Pete-zza Does DKM Cracker Style

[Pete-zza]

Peter,

If you have a different or 'updated' version, I'd be happy to give it a try and post the results.  Things are getting back to normal here in Socal and KABF is available again!

But my Smart and Final has been out of 7/11 since mid-March...

Cheers, Kurt

Kurt,

No, I do not have a different or updated version to try. Once I achieve success by my standards, I tend to move on to other challenges. I have always had a lot of fun and have learned a lot from my clone experiments. As you may have noted, I try to be thorough and complete in my posts. That is to make it easier for others to replicate what I did. My posts also become my archives and spares me having to save paper copies of everything I do.

I'm glad that you and your family are enjoying your clones and with a pizzeria atmosphere to boot.

Peter

[Slowhands1964]

Kurt,

No, I do not have a different or updated version to try. Once I achieve success by my standards, I tend to move on to other challenges. I have always had a lot of fun and have learned a lot from my clone experiments. As you may have noted, I try to be thorough and complete in my posts. That is to make it easier for others to replicate what I did. My posts also become my archives and spares me having to save paper copies of everything I do.

I'm glad that you and your family are enjoying your clones and with a pizzeria atmosphere to boot.

Peter

Thanks Again, Peter.  And by the way Your Papa John is also a favorite. 

[Pete-zza]

Thanks Again, Peter.  And by the way Your Papa John is also a favorite.

Kurt,

That makes me doubly happy that you and your family liked one of my PJ clones. Feel free to post at the PJ clone thread at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58195#msg58195 which particular recipe you used, since that might help other members, and also informs me of which recipes most resonate with our members. When it comes to dough formulations, unless I am working with another member to create workable formulations, like with Norma, or unless I am trying to make an important point, my practice has always been to try to report on my successes, and not my failures, on the theory that people are too busy in their lives with more important matters to want to spend time reading about failures. The failures, albeit rare in my experience, tell me how to change things to achieve success. That is when I provide the details on what I did to achieve success, at least by my personal standards. At the same time, I stand ready to help other members with problems they are experiencing with their pizza making. That is the beauty of this forum.

Peter

[PizzaEater]

Kurt,

No, I do not have a different or updated version to try. Once I achieve success by my standards, I tend to move on to other challenges. I have always had a lot of fun and have learned a lot from my clone experiments. As you may have noted, I try to be thorough and complete in my posts. That is to make it easier for others to replicate what I did. My posts also become my archives and spares me having to save paper copies of everything I do.

I'm glad that you and your family are enjoying your clones and with a pizzeria atmosphere to boot.

Peter

So Peter, which was the final formulation that you settled on?

[Pete-zza]

So Peter, which was the final formulation that you settled on?

Dave,

That is a difficult question to answer. And the reason is that a lot depends on the equipment that you have available to you can make a credible dough in a typical home setting that has a hydration value of only 36%. You will also need to find a way to be able to roll out such a low hydration dough with a rolling pin. And, finally, you will have to have a method for pre-baking the rolled-out skins before dressing and baking.

In my case, I found that using a food processor (a 14-cup Cuisinart processor) worked better than my KitchenAid stand mixer. I also tried using my Zojirushi bread maker to prepare the dough, and that did not work out well because that machine could not handle a dough with a hydration of only 36%. However, quite surprisingly, I found that I could actually make a very good dough by hand.

Another challenge that confronted me was how to be able to roll the dough out easily, using only a standard home type rolling pin. The answer to that challenge was to use a proofing box that I built that could warm the dough to around 110 degrees F. That made rolling the dough out a breeze. I also tried using my standard electric oven to preheat the dough but I could not control the temperature sufficiently well to make that a good choice. That led to my using a dough warming method by member Jon. But, without preheating the dough, it becomes a real chore to be able to roll out the dough to form the desired skins easily and quickly.

Lastly, you have to find the best way of docking and pre-baking the skins and then finishing the bake when the cheese, sauce and toppings are placed on the pre-baked skins. In my case, I used an unperforated cutter pan. But there are other options that might also be good ones, such as pizza screens or other types of pans. Maybe even a pizza stone or steel. In my case, I stuck with my cutter pan.

With the above as background, you might find these posts to be useful guides in the event you decide to try to make the DKM-based cracker crusts, inasmuch as the posts describe in detail how I approached the challenge of making cracker-style crusts in a typical home setting.

Reply 16 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5762.msg49138#msg49138,

Replies 61 and Reply 62 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5762.msg49722#msg49722, and

Replies 126, 127 and 128 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5762.msg53174#msg53174.

