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Author Topic: Have you had this cheese melt?  (Read 70572 times)

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Offline HansB

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #440 on: July 05, 2017, 02:04:29 AM »
It was all due to Norma's excellent dough!! Norma really make an excellent pizza and it was a pleasure to be able to bake one in her oven!
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 02:13:21 AM by HBolte »
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Offline rparker

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #441 on: July 05, 2017, 08:19:49 AM »
The short cool down times and rushing to eat a pie are most certainly not the fault of the oven. If one was to say that a deck oven makes a massive difference, I would have to say "no doubt" despite not ever getting to use one. For me, short cool down periods and the rush to eat a pizza were from the dough I made.

Consider my pizza history, since taking it seriously a couple years ago. 3-4 minutes after taking it out of the oven and losing good quality eating texture was commonplace. I whined about it to no end. I took on my idea for pizza dough and saw that increase over time. Maybe 3-4 minutes turned to 5 minutes by this past January, and my better ones kept the positive texture through the entire eating process. I thought I hit my ceiling and moved on to try other ingredients.

Two months later, well into experiments with other ingrdients, I followed a path and started building some serious girth into some dough batches. I was getting occasional NY Street Style type of texture. My pies moved slowly from 5-minute cool downs to 7-minute cool downs. In short time, I found I could support more toppings and pizza juice. I then found how to manage the bite and chew better and eventually even got the visual appearance of the crumb to help make stretch time easier.

Cool down periods are 9-minutes now, and I purpsely poke about the kitchen getting my drink on ice, plate out and so on before slicing. If I do that, then my first couple bites are into a pie that has mostly "set" and then all is very nice. I never did look at cool down time as a requirment and I still do not. I look at them as evidence that the pie and most importantly the crust held in a bunch of heat to properly bake. It did take a while to figure out.

The other benefits are huge. Baking on a very nice dough, a very nice EVEN dough, has help me make great strides in cheese melt and sauce flavor consistency from pie to pie. If my crust is not primarily a pass through object for heat, the sauce and cheese become less vulnerale to over-cooking and breaking up into too much grease. Ponding is reduced because of great reduction of low spots and more consistent oven spring side to side including the middle. I did find the errors in sauce logic along this time, too, which minimalized further some pie to pie differences.

Now look at Matt's fine slice pictures. It was obvious to me which was which. The whole pie dffrence was tougher until I spotted the pan.  :-[  Ayhow, look at that crumb structure and how even it is. Still some taper, which I whole-heartedly adore, but it all looks so even and you can follow it straight up through the cheese. The BS has more radiant heat than my cheapo GE inside oven, but this time around, I am spending several weeks making my BS bakes match my inside bakes to become more consistent and most importantly, interchangable. I'm getting there. Matt showed me the light I never thought possible with low temp BS bakes. But know this. I am doing 6-1/2 minute bakes on the BS (too quick still) at about 515F center stone that took me 6-1/2 minutes at 565F just a few months ago. I over baked a 585F pie at 5 minutes a couple weeks ago.

Long exhaustive point being, is that it isn't just one thing, and that anyone can make up for a major weakness by exploiting other factors. Mine was all about the dough and I had an abundance of time and compulsion to enable myself to try. (I would love to get mine into a deck oven, btw. I'm betting on over-kill, but I'm also betting my outer rims would improve 10X. Hunch. Anyhow, some home bakers hear "holy sh*t! You did it!" where there was once "....could pass a blindfold test..." where even before it was "...just like NY".) 
« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 08:24:41 AM by rparker »

Offline bregent

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #442 on: July 05, 2017, 02:02:38 PM »
Congratulations.  Unless clearly stated, most broilers are direct heat.

