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Author Topic: Joe’s Pizza NYC dough and sauce.  (Read 13594 times)

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Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Joe’s Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
« Reply #40 on: November 21, 2020, 11:55:49 PM »
I'm probably one of the oddballs here (maybe even the only one), but I swear by my baking stone. I got a pretty good baking steel for Christmas last year, and I've given it every opportunity, in several side-by-side pizza cook-offs, and separately, and I still vastly prefer the pizzas made on my stone. I don't have any science to argue with; I just know what tastes best to me. I don't know what it is. I've tried the steel in different positions in the oven, with plenty of time to heat up, and there's just no comparison. The flavor of any crust made on the steel is just always lacking in comparison to ones made on the stone; kind of flat and muted. And the crispiness of the crust is not really any better either. I know what people will say when they read this: "you just haven't got a really good steel". But I don't care. I'll put my pizzas made on my stone up against a pizza made on a steel any time. I don't feel any need to go shopping for a better steel.
More than likely your dough recipes are such that they don't favor a faster bake. I doubt it is the quality of the steel unless it is something totally different than what most use. With broiler on and using my steel I can do a 3.5 minute pie vs. 7+ minutes on a stone. That will yield a different pizza entirely.

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Joe’s Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
« Reply #41 on: November 22, 2020, 12:24:42 AM »
More than likely your dough recipes are such that they don't favor a faster bake. I doubt it is the quality of the steel unless it is something totally different than what most use. With broiler on and using my steel I can do a 3.5 minute pie vs. 7+ minutes on a stone. That will yield a different pizza entirely.
I don't use the broiler with my oven because it's in the bottom and doesn't accommodate a very large stone or steel. But I've used the same basic dough recipes in both my home oven and my Ooni Pro oven, and I think it comes out great at higher temps, too (like 650-800 degrees, heated with anthracite coal/lump charcoal mix or wood). And even in the Ooni Pro, I've used the baking steel and let it heat up for a good long time, and I still didn't think the crust came out as crispy on the bottom as it should have. I would use my baking stone in the Ooni, too, but I'm afraid the intense heat might crack it, and I've had it for over 8 years now and I love it, and that would be a catastrophe.  But then again, I've never been entirely satisfied with that oven, and I think it has some design flaws that I just can't seem to work around. And to be clear, there's definitely nothing unusual about my dough recipes, either. 
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Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Joe’s Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
« Reply #42 on: December 03, 2020, 08:26:44 PM »
Wow that's a big batch of sauce!

My calculation is 5 teaspoons of sugar for a 28 oz can of tomato. Below is my calc, hopefully someone can double-check.

Thank you for making this chart, Matt! I double checked your math to the best of my ability and I think you're right, but my math isn't always so flawless haha.

Itried this today using a can of Alta Cucina because I couldn't find any San Marzanos at my RD last time.

The only thing was that after adding about 1/4 of the sugar as per measured (I was going to do 2.67 oz into my can that was 102 oz net wt.) I tasted the sauce and it was already very delicious and quite sweet tasting. To be honest I got too wary to pull the trigger on the rest of the sugar into that can of tomatoes. It was tasting so good.

I decided to try this out using the following formula:

Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (.165%):
Salt (2.7%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Total (161.365%):
355.42 g  |  12.54 oz | 0.78 lbs
202.59 g  |  7.15 oz | 0.45 lbs
0.59 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.19 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
9.6 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
5.33 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.34 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
573.53 g | 20.23 oz | 1.26 lbs | TF = 0.0795

Flour was King Kaiser unbromated. Dough was at RT for about an hour, then in fridge for about 36 hours, and finally out of the fridge for a few hours before baking.

I chose the TF by noticing that the 20" and 18" doughs had different thickness factors when using the 22 oz and 25 oz weights that Andrew had provided. So I converted the 20", 25 oz weight to the same thickness factor for 18" and got a 20.23 oz dough ball. Unfortunately, I forgot to use bowl residue so my dough ball came up even a bit lighter at 19.81 oz.

You'll see in the photos that I didn't quite make the 18" mark as the 18" tray is quite visible below the edge.

I used a stick blender on the Alta Cucinas because I don't have a food mill. I added 0.72 g of sugar and called it quits there.

Cheese is LMPSM Supremo aka the house brand of RD.

Baked 3 minutes on quarry tiles that read roughly 630F and then I moved it up to a soapstone that was reading around 550F. I dont have any large pizza screens, so I unfortunately couldn't put it on a screen (or two) like Andrew mentioned Joe's does. As a result, the bottom was DARK. But somehow it still was very tasty? Might have pulled it 30-60 seconds sooner if I had known.

Offline Andrew Bellucci

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Re: Joe’s Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2020, 09:03:15 PM »
Good-looking pie - I saw a Joe's resemblance...

