  Certainly water is not suddenly going to appear.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hotsawce on May 16, 2019, 05:34:20 PM
Where can these mesh screens be purchased? I'm still not sold on them for NY style, but I would try them out of curiosity.

Re: Overprocessing tomatoes, Ive found if you overprocess whole peeled tomatoes they will get very thin. I see this with the alta cucina. If I pulse properly, they have nice body. Overdo it, and it gets very very thin. I don't know why.

Well the "Lieber's Pizza Spice" mix worked well. Good pie. Next time I'll reduce the spice mix a bit, and add some other seasoning.

14.25" pie, inconsistently stretched (as usual) with half the pie extra thin and half extra thick. (410 grams for intended TF of 0.09375.)

Lots of sauce, 9oz mozz. Mozz was stretchy.

520 stone, 535 oven setting, 3:30 on mesh + 4:10 on stone = 7:40 total bake time.

Sauce had 3/4 tsp spice mix. No additional garlic, oregano, basil or oil.
3 tsp romano, no parm.


Next time:
Reduce spice mix to 1/2 tsp (not heaping) and add 1/4 tsp regular oregano and a bit of fresh basil.
I'm also tempted to try less sugar (have been using 1 tsp per 1.25 cups sauce).
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hotsawce on May 16, 2019, 05:40:20 PM
I've always used the first method (not as many folds) with a quick roll on the table to round it.

What hydration is this dough? It looks very silky smooth.

I shot another video today as I was balling dough. It shows a few different ways that I have been utilizing. The first method is the most common in the industry and is the one which causes me issues if I over do it. The others are methods that I have been utilizing most recently. Each ball also shows how I seal the bottom. Hopefully I slowed down enough for it to give a good idea of the motions. I don't include any narrative in the video to explain because it was rather loud in the shop as you'll notice at the end.  Dish washing is not a pleasant sound.

https://youtu.be/pIBG-xABBm0
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on May 16, 2019, 09:50:44 PM
Matt, I dont know if you have mentioned it but how cold is your fridge? What is your dough temp before putting it in fridge? You usually do a 2 day CF, correct? I am going to try making your dough formula tomorrow for some variety on sunday.

Edit: I see now, you use .37% idy for 24 hours and you said you wanted to do .5% for a 2 day CF. You also mentioned fridge temp to be about 36.
Since I want to do a 2 day CF I went and did .48 % IDY.
 I didn't know that for a longer CF you need more yeast. Interesting and I will experiment with that in future, myself. do you also need to bump up the sugar too or is that more for flavor and or browning?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: PizzaJerk on May 16, 2019, 10:36:08 PM
I've always used the first method (not as many folds) with a quick roll on the table to round it.

What hydration is this dough? It looks very silky smooth.

That particular batch was 62.5% with 2.5% oil.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on May 18, 2019, 10:02:03 PM
Matt, I dont know if you have mentioned it but how cold is your fridge? What is your dough temp before putting it in fridge? You usually do a 2 day CF, correct? I am going to try making your dough formula tomorrow for some variety on sunday.

Edit: I see now, you use .37% idy for 24 hours and you said you wanted to do .5% for a 2 day CF. You also mentioned fridge temp to be about 36.
Since I want to do a 2 day CF I went and did .48 % IDY.
 I didn't know that for a longer CF you need more yeast. Interesting and I will experiment with that in future, myself. do you also need to bump up the sugar too or is that more for flavor and or browning?

I'm still working my way towards really understanding dough. I've been using around 0.5% IDY for 48 hours, but it's actually not all CF. I've been pulling it from the fridge for a couple hours at the start of day 2, then going back into the fridge. I'm learning to judge the dough based on the bubble formation on the bottom of the container. I'd like to keep increasing the fermentation to find the line. I crossed the line twice at the beginning of my dough experiments, but that was when my fridge was broken and 20 degrees warmer. With the fridge at 36 degrees I'm finding I need the dough at room temp to really get it going. But maybe I should increase my IDY even further.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on May 19, 2019, 11:14:42 AM
Who's the guy with the huge head in your new avatar?  Did they hire a caricature artist for your latest holiday party at work?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on May 19, 2019, 11:37:48 AM
Who's the guy with the huge head in your new avatar?  Did they hire a caricature artist for your latest holiday party at work?

 ;D I always liked those caricatures...I guess this is the 21st century version, called bitmoji...if I were a cartoon, that'd be me :)

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on May 19, 2019, 12:11:36 PM
Who's the guy with the huge head in your new avatar?  Did they hire a caricature artist for your latest holiday party at work?

Obviously it doesn't look exactly like Matt, the pepperoni is a dead giveaway!  :-D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on May 19, 2019, 08:37:20 PM
Yum. Been a while since I used 100% whole milk mozz, this was Boars Head, and makes me question why I ever switched to 50/50.

Used Lieber's Pizza Spice again, but swapped out a portion of it for dried oregano. Add added fresh basil back in. Still only romano, no parm.

Tried 66% water and 4% oil. Not sure it made any difference on what ended up being a super thin undercrust. I overstretched to 14.5" and had way too much rim to begin with. The rim itself tasted bland (but was just fine when dipped in extra sauce).

8:10 bake with 5:10 on mesh. 510-520 stone. Oven set to 510.

What I still don't have right is my undercrust. Too thin, not able to hold up under the massive quantity of sauce. I tried putting the pizza on cardboard instead of a metal tray. It did allow steam to escape, but still couldn't solve the undercrust issue.

Next time:
- maybe move a little more Lieber's to oregano
- try yet again to get a thincker and studier undercrust
- whole milk mozz
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on May 19, 2019, 09:53:50 PM
Really nice NY looking pie.   Nice!!!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on May 19, 2019, 10:02:07 PM
Looks good, Matt. Have you tried a cooling rack instead of a pan or cardboard? Every pizza I make goes on the cooling rack before cutting and again after.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on May 19, 2019, 10:11:11 PM
That痴 a beauty Matt! I do the same thing as tony, two minutes on a cooling rack.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on May 19, 2019, 10:44:38 PM
Yum. Been a while since I used 100% whole milk mozz, this was Boars Head, and makes me question why I ever switched to 50/50.

Used Lieber's Pizza Spice again, but swapped out a portion of it for dried oregano. Add added fresh basil back in. Still only romano, no parm.

Tried 66% water and 4% oil. Not sure it made any difference on what ended up being a super thin undercrust. I overstretched to 14.5" and had way too much rim to begin with. The rim itself tasted bland (but was just fine when dipped in extra sauce).

8:10 bake with 5:10 on mesh. 510-520 stone. Oven set to 510.

What I still don't have right is my undercrust. Too thin, not able to hold up under the massive quantity of sauce. I tried putting the pizza on cardboard instead of a metal tray. It did allow steam to escape, but still couldn't solve the undercrust issue.

Next time:
- maybe move a little more Lieber's to oregano
- try yet again to get a thincker and studier undercrust
- whole milk mozz

Resident NY pizza master.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on May 20, 2019, 03:36:24 AM
 Matt, your work is a constant inspiration, I have learned much from you and others here. Many Thanks.  Great pie as always.

I tried a formula of yours. Did it by food processor and opened with oil for first time. I dont know if its the sugar, hydration or extra bit of yeast but the crust had a very nice flavor and texture. It had chewiness but not too much.

I also tried a more simple crushed tomato sauce only added a pinch of salt and oregano. Strained as you suggested. Very nice change.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on May 20, 2019, 01:08:24 PM
 :drool: nailed it! Really great looking pizza, the last pic looks especially delicious!

I'm a fan of Boars Head mozz for sure, it's overpriced but works great and is pretty easy to find.

What's your TF for that pizza? One thing I learned from making cheese pizzas is the same dough in a pizzeria setting has to be strong enough to support one with the works, even watery veggie toppings. Harry always said NY pies were thicker than than appeared for that reason.


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on May 20, 2019, 08:27:02 PM
Thanks everyone!

I don't use a cooling rack for my NY pies, but I do for my pan pizzas. I actually wrote a couple weeks ago that I'd try it for NY, but I decided not too. I wanted to see the impact of the cardboard on its own. Note that my 'cooling rack' is actually a normal pizza screen sitting on a stand. I have an actual cooling rack, but its a small rectangle and the pie would hang over quite a bit.

One interesting thing about my pan pizzas that sit on my makeshift cooling rack for 2 minutes, is that they stay very hot. It's possible that the thicker sauce stays hot longer, but I suspect its a result of the bake time. And that it's additional evidence that my NY undercrust is underbaked. While my pan pizzas bake with the oven set to a lower temp than NY (460), the pan sits on a stone that is the same temp as my NY pizzas (510-520). And the pan sits on that stone for more than 15 minutes, which is double the bake time of my NY pizzas.

I once studied, and even tried to measure, the layers of a pizzeria pizza I bought. There was a full 1/16" of brown undercrust, 1/16-1/8" of crumb that varied with a taper, and 1/16" gum line. My brown undercrust is thinner than that. And in this case, the entire undercrust was maybe 1/16" thin, meaning I didn't get those 3 layers.

As for TF, I struggle with the TF concept generally, but definitely agree that the average NY slice is a lot thicker than people think. My dough weight was 410 grams, which would be a TF of 0.09375 for a 14" pie, but this pie was overstretched to around 14.5" and the rim was thick. See my comment above about how thin it was and it being one layer. I'd say it was what I'd think of as a TF of 0.07.

QD - do your slices stand straight? Your wetness seems similar to mine, and I think you have less dough than I do generally. But I know you bake direct on steel.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on May 25, 2019, 07:16:27 PM
I was browsing amazon and saw this... thought if you cut the handle off it could work well as a pizza screen. Its 18/8 steel which is pretty resistant to heat and food safe.

https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B000OLC8IM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_cWC6Cb8YFJ2WB (https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B000OLC8IM/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_i_cWC6Cb8YFJ2WB)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on May 25, 2019, 10:45:51 PM
Nice find maybe there is a bigger diameter available....    I wanted to add to the conversation.  I think I can make a decent NY Pizza.  And I have had Jonny's for  years   50 years in fact.    The other night I had 2 doughs .  One I made in the traditional way.  Then I got creative about recent readings here and I got out the rolling pin.. 17 inch no problem  Rim LOL what Rim except I pinched one.  One thing more that I did different is I put the cheese down first then I dripped in circles over the cheese.   650 in a Waring WPO750 and these pies were different as day and night.   Same Dough, Same Sauce, Same Cheese,    BOOM!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on May 25, 2019, 11:16:38 PM
Nice find maybe there is a bigger diameter available....    I wanted to add to the conversation.  I think I can make a decent NY Pizza.  And I have had Jonny's for  years   50 years in fact.    The other night I had 2 doughs .  One I made in the traditional way.  Then I got creative about recent readings here and I got out the rolling pin.. 17 inch no problem  Rim LOL what Rim except I pinched one.  One thing more that I did different is I put the cheese down first then I dripped in circles over the cheese.   650 in a Waring WPO750 and these pies were different as day and night.   Same Dough, Same Sauce, Same Cheese,    BOOM!
If you do this again I would love to see side-by-side pictures.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on May 26, 2019, 06:00:40 AM
If you do this again I would love to see side-by-side pictures.

