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Author Topic: Impact of Dough Temperature When Opening the Dough Ball for Baking  (Read 673 times)

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Offline mitchjg

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JPB's recent post about his new proofer, https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=50947.msg512334#msg512334, reminded me of an article that I read in Milk Street magazine.  Milk Street is run by Christoper Kimball - it is his next thing after he left the leadership role at America's Test Kitchen.

The September, 2017 issue has an article with pizza recipes.  The main deal in the article is about the temperature, 75 degrees being the goal, of the dough when it is opened.  This was their view of the "secret" to a dough that is chewy, crisp and easy to work with.

Aside from a recipe with a workflow and all that, they felt the key factor was the final warmup after their 24 hour cold ferment.

They, for example, tested two doughs side by side.  Both warmed up for 2 hours.  One was brought to 65 degrees, the other to 75 degrees.  They did not use a fancy proofer to get the 2nd dough to 75 degrees, they put a bowl containing the dough into a larger bowl filed with warm water.

They found that the warmer dough was easier to open and had a better rise.  The cooler dough was less "bubbly" and was somewhat tougher once baked.

Their explanation of the difference was the greater amount of glutathione, produced by yeast cells as they die.  It weakens the dough and makes it easier to work with. 

I have never tested this and I normally open my doughs at less than 75 degrees - my ambient room temperature is usually lower and I do not get the dough balls to full room temperature when I open them.  So, I have no experience with this approach.

It seems like since the dough balls were both warming up for 2 hours but one was warmer than the other,  of course you will get more active yeast activity. 

So, is it really something special about getting the dough to 75 degrees or is merely a matter of ensuring a good amount of yeast activity before opening and baking?

I thought I would share this and see what others think of this........
Mitch

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Offline norcoscia

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Re: Impact of Dough Temperature When Opening the Dough Ball for Baking
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2018, 11:35:45 AM »
Good post - I hope someone can add to this topic - I know I can feel and see a difference in a very warm dough and I get more oven spring - maybe it is more important than people realize as a contributor to the final crust character.
Norm

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Impact of Dough Temperature When Opening the Dough Ball for Baking
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2018, 12:11:45 PM »
I haven't spent any time thinking about the science behind it, but I would agree that somewhere around 68-75F is optimal. I know I've never been happy with my pizza made with dough that is significantly below or above this range.
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Offline Bobino414

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Re: Impact of Dough Temperature When Opening the Dough Ball for Baking
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2018, 01:57:38 PM »
JPB's recent post about his new proofer, https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=50947.msg512334#msg512334, reminded me of an article that I read in Milk Street magazine.  Milk Street is run by Christoper Kimball - it is his next thing after he left the leadership role at America's Test Kitchen.

They found that the warmer dough was easier to open and had a better rise. 


Tom TDD has often stated:
After the final CF period allow the dough to warm AT room temperature to between 50 and 60F before opening the dough into skins for your pizzas.

In a much earlier post by PizzaShark it was stated one gets a better rise with a colder dough" (no specific temp was mentioned). Unfortunately PizzaShark's posts are no longer available to cite the exact quote; perhaps a moderator has such access.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Impact of Dough Temperature When Opening the Dough Ball for Baking
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2018, 02:10:21 PM »
In a much earlier post by PizzaShark it was stated one gets a better rise with a colder dough" (no specific temp was mentioned). Unfortunately PizzaShark's posts are no longer available to cite the exact quote; perhaps a moderator has such access.

