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Offline ButteredPizza

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #780 on: June 20, 2022, 03:43:13 PM »
If you think about it, a high gluten flour has a more or less even distribution of carbs, proteins and nutrients in every particle of ground flour. When you add water, there is protein everywhere and creates a consistent gluten matrix that has a certain strength and can last X number of hours before deterioration.

On the other hand, if you combine weak flour with gluten powder, even if you mix it well, you have a blend of weak flour with weak proteins and every once in a while a strong 100% gluten particle. The gluten net that will be created will not be uniform, and the parts that have more gluten will be stronger and parts with less will still be as weak as that weak flour. The whole net will not survive the same length of time as a strong flour would. Can you really guarantee a perfectly even blending of gluten and weak flour? Not really.

Youre totally welcome to experiment with this, but why not just buy the stronger flour and save yourself the trouble? There are dozens of strong flours to choose from. Why make your life harder? Just my 2c.

Well, that does make sense, however, I'm not sure we can discount that the VWG does change the behavior of the dough.  It certainly does, and I've used it effectively when making bagels.  There's an answer somewhere between the two :)

The cost of nuovolo flour is not something I'm willing to pay for (~$20 USD for a small bag right now? nope); when I can get my hands on it I'm still curious to check out this technique.  I have the other ingredients already on hand, so might as well play with them, and share my results :)  I have access to some bread flours which have a "13%" protein, but in reading this forum, that's measured slightly differently due to moisture content and ends up around the mid 12% when compared all things equal to the italian stuff.  That, and no w index are documented.  The pasta flour is a strong flour, just not quite up there.  We also have central milling flours, and these have large protein amounts, but they are made from hard wheats and again, no w index published.

Offline ButteredPizza

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #781 on: July 03, 2022, 06:35:59 PM »
Family of mine really likes the canotto style, which is why I haven't given up.  Brickovenbaker has shut his doors so can't find the nuvola super at reasonable cost anymore.  However, I was able to source central milling's reinforced pizza flour, which has a published w index 340-360.  Followed masterbiga program at 70F and the original recipe at the beginning of this topic.  I let bulk go to 25 hours in the fridge, before balling.

Result was a denser cornicone than with the VWG test the other week.  I made four dough balls, and left over dough was flattened into my cast iron and baked at 400F, went into my indoor oven same time I baked the pizza in the ardore.  You can see the "foccacia" has good cell development in the crumb, if a bit dense, so I am ruling out fermentation.  It's a biggacia :)

Any ideas?  Opening technique?  I was very careful, pushed from center to outer edge, and used the palm-twisting motion.  It just felt like I was pushing dough to the edges, not air.  There were a few large bubbles that I had to pop.  Due to thickness of the cornicone, I had trouble fully baking it (I kept the oven 750-850F, still too much).

Offline DoouBall

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Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #782 on: July 03, 2022, 11:09:33 PM »
Family of mine really likes the canotto style, which is why I haven't given up.  Brickovenbaker has shut his doors so can't find the nuvola super at reasonable cost anymore.  However, I was able to source central milling's reinforced pizza flour, which has a published w index 340-360.  Followed masterbiga program at 70F and the original recipe at the beginning of this topic.  I let bulk go to 25 hours in the fridge, before balling.

Result was a denser cornicone than with the VWG test the other week.  I made four dough balls, and left over dough was flattened into my cast iron and baked at 400F, went into my indoor oven same time I baked the pizza in the ardore.  You can see the "foccacia" has good cell development in the crumb, if a bit dense, so I am ruling out fermentation.  It's a biggacia :)

Any ideas?  Opening technique?  I was very careful, pushed from center to outer edge, and used the palm-twisting motion.  It just felt like I was pushing dough to the edges, not air.  There were a few large bubbles that I had to pop.  Due to thickness of the cornicone, I had trouble fully baking it (I kept the oven 750-850F, still too much).
The CM 00 reinforced is a good choice for biga, glad you found it.

Fermenting at 70F means youre probably trying to make a biga at room temp - thats a bit if a gamble. Do you have a wine chiller you can set to 16-18C? Much more consistent. The biga can become unbalanced at 70F and especially if your temp actually fluctuates throughout the fermentation process, if you have drafts from fan or AC, etc.

From the looks of your pizza, your biga may be a bit overfermented while your main dough may be a bit underfermented, although its really hard to know which for sure. Im just not seeing the massive amount of air that normally comes when doing a biga. Your gluten looks tight as if the dough balls havent doubled yet before you baked them.

