Re: Evolution of the NY Style Pizza (Split Topic)

[invertedisdead]

"Allied Metal was established in 1945 by Michael Plotkin as a manufacturer of lighting fixtures. Coincident with the establishment of the company, a Sicilian immigrant named Andrew Virga developed what is generally regarded to be the first pizza crust in the United States. He brought this new-fangled dough product to his engineer friend Ira Nevins who was running one of the bomber engine plants for the U.S. Government to inquire if Nevins could produce an oven to bake the dough properly. In his basement, Nevins created the first Baker's Pride oven. Virga and Nevins then brought the dough and the oven to Plotkin to determine if he could produce a baking tray to be used in conjunction with Nevins' space age new oven. Plotkin met the challenge by developing the first pizza trays in the U.S. Plotkin, Virga and Nevins are credited with developing the first pizza concept in the U.S. and each of them subsequently focused their efforts on the development of their respective areas of expertise. Virga built one of the leading pizza dough manufactures, Nevins built the Bakers Pride Oven Company and Plotkin changed the focus of the young Allied Metal to the manufacture of pizza smallwares.

Plotkin quickly began to manufacture items for the developing pizza industry. Such items included pizza serving trays, pizza baking pans and screens, pizza cutters and numerous serving utensils. These products were originally distributed in the New York area where pizza was quick to take hold. As the concept was popularized throughout the U.S., Allied Metal's distribution became national in scope. Plotkin realized that he needed lo expand Allied's product line in order lo continue to grow and, as a result, he expanded into the manufacture of Asian cookware. Plotkin built the tooling for woks, steamers and lobster pans and sold these items initially throughout New York's Chinatown and ultimately lo customers throughout the U.S. Plotkin's daughter, Arlene Saunders, joined the company in 1970 and focused her efforts on building a cohesive and organized team of sales representatives throughout the U.S. She quickly became involved in marketing and new product development and, upon Plotkin's passing in 1984, inherited Allied Metal."

https://www.alliedpans.com/about/

[invertedisdead]

In the link that was provided yesterday vangelo (Vinnie) posted this. 

My cousin worked the summers of '63 and '64 in the NY distribution facility making tons of Pizza dough balls that were frozen and sent to the Pizza Plaza stores. He worked there with one of my dad's business partner's, (Louie Lamonica?). He remembers that my Grandmother would bring in Baggies of some "secret ingredient" they would add to each 100-pound batch of dough.

Since Lamonica's has been making frozen pizza dough from 1962 it makes me wonder if the dough used at the World's Fair was Lamonica's dough with an some kind of secret ingredient added. 

Lamonica's website.

http://www.lamonicaspizzadough.com/www.lamonicaspizzadough.com/Home.html

If anyone is interested, these are some photos of pizzas and cups that were copied off the worldsfaircommunity thread, and a few photos of the Mastro Pizzeria at the World's Fair.  The last photos were of Frank Masto's model pizzeria in 1953. 

Norma

Edit:  I forgot to post the one photo.

I sent this video clip to John Arena (of the Mastro-Arena connection)



To which he replied, "Very interesting video, clearly not typical pizza maker, starts pie with a rolling pin. Spotless chefs outfit is just for filming as is the hat."

The photo below is Chef Nunziato working out of Frank Mastro's model pizzeria in Manhattan.

Also note this slice from the 1964-65 World's Fair, looks like a rolling pin was used.

[norma427]

In my opinion there could still be debates about who invented the first gas deck oven for pizzas.

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/401040/OVENMAKER-GETS-ANOTHER-PIECE-OF-THE-PIZZA-PIE.html

And:

https://www.npr.org/2011/03/24/134628158/how-italian-food-became-a-global-sensation


If Ira Nevin didn't really start building gas deck ovens till the end of the war it seems that Frank Mastro was ahead of him.

