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Offline invertedisdead

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NY Style sauce discussion
« on: May 22, 2017, 05:51:16 PM »
Just opening this up going off of the cheese melt thread.

One thing I'm curious about is oil amount in the sauce. Marcella Hazan, Lydia B. Etc. use 4+ tbsp of fat per 28 oz can of tomatoes for their marinara. Anybody using higher oil amounts like that in their pizza sauce? Is EVOO a real NY style street slice sauce ingredient?

I think I'm looking for a sweeter sauce to balance out the saltiness of the crust and cheese, but also with enough zing and acid to make the flavors pop. What's the trick there beyond naturally sweet tomatoes? Regular old sugar? Fruit juice? Coca Cola? Honey?

Use this thread as an ongoing discussion of the development of the NY sauce flavor profile.
the proof is in the pizza

Offline hammettjr

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2017, 06:52:39 PM »
I share your questions about the use of oil.

Lately I've been using 2 tsp oil (half evoo/half light olive) per 14" pie to thin the sauce a bit while adding richness. It looks like alot when I first add it, but after a good stir and a rest it looks fine. I have no idea how much or which kind of oil may be used in street slices. Would be interested to know the typical range as I'm sure it varies.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 08:22:24 PM by hammettjr »
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Offline invertedisdead

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2017, 07:17:18 PM »
I share your questions about the use of oil.

Lately I've been using 2 tsp oil (half evoo/half light) per 14" pie to thin the sauce a bit while adding richness. It looks like alot when I first add it, but after a good stir and a rest it looks fine. I have no idea how much or why kind of oil may be used in street slices. Would be interested to know the typical range as I'm sure it varies.

I'm curious how many shops are thinning their tomatoes with a lot more oil than we think. It definitely gets you that sacred orange grease. I might try next bake using like 4T oil per 28 oz can and see how it comes out.
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Offline Hermit

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2017, 07:50:51 PM »
I am very interested to hear thoughts on this.  I don't use any oil in my sauce but I'd like to if it won't make it too greasy.  I always struggle with moisture on pies.

Right now I really have no idea what I am shooting for, admittedly, having never been to NY and had anything to compare it to.  Just what I've had at so called "NY style pizzarias" outside of NY.  Seems like a wide range between them all in the sauce, I guess this is what sets a lot of them apart if they're using the same ovens/cheese/flour.

Right now I have this renegade sauce that I like, changing up between tomatoes seems to bring a difference to the base.  I've been able to add in some red wine vinegar or white sugar to alter a Roma WP tomato to get a little closer to SM but it's still not the same.  Standard WP tomatoes seem to need the most work but around here they have a lot of the salt already in them. 

My seasonings have changed a lot but I seem to really like 1tsp of granular garlic and oregano, 1/2 tsp of black pepper and crushed red pepper in the sauce.  Using white sugar or red wine vinegar to adjust the sweetness or acidity of the sauce.  I'm finding the salt bounces between 1/2tsp and 1tsp depending on the sodium content of tomatoes.  After about 4 months of using almost exclusively SM tomatoes it seems like the roma WP tomatoes need some work.  No side by side comparisons just perception at this point.  I've been trying to take most tomato products between crushed, WP, diced, and get the flavor and consistency to a familiar ballpark.  It takes me a good 2 hours to make the sauce from the time it's strained until it's done just cooking down the juice and getting the salt/sweet/acid right.  Last time I did a taste test throughout the seasoning process and while it wasn't a rested sauce, I still got the general idea of the profile.  The fresh ground black pepper and granulated garlic both seemed to bring the most layered and noticable flavor profiles over the rest of ingredients.

I have tried about 8 different tomatoes, so this is from a very limited perspective!  I see a lot of members using various brands of tomatoes and I am sure they are great and more commercially used, my ingredients are mostly from a standard grocery shoppers perspective.  I don't get out much.

I think I have my local pizzaria beat out on sauce but I need to do a purchase and comparison with some testers to see  ;D
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 07:53:49 PM by Hermit »

Offline hammettjr

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2017, 08:28:32 PM »
I'm curious how many shops are thinning their tomatoes with a lot more oil than we think. It definitely gets you that sacred orange grease. I might try next bake using like 4T oil per 28 oz can and see how it comes out.

Go for it, will be interested to hear your thoughts. That should be in the same ballpark as what I'm doing. I use half light olive oil because it doesn't have much flavor and I was concerned that all EVOO would have too much flavor. But I never tested how much is too much. I like this thread already.

Matt

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Offline invertedisdead

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2017, 08:40:36 PM »
I tend to like whole peeled tomatoes packed in juice. I like 7/11's and will have to mess with freezing them some more, but I noticed some commercial crushed tomatoes are packed in a purée which is sometimes bad and can ruin the batch.

My garlic powder seems bitter, I'll have to try another one. I like fresh garlic in sauce but find it hard to measure.

I love black pepper but find it easy to over do it.

I think oregano quality makes a huge difference, I had some great organic stuff and I haven't gotten that nice oregano hit since I ran out of that.

I'm looking for that sweet and zesty sauce. I may need to try cola. I think the sweetness + acid could work. Pineapple juice is sweet and sour, but that might be getting crazy... Although Kenji puts fish sauce in his bolognese so hey... Reaching out here

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Offline hammettjr

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2017, 08:41:47 PM »
Before coming to this thread JD asked about where I source Sicilian oregano and whether I thought it was an authentic NY slice flavor.

