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Author Topic: Lucali; has anyone come close?  (Read 91375 times)

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Offline PizzaJerk

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Re: Lucali; has anyone come close?
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2017, 09:09:03 PM »
57.5% water
1.5% oil

I want to make a batch of dough with no oil I just haven't got around to it
This is my regular NY dough

Any added sugar of any kind?

Offline thezaman

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Re: Lucali; has anyone come close?
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2017, 10:15:14 AM »
you dough texture is right on. your bake is a little darker. did you try to mimic their sauce? it has garlic in it and it is not heavy handed with the garlic. it is also added to the dough hot. man that pizza looks delicious.

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Lucali; has anyone come close?
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2017, 10:51:38 AM »
Gianni..I love that...Are there two kinds of cheese on there..A bit of WMM  and fresh mozz?

Offline Gianni5

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Re: Lucali; has anyone come close?
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2017, 02:48:50 PM »
Thank you guys
It's grande whole milk mozz and a little buffala mozz as well
I didn't try to mimic the sauce.  I'm gonna try one more time with a dough without oil and I'll try to mimic the sauce this time

Offline thezaman

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Re: Lucali; has anyone come close?
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2017, 05:15:39 PM »
one other thing i think they do is add hard cheese post bake

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Offline justazaguy

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Re: Lucali; has anyone come close?
« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2017, 09:14:57 PM »
yes, they shred low moisture mozz into thin long pieces, add torn chunks of buffalo mozz, and top with reggiano (post-bake).

How did you accomplish a better browning this time around?

Have you considered using low diastatic malt powder?

Offline Gianni5

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Re: Lucali; has anyone come close?
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2017, 03:27:49 PM »
 No oil or sugar in the dough this time. I also tried to get the sauce a little closer by cooking some garlic in olive oil then adding san marzanos. It was delicious but not sure how close it is to Lucali's.

Offline thezaman

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Re: Lucali; has anyone come close?
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2017, 04:46:15 PM »
 looks pretty close. you are achieving better color then they get. their dough is not same day, or a least at his brothers place. last visit he took lou and i into his prep room showed us dough in different stages of development. the dough he was using that night had those black specs that you get with older dough.   

 what oven do you use hi heat electric? 

 

Offline invertedisdead

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Re: Lucali; has anyone come close?
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2017, 05:15:09 PM »
looks pretty close. you are achieving better color then they get. their dough is not same day, or a least at his brothers place. last visit he took lou and i into his prep room showed us dough in different stages of development. the dough he was using that night had those black specs that you get with older dough.   

 what oven do you use hi heat electric?

The black specs are from oxidation, right?
the proof is in the pizza

Offline Georgev

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Re: Lucali; has anyone come close?
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2017, 03:33:00 PM »
That last pie looks really close. what yeast did you use? fresh or instant? .35%?

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HarryHaller73

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Re: Lucali; has anyone come close?
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2017, 10:21:34 PM »
The black specs are from oxidation, right?

Black spots are dead yeast.  You can get that with diastatic malt powder which is steroids for yeast to accelerate consumption or very long cold ferments.

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Lucali; has anyone come close?
« Reply #31 on: February 27, 2017, 11:07:53 PM »
Wow, looks like you're getting very close. That cross section is a lot like what the side of a lucali pie looks like.

What was your thickness factor?

I was at Lucali tonight. It's still top two of the pies I've ever had..it was really excellent.

The lucali pie is 16". Not the rumored 24, or 20, or even 18". This one was definitely closer to 16". Perfect for two people. It was also not as thin as I remember, but the slices were very sturdy! No tip sag for a 3 minute bake, and the mozzarella was cooked PERFECTLY.

The only thing that's missing in that pizza master bake is those unique bubbles in the cornicione.

I would say 1) stick with that 3 minute bake. Your bottom and crust color looked really close to what I had tonight. 2) reduce the TF but roll evenly? Maybe 0.07 rolled evenly with a pin. I think your hydration was pretty close in that last one.

The thing about the lucali pie is...even when the slice is cold (I had leftovers I just ate,) the cornicione is still CRUNCHY. Not even crispy. Not soggy, not spongy...but CRUNCHY on a cold pie. That has to be a lower hydration?