The focaccia looks really nice though! I bet your enjoyed that.

I would recommend that you skip the bulk phase when using 30%+ biga. This will help you a lot in achieving a good result. And also make sure your dough balls are absolutely pumped with air before stretching.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2022, 11:11:24 PM by DoouBall »
Alex

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #783 on: July 04, 2022, 12:07:33 AM »
In case others are also interested in trying to make doughs with biga but having trouble, I'd like to summarize a 10 common errors in processing biga that I learned from Marco Fuso, Piergiorgio Giorilli, and Paolo Spadaro.

1. Using the wrong flour for biga. Yes, you can make biga with Caputo Pizzeria, but then you have to shorten fermentation to 12 hours and you won't get the same characteristics. It will not be able to tolerate 18-20h at 18C. Ideal flour for biga is w320-350.

2. Refreshing the biga with the wrong flour. If you're doing a biga less than 100%, you will be adding some flour when making your final dough - this is called refreshment. If refreshing the dough for use same day, you want weak flour (w200-220 is ideal). If you need your balls to go in the fridge, you want something stronger (w290-w300).

3. Using MasterBiga with room temperature and assuming your temperature is stable. This is a big one. MasterBiga is a great app, but unless your room temperature holds the exact same temp for the duration of your fermentation, and you have 0 cold/warm drafts to alter the biga temperature, your results will be unpredictable. For example if you're fermenting your biga overnight and it's 70F when you go to sleep, how confident are you that your temp doesn't drop to 67F or even 65F at night? If it changes that much, your MasterBiga calculation will be useless. If you don't have a wine cooler or fermentation chamber set to 16-18C, your best best is to use a fridge biga (55-60% hydration), 1h room temp, 24 hours in the fridge, same % yeast.

4. Undermixing the biga. There are so many bad YouTube videos showing methods to mix biga that are just wrong. The no-stress biga method popularized by Roberta Susta leads to undermixed biga with loose flour that rots instead of fermenting. Correctly mixed biga is not kneaded but has no loose flour and doesn't appear powdery or floury. Well mixed biga ends up in medium-sized chunks like gnochetti or little meatballs - this takes at least 3-6 minutes to achieve rather than the 1-2 minute no-stress shake method.

5. Not controlling the temperature of the biga at the end of mixing. This is key. The rule is 55C - temp of flour - ambient temp = water temp for the biga (in Celcius). Your biga should end up at 20-21C if you are fermenting at 16-18C. If you close the biga too cold or too hot, again that affects the number of hours of fermentation and can increase or reduce them which will mess up your recipe. On the other hand, if you're fermenting your biga in the fridge, close it a bit warmer, at 22-23C because the 4C fridge will obviously slow it down more than 16-18C wine cooler.

6. Underfermenting/over fermenting the biga. At the end of fermentation, the biga should be swollen and should smell slightly yogurty and alcoholic, not overly intense or super sour. If it's dense and not swollen, it's not ready. If it has risen and fallen you should not use it because it will make your dough overly tenacious.

7. Doubling the bulk dough. Only double the dough if you're making pizza in teglia/pala/pinsa/bread. If you're making round pizza, you want extensible dough. Biga has already strengthened your dough so you don't need more strengthening from a long bulk. Skip the bulk and make the balls within 20-60 minutes off the mixer. Thank me later.

8. Not doubling the balls. If your balls don't double, or even 2.5 times their original size, they will lack the extensibility to make great pizza. Biga tightens the gluten, so allowing the balls to double or more helps relax the gluten so that the pizza can grow nicely in the oven.

9. Poorly managing dough balls. First, you need to give your dough balls at least 30-60 mins at room temp to start the fermentation before you put them in the fridge. Otherwise, you risk the yeast going immediately into stasis and will not get a good rise later in the oven. Secondly, you need to remove the dough balls from the fridge 2-4 hours before you bake otherwise they will be cold, tight, won't complete the fermentation, and won't open nicely in the oven.

10. Using the wrong % of biga. Only use 80-100% biga if you plan to bake the same day. If you want to bake the following day, you can use 30-50% biga.

