Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => New York Style => Topic started by: husker3in4 on June 13, 2021, 02:02:18 AM

Title: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: husker3in4 on June 13, 2021, 02:02:18 AM
I have used King Arthur Sir Lancelot which was great, then it was just easier to buy the KA bread flour at walmart. Now I moved to a new city and a local food service store can order in the big bag for $22. But, they also carry All Trumps, Golden Tiger, Gold Medal  & Bouncer brand high gluten flour. All for around $22 for a big bag. All the same? Which one works best? I believe Im using a Tom's NY style pizza dough recipe.
Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on June 13, 2021, 04:53:44 AM
You have great choices...and a great store since so few will sell  a bag or two outside the trade.. you can't go wrong with All Trumps...but KASL is right there on top also.
Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: scott r on June 13, 2021, 08:43:19 AM
I have a feeling gold medal and all trumps will be the same flour.  There is no definitive gold medal flour... most of the General Mills flour bags say that on them including all trumps and many others.   Maybe one will be bromated and one will not, which will be nice because you can get the non bromated version (it will have green lettering on the bag rather than red).   That will be closes to what you are used to using.

I have never used golden tiger, and hummer is great, but I think in the end the only real difference you will find between all of these flours once you account for hydration is between unbromated and bromated versions.
Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: hammettjr on June 13, 2021, 11:29:55 AM
... I think in the end the only real difference you will find between all of these flours once you account for hydration is between unbromated and bromated versions.

Scott, do you notice a difference when using bromated? Some have said it doesn't make a difference (I've only used bromated for one bake), but I don't remember your view. It's so commonly used here that I tend to think there's a reason for it, but it could just have become a standard and no one is compelled to switch.

Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: scott r on June 13, 2021, 11:42:43 AM
oh yeah, there is definitely a difference!   I just don't find a difference between most brands of malted American flour with the same protein content once hydration levels are matched.

Maybe if you are hearing there is no difference between bromated and non bromated its with different mixing protocols for each type.   If mixed the same way side by side I think you will notice.
Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 13, 2021, 12:31:19 PM
I have a feeling gold medal and all trumps will be the same flour.  There is no definitive gold medal flour... most of the General Mills flour bags say that on them including all trumps and many others.   Maybe one will be bromated and one will not, which will be nice because you can get the non bromated version (it will have green lettering on the bag rather than red).   That will be closes to what you are used to using.

Scott,

You are correct that General Mills uses Gold Medal on a lot of its bags of flour, including All Trumps, as can be seen at:

https://www.generalmillscf.com/products/category/flour

Peter
Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: Elchimi on June 13, 2021, 01:01:19 PM
Iíve used KASL and all trumps unbromated/unbleached.
I still have to make the side by side test which one i like better (that will never happen...)
They are both great though.
Also Iím a big fan of Giustos high performer
Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on June 13, 2021, 01:42:13 PM
Scott...im just now getting unbromated versions based on supply..what should I be looking for vs bromated versions?
Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: hammettjr on June 13, 2021, 01:59:54 PM
Scott, can you elaborate a bit on the differences that bromate makes? I'm particularly interested in how it impacts the characteristics of the final crust. (I'd  like to understand if there are certain things I can't achieve with my unbromated KASL.)

Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on June 13, 2021, 02:33:19 PM
Matt...I wish I'd asked that so clearly... :-D 
Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: Pizza Shark on June 14, 2021, 06:24:53 PM
Gold Medal Full Strength for NYS pizza all the way.  There is no better in my opinion but, of course, others will disagree. It is a bromated flour.   
Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: Pizza_Not_War on June 14, 2021, 06:57:04 PM
It's not the flour, it's the baker.
Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: scott r on June 14, 2021, 07:03:51 PM
Scott, can you elaborate a bit on the differences that bromate makes? I'm particularly interested in how it impacts the characteristics of the final crust. (I'd  like to understand if there are certain things I can't achieve with my unbromated KASL.)


I see it as a mixing crutch.  It makes it easier to have great dough, but you can do it without the bromate.  In some ways it makes a planetary mixer produce a dough thats more similar to a spiral.  If heating up dough while mixing is a problem, bromate is a great friend because it will allow shorter mix times.  Its good for beginners just like commercial yeast is better for beginners rather than starting out with wild yeast.