An electric broiler element transfers energy to the food below it through IR radiation, the same way a heated body (metal, stone, etc) in a deck oven will.  You may be confused due to marketing terms. Ovens that are labelled Infra Red ovens often have upper elements that spread the heat more evenly that a traditional tungsten looped element. But the energy transfer is the same. And some use far infra-red elements, and I suspect radiating metal in a deck oven produces longer wavelengths that a hot element.  And again, not sure what you mean by 'direct'.  Radiation is always direct - it transfers energy directly to the object without any medium in direct, line-of-sight. A deck oven certainly has advantages over a home oven as it's made to produce the correct balance of bottom and top heat. It's much harder to get the timing right when using a broiler in a home oven.

As far as home pizza cooling faster than one cooked on a deck oven, I've never seen that to be remotely true.

« Last Edit: July 05, 2017, 02:27:43 PM by bregent »
Bob

HarryHaller73

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #443 on: July 09, 2017, 12:35:41 AM »
An electric broiler element transfers energy to the food below it through IR radiation, the same way a heated body (metal, stone, etc) in a deck oven will.  You may be confused due to marketing terms. Ovens that are labelled Infra Red ovens often have upper elements that spread the heat more evenly that a traditional tungsten looped element. But the energy transfer is the same. And some use far infra-red elements, and I suspect radiating metal in a deck oven produces longer wavelengths that a hot element.  And again, not sure what you mean by 'direct'.  Radiation is always direct - it transfers energy directly to the object without any medium in direct, line-of-sight. A deck oven certainly has advantages over a home oven as it's made to produce the correct balance of bottom and top heat. It's much harder to get the timing right when using a broiler in a home oven.

As far as home pizza cooling faster than one cooked on a deck oven, I've never seen that to be remotely true.

No you are wrong.  It has nothing to do with top element broilers and timing.  A deck oven is required to make a proper NY pizza.  Good pizza can be made at home, but it won't be a NY pizza without a deck sorry. 



HarryHaller73

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #444 on: July 09, 2017, 12:37:48 AM »
The short cool down times and rushing to eat a pie are most certainly not the fault of the oven. If one was to say that a deck oven makes a massive difference, I would have to say "no doubt" despite not ever getting to use one. For me, short cool down periods and the rush to eat a pizza were from the dough I made.


A pizza just pulled out at a NY pizzeria can't be eaten for at least 3 minutes.  It will lead to 3rd degree burns.  I doubt you have any experience in this matter. 

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Offline rparker

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #445 on: July 09, 2017, 09:34:15 AM »
A pizza just pulled out at a NY pizzeria can't be eaten for at least 3 minutes.  It will lead to 3rd degree burns.  I doubt you have any experience in this matter.
:-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D :-D

Wow!!!!  What a heep of pretensciousness that is.  Astonishing! I just described....bah, never mind.

You know, and I say this with every bit of sincerity. I wish you had not given up. I can't imagine a bigger help on the subject of NY Style than if you were to succeed and share.



 

Offline quietdesperation

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #446 on: July 09, 2017, 11:49:21 AM »
No you are wrong.  It has nothing to do with top element broilers and timing.  A deck oven is required to make a proper NY pizza.  Good pizza can be made at home, but it won't be a NY pizza without a deck sorry.

Harry, you've made this point many times. Tis strange you repeatedly make this point in forums dedicated to people baking NY style without a deck oven. Tis passing strange you post it in the thread of one of our most talented and passionate members. What is your motivation for these posts?
« Last Edit: July 09, 2017, 11:51:00 AM by quietdesperation »
jeff

Offline bregent

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #447 on: July 11, 2017, 03:06:21 PM »
No you are wrong.  It has nothing to do with top element broilers and timing.  A deck oven is required to make a proper NY pizza.  Good pizza can be made at home, but it won't be a NY pizza without a deck sorry.

I am not wrong. I burned my mouth plenty on NY pizza, both from deck ovens and my home oven - the amount of time they stay hot is exactly the same. There is nothing magical about the heat produced in a deck oven. 
Bob

HarryHaller73

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #448 on: July 11, 2017, 03:30:30 PM »
Harry, you've made this point many times. Tis strange you repeatedly make this point in forums dedicated to people baking NY style without a deck oven. Tis passing strange you post it in the thread of one of our most talented and passionate members. What is your motivation for these posts?

