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Author Topic: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza  (Read 1109 times)

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Offline husker3in4

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Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
« on: June 13, 2021, 02:02:18 AM »
I have used King Arthur Sir Lancelot which was great, then it was just easier to buy the KA bread flour at walmart. Now I moved to a new city and a local food service store can order in the big bag for $22. But, they also carry All Trumps, Golden Tiger, Gold Medal  & Bouncer brand high gluten flour. All for around $22 for a big bag. All the same? Which one works best? I believe Im using a Tom's NY style pizza dough recipe.

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
« Reply #1 on: June 13, 2021, 04:53:44 AM »
You have great choices...and a great store since so few will sell  a bag or two outside the trade.. you can't go wrong with All Trumps...but KASL is right there on top also.

Offline scott r

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Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
« Reply #2 on: June 13, 2021, 08:43:19 AM »
I have a feeling gold medal and all trumps will be the same flour.  There is no definitive gold medal flour... most of the General Mills flour bags say that on them including all trumps and many others.   Maybe one will be bromated and one will not, which will be nice because you can get the non bromated version (it will have green lettering on the bag rather than red).   That will be closes to what you are used to using.

I have never used golden tiger, and hummer is great, but I think in the end the only real difference you will find between all of these flours once you account for hydration is between unbromated and bromated versions.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2021, 08:45:05 AM by scott r »

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
« Reply #3 on: June 13, 2021, 11:29:55 AM »
... I think in the end the only real difference you will find between all of these flours once you account for hydration is between unbromated and bromated versions.

Scott, do you notice a difference when using bromated? Some have said it doesn't make a difference (I've only used bromated for one bake), but I don't remember your view. It's so commonly used here that I tend to think there's a reason for it, but it could just have become a standard and no one is compelled to switch.

Matt

Offline scott r

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Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
« Reply #4 on: June 13, 2021, 11:42:43 AM »
oh yeah, there is definitely a difference!   I just don't find a difference between most brands of malted American flour with the same protein content once hydration levels are matched.

Maybe if you are hearing there is no difference between bromated and non bromated its with different mixing protocols for each type.   If mixed the same way side by side I think you will notice.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2021, 12:06:03 PM by scott r »

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
« Reply #5 on: June 13, 2021, 12:31:19 PM »
I have a feeling gold medal and all trumps will be the same flour.  There is no definitive gold medal flour... most of the General Mills flour bags say that on them including all trumps and many others.   Maybe one will be bromated and one will not, which will be nice because you can get the non bromated version (it will have green lettering on the bag rather than red).   That will be closes to what you are used to using.

Scott,

You are correct that General Mills uses Gold Medal on a lot of its bags of flour, including All Trumps, as can be seen at:

https://www.generalmillscf.com/products/category/flour

Peter

Offline Elchimi

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Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2021, 01:01:19 PM »
Iíve used KASL and all trumps unbromated/unbleached.
I still have to make the side by side test which one i like better (that will never happen...)
They are both great though.
Also Iím a big fan of Giustos high performer

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2021, 01:42:13 PM »
Scott...im just now getting unbromated versions based on supply..what should I be looking for vs bromated versions?

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2021, 01:59:54 PM »
Scott, can you elaborate a bit on the differences that bromate makes? I'm particularly interested in how it impacts the characteristics of the final crust. (I'd  like to understand if there are certain things I can't achieve with my unbromated KASL.)

Matt

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2021, 02:33:19 PM »
Matt...I wish I'd asked that so clearly... :-D 

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Offline Pizza Shark

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Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2021, 06:24:53 PM »
Gold Medal Full Strength for NYS pizza all the way.  There is no better in my opinion but, of course, others will disagree. It is a bromated flour.   
« Last Edit: June 14, 2021, 06:35:39 PM by Pizza Shark »

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2021, 06:57:04 PM »
It's not the flour, it's the baker.