Hope this is helpful to those struggling to achieve the results they want with biga doughs.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2022, 05:18:17 PM by DoouBall »
Alex

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Offline soler

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #784 on: July 04, 2022, 02:37:58 AM »
In case others are also interested in trying to make doughs with biga but having trouble, I'd like to summarize a 10 common errors in processing biga that I learned from Marco Fuso, Piergiorgio Giorilli and most recently Gabriele Valdes.

1. Using the wrong flour for biga. Yes, you can make biga with Caputo Pizzeria, but then you have to shorten fermentation to 12 hours and you won't get the same characteristics. It will not be able to tolerate 18-20h at 18C. Ideal flour for biga is w320-350.

2. Refreshing the biga with the wrong flour. If you're doing a biga less than 100%, you will be adding some flour when making your final dough - this is called refreshment. If refreshing the dough for use same day, you want weak flour (w200-220 is ideal). If you need your balls to go in the fridge, you want something stronger (w290-w300).

3. Using MasterBiga with room temperature and assuming your temperature is stable. This is a big one. MasterBiga is a great app, but unless your room temperature holds the exact same temp for the duration of your fermentation, and you have 0 cold/warm drafts to alter the biga temperature, your results will be unpredictable. For example if you're fermenting your biga overnight and it's 70F when you go to sleep, how confident are you that your temp doesn't drop to 67F or even 65F at night? If it changes that much, your MasterBiga calculation will be useless. If you don't have a wine cooler or fermentation chamber set to 16-18C, your best best is to use a fridge biga (55-60% hydration), 1h room temp, 24 hours in the fridge, same % yeast.

4. Undermixing the biga. There are so many bad YouTube videos showing methods to mix biga that are just wrong. The no-stress biga method popularized by Roberta Susta leads to undermixed biga with loose flour that rots instead of fermenting. Correctly mixed biga is not kneaded but has no loose flour and doesn't appear powdery or floury. Well mixed biga ends up in medium-sized chunks like gnochetti or little meatballs - this takes at least 3-6 minutes to achieve rather than the 1-2 minute no-stress shake method.

5. Not controlling the temperature of the biga at the end of mixing. This is key. The rule is 55C - temp of flour - ambient temp = water temp for the biga (in Celcius). Your biga should end up at 20-21C if you are fermenting at 16-18C. If you close the biga too cold or too hot, again that affects the number of hours of fermentation and can increase or reduce them which will mess up your recipe. On the other hand, if you're fermenting your biga in the fridge, close it a bit warmer, at 22-23C because the 4C fridge will obviously slow it down more than 16-18C wine cooler.

6. Underfermenting/over fermenting the biga. At the end of fermentation, the biga should be swollen and should smell slightly yogurty and alcoholic, not overly intense or super sour. If it's dense and not swollen, it's not ready. If it has risen and fallen you should not use it because it will make your dough overly tenacious.

7. Doubling the bulk dough. Only double the dough if you're making pizza in teglia/pala/pinsa/bread. If you're making round pizza, you want extensible dough. Biga has already strengthened your dough so you don't need more strengthening from a long bulk. Skip the bulk and make the balls within 20-60 minutes off the mixer. Thank me later.

8. Not doubling the balls. If your balls don't double, or even 2.5 times their original size, they will lack the extensibility to make great pizza. Biga tightens the gluten, so allowing the balls to double or more helps relax the gluten so that the pizza can grow nicely in the oven.

9. Poorly managing dough balls. First, you need to give your dough balls at least 30-60 mins at room temp to start the fermentation before you put them in the fridge. Otherwise, you risk the yeast going immediately into stasis and will not get a good rise later in the oven. Secondly, you need to remove the dough balls from the fridge 2-4 hours before you bake otherwise they will be cold, tight, won't complete the fermentation, and won't open nicely in the oven.

10. Using the wrong % of biga. Only use 80-100% biga if you plan to bake the same day. If you want to bake the following day, you can use 30-50% biga.

Hope this is helpful to those struggling to achieve the results they want with biga doughs.

That's a great post!

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Offline ButteredPizza

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #785 on: July 04, 2022, 10:03:11 AM »
The CM 00 reinforced is a good choice for biga, glad you found it.

Fermenting at 70F means youre probably trying to make a biga at room temp - thats a bit if a gamble. Do you have a wine chiller you can set to 16-18C? Much more consistent. The biga can become unbalanced at 70F and especially if your temp actually fluctuates throughout the fermentation process, if you have drafts from fan or AC, etc.

