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Author Topic: Which flour do you use for Neapolitan?  (Read 1380 times)

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Offline pizzadaheim

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Re: Which flour do you use for Neapolitan?
« Reply #20 on: November 17, 2022, 03:51:50 PM »
What is your usual hydration for Neaopolitan pizza?








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« Last Edit: November 17, 2022, 04:59:47 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline scott r

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Re: Which flour do you use for Neapolitan?
« Reply #21 on: November 17, 2022, 04:34:41 PM »
Those are looking great!  Congrats on your success 50 pizzas an hour is insane and not easy!!! I can see why you are selling so many pizzas.

Offline pizzadaheim

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Re: Which flour do you use for Neapolitan?
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2022, 04:44:38 PM »
Those are looking great!  Congrats on your success 50 pizzas an hour is insane and not easy!!! I can see why you are selling so many pizzas.

Thank you Scott r.  Without a real neapolitan oven  it is almost impossible to make it. My Grimaldi Oven is a beast. The harder you push the oven the better it works.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2022, 01:22:01 AM by pizzadaheim »

Offline Pizza Shark

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Re: Which flour do you use for Neapolitan?
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2022, 05:42:40 PM »
So true.  I guess you just have to start SOMEwhere and tweak if necessary.

Ya know... I've been making NYS for 30? years now and pizza in general for 40 years.  At some point I have to believe that when it comes to this new Neapolitan pursuit, it will be just like my NY Style pursuit, the actual physical dough recipe maybe represents about 15% of the final product and outcome.  The other 85% is in how it is prepped, aged, handled/treated, stretched, topped, and (of course) baked. 

Recipes are easy, it's the other 85% that takes a long time to figure out.  I'll probably make a great Neapolitan pie someday in my 80's! 

Offline ButteredPizza

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Re: Which flour do you use for Neapolitan?
« Reply #24 on: November 30, 2022, 11:38:44 AM »
It was either AP or BF. I've never seen the '00'.
To Timpanogos: answering for TXCraig.. each costco may carry different products.  Example, for the longest time, mine carried Ardent Mills and some no-brand bleached hotel flour.  Early this fall they had a bunch of CM organic beehive and then the other week they had a bunch of CM organic ABC.  The cost was insanely cheap.. $15 or so for 20 lbs! 

I used CM 00 for a long while, and tried to compare it once to caputo, didn't see a difference.  I switched to local grocery store "simple truth" organic flour.  It's unmalted, inexpensive, and worked fine for pizza.  I do struggle with getting an airy cornicone though, never determined whether it was me, the flour, or something else, eventually gave up trying and just enjoy the pizza for what I can make now.  ;D

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Offline HansB

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Re: Which flour do you use for Neapolitan?
« Reply #25 on: November 30, 2022, 11:59:50 AM »
To Timpanogos: answering for TXCraig.. each costco may carry different products.  Example, for the longest time, mine carried Ardent Mills and some no-brand bleached hotel flour.  Early this fall they had a bunch of CM organic beehive and then the other week they had a bunch of CM organic ABC.  The cost was insanely cheap.. $15 or so for 20 lbs! 

I used CM 00 for a long while, and tried to compare it once to caputo, didn't see a difference.  I switched to local grocery store "simple truth" organic flour.  It's unmalted, inexpensive, and worked fine for pizza.  I do struggle with getting an airy cornicone though, never determined whether it was me, the flour, or something else, eventually gave up trying and just enjoy the pizza for what I can make now.  ;D

Was it labeled as CM ABC?
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Offline Pizza Shark

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Re: Which flour do you use for Neapolitan?
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2022, 07:48:03 PM »
OK... First Neapolitan attempt using the OONI dough recipe by the book.  My first thought was not enough hydration.  Placed it in the fridge for a 24 HR CF and didn't rise.  Took it out, made 4 balls and placed back in.  Minimal to no rise.  Then I remembered many will let Neapolitan dough that has no sugar rise for 8 hours or so on the bench so I pulled them, flattened them a bit, dusted them with flour, laid on wax paper and covered for 8 hours at room temp.  Finally some rise and 4 doughs that I could work into about 4, 10" pies. OONI is preheated to 900 hearth temp, 1st dough goes in and is almost incinerated underneath in less than 1 minute.  Lift that up to get a little more bake on the top and pull it and gag that down.  My thought was again, not enough hydration!  So I turn the temp down until I have a 750 degree read on the hearth close to the flames and 650 at the furthest areas.  This was the result and it was good but still pretty blackened on the rim.  I still think the recipe is flawed and needs higher hydration to handle the 900 degrees even for 1 minute before one may lift it off the heath and finish it with another 30 seconds holding it up in the oven.  Certainly not Neapolitan yet but better.                     