Peter

[tryer]

I tried the DKM pizza recipe yesterday and today.  (Thanks, DKM).  I used a lot of your recommendations, Peter. Thanks.  I made two 12-inch pizzas out of one batch of dough.  The first one I rolled out and baked right after warming the dough to 110-115dF and the other one I rolled out, dusted, folded, and put it in a 1 gallon food storage bag; that one went into the fridge for use the next day.  When I did cook it, I parbaked the second one but not the first one.  I was more generous with the toppings in the case of the second one.  In both cases, I started baking the pizza in a pizza pan on a pizza iron, and, after the cheese was melted I slid the pizza out of the pan, directly onto the pizza iron.  Both pizzas were crispy/crunchy, and delicious, but the second one more so.

In making the dough: I used lard instead of vegetable oil.  I put the water, sugar, and yeast in one bowl, and the salt (1.75%) and flour in another.  I don't own a stand mixer or a food processor, so, after mixing the salt in with the flour, I added the lard and used a scissors action with two table knives (as well as occasionally scraping the sides of the bowl with one of them) to combine the lard with the flour.  I continued with the scissors action as I added the liquid a little bit at a time (well, more like a third at a time). Once the dough looked like coarse-ground cornmeal, I formed it into a ball which, except for a couple of reshapings, I left in a sealed container for 24 hours. After that I cut the dough ball in two, formed each half into a ball and stored each in a sealed container in the refrigerator until it was time to warm them both up (about 8 hours after I put them in the refrigerator).

I was planning on using the highest possible oven temperature (550dF) as I figure pizza is generally baked at an even higher temperature than that but I was convinced to use the 475dF temperature recommended in the recipe, by a YouTube video in which an Italian pizzaiolo demonstrates and discusses the 6 biggest mistakes people make when making Neapolitan pizza.  The sixth mistake was using a pizza oven at the wrong temperature. He baked a Neapolitan in an oven at too low a temperature and set the pizza down on top of what I think was a wine glass.  The pizza was stiff as a board and did not flop over at all.  He declared it "too crispy."

[Steve]

I was planning on using the highest possible oven temperature (550dF) as I figure pizza is generally baked at an even higher temperature than that but I was convinced to use the 475dF temperature recommended in the recipe, by a YouTube video in which an Italian pizzaiolo demonstrates and discusses the 6 biggest mistakes people make when making Neapolitan pizza.  The sixth mistake was using a pizza oven at the wrong temperature. He baked a Neapolitan in an oven at too low a temperature and set the pizza down on top of what I think was a wine glass.  The pizza was stiff as a board and did not flop over at all.  He declared it "too crispy."

I would think that a lower oven temperature equates to a longer bake time which gives the moisture in the dough more time to evaporate, hence a crispier crust.

[Manhappiness]

Hi guys, I'm planning on making a couple cracker style pizzas this weekend...so I've been reading through this thread this morning.

I'm planning on using a food processor to mix the dough...docking both sides of the skins...using 14" cutter pans...and pre-baking for a few minutes.

To make the dough easier to roll out, I'm thinking about using sous vide. I'd vac seal each dough ball, and let them sit in 110 degree water for 15-30 minutes or so. Has anyone tried this? Any thoughts/worries/etc? TIA!

[RHawthorne]

Hi guys, I'm planning on making a couple cracker style pizzas this weekend...so I've been reading through this thread this morning.

I'm planning on using a food processor to mix the dough...docking both sides of the skins...using 14" cutter pans...and pre-baking for a few minutes.

To make the dough easier to roll out, I'm thinking about using sous vide. I'd vac seal each dough ball, and let them sit in 110 degree water for 15-30 minutes or so. Has anyone tried this? Any thoughts/worries/etc? TIA!

I can't say that process sounds promising. I would think you'd be doing everything in your power to make the yeast activate and really blow the dough up, which would be ultimately counterproductive in your efforts to achieve a thin crust, not to mention that such a process might make the dough really sticky and hard to get back out of the bag. But if you want to be a guinea pig for the forum and show us what happens, we're always interested in seeing how new experimental techniques work out 

[Mad_Ernie]

Hi guys, I'm planning on making a couple cracker style pizzas this weekend...so I've been reading through this thread this morning.

I'm planning on using a food processor to mix the dough...docking both sides of the skins...using 14" cutter pans...and pre-baking for a few minutes.

To make the dough easier to roll out, I'm thinking about using sous vide. I'd vac seal each dough ball, and let them sit in 110 degree water for 15-30 minutes or so. Has anyone tried this? Any thoughts/worries/etc? TIA!

I agree with RHawthorne.  However, after you have rolled out and cut your dough, I recommend par-baking in the home oven for 2-3 minutes .