Pizza Shark had a theory that yeast was almost solely responsible for oven spring and if you start the bake from cold dough, the yeast had a longer time in the "sweet spot." Personally, I don't believe his theory is correct.

yeast has EVERYTHING to do with oven spring... IT IS NOT WATER VAPOR OR STEAM that causes dough to "SPRING".  It is yeast and their last fight to survive before they are incinerated.  As the temp in the dough hits their sweet spot, they start rockin' and rollin' without a clue that it is gonna get one heck of alot hotter.  Cold dough allows for a longer temp in their "sweet spot" for them to keep on rockin' & rollin' after the pie is placed in the oven.  Room temp dough cuts their rock-n-roll time back so they don't have the time to give ya those big crusty bubbles.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 02:31:07 PM by TXCraig1 »
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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Impact of Dough Temperature When Opening the Dough Ball for Baking
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2018, 02:29:46 PM »
I'd sure be curious to know...I usually open way cooler than that, more like what Tom indicated. I know pizza isn't bread, but I bake bread directly from cold proof, and I know I'm not alone..in fact, Forkish recommends this, as does, I  believe Chad Robertson. 

Offline waltertore

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Re: Impact of Dough Temperature When Opening the Dough Ball for Baking
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2018, 04:02:10 PM »
We use a proofer throughout the day to get dough up to the right temp.  Cold dough = hard to open, flat rim, bubbles throughout the inside of the dough during bake- no good IMO.  The easy news is in a pizzeria cooler dough makes for easier to manage over long time periods but results in sub par pizza IMO.  Walter
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 04:04:39 PM by waltertore »
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Offline HBolte

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Re: Impact of Dough Temperature When Opening the Dough Ball for Baking
« Reply #7 on: January 16, 2018, 04:12:32 PM »
I don’t often CF bread or pizza. I do bump up my proof to 85F to meet bake times if it seems to be proofing slowly, the last several loaves that I posted were proofed this way. I hope Norma chimes in, it seems that when I was with her at the market her warming cabinet was quite warm. Her dough opened very easy and baked great.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 06:33:54 PM by HBolte »
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Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: Impact of Dough Temperature When Opening the Dough Ball for Baking
« Reply #8 on: January 16, 2018, 04:32:52 PM »

They, for example, tested two doughs side by side.  Both warmed up for 2 hours.  One was brought to 65 degrees, the other to 75 degrees. 

They found that the warmer dough was easier to open and had a better rise.  The cooler dough was less "bubbly" and was somewhat tougher once baked.

Their explanation of the difference was the greater amount of glutathione, produced by yeast cells as they die.  It weakens the dough and makes it easier to work with. 

So, is it really something special about getting the dough to 75 degrees or is merely a matter of ensuring a good amount of yeast activity before opening and baking?

I thought I would share this and see what others think of this........

It would be interesting to see how long it took for the balls to reach their terminal respective temperatures and what temperature the dough was at when it went into the oven after the pies were made.

If they were at the same temperature when flung into the oven then the cause of the differences in texture etc. would point to conditions pre-bake.
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Offline mitchjg

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Re: Impact of Dough Temperature When Opening the Dough Ball for Baking
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2018, 06:23:38 PM »
It would be interesting to see how long it took for the balls to reach their terminal respective temperatures and what temperature the dough was at when it went into the oven after the pies were made.

If they were at the same temperature when flung into the oven then the cause of the differences in texture etc. would point to conditions pre-bake.

The 2 balls reached their respective temperatures in the same time period - 2 hours.  The dough that was baked at 75 degrees was helped along to that level by the warm water.  So, 2 different ambient temperatures to reach the 2 different final temperatures in the same timeframe.
Mitch

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Offline foreplease

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Re: Impact of Dough Temperature When Opening the Dough Ball for Baking
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2018, 06:42:44 PM »
I have no idea about the science behind it but am a low-level user of the scientific method in my day to day work. Translating it to pizza it would seem that once we find a combination of time and temperatire that yields results we like the most important thing is to be consistent.


I do not measure the temperature before I open dough. My guess would be that 60-65° I find stubborn, below 60° difficult and 71 (our winter room temp) to be pretty good. I have had some that were upper 80s from oven proof cycle. Too loose and difficult to control for me.
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Offline Rolls

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Re: Impact of Dough Temperature When Opening the Dough Ball for Baking
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2018, 08:19:08 AM »
Mitch,

It's an interesting question as to why the warmer dough was more extensible and yielded different textural qualities than the cooler dough at 65°.  Whether this is caused primarily by the effects of glutathione weakening the gluten structure, or some other factor, I'm not entirely sure.  Perhaps the greater extensibility is also caused by the increased acidity in the warmer dough as a by-product of increased yeast activity.