Offline kbrede

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Re: Which flour do you use for Neapolitan?
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2022, 09:54:25 PM »
OK... First Neapolitan attempt using the OONI dough recipe by the book.  My first thought was not enough hydration.  Placed it in the fridge for a 24 HR CF and didn't rise.  Took it out, made 4 balls and placed back in.  Minimal to no rise.  Then I remembered many will let Neapolitan dough that has no sugar rise for 8 hours or so on the bench so I pulled them, flattened them a bit, dusted them with flour, laid on wax paper and covered for 8 hours at room temp.  Finally some rise and 4 doughs that I could work into about 4, 10" pies. OONI is preheated to 900 hearth temp, 1st dough goes in and is almost incinerated underneath in less than 1 minute.  Lift that up to get a little more bake on the top and pull it and gag that down.  My thought was again, not enough hydration!  So I turn the temp down until I have a 750 degree read on the hearth close to the flames and 650 at the furthest areas.  This was the result and it was good but still pretty blackened on the rim.  I still think the recipe is flawed and needs higher hydration to handle the 900 degrees even for 1 minute before one may lift it off the heath and finish it with another 30 seconds holding it up in the oven.  Certainly not Neapolitan yet but better.                   

What's the hydration for the recipe? The AVPN specs for hydration are 55.6 to 62.5%. My guess is the recipe is adequate. It takes a while to learn how to cook with these small ovens at high temperature. I've been at it for two or three months and I'm still tweaking the process. 
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Offline utahdave

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Re: Which flour do you use for Neapolitan?
« Reply #28 on: December 06, 2022, 12:34:45 AM »
I get caputo 00 blue pizzeria in the 25 kg bag from my local restaurant supply distributor.  Easy to get and not particularly costly.  Iíve never had an issue with it.  Usually do 61-62% hydration. Overnight cold ferment. 900+ degree oven

Offline Pizza Shark

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Re: Which flour do you use for Neapolitan?
« Reply #29 on: December 06, 2022, 08:33:31 AM »
I used the Caputo OO Blue Pizzeria flour.  This was OONI's recipe.  I measured all ingredients in grams.  Guess this is a little over 57% hydration.

Makes 3 x 330g dough balls or 4 x 250g dough balls

Ingredients
12.8oz (364g) cold water
4 tsp (18g) salt
20g fresh yeast (or 9.2g active dried yeast, or 7g instant dried yeast) *amend yeast quantities depending on proving time.
21.4oz (607g) ď00Ē flour, plus extra for dusting
Note: Itís also possible to cold-prove your pizza dough, a technique that allows the yeast to work on the sugars in the flour for longer, thus helping the dough to develop a deeper flavor.

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Offline kbrede

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Re: Which flour do you use for Neapolitan?
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2022, 09:58:14 AM »
I used the Caputo OO Blue Pizzeria flour.  This was OONI's recipe.  I measured all ingredients in grams.  Guess this is a little over 57% hydration.

Makes 3 x 330g dough balls or 4 x 250g dough balls

Ingredients
12.8oz (364g) cold water
4 tsp (18g) salt
20g fresh yeast (or 9.2g active dried yeast, or 7g instant dried yeast) *amend yeast quantities depending on proving time.
21.4oz (607g) ď00Ē flour, plus extra for dusting
Note: Itís also possible to cold-prove your pizza dough, a technique that allows the yeast to work on the sugars in the flour for longer, thus helping the dough to develop a deeper flavor.

That's a 60% hydration:

(364g / 607g) * 100 = 59.9%

60% is perfectly fine for Neapolitan. The yeast percentage is higher than normal for long fermentation times. I suspect it's a same day recipe.

I think you're on the right track with lowering your oven temperature. I burned my first as well, as I suspect most do with these types of ovens. My advice would be to blast on high until the floor reaches the 750 to 800F range, turn down the burner to medium or low. Then launch. If it takes 2 minutes or more to cook, so be it. It will give you more time to see what's going on and to learn when the pizza needs turning, etc. From there you can bring the temps up both on the floor and as you cook.
-- Kent

Ovens:
Gozney Roccbox
Samsung NX58H5650WS + 15"x20"x3/8" steel

Offline Pizza Shark

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Re: Which flour do you use for Neapolitan?
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2022, 06:08:24 PM »
That's a 60% hydration:

(364g / 607g) * 100 = 59.9%

60% is perfectly fine for Neapolitan. The yeast percentage is higher than normal for long fermentation times. I suspect it's a same day recipe.

