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Author Topic: re-creating Scarr's pizza  (Read 16842 times)

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Offline jsaras

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Re: re-creating Scarr's pizza
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2019, 09:35:33 PM »
Yea, because a jump from 2% or 2.5% to 4% is soooooo large in the context of all that flour and water.  ::)

There’s a 100% difference between 2% and 4%.  It’s called math.
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: re-creating Scarr's pizza
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2019, 10:25:21 PM »


   Jump Cut!!!   😆
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Offline hotsawce

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Re: re-creating Scarr's pizza
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2019, 10:50:13 PM »
No duh, really? So let’s do the math, shall we?

Let’s say we’re making a 12” pie. 150g of that is flour, 90g of that is water. 240g doughball. 2% salt is 3 grams. 4% is 6 grams. A 3 g difference across an entire 12” pie, including the crust. 3g is a 3 finger pinch. That’s tiny.

Many professional operators use that amount or more, and it’s not “thirst inducing” like you make it out to be. If I had you do a taste test side by side, you’d hardy even notice. Scarr’s is up around that 4% mark. Others are, too, including a well regarded spot you attempted to call out on Instagram  :-D

Didn’t you claim you went from 2% to 2.2% and your pizza became “unbearably salty?” Sounds like user error to me. Or you have the Marvel equivalent of tastebuds


There’s a 100% difference between 2% and 4%.  It’s called math.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2019, 10:53:33 PM by hotsawce »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: re-creating Scarr's pizza
« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2019, 11:02:22 PM »


   Jump Cut!!  🤣
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Offline parallei

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Re: re-creating Scarr's pizza
« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2019, 11:11:02 PM »
No duh, really? So let’s do the math, shall we?.........

It is not simpley a matter of math.  It is a matter of the impact of the ingredient/amount on taste. As an extreme example, if one were to add 2% more water to a dough it is doubtful anyone would notice a difference in taste.  If one were to add 1% sugar to a dough that previously had none, most would not notice a difference in taste.  Salt, to me, is different creature and has a more pronounced and noticeable impact on taste.  I'm certain I would notice the difference between a 2% and 4% salt dough. 

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Offline jsaras

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Re: re-creating Scarr's pizza
« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2019, 11:22:40 PM »
No duh, really? So let’s do the math, shall we?

Let’s say we’re making a 12” pie. 150g of that is flour, 90g of that is water. 240g doughball. 2% salt is 3 grams. 4% is 6 grams. A 3 g difference across an entire 12” pie, including the crust. 3g is a 3 finger pinch. That’s tiny.

Many professional operators use that amount or more, and it’s not “thirst inducing” like you make it out to be. If I had you do a taste test side by side, you’d hardy even notice. Scarr’s is up around that 4% mark. Others are, too, including a well regarded spot you attempted to call out on Instagram  :-D

Didn’t you claim you went from 2% to 2.2% and your pizza became “unbearably salty?” Sounds like user error to me. Or you have the Marvel equivalent of tastebuds

3 grams is more than a half teaspoon.  A pinch is 0.10 teaspoon.  Your math and your tastebuds need calibration. 
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Offline jsaras

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Re: re-creating Scarr's pizza
« Reply #26 on: October 29, 2019, 11:54:04 PM »
It is not simpley a matter of math.  It is a matter of the impact of the ingredient/amount on taste. As an extreme example, if one were to add 2% more water to a dough it is doubtful anyone would notice a difference in taste.  If one were to add 1% sugar to a dough that previously had none, most would not notice a difference in taste.  Salt, to me, is different creature and has a more pronounced and noticeable impact on taste.  I'm certain I would notice the difference between a 2% and 4% salt dough.

Nailing the salt content is difficult to do and it requires significant forethought.  For pasta water, I use a 1% solution, but for brining chicken I use a 5% solution; and these figures work for my dishes that have other salted elements in them. 