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Joe’s Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
« Reply #44 on: December 06, 2020, 07:23:13 AM »
Good-looking pie - I saw a Joe's resemblance...
Yeah, I wonder where he would have gotten that recipe from ;)...
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Offline thezaman

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Re: Joe’s Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2020, 04:56:32 PM »
Thank you for making this chart, Matt! I double checked your math to the best of my ability and I think you're right, but my math isn't always so flawless haha.

Itried this today using a can of Alta Cucina because I couldn't find any San Marzanos at my RD last time.

The only thing was that after adding about 1/4 of the sugar as per measured (I was going to do 2.67 oz into my can that was 102 oz net wt.) I tasted the sauce and it was already very delicious and quite sweet tasting. To be honest I got too wary to pull the trigger on the rest of the sugar into that can of tomatoes. It was tasting so good.

I decided to try this out using the following formula:

Flour (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (.165%):
Salt (2.7%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Total (161.365%):
355.42 g  |  12.54 oz | 0.78 lbs
202.59 g  |  7.15 oz | 0.45 lbs
0.59 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.19 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
9.6 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
5.33 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.34 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
573.53 g | 20.23 oz | 1.26 lbs | TF = 0.0795

Flour was King Kaiser unbromated. Dough was at RT for about an hour, then in fridge for about 36 hours, and finally out of the fridge for a few hours before baking.

I chose the TF by noticing that the 20" and 18" doughs had different thickness factors when using the 22 oz and 25 oz weights that Andrew had provided. So I converted the 20", 25 oz weight to the same thickness factor for 18" and got a 20.23 oz dough ball. Unfortunately, I forgot to use bowl residue so my dough ball came up even a bit lighter at 19.81 oz.

You'll see in the photos that I didn't quite make the 18" mark as the 18" tray is quite visible below the edge.

I used a stick blender on the Alta Cucinas because I don't have a food mill. I added 0.72 g of sugar and called it quits there.

Cheese is LMPSM Supremo aka the house brand of RD.

Baked 3 minutes on quarry tiles that read roughly 630F and then I moved it up to a soapstone that was reading around 550F. I dont have any large pizza screens, so I unfortunately couldn't put it on a screen (or two) like Andrew mentioned Joe's does. As a result, the bottom was DARK. But somehow it still was very tasty? Might have pulled it 30-60 seconds sooner if I had known.



 the thing I noticed when eating a joes slice was the sweetness of the sauce how did your sugar level taste to you? your pizza looks delicious!!

Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Joe’s Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
« Reply #46 on: December 07, 2020, 05:52:33 PM »
Good-looking pie - I saw a Joe's resemblance...

Thank you for the compliment Andrew, it means a lot! I was so excited to try this formula out - thank you so much for documenting it all here for all who visit the pizzamaking forums.

I look forward to getting a couple of screens to help keep the bottom from burning next time.


Yeah, I wonder where he would have gotten that recipe from ;)...

i'll never tell!!!!!

(spoiler: it's in this thread)




 the thing I noticed when eating a joes slice was the sweetness of the sauce how did your sugar level taste to you? your pizza looks delicious!!

It's a little hard for me to say how it would compare side by side with Joe's, but it seemed pretty close to me! It was sweet enough that the burned bottom crust was not overwhelming to my palette. I thought it was delicious and I will probably do a couple more Joe's pies soon where I try to do a few different ratios of sugar in the sauce to see what I think of that. And thank you!!
« Last Edit: December 07, 2020, 07:04:23 PM by PizzaSean »

Offline thezaman

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Re: Joe’s Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
« Reply #47 on: December 08, 2020, 09:03:48 AM »
Well, you got the All Trumps part right...

Not same day dough.  Cold fermented for at least 12 hours and thrown out after 48.

100% All Trumps
57% Water
2.7% Salt
1.5% Sugar
0.5% Fresh Yeast




Pizza Sauce

It is Nina Tomatoes but not the same ones as the Nina's Costco.  Joe's uses D.O.P., Costco's is either San Marzano "style" or just not D.O.P.  I don't remember, but trust me - I verified that they were different about a year ago. 

Run the can through a hand food mill

Stir in sugar which is more or less 3T sugar = 28oz can

It's very basic.  What's great is the well-doneness that comes from baking at 625. And the cheese to sauce ration is great - it's like 3/4lb for 18" and a just full 8oz ladle of sauce.  Hard to duplicate that in most home ovens...

Andrew thanks for the above recipe. Italian tomatoes are packed with a lot less salt then US brands. Does Joe’s add any salt to the sauce? Or is it left alone because of all of the salt present in toppings ?

Offline Andrew Bellucci

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Re: Joe’s Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2020, 08:39:25 PM »
Andrew thanks for the above recipe. Italian tomatoes are packed with a lot less salt then US brands. Does Joe’s add any salt to the sauce? Or is it left alone because of all of the salt present in toppings ?