Also, the post oven shredded (not grated) parmigiano is key for flavor

« Last Edit: February 27, 2017, 11:10:36 PM by hotsawce »

Offline rparker

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Re: Lucali; has anyone come close?
« Reply #32 on: February 28, 2017, 07:54:13 AM »
Gianni5, your efforts look very nice. I wish I could try either yours or theirs. Well, both.

Larry, is this what you were leaning towards on another thread at first?

hotsawce, I was quite surprised to hear you say it was crunchy. Even on the bottom crust? Well, you said no tip sag. Probably clear enough. Certainly have my interest piqued.

All trumps, for me, has an uncanny ability to remain crunchy, chewy, flat instead of tip dip and still be easy on the tooth and not tough. I can't get there yet with FS yet. 

This is pathetic. I feel like I'm asking creepily obsessed questions, like "and what was she wearing?". I digress.

What affect does making the skins, rolling them out "and left to sit until ready to use." have on the dough and final product? I can imagine it, of course, having to be in a floured state. Perhaps that is a huge part of the color and appearance? I also imagine that if it is sitting around, gluten getting warmer and such, that it might be lifting big around the cornicione and deflating because it didn't have enough strength to keep it from expanding a lot to begin with, and then not enough to keep it inflated later in the bake. 

Reading all of this again and again, especially the black specs, I keep wondering about an iced water dough. Those black specs are a lot quicker to happen for me when I do an Iced Water method. Some texture seems to be translating internally as well, but cannot describe how.

A different take on the garlic is to add it very late to the sauce. I know not optimal solution commercially. I micro-plane (grate) 1/2 med-sm clove into my sauce 1/2 hour or so pre-bake. I get the garlic flavor, but it does not take over the sauce.  (1/2 clove for 135g - 175g of sauce)  I do that for all my sauce ingredients. I never kill my tomato flavor anymore. Late garlic was probably the biggest improvement of it all for me. I wonder if their adding garlic method to the skin has a similar effect?


Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Lucali; has anyone come close?
« Reply #33 on: February 28, 2017, 08:29:12 AM »
Is that a side of sauce for dipping that I see in the shot under the pie, Lou?

Offline thezaman

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Re: Lucali; has anyone come close?
« Reply #34 on: February 28, 2017, 11:20:38 AM »
Lou, since we know that the old dough is used at times so same day dough is not always served, hydration might be the key. although you probanly see same day more a lucalis then his brother place since lucali is busier. it seems that low hydrated same day gives you that crispy dough. there is no webbing in the end crust is there? it could be same day or extended with low cooler temps. not allowing a lot of development. Dom DeMarco was his model pizza maker when he started. and the dough in Doms pizza is said to be same day.i think Gianni is really close add some shredded hard cheese post bake and he could be close. small problem ,his dough looks a little better developed and probably has a better finished product.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 11:58:09 AM by thezaman »

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HarryHaller73

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Re: Lucali; has anyone come close?
« Reply #35 on: February 28, 2017, 11:40:19 AM »
Wow, looks like you're getting very close. That cross section is a lot like what the side of a lucali pie looks like.

What was your thickness factor?

I was at Lucali tonight. It's still top two of the pies I've ever had..it was really excellent.

The lucali pie is 16". Not the rumored 24, or 20, or even 18". This one was definitely closer to 16". Perfect for two people. It was also not as thin as I remember, but the slices were very sturdy! No tip sag for a 3 minute bake, and the mozzarella was cooked PERFECTLY.

The only thing that's missing in that pizza master bake is those unique bubbles in the cornicione.

I would say 1) stick with that 3 minute bake. Your bottom and crust color looked really close to what I had tonight. 2) reduce the TF but roll evenly? Maybe 0.07 rolled evenly with a pin. I think your hydration was pretty close in that last one.

The thing about the lucali pie is...even when the slice is cold (I had leftovers I just ate,) the cornicione is still CRUNCHY. Not even crispy. Not soggy, not spongy...but CRUNCHY on a cold pie. That has to be a lower hydration?

Also, the post oven shredded (not grated) parmigiano is key for flavor

I've watched them make pies.  It looked like NY dough (55-58%) and they use a ton of bench flour, but no oil, has an elastic stretch, every roll of the dough keeps springing back and looks so cumbersome, and then they knuckle stretch.  They use All Trumps,  long fermented to get you big airy bubbles even tho it's rolled flat.  Some of their pies even end up looking like wheel barrow tires.  If I'd guess a TF, I'd think 0.08 TF, and pressed down tight with a pin or wine bottle as the case may be.  Once baked, their pizza slices fold.  t's thinner than a normal slice, but definitely thicker than a Joe and Pats.  Extended ferment and the crunch and lift at the rims is the oven at 700 deg + baked 3 minutes or so and the weak gluten.  The rims puff & lift like tortillas on a griddle and then stick there as opposed to drooping as the rim dries from high heat.  As I've said in other threads about other pizzerias, it's the oven that does most of the work along with proofing method and technique.