I think you're on the right track with lowering your oven temperature. I burned my first as well, as I suspect most do with these types of ovens. My advice would be to blast on high until the floor reaches the 750 to 800F range, turn down the burner to medium or low. Then launch. If it takes 2 minutes or more to cook, so be it. It will give you more time to see what's going on and to learn when the pizza needs turning, etc. From there you can bring the temps up both on the floor and as you cook.

Yeah, watching some of the Youtube videos of people baking Neapolitan at 900+ degrees or whatever they all seem to use their little turning peels constantly dancing it around, rotating it on the hearth, lifting it off the hearth, etc.  Letting mine just sit there at 900 for 1 minute or so incinerated the bottom of the crust.  I was really expecting instant Neapolitan results with the new "00" dough formula and no sugar or oil but that obviously wasn't the case.  I mean,  after so many years of making NY style at 550 an extra 350 degrees, or even 200 degrees is a big difference.  As far as others who use these little ovens and go with thicker after-market hearths and such all I can think is who needs a thicker hearth?  This thing can get so friggin' hot and recover so fast if anything I think a thinner hearth that can't hold so much heat is almost better and may give one a little more room for error as that initial heat transfer upon placement starts to bleed off as the hearth temp drops instead of continuing to drive more heat into the crust due to the thicker hearth being able to "hold" more heat for transfer.   

Oh.. I did buy an aftermarket door for it because I couldn't get to the claimed 900+ degrees in the winter here and preheat took quite a while to get to the 750 range.  With that door closed even though it is vented and probably closes off say only 70-75% of the previously open area it preheated so much faster and I stopped pushing it any higher once I hit 900 on the deck.  With that door on I really don't care to know how truly hot I could get it nor do I have any need if I can't manage 900.  Kind of makes me wonder if many of these "authentic" Neapolitan pizza places are really baking at 900+ or if that is just a marketing claim for many as it must take some serious skill to bake in an oven at those 900+ temps.       
« Last Edit: December 06, 2022, 06:22:11 PM by Pizza Shark »

Offline Pizza Shark

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Re: Which flour do you use for Neapolitan?
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2022, 06:29:50 PM »
I used CM 00 for a long while, and tried to compare it once to caputo, didn't see a difference.  I switched to local grocery store "simple truth" organic flour.  It's unmalted, inexpensive, and worked fine for pizza.  I do struggle with getting an airy cornicone though, never determined whether it was me, the flour, or something else, eventually gave up trying and just enjoy the pizza for what I can make now.  ;D

Well, from what I've watched in videos, the key to the puffed airy cornicone is the final bench rise at room temp... Once its risen they show people only pressing down the center leaving about a 3/4" rim all around puffed up and unpressed.  Then they stretch such that they thin out the pressed center leaving the rim still puffed and untouched.  I guess the combination of the air in the crust expanding when heated combined with the water in the crust boiling off and creating steam both combine to deliver that puff.  I was told long, long ago NEVER EVER take a rolling pin to pizza dough as you'll toughen it and drive out all the gasses/ air in it (unless you're going for a laminated cracker crust).   

Offline kbrede

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Re: Which flour do you use for Neapolitan?
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2022, 08:48:07 PM »
Yeah, watching some of the Youtube videos of people baking Neapolitan at 900+ degrees or whatever they all seem to use their little turning peels constantly dancing it around, rotating it on the hearth, lifting it off the hearth, etc.  Letting mine just sit there at 900 for 1 minute or so incinerated the bottom of the crust.  I was really expecting instant Neapolitan results with the new "00" dough formula and no sugar or oil but that obviously wasn't the case.  I mean,  after so many years of making NY style at 550 an extra 350 degrees, or even 200 degrees is a big difference.  As far as others who use these little ovens and go with thicker after-market hearths and such all I can think is who needs a thicker hearth?  This thing can get so friggin' hot and recover so fast if anything I think a thinner hearth that can't hold so much heat is almost better and may give one a little more room for error as that initial heat transfer upon placement starts to bleed off as the hearth temp drops instead of continuing to drive more heat into the crust due to the thicker hearth being able to "hold" more heat for transfer.   

