Preferment for Lehmann NY Style Pizza

[norma427]

Norma

[norma427]

Norma

[Steve]

That looks amazing! 

[bfguilford]

Norma:

My 12 year old son wants to know if we can come over for a slice. When I told him how far away you are, he asked if you could send one by courier . I second that!

Barry

[norma427]

That looks amazing! 

Steve,

Thanks for the nice compliment! 

Norma

[norma427]

Norma:

My 12 year old son wants to know if we can come over for a slice. When I told him how far away you are, he asked if you could send one by courier . I second that!

Barry

Barry,

I would sure send your son a slice, but don't think he would like it after it was sitting around.  It would be all dried up.   

Norma

[bfguilford]

Barry,

I would sure send your son a slice, but don't think he would like it after it was sitting around.  It would be all dried up.   

Norma

He'll just have to settle for "eating with his eyes", Norma.

[norma427]

He'll just have to settle for "eating with his eyes", Norma.

Barry,

Lol, you can easily make a preferment Lehmann dough pizza for your son.  They sure aren't that hard to make. 

Norma

[sallam]

Would someone please give me the link to where the preferment Lehmann dough (with dairy whey) was posted? I've read through the topic and can't seem to find it.
Or if there is an updated formula to the preferment Lehmann dough with whey, I'd appreciate a link to it please if possible.

Also regarding the addition of dairy whey to the final dough, is it 4% of the final dough water? or 4% baker's percentage (ie. 4% of the weight of the flour in the final dough?

[norma427]

Would someone please give me the link to where the preferment Lehmann dough (with dairy whey) was posted? I've read through the topic and can't seem to find it.
Or if there is an updated formula to the preferment Lehmann dough with whey, I'd appreciate a link to it please if possible.

Also regarding the addition of dairy whey to the final dough, is it 4% of the final dough water? or 4% baker's percentage (ie. 4% of the weight of the flour in the final dough?

sallam,

At Reply 794 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg130474#msg130474 I used 10% dairy whey in the preferment Lehmann dough.  As you can see the bottom crust got a little darker.  If you use the words dairy whey Norma, in the search feature at the top right on this thread you should get 32 hits with the words dairy whey/whey in the posts.

Norma

[sallam]

Thanks Norma for your kind reply.
Is it 4% of the flour by weight, or is it 4% of the total water?

I still can't find the preferment Lehmann dough formula, with or without dairy whey. Sorry for the trouble.

[norma427]

Thanks Norma for your kind reply.
Is it 4% of the flour by weight, or is it 4% of the total water?

I still can't find the preferment Lehmann dough formula, with or without dairy whey. Sorry for the trouble.

sallam,

No trouble, I just have a hard time remembering everything that was done on this thread.

The preferment is a poolish.  If you want to see the formulation for one day dough, Peter figured it out at Reply 225 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg90226#msg90226  Peter also explained how the poolish is mixed at Reply 227 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg90235#msg90235

I took some photos of what the poolish preferment looked like in a smaller batch and in a bigger batch at Reply 1141 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg170971#msg170971  when they were ready to be incorporated into the final dough batches.

If you want to see the formulation Peter set forth for 5 dough balls it is at Reply 149 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg88687#msg88687  There are formulations for bigger batches of dough too.  If you want to see them let me know.  There is no easy way to just use the preferment calculation tool to do the calculations.  Peter did all that with pencil and papter and a lot of calculations.  The poolish part of the preferment was calculated to be made over a 3 day period for convience at market.  If you want to see what Peter had to say about how the prefermetent Lehmann dough was developed by Peter, his Reply is at 706 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9908.msg123148#msg123148  Of course you could just make a poolish and let it sit out/keep in a heated cabinet until it is ready to be incorporated into a dough.

I can't recall/find if there was anyplace that a formulation was posted with 4% dairy whey, or 10%, but I think Peter mentioned to try 4% dairy for better crust coloration.  I don't even recall how the 4%, or 10% dairy whey was calculated.  I think the 4% was by the flour weight, because this wasn't a starter dough.