From the looks of your pizza, your biga may be a bit overfermented while your main dough may be a bit underfermented, although its really hard to know which for sure. Im just not seeing the massive amount of air that normally comes when doing a biga. Your gluten looks tight as if the dough balls havent doubled yet before you baked them.

The focaccia looks really nice though! I bet your enjoyed that.

I would recommend that you skip the bulk phase when using 30%+ biga. This will help you a lot in achieving a good result. And also make sure your dough balls are absolutely pumped with air before stretching.
Biga and final balled and focaccia all fermented inside wine fridge.  Wine fridge connected to an inkbird temp controller.  Also have a heating pad inside, connected to inkbird, and a fan.  While there is a fluctuation in temp (+/- 2F), it averages to 70F/21C.  33% biga, 67% hydration final dough.  The bigaccia and dough balls were fermented together in the wine fridge before baking. 

The bulk proof was done in my regular fridge, I kept a narrow jar with 80g dough during bulk to monitor rise.  After 20 hours, it was around 30% rise, so I let bulk go a bit longer to about 40% (5 hours) before I balled dough and pushed out foccacia into the pan. Dough balls doubled.  I have pictures of all this if it helps.  When I make bread, I usually let bulk go 50-60% rise based on my spyglass.

I'm happy to share the exact process, timing, etc, but any differences are unlikely culprits. What I'm confused about is how it was just dough in the cornicone, with almost no rise, whereas the bigaccia had some oven spring and showed good cell structure, if a bit dense.  Refreshment flour was a weak flour.  W-index not available.  Maybe this flour was too weak, but.. I've used the flour just fine to make sourdoughs and even regular sourdough neapolitan pizza.

Note, I was using IDY here, not sourdough.  I'm new to IDY.

I'd like to try this one more time before giving up and passing it to family member and let him figure it out himself.

Offline DoouBall

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #786 on: July 04, 2022, 11:41:16 AM »
Biga and final balled and focaccia all fermented inside wine fridge.  Wine fridge connected to an inkbird temp controller.  Also have a heating pad inside, connected to inkbird, and a fan.  While there is a fluctuation in temp (+/- 2F), it averages to 70F/21C.  33% biga, 67% hydration final dough.  The bigaccia and dough balls were fermented together in the wine fridge before baking. 

The bulk proof was done in my regular fridge, I kept a narrow jar with 80g dough during bulk to monitor rise.  After 20 hours, it was around 30% rise, so I let bulk go a bit longer to about 40% (5 hours) before I balled dough and pushed out foccacia into the pan. Dough balls doubled.  I have pictures of all this if it helps.  When I make bread, I usually let bulk go 50-60% rise based on my spyglass.

I'm happy to share the exact process, timing, etc, but any differences are unlikely culprits. What I'm confused about is how it was just dough in the cornicone, with almost no rise, whereas the bigaccia had some oven spring and showed good cell structure, if a bit dense.  Refreshment flour was a weak flour.  W-index not available.  Maybe this flour was too weak, but.. I've used the flour just fine to make sourdoughs and even regular sourdough neapolitan pizza.

Note, I was using IDY here, not sourdough.  I'm new to IDY.

I'd like to try this one more time before giving up and passing it to family member and let him figure it out himself.

Your process really sounds fine, to be honest - it's not immediately apparent where any issues might have occurred. Did you make your dough balls rise at room temperature? Were they absolutely swollen with air (more so than direct dough) before you stretched them out? When you stretched them out, could you see a clear difference between the airy and light cornicione and the flat middle area before baking?

Watch this video to see how to stretch easily. After trying dozens of techniques, this one is still my go to - it's just so easy when you stretch with one hand at a time to push the air from the middle to the outside without crushing any part of the cornicione.



The stretching starts about 7:50s into the video. 

Since you have such an awesome wine cooler set up, please try if possible to set your temperature to 16-18C which translates to 60-64F, and ferment your biga for 18 hours. This is the correct traditional method to balance the lactic and acetic acids in the biga and will give you the best result. Make sure you don't underknead your biga - get it to the point of small meatballs, no loose flour. And ferment until the biga is swollen but not risen and fallen. Gabriele Valdes taught me that fermenting at 21C (70F) can lead to an unbalanced biga, so he prefers either 16-18C wine cooler or 4C fridge but not temps in between.

