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Author Topic: Tips on stone cooking technique  (Read 1575 times)

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Offline mileniarista

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Re: Tips on stone cooking technique
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2018, 12:23:31 PM »
That is to be expected. The more protein, the more water the flour will absorb. If you ever use your lower protein flour, you may consider knocking your hydration down a few points as well.

Great! Some things start to make a little bit of sense, although I still have a lot to experiment with.

This how my home oven is set up. I bake on a plate on the bottom and steel on top. The steel is my fathers and he used to bake bread on it. I had the plate cut to fit my oven.
I use the steel primarily to hold heat and aid in browning of the top of the pie. I turn the oven on to 550°F, 2 hours before Im ready to bake my pies.

You can see my thread about making pizza from my home grown levain here.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=49530.0

Impressive progression you made in just a few months. I didn't take the time to read the whole thread but the difference between your early and late pizzas is noticeable. Congrats!

The top part of my oven seems to get hotter than the stone pretty fast. Do you think I would need a steel plate like yours or is it just a matter of playing around with turning top heating (or broiler) on and off when needed? If I choose this approach would it make sense to place the stone closer to the top again?

Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: Tips on stone cooking technique
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2018, 02:13:56 PM »

Impressive progression you made in just a few months. I didn't take the time to read the whole thread but the difference between your early and late pizzas is noticeable. Congrats!

The top part of my oven seems to get hotter than the stone pretty fast. Do you think I would need a steel plate like yours or is it just a matter of playing around with turning top heating (or broiler) on and off when needed? If I choose this approach would it make sense to place the stone closer to the top again?

I would start with a 2 hour warm up at max temperature with the plate 1 rack up from the bottom. Heat on no broiler. Don't open the door for 2 hours.  You want the plate to be hot. Try that and see if you can get the bottom to brown. Toss the pie onto the plate, leave it on the plate and don't open the door for 5 or 6 minutes. Heat on no broiler. Check the bottom. If its not brown close the door for 1 or 2 minutes more.

If you want to add a steel plate above the pie give it a try. Mine is 3/8" thick. It has aided in browning the top for me. There is very little space between the cordierite plate and the steel plate where the pizza goes. That hot steel plate is radiating energy down onto the pie.

I didn't like the results when the pie was way up in the oven so I moved the cordierite plate back down near the bottom.

You will have to make a few pies in different locations in your oven to see what works for you. If you cant get the bottom brown and the top brown at the same time to your liking then I would do the broiler thing if you want.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline mileniarista

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Re: Tips on stone cooking technique
« Reply #22 on: January 21, 2018, 01:10:14 PM »
Here’s my recipe for these two pies:
100% wheat flour (11% protein)
62% water
2,5% sea salt
2,5% white sugar
2% olive oil
0,32% active dry yeast

Cold fermented for 70 hours:
– 23 hours in bulk, then split into two balls (lightly oiled in individual plastic boxes)
– 12 hours later: re-balled without oil
– 16 hours later: re-balled without oil
– 19 hours later: out of the fridge

2 hours warming to room temp on parchment paper (bad idea, it stuck), covered.
Dough was very soft, I carefully shaped it by hand on semolina.

Stone on the lowest rack.
Oven pre-heated (top and bottom heat) for 30 min until highest temp reached plus 2 hours for the stone. I didn’t open the door during those 2h 30m.
Stone temp: 290ºC / 554ºF
Oven ceiling temp: 340ºC / 644ºF
The temperatures are the same as when I pre-heated for 75 minutes. I will try a shorter pre-heat next time and see if I get the same results.

FIRST PIZZA:
– Salchichón ibérico (kind of a Spanish pepperoni).
– Fresh dried buffalo mozzarella.
– Sauce: Mutti canned tomatoes cooked for 30 min with garlic, salt, sugar, black pepper and oak aged sherry vinegar.
After 5 minutes with oven heat on (top and bottom) the cheese was getting too dry so I switched top heat off.
This one was the best one so far. Crispier and juicier than previous attempts. The meat protected the cheese so it didn't dry too much while the top crust got time to brown properly.

I let the stone heat up (top and bottom heat) for 10 minutes before the next pizza.

SECOND PIZZA:
– Sun-dried tomatoes (in oil), black olives, capers and fresh basil.
– Same cheese and sauce.
Cooked for 7 minutes with only bottom heat on.
This one could have benefited from a bit more heat on the top, although the cheese was less protected by the toppings and could not have handled it.

QUESTIONS:
– Is there a combo of cheeses that's able to resist the long cooking time and tastes as good as fresh mozzarella?
– Can I increase the juiciness of the crust by adding more water to the recipe?