Agreed, we like pics  :)

I did a pan pizza recently with cheese then sauce on top. It does change the pie dramatically. I liked it, and can see doing it occasionally.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on May 26, 2019, 10:20:15 AM
Agreed, we like pics  :)

I did a pan pizza recently with cheese then sauce on top. It does change the pie dramatically. I liked it, and can see doing it occasionally.
Will Do   Gene
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on May 26, 2019, 02:15:00 PM
Agreed, we like pics  :)

I did a pan pizza recently with cheese then sauce on top. It does change the pie dramatically. I liked it, and can see doing it occasionally.

I really like the L&B protocol.  I haven't done it in along time because carbs.



Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on May 26, 2019, 02:53:13 PM
I really like the L&B protocol.  I haven't done it in along time because carbs.

That looks really good! I dig the jalapeno touch.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on May 26, 2019, 04:05:20 PM
I really like the L&B protocol.  I haven't done it in along time because carbs.
That recipe is the best Sicilian Pie ever.   I have made it a bunch of times using the starter style.  I have par baked the doughs a day before and wrapped them in plastic wrap.  So you can bang out 3 pies in minutes on serving day.  Great when having guests.  Timing of the protocol makes it a bit time consuming.    Gene
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jvp123 on May 26, 2019, 08:26:13 PM
I really like the L&B protocol.  I haven't done it in along time because carbs.

Nice one, JKB!  :chef:  This is a par baked dough and then finished with the sauce and cheese?

We're having a party for my son's bday next weekend and I'm thinking of par baking a couple of sicilian doughs the day before so I can finish two at the same time in the oven on bake day.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on May 26, 2019, 08:32:47 PM
Nice one, JKB!  :chef: 


Sure is...I actually thought that was an L&B pie, kinda still do. Dont think I can give a higher compliment than that.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on May 26, 2019, 08:49:51 PM
This is a par baked dough and then finished with the sauce and cheese?



I'm pretty sure it wasn't.  That was over two years ago.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on May 27, 2019, 08:27:50 PM
Good pie, but not exactly mind-blowing.

Did achieve a light crispness and sturdy slice curtesy of more stone time and use of a cooling rack (and served on cardboard again). Thanks Tony for the nudge towards the cooling rack.

Replaced more of the Lieber's spice mix with regular oregano, and couldn't taste the Lieber's. No change to romano, but couldn't really taste that either.

Probably a bit too crisp for me, that's just not my preference.

8:00 bake with only 3:10 on mesh (started the transfer process at 2:45) and the final 30 seconds was with the oven door open as I wanted more stone time but was concerned the mozz was going to overcook.

Sat on my makeshift cooling rack for 1:10, then transferred to the cardboard circle.

Stretched it pretty evenly, focused on staying towards the edge before picking it up. Still ended up a bit overstretched at around 14.25".

9oz Boars Head WM mozz again. 3/4 cups + 3 spoons sauce.

Only 1.85% oil...and 60% water.


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on May 27, 2019, 08:40:14 PM
I love the way you document the process.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on May 27, 2019, 09:24:34 PM
Pie looks really nice Matt, what did you think it needed? An extra handful of romano?  :chef:

Are you still tinkering with your sauce?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 07, 2019, 07:47:12 PM
Pie looks really nice Matt, what did you think it needed? An extra handful of romano?  :chef:

Are you still tinkering with your sauce?

Thanks Ryan! I missed a bake due to allergies/cold, which gave me more time to think on this one. Still not a clear answer, but I definitely don't like well-done undercrusts. I think a light crisp at most. It's also possible that I like the undercrust without any crisp, more on the soggy end of the spectrum, but I don't think that's it. Last thought is maybe I prefer a thinner crust. Could even be all of the above. I guess I need to bake more to find out. It's interesting that I could massively underbake a crust, but almost look past it because of the flavor of the sauce and cheese, but an overbaked crust really messes with my overall flavor and can ruin a pie.

Of course I'm tinkering with my sauce! I posted a little while ago that I stumbled across a spice mix, and I've been experimenting with different amounts of it. Last bake I reduced it too much I think. I'm curious to try marjoram and thyme separately on a couple pies to see what part of the mix I like. That'd give me endless fun of creating my own mix. For those keeping score at home (I guess I miss following baseball a bit), Lieber's Pizza Spice ingredients in order are: Oregano, Basil, Marjoram, Garlic, Thyme, Crushed Red Pepper, Savory.

I'm hoping to bake again this weekend, though I have a pan pie planned, so will be another week before I bake a NY.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Carmine Abramo on June 07, 2019, 08:49:40 PM
Thanks Ryan! I missed a bake due to allergies/cold, which gave me more time to think on this one. Still not a clear answer, but I definitely don't like well-done undercrusts. I think a light crisp at most. It's also possible that I like the undercrust without any crisp, more on the soggy end of the spectrum, but I don't think that's it.

I would say most New Yorkers don't like a well done crust which to me equates to dry and crunchy.  I would imagine that is why people on the New York forum don't particularly like to use All Trumps because if you're making well done crunchy pizza, it doesn't matter what flour one uses.  It used to be as sacrilege as a toasted bagel which people started doing more recently.  Loses alot of the specific texture of what makes a good New York pizza and New York bagels.  My 2 cents fwiw.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 07, 2019, 09:14:42 PM
I would say most New Yorkers don't like a well done crust which to me equates to dry and crunchy.  I would imagine that is why people on the New York forum don't particularly like to use All Trumps because if you're making well done crunchy pizza, it doesn't matter what flour one uses.  It used to be as sacrilege as a toasted bagel which people started doing more recently.  Loses alot of the specific texture of what makes a good New York pizza and New York bagels.  My 2 cents fwiw.

My sense is that many native NYers grew up on re-heated slices which leads them to prefer a crispy crust. (Though not necessarily well-done, or crunchy.) Though perhaps my view is skewed by my wife's family, who seem to like all their foods overcooked.

I grew up eating take-out pizzas, which certainly has helped shaped my preferences.

Thanks Carmine. (BTW, I agree regarding bagels. I'd only toast it if it was a few days old and stale.)

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Carmine Abramo on June 07, 2019, 10:24:10 PM
My sense is that many native NYers grew up on re-heated slices which leads them to prefer a crispy crust. (Though not necessarily well-done, or crunchy.) Though perhaps my view is skewed by my wife's family, who seem to like all their foods overcooked.

I grew up eating take-out pizzas, which certainly has helped shaped my preferences.

Thanks Carmine. (BTW, I agree regarding bagels. I'd only toast it if it was a few days old and stale.)

My take on the reheated slice aspect today is reheated slices in general are not so good.  They sit around in the counter for who knows how long and often reheated too long and dry.  Busy places don't, but will reheat at request for those who like it which is fine or for toppings you will know a good place they don't have 15 different pies sitting out just a plain a pepperoni and maybe a sausage.   If you want mushrooms, they'll put it on a slice and reheat.  Also a correct reheat is to just get it to temp not to transform it into a dry crisp as the English would say

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on June 15, 2019, 01:52:27 AM
My take on the reheated slice aspect today is reheated slices in general are not so good.  They sit around in the counter for who knows how long and often reheated too long and dry.  Busy places don't, but will reheat at request for those who like it which is fine or for toppings you will know a good place they don't have 15 different pies sitting out just a plain a pepperoni and maybe a sausage.   If you want mushrooms, they'll put it on a slice and reheat. 

My experience in nyc is that most busy places have a number of pies under the counter to meet demand. Those pies need to be reheated. And not sure about your definition of good but Pizza suprema is often mentioned as one of the top pizza spots in manhattan and always has 15 different pies sitting out.

I do agree it痴 a crime against humanity to toast a good, fresh bagel  :)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Carmine Abramo on June 15, 2019, 09:20:03 AM
My experience in nyc is that most busy places have a number of pies under the counter to meet demand. Those pies need to be reheated. And not sure about your definition of good but Pizza suprema is often mentioned as one of the top pizza spots in manhattan and always has 15 different pies sitting out.


At least half of those pies in the counter have broccoli or pineapple!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on June 15, 2019, 10:21:44 AM
I love pizza that's been sitting out for an hour. A fresh slice right out of the oven is often too hot to really taste anything.

IME all reheated slices come out "toasted" on the bottom. And flatter rimmed pizzas will come out more crunchy (which could be construed as dry, but to me it's like a flaky Italian breadstick and can be a desirable characteristic)

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on June 15, 2019, 10:36:21 AM
"A crispy reheat slice is a good thing.  Different, but good.  A warm, fresh bagel shall never be toasted.  A crappy bagel, burnt in the toaster, and slathered with butter can be a marvelous thing."


- The gospel according to John.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on June 15, 2019, 10:42:49 AM
This info is for Matt and Ryan (since I know you guys have a focus on NY style. I purchased a can of this the other day and it is really, really good stuff. If you can get your hands on a can I 100% recommend for NY style. I'm going to make some dough today - plan on using in the sauce and for a sprinkle on top of the cheese pre bake - OK, maybe some post bake too :-) It reminded me of NY the second I tasted it - red peppers just a touch of garlic -- some red peppers and salt - perfect balance and the oregano flavor is right out of a NY pizza shop!!!!!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 15, 2019, 02:41:09 PM
I typically avoid reheats and will buy a whole pie as 1) I'm not a fan of alot of crisp and more importantly 2) reheated slices can be very inconsistent depending on age and reheat time (even if asking for it 'not too hot').

My visit to Tommy's in the Bronx cemented my view. I had 2 reheated slices, one was from an older pie and it was totally dried out (crumb, sauce, and cheese). Here's the link to my review and pics, and below is a screenshot of the 2 slices (one good, one not).
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=51924.msg552767#msg552767

All that said I know reheats are popular,  and I've had good reheated slices (for example plain slice at Suprema), but I feel like it's a gamble.


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 15, 2019, 02:56:00 PM
...some red peppers and salt - perfect balance and the oregano flavor is right out of a NY pizza shop!!!!!

Interesting Norm! Does the container/package have the ingredients? I did a preliminary search and had some inconsistent results. It seems the order is garlic, red pepper, oregano, salt...but one site then lists "other spices". If that's really the case,  I suspect the "other spices" are key.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on June 15, 2019, 04:07:56 PM
Matt, we must have read the same stuff before I ordered it because I ran into the same conflicting info.

On the can it only lists Garlic, Crushed Red Pepper, Oregano and Salt (in that order). But it sure tastes like there is more going on beyond that. I took a photo of a small dusting and it looks like more than 4 different things so I'm a little confused about what is listed on the can.

Happy to send you a teaspoon or two if you want to try it - plus I would not mind getting your opinion on it :-)

Just let me know and keep making those fantastic NY pies!!!!!!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 15, 2019, 04:21:10 PM

On the can it only lists Garlic, Crushed Red Pepper, Oregano and Salt (in that order). But it sure tastes like there is more going on beyond that. I took a photo of a small dusting and it looks like more than 4 different things so I'm a little confused about what is listed on the can.


That kinda looks like the Sicilian Oregano I use off the stalk. In mine there are dark green pieces that will break rather than bend, and lighter softer pieces that are kindof like a flower. IIRC crushed red pepper flakes are 3 different colors too. So it's possible the visible stuff is just oregano and pepper. And the garlic, salt and anything else could be too fine to see?