Another thing - if you're using American flours like CM, you may want to bump up your hydration to 70% or even higher. The dough should feel very soft and maybe a bit sticky. US flours absorb a lot more water than Italian ones on average, and your flour may just need more water to be extensible and create an open crumb.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2022, 11:43:06 AM by DoouBall »
Alex

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #787 on: July 04, 2022, 11:54:06 AM »

Offline DoouBall

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #788 on: July 04, 2022, 12:06:35 PM »
Alex

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Offline ButteredPizza

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #789 on: July 04, 2022, 12:38:48 PM »
Your process really sounds fine, to be honest - it's not immediately apparent where any issues might have occurred. Did you make your dough balls rise at room temperature? Were they absolutely swollen with air (more so than direct dough) before you stretched them out? When you stretched them out, could you see a clear difference between the airy and light cornicione and the flat middle area before baking?

Watch this video to see how to stretch easily. After trying dozens of techniques, this one is still my go to - it's just so easy when you stretch with one hand at a time to push the air from the middle to the outside without crushing any part of the cornicione.

((video snipped))

The stretching starts about 7:50s into the video. 

Since you have such an awesome wine cooler set up, please try if possible to set your temperature to 16-18C which translates to 60-64F, and ferment your biga for 18 hours. This is the correct traditional method to balance the lactic and acetic acids in the biga and will give you the best result. Make sure you don't underknead your biga - get it to the point of small meatballs, no loose flour. And ferment until the biga is swollen but not risen and fallen. Gabriele Valdes taught me that fermenting at 21C (70F) can lead to an unbalanced biga, so he prefers either 16-18C wine cooler or 4C fridge but not temps in between.

Another thing - if you're using American flours like CM, you may want to bump up your hydration to 70% or even higher. The dough should feel very soft and maybe a bit sticky. US flours absorb a lot more water than Italian ones on average, and your flour may just need more water to be extensible and create an open crumb.
Hi:
To answer your questions:
 - Dough balls rose at 70F/21C in the wine fridge, between 5 and 6 hours (baked first at 5 last one at 6).
 - When pressing out the ball, a few large air pockets bubble up at the cornicone, I pop these
 - I can't air-spin the dough yet like dude does in the video, I spread it out on the bench
 - my dough this time did not open as easily as his, it pulled back a lot more; the first time when I made it with a weaker flour and VWG, the dough did open up easier
 - the biga at 15.5 hours had a pleasant aroma, it wasn't overpowering.

I'll try upping the hydration to 70% and ferment at a lower temperature.  I used 70F because that's what I thought you were using at the first page of this topic :)

Here's the process in its entirety:
+7:30pm: mix 2g idy with 330g cm flour, pour in 150g water, make crumble mix, cover and into wine fridge 70F for 15.5 hours (master biga says 15 hours 33 min)
+11am next morning: refresh
  - in my viking 7qt stand mixer, put in 670g simple truth organic all purpose flour (it's a weak flour) hand mix in biga, start machine
  - pour 1/3 water, keep mixer going, then once dough appears to come together, repeat until all water is gone
  - I forget how long I mixed, but it was maybe 10 minutes, add 20g olive oil, mix until incorporated (another five), then add 25g salt and mix until incorporated (also about 5 minutes)
  - total mixing 20 minutes, finish dough temp 76F, 24C -- note, I mixed to strong gluten formation, this could be the mistake? if so, why did the foccacia have spring and the cornicone not?
  - tear off 80g piece and stick into small jar
  - when done, transfer to bowl, and into regular fridge (along with jar), I haven't measured my fridge in a while but it is set between 36 and 38F.
+Next day, 20 hours later at 7am, jar showed about 30% rise, so I let it go another 5 hours to between 40% and 50% rise
+At noon, take out of fridge, divide in 4 280g dough balls, and press out rest into cast iron pan, cover, into wine fridge at 70F/21C
+ baked between 5 and 6pm

It took at least 10 minutes in the mixer for the globules of biga to become absorbed into the dough.  The dough balls were stuck to the lid of my proofing tray, but came off easily without much disruption to the dough balls.

The biga looks like it has some free-flour, it did not.  ALso, it was clumped together after fermentation, but easy to tear apart.