A postwar boon to pizza makers occurred when GI Ira Nevin returned from Italy to New Rochelle, New York, and combined his family's expertise in oven re­pair with his newfound love of the pizzas he had had in Naples to came up with the Baker's Pride gas-fired ceramic deck pizza oven. Prior to that, pizzas were baked in hand-built, brick-lined ovens fired by coal.
In the eastern cities, pizzas were still considered simple, cheap, filling fare, es­pecially to be enjoyed on a Friday night, when Catholics were still forbidden to eat meat, with a beer or bottle of cheap red wine. By the 1950s, take-out made sales soar, so that special cardboard boxes were created for the purpose, usually imprinted with a roly-poly, mustachioed Italian pizzaiolo tweaking his cheek and saying "Hot and Fresh!" or "You've Tried All the Rest, Now Try the Best!"
Largely, though, most Americans at that time had never heard of pizza. "If someone suggests a 'pizza pie' after the theater, don't think it is going to be a wedge of apple," wrote New York Herald Tribune food columnist Clementine Paddleford in 1939. "It is going to be the surprise of your life,... a nice stunt to surprise the visiting relatives, who will be heading East soon for the World's Fair. They come to be surprised, and pizza, pronounced 'peet-za,' will do the job brown."

Oregano and Ira Nevin.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/05/09/405302961/gis-helped-bring-freedom-to-europe-and-a-taste-for-oregano-to-america

This compact pizza oven article isn't until 1955 but it says that the compact pizza oven designed for use by smaller operators is being offered at Frank Mastro Company, Inc. 240 Bowery, New York and it can go up to 700 degrees F.  The magnifying glass has to be used to see the article.

https://books.google.com/books?id=NyMEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA66&lpg=PA66&dq=who+invented+the+first+deck+oven+for+pizzas+frank+mastro&source=bl&ots=zpSB2DLJwG&sig=jGtPhyslebvKC5AWCFKqeXx1GK8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj_mZW1v7TaAhXBqYMKHXvFB0I4ChDoAQg6MAM#v=onepage&q=who%20invented%20the%20first%20deck%20oven%20for%20pizzas%20frank%20mastro&f=false

And another ad in Billboard on page 29

https://books.google.com/books?id=9R0EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=Frank+Mastro+Company,+inc.+240+Bowery+ny+12+pizza+ovens&source=bl&ots=HMXICYhQw2&sig=7LPlfI6KD4h96LbKgkmqx_Gd6Ks&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-1e-jwrTaAhUm4YMKHRSPCwcQ6AEITDAD#v=onepage&q=Frank%20Mastro%20Company%2C%20inc.%20240%20Bowery%20ny%2012%20pizza%20ovens&f=false

Norma

[norma427]

From an article in 1939 about pizza.

https://books.google.com/books?id=fF1RDwAAQBAJ&pg=PT1048&lpg=PT1048&dq=New+york+York+Herald+Tribune+food+columnist+Clementine+Paddleford+in+1939+pizza&source=bl&ots=UfB-RsZ9bV&sig=HoUT9BIaMpOeIKZG8KRXONvud4c&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwig2vCcybTaAhUm7YMKHRqQBPUQ6AEILzAB#v=onepage&q=New%20york%20York%20Herald%20Tribune%20food%20columnist%20Clementine%20Paddleford%20in%201939%20pizza&f=false

From that article and what food columnist said in 1939 it seems that is when Madeline Mastro Ferrentino told Walter and me that Madeline father thought about selling pizzas at that World's Fair, but decided not to.  If that is true it would predate Ira Nevin. 

Never heard before that pizza might have been called pizzapaia. 


Norma

[norma427]

Another article that describes how people ate in 1939 and pizza on page 19.

https://books.google.com/books?id=xtQabclg5AsC&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=New+york+York+Herald+Tribune+food+columnist+Clementine+Paddleford+in+1939+pizza&source=bl&ots=9AiOngdwoQ&sig=yCgIgzf5UyeRvDKspUBwkOplkWk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwig2vCcybTaAhUm7YMKHRqQBPUQ6AEIOzAE#v=onepage&q=New%20york%20York%20Herald%20Tribune%20food%20columnist%20Clementine%20Paddleford%20in%201939%20pizza&f=false

Norma

[invertedisdead]

And another ad in Billboard on page 29

https://books.google.com/books?id=9R0EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=Frank+Mastro+Company,+inc.+240+Bowery+ny+12+pizza+ovens&source=bl&ots=HMXICYhQw2&sig=7LPlfI6KD4h96LbKgkmqx_Gd6Ks&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi-1e-jwrTaAhUm4YMKHRSPCwcQ6AEITDAD#v=onepage&q=Frank%20Mastro%20Company%2C%20inc.%20240%20Bowery%20ny%2012%20pizza%20ovens&f=false

Norma

Very cool Norma.