Edit: also I just found it seems to be owned by a company in NJ
http://www.spicechain.com/ourbrands.html


One of Spice Chain's founders was the first to import Hungarian Paprika to the America. We proudly carry on his tradition under the original Szeged brand.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on June 15, 2019, 04:25:03 PM
No way for me to know for sure, I'm just happy I stumbled across it and anxious to try it on a pie :-)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 15, 2019, 04:26:59 PM
No way for me to know for sure, I'm just happy I stumbled across it and anxious to try it on a pie :-)

Ah, I didnt realize you tasted it raw. Let us know how the pie turns out!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on June 15, 2019, 04:28:17 PM
OK, will do - fingers crossed - wonder if anyone else has tried it on a pie yet?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 15, 2019, 04:39:39 PM
OK, will do - fingers crossed - wonder if anyone else has tried it on a pie yet?

A forum search only yielded one other post, and there wasnt much detail. The reviews on Amazon are positive though, with a bunch of people really liking it on their pizzas. I'm definitely intrigued.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on June 15, 2019, 04:47:11 PM
I need to get in the kitchen and make some dough - I was going t do two big pies but I guess I'll do another set of 14 inch pies to test it out - I also found some interesting cheese (I have never tried before) - it is called butterkaese. I'm thinking it will taste good on a pie - I like the depth of flavor cold and thinking the warm melt on a pie will be even better. So many tests - so little time :-)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on June 15, 2019, 05:18:16 PM
Will be waiting to hear how that pizza spice turns out on your pies Norm!

Your photo makes me think perhaps I've been crushing my spices too much. I usually break the oregano in my hands after reading about that releasing essential oils, but maybe I should be using larger pieces, so the bites that do contain it are more distinct and bold.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on June 15, 2019, 05:24:00 PM
Yay, my dough is made - do you care if I post the pies here or would you rather me post them somewhere else - interesting idea on crushing the spices - I never considered that. I alway just roll the stalks between my hands (in the bag) and then scoop out the loose oregano from the bottom of a plastic bag. Some of it is crushed a lot but most is not too crushed?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 15, 2019, 05:47:35 PM
Post em up!

I'm very cautious about breaking up spices. I think the bigger pieces give me the punch I need. I may do a little breaking with the stuff off the stalk, but I've never broken the regular spices.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on June 15, 2019, 06:23:18 PM
I don't tend to do strongly seasoned sauce, but I heat some Saporito Super Heavy, salt, pepper, garlic, anchovy, oil and a bit of oregano in a sauce pan for a few minutes and add that to milled tomatoes.  I think it creates a subtle foundation.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on June 15, 2019, 06:27:31 PM
If you aren't doing MAE method I think it helps if you make the sauce a day or 2 ahead of time to let the herbs and other spices marinate with the tomato. I noticed even just a simple sauce with a few basil leaves, oregano, salt and b pepper had a much stronger flavor the next day. The fresh basil definitely adds a sweetness too if it is left to sit in the tomato sauce.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 16, 2019, 08:49:42 PM
Well this was a new personal best! And I think all 3 major components were personal bests, all on the same pie.

Sauce:
Tried fresh oregano for the first time, wow! In my 1.25 cups thin tomato I added 1/2 tsp of small pieces. I also added 1/2 tsp of Lieber's spice mix (oregano, basil, marjoram, garlic, thyme, crushed red pepper, savory), and a cut up basil leaf that was a little large. Plus my usual 1 tsp of sugar and 3 tsp romano. Sauce sat at room temp for 2 hours. (Romano added just before bake.)

Cheese:
It melted milky and delicious. Normally I'd complain about how this looked, but I was shocked by how good it tasted. 8.5oz of whole milk boars head mozz, it was mostly cubed because the 2 thin slices I received weren't good for grating. I think the cubes made a big difference.

Crust:
Back to 4% oil, also increased the water 1% to 59%. Really liked this dough. Looking at it on the screen, it just had a nicer looking texter than normal. And the baked result was great.
I mixed it longer, and let it sit at room temp for a few hours before going into the fridge. After sitting out a few hours pre-bake, it went into the fridge for about 45 minutes. It was a nice temp when opening. I didn't go anywhere near the middle, just working the very edge until it was around 10". Then over my knuckles for one revolution and I got it to 14".
Dough ball was 400 grams, slightly smaller than usual. Could go a little smaller probably. Could also try 3% oil/60% water to see.

Bake:
Stone usual 510, left the oven set to my max of 535 (which is an increase).
7:30 bake, with 3:30 on the mesh screen.
Cooled on a screen for 1:10.
Then normal metal serving tray.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 16, 2019, 08:50:01 PM
And the pizza pics

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on June 16, 2019, 09:04:00 PM
U nailed it Matt - that looks perfect!!!!!!!!

I'm right behind you getting ready to make my pies now!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: nickyr on June 16, 2019, 10:01:04 PM
OMG I am so jealous. Also I want to eat it.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Carmine Abramo on June 16, 2019, 10:43:13 PM
And the pizza pics

A good sauce and that kind of cheese melt is what I'm talking about!!

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on June 16, 2019, 10:44:24 PM
Well Matt, mine did not turn out as nice as yours but I will say the addition of Butterkaese cheese w/ the mozzarella and Provolone was really good - did 1/2 with Butterkaese and 1/2 without and the side with the Butterkaese was so much better. I ended up defrosting a 16 oz tub of Full Red thinking it was 7/11 so the sauce was a touch off -- even after thinning but the pizza tasted good!!!!

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on June 16, 2019, 11:04:48 PM
And the pizza pics

What a great looking pizza  :drool: You're really setting the bar with this one  ;)

Like that fresh oregano touch too!!

The 1 o'clock slice has my name all over it  >:D






Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on June 17, 2019, 04:38:07 PM
Matt that looks perfect. And the bottom.... dang... its beautiful. Uniformly golden brown from rim to tip. :drool:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on June 17, 2019, 06:21:00 PM
Well Matt, mine did not turn out as nice as yours but I will say the addition of Butterkaese cheese w/ the mozzarella and Provolone was really good - did 1/2 with Butterkaese and 1/2 without and the side with the Butterkaese was so much better. I ended up defrosting a 16 oz tub of Full Red thinking it was 7/11 so the sauce was a touch off -- even after thinning but the pizza tasted good!!!!

Still a good looking pie!!

What did you think of that seasoning Norm? Did it remind you of NY?

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on June 17, 2019, 06:32:06 PM
So good!!!!!  Kudos.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 17, 2019, 06:46:20 PM
Thanks very much everyone! I'm still surprised by how different this was compared to my usual pies. I didnt think fresh oregano would have the impact that is seems to have had. Next step - try to duplicate this bake next weekend.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: PizzAmateur on June 17, 2019, 06:46:25 PM
A good sauce and that kind of cheese melt is what I'm talking about!!


Yes, the cheese has not broken down and still retains its stretchy character.  Too often, my own and other pizzas I see have the cheese totally converted by too much heat for too long.


Well, that is the best way I can describe it.


If that is how you like it, then good for you!  But I like my cheese to maintain a certain quality that is lost if it is over cooked.   jmho
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 17, 2019, 06:48:22 PM

Yes, the cheese has not broken down and still retains its stretchy character.  Too often, my own and other pizzas I see have the cheese totally converted by too much heat for too long.


Well, that is the best way I can describe it.


If that is how you like it, then good for you!  But I like my cheese to maintain a certain quality that is lost if it is over cooked.   jmho

It's odd because I've always coveted the orange grease that results from the cheese breaking down. But this pie was able to get tons of flavor without it.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on June 17, 2019, 07:02:57 PM
It's odd because I've always coveted the orange grease that results from the cheese breaking down. But this pie was able to get tons of flavor without it.
Interesting, I always thought the same.

Two questionss, where does one buy a mesh screen and the seasoning pack?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on June 17, 2019, 07:25:48 PM
You can replicate pre shredded cheese level moisture pretty easily. I find if I shred my cheese half a day or a day before hand and store it in paper towel and saran wrap or plastic bag sealed 90%, the shreds appear dryer than when freshly grated.
This will also work for blocks that appear too moist when just taken out of packaging. I find I can store mozz in fridge for a while longer as long as I wrap it in paper towel or parchment paper and then in a partially sealed bag. Parchment paper works best I find, but in a pinch a napkin or papertowel will do good.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on June 17, 2019, 07:42:50 PM
Thanks very much everyone! I'm still surprised by how different this was compared to my usual pies. I didnt think fresh oregano would have the impact that is seems to have had. Next step - try to duplicate this bake next weekend.

Was it the missing flavor you've been looking for?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 17, 2019, 08:22:38 PM
Was it the missing flavor you've been looking for?

I'm not sure yet that it was "THE" missing flavor, but could have been "A" missing flavor. I also think that some of the ingredients in the spice blend were missing flavors too. I'm guessing the marjoram and red pepper flakes. But could be the thyme and savory too. I'll need to get the individual spices to try to figure it out.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 17, 2019, 08:31:20 PM

Two questionss, where does one buy a mesh screen and the seasoning pack?

The screens are handmade by a guy in the Queens area that provides them to pizzerias. Not a retail business...I really got lucky to get one. (And I'm still not convinced this is better than a stone launch, but I'm too chicken to find out.)

The spice blend atleast should be easy to get. Here is a website that sells individual shakers for $1.89, though I dont know their shipping and havent used them.
https://www.aviglatt.com/lieber-39-s-pizza-spice-1.75-oz

And here it is on Amazon,  but they only sell 3 packs.
https://www.amazon.com/Liebers-Pizza-Spice-Kosher-Passover/dp/B06XX34CDZ

Mine probably came from a supermarket in years past, but I wouldn't expect to find it in a store outside NY.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Irishboy on June 17, 2019, 11:03:07 PM
That has to be one of the best New York pizzas I have seen
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on June 18, 2019, 01:35:25 AM
You can replicate pre shredded cheese level moisture pretty easily. I find if I shred my cheese half a day or a day before hand and store it in paper towel and saran wrap or plastic bag sealed 90%, the shreds appear dryer than when freshly grated.
This will also work for blocks that appear too moist when just taken out of packaging. I find I can store mozz in fridge for a while longer as long as I wrap it in paper towel or parchment paper and then in a partially sealed bag. Parchment paper works best I find, but in a pinch a napkin or papertowel will do good.

Kind of embarassing... I was on the 1st page of this thread thinking it was the latest page thus my comment about pre shredded cheese. Whoops.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on June 18, 2019, 09:43:26 AM
Still a good looking pie!!

What did you think of that seasoning Norm? Did it remind you of NY?

Thanks Ryan and sorry for the late response - I'm subscribed to Matt's topic (hard not to be with the NY pies he is making) - but I did not get a notification of a new post. The seasoning is now in my rotation - I really like it and it does / did bring me back. I liked it in the sauce and on top of the cheese but it was a touch too hot on top of my wife's vegan pie. The new cheese was also out of this world - I did 60% mozzarella 20% super young and mild provolone and 20% Butterkaese. The Butterkaese is also now in my official rotation - recommend you try some if you can find it. It really added a smooth buttery taste to the cheese - something that I think cheese has lost over the last 30 years.

