Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => New York Style => Topic started by: AtHomePizza on February 13, 2021, 03:03:12 PM

Title: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 13, 2021, 03:03:12 PM
Its another weekend and another attempt at pies.
Before this weekend, I searched specifically within the New York Style section as that is my objective.
Found 2 different recipes within the NY Style threads and both were significantly better than what I have done since starting.

Here are my last 2 recipes used prior to the ones for this weekend. Once thing to note is I was previously using 21-34g of sugar compared to this weeks recipe which is only about 6g of sugar.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=67955.0
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=67956.0

This week was the first working with my modified grill which is supposed to trap in more heat.
Also, I kept the lid closed the entire time.

Dough 1

Ingredients
00 Flour          205g 
Regular Flour   100g
Water             186g
Suger               6g
Yeast                 1g
Salt                 5g
Oil                   9g

Pie Making
This dough was difficult to work with when making the pie.
It took a lot of work and had a lot of elasticity.

Cooking
Previously the grill was opened after 5 minutes to rotate the pie, but this time the lid remained closed for the entire 9:30 minutes @ 560 degrees.
Usually 9:30 is the max. Pushing to 10 and there is significant risk in burning the crust.
But this time when the pie was removed, it was actually cooked much less than any of my previous weeks.

QUESTION : Since sugar helps with the browning, I suspect the significant reduction in sugar for this weeks recipe actually slowed down the cooking.

Crust/Taste
After placing the pie on the counter and looking at the crust, it was clearly undercooked.
But the crust didn't taste undercooked. It was soft and fluffy.
In fact, even my wife commented it was the best tasting crust I have done so far.

QUESTION : Since this recipe uses much less salt and sugar than previously, from where is this taste coming?

Concerns
I specifically searched in the NY Style section for the recipe and as you can see from the pictures, the crust is still a bit on the thick side.

QUESTION : Since this recipe is a NY Style, what else needs to be done to get it thinner? Should the pie have been made thinner?
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 13, 2021, 03:10:58 PM
Dough 2

Ingredients
00 Flour          247g 
Regular Flour   100g
Water             242g
Sugar               3.47g
Yeast                 1g
Salt                 10g
Oil                   4g

Pie Making
This dough was a pleasure to work it.
It basically stretched itself out.  :D

Cooking
I lowered the temp to about 550 degrees and cooked the pie for about 12 minutes.
As stated above, usually 9:30 is the max.

QUESTION : Should I care that the pie is taking 12 minutes to cook?

Crust/Taste
After placing the pie on the counter and looking at the crust, it was cooked much more thoroughly than pie 1.
You can even see nice air pockets.
I thought it was great but my wife insists the first was much better.

Concerns
As with pie 1, this crust is still a bit on the thick side.

QUESTION : Since this too is a NY Style recipe, what else needs to be done to get it thinner?

Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 13, 2021, 03:12:31 PM
Most of my previous pies were a bit undercooked on the top especially the top of the crust.

For this week, I added a cookie sheet on top to help trap in some heat.

Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: Fiorot on February 13, 2021, 03:55:17 PM
You don't mention the ferment time of the dough.   For NY you are way too thick are those pies 12 inches?.   Since you say the dough was very elastic it could be too cold when opening, not kneaded enough or did not ferment long enough.  Also 00 flour is not your friend for NY a Bread Flour or High Gluten Flour is called for. Your dough 2 was 67percent hydration more like 55- 60 for NY    If it is too elastic open the skin then let it rest for 15 minutes and open it again.  In other words let it relax for a while.  You kinda made a low heat Neapolitan    Your Dough 2  weighed 607 grams. You should be able to open that skin to 17 -18 inches for NY thin.   Add malt for help with browning.   Also for reference my local Pizzeria uses a 22 oz ball for the 18inch NY pie =which is 627 grams.   
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 13, 2021, 04:07:51 PM
You don't mention the ferment time of the dough.   

1 hour on the counter before in the frig for 12 hours.
On the counter about 2.5 hours prior to making the pies.

For NY you are way too thick are those pies 12 inches?.   

Didn't measure but as a point of reference the working area on the peel is 14x15


If it is too elastic open the skin then let it rest for 15 minutes and open it again.  In other words let it relax for a while. 
Open the skin  ???
let it rest and open it again ???
Not familiar with this term.

Your Dough 2  weighed 607 grams. You should be able to open that skin to 17 -18 inches for NY thin.   

Dough 2 is only 347.

Add malt for help with browning.
Sugar helps with the browning.
When/How does one determine whether to use sugar or malt?
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: Peter B on February 13, 2021, 04:08:33 PM
You don't mention the ferment time of the dough.   For NY you are way too thick.   Since you say the dough was very elastic it could be too cold when opening, not kneaded enough or did not ferment long enough.  Also 00 flour is not your friend for NY a Bread Flour or High Gluten Flour is called for. Your dough 2 was 67percent hydration more like 55- 60 for NY    If it is too elastic open the skin then let it rest for 15 minutes and open it again.  In other words let it relax for a while.  You kinda made a low heat Neapolitan    Your Dough 2  weighed 607 grams. You should be able to open that skin to 17 -18 inches for NY thin.

I agree with many of the notes here.  I have found that when you are pressing out the skin, you want to make the crust much smaller than you think you need to.  Dough stretching instructions always seem to suggest a crust that ends of being much too thick, which is what I think you found here.
If you want to get the whole thing thinner, how long do you have it out of the fridge before stretching?  You probably want to go for 2-3 hours.  And you may find that you feel like you are stretching it too much, but if the dough is fermented right, be aggressive with the stretch.
I think 12 minutes may be too long what you want.  My guess is 8-10 is what you want to shoot for.  I am curious why you decided to remove the sugar, and what size pie you are going for.  that recipe looks like you should be able to do 15-16".
Hope that helps
The Broz
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 13, 2021, 04:12:36 PM
  I am curious why you decided to remove the sugar, and what size pie you are going for.  that recipe looks like you should be able to do 15-16".

My previous recipes had much more salt and sugar hoping to get some nice flavor and these recipes starting point where general pizza recipes.

The recipes from today were extracted specifically from the NY Style section of this web site.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: foreplease on February 13, 2021, 04:14:26 PM
Dough 2 is only 347.
No, Fiorot is right.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 13, 2021, 04:27:00 PM
No, Fiorot is right.
Ooooooooooooh, total weight.
I was focusing on flour weight only. :-[
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 13, 2021, 04:28:27 PM
Add malt for help with browning.   Also for reference my local Pizzeria uses a 22 oz ball for the 18inch NY pie =which is 627 grams.

For these pies, what would be the appropriate amount of malt (grams)?
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: Peter B on February 13, 2021, 04:35:15 PM
No, Fiorot is right.
^^^

You need to include the water weight.

You probably want to be in the range of 1-2% sugar.  Your setup may not be giving enough top heat, so your pizza stone sandwich is a good idea.  How thick are the stones and how long are you preheating?  You will want to go at least an hour, and maybe more with a thicker stone.  Just because the stone measures a good temp on the surface, that does not mean it is heated through.

So - I would experiment with the sugar and if you have the malt, use it.  But I think sugar is sufficient.

If it is too elastic open the skin then let it rest for 15 minutes and open it again.  In other words let it relax for a while.

Skin = your dough.
If the dough is too cold when you go to stretch, it will be more of a challenge to stretch.  Think of hot yoga.  They heat up the room, so you are looser.  But if you tried to do yoga outside in the winter, you would be a lot more tense.  When you let it relax, it is continuing to come up to room temp, but the gluten strands are also relaxing which will help you open it up further.  Just be mindful to not go too far and tear it.
Hope that helps.
The Broz
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 13, 2021, 04:38:08 PM
How does one "open the skin"?
Do I poke holes with a knife?
Make a 1/2 incision along the length of the dough?
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: mkevenson on February 13, 2021, 07:28:43 PM
AtHomePizza, opening the skin is forming the dough ball into a circle that is the size of the pizza you intend to make. There are many methods and you need to find the one that feels comfortable. You can even use a rolling pin if you like, but the cornice will be flat which I believe is ok for NY style. there is a glossary of pizza terms used on this site. Might be helpful.
There are many youtube videos that show how to "open" a dough ball. Tony Gemignani has one that leaves the dough on the table, others show picking the dough up and stretching using the weight of the dough and gravity . Many options to try.