I’ve had Neapolitan pizza dough with 2.8% salt that was tolerable because the other elements on the pizza were not salty (straight tomatoes and fresh mozz), and I’ve had NY dough at 2.2% that had me reaching for at least a quart of water afterwards.

I’ve often wondered how Tom Lehmann arrived at 1.75% salt.  Michael Ruhlman’s book “Ratio” defines bread dough as 60% water and 2% salt, which is basically a Lehmann dough as well. 

There are points where food is under-salted as well as over-salted and it is often the difference between a great dish and a bland one. 
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Offline bakeshack

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Re: re-creating Scarr's pizza
« Reply #27 on: October 29, 2019, 11:57:39 PM »
I would suggest to the skeptics to try it first with an open mind.   I’ve done it several times and have not noticed any “salty” flavor to the pizza  especially when you consider the overall experience with the balance of sauce, cheese, etc.  It’s far from salty and offensive to the tastebuds.  I don’t know.  Maybe my tastebuds are already immune from making and eating pizza almost everyday!  ???

If you try the formula, you will notice that the salt amount is perfect to hold the dough together and make it a bit stronger considering the slightly higher hydration and higher oil content in the dough. 
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 12:02:12 AM by bakeshack »

Offline hotsawce

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Re: re-creating Scarr's pizza
« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2019, 12:44:15 AM »
I literally weighed it out on a jewelers scale and held it in my hand before making that statement  :-D

You need to worry less abour salt and more about basic technique, Jonas. I do this for a living

3 grams is more than a half teaspoon.  A pinch is 0.10 teaspoon.  Your math and your tastebuds need calibration.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: re-creating Scarr's pizza
« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2019, 12:58:52 AM »
What about the salt level in consideration of fermentation.... And how/when salt it is applied during dough preparation?

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Offline classicalthunder

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Re: re-creating Scarr's pizza
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2019, 09:34:43 AM »
This looks very close. The dough skin in particular looks a lot like Scarr's. I wouldn't go up to 20% freshly milled. The video suggest white wheat for the fresh milled portion....

thanks for the input guys!  I think for the second round I'll do the following:

A) keep it at 15% and stick with the 'bolted' hard fresh flour (per @hotsawce)
B) try a 2-3 min bake, and 3-4 broil rather than my standard 1.5 min bake and 5 min broil to see if that improves the bottom
C) play around with the percentages, maybe try 4% salt, 3% oil, 2% sugar and see how that goes (per @bakeshake) and then i'll have a top line and a bottom line

also part of it is probably aesthetics, i need to work on better shaping dough (avoiding a thin middle) and getting the sauce and a better defined crust

I'm away for the next couple of weekends (one of which i'm on a brewery and pizza road trip tour!), so i'll be able to give it another whirl mid-month and will follow up with some updates!

Offline jsaras

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re-creating Scarr's pizza
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2019, 10:00:32 AM »
I literally weighed it out on a jewelers scale and held it in my hand before making that statement  :-D

You need to worry less abour salt and more about basic technique, Jonas. I do this for a living

If you’re willing to accept 100% variability in an ingredient, why do you bother with a scale at all?
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Offline bakeshack

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Re: re-creating Scarr's pizza
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2019, 02:13:38 PM »
Remember that this is a thread about recreating Scarr’s pizza and as far as I know (unless new and reliable info comes out), the salt level in their dough is quite high and is believed to be close or at 4%.  It doesn’t matter if you think 4% is beyond edible or not.  I was surprised as well but the dough I made did not taste ‘salty’ and certainly did not make me want to drink a quart or a gallon of water!  🤯. If you eat pizza and it makes you want to drink that much water, I guarantee you the first suspect would not be your dough!
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 02:16:40 PM by bakeshack »

Offline hotsawce

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Re: re-creating Scarr's pizza
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2019, 02:15:30 PM »
You should go back to making your mediocre looking cardboard pizzas (I'd send it back...) and keep the commentary to yourself. We were really close at getting classicalthunder to a Scarr's clone before you chimed in.

