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Author Topic: NY Style sauce discussion  (Read 61657 times)

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Offline Fiorot

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #540 on: July 10, 2019, 10:11:15 PM »
I read somewhere that you should not blend whole (seeded) tomatoes because you run the risk of the blades cutting the seeds in half which releases a bitter flavor. Best to use a tomato strainer (food mill) instead.
You don't have to slice them you just have to cook them for the same result.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2019, 10:14:12 PM by Fiorot »

Offline quietdesperation

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #541 on: July 11, 2019, 12:05:24 AM »
I tried a little soy sauce last bake, not sure I could pick it out blind but I liked it.
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Offline NY_Mike

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #542 on: July 11, 2019, 07:54:53 AM »
Thanks Steve. I almost bought a food mill last weekend (was at a William's Sonoma outlet store), but I needed a compelling reason not to stick blend.

I will say that I have plenty of seeds after blending,  though certainly haven't done a before and after count  :-D

Anyone ever notice this bitter taste from blended seeds? Sounds like I may need to experiment.

I've never myself gone through the process of straining to get as many as I could out, but I have also read that seeds can lead to a more bitter flavor. Frankly, removing the seeds by hand by slicing open the tomato's has always gotten it to the point where it'd be very hard to find many if not any at all, and I also do cook my sauce a bit.
But it definitely would be an interesting experiment, milling the tomato's and straining them versus stick blend.

Also curious, where about's on LI do you live? (don't have to share or be super specific  :) )
« Last Edit: July 11, 2019, 07:57:59 AM by NY_Mike »

Offline norma427

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #543 on: July 11, 2019, 08:34:38 AM »
Tony Uva, of Sorrento Pizza tips for removing seeds using a strainer.

 

Also two photos of Tony's slices.

Norma

Offline hammettjr

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #544 on: July 12, 2019, 07:20:04 AM »
Tony Uva, of Sorrento Pizza tips for removing seeds using a strainer.

 

Also two photos of Tony's slices.

Norma

Great find. I'm really surprised to see a pizzeria break tomato by hand. Note that the pizzeria is in Stamford Connecticut,  and that he was making sauce for a "marhgerita".

On the opposite end of the spectrum,  I just found a pizzeria video where they stick blend directly in the #10 cans.



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Offline Steve

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #545 on: July 12, 2019, 08:49:29 AM »
On the opposite end of the spectrum,  I just found a pizzeria video where they stick blend directly in the #10 cans.

I guess if including seeds is part of the flavor profile that you want, then no harm. Different strokes for different folks.

Offline hammettjr

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #546 on: July 12, 2019, 10:32:05 AM »
I guess if including seeds is part of the flavor profile that you want, then no harm. Different strokes for different folks.

So you've noticed a flavor impact from seeds? (Before you said you read that it has an impact.)

I've done everything from removing the seeds one by one to not removing them at all to actually trying to chew them to see the taste. I haven't confirmed that I can tell the difference.

From what I've read on the forum, some people think the seeds make a difference while others dont.

An experiment I'm thinking about is to lightly cook 2 batches of just the liquid that comes in a WP can, but I'll add the seeds from the tomato to one batch (even trying to break some of the seeds first). Then will taste each batch.

I'm a bit annoyed that I didn't buy the food mill last week. And that I blended up a full #10 can before freezing.

Matt

Offline jkb

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #547 on: July 12, 2019, 10:37:28 AM »
I don't have a strong opinion either way.  Insignificant in the big picture, IMO.
John

Offline Fiorot

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #548 on: July 12, 2019, 11:53:03 AM »
I don't have a strong opinion either way.  Insignificant in the big picture, IMO.
The only way to know then is to make sauce with and without and taste.

Offline jkb

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #549 on: July 12, 2019, 11:58:44 AM »
The only way to know then is to make sauce with and without and taste.

I've done it both ways and don't care.  I don't subscribe to the "more work means it's better" dogma.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 12:09:19 PM by jkb »
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Offline norma427

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #550 on: July 12, 2019, 12:17:26 PM »
I guess if including seeds is part of the flavor profile that you want, then no harm. Different strokes for different folks.

So you've noticed a flavor impact from seeds? (Before you said you read that it has an impact.)

I've done everything from removing the seeds one by one to not removing them at all to actually trying to chew them to see the taste. I haven't confirmed that I can tell the difference.

From what I've read on the forum, some people think the seeds make a difference while others dont.

An experiment I'm thinking about is to lightly cook 2 batches of just the liquid that comes in a WP can, but I'll add the seeds from the tomato to one batch (even trying to break some of the seeds first). Then will taste each batch.

I'm a bit annoyed that I didn't buy the food mill last week. And that I blended up a full #10 can before freezing.