Mark
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: hammettjr on February 13, 2021, 08:00:27 PM
Top heat is a challenge with a grill. The few times I used a grill I was fortunate to be able to work around it by using extra heaters that were above the grate and designed to be used for rotisserie.

PS - I agree with QD's advice last week that having one dedicated thread would be helpful both for you and for us trying to help.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 14, 2021, 09:44:53 AM

PS - I agree with QD's advice last week that having one dedicated thread would be helpful both for you and for us trying to help.

It may be a few weeks before getting back to pizza making.
If I update an old thread with the latest pie results, how would one know its actually an update with new pie and results to be reviewed and not a general update to an old thread.
On most message boards, threads tend to die and get less feedback as they age.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: hammettjr on February 14, 2021, 09:57:44 AM
People here are very attentive..we click the "new" button shown below to read new posts and answer questions from the new posts.

My thread is 85 pages and still generates discussion when I post something new. But a better example is the Greek thread where we continue to have discussion based on new posts - and the thread was started by the founder of the board way back in 2004.

Edit: 2 reasons why I suggest this: 1) it'll give you a place to track your progress and 2) its gives us background on what you've tried and info you've already received.  For example, in my post to you I commented that top heat is a challenge for grills. But I have no idea whether you've already discussed that.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: quietdesperation on February 15, 2021, 12:55:56 PM
i made the same point about top heat in opís last post. i also asked the same question fiorot asked about dough process. and i posted links to mattís long running thread and others so the op has a perspective on how that works.

for me, the idea of a new thread every week where we all cover the points already made in opís past threads is unworkable. personally, iíd rather spend my time more efficiently helping others.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: piesofsatan on February 15, 2021, 01:58:50 PM
Please, please make your own personal thread instead of a new thread each bake. A new thread each bake just makes the board cluttered.


Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 15, 2021, 02:40:34 PM
ok, ok, point well taken.  :chef:

I didn't plan on cooking again for a few weeks but based on replies on my other threads along with this thread I am eager to test out some things.

If I do, I will definitely make any updates to this thread, but have been posting new threads for any stand-alone, generic general questions.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: hammettjr on February 15, 2021, 02:59:41 PM

I didn't plan on cooking again for a few weeks but based on replies on my other threads along with this thread I am eager to test out some things.


I'd warn you that it's easy to get sucked into this hobby. But it looks like I may be too late, you're one of us now  :)

Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: jkb on February 15, 2021, 03:42:46 PM
The grill is tough for top heat.  In the past, I would grill in the summer when I didn't want to heat up the kitchen.   I'd grill the dough, flip and top it, and then finish it under the broiler when the bottom was done.  One could argue it was more of a flatbread, certainly not NY.  My favorite iteration was lamb loin carpaccio, feta, kalamata olives, thyme and white truffle oil.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: Fiorot on February 15, 2021, 06:33:26 PM
My favorite iteration was lamb loin carpaccio, feta, kalamata olives, thyme and white truffle oil.
Now that is an amazing iteration !!!
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 20, 2021, 12:31:51 PM
I was supposed to take off from pizza making this weekend but eager to give it another try.

Only made 1 pie today.

Ingredients used for Pie 1 from last weekend.
00 Flour          205g
Regular Flour   100g
Water             186g
Suger               6g
Yeast                 1g
Salt                 5g
Oil                   9g

Per recommendations, the only change was to switch the amount of regular flour and 00 flour.
As a result, basically all my questions will be inquiring on if the results are purely due to changing the flour.  ;D

Ingredients used for this weeks pie.
00 Flour          100g
Regular Flour   205g
Water             186g
Suger               6g
Yeast                 1g
Salt                 5g
Oil                   9g

Dough
Same process as last week.
Made dough, placed in bowl after rubbing oil on it.
Covered entire bowl in tin foil and left on the counter for an hour before placing in the frig overnight.
About 12 hours in the frig and on the counter 2 hours prior to making the pie.

Pie Making
Last week, this dough was difficult to work with when making the pie.
It took a lot of work and had a lot of elasticity as the dough was very dense.
At first I thought it was going to be the same, but the dough actually did most of the work itself this week.
Simply rotating the dough in my hands and it stretched itself out nicely into a pie.

QUESTION : Would simply changing the flouring type be the reasoning for the dough to stretch some much easier?

The dough stretched itself out so much it was actually too large. As a result, I took the pie cutter and cut off about 1 inch of the outer edge of the pizza which obviously affected the crust portion.

Cooking
The pizza cooked for 10 minutes at 550.
The biggest issue for me is that the crust was always cooking faster than the top, but for some reason, the top seem to cook faster than the dough.

QUESTION : Once again, would simply changing the flouring type be the reasoning for the dough to take longer to cook?

Crust/Taste
The good news is I came the closest to producing a NY Style pie based purely on the crust being much thinner than I have previously accomplished.
The bad news the crust was underdone and wasn't very good tasting. In fact, I usually keep the remaining pizza to eat later in the day or the next day but today I just tossed what ever was left over.
Granted the crust on the edge did not rise but that is purely due to me cutting the edge off to decrease the size of the pie.

QUESTION : And once again, would simply changing the flouring type be the reasoning for the dough to be so flat?

Concerns
If you compare pictures to the dough prior to making the pie from last week, you will see that this week the dough barely expanded and the counter, frig and prep time were the same.

QUESTION : When it comes the dough expanding overnight, is this purely a yeast thing or does the type of flour have any affect?

QUESTION : For the next test, should I make the 00 Flour and Regular flour more of a 50/50 mix?

8 Pictures uploaded.
1 - dough once mixing was done.
2 - dough right before making the pie.
3 - dough made into pie
4 - after cutting off 1 inch
5 - before being cooked.
6 - after being cooked.
7 - very very very flat dough (too flat)
8 - under cooked crust, but had to remove as the top was getting too done.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: Peter B on February 20, 2021, 01:35:36 PM
This is an amateur guess, but I don't think your dough fermented nearly enough.  That would be what I look at in your recipe.  You are not using much more yeast than I am, and I am fermenting about 5 times as long as you are.  Some other things you can note for the group are the temp of the water you use (I measure mine and then let it sit to come to RT for an hour or so), and the dough temp when you are done mixing it (I have had good luck with temps in the high 60's to low 70s). 

IIRC - this time you had the dough out of the fridge for significantly longer than before.  This will allow you to stretch it much more easily.  Overstretching is something that happens to all of us.  There is a huge element of practice in this process to just get a feel for how you want to stretch.  For example - I do not let my dough drape very high off the surface anymore, but I am more aggressive in stretching with my hands and am noticing what thin spots feel like and where I can afford to stretch more.  Also - experimentation with your particular oven is something a lot of us have to do.  Were you using your grill again, or was this in an oven?  How long were your stones preheated?

I don't use 00 flour, so I am no help there.  When you say 'regular flour', what does that mean?
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: quietdesperation on February 20, 2021, 01:42:00 PM
thank you for using one thread here are some suggestions:
- start using and posting bakers percentages
- stop using 00 flour, itís almost never used in ny pies
- be more specific with your flour: dont use the term ďregular flourĒ, post brand and type.
for example kabf or gm ap. each flour has different protein levels and absorption rates.
- post the thickness factor from the dough calculator
- specify if you are using idy, ady or fresh yeast
- take a photo for us of the bottom of your dough container so we can have a better view of fermentation (we look at bubbles). use a clear container if necessary.

sorry, where is your heat source in relation to your pizza, under or over?
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: piesofsatan on February 20, 2021, 04:07:38 PM
Biggest thing Iím noticing here is that the pizza in general looks entirely undercooked, barely much of a melt going on, and a Pale underside. Was this baked with your grill? Have you considered using a stone or steel in your home oven? Grill is tough if you canít get the top heat right.