Your comment is really funny - your favorite pizzeria is Da Michele...a pizzeria that just eyeballs whatever goes in the mixer  :-D

If you’re willing to accept 100% variability in an ingredient, why do you bother with a scale at all?
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 02:17:50 PM by hotsawce »

Offline hotsawce

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Re: re-creating Scarr's pizza
« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2019, 02:25:46 PM »
No sugar. The oil looks to be between 3 and 4% to me - it looks like close to a full quart container in the video which would be closer to 4% but 3% is a good place to start. I would still suggest keeping the fresh flour around 10% for now.

when pressing, try to avoid the center of the dough. When you pick it up, that will stretch itself.

thanks for the input guys!  I think for the second round I'll do the following:

A) keep it at 15% and stick with the 'bolted' hard fresh flour (per @hotsawce)
B) try a 2-3 min bake, and 3-4 broil rather than my standard 1.5 min bake and 5 min broil to see if that improves the bottom
C) play around with the percentages, maybe try 4% salt, 3% oil, 2% sugar and see how that goes (per @bakeshake) and then i'll have a top line and a bottom line

also part of it is probably aesthetics, i need to work on better shaping dough (avoiding a thin middle) and getting the sauce and a better defined crust

I'm away for the next couple of weekends (one of which i'm on a brewery and pizza road trip tour!), so i'll be able to give it another whirl mid-month and will follow up with some updates!
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 02:29:12 PM by hotsawce »

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Offline bakeshack

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Re: re-creating Scarr's pizza
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2019, 02:30:03 PM »

when pressing, try to avoid the center of the dough. When you pick it up, that will stretch itself.

Exactly like this!  keep the center thick and it will even out when you pick it up.  No effort whatsoever. 

Offline classicalthunder

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Re: re-creating Scarr's pizza
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2019, 03:25:13 PM »
No sugar. The oil looks to be between 3 and 4% to me - it looks like close to a full quart container in the video which would be closer to 4% but 3% is a good place to start. I would still suggest keeping the fresh flour around 10% for now.

when pressing, try to avoid the center of the dough. When you pick it up, that will stretch itself.

Thanks, I try and do the edge stretch that Scott123 pointed out a while ago, but i guess practice makes perfect.

Do you think omitting the sugar will have a significant impact on browning?

Offline hotsawce

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Re: re-creating Scarr's pizza
« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2019, 04:52:35 PM »
If you want to replicate a Scarr's slice, Scarr's dough does not use sugar. I am unsure if his flour is malted but I don't believe so. His pies are adequately brown, but they also bake pretty hot. My guess is 620 to 650.

His dough is also pretty soft - there's a small amount of edge stretching but not much. It looks like 1) forming of the crust (important for the look of his pies,) 2) pressing around the crust area 3) a small edge stretch and finally 4) the back and forth motion between the arms for the final stretch.

He uses a little more dough than most and, with his slightly softer dough, you can do that arm motion without the dough getting too thin in the center.

Thanks, I try and do the edge stretch that Scott123 pointed out a while ago, but i guess practice makes perfect.

Do you think omitting the sugar will have a significant impact on browning?

Offline SuperTz

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Re: re-creating Scarr's pizza
« Reply #38 on: November 06, 2019, 09:13:33 PM »
Followed Bakeshack’s recipe to a T. Not salty at all with 4% salt. I’ve been making nothing but Detroit style for the past few months and apparently I’ve forgotten how to properly launch a pie into my oven so this is the only photo I took. Thanks for the recipe Marlon.

Offline hotsawce

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Re: re-creating Scarr's pizza
« Reply #39 on: November 07, 2019, 08:11:07 PM »
More photos! The color looks to be there....

Followed Bakeshack’s recipe to a T. Not salty at all with 4% salt. I’ve been making nothing but Detroit style for the past few months and apparently I’ve forgotten how to properly launch a pie into my oven so this is the only photo I took. Thanks for the recipe Marlon.

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