Oh.. I did buy an aftermarket door for it because I couldn't get to the claimed 900+ degrees in the winter here and preheat took quite a while to get to the 750 range.  With that door closed even though it is vented and probably closes off say only 70-75% of the previously open area it preheated so much faster and I stopped pushing it any higher once I hit 900 on the deck.  With that door on I really don't care to know how truly hot I could get it nor do I have any need if I can't manage 900.  Kind of makes me wonder if many of these "authentic" Neapolitan pizza places are really baking at 900+ or if that is just a marketing claim for many as it must take some serious skill to bake in an oven at those 900+ temps.       

I sound like a spokesperson for AVPN :-D But here are the AVPN oven specs for a cook:

Cooking surface temperature: 380C/716F to 430C/806F
Oven dome temperature: 485C/905F
Cooking time: about 60-90 seconds

I think we hear 900F a lot because it sounds impressive. That's the way we humans operate. We want to be the person that cooks at the highest temperature, in a shorter amount of time, with the most hydration, the longest fermentation, have the largest cornicione, etc.

That's all well and good. It's part of the fun for some, but IMO it's a tough place for us beginners to start.   
-- Kent

Ovens:
Gozney Roccbox
Samsung NX58H5650WS + 15"x20"x3/8" steel

Offline Pizza Shark

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Re: Which flour do you use for Neapolitan?
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2022, 09:46:08 PM »
I sound like a spokesperson for AVPN :-D But here are the AVPN oven specs for a cook:

Cooking surface temperature: 380C/716F to 430C/806F
Oven dome temperature: 485C/905F
Cooking time: about 60-90 seconds

I think we hear 900F a lot because it sounds impressive. That's the way we humans operate. We want to be the person that cooks at the highest temperature, in a shorter amount of time, with the most hydration, the longest fermentation, have the largest cornicione, etc.

That's all well and good. It's part of the fun for some, but IMO it's a tough place for us beginners to start.   

Totally agree!  I have like 40 years of pizza making experience starting as a little kid making sheet pizzas using Robinhood just-add-water crust mix and Ragu spaghetti sauce with cheese and pepperoni on sheet pans I'd cut up for my brown bag lunches in middle school.  Then working for and learning from Pizzeria Regina in Boston 20+ years ago to then making my own NYS 550 degree pies in the oven for the next 20 years?

I got this OONI oven as a gift and this is a whole new realm for me and I have 40 years of experience.  This OONI that can reach these temps is entering a whole new realm and will require a whole new learning curve.  For a beginner in pizza making, getting an OONI and thinking you're gonna crank out Neapolitan pies the next day is a fallacy regardless of the OONI dough recipe and how many videos you watch.  I just tried the OONI dough recipe this past weekend and ended up with a smoldering cinder of a crust in 60 seconds! 

If I had no pizza making experience and someone gifted me an OONI oven and I cranked it up and tried to bake my first pie expecting some great Neapolitan result I'd end up with an incinerated mess and probably quit right there and list it for sale on Craig's List or somewhere. 

Don't get me wrong, I love this little oven and what it is capable of because I have 40? years of pizza making experience to fall back on and to start around the 700-750 range is a big step up from 550.  If someone thinks they can buy one of these and read some recipes and make great Neapolitan pizza right away at 900 degrees they are gravely mistaken. 

There is a great, hilarious Youtube video of someone who thought they could cook a Ribeye Steak in it!  A must see...  I mean, really?  Steak in a pizza oven?  Thought that was what grills were for. 



             
« Last Edit: December 06, 2022, 09:57:29 PM by Pizza Shark »

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Offline Davydd

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Re: Which flour do you use for Neapolitan?
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2022, 09:20:54 AM »
I've been thinking about getting a decent cornicone from these comments and came across in my photo library three pizzas I made in March 2014. Two were made on a Breville Crispy Crust electric pizza oven and one was on the road with a Dutch oven on the ground. They all had decent cornicone. The Crispy Crust can get up to 660 degrees and I have no idea how a Dutch oven performs. They were all made with the same dough because on the road I didn't make it but saved from the first batch I made at home. Unfortunately I didn't record the dough formula at the time but I was doing something right. So I conclude it was all in the dough and not the oven.

Pizza and Pursuing breaded pork tenderloin sandwiches are my food passions.

I have and used a Breville Crispy Crust, Pizzaque and Bertello Napoli, and of course a home oven range.

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