How long did you preheat the grill for? Did you use an IR thermometer to check your stone temp? 10 minutes at 550F should be plenty but this is noticeably undercooked in my opinion.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 20, 2021, 04:26:34 PM
This is an amateur guess, but I don't think your dough fermented nearly enough.  That would be what I look at in your recipe.  You are not using much more yeast than I am, and I am fermenting about 5 times as long as you are.  Some other things you can note for the group are the temp of the water you use (I measure mine and then let it sit to come to RT for an hour or so), and the dough temp when you are done mixing it (I have had good luck with temps in the high 60's to low 70s). 

IIRC - this time you had the dough out of the fridge for significantly longer than before.  This will allow you to stretch it much more easily.  Overstretching is something that happens to all of us.  There is a huge element of practice in this process to just get a feel for how you want to stretch.  For example - I do not let my dough drape very high off the surface anymore, but I am more aggressive in stretching with my hands and am noticing what thin spots feel like and where I can afford to stretch more.  Also - experimentation with your particular oven is something a lot of us have to do.  Were you using your grill again, or was this in an oven?  How long were your stones preheated?

I don't use 00 flour, so I am no help there.  When you say 'regular flour', what does that mean?

I have been pretty consistent with doing the dough Friday nights and removing an 2 or so hours before cooking.

What is the optimum time prior to making the pie should it be removed from the refrigerator?
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 20, 2021, 04:32:21 PM
thank you for using one thread here are some suggestions:
- start using and posting bakers percentages
- stop using 00 flour, itís almost never used in ny pies
- be more specific with your flour: dont use the term ďregular flourĒ, post brand and type.
for example kabf or gm ap. each flour has different protein levels and absorption rates.
- post the thickness factor from the dough calculator
- specify if you are using idy, ady or fresh yeast
- take a photo for us of the bottom of your dough container so we can have a better view of fermentation (we look at bubbles). use a clear container if necessary.

sorry, where is your heat source in relation to your pizza, under or over?

IIRC, the recipe used is based on a .09??????
I will say the 00 flour worked great for the thick fluffy pizza, but not NY Style.
Are you saying not to use 00 flour ever or only for NY Style pizza?

The "regular flour" is the Publix All Purpose Flour.

The yeast is Fleischmann's Active Dry yeast (from the jar).

I was going to include an image of the bottom of the dough in the bowl but could only post 8 pictures.
The other reason is because the bottom looked exactly like the top. No visible bubbles.

Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 20, 2021, 04:33:27 PM
Biggest thing Iím noticing here is that the pizza in general looks entirely undercooked, barely much of a melt going on, and a Pale underside. Was this baked with your grill? Have you considered using a stone or steel in your home oven? Grill is tough if you canít get the top heat right.

How long did you preheat the grill for? Did you use an IR thermometer to check your stone temp? 10 minutes at 550F should be plenty but this is noticeably undercooked in my opinion.

Have been using the grill with a stone, but since last week, started using a cookie sheet on top to help cook the top.

The strange issue is that 9minutes to 9.5 minutes would be the max for the bottom of the pie to cook and the top a bit undercooked.
This is the first time using this large of a non 00 flour ration and for some reason the top cook quicker than the bottom this time.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: quietdesperation on February 20, 2021, 05:30:43 PM
IIRC, the recipe used is based on a .09??????
I will say the 00 flour worked great for the thick fluffy pizza, but not NY Style.
Are you saying not to use 00 flour ever or only for NY Style pizza?

The "regular flour" is the Publix All Purpose Flour.

The yeast is Fleischmann's Active Dry yeast (from the jar).

I was going to include an image of the bottom of the dough in the bowl but could only post 8 pictures.
The other reason is because the bottom looked exactly like the top. No visible bubbles.


- 00 flour is most often used for Neapolitan pizza, at temps > 900 degrees. The vast majority of NY pizza uses high protein flour. A lot of us use King Arthur Bread Flour (KABF) which you'll find in publix.
- Most NY water percentage is 55-60%
- the forum's dough calculator has a share button near the top right. Click on it, choose "bbcode" and then paste into your post and it will have your Baker's percentages and TF. easy peasey.
- don't feel limited by the 8 photos per post, make two posts if need be.
-  lack of bubbles is a sign you're doing something incorrectly, the bottom of the container should have a lot of bubbles as a result of fermentation. Matt, do you have a photo? I don't want to run through your whole thread...actually, here's a random photo, it should look something like this:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30900.0

more questions:
- are you launching the pizza right on to the stone or using a pan or screen?
- are you preheating stone? if so, how long?
- it's odd, with heat at bottom, I'd think bottom would cook first. do you have an infrared gun to measure Stone temp? a lot of us have something like this:
https://www.amazon.com/Etekcity-Lasergrip-774-Non-contact-Thermometer/dp/B00837ZGRY/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=3EDCCRDDW0NUW&dchild=1&keywords=infrared+temperature+gun&qid=1613860740&sprefix=infrared+temp%2Caps%2C236&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUE0S0RUSlMxRTU3RTAmZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTAzNDQxMzcySjRBSzZXTkxXMlVHJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTAxNjc3NDUxT0FJWTJIWk9HMkJQJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

unfortunately, the price rose quite a bit during the pandemic.






 
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: Fiorot on February 21, 2021, 12:04:46 PM
How about not making a culture with Active Dry Yeast? 
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 21, 2021, 04:58:43 PM
more questions:
- are you launching the pizza right on to the stone or using a pan or screen?
- are you preheating stone? if so, how long?
- it's odd, with heat at bottom, I'd think bottom would cook first. do you have an infrared gun to measure Stone temp? a lot of us have something like this:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00837ZGRY/?tag=pmak-20

Pizza gets placed right on the stone.
Once the grill hit 550 I usually put on the pie, but I guess just because the grill temp is 550 doesn't mean the stone is.
Will order that gun and verify for next week.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: quietdesperation on February 21, 2021, 05:03:15 PM
How about not making a culture with Active Dry Yeast?

why would that matter?
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: 02ebz06 on February 21, 2021, 05:32:55 PM
Pizza gets placed right on the stone.
Once the grill hit 550 I usually put on the pie, but I guess just because the grill temp is 550 doesn't mean the stone is.
Will order that gun and verify for next week.

Usually need about an hour to get a stone up to temp.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: hammettjr on February 21, 2021, 05:48:24 PM
Usually need about an hour to get a stone up to temp.

In the kitchen, yes, but it may be significantly faster on his grill.

Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: 02ebz06 on February 21, 2021, 06:17:18 PM
In the kitchen, yes, but it may be significantly faster on his grill.

Guess I never checked stone temp when making pizza on my grill.  Always just waited an hour.
I'll try to remember to check next time I make bread.  We make all our bread on the grill.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: quietdesperation on February 21, 2021, 06:20:24 PM
op, if you really have no bubbles at bottom of container, maybe your ady is dead? when did u buy it, how do you store it and are you activating it?
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 21, 2021, 08:37:24 PM
op, if you really have no bubbles at bottom of container, maybe your ady is dead? when did u buy it, how do you store it and are you activating it?

This is why I used to always buy the packages, but it was getting expensive as I use so little.
It is from the jar and at the max, 2 months old.
The jar is stored is the spice draw so it doesn't get any daylight.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 21, 2021, 08:40:55 PM
I think the issue with this week's pizza being uncooked is clearly based on the stone not being hot enough.

The temp gun should be here by the next weekend.