Before I had a pizzeria I always used to keep some on hand for when I wanted to make sure I didn't mess up the dough.  Once I started selling pizza to people rather than just making it for myself and friends I ditched the bromate.   Every now and then I will consult for a pizzeria and I shoot out bromated flour again.  Most places are already using it and still somehow manage to screw up the dough :)
Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on June 14, 2021, 07:06:18 PM
Can't fully go with you on that one, PNW...skills are key but flour is a big factor. Of course any of them will make pizza, but the results vary a lot.



Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: Pizza_Not_War on June 14, 2021, 07:11:26 PM
Can't fully go with you on that one, PNW...skills are key but flour is a big factor. Of course any of them will make pizza, but the results vary a lot.
At the extremes I agree. But a lot of people on the board, especially newbies will chase different flour in the hopes that it will all of a sudden create the perfect pizza. A good baker can use different technics to get the best of any flour within a category. I'm not going to say that using a bleached cake flour will make a great NY pizza. Although for an expert, I'd bet they could do something special.

Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on June 15, 2021, 02:18:19 AM
Scott..re the bromate. I wasn't aware of the mixing issue. So especially with handmixing, more time is need for similar strength? That would explain some results thatvhave surprised with non-bromated flour.
Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: scott r on June 15, 2021, 07:52:33 AM
Yes bromate is a dough strengthener so you can mix less to get to the same place.
Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: Georgev on June 15, 2021, 09:03:52 AM
Yes bromate is a dough strengthener so you can mix less to get to the same place.
Scott this is very helpful. How long do you recommend mixing a 50 pound bag of flour in a Hobart 60 quart mixer? I have mastered all trumps like you said itís easy to. But for some reason when I try any King Arthur flours the taste is great just no real development in the dough and no oven spring really. Currently at a 11 minute mix time with all trumps. Do you think 13-14 would work better for a unbromated flour? All trumps is a great flour but I would like to get away from bleached bromated flours. 
Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: scott r on June 15, 2021, 09:58:25 AM
7-15 minutes is standard for bromated high gluten flours in a. 60qt, but most important is at what hydration. You could mix for 10 minutes up to 20 minutes with non bromated flour to try to match the bromated.  There are many factors though..it depends on where you are for hydration, when you ball the dough, how much salt, how much oil, how you ball, cold ferment or room temp ferment and how long etc etc. If your not seeing as much puff with non bromated with all else the same there are lots of things to get you more, mixing longer is one of them.

Most of the time I see non matching of hydration as the reason why people prefer one flour over the other.  One brand of flour with the same protein content as another brand can sometimes require 5 points different to be a true hydration match.  If hydration isn't properly matched you would need to do a much longer mix to get to the same amount of strength built into the doughs that feel wetter.
Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on June 15, 2021, 10:13:07 AM
That's a huge help to me , Scott. I've had to switch flours and have been scratching my head over why my numbers aren't getting me where I need to be.


So is it correct to say hydration is relative? If I really was happy with an artisan loaf at 80HR, then switch flour and needs to be at say, 75 to get absorption correct, then I can get similar results if protein level is the same?? 

















Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: scott r on June 15, 2021, 10:13:59 AM
Definitely, especially if both are non bromated or both are bromated.  Malt or enzyme amounts might need to be adjusted slightly, but usually not.   Most American flours in the all purpose to high gluten range are malted or amended with enzymes, so if you compare a non malted to malted flour that would be the other variable.

I have even taken American flours and Italian flours and with hydration adjustments made pretty much identical bread and pizza.

Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: 9slicePie on June 15, 2021, 10:41:24 AM
Once I started selling pizza to people rather than just making it for myself and friends I ditched the bromate.
Why?


All trumps is a great flour but I would like to get away from bleached bromated flours.
Same question.
Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: scott r on June 15, 2021, 10:53:02 AM
bromate is thought to be carcinogenic
Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on June 15, 2021, 11:13:30 AM
Thanks for the answer on the hydration, Scott.
It's asking questions like that one that shows my amateur status is intact :-[ :)
Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: 9slicePie on June 15, 2021, 11:40:01 AM
bromate is thought to be carcinogenic
Gotchya.

After the responses in the following thread and some googling, I've reached a point where I'll consume doughs made with bromated flour.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=69807.0
Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: Georgev on June 15, 2021, 12:06:01 PM
7-15 minutes is standard for bromated high gluten flours in a. 60qt, but most important is at what hydration. You could mix for 10 minutes up to 20 minutes with non bromated flour to try to match the bromated.  There are many factors though..it depends on where you are for hydration, when you ball the dough, how much salt, how much oil, how you ball, cold ferment or room temp ferment and how long etc etc. If your not seeing as much puff with non bromated with all else the same there are lots of things to get you more, mixing longer is one of them.