Unfortunately I did not use my calculator for the cheese so I ended up over cheesing -- I have had worse things happen in my life :-)

I also had problems with thinking I was out of All Trumps so did a 50/50 blend on the flour, then remembered I had more - the whole pizza night was a comedy of errors - had a big problem when trying to drag my pie over to my peel (it is a good workflow for up to a 12 inch pie but after that -- with a thin pie it becomes problematic) - that is why the sauce and topping are all over the place. Still tasted good so just another live and learn pizza day!!!!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on June 18, 2019, 01:22:32 PM
I'm not sure yet that it was "THE" missing flavor, but could have been "A" missing flavor. I also think that some of the ingredients in the spice blend were missing flavors too. I'm guessing the marjoram and red pepper flakes. But could be the thyme and savory too. I'll need to get the individual spices to try to figure it out.

I tried fresh oregano before but can't remember how I liked it, I'll have to pick some up and try again! I remember asking about it (I think in the NY sauce discussion) and most suggested opting for dry for NY style, but some of Tom Lehmann's comments on fresh oregano regarding heartburn piqued my interest a while back. Harry used to mention using fresh and dried garlic in his NY sauce for their different flavors, maybe you had something similar going on with the fresh and dried oregano.

I haven't tried thyme in my sauce, but I know it's used in some of the Midwest style Thin N Crispy pizzas I grew up on.
I remember Roy was messing with small amounts of mint in his sauce. To me, the marjoram adds kind of a floral note which seems to balance the peppery oregano, I think that's what Roy was kind of going for.




Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on June 18, 2019, 01:28:09 PM
Thanks Ryan and sorry for the late response - I'm subscribed to Matt's topic (hard not to be with the NY pies he is making) - but I did not get a notification of a new post. The seasoning is now in my rotation - I really like it and it does / did bring me back. I liked it in the sauce and on top of the cheese but it was a touch too hot on top of my wife's vegan pie. The new cheese was also out of this world - I did 60% mozzarella 20% super young and mild provolone and 20% Butterkaese. The Butterkaese is also now in my official rotation - recommend you try some if you can find it. It really added a smooth buttery taste to the cheese - something that I think cheese has lost over the last 30 years.

Unfortunately I did not use my calculator for the cheese so I ended up over cheesing -- I have had worse things happen in my life :-)

I also had problems with thinking I was out of All Trumps so did a 50/50 blend on the flour, then remembered I had more - the whole pizza night was a comedy of errors - had a big problem when trying to drag my pie over to my peel (it is a good workflow for up to a 12 inch pie but after that -- with a thin pie it becomes problematic) - that is why the sauce and topping are all over the place. Still tasted good so just another live and learn pizza day!!!!

Man I know how those pizza days go, sometimes there's nothing you can do but laugh and enjoy the pie!
I appreciate your feedback Norm, I may grab some of that blend your using from Parthenon Foods and try it out!

Sounds like you're dialing in a solid blend too! I usually just use mozz/parm/romano for NY but I admit I haven't been super experimental with cheeses. That butterkaese sounds really interesting after reading this little blurb on it. https://www.bonappetit.com/story/butterkase-cheese
I think I have seen this around locally, will keep my eyes peeled!

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on June 18, 2019, 01:58:49 PM
Sure thing buddy - your post reminded me I also put some pecorino romano cheese on top of my sauce - can't put it in the sauce (but would like too) since my wife does not eat cheese. See photo below!!!

Pizza, Pizza!

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 18, 2019, 09:03:50 PM
Kind of embarassing... I was on the 1st page of this thread thinking it was the latest page thus my comment about pre shredded cheese. Whoops.

Funny enough I was actually (still) discussing pollyo yesterday. I still havent found a supplier that will sell the foodservice version in less than a case. I agree that we can work to remove some of the water from the retail version, but I dont know how close it will be to the foodservice version.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 18, 2019, 09:07:49 PM
I hadn't heard of butterkase before, interesting! I remember we once talked about adding butter to the cheese, and someone looking to clone a Boston pie actually did it. Not something I have planned at this point.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 18, 2019, 09:13:44 PM
Ryan, not only did I have fresh and dried oregano,  but also fresh and dried basil. I feel like I'm probably going (way?) beyond what pizzerias do, but if I like it then it's better for me.

I'm also starting to wonder if the tomato baked differently somehow this time. I blended it more, though I didnt think that would matter as I push it through a strainer after anyway. (I usually do heavy pulsing,  but saw a video where the pizzeria owner said to use the stick blender for minutes at a time.)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 18, 2019, 09:15:48 PM
Sure thing buddy - your post reminded me I also put some pecorino romano cheese on top of my sauce


What brand romano do you use? I'm obsessed with the one from boars head, but my local market stopped carrying it. I've searched others for it too, but no luck.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on June 19, 2019, 08:04:36 AM
I think it was the one below from Trader Joe's - it was OK but not one I'm going to stick with - I picked up some made in Rome (Murray's Brand) - going to compare them when I make the next pie.....
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on June 19, 2019, 09:48:11 PM
Like san marzanos have the seal of authenticity, parm reggiano, grana padano and romano can also have the DOP seal/ guarantee of authenticity. I find these ones all taste pretty similar... as they should.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 19, 2019, 09:51:21 PM
Like san marzanos have the seal of authenticity, parm reggiano, grana padano and romano can also have the DOP seal/ guarantee of authenticity. I find these ones all taste pretty similar... as they should.

I dunno...I've found locatelli too strong (and grande's romano too strong), but maybe if I used less of it it'd be good. The boars head is imported pecorino, but I find it has the nice flavor without being too much.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on June 19, 2019, 10:08:19 PM
I tasted the TJs and Murrary's side by side tonight (had spaghetti) - the Murrary's is much much stronger - like blow the back of your head off strong. The TJ's is strong too but not even close to the Murrary's. The TJ's tasted a little more like plastic compared to the Murrary's too. I will use the Murrary's sparingly on my next pie... Next up I will try to find a quality cows milk romano and try some side by side!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on June 19, 2019, 10:17:04 PM
I dunno...I've found locatelli too strong (and grande's romano too strong), but maybe if I used less of it it'd be good. The boars head is imported pecorino, but I find it has the nice flavor without being too much.

I read somewhere that counterfeit cheese is a real problem for the italians. I know most of the romano I have bought here pretty much has the same flavor and oiliness to it...more or less. Now parm reg can be hit or miss. I have had overly salty parm and much 'nuttier' tasting parm... both DOP.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on June 19, 2019, 11:20:31 PM
I tasted the TJs and Murrary's side by side tonight (had spaghetti) - the Murrary's is much much stronger - like blow the back of your head off strong. The TJ's is strong too but not even close to the Murrary's. The TJ's tasted a little more like plastic compared to the Murrary's too. I will use the Murrary's sparingly on my next pie... Next up I will try to find a quality cows milk romano and try some side by side!
Norm, were you left with an impression wrt to saltiness of TJ痴 vs Murray痴? Or, if you still have the packages, is the label info for sodium similar? TIA. I am a Parm Reg fan but prefer Romano in certain dishes - pastas containing meat, mainly. I have felt let down so many times by excessive salt though. It痴 left me gunshy.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on June 20, 2019, 03:10:38 AM
Maybe the Locatelli I tried was old or something but it was so overpowering, when people talk about pizza being "balanced" - I would have to use vomit as a topping to compete.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: norcoscia on June 20, 2019, 07:08:08 AM
Norm, were you left with an impression wrt to saltiness of TJ痴 vs Murray痴? Or, if you still have the packages, is the label info for sodium similar? TIA. I am a Parm Reg fan but prefer Romano in certain dishes - pastas containing meat, mainly. I have felt let down so many times by excessive salt though. It痴 left me gunshy.

I don't have the TJ's package anymore - they were both pretty salty...
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on June 20, 2019, 08:08:46 AM
I dunno...I've found locatelli too strong (and grande's romano too strong), but maybe if I used less of it it'd be good. The boars head is imported pecorino, but I find it has the nice flavor without being too much.

Locatelli is a staple in my fridge, but I prefer BelGioioso for pizza.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on June 20, 2019, 09:15:28 AM
Lidl's premier Parmesan was the best I've had. Nutty, sweet, fruity and savory with no saltiness.

However, I've converted to Kerygold Cheddar's. Their Skellig and Dubliner are my go to cheese's. You can find it at Walmart and Aldi.

https://www.kerrygoldusa.com/products/dubliner-cheese/

https://www.kerrygoldusa.com/products/skellig-cheese/

The flavor is like Parmesan and Cheddar mixed together with absolutely none of the bitterness associated with Cheddar. Imagine a more robust Parmesan with a savory tang, that's how it tastes like.

Honestly never had a Pecorino Romano or a Romano cheese I liked a lot, both are STRONG, with Pecorino being at nuclear levels of potent.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on June 20, 2019, 09:58:40 AM
I'm sure like many members, I think about building layers of flavor in my pie. I use a strong, hard cheese in the sauce and pre-bake, which seems to soften its flavor impact and finish the pie with something a little milder. After the finishing cheese comes a drizzle of calabrian chili infused evo and then fresh basil, which freshens the whole pie.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on June 20, 2019, 10:23:20 AM
I've had problems with Parmesan making the pizza taste like spaghetti. Maybe it's a post bake thing.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on June 20, 2019, 03:22:57 PM
I tasted the TJs and Murrary's side by side tonight (had spaghetti) - the Murrary's is much much stronger - like blow the back of your head off strong. The TJ's is strong too but not even close to the Murrary's. The TJ's tasted a little more like plastic compared to the Murrary's too. I will use the Murrary's sparingly on my next pie... Next up I will try to find a quality cows milk romano and try some side by side!
Ive never heard of cows milk pec romano. I suppose it would have a milder flavor than sheeps milks.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: timgiuffi on June 20, 2019, 05:51:36 PM
Ive never heard of cows milk pec romano. I suppose it would have a milder flavor than sheeps milks.

It wouldn稚 be pecorino if it痴 made from cow痴 milk.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Pazzo on June 20, 2019, 06:26:56 PM
It wouldn稚 be pecorino if it痴 made from cow痴 milk.

It would be vacchino romano. It's much more mild, similar to certain domestic parmesan.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on June 20, 2019, 09:23:54 PM
It wouldn稚 be pecorino if it痴 made from cow痴 milk.
True!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on June 21, 2019, 03:57:06 PM
On wifes orders I am making 2 Matt pies for sunday. Ill try your 59% water 4% oil that you just did. Will do it with same yeast qty and 2 day CF like you do. I havent had a proper cheese slice in a while. Will do that and maybe another white pie to go with.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on June 21, 2019, 04:03:41 PM
I've had problems with Parmesan making the pizza taste like spaghetti. Maybe it's a post bake thing.

Pecorino on the sauce before the mozz..  A little goes a long way.  Parmesan post bake.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on June 21, 2019, 05:00:53 PM
I've had problems with Parmesan making the pizza taste like spaghetti. Maybe it's a post bake thing.
I add my Parm in my sauce it goes a long way.  Romano after bake but very sparingly but I do not use it at all when using a mix of Mozz,cheddar and Provo.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 21, 2019, 05:50:22 PM
On wifes orders I am making 2 Matt pies for sunday. Ill try your 59% water 4% oil that you just did. Will do it with same yeast qty and 2 day CF like you do. I havent had a proper cheese slice in a while. Will do that and maybe another white pie to go with.