Here's an ad, also in Billboard Magazine for Ira Nevin and Bakers Pride, this issue was released just two weeks after Mastro's ad in the same publication.

https://books.google.com/books?id=vRkEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75&dq=ira+nevin+bakers+pride+ny+pizza&source=bl&ots=seuZid3ex5&sig=DXZRNzFkpuBzLn5u7FrBSu-rnmE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwji7bXc-bTaAhVmjVQKHe8GBToQ6AEIRjAD#v=onepage&q=ira%20nevin%20bakers%20pride%20ny%20pizza&f=false

The PMQ says "Mastro reportedly sold more than 3,000 pizza ovens between 1938 and 1953."
Is there is a source for that reference?


Nevin's story seems quite compelling considering he was a third generation oven builder himself, engineered propulsion systems for US war planes, and witnessed pizza being made while serving in Italy.

From my research there is very few sources outside of Vincent and Madeline Mastro Ferrentino themselves.

[HarryHaller73]

"After World War II, and continuing through the 1950s, Blodgett built upon its previous success. Each passing year brought increased revenues, with more benefits accruing to the company's employees all the time. The Patrick family, still in control of the company's entire operations, built a tradition of excellent management-employee relations over the years. Not only rewarding its long-term workers with profit sharing and generous pension plans, the Patrick family never laid off a single worker during the time it ran the company. By 1958, Blodgett had grown large enough for management to consider expanding company operations overseas. Consequently, Blodgett International contracted its first foreign distributor in the same year. Another development in the 1950s was the introduction of a line of pizza deck ovens."

http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/blodgett-holdings-inc-history/

"Bakers Pride was founded in 1945 and began offering the Y-602 Double Pizza Oven. Many New York pizzerias purchased this oven for creating chef quality pizza. Some original models are still in operation.[1] The brand offers a full line of deck ovens and gas counter top ovens such as the VH-1828 series.[2] The GC182 oven features two separate 18 inch conveyors.[3]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakers_Pride

Keep in mind that there were electric pizza ovens built and sold prior to the war.   

[norma427]

Very cool Norma.

Here's an ad, also in Billboard Magazine for Ira Nevin and Bakers Pride, this issue was released just two weeks after Mastro's ad in the same publication.

https://books.google.com/books?id=vRkEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA75&lpg=PA75&dq=ira+nevin+bakers+pride+ny+pizza&source=bl&ots=seuZid3ex5&sig=DXZRNzFkpuBzLn5u7FrBSu-rnmE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwji7bXc-bTaAhVmjVQKHe8GBToQ6AEIRjAD#v=onepage&q=ira%20nevin%20bakers%20pride%20ny%20pizza&f=false

The PMQ says "Mastro reportedly sold more than 3,000 pizza ovens between 1938 and 1953."
Is there is a source for that reference?


Nevin's story seems quite compelling considering he was a third generation oven builder himself, engineered propulsion systems for US war planes, and witnessed pizza being made while serving in Italy.

From my research there is very few sources outside of Vincent and Madeline Mastro Ferrentino themselves.

Ryan,

Thanks for the link about the Baker's Pride ad.

Can't find the link right now about how many ovens Mastro reportedly sold between 1928 and 1953 because I can't recall what search words that were used before.

I agree Nevin's story sounds compelling on all that he did but so does Frank Mastro's story.  They both were brilliant men.

Probably if Frank and Vinnie had lived longer there might be more on the web about them.