I buy it at Sansone foods on Long Island (Garden City), which I highly recommend going to for anyone in the area. When I first tasted the oregano it instantly brought a familiar flavor that I hadn't tasted in my pizza before. NY pizzerias of course vary, with some being more oregano heavy than others, but since I started using it, I definitely noticed a similar flavor on some of the local pizzerias I've sampled. That said, I can't imagine that the pizzerias are buying dried stalks of oregano. But given many of their other ingredients are superior to what's available in the supermarket, it's a safe assumption that places that choose to have oregano be a noticeable part of their flavor, are using something good. Here's a link with a picture of what I'm using.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=47325.0
Matt

Offline hammettjr

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2017, 08:47:01 PM »

My garlic powder seems bitter, I'll have to try another one. I like fresh garlic in sauce but find it hard to measure.


I want to try fresh garlic, never put it in my sauce. Maybe weigh it?
Matt

Offline invertedisdead

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NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2017, 08:51:37 PM »
I want to try fresh garlic, never put it in my sauce. Maybe weigh it?

I don't think it would register on my scale with the amount I'd use, but I may try mincing it or pressing it and then measure out 1/8-1/4 teaspoon. Should be fairly accurate.

Fresh garlic adds a nice unique heat. I may just infuse it in the EVOO to tame the olive oil and discard the clove to avoid measuring.
the proof is in the pizza

Offline quietdesperation

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2017, 12:12:48 AM »
I keep it really simple, Sclafani, a pinch of good oregano and a pinch of sea salt. I've also used trader joes, which in 6-in-1, with a little more sea salt. My wife, who owns the better palate in the marriage. loves my sauce, so I think I'm on to something with the kiss technique.  If I'm topping with pepperoni, I leave out the sea salt.

I do add a really good eevo post bake and it definitely adds richness to the slice.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2017, 12:15:14 AM by quietdesperation »
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Offline csnack

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2017, 03:40:45 AM »
I have yet to keep it simple. I tend to like a well seasoned mae sauce. I've been going through a case of Sclafani and they're very good, but I just got a deal on 6 28oz cans of Cento all purpose crushed and I really dig the taste right out of the can. Sclafani is good out of the can too, but I think I'm liking Cento better though I ended up doing my usual mae and seasonings. I think next time I'll try just a bit of salt, red pepper flakes and maybe oregano since that seems to be the quintessential NY sauce herb, and some evoo. I always use 2 tbsp of a decent evoo, right now California Olive Ranch.

Offline norma427

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2017, 04:01:41 AM »
Ashley Searches NYC for the Secret to Its Legendary Pizza Tradition

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/blogs/1st-look/New-York-vs-Los-Angeles-Pizza.html
 
Note how thin Luigi's sauce is and how the cheese melt is. 

BTW, I do like some olive oil in my sauces except for NP pies.

Norma

Offline hammettjr

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2017, 07:12:12 AM »
I keep it really simple, Sclafani, a pinch of good oregano and a pinch of sea salt.

Can you elaborate on the oregano you use and where you purchase it?
Matt

Offline quietdesperation

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2017, 08:23:41 AM »
this is the best I've found so far:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IT8V9GE/?tag=pmak-20
jeff

Offline rlslmshdy

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2017, 10:15:04 AM »
Is everyone using oregano in their NY style sauce?  I use fresh basil in my sauce.  I dont use oregano.  Guess i need to try oregano

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Offline invertedisdead

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2017, 01:23:35 PM »
Regarding sauce complexity... This is just my opinion, but I find it a lot easier to get away with a simpler sauce when using toppings like pepperoni or others. I tend to use a fairly pronounced pepperoni which can add zing to any pie, so I find it's the classic cheese slice which reveals the pitfalls of a sauce. I like a sweet and zesty sauce with an herbal backbone, but I don't like it when the herbs turn the sauce bitter. Is that from using a lower quality oregano? Do you guys using the real deal notice less aversion to that occurring?
the proof is in the pizza

Offline bregent

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2017, 01:49:41 PM »
I've been using jsaras's sauce recipe for the past few years and really like it: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=38976.msg390028#msg390028

Depending on the tomatoes I use, I may add plain white sugar. For Smart & Final crushed tomatoes, I usually add 10-14 grams.  If using Cento All-purpose, I don't add any sugar.
Bob

Offline hammettjr

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2017, 09:13:34 PM »
I don't like it when the herbs turn the sauce bitter. Is that from using a lower quality oregano? Do you guys using the real deal notice less aversion to that occurring?

Not sure, it's possible. I also mix my sauce only a few hours before baking, so it's not sitting that long.
Matt

Offline hammettjr

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2017, 09:14:37 PM »
this is the best I've found so far:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00IT8V9GE/?tag=pmak-20

Thanks.  I read about this one on the forum recently. Consensus was that it was the best. How do you store it?
Matt

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: NY Style sauce discussion
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2017, 10:45:03 PM »
Should the sauce on a square be different from a round pie? I know some NY places have a different Sicilian sauce - how common is this?
the proof is in the pizza

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