I'm flattered! Be careful about relying on my yeast and theoretical CF times. My dough spends alot of time out of the fridge now, in pretty much random times. What I've been focusing on is the bubbles on the underside of the dough. I post a picture of it everytime now.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 21, 2019, 05:52:01 PM
My take is not to do anything post bake. I want everything cooked. I mix whatever hard cheese I'm using (currently romano) into the sauce. My hope is that it melts into the sauce giving it flavor, rather than standing alone as a topping.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: GumbaWill on June 21, 2019, 06:09:30 PM
My take is not to do anything post bake. I want everything cooked. I mix whatever hard cheese I'm using (currently romano) into the sauce. My hope is that it melts into the sauce giving it flavor, rather than standing alone as a topping.

I grate my hard cheese right on top of the sauce with a micro plane. Then sometimes I hit it again after the pie comes out. Today I skipped the post-bake Parmigiano.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on June 21, 2019, 09:14:13 PM
Yeah I think for my food processor it runs dough temp up quickly so it might blow up more than normal. I am looking for a better ferment but its easy to over do it. Next time i will run cold water instead of lukewarm.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Carmine Abramo on June 21, 2019, 09:25:50 PM
I'm not sure yet that it was "THE" missing flavor, but could have been "A" missing flavor. I also think that some of the ingredients in the spice blend were missing flavors too. I'm guessing the marjoram and red pepper flakes. But could be the thyme and savory too. I'll need to get the individual spices to try to figure it out.

I would go onto say equipment has alot to do with the "missing flavor".  I worked a deck oven long time ago could never get my pizza to taste the same at home.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on June 21, 2019, 09:26:15 PM
Yeah I think for my food processor it runs dough temp up quickly so it might blow up more than normal. I am looking for a better ferment but its easy to over do it. Next time i will run cold water instead of lukewarm.

With cold tap water, your dough will come together before it reaches 78F.   With H20 temp = 130 - flour temp, I hit 78F in 45-50 seconds in my Cuisinart.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on June 21, 2019, 09:35:16 PM
My take is not to do anything post bake. I want everything cooked. I mix whatever hard cheese I'm using (currently romano) into the sauce. My hope is that it melts into the sauce giving it flavor, rather than standing alone as a topping.

I like to think of it as a seasoning.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 21, 2019, 10:05:16 PM
I would go onto say equipment has alot to do with the "missing flavor".  I worked a deck oven long time ago could never get my pizza to taste the same at home.

You're not the only one to say that...but I'll keep striving for flavor with the equipment I have.

In one of my posts I mentioned that it might have been that the tomato somehow baked differently. I'm not sure how or why, but it has to be repeatable.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on June 21, 2019, 10:45:58 PM
I would go onto say equipment has alot to do with the "missing flavor".  I worked a deck oven long time ago could never get my pizza to taste the same at home.

I have a theory that the sauce "cooks more" in a deck oven which develops the flavors differently, especially when using uncooked sauce.

I think it's due to the top and bottom of the pizza cooking more evenly from the low ceiling height of the deck oven. At home, the stone can be positioned near the top of the oven for more radiant heat, but I'm not sure it's ever quite the same.

Kind of like reheating leftover slices in a frying pan - the bottom warms up fine, but the top of the pizza is often still cold cause the slice is not being heated evenly.



Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Carmine Abramo on June 21, 2019, 11:03:26 PM
You're not the only one to say that...but I'll keep striving for flavor with the equipment I have.

In one of my posts I mentioned that it might have been that the tomato somehow baked differently. I'm not sure how or why, but it has to be repeatable.

Home ovens are unpredictable you might have gotten a random event that baked it right with the sauce.  With all your experiments, it is null and void really.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Carmine Abramo on June 21, 2019, 11:04:31 PM
I have a theory that the sauce "cooks more" in a deck oven which develops the flavors differently, especially when using uncooked sauce.

I think it's due to the top and bottom of the pizza cooking more evenly from the low ceiling height of the deck oven. At home, the stone can be positioned near the top of the oven for more radiant heat, but I'm not sure it's ever quite the same.

Kind of like reheating leftover slices in a frying pan - the bottom warms up fine, but the top of the pizza is often still cold cause the slice is not being heated evenly.

It's not a theory it's fact.  It all bakes differently the dough the sauce the cheese. 
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on June 21, 2019, 11:04:50 PM
With cold tap water, your dough will come together before it reaches 78F.   With H20 temp = 130 - flour temp, I hit 78F in 45-50 seconds in my Cuisinart.

Oh so you use pretty warm water? Never cold? Is it bad if your dough comes together before reaching that 79f range dough temp?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 21, 2019, 11:07:26 PM
I have a theory that the sauce "cooks more" in a deck oven which develops the flavors differently, especially when using uncooked sauce.

I think it's due to the top and bottom of the pizza cooking more evenly from the low ceiling height of the deck oven. At home, the stone can be positioned near the top of the oven for more radiant heat, but I'm not sure it's ever quite the same.
...

Yeah, I have had similar thoughts. But when I've tried a little pre cooking of the sauce, it didnt make a dramatic difference.  And what I find really interesting about my last bake is that the cheese melted less than usual. Likely less of a sauce boil and the cheese protecting it from above. I actually think the upper stone radiant cooking may be gentler than our ovens based on pizzeria melts.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 21, 2019, 11:09:59 PM
It's not a theory it's fact.  It all bakes differently the dough the sauce the cheese.

Sure, but the questions are why and how? The more we understand it, the closer we can come to replicating it.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on June 21, 2019, 11:24:15 PM
I actually think the upper stone radiant cooking may be gentler than our ovens based on pizzeria melts.

I think in a deck oven that radiant heat helps to cook the whole pizza from the top down, whereas at home all the hot air in the oven maybe leads to drying of the cheese, resulting in the mottled/crosshatched look.
 
But then I think of that vid Norm posted with the pizza from his deck oven, still cooking and bubbling like 30 seconds after it was pulled.

I've noticed some pizzas fresh out of the (home) oven aren't hot enough to wilt post bake basil.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Carmine Abramo on June 22, 2019, 12:01:59 AM
Yeah, I have had similar thoughts. But when I've tried a little pre cooking of the sauce, it didnt make a dramatic difference.  And what I find really interesting about my last bake is that the cheese melted less than usual. Likely less of a sauce boil and the cheese protecting it from above. I actually think the upper stone radiant cooking may be gentler than our ovens based on pizzeria melts.

You will never get the same bake at home like what they make at a pizzeria
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Carmine Abramo on June 22, 2019, 12:04:52 AM
There are few reasons for this:

1) The oven they use cooks the sauce differently and the tomato reacts differently.
2) The crust is different.  And that's like half the thing
3) The cheese transforms loses even more moisture and gets chewy
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Carmine Abramo on June 22, 2019, 12:07:48 AM
Sure, but the questions are why and how? The more we understand it, the closer we can come to replicating it.

You can't without a pizzeria oven.  The reason is the construction of that type of oven the heat source and how it bakes.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on June 22, 2019, 02:19:35 AM
You will never get the same bake at home like what they make at a pizzeria

I'll never get the same bake at home as I would in a pizzeria.  There's 46 pizzerias in town and my pizza is better than all of them.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 22, 2019, 10:45:39 AM
I made dough this morning with the plan of a same day RT. But I just put it in the fridge so that I could push back the bake. Why? Because I'm going to Lucia for a late lunch, Flushing here I come  ;D

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on June 22, 2019, 11:09:04 AM
I made dough this morning with the plan of a same day RT. But I just put it in the fridge so that I could push back the bake. Why? Because I'm going to Lucia for a late lunch, Flushing here I come  ;D

Report back.  I'm going to Lucia 7/3.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 22, 2019, 11:10:39 AM
Report back.  I'm going to Lucia 7/3.

What time do you plan on being there?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on June 22, 2019, 11:25:41 AM
What time do you plan on being there?

4ish?  Not sure.  It's a bus trip to Yankees/Mets.  I hope to hop on the 7, get a slice,  and get the boy back in time for batting practice.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 22, 2019, 11:40:23 AM
4ish?  Not sure.  It's a bus trip to Yankees/Mets.  I hope to hop on the 7, get a slice,  and get the boy back in time for batting practice.

Nice, sounds like a plan  :)


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on June 22, 2019, 12:26:16 PM
it would be a shame to go all that way and not try amore as well...
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 22, 2019, 01:04:55 PM
it would be a shame to go all that way and not try amore as well...

I'm sure it would be a tough sell for JKB on a family trip to the game. Gotta take what you can get. But, I didnt realize how close they were. Just under a mile, but would have to be by car, otherwise he'd lose too much time walking.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on June 22, 2019, 02:40:19 PM
it would be a shame to go all that way and not try amore as well...


I hear you.  The day is about baseball for my kid, not me.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 22, 2019, 08:27:33 PM
I loved Lucia. Review is posted on my review thread, linked below

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=55305.msg583210#msg583210

Added screenshots below from the video I posted at the link above to make it easier for me to compare my sauce and cheese amounts.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on June 24, 2019, 05:42:04 PM
Heres some shots of matts ny i did on sunday.
I love the level of ferment the .37% yeast gives and the effect on flavor and texture it has on the dough but I need to tame it a little so I can get a bit more workability. I really need to be gentle with the handling and shaping. I will pay more attention to final dough temp for next one.
Also, i think my cheese is a little overcooked. I am going to bring my cooking surface down to see if it effects melt.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 24, 2019, 06:15:46 PM
Heres some shots of matts ny i did on sunday.
I love the level of ferment the .37% yeast gives and the effect on flavor and texture it has on the dough but I need to tame it a little so I can get a bit more workability. I really need to be gentle with the handling and shaping. I will pay more attention to final dough temp for next one.
Also, i think my cheese is a little overcooked. I am going to bring my cooking surface down to see if it effects melt.

Nicely done! What was oven temp, stone temp and bake time? Reducing stone temp does reduce the sauce boil and impact the melt. If you're on a screen,  though the impact will be much smaller.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on June 24, 2019, 06:38:24 PM
Nicely done! What was oven temp, stone temp and bake time? Reducing stone temp does reduce the sauce boil and impact the melt. If you're on a screen,  though the impact will be much smaller.
Hey thanks! The oven temp is about 535f, steel temp I stopped recording but should be about equal or a little nore. Bake time is 6 min on screen 2 mins direct. I had the steels set up on the top rack closest to broiler. While I did get a nice crust color from that i dont think the cheese likes it.
Maybe my overall temp is too high? Is what you are saying?
If you see pics of my past white pies and mushroom green pep and pep I baked those 1 level lower on oven. Its hard to tell because i didnt do a cheese and tomato pie in thise trials but the melt appears nicer in those pies.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 24, 2019, 07:21:48 PM
Hey thanks! The oven temp is about 535f, steel temp I stopped recording but should be about equal or a little nore. Bake time is 6 min on screen 2 mins direct. I had the steels set up on the top rack closest to broiler. While I did get a nice crust color from that i dont think the cheese likes it.
Maybe my overall temp is too high? Is what you are saying?
If you see pics of my past white pies and mushroom green pep and pep I baked those 1 level lower on oven. Its hard to tell because i didnt do a cheese and tomato pie in thise trials but the melt appears nicer in those pies.