With how easily the dough was stretched and how nice and flat the pie was I believe I am very close.

The big question right now where is the fluffiness and why basically no rise.

The change from last weekend to this was the type of dough.
Also, we know the uncooked issue was a user error.

Since I, want to try changing 1 thing at a time, what should be the next thing to try for next weekend?
The focus should be to get some rise out of the dough.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: gbakay on February 22, 2021, 07:37:47 AM
Here's my procedure when using a rolling pin, gently roll the dough to the shape you want, if the dough is still too small hand stretch it the the correct size. Then I cover the dough and let it rise a little while the oven is heating up usually 30 mins. After the 30 mins I remove the cover from the dough, I use a screen and place the dough on the screen. That way I could shape the dough to the size of the screen. See Photos.

Your water at 61% is correct, but your yeast in my opinion is too low, try 0.375%. Also oil also effects the rise to a small degree, you may want to drop that down to 2%. Your oven temperature is correct to bake the pizza at 550F for 10 minutes and that's what I use but my bake time is 8 minutes, you can see the browning in the photos.

George
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 22, 2021, 07:58:52 AM
Here's my procedure when using a rolling pin, gently roll the dough to the shape you want, if the dough is still too small hand stretch it the the correct size. Then I cover the dough and let it rise a little while the oven is heating up usually 30 mins. After the 30 mins I remove the cover from the dough, I use a screen and place the dough on the screen. That way I could shape the dough to the size of the screen. See Photos.

Your water at 61% is correct, but your yeast in my opinion is too low, try 0.375%. Also oil also effects the rise to a small degree, you may want to drop that down to 2%. Your oven temperature is correct to bake the pizza at 550F for 10 minutes and that's what I use but my bake time is 8 minutes, you can see the browning in the photos.

George

Nice looking crust. That is my objective.

How important is the screen?
I thought the stone was the key to getting a nice crispy crust.

I notice if I let my pie sit after stretching, it becomes very tacky and ends up sticking to the peel unless a significant amount of corn meal is used to allow it to slide off.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: Fiorot on February 22, 2021, 02:34:42 PM
why would that matter?
Well he is not using IDY and my understanding the ADY needs to be hydrated for about 10 minutes with a bit of sugar.  And doing so would show whether the yeast was viable or not.   Floating Yeast is Dead Yeast. 
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 22, 2021, 04:08:18 PM
I thought the ADY was preferred over the IDY.  <---Look at me using acronyms like pro.

What is the general consensus on the boards here?
Is it similar to the type of flour used and which yeast is base upon why type of pie is being made?
ADY or IDY?
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: gbakay on February 22, 2021, 04:32:52 PM
I thought the ADY was preferred over the IDY.  <---Look at me using acronyms like pro.

What is the general consensus on the boards here?
Is it similar to the type of flour used and which yeast is base upon why type of pie is being made?
ADY or IDY?

Some members on this board use ADY, some use cake yeast and I think more use IDY. It's the easiest yeast to use just mix it with the dry flour.
Basically up to you, I've never used cake yeast but with the small amount of pizzas I make the yeast would go bad before I use all of it. I tried
both ADY and IDY and taste very little difference in the crust when used.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: Peter B on February 22, 2021, 06:10:05 PM
One vote for IDY here.  I just found that recipes tended to call for IDY more often, and I liked that I could just dump it in with the flour or in the water - I didn't have to treat it special.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: piesofsatan on February 22, 2021, 09:07:04 PM
IDY here because it was what I started with and like the others have said its quite easy to just mix in with the dry ingredients as opposed to having to proof it first.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: Fiorot on February 22, 2021, 10:08:07 PM
I still build a culture even with IDY.  I add the yeast ,all the sugar and let it go for 10 minutes with water warmed to 100 degrees.   A great way to tell viability of your yeast.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 23, 2021, 04:12:50 AM
If using the IDY, are you still bothering making the night before (or longer)??
Also, when using IDY, do you bother inspecting for air pockets via the bottom of the bowl?
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: Fiorot on February 23, 2021, 12:33:14 PM
If using the IDY, are you still bothering making the night before (or longer)??
Also, when using IDY, do you bother inspecting for air pockets via the bottom of the bowl?
I assume "the night before" means using the dough the same day.   IDY and ADY act the same way when the yeast develops the colony. There is no real time difference.  You can always look at the bottom of the bowl but by the huge rise in the bowl that is really not necessary.  If you want things to go quickly, heat all the water to 100 degrees and heat the mixer bowl too.  Then add all the yeast and sugar.  wisk it up and wait 10 minutes , you should see a nice foam developing.  Then slowly add the mixture of Flour, malt if using, and salt slowly a cup at a time with 2 minute intervals,  adding oil towards the end. Mix after that for 10 minutes.  Keep out to use in 8 hours or put in the fridge for the next day.   You do need to use about 4 grams of yeast for a 500 grm ball if you want fast results.   Some might call this an emergency dough but nevertheless it works just fine and great for a NY Pie as most Pizzerias use the same method.   Also if you want you can keep this dough in the fridge for 3-4 days if you want.  Then it will be very extensible, almost to easy.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 24, 2021, 06:37:04 AM
Then slowly add the mixture of Flour, malt if using, and salt slowly a cup at a time with 2 minute intervals,  adding oil towards the end. Mix after that for 10 minutes.

Wow, my entire mixing time is probably 6-7 minutes.
I tried adding 1-2 cups first but it seems all the flour gets pushed to the wall and all that is mixing is the water and very little flour.
Even once it appears the bowl is clean and the dough seems to be just riding the blade around in circle I should continue to let it go?
What issue(s) does it cause by cutting the mixing time short like I have and when do I gain by letting it go longer?
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: Fiorot on February 24, 2021, 10:52:26 AM
What attachment are you using to mix?  and use a small spatula to scrape the sides of the bowl when mixing.  As for enough mixing time the issue is gluten development.  Your picture of the mixed dough looked lumpy to me.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 24, 2021, 10:56:16 AM
What attachment are you using to mix?  and use a small spatula to scrape the sides of the bowl when mixing.
The one that looks like a screw ???
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: Fiorot on February 24, 2021, 10:58:05 AM
I edited my last response.  My final 10 minutes is mixed on a higher speed where the dough falls off the hook
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: Pete-zza on February 24, 2021, 03:25:42 PM
Wow, my entire mixing time is probably 6-7 minutes.
I tried adding 1-2 cups first but it seems all the flour gets pushed to the wall and all that is mixing is the water and very little flour.
Even once it appears the bowl is clean and the dough seems to be just riding the blade around in circle I should continue to let it go?
What issue(s) does it cause by cutting the mixing time short like I have and when do I gain by letting it go longer?
AtHomePizza,

I don't believe you mentioned the brand or model of mixer you are using. I have a KitcheAid stand mixer that also has a flat beater attachment in addition to a C-hook and I often start with the flat beater attachment and follow that with the C-hook. I have discussed this method many times on the forum but here is a typical post in which I give details:

Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=55558.msg558983;topicseen#msg558983

Peter
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 25, 2021, 06:45:30 PM
Here are my ingredients for this weekend.
Posting here tonight as I tend to do the dough on Friday night.
Since I picked up some KA Flour and going to add Malt, want to ensure nothing else like water needs to change.
Picked up a heat gun too.
Will have more pictures and more detailed info.