Offline scott r

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Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2021, 07:03:51 PM »
Scott, can you elaborate a bit on the differences that bromate makes? I'm particularly interested in how it impacts the characteristics of the final crust. (I'd  like to understand if there are certain things I can't achieve with my unbromated KASL.)


I see it as a mixing crutch.  It makes it easier to have great dough, but you can do it without the bromate.  In some ways it makes a planetary mixer produce a dough thats more similar to a spiral.  If heating up dough while mixing is a problem, bromate is a great friend because it will allow shorter mix times.  Its good for beginners just like commercial yeast is better for beginners rather than starting out with wild yeast.

Before I had a pizzeria I always used to keep some on hand for when I wanted to make sure I didn't mess up the dough.  Once I started selling pizza to people rather than just making it for myself and friends I ditched the bromate.   Every now and then I will consult for a pizzeria and I shoot out bromated flour again.  Most places are already using it and still somehow manage to screw up the dough :)
« Last Edit: June 14, 2021, 08:38:00 PM by scott r »

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
« Reply #13 on: June 14, 2021, 07:06:18 PM »
Can't fully go with you on that one, PNW...skills are key but flour is a big factor. Of course any of them will make pizza, but the results vary a lot.




Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
« Reply #14 on: June 14, 2021, 07:11:26 PM »
Can't fully go with you on that one, PNW...skills are key but flour is a big factor. Of course any of them will make pizza, but the results vary a lot.
At the extremes I agree. But a lot of people on the board, especially newbies will chase different flour in the hopes that it will all of a sudden create the perfect pizza. A good baker can use different technics to get the best of any flour within a category. I'm not going to say that using a bleached cake flour will make a great NY pizza. Although for an expert, I'd bet they could do something special.


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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
« Reply #15 on: June 15, 2021, 02:18:19 AM »
Scott..re the bromate. I wasn't aware of the mixing issue. So especially with handmixing, more time is need for similar strength? That would explain some results thatvhave surprised with non-bromated flour.

Offline scott r

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Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
« Reply #16 on: June 15, 2021, 07:52:33 AM »
Yes bromate is a dough strengthener so you can mix less to get to the same place.

Offline Georgev

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Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
« Reply #17 on: June 15, 2021, 09:03:52 AM »
Yes bromate is a dough strengthener so you can mix less to get to the same place.
Scott this is very helpful. How long do you recommend mixing a 50 pound bag of flour in a Hobart 60 quart mixer? I have mastered all trumps like you said itís easy to. But for some reason when I try any King Arthur flours the taste is great just no real development in the dough and no oven spring really. Currently at a 11 minute mix time with all trumps. Do you think 13-14 would work better for a unbromated flour? All trumps is a great flour but I would like to get away from bleached bromated flours. 

Offline scott r

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Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2021, 09:58:25 AM »
7-15 minutes is standard for bromated high gluten flours in a. 60qt, but most important is at what hydration. You could mix for 10 minutes up to 20 minutes with non bromated flour to try to match the bromated.  There are many factors though..it depends on where you are for hydration, when you ball the dough, how much salt, how much oil, how you ball, cold ferment or room temp ferment and how long etc etc. If your not seeing as much puff with non bromated with all else the same there are lots of things to get you more, mixing longer is one of them.

Most of the time I see non matching of hydration as the reason why people prefer one flour over the other.  One brand of flour with the same protein content as another brand can sometimes require 5 points different to be a true hydration match.  If hydration isn't properly matched you would need to do a much longer mix to get to the same amount of strength built into the doughs that feel wetter.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2021, 10:13:17 AM by scott r »

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Best High Gluten Flour for NY style pizza
« Reply #19 on: June 15, 2021, 10:13:07 AM »
That's a huge help to me , Scott. I've had to switch flours and have been scratching my head over why my numbers aren't getting me where I need to be.


So is it correct to say hydration is relative? If I really was happy with an artisan loaf at 80HR, then switch flour and needs to be at say, 75 to get absorption correct, then I can get similar results if protein level is the same?? 


















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