Norma

[Chi_Guy]

Norma,

There is no reason that I can see why you shouldn't be able to make just one 16" pizza using the poolish you have made. The way you would come up with the ingredients would be to go to Reply 149 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg88687.html#msg88687 and divide everything by five. However, since there may be others who may be interested in the dough formulation of just one 16" pizza, I have set forth the details below, as follows:

Total Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation (for a single 16" pizza)

King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%): Water (61%): IDY (0.40%): Salt (1.75%): Olive Oil (1%): Total (164.15%):

310.16 g  |  10.94 oz | 0.68 lbs 189.2 g  |  6.67 oz | 0.42 lbs 1.24 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp 5.43 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.97 tsp | 0.32 tbsp 3.1 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.69 tsp | 0.23 tbsp 509.13 g | 17.96 oz | 1.12 lbs | TF = 0.08932

Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.088; for one dough ball for a single 16" pizza; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Preferment (Poolish)

King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%): Water (100%): IDY (0.30%): Total (200.3%):

75.66 g  |  2.67 oz | 0.17 lbs 75.66 g  |  2.67 oz | 0.17 lbs 0.23 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.08 tsp | 0.03 tbsp (this is a bit less than 3/32 t.) 151.55 g | 5.35 oz | 0.33 lbs | TF = N/A

Note: Poolish represents about 80% of the Total Formula Water and about 30% of the total dough weight.

Final Mix
Poolish (from above):                                                         151.55 g | 5.35 oz | 0.33 lbs

Remaining Total Formula King Arthur Sir Lancelot Flour (100%): Remaining Total Formula Water (48.4166%): Remaining Total Formula IDY (0.4324%): Total Formula Salt (2.31470%): Total Formula Olive Oil (1.3228%):

234.5 g  |  8.27 oz | 0.52 lbs 113.54 g  |  4 oz | 0.25 lbs 1.01 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.34 tsp | 0.11 tbsp 5.43 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.97 tsp | 0.32 tbsp 3.1 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.69 tsp | 0.23 tbsp

Total Dough Batch Weight:                                                 509.13 g | 17.96 oz | 1.12 lbs

For future reference, you may want to double check my math to be sure that it is correct.

In your case, to make one dough ball you should use 151.55 grams of your poolish quantity and add the remaining ingredients as specified above under the Final Mix.

Your single dough ball test should be a good one to see how the dough recipe stands up to scaling down to that size. So, I look forward to your results. However, should you reconsider and decide to make the full dough batch and freeze the dough balls, I think that should work too. However, since there can be no fermentation for the dough balls while frozen, you will have to allow enough time in advance of use to recover the loss of fermentation. There is also no reason why you can't do both. You can use one dough ball and freeze the rest.

Peter

I know this is an old thread but I just wanted to say thanks for sharing this recipe.  Lately I've had terrible luck with cold fermented dough - lack of flavor and browning, not sure what I'm doing wrong - but I've had tremendous success with this method.  It has the flavor of a 3 day cold fermented dough in a fraction of the time.  I let the preferment rise for 14-15 hours and then let the finished dough go for another 6-8 hours at room temperature.  KABF and unbleached/unbromated high gluten flour both performed very well.

Interestingly enough, the KABF achieved much greater browning than the high gluten flour.  Wonder if retarding the preferment in the fridge overnight and/or less salt (1.75% instead of 2% used with HG flour)  contributed to it.

[Essen1]

I know this is an old thread but I just wanted to say thanks for sharing this recipe.  Lately I've had terrible luck with cold fermented dough - lack of flavor and browning, not sure what I'm doing wrong - but I've had tremendous success with this method.  It has the flavor of a 3 day cold fermented dough in a fraction of the time.  I let the preferment rise for 14-15 hours and then let the finished dough go for another 6-8 hours at room temperature.  KABF and unbleached/unbromated high gluten flour both performed very well.

Interestingly enough, the KABF achieved much greater browning than the high gluten flour.  Wonder if retarding the preferment in the fridge overnight and/or less salt (1.75% instead of 2% used with HG flour)  contributed to it.

KABF is malted which contributes to browning. You'd get even better coloration, not to mention flavor, of you let the preferment out at room temp.

[Chi_Guy]

The high gluten flour I'm using is also malted which is why I didn't understand why it browned less than the KABF.  Could it be the KABF has a higher ratio of malted barley flour?

[Essen1]

The high gluten flour I'm using is also malted which is why I didn't understand why it browned less than the KABF.  Could it be the KABF has a higher ratio of malted barley flour?

Well,...what's your HG flour? Is it bleached? Unbleached? Protein content?

Give us the brand name.