Rolls

Offline Essen1

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Re: Impact of Dough Temperature When Opening the Dough Ball for Baking
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2018, 11:54:37 AM »
JPB's recent post about his new proofer, https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=50947.msg512334#msg512334, reminded me of an article that I read in Milk Street magazine.  Milk Street is run by Christoper Kimball - it is his next thing after he left the leadership role at America's Test Kitchen.

The September, 2017 issue has an article with pizza recipes.  The main deal in the article is about the temperature, 75 degrees being the goal, of the dough when it is opened.  This was their view of the "secret" to a dough that is chewy, crisp and easy to work with.

Aside from a recipe with a workflow and all that, they felt the key factor was the final warmup after their 24 hour cold ferment.

They, for example, tested two doughs side by side.  Both warmed up for 2 hours.  One was brought to 65 degrees, the other to 75 degrees.  They did not use a fancy proofer to get the 2nd dough to 75 degrees, they put a bowl containing the dough into a larger bowl filed with warm water.

They found that the warmer dough was easier to open and had a better rise.  The cooler dough was less "bubbly" and was somewhat tougher once baked.

Their explanation of the difference was the greater amount of glutathione, produced by yeast cells as they die.  It weakens the dough and makes it easier to work with. 

I have never tested this and I normally open my doughs at less than 75 degrees - my ambient room temperature is usually lower and I do not get the dough balls to full room temperature when I open them.  So, I have no experience with this approach.

It seems like since the dough balls were both warming up for 2 hours but one was warmer than the other,  of course you will get more active yeast activity. 

So, is it really something special about getting the dough to 75 degrees or is merely a matter of ensuring a good amount of yeast activity before opening and baking?

I thought I would share this and see what others think of this........

Mitch,

Did the article say what the hydration levels were?

I found that doughs with a higher hydration, a temp of 62-65°F is within the perfect range for me personally. Anything above that and the dough becomes harder to work with and too extensible. Lower hydration doughs are more forgiving, imo, and better suited for opening at temps of 70-75°F. As a matter of fact, that temp range is actually perfect and yields good oven spring despite being lower in hydration.

I'd like to mention that I usually bake higher hydration doughs (65% and up) at higher temps, so good oven spring is not an issue despite going in a tad colder than the other dough.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 12:08:46 PM by Essen1 »
Mike

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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Impact of Dough Temperature When Opening the Dough Ball for Baking
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2018, 12:22:32 PM »
When dough balls are opened after they have reached a higher internal temperature it is because of the impact of the temperature directly upon the dough. As wheat based doughs warm they become softer and more extensible until they begin to break down at about 100F. This is NOT due to the release of glutathione but instead it is due to the disassociation of the wheat protein (gluten) at the higher temperatures. This is why commercial bread proofers operate at 100 to 103F. This temperature allows for the maximum expansion rate of the dough but still allowing it to retain sufficient strength to withstand the mechanical transfer points on the production line, even then, dough strengtheners are commonly added to supplement the dough strength and improve oven spring properties.
For glutathione to be released from the yeast cells you must, in some manner, collapse the cell membrane, this can be done in a number of ways:
1) slow/static freezing the yeast after it has been feeding/fermenting for a period of time (large, angular ice crystals puncture the cells allowing for the release of glutathione).
2) Exposure to heat, temperature above 135F will kill the yeast and allow for the release of the glutathione (this is how products like RS-190/"dead yeast" are made.
3) Starving the yeast will result in the yeast cannibalizing and feeding upon other yeast cells thus resulting in the release of glutathione.
These are the most commonly encountered ways that glutathione is released from the yeast cells. Letting the dough warm from 65 to 75F will not result in the release of glutathion.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline mitchjg