[stickyD]

As a newbie can I please ask is 'cracker' the same as 'thin-crust?' I have been drooling on these guys' pizzas @burattinopizza in CA and they say thin crust. Thanks for any advice! Dean

[RHawthorne]

As a newbie can I please ask is 'cracker' the same as 'thin-crust?' I have been drooling on these guys' pizzas @burattinopizza in CA and they say thin crust. Thanks for any advice! Dean

I would say that cracker crust is a substyle of thin crust, but some might disagree with that assertion. It is definitely a distinctly different thing from crust styles that don't go for as crispy a body. This is one of those topics where I doubt you'll get a broad consensus on one answer or another.

[bobgraff]

I'd say the level of crunchiness is what defines a cracker crust.  I would describe Donatos as thin crust, but it's too soft to be considered a cracker crust.

[john_k]

Just made this today, using the food processor 50% hydration recipe with baking soda, using high gluten flour, for a 14 inch pie. I was surprised there was no sugar, but it browned pretty well.

The dough sat on the counter almost 24 hours, then went into the fridge for another 24 hours. It just about doubled in the first few hours on the counter. I preheated the oven with steel at 550, but forgot to turn down the temp at first, but did so after a few minutes. Used parchment paper at first, but no pan. It probably cooked for a total of 8-9 minutes; I will keep better track next time.

It was really good, a different texture than I am used to in my usual Chicago tavern style. "Cracker" is a very good name for it.

I will try a lower hydration next time. I wish I had taken pics before finishing it :-). I think this one will go into the rotation also.

[john_k]

Looking back to find the recipe I used, I see it was the Tom Lehman cracker style formulation https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5173.0, which has a higher hydration than the DKM formulation.

Sorry for posting this in the wrong thread.

[bnew17]

Can 00 Caputo flour be used to make the cracker crust dough?

[Pete-zza]

Can 00 Caputo flour be used to make the cracker crust dough?

bnew17,

No doubt somewhere along the way some member tried using Caputo 00 flour to make a cracker style pizza. In your case, is the Caputo 00 flour the only flour you have available to you to attempt a cracker style dough? If so, do you have access to vital wheat gluten and/or diastatic malt? In the meantime, I will try to determine if others have actually used a 00 flour for a cracker style dough.

Peter

[Randy]

I just read all 13 pages of this thread.  An amazing journey to say the least thinking back to those first few days of the Pizza making Forum (Thank you Steve)

Thank you, Peter, for suggesting I go back to this thread. 

One thing that keep coming up while reading this thread was dough temperature.  This makes me think back to how hot it must have been in the pizza making area of restaurants like Pizza Inn.  That had to influence the finished pizza.  I think Peter's Proofing box simulates some of those conditions.

In an effort to eliminate pre-baking, I might try letting the bare, rolled out skin rest in a warm area until bubbles show then dock.

[Kman]

Hi Pete,

I could not stretch these pizzas more than 12". Anymore and they would tear in the center. What are your thoughts on that?

Meanwhile I used the 00 flour to conduct another experiment. I made cracker style pizzas using the following formulation:

Dough: 1 kg
Semolina: 12 g
Water: 450 g
Sugar: 15 g
IDY: 10 g
Salt: 15 g
Oil: 20 g

The low hydration made the dough quite difficult to knead at first. However, after about 5 minutes of hard work I let the dough rest for about 30 mins covered with a steel bowl. When i came back to it there was some rise and the dough had become soft and pliable. I kneaded it for another 10 minutes, before placing in an oiled steel container which went into the refrigerator for around 20 hours. After this I let the dough rest at room temperature for around an hour before forming the dough balls and then proceeding to dress the pies and bake in my deck oven (with 300 C top and bottom temps)

Here are the results: I got a fabulous thin, crispy, chewy dough.

Pete some questions:
1. You mention the use of a cutter pan for thin crusts pizzas. Can you send me a link to this please
2. You sent me a link earlier of a pizza making guide of a company in Boston I think. They had useful information on tools, dough boxes, topping cups etc. Please can you send me the link here again I seem to have lost it


 

[Pete-zza]

Kman,

To better assist you in answering why you could not stretch the skins to more than 12", can you show me the recipe you used, including all of the ingredients and their amounts, and also what kind and brand of flour you used? Also, please tell us how you make and manage the dough.

With respect to the cutter pan, my recollection is that I purchased it from PizzaTools. Their website is at:

https://pizzatools.com/cutter-pans.html

You will note from the above website that PizzaTools is a part of Lloyd Pans. So, one can purchase from Lloyd also, at:

https://lloydpans.com/cutter-pans.html

As for the pizzamaking guide you mentioned, I do not recall sending you a link to such a guide. To try to jog my memory, I looked at all of your posts on the forum and I also did an Advanced forum search of all of my posts that were directed to you, and I came up empty. Maybe you can give me a bit more information.

Peter