The spyglass showed my dough at somewhere between 125-175%.  I generally don't use the spyglass as a gauge for the final part, only the bulk.  Since this is really my first try in a long time with IDY vs sourdough, I'm beginning to think the problem was both overkneading, and possibly a mix of overfermentation/underfermentation as you pointed out already.  What should I change in the above besides hydration and fermenting temp?  What temp should I ferment the dough balls at?
« Last Edit: July 04, 2022, 12:40:45 PM by ButteredPizza »

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #790 on: July 04, 2022, 05:12:50 PM »
Thanks for explaining your process and adding pictures. I appreciate that you followed the original recipe in the thread - please bear in mind that this was just the beginning of my biga journey and I no longer do this. I typically ferment at 16-18C because that produces the best results.

Your biga is undermixed. It should be mixed to the point of small meatballs - there should be no small pieces floating around in your preferment - only fully incorporated chunks of preferment. It looks like you are about halfway there. Mixing until you have stracciatella shapes is insufficient. The proof that your biga was undermixed is that your final biga looks almost identical to your starting biga - it does not look swollen. For reference, I'm including pictures of undermixed biga, correctly mixed biga and fully fermented correctly mixed biga. The correctly mixed biga is all meatballs, no flour and no small or even smallish pieces anywhere. Also, make sure that all your IDY is fully dissolved in the water before adding to the flour. A good way to think about it is that a fully fermented biga should resemble a sponge once you take it out of the container - it should all be one thing, not a bunch of small pieces or chunks anymore. That should help achieve better results next time.

The second issue that I see, is that you're using a weak flour to refresh your biga, but you're waiting until the next day to bake. If you refresh with a weak flour, you must bake same day. If you're baking next day, you need to refresh with a medium-strong flour (around w300).

Also, next time, skip the bulk and go straight to balls after you're done with the mixer.

76F (24C) is a good final dough temperature if you're baking same day. If you're baking the next day, try to end somewhere around 19-20C if you can. 22C max. Otherwise your dough is too hot and will ferment prematurely before you're ready to use it.

One other issue that I notice is that your dough balls are tearing on the top. This is most likely because you overtightened them during shaping. Try not to make cannonballs. The top needs to be smooth and ideally tight, but not tight enough to tear or it will cause you problems during stretching/baking.

As far as ball fermentation temperature, it doesn't matter. As long as the balls at least double and look filled with gas, then you're ready to bake. Hope all this helps.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2022, 11:48:18 PM by DoouBall »
Alex

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Offline ButteredPizza

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #791 on: July 06, 2022, 11:34:12 AM »
Thank you for the help Alex, I think I have enough to go on.  The tearing at the top of the balls was due to them growing into the lid, not due to shaping.

There is a little info here that may almost conflict with what I remember reading earlier in the thread, but I may be confusing it with something else or perhaps I misunderstood, and since I don't want to re-read the whole thing now, I will incorporate all your suggestions.  There is one important point I recall, too - one should not cover the biga completely airtight, right?  I put plastic wrap and poked holes the first time (and had a modicum rise/poof), but this second time, I forgot and put a lid on the bowl.  While the lid is not absolutely airtight, it's for sure much more constricting than plastic wrap with holes.  I'll also pick up new yeast, just to rule out slow yeast.

I was doing the overnight bulk to mimic what was in the first post (and there are many posts later in the thread which suggest using the first one as a starting point).  I'll try same day baking since no fridge works so much better for my schedule. :)  Will report back next time I bake.

Offline DoouBall

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #792 on: July 07, 2022, 12:52:19 PM »
Please see comments inline below

Thank you for the help Alex, I think I have enough to go on.  The tearing at the top of the balls was due to them growing into the lid, not due to shaping.

-Got it; I would recommend either fermenting in a dough box like DoughMate or in individual plastic tupperware. If your dough balls are touching at the top and tearing, you will lose gas and end up with a flatter pizza. You really want that extra room on the top.

I use this one when I have 4-6 dough balls
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00449IEM4/?tag=pmak-20

And this one when making just 2-3:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Ziploc-Container-Medium-Round-3-ct/170622708

There is a little info here that may almost conflict with what I remember reading earlier in the thread, but I may be confusing it with something else or perhaps I misunderstood, and since I don't want to re-read the whole thing now, I will incorporate all your suggestions.  There is one important point I recall, too - one should not cover the biga completely airtight, right?  I put plastic wrap and poked holes the first time (and had a modicum rise/poof), but this second time, I forgot and put a lid on the bowl.  While the lid is not absolutely airtight, it's for sure much more constricting than plastic wrap with holes.  I'll also pick up new yeast, just to rule out slow yeast.