Temp sounds good. Maybe try adding more sauce and cheese  >:D

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on June 24, 2019, 07:26:40 PM
Temp sounds good. Maybe try adding more sauce and cheese  >:D

14oz of mozz was used for 18" ... maybe 16 for next time. I also used a little less than a cup for thin sauce. I did find the saputo gold to be much much dryer feeling as I was cutting it and grting it.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: GumbaWill on June 24, 2019, 08:09:08 PM
14oz of mozz was used for 18" ... maybe 16 for next time. I also used a little less than a cup for thin sauce. I did find the saputo gold to be much much dryer feeling as I was cutting it and grting it.

I have been using 16oz. of cheese and 8 oz. of sauce on my 18" pies. I think it's a nice combination. I made a chicken cordon bleu pie yesterday (12") Was surprisingly good! I want to experiment with different sauce/cheese combos.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 24, 2019, 08:12:15 PM
This post likely wont have the usual details, primarily because I'm still hungover from a wedding last night, but also because this pie was only ok.

Not enough sauce (despite 3/4 cups + 3.5 spoons for the 14" pie) and the sauce isn't thin enough. Lucia spoiled me.

I tried only cubing the Boars Head mozz, came out ok, but likely wouldn't do that again.

Everything else was the same as last week.

I should note, this was still a good pie. But given my bake last week and Lucia a couple days ago, I'm expecting magic.



Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Whisky on June 24, 2019, 09:12:16 PM
That looks really good!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on June 24, 2019, 11:25:13 PM
Thats a very different melt you got with cubed only cheese. At first I thought you went and used fresh mozz. The cubed and shredded combo you did last week seemed like the perfect blend of both worlds. You say it was only ok but it sure looks amazing. Do you usually add additional water after you strain your 7 11? Or do you use only what the can gives you?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on June 25, 2019, 12:34:34 AM
I always wondered how pizzerias got that melt. Now I know!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on June 25, 2019, 09:42:39 AM
I really like that melt, has that Joe & Pat's look.  :chef:

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on June 25, 2019, 11:19:16 AM
I especially like the looks of that slice on the plate.  I do diced occasionally because I hate shredding cheese. 
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 25, 2019, 10:23:36 PM
I especially like the looks of that slice on the plate.  I do diced occasionally because I hate shredding cheese.

I was surprised by how long it took to cube the cheese actually...grating with a potato grater is fairly quick for 1 pie
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 25, 2019, 10:26:19 PM
...Do you usually add additional water after you strain your 7 11? Or do you use only what the can gives you?

I actually switched from 7/11 to whole peeled tomato a couple months ago. First Cento SM, then Muir Glen. The Cento had much more water. (I use only the tomato,  stick blend, then though the strainer.) I have a can of Alta Cucina sitting around,  may be time to give them another shot.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on June 26, 2019, 10:09:56 AM
 :drool:I see, so when you blend and strain just the tomato do you add in water to get the thinness you like or do you get the thinness you like just from the tomatoes being blended and strained?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on June 26, 2019, 12:22:45 PM
I strain all the seeds and skin from Alta Cucina and the results need no water addition and thin how I like it.   When using Tomato Magic I have to add some water
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: C6Bill on June 26, 2019, 12:46:00 PM
Beautiful looking pies !!!! I need to follow this thread :)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on June 26, 2019, 03:18:32 PM
:drool:I see, so when you blend and strain just the tomato do you add in water to get the thinness you like or do you get the thinness you like just from the tomatoes being blended and strained?

I've never tried adding water. Though I'm not sure Muir Glen (tomato only) is thin enough, so I'll likely experiment with different brands first.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on June 26, 2019, 07:06:30 PM
I've never tried adding water. Though I'm not sure Muir Glen (tomato only) is thin enough, so I'll likely experiment with different brands first.

Thanks! When I run out of 6 in 1s, pastene kitchen readies and big can of 711 i want to try whole peeled blended and strained. Been meaning to but I have accumulated alot of canned tomatos in the past year.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 03, 2019, 08:45:48 PM
My wife went to the pizzeria distributor today, and I sent a couple questions.

Question: What Romano is popular at the pizzerias?
Answer: "white skin" is popular. "It's not a brand." I have no idea what that means. But I have some of it my fridge  :) I just googled it, the second google hit was actually this distributor. This implies to me that this term isn't used frequently (at least not on the internet).

Question: Do you sell MSG?
Answer: No! (and with attitude)

Follow up: Despite that answer, my husband said to ask, if you do sell MSG, is it popular with pizzerias.
Answer: No! Pizzerias don't use MSG, and no one should.

This is one guy at one distributor on the Queens/Long Island border, so take it for what it's worth. But he was emphatic. (The best evidence I have of a pizzeria using MSG is a video of a place in Chicago that put tape over the shaker for secret seasoning they were adding. In the YouTube comments, seemingly everyone agreed it was MSG.)

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: timgiuffi on July 03, 2019, 08:58:50 PM
I use MSG all the time but I致e never liked it in pizza sauce. It seems to make everything muddy.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on July 03, 2019, 11:01:54 PM
I use MSG all the time but I致e never liked it in pizza sauce. It seems to make everything muddy.
How is your Blood Pressure?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on July 04, 2019, 10:28:29 AM
My wife went to the pizzeria distributor today, and I sent a couple questions.

your wife went to the pizza distributor AND she asked your questions? You married well Matt!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 04, 2019, 11:26:12 AM
your wife went to the pizza distributor AND she asked your questions? You married well Matt!

Haha, I did indeed! And I think she was there while you and I were eating lunch  :)

For the record, I try to make it easy. Below are the instructions I sent. Note the spelling of Grande.



Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on July 04, 2019, 12:23:23 PM
Note the spelling of Grande.

 I have a German name with 5 I's and E's.  At my college commencement, we handed cards with our names for them to read as we received our diplomas.  I spelled it phonetically.  I would have put an H in front of the N so the first syllable in Grande didn't come out like the first syllable in grandma.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 07, 2019, 08:38:50 PM
Good pie, was hoping it'd be a bit better as I used a fresh can of Alta Cucina and a fresh loaf of Grande whole milk. I did like both the tomato and the cheese, but...

I intentionally went saucey, with a bit more sauce and a bit less cheese than normal. It could've used more cheese. Possibly a bit less seasoning. There's something in the spice blend I'm using that I don't like. I also went back to the Sicilian oregano.

Lowered the oven temp to 500. Extended the bake to 8:30, with only 2:30 direct on the stone.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: quietdesperation on July 08, 2019, 08:43:45 AM
Beautiful Matt! The crust looks a little darker than usual, are you baking a little longer?

Edit: nvmd, I see you lowered temp and extended time. How did you like it?

Also, I知 planning a trip to see my family in fl and my brother just has a screen. I was thinking about getting him a stone, do you use a peel to transfer the pie to the stone? Or is the screen placed on the stone?

Thanks!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on July 08, 2019, 10:57:17 AM
Looks great from here  :drool:

Did you use fresh oregano in the sauce or just basil?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Fiorot on July 08, 2019, 04:49:53 PM
What a beauty! 
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on July 08, 2019, 05:01:23 PM
How do you spread your sauce?  There's very little swirl action.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 08, 2019, 08:23:29 PM
Beautiful Matt! The crust looks a little darker than usual, are you baking a little longer?

Edit: nvmd, I see you lowered temp and extended time. How did you like it?

Also, I知 planning a trip to see my family in fl and my brother just has a screen. I was thinking about getting him a stone, do you use a peel to transfer the pie to the stone? Or is the screen placed on the stone?

Thanks!

Thanks QD! The under crust wasn't quite as dark as it looks because of the shadow. I have a proper under crust shot ready on my laptop,  but it didn't make the cut to be 1 of the 8 pics.

I always use a stone. I slide the screen onto the stone (then usually finish the pie without the screen). When I do pan bakes,  I put the pan directly on the stone too.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 08, 2019, 08:26:16 PM
Looks great from here  :drool:

Did you use fresh oregano in the sauce or just basil?

Thanks, just fresh basil. Plus dried sicilian oregano, and the regular oregano that's in the spice mix.

Next time I may go very simple (simple for me).

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 08, 2019, 08:29:52 PM
How do you spread your sauce?  There's very little swirl action.

Poorly, or at least unconventionally. I use a tablespoon,  but I end up adding more in spots that 'need' it then use the spoon almost as a paint brush. It takes too long and is all over the place.

But I find with the saucy Queens places that while they do have a subtle swirl, its almost like a pool of sauce, with minimal dry spots.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 14, 2019, 08:37:59 PM
Here we go! Back in business!!

Keys to this pie:

Ratio: I went back to one of my favorite bakes from back in March, and studied the pictures of the pre-bake sauce and cheese ratios. I tried to match it. A bit less sauce this time (call it 3/4 cup + 2.5 spoons) and more cheese (9+1/8 oz). Here's a link to that previous bake:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=51924.msg571105#msg571105

I also sought to replicate the bake process of the pie noted above. Stone ~510, oven set to max 535, 7:30 bake with the first 5:15 on mesh.

Sauce thinness: Super thin. This was the Alta Cucina that I stick blended last week, including the liquid in the can. I didn't notice a difference having it in the freezer for week.

As a result of the ratio and sauce thinness, this pie had a cheese/sauce experience that I had at Lucia, something that I really liked. I guess I could describe it as a melted cheese that still had some chew, that would slide with the wet sauce and mush together sitting in the wetness. See the pic with the closeup. Kindof a strange description, but the best I could do. Lucia also had this so much that some of the wet cheese fell onto the paper plate. I love picking that up and eating it.

Sauce seasoning: I went with what is very simple for me, but still more herby than most people here. The sauce only included:
- Regular grocery store dried oregano
- One cut up fresh basil leaf
- Small amounts of salt and sugar (sugar was 1/4 the amount of what I was using previously)
- Romano..more on this in a moment
My sauce did NOT include: Sicilian oregano, the Lieber's spice mix, garlic powder, pepper, oil

Romano: First time using the romano from the pizzeria distributor. I really liked it. When I smelled it I wanted to take a bite. It is very mild, the romanyness was only present as a mild aftertaste, but there was a sweetness and perhaps butteryness.

Next time?
- Maybe change a little in the sauce, I'm thinking pepper. I'm afraid to add garlic powder.
- I'd like to try putting some raw flour on the dough the way Lucia did.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 14, 2019, 08:38:21 PM
Pizza pics  :chef:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jvp123 on July 14, 2019, 09:23:01 PM
Not much to say other than WOW, Matt! :chef:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on July 14, 2019, 11:59:03 PM
Damn that's an epic melt, probably one of the best ever!  :drool:

Interesting you went for the regular grocery store oregano over the premium stuff, since you didn't mention changing the oregano next time, I'm curious of your thoughts between the herbs.