Ingredients to use for this weeks pie.
KA Bread Flour (12.7%) : 205g
00 Flour                          100g     <----Still have a few bags and don't want it to go to waste. 8)
Water             186g
Sugar                 6g
Yeast                  1g
Salt                    5g
Malt                    2g
Oil                      9g

Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: Fiorot on February 25, 2021, 11:16:19 PM
Sorry and have to say,  You don't even have a mixing protocol and you are posting another recipe so close to the others I dare say is insignificant.
There a lot of very smart and experienced dudes here.  I would suggest you respond to the posts of those trying to help you instead of telling us what you are going to this weekend.  As we wait with baited breath.  ;D
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 26, 2021, 04:50:43 AM
Yes, the recipe is close to the others as I am attempting to make small changes.
When I first was reading the various posts, I was a bit surprised to see so many replies recommending what I thought to be insignificant changes like just changing flour type, or change hydration just 1-3% or even increasing/decreasing ingredients 1-2 grams.
One common theme is changing to a higher protein flour tends to require a slight change to the hydration and I did change the flour.
The more I read the more I found that these insignificant changes are very significant.
Even something as simple as adding 1-2 grams of malt which I am doing in addition to changing flour.
Now, I am trying to follow suit but yet considered insignificant.  ??? ??? ???
Oh well, I will continue posting to mimic other threads I read and hopefully others will see I am just attempting to learn about this exciting pizza making quest.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 26, 2021, 06:40:54 PM
Ingredients used for this weeks pie.
KA Bread Flour (12.7%) : 205g
00 Flour                          100g     <----Used left over 00 Flour to used it up.
Water             186g
Sugar                 6g
Yeast               .94g
Salt                    5g
Oil                      9g

Was going to add malt this week but read the KA flour and malt is already included.

Water and Sugar added together and microwaved.
Added yeast @ 126.3 degrees and let it sit for 8 minutes with period stirring.

Using the Kitchen Aid mixer and started with the flat beater and slowly added flour.
After about 7 minutes I switched to the dough hook to finish off the dough with the rest of the flour.
After another 2.5 minutes of mixting (see image), the oil was added.
3 more minutes of mixing and it was done (see 2 images).

12.5 total mixing time is close to twice my normal time and the dough did feel better/different but it could also be due to the new flour. ???

Oiled a bowl and placed the dough in and lightly coated the top. (see Image).

Check the image of the dough in the bowl. Is that too much oil?????

Attached images
1 - Water, Sugar and yeast after 8 minutes
2 - Image of dough after 9.5 minutes and right before oil was added.
3 & 4 - When dough was complete.
5 - Dough in bowl before covering completely with tinfoil and placing in the refrigerator until tomorrow.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: Fiorot on February 26, 2021, 07:20:08 PM
great now when taking out of the bowl Stretch and Fold the Ball about 10 times rotating the ball each time, coat with a bit of oil and put in tupperware     Now we are talking !!!!! look for a vid of stretch and fold
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: foreplease on February 26, 2021, 11:08:52 PM
Did your yeast survive 126.3į?
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: Fiorot on February 27, 2021, 12:50:37 AM
Did your yeast survive 126.3į?
Oh Crap !!!   I just saw this.!        95-102 is great.   110 yeast are not doing well   115 call the medical examiner.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 27, 2021, 04:03:47 AM
Did your yeast survive 126.3į?

Is that too hot ???
Are you able to tell from the image if still looks active or dead?
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: foreplease on February 27, 2021, 09:13:27 AM
Is that too hot ???
Are you able to tell from the image if still looks active or dead?
No, I am not able to tell but, yes, it seems way too hot.


How is it looking today?
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 27, 2021, 09:27:11 AM
How is it looking today?

Picture 1 - dough after mixing yesterday.
Picture 2 - dough after 12 hours in refrigerator and on counter about 90 minutes so far
Picture 3 - underside

Whats the verdict?
Expected rise in the dough? Did the yeast do its job?
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: Fiorot on February 27, 2021, 12:05:47 PM
From the view of the bottom of the bowl , I would say you got very lucky .   From the picture of the yeast in the water I am assuming you had sugar in there too.  And from that I would say not good .  It should be foamy not just milky looking.   From your pictures it is hard to tell the rise pr is it flat like a pancake.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 27, 2021, 01:18:32 PM
Quick recap of Ingredients used for this weeks pie.
KA Bread Flour (12.7%) : 205g
00 Flour                          100g     <----Used left over 00 Flour to used it up.
Water             186g
Sugar                 6g
Yeast               .94g
Salt                    5g
Oil                      9g

Dough
Grabbed the dough out of the bowl and and all started stretching out.
My first thought was "Damn, this is what happened last week when the pie came out so flat."
Thought maybe the bowl was coated with too much oil or the oil used on top was too much.
It was a becoming a mess quickly so (no idea of the technical term) folded the dough, pushed with the heel of my hand and did this a dozen of so times.
Some sort of metamorphosis of the dough occurred. It became a bit firmer with each fold and push.
Eventually the dough became very elastic and it took longer than usual to make it into a pie.

QUESTION : Who can explain the above and why it went from basically melting in my hand to very elastic? Is there an extra step I should be doing with the dough for which I am unaware? Is this fold and push part of the pre-pie ritual? I would always take from the bowl and start the pie formation.

Cooking
Last week the pie was under cooked because it was placed on the stone once the grill hit 550.
Since then I purchased one of those temperature guns and just out of curiosity when the grill hit 550 today I checked the temp of the stone and it was only 425. More than 100 degrees difference which explains a lot.

Today, the temperature gun confirmed just over 600 degrees. 

At 6 minutes I took a peek and the bottom looked done. Took it out for a closer look and thought let me toss it back in to get the top of the crust a bit more.
It was probably too late since it was already removed. Only kept it in for another 30 seconds.

Next time I may go to a full 7 minutes before checking as I think it would have helped the top without burning the bottom.

Cut/Taste
Running the pie slicer through the crust is always nice to hear a slight crunch.
This is the closest I have come to a NY Style pizza.
Both wife and I felt it was one of the better pies I have made.
Although the crust could have been a bit thinner, it was my thinnest to date.
Although the crust on the end wasn't brown, inspecting the inside and its one of the pies for me where the end crust is fully cooked.
The end did not taste undercooked. In fact, it was light and fluffy and a slight crunch on the bottom. This is actually one of the better crusts to date as well.

Since I am still experimenting, this week was a simply plain cheese pie instead of all the toppings I have been using.

8 Pictures Uploaded
1 - Not so round pie
2 - Not as deep as wide, but neither is my stone.
3 - Nice 600 degrees
4 - Results after about 6 minutes.
5 - Bottom of pie
6 - Crust is fully cooked and pretty thin slice.
7 - Another image of the crust.
8 - Could be a bit thinner, but extremely happy with today's results.

What next?
Will decrease water temperature before adding yeast.

Wish List
Would like to get the crust just a bit thinner. (not the end part)
Would like to get the end crust a bit more brown on top.

Summary
If I were stuck with this pie each weekend I would be very happy as it most definitely was my best, but am always looking to improve.
Thanks to all who have contributed.  ;)
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: Fiorot on February 27, 2021, 02:13:05 PM
much improved.  Too Much cheese?  How much did you use.   Cheese could have cooked more and the conicone would be darker.  But for NY you should not have a cornicone that huge.  But maybe you like that part of it when you eat it.  The bottom was perfect.    You should not be stretching and folding before you make the pie.  You do that after you take it out of the mixer.   
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: hammettjr on February 27, 2021, 02:59:55 PM
Nice job, much better!

I don't remember, do you have the option to bake inside a kitchen oven? Top heat in the grill is tough.

Any chance you took the temp of the underside of your upper stone? Just a thought, I never tried this, but if the upper stone isn't getting heat, maybe you could pre-heat with the upper stone only, then add the lower stone and preheat that. It's a bunch of steps, but the grill may require creativity.

Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 27, 2021, 03:04:12 PM
Too Much cheese?  How much did you use.   
I use 8oz when I make these pies.

Cheese could have cooked more and the conicone would be darker. 
Never new there was an official word for that curst. :P

But for NY you should not have a cornicone that huge.  But maybe you like that part of it when you eat it. 

I agree it should not be that large, but my wife and I actually really liked. Still wouln't mind if it were a tad bit smaller, but pleasantly surprised with it.