The only thing Joe's adds to the tomatoes is sugar. No salt or other seasonings...

Offline DXrunner19

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Re: Joe’s Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
« Reply #49 on: December 16, 2020, 10:40:44 AM »
Well, you got the All Trumps part right...

Not same day dough.  Cold fermented for at least 12 hours and thrown out after 48.

100% All Trumps
57% Water
2.7% Salt
1.5% Sugar
0.5% Fresh Yeast


Pizza Sauce

It is Nina Tomatoes but not the same ones as the Nina's Costco.  Joe's uses D.O.P., Costco's is either San Marzano "style" or just not D.O.P.  I don't remember, but trust me - I verified that they were different about a year ago. 

Run the can through a hand food mill

Stir in sugar which is more or less 3T sugar = 28oz can

It's very basic.  What's great is the well-doneness that comes from baking at 625. And the cheese to sauce ration is great - it's like 3/4lb for 18" and a just full 8oz ladle of sauce.  Hard to duplicate that in most home ovens...

Thanks for posting this - I can't wait to give it a shot.  Just to confirm you send that Joe's puts the pizza directly on the deck for a minute and then puts it on the screen.  Just curious and what to learn do you know what the science is behind this?  Also assuming you basically cook the pizza until it's just about done then pull it and finish it off when you reheat the slice before serving.  Does that make sense what I am asking?

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Offline PizzaSean

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Re: Joe’s Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
« Reply #50 on: December 16, 2020, 03:51:21 PM »
Thanks for posting this - I can't wait to give it a shot.  Just to confirm you send that Joe's puts the pizza directly on the deck for a minute and then puts it on the screen.  Just curious and what to learn do you know what the science is behind this?  Also assuming you basically cook the pizza until it's just about done then pull it and finish it off when you reheat the slice before serving.  Does that make sense what I am asking?

The following is my speculation based on my one experience trying the Joe's formula listed above, but I expect that Joe's is trying to take advantage of the nice finish the crust gets by being directly on the stone before using the screen as an insulator to prevent the bottom from burning as the pie cooks to completion in the 625F oven. Andrew B mentioned in another post that there is a roughly 30 second window between a perfectly cooked pie and a burnt one. He also mentioned that sometimes 2 screens (or in his rare experience even 3!) would be used for pies at Joe's.

I think that this would allow Joe's to avoid the textural and visual impact of baking directly on the screen from the onset of being launched into the oven. I'd also guess that altering the order of operations so that you are starting on the screen and then going to the stone might impact the crust's appearance, texture, and finish in a different manner than parbaking on stone and then slipping a screen (or two or three) in between. I'd expect a more noticeable diamond pattern, and a softer more flexible crust, with a bit lighter coloring if the order was screen to stone as opposed to stone then screen.

I just got two 18" screens today and have been seasoning them in the hopes of trying this out soon in my oven. Will report back!

Offline DXrunner19

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Re: Joe’s Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
« Reply #51 on: December 17, 2020, 10:43:54 AM »
The following is my speculation based on my one experience trying the Joe's formula listed above, but I expect that Joe's is trying to take advantage of the nice finish the crust gets by being directly on the stone before using the screen as an insulator to prevent the bottom from burning as the pie cooks to completion in the 625F oven. Andrew B mentioned in another post that there is a roughly 30 second window between a perfectly cooked pie and a burnt one. He also mentioned that sometimes 2 screens (or in his rare experience even 3!) would be used for pies at Joe's.

I think that this would allow Joe's to avoid the textural and visual impact of baking directly on the screen from the onset of being launched into the oven. I'd also guess that altering the order of operations so that you are starting on the screen and then going to the stone might impact the crust's appearance, texture, and finish in a different manner than parbaking on stone and then slipping a screen (or two or three) in between. I'd expect a more noticeable diamond pattern, and a softer more flexible crust, with a bit lighter coloring if the order was screen to stone as opposed to stone then screen.

I just got two 18" screens today and have been seasoning them in the hopes of trying this out soon in my oven. Will report back!

That makes complete sense.  I am curious to see the results of your "screens" test.  Especially what type of impact it will have on the browning on the bottom of the pizza.

Thanks for sharing!

Offline jsaras

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Re: Joe’s Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
« Reply #52 on: December 17, 2020, 06:05:03 PM »
The following is my speculation based on my one experience trying the Joe's formula listed above, but I expect that Joe's is trying to take advantage of the nice finish the crust gets by being directly on the stone before using the screen as an insulator to prevent the bottom from burning as the pie cooks to completion in the 625F oven. Andrew B mentioned in another post that there is a roughly 30 second window between a perfectly cooked pie and a burnt one. He also mentioned that sometimes 2 screens (or in his rare experience even 3!) would be used for pies at Joe's.