-Yes, it's ideal to cover the biga container with plastic wrap and poke a few small holes in it. If you use a lid and don't close it all the way, you're leaving a big air gap and your biga will dry up too much on the top. The plastic with holes poked only serves to allow extra air to escape, but it doesn't allow the top of biga to dry up too badly.

I was doing the overnight bulk to mimic what was in the first post (and there are many posts later in the thread which suggest using the first one as a starting point).  I'll try same day baking since no fridge works so much better for my schedule. :)  Will report back next time I bake.

-Doing a biga dough with bulk fermentation works as well but it makes the dough quite strong for round pizza. This was the method I started with, but then I took several professional pizza classes and learned that a short bulk is better with a dough intended for round pizza and utilizing biga or poolish. The longer bulk is best for medium-thick to thick crust pizza styles or for bread. Try both ways - I bet you'll like the short bulk better.

« Last Edit: July 08, 2022, 12:09:14 AM by DoouBall »
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline ButteredPizza

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #793 on: July 09, 2022, 01:47:15 PM »
Progress but problems.  When I refreshed the biga, I used cold water in the refresh since ambient temps were in the mid 70s and then wished I had used fridge cold flour as well.  After 10 minutes mixing, DT was 78F, the biga was not fully absorbed yet, and gluten wasn't strong enough (generally takes 15-20 minutes in my mixer if I won't be doing any bulk or long ferment).  Added oil and salt anyway, mixed five more minutes to incorporate - typically I do these separate and only after the gluten begins showing development, however, given the DT, decided to just put them in together and wrap it up.  Balling up was challenge as the dough was sticky due to incomplete gluten development, but I made it work.  In the photo, you can see the biga. 

Gut told me to put the balls back in the 65F wine fridge, however, decided to leave the balls out at room temp. Two hours later, the balls were about 200% rise per my spy glass.  I wasn't hungry yet so I moved everything to my 65F wine fridge to slow it down some, since the half-sheet pan doesn't fit into my regular refrigerator.  When it was time to bake, probably 300% rise (4x hahaha).  Dough was soft, easy to stretch out, not unwieldy. 

I baked around 700F this time, and used a well preheated corderite kiln shelf inside the ardore rather than the saputo bricks - I wanted faster heat transfer thinking it might help the spring.

The cornicone shows good fermentation, but not enough lift.  It was light, not dense.  Almost there.  I'm wondering if a rise to 100-200% over 5-6 hours would give me more spring.  Not sure. 

Offline Don Fredo

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #794 on: November 02, 2022, 08:45:39 AM »
Hi Guys,

this thread is very helpful for me, I am a Biga-Pizza lover :-).
I was very very happy with my last bake, its a 100% Biga Pizza with 73 % hydration, the best Pizzas I have ever bake. I used a little bit Malt, the crust was perfect for me.

Best regards from Berlin


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Offline Don Fredo

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #795 on: December 01, 2022, 06:51:33 AM »
Hi Guys,

I have a Biga question. In my last few bakes I used between 0,4% & 0,47% CY for the Biga, with ~44h CF at 4C for the Biga and ~3,5 h at 20C for the main dough/balls. That works very well.
The Master Biga App gives me for 1% CY nearly 18h for 18C und it says you can also do 24h at 4C in the fridge. But if you look, for example in the Craig yeast table, you can see that you get ~0,2% CY for the 18C/18h version and 1% for the 4C/24h.
I dont understand that this two options should have nearly the same leavening properties because the first option has 5 times more yeast in comparation to the second.

Did anybody try to proof the Biga first time at RT and after that one day more in the fridge?

Best regards
Don Fredo

Offline ButteredPizza

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #796 on: December 16, 2022, 08:20:43 PM »
Had to take a bit of a break from pizza, and on the return, decided to give this style one more shot, but sourdough this time instead of commercial yeast.  I roughly followed the general idea here: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=58510.msg687009#msg687009

Results were possibly the best pizza I've baked so far since 2018 - very light, tender, lightly crisp.  I've never had one bake in under a minute before, this one did!  I don't think I quite got a canotto style, this seems more like a neapolitan, but no matter, the results were delicious.  Only negative: I think the dough was slightly underbaked, and I would've liked the crust to brown just a little more.

Offline Don Fredo

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #797 on: December 19, 2022, 05:13:02 AM »
Last time I tried to combine room temp and fridgen temp proofing with 100% Biga. After 12 hours @18C I put it in the fridge @4C for 32 h. The dough was nice too, but in compare with only cold proofing I dont get a better taste. But I get problems with holes while the opening.