You should not be stretching and folding before you make the pie. 

My concern is that the dough was stretching out faster than I could control it but will keep that in mind next time.
I think the conicone would definitely not have been so large if I did that.

Can you explain what occurs to the dough by doing what I did?
I would like to understand what happened.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 27, 2021, 03:07:45 PM
Nice job, much better!

I don't remember, do you have the option to bake inside a kitchen oven? Top heat in the grill is tough.

Any chance you took the temp of the underside of your upper stone? Just a thought, I never tried this, but if the upper stone isn't getting heat, maybe you could pre-heat with the upper stone only, then add the lower stone and preheat that. It's a bunch of steps, but the grill may require creativity.

The upper is actually a stainless steel cookie sheet.

Two concerns with that.
1 - If I cooked the upper first then inserted the lower stone, I suspect by the time the lower stone gets heated up, the upper would have come back down significant in temperature.

2 - If I cooked the upper first then inserted the lower stone, I thought stones have the potential to crack if heated too quickly.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: hammettjr on February 27, 2021, 03:14:17 PM
The upper is actually a stainless steel cookie sheet.

Two concerns with that.
1 - If I cooked the upper first then inserted the lower stone, I suspect by the time the lower stone gets heated up, the upper would have come back down significant in temperature.

2 - If I cooked the upper first then inserted the lower stone, I thought stones have the potential to crack if heated too quickly.

If #1 is a problem it would prove that what you're currently doing isn't working for the upper. Though I didn't realize it was a cookie sheet.

I dont think #2 is an issue. Maybe if the stone is cold, but in Florida I don't think that'd be an issue. I've blasted my stone with the Blackstone (which is basically a blowtorch) and never had a problem.

I agree letting it cook longer could only help. If needed you could drop the stone temp a bit to let it go longer.

Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 27, 2021, 03:22:44 PM

I agree letting it cook longer could only help. If needed you could drop the stone temp a bit to let it go longer.

Today's temp was 600.
What would be the recommended temp?
Would 500 be too low or just drop 50 degrees at a time?
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: hammettjr on February 27, 2021, 03:35:24 PM
Comes down to preference, but I like 500 myself. It's not too low.

Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: Pete-zza on February 27, 2021, 03:35:38 PM
Quick recap of Ingredients used for this weeks pie.
KA Bread Flour (12.7%) : 205g
00 Flour                          100g     <----Used left over 00 Flour to used it up.
Water             186g
Sugar                 6g
Yeast               .94g
Salt                    5g
Oil                      9g

Dough
Grabbed the dough out of the bowl and and all started stretching out.
My first thought was "Damn, this is what happened last week when the pie came out so flat."
Thought maybe the bowl was coated with too much oil or the oil used on top was too much.
It was a becoming a mess quickly so (no idea of the technical term) folded the dough, pushed with the heel of my hand and did this a dozen of so times.
Some sort of metamorphosis of the dough occurred. It became a bit firmer with each fold and push.
Eventually the dough became very elastic and it took longer than usual to make it into a pie.

QUESTION : Who can explain the above and why it went from basically melting in my hand to very elastic? Is there an extra step I should be doing with the dough for which I am unaware? Is this fold and push part of the pre-pie ritual? I would always take from the bowl and start the pie formation.
AtHomePizza,

Can you clarify something for me?  When you reworked the dough (about a dozen times or so) was that just before you used it to make the pizza?

Peter
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 27, 2021, 04:17:25 PM
AtHomePizza,

Can you clarify something for me?  When you reworked the dough (about a dozen times or so) was that just before you used it to make the pizza?

Peter

Yes, because when I first pulled it out of the bowl and held it in my hand it was like it was melting and dripping down the sides of my hand <---slight exaggeration but you get the picture.
Tried holding up the dough by the edge but it was stretching out so quickly I couldn't move the dough fast enough.
It was a mess so I rolled it all back in a ball and "reworked the dough" after which it became very elastic and now I had to work extra hard to get it stretched out.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: Fiorot on February 27, 2021, 04:34:57 PM
8 oz is plenty for a 16 inch pie.  Dough Ball was correct for a NY 16 inch pie but you did not stretch it to that size with the conicone you like, so it appears to me a bit too much cheese.  You should see some sauce in between not just a solid layer of cheese.  But hey if you like a lot of cheese go for it.   So to me sometimes you try to recreate a certain type of pizza , in this case NY, and in other cases you make a pie you like to eat and not worry too much about recreating.    I have spent 4 years here reading, questioning , learning and trying all sorts of suggestions. I now am very comfortable making a NY Pie.  If you are serious about a recreation then that takes lots of time studying and attempts.   Here is a picture of my  Neapolitan Pie made for the first time last month.     
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: Pete-zza on February 27, 2021, 04:53:15 PM
Yes, because when I first pulled it out of the bowl and held it in my hand it was like it was melting and dripping down the sides of my hand <---slight exaggeration but you get the picture.
Tried holding up the dough by the edge but it was stretching out so quickly I couldn't move the dough fast enough.
It was a mess so I rolled it all back in a ball and "reworked the dough" after which it became very elastic and now I had to work extra hard to get it stretched out.
AtHomePizza,

What you experienced is a classic rookie mistake. When you reworked the dough, you toughened the gluten structure and that made the dough elastic and hard to form into a skin. The proper approach is to let the dough relax for a few hours AT room temperature before attempting to use the dough to make a pizza. That method is called tempering the dough. Technically, according to the late Tom Lehmann, the temperature of the dough should be around 50-55F but he allowed for a higher temperature in a home setting, such as 60F. In extreme cases, the temper time might be around four or five hours but around 2-3 hours is quite common.

Here are some posts by Tom on the subject:

Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14600.msg145534;topicseen#msg145534

Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14407.msg144862#msg144862

Reply 5 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=61025.msg610038#msg610038

Reply 19 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=60027.msg603656#msg603656

You will note that I capitalized AT in my comments above. That is something that Tom did very often. For example, when I did a search of Tom's posts today, I found that Tom capitalized AT seventy-five times out of a hundred posts where he use the expression "temper at room temperature". The real number is actually higher because the forum's search function cut off the number of posts at one hundred. The reason why Tom capitalized AT so many times was because a lot of people would let their dough temper TO room temperature. That would typically make the dough too extensible (overly stretchy) and difficult to handle.

Peter
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 27, 2021, 05:15:13 PM
AtHomePizza,

What you experienced is a classic rookie mistake. When you reworked the dough, you toughened the gluten structure and that made the dough elastic and hard to form into a skin. The proper approach is to let the dough relax for a few hours AT room temperature before attempting to use the dough to make a pizza. That method is called tempering the dough. Technically, according to the late Tom Lehmann, the temperature of the dough should be around 50-55F but he allowed for a higher temperature in a home setting, such as 60F. In extreme cases, the temper time might be around four or five hours but around 2-3 hours is quite common.

Here are some posts by Tom on the subject:

Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14600.msg145534;topicseen#msg145534

Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14407.msg144862#msg144862

Reply 5 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=61025.msg610038#msg610038

Reply 19 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=60027.msg603656#msg603656

You will note that I capitalized AT in my comments above. That is something that Tom did very often. For example, when I did a search of Tom's posts today, I found that Tom capitalized AT seventy-five times out of a hundred posts where he use the expression "temper at room temperature". The real number is actually higher because the forum's search function cut off the number of posts at one hundred. The reason why Tom capitalized AT so many times was because a lot of people would let their dough temper TO room temperature. That would typically make the dough too extensible (overly stretchy) and difficult to handle.

Peter

Thanks for the explanation.
Will monitor the dough ball temperature next time.
Today it was out 3 hours prior to pizza making in a house @77 degrees.
Can anyone calculate temperature loss to estimate the dough ball temp?? 8)

The following did catch me by surprise as I would have expected the warmer it got the easier it was to stretch.