Offline norcoscia

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Re: Tips on stone cooking technique
« Reply #23 on: January 21, 2018, 01:28:35 PM »
Looks much improved - good job mileniarista. One thing to keep in mind is the longer fermentation you did likely ate up some of the sugar you added. For that long I would have recommended 3.5 - 4% (with the flour you are using). Also, a longer fermentation can begin to impact the gluten structure in a negative way. You might want to try some shorter times to see if you like the results - also you get to eat more pizza  ;D
« Last Edit: January 21, 2018, 01:40:02 PM by norcoscia »
Norm

Offline mileniarista

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Re: Tips on stone cooking technique
« Reply #24 on: January 21, 2018, 01:38:10 PM »
Looks much improved - good job mileniarista. One thing to keep in mind is the longer fermentation you did likely ate up some of the sugar you added. For that long I would have recommended 3.5 - 4% (with the flour you are using). Also, a longer fermentation can begin to impact the gluten structure in a negative way. A 4 day CF is not long but the 19 hrs of RT fermentation in your workflow was (IMO) - everything happens faster during the RT period (I'm really surprised you did not have problems with the dough) - you might want to try some shorter times (~24-30 hrs CF with ~3-5 hour RT) to see if you like the results - also you get to eat more pizza  ;D

Thank you Norcoscia. I think I didn't express myself correctly (English is not my first language). It was 70 hours CF plus 2 hours at room temp (3 days total). Those 19 hours were part of the CF, after the last re-balling. I'll try 48 hours CF next time, I had problems before with this but they were probably due to my lack of experience handling the dough.

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Offline norcoscia

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Re: Tips on stone cooking technique
« Reply #25 on: January 21, 2018, 01:41:00 PM »
Yes, sorry I edited my post - it was my fault, your english is fine - not much sleep last night.
Norm

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: Tips on stone cooking technique
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2018, 02:09:48 PM »

QUESTIONS:
– Is there a combo of cheeses that's able to resist the long cooking time and tastes as good as fresh mozzarella?
– Can I increase the juiciness of the crust by adding more water to the recipe?

Nice improvements!
I think you could skip that elaborate reball procedure. If you want to reball, just doing it the night before your bake should be sufficient.

As for your questions, for fresh mozz, IMO no, at least not on a retail level. It seems to perform best with 4 minute bakes and under. Although some of the commercial fresh mozzarellas seem like they can withstand a LOT more abuse. Grande fresh mozz on NY pies comes to mind. Running the broiler will break down fresh mozz even quicker in my experience.

For your second question, you can experiment with more water or more oil.

Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: Tips on stone cooking technique
« Reply #27 on: January 21, 2018, 02:43:07 PM »
Nice work. I would stick with how you did the first one.

How did they taste? How’s was the crust?
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline mileniarista

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Re: Tips on stone cooking technique
« Reply #28 on: January 21, 2018, 03:06:29 PM »
I think you could skip that elaborate reball procedure. If you want to reball, just doing it the night before your bake should be sufficient.

You're probably right. At this point I don't really know what I'm doing, I'm just trying different things and see what they do.

How did they taste? How’s was the crust?

I was expecting a bit more flavor from the long fermentation. Although it might be hidden by the sauce, too seasoned for my liking. I'd like to start experimenting with growing my own starter in the look for a more interesting fermentation character. The texture was way better than my previous attempts, crispier and juicier. I like to feel the semolina and I like the way it looks, but I'll try to reduce that effect in the next pizzas, maybe mixing it with flour?

Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: Tips on stone cooking technique
« Reply #29 on: January 21, 2018, 03:26:16 PM »

I was expecting a bit more flavor from the long fermentation. Although it might be hidden by the sauce, too seasoned for my liking. I'd like to start experimenting with growing my own starter in the look for a more interesting fermentation character. The texture was way better than my previous attempts, crispier and juicier. I like to feel the semolina and I like the way it looks, but I'll try to reduce that effect in the next pizzas, maybe mixing it with flour?

I started growing my levain and making pizza with it because I wanted more flavor in the crust.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

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Offline mileniarista

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Re: Tips on stone cooking technique
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2018, 03:37:20 PM »
I started growing my levain and making pizza with it because I wanted more flavor in the crust.

I "rescued" an old starter from the freezer I had made some months ago. It was never very active. I made starters 4 or 5 times but never got a bread baking routine and they didn't evolve to it's full potential. Maybe pizzamaking is an excuse to develop a nicer one. Sourdough bread was too much of a hassle for me to do it on a regular basis.

Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: Tips on stone cooking technique
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2018, 05:48:02 PM »
I "rescued" an old starter from the freezer I had made some months ago. It was never very active. I made starters 4 or 5 times but never got a bread baking routine and they didn't evolve to it's full potential. Maybe pizzamaking is an excuse to develop a nicer one. Sourdough bread was too much of a hassle for me to do it on a regular basis.

Feed it 1:1:1 (levain, flour, water) for a couple weeks every 12 hours or until it can do this.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=49830.0
Refrigerate it with a fresh feed. Refresh and feed once a week.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline Essen1

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Re: Tips on stone cooking technique
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2018, 06:11:55 PM »
I "rescued" an old starter from the freezer I had made some months ago. It was never very active. I made starters 4 or 5 times but never got a bread baking routine and they didn't evolve to it's full potential. Maybe pizzamaking is an excuse to develop a nicer one. Sourdough bread was too much of a hassle for me to do it on a regular basis.

Here's one that is easy to maintain and yields exceptional results in pizza dough. Very potent, though.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10702.0
Mike

“All styles of pizza are valid. I make the best I’m capable of; you should make the best you’re capable of. I don’t want to make somebody else’s pizza.” ~ Chris Bianco

Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: Tips on stone cooking technique
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2018, 06:41:19 PM »
If you want to start new here is another option
https://www.kingarthurflour.com/recipes/sourdough-starter-recipe
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline mileniarista

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Re: Tips on stone cooking technique
« Reply #34 on: January 22, 2018, 05:40:31 AM »
The raisins science project looks cool; I'll start one today with locally grown dry prunes and maybe blend it with the other one I have, which was made with flour.

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Offline ElRonno

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Re: Tips on stone cooking technique
« Reply #35 on: January 22, 2018, 07:38:52 AM »
I'm not sure what the problem is here. I've used a stone yesterday that was heated only 1 hour at 300C with the top and bottom elements on. Threw in the pizza and switched on the grill. No steel plates or anything. The dough swelled up like a balloon, picture taken after 3 minutes, total baking time 3,5 to 4 minutes.

It's a 65% hydration yeast dough from Caputo flour.24h poolish, 24h cold bulk fermentation, reball, 8h room fermentation.
"If no one has told you yet today, you deserve endless amounts of pizza and love, and you have a great butt."

Offline mileniarista

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Re: Tips on stone cooking technique
« Reply #36 on: January 22, 2018, 07:46:57 AM »
I'm not sure what the problem is here. I've used a stone yesterday that was heated only 1 hour at 300C with the top and bottom elements on. Threw in the pizza and switched on the grill. No steel plates or anything. The dough swelled up like a balloon, picture taken after 3 minutes, total baking time 3,5 to 4 minutes.

It's a 65% hydration yeast dough from Caputo flour.24h poolish, 24h cold bulk fermentation, reball, 8h room fermentation.

Hi ElRonno, if your oven says 300ºC on the dial the stone will be probably hotter than that. My stone heats up to 290ºC without the broiler but my dial reads 250ºC. Do you have a IR thermometer to check your stone temp?

Offline ElRonno

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Re: Tips on stone cooking technique
« Reply #37 on: January 22, 2018, 08:01:15 AM »
Do you have a IR thermometer to check your stone temp?
This was at a friends house and unfortunately I didn't have my IR thermometer with me. I'll try to measure it next time I go there.
"If no one has told you yet today, you deserve endless amounts of pizza and love, and you have a great butt."

Offline vtsteve

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Re: Tips on stone cooking technique
« Reply #38 on: January 22, 2018, 10:04:21 AM »
I'm not sure what the problem is here. I've used a stone yesterday that was heated only 1 hour at 300C with the top and bottom elements on. Threw in the pizza and switched on the grill. No steel plates or anything. The dough swelled up like a balloon, picture taken after 3 minutes, total baking time 3,5 to 4 minutes.

It's a 65% hydration yeast dough from Caputo flour.24h poolish, 24h cold bulk fermentation, reball, 8h room fermentation.

Is it literally balloon-like (giant internal void like a pita)?

From the outside, your only problem looks like "too much dough/too small for the dough weight". You may have been oversizing your doughs to compensate for less-than-optimal oven spring. What was the dough weight and final diameter?
In grams we trust.
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Offline Essen1

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Re: Tips on stone cooking technique
« Reply #39 on: January 22, 2018, 11:14:57 AM »
The raisins science project looks cool; I'll start one today with locally grown dry prunes and maybe blend it with the other one I have, which was made with flour.

I wouldn't blend them together. Certain cultures don't do well with others.
Mike

“All styles of pizza are valid. I make the best I’m capable of; you should make the best you’re capable of. I don’t want to make somebody else’s pizza.” ~ Chris Bianco

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