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Re: Impact of Dough Temperature When Opening the Dough Ball for Baking
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2018, 12:31:57 PM »
When dough balls are opened after they have reached a higher internal temperature it is because of the impact of the temperature directly upon the dough. As wheat based doughs warm they become softer and more extensible until they begin to break down at about 100F. This is NOT due to the release of glutathione but instead it is due to the disassociation of the wheat protein (gluten) at the higher temperatures. This is why commercial bread proofers operate at 100 to 103F. This temperature allows for the maximum expansion rate of the dough but still allowing it to retain sufficient strength to withstand the mechanical transfer points on the production line, even then, dough strengtheners are commonly added to supplement the dough strength and improve oven spring properties.
For glutathione to be released from the yeast cells you must, in some manner, collapse the cell membrane, this can be done in a number of ways:
1) slow/static freezing the yeast after it has been feeding/fermenting for a period of time (large, angular ice crystals puncture the cells allowing for the release of glutathione).
2) Exposure to heat, temperature above 135F will kill the yeast and allow for the release of the glutathione (this is how products like RS-190/"dead yeast" are made.
3) Starving the yeast will result in the yeast cannibalizing and feeding upon other yeast cells thus resulting in the release of glutathione.
These are the most commonly encountered ways that glutathione is released from the yeast cells. Letting the dough warm from 65 to 75F will not result in the release of glutathion.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

So, Tom, ya can't believe everything you read in a magazine?   :-D :-D :-D

Thanks a lot.

Aside from what the real chemistry is - my take/theory was that since, in the same time period, they were bringing the dough to 75 instead of 65, then the 75 degree dough would have to have a higher level of yeast activity and gas production.  So, that is why the dough was more "bubbly." 

Sound right?

They also said it was easier to open at 75 degrees.  Any comments there?

*************************

Mike - the dough was a 62.1 to 64.6% hydration (no oil).  The range is because I do not know what they meant, by weight, for a "cup" of water.


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Offline foreplease

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Re: Impact of Dough Temperature When Opening the Dough Ball for Baking
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2018, 02:23:39 PM »
Mike’s point about hydration is good. That’s like the third leg of the stool in all this.
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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Impact of Dough Temperature When Opening the Dough Ball for Baking
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2018, 03:34:13 PM »
Mitch;
That sounds right to me too.
The dough was easier to open because of both the additional fermentation (yeast ferments faster as the temperature rises) and due to the temperature effect upon the wheat proteins (making them softer and more extensible).
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Offline Yael

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Re: Impact of Dough Temperature When Opening the Dough Ball for Baking
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2018, 10:52:47 PM »
So, Tom, ya can't believe everything you read in a magazine?   :-D :-D :-D

Thanks a lot.

Aside from what the real chemistry is - my take/theory was that since, in the same time period, they were bringing the dough to 75 instead of 65, then the 75 degree dough would have to have a higher level of yeast activity and gas production.  So, that is why the dough was more "bubbly." 

Sound right?

They also said it was easier to open at 75 degrees.  Any comments there?

*************************

Mike - the dough was a 62.1 to 64.6% hydration (no oil).  The range is because I do not know what they meant, by weight, for a "cup" of water.

I agree on that too, and also on Essen1's explanation with high hydration.
Now the question is : would a higher hydration at lower temp dough have the same characteristics/results after baking as a lower hydration at a higher temp dough?
As we know, higher hydration enhances the yeast activity, so we could get to a same level of yeast activity at a lower temp.
But I guess there should still remain some differences after baking, what could they be?
"Either you have reason, or result"

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Impact of Dough Temperature When Opening the Dough Ball for Baking
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2018, 11:59:13 PM »
When it comes to controlling yeast activity/fermentation rate temperature trumps dough absorption every time. Plus changes in dough absorption will also impact other physical crust characteristics much more than changes in temperature will when looking at the big picture.
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