...just remember that the higher the dough temperature the more difficult it can be to open if you are not proficient at opening a dough ball into a skin.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: hammettjr on February 27, 2021, 05:33:49 PM
Took me a while to learn about at RT vs to RT.

My dough sits out only 45 minutes in a 69 degree house and it becomes 51 degrees and opens nicely.

Note that you're getting a good amount of fermentation in those 3 hours. So when you reduce the warm up time you may need more yeast. Gotta love all the variables!

Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on February 27, 2021, 07:29:13 PM
When the dough sort of stretches itself out, is that a good sign or bad sign?
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: hammettjr on February 27, 2021, 07:31:05 PM
It's not ideal. If you don't let it get so warm it'll let you stretch it. That way you have control over the size (and can avoid thin spots).

Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: sal951 on February 28, 2021, 10:20:23 PM
When the dough sort of stretches itself out, is that a good sign or bad sign?

If you mean when it sort of widens more like a disc while still in your container, it's not something to worry about. I've found it does that far more on the higher hydration doughs I make (behaves more like a liquid the more liquid is incorporated - go figure). Usually when I take my dough out of its container and get it ready for stretching, it's essentially in a thick disc shape after a 4 or so day cold ferment and resting on the counter at room temp for maybe 2 hours. When I prep my dough to stretch, I rub a decent layer of flour on the work bench I use, and plop it down on top. I then sprinkle a dusting of flour on the top and rub it in a bit, since I find after having let it sit, there is a good amount of moisture still there. I don't drown it in flour while stretching, but just enough that it doesn't feel wet and sticky while I push down, flip, and shape/stretch.

If you mean stretching itself out, like very little effort is needed to get it to stretch (doing whatever technique) then no, it's not necessarily a bad thing as long as it's elastic and strong enough to not tear, and you work gently enough to avoid doing so. There are many techniques which people will use to stretch, one of the simpler ones is holding it up, and turning it like a steering wheel while gravity stretches it for you. If you're working with a dough of 60% hydration or more it should respond pretty well to such a stretch. Lower hydration doughs you might have to be a bit rougher with it to get it to comply. If it's stretching so quickly all on its own that it's breaking itself apart or getting wider than you wanted or thinner in sections then it might be a problem, but it's probably more-so temperature related.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on March 01, 2021, 04:39:24 AM

If you mean stretching itself out, like very little effort is needed to get it to stretch (doing whatever technique) then no, it's not necessarily a bad thing as long as it's elastic and strong enough to not tear, and you work gently enough to avoid doing so. There are many techniques which people will use to stretch, one of the simpler ones is holding it up, and turning it like a steering wheel while gravity stretches it for you. If you're working with a dough of 60% hydration or more it should respond pretty well to such a stretch. Lower hydration doughs you might have to be a bit rougher with it to get it to comply. If it's stretching so quickly all on its own that it's breaking itself apart or getting wider than you wanted or thinner in sections then it might be a problem, but it's probably more-so temperature related.

Yes, its the 2nd part.
Even just removing it from the bowl and its like working with dough that is stretched to about 14 inches long, but it doesn't break.
It is great that it stretches so nicely but is a bit difficult trying to get a circle out of something so long.
Even if I try to get my entire hand under the dough in the bowl it still stretches itself out quickly.

I do plan on checking the temperature of the dough next time as I do have a food thermometer.
Instead of sitting out the 2-3 hours, maybe try 1 hour next time or even try it after taking it right out of the fridge to see how that works out.
Since my plan is to try with the same recipe but lower the grill temperature to get a more evenly cooked pie, it would be a good comparison.

Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: Fiorot on March 01, 2021, 03:11:16 PM
Yes, its the 2nd part.
Even just removing it from the bowl and its like working with dough that is stretched to about 14 inches long, but it doesn't break.
It is great that it stretches so nicely but is a bit difficult trying to get a circle out of something so long.
Even if I try to get my entire hand under the dough in the bowl it still stretches itself out quickly.


Turn the bowl upside down on your bench and it will remain round
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: sal951 on March 01, 2021, 10:54:21 PM
Yes, its the 2nd part.
Even just removing it from the bowl and its like working with dough that is stretched to about 14 inches long, but it doesn't break.
It is great that it stretches so nicely but is a bit difficult trying to get a circle out of something so long.
Even if I try to get my entire hand under the dough in the bowl it still stretches itself out quickly.

I do plan on checking the temperature of the dough next time as I do have a food thermometer.
Instead of sitting out the 2-3 hours, maybe try 1 hour next time or even try it after taking it right out of the fridge to see how that works out.
Since my plan is to try with the same recipe but lower the grill temperature to get a more evenly cooked pie, it would be a good comparison.

From the looks of it on your last recipe post, you're not using a crazy high hydration percentage. I'm not sure how it would essentially turn into a non-newtonian fluid just from room temperature and the ferment, so there's got to be something we're missing there. Try 1 hour after the fridge as you mentioned and if it isn't firmed up I'd be interested in how much oil you're adding to the container/ball when you set it in the fridge originally to ferment, as well as what your general technique is for pulling the dough ball out of the container.

In the meantime, as AtHomePizza suggested - maybe try just turning the dough straight out of the container onto your bench, getting some flour on it, and working it from there.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on March 06, 2021, 11:32:58 AM
Same recipe as last week. Change are to the process.
KA Bread Flour (12.7%) : 205g
00 Flour                          100g     <----Used left over 00 Flour to used it up.
Water             186g
Sugar                 6g
Yeast               .93g
Salt                    5g
Oil                      9g

Yeast was added @ 101 degrees for 7 minutes.

Dough
Mixed the dough at a slow rate. Added the oil around the 10 minute mark and mixed for 3 more minutes.
When finished, worked the dough with my hands another minute before placing in the bowl overnight.

5 Pictures uploaded
1 - The yeast after 7 minutes
2 - Dough at 10 minutes when oil added.
3 - Dough after working with hands 1 minute
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on March 06, 2021, 11:48:26 AM
Pizza making time.

Dough
Removed after 14 hours in the fridge.
Yeast appears to be more active than last week.

Stuck in a meat thermometer and waited until dough hit 54 degrees then started making the pie. It took about an hour to get to 54 degrees.
Once again, the dough stretched extremely easy.
It probably took less than 1 minute (probably even 30 seconds) to stretch it out to the size in the picture.

QUESTION :  Should I be concerned or even care or should I be happy that it takes less than a minute to get the dough into pie form?

Cooking
This week the pizza was cooked for 8 and 1/2 minutes @ 453.
The pizza cooked more evenly but the Cornicione still didn't brown as expected.

QUESTION :  Any recommends to get a bit more browning on the cornicione?

Cut/Taste
Nice crunch with the slicer.
To be honest, probably another 30 seconds on the stone would have been better.
Overall, the pie was excellent, but it had too much flour on the bottom. Usually flinging the dough back and forth to knock off excess flour but the dough was stretching too easily and couldn't really do it this time.
Although not brown, the cornicione had a nice flavor and texture.


5 Pictures uploaded
1 - Dough after 14 hours in the fridge.
2 - Yeast appears very active.
3 - Ready for the oven. Used just a tad less cheese this time.
4 - When first removed
5 - Crust
6 - Inside cornicione looks nice
7 - Overall fairly thin
8 - another crust image.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: hammettjr on March 06, 2021, 12:19:25 PM
Pizzerias get their pies stretched super fast. The question is whether the dough is stretching on you, causing major inconsistency in thickness across the pie. If not, then why worry. (Your slice shot looks very even.)

I'm partial to lower temp bakes, but 450 is real low. I do pan bakes at 460, but for over 15 minutes and that's with an upper heating element. You can try a broiler for top heat and see if you like it.

I like your approach, your making good progress.

Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: piesofsatan on March 06, 2021, 12:36:50 PM
Pizza making time.