I did email younger Vinnie Mastro to see if he has any kind of document or photos.  Also asked Vinnie if he knows if Frank Mastro Ferrentino has anything.

From this link Madeline talks about all her father did.

https://www.fermag.com/articles/6390-this-is-a-wonderful-old-business

Bari claims to claims to have been shipping pizza oven to pizzerias all over the city since 1930 but don't think that is true.

http://observer.com/2012/07/bowery-restaurant-supply-last-suppliers-bourgeois/

Norma

[norma427]

Just a little more information from Vinnie Mastro.


Hi Norma,
Nice to hear from you.  The only picture we have is the one that was in the Pizza Magazine article and I think my Aunt Madeline has the original.  I don't know the time frame.  One way of guessing however is when did blodgett sell their first pizza oven under their name.  I believe that date was 1953.  So you can estimate at a minimum they signed the royalty agreement with my Grandfather a year earlier than that which brings it to 52.  No manufacturer would even entertain the idea without a few years of real, tangible sales as proof of market viability.  I know my grandfather sold ovens in Quebec as well as Puerto Rico.  So my guess is we are probably into the upper 40s now.  We also know for certain that we sold Pizza Ovens under the Mastro name plate before they were sold under the Blodgett name plate.  So that also suggests it was sometime before 52.

It is a shame.  My Aunt Mary knew all this stuff (Madeline's older sister) but she passed a dozen years ago.

On a more positive note...  I got an email about 6 months ago from a guy who said he wanted to contact me to thank the Mastro family for everything we did to help his family get into the Pizza and catering business.  It turns out his dad had 4 or so pizza shops in NYC with their primary location on or near Wall Street.  In 2008, with the financial collapse, his father shut down the stores and retired.  This guy had just finished closing his father's estate (he had passed a year or 2 earlier) and his last act was to contact me.  I actually met him for lunch one day.  He told me that his father loved my dad and as a boy working in the pizzeria; his father would say something positive about my dad almost every day.  It was very nice to hear.  It was one more proof point of the strategy my father and grandfather used to create the pizza market and it is also another example where a person has told me how great a guy my dad was.

Good luck and thank you for your interest,

Vinnie

I then asked Vinnie what were the names of the pizzerias near Wall St. and other ones the guy owned.  Also asked Vinnie if I could post what he replies on the forum.

This is Vinnie's second reply:

The name of the Pizzeria's:

Here is a quote from his email to me:  The name of my father little pizzeria chains were called Best Pizza and Hero
Restaurants 1,11 and specifically one located on Rector street downtown Wall Street area. My father always spoke so highly of your father and how they were close friends and often went out to dinner on Mulberry Street in Little Italy. My father also worked at your family’s Pizza stand at the 1964-65 world’s fair and was a consultant and trained new franchises and new purchasers of your family’s pizza ovens from preparing the dough to the cooking and cleaning process of your family’s pizza ovens.
Vinnie

Norma

[norma427]

Not sure if this is legend or what, but Scott's Pizza Tours posted about the Silvestro family that opened Joe's Tomato Pies in the Chambersburg section of Trenton, NJ, but legend says they were making pizza on Spring Street in NYC as far back as 1905.

Wonder if that was the pizzeria on Spring St. that we were looking for awhile ago.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BhcROYenl6P/?taken-by=scottspizzatours

Norma

[norma427]

In case anyone is interested in the pizzeria on Spring it was posted about before earlier in this thread.  Will post the link again.

https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn83030272/1905-06-18/ed-1/seq-31/#words=bakers+Neapolitan&date1=1836&rows=20&searchType=basic&state=&date2=1905&proxtext=Neapolitan+bakers&y=0&x=0&dateFilterType=yearRange&index=0

Norma

[norma427]

I was talking to Frank Giaquinto this evening.  Frank said when he first learned to make pizzas he only opened them with flour, and so did his father and grandfather.  Frank picked up opening dough balls with oil at Carlos, while watching pie makers there.  Frank also saw other pizzerias in the NYC area open doughs with oil after that.  Frank's main reason for preferred opening with oil is the sauce glides on better and he thinks the crust gets crisper.  Frank can open pizzas many ways.  Talked to Frank about when there was a photo posted of him using a screen.  Frank said he used that screen at a school when making pizzas for disabled children in a Blodgett convection oven. 