[norma427]

I know this is an old thread but I just wanted to say thanks for sharing this recipe.  Lately I've had terrible luck with cold fermented dough - lack of flavor and browning, not sure what I'm doing wrong - but I've had tremendous success with this method.  It has the flavor of a 3 day cold fermented dough in a fraction of the time.  I let the preferment rise for 14-15 hours and then let the finished dough go for another 6-8 hours at room temperature.  KABF and unbleached/unbromated high gluten flour both performed very well.

Interestingly enough, the KABF achieved much greater browning than the high gluten flour.  Wonder if retarding the preferment in the fridge overnight and/or less salt (1.75% instead of 2% used with HG flour)  contributed to it.

Chi_Guy,

Glad Peter's preferment for the Lehmann dough worked out good for you.  Peter worked very hard doing the calculations for me and if other people wanted to try to make less dough balls.  Did you bake exactly at the same temperature and the exact same amount of time when using the KABF and the high gluten flour?  I even find when opening a dough a little different that there are different results in how brown the rim crust will be.

Norma

[Chi_Guy]

Well,...what's your HG flour? Is it bleached? Unbleached? Protein content?

Give us the brand name.

It's Glick's high gluten flour from Walmart, unbleached and unbromated.:  https://www.amazon.com/dp/B072JCGPC6/?tag=pmak-20

Glad Peter's preferment for the Lehmann dough worked out good for you.  Peter worked very hard doing the calculations for me and if other people wanted to try to make less dough balls.  Did you bake exactly at the same temperature and the exact same amount of time when using the KABF and the high gluten flour?  I even find when opening a dough a little different that there are different results in how brown the rim crust will be.

The KABF pie baked slightly faster, 5:30 vs. 6 at the same temperature, 550 F with convection on.  The major difference and possibly the contributing factor is the dough formulation.  I used Peter's 16" pie dough recipe with the KABF to make two dough balls 254g each.  Whereas for the HG, I scaled his recipe down for a single 12" dough ball, approximately 283g.   I also upped the salt slightly from 1.75% to 2%.  I know that can affect the rate of fermentation.  Below is the preferment for a 12" pie in case anyone wants to make a smaller pie:

Total Lehmann NY Style Dough Formulation
High Gluten Flour (100%):  172.32g
Water (61%):  105.11g
IDY (0.40%):   0.689g
Salt (2%):  3.45g
Olive Oil (1%):  1.72g
Total (164.15%):  283.289g | TF = 0.08932
Note: Nominal thickness factor = 0.088; for five dough balls for five 16" pizzas; bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

Preferment (Poolish)
High Gluten Flour (100%):  42.03 g 
Water (100%):  42.03 g 
IDY (0.30%):  0.126 g
Total (200.3%):  84.186 g
Note: Poolish represents about 80% of the Total Formula Water and about 30% of the total dough weight.

Final Mix
Poolish (from above):  84.186 g
Remaining Total Formula High Gluten Flour (100%):  130.27 g
Remaining Total Formula Water (48.4166%):  63.08 g
Remaining Total Formula IDY (0.4324%):  0.563g
Total Formula Salt (2.31470%):   3.45g
Total Formula Olive Oil (1.3228%):  1.72g
Total Dough Batch Weight:  283.269g


I attached some pictures to illustrate the difference between the two.  The most dramatic difference is in the undercarriage.  Pics 1 & 4 are pies made with HG flour.  Pics 2 & 3 are KABF.

[norma427]

Chi_Guy,

Thanks for explaining.  Don't think I could explain why things were different.

Norma

[Numerator]

Given the formulation, this is the closest I could get in the dough calculator:


https://pizzadoughcalculator.vercel.app/calculator?a=doughWeight&tf=0.1&dw=3303.43&b=1&shp=round&s=3&w=null&l=null&h=69&yt=idy&y=0.3&st=regular&slt=1.4&br=null&p=tw&pa=56.9&pwa=50&pya=0.15&pfa=0&pst=null&dh=null&ph=null&stf=0&dd=0&ss=0&sa=null&pwt=null&plt=null&c_g=1&c_kg=0&c_ml=0&c_o=0&c_p=0&c_t=0&c_tb=0&c_c=0&c_d=0&c_pr=3&um=1&t=Total%20Lehmann%20NY%20Style%20Dough%20Formulation&n=null&o25=0.8

I left it as a single ball to try to match the numbers.