Matt,

I tend to agree with Steve.  I tried many kinds of pizza tomato products with added things, some with minimal added things, some with lots of added things, some fresh out of the cans, and even baked sauces.  Although I have my personal preferences, am sure not many members would agree with what I like, after the pizzas are baked, because we all have unique taste buds.  Just strive for what you like.   :)

To give you one example, I had been to Thom's bread and had one of his pizzas baked in his gas fired rotating oven, one made in his commercial deck oven, and one with he used his parbaked crusts, but all of the pizzas were made with the same sauce (tomatoes from Stainlaus.  Not sure how he prepared them) cheeses and dressing and all of the pizzas tasted very different.  The one baked in the gas fired rotating oven tasted the freshest tasting in the sauce department to me, and made a world of difference in the 3 pizzas.  I haven't tried the brand of tomatoes Thom used yet to see if the same thing would happen in my oven at market.

If you haven't seen this from Scott W. it is interesting that they did use a emersion blender to mash
all of the can's contents,  and do the taste tests of different tomato products along with different people.

https://blog.scottspizzatours.com/post/78009652485/tomato-tasting-at-razza-jersey-city

Norma

Offline jkb

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #551 on: July 12, 2019, 03:38:25 PM »
Matt,

I tend to agree with Steve.  I tried many kinds of pizza tomato products with added things, some with minimal added things, some with lots of added things, some fresh out of the cans, and even baked sauces.  Although I have my personal preferences, am sure not many members would agree with what I like, after the pizzas are baked, because we all have unique taste buds.  Just strive for what you like.   :)

To give you one example, I had been to Thom's bread and had one of his pizzas baked in his gas fired rotating oven, one made in his commercial deck oven, and one with he used his parbaked crusts, but all of the pizzas were made with the same sauce (tomatoes from Stainlaus.  Not sure how he prepared them) cheeses and dressing and all of the pizzas tasted very different.  The one baked in the gas fired rotating oven tasted the freshest tasting in the sauce department to me, and made a world of difference in the 3 pizzas.  I haven't tried the brand of tomatoes Thom used yet to see if the same thing would happen in my oven at market.

If you haven't seen this from Scott W. it is interesting that they did use a emersion blender to mash
all of the can's contents,  and do the taste tests of different tomato products along with different people.

https://blog.scottspizzatours.com/post/78009652485/tomato-tasting-at-razza-jersey-city

Norma

Alta Cucina.  He could have saved a lot of time and effort and just asked me.  :-D
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Offline invertedisdead

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #552 on: July 12, 2019, 05:15:41 PM »
Removing seeds is one reason I use the food mill, but it also does a good job of catching any skins or unripe bits of tomato.

I'm not sure if the seeds are bitter or not, but I can say most of the stuff stuck to the sides of my mill at the end of processing a can is not very tasty.
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Offline HansB

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #553 on: July 12, 2019, 06:04:16 PM »
I prepare mine like Antica Pizzeria da Michele:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/3pxmIFz5914?start=380
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 06:08:10 PM by HansB »
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Offline Andrew Bellucci

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #554 on: August 14, 2019, 07:37:19 PM »
I'm curious how many shops are thinning their tomatoes with a lot more oil than we think.

For what it's worth, I've never been in a shop that are thinning tomatoes. Some add sugar, but that's about it.  My experience anyway.

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Offline Andrew Bellucci

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #555 on: August 14, 2019, 07:42:58 PM »
Before coming to this thread JD asked about where I source Sicilian oregano and whether I thought it was an authentic NY slice flavor.

I buy it at Sansone foods on Long Island (Garden City), which I highly recommend going to for anyone in the area. When I first tasted the oregano it instantly brought a familiar flavor that I hadn't tasted in my pizza before. NY pizzerias of course vary, with some being more oregano heavy than others, but since I started using it, I definitely noticed a similar flavor on some of the local pizzerias I've sampled. That said, I can't imagine that the pizzerias are buying dried stalks of oregano. But given many of their other ingredients are superior to what's available in the supermarket, it's a safe assumption that places that choose to have oregano be a noticeable part of their flavor, are using something good. Here's a link with a picture of what I'm using.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=47325.0

I know a pretty famous pizzeria that buys oregano from Cremosa in Melville, L.I. They only sell one type, with the Cremosa label.  Old school place.  I bought mozzarella curd from them in the early 90s.

I've only worked at one place that put oregano (as well as a bunch of other dried herbs and spices in their pizza sauce, and that was Two Boots. But that pie isn't classic NY, they have that Cajun thing going.

Offline Minolta Rokkor

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #556 on: August 14, 2019, 07:56:36 PM »
I'm curious how many shops are thinning their tomatoes with a lot more oil than we think. It definitely gets you that sacred orange grease. I might try next bake using like 4T oil per 28 oz can and see how it comes out.
They're not thinning it, it's just run through a tomato strainer or food mill. When I ran undrained Alta Cucina through a my tomato strainer they got thin. Like Lucali's thin.

I LOVE my tomato strainer, the hopper can fit a whole #10 can worth of tomatos.
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Offline NY_Mike

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #557 on: September 22, 2020, 10:44:39 AM »
Bringing this thread back from the dead as I've had some time to experiment a little and some notes I've made with uncooked vs. cooked sauces. Usually I make a cooked sauce that's reduced a bit.