Offline LaGaby

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #798 on: January 24, 2023, 04:27:19 AM »
Hi everyone,
I have a couple of questions and sorry if they have already been asked (this thread is getting nice and long)

Firstly, can a flour be too strong for doing a biga? I'm currently using a 340w for 24hrs @ 14c (masterbiga calculation) but I was wondering, does the temperature you ferment at alter the required strength of flour? For example if I was to ferment at colder temps would I use a weaker flour and vise versa for warmer temps use a stronger flour?
I use 40% biga refreshing with a stronger flour (390w) to use the next day. Does this sound too strong and should I be switching these flours (using 390w for the biga)? All dellagiovanna flours.

Secondly, I'm after a bit of consistency in my dough. My dough is generally nice but there are those occasions when it just pops. I know I should be noting down everything I do each time but I'm running a business and that's not always feasible. But I'm wondering, if I'm fermenting my biga at 14c, what temp should I be closing the biga at? 

Thanks in advance!

Offline DoouBall

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Re: Pizza Canotto with Biga
« Reply #799 on: January 24, 2023, 11:39:17 AM »
Hi everyone,
I have a couple of questions and sorry if they have already been asked (this thread is getting nice and long)

Firstly, can a flour be too strong for doing a biga? I'm currently using a 340w for 24hrs @ 14c (masterbiga calculation) but I was wondering, does the temperature you ferment at alter the required strength of flour? For example if I was to ferment at colder temps would I use a weaker flour and vise versa for warmer temps use a stronger flour?
I use 40% biga refreshing with a stronger flour (390w) to use the next day. Does this sound too strong and should I be switching these flours (using 390w for the biga)? All dellagiovanna flours.

Secondly, I'm after a bit of consistency in my dough. My dough is generally nice but there are those occasions when it just pops. I know I should be noting down everything I do each time but I'm running a business and that's not always feasible. But I'm wondering, if I'm fermenting my biga at 14c, what temp should I be closing the biga at? 

Thanks in advance!

Hi Gaby, if you ferment at lower temperatures, you're slowing everything down so it's safer to use weaker flour with less concern about it overfermenting, blowing out and having a poor preferment that ruins your day. When a biga gets too old and using too weak of a flour that doesn't have enough strength, the gluten structure collapses and releases water. This means that when you knead your dough it won't take enough water and also, during baking, your dough may rise and collapse in the oven. Generally, the bigger risk is using a flour that is too weak for biga rather than too strong. If you use a stronger flour, you just have to ferment it longer for it to become tender post bake. The advantage of stronger flour is that your dough lasts longer and you can get more water into it if you are trying to up your hydration....downside is that if you don't ferment it enough it'll be very chewy.

When fermenting at the standard temperature of 16-18C, the rule of thumb is to ferment the biga for longer the stronger the flour is to achieve a tender dough even with strong flours:

weaker flour (w270-300): 8-12 hours
strong flour (w310-360): 16-20 hours
manitoba (w370+): 24 hours

I would really recommend fermenting at 16-18C if you can because you get the optimal ratio of 1:3 for acetic acid to lactic acid which will give you the best flavor. While I occasionally do a sponge at 4C, I notice it has more of a vinegary acidity (mostly acetic acid) and is a less pleasant flavor than a real biga fermented at 16-18C. I'm not sure what you'll get at 14C exactly - it's probably good enough but not as good as 16-18C.

I would not refresh with the w390 - that's too strong for refreshment flour. Normally, you would use your strong flour to make the biga and a weaker flour for refreshment. If you're baking same day you make dough, then anything in the w220-300 range works for refreshment, and weaker flours will give you more tender results. If you're baking next day, then w300-310 would be good. Molino Dallagiovanna La Napoletana (blue bag should be good since you're working with that brand).

Try to close your biga in the 19-21C range when fermenting at room temperature ranges like 14C or 16-18C. Close it much warmer at 23-25C when fermenting in the fridge at 4C. Maybe your MasterBiga app needs to be updated? Mine recommends fermenting biga for 19h 55m when fermenting at 14C, and using 52% hydration. I would either follow those times or change your fermentation temp.

Also, check out this video by a talented pizzaiolo. He explains also how to make your biga to arrive at the right final temps. Good luck!

« Last Edit: January 24, 2023, 11:45:42 AM by DoouBall »
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

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