I think that this would allow Joe's to avoid the textural and visual impact of baking directly on the screen from the onset of being launched into the oven. I'd also guess that altering the order of operations so that you are starting on the screen and then going to the stone might impact the crust's appearance, texture, and finish in a different manner than parbaking on stone and then slipping a screen (or two or three) in between. I'd expect a more noticeable diamond pattern, and a softer more flexible crust, with a bit lighter coloring if the order was screen to stone as opposed to stone then screen.

I just got two 18" screens today and have been seasoning them in the hopes of trying this out soon in my oven. Will report back!

Vito's in West Hollywood, CA bakes that way.  Stone first, and then moved to a screen.
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Offline scott r

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Re: Joe’s Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
« Reply #53 on: December 17, 2020, 07:40:44 PM »
I have to admit that when I heard that Beddia was starting on screens and then into the Pizzamaster I thought that it was a cop out to ease up on training staff.  Putting the pies up on screens AFTER the bottom sets when there is too much bottom heat makes more sense to me personally.. But... when I got there a few months ago and had the pizza (along with the pizza at MANY favorite NY spots on the same trip) it really stood out from the crowd as being exceptional crust.  Would it have been better decked the whole time... ?  maybe?  but I was definitely impressed with the crust.   

Offline Andrew Bellucci

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Re: Joe’s Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
« Reply #54 on: December 18, 2020, 09:38:23 PM »
Thanks for posting this - I can't wait to give it a shot.  Just to confirm you send that Joe's puts the pizza directly on the deck for a minute and then puts it on the screen.  Just curious and what to learn do you know what the science is behind this?  Also assuming you basically cook the pizza until it's just about done then pull it and finish it off when you reheat the slice before serving.  Does that make sense what I am asking?

Yes, Joe's runs a very hot oven and it goes down on the deck for anywhere between a minute or two and then gets screened.

I don't know that there's a science to what Joe's does rather than that's how it's always been done. 

As far as finishing a pie on the "reheat" no - Joe's bakes house pies to completion and often sell fresh slices directly when it's super busy.  The front of the oven used for slices is not very hot - maybe 450 where the slices go, from constant opening the door.  So it wouldn't burn like if it was the back of the oven.


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Offline DXrunner19

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Re: Joe’s Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2020, 11:41:46 AM »
Just went ahead and gave this a shot.  Used 450 grams of all trumps unbromated flour..  I don't have access to fresh years so did the conversion that King Arthur recommends .33%.  Which meant I only used only about .75 total for the yeast.  Not sure that's going to be enough, but I wanted to get as close as possible.  I am going to give this a shot on my Ooni 16 tomorrow and will post results. 

Plan on also using the deck to screen method that Tony's uses.  Just bought and seasoned a screen. 

Thanks!

Offline GumbaWill

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Re: Joe’s Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
« Reply #56 on: December 21, 2020, 06:30:04 PM »
\ I glimpsed a can of Nina brand San Marzano tomatoes being opened, which can be bought at Costco.

Thanks that is very helpful. Got to love Joe's slice!

Offline GumbaWill

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Re: Joe’s Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
« Reply #57 on: December 21, 2020, 06:39:03 PM »
1lb 6oz for 18"
1lb 9oz for 20"
2lbs for Sicilian
That is interesting. I use 619 grams for 18". Joe's pie is so much thinner than mine!

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Joe’s Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
« Reply #58 on: December 21, 2020, 09:51:22 PM »
Thanks that is very helpful. Got to love Joe's slice!
Andrew Bellucci did chime in on my comment and stated that the Nina's tomatoes used at Joe's are not the same as the ones available at Costco. So if you're trying to perfect a Joe's clone pizza, keep that in mind.
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Offline Stavs

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Re: Joe’s Pizza NYC dough and sauce.
« Reply #59 on: December 24, 2020, 02:23:37 PM »
Well, you got the All Trumps part right...

Not same day dough.  Cold fermented for at least 12 hours and thrown out after 48.

100% All Trumps
57% Water
2.7% Salt
1.5% Sugar
0.5% Fresh Yeast


Pizza Sauce

It is Nina Tomatoes but not the same ones as the Nina's Costco.  Joe's uses D.O.P., Costco's is either San Marzano "style" or just not D.O.P.  I don't remember, but trust me - I verified that they were different about a year ago. 

Run the can through a hand food mill

Stir in sugar which is more or less 3T sugar = 28oz can

It's very basic.  What's great is the well-doneness that comes from baking at 625. And the cheese to sauce ration is great - it's like 3/4lb for 18" and a just full 8oz ladle of sauce.  Hard to duplicate that in most home ovens...
t

Is that 3 tablespoons or teaspoons of sugar in the sauce?

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