My last batch of pizzas I ran with an uncooked sauce and some things I've noticed:
Uncooked obviously is the normal for most pizza places in NY, and this sauce definitely handled and looked more like you would see at the local shops. It has a bit more of a tart 'bite' that is common among a lot of pizza places than the usual cooked sauce and it isn't 'watery' but it's much more thin and typical 'looking' as you'd see at a normal slice joint. Also, the oil doesn't fold into the sauce as well, I'd almost next time consider going with less as I don't know how much it really added to the sauce.

The biggest difference I noticed is when the sauce was put on top of the cheese for one of the pies I baked. Without the cheese melting into the sauce from the top down (normal pies) it didn't mellow out any of the flavors of the sauce, so any bitterness from the tomatoes (which also could be from the relatively unimpressive quality of the tomatoes I was using) really carried over.
Without a doubt the flavor profile of the uncooked is much more intense, every ingredient you used really stands out, especially the flavor profile of the tomatoes and the other big one was garlic. I used a clove an a half for two whole cans of tomatoes and it was very noticeable, to the point where it was approaching not being that of a regular New York slice. I didn't realize how much the cooking of the garlic in fat really mellows the flavor of it out.

That being said, it lacks a bit of that richness and depth of flavor you get from a cooked sauced, and while maybe not as 'bright' as an uncooked sauce, it definitely has a bit more presence on the slice in terms of the flavor it's delivering.
Next try I'd really like to go back to back with an uncooked vs. cooked sauce.

Final Opinion:
If you're shooting for a 'traditional' New York pie, an uncooked sauce is the way to go. You can get away with lower quality tomatoes if you can't find the good ones (most slice joints aren't using high end imported SM tomatoes anyway), it's bright and brings intense flavor, sometimes too much so as I encountered so less is more in terms of garlic, and when the cheese melts into the sauce it makes up for some of the richness it's lacking.

If you want to make the best pizza you can and aren't worried about necessarily adhering to strict 'NY' style pizzas, cook the sauce. It has a better flavor profile, is more rich and gives it a more 'high-end' feel if you will. Yes it will be a bit more mellow yet more well rounded, but the slice as a whole is better overall.
Especially run with a cooked sauce if you're going for a Margherita pie, when the sauce has more of a presence than the cheese and really needs to stand out. You can't hide less than ideal quality tomatoes on a pie like this, but you can however jive up some poor quality tomatoes to get rid of any unwanted flavors.

Recipes and process are below, both are ran thru a foodmill to remove the seeds and any leftover skins/unwanted bits, and the amount of dried spices used is about the same...a lot that is.


Uncooked Sauce:
2 cans of whole peeled tomatoes ran thru a food mill.
EVOO about 2 table spoons or so, more can't hurt but too much and the sauce will just separate out and never really blend.
A hefty amount of dried 'Italian spices', to the point where if you pick up a spoonful of sauce from the pot there's a few spots of spices in it.
Red pepper flakes (a shake or two, definitely go easy)
Salt+Pepper
A clove and a half of garlic (I'd go less, more like one large clove or even a smaller medium clove)

Cooked Sauce:
2 cans of whole peeled tomatoes ran thru a food mill.
1 tablespoon of EVOO and 1 Tablespoon or so of butter, about equal parts (this is the biggest difference I think in terms of the mouthfeel is the butter)
Heat up butter/oil until butter is melted and it's hot enough to sautee.
Crush a clove or so of garlic and Sautee, add your dried spices (this really gets the flavor released into the oil) Don't burn your garlic, just soften
Salt+Pepper


Add the tomatoes, fold all the oil and spices in and reduce. This is where you're going to have to use your judgement, as you don't want to reduce it to paste or a thickness where the sauce has to be 'pushed' around on the pizza. Just enough to meld it all together, add Sugar if you're feeling bold or want a sweet sauce.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2020, 03:07:33 PM by NY_Mike »

Offline quietdesperation

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #558 on: September 22, 2020, 03:08:06 PM »
thanks for posting the results of your experiments! as you allude to, the quality of the tomatoes makes a big difference. IMO, 7-11 is the Konami code if one is looking to create a NY slice but scalfani crushed are also great.  Personally, I'm not a fan of cooked for NY or "elite ny" style but it definitely has its place in other styles.

Here's a discussion on cooked vs uncooked sauce that includes member November's MAE-based recipe:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3735.msg32136.html#msg32136

whenever I read these old posts, I come away wishing I was part of that cohort of members. There was just so much passion, discovery and experimentation back then. Most of our formulations and techniques are derived from their hard work.

best,
« Last Edit: September 22, 2020, 03:14:08 PM by quietdesperation »
jeff

Offline hammettjr

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #559 on: September 22, 2020, 10:44:39 PM »

Final Opinion:


I've said that enough that I've learned my lesson...I'll always tinker.

Nice post. Seems like you like both. You may want to try adding some uncooked tomato to your cooked sauce just before baking in an attempt to get the best of both worlds.

Matt

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