There is no motivation.  You can go a lifetime fiddling with sauce and cheese or just get a deck oven that does it right in 10 minutes.
If you are a glutton for pain or the endless road is more interesting than the destination, then by all means continue on the experiments.
I wouldn't comment to anyone trying to make NY pizza at home as a hobby, but the objective here seems to want to emulate to 100% specificity and it's just not going to happen.

« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 03:36:37 PM by HarryHaller73 »

HarryHaller73

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #449 on: July 11, 2017, 03:33:46 PM »
I am not wrong. I burned my mouth plenty on NY pizza, both from deck ovens and my home oven - the amount of time they stay hot is exactly the same. There is nothing magical about the heat produced in a deck oven.

Concentrated IR heat produced by thick metal deck ovens with a lower ceiling penetrates dough, sauce and cheese.  Home ovens don't, they heat mostly via the surrounding hot air which is why a deck can be opened and closed and home ovens can't without significant loss in performance.  Plus internal ambient temperature in home ovens especially in newer models fluctuate significantly.   You can pretend it's the same, but it's not.  There is a reason why NY pizzerias don't use home oven appliances even though they are significantly cheaper.


« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 03:54:33 PM by HarryHaller73 »

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #450 on: July 11, 2017, 03:58:12 PM »
There is no motivation.  You can go a lifetime fiddling with sauce and cheese or just get a deck oven that does it right in 10 minutes.
If you are a glutton for pain or the endless road is more interesting than the destination, then by all means continue on the experiments.
I wouldn't comment to anyone trying to make NY pizza at home as a hobby, but the objective here seems to want to emulate to 100% specificity and it's just not going to happen.

I am inclined to agree with HarryHaller73 on this. After my experience using Tony Gemignani's deck ovens I knew that it will be nearly impossible to recreate the pies that came out of those ovens in a home setting, even though it was my dough, mixed at home and brought in for the test bakes. The efficiency of a home oven does not even come close to a commercial deck oven.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46580.msg467297#msg467297

Anyway, I'm not trying to open a can of worms here but just wanted to share my experience.
Mike

ďAll styles of pizza are valid. I make the best Iím capable of; you should make the best youíre capable of. I donít want to make somebody elseís pizza.Ē ~ Chris Bianco

Offline quietdesperation

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #451 on: July 11, 2017, 04:45:07 PM »
There is no motivation. 

harry, step into my office, lie down on the couch  :D there's gotta be a motivation or you wouldn't have posted. I think we all respect your experience and opinion. But would you have us give up? or all buy deck ovens? if not, what do you suggest?

personally, I'm not chasing the NY slice standard. I feel I'm on a path to making pizza my family, friends and I enjoy and that's enough. actually, it's more than enough.

jeff

Offline rparker

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #452 on: July 11, 2017, 04:51:06 PM »
It's not about heat penetration in the dough. It's about heat containment. Keeping the heat in the dough long enough for it to do some good instead of directly and immediately passing heat through to the sauce and cheese and out of the pie. 

I've long maintained that the deck oven is more forgivable. By that, I mean to say that I would not need as perfect a dough as I can make. Alas, I do not have the luxury of getting to play with a deck oven to be sure. That's where you get me in this one.

But do NOT tell me it's impossible.  >:( 

Having that distinctive crumb density batch t batch, bake to bake also helps maintain predictable sauce flavor development and nice cheese melts. That was sort of a side benefit I didn't count on.  :chef:

Offline bregent

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #453 on: July 11, 2017, 05:46:04 PM »
I am inclined to agree with HarryHaller73 on this. After my experience using Tony Gemignani's deck ovens I knew that it will be nearly impossible to recreate the pies that came out of those ovens in a home setting, even though it was my dough, mixed at home and brought in for the test bakes. The efficiency of a home oven does not even come close to a commercial deck oven.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46580.msg467297#msg467297

Anyway, I'm not trying to open a can of worms here but just wanted to share my experience.