Dough
Removed after 14 hours in the fridge.
Yeast appears to be more active than last week.

Stuck in a meat thermometer and waited until dough hit 54 degrees then started making the pie. It took about an hour to get to 54 degrees.
Once again, the dough stretched extremely easy.
It probably took less than 1 minute (probably even 30 seconds) to stretch it out to the size in the picture.

QUESTION :  Should I be concerned or even care or should I be happy that it takes less than a minute to get the dough into pie form?

Cooking
This week the pizza was cooked for 8 and 1/2 minutes @ 453.
The pizza cooked more evenly but the Cornicione still didn't brown as expected.

QUESTION :  Any recommends to get a bit more browning on the cornicione?

Cut/Taste
Nice crunch with the slicer.
To be honest, probably another 30 seconds on the stone would have been better.
Overall, the pie was excellent, but it had too much flour on the bottom. Usually flinging the dough back and forth to knock off excess flour but the dough was stretching too easily and couldn't really do it this time.
Although not brown, the cornicione had a nice flavor and texture.


5 Pictures uploaded
1 - Dough after 14 hours in the fridge.
2 - Yeast appears very active.
3 - Ready for the oven. Used just a tad less cheese this time.
4 - When first removed
5 - Crust
6 - Inside cornicione looks nice
7 - Overall fairly thin
8 - another crust image.

Are you forming your dough into a tight ball and closing the seam on the bottom before fermenting? The photo of your dough before ferment and after donít look properly balled, which could be why youíre finding your dough to stretch too quickly.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on March 06, 2021, 03:22:33 PM
Are you forming your dough into a tight ball and closing the seam on the bottom before fermenting? The photo of your dough before ferment and after donít look properly balled, which could be why youíre finding your dough to stretch too quickly.

Just searched and found this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZxNbL5XB7w&t=147s

Will add this step into the next test.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on April 10, 2021, 03:12:43 PM
Still been doing weekly pies but haven't posted much other that a few threads with general questions.

Today I have 2 similar yet different recipes mostly for testing and very interested to read feedback.

Similar recipe as previous weeks, but now 0 sugar and 2g of Malt.
KA Bread Flour (12.7%) : 205g
00 Flour                          100g     <----Still including 00 Flour as I am down to 1 bag left.
Water             186g
Sugar                 0g
Malt                 .2g
Active Dry Yeast  .8g
Salt                    5.6g
Oil                      9g

Malt & Yeast were added @ 100 degrees for 7 minutes.

QUESTION :  Check the images. How is the image showing the pockets of air after removing the dough from the frig. Just as expected? Too small? Not enough?

Mixing
 Currently using a shifter for the flour and pour it in 3 parts.

After Mixing
Fold the dough about a dozen times and place in the bowl covered with tin foil.
Previously I was storing it in an oiled bowl but lately have been placing it in the bowl only with light flour used and folding the dough.

Pizza making time.
Removed from frig about 15 hours later and about 30 minutes prior to making the pizza.
I can remove the dough from the bowl and make it into a pie within 30 seconds.

Comment :  Originally I was concerned about how soft the dough was and how easy it was to make into a pie.
Even watching the professionals at the pizza shop take 3-5 minutes to flatten the dough.
I have become grateful for how easily I can flatten out the dough.


Cooking
Stone temp at insertion : 574 degrees
Rotated the pie at 6 minutes
Added the screen under the pie at 9 minutes
Removed from oven at 11 minutes and 30 seconds
Stone temp at removal : 485 degrees.

Visual/Cut/Taste
One issue/concern has been the cornicione not getting brown, but the pies this weekend show improvements.
Cutting the pie and felt/heard a nice crunch not heard in previous pies.
Taste was very good.


Visual/Cut/Taste
1 - Dough from the frig
2 - Fermentation results.
3 - Getting ready for the oven/grill
4 - Fresh from the oven/grill
5 - cornicione
6 - crust
7 - bottom of crust

Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on April 10, 2021, 03:39:36 PM

One of my concerns have been how thick the crust was and would like to get it a bit thinner.

There are a couple of minor changes on this 2nd pie and it turned out better than expected.

Similar recipe as above. Using 0 sugar and 2g of Malt but also other changes.

KA Bread Flour (12.7%) : 305g    <----Trying 100% of this flour instead of incorporating the 00 flour
00 Flour                          0g     
Water             186g
Malt                 .2g
Active Dry Yeast  1.2g          <----Slightly more than above
Salt                    5.6g
Oil                      .5 tsp   <----Slightly less than above. Sorry not in grams

Malt & Yeast were added @ 100 degrees for 7 minutes.

QUESTION :  Check the images. How is the image showing the pockets of air after removing the dough from the frig. Just as expected? Too small? Not enough?

Mixing 
After Mixing
Pizza making time.
All same as above
In an attempt to get thinner pizza and avoid having to do any additional recalculation, I simply cut off part of the dough and tossed it. 

Cooking
Stone temp at insertion : 560 degrees
Rotated the pie at 9 mins and added the screen under the pie at 9 minutes (forgot to rotate until this time)
Removed from oven at 11 minutes
Stone temp at removal : 509 degrees.

Visual/Cut/Taste
One issue/concern has been the cornicione not getting brown, but the pies this weekend show improvements.
Cutting the pie and felt/heard a nice crunch not heard in previous pies.


Taste was very good and even better than the first.
The crust was slightly thinner than the first as well as the cornicione was slightly thinner.
This is more in line with what I was trying to do.


QUESTION :  Does it make sense that removing some dough did help with the slightly thinner pizza?

QUESTION :  By using 100% of the KA Bread Flour and 0% of the 00 Flour, what did that contribute to this pie? 

Visual/Cut/Taste
1 - Fermentation results.
2 - Getting ready for the oven/grill
3 - Fresh from the oven/grill
4 - bottom of crust
5 - cornicione
6 - nice thin crust

Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: Peter B on April 10, 2021, 08:25:02 PM
Is there any way that you can post your  bakerís percentages?
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on April 11, 2021, 01:40:17 PM
Is there any way that you can post your  bakerís percentages?

I did it for the recipe which turned out better.

KA Bread Flour (12.7%) : 305g   
Water                         186g
Malt                             .2g
Active Dry Yeast            1.2g         
Salt                                  5.6g
Oil                                    2.1g
               ============
                  Total      500.1 g
            
Flour       =   60.87%
Water   =    37.19%   
Malt       =   .03%
Yeast    =    .23%
Salt      =    1.11%
Oil      =    .42%
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: HansB on April 11, 2021, 01:49:37 PM
I did it for the recipe which turned out better.

KA Bread Flour (12.7%) : 305g   
Water                         186g
Malt                             .2g
Active Dry Yeast            1.2g         
Salt                                  5.6g
Oil                                    2.1g
               ============
                  Total      500.1 g
            
Flour       =   60.87%
Water   =    37.19%   
Malt       =   .03%
Yeast    =    .23%
Salt      =    1.11%
Oil      =    .42%

It's actually:

Flour    100%
Water    61%
Malt      .065%
Yeast     .4%
Salt       1.8%
Oil       .68%
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: AtHomePizza on April 11, 2021, 01:57:10 PM
It's actually:

Flour    100%
Water    61%
Malt      .065%
Yeast     .4%
Salt       1.8%
Oil       .68%

Percentages are based on flour and not entire weight?
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: sal951 on April 11, 2021, 02:11:54 PM
Percentages are based on flour and not entire weight?
Flour is always considered 100%, and everything else measured is in relation to its weight, i.e. if you had 1000g of flour and 600g of water your water weighs 60% of your flour weight, therefore is 60% hydration.

The idea is that you can scale your recipe very easily that way, since 37% of the total weight of ingredients requires more steps to figure out than 60% of the weight of the flour used.
Title: Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
Post by: HansB on April 11, 2021, 03:02:29 PM
Percentages are based on flour and not entire weight?

Yes.