I gotta go spin a dough up after seeing that Mona Lisa!  :pizza:
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: PizzaSean on July 15, 2019, 02:24:10 AM
That cheese looks delicious!! I love the brown spots and how it melts into the sauce.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 18, 2019, 07:59:08 PM
Damn that's an epic melt, probably one of the best ever!  :drool:

Interesting you went for the regular grocery store oregano over the premium stuff, since you didn't mention changing the oregano next time, I'm curious of your thoughts between the herbs.

I gotta go spin a dough up after seeing that Mona Lisa!  :pizza:

Thanks Ryan! And thanks everyone for the likes.

Lately I've been moving towards the regular oregano, probably the last couple months. Even before I started messing with the spice mix I stumbled on, I was starting to experiment with it. I like the flavor of both types of oregano, and am trying to decide which one I prefer with this pizza. The fancy Sicilian oregano is bold, and the flavor is maybe a little spicy. And while the grocery store is more mild, I can always add more if I need it more herby.

It may have started after one of my pan bakes. I was starting to think that my pan pizza and NY pizza was starting to converge. They really aren't, as the pan pizza has a very thick pasty sauce, and 60% cheddar, but I was thinking that the Sicilian oregano may go better with that type of pizza.

Who knows...you've seen how I operate, going back and forth with these things. But at least I'm making incremental improvements along the way  :)


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 21, 2019, 08:17:38 PM
Well, you never know if you don't try. Added some fruit punch to my sauce...but what really ticked me off is I put too much cheese on the pie. Overall I thought it was so-so. My wife didn't like it.

Sauce: Into my 1.25 cup of tomato I added 5/16 tsp of Kool-Aid Tropical Punch powder. It was intriguing for sure, though I'm not convinced. My wife claimed to have tasted some tang, but she knew it was in there. But tasting the sauce, there was a bit of pineapple or something going on. I used 3/4 cup + 2 spoons of sauce on the pie.

Cheese: Record high of somewhere around 9.5oz. It was too much. Previously I had determined not to go above 9oz, but I went a bit over last week and it was great. This pie ate more like my pan pizza because of all the cheese.

Crust: For the first time while using the mesh screen, I added flour to the undercrust. This also meant that the skin under the sauce was oily. I'm not sure I noticed too much of a difference, but will do this again.

I could consider putting more romano. I had some extra that I sprinkled on top of one of my slices, and I liked it.

Lastly, I took a brief video of the first slice and it capture the orange fountain of grease being turned on  :)

https://youtu.be/4_ISUE4YIc8



Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jsaras on July 21, 2019, 09:13:33 PM
Well, you never know if you don't try. Added some fruit punch to my sauce...but what really ticked me off is I put too much cheese on the pie. Overall I thought it was so-so. My wife didn't like it.

Sauce: Into my 1.25 cup of tomato I added 5/16 tsp of Kool-Aid Tropical Punch powder. It was intriguing for sure, though I'm not convinced. My wife claimed to have tasted some tang, but she knew it was in there. But tasting the sauce, there was a bit of pineapple or something going on. I used 3/4 cup + 2 spoons of sauce on the pie.

Cheese: Record high of somewhere around 9.5oz. It was too much. Previously I had determined not to go above 9oz, but I went a bit over last week and it was great. This pie ate more like my pan pizza because of all the cheese.

Crust: For the first time while using the mesh screen, I added flour to the undercrust. This also meant that the skin under the sauce was oily. I'm not sure I noticed too much of a difference, but will do this again.

I could consider putting more romano. I had some extra that I sprinkled on top of one of my slices, and I liked it.

Lastly, I took a brief video of the first slice and it capture the orange fountain of grease being turned on  :)

https://youtu.be/4_ISUE4YIc8

Should have tried some Tang to get the tang
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: wb54885 on July 22, 2019, 12:19:02 AM
Very interesting! I just found a thread where HarryHaller73 talked about finding out someone used a dash of Zing Zang Bloody Mary mix in their sauce. I just made a round of Zing Zang bloody Marias this morning and man, do I love that stuff. How did you decide to use powder instead of dissolving/diluting the fruit punch mix in water and adding that to a pur馥, and do you think it would have made a difference? Does the fruit punch mix taste like pineapple on its own?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 22, 2019, 12:36:48 PM
Very interesting! I just found a thread where HarryHaller73 talked about finding out someone used a dash of Zing Zang Bloody Mary mix in their sauce. I just made a round of Zing Zang bloody Marias this morning and man, do I love that stuff. How did you decide to use powder instead of dissolving/diluting the fruit punch mix in water and adding that to a pur馥, and do you think it would have made a difference? Does the fruit punch mix taste like pineapple on its own?

Powder made perfect sense to me as I could add as little or much as I wanted without any dilution of the tomato or change to the consistency. All I really did was swap out my usual white sugar for this.

Initially I tasted it in the small amount of extra tomato that defrosted. I had about 2 tablespoons of tomato,  and put something like 1/8 teaspoon of powder. It tasted good and was very intriguing. So I took my usual 1.25 cup of tomato and added 1/8 tsp of powder. Tasted, then another 1/8 then another 1/16.

As to whether the flavor was pineapple,  I dont know. It's supposed to be "tropical" punch, but its artificial flavor.

(And my wife's point isn't lost on me...that I go through great lengths to get quality products then add this to it.)

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: wb54885 on July 22, 2019, 02:06:43 PM
I once worked under a beloved chef who, when tasting a sauce for the day痴 special, said 添ou know what this needs? Ketchup. As the line cooks around him started laughing at this culinary vulgarity, he snapped back with, 滴ey, my job is to make it taste good. How I get there is MY business!

I wonder what apple or grape juice would do to a pizza sauce in small amounts. I don稚 recall any of the Queens pizzerias having an overtly sugary sauce flavor, but Lucia in particular made me think of the effect of swapping out other sweeteners, like fruit juice, for refined sugar. Lemon and apple cider vinegar are other sources of tang and zest and depth I really like in a tomato sauce, so scarce you can稚 even really tell they池e there.

Interesting that Lucia won稚 sell their sauce. Can you order it as a side, I wonder?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on July 22, 2019, 02:27:51 PM
I know it's not technically NY Style but I just realized Brian Spangler of Apizza Scholls use a pecorino romano/Grano Padano blend, never thought of that.
I'll try out that blend this weekend hopefully.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chFCjfKeOb0
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on July 22, 2019, 02:34:50 PM
I once worked under a beloved chef who, when tasting a sauce for the day痴 special, said 添ou know what this needs? Ketchup. As the line cooks around him started laughing at this culinary vulgarity, he snapped back with, 滴ey, my job is to make it taste good. How I get there is MY business!

I wonder what apple or grape juice would do to a pizza sauce in small amounts. I don稚 recall any of the Queens pizzerias having an overtly sugary sauce flavor, but Lucia in particular made me think of the effect of swapping out other sweeteners, like fruit juice, for refined sugar. Lemon and apple cider vinegar are other sources of tang and zest and depth I really like in a tomato sauce, so scarce you can稚 even really tell they池e there.

Interesting that Lucia won稚 sell their sauce. Can you order it as a side, I wonder?

I tried white grape juice a few times but can't remember what I was using for the tomato base. Seems like it was crushed or whole peeled. Harry was a big proponent of using concentrated puree's, I don't think I ever tried grape juice for diluting a heavy puree but that would be interesting to try.

I've considered trying a lemon pellegrino for a sweet and tangy boost.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on July 22, 2019, 02:40:39 PM
I know it's not technically NY Style but I just realized Brian Spangler of Apizza Scholls use a pecorino romano/Grano Padano blend, never thought of that.
I'll try out that blend this weekend hopefully.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chFCjfKeOb0

Brian's pies look awesome!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 22, 2019, 08:09:19 PM
I tried white grape juice in my sauce once. But I dont think I used enough for it to make a difference.

I dont think Lucia would give me a side of sauce...but maybe I'd learn something from the side with garlic knots (see first pic)?

Second pic...maybe I should take some of that to go for my sauce   ;D

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on July 22, 2019, 08:43:33 PM
I've come to the conclusion that my sauce and dough don't need sugar.   I'm a fan of adding Saporito Super Heavy for sweetness and deep tomato flavor.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 22, 2019, 08:58:46 PM
I've come to the conclusion that my sauce and dough don't need sugar.   I'm a fan of adding Saporito Super Heavy for sweetness and deep tomato flavor.

That's something I haven't messed around with enough. It seems that a blend of whole peeled and heavy sauce is common for pizzerias.

And I've never bought Saporito. Just Bonta and Full Red paste.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on July 22, 2019, 10:30:35 PM
I've come to the conclusion that my sauce and dough don't need sugar.   I'm a fan of adding Saporito Super Heavy for sweetness andi deep tomato flavor.
I forgot to say the same in my thread tonight, well halfway.

In my opinion, sugar added to 7/11's takes away from the tomato flavor. I tried it twice with sugar adde and both times had negative results, makes it taste ketchupy.

7/11's are sweet enough out of the can!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on July 23, 2019, 12:44:29 AM
There used to be a shop here that added Chianti to its sauces, which gave it a quite distinctive and pleasant taste.. For 4 years it was 2 doors down from my office. It was a mom and daughter run place. They had consistently high standards for pizza, pastas, and a few well made entrees, such as chicken Vesuvius.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on July 23, 2019, 12:49:51 AM
Matt, have you had any prescription changes lately?  :-D  Kool-Aid, huh? Wonder how many Italian grandmothers had that on hand and tried it. I could never get a glass of Kool-Aid from mine. It was sweet tea or 7-UP as I recall.


Thanks for taking a chance and posting it. :)
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on July 23, 2019, 01:14:21 AM
makes it taste ketchupy.



yup
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: wb54885 on July 23, 2019, 01:42:11 AM
There used to be a shop here that added Chianti to its sauces, which gave it a quite distinctive and pleasant taste.. For 4 years it was 2 doors down from my office. It was a mom and daughter run place. They had consistently high standards for pizza, pastas, and a few well made entrees, such as chicken Vesuvius.

Could you say anything about its distinctiveness, specifically?
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on July 23, 2019, 10:09:38 AM
Could you say anything about its distinctiveness, specifically?
It痴 been over 20 years since they closed but I値l try.


Even though chianti is a dry wine, my wife and I were fooled into guessing how they had sweetened the sauce. Other people I ate with there described it as a sauce that was a little bit sweet. It may have been the tannins in the wine? We do know for a fact, now, they used chianti. JKB (John) and others can probably offer better info on how a dry wine could produce this effect or what, in addition to wine, may have gone into the sauce. Being a little more food literate now than I was then, looking back on it I壇 say there was a non-tomato depth of flavor that, together with the tomato, was bery good and well balanced.


I知 not saying it was my favorite sauce ever, only that it was very gold, I wish I could still have it once in a while, and that it was 租istinctive. Good luck with yours.

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on July 23, 2019, 11:35:18 AM
I forgot to say the same in my thread tonight, well halfway.

In my opinion, sugar added to 7/11's takes away from the tomato flavor. I tried it twice with sugar adde and both times had negative results, makes it taste ketchupy.

7/11's are sweet enough out of the can!

It probably tasted like ketchup cause 7-11 are so tangy and acidic.
IMO ketchup flavor screams acid, if the tomatoes taste like ketchup without adding vinegar then you already know.