It is hard to duplicate, but it's not impossible.  You do need top IR radiation which, despite Harry's claim to the contrary, is what a broiler will produce. The difficult part is matching the energy with what is produced in a deck oven. You need to play around with the distance and the time the element is on, and a weak element may not provide enough energy.  And of course a home oven is not going to match the production capabilities of a commercial deck oven, but if you can get the temperature balance right, you can make an authentic pie. But again, there is nothing magical about the wavelength of IR produced in a deck oven that makes a pie stay hot longer.
Bob

Offline Essen1

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #454 on: July 11, 2017, 07:04:18 PM »
It is hard to duplicate, but it's not impossible.

And of course a home oven is not going to match the production capabilities of a commercial deck oven, but if you can get the temperature balance right, you can make an authentic pie.

I never said it's impossible.

I said nearly impossible because you get a completely different bake out of commercial deck ovens compared to a home oven, even if you would be able to get the temp balance right. But, the minute you open that big home oven door, the temp in that oven drops instantly and significantly, and the elements are not powerful enough to recover fast enough once one is done loading the pie and closing that door again. I've experienced that time and time again. Not too mention inadequate insulation.

Just my 0.02... 8)
Mike

ďAll styles of pizza are valid. I make the best Iím capable of; you should make the best youíre capable of. I donít want to make somebody elseís pizza.Ē ~ Chris Bianco

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Online Rolls

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #455 on: July 11, 2017, 07:18:25 PM »
I feel I'm on a path to making pizza my family, friends and I enjoy and that's enough. actually, it's more than enough.

 ^^^ Well said. I feel the same.


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HarryHaller73

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #456 on: July 12, 2017, 05:18:33 PM »
^^^ Well said. I feel the same.


Rolls

I think it's great this community serves to do that.  This thread however is about matching what is served in commerce.

HarryHaller73

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #457 on: July 12, 2017, 05:20:11 PM »
I never said it's impossible.

I said nearly impossible because you get a completely different bake out of commercial deck ovens compared to a home oven, even if you would be able to get the temp balance right. But, the minute you open that big home oven door, the temp in that oven drops instantly and significantly, and the elements are not powerful enough to recover fast enough once one is done loading the pie and closing that door again. I've experienced that time and time again. Not too mention inadequate insulation.

Just my 0.02... 8)

I think Essen1 knows what he's talking about.  And this is in no way to discourage people, but rather, a recognition that some of the members have gone past the hobby stage, and are ready for the real deal, and that does require the correct tools.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 05:21:57 PM by HarryHaller73 »

Offline parallei

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #458 on: July 12, 2017, 05:34:58 PM »

I said nearly impossible because you get a completely different bake out of commercial deck ovens compared to a home oven,


Well Mike, if you'd open your shop here in Denver instead of the Bay Area, I could maybe try a deck oven?  Denver needs your shop!

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Have you had this cheese melt?
« Reply #459 on: July 12, 2017, 06:44:55 PM »
I think it's great this community serves to do that.  This thread however is about matching what is served in commerce.

The thread to me is about most closely matching it within the confines of a typical home setting. And over the last 6 months of this thread, you and others have helped me improve tremendously.

The fact that the easiest (and seemingly only in your view) way to create a NY pizza is to buy the same ingredients and use the same oven should go without saying. If my goal is to eat a NY slice this weekend, I could just buy one. If my goal is to make a NY slice, I could just buy a pizzeria.

...some of the members have gone past the hobby stage, and are ready for the real deal, and that does require the correct tools.

I don't know what you mean by that. To me, moving from hobby to real deal means moving from making pizza at home for themselves/friends/family to making pizza as a business. I don't think anyone on this thread indicated they were intending to sell their pies.

Matt

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