Most of the time I see non matching of hydration as the reason why people prefer one flour over the other.  One brand of flour with the same protein content as another brand can sometimes require 5 points different to be a true hydration match.  If hydration isn't properly matched you would need to do a much longer mix to get to the same amount of strength built into the doughs that feel wetter.
Wow Scott thank you so much. Currently at 62% hydration 2.5% salt no oil no sugar. Water goes in first then salt then flour idy yeast on top at about .33% idy. Mix for 10 mins put it on the counter let it rest for 10 mins cut, ball then into the box and cross stack in the walk-in for 30-45 mins. Final dough temp I shoot for is 70-78 max. Should I keep everything the same with say sir Galahad flour just add a 5 more mins of mixing?
Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: scott r on June 15, 2021, 12:30:26 PM
George, to add 5 minutes to your mix time you are going to want to start with colder water/maybe ice so that your finished dough temp is the same.  Hobarts heat up the dough a lot.   Another great option is to use the same mix time but add in some stretch and folds every 20 minutes after mixing until the dough feels nice and strong.  Of course you will have to drop down the yeast a bit since typically you are going right into the fridge, and now you are spending more time at room temp before going in.  The perfect amount of yeast will have to be found with experimentation, but I would start by decreasing by 15%.

A finished dough temp of 70-78 is a very wide range, Regardless of what flour you use I think you should hone that in to within 2-3 degrees max.  This will improve the predictability of your fermentation.

Also, if you are comparing bromated all trumps to sir galahad, that is going to give you a different product regardless of mix time.   All trumps is very high gluten (plus bromate makes it act even higher) while sir galahad is an all purpose flour.  With similar hydrations I doubt you could ever get the strength and ability to trap gas (or puff) from galahad that you can achieve with bromated all trumps, but you might prefer the tenderness of the galahad.   You might have better luck comparing King Arthur sir lancelot flour to all trumps since they are in a similar protein range.

Another thing that would help you to get your galahad closer to all trumps performance is balling later (doing bulk rise then form balls closer to when the dough is being used). 

Good luck!
Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: Pizza Shark on June 15, 2021, 07:56:28 PM
For the home pizza makers who are using a variety of flours and do a 48-72 hr CF and use a common KA mixer, I will tell you the #1 mistake many make is they over-knead the dough.  There is no need to knead the dough beyond the point that everything is fully incorporated, the sides of the mixing bowl are clean and enough time has passed kneading that you can stick your finger into it for perhaps 2 seconds and pull it away clean.  That's it.  The long CF will do all the rest for you.
 
Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: scott r on June 15, 2021, 09:15:44 PM
Im with you Pizza Shark.  Just about every countertop mixer builds strength in the dough faster than the large commercial planetary, fork, spiral, and diving arm mixers because the agitator is so much more frequently in contact with all parts of the dough.  About the only commercial mixer that builds gluten as fast as a home mixer is a VCM.  My biggest problem with home mixers is developing dough too fast, and that is why my famag (a popular countertop spiral) almost always stays at its slowest speed.   

Of course, there are many here that make doughs in the 70 plus hydration range, and for that a mixer that quickly builds gluten is a very good thing.
Title: Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
Post by: Pizza Shark on June 16, 2021, 07:47:17 PM
Im with you Pizza Shark.  Just about every countertop mixer builds strength in the dough faster than the large commercial planetary, fork, spiral, and diving arm mixers because the agitator is so much more frequently in contact with all parts of the dough.  About the only commercial mixer that builds gluten as fast as a home mixer is a VCM.  My biggest problem with home mixers is developing dough too fast, and that is why my famag (a popular countertop spiral) almost always stays at its slowest speed.   

Of course, there are many here that make doughs in the 70 plus hydration range, and for that a mixer that quickly builds gluten is a very good thing.

People also forget (or don't know) that a higher hydration dough as is commonly used for NYS is much stickier after kneading at room temp than it will be after a 48-72 HR CF in the fridge when it get's pulled for use.  When I pull my dough from the mixer I literally have to dance it in my hands while forming a ball for the CF so it doesn't stick to them.  Once fully fermented and cold and pulled for use, that crazy stickiness is gone.