Talked to Frank about if  NY style pizzas really had bigger fatter crusts many years ago.  Frank said that is true. 

Frank said he grandfather sold pies from a cart somewhere in the vicinity of 1909-1913 and the whole pizzas were $.25.  Frank also said he brother worked at Mastro's Pizza at the World's Fair in 1964. 

A link to Aldo's II Pizzeria and Restaurant in Ozone Park, NY.  Those pizzas do look like they have bigger fatter rims.

http://pizzahalloffame.com/aldos-ii-pizzeria-restaurant/

Norma

[scott123]

A link to Aldo's II Pizzeria and Restaurant in Ozone Park, NY.  Those pizzas do look like they have bigger fatter rims.

http://pizzahalloffame.com/aldos-ii-pizzeria-restaurant/

Larger rim, yes, John Arena thickness, no.  And, for the record, those pizzas were very clearly edge stretched 

[Essen1]

John Arena thickness, no. 

I'm amused that you have such a strong opinion, judgement and an obviously clear understanding of a man you have never met, let alone talked to or learned anything from.

A little bit of self-reflection might be in order.

[scott123]

A little bit of self-reflection might be in order.

LOL Last I checked, this was pizza, not Zen Buddhism, Mike.

It's not that complicated.  All it takes is a pair of eyes to tell the innate differences between these pizzas.

[norma427]

It's not that complicated.  All it takes is a pair of eyes to tell the innate differences between these pizzas.

Scott,

You might be surprised at what John's pizzas looked like in the 70's.  Also some of John Arena's pizza at the Pizza Expo look exactly like the kind of pizzas you like for NY style.

Norma

[norma427]

Seems like way back on September, 5th, 1915 in San Francisco that even was the mention of pizze in a cartoon. 

https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85066408/1915-09-05/ed-1/seq-8/#date1=1789&index=1&rows=20&words=pizze&searchType=basic&sequence=0&state=&date2=1963&proxtext=pizze&y=18&x=9&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

And another mention of pizze April 16, 1916 in San Francisco, California.
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85066408/1916-04-16/ed-1/seq-3/#date1=1789&sort=relevance&rows=20&words=pizze&searchType=basic&sequence=0&index=7&state=&date2=1963&proxtext=pizze&y=18&x=9&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=2

Norma

[vangelo]

Hi Folks, 

I am looking for old pictures of coal fired pizza ovens.  I was contacted this week from someone at Scholastic who wants to write an article for 6th graders about pizza.  She would like to know about the physical size and shape of coal fired ovens in the past.  She said it will have more meaning for the kids if she can provide those kinds of details.

Thanx,
Vinnie

[norma427]

Hi Folks, 

I am looking for old pictures of coal fired pizza ovens.  I was contacted this week from someone at Scholastic who wants to write an article for 6th graders about pizza.  She would like to know about the physical size and shape of coal fired ovens in the past.  She said it will have more meaning for the kids if she can provide those kinds of details.

Thanx,
Vinnie

Vinnie,

I think your Aunt Madeline was talking about a coal fired oven something like the one Scott Wiener posted at

https://slice.seriouseats.com/2011/07/scotts-pizza-chronicles-rise-and-fall-and-rise-of-the-coal-oven.html

Photo copied and attached.  At least that is what I recalled seeing a photo of or something somewhat like that.  Scott does say it was used for bread and pizza, but still was large compared to today's deck ovens.  Those kinds of coal fired ovens are harder to control in terms of keeping the basic same temperatures.

Norma

[Zing]

Just have time for a quick reply, but there are plenty of pictures on the web of the coal ovens of Lombardi's, 32 Spring St. in Manhattan and Totonno's, 1524 Neptune Avenue in Brooklyn. Using Google Images get you a lot of them in a hurray.