I used to use 7-11 a lot but have drifted towards 6-in-1 or DiNapoli lately for pizza. The 7-11 made a great pasta sauce, the tanginess is really nice to contrast a rich meat sauce. That said, I don't think I had my food mill when I was getting 7-11 so maybe I'd like them more now. I'll grab another can next time I'm at Smart & Final, I like to get San Benito Whole Peeled SM Style w/ Basil from there for $3.50 / #10 can  :chef:

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: dmckean44 on July 23, 2019, 03:34:02 PM
People like to say a sauce tastes like ketchup but it rarely ever does. Ketchup is tastes like caramelized sugar, dehydrated garlic, vinegar and warm spices (like clove or allspice).
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: wb54885 on July 23, 2019, 06:05:05 PM
I would definitely get my hands on that side of sauce with the garlic knots. But my guess is if they池e already protective of the pizza sauce, you won稚 see them simply fill up a ramekin with the sauce from the line. If I were them, I壇 be doctoring it away from the sight of customers洋aybe the knot sauce gets extra grated Parmesan預nd preloading a bunch of ramekins for handing it out with garlic knots when ordered. So the customer would be double blind, not sure if it was the same sauce to begin with and unable to compare because I wouldn稚 be handing out my actual pizza sauce by itself for anyone to be able to learn how to identify the difference anyway, if it exists.

Who knows, maybe that elusive something in the sauce is a combination of fruit punch, Chianti, and ketchup. There痴 a gallon container of the secret formula mix in the basement, and every 5-gallon batch of sauce gets a half-cup of 鍍he stuff thrown in. When the stuff runs low, two separate employees are sent out with different shopping lists and they never see each other痴 ingredients. One leaves his mixture in the safe overnight, and the next day the other one adds his components and finishes the mixing. No single person has seen the full recipe for over 40 years.

I知 still betting the knot sauce is a dummy sauce, but I feel like that痴 gotta be the next step?!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Pete-zza on July 23, 2019, 07:56:51 PM
In the past, I have been able to use my granddaughter as a foil for getting samples of things like sauce and cheese. For example, if I wanted to get a sample of sauce, I would ask for it and tell them that my granddaughter is visiting me and says that she likes to dip the crusts of pizza in the pizza sauce. And I would get a sample. When I was working with another member to decipher the Pizza Hut stuffed crust pizza, I again used my granddaughter in my storyline as the way of getting a sample of the cheese used in their stuffed crust pizzas. I described my storyline at Reply 38 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54719.msg551377#msg551377

I think in my case that it helped that I have a grandfatherly appearance and behavior such that they do not view me as a threat or as someone trying to determine their trade secrets. I will also sometimes pose my questions like a rank amateur and intentionally misuse terms and have a puzzled look on my face so that they think that I am just a dumb old guy who doesn't know much.

Peter
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: HansB on July 23, 2019, 08:19:02 PM
In the past, I have been able to use my granddaughter as a foil for getting samples of things like sauce and cheese. For example, if I wanted to get a sample of sauce, I would ask for it and tell them that my granddaughter is visiting me and says that she likes to dip the crusts of pizza in the pizza sauce. And I would get a sample. When I was working with another member to decipher the Pizza Hut stuffed crust pizza, I again used my granddaughter in my storyline as the way of getting a sample of the cheese used in their stuffed crust pizzas. I described my storyline at Reply 38 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54719.msg551377#msg551377

I think in my case that it helped that I have a grandfatherly appearance and behavior such that they do not view me as a threat or as someone trying to determine their trade secrets. I will also sometimes pose my questions like a rank amateur and intentionally misuse terms and have a puzzled look on my face so that they think that I am just a dumb old guy who doesn't know much.

Peter

 :-D
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on July 23, 2019, 09:07:36 PM
I think it's funny how fine dining restaurants will tell you exactly how their food is made and DDD places have secret ingredients.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on July 24, 2019, 05:48:03 AM
It probably tasted like ketchup cause 7-11 are so tangy and acidic.
IMO ketchup flavor screams acid, if the tomatoes taste like ketchup without adding vinegar then you already know.

I used to use 7-11 a lot but have drifted towards 6-in-1 or DiNapoli lately for pizza. The 7-11 made a great pasta sauce, the tanginess is really nice to contrast a rich meat sauce. That said, I don't think I had my food mill when I was getting 7-11 so maybe I'd like them more now. I'll grab another can next time I'm at Smart & Final, I like to get San Benito Whole Peeled SM Style w/ Basil from there for $3.50 / #10 can  :chef:
We have 6 in 1 at work along with Bonta. Having used 6 in 1's stand-alone, in my opinion they aren't as good as 7/11's, much more dull flavor. Also every time I tried DiNapoli they tasted dull and muddy to me.

7/11s have that bright flavor I was looking for, fresh garlic rounds it out very well.

Also this partains pertains to NY Style, my sauce was not milled to remove the seeds and the sauce wasn't bitter to me and to others who are it. I'm sticking my neck out and saying seeds in sauce = bitter sauce is a wives tale.

I need to give 6 in 1 proper seasoning before I write them off.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on July 24, 2019, 06:35:59 AM
We have 6 in 1 at work along with Bonta. Having used 6 in 1's stand-alone, in my opinion they aren't as good as 7/11's, much more dull flavor. Also every time I tried DiNapoli they tasted dull and muddy to me.

7/11s have that bright flavor I was looking for, fresh garlic rounds it out very well.

Also this partains pertains to NY Style, my sauce was not milled to remove the seeds and the sauce wasn't bitter to me and to others who are it. I'm sticking my neck out and saying seeds in sauce = bitter sauce is a wives tale.

I need to give 6 in 1 proper seasoning before I write them off.

7/11 is consistent.  6in1, Cento, Sclafani...  some lots are great, others not.   I don't get too worked up about seeds.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: invertedisdead on July 24, 2019, 11:06:35 AM
We have 6 in 1 at work along with Bonta. Having used 6 in 1's stand-alone, in my opinion they aren't as good as 7/11's, much more dull flavor. Also every time I tried DiNapoli they tasted dull and muddy to me.

7/11s have that bright flavor I was looking for, fresh garlic rounds it out very well.

Also this partains pertains to NY Style, my sauce was not milled to remove the seeds and the sauce wasn't bitter to me and to others who are it. I'm sticking my neck out and saying seeds in sauce = bitter sauce is a wives tale.

I need to give 6 in 1 proper seasoning before I write them off.

Maybe you prefer the citric acid they add to 7-11's? It's a more pronounced tang than what I taste in a good whole peeled San Marzano type tomato. But I prefer a sweeter tomato as a base so I'm sure that has much to do with it.

Like I said in a recent post, I believe the unripe tomato bits, skins, cores, etc. in sauce lead to more of an off taste than the seeds. Try tasting what doesn't pass through the fine plate of a food mill, I found it to be a revelation in my pizza making. IMO removing the seeds is more of a textural thing for improved mouthfeel.


Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on July 24, 2019, 11:30:35 AM
Maybe you prefer the citric acid they add to 7-11's? It's a more pronounced tang than what I taste in a good whole peeled San Marzano type tomato. But I prefer a sweeter tomato as a base so I'm sure that has much to do with it.

Like I said in a recent post, I believe the unripe tomato bits, skins, cores, etc. in sauce lead to more of an off taste than the seeds. Try tasting what doesn't pass through the fine plate of a food mill, I found it to be a revelation in my pizza making. IMO removing the seeds is more of a textural thing for improved mouthfeel.
When I get payed I'll try to pick up an OXO food mill or whatever food mill is good, I plan on buying some Alta Cucinas soon.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: jkb on July 24, 2019, 11:30:45 AM
Maybe you prefer the citric acid they add to 7-11's? It's a more pronounced tang than what I taste in a good whole peeled San Marzano type tomato. But I prefer a sweeter tomato as a base so I'm sure that has much to do with it.

Like I said in a recent post, I believe the unripe tomato bits, skins, cores, etc. in sauce lead to more of an off taste than the seeds. Try tasting what doesn't pass through the fine plate of a food mill, I found it to be a revelation in my pizza making. IMO removing the seeds is more of a textural thing for improved mouthfeel.

I would argue the taste of food mill residue isn't necessarily relevant.  If I filtered out the 9g of salt from my dough and ate it, it would taste like crap and so would the resulting dough.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 24, 2019, 12:35:56 PM
I would argue the taste of food mill residue isn't necessarily relevant.  If I filtered out the 9g of salt from my dough and ate it, it would taste like crap and so would the resulting dough.

But salt adds to the flavor when combined with the other ingredients.  Do you think the skin etc adds to the overall flavor when combined with the rest of the tomato?

I've been on the verge of buying a mill for a while. Ryan's recent posts are pushing me across the line. (That and realizing my argument of not wanting another kitchen item to store is silly given my wife keeps getting random stuff. About time I get something I can use.)

Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on July 24, 2019, 01:08:26 PM
But salt adds to the flavor when combined with the other ingredients.  Do you think the skin etc adds to the overall flavor when combined with the rest of the tomato?

I've been on the verge of buying a mill for a while. Ryan's recent posts are pushing me across the line. (That and realizing my argument of not wanting another kitchen item to store is silly given my wife keeps getting random stuff. About time I get something I can use.)
I'm going from what others have said about 7/11's and tomato magic in rehards to skins, supposedly 7/11's have a brighter bolder tomato taste because of the skins. Tomato magic is milder, this was from an Amazon "Answered Questions".
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: hammettjr on July 24, 2019, 01:41:12 PM
I'm going from what others have said about 7/11's and tomato magic in rehards to skins, supposedly 7/11's have a brighter bolder tomato taste because of the skins. Tomato magic is milder, this was from an Amazon "Answered Questions".

Technically, the statement about 7/11 isn't about the skin itself, but they claim that keeping the skin allows them to include the layer just beneath the skin.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on July 24, 2019, 01:46:12 PM
Technically, the statement about 7/11 isn't about the skin itself, but they claim that keeping the skin allows them to include the layer just beneath the skin.
You're right.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: dmckean44 on July 24, 2019, 02:21:57 PM
Either way you're taking that layer away when you use a food mill.

I personally don't think skin and seeds taste bad and a little bit of the tannic bitterness is welcome for me but I also understand that it bothers a lot people. Almost of a third of people are super tasters who are bothered by almost any bitterness unless it's drowned out with salt.
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: GumbaWill on July 24, 2019, 02:39:51 PM
intentionally misuse terms and have a puzzled look on my face so that they think that I am just a dumb old guy who doesn't know much.

Peter

 Ha! I love it! Stupid like a fox, comes to mind!
Title: Re: Matt's NY Pizza, by HammettJr
Post by: foreplease on July 24, 2019, 04:43:20 PM
Technically, the statement about 7/11 isn't about the skin itself, but they claim that keeping the skin allows them to include the layer just beneath the skin.
Are some people then milling 7/11 hoping to keep most of the velvet and straining out some of the skins? I haven稚 ever used or seen an open can of 7/11 yet for some reason I assumed it was seed-free. Now I wonder 1) if that is true and 2) if it痴 true how do the cans still contain some skins? I think I will