The pizza between the rims toward the center is moist and soft.  They use super wet sauce, there is a ton of steam.  I mentioned no oil cos we had leftovers packed and the crust was dead later.  Does not travel.  Also tried it in Miami, tastes different.  More crackery.


« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 12:54:15 PM by HarryHaller73 »

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Lucali; has anyone come close?
« Reply #36 on: February 28, 2017, 12:07:36 PM »
That is extra sauce for dipping crust. Good eye  ;D. Can't go to Lucali and not get a side of that awesome sauce!

58% Hydration is probably close. 0.08TF would be a little much...that's like Beddia. TF. 0.07 is probably were it's at. I didn't see them stretch the dough. Springing back sounds like typical all trumps gluten...maybe it's mixed intensely. I know when the hydration was very low at the beginning it was a huge issue rolling out the dough.

Either way, excellent pie. Even if it's a poorly made dough and it's not developed properly...it tastes incredible. I would test at home but there's no way I can replicate that 3 minute bake.

Harry- The pizza between the center and the rim for our pie last night was crisp. We could fold it with no sag, almost like a NY slice. I think you're theory to the hot sauce causing a softer center may be true. The side sauce we got on the side was barely warm....and it's the same sauce they put on the pizza. No hot sauce might mean no soft center in this case? The texture of the crust was excellent. We were both surprised how well it folded and held up.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 12:19:00 PM by hotsawce »

HarryHaller73

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Re: Lucali; has anyone come close?
« Reply #37 on: February 28, 2017, 12:14:15 PM »
That is extra sauce for dipping crust. Good eye  ;D. Can't go to Lucali and not get a side of that awesome sauce!

58% Hydration is probably close. 0.08TF would be a little much...that's like Beddia. TF. 0.07 is probably were it's at. I didn't see them stretch the dough. Springing back sounds like typical all trumps gluten...maybe it's mixed intensely. I know when the hydration was very low at the beginning it was a huge issue rolling out the dough.

Either way, excellent pie. Even if it's a poorly made dough and it's not developed properly...it tastes incredible. I would test at home but there's no way I can replicate that 3 minute bake.

I agree, it's a tasty pizza they definitely use top shelf ingredients.  imo, 0.08 TF will be thinner than Beddia if you roll it with a bottle first.   You're compressing the dough and the wet sauce viscosity and the cheese kills any rise in the middle.  Crumb structure in the middle is tight.

It's "poorly made"  dough on purpose.  Americans associate bumps, bubbles, and "defects" as "artisan" style wheras a European baker would get fired for that.  It's something that's embedded within American psyche when it comes to food, like serving entrees on a "rustic" wood plank. 


« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 12:19:51 PM by HarryHaller73 »

Offline hotsawce

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Re: Lucali; has anyone come close?
« Reply #38 on: February 28, 2017, 12:22:07 PM »
Harry,

It didn't "eat" like a dense 0.08 TF though. Honestly, to my taste it was a little thinner than a typical NY slice. It is definitely thicker than a Rubirosa or Joe and Pat's pie, without a doubt.

But then again, I was told the dough balls are one pound. And the pie was 16"...which is that 0.08 TF. Wish I had a dough ball to weigh!

HarryHaller73

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Re: Lucali; has anyone come close?
« Reply #39 on: February 28, 2017, 12:43:32 PM »
Harry,

It didn't "eat" like a dense 0.08 TF though. Honestly, to my taste it was a little thinner than a typical NY slice. It is definitely thicker than a Rubirosa or Joe and Pat's pie, without a doubt.

But then again, I was told the dough balls are one pound. And the pie was 16"...which is that 0.08 TF. Wish I had a dough ball to weigh!

Could have something to do with a long cold ferment, it changes the texture and mouth feel.  I also think they open cold doughs.  I could see it in the dough color and sheen. 
 
« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 01:06:07 PM by HarryHaller73 »

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